all right yeah we are on the air all right call to order and statement of compliance adequate notice of this meeting SL hearing has been provided by posting a copy of the public meeting hearing dates on the municipal bulletin board and website by sending a copy to the EO Sentinel and Courier News newspapers and by filing a copy with the Minal clerk standard board procedures any hearing conducted by the board is a quasi judicial hearing proceeding any questions or comments must be limited to issues that are relevant to what the board board May legally consider in reaching a decision and deorum appropriate to judicial hearing must be maintained at all times meeting cut off announcement is made that as a matter of procedure it is the intention of the Zoning Board of adjustment not to continue any matter past 10:30 p.m. at any regular or special meeting hearing of the board unless a motion is passed by the members then present to extend the meeting SL hearing to a later specified coff time electronic devices all in attendants are please asked to remove to mute their cell phones or any electronic devices as to not interrupt the proceedings Pledge of Allegiance would you lead us Tom I alance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible liberty and justice for all call yes okay Mr ronio is currently absent Miss Bren is excused this evening Mr Gan ois here Mr Flatley is excused this evening Mr Rosenberg here Mr Watts here miss Collins here Vice chairman Groff here chairman G here chairman we have a COR thank you so um board secretary report we have the uh nice 2024 application status is that what you're talking about yes I just wanted everybody see that yes we've literally the last three weeks received five new applications wow okay so we're busy uh okay um I've redated some of the uh the current the ones from 2023 that are pending and will be heard within the next two months so right now we're book pretty much through April well we're busy we're busy okay fair enough uh borrowing anybody uh bowing out for some reason correct right okay so we have the uh we have un common thread and we have flowers and we have uh lots of other stuff going on okay very good okay uh anybody have any questions about this okay you have any questions I was just just looking it over do we have any D variances that require um we will there's two D variances coming in one for the Sterling Firehouse is that going to be a d variance I don't oh that's your Firehouse right Ed Millington oh so Millington fire I don't think it it's becoming the board of adjustment I thought was the planning uh yeah I'm not sure we haven't decided where it's going yet fine if if it's us I'm not here if it's not us property next door to the millions and I'm not here for that either you you you will recuse but yes it will come to this board yeah that will defin that was that's that will be a use yeah that's the flower uh people right that's not Reed those that's not on here right not yet to I know on the way that's oh that's not on here any moment actually there's one sitting out out in front of my door right now oh stoling flowers oh that's a different flower place okay oh yeah that's a residential property oh oh yeah right okay I got you all righty the only thing I could say about this is is for the D's let's get notice out there earlier yeah emails so that we don't have that embarrassing problem yes we you guys can follow up with everybody to make sure they'll be in the TP all right okay now what we're going to do do we have the uh annual report we just looked at oh no the annual report is something else where is the so the annual report I I just wanted to touch on it before we go into um discussions with the professionals and and of course the professionals can explain the um importance of the annual report even further but uh what I will be providing recently and I will give a copy of the board as well that the draft that I prepare initially of the annual report this year we're going to be doing 22 and 23 because as of in the year 2023 since the master plan was being worked on and we had a new professional we decided to wait because we had had a very good comprehensive um report from the year before which I will also send everybody so you can see the previous year reports um so when I put together the draft for my portion what I'm doing is I'm just outlining every application that the board has received in the Years 2022 23 so I outline the applications where they stand majority of them obviously have been approved and memorialized some maybe some may show as pending if like in routine as our status as they're pending you know to be heard but I provide that annual report with those with all the application list to our professionals and then they will go in and they will put in their comments and review the applications to make suggestions for the board to make right based on what the ordinance say correct so once I have the complete draft of my portion with the last two years of all applications listed I will send that out to all the board members the professionals along with the previous year reports so you kind of get an idea of especially for the newest members uh what we'll be doing in the next couple months okay thank you uh rules for the Zoning Board of adjustment um can I see those sure uh did everybody get a chance to look at them didn't u i I apologize I didn't print since those were online I can print copies for everybody if you wish I'll leave them in your mailboxes if I may Mr chairman were these provided as part of just background materials in conjunction with the educational session yes yes yes and these these these board um rules are what this board adopts that's they go by so they're online all right good these the same rules from 2015 correct correct um they really haven't changed except there's one area that um we do have a little difference because since these rules were were made um in 2015 the township has seen fit to basically usurp our board staff and consultant evaluations in the sense that you as the board secretary are really oversaw by the counc committee now um so other than I mean we do have some some say on the performance of boys consultants and staff but not in the same degree as we used to so I don't know whether that is still relevant or we could take it for any Brad down version we can we if the chair uh and the board wish we can take a look at it in conjunction with the and and the the rules and for adoption of this year's version or you know instead of just reopt our 2015 I would prefer you looked at rule three col to just to make sure that it complies with the latest version of what the township committee passed I mean we we still have uh say over our engineer and and and and planner and and like and the attorney but there was a the other the other one want look which one further up front and are you looking at the rules or the guide rules miscellaneous Provisions rules rules okay so that's three colon two yeah three colon two and then and and also uh oneing 1-4 the board shall appoint and fixed compensation of a secretary of Planning and Zoning administrator a planning consultant and engineer it it has changed to the township committee app points and fixed the compensation for the secretary and planning and zoning administrator we still appoint and fix for the engineer or the attorney and a planner which is the latter consistent with the municipal land juice law yes so the former discretionary yeah you might you might yeah you might want to adopt change the wording in that yeah one call one D4 we got them both okay and we maybe make a I don't know if we need a motion and not like well let let well why don't they come up with it and then we okay that's what I mean for the for them for Steve Ed Chris to look over the entirety of that I don't think we need a motion to have do that no no no no yeah we we will uh we take our marching orders we'll we'll do it we'll have redlined versions for the next once they fix it then we'll adopt it into the I didn't know if we just needed to them do it or all right applican Guide to the universe all right um that's an old one yes I like that one it's a goody yeah C keeper so we have um back we have little cartoons in here it's so cute um the swing one is that's that's an oldie but goodie I haven't seen the skeleton one yet you have any of those in your um did did everybody get a chance to look at these over I these have been pretty much vetted and and over time we've honed the the out the procedure down so that people don't feel as burdened by the procedure and don't feel as uh alienated or intimidated by it so I think that we we have done a lot to make the procedure a lot simpler and and easier and more more intuitive um so you know I think that's I I I think we've come a long way since I started on the board here is is this the package that's uh provided to people when they when they walk in the door I mean yes and no people don't take it that often I honestly I I meant to print out um I what do you mean they don't take it you give it to them and they say no no no what we do is I usually send them like the website where you know or the document electronically and just have them look at it if they ask for for but sometimes they look at it yeah you can't force the the water the hor to drink the water um sure they may have an attorney who doesn't need to read all this because they know yeah right well most attorneys that have come before us know this already this is more for the U pro applicants oh Pro applicants the you know the attorneys that may not be as as uh as knowledgeable about it and and also you know this makes the pro person who doesn't want to hire the attorney who has a small project more comfortable with coming reforce because he can read this over and say okay I got this I understand what I have to do and it it helps because we had people come in here before we had any of these guys and they didn't know what to to tell us you know if you don't know what to tell us we can't help you so that's the problem the extension number for the uh um is this correct set up a meeting with Cindy Keir may want to update no yeah we got to update that I thought I changed all exension 128 aren't you like 118 or 117 or 28 yeah I think is it 218 so your email address is here pz cord yeah on page two the one with the one with the yeah you got to change the name I thought I got all the synd for no you have to find a replac oh yeah it's two places it's the first page the second I don't have this in a Word document so I have to yeah but I have convert it into a Word document yeah I'm very computer hand good good good sometimes it screws up the pagination but it'll uh it'll be all right I can fix it yeah all right well aside from the names I think that's a good document uh L use ordinance code book um that's online right that is online yep and I and I just wanted to that is you know if anybody ever has any questions about the land use or you know you all I I always take people you can come sit with me and we can go through it an after you know spend an hour or two uh if you have any questions it's pretty easy to navigate because the search bar at the top even if you put in like today I put in m-h for the Myersville Hamlet Zone that I was looking at one of the properties for and the search engine is really good yeah but if anybody ever has any questions about it or would like help kind of navigating my office is always over good all right now uh New Jersey planning officials they have they have a guide book is that what you're referring to what's that their guide book guide book yes that will be provided to the new members and the new members also get MLS but I think I had a couple I had one of our other Vice chairman asked if um I'm G to try to get other copies of the ml yeah we should yeah for everybody yes for everybody that's that's the goal for this year okay okay now besides what's listed up here we're going to have our engineer our planner and our attorney give us a little primer for some of the newer members um I think the the important thing for members to understand whether you're new or you been sitting here for a while is how to listen how to ask intelligent questions or questions that are probative and how to get the information that we need to make decisions so who wants to go first the the attorney always goes first and then nobody ever else you know no one else gets a chance to speak right but but we're going to do the way we're going to do this is I'm going to run through roughly Pages 33 to uh about somewhere in the neighborhood of uh well let's see uh 76 ballpark uh on the outline of the PowerPoint that I have there we're going to go through it relatively quickly touch on all the subjects uh and uh as we go my colleague Chris seski as well as my colleagues our engineer Joe voy and Liz Laney our planner um will provide the color commentary jumping in periodically um giving the more important practical advice um uh the intelligence stuff the the stuff you need to know I'll go through most of this stuff you probably don't but uh the a little self-deprecating humor for those who didn't recognize it the the the um uh and this will be a refresher for uh uh our existing board members and our new board members uh uh hopefully will be helpful for you as you navigate uh your way as zoning board members I will say the additional materials don't be overwhelmed by the magnitude of the materials um there's the annual reports these are all the rules they're all helpful documents for you to be familiar with um I particularly like the applicant's guide to the Zoning Board of adjustment because you don't always realize uh uh we see it from the deis as the judges and jurors hearing the applications um but there's a process that starts before it gets to you and continues well after you're done with it um and so it's good to see that process from the eyes and ears and brain of uh the applicant as opposed to just the judge or jury uh which is what who we are um the um also there's a course uh even though you're taking this course so to speak with informally there's a DCA certified course through the njpo also the somerson County Bar Association and others offer it uh and it has to be taken within 18 months of your board membership for you to continue on I strongly recommend commend you try to make that three months instead of 18 months uh to familiar familiarize yourselves with the things you need to know as zoning board members uh even beyond that which we're going to cover quickly tonight unfortunately you only have to take it one time yes only only once um the and the best news is you won't have to hear it from me anymore I stopped teaching it about two or three years ago so so um the uh uh before we get to page 33 though I just want to mention that what you give it Somerset yeah I said yeah Somerset County Bar Association in April oh Li Liz is going to be there I'll be there there you go I'll be uh yeah that they they offer it as well then in April so if you uh don't take it through the njpo uh uh you can take it in uh that's going to be an inperson at Ron Valley Community College on April something Saturday morning they have two versions a certified version and a non-certified if you already been