e e e [Music] okay we are on the air good evening welcome to the meeting of the lill township planning board it is June 25th 2024 it's uh just after 7:30 7:32 uh Deborah if you would take the honor of reading the announcements absolutely number one call the order and statement of compliance adequate notice of this meeting hearing has been provided by posting a copy of the echo posting a copy of the public meeting hearing dates on the municipal bulletin board and website by sending a copy to the EOS Sentinal newspaper and by filing a copy with the municipal clerk number two standard board procedures any meeting or hearing conducted by the board is a quasi judicial proceeding any questions or comments must be limited to issues that are relevant to what the board May legally consider in reaching a decision and decorum appropriate to a judicial meeting or hearing must be maintained at all times number three electronic devices all in attendance are asked to mute cell phones or any electronic devices as to not interrupt the proceedings number four Pledge of Allegiance I pledge of alance to the flag United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all okay roll call Deputy Mayor lavender present committee man ray is excused this evening Miss Dill present Mr hams here Mr malanowski here Mr opala here Mr Sanda yes Vice chairman Jones present chairman Richardson here we have a court thank you okay so to start off uh we're at item number six uh and this is the review and approval of the meeting minutes from the May 28th 2024 meeting was a real lengthy set of minutes don't forget there is a backside double page all right saving trees Yep this a cheapid thing what's the difference there oh which one's correct we'll find that when you get you didn't can someone who was uh in attendance make a motion so moved thank you second thank you all in favor I I I okay uh moving right along to item number seven uh this is the resolution for the Millington Volunteer Fire Company application 20 49p so I'll open it up to yes Mr Sandow I have a number of comments far away microphone is backward okay uh on page one the applicant has applied for an item three a variance for the placement of a generator an Associated Concrete pad the applicant did not apply for a variance for the generator we shoved that down his throat that's true because it was pre-existing and has existed for probably in the neighborhood of 20 years and there is a loophole in the language of the notice it said the board could adopt any additional variances that were required and it was somebody maybe me were quick to point out that the generator had never been approved and so it is wrong to say that the applicant applied for that variance m do you have suggested alternative language I do not I am not an attorney and I'm not sure whether an attorney wrote this or not okay let's also on page one at bullet number one it says a minimum of 10 ft is required pursuant to section Lu 131 and attachment one of the Township's land use use ordinance there is no attachment one to the Township's land use ordinance there is only section 131 now it happens that the online codifiers have chosen to not put that page in line but rather to make it an attachment to their website uh and we've got to fix that because that is a nuisance but it is in accord only in accordance with lu 131 uh attachment one has nothing to do with it that's just a uh a uh publishing convenience it's not an official attachment similarly in number two and in number three on that page moving right along on page six I'm waiting for the attorney to catch up with page six I'm cing on page six at the top of the page the following conditions one any and all outstanding taxes and escrow fees shall be paid this applicant does not pay taxes they are tax exempt how can we require them to pay taxes if they don't get a tax bill and finally the most egregious failure is on page seven now committee man ray who is a member of this board is also the president of the Millington Fire Company mhm as such he would if he had come to the meeting he would have had to recuse himself from this hearing however at the top of the page it says no none recused none not eligible none absent none committe Man Ray was either absent or recused and should be listed somewhere in that top paragraph M also in the vote on the resolution table uh committee monray is marked as not eligible uh yeah I guess he's absent from tonight's meeting so maybe he needs two x's I'm not sure and that is the extent of my comments Mr chairman thank you just I think before we move on is there there I think we can resolve if I'm not mistaken he recused himself correct Deborah from that from the application technically yes so I think that's we can plug that I just wanted to make sure that that was yeah I I mean I don't think I put him on there because he wasn't present so okay I mean I I did announce at the hearing that he was recused which is why he didn't attend the hearing right but if the board chooses I can put him as he should either be in the absent or recused yeah but I agree I think he needs to be listed as yeah but he has to be listed somewhere because that would be egregious issue if anyone decided to sue us right and we always worry about lawsuits there you go yeah something else I'm sorry something else Mr Sandow may have missed I think application number it should be 2409 one I was going to say that sorry that was going to be my little geta gotcha moment do we want to see another copy of this before we vote on it I would like to see another copy I don't think we have unless there's a consensus that we need to see another copy I think your changes can be made Fairly easily yeah I think your comments are fairly clear Dennis so in the spirit of facilitating this resolution to helping the fire department get official I think that would make sense to me unless other people agreed have a different opinion the these are all clerical errors and we don't want to hold this up another month so any questions on those comments they were excellent comments and I think they're easily captured and resolved yeah I I didn't draft this but I think Matt covered the meeting for this so he took care of it but I will uh I think we could at least most of that stuff is pretty easily resolved but the as far as Mr sand comments regarding would you please send me a copy of the corrected version before it is signed because I'd like to take one last look at it I think this is a little bit too much to go on a verbal well if the board well here's the thing if the board votes to adopt it with those changes and you have additional changes we can't yes that I'm I'm I I would agree that the board could adopt it with the changes but I would like to see the changes before the resolution is signed off and put in the record um just in case I have to ask to bring it up again but that no it's not it's unofficial yeah I don't know what we can do with any comments you have after we vote on this that's not normal yeah we can always revise the resolution well no not which but that's one of the reasons why I'd like to postpone this until we have a clean copy in front of us to vote on what of these clerical changes would you have a problem with in regards to trusting that our faithful board attorney can't make in real time I if you you have more faith in the board attorney than I have why don't we do this why don't we let's uh board attorney please cycle through the changes and let's revie review them one last time okay so prer the vote for yeah well we haven't finished with any other input from the rest of the board so is there any other changes no not make application number Okay so can we make is there a motion to accept these conditionally no I think board attorney just just just kind of right now to read them back so we didn't miss anything and Dennis isfor let's make sure we're clear because you can always go back to the video tape and then replay what we Justa right so my everything sounds pretty easy my only thing I have to I have to kind of think out a second is the uh the variance for the uh for the generator can I make a suggestion for you no I would take it out of uh the whereas Clause where it is stating that they