and call the meeting to order yeah I call the meeting to order of the AG the second meeting of the Agri Tourism Committee tonight is February 21st and it's 6:03 p.m. and so now I would ask that we do roll call for you I'll do it okay chair Darren Swank Vice chair Simon Fernandez oh right Vice chair Joseph chomas is a um absence unavoidable he's out of town um Committee Member Simon Fernandez and Committee Member Marty Holman I know that um we're also waiting for Mrs Holman um but we can get started um as I mentioned we have um it's our second meeting and we have included um you know some professionals to help us through the conversation so there you go there we go there is Stephen Hall hey good evening everybody sure M okay we really don't have a whole lot of um different zoning districts in town primarily we are agricultural residential or ar5 or rr5 it's called a variety of different things but it's agricultural residential we have some commercial but not all commercial on Southern Boulevard um within the commercial on Southern Boulevard we also have um a mixed use p and that's the Groves at Town Center and it has a combination of uses um aside from that the only other commercial that we have in town is that which was approved by the county prior to the towns um incorporation and I believe that there are two properties on okobi that um have an existing commercial designation okay so basically you know the whole town is agricultural residential yeah well I think that I think that um in in talking with our attorneys after the last meeting one of the concerns that was raised and we also talked to Stephen about this one of the concerns raised is that the um task from the council is to look at how we might modify the proposed ordinance or come to a place where we could have a balance between neighbors between AGR tourism and non-ag tourism neighbors So to that end we did ask Mr Hall to take a look at our ordinance um and we wanted to kind of go over some of that with you um and also by the way um Ruth Holmes our attorney I would defer to her um with regard to that and then um Alice Harris is here from the agrotourism association because they wish to do the best management practices too and thought that might be a good place for us to have that conversation so we can go through the ordinance as quickly as you'd like I hope that's helpful yeah I mean we can ask Mr Hall to take a quick walk through his comments because he did that with us he doesn't have a whole lot but he did have a lot of insight is that is that good with you Mr Hall I'm happy to provide whatever help I can provide one of the things we talked about at the last meeting was that um I'm just going to do some key points tell me if I'm off base because this is what we talked to with Mr Hall um we didn't want to have anything that um increased the onus on AGR tourism me meaning that it needed to be the same for everybody in town um and so if we already had something for noise that we would use whatever we had for noise if we already had something for traffic we would use whatever we had for traffic and also um uh there was another thing that we were concerned about as well but not the vibration we did not want to look at the vi odor yeah mhm and then of course the conversation we had about odor is very hard to regulate because Farm smell so I think that's where we left and the other conversation was how to Define substantial and that's where we got our most help um from Mr Hall he talked to us about the things um that looked like perhaps regulation that we needed to maybe you know recap the statements and he also provided us with an FAQ that he's providing everybody that calls um you know with regard to what is AGR tourism and how do we regulate it is that a good recharacterization Mr Hall we don't hear you because I have to push the on mute button sorry about that yes I think that's for the most part that's that's correct and I can only hear you speaking I cannot hear anybody at the table speaking if hit their microphones if there's other conversations going on or questions I think the on top there you go I think it can you hear me now yes yeah I by the way I was I was gonna make the same comment is that um you know Agri tourism that we have is is such a a benefit in my opinion maybe we're biased but um I would think small towns especially rural would want the Agri tourism it improves in my opinion the quality of life for the residents and it does so many good things and I don't mean to be long-winded but I thought to myself why would we be creating an ordinance that is going to uh further restrict that Beyond and I think that's what Mr Hall has already said but that was going to be my comment so am I to understand that it sounds like everybody's in agreement in that um what we're doing here is is is um the ordinance is going to be aspects that are going to um do anything but uh further restrict a Agri tourism is that what I'm understanding well by the way Simon Fernandez uh okobi uh been following and and studying AGR tourism and and researching it since 2010 can you hear me can you hear me I can hear you Mr yes so so uh I visited a lot of different operators throughout the state and uh when this came out uh my in my first meeting which it's is recorded uh I clearly stated and I think we're we're in the agreement that this is an unnecessary exercise in the in the from the town we already have laws in place state law protects us and state law this state law was precisely uh produced for the same reason uh some of us had small disagreements with uh and and with with neighbors and uh they were corrected so apparently because of some complaints is what as I understand this came about I'm in agreement in agreement with you that there's plenty of stuff already in the law and to sort of uh mess with that veil of protection that we get from the agrotourism law it's uh it's unnecessary thank you well so we're back to square one can I just jump in here um Stephen this is Ruth Holmes attorney um and uh I you know just from um a common sense standpoint I understand you nobody um in the industry um is excited about an ordinance that um appears on its face um to add more um regulation onto um Agri tourism and that's not the intent um so you know I think one of the one of the phrases that we have to wrestle with and I don't think it's Unique to laty Groves you you can correct me if I'm wrong Stephen but the phrase substantial impacts what are they and how um can any Community um balance uh the right for Agri tourism operators to operate their their events their facility um but yet also um manage uh to keep the peace um and Public Safety and the surrounding communities and so the um draft ordinance was um an attempt to Define um you know to give some certainty or to give some like almost kind of a heads up to AGR tourism operators who exist or who may be coming into the community look you know we think that these particular things um would rise the level of substantial impacts just so everybody's on the same page um and that's all the ordinance is intended to do um I am not advocating by any stretch got to pass this ordinance but the Agri Tourism Committee is here to do um to do a couple things and um that's to recommend to the Town Council what they think what the committee thinks substantial off-site impacts would be um and make recommendations how to measure those how to measure those impacts to the surrounding Community what really might make them substantial is there is there a quantifiable measurement um and and how can things be mitigated how what what steps can be taken to reduce the impacts to the surrounding um residential neighborhood with without impacting the AGR tourism event so that's kind of the that's just you know that's what the committee was created to do it's it's it's not very exciting I get it um I will say um Mr Swank that with the bmps we you know we we took a look at that um and we we think that there there's a couple um impediments to this committee um at this time developing bmps number one it's it's outside the scope of what the charge is for the committee that said um you know if private folks wanted to develop those or if an association the AG tourism Association or Florida Farm Bureau or whoever wanted to come up with bmps um you know that's completely on your own and it's might it might be something that is a good idea but the town you know if it if it adopted bmps um it might be viewed as um too much regulation and it might be viewed as actually contrary to the to the statute itself all right so then how do you want to proceed with what we're doing here then Ruth will we could sit here and debate how many cars is too many for any facility we could debate how much noise is too much you know what the hours of the noise would be my problem is with the noise or any of these other issues I mean I'm my property day and night I hear Dixie Choppers chainsaws weed blowers weed whackers Machinery all day long that's certainly above voice level so if these folks can do that and that's kind of an irritating sound and opposed to something that's musical that's quite Pleasant how do you define something that's obnoxious and opposed to something that's not I if these folks could do all day and why couldn't you have music all day I mean I don't I don't complain about these sounds but I certainly could I just don't Mr chair if you the microphone please that one keeps going yep if you may if you allow me please Mr Hall uh once again thank thank you for coming in and to the uh Association as well thank you for being present the how is traditionally the state have uh taking into consideration or or put into effect the the quantification of substantial so great that's a that's a great question so let me just kind of reset uh just for the record my name is Stephen Hall I'm the assistant Deputy Commissioner for the Florida Department of Agriculture and consumer services pleasure to be here and thank you for the great question um maybe let me just set use that as a question kind of set some parameters and some background about how the statute works and how we at the department have seen it work and mainly me through conversations with counties and Municipal staffs and agors and producers Etc around the state all right so to your direct question substantial that term substantial I I want to be careful because um it's it's more than just the word the statute uh prohib local government regulation of Agri turism activity on land classified as agricultural so that's the first part um um but it does not limit the P power of local governments to address substantial offside impacts of agrotourism activities or in an emergency situation so there's multiple things that local governments can regulate right so it's really not just substantial it's substantial offside impacts I think that's important and so um no court that I'm aware of has interpreted the meaning of substantial offside impact so without that judicial interpretation uh the department relies on generally the pl meaning of those terms in in legal world that's what we would do so uh first offsite to to me it is that means um and this is again my opinion uh offsite means you know things happening all regulating those things that impact outside of the property lines or impacting outside the property lines of the Agri tourism activity all right so I think that's important and then the the legislature added the modifier of substantial um and what does that mean well I can't I can tell you we can all look at the dictionary definition of what it means um which is what lawyers and judges would do generally and look at the context but I will tell you there has been a generally accepted premise around the state that that means local governments can regulate a few things um and everybody does it a little bit differently but I'll explain what I've seen that generally means light noise and some combination or limitation of parking and or uh traffic issues uh I'm careful with parking and the conversations I had with the town staff uh was careful with that because the parking on property versus parking off the property or in the common areas around the roadways right away like that that's two different things and again that's where you want to be careful trading talking about the offsite impacts um but those are the general categories where we've seen and we've seen I've seen it in a couple ways the majority have fallen um where they look at that and in an effort to not treat agrotourism activities any different if the local government has existing ordinances relating to events where um they say you know music has to be off at X hours at night and um you know every light has to be off by so many hours later or things like that and then they apply that uh that's how they they would apply those same Provisions to agrotourism oper operations um in that instance to me that that makes a lot of sense because then uh AGR tourism are being operations are not being treated any different than other existing event type situations and so um I've seen a lot of local governments doing that in some cases I have seen local governments write specific where they provide different allowances and I think you have to be I think we would have to be careful about you know