certified you can take the non-certified version yeah the the advanced uh but but this will get you those uh those credits there's a little exam it's a 10 question multiple choice you will know the answers I trust me uh so there's no backing out you're going to pass uh the the um so uh what are you doing on the zoning board uh you're serving uh your fellow residents on a volunteer basis so thank you and they should and no doubt will thank you as well the um zoning generally uh is a balance uh because everyone has a right uh to utilize their property um but also uh everyone else has a right to to uh uh the use and enjoyment of their property unfettered uh particularly those who are immediately adjacent or whatever the Rel relevant neighborhood is around the subject property so you're always trying to find that balance and that's what the municipal land use law and our zoning ordinances uh and this citizen tribunal process is all about uh because people come in and they are looking for variances variances are exceptions to the rule uh um and they have certain proofs that they have to prove to you in order to be entitled to those variances um and often times they're granted uh whenever they're granted uh there are always conditions of approval to mitigate or minimize the detriments associated with any deviation from a zoning ordinance because if you're asking for an exception there's a assumption that the rules apply and if you're going too close or too or too high uh to a n too high in your building or too close to a neighbor uh there's a there are detriments associated with that so the conditions are to minimize those um so you are jurors or judges sitting hearing the evidence what's important is you have to know what the criteria are and the questions to ask and to make reason determinations as to whether the applicants met those criteria there their burden of proof or not just like in a court of law we call it a quasi judicial administrative body um the before we get into uh everything you do that is quasi judicial which is 90 some odd percent of it um we'll talk first about the 2% that is not quasi judicial because every year at least once and often only once uh we have an obligation under Section 8 of the municipal land use law as his Zoning Board of adjustment to adopt an annual report and Steve's going to do his quick soap box and then we're going to hand it off to Liz uh the the if that's okay yeah well why don't you go through I have some things about the annual report which maybe maybe you should just go through your entire oh the other thing and then we'll flip back to it okay yeah and then we can talk sounds good but I could so is not to make you wait till the end to find out whether the butler did it or not I'll tell you what the annual report is uh and and basically as I said we're a quasi judicial body the governing body uh uh uh uh the the uh Township committee is a uh is a legislative body tripartite government from back in those classes we took in the old days me the real very old days um the planning board happens to be a hybrid they have a governing body member uh as well as a mayor or mayor's design uh uh on that by definition to be able to do some legislative aspects and some judicial aspects um but the one uh non-judicial aspect that we do is the annual report and where it fits in in my opinion is this uh a we hear most of the variance cases uh particularly a lot of matters involving Residential Properties uh and while the governing body together with the planning board makes the law adopts the zoning ordinances and the land use ordinances we as a zoning board see more so the result of those ordinances and a lot of times uh well-meaning ordinances um for lack of a better phrase they sort of catch things in the net that they they perhaps weren't intended to catch and you might find that uh applicants are showing up a lot residents are showing up a lot for something that had the ordinance been modified they would necessarily have to spend the time money and effort to appear before this wise zoning Board of adjustment uh to to act in his quaza judicial capacity so it's very important that it sort of closes the loop in zoning law at the municipal level in my view uh and that is the the the planning board weighs in with respect to the master plan the governing body adopts zoning ordinances and all land use ordinances um they have to be consistent with the master plan that's the planning boards they are The Gatekeepers of the master plan not us um but uh at the end of the day the board uh they both he the planning board and the governing body by Statute get from us an annual report list not just listing what happened during the the the the past year but also hopefully where appropriate making recommendations saying we saw a lot of these and we think that this ordinance could be tweaked or what have you uh and from those recommendation sort of closing the loop then the planning board and the governing body can take that into consideration and decide you know pay perhaps we you know it's a it's a good thing to make some of these amendments to the ordinance so it's it's closes the loop and I think it's a great uh uh vehicle that is not always used as much and as well as it should be and we'll be doing it again shortly for two years worth uh so with that um I'll I'll I'll save uh uh lizz's contribution to that and we'll move on to the other 98% which is the stuff we do in a quasi judicial capacity we hear applications um we have seven regular members and Alternate members whenever alternate uh whenever regular members are not here or either absent or conflicted out alternate members one two you know in in in in the sequence move up and and sit as regular members when you're an alternate rep member you could hear the application you you can even uh ask questions you can even deliberate uh participate in deliberations you can't vote only the the top seven so to speak can vote um the uh what are some of the things you do uh you're not going to see too many of these but the beauty of section 70 is it has an a a b a c and a d and that's an important section of the municipal land use law section 70 A's or appeals just worked out that way right with the a so we got lucky on that one um the the the um what is an appeal well we have a zoning officer seated to my far right uh and uh she make certain deter administrative determinations uh for example someone may say hey I want to uh uh uh do a particular use in my zone uh and I'm not good at uh uh uh examples so others can jump in um but uh and uh Deb made decide you know what that's not that doesn't fall within the permitted uses in the zone so I'm not going to give them I'm going to deny their zoning permit and say it's a non-permitted use whatever it is that they want to do in that particular Zone um well they may disagree with that shame on that but they may disagree with Dev and that's okay they can appeal her zoning officer's decision who do they appeal to they appeal to us the zoning Board of adjustment uh that's one type of application we can get a different but similar often application is a 70b application that's an interpretation unfortunately it you know it didn't start with the same letter uh but but that's okay uh not everything's easy in life and the uh an interpretation for example might be um they interpret the zoning ordinance as permitting a certain use whereas perhaps our zoning officer interprets the ordinance differently and interprets that the ordinance as not permitting that particular use in that particular Zone um one is appealing her decision one is requesting this board to interpret it differently than the zoning officer there's similar ways in that example of uh obtaining the same potential result um let me do what I say I want to do as of right even though the zoning Officer says in that circumstance it's not as of right you have to get uh relief from the Zoning Board of adjustment to do it um and uh often times if someone is making that type of application either an appeal or an interpretation the applicant at least would be wise to have an in the alternative and the in the alternative would be if you uh uh believe the zoning officer is correct and I'm wrong uh and say it's an uh the use I'm asking for in this zone is a is it indeed in your opinion as a zoning board a non-permitted use as a zoning officer found give me the variance to be able to permit that use that was deemed non-permitted that's the alternative relief they would be asking for that's a devarian I'm going to do C's Before D's but the first thing I'm going to do is answer a question okay the applicants supposed to have the variants at hand when they're coming before us before the board with the with a uh an appeal or an interpretation I'm not saying they have to but what I'm saying is often times uh uh if they are appealing a decision of of the zoning officer Andor asking for an interpretation from the board it's to be able to do something without a variance uh that they felt under the ordinance they were entitled to do so they would be wise in my opinion because then if they only came with a an appeal or an interpretation and the board said no you're wrong we think the zoning officers right then they have to come back then they have to go home and they but if they in the alternative asked for well if you deem the zoning officer corrected me wrong as the applicant then in the alternative please give me the variance that she says I need oh okay so they don't have to come up with it on their own you've kind of indicated to them it's probably for this variance and they yeah should have some knowledge exactly but they tell us what variances they want we don't tell that I've never seen someone come before for an appeal or interpretation it's a full-on application we have had them in the past gu yeah before we've had people come before because of in fact we've had Zone the past zoning officer come and testify to us as to why he thought it wasn't and they it was exactly the same circumstances he's saying they came before us saying we disagree but if you find in his favor here's the variance we want okay so that's that's scheduled and that's at a formal thing like this it's not exactly it's a hearing I I'll I'll I'll let you in on something I did it once uh as an attorney representing an applicant many many moons ago uh and was actually successful so they're best off coming with a good attorney when they're coming for a uh for an appeal or interpretation I've just never I mean this is kind of like my first time hearing I would imagine that there's always been a no I don't need that person coming through the door right um and but I've never seen them here so standing at the door when they come through so when when I did it it was an ABC and D that's why you don't let me do them but uh I I I appeal the zoning officer's decision I won't bore you with the story but uh and I said and also uh interpret it my way not the zoning officer's way and by the way if you agree with me it's a c variance give me give my client the C variance and if you don't agree with me uh and it's a d variance give my client the D variants you have all the bases covered I I I went through the ABCs and D's of of zoning on that one uh as that turned out uh uh the board said we don't want to reverse the board's the zoning officer's decision but we're going to interpret it the way you say now and going forward and therefore your client only needs a c not a d offline I'll fill you in on what it was all about do you like roll right into the application at that time exactly yeah and we got sub all the appr for it that that when we actually got a unanimous approval so whether it was a C or D arguably we might have won anyway but I was glad I argued to get it down to a C made it easier proofs and didn't have to get five out of seven only had to get four out of seven I'm going fast for our new board members but now we're going to backtrack why is it sometimes four out of seven why is it sometimes five out of seven C's C's are a majority D's are a super majority so uh I'm going to go back and may I add that's why it's so important when Deborah says are you attending to say yes because if we need five we need five and it's not fair to Deborah and it's not fair to the applicant if we can't guarantee that people are going to be here right so you know he doesn't want five members he wants nine seven he wants he wants all nine sitting there because quite often with nine members the applicant has a second time he comes before it's not always a onetime deal well if you've got all if you got everybody here and you have the alternates maybe the second time one regular member is not here but the alternate sat so he can he knows about it or he or she knows about it so it's always good to have on those type of variances all nine of us here and by the way I made a mistake I said Section 8 that's the rule that's the bylaws provision of the municipal land use law 70.1 is the provision of the municipal land use law that requires us to have at least one uh uh uh report uh annual report generally it's only one so I'm going to skip over to page 42 on the PowerPoint Plus or the handwritten I mean the uh the sheets that you have in front of you uh to get into uh C's and then D variances um but uh generally the the what we're talking about with numbers um there are seven regular board members uh seven members sit uh four is a quarum so if you are only hearing uh uh C variances which we refer to sometimes as bulk variances or dimensional variances uh for a particular application you can have as few as four and that's okay it's three out of four you know majority for passage um preferable to have seven or or closer to seven but it's okay when you get to the D's of course just to go back to the math if you need five yes votes you can't get five yes votes out of four people there's an old joke about it involves politics in Hudson County I'm not going to get into it but uh you could read between the lines or or if you're old enough like me to remember the joke but but um but uh but the fact of the matter is for D variances you want at least five board members and think about it if you're the applicant you got go five for five run the table right uh you'd prefer to have six or seven board members there to hear the application so that it's uh you know five1 or 52 but you could still get your five and pass so In fairness uh to the applicants we try to provide the full compliment of the board The Forum we're volunteers if I may interject to there have been times when we have had a de variance the applicants been sitting here we've only had five voting members present yeah and then we give the applicant the opportunity to either go forward without a vote or you know go or carry to another date when we can assure them that we will have seven voting members but that that is unfair to us as members because we've showed up here and it had to be canceled and it's unfair to the applicant because now he has to pay his experts twice for showing up here so that's so just well and it backs up other members right it backs up other applicants right so I'm speeching to the choir here but but it but please you know make every effort to be available and If you're not let