applied for it just take it out and put it in as a finding where it was suggested by the board to be incorporated to rectify or you know go ahead my my hesitation what I was going to get to did the app my question because I wasn't here for the hearing all right did the applicant agree to amend their proposal to request that variance yes okay so then they would have applied then they would have applied for it under the you know the plain meaning of the word applied for if they revising their proposal to request it they're applying for it may have happened during the hearing part of the application but it was not part of the application that's up for the attorney to just yeah I don't let me a condition no it wasn't because it's an existing condition that they got a variance for what okay hold on just make my point real quick I think this might solve it so what I my typical course of action everybody at my firm drafts these differently what typically do is I'll put a footnote at the end of um either the variance relief of that first where ass paragraph and in the footnote I'll say the applicant did not initially seek this variance but during the hearing it came up you know something along those lines to indicate that it wasn't part of the initial application submission but that it came up later on in the process so if that if that works for everybody I could easily I'm fine with that's the last sentence in paragraph 15 kind of covers that right even put like C paragraph 15 whatever where it says the applicant requested which the applicant requested after this required Vance was discovered by the board planner right yeah yeah I could make a reference to to paragraph 15 as well yeah just okay in your footnote that's a good idea yeah once again Mr chairman I think that there's enough changes have now been discussed that we need to see the written of another written version again before we goote I don't think we're done cycling through what you said the first time so let's keep going let's keep going through this the comments All right so let me go from the I'll start again at the top um first change application number needs to be revised to 24-9 P is that the right application number that 09 09 09 okay not 01 okay just wanted to confirm that um uh moving down the list U the references to attachment one should be removed from the uh the items of variance relief listed there I'll throw a footnote on number three indicating that uh this variance wasn't initially applied for but it came up during the hearing and that um you know the applicants amended their proposal to request this item of relief because you it's typically what I what I do I don't you know every Matt who did this he does things differently you can rever refer to number 15 yeah and refer to number 15 right yeah I'll add it not to that one second okay I don't think there's anything page two nothing page three there should also be mentioned in that that the generator pre-existed this application and had been installed without prior approval which is why we're in this situation of having to talk about it but the resolution should make note of that okay Sor the reference to paragraph 15 V page four page five page six just eliminating the word um the words taxes end from that first sentence so it should just say any and all outstanding escro fees shall be paid in full etc etc yeah and then page seven um inserting commit and raise last name either I think I guess just under recuse would make the most sense and then uh I think that's it then he obviously would be not eligible because he was refused and wasn't here so I think that's the proper placement for it but for that X in in the chart but I think that's it oh wait also the further resolve this resolution oh yeah June 25th okay it's the correct yeah okay that's I think that's it those six changes I think I counted I think so that's most yeah I lost count I think I counted six yeah with the exception of just that generator footnote referen the rest are very that's the biggest piece yeah yeah so okay so hearing the cycle of changes is is there a motion to approve with the understanding that these changes will be made and that you will dutifully review the videotape and take in incorporation I make sure that everything is buttoned up it might just actually make more sense to break up paragraph 15 for the part that the in addition becomes paragraph 16 then where you basically that way to this point that it's separate it's carved out and it's carved out and you could say that it's been there for X number of years and it came up during the board planner review so it's it's not part of the rest of that paragraph with what Mr Hollow showed just just a question is there anything actionable by the applicant with that Amendment put in there in the way that we're structuring that paragraph like do they have to now file a permit do they have to go do something or is it just a matter of record that we're highlighting yes so I don't I think they still need a permit yeah once they get a even if they get a variance you still have to get so they have an action to go do they have to go get a permit close it out we're not 100% sure that they didn't get permits originally are we I I I don't that's what I'm hearing this conversation saying and I think I'm trying to recall what was discussed during the hearing and I don't I don't I can't remember whether or not there was they didn't have it or they have to go get it or I I just don't no I just yeah I'd have to look through the building files to see if they they had received it or not so I think the best thing to do is yes carve it out and and if there is something actionable that they have to action on it I I can't imagine that they did not get permits for that my I I can imagine that my predecessor didn't give him correct zoning approval but I can't imagine they didn't get permits from the thing is regardless of whether or not they did or didn't that's the construction office's correct issue that's menting it here memorializing that we've uncovered this finding this this discrepancy well as far as the board's concerned all you're really concerned about is that it's in the set that whether or not a construction permit was whether a zoning permit was issued is obviously your concern but whether a construction permit was issued they would have to get that anyway whether or not your reference it or not if if they don't have one already right so it kind of goes without saying that they need to comply with that already because of the ordinance so and that would be covered in the catch all of the resolution where it says whichever is applicable in the brackets at the end right so if it was then the catch all at the end of that paragraph should catch the fact that if that permit wasn't done they do itre it's done they don't need to do it so if you break that apart and then you put the catch all in if it needs to get done then it should be covered by that I think there there's probably other yeah condition six would also cover that too the applicant sh to government approval from any other governmental agencies of jurisdiction relating to the property right you know there's your construction Department uh four mic cover that as well um applicant shall comply with responsible for any cost associated with all these other outside requirements but yeah it's it's it's pretty much c yeah they're going to have to get it anyway if they don't have it right yeah good with that I'm good you'll feel comfortable with capturing what what's been said this even absolutely so a new paragraph 16 then yeah yeah I have a not we'll make that with those amendments I approve this application do you move to approve I second that's a motion quick for what it is worth I just discovered in my notes that I discovered that generator in place in7 so it was installed prior to two prior to 17 years ago at some unknown time with apparently no Authority if you if you want to no Authority until pull the files say again we don't know there was no Authority I haven't pulled the files for the record report yeah so we have a motion from Dave I to approve as amended mayor yes uh Mr Hans yes Deputy Mayor lavender yes m d yes Mr melanowski yes Mr aala yes