the local governments not want to be arbitrary or cacious as to why they're making those decisions and treating agism Better or Worse depending on your view of you're being impacted by that as well so I think that's why a lot have defaulted into to those so to answer your question more succinctly substantial um generally means more than normal right in in in a in context but it's also those those offsite and so I think that's why you've seen a lot of local governments instead of trying to come up with something new they've looked to their existing code and say okay well we're going to say these are the offset impacts we're regulating and we're going to take our existing code and apply it to those as well so let me see if I get this right let's assume for a second that we're going to measure traffic let's assume for a second that traffic on okobi is 50 cars per hour how would we quanti quantify the substantial on that particular number is it 80 is it 90 is it 120 so that's I think the what this committee was set out to Define that and only that as far as I understand it when they approached me to sit on this committee they said we need to quantify the the the substantial part so that's where I'm trying to I I I'm a firm believer that the agrotourism law is extremely clear extremely fair and extremely uh doing his job as a stance now in here they're asking else to quantify substantial so that's that's where I'm trying to and I and I went through through the internet the State of Florida using the word substantial in many different areas construction whatever but I'm not a judge either so I I need to get some kind of guidance uh as to what would substantial be in the particular case of traffic which is appears to be the biggest problem that we've had so so far am I correct can you help us with that so I don't have an answer and what I shared with the staff well I do have an answer but don't I don't I can't tell you a number right what I shared with the staff was it's one of those uh situations where um yeah it's it's a two could be approached a couple of different ways um an agrotourism activity has its normal es and flows just like any other entity does right and if they have sufficient parking on site for their average day traffic and they invite those people and they have that situ set up and on a normal day for that Agri tourism act activity uh they're able to handle the parking um but there there there's some overflow on a really especially busy day or the or the main Harvest Festival or what have you if you take that as an example and then there's over for parking and the property brazer does not or excuse me the the the property owner does not provide for that is that a substantial impact if it's limited in time and scope such that it needs to be that you need to have a code specifically that addresses that that's really a local policy decision that needs to be made or is it a situation where there are already uh local codes in place and I understand we had a long conversation with Town staff and attorney about you know the the the the rideways and the town and and the road width not being very wide and not being set up for parking on the sides of the roads and the the dangers that can come with that and the engineering damage that could come from those kind of things and I was like well then do you already have those kind of things in place that prohibit parking on those roads on the side of the roads and then that you don't necessarily need to come up with with substantial impacts if you already have a an ordinance that says you can't park on the side of the road and so it's one of those deals where it's going to apply situationally and is it then therefore the property the agrotourism operator's problem if occasionally or in a in a limited situation people that that park at their or come to their event or to their activity breaks another ordinance with somebody going to a grocery store that parked on the rideway with the store be held accountable for somebody for somebody's bad actor that that actor doing that and so if the town's not going to do that they're going to site the driver instead of citing the the the business owner should that be something that they would want to have a separate set of regulations that apply to the AGR tourism operator and and are they treating them differently and those the conversations I had with the staff about really looking at what you the ordinances they already have in place as a way and if they are not in place maybe that's something they needed to address you know across the local government versus highlighting things specifically for um agrotourism issues thank you that answer your question I just wanted to tell you um Simon brought up a question to me about why the um special events um section of the code is in there it's only in there as an example because we talked about it at the last meeting about referencing back and forth so that's I it's just put in there to show how we reference in there back and forth where is that it's in your agenda yeah but what Mr Hall's saying is it well uh so I mean do we have do we have the special events list of rules and regulation yes I put put it in there for you where where is that one it's in this agenda the the S the one that's in your right hand and it's right behind Mr Hall's um FAQs it's uh section 80 of our code Y and nobody is suggesting that those rules would apply to AGR tourism I just want to clarify that it's just an example of how our code does some definitions um and how we reference to other sections of our code and I only put it in there because it was talked about at the first meeting not because we're trying to equate the two all right so I mean all right so then how how we going to proceed then if you know he's saying we should look at this and no well I mean he was saying to reference it yeah that's what I understood the ordinance the general ordinance that are in place maybe that's not the special events but oh just general so do we have General ordinances too that don't apply that are just generally here we do and they're all through our code we have a noise ordinance and what is that and it is essentially 50 DB after I think 10 p.m measured from the property line and it's 55 DB during the day measured from the property line um unfortunately our noise ordinance if you look at 50 DB that's nothing right and that's why I was trying to say to you earlier that I get 50 DBL across my property all day every day from multiple types of things I mean they they have this this racetrack out here I mean I I hear that and I guess maybe that's commercial so I don't know if you handle that differently I don't think that should be the case but I can hear this racetrack at my property and you know so and and I smell horse manure all day long and I bet you know but it is what it is and that's why I was trying to get you guys to Define what the zoning was of the town so everybody understands where they live I mean we're not living in the Pud we're not living in the commercial we're not living in wherever it's not downtown we're out here in lahache and I've been saying this since day one so the folks that live here have to understand that they moved to the zoning of where we're supposed to be so if we're going to try to push us out of the Z where we're supposed to be where are we going I don't think anybody's trying to push you out well I mean we're going to restrict and try to swel and complain and complain and complain it to you guys start jumping on me and it's just nonstop and then I have to come in here do this over and over and over again it's it's ridiculous what what about as opposed to this ordinance and what about and you know he even said substantial is situational and what what might be substantial for one location is sub substantial is different for another location what about um finding resources you know city or state resources that um can help solve situational issues so like assigning you know like an actual committee that goes and and even maybe funds available to help resolve these issues because I would think that this city wants Agri tourism I mean I can I I'm not even speaking for myself you know I mean we're not really um big in this in this field but I mean this is all about food and promoting um you know small farms and there there's just a million wonderful things associated with that and I would think that lock AI grow would want to be you know on the Forefront o of you know small farms and healthy food and and these type of things associated with AGR tourism so what about instead of trying to come up with ordinances you know um actually assigning a committee and and having funds to back it to help resolve you know these these traffic issues perhaps you know or whatever the situation might be because you can't you can't paint with a broad brush an ordinance to resolve problems with his situation and our situation and Joseph or whoever we have you know I mean that's why I was in the beginning of this whole process I said that when franc reached out to us to mitigate the queuing on the street we did it it's done it's over as far as we're you're concerned and the the code enforcement Andrew he's satisfied yeah close the case it's done it's over so someone's going to complain about the traffic say well they've resolved the queueing there is no safety safety issue no you can't complain go home that's it right and that's what I think okay so if you don't mind that's what we wish and i' had a conversation with Simon this week or last week we which I don't know if you mind if I share that Simon but what we want to be able to do is exactly what you said MH you and Jody came in yep you showed us the way you were going to change your onsite circulation um I can use Joseph Chamas he came in he told us what he was going to do anytime anybody's going to say somebody's building they don't have a permit we say no they're AGR tourism no they're Bonafide egg we don't have any problem with that somebody comes in and says the trees are coming down and we say no no they have an exemption they're Bonafide a I think what we're trying to do here is find a way and this is what I was kind of trying to say to Simon what you did with us lets us say no no he's AGR tourism and he came in and we worked out the problem one of the things I suggested to Simon in just general conversation is if we can come up with a way I mentioned it to um Mr Hall as well if we could come up with a voluntary way you know just like you did that somebody came in and one of the things that Simon and I were talking about is um there's an agricultural exemption for btrs um there's like five or six different exemptions for btrs if you came in and just filled out an exemption for BTR when some somebody complained we' say well we've already talked to them I'm sorry what's a BT it's a business tax receipt and you know um are you suggesting that we come in and for every event no no no I'm suggesting that like so for instance let's use Swang farms and I'm I'm making this up I'm freelancing as we're talking a truly voluntary situation that you exempt yourself because we're not going to Define you know agrotourism because you know if we go into this I think Stephen Hall can take us the rest of the way not me um if you fall into the agricultural exemption for a BTR you just fill the exemption out with the information about what your business is somebody complains we say no no they're agrotourism we already know what they're doing you know yeah for example let's assume I'm sorry I don't know what your business is but let's assume for a minute that you want to have in your farm uh Farm to Table a farm to table food trailer okay in a in a commercial situation as I understand that you need a BTR in our situation you have the options this is INS inside your property uh to voluntarily said this is what I'm doing and that way if somebody goes by a property goes hey he's selling food well he has an exemption for that bth that's what she said yeah I'm GNA give you a more detailed example the conversation that we actually had is that Simon is a sheep farmer and he's got a barn and he's got caretakers quarters or Grooms quarters whatever you want to call them he's thinking about um bringing food trucks and a farmer's market onto his property this is a hypothetical conversation um technically um it's his determination that he's Agri tourism not the towns and that was based on discussing that with Mr Hall so we said okay the first time people drive by your property because you're on okachobee somebody's going to say oh look at him look what he's doing and call us up if he voluntarily filled out the BTR we'd say no no he's within his rights he's AGR tourism you know I mean that's the way we talked about it now that is not doing a new ordinance per se it's just like you know partnering for balance just like people who take trees down that have an exemption just like people you know that have a non-residential Farm building you know they have an exemption you know how we document it now that's a different story I'll take whatever recommendations you have do you think that would have changed this situation because I I I sort of I sort of think that um there was an issue or something you know and that's why