Deborah know as soon as possible because it's always better to avoid that situation and not have to do it in person if we have to adjourn it and just while we're on the subject the the you may ask well how does somebody who misses a meeting come back the next meeting and know what happened and vote and the answer is you have to watch the video listen to the audio tape or if there happens to be a written transcript sometimes with big applications applicants will have their own stenographer do expedited written transcripts um you know read it but you have to read Andor watch Andor listen to the uh entirety of what you missed and then you sign a certification that uh uh uh that that Deb will give you that I'll not toize or Crystal notorized um and uh uh that you did so so that you are now qualified to continue to hear the case and ultimately vote right and it's a lot easier now when I first started it was only tape there was no video at least now you can watch it without falling asleep hopefully that's true that's listening to it was a was definitely a snoozer so so bulk variances C variances um uh there are c1s and c2s just like in the Statue Steve loves it when the statute matches up uh the the and those are not two types of variances those are two alternative me uh ways in which an applicant can prove an entire ement to a certain type of variance so what what are bulk variances they are bulks and dimensions they are um uh setbacks front side rear yard setback zoning ordinances will always say that particular structures can all uh in in zones and different Lots can only be uh have to be at least X feet set back from the front property line the side property line the rear property line um can only be uh so tall uh can only have so much impervious coverage which uh or building coverage building coverage is a footprint of a building uh one floor that's it that's what covers the ground uh impervious coverage is the building and any other uh perious no impervious uh uh uh uh covering driveways accessory structures Etc um why because uh I'm told by is much greater than mine uh like Engineers like Joe um uh if it's not grass and ground covered the water's not going to go through uh and therefore it's going to run off on to other people's property so uh that's a simple explanation because when it get comes to that stuff they don't get any simpler to me so so um so so those are bulk uh and dimensional and coverage variances those are C variances um and uh what are the ways in which an applicant can prove them to you an entitlement to them and and let me take a step back as I always take a lot of steps back um all the proofs for every kind of variant in a real broad sense are the same the applicant has to prove both the positive criteria and the negative criteria what is and isn't the positive criteria and negative criteria changes uh based on whether it's a C1 a C2 or certain other D variant is but it's there's always going to be a positive criteria and a negative criteria only in land use uh can you require somebody to prove the negative I love it uh so uh but we'll talk more about that later so um so uh what is a uh so you know what kinds of variances we're talking about bulks uh uh setbacks dimensional Heights that kind of thing um one way they could prove it is a C1 what I call the what I call what we call the undo hardship I didn't make anything up uh but the bad jokes uh un uh an undo hardship variance uh and that uh for the positive criteria for an undue hardship variance a C1 variance uh and I'm just going to paraphrase because I've been doing this too long um the uh you have to look at the specific property and there has to be something about the property the unique That's Unique topographical uh uh uh uh situation the size narrowness environmental constraints on the property uh there may Wetlands um feel free when I get you know to help me out guys and the GS the the the the um uh something that makes it unique that results or or uh buildings that are lawfully pre-existing on the lot can also cause this or in or any combination of the above uh that that's so unique that it makes the enforce the strict enforcement of the particular ordinance Thou shalt be at least 10 ft feet set back from the side yard or whatever the ordinance is makes it an undue hardship uh on the applicant or extreme uh uh extremely impracticable there's certain language I got to double check the language but you know it's it's not impossible okay um but makes it extremely impractical if not an undue hardship on the applicant to strictly bless you strictly conform with that requirement if they demonstrate that to you they've demonstrated the positive criteria for the C1 um the negative CR I'm going to say the negative criteria for for both C's in a minute the alternative way in which they can prove the positive criteria under the C2 or flexible C and and literally in the statute C1 and C2 this is all explained in the statute njsa 40 colon 55 Capital d-7 C1 C2 um um the flexible C uh is just that a little more flexible and basically what they have to demonstrate to you is that one or more of the purposes of zoning are Advanced by the project and candidly uh uh that's not that difficult to do on a non-exhaustive list of the purposes of zoning are at section two of the municipal land use law uh and there are uh the list that's non-exhaustive is quite long and it's fairly I don't want to say vague and subjective but I'll say it's fairly vague and subjective so so so you have that they have to prove that and they have to show that the benefits of you granting the variant substantially never forget substantially outweigh the detriments associated there withth and often times because remember there's always a detriment associated with an exception or request for a variance because you're deviating from the rule the law that had a purpose that is being impaired to some degree by deviating from it but uh but the the um uh the benefits May substantially outweigh and often times that comes into play when you have these conditions will you uh and and the board attorneys like Chris and myself always make sure we get the applicant to stipulate the conditions of approval you know if the board so desires would you agree to do the following if there's if if your application is approved boom boom boom boom boom those conditions are meant to uh bring the detriment down minimize mil militate against them mitigate them so as in in in comparison the benefits that might have been outweighed by the detriments now might not only outweigh those detriments in your balancing uh scales of Justice mind right but may actually the benefits may actually substantially outweigh the detriments um so that if they can demonstrate that to you uh Advance the purposes of one or more purposes of zoning and demonstrate that the benefits substantially outweigh the detriments associated with the uh uh variance request they've proven the positive criteria under the alternative C2 or flexible C variants um you may ask well you know what if they prove both they don't get any extra points it's just a good thing uh you know they if they you know you're not restricted to prove it so a good uh applicants attorney or professional planner is if if there's a fair argument to make on both the C1 and C2 make it I always think of going on a boardwalk and throwing a darts you know the more darts you give me for five bucks the more darts I'm going to take because I don't have good aim and I want to hit that balloon and win a prize so so uh so you should generally I think pursue that but uh unless you're in a situation where you could lose credibility because one's really weak then but that's a strategic decision you don't have to worry about that you're the judges and jurors you're not the the applicant um before you go forward I just want to talk a little bit about the benefits because what um is clear I think in case law is the benefits have to be to the general public yes thank you not just to the app of my question who is it for the general public the municipality the next neighbor the applicant well next to neighbors the general public well it's the immediate general public but might not be the you know the whole general public the general public is everybody but the applicant basically that that are in the community because sometimes we have we've had people come in let's say they want an enormous backyard patio and pool or whatever and they'll you know they'll see the benefits that way the detriments well to them yeah and in that instance it's hard to prove that there's a benefit to the general public but that is that is what the board should be thinking about really and thank you and if I could dovetail off that uh because that applies both to the C1 the hardship not a personal hardship this isn't about you know it's going to cost them more money or they're not going to be able to get their swing set or whatever it is it's a it's a hardship um because of the unique circumstances of the the the lot or Andor the buildings that are locally on it uh that's not a personal hardship but a a from a zoning and planning perspective same with the benefits the benefits not personal but from a zoning and planning perspective are better it's a better some there's one way of one Doctrine is Kramer case uh uh the benef uh it's a better alternative than than than than the or what would be conforming with the ordinance sometimes people will come you'll say to yourself you know what uh uh if they conform with the ordinance it would have been worse than what they're asking for the variants they're asking for this is actually a better planning alternative alternative than what than what would have been in compliance with the ordinance so it always has to be public not personal uh uh the uh uh uh both with respect to hardship and with respect to the benefits substantially outweighing the detriments um Steve can I throw something in there the Mi one trying to adjust yourself um just a couple things I wanted to mention I thought they were worthy um first off when it comes to the types of C variances you might see as Steve mentioned typically it's bulk regulations right your setbacks things of that nature perious coverage height right um I figured I'd just throw this out there there's other like types of C variances beyond that you might not like when I first got into this I never would have expected like the dimensions of signs for example some towns we can regulate how large the text can be on signs in certain instances they treat it as uh you know as it would be a c variance if you wanted to have you know too small of a tight face or something like that or a sign of a certain size um additionally another example would be like disturbance of slopes like in Long Hill also if you're disturbing a slope in you know usually they haven't categorized like you know up to 15% of a incline or of the 25% of the 30% if you're disturbing a certain amount of those slopes then you also have to get a a c variance so um that's kind of what I wanted to mention on that front also when it comes to hardships I figured i' just throw this out there as a you know just an example to wrap your head around what would constitute a hardship the classic one I always come back to is a a corner lot right so on a corner lot you have two front yards or will say like you know you can't have I don't know a fence in your front yard right for example um I'm not saying Long Hill in particular but just as a general matter so in that case That's a classic example okay I want to put a fence on my side yard well it's not technically side yard it's my secondary front yard it just looks like it's you know a side yard um so would the side of the house but it's the front yard to the street right exactly and because that's a you know you have two front yards that's kind of like a textbook type of hardship depending on what the application is right like like if you you're trying to put a a shed in your backyard you can't just say oh I have two front yards so therefore I should be entitled to a shed well no that doesn't really play into the fact that you have two front yards if that makes any sense so yeah that's my Spiel just wanted to do my color commentary justify one of the things we wanted the audience to to uh fix in town we wanted them to Define that if you pick a front lawn that's your front lawn and the rest would be considered sidey yard regardless if there's a street there or not that was one of the issues we had right because it would make it so easy well sorry I don't want to interrupt Steve no please Steve want you to interrupt them in that instance I think most ordinances require Corner lots to have two front yards but what I think we wanted to do is have them pick of the other two yards pick one of them to be a rear yard right and the reason being is because the rear yard setbacks are much deeper right and that's good for everybody it's good for the applicant because it gives them a backyard and it's good for their neighbors because it gives the applicant a backyard it gives yeah there's there's a greater bu and so anyway it's all right no you're right so so those are uh those are the criteria the positive criteria on the C variances uh whether they're proven to the C1 the C2 or both uh of course if it's neither you know they got to they're not going to get a an approval um but that's the positive criteria the negative criteria uh uh the tough part is there's two T of it the good part is it's the same negative criteria for a C1 and a C2 and for that matter the verbiage is the same for some EV variances as well so let's talk about the two prongs of the negative criteria the negatives that they have to prove to you the first is they have to prove that their project will have no substantial detriment to the public good like most laws that's a bunch of words what does it mean um and thankfully uh uh it works out that way that's how lawyers like me get jobs um because if everybody knew what the it meant then you know we wouldn't be here um and Shakespeare would have had his way but the the the um the uh no substantial detriment to the public good in shorthand means uh that the project is not substantially out of character with the neighborhood now neighborhood the definition of what is the neighborhood could change it may be the 200 foot perimeter around the property uh that is uh uh uh uh what is used by the tax assessor to decide a list who provides a list to applicants to decide who they have to personally notice in addition to noticing by publication anybody who has property that even touches within 200 feet of the perimeter of the subject property that's coming before you for Relief um they they're the ones who get the special notice because they're sort of a super interested party by definition uh and and and and that may be the neighborhood the neighborhood might be a little depending upon the size and what what the project is might be a little smaller might be uh bigger uh depending upon uh uh uh who's impacted by you know significantly by the development but so they have to prove that first prong no substantial detriment to public good they have to prove to you that their project as a whole is not substantially out of character with the neighborhood remember