Mr Sandow I'm going to abstain because I'd like to see this thing completely Rewritten before it's before I vote for it Vice chairman Jones yes chairman Richardson yes motion carries okay uh on to the next uh item uh it's uh our agenda item number eight a board discussion associated with ordinance development I'll yield to Mr Jones thank you very much uh Mr chairman uh so uh the last time we met we were discussing uh three items to for ordinance review two of which we settled on the third being shed um sheds uh was asked to uh by the board to go back and have the team take a look at it and come back with some assessments um so we did that um in in our Discovery uh I did go to various uh shed manufacturer websites I did not go to them on site in person and started to glean some of the information off those sites on shed height shed width shed depth and square foot uh uh footprint and in that analysis I looked at Heights from uh or square footage from 80 square feet to 200 square F feet and I sent around this morning a table of that uh uh assessment and uh looking at that um we as a group decided that the modifications or recommendations uh uh to come back to the board uh because there was some concerns raised was one St stay with the 10-ft setback regardless of the size um use 10 and 1/2 ft height restriction so uh looking at some of these sheds you can see 200 foot is could be anywhere from uh 10 to 10 1/2 ft 192 uh square foot shed is 11 1/2 ft you can see you can see all that in the table that I've provided so we're saying height restriction of 10 and 1/2 ft after that you need to go seek a variance what we don't want to see is a twoot shed we know that sheds come with a crawl spaces and a little extra storage so we want to account for that and we don't want to see flat roofs um so uh give it a peek uh I'm sure someone's going to stick something decorative on top of it or whatever uh but you know at least the rid line is 10 and 1 12 ft um and also uh not uh the footprint of the shed should not exceed 200 square fet after 200 square fet then you need to to go to and obtain a construction permit but this 200 ft do doesn't talk uh solely about enclosed space some of these Decks that I are sorry some of these porches I've seen can get quite elaborate they have decks they have covered porches extensions hanging off of them um they're almost a mini house so I included in that 10 um uh that 200 ft uh footprint does cover covered areas so so it's not just you can have 100t uh 100t enclosed space with another uh covered or porch or deck on it uh for another 100 sare ft that's a 200 foot footprint uh so um those are the suggestions that we uh that we brought together we did Talk Amongst ourselves and I think we're pretty confident in saying that this is pretty sound um so that so that's it our recommendation is stay within the 10 foot setback regardless of the size uh 10 and a half feet is the maximum height after that you must seek a variance and 200 square foot footprint regardless if it's uh has a deck on it a porch um and that's it the other recommendation is don't do anything and leave it at 100 square feet uh as it's currently stated okay thank you discussion yeah I have a question what's what's the rationale for the 10 foot setback the that's the um correct me if I'm wrong I think that's an ordinance consistent with the ordinance there was discussion around if you get a bigger shed do you have a bigger setback and I started playing with that and I said this is ridiculous before you know you're going to have this massive shed sitting in the middle of your backyard so stay with the uh the 10 foot and that's the reason why but what's the rationale what do you think the rationale is for it what what would have been the rationale can anybody here generate a rationale now for a 10t I think to put some vegetation between the shed and the property line was had always been what I'd seen in other ordinances preservation of a we've seen a lot of we've seen a lot of properties where neighbors have their shed on their property lines backed up to each other they're not following the set no they're not following the rules but there's also a drip line off of the uh shed where the water could be pour if you have it sitting right on it's water's pouring on the neighbor's property so it's a kind of give a buffer to the neighbor so that's the rationale that I'm I would assume is why the 10 foot is there well in the last meeting we brought up a fenc in yard would you consider some relief to like 5 feet if it was a solid fence saying 10t yeah I kind of I kind of agree with Tom here especially with some of the narrow properties doesn't make sense to have a shed right in the middle of the backyard like that especially if you have a fence it's 10 ft off your yeah that's maybe yes I still contend that the 200 square foot shed is in fact a onecar garage wait a second that's a great point but let's stay on the setback here for a second we're not done with that do you have a comment on the setback yeah we just wanted to hit the setback comment first I'm not sure whether you're contending that the setback should be more or less than 10 ft I think it should be less I think I think I think 5T is well consider the neighbors consider if your neighbor wanted to put put a onecar detached garage 5 ft from your property line what if it's an 8x10 shed is that the same is that the same thing well the 10 foot is in there to create a standard for the town and whether it's 10 ft or 7t or or 5T that's a different discussion but 10t is what we've been going on anything closer than 10t has has always required a variance uh but the 100 foot is 100 square foot is a sort of a reasonable compromise for a useful shed but a 200 S ft shed is a garage and I certainly wouldn't want that 10 or 5 ft from my property line as far as I'm concerned a 10x 20 shed is really a barn that's a huge that's a huge building but I would say most most residents have something in the order of like an 8 by 12 shed right but it's not stopping you it's just allowing you to go to for me it's a height I don't want a 10 foot shed right next to my 8ft fence with my neighbors 8ft fence and a 10ft cuz that's that's pretty high be that close so but I do I do get the point about the smaller Lots you know but then it's a consumer decision they they can go somewhere small so as people are watching what would the process be if someone to put wanted to put an 8 by 8 by1 12 shed 5 foot from their property line their neighbor agrees they have to go get a variance yep yep and what does that cost upwards of $3,000 over $3,000 $650 for the application fee than the sh so maybe it's the fees are the issue as well right fees are for us to tackle no no but it's just saying it's the point if you're saying that's a cost then it's the fees of the cost that's the issue it's not the the rules and and your neighbor today may say it's great your neighbor they sell the house and the next neighbor say what's going on I got something right there take it down they're going to fight it and they going to fight it there before he bu the house yeah but my concern is is if you have a fenced in yard you should be able to move in a little bit closer I could see open yards or if you have just a split rail fence where it's totally visible but if you have a 6ot high fence a vinyl fence you can't see through it's complet solid fence I mean when you did your research how high are the walls on most sheds are they they're seven and A2 seven and a half so that's you know a foot over but there's different regular up and over then you have the barn style look so they they kind of change right they have the Gable kind offset the the lean too kind of right there's all different size so if you're looking at a 5T off your behind your fence and you're looking at a a foot and a half of shed before the garage I don't see that as being a big problem Tom I think your original hesitation was not wanting to have to have like different proportions but like maybe one like two different height requirements like depending on if there's a fence or not seems like a little bit different than go I yet not wanting like a grid like this well if it's this tall this it's thisall but