##VIDEO ID:7UDZS8MRqUA## good evening welcome to the public hearing for the Livingston Board of adjustment today is August 27th 2024 if you're an applicant for a d or use variance you should be aware that such a variance can only be granted after showing that special reasons for the grant to that variance exists and that variance can be granted to a substantial detriment to the zoning plan of the township of Livingston you should also be aware that in order to be granted such a variance you will require an affirmative vote of five members and seven member Board of adjustment other variances require a majority of four members to Grant the variance if you're an applicant for any variance in your variance denied by the board you have a right to appeal to the superior court of the state of New Jersey within 45 days of notice of decision and that Court May overturn that decision of this board if you're an objector to any type of variance that has been granted you too May appeal to Superior Court of the state of New Jersey within 45 days of the notice of decision if you do file an appeal I ask that you please provide a copy of your complaint to the planning admin to our planning administrator Jackie Hollis pursuant to requirements of the open public meeting act also known as Sunshine Law adequate notice of this meeting was provided to The Star Ledger and West Essex Tribune and a copy was also posted on the buum board of the municipal building in addition to having notice posted notice's meeting was placed on the Township's website members of the public will have an opportunity to ask questions or to make statements regarding each application at the appropriate time when the time comes if you like to address the board please come to the front and use a microphone so we can make sure your comments or or questions are part of the record We Now call the role Miss Khan Miss Khan is here Mr Kenya here miss Mr Sherman here miss Yuan here miss Conor here Mr Beer here and Mr jemus our board attorney is here and Miss Hollis and Miss maie are here from the planning board thank you Jackie we still G to make this the change yeah okay we're going to start with the second applicant today make sure everyone can get here um can you please call the second application block 4902 lot 15 26 Byron Place application number 22432 DV Dominic solazo applicant seeks approval for a 20 by6 deck in violation of the following section 17087 l1d front side corner lot yard setback 35 ft required 18 ft proposed 17 ft variance requested good evening how are you you're here by yourself push the button till it goes there you go okay okay if you'd like to SAR would you please state your name and spell it for us please Dominic solazo d o m i n i c s o l a z zo o Mr solazo do you swear or affirm that any nor statements you make to the board and testimony you give to the board today will be true accurate and complete yes consider yourself under oath yes thank you okay Mr salaza why don't you to tell us what you got okay good evening members of the Livingston board my name is Dominic slazo and I have been a resident of Livingston since 2018 with my family of my wife and two girls who will be attending Bern Hill in YMCA Pell thank you for taking the time to review this request I'm here to seek approval for zoning variants to permit a 17t encroachment into a corner lot setback for 18 ft versus 35 ft allowed for a proposed 16x 20t rais deck off the main level dining room of my split level home this request is made with the utmost respect for the zoning regulations and the community's character I believe that granting this variance is Justified based on the unique characteristics of the property and the minimal impact to the surrounding areas the subject property is a corner lot in Zone R4 which inherently presents unique challenges that differ from interior Lots Corner Lots by their nature have two Street frontages resulting in two required setbacks this configuration restricts the available space for outdoor amenities the proposed deck will be located along the side street where the impact of the streetcape is minimal given existing landscape coverage and fencing the proposed 7 variants for a rais deck will not adversely affect the character or Aesthetics of the neighborhood the deck will be positioned in a way that maintains the visual appeal of the corner lot and ensures that it will not not obstruct sight lines or create any undue burden on the neighboring properties the design and placement of the deck have been carefully planned to blend seamlessly with existing landscape and the architecture of the home without this variance there will be significant practical difficulty in utilizing the property the existing zoning setbacks leave limited space for construction of a deck that meets both functional and aesthetic needs due to the nature of the split level architecture and the location of the main level dining room the requested variants would allow my family to enjoy a modest outdoor space denial of this variants would effectively limit the property use enjoyment in a way that is disproportionate to the impact on the community the proposed deck is designed in accordance with the architectural style of the neighborhood and will enhance the property without detracting from the overall character of the area similar structures can be observed in neighboring properties which suggests that the proposed deck is consistent with local Trends and expectations approving this variant will support the homeowners desire to improve their property with while maintaining harmony with the surrounding environment granting dis variance will not pose any detriment to Public Welfare or safety the deck will adhere will be instructed in a manner that aderes to all building codes and safety regulations there will be no increased traffic or noise levels and the deck will not negatively affect the Environmental Quality of the area in summary the request for a 17t zoning variance for the corn lot setback is justified by the unique characteristics of the property the minimal minimal impact of on the surrounding area and the Practical difficulties faced by the property owner we respectably request that the Livington zoning board approved this variance allowing the proposed RS deck to be constructed in a manner that enhances the property while remaining the in the harmony with the neighborhood thank you for your consideration Mr solazo if we could uh identify the exhibits that you submitted to the to the board uh one is a a set of drawings three pages and one one page is entitled house the other is stared detailed and another Untitled with Rail and other details um I couldn't make out the signature did you sign those documents I did are um and can I ask are you an engineer or an architect or anything like that I'm a chemical engineer but I didn't hear you a chemical engineer but I don't think that's relevant okay and so you're the prepare of those documents and accurately depict what you're proposing to the board correct cor correct that's exhibit a then there are six photographs on three sheets of paper um the first depicting a proposed deck did who took those photographs that was me me you did and did they accur accurately reflect the images that are set forth in those photographs yes so that's going to be exhibit B as in Baker um you also submitted a one two surveys one survey Els surveying LLC Russell s Kaufman PLS that's dated 32818 um that shows existing conditions is that accurate yes that's Exhibit C and then the second or the last exhibit is another survey by the same surveying firm Els with a depiction of the proposed new deck and a yellow highlighted depiction 18 of the 18 foot sidey yard setback to Crossbrook Road sidewalk and a 59e 59 foot rear yard setback from the new deck um that's that survey was those notations on that survey were prepared by you correct okay and those accurately defect what you're proposing yes that would be exhibit D I have no further questions Mr chairman does anybody on board have any questions what so the deck really is just following the line of the house correct okay I'm just wondering do you know how large your lot is because I don't see it on here uh it's about the same size so it's 76 on the width and on the length it's about 125 I think it is okay all right so you're just continuing from the existing house correct got it that this deck the new portion you is that going to be connecting to the older deck to to the patio there'll be stairs going down to the Pao that's a patio down there okay it's going to the patio and you're only seeking the sidey yard setback that's the only only variance correct any public have any questions for this oress anybody in the public want to make any statements anybody in the board want to make any statements does anybody in the board want to make a motion for or against I'll make a motion I'll second Mr Kenya yes Mr Sherman yes Miss Khan votes yes um Miss Yuan yes M cona yes Mr Beer yes motion passes you're good thank you you go home have some ice cream or something DQ's open go to number three okay you want to call number three please yep okay block 2701 Lot 21 30 Swan Road application number 20 24-35 DV radak Builders LLC applicant applicant seeks approval to construct a new single family residence in violation of the following section 17087 cc4 habitable floor ratio 30% allowed 35.99 proposed 5.99% variance requested hi there how are you good evening everyone um my name is Matthew padum with the law firm SS cus and gross and I represent the applicant radak Builders who is here tonight proposing an application that would require ratio variance relief what the applicant is looking looking to do here tonight is demolish all existing improvements and propose a new single family home when considering a ratio the first thing you ask yourself is whether or not the lot can accommodate what you're proposing to do here okay so we took that into strong consideration the light the lot itself today as exists has four existing variances two of which there's nothing we can do about that being minimum lot area as well as depth itself however the two that we could control and eliminate are both front yard variants and side yard variants when in the plans we made sure we eliminated those variances so that wouldn't be an issue for us with that being said we still are triggering the ratio variance however we are underneath what would be permitted as the maximum floor area itself how do we also maximize that bulk measurement we'd be looking at about another 2% more for Hab ratio so instead of this being a 5.99 or let's just call it a six it would really be closer to an 8% if we were looking to max out all the bulk measurements and I say that because it was not the intention to try to get as much as we can but rather to see what was consistent with the character of the not necessarily the neighborhood but the R4 itself and also what people have been asking for when they come into Livingston for a new build with that being said I'm going to have two uh professionals testify tonight my first will be my architect aan Sandra and my second one will be my professional planner uh Nick ravano so if I may like to call my first witness uh Mr cedra please do thank you Mr chairman with your permission Mr pada you understand that we have six members present on this application and this is the d4 variant yes 75 I'm rolling the dice a little bit thank you could you kindly state your name and spell it please um my name is Iman cedra a y m n last name is cedra s c d a Mr cedra do you swear or affirm that all the statements and testimony you present to the board today will be true accurate and complete I do I will Mr Mr pad with your permission you can take him through his credentials all right great thank you so much uh Amy can you please provide us your educational credentials whether or not your license is still in good standing and name a handful of boards you've appeared before You' been qualified as an expert in architecture sure I um graduated from um um architecture um School in Egypt in 1999 I became licensed here in 2016 and I am licensed in uh New York Pennsylvania and Tennessee and I appeared in front of this board and many other board uh rather for to to mention some uh Wayne um um Bon Jersey City and is your license currently in a good standing yes it is in a good standing thank you does this board accept him as an expert in architecture uh does anyone the board have any questions or objections regarding this witness there being no objection the witness is accepted as expert in architecture great am just a few questions for you before you show us what we're proposing here tonight sure are you familiar with the bulk requirements for the R4 Zone yes and are you also familiar with the township itself and the