I'll Now call to order this regular meeting of the Jersey City Historic preservation commission it is January 8th at about 6:33 p.m. please be advised in accordance with the open public meetings act the notice of the time date and place of this regularly scheduled meeting of the Jersey City Historic preservation commission has been sent to the Jersey journal the Jersey City Reporter and Ellis besito on Friday January 5th same notice has been sent to the city clerk for posting on the bulletin board outside the cl's office in City Hall and on the Jersey City website I have proof of this notice and evidence Iris if we could mark it B1 is evidence thank you right we'll move to a roll call commissioner amuso is absent commissioner griga here commissioner samp here commissioner Gunther here commissioner Lewis is absent commissioner sakong here commissioner blazak here commissioner Cronin here Vice chair Gucci here and chairman Gordon present okay there are eight members of the Commission in attendance five affirmative votes are needed for a certificate of appropriateness uh we have no minutes on tonight's agenda to approve for correspondents um all application materials are linked on tonight's agenda um we also have copies of the agenda in the back of the room for any members of the public who would like a copy as well as QR codes to scan to get it on your phone um moving on to announcements case 11a the demolition review for 205 12th Street has requested to carry to the February HPC meeting so that they can prepare to present to the HPC so we will not be hearing that case tonight and then I have a couple of just general announcements since it is our first time in person um welcome back in person um just for the record the the um like I said agendas are in the back of the room public Wi-Fi is available by going clicking on public Wi-Fi under the options available you do have to accept the terms and conditions um bathrooms are around the corner and I think that is just all the general room announcements um if anyone has a hard time hearing or anything like that feel free to let me know um then that covers that all right open public comment if there are any members of the public in attendance who would like to speak regarding matters of historic preservation that are not on tonight's agenda um please approach the public comment mic at the front of the room staff sees no members of the public present and recommends a motion to open and close public comment motion second all in favor I hi all right we have no old business on tonight's agenda so we can call the first case under new business all right alcohol case h23 d170 the applicant is Nelson Benavides ra on behalf of Michael and Lauren buroughs owners the address is 2117 Pavonia Avenue uh in the Hamilton Park historic district this application is for certificate of appropriateness for the construction of a three-story rear Edition facade restoration and interior Renovations of the floor uh in a at a contri meting altered three-story italianate influenced Renaissance Revival row house built circuit 1875 Nelson you should be good to go we just have to swear you win please raise your right hand do you swear that the testimony will provide this evening will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth please State your full name by your last Nelson benus b v d s and your address pleas 3618 Street Jersey City newers thank you witness Nelson can you just turn on your mic okay that way we pick you up on the recording all right um You should be good to go actually before you go staff notes that Nelson Has previously been qualified as an expert in the field of architecture in front of this board many times thank you good evening good to see you all again in person uh this is 217 Pavonia street is the 1938 tax photo um showing its previous condition um and through some research and site evidence it appears that this is the consistent for the condition for that historic building um there Happ to be three additional buildings in that block um that have the same detail sh here this is the current condition so it's been um highly altered um most of the detailing has been removed the stoop was removed um The Parlor floor Windows uh were shortened and the original entry was um reduced to a window um the project sits between Erie Street and Manila uh on Pavonia Avenue um it's kind of a short block um it's the rear yards only visible from a small section on 8th Street and I'll refer to some of those photographs uh that are highlighted here later um the current site essentially is just a the original townhouse and a small addition has already been removed um that was in the rear yard uh so and there are two addition uh sorry the Json properties have two rear yard additions as well um which are shown here this is the proposed site plan for the project we're proposing a two-story plus a basement rear yard Edition um not extending to the full height of the original townhouse uh a one-story deck um and stairs uh down to a rear yard and there's be paving stones and stairs down to uh the basement level below the rear yard deck um the mass of the building the bulk all comply with zoning standards um within the historic district um no setbacks um um are being encroached and um the lot coverage um including the deck and rear yard Edition all comply these are the proposed plans it's going to be a single family home um currently it's uh it's four family it's been essentially gutted um and I believe there was a previous application that was presented to this uh board a few years ago to keep it as a for family um the new owners uh would