I think like having exception is a little bit different than like a proportion solid fence and we just talked about a fence that um at the last one that stated that um you have to get a permit for 8 foot right we moved it from to six so up to six we mooved from four to six over six you have to get anything over six feet you need construction per yeah so if you have a 6ot fence then are we saying are you saying that it's a 5 foot setback that's what I would recommend it's says in proportion to the fence I'm not to it okay I I just don't want to have a whole grid yeah you know no no I understand you just yeah you don't want but it's got to be a solid fence you can't have it's not a chain it's not AAL fence or anything like that right and how high is the six feet high high is the shed let's recognize within 10 and a half yes that the peak of the roof at its peak there are a lot of houses in this town that are on reasonably narrow Lots the R4 and the R5 Zone 50ft lots and the neighbor is on a 50ft lot and many of those houses do not have garages they park on the street they have in fact made gravel parking lots at the curb line uh which probably is also not permitted but if we give them the opportunity to put a shed in their backyard without having they can't expand their house because the footprint of the house is restricted by the no the defined sidey yard setback which is 25 or 30 ft depending on the Zone you're in and so they the the lot simply isn't wide enough to add a garage to the side of their house but they can put a detached shed 10 ft or 5 ft from the property line and get their car undercover and this is what I call the potential for Mischief that's an everything Dennis I hate to be bad news but anything we put in someone's going to manipulate the difficulty with the difficulty is that if they plant a shed in their backyard close to the property line they're going to have to put in a driveway and they may or may not do that legally to put in a driveway they're actually going to have to come to the board uh for a site plan review of the lot coverage and on those small Lots adding the shed and a driveway will probably blow the lot coverage requirement so you're for somebody who wants a a shed large enough to be a garage and why would you need a shed this big for any other purpose on a 50ft wide residential lot if that is your intention is to use the shed as a garage you're going to have to come to the board anyway for lot coverage or you're going to have to do it without lot coverage approval but Dennis I don't think they would be coming to the board if they were looking to do that exactly without approval I said and they're going to get caught when they're one the zoning officials goes around and checks or two when they go to sell their house and it gets discovered that you have something on your property that doesn't have a permit it doesn't always get discovered well there's a chance for that there's always a chance for that yes well coming to the town do we do we want to let it go to that extreme that it becomes an enforcement problem or a restriction on sale you know I I think we can head this off in the beginning by realizing the potential that we're setting up here I I I think it's worthwhile time could you just remind again the board why we're going to considering the 200 square feet and then we'll go to De yeah okay so the reason why this came before us was there was the application where we were doing a lot line adjustment I forget the I say Pine Street if that was that's correct Pine Street and um I think it was a 400 square ft cinder block building and the there was conversation yeah 500 was it even bigger all right I think so so 500 foot cender block building on this property and you're only allowed to have 100 square fet so there's a lot of conversation around that what do we do with that piece um there's tax implications if you go over 100 square feet you need to file with the town for that extra square footage uh because you'll be taxed on that the con the um construction um you for anything over 200 square fet you need to get a construction permit so there's a gap from 100 to 200 that doesn't get picked up that nobody knows about unless someone's draw I see you d a stop no one's going to pick up on that unless a neighbor complains or a zoning official goes by maybe at the sale of a house um or someone looking at Google Maps and decides you know someone has a grudge against somebody they'll start saying something so that's why we started to talk about this there are people who need who want a bigger shed but they don't want something over 200 feet and they want a 200 foot shed why they might have a big lawn mower if someone's sitting on a 50 by 100 lot why do you need 200t shed I don't know you need a push along more you don't need a a rider um um so that's the reason why we looked at it and we said let's have a conversation and discuss whether or not Le that's my recollection let's have a conversation about increasing up to 200 if that is viable okay thank you I think I had that right yes yes yes I don't see any relationship at all between the construction code 200t statement and the zoning size for sh I don't see any relationship at all and I don't believe that we should be doing this because of Any uh trying to coincide with Z the construction code there are a lot of situations where the construction code and the zoning ordinance vary and it's there for a reason one has to do with safety and uh hurricanes and the other has to do with the neighborhood characteristic and so I don't see that that making that argument has any Merit at all my second question is apparently this is coming from the zoning board because they're having to Grant variances for the setback Park that question Park that issue or that statement Deb I want to come back to you because you'd raise your hand you're on the front line dealing with this for the zoning board yeah there are really no sheds very little many sheds that come in under 100 ft there's just it's not I mean people don't 100t is very tiny 10 by 10 10 by 10 I mean I see very little sheds that come in under 10 feet so and historically we've not set people for variances if they come in for a zoning application and they want a 150 foot shed 175t shed whatever we don't send them for variances that's typically what had not been done in the past although the ordinance says 100 in translating the ordinance my predecessors and zoning and what I have carried forward is the only reason that that set 100 in the zoning was because of the UCC code that's where it that's where it correlates for us on the opposite side the idea of the setbacks as far as um 5 foot for six foot fences is a great idea and in addition to that what you can also do is that Dennis mentioned some of the smaller zones there are four residential zones in town R4 R5 are your smaller zones R5 is only one tiny Street in the entire town M uh metler and what else planfield field three houses in that zone onfield you're right planfield the other side of that right so two small little tiny areas how many homes do we have in the R5 no in the entire Long Hill oh oh I don't know okay so talking about eight houses well wait wait so my and according to the master plan there's about 150 more houses will move into the R5 when we finish the resoning in the master plan so but that being said regardless of those the two R4 zones have a sidey yard setback of 10 ft only mhm the R3 and the R4 have a setback I'm sorry the R2 and the R3 the larger properties have a 25 foot setback sidey yard so it would make sense in addition if you wanted to do that fence in any Zone say okay the six foot fence you can have five feet it would also make sense in the R4 and R5 zones to allow a 5 foot setback because those are smaller lots and the and the setback they need for the actual house is only 10 ft does that make sense yeah mhm yeah so you could you could section out the zones as well and say okay R4 and R5 only require a 5 foot setback R2 and R3 zones you can have a 5ot setback if you have a six- foot fence that surrounds the side and rear property lines uh you got have enough space for a lawn mower to get around it obviously so just looking real