substantial might be out of character but it's not they have to prove it's not substantially out of character the other Negative they have to approve the second prong of the negative criteria uh that their project will not substantially impair uh the Zone plan which is essentially the master plan or the zoning ordinances so uh remember what I talked about earlier there's a legislative body the governing body that together with the hybrid uh uh uh uh planning board uh uh uh implements adop adopts and implements our ordinances zoning ordinances land use ordinances um well that's their job uh we we are uh the Quasi Jud Judiciary we're not supposed to be quasi judicial activists we're not supposed to legislate from this bench right uh is the old Theory or hopefully still the theory uh the um but we're not getting there we're not going there they the the um but uh so if you feel that what they are asking for Rises to the level of substantially impairing the intent and purpose of the master plan and the zoning ordinance essentially what they're asking you to do is legislate from the bench and uh we don't Zone by variance we Zone by ordinance we go through the legislative process uh these are allowing exceptions but we don't you know the exception can uh uh uh what do you call evaporate the rule or you so so um so again no substantial impairment so in essence if it rises to the level of being a usurpation or arrogation I like to show off those SAT words because I didn't get them right back down then um the the the uh if it's a usurpation or arrogation of the authority of the legislative body the governing body and the planning board to to Zone well then they're asking for too much and they haven't uh proven to you that second prong of the negative criteria um so that's what they have to prove on the bulk variances and they got to get four out of well they have to get a majority out of however many of you are there that night hopefully always seven voting members um there are D variances those are sort of the super variances right uh so there's a an increased uh uh uh burden of proof that the applicant has to to prove to you an entitlement to this relief uh and they have to get five out of seven or five out of six or five out of five or you know I'll leave the Hudson joke uh the the the um the what are these D variances well a D1 use variance that's the uh Apex the most difficult variants to get uh that is allow me to do something a use that is not allowed in the zone uh extreme example it's a residential Zone I want to have a commercial use right smack in the middle of all the single family houses um that's an example of a D1 use variance uh the proofs on those are listed on page 54 on the posit again everything's positive and negative criteria positive criteria uh they have to show special reasons what does that meing there are three types of special reasons some uses are inherently beneficial uses um uh some are listed in the ml as inherently beneficial uses some are are are found by cases uh reli by the way um always rely on your board attorneys your your your your engineer your uh you have a great attorney uh and then you have me you have a great planner and you have a great engineer uh uh and a great Z officer Avail yourself of those resources and ask questions uh uh hold us uh accountable put us to the task um ask us the questions don't don't uh uh that to make sure you have the right information uh to decide cases accurately um uh we'll let you know if something is an inherently beneficial use you'll look at your planers report you get an Engineers report uh the planners report will probably focus more on the uses um uh uh Liz and and and Chris and I let you know if it's an inherently beneficial use by Statute or or or case law certainly the applicant if it might be an inherently beneficial use is going to say it's a inherently beneficial use why because that's one of those um not go straight to jail and and do not collect $200 but go straight to satisfying the positive criteria if you can establish that you have an inherently beneficial use um you've established positive criteria automatically it's presumed to to be in the general public general welfare uh uh that particular use that's one of three ways of showing the positive criteria for D1 use variant the second is an undo hardship we've heard that before um it's sort of a a should should be at least a um elevated uh undo hardship analysis uh that it would be a a um an undue hardship uh for the applicant to strictly comply with that use uh they should be have to show that in essence their uh their lot would be zoned into economic inutility total economic inutility like you've basically condemned my lot has no value that's very rare but it's at least a potential uh second of three ways in which somebody could establish the positive criteria for D1 use variant relief the third the most uh prevalent one is what's called particular site suitability uh the site is particularly well suited for this use even though though the use is a non-conforming use uh a commercial use in a residential zone or as an extreme example um uh does not have to be the only site in town uh that fits the bill our courts and the price Vedic case uh uh judge Justice hones uh uh outstanding jurist uh still should be one um that's my political statement uh the the the um the uh or at least one of the um uh she found that particular site suitability doesn't mean uniquely suited it just means particularly well suited um uh something about that site that that cries out for that non-conforming use uh the the um that's particular site suitability uh the uh so those are three different ways of establishing special reasons for establishing the positive criteria on a D1 use variance negative criteria the same two prongs thankfully you know they made it relatively easy so Steve didn't have to remember too much because that would have been a problem um so the first prong no substantial detriment to the public good not substantially out of character with the neighborhood as the appropriate neighborhood is defined uh and no substantial impairment uh to the Zone planner zoning ordinance we're not zoning by variant we're not stealing the job of the governing body and the planning board um however with D1 use variances there's an enhanced burden of proof on the applicant because remember that's the toughest one to get and it should be it's it's it's a hey let me do something that's not allowed um uh and that enhanced quality of proof is What's called the medich quality of proof it wasn't a Greek philosopher just happened to be the name of the case Michi that's pretty cool name though I think and uh the the the um and the medich enhanced quality of proof means that in essence on what I view it as more the second prong of the negative criteria uh and that is the applicant has to establish to you what we call a Reconciliation if the governing body did not list this use as a permitted use and therefore it is a non-permitted use and it's remained a non-permitted use for years and years and decades and decades through multiple master plan adoptions and reexaminations and changes to the ordinance well hey heck why you know how can you reconcile to me a right to with you know not usurp the role of the governing body in adopting ordinances but allow reconcile with me how I can allow you to have this non-conform use even though it's not listed that's the medich reconciliation of the medich enhanced quality of proof and the um and and there's different ways of doing it for example there may have been changes in the area they they may be particular uh this particular site may be near a highway and that's what makes it different and that access to that Highway that maybe didn't previously exist uh uh is a reason why perhaps it was not on the list of uses because remember uh governing bodies don't know you know they got to catch up In fairness to governing bodies they're not you know you uh a use may fit a particular lot uh but it may not have yet been listed as as a a conforming use in that zone another example is a new type of use um uh Urgent Care what's that Urgent Care Urgent Care uh right you know we we think of the things that we have nowadays and but if we're old enough to remember we didn't always have them uh and uh assisted living things are fairly assisted Liv different things so so it may just be that they haven't made the list yet micro breweries what have you so so so the use may not have yet made the list so so uh it there may be a way of reconciling it that way so those you're getting hopefully a feel for uh the what the burden of proof is for both the c1s and c2s and now for the the highest of the high the d1s um uh d uh D2 can get a little the D2 through six you're going to see less of okay you're mostly going to see uh bulk variances the C variances and the D1 use variances um but I'll run through real quick uh the others that are listed D2 is what we call an expansion of a pre-existing non-conforming use a lot of words um makes us lawyers happy right the more words the merrier um the the the um basically if if you have a use that is on your site uh on your lot that um uh was uh conforming with the ordinance zoning ordinance previously or for example might have be predated the zoning ordinance right lots have had structures and uses on them for for centuries zoning has only been around since 1920s ukian zoning uh but uh so um so if you had you have what you've heard called a grandfather fathered right or grandparent did right um but uh the the um uh so if you have a right to a for to a use or a structure being on your lot even though it's a non-permitted use or even if the structure is too close to to the front yard or what have you um you you don't lose that right under land use you you have your grandfathered right it's preserved but if you want to expand that say that use that was a non-permitted use you want to make the uh uh uh the factory bigger uh in that residential Zone you want to subdivide the lot right there's something called the rasberry's case uh with two Z's not the fruit but the the the um the uh uh and that was a case where the use didn't get any bigger but the lot on top of below the use on which the use was located got smaller well proportionately that use expanded uh because it was on half the lot uh so any kind of expansion or intensification of a pre-existing use uh the applicant has to come and and met a burden of proof it's not as difficult as the D1 use variants and it shouldn't be because they're only expanding what what was a grandfathered right to that use they're not coming to you and saying let me just do a use that's not permitted um I won't go through all the proofs there but you got they also have the negative criteria as well St two prongs uh and uh uh uh you're focusing on the expansion not on the what obviously what was grandparent did um I'm going to keep hitting your mic sorry you can say Granda they can say grandfa the the um this is I talk with my hands you'd think right but my my last name was different but the the the um you can take the boy out of Jersey but you can't take the Jersey out of the boy uh the the uh D3 uh keep them on track can I just before you go jump in this is perhaps a Nuance but it's interesting I think it's interesting things that have um were approved by a D1 use variance if they expand ah they don't go to it's not a D2 it goes back to being a D1 absolutely and so for something in this board for example if the assisted living facility is built and they want to expand they have to come back for a D1 right which is people don't always know that and they'll say no no no it's a D2 because it was it exists or whatever know it was approved by use variant they have W come back some land use lawyers and planners might even make that mistake only awfully existing prior to Z preexisting non preexisting conforming right so you have yeah you have you have three different kinds you have a pre-existing use that pre-existed the zoning rendering at a non-permitted use you have uh uh a uh uh and uh you have a non permitted use on the other end which requires the D1 then you have a a um previously approved use approved by a zoning Board of adjustments such still not that that if that's going to be expanded uh whether you're expanding a a a uh whether you're asking for a new use or expanding a previously approved by D1 use variance use uh both either one of those requires a D1 use variance it's only the pre-existing one uh that didn't exist because of a zoning board allowing it that that that that is grandfathered and and would be an expansion or intensification would be a D2 but it's it's addition in addition to existing pre before the zoning existing or exactly exactly which has happened right right but uh we we've had grandfather applications we had it in Roofing and we also had it with stone hotel where they were saying we had we were grandfathered we had this you know this use and we kept this use and you know and then we had the bar Roofing oh we've always done that and so you know it's it's those are the hardest ones because it all depends on people's memory and who witnesses they produce and what they testify to and you know what the photographs they provide and it's not that easy but the burden of proof is on the appc and there are some mechanisms to help in the process section 68 uh section 68 of the municipal land use law provides for certificates of non-conformity so what happens is this you you say to yourself well how do we know exactly what the use was before the ordinance changed and rendered it a non-conforming use one way is you get a certificate of non-conformity it's the barometer sets the barometer so that you know this is what pre-existed so anything above it uh is a uh is an expansion or intensification of that pre-existing use and people can ask for certificates of non-conformity uh from the either from the zoning officer within one year uh or thereafter from the Zoning Board of adjustment uh has the authority then to grant that certificate of non-conformity otherwise it's ultimately up to the applicant to demonstrate to you what their use was and when and when the ordinance rendered it non-conforming and and what they had you know to sort of give you that certificate of non-conformity that barometer so that you could figure out what is over and above uh uh that use I just wanted um to add in a point an interesting point from a zoning officer perspective on a daily basis weekly basis whatever I hear from residents the term grandfather so and I'm just putting it out there for whoever is listening we don't I we don't really use the term grandfather people say well you know this expansion of this house is Grandfather because I'm saving this wall or that wall no no there's really grandfather used to and Steve you can correct me if I'm wrong and my experience was a term that was used decades ago now I will say that if records in municipalities are kept well that me as a zoning officer has only been here six years versus you know the how many years that long Hill's been around if I can go to records and I can find something okay you live in a two family home but you don't have any records that states that there's a to two family home on your