good evening welcome to the public hearing for the township of Livingston Zoning Board of adjustment today is Tuesday December 12th 2023 if you are an applicant for a d or use variance you should be aware that such a variance can only be granted after showing that special reasons for the grant of the variance exists and that variance can only be granted without substantial detriment to the zoning plan of the township of Livingston you should also be aware that in order to be granted such a variance you will require an affirmative vote of five members of the seven member Board of adjustment other variances require a majority of four members to grant that variance if you are an applicant for any variance and your variance is denied by this board you have a right to appeal to the superior court of the state of New Jersey within 45 days of notice of decision and that Court May overturn return this the decision of this board if you're an objector to any type of variance that has been granted you too May appeal to the superior court of the state of New Jersey within 45 days of the notice of decision if you do file an appeal I ask that you please provide a copy of your complaint to the planning administrator Jackie Hollis pursuant to the requirements of the open public meetings act also known as the Sunshine Law adequate notice of this meeting was provided to The Star Ledger and West tics Tribune and a copy was also posted on the bulletin board of the municipal building in addition to having notice posted notice of this meeting was placed on the Township's website members of the public will have an opportunity to ask questions or make statements regarding each application at the appropriate time when the time comes if you would like to address the board please come forward to the front and use the microphone so we can make sure your comments or questions are part of the record we will now call the role Mr nardone here Miss Khan is here Mr bani here Mr freny here Mr Beer here miss F here and Mr Valerio our board attorney is here and Miss Hollis the planning administrator is here thank you if you are here if um if you're here because you're interested in uh 68 Amelia Avenue application number um six Hazelwood Avenue application number 20 23-30 DV those two applications have been adjourned to January 23rd 2024 you're obviously welcome to stay but those applications have been carried over thank you Miss Conan will you please call our first application of the evening sure block 4205 lot 3 13 no I'm sorry block 1704 lot 1989 East mlen Avenue application number 20232 V Gary and Darice tufaro applicant seeks approval for a two-car garage in violation of the following section 17087 e1a accessory Building height 13 ft allowed 18 ft proposed 5 ft variance requested thank you and Mr Beer is going to recuse himself from this application hi Mr Mrs Taro how are you yeah please just hello hello thank you turn on your who's going to testify I will okay raise your right hand you swear the testimony given this matter will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes thank you state your full name and address for the record Gary Taro 89 East mclen have Livingston okay so mrar do you want to talk talk about your application yeah do I represent what uh or talked about you would want to explain the changes from last time okay should I pull up what the changes are however you would prefer to present okay well we made um it's the second one we made some changes to the original drawings that's the first one on the left and the one on the right we took down the height 2 feet and I took the Dormers off so that's gives me just enough room to walk down the middle and to put storage on the sides any lower than that I can't stand up there so um it gives me about this much walking room before the the pitch comes down I think it's dramatic difference what I originally had um other than that everything the length the width is about the same not sure what else to say about it does anyone on the board have any questions for this witness maybe a quick one uh so what is the height now in the center uh 18 that's what I'm uh when you go in the Attic or when you go in the uh Upper Floor there what would be in the center about 8T about 8T then it starts coming down from there so walking space is going to be about six feet right like once you're up there and then um storage will be on the sides so you really can't do anything more than just have a a Runway right and I could just do all my storage on the side rest of it Remains the Same the location of the garage and everything yes thank you I didn't make it longer or wider or anything like that thank you does anyone else on the board have any questions for this Witness I have um I know I know you stated you'd like to see what the neighbors saw at one point what the what's what it it's been a while yes I took some pictures so you could see from my neighbor's yard what it looked like back there if you'd like to see that hard to visual but this is that's from the backyard do can you just turn on the microphone there just so we can capture it for the record is this on hello okay I just want to make sure we're getting it so this is where the arrow is oh that's from the side just hit some sorry so this that's the rear yard from the people behind us and this is a shed that will be removed and um so that's what they'll be seeing side this is my side neighbors that's what's there now so it's basically going to get pushed in a little more away from the neighbor's property um and just be set back a little bit I want to clarify that thank you it's not going to be too much different than what's there now but it'll be away from them a little bit more what the date on the what is the date on the revised architectural plans that you submitted good question we got that send them to me the 1060 is it that's not the revised one 10 10 106 should I show the cut if there's any other questions wait that's okay okay does anyone in the public have any questions on this application would anybody in the public like to make a statement about this application would anybody on the board like to make a statement about this application yeah I'll make a statement so while I appreciate what you did with the the Dormers and reducing the height it's my opinion that it's still too high for a garage um based on the other applications that we see before the township that I've seen um you know we we've we've had some pretty we've had a lot of these come before us and I just you know for a garage I just still think it's too it's too high for an an uh accessory structure just just I'm only one person MH um any lower than that it's going to look horrible there's a lot of garages then I guess in town that look horrible right right but how is that how is that Peak cuz all it's add all I'm getting the variance for is that top point I get it but it's still a variance and whether it's a garage a pool house we see them all the time MH and you know we hear your story all the time only thing that changes are the faces again I'm only one person and I'm just telling you my opinion in my opinion it's still too high and there's a lot of garages in town that don't need a variance mhm and they look fine but that's but it's unusable that's the problem you can park car in there right no it's for the second floor for all the stuff that's in there now got to go somewhere and that's my concern my concern is what's the second floor going to be used for I'm not it's more rhetorical than anything because what you tell me chances are it's going to be different than what you tell me maybe it will maybe it won't be I'm not here to debate that I'm telling you for a two-car garage the purpose is to get two vehicles in there and you can get two vehicles in there without being above 13 feet but without storage so I can't I mean you can get storage in there maybe not storage that you personally would like but there's plenty of garages that are 13 ft that can get storage up there limited limited storage up there so is it the fact that there's a floor for upstairs or the fact that it's it's it's almost a second floor you got a big barn door in the front that's to get the stuff up there yeah excuse me that's to get the stuff up there right so it's it's yeah that's concerning to me absolutely and that could get changed I mean it could be a window it could be but there's nothing that says you can't put it in once you get your once you get your well anybody could do anything after the fact right but you can't if you build it to 13 ft you can't build it higher without anyone really noticing right so is it the fact of the look of it or it's not the look it's the height I'm I'm I'm focused on the height it's not the look of it I you know it's not I'll focus on the height how does the height negatively impact Livingston like how does that in my backyard affect anybody well I feel is if you start using it for storage maybe an office whatever you're going to do with it it starts impacting your neighbors and I look at it from a uh from a bigger perspective of what it can turn into so there only like 6t I I look at it as a garage your goal is a garage for two cars you can get two cars in a garage with a 13 foot high ceiling and still have a little bit of storage up there maybe not the storage isn't conducive to your operation but you can still get storage in a 13t garage yeah but I can't put all the stuff I have if you've seen what I have I have I can't big collection of bicycles and stuff like that I get it and listen I have a to that's limited and I feel your pain and I got three kids and I got all the that goes with it I get it see to me that's a lot less um a lot better looking than what I could legally build I can cut the roof to 13 feet and I