fast according to JD Power and a couple other sites the average size of a single car garage is 240 ft M it's at least 12 by 20 most are 12 x22 so that'd be over 200 ft right there so I understand the concern about people abusing this for a car I don't care about the average size of a garage you can squeeze easily squeeze an electric car into a 10t x 20t garage it's only 6 ft wide and 14t long but if somebody comes to me as a zoning officer a garage is a garage a shed is a shed right a garage has a garage door whether regardless of the size a shed does not have a garage door to put a car so oh look at the Sears catalog or the Home Depot catalogs doesn't exist anymore I only look I only look at the toys I think I think point is I don't I don't know that this whole discussion needs to be focused on a onear garage if for like any topic that we this is a perfect example of what I was talking about if we want to get into discussions of like like this over this we could go on for hours about things of of any nature in any scenario and so I get that that's possible watch this is going to end up happening left and right but I personally don't think it's going to happen very often so that's why I in the interest of time and efficiency I I think our point is do we need to keep talking about a onecar garage that's my two sents no and the the other issue about a shed is that elsewhere in the ordinance we talk about giving a a a credit that's not the word I want to use giving a credit to to a lot coverage calculation for a shed that is mounted on gravel if you put in enough crushed stone out 2T beyond the drip line and I God knows how deep then you don't have to count the shed in the lot coverage calculation now that logic may work for a smaller shed I'm not sure that that logic works for a 200t shed can you excuse the whole thing from the lot coverage calculation if you put in enough crushed stone and we need to have an engineer contemplate whether or not the size of the 200 square foot shed SL garage uh allows you to excuse the impervious coverage situation if you have put in enough truckloads of stone which also sounds like a town per a different town permit okay good is there a way to to put something in that says you can't have an automatic roll up door right or something along those lines if it's really the concern is that no you know if you're putting a shed on a wood base on crushed stone on elevated 4x4 um uh floor joy you are not putting a car on that I'm I'm fully on board with you I'm trying to figure out how resolve is concern that that's what I'm I I don't think personally I don't think that most people are going to have a 12x 20 are going to have at least a 12x2 I mean one car garage right which is above what we're already talking about here going to pre-built sites every pre-built garage that I can find is at least 12x 12 yeah so it's over the 200 sare ft so I can't find any situations where a pre-built comes in that way right it seems that anything that would be smaller than that that you're going to put a put a car in and build a garage you're going to build it m and it's going to be quite apparent what you're doing to Dennis's point that you're going to be doing all these other things along with it run electricity into it yeah right driveways it's an electric car you know so I think to to this point if we're just focused on making it so that we're streamlining this if we're trying to bring in other things I'm trying to figure out if there's a caveat way out or can we just focus on the actual shed setback rather than has anyone ever gone to a place where they sell sheds like like the Amish sheds I've never seen a 10 foot x 20 shed I've seen things they're in multiples of 8 feet 8 by 10 8 by 12 8 by 16 maybe 10 right because they sell 2x4 by 8s right mhm in my opinion a third of this table is probably this much of what's going to happen exactly second thing back to the setback what's the problem with the setback the drip line well what if you require a gutter on the back of the shed I've seen people do that that alleviates the biggest problem with the setback honestly I think we should do away with any allowance of no impervious coverage for any structure in my personal opinion I think that every shed regardless of size every structure that you put because of the way the impervious coverage and the water is treated here in Long Hill and what we see on a daily basis listen if you put gravel down of any kind gravel in lill whether you're graveling a driveway or a pathway that's considered impervious right so in my opinion simplify it correct I would take that out Al together and every shed regardless and everything you put should be I mean decks are a different story decks can be handled a little bit differently we won't get into that because that also has a caveat for a 50% reduction in aw coverage for certain construction type but that's different this is a structure an actual enclosed structure in my opinion based on what we see in the in the zoning construction and Engineering I think it should be done away with all together can you repeat What's Done away with go again so it's basically in the residential shed it says the shed area will not count as lock coverage provided that a minimum of 8 in of crush stone is placed under the structure and 2T beyond the drip line by taking that out it's now all considered in correct right right who's going to go in and measure 8 in because it's virtually impossible to Poli it we don't have any inspection process on sheds why would you have put unless it's over 200 ft and they get construction so okay but that doesn't alter that's one added thing it's not addressing the other stuff right the size and the Heights and the No No so it's just one separate no I just I agree with that comment by the way I think it should be impervious all right so can I just just a couple Point another question you have D or comment I just want go through a couple I think the Zone should be a factor so I mean on the smaller zones then maybe leave at 100 ft and maybe and without looking at the uh lot line on those is it is it is it a standard of 10 or the the lot line changes that's 11 by 21 the setback does it change on the smaller that's just typical standard right now fors whether it a shed a garage a PO bar is 10t 20 height that's the standard 10t and 10 ft set back from side or rear yeah and 20 and 20 foot height that's the current standard for any accessory structure 20 is 20 feet is accessory cut down in half yeah so always cut the shed down to 10 we're cutting the shed down to 10 and it's Garden style some other places say Garden style shed that is not a garage right so there a residential shed is not a garage if somebody an application that has a garage door of any rolling kind that's a garage it's a garage or if it's sheds have sheds have doors windows so how do we factor in residential see the $77,000 sh send around we got two too many discussions happening at once $77,000 guys time out all right you have the floor David thank you so let's go back to the the the Zone maybe that's a factor we do want to consider and I think we should because I think other places have done something similar so I think 10 100 square ft for smaller lot sizes Mak sense right height I think we'd all agree 10 ft regardless makes sense or 10 and 1/2 ft whichever is then it's just case of the setback is it is 10t appropriate I think 10t is probably appropriate certainly on the larger properties as well MH I wouldn't mess around with that so I think you said 25 ft for some of the really big ones and somebody sticks a shed 5T away from no I think so I wouldn't mess around with that it's a case of then for the majority is 5T okay or keep with 10 and just the smaller ones have five ft I think what you're talking about is setting a minimum right the 5et I don't know if I want I think 10 ft appropriate for the larger yeah properties anyhow cuz I don't want a 10t thing 5T from my house even if I've got an acre of land I don't think I want that 10t thing no if something then you go through all the math and say well if they put a 5 foot one 8T height one it's 5T away then I'm sort of then where do you end with this thing so I I I would keep it