prefer to do it as a single family so the basement plan is uh is going to include a family room a bedroom and a bathroom and just some general storage area on the first floor we have the origin uh the original townhouse is being preserved um with the new stoop being restored to The Parlor floor level uh and in the addition will include a a large kitchen and reard deck and on the second floor in the addition we're doing two bedrooms um this is a 22 foot wide lot um so essentially it allows for two you know normal siiz bedrooms in the rear yard uh Edition and the another one bedroom in the main part of the original townhouse and on the top floor essenti be a master suite with a small roof deck over the new rard edition and no rooftop on the townhouse is proposed this is the existing condition of the sorry of the facade and the proposed facade essentially restores um there's big color shift U between my screen and this screen so I'll explain the colors you're planning for a mauve faade right um so we're restoring um the full soup um the entry doors and the original um entry uh doorway entry opening um we're enlarging The Parlor floor Windows um and all the windows would be at 2 over two and all W um the brick work is going to be restored um the the existing lentils are essentially a soldier lentil um originally we thought it was missing had been basically stucked or um removed but with additional research we realized that it isn't there um so we will be you know basically repointing them using existing um Soldier uh lentils and the uh there's an iron work applique that goes over the windows IND doors um and we also plan on restoring that as well um and that would be in a c cast iron um if it's possible um we're researching it or if not we' have to come up with another material that is suitable and durable um to mimic that material the proposed colors are um it's a Lafayette uh sorry not Yorktown green for the cornice a very dark dark green um the adjacent properties also have a green tone to their cornice um so we're planning on you know highlighting it differently but essentially keeping it within that um that uh that tone um the windows as well would REM remain would be a um Yorktown green and the door entry doors would be mahogany um and an the stoop would be a brownstone mimic along with the water table and the base um this is the existing condition of the rear yard facade Nelson may I ask you some questions about the facade before you go through everything just while fresh in my mind if you wouldn't mind um so I I think you said two over two in your presentation but they're actually one over one yes sorry yes I one over one yes no divided lights um in this based on 1938 photograph and you did mention that the decorative elements um at the lentils would be cast iron if possible but your application says that they're com you know they're a resin but that's what we're researching to see if it is possible to do it in a iron right which is I would imagine the commission's going to prefer that as I don't think we've ever done resin details so hopefully you can find what you need right but yeah yes we've been looking um unfortunately like the stock items that are available for all these metal work cataloges right none of them match the scale of this right um so that's where we're looking with iron workers to see if they would be able to do this gotcha and my I think my last comment uh to actually the doors I think in the 19 38 photo it looks like a single door did you notice that it's really a dark photograph cuz I'm looking at the width of the of the opening and I'm looking at how wide the glass is and it looks like it might be a single door yeah when we reviewed it with mat we looked at the the double door cu the other tow houses have the same opening right in that masonry and it was double door I was surprised it looks like single and I was surprised to see it as single so I would just say take a closer look at that and um you said something about the brown you g use use the word in the brown Stu a mimic what does that mean um it's instead of using tinted concrete mimic is actually crushed Brownstone okay in a mix okay um it has that Fleck to it so it has that mineral Fleck okay got it thank you so back to the elevation so the the rear yard the rear yard doesn't follow the typical um adjacent property um openings this this building was modified um to this window pattern which is atypical for this block uh so and there re sorry I'll just show you and so the proposed um elevation shown here uh essentially we're proposing you know side brick Piers um for the party wall um uh a Hardy Board Siding that's going to be smooth um in a peer finish uh and then essentially clad Windows um which would be in a casement style um for the addition uh we have an epe wood deck with um metal railings and on the roof deck uh we also have the metal railings and on the townhouse uh we are enlarging the top floor uh Windows um to create um the two doorways um the three three door panels that you see there fall in line with the three Windows uh sorry the paired Windows plus the third window the smaller window that was already modified and we're essentially uh enlarging that to one large opening this is the proposed section um showing the original toan housee Plus in the rear yard Edition and the rear yard deck and stairs down this is the current photo of the rear yard and so this going back to the block and lot um the following photographs will show you the visibility from 8th Street this is the maximum sorry the where the view where you do not see the townhouse at all um the adjacent property