##VIDEO ID:vg-nKD7SlaY## sorry okay September 3D hat gr budget and regular budget hearing and regular meeting will now come to order oh sorry do I have to say that again no I'm my voice could I have a um I guess let's stand for the pledge of allegiance of the United States of America and to the rep for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and for all okay everyone we have a very big meeting tonight with Lots on it and um a lot of important decisions to make so we just take a moment to reflect on that I appreciate it okay if I can have a roll call though council member Shore council member danowski here council member manilia she will be late vice mayor Herzog here mayor Kane present Town manager Ralia here Town attorney tvia here Public Works director Gant present let the records show that uh council member Mania walked in okay any additions deletions or modifications yes Laura and and this is uh to the regular agenda I'd like to remove items 14 and 15 um I feel that since the p andz board um denied the applications that the applicant should go back to the drawing board versus US second guessing the people people that we've appointed to review plans let's see what Mr tvi has to say about that well on 14 and 15 we were going to suggest that they be flipped because in the agenda 14 uh should be the complain Amendment which is legislative and 15 should be the resoning which is quasi judicial um certainly if you decide to take them off the agenda to send them back that's an option or you can consider them as a comp plan first and if the comp plan passes then then the change then you go to the second item which is quas edial the complain Amendment fails then you never get to the second uh issue but certainly you always have the right as your agenda to reorder the agenda and make other decisions you could do it now or you could do it during that item for discussion Laura I'm sorry can you repeat what you said I'm sorry record um to remove items 15 and 14 or 14 and 15 um only because they both came before our pnz board who unanimously said please go back to the drawing board to the applicant and this was when uh Monday last Tuesday tues was yeah Monday or Tuesday Monday was the holiday so it must have been one day last week yeah there's yesterday Monday but the Monday before yeah yeah your option okay so does anybody else want to weigh in on that Robert yeah since we don't even have a quasi judicial hearing listed on here normally it's its own topic so there's already some confusion on those two items I would support removing them to a later date anybody else Marge says remove pis they're here well I too have some concerns about the fact that our pnz board um denied the application and I as Laura said count on our pnz our members that we've appointed to give us advice and I'm not sure that five days was enough time to uh resolve the problems I'm I'm wondering why this wasn't pushed back so that the applicant could have time to address what the pnz said it doesn't seem like it could have been properly addressed in this period of time so I would uh vote for removing it as well so we need to take a vote can can I I say anything on or I'm here on behalf of the applicant this is at this point you're reordering your agenda this is not public comment this is your own internal discussion right so for the record we did offer the applicant a chance to remove the item and come back later all right so I just need a motion I make a motion to remove items 15 and 14 until further notice we're prepared to present the changes I I don't know what the second Motion in can we amend that and approve the rest of the agenda or is there any more changes I I don't think there can you add your motion approve the rest of the agenda as do you want to add in to your motion to approve the rest of the agenda with removing items 14 14 and 15 yes and I have a I have a request from you as the mayor is it okay if I have my phone on the day as I have a ky horse and vet is on hand absolutely all right restating the motion remove items 14 and 15 until another date um approving the rest of the agenda and thank you mayor for the permission all in favor second all in favor I opposed okay passes I didn't hear you vote are you I didn't oppose it okay passes 5 to Z okay so the consent agenda is handled no consent is not not hand okay so uh public say the public comment first Valerie do we have any public comments yes we do uh miss elit good evening Madame mayor of vice mayor and uh Council so I'm Michelle L former mayor of the city of Palm Beach Gardens a pharmacist of 45 years and current candidate for State House District 94 which includes lockah Hatchi Groves so I just wanted to stop by today to introduce myself again some of you know me um and to thank you for the work that you do representing the city um the government closest to the people is the one that affects their daily lives the most so it's important work that that you do and I understand that um I also understand the importance of home rule and as a representative in Tallahassee I will be fighting to keep that so that the residents through the electoral process can choose their representatives and the kind of city that they want to live in I also understand that one of the main jobs of a representative is to bring home the bacon so to speak and make sure that Appropriations requests are made and brought back to the cities and the county that you