neighborhoods themselves correct great can you please walk us through what we're proposing here tonight sure um first I'm going to go over the plans um and then I'll go over the numbers for the habitable floor area ratio and the habitable floor area and also the building height so to start with the first floor plan uh which is in sheet a01 um the first floor plan consists of the Living Spaces uh where we we enter the house through an entry porch um and then once we enter we see uh two story entry for on the left of that we have the living room on the right we have the dining room and the back of the house we have the family room and the kitchen um also we have two car garage in the first floor just one moment I think we're trying to pull the architectural plans these are the cver plans this is a the architectural great all right there we go so the one on the left side is the one I'm referring to it's uh the first floor of the house can you just take us from the top again this way the public can hear you narrate thank you Mr pad um the plans that Mr cedra is referring to are um our drawing architectural drawings he prepared that are designated as a01 A2 A1 A2 and A3 we'll mark that as exhibit a if you don't mind sure sure thank you um so A1 it's uh the floor plans uh for this uh building the first floor it's on the left side where you see the uh you enter the house through the entry port porch once you enter you will see the entry for and it's two story entry for on the left of that we have the living room on the right we have the dining room um you enter toward the back you will see the family room the kitchen um and also you will see that between the kitchen and the dining room we have some transitional spaces which is the pantry and the butler Bantry um on the left side uh next to the living room you'll see the powder room and the cold closet um the garage that's on the right side it's a two-car garage once you enter you enter through the mudro um and also we have a door to a guest room with its own bathroom and closet um the area of the first floor uh the first floor livable area is 1,444 square ft the garage area is 443 um on the right side on the top right side you'll see the second floor to the right uh where we see four bedrooms one of these bedrooms is the master uh bedroom um you know the the master bedroom includes a master bathroom and master walk-in closet um two of the small rooms shares a bathroom which is Jack and gel bathroom or a hallway bathroom rather it's on the left side here and the two B bedroom that shares the bathroom is the two by the facing front um the last bedroom which is the one on the left here that's kind of like in Suite uh bedroom with its own bathroom and walk-in closet um and the area for this second floor liveable area for that is 1,655 uh going down into the lower part here we have the basement the basement is consist of the majority of the basement just one big open space used for recreational and play playroom uh we also have a bedroom with its own egress window uh and its own closet we have a bathroom and a mechanical room and this is the the basement layout um now now the the total floor area ratio um uh is by adding these two numbers that I mentioned with which is 1,44 plus the 1655 it give me a total of 3,59 square ft uh with the floor area ratio of 35.99 this number the 3,59 is below uh the the ordinance for the habitable floor area area which is the 3,220 we are below that by 161 square feet so um as you see we're not even uh maxed out to the Max uh habitable floor area ratio uh I'm sorry habitable floor area uh we only uh asking for uh the you know the habitable for area ratio variance which is U 35.99 also I would like to mention that the entry for it's a two story foyer it's not a single story and it's counted twice in the square footage so I have I have about 10 foot foer by 16 this number is counted twice toward toward the the square footage um so so the I so basically we have like 160 Square F feet uh if this is a single story foer we would have saved the 60 square ft um the second page which is ao2 shows the exterior of the building it's a colonial style home if you go down yep so by looking at the front looks a colonial style home with a modern accent to it um we're using a stone base at the bottom we're using um uh James Hardy uh horizontal lap siding as the main uh material for the front and also we we're using some lab side lab I'm sorry slat uh with the vertical slots um stained in the in between the the siding um we have uh a very modern look to the building by using dark black windows uh dark gray roofs uh we also have a standing cmet roof above the entry porch and the portion of the garage uh which will be black um once we go around the building uh we're using only two materials we're using the the horizontal lap siding along with the vertical board and Baton on top and then uh the bottom is just a cement PGE uh the next image I will show you also the rendering for the front of the front of the building uh what this end I have it on the I have it's here this is what so we're going to mark this rendering if we can as A2 uh first the second one second one is the last sheet would you describe it again Mr facade uh yes it'll be a rendering of the facade of the proposed Improvement okay and we'll have that as B exhibit A2 A2 rather I stand correctly to's date and of course you'll provide that to miss Al so this is the rendering that shows the uh the horizontal white siding that we have here black uh standing seam M roof is above the the entry porch and dark Ro or dark gray roof on top and then we have the the wood slot the stain wood slats in between black windows um as I said it's a colonial style home with some Modern accent to it and again what's the height of this Improvement the height of the building is uh 31 31 ft 85 where it's uh the height required by code is 35 feet great so approximately a little over three feet Bel up exactly thank you have no further questions for this witness does anybody on the board have any questions I I I have a question go okay um I'm looking at the survey um that you provided uh at the right side of the house I see a 4.57 um distance from the RAR side of the house to the um uh property line is that right yes on the on the right side correct correct yes yeah and uh um but this is the existing building the existing building will get demolished oh okay do you have this is not gotcha do you have another yes um rendering showing for the new survey for the new site look at the site plan yes this is it and that will show the adequate set I see thank you FR side and also rear I see thank you Mr ver that those documents are part of the site plan correct yes sir so why don't we Mark the the site plan by GB engineering LLC Thomas G Sterns II he's the professional engineer in PLS is dat May 23 2024 that'll be A3 okay yep and we we have one more which is drainage calculations we might as well Mark it where we're at it I believe that was prepared by GB engineering LLC and Mr Sterns dated May 23 2024 consisting of six sheets will Mark that A4 Mr chairman those were part of the um the submission are I'm sorry I didn't hear you they were part of the uh submission it was okay yeah all right thank you question yes so I'm looking at the architectural plan and in that drawing the roof seems to be much higher than as shown in the rendering that you just shared um so you see the the roof is much higher than the the front and if you bring up the the rendering the picture that this one it's lower so which one is it going to the accurate one is the arure one because that's has the measurements on it okay so all right so what is the height of that uh thetic 31t 9 and A2 which is 31.85 Ft so that's the total that's the height from average grade to the highest point of the what is the height of the attic oh the attic uh there's no at like livable attic no we don't have a livable attic it will we will have a pull down stair just to access the attic if there is a mechanical equipment up there but there's no adct okay no adct for habitable for habitable but there is a roof line right of course um the roof line I would say you have inside maybe like 6'8 to 7 feet inside okay is it shown in any of the drawings uh it's not shown in the drawing because uh it's as I said it's not a li di we don't have a study for it and then you have dimensions on the top right rendering the dimension is just for the windows I think we were measuring the windows but that goes to show the height of where we could actually have for it slow down actually do you see the 5' 7 yeah the 5' 7 is the ceiling in the add the collar tie and then you have a 7 foot but again this atct is not accessible by a means of erass it just it's pull down okay and you said the house Original House the current property has many more variances which you are not you're getting rid of and you you're only applying for that one only the ratio only the ratio variance we're getting rid of the front yard variance uh we're getting rid of the sidey yard as you know the existing house has a 4ot side yard on right side so these are the two we're getting rid of right and the other two we cannot eliminate and the other two has to do with the Lots itself yeah thank you thank you so much Mr pada uh just um as as there seems to be a little bit of space but you said you're not going to be using the adct we just make that a stipulation that abut the adct will not be habitable absolutely okay great thank you anybody else have any questions anybody in the public have any questions for this witness please come forward yes please come to the mic this is for a question not a statement right we're from a um my name is the mint I'm from 34 Swan um I just want to would you be kind of spell your name please oh Theory mint t h i r i m y i n t thank you very much thank you um I'm wondering what was the original uh let's say rectangular shape of the original house that you're demolishing and what is the rectangular dimension of the the blueprint if I'm making any sense for the new one what's the comparison like can we get the ex surve to see if she has any numbers on is right there or if you have a overlay of um the old and then the new but the existing house is getting demolished so we don't we don't go and measure it uh but I can tell you the square footage of the existing correct what's the square footage of the existing uh oh building no it doesn't have it on there no we didn't do the measurements for the existing oh yeah dwelling is 1350 the exist isn't it with the first floor and second floor together uh no this is this is kind of like the footprint on the on the lck it doesn't count both floors so the fo print is 1,350 the proposed dwelling is 1,847 correct um I'm on uh 34 side so which is the northern side so can you tell like what would be how many feet would be closer to my property for the new dwelling uh compared to the original dwelling which which side is yours is yours uh mine is a north side I'm on 34 wadel side so on the right hand side so you you are actually with the existing building uh the existing building is much closer than the proposed to your house because the existing building is 4.25 to the property line This is the existing house um 4.52 I think I want to stand up there do you see that this number your house is here right on the right side I'm on this on the side okay so the the left side here is 2949 can we get the other the proposed Dimension here is 15.5 so about 29 like about 14 so there is a 10 10 foot difference I think between both 29 originally is 29 and now it will can can you please stand by the mic just so we can capture your voice that's okay um I'm trying to clarify uh originally it was 29 ft away away from my property and now it's 14 now it's 15 15 okay all right thank you thank you does anybody else have any questions for this witness floor to call my last witness my planner Nick graviano thank you amen good evening Mr Graziano would you please uh state state your name and spell it for us please yes my first name is Nicholas with an H last name gravano g r a v is inv Victor i a n o thank you Mr Graziano do you swear or affirm that all the statements and testimony you're going to give the board today will be true accurate and complete I do consider yourself under oath thank you thank you Nick can you please provide this board educational credentials and whether or not your license still good standing please also name three boards you've been qualified before in the past as a licensed player certainly uh my name is Nicholas gravano and a planner and partner with graviano and Gillis Architects and planners with a business address of 101 Crawford's Corner Road in Hell New Jersey I hold a bachelor's degree from Ruckers University a master's degree in city and