could build it 40 feet long legally it'll look horrible I'll just have a flat roof long large building in the yard with storage in the back and it'll be worse for my neighbors because because now it's going to be a bigger structure but I don't need a variance for that but that's better looking you know and it matches our home it makes things look better nobody none of my neighbors object to it and it's just you know it looks right what would if I chop the point off of it it's going to look horrible and uh it's going to be bigger that's 30 feet it may end up to be 40 feet with a flat roof on it maybe a square it look just horrible so I want to keep to a nice look my look my house looks like an old Victorian I want to keep it looking like that and that's it you know I thought I compromised quite a bit I know that looks quite big now looking at that but that's probably a small as I can go and still use it to walk in you know if I walk up the steps and I could stand right and it's only about six feet of walking area till I hit my head would anybody else on the board like to make a statement yeah I mean I would just say I'm uh okay with this I think it's improved from last time I know like the height has only come down a little bit but just the overall density has also seemed to be lessened so I don't think there's going to be an impact on the neighbor um appreciate those pictures and thanks you know I'm in favor of this um I concur with Mr fronty I think you did a nice job cutting back and I've seen your house it's very pretty and I think that'll look nice with you know it'll fit with the rest of the house so I I commend you I think you did a good job I I appreciate you taking the time and effort to scale back the density of this design and you can see like you said when you look at the two designs next to each other it definitely is more modest but I have to agree with Mr nardone the town has very strict rules about the height of accessory structures and and as Mr nardone said we see a lot of pool houses and gazebos and garages um and and the there's a 13 foot require height limitation for a reason um and so I have concerns about the height as well the issue here is that for this type of variance you need five affirmative votes as I said in the opening um and it appears that you don't have that at this time so we can go forward and I know Mr bani hasn't weighed in also but you can go forward and get a vote um or you can withdraw your application how do I get a vote like there's only five five voters here yeah what you should know is that if the board rejects your application you cannot come back unless you have a substantially different application which means you just can't tweak it and come back again so that's what the chair is asking you to assess whether you want to vote now or whether you want to withdraw the application or one other thing I might suggest perhaps the style of the roof is what's causing the problem because you had that Peak and your architect may be able to come up with a different style that reduces it more dramatically but I wouldn't be able to stand that's the problem yeah me I know we discussed a a potential double depth to give you the space without the height as as Mr Valerio said maybe there are some other options or layouts that would be closer to conforming to the ordinance and would get you the space that you need obviously we want to try and help you and get you a workable solution but at least from my perspective this is still the peak is it's the roof is too high can I ask a question yeah of course um if there was no floor it's about the outside of it's about the it's about the height so it's not what Mr is saying being usable space so it's just a look on the outside not the inside like you were concerned about being used for something else yeah but if you don't put a floor you can still put a floor at a later date I mean you still need you still so I'm a builder right it's one of the things I do still got Rafters right so if you don't put ply when you pass your inspections what stops you from putting plywood once the inspectors are gone like we have a ratio variance in town for the the max the ratio of the square footage of your house compared to the size of your lot and that's dealing with the mass this is about the height this isn't about the internal understand so I is there any so there's no height I'll get excuse me there's no height I'll be granted at all if there if you didn't have a height variance you wouldn't be before the board you'd have a permit in your hand right so I couldn't get any amount of footage over 13 we can't say if you if you came back with a smaller height if that would be approved or not if you are at 13 feet you do not need a variance what what we're saying is right now 18 ft is too high for this board well I think I've said it and I think you've said it and I think a couple to be fair to everybody I think a couple people are in favor and Mr bani hasn't excuse me hasn't weighed in yet right but he needs five affirmative votes I got it I think to hear your opinion please yeah just to just wrap things right with everybody's comments no I think uh look I I totally appreciate you're coming back with the adjustments and now it looks much smaller than the previous one uh and you're thoughtful about how it aligns with your home I've driven by it looks very symmetrical but I do have to agree with Miss F and Mr none because our rules are much more stringent on Accessory structures and we need to be consistent IST as well at and at the same time you know we need to see a much bigger picture as Mr naron said so from that perspective I would be also willing to see that you know there is a there is an adjustment of height this height is not something that I would be okay with okay when I have a question when measuring the height what part of the ground do they go by like if if it's on a a hill so that I'm looking at you but I believe it's the average right it's the average height so if you had if you were like this it's not this one or this one they take the average so I just your topog if your Topography is like this right if you're on a slope they're going to take the average the average of your of your topography because I had an idea I wonder if I could throw this by you if if I brought the garage into the ground if you are if I brought like put almost like a b lowered it right into the cuz I'm up on a hill and I brought it down to 13 ft you can't a basement what's that not a basement where I drive down into the garage like I M like six seven feet above the ground level I guess in theory I guess in theory you can do that would they count the garage door side as the height or everything around it I don't know I think you have to you'd have to take that to the the building department if you're considering revising the design then I would I would adjourn the application submit new plan to the zoning officer yeah I'm going to have to revise it it's not going to happen unless you want to unless you want to have a vote and I think we have an idea of how that vote would go or you can withdraw the application and build a conforming garage and and that question you know you can certainly make an appointment and and say conceptually this is what I'm thinking about and they'll help you and they'll guide you accordingly I understand what you're saying but I don't want to give you bad information either I figure I get your opinion if you know a great question but I rather you get it from them upstairs oh yeah answer it was just I'm just brainstorming because I got to think of another way to do it and they might and and look they see everything that comes through town for permits not just what comes for variances so they may be able to give you another solution okay you may build two and a half Cars wide excuse me two and a half Cars wide you have your storage on half a car with we've seen that you just got to get a little cretive I'll work it out I guess we have to withdraw you want journ draw would mean you'd end the application you want toour what we you doing you don't know so Jack what do they have to do to adjourn with no further notice uh we can adjourn this until January 23rd 2024 um with no further notice okay would that work for you as far as getting new designs and and getting it back to me to get on I would make it I would reach out to the zoning to the February what what are we doing febru you're going to need to meet you need to meet as's recommending you're going to need to meet with the building department and get their guidance on how to proceed and then revise your plans and then submit them and go through so I think what your wife is saying is you might want to adjourn to the February meeting as opposed to the January meeting so that you have time to get just in case I want to come back with something else if not I won't be able to no you'd have to provide new notices which you don't want to we were trying to spare you okay that time and effort well probably from here on I'll probably do something within the legal height think about yeah okay okay our February hearing is I have the date here February 27th 2024 so this your application will be adjourned to February 27 2024 and no further notice will be required okay thank you thank you thanks um Mr ran can you grab Mr Beer please I could ask you okay Miss Khan will you please call the next application block 4205 L 3 13 Spalding Drive application number 20234 6- V Mahir shra applicant seeks approval for the construction of a new single family residence in violation of the following sections 17099 C2 front yard setback 40 ft required 35.04.04 right side yard setback 10 ft required 5.33 ft proposed 4.67 variance requested 170 Das 87 l1d front side yard Corner yard setback 