represent um hd94 is the largest most diverse District in the county it's not a one-size fits all um a district and that's where my experience as an elected official comes in I understand uh the county the cities uh what the state needs to do to help us do the work that that or help you do the work that that you need to do on the ground um I'm chair Vice chair of the County's water task force that's a committee that uh council member Shore also sits on I serve on the steering committee for the Housing Coalition of Palm Beach County so the key issues that that we're all dealing with are the issues I want to focus on and have experience with we need to bring down the price of insurance we need to bring down the price and increase access to Affordable Health Care and we have to solve this affordability problem with our housing and increase housing Supply so they're the key issues again thank you for what you do I will always have an open door I will listen to your concerns take your suggestions and support your legislation when I'm up there in tallah Tallahassee representing the house district so thank you for your time tonight thank you for being here miss Leman Haiti Lake bin 15162 25th Place North the other day a dump truck arrived at my street well actually three of them before 7 in the morning and I thought wow they're finally bringing in some material well they accidentally dumped one load there which didn't even fill the puddle but is there like a list or I mean you should see my road and it's not because of all the rain it's it's pretty bad I drive a Camaro which I haven't driven in a month because of that I mean it's it is unbelievable and I don't really complain about the road too much can you state the road you live on 25th Place North and it only my driveway starts it's not it's five acres it's not even far but it is like unbelievable they try to get out there and grade it but from the Vets next door it's just there's nothing to push around there's no material there is there I mean how do you how do you address that is there a list is there a we used to call in for Courtesy grades I think we're beyond that point is this the are we still oh we're not allowed to do that that's gone no more courtesy grade no no more interaction with no Community oh okay well I guess that's gone to the Wayside fabulous well I would ask our Public Works director to thank you Craig sending your love letters okay um yeah it's being addressed the uh shell rock has been ordered waiting for the vendor and it's on the list should be done soon okay it just seems like it goes one extreme or the other like one side road gets paved and then the other one is underwater okay do we have a schedule do we have a schedule or next next week where did this come from okay thank you okay any more public comments Mr Austin Robert auson 746 hide Park Road um one of these is on the agenda about the RVs on the first draft you guys had um the date was wrong from November 1st to April 1st because we're trying to get rid of the year round camping and they added on 179 days I don't know if there's confusion about opening that back up to year round camping I'm hoping that we're not going to have year round camping because that's what got us in the mess in the first place is allowing people to have campers all over the Groves at six-month intervals even in the summertime if we can't tailor this to the equestrian Community the people who are trying to do things right and follow the rules then this might have to totally be scrapped eventually because uh they're worried about the little Campground that they're trying to put over there which I agree was too big and too invasive they're talking about 200 trips there but we have more than 200 campers illegally in the Groves internally with people driving up and down our streets internally all the time um also talking about uh the traffic on Southern bouard which kind of is funny because I if people don't pay attention or have Forward Thinking what's west of Fox Trail between here and Arden it's going to all be development State Road 80 is going to be 595 like in Broward within the next 10 15 years or 20 years I mean the writing's on the wall I almost didn't buy on collecting Canal because how close I am to Southern Boulevard it's going to be noisy it's going to be busy we're not going to stop that I'm worried about our commercial because it seems like we keep beating down commercial on Southern Boulevard Wellington is literally eating our lunch if you didn't see the signs over the Slug It property who we should have been over there kissing their butts to Annex all that property should be millions of dollars going into all our coffers in tax revenue is now going to go to Wellington because commercial is not a waste of time um I mean if if our little commercial tax base on Southern is not enough to support this town then we're going to be forced to put commercial in okobi which I'm sure nobody wants I'm sure Francine can tell you what's the main reason we lose our good employees paying benefits we can't pay them we don't have the money because we don't have the tax base so just please consider that so we don't lose our town and end up begging Wellington to take us over next 20 years thank you for your comment I have a comment card with no name on it the address is 3506b Road it's the mystery guest I'm just very shy oh please state your name for the record when you get to the microphone