property right well let me go see what we have if I can pull records like our property record cards um if it says grandfather to family guess what in that case I'll use the term grandfather because it's in the records so if there's a situation especially if somebody comes to us in a use variant situation well you know oh well I've been I've been running this business on this property okay great but unfortunately we don't have any records for it whether it was a flood in the 1950s or whatever so if you if a applicant cannot produce the documents to prove that a use was grandfathered or that they had permission sometime in the past then my job is to send them back to the board yeah and start all over again to either prove it to us or ask for that variant correct and and and applicants who do it by testimony by photographs by records by neighbors neighbor well you know sometimes there's a history book that was written and maybe it mentioned it in there any manner in which they can show that that use somehow existed there prior to an ordinance they can come back and show us and and and uh like I said it all depends on people's what scrap of paper they can produce these being us experiences sound like they're very uh more often you know on a commercial or a business property are there DS and how would they be for a residential property I mean we're saying yeah two family s okay so again that's the use so it has nothing to do with the structure so when you have like a house that's already built too close to a property line and they want to bump up a level that's not in the D World at all well we're going to get there though it depends because there six is is uh uh a significant height variances right that's it's a bulk variance but if it's very high and I'll get into that in a moment uh then it rises to the level of being a d variance no no pun in 10 but the uh as well as floor area ratio which I'll talk about in in a minute but so uh but but what I'm going to talk about in a second is D3 conditional use variances um now there is a section of the zoning ordinance that has permitted uses for different Lots you know different zones excuse me um but then there are conditional use variances uh there's a zoning section of the zoning ordinance in every municipality that says these uses are permitted as long as they satisfy the following conditions uh often times uh may be houses of worship institution type uses uh houses of worship home offices uh Liz Deb all few out there yeah yeah driveth through the the one issue I will say in Long Hill is the conditional use standards they they should be very qualit uh quantitative quantitative yes and unfortunately in Long Hill they're very qualitative so which means it's a little bit like vague you know oh it's it's not going to impact the neighborhood or so you know something like that that's one of the conditions well how I don't know yeah usually a conditional use would be this is a permitted use as long as um it's not uh the lot is is at least X acres and it's not located closer than x th000 ft to a a school or whatever or whatever it may be well can I can I just ask you I'll ask you this because there are in the ordinance some things like we've run into where for example um upstairs apartments and there's conditions but it's not a conditional use I know it's not in the conditional use section of the ordinance but they're conditions that say oh you can't exce density you can't exce you can't do X Y and Z I'm going to reserve my right to have a different opinion uh uh should an application come before us but generally yeah the the the the it's supposed to be in the conditional use ordinance section of the zoning ordinance for it technically to be a conditional use that requires D3 variance relief if not if the use satisfies all the conditions but if the use uh violates one or more of the conditions um and it's not quite as uh uh difficult to prove as a as a use variance nor should it be because it's actually a permitted use it's just violating one or more of the conditions uh uh uh of of Permitting it um if it conformed with all the conditions it actually still has to go to a board the planning board because it's a conforming conditional use they still have the gatekeeper and bless it so to speak and approve it um but not give D3 variance relief uh zoning board anything with a d comes to us planning board can't do D variances only us uh it's owning board what if somebody wants to put a tiny home on their property that's they have to come to the board so an existing single family property oh that's interesting because I get I get questions about this every day well when you say a tiny home what what what what is it deviating from minimum minimum square foot FL yeah the would deviate from minimum square foot it would also deviate it would be a detached home a second house a second home so then it's an accessory dwelling the same lot that is becoming that's becoming we along the road we had and and and it could potentially depend on ordinances there are towns that are allowing that allow and our and are allowing uh accessory dwelling units under certain certain certain circumstances they're becoming conditional uses so it could be but we have in the ordinance we have some allowance okay similar things so it it depends on where it's located in the ordinance what the ordinance says that's why you don't have to worry about what comes to you Deb and Joe and Liz and I and Chris we have to worry about that and make sure it gets to the right board um I don't want to bore you with what goes to which board but if it's a d variance it's coming to us um if there it's a site plan subdivision or conforming conditional use approval it's coming to the planning board if it's one of those three things that I just said subdivision site plan or conforming conditional use varant approval and it has bulk variances with it C variances with it planning board um if it has one single D variance along with those site plans or sub com to us and finally if it just has variances even if they're just sees coming to us so it's sort of like rock rock paper scissors I didn't I never but my SI I have two sisters so they they they they survived then they they yeah younger sisters too but uh so uh uh uh yeah I had the under not the over but the the um but the uh uh but they did the Rocks paper scissors and so certain thing Dev variant automatically to us uh uh just Varian is automattic so it's sort of a rock paper scissors single family automatically does yeah well there's no site plan required for a single or one or two family um so but but I don't want to get too far into what the planning board does and but but there are uh jurisdictional issues that will resolve before and make sure the right ones get to you and the wrong and the planning board ones get to the planning board what about home offices now during Co people didn't go out to work they worked at home maybe they converted a bedroom or left the bedroom as it was and just put a laptop in it so funny funny bring that up we had one of those a few weeks ago the planning board was a uh yeah you know guy was a home medical professional acupuncturist he was putting a wanted to open up a uh are we 45 days post approval no we might not be can't have a memorial hypothetic it's in the ordinance there's a section in the it was it was a home office use residential single family dwelling he wanted to put it on it went to the planning board to answer your question yeah yeah you didn't have any variances depends on the ordinance uh but but we we allow that as a permitted use with standards with standards but it wasn't a conditional use where one of the conditions was violated right it was a permitted use where one of the standards actually was was uh uh needed deviation relief um and that's why it went to the uh it went to the uh planning board because it was that what would it was it a site plan he needed minor site plan approval yeah minor the standard required minor site plan approval that's right did the planning board keep going on pin and a I couldn't resist that thank you I need the company and the recording's online if you want to check it out that's all no no no that's that's a good that's a good one and uh remember to tip your waiters and waitresses that's actually that's actually a good area of the ordinance that we're going to be looking at that's been on my agenda for a while to look at to revise because now that we've had a major pandemic in the world as everybody knows everybody wants to work from home more so you solve that without forcing residents to you know go for a site plan and that's the beauty of zoning because the ordinances change as the times change and and so there's a lot to take into account nothing more important in my opinion at the municipal level than land use and I represent municipalities as Municipal attorney as well so I'm I'm not just the land use lawyer but there's nothing more important uh in my opinion um taxes and what you could do with your land home offices specifically and right of municipality govern it that whether the use has to have some commercial aspect like for example bring the patr coming to the residential as opposed to the ones that or deliveries being made if none of that is and if it's all ecommer can you is there any case LA on you're not allowed to govern it well I I don't I'm not familiar necessarily with cases say you can't uh regulate it but certainly you know if somebody's just uh uh working at home that day uh you know what I mean you know in their bedroom or or the spare bedroom that's used as an office you know that's generally not a home office use usually there's some aspect that the public renders it at least for lack of a better term help me out here Liz quasi commercial yeah which means you have custom coming you have patient the person has an office to go to and they choose to work that's specifically not permitted but if they don't have office I think that's overreaching but I'm going to take us back I apologize but it's a good a side issue it may depend on I think the municipality would have more of a say if the home office entailed people parking on your property people coming in and out uh there's activities that might affect the neighborhood traffic if there's none of that I don't think the municipality would have any right to because it's all about remember to balance we always go back I always go back we should I think all always go back to the balance property rights of the homeowner or or or property owner I should say it's commercial whatever it is uh and the property rights uh and the right to to to to quiet use and enjoyment of of neighboring properties the public as a whole as populations have become more dense especially New Jersey with a densely populated state most densely populated state zoning is very important because you know you don't want something next to you that's going to devalue your property and you know it's it's a balancing act D3 uses so I was talking about the conditional uses um how do you prove an entitlement to them uh there was a case called the Coventry Square case coming through Square standard basically what it says is on the positive criteria because there's always those two prongs and negative criteria but on the positive criteria in order to ENT uh demonstrate an entitlement to a conditional Ed variance uh you have to be a able to show as the applicant they have to prove to you that the site something about the site or some things about the site can accommodate the problems detriments problems associated with deviating from the one or more positions that they're deviating from so if they're closer than a th000 ft to a school what about the site it can accommodate the problems associated with being too close with school what was the intent and purpose of the that that that buffer uh uh uh uh distance of a thousand feet to be from a school to begin with um those are those are the type or why do you have to be on such a large lot what was the intent and purpose of that what about this particular site accommodates it maybe the site is smaller than the minimum required for that particular use uh to be a permitted conditional use um uh but maybe that lot is surround uh surrounded by a a a green uh what do you call it AC Green Acres thank you you know pres so then who care you know the birds but and the you know but but the people aren't living nearby so a lot they have no property rights at least as of yet time will tell um the the uh so that's who the that's who the uh I know the um so so it's at cry Square can the site accommodate the problems associated with the deviation from the one or more conditions of the conditional use the beauty of that cry Square case is the Court's got tired uh of coming up with new standards so a D4 and a and a and a D6 uses the same standard uh so what is a D4 floor area ratio Vari varant um I always refer to that as 2 pounds of baloney and a one pound jar cuz I always like that saying um the the the the the the floor area is not the footprint of the uh uh of the building but it's the footprint times how many floors there are if it's a perfectly rectangular building I don't but but but the point is it's how much floor area in the building divided by the uh uh how many square feet the lot is uh hence you know the potential of 2 pounds of balone one pound or too much intensity of of use on the lot um uh that was deemed uh by Powers greater than I uh to be a required D variance relief a D4 under the statute 70 D4 um and again the court in a different case Rand off Town Center said let's use that cry Square standard it worked before so now the stand the standard for proving the positive criteria for floor area ratio variance is can the side of accomodate a floor area ratio that much greater than what is permitted under the ordinance um it's kind of a cop though right can side accommodate it you know that's it's a you know it's leaving a heck of a lot of discretion to the board um but there are parameters and and you're Guided by uh as I said when Chris is here good Council and and and good good engineers and good planner um the uh D5 is a density variant you're rarely if ever going to see those you see them here but you'll see them here is going to tell you all about them viated people in the Village Center area like on Main Avenue or whatever where we've seen apartments and when it comes there's standards you can't go above five units per acre and these some of these buildings are very old and they're on very small lots and already have three or four apartments and then when you translate that to what is it for AC like right so it's much higher than it's permitted and so they do see that yeah and the density is the number of dwelling units an apartment is a dwelling unit uh per gross land area to be developed so where that comes into play you get you have to have a D5 uh density variance and uh again the standards are essentially equate to the can the site accommodate from associated with it when you get into the world of uh uh uh try not to affordable housing uh that I spend some of my days and nights in um it takes on an even greater uh uh uh but uh but but that's density the last one D6 is height and I I lied before right because I said all