to on further to the West is the white building you see um and this is when this is now the other section where you you start to see um the 217 Pavonia uh and then this is the full view of 27 Pavonia from 8th Street it's very limited and that's basically the three windows that you see the top in the red again I apologize for the color shift but this is essentially the the pallet for the project um we have the you know the red brick we have a peer finish on a Hardy Plank and smooth finish painted cornice um painted windows and um mahogany doors and black metal and that concludes my presentation for this project be happy to answer any questions um you had also mentioned that the rear of the building is staying intact meaning below the top floor you're leaving the openings in the original building as is we're keeping the masonry wall we're enlarging the openings within the building you are so so they so those openings will change yes they'll be behind the uh extension yes okay and the other question I had is about the front where you obviously have a parking space but there's also entry Under the Stairs how are you handling the entry Under the Stairs yeah I could show you actually I'll go to the construction drawings I have a bit of a detail on that that might make more sense to explain so what you have here is the section of the stoop um so we're restoring you know recreating the stoop um with traditional townhouse with the stair underneath um and then if you look at the plan uh B have a you know three steps down to a landing and then entering the stoop got it that's clear thank you um we also creating a planting area on the side um because we on the the other side of the vehicle yeah to the adjacent townhouse right um because we do plan on keeping the know the parking in place um and the railing is um it matches the you know the 1938 photograph and the adjacent property uh one of the properties has the the iron work in place thank you hi Nelson I have a question yes um The Parlor floor windows I noticed on the rendering and the drawings that there appears to be a gap between the Sills and the water table yes as opposed to them sort of resting on top of it is yeah not sure I'm looking at the tax photo and it appears that the Sills might actually touch the water table the they actually they don't um when I was there on the site if you it's essentially there's another brick layer that exists um when I looked at the other property I can go to the photograph the photograph is obviously right looks there is a a basically a brick layer but we're going to match essentially what's closest to based on the site evidence if you zoom into the um neighboring building photo you could actually see it it's like a the top Ed Ed of the coursing just behind that water table hi Nelson um I'm trying to remember I I I know this this is a very um kind of unique row with that Ornamental Iron work that's applied onto the lentils on this building I think there may have been one one that was redone like around 8 to 10 years ago and megie I don't know if you did any research or maybe Dan might remember but I thought maybe that there was one that had replaced maybe not all of them but done a casting and replaced at least some of them something like 8 to 10 years ago if I if I recall ironically you are thinking of this building they had an approval from this board from 2016 where they proposed to replace all of them yeah cuz I as part of yeah I'm sorry to cut you off but as part of like a larger that addition that he mentioned that was taken down in the back that was part of this 2016 approval okay and so there were none there were then there were none present at before that then okay yeah because I've also looked at the two other buildings that have some of the evidence that's there and none of them are complete one house that has it it's pretty you know it's it's in disrepair yeah I I would just add to that if we're going to allow resin on the building that would probably a be a first and that we should really do it consciously if we're going to make that decision to to allow that to happen because that's kind of a a a new standard that we're setting I think do you have any you don't have a sample or any sort of example of what that would what the differences would be between that and not at the moment yeah okay and I just I also had a couple questions maybe on the rear ad um um I have the construction drawings up and on A4 there's a photo of the rear rear yard facade current condition and I'm I'm not even necessarily worried about the visibility I think you demonstrated it's going to be very minimally visible it's a gap view it's very small but I think on this A4 it's uh top left photo 7 rear facade current condition you said that this is kind of the only one that's this configuration of the top floor but it just it looks like uh on the neighboring building to the right there's a similar condition where the fire escape is at the top floor and then there's two paired Windows there mhm so my my only concern is and I think lately we've maybe been a little bit uh we've been allowing a lot more changes than some that I'm always comfortable with on the top floor of the rear facade I think the three story editions generally I think this is very appropriate project like I said minimally visible Gap views I'm a little I'm a little uncomfortable with the changes to the windows at the rear facad though I think your your point of well we're only kind of we're taking out the masonry in between the paired window and the window in the center there I think that's a strong argument I'm just I'm just a