thing microphone to follow protocol good evening ladies and gentlemen my name is Brian mcneel 3506 B Road loat Florida and um I'm here because I'm alive this week thanks to the fire department and the Emergency Services people who scraped me out of my home at 2:30 in the morning 6 weeks ago with a massive blood clot what I wanted to tell you folks is we have an unbelievable response team and between the time that I made the phone call I was alone I had just driven back bringing my wife's horses to Maine and back which was a big mistake I drove too long and I drove myself into a bad situation the EMTs who responded were unbelievable so we are in good hands and who's ever out there that does all this stuff don't hesitate to call them um I did follow up I thanked a couple of people at the fire department and I got a little bit of feedback when I asked a very innocent question I said I I met you with my driveway I live about two-thirds of the way down on B- Road and I could see you on on OK chobby but it took you 11 minutes to get down B Road and he said Brian we have to stop at every pump we can't take the ambulance over these speed bumps we have to come to a dead Halt and I did the math 22 minutes with somebody who had what I had is a long time so I wanted to make sure that having just come from collecting Canal I see that we're using speed tables now which is great but is that a guaranteed now all future Paving particularly the as yet to be completed section of B- road that that we have abandoned the hump and gone to the table I I hope we have um on that note again more safety issues just coming to the meeting tonight once again at B- Road at the corner by the bill gu lot there is a massive water puddle and there is a drain 12 feet away from it but everybody comes around that corner I've got Guatemala's on B icles here trying to cross I've got people with landscaping equipment taking the corner wide around the puddle it's very dangerous and this is the second time I've brought it up Public Works is doing a fabulous job I've watched the changes but this one little hang nail is very dangerous if you could please put it on the list and connect the drainage with the the the drain base and I think we've solved that problem okay um and I keep bringing this up but I will bring it up until I can get handle on how to handle this can we still pursue the idea of some kind of improved traffic circulation at the intersection of B- road and okachobee in the form of a roundabout everywhere I travel I just came from Georgia all the communities out there are using roundabouts and they work but I don't know what to do beyond that I don't know who to talk to I don't know how to address this can you folks help I'll do whatever I have to do I'll write letters I'll go to tallah thank you thank you for your comment right a big check Brian why why don't you have our hotels and our commercial developments that want to impact B WR Val is there any more public comment no mayor okay thank you so much all right moving on to the consent agenda everybody okay with the consent agenda I'd like to pull two and five I want to pull one and four one two four and five are being pulled okay we're gonna move them to um question yes so do you have three people that want to remove the items from consent I don't do you need a vote to remove them cons or ar we gonna vote on consent do you possibly have three votes Glen that's not in the past we've always allowed people to pull it individually that's been your protocol in the past been our protocol in yeah but without argument so I'm having an argument I want to know do we have three council members that are going to approve the consent agenda as is well I would approve it as is I would approve it as is I had full five okay so all right so can we approve but what I'm going to do is I'm going to move one two four and five to the very end they're going to go after 21 make what correct they're going to go to the very end you don't do that well we are now you don't rearrange the agenda after you've already had a when additions deletions and modifications to an agenda you're trying to modify the agenda in the middle of the meeting so you're moving something from the consent agenda and you can move it to wherever on the agenda that all of you want to go obviously I'm suggesting that these are things that we thought we assumed we had consent on that we've talked about repeatedly and that we have a lot of other important things to do so since they still need to be talked about let's move them to the end and take care of the bus if we move it it's no longer a consent item correct it's not and suggesting that since presumably there's something that are going to require a lot of amount of intelligent thought and by the time we get to them it's going to be 11 o'clock tonight that we move them to the end and address the things that we need our brain cells for more for now so that's what I'm suggesting so one two four and five will move to after 21 or actually not after 21 I'm sorry after um yeah after after 20 let's move them after 20 I'm sorry Madame mayor yeah there was a request made to me to move item number um four to the September 18th agenda if you're moving them I thought I would share that request made by who a council member by a council member to move it to is everybody okay with that taking for completely off and moving it to the next meeting sure y that okay so four will