dimensional variances or C variances um including height but not when it's really really high just when it's really high um so when it's really really high that's a D6 variants and the way that's defined is if the height is more than 10t above the maximum permitted height which would be 46 ft uh well for a residential well actually or or 10% higher than the uh maximum permitted height then that's a DV variance why because if it's a 50 story uh 50 uh uh foot height limit and you have a uh uh a uh well let me strike that if if most single family dwellings are 35t height limits um and while in order to be 10 feet higher it'd have to be 45 feet how's that for me the the the um it would be 10% higher if it's 3 and a half feet or more about 38.5 feet or more because proportionately for shorter shorter shorter structures like single family dwelling units uh it's deemed to be a significant height deviation to go even just 3.5 ft above um because proportionately that's 10% or or more if you go above 38.5 ft than what is permitted so those are deemed to be significantly uh or substantial height variances and they go then they rise literally and figuratively from C's to D's uh and uh uh there's a Grasso case uh which very roughly paraphrasing is similar to the Coventry Square standard it's a little different um but I candidly forgot exactly the verbiage um Chris probably knows it but regardless uh the the the uh it's that same kind of the site can accommodate the problems associated with the height um there was an interesting case uh uh uh involving Anglewood Cliffs uh jacobe uh I think it was uh where it was interesting to me and others because it sort of redefined what is the appropriate neighborhood in that particular case it was a very tall building that was being built on the Anglewood Cliffs if I recall correctly and the neighborhood was actually determined by the Supreme Court of the state of New Jersey uh to include New York City because they had a view a Vista a vantage point to see so even if there's a river in between even if there's River even if it's not it's not New Jersey New York last time I looked is not New Jersey um but but uh the they tax us but coming in and come out but the the the um a lot of politics but the um but uh but the uh so the neighborhood may not be 200 ft it may even be across the river potentially uh uh so so but that was a height variance case uh as so that was in their favor to make New York part of the neighborhood uh well the objectors it was in their favor because they were saying if it's going to kill the view in the city uh then you got to figure out how to fix that oh you mean if it's G was in the Palisades and people were saying that's a preserve oh oh okay all right cuz I thought if they were comparing it to the height of those buildings oh no they were saying that the view of the Palisades is being oh okay it was taken for that okay yeah from the various yeah they have that same thing down in the Wildwoods that if you're block off the ocean and there's one of the hotels want to raise their park their their swimming pool they were there was objections by the people across the street because it would block their view of the ocean what little sliver they had of the ocean it would block The View I don't see where they had a right to that but you know and here you have a hotel sitting in there looking like a bombed out City because they can't build because they're in litigation yeah so it's like and that was their right to say well you're you're blocking our view so I'm going to real quick rifle through 72 to 7 something 77 or six or whatever just to give you an idea of the process that you've already been experiencing very quickly um but I invite my colleagues to jump in to to fill in uh with some color and flavor um but these these applications you know a lot happens before and after uh the before is they file applications for development uh uh they get deemed complete pursuant to checklists they have to have all the right items or get waivers from these items it's a very uh their time frames I won't bore you with all the details um but ultimately the application is deemed complete uh it is scheduled for a hearing uh most applica in fact every application before you is going to require a notice uh uh uh some planning board applications don't um that notice is both public and personal the applicant has to publish in the newspaper uh the official newspaper uh uh for a board there's a couple uh the um uh at least 10 days prior to the date of the hearing uh so that the world can get the announcement that this application is going to be heard before this board uh uh uh on such or such a day time and place and then everybody within 200 feet as I said earlier they get a list from the tax assessor here's my lot or my lots that are affected you know because I have a couple of lots maybe there's access from one into the other what have you do a 200 foot around it and give me all the uh names and addresses or at least the addresses there's a law now that we can't necessarily always have the names um to protect people particularly those involved in the Judiciary uh the the uh and prosecution PR prosecutor's office Etc um but you get those addresses they have to give personal notice either literally deliver it or more often than not certified mail with proof that it was certified mail at least 10 days before uh of the hearing that's the process of notice to be able to appear before us once they appear before you you'll ask all the relevant questions they they have the burden of proof positive negative criteria not to interrupt but the purpose of the notice is so that anyone who may be affected by it by flooding by view by any reason whatsoever has the opportunity to come if you speak for it or against it that's what the notice is for it's to make sure the people have that have skin in the game that's going to be either financially adversely affected by some reason or they might think they are or they might like it that that gives them a right to come and they make their presentation it may be just the applicant him or her themselves uh they may have a an engineer an architect a planner a lawyer all the above depending uh and they put on their proofs quasi it's a ad we're an administrative body quasi judicial uh the applicants Witnesses go then the board asks questions the board professionals may be afforded an opportunity to ask questions of each witness the public should be afforded an opportunity to ask questions of each witness there's discretion for the chair you could go through all the witnesses first then ask them all questions or you can go one by one uh there's discretion there but it's a due process state and federal Constitution due process clause everybody has their right to a fair hearing uh also confrontation close everybody has the right to be able to uh uh question people who are testifying uh as well as those who might be testifying against uh other words so I will and Chris will swear everybody in uh including our board professionals because they in essence are giving testimony and there's law on that um the uh uh then uh uh after each Witnesses goes and the applicant maybe rests their case uh members of the public who already have asked questions of those Witnesses uh can then uh make public comment uh sworn in because it's testimony uh they may have witnesses they may have uh exhibits pictures they may have an attorney they may have an attorney uh in which case if they have an attorney they themselves cannot ask questions only the attorney can ask questions of the applicants Witnesses but they still can make public comment they still can testify uh those members that of the public who are represented by Council neighboring objectors or representative cheors that's the process that when it's all over you earn your money um because you have to deliberate and decide the case and whether and vote uh and as before a majority for bulk variant C variances uh uh five or more for yes votes for D variances um uh Chris R I will uh not only uh remind everyone of the relief being sought uh prian uh final major plan approval and bulk and D variances D1 use variance bulk variances for BL etc etc exceptions for etc etc but we will also list the conditions of approval uh that the applicant stipulated to agreed to why because you're not just voting yes or no you're voting no they didn't meet the burden of proof or yes they met it with all those conditions they agreed to right uh and frankly when you vote no you're saying no they didn't meet their burden of proof notwithstanding the fact that they agreed to all those conditions which might have minimized the detriments to some degree but if it's a no vote apparently not to a sufficient degree um that is what you are voting on deliberations are important I always say say the right thing but don't say the wrong thing uh the the um um you know if they met the burden of proof they they met it if they didn't it in um you're not supposed to be considering things like well you know uh uh uh they may we want them to make more profit or less profit that's not part of the calculus um tax dollars are not part of the zoning and planning calculus uh uh uh we're not a governing body we're not uh uh we're not a policymaking body we're considering zoning and planning proofs uh like a jury or a judge in a bench trial and uh and we are deciding whether the applicant has met those positive or negative criteria for the relief they are seeking uh in accordance with what those standards are and the evidence they presented can I uh you know sure um I I would like our planner to just we comment on some of the things that were're not supposed to consider because there is the uh decorative aspect of things you know color things like that architectural you know visual yeah there's there's been applications before this board where I've had some board members mention things that really were not things that were that were conditions that we should have taken it we should have either granted or not granted the application for so if would you go into that a little bit sure I mean this is something that is not settled I think some because what we're talking about is Aesthetics I think right and and can and it's fair to say it's a gray area right can I get it not good Aesthetics yes and and as long as it's not purple what some people will argue that one of the purposes of zoning which Steve mentioned you know on page one of the medus SP land use law is to promote a desirable visual environment and so people say because that's a purpose of zoning then Aesthetics is a valid purpose of zoning other people will say no you you can't you've overstepped you're this isn't um you know in a historic district or this is you can't sort of app say we're not the board of good taste yeah right and Beauty often is in the eye of the behold and you can't say oh that chain restaurant can't look that way um and so but honestly I've heard attorneys argue both sides saying absolutely you can and others saying no you're really overstepping to some degree you can have architectural standards and and but but listen to your board professionals on those issu because those and I was being factious with the gray area but it really is a gray area um and it depends on what you are regulating how you're regulating it what your ordinances say and don't say um so make us uh the planners and the attorneys uh and to a lesser extent on the Aesthetics perhaps the engineers make us do our hard job for you I will say though that when there is another harder variance let's say a D1 and Aesthetics is a consideration it's much easier for the board to say well if you change the way this looks we might be more inclined to prove it and so I think and we've seen that at this board and oftentimes applicants will say well look it's better to work with you and and get a better looking building and get the approval yeah that's that's a little different because that's more architectural where we don't want something that looks like this we would rather have it a straight or whatever but that that's true but I mean I I just want the the board members especially in the newer board members to you know focus in on the things that are purposeful and meaningful in in the in the proofs not go off on a on somewhat of a tangent on something that may not be that relevant technical example of that um in communities like ours where flooding is a big concern storm water management is a big concern um The Board needs needs to trust in the professionals that the technical review is within the purview of the municipality and and the board and then there are other Outside Agency approvals including DP permits right and things of that nature size of the the retention base and things like that that if the development complies as a say a major development in storm water rules with and the design is there in front of us and there is a perable path forward it is our job as a board to review the context of the land use to provide a decision that may still require Outside Agency approval so no if I know that a permit is not obtainable and D will not Grant the permit they say they can get because the conditions of that permit won't be able to be met I'll Express that in my letter okay and there may be an opportunity to work with that applicant before they come to our board so that they can be better prepared yeah to provide an application that can go receive the permit well the same thing with if there's a permit for them to get an individual permit say from d for flood Hazard or riparian there's a path forward for them to go get that permit we need to make a decision and allow them outside agency opportunity if we were to approve them to gain that permit for resolution Comm yeah well there's also where we have left the size of a deten the size of a storm water detention system up to your engineer so we'll approve it we'll say conditional Upon Our professionals approving the size the shape the position and if it works right so we we shouldn't get you know buried in that technicality because that's our professionals that do that there's still some softness of the clay with the approval um there's still some administrative leeway that doesn't affect the land use approval right that could still change technically either you know in my hands as a professional of accepting their final storm water management or perhaps D another agency wants to see something specific or the county wants to see something specific on the site that doesn't change our approval right well that that goes to the fact of what happens afterwards because a lot of times these people come before us and their plans will be one way we will make changes on our end then our engineer and planner will make other changes and once they're finalized they go before Deborah and she signs them I sign them the engineer signs them and that could take a month or two after their approval because there are things that have to be done there Al there also are things that are construction code and that often I think sometimes the board gets mired in that and they'll say oh we don't think it's safe and it's sort of like well that's not really your decision right you know somebody else will de that for you yeah I