we will begin the lake comoo um Workshop meeting um and just forgive me I'm just getting up my agenda here um so this is the workshop meeting to discuss once I look at it officially um we have one discussion item under our Workshop meeting tonight it is discussion regarding an ordinance addressing storm water runoff I've invited two guests tonight um the chairperson of our planning board and uh our planning board attorney uh the chairperson Mr Joe G caloi and our planning board not attorney I'm sorry planning board engineer uh Alan P hillan Jr um to kind of talk to the council tonight about um this topic uh this is a topic that has come up uh at our Council meetings very recently but it's also been a topic that has been discussed at the planning board level for some time now um we did a re-evaluation of the um the master plan for Lake comoo and this was a suggestion of the planning board to have this further discussion as well among other things as the council knows we did discuss Florida area ratio which was part of that um reexamination and some other items U and this is one of those topics so um I'm going to really just outline very briefly and very in in the Raw uh the topic and then I will hand it off to um to our guests tonight um this item has been discussed on the planning board almost every situation that comes before us uh and that is how are we dealing with or how can we deal with work with storm water runoff off of private properties um as we are building homes in this town more homes in this town larger homes in this town uh how can we move forward to work with our um with our citizens uh and protect them from additional storm water runoff and um the addition of impervious surfaces so I know that uh Alan you have been conversing with uh TRW uh over the past couple of weeks on this topic um and I would turn it over to you um to the two of you to kind of Express to the council what the planning board is thinking about when it comes to storm water runoff um I would just caution that uh for some of us up here this may be a new topic um so in some of the the language that you use I um request that you be kind um so I don't know if one of you would like to begin I'll just I'm very happy to C was taking this up it's a real problem it's a problem not just in our town but in towns all over the place and it has a um has a lot of potential to affect our quality of life you know with the flooding and all I'm going to defer to Al speak he's our expert and um I know he's conferred with Drew on this and Drew on the order so great thank you um so I'm glad you guys are finally getting here I I've been doing I've been with the board since 2010 and I've been hoping for an ordinance like this since then um this is actually the only town I work in that doesn't have an ordinance like this so um you know prob that we're now here um so the purpose of this ordinance although it's kind of let's say maybe seemingly being prompted by like let's say the planning board and it was suggest Ed by the planning board through two reexamination reports um it really is intended to create a framework for development in town whether it comes before the board or not like right now the only time we really get to do anything with regard to storm water is if it comes before the board and as part of the um the criteria for the granting of a variance or variances um you know maybe doing some drainage work would be a mitigating factor and applicants either the board impresses upon the applicant or the applicant may actually offer to do um let's say some storm water mitigation through their uh project uh the idea behind the ordinance though is really for it to apply to development that really just goes for a zoning permit that you capture more than just what comes to the board I mean we see like probably 20 applications a year or something like that but how many building applications happen here in a year um so and and you know but so when they come before the board we probably have a little more latitude to kind of enforce um like say more dramatic measures you know folks that live nearby if you know this property the you know property under consideration was creating a problem neighbors are able to come to the meeting make the board aware of certain circumstances and the board can say do something about that but you have less leeway when you have it like as part of the ordinance typically at least where I've seen it is by ordinance when they come for just a zoning permit you're essentially seeking to mitigate what they're proposing like existing is existing um and that kind of Remains the Same but let's say they want to do a 20x 20 porch okay they're going to what happens with the runoff that comes from their addition not from the whole house so um and that's really like the first bite of the the Apple here really to get something on the books that you know and we're going to talk in detail in the in the draft they all have a copy of this so um you know so I you know a couple months ago Drew asked me if there was you know a couple of ordinances that you know I was with and you know I pointed them toel one which is kind of simplistic and then Spring Lake as well and actually what you have in front of you is probably more Spring Lake than it is uh and I happen to be the board engineer of both of those towns that's one of the reasons I suggested them um but there's some suggestions here that you know you can see that it's already kind of colorcoded here um there's even some more suggestions that Joe and I spoke through yesterday I feel like every time look at this I try to run through scenarios and see how like either the ordinance gets tripped up or applicants can get tripped up because really what you want to do is effectuate um storm water mitigation so that neighbors don't get inovated with storm water from a development but you don't want to create a framework such that somebody might actually be doing this like let's say a conforming addition but they can't conform to all the things of the storm water ordinance and they have to come before the planning board to get relief from the storm water ordinance you know like it feels like that's almost like the tail Wagon at thought so um that's some of the things I want to talk through tonight um I mean this is really a very good start and frankly I could probably live with it as you know it was drafted but I feel like there's some things like some mitigating factors in Lake comoo that are different than let's say what is encountered in Spring Lake Spring Lake typically has larger Lots um they have wider sidey yards they have you know uh less actually lot coverage uh so you know maybe that that's where we need to kind of think through some of these things and and um so if we want to go through maybe item by item here uh in the ordinance can I just stop you there and I'm I'm just going to ask the council if they have any questions this point we all understand what we're talking about when we talk about storm water runoff from private properties okay thank you um so if if we start at item a uh of the the handout uh the existing elevation shall not be altered by more than 18 in um through soil removal filling what have you um actually my initial question on that was you know like who's actually approving that but then after speaking with you know whether it's the zoning officer the burough engineer the planning board uh engineer like all of these different things kind of you don't you don't want to make like Drew said you want to kind of do this once and do it right and make it clear and implementable um but after speaking with Joe yesterday about this the 18 Ines is actually what's really bothering me because and I think it was bothering Joe yesterday that you know in some instances our zoning ordinance in the residential zones allows for structures to be 3T from the side Lot line if you're able to change a grade by 18 in in that 3ot sidey yard I mean I think that's just beging for for um for trouble and see the problem is when you have an ordinance or an ordinance let's say has an allowance such as this applicants will find a way to do it at 17 and half in so the ordinance doesn't apply or the you know what I mean like they'll find a way around this and you know unfortunately sometimes that's not very neighborly and we're really I mean at the end of the day this ordinance or any of these storm water ordinances in many cases are forcing people to be good neighbors that's really what it kind of boils down to they used to be ah the water's going away from my house that's all that matters except they weren't thinking about what happens to the neighbor next door or two doors down and this hopefully at least raise that awareness um formally so after Joe and I kind of work through this and read through let's say the rest of the ordinance I think I'm almost of a mind to delete item a all together because item C actually captures more of what I think item a is it's