little cautious and I feel feel like lately we've been allowing some changes on the top floor rear facad that I've sometimes been a little bit uncomfortable with um especially when we're allowing three story additions and course for this I think there's some good very good preservation and restoration going on at at the front of the building but this is something I'm calling attention to you don't have any photos of any of the of the rear facad in this road do you uh not with me or part of the drawing set um I think the previous one of the site photographs I did include yeah the adjacent sorry show there yeah and I'm more concerned because I think once you get um if you're on Pavonia and once you get further this is the end of this row right is the building immediately yeah from the bank on Marin Manila or Marin I always forget uh that's Manila Mana from Manila after the Bank building there is a large gap but you cannot see this building yeah cuz it's really it's over you know 800 fet away I'm not even really worried about the The View I think I think my point is from I think it might be something like 211 or I forget where it is it's I think 211 to 217 maybe are this row where there there's the these are kind of unusual buildings and they have the supplied um iron work on them um so I'd just be curious what the other rear facades of this the that particular row look like [Music] um you talking about the rear guard facade at the rear facade the rear facade yeah yeah both both properties next door have the addition um I think then the last house yeah if you look at this side on 217 so two 213 two yeah two 215 has the addition 213 does not have an addition those are the three tow houses that appear to be the same once you hit 211 that is the more historical townhouse more ornate townhouse that has the arched windows and the the cast iron heads that are more decorative and I think it does have the same Cornus though right yeah they all have the same corus it's like that that four is kind of like this mini row that's kind of unique within this block so I guess my only point is is that I just want to be sure we're not changing if if is's a consistent pattern of the top floor of the rear facades of this row considering that they're all the same uh from 211 to 217 I just want to be sure that I'm comfortable and the commission's comfortable with with the change and if it there isn't a consistent pattern I'd be fine with the the changes as is and we're often fine with lowering a window and putting in a door that that's that's fine with me it's it's more just a com com combination of those two window windows at the uh when you're looking at the rivot the top left so that that's all that really has my concern on on this project out of the whole scope so okay I don't know if anyone else has any comments on that just a question is it are you treating that top floor as brick yes yeah so it's going to remain bricks so your view of that top floor with the exception of the railing is going to still be a brick facade yes and your the colors of your openings there I forget what you're putting on what material I know clad yeah they're going to be Cloud doors and it would be like a dark gray a dark so so that might give you a consistent feel in terms of the view of what was there going back to that the the three photographs you never get a you each when you walk there you see barely just the the the one townhouse full on um and then you get a glimps of the next townhouse of their first window right so there's no pattern that we really can can see okay and and like you said you're you're um it's if you're looking at the rear facade you're just kind of combining the openings of the that Center window with the two windows on the left exactly okay yes I'm I'm a little bit confused as to what's happening on the on the front facade brick as it is today are the are the grout lines painted they're painted yes over exist actual grout lines or yeah the brick is there and it's in place it's basically been painted red and with a white line it was done a lot uh all over town this was there became customed to paint them red and paint the lines white even with a shadow line sometimes yeah it's it's it's it's so wacky yeah that's why the lentils you know appears to be that there's a steel lentil supporting you know flat brick but the soldier brick is there so the so two question on the brick so cuz you know I'm just noticing the in the surrounding buildings you can see you know every six or seven courses the header course um whereas I think it's just like common Bond whereas in the in the painted surface it just all looks like the same coursing all throughout so somebody just painted a they B just painted all red and then just put the lines as if it was there and then um originally there's so much paint it almost looks like it was stuccoed uhhuh um over and and at one point I did speak to Dan Reen about this project um and his impression was that it had a very thin parge coat ah that essentially has completely weathered away got it so that would make sense so they're they're they're painting on a on a canvas essent essentially yes not not okay um and then um the on the on the window so I can see sort of the faint traces of the soldier chorus behind um but for example in the in the window that will ultimately become the front door right um what what how what is the do you know what they use to like between the top of the window and the underside of the arch yeah how did they created that they did it as with a essentially a brick Soldier Arch no no no so so the the original Soldier Arch arches right