Regional planning from Ruckers University a law degree from the Temple University School law where I received a distinguished class performance in state and local government law I've been qualified by this board on numerous occasion as well as over a 100 boards in 18 different counties in the state of New Jersey my New Jersey Professional planner license is valid and I also hold an aicp certification thank you is this as an expert professional plan anyone Bo have any questions or objections regarding this witness there be no objection the witness is accepted as expert professional planning thank you so much Nick did you have an opportunity to visit the subject site yes I had an opportunity to visit this site on two separate occasions uh the first time yesterday and the second time today before the hearing this evening did you also have an opportunity to review this Township's master plan as well as the R4 zoning requirements yes I did can you please walk us through why you believe that we meet the justifications for ratio variance certainly uh the applicant is uh before the board this evening for a specific piece of property known as block 270 1 Lot 21 with a street address of 30 Swan Road um as you heard in previous testimony this is an undersized lot located in the R4 District uh the applicants lot is 85 by 100 8,500 Square fet uh whereas that is less than the minimum lot size required by the district uh which is 9 9,375 Square ft uh the applicant as Mr pada indicated in his intro is also short in lot depth uh whereas 125 ft is required and 100 ft is existing and proposed uh this is a lot uh which uh the applicant has gone through Great Lengths to find uh a development scenario that is one befitting of the neighborhood uh befitting of the site with minimizing the amount of variances being requested before the board this evening uh the applicant is requesting a D4 F ratio variance um as the board knows the applicant must demon rate both the positive and negative criteria related to that variance um the positive criteria relates to special reasons uh those are found in advancing purposes of zoning of the municipal land use law uh this proposal certainly uh advances purpose a promotion of the general health safety morals and Welfare that's done by providing a house built to current code standards as well as bringing a house to the neighborhood which eliminates a front yard setback variance as well as eliminating a side yard setback variance which is currently 4.52 ft whereas a minimum of 10 feet is is required uh by code it also promotes purpose G to provide sufficient space and appropriate location for a variety of residential uses to meet the needs of New Jersey citizens and as you saw through the impeccably designed floor plans and elevations and as well as the building rendering it certainly helps promote a desirable visual environment through creative development techniques and good Civic design and Arrangements uh looking at the negative criteria the applicant must demonstrate that there's no substantial impairment to the Zone plan or zoning ordinance uh the applicant is before you this evening with a single family dwelling which is actually below uh the required habitable floor area number not the ratio uh that's required with this District uh whereas 3,220 ft is permitted uh the applicant is before you this evening with 3,59 square ft whereas uh the forer was also calculated the applicant has a two-story foyer which obviously doesn't occupy any floor space on the second floor but was used in the calculation I would like to also note as you see in the bulk chart the applicant is meeting every single uh bulk requirement except for the habitable floor area ratio so this is a scenario where the applicant is meeting all required setbacks of the the district um so the increased habital floor area ratio is not a result of a building which is outside of the footprint which which other otherwise be required by ordinance I had a chance to look at the neighborhood on two occasions this is certainly a house designed with a character that fits in with the neighborhood the neighborhood does consist of a majority of two uh F two story single family dwellings uh with attached garages U so this is certainly a house which is be fitting into the neighborhood uh so in summary the applicant's request for the D4 F variants uh advances purposes of zoning Ag and I uh without any substantial detriment to the Zone planner zoning ordinance I have no fur questions for does anyone on the board have any questions for this wtes you so if I could Mr gr you're you're opining that the that the proposal will accom the the the proposed excess development here correct it is it'll accommodate it pursuant to the yes I to C Coventry Square case right yes that that is correct you know the F uh variance proofs are similar to The D3 conditional use standards where the applicant must demonstrate that there are no potential ills from the requested F increase I would also like to note that the applicant is proposing a two-car garage and a two-car driveway so as per RSI standards there are three and a half off street parking spaces which meets the code requirements uh and as I stated previously the applicant is meeting all required setbacks uh the applicant is also three foot and change lower than the uh highest uh height permitted by the district so there's certainly no impacts related to light air and open space with the applicant's proposal and you also testified in noine that it's compatible to the other neighborhood yes this neighborhood does uh contain many twostory dwell which the applicant is proposing this evening uh with with attached garages it's consistent with the neighborhood character thank you very much nothing else from the board anybody in the uh audience the public want to have any questions for this witness okay do you want to have a closing statement yes please you want to open it to the public for statement first or we can do that anybody anybody anybody in the public want to make us statement regarding this um application now it's your turn great thank you so much so in the interest of brevity I'll be very quick uh at the end of the day this is a project we're seeking a ratio the ratio has one question one question only that you really should hold in on and that's whether or not the lot can accommodate it as you heard as you've heard from all of our professionals not only can the lot accommodate it we also did a max out what we could have quotequote potentially have done with the bulk measurements as far as it goes with setbacks Building height or floor area we're conscientious of all of that and we hope that your board finds favorable thank you is anybody on the board want to make any statements U we we'll mention that the attic will be specifically that'll be a condition of yeah thank you that's not have yes does anybody want to make a motion I'll make a motion I'll second okay Miss cona yes Miss Yan yes Miss Khan votes yes um Mr Sherman yes Mr Beer yes motion carries thank you so much thank you Mr B have a good night all take care Jackie okay number number four keep it rolling number [Applause] four block 5602 Lot 12 23 Dogwood Terrace application number 2024 31- v23 Dogwood LLC applicant seeks approval for an open front porch Second Story Edition and year rear yard deck in violation of the following sections 1709 99 C2 front yard setback 40 ft required 28.3 ft proposed 11.7 ft variance requested 170 d99 C3 right side yard setback 10 ft required 3.73 feet proposed existing 6.27 feet variance requested 17099 C3 left side yard setback 10 ft required 2.79 proposed existing 7.21 variance requested 17099 C3 rear yard setback 35 ft required 25 ft proposed 10 ft variance requested 17099 C4 side yard aggregate 30% required 133% proposed 17% variance requested 17087 bb4 habitable floor ratio 30% allowed 41% proposed 11% variance requested I have to repeat the whole thing well good good evening again my name is Diana McGovern I'm with the law firm of gasio and pako and it is my pleasure to represent uh Miguel Deon and his family who live at 23 Dogwood Terrace and they are here seeking uh variant um in particular an HF and some bulk variances which by and large are pre-existing to do a pretty much of a mod modest addition to their home um the variances here are driven largely or all all of them are driven by the fact that uh the dilon lot is only 5,250 square feet in an R4 Zone the house is quite small and they seek to add uh to the first floor and area so that they can have a dedicated dining space and then upstairs they just want to add a full bathroom and a bedroom so that Mr dilion his wife and his three children um can each uh live uh as as they would like um the variances that we seek in addition to um the HF which currently the house exists at 30% uh with the proposed addition it would be 41% um we are not increasing the side yard setbacks they are pre-existing in fact you'll hear from our architect that the addition was uh stepped in so that they don't increase or they're not EXA erting the side yard setbacks the rear yard setback is uh created as a result of um the deck uh because of the Topography of the property the deck we can't guarantee that the deck can be less than 36 Ines off of the ground and finally the front yard setback which is largely pre-existing has to do with a small area where it's being squared off in the front to put in an open front porch which is just running along the same line of the front I have two witnesses tonight Mr Deion and our architect Frank Hall so I'd like to call Mr Deion first okay okay um M Mr Deion do you swear or affirm that all the statements and testimony you're going to give to the board this evening is true are going to be true accurate and complete yes consider yourself under oath please say your name and spell it please uh hi my name uh is Miguel de Leon um uh last name d Leon d e l e o when thank you very much Mr Deon where do you live uh 23 Dogwood Terrace and you live there with your your wife and children kids all right and how long have you owned 23 dog um it's two years okay and how long have you lived in Livingston uh two years okay and um do your children go to school in Livingston yes now if you could describe the current house and how it's situated when you walk in the front door what do you have a living room it's it's like a open open coner there's pretty much no no division you know okay but it's it's tiny so there is no do you have a living room and you have a a small kitchen yes and do you have a dining area no it's like pretty much e in kitchen pretty much okay um and where's your current laundry room laundry room is in the basement all right and how many bathrooms do you currently have uh it's two bathrooms a full bathroom and a half bathroom uh two full bathrooms and where's where are they located one is in the uh first and one in the second okay and um are you here seeking to have a master bedroom I would love to get a m okay so you and your wife would like to have your own bathroom away from the kids yes all right and um also I saw on the plans there's a laundry room proposed for the second floor yes um in terms of the neighborhood and the your neighbors to let's start with the neighbors to either side is your house smaller than currently smaller than that houses to either side it's one of the smallest houses in the whole in the in this the block I will say and with this addition um you're will you still be on the smaller side in the neighborhood or will you be similar pretty similar average I would say okay and um are you losing any parking as a result of thetion okay that's all I have for Mr Deone the board may have some questions for you does anybody in the board have any questions for this witness does anybody in the public have any qu questions for this witness okay okay next we'd like to call uh Frank Hall Mr Hall's uh I'll ask Mr Hall you could I think you have to give your name and let me Mr Hall do you swear or affirm that any and all statements and testimony give to the board this evening will be true accurate and complete yes I do please uh state your name and spell it for us please my name is Frank Paul h a l l Mr Hall could you give the board your business address yes my business address is 14-25 Plaza Road in fairon and what is your occupation I'm an architect how long have you been practicing as an architect I've been licensed to New Jersey since 1992 I have a bachelor of architecture from New Jersey Institute New Jersey Institute of Technology 1987 uh my license is currently in good standing with the state of New Jersey and I know you've testified before this board as an architectural EX have testified before other boards in the state of New Jersey and been accepted as an quite quite quite a few yes okay uh we move to qualify