35 ft required 26 .97 proposed 8.03 ft variance requested 17087 cc4 habitable floor ratio 30% allowed 34.9% proposed 4.19% variance requested hi Mr sh hello um you oh because they're from who's going to testify you sir yes okay raise your right hand you swear the testimony you given this matter will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes please give us your full name for the record my full name is Miu uh mih R last name is sh shr sure uh so my name is mish um I reside with my wife and two kids in Jersey City right now uh we bought this property back in July uh and we intend to build a single family home uh on it uh instead I'm going to go over uh okay that's okay I'm I'm going to go over some of the documents that are in the packet sorry I couldn't open it up here um but if you look uh at the survey that was included in the packet uh this lot is is a corner lot which basically requires additional setback requirements uh posing difficulty in the construction of the home um so and if you look at the existing setbacks on the lot uh the front set the way the house is placed right now the front set back is 35.7 Ft the side is at 5.33 FT as well as the right side is at 26 ft uh what we are requesting is a front yard set back of 35.4 Ft which is a 4.96 ft variance uh side set back of which is same as the existing thing but a variance is needed for 4.67 Ft uh and a right side set set back which is 26.97 versus 26 which is a 8 ft variance and also since it's the size of the lot is 9415 Square ft uh versus the minimum requirement of 9375 in an R4 uh it barely it's like a small lot it's not a huge lot and hence we are requesting uh HF variance of 4.19% uh which puts it puts us below the 3 30 to 20 square ft requirements for the R4 Zone um also I would like to point out that uh there was a previous variance that was approved on the property in January of 2022 it was memorialized in February of 2022 and it expired in February 2023 uh so we couldn't use that variance to draw up the new plans essentially uh but comparing the previous variance approved with the one that we are requesting the front yard variance was uh approved was 4.53 versus we requesting 4.96 the side yard was 4.78 versus 4.67 and the right side corner side street was 9.05 versus what we questing is 8 ft and and the habitable flow ratio variance is the same like 4.2 and 4.19 so it's consistent with the existing the way the houses place as well as the approved variants and U I can walk you through the plans if needed uh for the floor plans but uh the new construction in the house will have a modern Farmhouse look will be consistent with the other new constructions on the street side street like the kimbal Avenue South ashp Avenue as well as spit and you know the SP Avenue Road at the end of it so um that's the request thank you and and obviously there was some confusion last month about the way your application was handled as far as whether it was a new application or yes an addition I and we clarified that with the you know within the township um but as you said these changes are your the variances you're requesting are in line with the variance granted yes in 2022 by by this board um does anyone on the board have any questions for this witness does anyone in the public have any questions for this witness would anybody in the public like to make a statement about this application would anyone on the board like to make a statement about this application can I ask him a question yes of course turn Mr Shaw is the design of the house the same as the one that was approved in 2022 it's a similar looking house simar yes and is there any physical problem with the property that caused you to it's these very minor changes in the setbacks uh yeah it's the Conor lot and I think uh as I said uh what we proposing is very close to the existing um how the houses and existing houses placed uh it's just because of the corner lot and the site setback requirements we need these variances you never started construction of the house that was approved previously the prior owner prior the prior owner um that variance expired so we couldn't use it and we couldn't use we won't have those plans since with a different architect and all yeah thank you would anyone on the board like to make a statement about this application what anyone on the board like to make a motion on this application I can to make a motion thank you Mr bani um I think this will be an upgrade to the neighborhood uh it is in line with uh the previously approved variance um and with that I uh put a motion to approve the application I'll second it second by Miss Khan okay Mr bani oh yeah yeah let's just clarify um Mr shof is there is there a shed in the backyard I didn't see it when uh it's there currently uh but it'll be removed as a part of okay so we'd like to have that be a condition of the approval and obviously you'll comply with the township engineering memorandum yes great okay sorry that's okay okay um Mr bani uh yes with that addition of removal of the shed you miss KH votes yes Mr nardone yes Mr Arron yes Mr Beer yes Miss F yes motion passes thank you thank you I seconded okay Miss con will you please call the next application loock 1407 Lot 4 5 dothy Avenue application number 20234 7- V Mahir Gupta applicant seeks approval for a deck in violation of the following sections 17099 C4 rear yard setback 35 ft required 22 ft proposed 13 ft variance requested hello hi good evening um should I present it uh you need to be sworn in oh sorry raise your right hand do you swear the testimony given this matter will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes okay giv your full name and address for the record miir Gupta 5i Avenue Livingston New Jersey 07039 okay uh Mr GTA please tell us why you're here today yes so um we moved into Livingston six years back we we love the outdoors we have two kids 13 and9 um we currently if you see the plans we have a very small deck right now it juts out like 2 ft out it really it's a walkway to the patio uh we've tried using the patio for outdoor space uh it's really not been that helpful it's not useful uh and we were hoping to build a deck we've seen other people have decks in the neighborhood we've visited you know friends with decks and we think it's really usable having that outdoor space attached to the house uh and that's the reason I'm here uh we are looking for a variance of 13 ft um you know from the edge of the house to the backyard fence it's 42 ft in total and we looking to build something which is which goes out 20 ft and that's that's the that's the request and what is behind your house so it's the uh on one half of the house on the of the backyard it's it's the neighbor's backyard so our backyard is against the neighbor's backyard yes uh and then the other half I think there's a Waterworks Department there some some public works department office and then you know they have like it's it's a uh it's just lots of trees out there on the other half right um so when when the deck gets built I would say half of the deck would be closed you know it'll align with the neighbor's backyard half of it would be on the other side okay does anyone on the board have any questions for this witness I guess I'll ask a question um I'm just looking at the depth a little bit I wonder if we can go a little less than 20 ft or maybe even make it a little wider if you wanted to it's just scking pretty far it's like halfway into the backyard um just kind of a thought I don't know what my fellow board members think I let me see if I can answer that question uh at least as far as the width is concerned uh we've tried to build as much as possible uh widthwise such that the steps actually go onto the patio if you build it any wider than that the steps will be on the patio itself and you might just have to either shorten that or you know or keep it at 20 and then reduce the reduce the depth of it potentially but you know speaking to the builders they recommended that 20 is maybe the max you want to go at least from a width perspective how deep as is your lot I it's 42 ft right now I think I think it's 42 ft if you look at the not right now but I think that's the it's a it's an angle lot I think it's 41.5 and then 42.5 the average is 42 right so you do have a shallow L it's a shadow out yes it might be worth mention again this this is maybe not not that relevant but if you look at the pictures you will also see that the neighbor against whose backyard this is going to be against they also have a shed there so big part of the deck is is going to be against their shed their shed is exactly in the corner uh right against our backyard does anyone else on the board have any questions for this witness yeah um the house that's to the side where this deck is going to be is it's like kind of like slanted away from your house or like like on an angle um so it kind of looks like that from the picture so if I look at the which one so if I look at the survey yeah well in your photos I guess it's like the white house next door to you oh yes okay so they they built a new house actually that's 7 Dy uh to the right um I think you're looking at the one at the bottom right the bottom picture okay uh that's seven Dy and I think there is enough setback between our the edge of our house and the and the and the uh the border line it's kind of like angled away from your house and what it is angled away yes yes yes okay does anyone in the public have any questions on you're going too fast know he was finished I'm sorry did you prepare the schematic of microphone sorry did you prepare the schematic of the deck no this was the builder it says it's 20 by 20 feet is that correct that's right what's the height going to be three feet one 3 feet 3 feet three feet okay