mean that's why that's why I think it's important for us to focus on the things that are our concern to see the variances the the the uh the things that that are our purview because if we get too focused on the other things we actually probably won't be as V vient diligent at to asking questions about the things we are supposed to be focused on every approval is conditional just a matter how many and exactly what the conditions are but every approval is conditional on the one hand you're not just going to say oh I think they met the variant relief and whatever happens happens uh there's a fair amount of comprehensiveness that goes into the process before and during uh uh uh the approval process and once there is presum you know if it's an approval by this board um you know the the the the uh the turkey is defrosted and it's most of the way cooked um but it might not be ready for service at the table yet there a little more to go with the professionals and the outside agencies before ultimately there's all conditions are satisfied in the post approval compliance stage of the cooking of the turkey uh I don't know I started with that analogy and I should have used a different than turkey but uh the the uh the the um uh and then ultimately you know what is what is constructed uh so have have you Steve or any of our uh experts ever been involved in a case where a board has approved the zoning end of it but for some reason they could not go beyond they could not build it because of they could they they were precluded by some technical issue yeah DP or or they couldn't satisfy something and that has happened okay and you could potentially get we have a lot of it we haven't seen a lot of that on our end but it does happen yeah I mean it could be for example on Valley Road with the county right number of driveways within distance to an intersection other things that it's if we know that those requirements are there we as professionals would strongly encourage them to go to the county and get first get guidance first get the review first make their plans according we know what might be a part of it but it's not it's not our place to hold up their application in our jurisdiction to wait for that we need to vote on the application in front of we need to review it technically and give you guidance on the application in front of usually the municipal approval is one of if not the first approvals because if if if they're not going to get zoning board approval then there's not much to talk to D or do or the county or anyone else about well they can get some information but well exactly so that's why we we we don't necessarily have the right to say get everybody else's approval first uh from County on up to the Federal government then come back and see us and we'll tell you what we think um but um we do want to have a fair idea of what the others are going to do and require uh through the process that's why it should start most of these outside approvals uh perhaps the process particularly with D or dot should start and there should be information provided uh uh uh prior to our approval um before we go ahead and prove it it's feasibility as long as it's a feasible project and permittable project which which which Joe was alluding to I think before you know if there's a path uh to to to getting the permits and getting the other approvals well then you know we can't say we're not going to see until you get everybody else's okay first so one one strong example of that would be uh somebody comes to say our planning board on an application for development they have first floor elevations of the building that are well below the flood plane or at the flood plane and we know that they won't be able to obtain permits they won't be able to build and that would trigger D variances that would come to this board there's no reason for them to be able to proceed through the completeness review and the technical nature of the application we heard at the board because they may they may get an a decision at the wrong jurisdiction because that elevation is what driving the C or D Bar and things are going to change they're going to have to come back to the zoning board and start all over again right and that's why also boards particularly with site plan applications see amended approvals um uh so uh and um every decision we make is correct but not everybody always agrees with it sometimes applicants are dis yeah you you knew look at this who could believe but the sometimes applicants whose application are Deni is denied are disgruntled by that and sometimes objectors uh neighboring objectors uh when an application is granted might be disgruntled by that they may be so disgruntled they appeal your decisions you are an administrative body uh your decisions are appealed if they're appealed uh and they shouldn't be and they're that would be wrong but if and when they're appealed it's a prerogative rid appeal they call it it goes to the trial court Superior Court uh uh uh in in Mars County I have to remember where I am the the uh we are the boot to Mars County right like Sicily uh the the the um the uh it goes to a a trial judge now these trial judges generally don't hear appeals they're the judges whose decisions are appealed to the Appel Division and ultimately potentially the Supreme Court of state of New Jersey but uh in this case they do but in this case they are they hear the administrative uh uh uh decisions the Quasi judicial our board decision that's assigned that oftentimes it's one although it doesn't have to be but they uh thankfully usually find one or two that they'll direct most of the experience in this and and they would hear it and and the appeal would be based on the record below the four corners of the record below everything there's no new information for the most part now cases can be settled and that's okay but if they're settled uh the settlement can't just be the board says all right well you take a little off the top and we'll give it to you after an appeal okay I mean that could happen but there has to be a public hearing the case was Whispering Woods I have a personal problem with that because the case that really invented this process was Warner versus Sutton so you know why I have a problem instead of a Warner heing it's a Whispering Woods hearing but I'll get over it one day but uh but Whispering it's just so Whispering yeah Whispering Warner those are two words that were never put together uh but but um right but but uh but a whispering Woods settlement we have we we would actually have a Whispering Woods hearing they uh in other words there would be a settlement agreement but it would be conditioned on because there what the court said this is public interest litigation that we once it's appealed this is matters of public interest so while the board and the applicant can agree that if they take a little you know they make it a little smaller make these adjustments we'll settle the litigation because maybe we would have approved it had they asked for a vote on that modified less Det detrimental to the public application maybe we would have said yes uh that's okay it's okay to settle but it has to be on notice to the public simar to a regular and it with a public hearing opportunity for the public to ask questions opportunity for the public to comment it is a hearing uh so it is a Whispering Woods they call it that was the case that came after Warner versus sudden a Whispering Woods case it's a Whispering Woods hearing and we have had those uh and uh can I just that's basically the process just interject one thing because I know something that your predecessor yolanta used to to harp on which I think was good which is um anything yante harps on is good is good which is is that the board in deliberating either for or against should be very clear what their thoughts are right on the record and and as as close as you can to tie them to the proofs that Steve went over tonight and I they're always outlined in my letter whether anyone reads them or not I don't know but like they're there um and and to keep to those kinds of things because the the judge is going to look at why how we based our rejection or or approval and you see it sometimes with cases where they're like the board just voted no we have no idea why yeah if you read some of the cases out there and I have the judges look very disfavorable upon boards that don't have enough meat to their decision they want to see some meat on that rib they don't want to see just bone yeah they want to see what made your decision but as your board attorney I'm going to ask for five minutes to delve into that a little quick I I understand what he's going to say but the meat means that you that you don't overstate the reason but you at least say that you believe that the proofs provided uh satisfied things but at the same time and and and this is why when we have an applicant uh I go to our experts first I have our experts always ask first because I know that their questions will alleviate our questions because they have if they have questions we have questions and sometimes they have questions that we haven't thought about so I will go to them first I will let them ask their expert I will let them ask questions of their Witnesses and then at that point we have a better idea of what they're concerned with after reading their report and having them asked questions because a lot of times with the applicant uh uh testifies to sometimes brings up new questions that we have not thought of or new issues that we had one guy that didn't know what he wanted to do with his property and we had to actually tell him so it was like okay you know what do you really want to do you'll have all kinds of people coming before us you have people that are prepared up to the hill you have people that coming in here like I don't know but you know like what do you want to do with that I don't know I didn't really give it much thought well now's the time to do it but so if that happens then I'm not doing my job no I know but no they could they could they could really they could be whacky and change their mind yeah they're but not everybody's represented or verse in the process they have they should read the handy dandy thing right but but a couple of things on deliberations and one one suggestion um uh and it's not because uh I write them it's because Chris writes them he write he drafts our wonderful resolutions uh the best uh the the the the um read the resolutions because what we try to do and what Chris achieves uh is uh explain in the resolutions the findings of fact what was presented to the board it's a synopsis uh and a detailed decision section applying all those criteria that I was just talking about before and how the uh uh factually the applicant has demonstrated the positive negative criteria for all the different VAR types of variance relief uh and and any site plan exceptions any site plan approvals or subdivision approvals uh and then a list of all the conditions of approval and then the vote it's all there if you read those resolutions uh all this stuff will start to be in your head like like M they are in mine and my condolences um but it when you get there but uh but it will help you in hearing and thinking and and asking questions and deciding the cases on deliberations I wasn't kidding before when I said say the right thing but don't say the wrong thing I'm going to tell you a little bit about the liberations um the the the uh and I'll give you a couple of examples one example is this uh uh and they're both from the same board many many many decades ago um the the uh um I had one board member who always used to say one of two things at the end of the case on his on on deliberations he would either say in my opinion the applicant met both the positive and negative criteria for the relief sought or he said in my opinion the applicant did not meet both both the positive and negative criteria for the relief saw he was always right he always said the right thing he never said the wrong thing he didn't say a heck of a lot though really right it was pretty conclusory what he said it didn't really add to the deliberations because when you deliberate you're you're going to hear different views different things things you might not have thought about you might even change what your vote was going to be and that's the beauty of that's why there's seven of you and not one of you um uh uh so it is important to deliberate meaningfully on the other hand don't say the wrong thing for example I had in that same board many years ago I had a case where um the and happened to be the deciding vote which by the way it doesn't matter if it's the deciding Vote or not if you say the wrong thing um we're GNA have problems on an appeal um but it was the deciding vote and the board member said the following well the app I think the applicant proved their case but there's 50 people out there who are against it and somebody's got to stand with the public so that's someone 's going to be me I vote no and uh after I you know stood up from the seat that I had just fallen from uh I figured out how I was going to write this resolution and there's a case uh Scully V boar right uh uh I'm sorry Scully hyen boar uh the VFW case involved a um the sighting of a tank in front of a VFW that's not what's interesting about the case although somewhat interesting but um but one of the things about the case was it basically said I'm paraphrasing um what the board meant when the board voted the way it voted was what it says in the resolution so what happens is after the decision uh Chris uh and and and and I will put together a resolution memorializing your decisions if it's an approval with all the conditions decision section the analysis everything I talked about those members who voted yes if it was an approval or no if it was a denial uh will will then review it and will vote on its adoption once you adopt that resolution the law is and Scully Boart says this that's what you meant when you said what you said and you did what you did that said and the transitory remarks of an individual board member don't necessarily constitute is what the other case says uh the New York smsa case uh that talks about Scully Bozarth says the transitory remark of what a board member may have said during the course of the proceeding even in deliberations isn't necessarily what the board me you know voted on or relied on whatever that said when I got to the appeal on that particular case that I told you about and I argued Scully boar and the resolution and blah blah blah and they had a poster board uh the disgruntled applicant who was denied a poster board of the quote of my board members what she said and and as and we finished the argument and the judge called us into Chambers and said Mr Warner you want to settle this case and uh and Mr Warner found a way in which we arrived at what ultimately then became a Whispering Woods hearing before that se very same board without that particular board member being a member of that particular zoning board anymore um so you want to say the right thing you don't want to say the wrong thing well stick to the proof stick to the proof and when you read these resolutions you'll know what the right things are to say and tax dollars