said you know the lot the size depending on the thing the height 10t regardless it's is closer of setback 5T or not the only other thing I would to that is the fence so regardless if it's a large lot or a small lot 5 foot 10 set back or 10ft setback the solid fence at 6 feet doesn't change the set back I don't think it changed the set back to me no I think it's still 10 ft on the larger propes is there I would keep it yard if it's fenced in I would make it five larger small properties say that say that one more time if the yard is fenced with a six foot fence a 5ot setback so regardless regardless of the lot size regardless of what zone it's in so regardless of size sure if you have a 6ot fence then you get a 5 foot set back correct can I throw out just for the board to consider um somebody asked at the beginning why have a set foot setback requirement um might have to give a little closer I'm yeah to thing I know I'm sorry it's been a long long few days um one of the reasons I've seen you know as a justification for a larger setback is fire safety so let's say you have two sheds and they're you know 2T off the proper line property line each and they're right next to each other one one catches fire it's going to spread to the other one right something to consider you know especially if you're going to talk about you know a fence being a you know something that could alleviate your your setback requirement a little bit you know you don't want fire to spr obviously so just something to throw out there for the board to consider yeah I'm not sure I agree I mean we have plenty of stuff trees bushes and all that other kind of stuff that burns so I don't think that's relevant right above the I'm I'm just telling you wife that way legitimate a concern so just to clarify to Dennis's point of someone putting a garage on some of these small Lots the shed would have to be behind the house the rear of the house right so either way if they're parking on a gravel in the front of the house they have to create the gravel all the way up to the side of their house and get to this accessory structure put it up to the front plane so you picture the box like the front plane of the house okay mhm anything behind that front plane is side and then rear I mean Corner lots are a little different you know as everybody knows but yeah so yeah but in the side yard of some of these smaller Lots there's not enough room mostely to fit any accessory structure on the side of the house so so can we just break it mind if we just recap and just break it down and yeah cuz what we want to do is give the group just to remind everybody feedback and then you're you guys are going to take this feedback and make your modification so so I think the if I if I might um so depending on lot size but if you want see it's 100 ft or 200 ft is that everybody's in is that way everybody would agree to whatever and by size you're saying by by Zone essentially okay and that's how we would distinguish them I assume as a factor y right so somebody with a smaller lot once you put a bigger shed they have to come in and get a variance $3,000 for it I am getting back to the gra that's not helping anybody a small money but 10 foot that doesn't if you got 10 fo try if you're on a a 50 by 100 lot put a 200t shed that's 4% of the lot that you're putting shed on right it's not counting the house right but if you want to put 120 square foot shed you're going to have to come in and get a variance and it's going to cost you $3,000 to put a $1,200 shed on your lot but if we're if we're if we're incorporating this into the total lot coverage doesn't it kind of scale itself yes right and I that's where I'm just trying to clarify what yeah to that point that's true I think that's the point you were trying to make is get rid of this right the gravel and the other things that get you around that issue just call it coverage now they have to comply with this other ordinance and it makes sense and we 100 square foot as a guide is that reasonable then no I think we're saying that if we just do 200 across the board as the maximum these smaller these smaller properties will be violating a different ordinance if they put too big I get that I just don't know if the math works out that way to be honest with you I mean there doesn't seem like a lot of difference yeah it have to be very small house you have I don't think the math would work out cuz you're only talking about 100 square ft 10x 10 on a lot that maybe a quarter acre and the house may not be could be quite small driveway could be sure it's their decision Dave it'll be up to 200 they want to put 100 square I don't disagree say decision but it's a neighbor for me it's the neighbor but all of a sudden I've got now a 20 by 10 is a big shed that's what we've been saying it's a big shed it might not be when the person goes to sell their house what if their neighbor goes to sell their house and all of a sudden they go for a showing and all of a sudden on a 50 by 100 lot there's a 200t shed with the 10 and 1/2t Peak that's pretty in the back of it that you're buying a house you're not buying your neighbor's house I mean it's there it is what it is right you can't so make decisions for what your neighbors are right now we've got 100 100 square feet is what we have so right that's what we're trying to change but what what level of Change Is there a way change by Zone guys just interviewing is there a way that that we could fairly easily do a little bit of an impact analysis with regards to this we know the types of lots we're talking about is just try to do an assessment in regards the impact of that yes walk down Main Avenue in the Sterling business district those are all 50ft Lots except the hotel and most of them have a 10-ft setback on both sides of the uh of the building which is just about enough to get a driveway through and walk back on the you start with Dr Lang's property yeah I know uh she's got a 50ft lot with a driveway that goes to the back and she's got six parking spaces in the back MH now visualize replacing some of those parking spaces with a 200 ft shed and then transport that to an all residential neighborhood but if you want to see what this would look like look at the driveways that exist on Main Avenue next to the businesses uh look at look at uh uh the pizza joint marcelo's now Brooklyn something or no they've changed their name again and then they Chang it uh that that's a good example of a of a driveway that just barely fits the side of the building and then in the back how would a a shed look if you were in a totally residential neighborhood well if someone is going to put a 200 ft shed on one of these small Lots they're most likely going to infringe on setbacks and they're going to have to come and get a variance for that coverage so what's the average size of parking space average parking space is probably 8 by 12 no parking space it's bigger than that by 18 so you're basically saying up to six parking spaces putting a shed in one of the six spaces right that's 144 square feet so it's not two spaces it's like a space and a half yeah well don't forget that you've all that the measurement from the setback measurement is not from the wall it's from the edge of the gutter so take another 6 in 12 in off of that and then you've got if you're going to try to to beat the lot coverage issue by putting it on Stone the Stone's got to be 2 feet outside the building outside the drip line and now all of a sudden you're talking about a larger footprint than just 200 ft right it it you got to draw pictures and and get numerical with this right do you have enough input to close our discussion on the shed to at least come back y can I can iysis I'm very sorry to open possibly open up a can of worms that's cute so I'm looking up your ordinance online and de I me you you to correct me here but I don't see any definition yeah but show me one with a garage door guys this is actually this is kind of Dennis's Point here yes please um I don't see any definition for shed or residential shed in definition right there is a definition for a uh private garage so something maybe to consider maybe Define shed that that way you can write something in there that says you know