and the railing around the fence what's the height of that 30 it looks like 38 in okay 38 I think that's yeah it's on the next re yeah I would just suggest the condition okay right okay um are there before I move on are there any more questions from the board or Mr Valeria does anyone in the public have any questions on this application does anyone in the public would anybody in the public like to make a statement regarding this application would anyone on the board like to make a statement about this application I I'll just make a quick statement so I think it's a um nicely sized deck for the backyard even though you know you're requiring a variance um I can see where the 20 foot x 20 foot is warranted um I just think it's a nice it'll be a nice addition to the house thank you and I would add you have the hardship of having a shallow lot which necessitates the variance yes absolutely any additional statements would anyone on the board like to make a motion about this regarding this application I'll make a motion thank you Mr nard down eight uh excuse me five Dorothy Avenue um the hardship is you have a shallow lot I think the deck is reasonably sized for the size of your property and I make a motion to approve the application thank you as presented with the condition that they will he will comply the applicant will comply with the code requirements of course sorry the that you will that the applicant meaning you will comply with all of the building codes for the height of the deck and for short abut the railing is there a second second second by Mr Arron Mr nardone yes Mr arran yes Miss conv votes yes Mr bani yes Mr Beer yes Miss F yes motion passes thank you so much thank you thank you before we call the next application um Mr Brown have you had a chance to review the revised letter from the township and we want to know if he has any questions do you want to proceed tonight or do you want to carry to say you can consult with the you know your deck your defense people or well your surveyor Also may want to consult with yeah surve Isen to surve in 24 years we been in the house so not sure that person okay okay so we'll discuss it we have one more application before years I we just want I just want to make sure you had an opportunity to review the letter and make sure you wanted to proceed that's all consist your understanding okay great thank you okay Miss Conan will you please call the next application block 588 1508 lot 7 17 Maple would drive application number 2023 51- v a Kumar Bodi applicant seeks approval for a second story addition in the rear in violation of the following sections 17099 C3 side yard aggregate 24.7 ft required 18.2 ft proposed 2.5 ft variance requested 17087 cc4 habitable floor ratio 30% allowed 44.3% proposed 14.3% variance requested 17087 bb4 habitable floor area 3220 Square fet allowed 3672 squ feet proposed 452 square feet variance requested 17087 E1 D4 accessory structure shed rear yard setback 5 ft required 3.5 ft proposed existing 1.5 ft variance requested sidey yard setback 5 ft required 4.1 ft proposed existing .9 ft variance requested hello bard hello um Mr Valerio will swear you in where is he here raise your right hand you swear the testimony given this manner will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes give your full name Ajit B bodri I'm ring a 17 Maplewood Drive Livingston and the gentleman with you going to testify yeah I'm the architect for the project okay raise your right hand sir you swear that the testimony given this matter will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes and give us your full name record yeah name is Paul U uh register architect of the new J new state of New Jersey and you finish I'm sorry yeah I'm been going for both once so um and you you have been you registered AR how long have you been like in state New Jersey uh since 2010 and your licenses are in good standing uh yes yes and you've have you testified can you name a Township or two that you've testified before their uh yes uh Livingston Milburn um or in Bergen County yeah where where I'm from yeah does anyone on the board have any questions or objection objections to accepting this um then we can accept you as an expert witness in the field of architecture thank you thank you okay so please proceed so uh I am requesting a relief for the variance because of the hardship that we have of having an undersized lot to begin with and also when we bought the property we didn't there was no basement and it was too expensive to put a basement in and uh you know with the pandemic and everything that happened we un we understood the we realized the importance of having a basement and also the how how things are turning out you know we have remote work everybody is most mostly you know we're working from home and both me and my my spouse we work from home so having a dedicated office space or a separation would help us you know um do the best in our jobs so we're planning to add an addition in the back um um my architect will show you all the plans you know what what is required what is what we're trying to do it's not obstructing anybody uh for the view uh per se um and it's also in line with the setbacks um the two variances that was uh actually denied was not caused because of this Edition it was an existing um existing layout the cide aggregate is existing we're not touching that and also the shed is already in place we are not touching that this this so the only two that we're requesting is the HFA and h h h uh habitable floor area and habitable floor ratio and also for the ratio uh I would say because of the undersized lot you know uh it could uh it could impact because of lot it could go down um if it was a standard size lot for us and that's a hard hardship that we are I'm trying to um you know ask your relief and the uh area uh so when we when I uh uh submitted the application I was not aware that there's we have a covered in patio in the back and that is considered Hab habitable and it is added into the habitable ratio which is a shocker to me because it's not air conditioned it's it's hot in summer it's in a cold in Winter nobody can actually habit there habitable there it's not habitable so that actually increased our you know variance request and um and lack of basement and having this considered as a habitable is is is why I'm I'm in front of you asking for a relief and we can go in detail with the plans if you would like and actually I can also show some pictures how it looks like um so this is the I think you have as well too um this is the front of the house uh I don't have a digital in there is first one so there's no digital yeah oh and in the back if you see the back um so this is the this is the covered in porch it is not attached to the it is attached but it's it's not the same Foundation Foundation it's a different cement foundation and the addition that we are putting is going to go in here um so so I can show so Edition go in here because if you see the neighbors property too it it actually got extended all the way here so we we're going to be in line with the neighbors as well and uh and and and complying with the RAR setback as well okay and this is the this the other side sorry let's mark that as exhibit A1 A1 okay if you want to give it up to us yeah and that can be A2 yes thank thank you please Mr beard do you want to ask a question just once I figure out what my question is I'll ask it okay so uh should I ask my architect to continue with or show you the plants yeah thank you he's well he's going continue his presentation yeah that's is the rear is the rear shed going to remain or are you going to remove it that's that's existing and we're not touching that because of this project I'm sorry I couldn't hear you sorry that that is an existing structure this project is not we're not touching because of this yes you can um you want to address the setbacks on that shed because they're different on your drawings than what was put in the application okay um actually now I look they're okay they're right I getting closer to my eyes I can see it better okay please proceed yeah um yeah I'm the architect for the project and I start from the side plan so we are proposing um around like 200 420 sare ft D on the rear and the uh um and the um the Ching going to align with the whatever the the what on the side is we are now going to increase in the WID of the building and also we're going to in line with the setback requirement at the rear so it's not going to encroach into further into the rear yard and that's where the addition is around 420 s ft again and that's a existing house at the front and I think that's a that that's a sh you have problem with before but you know that's existing nonconforming we are not touching that um so the goal the goal for this the goal for this application is to create two study or home office for our for for my client one office will be for himself the other office will be for his wife both of them are working from home so the challenge is how to create those two offices spaces and I look at it's in layout uh I burstone a little bit but I couldn't find enough space is in layout to give land two offices and also keep the four bedrooms which they request four bedrooms because of the size of his family we need four bedrooms two offices kitchen living room family room just impossible to work with is in layout so that's why we we are proposing this 420 square fee to housing all the um requirement that's my Cent request so this is a four plan from the first four let's ex first four on the right and left is what we proposed so what what what we are doing is um we take some of the space f is in living room and create the home office for the uh that's home office we create from theing living room for