we're here so if if they had whoever had a BTR ahead of time I don't I don't think that would have changed this situation why we're here now and I don't even know who authored this ordinance but it was it was it was to it was to like you know I don't know how you want to say but when I read it my impression was it was to further restrict Agri tourism not the goal at all it's really to try to balance your lifestyle with the other Lifestyles that we have in town I'm not going to take any editorial or I'm not I'm not the the writer of the document but that was the intention of the document and I think that everybody's here so that we can craft a better document whether that's referencing to existing ordinances that we have or coming up with a solution that just works for everybody so so but back to my original statement if if if there was a BTR in in place then you think we wouldn't be here now no I'm trying to come up with something for the rest of the people for the future as result of the group because for instance um if there were traffic and it were situational I think we would always try to reach out and say hey C can we help you or you know is it true we'd go look and see if it's true because you know not everything we're told is true right um just want to say that yeah um you know we'd probably look at it I don't think that a voluntary BTR is going to change somebody complaining but I think it's going to be like the tree exemption and I always go back to I the stuff I know people complain about all the time when they call and complain about the tree exemption I say wait wait wait they they can when they call because they see trees coming down I can go wait wait wait they have an exemption you know so you know the other thing that we talked about with Mr Hall which is I think you know a tricky little thing that a lot of people don't think about not 100% of every property that that's Bonafide egg um you not is Bonafide egg so you can have you know 20 acres and five are Bonafide gag and 15 or not so there are a couple things you know that um would be helpful if we knew to protect you from complaint and that's it I think it's really open communication that would work um I don't know how we cause the communication to happen and I think that's what we're trying to solve I I think that's that's it I mean Stephen so my only caution is just to be careful with and we talked about this as well but just be careful with the fact that um something really is voluntary right um because if you're adopting ordinance is saying you have to come you know come get this permit so you can be apply apply for this exemption then you're then the the local government is adopting a procedure that their agism doesn't have to go through right so it's just just be careful make sure it's very voluntary um how you deal with the neighbors and people calling and complaining about that is is kind of a happens at every different kind of level of do that we we deal with that at the state level the department does not have the statutary authority or resources to you know come in and make decisions is this AGR tourism or is it not um basically what you got is me and taking phone calls from constituents and local governments and staff and attorneys all over the state and and being helpful that way um and that's kind of what we're do and we have a couple of folks in our team that do that as well um but I I would it's I think what I would say as far as um um dealing with the neighbors and doing that is is if this if that's something that works for your local community great and as long as your staff is in place um and everybody's trust works works great now what happens down the road when staff changes or anything else do you do you do you kind of get in the same situation but there is no um there is no government entity that has the at least state level that has the ability to decide whether something is agrotourism or not and in the specific example about the 20 acres and the 15 and5 um I think under under the law it's very clear that since it's and that's kind of where I started the conversation that the preemption on local government regulation only applies land classified as agricultural by the property brazer and bonified good faith commercial activity agricultural activity um and if it's not classified as agricultural then regulation can happen so I'd always encourage you know our producers to be care careful one about what how they're getting their ad classifications for property and then be be mindful about where they're actually doing their operations on as well for that very purpose Madam attorney any questions uh no I I don't I don't have any any questions necessarily I mean do you have any questions of of of me I I guess I it's opening myself up the Lion's Den but um so if I understand correctly the initial request of this committee to be formed to quantify substantial is null and void that's one two if uh if we don't you know and and I suggest that anybody wants to go into AGR tourism to First uh contact the the obviously this the association which is a great Association the uh agrotourism Association which is a privately this doesn't have anything to do with the state they Lobby a lot they do a great job and get a lot of information on that that's how we start Farmers into the AGR tourism as far as having a zoning for Agri ISM I think that that's total overreach of the town that should have never been there that should have never happened and that's my personal opinion this might one of the things that Mr Hall suggested though is that um if we have and I don't want to put words in your mouth but if we have townwide rules then we need to look at how those townwide rules um um are implemented and I think it is situational and it does have to do with the streets that are involved some streets are wider than others some activities generate more activity than others I like what Simon said about trying to figure out some percentage but the problem is is that we never really get there um because you know the traffic on okobi is actually really kind of high Believe It or Not 14,000 at certain um yeah at certain intersections I went and I looked after that call and and B Ro as well and let me let me and let me just be clear so I think was more of so first statute is a May right the local government's May regul is offset not a shall so I was just suggesting that if the local government decides that it needs um regulations for the substantial offsite impacts um some have done not and they've just simply said agrotourism will be substantial offset or substantial offside impacts of AGR tourism shall be dealt you know with in accordance with our special event venues and shly or whatever and to and they identify the whichever ones and some have just said we're just going to deal with it and under these other ones and they just they they deal with they just adopt a policy in their coach um team and they just apply it that way but if you're going to I was just saying that for the sake of the AGR tourism operators and so that they're very clear and know what they're dealing with that if you already have one that is a path that a lot of local governments have chosen to go down is by picking up what is already being applied in other situations if I may ask a question frine and Mr Hall you're not familiar with this area but okobi is uh in a threemile stretch they might be and I might be short 15 churches how do we deal with the substantial impact of those churches in the town roads well actually um when they have the um let's say the um food pantry we call PBSO to try to do some um management of traffic um hasn't really worked that well um and additionally when they come in for site plans we talk to them about and we've only had one come in at any time recently on okobi um we talked to them about how they need to do a better job of on-site circulation at whose cost uh would be at the church's cost the on-site circulation and that officer uh the officer we've called they haven't paid however um you know yeah yeah I'm just saying I wouldn't understand why that same mentality wouldn't be applied to an event so interestingly enough that you mentioned that um we have a situation where there's a property on okobe and they do not have the necessary access to their property um and so we have talked to them about getting a RightWay permit from the county because you know it's not our road and okobi is not the town's Road and so the county has said right on point to what you're saying that the only way that they can have access is if they pay for PBSO to do theot to do the management of traffic so there's already you know there's two different ways there's one with the food pantry where we just call them and it's part of our general yeah and they don't necessarily get the cars off the road real quick you know that um we also have school traffic in the morning that's again another situation that we can't really do that much about um but on the other hand the county like I said is is going to enforce management of traffic for one of the properties that creates a que on okobe so the question again is yeah do we have a number to to identify that substantial impact of traffic in those those businesses one of the things we said to Mr hall right in the beginning of time was that the county has a threshold at which point you need to have traffic concurrency and if you don't meet that threshold you don't have to do a traffic study that number is relatively low um and I had said to him that if we knew we had a County number you know that triggered a traffic St we could kind of use that um that number is low yes ma'am when uh town of Wellington's going to do the Christmas parade for a week or two they're advertising it on their flashing lights so that people will know that Forest Hill will be closed or traffic is going to be heavy what if something like that where we put we put signs up on Dave beautiful and then that that way people can prepare I'm not going to go to Publix between 10 and 12 at such and such time or something yes we can do that that could be a solution for it is a solution we have to fix our sign code anyway um it's also like special events um those are you know temporary signs so that is a perfect solution by the way the thing with the Wellington closing the parade they're a sponsor of the parade but we could certainly come up with something yeah have aarm table event yeah obviously you talk to your neighbors but maybe for other people that you're not familiar with something you but today you can do that and in fact if and that's another reason why I put special events in there because you can ask to get a road closed for a special event you know so um and you can also make arrangements for off-site parking there's all kinds of stuff in there you don't have to uh so when we talked to Mr Hall he said if we already had things we did elsewhere we could apply those things to other activities I don't want um to just assume everybody will understand that those would apply I think that would be something we would look to this group to kind of decide how do those apply to agrotourism but the sign definitely definitely a solution yeah I just kind of go back a bit to um you know a champion from the uh town perhaps that um you know when when we have uh a situation that is difficult um and you have a problem with neighbors I think that's the only time you know that we need or you guys want like an ordinance to address those situations is that you have a champion that that then decides which situations perhaps uh require an officer or you know or require signage and then um Implement you know these different steps just to resolve and make both parties happy on a situation on you know situational not an ordinance I mean I'm just saying I I think we all kind of agree this is not the answer and I think even defining substantial is impossible for different situations so it just seems like maybe instead of us um doing what we're asked we actually come up with a proposal back to say um you know this is what we think and you know I don't know maybe I'm maybe that's not realistic you know there's no budget for that maybe you have a counter suggest suggestion as to how we address you know the situation you know on a case-by Case basis well I'm going to turn that over to our attorney because um if if you like and I'm not trying to bounce it around I hear what you're saying I actually like bmps because that means everybody is playing by their own rules um but the problem that we have is when somebody isn't playing by your rules um you can't even going help us get them to play by the right rules so we need to be able to have some measure to enforce you know or to cause everybody to be a good actor so I think whatever you recommend our attorney can probably translate into whatever we need to get into the code um I don't know if what I'm saying is coming across to you bmps are the best thing because it's self-regulating but they are unenforceable by by the town unless we put some regulation in place that lets us enforce yeah but I don't think you guys should have the mentality that you want to enforce anything in a sense like I think you want to resolve yes not not enforce or analyze because it's yeah I think you