more implementable so I think like almost like C becomes a and you get rid of a all together um it looks like C and A are the same thing except a has has a a measurement and C does not yes and that's I'm afraid of the measurement because people are going to do 17 in 17 and a 12 inches and you know and they're going to say well I'm allowed to do that um what I'm I'm concerned I want to know what are the criteria to be appr because you you have to have don't you have to have some it just says here no alteration of the existing elevation of the land or to Pro grading plan shall be permitted without the approval of the engineer planning board engineer in the case of a grading plan but what what criteria are you go to apply because I in for AE from a due process standpoint doesn't there have to be some standards in the ordinance well so yes and I guess they're kind of built in there um to my mind they're built them there probably not to yours so so what a grading plan like a grading and drainage plan looks like is it's a survey of the property that has the four square the property and maybe uh some you know if there's a garage next door that's close by that'll be on the survey and then there's topography that comes with with that so you get like so you have the meats and Bounds of the property and the topography and the idea is if somebody's going to pop a house on that lot they can't alter the grade in any substantial way without it being approved so now now you're going to rely on somebody we're not going to find find who that is yet that's going to review that understand how that works and make sure that in the post condition that there's no change in grading based on that grading plan so um that's or or at least it allows the reviewer a bit of latitude to make sure that the neighbors are safeguarded by what's proposed so that's really kind of the the criteria so there's not it's not like an AB and C checklist it's kind of built into like good engineering practice that that I mean we look at these things all the time um and now currently there is no requirement for a grading plan not whatsoever so this ordinance would require a grading plan it would require grading for even for matters that didn't come before the planning board uh well we'll get to a threshold here in a minute okay but yes a grading and drainage plan if required would be to that level and and actually that might be something that we even have to enumerate in this ordinance that it needs to be you know like let's say done by a licensed you know needs to be based on a survey by a licensed um land surveyor and that the grading plan has to be done by a licensed land surveyor or landscap ar for um a licensed engineer so but recognize because people may look at you funny on this one is that you know what you just described you know could be $1,500 or $200,000 that those applicants are going to have to spend in order to achieve that requirement just that one power you know that's um you know it's it's just something to be aware of that you know they're going to incur cost um and maybe even through the review I mean if the review if there's a grading plan to be reviewed who's reviewing it if it's like somebody on staff like if you're zoning officer that's one thing but you know if the municipal engineer has to get involved there could be a cost involved there like there's it kind of snowballs a little bit um so I don't know if I answered your question if I could just throw something out would you be more comfortable if there was could that criteria be a verbal criteria so in other words the great plan that demonstrates and is approved by the town engineer approves that the uh storm M runoff will not run off the property of the netive or increase that well I I think so that's what that's what we're saying here the that's the objective right but my um I do have a question so if somebody does not need to come before the planning board they're just doing the 20 foot porch let's say are we going to require them to do the the grading plan well we'll get down to that I I like s day okay uh because there usually like most ordinances are written around it's actually in D1 um like I'm sorry D that there's like a like a a threshold gets tripped if it's an existing home they're only putting a second floor on the footprints not expanding that's no grading plant but if they're going to do X number of square feet what should that be in Spring Lake it's 750 in Belle it's 500 here I was probably more of a mind like 400 or 750 250 right I mean what what we're seeing the the tread we're seeing is that even though our lots are nothing like the Lots in Springland people aren looking at them as they are people are trying to build know basically build contents on their property with additional more than one you know not talking about a garage or a 10x10 storage shed um structures that have other uh other functions that require utilities to go to for instance um and we'll address that a little later on too but so I mean you know like so you have uh zones in uh in town that are or have like 4,000 ft Lots um and they're allowed 40% building coverage on that lot so that is a 1600 foot footprint that would be allowed on that 4,000 ft lot um you know 400 square feet would be a quarter of the allowable is that enough is it too much is it not enough you know that's the something I think that we don't need to determine tonight but you know by the same fol can think of it this way if somebody wanted to put in a onear garage that's probably on the order of 250 square ft you think they should have a dryw on a 4 you know 40 by 100 foot lot maybe they should you know like I that was what Joe and I were kind of kicking around yesterday to thinking kind of like layman's terms forget about the area think about what the structure would be I mean 10 by10 shed maybe not but a garage maybe I mean that would be fair game it's a it's a big Improvement it you know it ends up a lot of times you know I worry more about sometimes more about the rear yards than I do about the front yards you know a lot of times you have the ability to discharge storm water kind of to the front and if it gets out to the street that's always kind of like the fair game is at least if it gets to the street it's not affecting the neighbors it might assist in inating the buroughs system but um at least it's not impacting the adjacent neighbors but if it's all the way in the back you know what does it doing to the Four Corners around there um you know it could be trapped back there you know think of the different streets and you know what people's backyards look like on those different streets um or conversely like down you know you have like Road there streets like Parkway that have a slope where it goes from sidey to side yard to side yard to side yard I mean that's something that you need to kind of Envision when you're you know make these decisions so you know I'm probably more of a mind like Joe was saying like probably even less than 400 sare F feet might be the magic number yeah um but again weighed by the fact that somebody wants to put that garage in you're going to spend $2,000 doing that just doing paperwork to get their pent in addition to AR PL and all the other stuff so um I don't know if I question you know but I like Joe's idea that having some criteria like a general criteria is probably a good thing because it kind of sets the tone for what a grading plan should look like and you know in our town if you have the standard lot most of the lots are 40 by 100 um you're allowed to put your garage the re rear yard setback is only 3et so you know you're right on somebody you're right close to somebody else's property uh you know it's it's it's something to consider you know one of the one of the other board members um who wanted to be here tonight Shi cabin off but he's fire meeting LNA fire yesterday uh he had asked me to mention something that you know he said if you're he wanted the number down lower too and um his his concern was you know if you have some of the old in town that don't use leaders and gutters you know they have no no um drainage uh um no storm water planted o on the property on the existing property that uh if you give them if you're going to give them a variant for an addition whether it's you even it's only 250 ft it doesn't really uh if they have if they have a a me the property to handle the storm water 250 ft is not going to really matter very much but if they don't they don't have leaders in Gs now you have a house that doesn't have any mechanism for it and you're going to just give it to you're just going to have this addition say they're putting a onecar garage attached to the side of the house if they can do that you're not going to you're going to require them to meet the plan on that but not the rest of the house it's not you know maybe there's a way and I Alan I discussed this and he's got some thoughts on it that I hadn't thought of but