Mr Hall as an expert in the area of architecture does anyone on the board have any questions objections regarding this witness there being no objections the witness is accepted as expert in architecture thank you thank you um Mr Hall were you engaged to prepare the architectural plans for this site yes I was and um I think the last date revised was April 29th 2024 is that correct that's correct and that's the submission to the board that you all have um could you please describe the site and the existing structure yes uh as you alluded to this is a property in the R4 District um and is one of the smaller Lots in the R4 District uh it's uh only 5250 ft in area which is 56% of the required uh lot area and it is what generates uh um most of the uh concern about the property uh there's the house on the property is a a cape style dwelling um and it's a small Cape style dwelling most Cape cods universally are at least 24 ft deep and most are about about 32 ft wide uh this house is only 20 feet deep and about 24 feet wide and in fact when you as uh Mr dilon referred to the first floor of his house he called an open concept it I would call it one room it's uh it's n it's 19 feet by 23t is the entire first floor of the house you walk in kitchen area to the left little eating area living space to the right the house really is is Tiny and on this small lot at that size we are currently at 30% habitable floor area ratio so we really have nowhere to go uh to uh to expand the the living space in the house with within compliance with the ordinance um can you take us through the plans that's proposed sure uh I'll be referring to now to sheet a101 which uh contains our basement floor plan and first floor plan Zoom bit here on the first floor plan if I can interrupt you for a second Mr Mr Hall that's part of your uh site plan submission yes site plan submission of of four sheets consisting of t101 a101 a102 and a201 and there's a survey included in that and there's a survey submitted as well with it and that was prepared by Mr Dei if I'm pronouncing that correctly de a d y is the is the surveyor uh uh yes James James Dei or ddy I'm not sure so we Mark that A1 please thank you uh looking at the first floor plan the the the walls that are shaded in are the new walls the uh if you follow my cursor here this is the area of the existing house so the move we made is to add a little bit of of additional house uh to the left within the side yard setbacks just to get the bulk of the house a bit more centered on the lot because we didn't want to have like a a dog leg uh looking house with the addition looming up behind the front of it we didn't want to wind up with something hokey looking when we were done trying to get the new addition the back aligned as much as possible with the bulk of the front of the house we have a new addition at the rear uh which complies with the side yard setbacks we've we've brought the we've brought the addition in within the sidey yard s packs and also uh there is a bedroom and bathroom on sort of an in between level above the garage is currently uh the master bedroom and master bath and it's it runs all the way to the left hand side of the garage here and uh going back to our site plan that area above the garage that that side yard is only 2.79 ft so right now the the left hand side of the master bedroom is above the left hand wall of the garage which is only 2.79 ft from the side Lot line what we've done with our new design is we've eliminated that living space at the edge of the garage we've we've brought the living space in and I will go to our floor plans this takes a moment to shift around as you can see here on our second floor plan this area to the left it says roof below that that's currently all the master bedroom that dotted in area to the left with the little dogghouse door stor at the front we've brought it in significantly and alleviated that um that existence of the living space with a window looking over overlooking the neighbor that's so close to the side Lot line so we've brought all of the uh the new construction within the sidey setbacks as far as the new the new footprint um currently the house has a sort of attic space typical Cape Cod second floor space under the roof with some with some dogghouse Dormers the main thing we're providing here is uh in addition to the rear for kitchen and dining space and the second floor a proper second floor with an 8 foot ceiling uh to provide the bedroom space we've done everything that we can to um sorry going back to my site plan we've done everything anything that we can to make the house as compliant as we can within the constraints of the lot this addition at the rear is brought in to within the sidey setbacks a little bit of addition in the front here to sort of get the bulk of the house centered on the lot and centered with the addition behind it uh is within the sidey setbacks so the the setback the the variances we have here are uh again as as M McGovern said our largely existing conditions we have the sidey setbacks and combined sidey yards where we've actually alleviated some of some of the concerns there also I hadn't mentioned on the on the right hand side of the house where the uh the existing house is particularly close to the sidey in that bedroom there is currently a window overlooking the neighbors and that is here to to the front of the chimney on the right hand side of the house we've eliminated that window with the with the new construction so the new bedroom does not have a window at the side there uh so so none of those walls that are particularly close to the to the neighbors have second floor Windows overlooking the neighbors can we talk about the deck are you ready for that sure uh one of the uh the variances is for the uh is for the rear yard um we're allowed to encroach up to 10 feet into the rear yard into the required rear yard as long as it's less than 200 square feet I believe it's less than 200 square fet and the deck is more more than 36 in above grade well we've we've kept it to a 10-ft encroachment less than 200 square ft and the only reason it's actually still on the chart there as a as a variance is because we weren't sure that we would quite make 36 in above grade what we've done is the the new addition at the rear is stepped down a foot two steps uh to get the back of the house closer to grade and the deck is a couple of steps down from the new addition so we go from the main house down a foot into the new addition at the rear and then down further to the deck at the rear to try and get as close as we can to 36 in above grade is that due to the topography and yeah that the house is as as I I'll go to the uh elevations again the story of of this house is kind of requires me to jump around a bit but if you look at this right hand uh side elevation you can see that the grade drops off a bit as we go to the rear of the house uh so by the time we get to the back of the house the house is kind of high out of the out of the ground so we've again we've stepped the addition down and we're stepping the deck down from the addition to get it back then closer to grade but with that I was afraid we might wind up in the final condition being 40 or 42 inches above grade I didn't want there to be a like a a final Co problem or something like that if it doesn't uh doesn't wind up being exactly 36 in what is the building height the building height is uh a foot less than permitted uh I believe it's 34 where 35 is permitted let me see yes the uh what's permitted is uh is 2 and a half stories 35 ft we are two stories and 34 ft now with respect to the front yard um I think you began to say the front yard is largely pre-existing and you were centering it um what is that area going to be was uh the little bit of addition that that's like a a mud room space coming in from from the garage because there there's quite a bit of elevation difference between the garage and the and the first floor so and are you also adding an open porch in the front we are also adding an open porch uh the existing um front yard is at 34.3 35 ft um and the new open porch is at 28.3 ft we couldn't quite make the um sort of prevailing setback um accommodation because we didn't have the requisite number of neighbors to our right uh we had a we ran into a corner house before we got our I believe it's the three houses we have to have on either side we had them on the left side but to the right side we had house house and then Corner house so we couldn't actually uh you we couldn't actually point to that um so because you've been to the area is this pretty much the prevailing setback in the area it is it is yes and what about the size of this home in comparison to the neighbors on either side is it going to be comparable larger smaller um it will be comparable to the house to our left uh which is a size I able uh recently redeveloped house uh the house to the right will be larger than that house because that house is uh larger than our existing house but but relatively small as well and what about the houses in the neighborhood is this similar to what what the proposed addition there there's been a mix of there's a mix of existing and redeveloped houses in the neighborhood so it will be uh similar to most of the U redeveloped houses um could you um the variances especially the habitable floor area that would you say in that was directly related to the size of the property yes if if we had a compliant 9375 ft lot our habitable floor area ratio would be 22.9% um so it's directly attributable to the exceptionally small uh lot in in a district that contemplates uh a 9,37 5T lot where we only have 5,250 to work with in your opinion is this an aesthetic upgrade to the home uh yes I keep trying to get to the elevations and I I I think that what we've um prepared for Mr dilon and his family is a uh a classic style house uh it's of a traditional style um sort of federal style if if you will we have some um I know there some concerns about habitable attics the we have some little Dormers up the attic level they're they're really decorative uh under this hip roof there really very little space it'll be uh only a pull down stair no no habitable space up there uh but uh I I think the the nice open porch at the front which adds something to the kind of neighborliness of the house is beneficial to the streetcape combined with the um I would go so far to say stately uh traditional architecture um would be a an aesthetic benefit to the neighborhood do you see any negative impacts to the neighborhood uh no I I I see this as as largely making several moves to ameliorate some existing negative impacts Visa V pulling in uh living space from the side Lot line um improving the the appearance of the home uh would you say it's I think you told me when we were preparing that it's bringing the house into conformance with modern living standards would you agree with that I would agree with that yes we don't do too many homes these days where you have a little 23 by9 first floor I have no more questions I think the board probably does anybody in the board have any questions for this witness and you did say said the attic there's no Living Air space or no living space whatsoever I have a question so oh thank you I think that you put together a really thoughtful plan for the lot size so thank you but I do have a question about the two front yard setback numbers um we have 34.351340 4.35 setback correct correct so it's just the porch really that's yes where you're getting the 11. nothing we're not building anything that's any closer to the um front lot line than the existing 34.5306 not the porch it's 34.351340 sort of scale out pretty well so um there seems to be a little bit of a conflict um difference I believe between grade and uh average okay so because of the slope in the back correct okay that's what I wanted to confirm anybody else have any questions M McGovern if I might uh based upon Mr Hall's testimony Mr Hall you've determined that the reason for many of these variances is because the pH because of the exceptional narrowness and shape of the lot is that correct that's correct and that you've made a determination that the purposes of the municipal land use law would be Advanced by a deviation from the zoning ordinance uh and that there would benefit from a deviation if approved is that correct that is correct sir and you've also in terms of the habital floor area ratio and the habital floor area you've determined that um the proposed dynamics that you've discussed will accommodate the uh the this this proposal and what's going to go on and also will be compatible with the neighborhood is that your opinion as well yes it is thank you does anybody in the public have any questions for this witness anybody in public like to make a statement would you like to