want agorism I think you want to know that lock grows you know is known for that you know yes absolutely right so yeah I I don't think we want that we don't we want compliance so you know any example that I can give is a good story about compliance there's another operator not at the table here but that heard um through some conversation with um a council person that they should come on in and talk to us about what they do on their property so we could help make sure that they're in compliance you know and they came in they were really super they've been doing it for like I don't know 20 30 years um nobody's ever complained or anything but you know in the spirit of compliance and following the same rules that everybody else is they just came in again like Joseph Chamas hey I got this really cool thing he just came in when we called you you just came in Simon called me the other day I'm thinking about this and that so like I said if people want to call we're always here to go ahead and help you fit in you know but I I have to I mean that's me I think one of you said if somebody else leaves if somebody leaves you know what's the next person going to do I don't know and I think that's why you want to have something consistent Ruth this is where you get to well I think I I think the the question that posed to me is you know if there if there is something that the committee has a consensus about um that it would like to recommend to the Town Council like let's just take signage for example um so I was just looking at your your committee task um I think we can we can put that in that framework you know because there you know one of the tasks was looking at ways to mitigate substantial offside impact that's wide open you know uh it doesn't you know you're not graded on anything that you come up with it's just you know you're the people with the knowledge and you know to kind of look at what what might work um you know probably parking and traffic is is probably the the um biggest issue um you know and if there's a way to um have signage um during event time you know great that's a way to mitigate it right it's a way to mitigate that off offside impact maybe the signage ought to be you know maybe it ought to be this all the signs ought to look the same maybe it ought to have Lux haty Grove's emblem on it maybe it ought to say AGR tourism event maybe you know whatever the case may be maybe they ought to have a green border around it I don't know but just just those are just some examples of ways that that the a recommendation could come out of this committee and completely fit under what you're tasked to do I think you you you hit the nail on the spot the consensus up to now the consensus is that we don't need this stay law already protects US state law already has the experience and the parameters on on place now when it comes to the traffic they have it in place you guys can enforce if you if let's say an operator is parking a 100 cars in okobe then the town can send P Palm Beach County Sheriff and they can ticket all those cars that operator next time is going to lose business or is going to correct the situation we don't need any more laws we don't need any more ordinances we need less because all of that all of that brings cost of attorneys cost of Staff cost unnecessary cost on the already taxpayers so that is the only consensus that I can come out of here with I don't know if we have a consensus on that if you guys want to take it to a vote let's take it to a vote well and let me just can I just add something to that I mean if that's if I if the committee thought that that's the approach that should be taken I mean that in and of itself could be a form of mitigation right so just so you know okay and as far as the signage which is a great idea we already have that in place if you go by yokobe and it's going to be a pumpkin patch the church and I forget the name of it which they do a great job they have a huge sign it says pump can patch if they're going to have a I don't know a Revival or whatever uh they'll have a big sign it's not a permanent sign it's a banner and they take it off and they take it on so I think that we already have all of these ordinances in place to uh to do the job so having said that do we want to take it to a vote does does that mean we're going to still spend time to no no you're just saying we're done no no I I think that like the attorney um just mentioned that um and I'm not suggesting any ordinance or laws but but anything that we can suggest um to um you know resolve you know issues like like I I think I whether the town buys signs and gives them to you and they put you put them out I I don't know I just I feel like maybe we could come up with some ideas to to suggest back rather than be just like no we're done we're not going to do anything and then and then they you know then then we're back to square one and then there's going to be people that are going to want to push ordinance so I think it's worthwhile to of course and then we're right back to the best manager practices we're right back to that and that's where we were to begin with don't forget that's fine but but at least we have something and we've been talking about this since we started this okay and and and Francine wants it you know Ruth maybe not so much but I think she could work with it listen I think bmps are great I no I know that there's just I think they're great it's just a matter of you know if you adopt bmps on AGR tourism um operators okay it's it's if it's a regulatory thing and we can't do that well real quick one of the reasons why wanted to invite um Miss Harris to join us is it's my understanding that the State Association may be interested in looking at doing bmps it's my appreciation that we might have started a conversation that other people are having but that there isn't you know a set of bmps to look to so you know there's nothing wrong with having bmps we do do a lot of our livestock regulation based on those bmps I'm not saying that we write code enforcement on it I mean we generally try to keep people you know within the standards you know set forth by the state's best management practices so I wanted to make sure that we had the conversation of the best way to come up with the best management practices even if we can't build regulations around them so I don't know Miss Harris if you want to talk about that at all um excuse me yes thank you for inviting me I'm actually Sarah Harris I can't change oh I'm so sorry it's okay my name I can't figure out how to change it so I apologize oh no it's my bad my bad um well my name's wrong um but it does say Alice on the say Alice whenever I get invites through the Gmail account it puts my mom's name up and I haven't figured out okay okay well hi Sarah thank you for coming absolutely so we have been approached um regarding bmps and we are currently working on more of a document of how to be a good neighbor and a lot of the suggestions that I've heard are in there do you have a way to handle traffic do you have where you going to park people noise um any impacts that are greater than any of your normal Farm operation because Farms we have the right to farm and any impacts that two neighbors offsite that might be greater than what your farm normally produces so we've focused on light noise traffic and parking bmps require Regulatory and honestly when we started getting to the nuts and bolts of putting bmps together together our operators do so many different things there isn't what what's good for someone who has 30 Acres 40 acres and can easily handle traffic easily handle the parking is going to be different than someone who has four or five acres who's just doing blueberries and may only have a couple cars at a time so that's that's how the association's approaching it right now so um I think that Simon actually passed something out here from University of Florida um and I have referenced a number of things from University of Florida and even as far back as 2016 um the whole basis of it is being a good neighbor so I do think that if there's some way we can have um you know some type of um linkage to our existing ordinances on being a good neighbor like for instance we have parking ordinances already um we have parking and loading we have that already um we have some um bits and pieces of traffic but we don't really have the kind of traffic enforcement that we need I do think that so for events but not for Farms for events we do have size so you bring up a good point you know a smaller Farm can't handle the same event a larger Farm can so the question I would ask is um do we hold off until you get your bmps or do we try to track with you and is there any benefit of our group perhaps participating in any conversation with you that's a good question um I can certainly bring it to our board um I know Darren's a member of our association as well um yes has a big questions come up about Food Truck Farm totable um farmers markets by folks that aren't actually growing anything on their Farm um you know these are all things that everyone loves but the question is you know what do we need to do to regulate the offsite impacts and from my point of view like I said before I want to be able to say no they filled out the exemption they're good no they told us what they're doing they're good I just want to be able to say that I don't want to actually do any kind of enforcement I want to say no they're good so that's that's kind of the issue right as Stephen has pointed out um you already have ways to to um address off-site impacts uh now some counties don't have ordinances they don't have sound ordinances so you know everyone's different but you you already have several in place it sounds like so that's how you handle it may I have U and and you guys are not a member of Association so when you become a member of Association and you you buy your signs that led uh the public general public no including one for liability uh and i' seriously recommend that you join the association it's not a lot of money and uh but that in itself should be once you post that on your property and you're a member of the association that in itself should be a direct uh sign that you are an AGR tourism operator so whoever goes by and sees that sign if they I mean if they're going to complain they're going to complain but there's already systems in place to identify agrotourism operators you have it I have it everybody that I know has it so I think that to go and do something else is is redundancy yeah instead of best management practices is I mean I I was kind of referring to a um you know uh I don't know if it's Rules of Engagement or but you know like what what the town you know steps the town can take you know it was an officer it was an hours of the event it's what the signage that you just suggested you know in the event there is an issue you know steps that can be taken um I don't really want to I mean I don't want to I'm afraid like some of the bmps might turn into you know regulation or whatever quickly and that's not turn into Rules of Engagement yeah suggestion yeah it is it's suggestions but I'm saying that I don't know what it turns into yeah so I'm I'm not really suggesting that I I was suggesting uh ways to resolve you know an issue that arise you know happens and and that's why I was saying you know the town what does the town do you know and how do we resolve it and that's what I'm suggesting proposing and you just made another suggestion you know as you know the extra signage I know the list is short but I mean we're just now talking about this if we could come up maybe focus on that you know that that puts I think I think that and and and I'm very happy that you're here otherwise we wouldn't have a quorum but part of this committee should be compos of people that are familiar with agrotourism because then they'll throw things that you're not familiar with and it's unfair to you and and and to everybody that's is going to get into that business uh so I think that once you look this gentleman is it's the Bible for the state that rules adism it doesn't get any higher than him she is the Bible for our association which is people like us and the state protects us against and that's why these rules were set to protect us from different government local governments to try to regulate our businesses of AGR tourism so this is why I said and I propose that you know we we're doing here nothing there's already laws in place there's already plenty even the town I I get it I'm smaller better I get that but I also understand that there's and I don't know know how many people have complained I mean do you have a number of how many residents have complained about agrotourism is it only I hate to point you out but is it only no no the other lady who came in came in because there had been complaints about noise but it's only one particular Farm that's received complaint oh no no no it's a different it's a different two that have been with me two with me which don't think is a huge amount but I also I have four young children and I know squeaky wheel gets the oil and I know you just want to like stop it I get it um so I understand where we're but I also understand where you're coming from because you're stuck in the middle