go to the next meeting three Will consent and one two and five will come after 20 everybody okay with that yep okay can we vote on approving item number three under consent motion to approve item three and consent agenda as written second all in favor I all righty we're on to item number six item number six is a presentation from Ingenuity with regard to the changes to section 130 of the town's code relative to flood plane management and in addition to the changes to section 130 that you require us to bring forward an ordinance to change at a subsequent meeting we also have some um suggestions for changing the manner in which we evaluate um storage and um thank you so much the need for engineering calculations in certain circumstances and that is what um Miss trappi is passing out right now um this was a really excellent effort by led by Ingenuity and involving all of our staff and Engineers internally and externally um these changes were run by at least three of the seven Engineers we talked to originally um you know since it was done in such a short period of time all the public feedback hasn't come back but we wanted you to see where we were at so without further Ado I'm turning it over to miss troppy and her team who both here good evening um town mayor and council members for the record my name is Lisa troppy from enginuity group I am here with my engineering colleagues Tara Bamber and Adam sweny and as you can recall back in July July 16th there was a town council meeting where we went over um surface water policy reviews and the Land Development permitting process and you all gave us Direction um on approximately F five issues um that we um listen to and um heard your your um thoughts and I'm excited to say that we did like Francine said as a team a whole team the staff everyone work together really hard really quickly and we've addressed um I believe we addressed the the issues that you were talking about with respect to streamlining things that we can change and we can't change section 175 the flood plane ordinance that's a federal ordinance but we did do an entire pretty much an entire rewrite of our town code which is section 130 I handed to you um a paper copy said you could just follow along with that I know you already have that in your book but that's just ours and so um we wanted to be able to have you look at it our stuff okay so the first part is let me just say the first part is with with respect to the town code section 130 itself okay then we're going to talk to you about three different processes one about Minor fill activity you asked us to look into the second one has to do with sand rings and the third one has to do with minor engineering So Adam if you could please um run through Section 130 as best you can it's a little complicated but um but I think you'll be happy with the proposed changes all right thank you good evening Adam sweny with engineuity group it's on can you hear me yeah okay you may not be able to read up there but this is the proposed revisions to section 130 uh- 035 of the code on item one uh the proposed change was to minimum roadway parking lot elevations shall be above the 10year one day storm previously was the 10year 3-day storm and we also Chang that to just be non-residential uses for residential roadways you don't have to meet that criteria so that relaxes that rule slightly item two the change the previous code referenced to 25-year three-day storm for minimum perimeter elevation we're changing that uh eliminated the minimum perimeter Elation and we're using a 10year 3day storm event for development you have to hold the drainage prior to disch charge to a control structure for 10 year versus a 25 year so that also relaxes that standard to be more in line with South floor Water Management District criteria that's based on your town permit so we can't really go any less than that all right uh item three same thing we went through a 10e 3day storm event um there were some other recent changes since our last meeting that at the very end of June um the state had some new rules Florida Administrative Code was revised in regard to environmental resource permitting so those are referenced here just for ease of use so any uh development is aware of that they just need to follow the DP new rules and some of that relates to water quality um but there's exemptions for Grand bothered properties so instead of copying that whole code we're just referencing it here item four nothing really changed we just that's regarding 100-year finish floor elevation so for any new uh buildings in the town they need to use it either use South Florida water management or fima item five again references the change from a 25e to a 10-year storm and also uh makes mention of minimum allowable discharge either through a bleeder if you have a control structure or a prevere post analysis so that will open up uh we we'll talk about that a little bit more with one of the other minor engineering development uh options uh item six this just reiterates historic drainage spiles one of the town's intention is to have them remain unaltered and uh with a drainage eement where where possible number seven the only change here this is with regards to uh pipe sizing of storm water pipes we put it only for non-residential properties and only a a three-year storm not a fiveyear so that's a little bit more of the standard and less uh strict than previous uh number eight is