for the husband to use and we move the living room to the rear that's where the addition going to be at the rear and the rest of the uh spaces a kitchen family room garage mechanical room and one four B are not we are not touching that and the second FL what we did is uh we maintain the configuration of four bedrooms and also we are not increasing we are not putting another beds four bedrooms and one home one one uh study for for for for his wife so this is um the existing second floor this is the me bedroom here another bom here another barroom here um three bom also of course remember original there's a one barroom at the uh at the first world we taking out um and the um for the purose second floor all the bedroom going to be on the second floor all four bedroom going to be on the second floor also we create on this area we say who say study that be his wife's um home office and then the um um the rest of the space we are not touching really at the front most of space we are not touching are the second floor remain as e going back to the elevation elevation will be keep the character of the current house and we are not introduce new style here so it's still using the sand sighing the current house is um sand Roofing uh same style we're not changing to another another uh new style here um yeah so that's pretty basic what we are doing here okay thank you sure would anyone on the board like to ask any questions regarding this application I don't know no I have no questions right now right right now we're just doing questions yeah no questions okay Mr Beer probably more of a statement than a question there I think at this point okay y okay does anyone in the public have any questions yes please come up to the microphone make sure that it's on first I'm not sure if it is it's on okay great so number please state your name and address yeah my name is Pang first name p n g p last you have to speak louder sorry yeah my name is p Wang I'm resident owner of 19 Maple Wood basically the neighbor of 70 maple wood so I really just have one question so uh because I cannot see the the drawing right so really your addition is really just two office right first floor and second floor two office you have a window basically look into our P our backyard the first floor um you're you're excuse me facing the house you're to the right or to the left uh to the I I will miss to the no basically right basically what they they plan to add addition no no we're just clarifying you're if you're standing on the street facing your houses are you're on the right of their house uh it facing on the left side it facing the street on the left side you're on the left yeah this is 17 the streeters left facing on the house right okay okay you're on the side where the work is being done correct okay okay and I'm sorry can you just spell your name for sure first pun p n g last name is w w a n g yeah I got I got a letter that's why okay so so his question is if you're planning to put a window in on that side and go ahead please can you turn it so he can see it yeah that would be helpful I think feel fre to walk see what's going on are you saying put a window on this side and that's a second floor yeah this is the second floor there's existing window right here is existing so we just one more here okay yeah I got my answer y thank you um does anyone else in the public have any questions on this application would anyone on the would anyone in the public like to make a statement about this application so if you have an opinion you'd like to share now would be the time you would need to be sworn in first raise your right hand you swear the testimony given this matter will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes thank you repeat your name again for the rec yeah my first name is p p last name is w w n thank you yeah really the statement just as you know I I have in the LGH right I see there are two variance one is the uh fla ratio the other is the fla area it's really I think it's exceed especially the FL area is like 4502 right I said no in the neighborhood even the new house they cannot exceed 3220 so that's really just my statement and and also you know all the neighborhood there's no basement and and so on I just want to say that so that's it thank you would anyone on the board like to make a statement about this application Mr nardone all right I'm going to start this off you're asking for habitable floor area and habitable floor ratio you're asking for both which here it's telling me the house is too big for the lot that you have now I understand all the nuances with the R4 Zone I get it all I've been here 12 years and my 12 years I've never approved an application asking for both I'm just going to come right out of the gate and tell you that and I'm sure without looking at Miss Hollis that they told you that upstairs I'm positive of it the house in my opinion is too big because you're asking for a double ratio on this lot and you're going to have to do in my opinion and I'm only one vote in my opinion you're going to have to do something to cut back the square footage to to make one of these go away and the chances are it's going to be the square footage however you do it that's my opinion and my comment on your application do you uh yeah sorry go ahead I just want to make make a comment so the reason it's it's big is because um the zoning considered the covered porch as habitable that that is making it I understand all the nuances believe me what I tell you I I get it we have the conversation all night I get it right that is the that is our ordinance just like if you have a double height foyer that counts twice because it's the massing when we and I I don't know if you understand or somebody has explained to you the floor area versus the floor habitable floor ratio variance but the ratio is focused on the mass of the property um as mrone said compared to the size of your lot yeah that's where the hardship is because we are an undersized lot and if it's a regular lot I think that wouldn't be a case if if you're a regular lot right if you're at the 9375 right yeah 9375 you build it to 3220 you're habitable for ratio is still going to be over it's going to be at 30 38% ballpark you're still you're still going to violate it by being within the square footage but at that point we understand that there's nothing you can do you're asking to violate two things that that like Miss F said to the to the mass of the the massing of the house the township the Township's plan master plan and our zoning ordinances are designed to prevent overbuilding on properties and there are two two tests you have to satisfy the maximum floor area the maximum square footage and the habitable floor area ratio and as Mr nardone says the township and this board rarely if ever grants both variances it's if we do it's one or the other because again we understand your property might have a might be uniquely situated or there's a particular hardship that prevents you from satisfying both tests but it's extremely that that we will approve a application that has the habitable floor area variance and the habitable floor ratio variance now as I mentioned at the outside in my opening you need five uh five affirmative votes to approve the ratio piece of this so Mr nardone has given his opinion there are six members of the board here and and obviously you should have an opportunity to hear from other members of the board I know Mr here you wanted to make a statement sure I I kind of lean the same way Mr nardone is um you know if you take off the um the sun room which is while it might be a separate Foundation it's pretty integral with the house you're still over on both so that that gives us further difficulties in you know moving this along the sun room is really you know it's it's really part of the house I understand the difference and everything else but people put in Windows they make it fulltime it's 9 months it's 9month room it could be a 12month room it just you're getting us from both sides I think it's what what Mr adone and uh Madam chair uh has indicated I'm kind of in that same camp too so I understand the hardships and everything we want to have big nice houses but you know it's the next house and next house if you take the sun room off I I think the exception is only for like 120 square foot but you're still over on both that's the problem we you know we could look you look at one you're good here okay that one's over size a lot this but now when you're over both you're over both it's just it's just either it's you're over you're not are you offering to remove the the covered patio I know you said if you removed it you'd still need 12 foot I I couldn't find anywhere a a correct definition of what is habitable in in the whole court so when I embarked on this journey I was blindsided because there's no proper definition of habitable and what I what I searched online was if it's air conditioned tied to the main main house area yes it is habitable in this case it's not so that I went by I took a chance I'm sure I'm sure you had these conversations upstairs did you have these conversations upstairs I did I'm sure you did I know you did I they this application doesn't make it here without somebody upstairs having that so nice to explain so you knew what you were kind of you knew you knew kind of knew what you were walking into well I don't know the outcome but I I just got to try okay yeah no and and we understand and sometimes it's helpful to come before the board and get opinions to know what we will be willing to approve and again you've heard from mrone you've heard from Mr I express my concern about the two um those two variances obviously in my from my perspective the sidey aggregate is pre-existing non-conforming that's not