maybe there's a way at that point you make him you make him put a a drainage plant on for the whole property even though it's existing because to say well you just have to put a drainage plan on for this one new section well water's going all over the place is you know you're not really solving very much it's hard to do that though with on a property that like comes for zoning permits a completely conforming addition for them to retrofit the entire structure most of the implementation of that like certainly if it comes before the Ford it's fair game if storm water is an issue I think the board can get around to where there's a condition that storm water on site shall be mitigated in some ma manner as part of their approval and it's you know part of the criteria by which they grant were you know's say received approval but you know we're trying to capture this also like I don't think I don't know what kind of jurisdiction like legally you can kind of go back for to retrofit something in existing condition even if it's bad um with thein you know does it become subjective you know how do we implement this how do you I don't know the only things I have experience with are where you have to mitigate the storm water from the proposed Arrangement at least in a zoning permit stand you know if it's going to happen administratively through the zoning office then the mitigation only really happens uh to the extent of the new construction and and when I say new construction new lateral construction if it's just a straight up Second Story Edition that does because really the drain patterns don't change if you're just going straight up it's when you're adding more impervious that's but that goes to I think Joe's comment that if there's nothing existing and you go up to a second story then you would have to include additional okay water mation that might be a legal discussion do that but uh that I don't I don't think that's been the implementation in any of the towns where I've work that you know it's really more of a lateral isue and actually it goes by area of disturbance so you know it's kind of measured on the ground it's not measured like on the the structure so you could have two you know front porch and a back deck with a cover over it and an aggregate that could be you know the threshold number um but you're still only really addressing the the additions we'll take a pause right there if anybody has any questions or anything they want to add to the discussion I I have a question in part C if if the plan requires approval of the burrow engineer or the planning board engineer is is there some criteria that the engineer would follow that in other words party could say as provided in whatever uh Source would State the criteria the engineer would use no so we so that was a combination of kind of the the Preamble that Joe suggested that you know and it's you know kind of a a a qualitative thing like you know a grading plan to demonstrate that you you know storm water will not impact adjacent properties so that kind of sets the framework and then it's the engineers let's say good engineering judgment on whether a plan either achieves that or doesn't achieve that um yeah there's not like a set rule there's not a book no there's not a book this is the braing plan for the state but actually so when we get down a little bit later there's actually some design criteria built into this but um that's more like the mitigation the you know encouraging recharge okay that's a bit of math but the grading is a is really more of a subjective thing um so so now we get to Item B this actually um goes a bit to that criteria that we were just talking about the significant alter alteration of the topographic features um you know shall be prohibited uh particularly where there trees and shrubs to are removed or um existing stabilized slope so I think that is you know kind of goes to that criteria because the more grading you do the more trees you have to take down the more you know when you either adding cutting or filling of a lot has effect on the vegetation that lives there what does it mean when it says significant alteration uh well so I would say to the extent like if I had to apply it to like a single family lot it would be to the extent that the addition has to go in it can't be that you know you're going to be changing grade 25t away from the addition that they put in you know the to me that would be significant that they're going well beyond let's say the footprint of what the project is I just I'm not sure how if I was the person doing a project I would know what I'm allowed to doing what I'm not well so I mean the homeowner himself is not really they're not you know unless they're a licensed or they're professionals a professional but they're professional will understand the cont significant alteration yes I mean in this ordinance it says significant alteration penetration existing slope and excess of 2 feet in height again that's you know we were talking about that actually I wanted to strike that last sentence because that's actually a specific thing in Spring Light and I don't know if it necessarily really impes here some Bluffs and what have you like long Ocean Avenue that they don't want penetrated so that's really kind of specific um so the utilization of retaining walls um or a Prohibition on that is that's a good thing because that helps reduce the significant you it kind of goes to the significant part if you allow retaining mors you allow significant grading of a lot whereas if you're relying on natural features you are more constrained so um like I like be um um and probably B to remain where B is and then like I said I really think that item C becomes like the new a you get rid of the a that's there and you make c um because that establishes the framework and and and you can go a little bit further that's that's probably where you would insert that you know qualitative description that Joe suggested earlier um and then D you kind of get into the more of the nuts and bolts of you know what the footprint can be what the um you know where you can or can't discharge storm water um and some pump discharges so I mean those are really like that's probably set up properly your your I think the area the area of disturbance is really the thing that probably needs to be tightened up on the on that in that paragraph day so this is this is basically telling the homeowner what they have to do to mitigate their right their storm water so where it has to go and what what the what the function has to be yes and that's that's the stra ation because you're really here you're trying to induce recharge that's where you're disposing of storm water on site as opposed to the grading plan which you're trying to mitigate water going from property to property this is where you're trying to actually dispose of it on site so uh and usually they kind of work hand in hand um excuse me for one second this is where you were saying you would want to reduce that 750 yeah yeah like I'm thinking pretty significant for our town well it's way too high yeah 300 would be 15 by 20 300 sare ft that's a garage right you know 20 by 400 20 by by 20 that's it's pretty decent Siz Edition you know when you figure a driveway on the property and three foot setbacks you're not going to build a house that's too much wider than 20 ft so that's you know be a substantial addition to the house I don't know what 750 squ ft break down to but that's that's a very big addition for for a 40t block right that would be like a 25 by 30 that's you know probably like a two and a half car garage you know that's pretty big um you know so that's something to kind of like I'm thinking the range is between 250 and 400 you know after all of these different iterations and discussions um the dryw sizing like 75 cubic feet in item it's like D1 um 75 square or cubic feet of storage is probably way too high it's kind of commensurate with the 750 square fet you know I'm thinking maybe that's more on the order of 40 cubic feet um because again that even though you know you might end up doing an addition that's smaller like let's say if you go with 250 and they only need 25 cubic feet you can still have them put in a 40 cubic foot um like drywall or recharge system um that added capacity is helpful we're only talking about an inch of rain for the the criteria if you look further down in that D1 it's you're providing a foot of storage for every 12 ft of roof area that's the equivalent of an inch of rain so recognizing that it's going to recharge as it's raining so there it's not just that you have that many cubic feet of of uh storage it's kind of a continual process but you know there's going to be rainstorms when it gets inundated when you get 3 in in an hour you know the those drywells will even get in but you know if they're going to catch 85% of the rainstorms 90% of the rainstorms something like that I mean those numbers have been pretty I think you know