so I think what I think what you're trying to say is that maybe if we come up with something it doesn't seem like there's animosity like we're not trying to be difficult but we're also giving you something to her yeah we don't want to be back here I mean he can speak to it I heard I've heard him comment that this is not the first time he's so if we do nothing which I I agree I don't want any more regulation or any I don't want an ordinance but I'm just suggesting um you know coming up with something that prevents us from being back here again it's they're members of the AG tourism Association of Florida they that's exactly what I just said there's a protocol already in place I'm okay with that that's a great idea and you have to have that sign it we are still pretected to do what we are legally allowed to do in the state of Florida and no additional ordinances regulations anything need to happen at this level because we will follow I knew a woman was going to resolve this amen I'm actually okay with that I mean the issue for us becomes all yeah right go ahead do we have any public comments gotta get Ruth on that do we have any public comments Mr wice Mayor has a public sorry you don't have a microphone I have a here all right Robert Shore said that every time e Road also a member of the Agri tourism Association in the Florida Farm Bureau and all that fun stuff but um there is nobody trying to regulate what people do on their property that is your right in agur tourism you have zero right to impact your neighbor period you have no right to spill your noise light smoke dust cars on to your neighbors's property and affect them right to farm if your farming operation's been operation for a year and it's a noisy operation a Dusty operation you get that right by the state to spill over on to your neighbors or nothing they could nothing they can do that's right to farm Agra tourism you have protection within your bonafied agricultural property you don't have the right to affect your neighbors period substantial there's an ordinance there's an ordinance for sound right if that's not a good level talk about it and determine a good level but in the end we have ordinances and those ordinances apply to you as Agri tourism to me as somebody has a party at my house it's the same ordinance that applies to everybody it's not picking on AGR tourism this ordinance was recognizing AGR tourism as a use in our community and coming out of the box it had a lot of stuff that shouldn't have been there and thank you everybody for getting together and recognizing that because I didn't recognize it at first you know the cost impact of the Agri tourism people and that's not the goal you know the goal was recognize it acknowledge it and at the same time reference the ordinances that everybody has to follow light sound you know offsite impacts you know traffic um do we have the ability to send the sheriff because you're you're stacked up in the road and and write tickets I don't even know if we have that ability or not but I think that was the the goal was look at the ordinance and say is this reasonable is the sound level reasonable there and said hey I'm about 50 DB with my neighbor the chainsaw well maybe that's not a reasonable level 50 I my understanding is and correct if I'm wrong but I think a lot of these ordinances were spill over yes from the county previous ordinances when became of town so maybe they're not realistic in a rural environment with tractors and chainsaws and that kind of stuff so they're not if it's possible you know for the committee to look at those and say these are too low for our for our everyday thing the council task you as AGR tourism operators to recognize your Agri tourism operation and how does it affect all off site and help us understand that my events create more than 55 DB every event does but it's a it's a wedding it's a party and you know we think 70 is more realistic you know because in the end this isn't an Agri tourism rule for light and sound this is a rule for everybody and if the the level right now that's on there is not reasonable it's way too low then that's something that we need to address but you know if you want a Sunset and say hey screw you guys we're just going to do whatever we're allowed to do on our property and we're not going to give you any feedback on what we think are reasonable numbers to quantify offsite impacts then that's your choice but those ordinances for sound and noise that are there right now way they're written today they apply to you as AG tourism me as a homeowner they apply to everybody and there's code enforcement that's how enforces ordinances it's across the board the ultimately the magistrate is the mediator that you're talking about Mr Holman you know is there somebody that says hey is this fair this not fair but you know it it should never get to that level you know the goal is that we do have the ordinances and that people understand when they set up their events their venues whatever they're going to do that they understand the ordinance if the ordance is not reasonable then Now's the Time to pick it apart and try to make it more reasonable for what you foresee the future on your venues and your friends venues because there's a lot coming to our town as we recognize that there's a lot of Agri tourism coming to our town it's going to come hard and fast and we're not here to stop it we're just here to recognize it and allow to coexist peacefully with the neighbors we've got the neighbors are going to have to understand what the limit is if the limit ends up being 70 DB and that neighbor feels that's too loud for them too bad that's the ordinance so oh yeah you've always got that option but you know this isn't about controlling what you do in your property lines this is about how does this affect the neighbors and trying to if if it can't be Quantified it can't be Quantified I mean that it is what it is but there are things that are quantifiable and those are ordinances and they are what they are at this point if you don't want to change them then that's what it is but the whole aggr tourism ordinance the the big picture is recognizing it embracing it welcoming it letting people read about it letting them understand it and trying to quantify and and those ordinances like I say they apply to everybody not just Agri tourism if there's an ordinance reference in the AGR tourism it's the same reference in the event policy it's the same reference in anything else that may be generating something that that ordinance would apply to so I I just want to you know say this is outside your property that we're talking about it's not inside your property you have all the rights that the state's giving you inside your property enjoy them embrace them take advantage of them but be cognizant of your neighbors and and there's got to be a process for the town it can't be oh my neighbor likes me so I can do 150 dcib you know and all of a sudden the neighbor change somebody else moves in and you know hey I've been doing suggesting that we Define these General ordinance for everyone well that was that was what the task was like Simon said to quantify how we affect outside of our property you gotta use the mic my three minutes is up think your batteries are dead I see that microphone can we have the dead mic so we can fix it thank you so much Simon before you go I just want to point out something that the vice mayor said because this is the kind of stuff that I think the homans are talking about um if I go look at special events which we talked about last time not trying to say that agrotourism should be subject to special events but special events has its own special sign code okay our sign code for the res agor agricultural residential is limited to six square feet sign so that's a 2x3 sign which means it's like a snipe sign if we were actually trying to put out a sign that people would be able to read it would have to be larger than that that's why the special event signs are 24 square feet in sign area that's bigger than what's in commercial and it's bigger than what's in agricultural residential and so if AGR tourism wants to sign where am I looking am I going to look in you look in the same place where the church looked and they has a signage for a banner and we're not talking about a special event now let me answer Mr uh but but that's not the right code so it means we need to change the code then you take it to the ulc and you put the same code for everybody we don't have the authority here we were not assigned here to make changes in the code we were only requested to quantify substantial no no sir we already have in the code what to do in the case of traffic violations what to do in the case of parking what to do in the case of noise if we are going to change all of that you're going to change it for everybody Equity just like just like Mr sh said no no not everybody not necessarily the task was to change the code ordinances are the feeders of the code so if it is better for AGR tourism and I'm GNA just carry off what you said Miss hullman if you don't mind if it's a better idea to have a 24 um square foot sign that you know is like the kind they bring in and put on wheels and it's got an electronic sign on it that's not in our code anywhere if that's something that works for agrotourism then we need to put that in our code I'm not saying it does I'm trying to give an example of if you want to make suggestions Mr Holman to the Council of what should be changed I already heard you say maybe we need to look at signage right signage but not not as an ordinance requiring not as a requirement it's it's an allowing you it's not a requirement I I was suggesting as a tool that town has y to implement in the case of a situation correct so if you wanted a larger sign because you know people can't look at a 2 by3 and see what your event is because you're going to want to have date time location some reason for people to go if you thought you needed a larger sign for you know so it would be written as it would be a sign versus you shall you correct means say you might have the ability to have more than somebody else you know already have that correct and and you have it like the churches then all the churches are in violation I'm sure you've seen the church on eoad and they have a huge sign it's like 4 foot by 4 foot you know Easter is coming you know whatever they might be and and and they do fall perhaps under special events agrotourism doesn't fall under special events if I'm going to have to come up with a sign every time I have a wedding then it's going to cost me money so it's it's not well but okay so you either choose one or the other special events or agrotourism it's like agricultural code code or regular building code so and correct me if I'm wrong uh Mr Hall they already have the ordinances in place for all the signage the only thing i' CAU about signage is under 60450 fora statutes Farm signs are exempt from local government regulation so um if you wanted to if they want to suggest or require that that could something you had to work work through that issue I think that you're speaking about onsite signage as opposed to offsite signage and what I'm saying is if um an aggr tourism operation wanted to be able to have a sign at the foot of every one of our lettered roads off Southern Boulevard um and I know that those Crossroads might not mean anything to you those would be off-site signs and so you know I mean I don't care how so you're talking advertising sence yeah you know I mean so are are you gonna are you going to require them or just offer them as a that they could offer them offer not require I think that was the statement right correct correct oh well that would be your decision as well for duration because right now the duration for and again I'm only telling you from special events I'm not trying to apply I have to keep saying it because I don't want anybody to try to think I'm trying to apply that but right now there's a 14-day prior to the event time frame for that sign and then you need to take it down within three days after the event now you know um there's a lot of um a lot of stuff we have to do relative to our sign code so if you wanted something um preferential you could ask Council to consider it as the sign code is being Rewritten I mean using that as a tool to navigate is great I think anything for navigation is good when it comes to these events it it and then if you have the opportunity to use it and that's fine but if it's not required that satisfies Simon he just doesn't want the required have to do it and same with Marty sure yeah ad right you have the 14 well if we went by that it would be 14 days before and three days after and if you but if you had it weekly though then it would just be out there in eternity until you're over I don't know because I don't want to freelance on rules I got to check with the the attorney here on how we do it because there's a lot of special rules on signs I was just throwing out an offer right right so just just realize um you know keep in the back of your mind like you're you're here to make the recommendation to the Town Council and then you know by the time in in between the time that you know you make your recommendation to the Town Council