an issue um the shed again pre-existing non-conforming I'm not concerned it looks like your neighbor also has a shed on on that side close to it I'm not concerned particularly about the shed um but I am concerned about the additional square footage um both you know as it relates to the maximum the square footage and the ratio uh Mr bhani mrti Miss Khan does anybody have anything they'd like to sh just jump back in I have it right here habitable floor areas a sum of the gross horizontal area of old stories and half stories of a building as measured from the exterior face of exterior building walls or from the center of a wall separating two buildings there's some exceptions for attics and stuff the habital floor area of the principal building and that of any accessory structure or structures shall be aggregated when determining hital floor area and that's in section 1703 right yeah just I agree it seems too dense and uh imposing on the neighboring property so so it appears if this goes to a vote that you're not going to have five affirmative votes so you can um um adjourn this application and come back with a revised plan we can have a vote uh but again as as Mr Valera has explained to Prior applicants um if this vote is not in your favor you have to you can't just mod slightly modify the plans it need they need to be substantially different there's a legal test so um if you want to move forward I would suggest that you adjourn this application and come back with a revised plan so what what what can I change or what can I work with you to so what what I think what I've heard and what I've said from with from the what I'm hearing from the board is that you need to do your best to eliminate one of those two principal variance requests either the habitable floor the maximum square footage the habitable floor area or the habitable floor area ratio it's it's the two together that as I said those are are the two tests for whether a prop house is too dense for the property um and your your proposed plan violates both of those limitations um can I say something here of course please yeah um So based my understanding talk to the uh zoning officer if the if the PCH is open PCH then it's not going to come as a full area now because it's encos that's why it's part of the uh that's why counted right so the PO itself is almost what 350 s ft 2 270 or something 270 27 so take out the 270 so I think if I do another brain Stone probably can take out couple square feet out of the addition area I need to talk to the um talk to my client over there to see how to reduce the um you know the area right um that would I I would recommend that so would you like to adjourn this application yes okay um so our next meeting is January 20 um 23rd yeah I'm not sure that would be a good adjournment date um understanding that this would have to go back to Zoning for rreview it have to come back to me before Rew so I would suggest the February 27th date yes I think that would that work for you awesome you got to go thank you um yeah I was going to say with the holidays and everything else it it might be difficult so would you like to be adjourned to February February yes 20 I'm Sorry Miss holl what you say February 24th 27th 27th I'm sorry February 27th so this application will be adjourned to February 27th 2024 with no further notice required okay thank you okay thank you thank you Madame chair we'll take a five minute res I was just going to I was just going to say that we need five minutes please thanks e sorry e good hold they did that special for your last meeting made it cold okay we're gonna go back on the record please okay Miss Khan will you please call the next application block 1101 L 22201 North Livingston Avenue application number 2023 52v Rodney Brown applicant seeks approval for a 5T chain link fence in violation of the following sections 17- 91 B2B and 3C front side yard corner lot yard fence 4T allowed 5 ft propose one foot variance requested yeah there's an updated def uh violation letter sorry um what am I reading I was what you said um sidey yard fence um am I reading this whole thing a sidey that faces I'm not reading that the the new variances that were pointed out were the fence facing a street on any public right of way taller than 48 in at highest point must have a setback of 3 feet from a public sidewalk or pedestrian easement or roadway Right Way line or 10 ft from the street the other new one is any non-conforming fence or retaining wall lawfully in existence on the effective date of the adoption of the existing resolution uh may be repaired but they're replaced must conform with uh the current applicable setback requirements okay so good evening good evening um will both of you be testifying this evening yes yes okay great so Mr Valerio will swear you about then um both raise your right hand you swear the testimony you're about to give in this matter will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes okay each just separately of course give your full name and address Rodney Brown 2011 North Livingston Avenue Livingston New Jersey Simone Anthony Brown 2011 North Livingston Avenue Livingston New Jersey okay thank you why don't you tell us why you're here today so um we started Renovations on our house um probably in November of 2022 and um at some point in time I think before that um our neighbor F our neighbor's tree fell on to our fence so actually there were two trees that fell onto our fence separate um incidents um at some point I believe in the following year as the renovations were um progressing we said well you know what we have to replace it it looks horrible it's sagging it's it's falling and so we decided that we would just replace it again it was already preexisting so we replaced one for one only difference being is that the one that was there was green this and our new one was black um and at some point um after the renovations were done we get a orange door tag on our door stating that um there was a problem with our fence um we were not aware because again we just replaced what was there right so if I I mean we've been living at the property since 2000 May of 2000 when we moved in there was an existing feet uh existing fence that was a chain link fence that was 5 feet tall and as my husband mentioned on two separate occasions our neighbors limbs from our neighbor's tree fell onto the fence and damaged it the last time being uh March of 2023 and it substantially compromised the fence in a manner that our puppy could get out other animals could get in so we knew that we needed to do something and since we were doing some other things we thought we get this done had no idea that we needed a permit to do so we don't live in an HOA area so we didn't think that we needed to inquire about the permit so our most logical thing was to replace it exactly for what it was so that is exactly what we did and as we uh my husband mentioned we only knew that we did something wrong because we received this door tag so once we received that we went down to town hall and spoke with Marty who gave us um some information in terms of what we could do um about some sort of a compromise and the compromise that he thought would be to go ahead fill out kind of do things in the backwards order which was to um apply for the variance we applied for the variance which we knew would be denied um he said so and so you applied for the permit that appli for the permit right that would be denied to clarify yeah um so we did that in June and from that point we still threw multiple emails with Marty trying to come to a resolution um and Cather and right before getting to the point of a variance and it really came down to maybe we need to just go forward with the variance so we did apply for the variance which was um which is the impetus for this meeting today so we were given five minutes before this meeting additional denials on that variant so we're here today because we're based on the initial so that is kind of what we're thinking we're doing at this point which is to ask for the additional variance on the the the the number of feet for the fence um it is to note is that I understand that we're in a right away of the township ship etc etc there are two openings to our fence one in the front yard and one on the side of West McKellen which is a 5T opening that is clearly big enough for any sort of vehicle that needs to come in if there's a repair of anything of that nature it is unlocked it is accessible if need be so we are initially asking because the fence has now been up for 9 months it's a part of our property it if we had done nothing at all there still would be a 5ft chain link fence however just in a horrible condition so we're here today to ask for variance for the foot as well as I assume now these new denials I have a quick question just lost my mind just I was going to ask you a question and I I lost my train of thought okay it'll come back it will it was right there I was waiting for I was waiting for for heard to stop okay yeah so um we don't see where this would be um some sort of way that impedes the Township in any way um we did replace it for something that new bright and shiny um so we just want to just continue on to allow our puppy to roam through the backyard and have this fence installed as it is and not AB absorb any other Financial hardships in terms of having to replace it I have a question did you did you install the fence or did you to replace it you had a company yeah we had uh the company is Essex fence who I recall him saying that I've done so many fences in this town I you know this is a no-brainer and we were like great we need to do this right away because this is a huge opening can I just ask a question up here because I don't I only have the original denial