I want to say they've kind of stood the T the time the int 12 12 sare so if this if this was accepted by the council and it was passed as an ordinance what are some of the things that would be excluded what are what are the the the m factors or the management tools that exist now that would not be allowed with this ordinance uh I don't I don't know if anything would not be allowed they would just like the applicants would have to achieve the performance required of this ordinance it's not precluding them from doing a garage it's just no I'm talking about the the how people are dealing with their runoff currently so for instance you know I have a neighbor who has their leaders into a pipe that goes underground that goes out into the street right right is that something that would not be allowed that would not be allowed right so you would not have new homes being built where the runoff was being pumped into the street or there sums or there sumps right so there would be a recharge system on site and there run off and their sumps would go into those recharge systems and you know I know that this is chips big pet peeve you know his neighbor did an addition there was soil that came from the foundation that soil was spread across the site and created a situation for him a drainage issue that would not be allowed because that would be a significant alteration of the Grave from what it was to what it was after they there would be documentation of that that's that's where it kind of falls apart right now is the fact that you almost can't you don't have the grading plan to go by the grading plan is ISS is re prepared reviewed and approved before anything goes into the ground so you kind of have like a jumping off point after it's done and you're kind of guessing at stuff like what was the topography before they did the addition you know you don't have a baseline to say you Chang grade by a foot or 2 feet or whatever because you don't have a baseline from where it was I mean yeah you could probably go dig a hole and try to figure it out but you know physically but the reality of it is a grading plan would be reproducible and we frankly not here but in other places we've actually gone back to the grading plan to prove that a builder did not achieve what the the approved grading Plan called for that they significantly change the grade even beyond what the grading plan allowed um so it it gives the the burrow kind of a leg up on at least on an enforcement basis and then not like a g whiz how did that happen sort of you know posture um and then you know some of the the stuff in the remainder of this is kind of technical the dry wells should be 2 feet above the groundwater table that's it needs to be 2 feet because DP requires that that's a in the storm water regulations the BP manual um that's going to make it very difficult for some in spots res right in in spots they're going to be U but by the same token there are methods for I mean look you know there's wck pond in Spring Lake there's houses all around there the groundw table is real shallow and you know we've had you know Engineers find a way there's there's you know like low uh you know there's recharge um strategies that can be done even where groundwater table is hot so uh I mean there may be spots where it's impossible and maybe there needs to be a way to to um to recognize that I don't know that might be something you need to try like see how it goes and see if would that be something that would fall into a planning board situation they would have to go for a variance well right so if this ends up in the zoning ordinance then you need to get a variance from it if you can't build it but again that's maybe is that an intended consequence or an unintended consequence of the ordinance like if somebody's doing a fully conforming addition but they can't achieve one or more of criteria of the grading plan and you're chasing them toward the board on that basis is that where you want to be or not necessarily I mean just it's it's something I'm kind of throwing it out there as a something to think about um you know you never want to be the guy that you know I always think of it like even at the planning board you know you have an applicant coming in coming in for a variance on a fence you can't you know I'm not going to do a thousand a, review for something that's only going to cost them 500 bucks you know what I mean like you are you going to chase into the board over something like that or do you provide some um built in there where maybe some matter of grading in those really low line areas um could overcome the uh let's say or help mitigate so that it doesn't impact Jason so um and then uh was actually in the last item the basement for slabs they also have to be two feet now above the groundwater table for that's actually the storm water regulations as well it used to be one foot they moved it so and I know that's a lot of stuff to of digest I I keep writing down notes Here Drew you've been back and forth with Al you have anything you want to add um I have some technical questions um know said and done I I understand the the issue with trying to there's a lot of houses out there that over the last decade or so you know this is an issue right that's why it's in front of us and Order management is a huge problem in Jersey especially in this area so with that being said outside the approvals the enforcement asp so um and the technical know part of that so my question to you is that something that the code enforcement would handle once they you know what are what are your thoughts so I it's been like so my experience has been I mean the one thing that's a little bit different I work here I work in Spring Lake I work in Bal um I work in Township and all of those places the zoning office has at least one engineering so the zoning officer in Spring Lake is actually an engineer the zoning office real is actually an engineer so they can actually review these plans and do it as part of their zoning prr you know I not to say that let's say a zoning officer that's not an engineer can't review and approve it that they you know I think you'd want to have a confidence that the person that person knows what they're looking at or would rely some profal or you identify that maybe theal engineer looks at grading plans you know that and then the enforcement's probably easier because the enforcement really probably starts with somebody who can read a grading plan like I mean a lot of times you can go out there and there's going to be things that didn't change the sidewalk didn't change the neighbors garage didn't change like things that are nearby you're going to have a sense of whether the landform looks right or not so but you can put the onus back on the applicant to prove that they followed their own plan like if they really deviate that much it's really on them to or we can you can put it on them you can essentially you know assert that they didn't achieve their plan or they went beyond their plan and they're not in compliance that jeopardizes the zoning ground so um you know it can get messy but all code enforcement can get messy I mean that's just the way it is but at least when you have pre you know the pre-existing condition right now you don't have pre-existing conditions unless they come before the planning you know we don't get surveys with to we just get surveys you know zoning off office really only get surveys that have the four square of the property but not what the landforms gra plans can to give the landform and that really kind of gives every everybody well and it provides a a fair basis I don't mean to make it sound like it it gives a burrow a leg up but it it gives it more information to be able to do enforcement without the existing conditions it's hard to do enforcement So the gring plan will establish what the existing conditions I think I'm good I know we have a lot more talking to do um and you raised a couple more questions myself it's work in progress I think I think we're head the right dire I I have a question I have two questions actually um so just so I understand is this this is on ordinance that you've like taken from somebody else and and kind of marked up that you're proposing it's not necessarily our ordinance or what you're proposing exactly word for word that we adopted just here for the groups is of the discussion yeah okay just wanted to clarify that and then it's been that's been in place in Spring Lake for probably at least 15 years again spring LED but yes this has been on their books and this is in their zoning ordinance this is what I apply as the board engineer when when applicants were before me and it's what the zoning officer applies when he has applications that are not going before the board that he applies understood okay thanks and then you mentioned um mayor asked a question about um sort of mitigators when it comes to building a new home and what would be allowed and what wouldn't be allowed