make a closing statement just briefly thank you um the current house is undersized with limited functionality on an undersized lot the proposed addition is in keeping with the current setbacks on the side and the architect has even stepped it back on the sides um with the small area and the open front porch um largely the front yard set Park back stays the same with the exception of the open front porch uh the appli can seeks to have a master bedroom with another full-size bathroom and a kitchen that has a dedicated dining area area This Modern uh addition modest addition requires a inhabitable floor area variance due to the undersized lot we propose that the addition will create no negative impact to the neighborhood and will actually be in keeping with the size and the styles of the home in the neighborhood and will be an aesthetic enhancement to the house and the neighborhood while bringing the house into conformance with modern living standards we submit that the proposed variances will enhance the Aesthetics and promote the general welfare and have no negative impacts on the surrounding Properties or or the Zone plan anybody on the board want to make any statements would anybody like to make a motion I'll make it I'll second it okay all right Miss Khan votes yes Mr Sherman yes Mr Kenya yes Miss Yuan yes yes Miss cona yes Mr Beer yes motion carries good night thank you thank you have a good night thank you thank you very much uh Mr chairman at this time I'd like to have um Miss Khan call the first matter which was scheduled for this evening surely Miss Khan block 2602 Lot 29 35 Sycamore Avenue application number 202 24-24 DV TR owners realy LLC applicant seeks approval to construct a new single family residence in violation of the following sections 17098 C2 front yard setback for 50 ft required 38.8 ft proposed 11.2 ft variance requested 17098 C4 rear yard setback 40 ft required 18.7 ft proposed 21.3 ft variance requested 17098 cc3 habitable floration itio 21% allowed 34% proposed 13% variance requested good evening Mr chairman Elizabeth derkin from the Durkin firm on behalf of the applicant uh unfortunately we're absolutely they're here this evening at this point asking for an adjournment to be carried to the September meeting because our planner has a conflict and he's been in norc he was supposed to be here first so we do not want to proceed without our planner we think that's important testimony so we respectfully request to be carried to the SE September I think 24th meeting if I C calculate the dates correctly Mr chairman that is the date um just know for the record that there is another attorney that's present for this matter yes um I would like to I know there's objectors um do you agree to that date uh who the attorney is or the obors hi good evening to the record my name is Lisa John BOS I'm with the law firm kza shahin and Jan tamasi I'm representing the PE who directly about the subject property the rear um there are items that I would like to have worked out with the applicant before tonight but yes we can uh we can adjourn to September 24th um there might be additional objections that we have which were already noted in one of my letters as well as some revisions to plans that have been filed to date but yes September 24th is fun thank you okay Mr chairman I might not Council for the applicant and Council for the objector have been trying work with each other to coordinate certain dynamics of this application to see if we can resolve it so and I thank them for their efforts okay and just for the record there's no further noticing required on behalf of the applicant that's correct okay okay therefore this is a journ to September 24th we said right wonderful thank you so much appreciate your time this evening okay thank you anybody else here thank you for your understanding everybody nothing speaking e okay we let's let's call the um the last application block 45 lot 616 Wiens Road application number 2024-25 DV Telfer and jod AR aranas um applicant seeks approval for new construction of a single family residence with covered front and rear porches in violation of the following section 17087 bb4 habitable floor area uh 3220 3,220 ft allowed 3798 fet proposed 578 fet Vance requested okay welcome thank you hello good evening board members thank you for your time tonight I am jod arenus Telfer and this is my husband Ian Telfer and um we've been living at 16 Wan's Road since 2006 way before we had kids would you mind if I interrupt you just for a second all right I need you to go back for the record and and you've already said your name just spell it for us t as in Tom e l f is in Frank e r Telfer and your sir T Ian Telfer okay okay are are either of you going to testify uh yes and we brought I'm going to do this all together yes and if you can identify yourself please and spell your name is it it's good uh Daniel duet um licensed architect state of New Jersey I've appeared before this board okay before so do all three of you yes swear or affirm that any statements or testimony give to the board this evening will be true accurate and complete yes I do yes Mr architect would you please State your qualifications for the board thank you um so I've appeared before this board before I see some new faces I haven't been here in a while uh practicing uh architecture in this area for over 20 years I primarily focus on residential architecture uh my license is in good standing and current and um I'm here to represent uh my customers okay does anyone on this board have any questions objections regarding this witness there be no objection the witness except as an expert in architecture now back to you thank you so as I was saying um Ian and I have lived here since 2006 in this same house 16 wi's Road and before wa before we had children we decided to say now we have twin sons that go to rer Hill and um we decided we are going to stay in town because it's a great town and we wanted to build um on the property that we currently have right now and Daniel we decided to choose a local architects who has done a lot of great projects in town so we're keeping within the town theme and um he's going to help us with this projects hopefully thank you so we're here tonight to seek a one variance uh to uh for habitable floor area uh we comply very much much with the ratio basically we're in the R4 Zone and I have um an exhibit slides that are slightly different from what you're have in front of you so I'd like to mark that into an exhibit A1 would you be kind enough to describe what exhibit A1 is A1 is a series of images photographs um and Architectural renderings and um floor plans that depict our project are you the one who took these photos and prepared these documents yeah I took some things from uh the web so this is the Google Earth image um how many documents are within that exhibit please nine there's nine um and are those exhibits different than the site plan that you submitted yes so that we'll mark this A1 with your permission we'll mark A2 is the site plan that you prepared dated May May 29th 2024 yes and four pages designated as A1 A2 A3 and A4 and that site plan is based upon the survey information which was prepared by PX surveying and environmental covenants Consultants rather yes all right which the those two surveys there's two of them will be marked A3 and A4 and the final is we have four sheets of photographs of of the property and the dwelling with one showing the adjacent house did you take those photos I did and they are accurate of the images yeah they are accurate uh they depict exactly what's there so that'll be A5 if I'm doing this right Thank you very much thank you uh so we are located in the R4 Zone um however as you I guess we heard a lot of R4 cases tonight R4 the minimum lot size is 9,375 uh the ters have 19,000 and 834 so we're almost 20,000 squ foot so we're uh a bit of an anomaly but uh I can show you on on their street on their side of the street all the all the lots are pretty big so we are seeking to build a new home and and I'll take you through the floor plans uh but the number that we're looking for is um [Music] 3,798 so we're 578 ft over the 3,220 which is the maximum you could have uh so they give you the maximum of 3,220 but they also give you a percentage 30% so when you look at the 30% we're way underneath that so we're we're we're at 19.14% that we're we're seeking uh so I'm going to show you that the house as as we designed it and as presented fits very well on the site there's plenty of open air space um there's actually only uh one tree that needs to come down as a result of this project and I'd like to take you through it so basically this is a Google Earth image just showing the the street our home is this box currently that there's an existing house on the on the lot that's was built very tight to the to the side Lot line so uh we have plenty of room uh to build to the to the left so that's the Google Earth image then just give you a flavor of of the Zone uh that we're in so we can see we're on wnis and the homes on our side of the street and across the street are are fairly significant in size if that red box is ours and we're at 20,000 they're very similar size home lot sizes on that side of the street so we happen to be you know when they take a Livingston or any other town and they create zones they can't carve out special situations that will happen like on this street versus some of the other streets so we feel like we're Mis zoned obviously because of our lot size however um I uh it will fit very well on this site so our next image is of the existing site plan and the proposed um so I could show you that but we don't need any bulk other bulk requirements the sidey yard setbacks the height um any other issues and again we're the lot is probably 200% larger than than what's allowed and I'd like to just show you the floor plan I don't want to spent too much time on the plan but I want to show you that we spent a lot of time on it meaning that obviously we had this significantly sized lot and we started to design a perfect home for them and so we didn't need a living room we didn't need a dining room so we we've basically if you look at the floor plan it's um you can see it basically you have a two-car garage they give you 450 Square fet free for a garage which is kind of small it it's 21 by 21 so we're looking for 21 by 24 so there's some extra square footage there but not much and then we have uh side entry mud room a small food pantry we have a kitchen and we have a combined dining breakfast room and a family room and then on the first floor uh a guest bedroom bath and closet so nothing excessive nothing more than than they need and of course when we designed it all we designed it from an ergonomic point of view okay okay what's the right size for counters and aisles and tables and the family room without having to add like a lot of other spaces so the first floor I feel is appropriately sized um for the rooms that we need and on the second floor three children's bedrooms and two baths and neither one of those are anything more than than I guess uh a nice size not huge like the master bedroom 16 by 16 um they're going to share a closet and of course their bathroom the kids bedrooms are 12 by 13 and there's three of them and we have a laundry room so again nothing over the top in terms of our needs but it felt like this was the appropriate this is how we wound up at the 3,798 is through the design process um and then what I thought was very appropriate was the style of the home which is when we talk about F what we worry about is how big is this house on the lot and so one of the ways to minimize how that feels is through the roof lines and making the second floor not as big as the first floor and so we did a I think a very nice job of artfully doing the roof lines uh and breaking up the massing of the home so it's not a big Square I I I I think it has a lot of movement and the masing is appropriate and we made obviously we work with the setbacks on the right side of the home is 10 ft on the left side is 36 ft so the home on the first floor is 53 feet wide which is we could go to about 70 but we chose to do a side facing garage not a front-facing garage so it looks a little bit more elegant from the front not to see the two garages which kind of Shrunk the width of the house which is a good thing look at Mass like massing on the street and massing the other homes so I did want to show you that we put a lot of care and thought into the to the architectural style of the home I think it's going to be something obviously for the ters to enjoy but I I believe it'll be a positive impact to the street and the streetcape uh some perspectives of what we could expect to see so the top left one is a view of the front right um cute little open porch