and the Town Council Ponders a little bit I mean we're all going to have a chance to kind of think think it through to determine whether or not that's that's workable under under current ordinances under current state law so really like this is a you know I look at this as like kind of a brainstorming opportunity and then far as signage goes you know just think it through I just I was thinking that the signage is more for the benefit of the the neighbors and the people going through rather than your advertisement because that puts it into a different category yeah yeah that's that was to resolve it but I think we automatically thought go to have a big sign out corner of well it's a double purpose it's a double purpose hours to let them know at a time then it's your sign plus my sign plus his sign is is not it's not feing you see what I mean well that's why we would have to be able to say okay you can have one or you can have two you know or or whatever it is I believe that there's already laws in place in the town and ordinances to cover everything else without touching the AGR tourism or piercing that AGR tourism Veil for the people to come I'm I'm I'm only speaking for Joe Blow that tomorrow wants to grow oregano and put it in olive oil because he thinks he has the best Oregan and olive oil in the world for him to have a wide openen road to success no you know it's I think that we are here spending the Town's money unnecessarily if somebody has like I said earlier 100 cars or 20 cars or whatever and your neighbor is complaining then let Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office resolve the issue and let those two people resolve the issue and apparently we're not the only ones that article that I passed out is from 2016 and this have been happening already for a long time so we're not Reinventing the wheel we're not going to patch so something that is human nature so instead of wasting the taxpayers money and the states in this case and you know my friend that probably wants to go home and have dinner you know I think we're here wasting time we couldn't quantify substantial you and I are very familiar with this laws Unfortunately they were not I highly recommend you look into them it's going to help your business going to open a lot of doors and you know having said that you know we can make a motion to finish this right here because come for the same thing over and remember you have a one of our Town Council right here he's made the comment you know you guys can't do whatever you want on your but somebody you know I'm saying so this is gonna This is Gonna Come Back it's it's how can it come back when it's not our position any law here because they they can pass this ordinance that mean they really close so so this is going to the state is going to override that the state overrides that's why it's unfair for you guys to sit here on a committee that you don't know how it works it's really unfair and I we're aware of this I mean you keep saying that we're we're aware of that but but if they're going to pass this they can't state supersedes that state laws already exist to protect us and they have the right to monitor offsite impact offside impact that's it they can't come into your property and tell you you cannot have a 100 cars so once we're clear of that we're wasting time here wasting my time taxpayers money and and really I think this is back to what I suggested where in the in the whatever rules they want to set up for um under tourism the state code blah blah blah blah blah and they law of seats right right right just like state law and hav't listed so if somebody calls and says hey the homans have this well you know by state law they're allowed to do that's the way they do it now and and what we also said was you know the certificate we're members of such and such once you become a member yes once you become a member of the you can buy your signs which one of them is needed for liability purposes to protect you and you have your Agri tourism signs and and you that's precisely why why they're signed and stay in touch with it because now whatever little laws in certain not that is in this town whatever little laws are applying uh in other counties I believe it's Bill 833 or I forget Steve help me out here what's that bill come right now on the on the Senate 833 or about the AGR tourism bill yeah I'm not sure that's it's going anywhere this year it's it's running out of time to move it's uh I have it here I believe it was 833 and and uh it's it's something like that and can I can I just step in here just say this so well the town and their staff put a lot effort into put this together and and to work with this and I would hate to see that I would just let me just say this I think there were some good suggestions tonight about the town has some ordinances on in place that may be appable to the offset offsite um impacts if this group looking at those and it doesn't have to be tonight or but you can ask the staff and I'm sure they would to pull those together if you guys look at those and say hey we want you to apply these other uh existing ordinances that but we think some of these thresholds are out of step and out of date and that you should that may be a good use of this group's uh time to give feedback uh to the staff so that the the town doesn't just move forward with say okay we'll just we'll keep everything in place because what I'm hearing you about a few minutes ago I heard the conversation that it was at 50 and everybody in the room seem to say 5050 may be too low maybe we need to have a re relook at that so I don't know what the right number is but if you if you give this the staff some Direction like that or a recommendation then the council can go forward with that but at least you're given had an opportunity to give some input to them before they just move forward with whatever and and the state does not have the town does not have the ability to send us and I don't have the ability to to tell them no you can't adopt it that way you know we can write letters and we can say hey this is what our opinion this is what I think but if they did town did adopt something that you guys didn't like it may result in having to have a lawsuit to to make sure they oversteep so giving an opportunity to give feedback may not be a bad thing to do especially if it sounds like the staff is is and the attorneys are kind of where you want them to be but if they if you want to look at the specifics of what those ordinances are and give your feedback on whether that you think those existing ordinances are an a good spot or not or or appable or or should be increased or changed or decreased or whatever they are it may be a good idea to do that thank you Steve unfortunately this town has committees that deal with those ordinances and they go broader they then they'll do it commercial residential Agricultural and they'll do it on a on a on a broad uh on a broad base what I'm saying is we don't have the authority as a citizen I can tell you that I don't have the authority a land owner uh to to uh to do that that's that's the point I'm trying bank and they already have in place all now do they want to go ahead the council we and we're only a committee let's not forget this and this is not my first committee we can can talk here until we're blue in the face and when it goes before Council they can go nah we're going to do this so having said that and and and having had the experience that that I've had with this to we have already this AGR tourism thing somebody came up with the idea of let's regulate AGR tourism and as they got into that bucket they realize that the bucket is not a bucket it's a well so they got in deeper than what you know what they could have so I think that the best thing to do and I can put a motion on the table and we vote on the motion to just finish this committee right here the existing laws of the Town apply for for uh offside impact and our our LW stay the same they we don't get affected nobody here is going to go and have a a crack out of tomatoes or or you know barbecue uh people you know stuff yeah but the problem with that is is that the the levels that they have currently are so low so then then you're going to be here every other week like I've been fighting it over I've been doing this 10 years Here sign but this isn't something new for me well you're just you're new into the Agri tourism game I've been doing this a long time okay and I've been here fighting this town for a decade okay a decade a decade I've been doing this with a whole different group of people okay and that's what's Marty saying Simon in 10 years these folks won't be here rancine most likely won't be here Ruth will probably gone because she's tired of this nonsense and then Robert back here who knows where he'll be Felixia will still be here she'll be she'll say hey marieo Margie might be here because she was here 10 10 years ago but I you know yeah Mar she was here 10 years ago she was yeah I don't think she was on the council board she was on probably on a side person but whatever I I I don't want to have to come back that's what I'm trying to get to a point to where the towns side of something you are Marty me whoever else is doing this and that the neighbors can get mitigated through the town otherwise I'm telling you you're going to be here a decade from now when your knee deep in it and you have somebody that you sold your side Lot to that starts bitching and whining about what you're doing and then you're going to be here doing this again with a whole different group of folks I guarantee it and that's what you know Mr Hall's talking about is try to you know come to some sort of you know agreement or something above and beyond what they have in place now because what they have right now you're going to be out of code man well they're not saying that we're gonna authorize no what's substantial right I know fine can I just jump in on that like so talking about quantifying impacts um you know offsite or whatever um it doesn't always have to be numerical you could you know you guys are are smart people you know what's going on out there it could be narrative you could come up with like just say traffic for example what kind of traffic um you know that's that's that's being uh brought to lock Hatchy Groves by an event is is too much for the Neighbors well you don't like 80 cars five cars 10 cars who knows but what could it be can you describe it and that's okay too okay but here comes the other problem I have 20 acres my neighbors are mostly commercial now well it is what it is but here is uh Joe with his oregano farm that has got five acres that same measurement cannot apply to him or to me a narra precisely the point a narrative could a narrative could because you know you guys well think about it so let's say let's say um you go to a um a farm to table dinner you know and and it's I don't mean to you know okay all right like and the traffic you know it's become so popular the traffic traffic is backing everything up so the people that actually live on that street can't even get home at night all right or they can't get out at least for maybe three hours right so that's that's something that you can describe so whether it's a two acre property or a 200 acre property it doesn't matter because it's the same thing it all depends on okay what is you know how how many cars does it take to impact the neighbors you know maybe it's an hourly thing well let me give you an example okay a narrative example what we're really all concerned about here is life health safety and guess what there is narrative from fire rescue or emergency response Vehicles so to me the offsite impact and I'm just throwing this out here the offsite impact that we would be super concerned about would be that emergency vehicles couldn't get through and now I'll give you the third example last winter there was a big giant Shand dig off North Road near yours but not yours and we could not get emergency vehicles even to the location and I know a witness that was there he could not they could not get to the location for an hour no cars could move on North Road for an hour so it is possible to define the offsite impact with a narrative that's about health safety welfare you know the queuing can't be so much emergency vehicles can't get through that's enough I mean I don't know I'm not an attorney but you know something like that isn't that that's that's none of that as specific to it's not right so why why are we um I'm I'm with you I'm still with you but no we're all together we talked about it with Stephen and what we came up with is we probably needed to do something townwide that said that there couldn't be queuing you know anywhere that precluded you know that type of traffic but then maybe maybe our suggestion is well whatever we suggest that the study be done or or to you know to determine what amount for any event you know that's I mean that's so generic but it's like we're suggesting that um you know the town perform the exercise and the analysis to determine um you know what quantity you know or you guys have to Define it like causes that that um you know safety vehicle not not to be able to access do we still have PNC board and ulc not ulc that's part of PNC