and this might be a big question in like there might not be a simple answer to this but what are the cost differences for someone putting in what we would want them to put in versus what's allowed now if you will right now there's nothing really required I mean unless they came before the board and there's a condition that the board put on let's say it's a brand new house right now they can kind of mess around with the grade to at least probably an extent before people start screaming and then the down they could have no drainage no leaders or gutters or they could have leaders and gutters down the splash blocks that are 3et from the side Lot line and depending where where you are in town that could be a big deal you know if your lot runs front to back or I'm sorry back to front Okay most of the drain is probably going out toward the street anyway but if it's on Parkway it's just going from one lot to the next to the next to the next so um you know that water at the back of the house is never going to get out the street it's going to go to neighbor but what we're proposing here it's a new house all of those down spouts would go into uh a drive well system provided it's not so low on the hill that the groundwater table is so high that you can't do it but if you're Midway up near the top up avue you're going to put in drywall systems that are going to catch all this stuff and you're going to grade the lot such that you minimize impacts to the neighbor's properties even after you did the nage so there's a way to make those things that's where you're probably going to get your most dramatic effect is going to be on new homes people that come in for fully conforming houses don't come before board that you know they knock down a bungalow and they put up some big monster two story house but you're going to get Mitigation Of all the stor water that comes from at least the building right so I think that sounds great but my question is what what's the price of something like that like a dry well you're asking what yeah like what you're proposing what's how what's the difference in depends on what looking get depends on what you you know if you know concrete tanks cost money you probably you know you probably could spend like a couple thousand dollars on uh having a tank installed with the stone and some piping and you know a concrete Vault but there's other ways to do it you can do it with stone Filter Fabric in pipe perforated pipe um actually that we see that quite a bit in when we do with the board um when we require those things um you know that we have that you'll see like a it's almost like a burrito you have the uh Filter Fabric it's below the grve by six in to a foot and then Stone a pipe wrapped in stone wrapped in Filter Fabric and yeah you know you get so much volume per linear foot of that you know you put in a 30 40 50 feet of that and you know maybe with a popup emitter out by the street so that if it does overflow it overflows to the street not to your neighbor's yard I mean that's we we've approved a couple of them on planing board applications it's it's not really high-tech there are some things that are high-tech that you could spent like just a few thousand dollars you're saying you could be well I mean you could spend a lot more too right but I mean just I know like I said this might not have an easy answer but I just want idea and it's something that some people could install themselves it's not like you necessarily have to have a contractor to do it I mean okay digging a trench 30 or 40 ft long is cck breaking work but it's you know it's it's not exotic it's not and I think the the the simple answer is by requiring something someone building a home will have than pay right now y to put something extra sure and to do the plan and you know all those things you know it's going to add up you you know this ordinance will have people incur more costs and doing you know but by the same token it helps mitigate you know all the code enforcement that you have to do rainstorm after rainstorm after rainstorm you know it just it's it it gets tiring I mean honestly the last month or six weeks rain and then that rain earlier back in like September the end of September where it rained for like a week um I felt like that's all we did a lot the time was Chase around trage problems dra problem I mean we were I was on the road like half a week you know just you know not here elsewhere but you know it gets tiring I don't know not being a contractor or anything but if you're it could run an awful lot of money to the neighbors if all of a sudden you have to figure out how to get water out your basement because two or three people around you when you're trying to solve that problem after the house is built especially when it's not wasn't really your problem but um I would think that could be very expensive sure yeah I'm sure issues I have no question what's going on anything I just make one suggestion it wouldn't come under disord um you know I mentioned like one of the things we're seeing in P people are trying to build like compounds um right now you're allowed to put a 10 by 10 foot sheded you know you one more in whatnot maybe one of the things that we can tighten that ordinance up a little bit so that you're building a shed like that it's supposed to be a little a utility shed um but you can't have Plumbing sewage you can't run water and sewage to it uh maybe running electrics fine you you need a light in it you need a plug to um start your snow blower you know uh but it might be a good idea to to think about that a little bit to you know what we more strictly limiting what that shed's going to be used for um and the other is you know when I asked talked about this before uh along the same lines people find of I think kind of overdevelop in in many cases the property again we're not lots of size of spring like the Bri um you know maybe we're going do start to need need to Define things like U what AA is you know and gaze and a cabana and a cabana and a a bilon you know we have the definitions yeah you know it's it's something we kind of trip over you know both in the review and I'm sure if John rower here he'd say the same thing you know he sees it every day I only see it a couple times a month but he sees it every day so even if you just Define them does b or Spring Lake have something like that uh Spring Lake has better definition than b does would say they've kind of kept up with um and part of that's been application driven we've had applications the the zoning office didn't know what to do with a request it came before the board we recognized that it was some level of a hybrid or something we didn't Define and you know you see a couple of them and you're like you know what we probably should Define that and even maybe put a criteria on it can't be more than 100 sare fet 200 sare fet it has to be a tennis St garage like you come up with these criter so that um you know it helps well it makes it fair for everybody and um you know yeah the town and the neighbors don't get taken advantage of because it's not we get copies of or we get copies of other towns regarding that we can look at it I can look into it um just so the council knows this is multiple what we have in front of you is multiple areas right so it's r sprake um I gled at a few other ones but I think Spring Lake had most of their items were seem to be the best yeah they they they U Spring Lake really stays on top of the definitions and actually it's a kind of a sore point they don't even involve me U they have their own engineer their zoning officer the town engineer the town planner does this and I kind of get to look at at the end of the day I'm like well that's funny I get to help en force it but I um but they've done a really pretty good job there with uh you know defining things and you know kind of at least staying with Trends um when it comes to like impervious coverage and you know there's new materials out there and you know they they're paying attention to what's going on out there which is good anything else from the council before we open it up um okay I'll come back after we open up for the council can you just put up that mic so we can um have someone from thank you so at this time anyone from the public who would like to make comments on our Workshop items or the discussion we had can do so now you can come to the mic we just need your name and address and uh any comments questions you may have uh Jim bu Canon 528 North Boulevard so my question is is uh I I understand where you're coming from everything that you're saying makes sense but I have an issue being with being the lowest uh property in this area and the water has infiltrated my uh wall my yard um and the amount of water that I'm getting is tremendous I have videos I have over a hundred videos multiple occasions so my question is the problem that is is very big it's not just one house two houses um how do we and the water has etched