and again I try to bring the roof lines down to create um a smaller feel uh to the look of the house and then on the top right you see the front front left corner where the garages are so again we push the second floor back we create these cute little roof lines a Charming little side entry so we're we're proud of the design and uh with our porches and cover porches in the back we feel it's going to marry well into the landscape you know it's not going to look like this box that landed this diagram you do not have and this is a diagram that I wanted to illustrate because I think the issue here is uh well we have a 20,000 foot lot but we're only allowed 3,220 in in the R4 zone so what I did here which is kind of interesting I'm showing this diagram to the left is 11,000 OT lot which would yield you 3,220 square ft and then I I proposed this little box here which is a footprint uh that would accommodate a 3,220 ft home you can see uh just as a diagram the amount of house per lot and it doesn't you know it fits and it this is the expectation that most homes would would reach and then we get to our diagram we could see how even though the house is 500 foot 578t larger it sits much better on the ters lot obviously because they have uh much more backyard bigger sidey yards and one interesting development that I discovered when creating this diagram if I took a 75t lot wide lot and I kept a 10 foot and 12T I would net a 53t wide house turns out our house is 53 ft wide so in terms of like what people would see when they dve down the street it's uh 53 ft wide 53 ft wide which is what you would get out of 75t line or 100 so I felt like it was appropriately masked for the streetscape um can we want that as an exhibit yes we don't have that one yeah this will be submitted that's part of the A1 correct part of the A1 okay all right if if I don't know Miss Hollis do you have these exhibits no Jackie no no so would you be kind enough as a conjunction with this application to present whatever the required number of exhibits are to miss Hollis please yes right thank youil so that was a a visual uh for me you know because numbers are sometimes uh misleading so for me as a visual aid that was um helpful for us the other thing that was also helpful is to look at the R3 because obviously we're 20,000 squ fet so we're somewhere between a R3 and R2 so I did a quick I'm not a mathematician but I did a quick average of the different zones okay so in R so we're somewhere between R uh2 and R3 we're 20,000 if you take an average of okay the max you could have in the R2 was 18% the max you could have in the R3 is 21 and I uh did the math it comes out to the average would be 19.5 so we're under that we're at 19.1 and if you look at okay the maximum you could potentially be allowed to have on a property it should also be like a averaging out so basically it comes out to 4,195 square feet that's appropriate massing for uh the size of lot you have a scale so we're under those two percentages and numbers for our ask which which is uh 19.14% and 3,798 ft uh lastly really quickly sorry uh I'll just two photographs one is of the current situation uh this is the house that will be uh knocked down and the one tree that has to get removed is the one to the left and all the other trees in the backyard um there's no tography change there's no elevation change so we could keep every other tree and every other um grade the same so there's not a lot of uh site work that needs to be done and then this is a colorized rendering of our Pros house how it sits on the property so plenty of air open space and light and obviously I think there's a the positive is update modernize develop the property in a nice fashion without any negative uh aspects that would come from this and of course uh we have a big audience and basically I think and I I could be wrong uh but it's about uh drainage and uh controlling our storm water so obviously we have the engineering department to satisfy um so we'll address all those issues let thank you thank you anybody in the board have any questions for this Witness does anybody in the public have any qu oh I'm sorry I didn't hear I should speak speak up um I have a question the foer is it open to the second floor yes uh when you calculate the floor area um is that area uh count it once or twice you got to count it twice in L okay um another question is on your zoning table uh you said the first floor is 17005 yes second floor is 20 22.6 yes when I add up it's not 3798 it's slightly smaller so could you explain like what's the actual what is the math on that one sorry so I'm looking at 30 3,7 20 we might get we might get D for the garage but uh so basically the 3798 is the number that we should look at right yeah because the garage uh they give you a credit of 450 and our garage is 524 so there's a difference of that 75 ft I see okay thank you good that's my question we felt like all right we're going to do it let's get a garage that you can open up the doors yeah now does anybody in the public have any questions please come forward hey there can you hear me okay is it good now now good hi um thanks for letting me speak my name is Alan Baron I am here with my wife Melissa Jacobs uh we live at not um B Ren a l a an her last name is spelled Jacobs j a o BS we live at nine Claremont um we share um the back property line with 16 wiins I would estimate roughly around 30 35 ft of that back line we share um we've lived in Livingston since 2003 so what is it like 21 years um yeah so that's my my intro anything else you need to know about me or is that sufficient no that's more than enough I had a few questions just for clarity that we couldn't figure out on our own looking at the plan so if you could help us with those I want to put my glasses on so I can get those um in the 30 in the 3798 Ft being sought um I think you just sort of maybe just answer that that doesn't include the 525 garage correct it includes 75 Square ft of that of this of the 525 um that does does that include or not include the covered porch does not what's the square footage of the covered covered porch uh in the rear of the home yeah I can do that I hope I can do that yes uh the rear covered porch um which does not count as f is 16 by 14 or 15 I apologize 16 by 15 16 by 15 and then there's an additional patio correct uh there will be a patio but that's outside the the 3798 yes okay okay great um the other question if you if you know the answer relative to kind of the impervious surface area of what the house has today versus what the new house has you know what the before and after is on that by chance uh I don't know if I could run the differential from lck coverage at the moment um I don't know that number do we know that number I don't know the new impervious coverage number okay I'm guessing probably before it was oh I want to guess so it would be interesting to know that difference yes of the footprint um that's great so yeah and and I guess my my number well let me just start with a real quick statement um we'll do the statements at the end atend is only questions right now okay only question get you back up later okay can I ask you have more questions go ahead can express concerns or just questions just just questions Express concerns will be during the stat just questions okay could you could you um I Heard the board say that for variances you really need to explain why you want the variance the reason for the variance could you just help us understand again why the variance from the 3220 to the 3798 like absolutely what's the driver for that uh the driver is the lot size right so um when we uh working with a blank piece of slate or a piece of property uh of course the step one is we look at zoning and then we say well uh 3200 would be a big home on a 9,000 foot lot 3200 would be a very small home on a 20,000 foot lot so then there was like okay do we uh go crazy and we're allowed to go almost 6,000 square feet no that's not appropriate you know we could go to 30% of the lot is is also um an F requirement so really we said to ourselves let let's give a house that's not too big that's fits our needs well so again like nothing excessive um in terms of the living space that we so that was the driver the design and then given that luxury of having 20,000 foot lot allowed us to get to a home that we're really really excited about without uh I don't think uh being obnoxious to where we are so is is a is a variance to the R4 R4 rating also being sought then uh I'm sorry variance for is the zoning variance being sought as well yeah the zoning the habital floor area H habital floor area no in addition to the floor area are you looking to change the Zone from our no because that's what that exhibit seemed to say you were trying no I would say that uh like I guess my comment is that um we're not the lot size of an R4 so to um yes we we designed for the lot you know taking into consideration the zone of course but um it's really driven by the lot size okay okay that's all the questions I have we had some other concerns to share but that one fair enough thank you anybody else please come up Hi how are you I'm um I live in 18 winess room name my name is chiru Regina Lee and I just have question about one of the uh slide that he showed earlier which is not including in the baggage that you could go back to that compared uh two houses next door I'm happen to be that house oh I wasn't sorry I I I'll show you the exhibit but I wasn't comparing your house to the tel home it was yeah can you show that picture that might be misleading M Ali could you spell your last name please l e simple all right that's good yeah that's uh yeah the green one the pink one is uh my area which is in 18 winess row uh the the picture of the house is not correct my house is much way smaller than that show it's like a onethird maybe I just want to let you know it wasn't correct comparison that's why I want to identify that's all I want to say and I do have comments later I think I should speak later right okay thank you basically that it wasn't a comparison of your home okay it was a comparison of a generic lot that's 75 by 146 it just happens to be drawn in your direction but it's not your home no he was yeah he was implying that this is if the lot was a standard R4 Zone yeah and a standard house that fits on that lot in the pink is what it would look for it happens to be drawn on the left you could have driven it drawn on the right too it wasn't depicting your home yeah it's just depicting what a standard Zone house right okay yeah kind of confusing I just want it's not the correct size that was representing thank no problem would anybody else from the public like to ask a question will let just go back here yes please sorry about that thank you course so in the in the exhibit with the the lot sizes there are a few other Lots with similar size right I think lot six and lot four and then across Lot 24 I think are are also very large Lots yes so uh what is the size of the houses uh on those lots the only house that I was able to um examine was I think it's uh 24 that did a sizable renovation no one I haven't seen too much uh rebuilds yet uh on that street just just one so far so the the sizes of those homes are roughly about 1,800 I would think to 2,000 so at 3790 this would be bigger than the biggest on the street on the street Yes except for probably 24 um is a big home 24 is not big look big to me um again I looked up the records that had some old you know it was I'm not sure when it was done but the Zillow and things have it at a very low square footage but it's a pretty big house um on the street okay thank you I have a question too I'm sorry okay um what is the height of the attic the height of the attic it's uh I can tell you what the height is we don't have any uh again just a pull down staircase to get to it so there's there was no discussion about ever using the Attic So it's uh I'll get you the height so we we can ulate that the attical remain unav yes correct and the height of the building is 32 and then just one more question what is the current square footage of your house I had about 1500 I think it's 15 to 1700 okay thank you okay any other questions from the board no other questions from the audience the public I say okay um would anybody in the public like to make a statement line up seems to be a few you'll have to get sworn in so please would you be kind enough to state your name and then spell it sure Richard heler h e l l r I'm here with my wife Judith heler and we live at 11 Claremont Avenue which is directly behind the subject house we're in Block four 005 lot 20 all right Mr heler any statements you make to the board this evening are going to be true accurate and complete yes they will consider yourself under oath please Okay so we've lived in Livingston