yes um but the but the right now that lunal line is straight so what what's right right now has been infilled with what with brick oh I see just additional as far as I could tell it looks to be brick um and it's been painted got it so we don't actually know the condition of that brick exactly until we scrape away all that right guck okay okay thank you that that clarifies I I thought my eyes were going yeah this is a unique building yeah oh sorry and one final thing um the um the the jams of the not jams what what the the sides of the masonry openings appear um yeah they're ped yeah so like are the are the bricks basically shaped at each it looks they looks like that the bricks were cut okay so at the head and at the at the sides got it and the head is level or is it angle no it's level it's level so there's a bevel to it but the soldier um runs there's a the soldier runs but the but there's a bevel to The Brick but the on the on the at the head at the head got it that's very interesting mm I don't know that I've I've um seen or appreciated this particular detail in Jersey City it's it's it's very um it's it's it's quite interesting anyway thank you for the clarifications any other questions comments all right Nelson does that conclude your testimony that concludes it all right beautiful right if there are any members of the public present who would like to comment regarding this application you can approach the public comment microphone staff sees no members of the public present and recommends a motion to open and close public comment motion second all in favor I hi hi all all right moving into staff comments give me just a moment to put this up on the screen so I do agree with you Stephen that the preference is cast iron here admittedly I did completely miss that on the plans um so Nelson if you guys would accept that I would like to put a condition on this that you guys will um that the preference is cast iron and you'll explore yes yes I agreed to that okay um regarding the front door so we went through all the tax cards for this block and this is the only one with a single front door my assumption is that that's a replacement um these buildings were 1870 this at the time of that photo would have been about 70 years that front door replacement would make sense sense so um they're following the design of the rest of the buildings on the Block for the doors I really don't take any issues with that um those are my two staff comments in addition to the staff memo um which I have up on the screen I'll scroll down to comments um we do think that this is an appropriate project the addition size is very similar to what we see commonly proposed throughout the historic districts and on this block it matches almost an exact size to 219 Pavonia which is more visible than this one um so we don't think that that's going to have an adverse effect on the historic district um we recommend that the commission approve a certificate of appropriateness with uh conditions the one that was read into the record regarding cast uh the cast iron lentils as well as those the standard conditions in the staff report I'm happy to take any questions from any commissioners and if there are none again the recommendation for a motion is approval of certificate of appropriateness with conditions motion second okay I'll do a roll call vote um commissioner Gunther I I commissioner blazak I commissioner samp I uh commissioner griga I commissioner Cronin I commissioner sakong I Vice chair Guera I and chairman Gordon I Basia there are eight votes in favor none against no extensions the COA with conditions is approved thank you thanks thanks good to see you okay so we can move on on the agenda guys give me just a second I can put this up on the screen just not going to worry about your dis ones I am going to okay should be good all right um table cases I have no update on the French American Academy I did send them an email they've been on here um for almost two years at this point so um we're going to try to see what they can do here um as I said earlier during announcements the applicant for 205 12th Street I believe that's supposed to be 15th Street but doesn't make a difference it's going to be list on the agenda again um they are going to be appearing at the next HPC meeting my understanding is that they're not actually going to be refuting that the building has significance they just want to show the commission what they have planned um they have a I don't remember if they have a planning board application filed or if they have the intention of filing one but they would like to show you how they're planning on incorporating that building into their planning board application um so just a question if they actually did that would would they even need our approval then no okay um I did explain for what it's worth not to not that I don't want you guys to comment on it I did explain to the applicant that by delaying to the next meeting all that did was cause a month of no delay of no action on their permit and if they had no intention of following through on their demo permit to just let us take action on it tonight and then they could work with staff as is common um um they have elected to come to the next meeting and show you guys what they have planned so you guys will have full comment range on what they have planned nice so thought that would be nice um we have no resolutions to introduce or discuss no resolutions to memorialize and do not need an executive session so I believe that just leaves us with adjournment motion to adjourn second all right the time is 7:08 p.m. all in favor I all okay