its way so even in a drizzle I'm getting flooded so how do we how do we Rectify those types of situations where the storm water is actually creating damage to another property I know that you're in the uh pre-building stages but Post building where is there any remedy there so I think that was um part of the questions there part of discussion we had there was how do we really enforce this on existing structures right existing property right I didn't hear any of that right is there I mean it was a question it it was a legal question that's my big question it's not your question no that's my big question yeah that's and that would be my question too and I don't know if you if you have anything um to add to that that that's possibility well just off the top of my head you're okay um you know I have I'd have to give give it some thought and just think about this but from the top of my head I think that's sort of the whole point point of why the um council is considering this ordinance because right now there's nothing really to nothing to enforce right and if you're talking about if you could identify it might be a private action between you and a neighbor if a neighbor's property is flooding yours but from the burough standpoint I to me it doesn't seem like there's any enforcement mechanism in place that I can think of off to my head to address existing conditions which it sounds like they've been getting worse over time as we've been more and more flooding has been occurring yes so I would add to that that um the plans that I have researched for the land behind me had specific uh qualifiers and I'm not sure those qualifying uh actions were meant so there's recent development that you're talking about so I went back as far as Ronald Glenn's uh final plat and the information that I had you have the information here you could look at it I'm not sure that um those plans were followed so what you were saying about um someone comes in and they do the grading and then they leave and then all of a sudden that grading isn't what it was supposed to be so after the fact H how does that enter the equation so um um and I'll I'll address that and I'll ask Drew to help me address that because we're we're in the middle of looking at the enforcement on that um and Drew can you just give us an update where we are with that we're looking at the Wells and we're trying to figure out how many Wells there are correct right so um properties there do have wells um to determine how many Wells and the size of those Wells that's what we're trying to determine now some of those houses weren't required from I can't find any documentations but in particular the house was right behind you right so right they actually go into the ground but there's no documentation that says what size of Wells or you know what wells there are now with the problem that we're having too is the water table right so you know even those Wells do fill up and I I think um Mr Hill explained it you know how do you what do you do to to Once those Wells fill up and they fell up quickly with this amount of rain we have where does that water go from there in your area you're a lot of the probably slope right to you right right to me and that's not something that is easily fixed you can't slope it to the street for them to slope it to the street it would actually go on somebody else's property to do that as we discussed so running pipes through other people's properties there's no easement there for town so I'm still working into that there there's you know a lot of questions and I've been working with on that so you know I don't have a solid answer for you it's h you know there's there's houses out than there quite long right yes listen I understand that but um the activity that is going on behind me is creating more and more damage so when I first moved in I thought it was just uh a leaky the walls in my crawl space had holes in them and I went around and I and I patched them up and then they came the water came in over there and then I patched up over there and then over there and then I patched up over there so then I started to really think about like what was going on now I landscaped my property so that the water would flow away from the house and be absorbed into the soil that wasn't working and then one day my whole yard was flooded in 2018 so that that showed me that it was coming from behind so what I'm saying is this problem is not just since I moved in this has been going on for a long time and I wonder were there any considerations of the slope did the Town allow these things to happen without knowing that that was the lowest point on that block it's all sloping to me and I do think somebody mentioned you know it should be the good neighbor uh Clause where do no harm I'm being harmed and it's bad it's much worse than you think my yard is ruined used to be a beautiful little place where I could go and hide and just be at peace it's a nightmare and I you know I don't know what to do and I know I I could tell you what the problems are in detail I could show you videos um but I can't solve the problem myself I think it's a group effort and that's where I come to you and say can you help me and this is like a good neighbor thing um I mentioned that uh perhaps we could get people to gather and and really show what's going on and maybe they can uh help in a neighborly way I don't want to sue anybody I don't want to do that but I am experiencing pure hell every time it rains I'm out there sucking water out of my crawl and and trying to get it out of my yard it's unbelievable I have videos if you don't think I'm not struggling then I'll send you all the videos this was happening to your house you'd be as mad as me so I don't know what to say I think that you guys have to get involved in some way um and I have I have Solutions I believe I wrote them down so I'm going to stop you right there um if you want to come back at the the public session during the meeting with those Solutions in those comments you can do so right now it's right once we do our regular meeting so right now we're talking about this ordinance I yield that right awesome thank you anyone else having um comments or questions or discussion on this ordinance on this discussion in this not an ordinance it's the discussion in this Workshop bless you seeing none I'll make a motion to close um thank you second thank you all favor I don't think we needed to really make a motion there you go um okay uh I want to thank you um to our guests tonight um I appreciate your expertise I think you explained it very well um I think a couple of the big questions that we have um to talk about as a council is number one how do we as uh the governing body help our residents who are experiencing this issue currently um and not just what we can do to help them in the future with new buildings and I know that is a question that you are mulling over um Al and I know that's something we're going to discuss in the future as well um additionally if we were going to move forward with this ordinance we would definitely have to question the number in D um the size of addition square footage of additions I agree that 750 ft is probably very large for Lake Como um but that is something that we could talk about and additionally what the minimum cubic feet of any type of um recharge system would be um that would equate to whatever that square footage is uh I think it's very important though that the council does understand that this would specifically direct new building in our town that they would have one way and one way only of dealing with their Wastewater um with their storm water management um I think it's a I think it's a a good um I think it's a good direction I think it's a good recommendation for an ordinance I think it's very important that you understand though that that's what the ordinance would read that if somebody's going to build a house this is how you deal with storm water management and that's it um and if you need to do something else you would have to go in front of a zoning board and look look at different varant so as you move forward any final comments or questions before we move on okay um at that at this time I will end our Workshop meeting um you're going to bring those notes back and to um somebody okay thanks um thank you all very much for coming if you uh if you are leaving after the workshop meeting at this time I will call the regular meeting of the mayor in Council to order please rise for a salute to the flag and a moment of Silent reflection Al to the flag of the United States of America to the rep for stands naice please remain standing for a moment of Silent reflection thank you Sunshine Law please on the second of January 2024 in which resolution place of agenda and regular meetings commencing with January 2nd were set forth there sust copy of the noce wased on the website and on The Bu board me call please here here thank you uh we have two minutes for