finding on Shing board so that's a job for them how many people in that committee five five people in that committee that are Professionals in that area I think and I don't want to Kick the Can that's not I I'm a agreeing that the sound levels are low I'm agreeing that you know that there needs something to be done and the safety is out most important I agree with all of that now if you need to know how to grow tomatoes or or or grow uh radishes or raise sheep we can we can tell you we can tell you but I can't tell you how many decibels it takes to I don't even know if I said it right uh uh to to be non-aggressive or so we don't have this what I'm trying to say and and it's not fair for us to make a decision for the rest of the citizens and land owners of this town but by us suggesting what the action is is still a methodology of us you know rebuttal to them giving us this this uh ordinance that put all the burden on us it was like you know we go do the study and we go so maybe our reply back is that you know the study needs to be done and it needs to be applied to everybody I mean because honestly again I mentioned the go-kart place over here I can go stand on on the road and and measure it you know it's not even very expensive you know to get a a meter to uh measure that and I'm I'm sure that would be think to I can hear it loud and clear you know I mean sometimes I love to be on my farm in the daytime on the weekend on a Saturday and you know I mean and so another canle of worms so Mr Holan so with that with that um example I mean what about that um annoys you if if it was if it was a five minute thing on a Saturday afternoon at 2 would it be a big deal or the fact that it's for four or five hours on a yeah I I me those are kind of things honestly I I struggle with it because I think to myself that's a place where kids get to go and you know have fun and I'm like so I I don't know I I don't even know if I would would ever complain you know about it because and like I mentioned before nebor I smell horse manure you know but I love horse people I'm not even a horse person but I love seeing horses go down the road you know and you know and people just you know riding around I think that's cool man you know so it's I I don't I don't know maybe maybe you know that's just a mentality and tolerance but um yeah I I don't that that that that needs to be a study well it's it's and it's not about listen what what you guys decide if anything even if it's to disband it doesn't matter it it it's it's just a recommendation yeah be because I think the council the council um thought that you know the industry the local industry folks ought to give their thoughts and two cents on what you know H how to um maybe tweak this this ordinance um or whatever it may be I mean it was just looking at industry guys industry people bucket in the well I don't get a but you know but you I mean that's all it was it wasn't like whatever these guys whatever everyone decide is going to be the the law of the land it's fine but there's so many entities within the town that are breaking all these rules too and that's what I've been saying since day one Francine that everybody's Ruth everybody's breaking the rules it's townwide for every rule you guys have is being broken on a daily basis okay but it was like just picking out us because somebody didn't like us and that was it so B but that's I kept saying to Francine but everybody else is breaking every rule the town has so I I don't get it and everybody was like chasing after us that you know the everybody's creating all these ordinances against us and it wasn't saying hey we're going to create it for the entire town and we're going after AG tourism that was it and that's why I got offended but maybe that's what we come back is that you know for each each category that you know we come up with a specific recommendation to what the town needs to go do to go update the these regulations for everyone you know because they should be loosened aggressively because no one's abiden by them to begin with no one is Ruth no one's abiding by the rules here do you live here okay exactly if you came here and stayed here I'm telling you people are burning fires when they shouldn't be people are airboating their boat fixing in their yard when they should you know it's it's on and on and on it's the gun shoots it's it's the whole town is based off of that though when I came here and 99 it was you don't talk about your neighbor you don't squeal on your neighbor and you love it you leave it alone and that's what I was all about it and that's what this town was built on and you know I don't know if Robert Shore knows that but that's what it's built on and that's what it's always been and then you know then we have the new influx of the new folks because the land values have gone up I've talked about this the gentrification of the roal lifestyle and all these new folks want to change it and that's what I was against because it's the only place in the County that has this it's a special spot it should be respected and the F and that's why I was trying to quantify you know what's the zoning where you're living and you have to know where you're moving to and I don't think this town should be changed because the new folks come in here because once it's gone it's never coming back and as you make it more restrictive and this changes and changes and changes it's going to be gone and that's what's going to happen and it shouldn't though and that's my point my butt my butt is um that I worry that the appearance of if we just say we're disbanding we don't need to change I'm not saying no no I'm down with doing the communication and getting to a point that we don't have to come back with what's Marty saying because I'm all about that because I've been doing this and that's what I told Francine I was like I'm all about let's get through this and let's get to a point where we don't have to come back to this in a decade and because I I just don't want think it's a waste of likeon saying it's a waste of time money and everything I I I what my B was be that I appreciate the opportunity for us to be here because I don't want other people making the VES for so I hear where you're coming from 100% but I also don't want other people that haven't been here that don't know the history that don't know anything about farming I we purchased the farm in 2013 but I've been going to our farm since 1974 because my parents bought it in the late 60 and then we purchased from them so I remember when there it was one lane that way one lane this way on Southern Boulevard there were no night no lights and I would drive when we would drive home at night I was scared because the pine trees look like monster Shadows on the road you know and just I don't want to where's your farm is your farm on a road you have you own that avocado tree that's on the road that everybody likes to I know where you are probably well I used to own I used to own a farm three lots from that so what I'm saying is you you can sit here and think that you're going to make a difference the fact of the matter is that when it leaves this table let's say that we go through whatever 10 meetings they want us to have 10 meetings the attorney's coming 10 meetings with the time that you could be spending with your kid and he can have his food at home then it goes to the council whatever Council might be in March after March after the election and they can say We'll table it this is this is we're not you know we're not doing anything on it so the only thing that stays true here is the fact that the state and the association once you belong to the agrotourism if you qualify as an AGR which I think you do it's the only protection we have the rest of it comes and goes your bill Roth your state representative those are the people that are going to make a difference for us not somebody on the ulc that is going to say oh well you know I think that his sheep are buying you know are buying too hard or whatever or I think his barbecue is smelling too much you know so this is the part that I want you to guys to realize I don't have the time to come and waste I'm 69 years old and I've seen this back and forth for years just like you for the same reason that you here today because you shouldn't have been back here they should have messed with you all this time but somebody somewhere decided to step into that bucket thinking that it was a bucket and it's a well you can't prevent it the real question Simon then don't participate like you know you don't you don't have to be here and and then and you're right you're right that this supersedes whatever this this local law but then let us let us like make proposes so that at least it's on record you know and I agree maybe it's feudal but we have the opportunity to do this and if you don't want to waste your time I get it and I feel like it's a waste of my time to some degree but you know okay so it's either we've vote yeah I'm or we don't vote I don't I and you know there's people that aren't here Joseph and i' I'd rather vote you know with them here personally so that would be my suggestion I mean I don't even know where they stand you know maybe they're with you or whatever but I think we should wait for them this is not a me or you situation get it understand it just understand it that's why I asked your wife to read the law from the state this gentleman Mr Hall here is too he's telling us to take this opportunity you know so and and this is the dude you just said was King so so let's let I mean this you know maybe maybe we should and again I mean like my first thing is I'm I'm suggesting that they go and do the study whatever or maybe it's not a study or they go do the work to Define it for everybody that way we're on record for saying everybody it's for everybody we're not doing an or or we're we're suggesting we we don't do an ordinance to put the burden on us okay so we can vote on that but what I'm trying once we vote on that you know we go a step ahead no no but we got to come up with it I mean that's very vague I mean we got to come up with what our recommendations are no no no no no no no I'm saying that they go do they go determine it but that's what our suggestion back to them is is that they go determine what that right amount is you know go over here the town needs to go over here and stand outside and determine like measure what's going on because obviously it's okay now right well I mean you know but but then why are we being you know why is this ordinance that's I don't even understand where it came from just FYI we don't advertise everybody's code enforcement situation that properties in Code Enforcement um now so that that wouldn't be an example of where to no it's a good example it's a fantastic example because um our noise ordinance was identified a while back as needing to have an update you're recommending an update it means that one of the recommendations to the council is to prioritize the noise ordinance you know yeah I think I heard you all say that you want us to go back and narratively Define traffic impact I heard that as a recommendation no they are not and this is the conversation that we had with Mr Hall different roads have different capacities and they're in different conditions of deterioration or repair some roads are newly repaired some are a hundred years old so yeah the road condition and um emergency you know transport access I mean these are things we can narratively describe and that's what you're asking us to do and I think that we can do that we were also asked to reference to other sections of the code and I want to just remind you section 65-30 is the and it's in the bigger package from the first meeting is what was added in to our existing code and every one of those paragraphs generally references to either aate law or another section of our code but it doesn't Define in any narrative what applies and what doesn't apply best to AGR tourism I throughout the sign code we don't have anything in here about the sign code but likewise our sign code doesn't allow in the AR District big signs unless you have a special event so you want the same kind of sign coding or flexibility with sign code that a special event has those are the kind of recommendations that I think um you know Ruth is suggesting and I think I don't want to put words in anybody on the screen's mouth but you know now would be the time to ask for something you want and I'm only using stuff we talked about it doesn't mean added in I also like the idea of a voluntary program where you take the exemption to the BTR that you know you have a piece of paper here that you know no matter what nobody can really complain about you because you're agrotourism you know just like nobody can complain about Bonafide act taking down trees as long as you know I know about it I defend you and when I say I I mean the town as a whole oh we get calls all the time and not about let's say agrotourism but about Bonafide egg either building or having activity on their property or taking trees down or trucks and vehicles that are not normally allowed and we say Well they're Bonafide ad we have to go research it if we don't have something on file and then we go back and we say Bonafide egg when Simon came