for almost 33 years I'm an attorney by trade my wife works for the township of Livingston um we oppose the variance of the 578 ft of habitable space it's 18% over the R4 limit of 3,220 Ft this would make it the largest house in the entire neighborhood we're talking about Winan's Road Baldwin Terrace Mount Haven uh Claremont Avenue uh someone on the board was asking about the sizes of the houses it's it's public record 18 Wiens Road next door is 1,323 uh 14 winens on the other side of them is, 1400 Square ft the largest house on winens road is one of the remodeled houses is 3,175 square ft there are no houses over the R4 limit all the houses in the neighborhood stay under the R4 limit um if if we look at the actual size of the of the proposed house it's it's much larger because of the porches uh you know because of the additional garage space um you know the actual size of the house is uh with with the addition is is closer to 4,000 square foot of the proposed house um of the neighborhood there's 88 houses in the neighborhood around that house on those side streets that I talked about Winan's Road Claremont Avenue Baldwin haris Mount Haven the relevant part of Mount Haven that's in that neighborhood and West Mount Pleasant Avenue adjacent on to winens Road on Route 10 there 88 houses if you look at the 88 houses the average size of those 88 houses is 1,784 square ft 72% of those houses are under, 1900 Square fet six houses in the neighborhood have had rehabilitations or Renovations in The Last 5 Years all of those were kept within the the R4 limit of under 3,220 ft um you know we we have concerns in the neighborhood that this would be by far the largest house in the entire neighborhood there's no other house like this house that's being proposed this is a crack in the dam of the neighborhood if this family gets a variance why can't anybody else with that same deep backyard come here and get a variance changes the whole character of the neighborhood one of the things that we're lacking here in Livingston is starter homes for families and if everybody turns their yard their house into a mcmansion this is going to be you know easily a million million and a half dollar house when it's finished it's not in the character of the neighborhood the houses in the neighborhood are all under $1 million houses in this neighborhood um and it's not fitting in with the neighborhood of of starter homes you know in that whole area if you take a a drive through uh the neighborhood um the existing house is listed at 1,470 squ feet um if if they built a house to the maximum of the R4 Zone it would be 220% larger than their current house so if they stayed within the R4 limitations it would still be 2020% bigger than their current house and the house they're proposing is 2585 % larger than their current house it's just a gigantic house for this type of neighborhood look it's a beautiful house I can't say that it's not a beautiful house it's a beautiful house for Short Hills it's a beautiful house for some of the other neighborhoods in Livingston it's not a beautiful house for this particular neighborhood for four people for for for this size house just seems to be enormous for the neighborhood I know the architect was stressing that the house house fits well on the size of the lot what what gives this lot the square footage is not the width of the lot it's the depth of of this lot right so I mean this house does fill a big portion of the street side of the lot in addition uh my neighbor Allan was was asking about permeable you know space because we have we have a water problem on Claremont Avenue whenever there's a large thunderstorm a lot of we're on the side of the Hill the big hill that comes down Route 10 we have a lot of water that comes through my backyard Allen's backyard the people to uh you know on the other side of me 13 uh clarem Avenue the backyard's all filled with water I've built up a kind of a burm around my house to direct the water around my house but I mean they have a large driveway that they're proposing that's that's not permeable that's not there today they share a driveway with the neighbor and I I understand they want a you know they want a driveway but I mean it's a big driveway because it's got to come around the house right and go into the side of the house there has to be room for the cars to turn so it's a large driveway large covered porch large patio in the back that's all water right that's going to come down on especially our three houses that are right behind them so you know I just like to stress we don't believe that this house meets the character of the neighborhood the style doesn't match any house on the neighborhood that's being proposed here most of the houses that are close to them are basically walk up a couple steps it's a ranch it's a onlevel ranch house with a walkout basement those are most of the houses that surround this particular house and again they're starter homes so uh that that's what my wife and I would like to add to the record thank [Applause] you would anybody else like to come up and make a statement oh come come come on up yeah hi my name is Ray Lou I live right across the street 15 wi road we've been there since 1994 would you be kind enough to spell your name please uh Ray r y last l l ew say it again LW L ew right Mr Lou do you affirm or or or confirm that any statements you make to the board this evening will be true accurate and complete yes thank you you're under oath yes please go ahead okay uh we live directly across the street and uh he's right the house house does not belong it's it's a beautiful house it really is don't get me wrong I love you guys too but it just doesn't fit it doesn't look right and then we've been this since 1994 and we did work on our house ourselves and everything but we never would do something like that that's that's it doesn't belong there it just doesn't belong it's it's it's too big that's that's okay thank you I agree with 100% okay he said roll thank you please should I introduce myself again yes because you have to get sworn Alan Baron oh who you SW me for Mr Baron you understand that you were swarn under oath I didn't swear I don't think so you did know I'm not crazy I I do I do yes okay um I I come here with just one ER of concern and I I just didn't want to say come with a lot of difference um around homeowners being able to do what they want to do with their own property and build what you want to build and I agree with what was said it's it's a it's a beautiful house so I I don't want to weigh in on whether it fits or not fits I did want to speak about just uh the drainage issue relative to what was raised before um I know I reached out to the homeowners I didn't hear be so I reached out to uh Danielle and we had a lovely conversation um if you look at the exhibit on U A1 page 104 just wanted to point out to highlight what Mr heler was showing you if you look at the survey data on the elevation what you'll see is from The Front Street of Winan's to the the back of our backyards over that 200 feet span you get about a anywhere depending on where you measure it a 10 to 15 foot elevation drop um in addition to the drop front to back you'll also see an elevation drop to the right corner or the North corner of the lot so that's very well represented by the surveys and and uh what that just shows you is that like literally 80% of the water that runs off that property um does run into our backyard now over the years we have mitigated that in three ways um there's been a natural burm that was there since we lived there our house was built in 54 we moved in in in 2003 burm has been there that's been one method we have invested a lot in irrigation on both sides of our house to take the water that pulls up in our backyard and circulate it out to the town drain lines that's two and three is the back half of their property is wooded and brushed and I was you know very pleasantly I'm pleased when we spoke um that the footprint of the house that is planned um that they they you know were really just using the front half of of the a lot actually less of the lot than they use today but they were leaving the wooded air and brush and they weren't changing the grade uh or the brush um Mr duven am I saying that right yes yes um relayed to me that there are plans to submit a lot service drainage plan so I was thrilled to hear that we also had a conversation because of the the driveway and the bigger house footprint it'll be a catch for water with less impervious surface uh we did have a conversation about tying in the gutter down spouts in the sump pump discharge um to the the new line that the town ran in the front yards of both wiins and Claremont for water drainage and and I believe you thought that there would be enough pitch uh because you're going uphill to hit that line um I don't know if it's the purview of this board or not but I would like to uh ask the board if you know for whether the variance is approved or even if the variance is not approved to have the tie in of the drain down spouts and some I'll cut this it's not our not your so the engineering department takes care of all the drainage I think as probably Mr Duan explained no additional water can come off the property after any improvements might not deal with the existing water that's coming off but it can't be increased talked engineering and they can do what they can can to help you with the situation yeah the best thing we could hope on whether it's a 3200 s foot build or a 3,800 square is is to have those down spouts and some pump tied in um so that was this just the one thing I was hoping that we could kind of make as a a requirement of that but I I do understand it's the engineering department not not you guys I I get that and they take care of that that's that's their job um and then my last point I just wanted to weigh in and again I'm not going to I don't live on line in we live behind you we're not going to see the house it does look beautiful I'm not going to weigh on on whether it fits or not but I will um support what Mr Heller said around over the years there's probably been uh and I have the detail if the board if you want it I'll give it to you that's fine but there's about been six homes that have been completely rebuilt and remodeled um there's uh 24 wiins there's nine Wiens there's two on Mount Pleasant and uh there's the corner Laine on Baldwin Terrace all of those houses three of them are are uh 3100 F feet in change and then the other three are in the high in 2600 to 2800 and I have the details on those my only point being to that is that um other other folks on on both Wiens and in the neighborhood have been able to Do complete rebuilds into beautiful homes and somehow fit it within uh the 3220 that's allowed and I I guess my only my my last point to the board is that it feels like it's uh what's being asked for is more than just a square footage increase but but rather what what's really being sought here but not asked for is uh a fundamental change to the R4 Zone um which is what they're trying to kind of accomplish and and and work around so I I I think there's a lot of opportunity to build a new house um you know one of my questions for why you need the variants which I would have loved to have heard today but I didn't which was what's the compelling reason uh that you needed to go to 2800 s ft versus 3220 um what was that drive that made you need that extra 600 foot and not stay within the R4 requirements I didn't really hear that today um if there was some really compelling reason you know I don't I don't know you know an in-law is moving from out of town and you need the extra space something like that I think I could have uh it may be more understandable what was being asked for but it feels like it's what's really being asked for but it's not being asked for is a change to the R4 Zone but I I'll leave at that thank you thank you would anybody else like to make a statement Le it's me again um I live in 18 w row Livingston and uh my name is chiru Regina Lee I want to make some statement I have leaving I I just I have to ask you a question first sure do you swear or affirm that any statements that you make to the board this evening will be true accurate and complete yes consider yourself under oath thank you yes thank you go ahead and I live in uh 18 W since 1992 for a longest time and many of our house did remodel I my I did some um outside work inside work that's it and my sister live in um 25 winess row her uh she's 041 acre and her uh her uh her house only 2020 something square foot uh footage she read a model seven years ago and most of our house is within our for Zone and um Stander so I do think that the variance is too much for the our street it doesn't fit our character of our street and um our street is very cozy