approval tonight uh can I have a motion to approve the minutes from the December 19th regular meeting so move uh all in favor opposed extensions and can I have a motion to approve the minutes from the January 2 reorganization meeting in favor opposed extensions we have no Communications we will start with our reports of we'll have reports of committees starting with councilwoman Al Badoo thank you mayor uh as far as my committees all matters are in order but I did want to take a moment just to say a big thank you to the Belmar Police Department to the fire department and first aid for their quick action the other day um as someone who lives right there and was able to be witness to a lot of what happened um they really did an amazing job so I just wanted to say thank you so much for protecting what they could protect for helping the neighbors surrounding them and also for helping the people who are in there so thank you so much please pass that along I don't other than that all matters in order thank you folks if you if you don't mind folks if you can we're going to have if you can take the discussion thanks appreciate it um councilman ventrice thank you mayor the uh environmental commission is meeting this Thursday night uh at 6:30 here um it's uh our I think every other monthly meeting and um right now the Williamsburg high school for architecture and design is working with the environmental commission uh to make help make a proposal for the U Main Street Arboretum of uh trees now they actually uh helped out with the the lake they were very helpful there uh we're looking to see how they can help out uh the commission on that project also otherwise all matters are in order do you know off hand I'm putting you on the spot here I'm sorry do you know offand how if we have money in the tree fund do not okay we'll figure that out too because that might help as far as the arbm is concerned I think the arbm is a great um it's a great idea it's something that I know that the uh environmental commission has been working on for many years I think it'll be a nice addition to our Main Street um Council thank you mayor just wanted to um thank the DPW for their hard work today uh keeping the streets clean getting out there at 4:00 a.m. during this first bit of uh winter weather we experienced today so they did a good job getting out there Bri early and keeping things as um cleaned up as possible um and looks like there could be a little bit more on the horizon for later this week but hopefully that's um ends up not being too bad but yeah so appreciate their uh their hard work today um other than that all matters are in order thank you very much councilwoman skull thank you mayor matters are in order thank you council president withy thank you Mr Mayor uh with regard to Heather's comment I'll be going to the bmore dinner PR dinner on Saturday and I'll make our comments know to them how thankful they are you are for them doing with the good job they did and I'll bring that up at their dinner uh sh you have any Portland no other than that matters in order thank you uh I will echo my um my colleagues thanks to the fire department first aid and the police department uh for those of you that don't know we had an unfortunate uh incident on Wildwood Place yesterday morning while it was yesterday um where the uh police received a phone call about 605 that there was a fire at a structure fire on Wildwood Place um I our fire department did respond um unfortunately the house was a loss but they did an excellent job SA saving the adjacent structures um and the the loss was uh was limited um there was no loss of human life uh there was some minor injuries uh to the occupants of the house and to one fireman and they were treated and I believe they were released yes um from Georgy Shure Medical Center so thank you for everyone who responded to that and it's not just our First Responders but it is our uh our neighbors and our citizens that that see the and call them in and uh anybody that did anything for that thank you very much additionally thank you to our DPW and our uh work our office workers here for opening today and getting out at 4:00 this morning to to plow and to salt and to sand um and they will be keeping up those efforts throughout the night uh and tomorrow as we get a dip dip in the temperature uh this Sunday is the 20th it is coffee with the mayor from first coffee with the mayor for the year if it's not on the website and the board we will put it on there we go Saturday what did I say Sund Saturday sorry it's Saturday uh it is at 9:30 9:30 uh 9:00 I'm sorry it is at 9:00 9 to 10:30 on Saturday other than that all matters are in order we have one item under new business for oh we got to open up to public that's right okay I'll take a motion to open for public comments on new business and consent agenda Mo second all in favor I opposed anyone wishing to speak to items that are listed under the consent agenda or new business only may do so may come up and do that now if you wish see none I'll take a motion to close I'll move second all in favor I thank you uh we have one special events permit underneath uh under new business we have the jerseys Shore 5K do we have a representative for this special events permit with us please come to the mic and give us your name and address please uh hi hi Jim Gardino from uh 20 Sherman Avenue West Long Branch hey Jim how are you good good um I believe you've been here before I have correct yes okay so um tell us a little bit about your uh your permit request uh it's a 5K run I believe it's running through Elmore uh uh Como and Spring Lake um it's a 5k both combination run and walk and this is uh have you gotten have you received permission from the other towns yet I believe that we have but I don't have the exact answer for that on the agenda forar next week um just so you know you would have to get permission from Spring Lake as well absolutely uh and this is a run walk that you've done with us in the past correct correct and the time of the event is 8:30 mhm and the run will Begin by 9:00 a.m. yes what's the I'm sorry what's the DAT May 4 May uh any questions from the council Chief any comments the only comment I have and I think we've already discussed it orar has discussed it with you um when you're going around the lake on the Spring Lake Side you have to run on the path around the lake no longer shutting down the roads in Spring Lake I think we did that last year as well y so the only question I have and I think we've dealt with this situation with this group before is that there's a lot of Walkers I believe correct yes um and at a certain point uh Chief correct me if I'm wrong we do move Walkers to the side sidewalk at a certain point yes so we'll move them once they come around the lake and onto Main Street once the runners are already through and if they're still Walkers we toalk he did that last year as well yeah okay work out well um and that just helps us open up the streets oh absolutely quicker the uh insurance certificate expires on the 16th of November I can't speak to the insurance I was just asked if be a representative if you have questions I can go back with and TR to get something El well you're going to need you're definitely going to need a new Certificate of Insurance I know um Joe yes Joe before and get one before the event um so just let Joe know that if if the council does approve this um that it will come with the caveat that that insurance insurance comes um and Amy will let us know if it doesn't okay any other questions any would like to make a motion make a motion we approve it with the caveat that new insurance cic be submitted second second can I have a roll call please W yes yes yes and yes alado yes thank you very much am will expect the uh insurance certificate okay absolutely all right thank you happy day all right we have resolution 2024 D31 offered by council president witty so off of resolution 24-31 a resolution am Council bur of Lake comoo applying for the making of a temporary appropriation this is creating a temporary budget until the new budget is passed is it can exceed 26 25% of the 20 203 23 budget a second roll call please yes SC yes yes yes yes thank you the resolution passes resolution 202 24-32 offered by councilman Dano thank you mayor sole offered resolution 2024-25 CPA RMA of alwa and Compass CPA is hereby appointed Municipal auditor effective April 1st 2024 for onee term through March 31st 2025 now therefore be resolved that the mayor and Council of the B Lake coma here by authorizes the B clerk to enter into a contract with Robert alaa and company CPA as described have a second second roll call please CC yes yes yes yes valador yes thank you I have resolution 20243 three offered by councilwoman skull thank you mayor offering resolution 202 24-33 resolution appointing office of emergency management coordinator whereas at the recommendation of the mayor the burough Council wishes to to appoint an