in and he said what's the best way for me to do my Bonafide egg I said you fill out this non-residential Farm building form that non-residential Farm building form is under 604 or the right to farm and you don't have to fill it out you just tell me or whoever you talk to here that you're operating under 604 and you sign that document and whether you permit that building or not we've got something in our file that we know nobody can complain or send us on a wild goose chase for a code enforcement because you're exempt so it saves taxpayers money that's only reason why we ask for that but I'm with I'm with Mr Hall I don't want to do anything that smells like regulation I want to offer the exemptions that already exist so that's I think um you know I think we like the idea of making recommendations on what needs to change or what you would want considered relative to making AGR tourism work better in the town and while I see your point Simon please Now's the Time and we can do it I'm I'm G to make a motion and when I make a motion and the way you do is you make motions and then uh if if it's voted yes then he goes back to to town Town Council or I'll make a motion to take to councel the for ask Council for guidance and for change in the sound uh traffic uh and what's the other one it was it was smell but smell doesn't no signage never been lighting there's lighting you had said at the last meeting lighting ligh so guidance on that correction and and uh to take a second look on those uh items and then come back to us with a recommendation isn't that what you want uh I wanted to uh for them to tell us yeah yeah but I would like to think about it a little more and maybe come up with some specifics and more than just that I I don't know yet I mean we're just getting warmed up here just1 there is one for lighting there is I think it's 10 o'clock at night well those are four orces that exist in so if those are not enough and you agree they're not enough and you agree they're not enough then have the council because the council is the ultimate uh come back to us with a suggestion the sign code is section 90 but the sign the signage he just said it with us the signage we're accept but that's on your property on the property you're talking about on the yeah so how you going to resolve the issue where he wants he wants to put in the corner of B Road his sign I want to put I'm not really worried about that that's mechanics I think the idea is to make the recommendation and when we get the recommendation we can figure out the mechanics if it's something important to you and so I just wanted to throw out some other sections of the code that you might want to look at so 90 is signs and 105 is the site distance which is site triangle so you don't want to block the site triangle with any you know signs that are offsite let me ask you a question it's a corner it's the corner it's essentially the the distance around the corners oh okay the person that owns that corner right exactly the person who owns the corner if you're in the right away or an easement you can't block the site triangle so yeah right additionally if you are going to be offsite you're going to need somebody else's approval I mean there's a couple of little things like that um on the parking it's article 95 I'm I just wanted you know like you're saying look at these other things um and we do have some other we have some items relative to roads and traffic and unfortunately I don't have them sitting right here um in my hands but um Francine can you compile those and email them to us yeah we sure can the other thing is is if you wanted any kind of exemptions in time um 170 is for um special exceptions isn't that midnight on Friday and Saturday night and then 10 10 p.m. on week nights correct correct 10 p.m. yeah but still I mean they get they get the exception so so should we yeah if you want an exception that's should get that same ex right that's okay you know we should get the same of course I mean if they're getting till midnight then we should get to midnight too well that's what Friday Saturday night 10 p.m. on week nights is what it says that's one of the things that Mr Hall said when we were talking about if we and he said it earlier tonight if we already have something that covers the these same type of things and you want the same as they have you should have it so yeah okay you I agree with that so look at so then look at section 80 that it doesn't fears are uh our AG tourism Veil right I mean it's either gonna be that or less look at section then that's why I want the same I think that's where all after is having the same it's the same for everybody yeah we'll make you a list um I think we did get some pretty good coverage we did reference the um sections of our code in our first pass of the AGR tourism admittedly not every code that pertains is referenced and I think the the what was it 55 at the at the line that's that's that's not that's way off oh and that's that's got to go way off yeah exactly but that need to go way up because it's it well Ruth it's way up if you live out here it's not it's not 55 I hear it all day like he's saying he hears it all day I'm not sure you certainly do because you're on the main road but it's it's all day from all kinds of activity that I hear that too and that's going over to the acreage I hear that every morning about 6:00 AM 6:30 it's the dog barking from the acreage to my lot and I'm a 40 acre away from that never because I don't care because it's the love it and leave it alone that's how it should be like how Marty is okay so um I know that you wanted to go as long as we needed to go we're at a little after 8 o'clock um Wednesday night seemed to be the night that was working how soon did you want to meet to finish the conversation well was it two weeks ago yeah so two weeks is good if everybody's okay with that it is two weeks good for you all okay maybe Joseph would be back and we can have five people here hopefully okay yeah and adjourn right is there anything else if you wish to I don't know if you voted on Simon's motion so can you just say it one more time are you crazy then I'm just going to say no motion is the motion is for the town uh for the Town Council because it's the authority to to uh give us guidance on the levels of noise traffic that's well that's a francen kind of just went through didn't she with these items on the on the code book already okay oh how much okay that's fine if they want to give us okay I'll agree to that just ask for GU add something in there I mean I I would think that you this committee is supposed to you know give that recommendation or give the guidance to the Town Council sure that's what I keep say on well but she doesn't care about that she just wants us to give the guidance well like because it's it's you know you you live here you work here like what is it about noise that where is that level from from your standpoint not a number you don't have to give a number but what what should it be is it a is it a time span is it you know 10 o'clock at night whatever whatever it is see I have a problem with a lot of things because you guys meaning the attorneys and the you know you give here a special event sheet that in one line item says uh you know the signage but on the other line item it says that you cannot have any cars except 100 feet inside that so I cannot use that as a rule when I'm talking about you know it the measurement has to be equal that's why I'm happy with the AGR tourism and I'm trying and I you heard me say this many times I don't want to put ourselves in a position where our right are peers by a local government I think we're all we all agree on that and and so if you agree on that then you cannot use any of this stuff unless they tell you we're going to raise the the noise label level we're going to raise the the life time we G but they can do that they have the authority to do it we don't they can vote on it the council can vote on it and out of the five and and you know they might say no they're crazy we're leaving it as it is and come back but she's sitting there asking us for specifics I understand that we're not qualified but you know we could we could go do some research and and see and we we could we could suggest an outlandish number my my friend I'm I'm talking out of experience this is not pain I've been in this table and many other committees and I'm telling you that that's beautiful no and romantic but it's not real life might I just ask our experts what have you seen other communities do and where do you think that we can look to find something to help us I know that we have challenged you ready Stephen and I thank you and we all thank you for what you've what you the direction you've given us but is there someplace we can look one of the things you and I talked about was Miami date um a couple of years ago we actually did look at what Miami date had because um one of their Agri tourism um Enterprises wanted to come up here um we didn't obviously look at any of that as we came forward with this we just tried to pick out the wording in the state law um but you know where can we go for for a model or are we like breaking new ground a little bit of both Miami day did adopt an ordinance a couple years ago and then they were they were in the middle of going through one that's been very controversial and I would say it's probably it looks like it's dead at this point in time for now um they're reconsidering it at least and and they got off on a on a deal about all food trucks and everything else it got really weird um as some things do in Miami dat um so I wouldn't necessarily you can look and see what they currently have on the books um if if you want to to see where it is I think some people like it some people think it exceeds the authority um but it has not been challenged uh what they have adopted um other areas have uh have gone forward and I and I said I I can go back and look and I can try to find some examples to send you but most of the conversations I've had have been uh kind of the path you're going down where they either adopt a agrotourism specific and say these are the other code Provisions in our that that shall apply to the offside impacts or they just say we're not going to adopt an agrotourism and we're just going to use these existing codes to address them and it's been done a couple I think different ways and then some have just decided not to do anything because it wasn't they decided it wasn't worth going through the whole code adoption process that's been my experience Sarah I know you've been involved in a lot of places around the state too you may have some more that come to mind off the top of your head that sounds good um I I can't think of anything else on the top of my head um yeah Miami day that seems to be dead for now I think so they did adopt one several years ago is there any value in looking at the one that they had adopted a while back and and it's still in place so yes you you could absolutely look at it it does a lot of what you're talking about it says um it sets up two conditions right I think it talks about AGR tourism on a lands and AGR tourism not on a lands that if you're on a classified lands you have uh these Provisions if your Agri tourism activity on on non-agricultural classified lands these additional Provisions shall apply um so it's and then they get involved and and they kind of wrap that up into the special event venues and it gets kind of um quirky from there so but yet they are on the books is is there one that you would suggest we model ourselves after so there aren't many that have actually gone forward and adopted full agrotourism statutes that or agrotourism ordinances that say agrotourism allset impact shall be this the most of them have said have ended up deciding that we have these other codes that are already out there and so we're just going to enforce these offsite impacts to those to those standards okay so our homework is to get you a list of relevant code sections and you decide if they're relevant or not you could say hey don't care about this that was my motion H that wasn't my motion but no I know it wasn't motion I'm trying to get the stuff I know right off the bat okay be for the council Town Council give us those parameters racing racing what you know what it is currently on the Cod since they are not they're not uh Peaceable or realistic so I have a motion we vote on the motion but we need a second I need a second who  if nobody then it's dead you no okay um so we're gonna go ahead and give you the list of relevant code sections um would you like to have fire rescue at your next meeting to talk about what their requirements are okay because it's my understanding that they have written a manual um and they don't have to talk the whole night they can just explain what the emergency access stuff is for theming to offside correct just just for that and then um we'll go ahead and go get the old or the existing Miami date um for you to look and send it out um not the recently proposed and the next meeting is March 6 that's 6:m is that everything it's turn yeah okay good thank you thank you both oh thank you yes thank thank you so much for everything thank you good night please let me know how I be helpful yeah