and making more profit those aren't the right things to say it's our it's in the review letters it's in the it's in the resolutions um so don't feel chilled that you can't say anything you know but there's a few things out there that you've already probably figured out are the things not to say if you come up with saying I think they met all the proofs but that then you got a issue because that that usually the butt is not a good thing yeah uh that's That's a classic example what not to say and it actually happened yeah always T case yeah um any questions does that uh particular there weren't any objecting uh residents when they came back again after the Ral oh for yeah but it was a Whispering Wood settlement and and for the most part I mean you know the comments were made there made they can even be some modifications even at the hearing on a Whispering Wood settlement if the applicants willing to do it but at that point you already have a settlement agreement it's rare if ever that somebody's going to the board's going to quote unquote renag on the settlement right I did have it happen once youis what's that a whispering wooding is open there is a long introduction that explains why you're there why they're back why they're back and what the purpose of being there that yeah so it kind of limits the public in there and often the attorney will have go into executive session before Whispering Woods and tell the board don't screw up well don't don't make that happen again in so many words right no no that's okay and there's nothing wrong with that process because again as I said usually what happens is the applicant is making modifications even after the appeal and it's not just about settling the case uh which there's nothing wrong with it there's a public policy in in in the in the courthouse not surprisingly to settle cases it's a good thing uh litigation you know is expensive yeah and and the likely yeah the outcomes are unpredictable but um but also generally what happens is a modification of of the application what they're asking for that again may have been something that You' have said yes to in the first place so saying yes to it now there's nothing wrong with that um but again you know how often can you make everybody happy uh and there may well be neighbors for example on a Whispering Woods that would still prefer the answer be no no matter matter what um so uh it's not a popularity contest there will be times when one good thing when you're uh in the supermarket not going to mention any name uh on a weekend and somebody wants to talk to you about a case just say the board attorney told me I can't talk and keep serpentining through those aisles get your bread and milk and everything else that's one thing I wanted to say it's important that you go look at the site because I mean even if you passed it a million times on the road you haven't down in the backyard you really haven't seen it uh if you do go to the site let the the owner know you're there uh don't have a conversation you know you shouldn't get outside information uh and I read in in in this beautiful handbook outline here that you can say you know State I visited the site I saw this I saw that you know explain what you saw things look different in person than even a photograph sometimes sometimes photographs are Tak at angles that really are not a true angle you don't see what the neighbor sees um that happens but um you know it's just um you know just one of those things where um ask the questions don't sit here and have a question you don't ask there's no questions that are that are out of you know within reason there's no questions that's that are dumb and and share as to to the Chairman's Point share your knowledge right in the context of the hearing right generally through questioning right uh uh like say I happen to notice this on your prop is it true or was it you know was this is it why because again due process it gives an opportunity for everybody the applicant and their Witnesses and the members of the public to hear it think about it and address what your knowledge was because if you kept a piece of knowledge in your head and it impacted your vote Yes or no and you never shared it you know in the public hearing uh it's not fair to the applicants I had a situation once where uh somebody said you know I was visiting the site and I saw this this and this and there was a mess and there was all these trucks and it was overp parked and everything and and the applicant said was that on you know last Thursday you know yeah it was that's when we had the fire you know you know this was an aberration had that board member not said anything and just said I'm voting no because I saw this place and they keep it a mess and it's over or underp whatever there's too many cars and trucks and this and that they would never have known um so share the information it gives the everybody an opportunity through the due process or our government what you know our our judicial process to to to address things um also real quick ethics um you're not if you have a direct or indirect personal or financial interest or involvement in the outcome of the case uh if you live within 200 ft uh if it's an immediate family member if it's a an employer etc etc a person you've had dealings with like if I represented someone for an illegal and they were coming I'd have to recuse myself you may want to um ask me uh in private if you're not sure whether what you have to do hey you know my gut tells me go what you gut contact me and I'll let you know whether you ever uh have to recuse yourself and and regardless even if you don't have to um and believe you could be impartial you know PR May dictate depending upon the circumstances because there's something called the local government ethics law 22.5 in particular sub that based just about uh under the case law has come to the conclusion of saying uh if you have an appearance of impropriety or or or impartiality that's enough and it gets a little tight now everybody knows everybody you wouldn't be on the zoning board if you were the least popular person in town and nobody knew you and vice versa right you know and you and everybody knows everybody especially a small community um so it's not you know gez I you know I I I know Charlie or I saw him in the you know Supermarket once that's okay um but if everybody has everybody shops at Shop Right everybody so if it's a common if it's a common thing fine I mean you don't have any extraordinary right thing you want something that's out of the ordinary with the general public let me know deor go ahead I just want to add to Communications what um the good thing is that thisam here Steve Chris Liz Joe myself we're here to answer all your questions we're here to help you 247 you know um maybe not 247 pretty CL that's not true between 3: a.m. and 5 a.m I sleep I was gonna say I watch a lot of West Coast Hockey but but on the flip side there's a couple things as far as etiquette to remember when you're asking now always when in doubt just email me and then I will forward the question regardless of whether it's regarding an application or whether you need to recuse when in doubt just email me and then I will get in touch with the appropriate party um I don't mind if you go directly to the professionals but if you don't include me in the conversation or copy me the professionals will come back and say uh is it okay to because I'm The Keeper of the budget right so it's best to try to keep me in the loop now also when the four of us or five of us or whomever we send out group emails don't reply all and when you have a question put it in wri to all remember that because those are things that those go on record those are discoverable correct they're discoverable as a Corum so anytime you have questions just one and doubt just shoot me an email call me we'll get it solved we'll get you an answer again whether it's about an application that's pending that you're reviewing or something procedurally the board that we we're here to help anyway we can replying to all saying like I'll be at the meeting is not a bad thing to reply all that's different you're not replying all I'll be at the meeting is actually a good thing because all everybody know okay one person will be there I'll be there well no it's not because then some oh that's true G to be there I don't have to go let's hope that they don't do that that's not what we want but uh is there anything you guys want to add as as experts um you know I mean we have guys as long as I've been on this board we've always had very good experts uh we try and I think we have excellent experts at this time and we should rely upon them we should read their reports and and their reports are very extensive and they lead us in the right direction they lead us to what questions we should be asking and if the applicant has done their job they should have had the answers to our reports already like a lot of times the reports will say well there's a question here there's a question there a good uh uh applicant will have already answered those questions and they and they'll address that in their in their uh their Public Presentation so that's always a good place that they they if they've answered their questions they probably answered ours most of them one thing about our our reports there's there's a inherent mixed audience so you know we write our reports they're there's a balance of material that's written to you as the audience for your purpos land decision and then there's a balance of the report that's written in a highly technical nature to the applicant and their professionals right so don't shy away from when you read the report identifying things that you want to ask questions and asking us before we get to the hearings um you know and have those conversations that de was talking about the appropriate way of engaging with us because every time I write a letter it's going to be rare that every single item in there you're fully good on um especially when we get into major developments and storm technical rules and changes in regulation other different things so a lot of that content is meant for them and their professionals you don't have to understand all of it right to guide them yeah a quick discussion for five minutes can allow you to understand what balance of that is for you and what balance of that is for them if I may one thing we didn't cover tonight and uh we talked a lot about variances about process procedure hopefully some practical things mixed in there as well mostly coming from others than me um but uh site plans and subdivisions and in particular site plans we do get those when we uh uh uh have D variances associated with those site plans they could be very complex a lot of engineering civil engineering storm Water Management uh uh a lot of architecture um uh we're not even I'm not an architect I'm not an engineer I do play a planner on TV sometimes but the the the the the um uh so having a basic understanding of how to read engineering plans and Architectural plan the architecture at least to me is a little easier the engineering stuff boy but um the uh is helpful so you are going to get those and and uh rely primarily on Joe for help there um and I don't know maybe one day there'll be a mini course uh that Joe will do on how to read a site plan but we'll see about that yeah we can do that I mean I I I think and now Joe's really going to be angry at me no I think that's an excellent uh idea because uh it it would uh hone that as this was more of a general operating thing but and planning boards do review site plans and engineering PL and Architectural plans more than zoning boards but not much more um because as I said as long as there's a D in the mix they're coming to you not the planning board so we'll get our share any last minute questions before we I just wanted to piggy I'm sorry I wanted to Pigg back off what Steve was going to say because I was going to bring up that in addition to CN D variances there's other things you're goingon to have to vote on site plans and subdivisions Steve mentioned but within that category there's also um what are called design waivers so they're sort of like variances but light version of variances in the sense that your site plan requirements that's what you're that's what you have to assess is whether or not they're demonstrating compliance with your site plan or subdivision requirements so that they want it what's called a waiver from that hence the design waiver they have to prove to you that either um that requirement is going to be uh impracticable or is going to exact an undue hardship very similar to like a C1 hardship variance but they they're not required to prove the negative criteria like they otherwise would be for a c variant um additionally EXs are see one light right see one light exactly um additionally a few other things that don't come up too often but I figured I'd just throw them out there so you're not totally surprised by them if when they come up um planning variances which still kind of evade my understanding because I've very sparingly dealt with them um and I'm sure if in one one of those comes up we'll cross that bridge when we come to it but additionally there's uh also what are called exceptions from the rsis requirements that's the residential site Improvement standards and New Jersey Administrative Code sets up standards for how residential developments are supposed to be created right so every once in a while you'll have an applicant who wants to deviate from that typically what you'll see is maybe they don't they're not supplying as many parking spaces as other they otherwise would be required to so they would they would need well potentially OB C variance for not providing enough parking spaces but also an rsis exemption and again we'll cross those bridges when we come to them but again just wanted to throw it out there so you're not surprised by it when if and when they come up so too many houses on a dead end street right exactly something like that for example yep so now you have a better idea of what you signed up for when you said yes to the request to volunteer to the zoning board or filled out the form or what have you um but uh uh it's going to get uh even better and better um so you have a lot of resources to look at to to look at you'll hear uh you'll take that course hopefully in the next few months uh to be formally certified you've only now been informally certified and you're not and everything you hear course is going to be the exact things we here did tonight they're going to go into it in more depth because they have to spend all day doing it but you're not going to you're not going to four hours for well thank you about about four hours after doing it for so many so many years I might last it all day we we were able to condense it to two um with help so thank you yeah thanks thank you very much thank you for your service all right do I hear a motion to adjourn anything there's nothing else left right we have no old business and new business if there's bills to pay let's make sure no okay do I have motion to adjourn motion some move all right all in favor all right adjourn okay thank you good night thank you good stuff thank you all m m mandatory threeyear term