letters so I'm just a little confused as to like what we're actually we're only reviewing one variant no we would if if a approved we would try and address all we want to address everything so that they wouldn't need to come back okay so I know my question was the Jack the letter that they got prior to do we have that in our packages that's we have the original letter we have the original that they didn't receive no they no what happened was we they got the same letter we received then Richard noticed that the Mr Valeria noticed that the fence encroached on the right of way okay and the side no that that was that was on the original when I tried to gauge the distance there was no no markings on the survey showing the setbacks so that's why I questioned the uh zoning officer about it and I guess with that information they took another look and issued a new letter I just have a quick question the fence company did he say anything to you when he put the fence in that he has to get a permit because most installers know they have to get a permit before they put they at all no and so many we had no idea at the time we were doing other things so we knew to get permits for those things had no idea about the fence and if we had we C certainly would have yes see and obviously we'll we'll have if anybody on the board wants to ask questions the difficulty here is that the town I feel like we've hit all the high the strict points tonight in this meeting but the the town is has a very strict fence ordinance as you've seen from the the conversations you've had with with um with the zoning department the the your original fence predated the fence ordinance I believe the fence ordinance I was trying to look it up quickly I think it's from 2006 um and so your original fence was grandfathered in as being pre-existing but the the intention of the ordinance was to repl as those fences were replaced that they would then comply with the ordinance um and so you know because because of the location of you know because of the location of the property and it being on a you're on a corner lot you're supposed to comply with the front yard fence requirements which do not allow the chain link so or the height so you're a corner lot the chain link goes down West mollen mhm along the back along the side so really it's West mcon that we're talking about right that's what it's really violating you have the unfortunate situation of being visible to everybody which is I'm surprised they even caught this to be honest with you and they know how I feel about fences so it's a miracle that they even saw this but you have a chain link fence not bad on board you're 50 % open as does our neighbor directly across from us and a neighbor down on Fon and technically it's a front yard correct and I get that it's a corner lot yes and I get and I'm the biggest fence Guru here as everybody in this board knows I appreciate the fact that you took responsibility and replaced the fence with news so we didn't have to look at a dilapitated fence I'm speaking and I can only speak for myself I'd almost be okay if we came up with an arrangement to approve the fence with the condition that you did planting along that line to Shield it I'm only one vote okay and everybody here knows how I feel about fences probably the hardest person on the board when it comes to fences but I understand the unique position that you're in your location the fact that they found it amazes me um but you're a corner lot it's not on the dominant street it's on the side street if you would right and you did the right thing because you thought you were doing the right thing little bit to be desired about the fence installer but that's a separate issue that's not your issue I mean technically you should have known better but to find a compromise that's what I would be okay with but again I'm one vote and I would be happy to do that and and that's when Marty uh I see it on the pl I don't know if you wrote it or he wrote it and I didn't ask purpose I purposely didn't ask who wrote it right only because I'm looking looking at the situation and what's gone on and I heard your story and I get it um but something has to be done obviously and if the rest of the board doesn't agree with me then the alternative is you take it down and you're going to have to do something else but I'm I'm one person I'm telling you my comments I think Mr J I think the issue though is that it's it's in the right of way and on the sidewalk can't I see that I saw that in the letter I read that in the letter we also included some pictures as well yes we're not obstructing anything I mean there's clearly enough room for people to walk it's not on the sidewalk it's in the RightWay Richard it's hard to see it's hard to see on the survey we don't know where the RightWay line is actually because again the sery doesn't have any Dimensions with respect to uh the fence and the sidewalk and had they been on there it might have been easier to you know to address those questions it says in the letter when I read the letter let's see tardo you could actually reference the engineers memo dated November 6th yeah that's on I mean if it I mean if it is within the right of way then frankly I'm not sure we can approve the fence you know that's in that area that's something that you know we'd have to consult with Mor you about right the original denial letter says that the fence is installed 2.4t in the township RightWay do we know which section that is like on the plan so where does it say 2.4 feet because I'm not it says it right above the driveway I was reading from the denial letter the I don't have the survey says the 628 2023 denial letter oh there it is yeah I was reading off I was reading um Rocco's memo so it's like going over the right side of the property line a little bit that's yeah yeah along West mlen if you look above where it says pave drive it's a 2.4t plus or minus as you see we want to try and find a way to work with you and I do think you should go back to your regardless of what happens you should go back to your fence company to seek some sort of recourse because of the time and effort and expense of even getting to this point let alone whatever comes out of this this is the original survey right it looks like so it looks like the offense was existing in the original right when they bought the house yes in 2000 EX the fence was already there and he should have mentioned the permit he should have that he should the first thing he should have said to you is don't worry I'll get the permit for you you can pay me for it like that was the first that's one of the first things they goes for a living do we know if the original fence also went in the right of way what did the original fence also go in the right of way I mean it looks like it from the original survey was that something that maybe the town would have like like signed off on or like entered some kind of well the town would submit a survey and they would picked up on it right away yeah I mean you guys are supposed to know but you hired a professional you know he really should know yeah Mr Brown on one of the surveys you should handwritten notes do you know who put those on actually from Marty he wrote on okay on our it wasn't the contractor no no no so so let me just let me just confirm so the front of the house has the same fence right yes 5 foot chain link along Livingston Avenue and then goes down West Mallen right and then it's at some point it looks like it jumps over a few feet so it it is after the driveway after the driveway goes down West McKellen then it comes around uh which is our neighbors and then it comes around again so it covers our entire on either side of the driveway is it aligned it looks like that down west mlen from the driveway it's that's where it's in violation or is in violation all along I think I'm trying to isolate things yeah um I think they're saying it's just down West McKellen cuz I don't see it on other I don't see it on the uh east side of the drive that it's off by 2.4 ft I think the way um it's not on the other side of the driveway it's it it's literally oh it comes off the house it right so oh I got you that's I was okay so I'm looking at the survey a little bit closer Ed if you look at the survey a little bit closer it actually has 2.4 right which I didn't see earlier in two spots actually yes so okay so it sounds like so there's a clear problem that we can't approve a offence that's in the right of way and the issue is we're not sure it's not clear on the survey where the right of way is and again we want to try and help you um but I think you have to have get a new survey so that we can see where the right of way is so I think here's the issue I'm just going to speak if I can help I'm trying to help you here you're going to get a new survey and chances are it's going to show you that the fence is if you put the fence exactly where it was the new survey is going to show you that the fence is in the right away and all you've done is spend x amount of dollars telling you what you pretty much already know okay to Mrs Foster's point at some point you guys are probably going to go have to go back I'm trying to help you're probably going to have to go back to the fence guy and get him to move that inside of the line pull the permits move it inside of the property line you'll probably at that point need some kind of survey to make sure that one it's inside the property line and two when he's done excuse me you want to be able to show that it's done but then you have the problem of 5 foot so then you have to come before the board and the chain link right you got to come before the board and then you got to address that so then the question becomes you take the shot of coming back before the board and