storage of cars is not permitted or something like that you know yeah it be definitely useful to Define it right if you're trying to make a distinction that's a very good thank you problem good my pleasure I'll take it all okay so in the sake of time I I want to move on if we're comfortable um yes yes please sorry no I was just going to say at a certain point I know we want to avoid this but if if we're not not going to come to a perfect conclusion there is time for public comment of course so you know we're we're making a lot of assumptions on what the public wants and I think we should put the very best version forward but if we're not going to come to a perfect resolution between us then maybe public comment and we want to and we want to present a thoughtful approach which that's what we're doing yes of course and Tom maybe you could just talk a little bit about the bundling and how we want to maybe the next step yeah so I don't know if oh public comment happens here I think that happens when it goes to the TC and TC does its two readings and that's when the public input which then can come back to us for further and I'm happy to take that on as well you know take on that uh the the feedback so um there are a lot of ordinances that need to be cleaned up I know um Deborah's got some that she needs to give to me I know Dennis has a list of things he needs to give to me in my format and uh what we want to do is bundle things just like we presented the last three and here we're talking one uh you know 33% of three of the three that we uh worked on um but the idea is to bundle it so that way we have healthy discussions and that we start moving this stuff uh to the TC so the TC can do what they need to do with it comes back to us it comes back to us if it doesn't parts of it comes back to us and others continue on that's great that's the objective but it's all about trying to get momentum on stuff that has been stale on uh for quite some time and it's time to tackle so that's that's the rationale behind uh the bundling and for the deputy mayor and and the committee men I I want to keep you guys busy well let's just confirm what we talked about before so when you when the board makes changes Chris or Steve Chris's office needs to write that up come back to the board we all you vote on it approve okay this is going to go and then once that's written up it's voted on then we can send it to the TC they do their public hearings and you know do everything comes back to us for M uh just final review and master plan consistency review right master plan consistency review so thank you for that because we have two that we did agree on and we need to start seeing the next steps of that okay uh to as it progress it so I think Chris was here last time I think Matt was here last time I'm Chris you're Chris I know it's we we're a very similar build we both beard I confus them all the time so so so Matt yeah he was the one that was here okay I'll collab with him so he needs to do those two pieces it was the fence and it was the what was the second one the other one worked on well did we swap one huh we have was the one that we moved we had three was it generator the sign is the sign oh the sign thank you there it is sign fence and sheds right yeah I don't think we get I don't think the board gave Matt official go ahead and put this in ordinance format so no we need to do that no we didn't do that I'll I'll take ownership of not getting that done all right so just to be clear so it was fence and I'm sorry what was the other one sign those are the two that you guys discussed home office home office sign oh right back to the uh that two came out of a an application I remember that one very well um this okay so are you are you asking us to to draft an ordinance at this point yes okay dra you might have to go to the video tape to see what was discussed okay no problem I hopefully Matt took notes and either he or I can you know go and put it together probably end up being made but regardless Dennis we're going to move on to the next item are you is this associated with the ordinance discussion no this is an ordinance issue okay some months ago at one of these meetings you mentioned that the ordinance committee had gone through the master plan and had come up with a list of something like 180 it that had to be corrected uh can I see that list I think you have it I I thought we had distributed distributed no you don't have a copy I don't have it and at the the last time I asked you you said you sent it to me and no I sure I sent it I sent it to everybody you did we'll distribute it again would you send it to me again please yes absolutely thank you can you send me your your ordinance stuff in my format H can you send me your ordinance stuff in my format why don't you guys have an offline discussion yeah okay let's have an offline discussion okay um all right moving right along the last uh item before adjournment is old and new business and I know uh Dennis you have uh an outline uh addressing uh the Sops and bylaws this was something that uh requested at the outside of the year please take it away sop let me tell you about the history of the SOP situation about six years ago Mr Jones started a project that was called policy and procedures at the time and that sort of ran downhill and never got to the board and then in 2000 we created a administrative policy committee to pick that up again and surprisingly no one gave a damn we had seven meetings in early 2000 in January February and March and other than the attorney and myself the greatest attendance was by any other member of the committee was three of those seven meetings which means a taken over the span of seven meetings we had a 50% ATT 57% attendance the problem with that is that I spent most of the time between meetings creating new drafts highlighting the stuff that you missed because you didn't come to the last meeting and then the next meeting we had to regurgitate the stuff that people missed and in some cases I have a record of two regurgitations in a row because somebody had missed those first two meetings and didn't show up till a third meeting and needed to be briefed on what they had missed in the prior two meetings and mercifully that project ended abruptly with covid because we weren't able to hold meetings in the building anymore we had to and so that that committee died a very prudent death thanks to the covid virus um that's the only good thing that ever came out of that virus was it killed the administrative policy committee and then it sat dormant for 3 years because we were mostly focused on big application and the master plan and the chairman graciously allowed me to volunteer again to try to get this started and what I have provided today is a one-page synopsis of what I think we're going to do now this is based on the fact that 4 days ago I started going through my computer trying to rake out all the right ings from past years and all my notes along the way about stuff that needed to be put into this sop and surprisingly after I found 49 documents I said I think I'm about 2third of the way through uh trying to put this all in one place and then I said but what are we writing are we writing a policy manual or an administrative policy or a handbook or guidelines or policy and procedures those are all the titles of documents that I was able to resurrect over the past 6 years surprisingly I found good stuff that was contributed by members of the short-lived committee Don Tom and one missing member John falby contributed and and I have those contributions and they need need to be integrated but as I thought about what it is we're really trying to do I realize that we have two separate chores here one is bylaws we are operating under rules that are established by Statute and by ordinance but they are not a complete set of what we do and how we do it the organization needs bylaws and attorney pigeon is very good about that he puts an ordinance in front of the township committee about holding Zoom meetings and somebody on the township committee using no other words for no other adjectives somebody on the township committee says should this apply to the planning board and the zoning board and Jack's