starter home style and also we have been um hit by the rainstone although my house was infected but all our street um our street neighbors has water problem on 20 uh on WI Ro already was lost so much land to the building itself we create um we change the Contour of the N nature Contour the the uh the land of course with the this much of variance it will make it even worse in addition those um porch was ENC counted and those uh dryw was ENC counted I think that will create a huge problem in our street are next to our street on Claremont and I really kindly want um board member to reconsider and let them scale scale down the um the the remodeling within our uh our for Zone allowance sorry my S is tied and I really want to wish them a good luck and I really love the design however it's really not fitting in our street neighborhood I we have all that wi stro neighbor here to supporting my statement and um I think there's more people want to say something but I didn't want against you but it was that variance way too much for our street and just want um Everybody understand that thank you for your consideration good evening good evening I'm an Wilkins an NE w l k i ns from 20 y n Road my parents uh bought the house in I think 197 wils oh I'm sorry let me get you under oath all right do you swear or affirm that any of the statements you're going to make the aboard this evening will be true accurate and complete absolutely consider yourself under oath my parents bought the house and I think 1975 or 1976 and I have since taken over ownership of the home uh we live on an absolutely wonderful block I think it's the best block in Livingston it's made up of predominantly postor War II homes Ranch and raised ranch homes very simple um and I support everything Mr heler said um I feel that this home will destroy the character of our cozy neighborhood when I first heard that this house was being built I was so excited because any renovation does help the entire neighborhood and we've had three Renovations on our block and they're beautiful well except for 24 I think it's too big even though it's within code uh I mean it is it's really really too big but it's it's still no variances um this is just it's ostentatious it's just it's just too big for our neighborhood and again I love you folks and I hope you get the house that you really want but I think it's a little selfish to impose this big home on our neighborhood and I know you don't deal with water but please have mercy I flooded two times in the past three years you can check with the fire department I had 24 Ines of water in my garage 8 Ines in my walk-in basement the previous time I had 36 Ines in my garage and 12 in my walk-in basement I lost my car to the flood we do have a water problem it goes from east to west and north to south because we're in this crazy crazy topography where the water flows in two different directions we get flooded we need more trees we need more grass we don't need more asphalt um and I think that's all I had to say thank you so [Applause] much hello hi there my name is Elena iolo and I live at 7 wi's Road you your it's e l n a i p p o l i t o thank you do you swear affirmed that any statements you make to the board will be true accurate and complete I do Mr Alo consider yourself under oath I just want to reiterate what my neighbors are saying I don't believe as it's a beautiful home it just does not fit the neighborhood it's it's a monstrosity you'll drive down the street and all you see is this gigantic house and the rest of the homes are nice simple by levels that's all I have to say okay I wish you luck [Applause] okay anybody else at this time okay I would like to make a statement would you like please yes am I allowed yes yes you can good yes I get it uh no one likes change and especially when we don't uh know what's coming um and when we say well first the easy thing is when we get to redevelop a property the engineering department Livingston engineer department is tough and so you could guarantee that whatever situation existed gets at least for 161 is like zero runoff right we're not allowed to create any more runoff uh things so the the benefit of of of development is engineering wise is we get to control 100% and will be under the um guidelines of the engineering department so uh I know that might not make you feel better or warm and fuzzy but for sure now where drainage is not controlled it goes wherever it wants to go now we are have to control it so there's a positive aspect of development when I look at uh this project and of course when I designed it I didn't want to make a big house and when I realized oh my God it's only 53 ft wide I can go to 70 I can go to 35 ft tall I could not do any of these Breaky roof line cute things so to be um well to protect the this this design I think it is really appropriate 50 ft wide not that tall not 35t tall and with the sensitivity to the roof lines and architecture um I think you'd be really happy now when you look at the number and that's all we get to what's the difference between 3200 and 3,800 well 6 almost 600 square F feet you won't see that in the front and certainly so no no one uh on either side would be negatively affected by the size certainly the front and no one in the rear would be negatively impacted by the square footage so we could go back and we could take a scalpel and we could take out a square footage but you won't you wouldn't as a neighborhood reap any benefits of a slightly smaller family room or slightly smaller kitchen but of course as a design uh we would feel it impact wise so for sure for sure from a architectural testimony that this fits this neighborhood which is charming um you could be sure that that's it's not a monstrosity it's not a MCM this is a wellth thought out plan that uh I think the you're talking about 20,000 ft lock um and we're only at 19% we're a very very very low percentage so I get your concerns um but I would be very proud to see this house get built thank you thank you I'd like to hear from some of the members of the board oh wait I think we have someone else please come forward yeah and got listen to him first you got to listen to me first would you say your name and spell it please my name is Judith heler J T h e l l e r Miss heler do you swear or affirm that any in allal statements you make to the board this evening will be true accurate and complete I do consider yourself under oath thank you very much I'm very happy that the architect is so happy with what he's created um I don't understand the compelling reason or the hardship to be suffered without the extra 578 Square ft as I understand it this is not a zoning change it is an R4 lot it should com it should stick to the rules for an R4 lot I don't care that it's bigger than that that's not the point here um and I have not heard any hardship that would make this a compelling reason to add the extra space it's it it just make doesn't make sense to me I think that Mr Baron will also mentioned that he has not heard a compelling reason for the addition uh we know it's going to happen it's going to be at least 3220 we don't understand why it has to be even bigger than that and that's my statement thank you thank you okay let's hear from some members of the board anybody um please if I may please first first of all my compliments to the community members the objetives who have shown so much love everybody has come and said we love you very much we love the design of the house but so I appreciate the the dignity that you guys have expressed and uh and the politeness in your tone as you've offered your objection so thank you for that I think all the points made in my this is completely what I feel I feel that the ordinances have been written out with a certain mindset and they must be adhered to unless there is a hardship and in cases of hardship we do zoning board does consider uh those hardships and approve those applications in many cases uh during my time here I've seen that personally um I fail to see a hardship in this particular application and yes this is this seems to be um one out of the two biggest Lots on this on that block but the fact that it sits in the R4 Zone um I feel if there is no hardship significant hardship then I feel it should comply to the the square footage that the town um asks for that's just my thoughts thank you anybody else so I will just reiterate what my colleague said thank you all very much for coming out and speaking your mind um it means a great deal to us when we can hear from the community and thank you so much for expressing your views in again a polite and respectful way um we've seen a lot of growth in so many of the neighborhoods in Livingston and not all of them have been well received by the neighbors but it's happening all over town and I I understand what you're saying um I think that when the architect does draw the design with the family they have to take into account also the neighborhood and the community and it's a very delicate balance um I understand that this is an oversiz lot but again I think um I forget who said the the bulk of or even according to the the um the plans the bulk of the lot is behind right so your you know your width of your property is not really that large it's really you're the bulk comes behind I agree I think this is too big for the neighborhood um and hearing from what the community and also just experience on the board I do think that this is a tremendous increase and um probably is worth going back and revisiting this thank you anybody else one of chiman um all right well I'll I'll I'll chime in a little bit um as my fellow board memb said this is this is a delicate balance and neighborhoods do change um we do see it all over town and we do do like to keep character but we do like to improve and and move forward I mean we can't obviously say where we were and then you know 1970s as quaint and everything else but um when I did look at the house I was on the street I visit all houses and I went up and down I saw 24 and everything else and I felt this was a little on the larger Sid um compared to what's out there I thought it'll be a little bit overwhelming even though it is a big lot and obviously Lots in the back but you have you do have a wide as you discussed Mr Deon um there's width there which does help a lot but um I yeah yeah there you know there's a lot of bulk looking at the house because of the roof you have a lot of 12 on oneon-one you know slopes and stuff and that starts to bring everything even though you didn't come up to the maximum height I realize that that brings everything up a little bit and starts to make it look that much bigger so I mean you know maybe you could consider you know bringing the numbers down maybe bringing the massing down and you know get a lot closer and maybe by softening a few things you know the public will feel a little bit better about this house and um the applicants can still get you know the Elbow Room they're looking for appreciate it anybody else have any so um yeah so I guess we would like to want talk to them for a minute or yeah yes go ahead we would like an opportunity to uh take everybody's comments into consideration and uh I guess trim some fat okay uh if we could find so yes so if we could uh have a date maybe to get ready for or do we submit drawings first hey Ed could I just say one yes Mr Please add since since you're going back to The Cutting Board and all um if you could also take into um you know consideration the yes I know the engineering department is in charge of drainage and everything else but um on the flip side there is a lot of impervious coverage um you know yes the garage does face sideways which you know you don't maybe see it from the front but if the garage did face forward then you wouldn't reduce the impervious coverage by a lot um so just to keep those things in mind as well if you're going back to the drawing board thank you yeah maybe I'll do some uh engineering drawings uh to show how we're going to do it thank you Jackie one would be a good time or I think they're plotting one second I couldn't oo October 22nd that should give you plenty of time to get drawings updated in approved and how much time do you need before two weeks Jackie two weeks prior so that'll be September 27th or something that should be enough time for you yes yes we'll make it work yes all right so then we'll carry this without further notice required okay and we'll see you in two moments and hopefully we can wrap it up thank you okay thank you very much thank you everybody um that's that's a good point let me just add that if you do re come back without the variance you don't need to come back right right if you still want to try to get a little bit more then you have to come back right okay all right meeting is adjourned thank you