getting approved with some planting like I was willing to do or if you're going to redo it you just do it right up front and comply with the ordinance so you don't even have to come back and see us you have some decisions to make there none of them are easy all of them cost cash unless you can get somehow get the fence guy to work with you I believe he should be on the hook for some of this but that's that that's your battle with him that's not our battle with him and you probably need to do some research to see what's Mr nardone's Point first of all what your personal taste preference is but also what's less expensive is it putting in the plantings if we approve the chain link fence or installing a 50% open non-chain link fence the RightWay is really difficult for us to get pasted well not it's not even we can't it's nothing we can do but and and and I I don't know mrone I don't know if you know is it possible that they can just move the fence back as opposed to ripping it out and no because I'm sure they put it in with some kind of cement at someplace at least Midway point I'm sure the two corners are anchored down yeah at the very least the corners are anchored down he's going to have to cut it back and and that's where that b you have the business decision to make you reinstall what you have and hope that the board approves and come back back or you just say I don't want to see this board again I just want to comply and be done with this and move on with my life that's that's a that's a decision that you have to make you can see I'm willing to work with you but I'm one vote yeah I mean it's just uprooting everything it's like where now does her puppy go no we know defense stays where it is until you I mean you have to solve the issue right so at a point in time you're going to have to do something with the fence that's probably going to take a day so for a day you're going to be in convenience with the dog right so for a day you may have to walk the dog or whatever while the fence is being moved in the interim I wouldn't take the fence down now so you're so you can still enjoy the backyard right I'm I'm trying to be fair to you but you still have to you still have to address the overall issue which is the non-compliance so I wouldn't put yourself in a hardship except for that one day when you're actually doing the work Mr none in the board just just so you know the Browns do have an issue cuz I believe they have a violation you are in court or may not be but I know Marty has he has a ticket or something that was written for this or a stop work stop work order we don't have a stop work order you got a note you got a note on your door that was init what initiated us to come down about the file correct I'm just going by what Mr ch shared with me and I'm putting that on the record that you'd have to somehow address this and he was hoping that this would be addressed tonight and so if the board is willing to to adjourn it to a later date I'll communicate that to the construction official what what I think Miss holl is saying is you can't let this linger for you can't put it off a year and then decide to decide what you're going to do about the fence we can adjourn this this application to if you decide if you decide that you want to move the fence back and then come back to us for approval on the fence and Poss and most likely install plantings that we can push to let's say the February meeting and you would have that time to do that um or you can withdraw the application and take move the fence um and make it comply with the order ordinance and go through the you know you go through the permit process right they'd have to comp they'd have to put in a conforming fence because you receive the door tag it can't just linger and you're you're here obviously working to address the issue so it so I I I think that's well is there an assumption that that we will let it linger I guess is why I no it's just no just because it was done without the permit there's a the it wrote it this it this situation arose because it was done without a permit and obviously as you put on the record that was not through any fault of your own it's just the situation that you find yourselves in unfortunately um and so the violation notice is you know that's how this this situation arose yeah I'm I'm just curious also is because again it was I don't know months after it was completed and again what put us on the so and again we've been in the house for 20 four years right never had an issue with anything and months and months later after everything is done we get a door tag right I me somebody drove by so again somebody drove by and saw a and saw a brand new fence I mean because again your fence predated the ordinance and was permitted you know if nothing had if nothing had happen to the fence and obviously thank God nobody was hurt when that tree fell cuz like the pictures look horrible yeah um you know if the prior fence was still in place you wouldn't you would have gotten a violation no it's not no it's the height and the fact that it's chain you know if it's the fact that it's a 5 foot high fence and it's chain length so when you as soon as it needed to be replaced M that necessitated the permit just so that I'm clear you said to if we move the fence back so just so that I'm understanding if we move it towards the left closer into yes the property correct and and then also include plantings or that in itself would be enough if you stay at 5 foot if you stay at five foot you're still not going to be in compliance okay okay so that means you'd still find yourself in front of this board and this board would have to either say yes we will accept it we will approve this if you put plantings that's a common that's a common approach okay if they say no you may have to take it out again and comply or you may say you know what I don't want to see this board and I don't want to roll the dice as long as I got to take the fence out I want to put in a conforming fence which is 4 foot high and put in a conforming a conforming fence let me just change that don't put the new fence in until you come to us right have your plan I think you said Put it you don't have to take it out again and that's why Miss Hollis was saying if we adjourn it to February February that gives you enough time to talk to your fence company to do the research and figure out what you want to do you can leave the existing fence because you have the there's no issue with the door tag because you're you have an application pending before us and then you come back in February let's say ideally your variance application is approved or you've decided to build a conforming fence and then either way you can move forward and and make whatever change but even a conforming fence if it was a rot iron fence it still would have to be moved in with ins side yes at 2.4 ft you want to move it you know 2 and 1/2 ft or you you got to give yourself a couple inches yeah little wiggle room but I think what Miss uh f is saying that you have the door tag by going to February that holds the door tag or March you know there's no worries we don't want you worry about anything me once there's snow on the ground it might be hard to to get somebody to assess moving it so you know we just need but we can't you don't want to leave here without it scheduled for some meeting so the is the survey then also required if we move in or we would need to see this the the the zoning department and we would want to see the survey so that we can make sure you're out of the right of way okay and miss miss F I'll go even a step further because once the board adjourns it to a date certain I would ask the board to maybe push it out to the spring it would give you sufficient time to do you know get through March Yeah March or April Jack yeah there's no there's no urgency it's just continued progress okay and how how would we go about SCH scheduling a survey you basically you you look up a surveyor survey and they come in within days here's what I would do you have a copy of the survey in front of you correct if you give them your existing survey that will probably save some of the ground workor and be a little less call that call them if the surveyor is out of business way that industry works is somebody probably bought the records okay so that phone number is going to lead you to someplace whever it leads you to because they have the foundation map a lot of the work's been done to Mr Valerio's point it probably won't cost you as much as starting from scratch so start there with the survey and start getting getting all your ducks in a row and Miss paus has suggested March just to give you guys a little bit of lead time buy you a little bit of time to do all this because you got a lot of your big hurdle is going to be the defense company right but what I would do yes I would call the fence company and I would call Mr kir Alonzo Lono and I would just get the sequence in in order so that way you know is it is it getting the survey and then moving coming to us or is it moving the fence back out of the RightWay and then getting the survey just so that you don't have to incur additional expenses okay okay okay so should we does March s does the end of March sound good that's isch March April we can do we can do I we can give you do April because I don't know what the weather and I I always worry about snow and March the survey get through it but yeah give yourself plenty of time so that date is April 23rd right okay so April Jackie 23rd okay thank you so we're going to adjourn this to April 23rd 2024 no further notice is required okay great thank you Lu luck Sor good luck call the fence company yes definitely defense compan a Jour yes I make a motion to adjourn motion to adjourn approved mle tub Tony