immediate response is no those boards have their own bylaws well surpris those boards don't have their own bylaws and I'm not going to tell that to Jack in public but we need a set of bylaws that extends the ordinance just a little bit to cover all the things that are official and quasy official about the way this board operates that's one doc Dennis just a quick question to interject so in your research we have no existing set of bylaws for this board that's from I have I do not have one no now the zoning board under Dr bear created a six-page document but I'm not sure what the title of it was but it was a bunch of stuff heaped into it document mostly having to do with the uh qualification and selection of Consultants I think that's why he wrote it in the first place uh when Dr bear left the zoning board that document sort of died and I don't think anybody has ever tried to give it any official standing since then but we and and as you see in my bottom line of this little table the bylaws are probably no more than three pages a lot of it will refer to the ordinance for example the membership of this board doesn't have to be defined in the bylaws because it's defined in the ordinance and so we'll refer back to that the bylaws will just fill in the cracks for example Zoom versus courtroom the township Committee in insists on having hybrid meetings both the boards have decided to stick with courtroom only mostly because of the hearing notice legality so there will be a short set of bylaws to fill in the gaps and then there is an sop and compared line by line with bylaws on this very simple chart which you can take a look at in your spare time the SOP is intended to be the Chairman's statement of how we're going to run this damn show for the next year uh it is not approved or adopted it's just a document that floats around and is there's a copy in everybody's drawer if they want to pull it out it's a reference document it is not a public document it's strictly internal to the board it can can be written and amended by anybody who has the uh willingness to sit down and thinks through problems and write them down and write answers and get the chairman to agree uh because this is essentially an internal working reference Mater reference document it's not subject to the uh Oprah it just supplements and extends the formal language of the ordinance and the bylaws for example the bylaws will say meetings are held in the courtroom the SOP will say may your held in the courtroom because hybrid is a nuisance 201 and besides that we've got a technicality with meeting notices that if an applicant notices a meeting for the courtroom it's got to be held in the courtroom period that additional historical information will go in the SOP so that you don't have to ask the question again and get the same answer I mean Dennis in our discussion one of the key attributes to of the SOP is to help new members correct that's what it says mainly intended as a primer for new members and as a checklist for complex sequences for example if you yeah go ahead no just finish what do you go so on the Zone on our website for Board of adjustment there's rules for the Zoning Board of adjustment is that Tom that was adopted in 201 Tom be's doc everything you guys are talking about so why don't we copy this and do something for us because that is nowhere near complete it doesn't understand the levels of legality and flexibility involved and they haven't used it since Tom bear left but I'm following this everything that you're saying is in here where the meeting is etc etc I'm saying this is a starting point it's got it may it it is one of 49 other starting points that I have collected it's a starting point that's done already right that's that's it's done by people who are no longer with us under circumstances that no longer apply please Common Sense Scott if you would like to participate actively I mean 10 20 hours a week I'd be glad to take your advice otherwise I'm I'm showing you the the outline of how would like to run with this I think all Scott's doing is pointing out that this document exists it's on the website I think that it would behoove us to as a board take a look at it Dennis I'll ask Dr bear what he thinks is still appropriate he's not here he's he deceased I said that right here maliciously it's right there ni is there just so hey it's easy enough to Dre it's easy enough to dredge out somebody else's writing the question is does it apply to us in this year with this membership with this political environment and social environment that we are dealing with I I'm not going to start with a clean slate but I'm also not going to start with somebody else's document as a framework this is not an official document the fact that that you found that on the website means that it's a discoverable official document it isn't official it was it was adopted yeah it was adopted by the zoning board n years ago yeah 2015 and don't forget the zoning board's mission is different from ours I'm not saying it's exact it's a template it's a template it's not even a template all right so start it's Dr Bear's musings start from TR let's waste more time we've already talked about so is it that out the next meeting we all review it and then we come in and have a discussion is that kind of I think Dennis I've asked Dennis to put together this thank you for putting together this outline I think it's just to finish I think what we're to do is to give Dennis some feedback uh please I I on the outline for this or to talk and certainly support Dennis or volunteer if you'd like but I think Dennis you have the ball I'd like to see you push this along I will take any feedback that anyone wants to offer me uh on a onetoone basis I don't expect that the SOP will be the subject of discussion in meetings you may or may not agree with what's written but that's okay you can ignore those sections that you don't agree with and or if you want to suggest changes fine do that the on the other hand the bylaws will be a formal document and we will discuss it and we will adopted by resolution but it will be very brief and I will try to get that ready for a first discussion before our next meeting thank you my only comment for one quick just a conversation comment is sop not public do we really want a nonpublic document document that we have some formal adherance to I don't want to jump ahead of it without doing a little bit of research but I'm fairly certain it would still be oo yeah yeah why are we not including it to the public what's the purpose of that I don't know what Dennis that's to you what would be the purpose of keeping this from the public yeah I'm sorry one more time what would be the purpose of David asked the question and I agree that's what was going to be my question too I don't think we can keep this from the public what would be your purpose of keeping it from the public it it is only only because the SOP is intended to be a tutorial document and it's going to say some things that are probably not appropriate for the public we're going to talk the the SOP is going to describe why we rejected certain ideas in the past and and yeah the public could read it the public could not read it who cares I don't want to put a 50-page document out there that people can pick pick at should put that's up to the yeah I I again I'd have to look into it but I'm fairly for some homework I'm sorry just if you could look into that if anybody has an alternative scheme and wants to spend the time at building it I'd be glad to walk away from this project that Don has assigned to me no okay that's we'll get you some feedback and we'll go from there thank you thank you thank you U Mr sandal I'm I'm kind almost resident to ask but we my firm we we have like a template set of bylaws that we provide to all all the boards we represent would you like me to send you copy if you want to take a no I would not like to see it because I don't trust anything that your firm puts out that's all right call for inappropriate can you distribute that Chris why don't you send it to the rest of the board thank you that'll be helpful is there start thank you do we have a motion to adjourn so moved second all in favor I I on good night e e