office of an emergency management coordinator as follows Robert de Martin the above person Shall Serve in their respective role for a term commencing J 16th 2024 and expiring December 31st 2026 thank you um and just for the record this is replacing um our OEM coordinator Tucker brindle design you get a full-time job U Mr de Martin has been on uh Public Safety teams uh he is the head of elmar EMS um and I have the utmost confidence in his ability to be the OEM um I have a motion or second second roll call please counc member witty yes yes yes yes yes thank you resolution passes we have resolution 202 24-34 offered by council president witty sotion 20 24-34 amending the appointment of the local mergen planning committee and this is adding Robert de Martin to that committee second second pleas yes yes yes yes yes thank you resolution passes resolution 202 24-35 offered by councilman ventrice from memory up so for resolution 2024 35 resolution of the B of Lake coma council is Tak sessions whereas the bur Council and the bur of Lake coma must discuss matters which are not appropriate for discussion in a public meeting and whereas the subjects are within exceptions to the open public meetings act and are permitted to be discussed includ session JSA 10 42b whereas the burrow Council intends to discuss matters covered by the attorney client privilege and it is uh anticipated that the Clos session will be uh up to 30 minutes long have a second second roll call please CC yes yes yes entri yes yes thank you the resolution passes resolution number 22436 offered by councilman Dan thank you mayor so offered resolution number 202 24-36 this is a resolution of the bur of Lake Como setting forth the salaries of certain burrow of Lake Como employees in accordance with the salary ranges established in ordinance 202297 um this is for calendar year for employees and the resolution outlines the positions and base salaries for salary positions as well as the hourly rates for resolution do I have a second second roll call please yes scull yes yes yes yes thank you the resolution passes resolution 2024 d37 by Council woman scull thank you mayor so offered resolution 202 24-37 be it resolved by the mayor and Council of The Bu of lake comoo that the proper officers be directed and authorized to make payment from the following accounts the current account 2023 for the attach Bill list $1,437 32 the water and sewer account 2023 10, 66219 the general Capital account 444 the AC wire payments Uh current account is $ 33577 38 and the water sewer is $ 5,364 and3 for a 2023 total of $ 62,1 18492 uh then there's the current account 2024 per attached Bill list $ 57,8 193 water sewer account 2024 173 $ 6843 and the capital outlay account 2024 $3,920 37 for a 2024 total of$ 26249 740 thank you very second second roll call please yes yes yes yes yes thank you the resolution passes resolution 202 24-38 also offered by councilwoman SCH thank you mayor uh resolution 202 24-38 offering uh be it resolved by the mayor and Council of the burough of lake comoo that the proper officers be directed and authorized to make payment from the following account current account New Jersey natural gas company $663 38 have a second second please yes yes yes yes thank you the resolution passes we have resolution 202 24-39 offered by councilwoman alala Doyle thank you mayor so offered resolution 2024 d39 which is a resolution authorizing the burrow cler Clerk and or burrow administrator to solicit proposals for bman park playground improvements under the Community uh development block grant we rewarded $177,600 under that Community Development block grant for the purpose of these improvements um this would be the first phase of improvements set to be for this installation of this playground um and this will require us to solicit bids for proposal from uh qualified contractors and um be it resolved that this would um the burough clerk Andor the burough administrator with the guidance of the buau engineer will report back to the mayor and council at the February 6 2024 meeting with their recommendations for Award of the contract for the project we'll have a bid back that quick nice okay uh do I have a second second roll call please yes yes yes yes and we also have an addition so we have resolution 20244 offered by council president so off resolution 2024 this is a resolution authorizing to transfer money from certain accounts to other accounts in the amount of $842 39 this is for the uh budget of 20123 also in the resolution is transferring from the war account to a Social Security account of $500s thank you second second roll call please yes yes yes yes yes thank you before we go into executive session I will take a motion to open for public comments please so move second all in favor opposed anyone wishing to speak um uh on comments or questions for anything please come to the mic and name and address once again please K Canon 528 North Boulevard um so I was going to read this at U Milton's uh planning board meeting and looked where he was going to put his addition and it either was going to go in behind him which there's houses like right there or it was going to come downhill right into my yard so I'm just going to read it uh so I've been here since 2014 from 2015 to 2017 I was plugging leaks in my crawl space uh and uh councilwoman skull I have spent about $10,000 so far and it's getting worse just because I know you were worried about money in 2018 that's when the problem revealed itself I observed storm water run off infiltrating the backyard and began stage two of my flooding plan to address these issues I know where the water is coming from at a video August 13 2018 the flooding became more of a serious is after 13 Ripley Lane I think that was Gary's house was constructed um I just want you to see Jim Jim I can't do this not right now I want you to continue hold this I want you to continue with your if you can see all right it's like a waterfall this is going in my basement the flood became more serious when that house was built my patio is ruined my patio furniture is ruined my plants are dead the garden that I have is not working out very well the trees landscaper my papers the retaining wall is collapsing my crawl space has mold I have cuts on my head from banging my head on the ceiling of the cwl and The house's Foundation is at stake is it still playing now I can't fix this problem it's unfixable I have pumps they're gone all the time still the water's coming I can't fix this problem on my own I mean I could sue everybody but I want to that's not very neighborly I've studied the storm water flow I've studied the communications between the Lake Como planning board and the Ronald Glenn major subdivision as well as other documents concerning this issue from July 15 2004 to May 31st 2016 I have some issues concerning what was proposed in the major subdivision documents and then what was actually done I have brought this issue to your attention uh Mr husman came out gave me uh some advice I took them up on it and it's it's not working I mean it's working because my my base was not getting flooded as much but it's not working uh and and as I said before this issue is not a problem that I can solve on my own um it's going to require that the residents that live behind me whose construction has knowingly or unknowingly led to the filtering of storm water out to my property to get involved I have to get them involved I'm trying but I think it would be nice if you guys could help out I don't know how you can help out but um any suggestions um I'll take so I was going to say I couldn't agree to any of the variances from that house because I know the water is just I'm going to get more it's going to get it's going to get worse so some of the solutions in my opinion would be shallow dry Wells for underground storm water facility confirmed Downstream storm water piping connections homes on Ripley Lane should be equipped with gutter guards to reduce leaves from entering the storm water drainage system and I think one of the big problems uh is the easement labeled Ripley Lane be paved to control that water flow the road just push anything anything from like over there to there right to my house the road just sends it all I don't know what to do it's like my new hobby and it's not fun I need your help that's all I have I have videos thank you Mr you want me to email you something I'll send I'll send you something you sent it to me I've seen them yeah it's they're worse now what I sent you that was nothing I believe you okay thank you thank you Happy New Year you as well anyone else right seeing none take a motion to close so moved second all in favor I thank you um at this time we are going to go into executive session we are going to use this chamber uh we will come back I do not think we will have anything to offer when we come back and we will just come back Forney so thank you all very much have a great night drive safe careful