completely new section this is U basically a statement about um unrecorded plats subdivision they have a little bit different rules here and uh with regards to someone that just wanted to do a Primary Residential structure you still have to meet compensating storage that's Florida state law so that's referenced here and then the exemptions from environmental resource permitting are also listed that's Florida state law Mr Sweeny yes I want to interrupt you because the main goal of this item is to preserve historical drainage that is not found in our records that is only found in the unrecorded subdivision plats this is not allowing anybody to do anything more um than preserve the existing drainage this doesn't Grant rights this strictly says You must see what historical drainage is there and preserve it did I say that correctly yeah yes that's correct all right eight nine and 10 the the last three are unchanged all right you go to the next slide continue on I think the next item yeah right here right Lisa do you want to talk about sure unless does anyone have any questions with respect to section 130 first and then continue I know it is it is a lot so believe it or not equestrians are not the only people that live here so with that said I want to ask how this affects people that just need to maybe redo their driveway they have a driveway on their 10 acres and they've been using it and the driveway goes all the way through all the way back to their house and it's got potholes now through the year and we've had water events so what do those people have to do to rebed their driveways because I'm gonna tell you how much a survey costs a bound survey on 10 acres only from one company I called this week six grand yep all right so we we're not done okay so I'm hoping you're going to address that yes well yes we we there's more there's more to the presentation we just wanted to see if there was any questions with respect to to to town code 130 well I guess that's La it's kind of almost hard to address any questions in30 because I'd like to hear how you know some of these criteria in these applications are going to tie in and for folks in the audience who don't have this in front of us you're Sugg you the group the team is suggesting that we need to pull a permit if we are going to replace Bill if we took out a tree and need to fill in the hole or pull a permit for landscaping in private property so I'm kind of curious how this is all going to tie in p and to piggy back on that I'm curious about thee for that before you start I just want you to know that um these are generally In The Same Spirit as we are looking at tree exemptions this is an exemption not a permit for minor Phill and um it should say on there that it's an exemption we're saying you can bring in up to a certain amount of fill just like you can take down non-invasive trees and that has no fee on it this is to protect the person I see the top of it these are draft forms but the intention is to protect the person who's strictly bringing some fill in and it's based on the size of the property but I just the only reason I said that is because I wanted to make the point it's in the spirit of we understand it's necess necessary just like taking invasives out is necessary and it's an exemption not a permit turning back to you Lisa right so there's there's three other parts so maybe we should just go to the three other parts okay three parts to this and again this is based on you all given us direction to look at five different things which we did and so this is what we're presenting today so the first part is a just a notification it is not a Perman it's a notification for minor fill activity so again I'd like to re reiterate my question so there is no cost associated with notifying of minor fill activity no not intended to be there's no intention that there be any cost if you're doing any of these things that Laura just right we haven't we haven't talked about any fees for anything we have draft forms for discussion but so this is just I'm doing it so the town's aware that you're bringing in three loads of fill to whatever right your chicken coops so this this was the start of a form okay there's three of them in there they're all marked draft okay they all mean different things and so let's go through each one of them okay and then you all can decide should there be a fee or not be a fee that's the input we need from you all and hopefully at the end of all of this you'll ask us to move forward with first reading at the next council meeting I mean I think that would be the next progression from the discussion that we had at the workshop so the discussion that we had at the workshop is what are we going to do about small fill Improvement areas where there's maintenance routine maintenance how do we deal with that we had presented to you um something from the county that the county has actually been using since 2018 it's their regulation of lot filling and Grading activity so we went back to the county and met with them and had discussions with them about what they do we also checked with the town of Southwest Ranches which is very similar to the town of lahache groves and looked at their um policy and procedures and actually used a little bit of their form and um and the quantities that you're they're using is basically the same as what we're proposing this is a proposal okay we also looked at seminol County ordinance um with respect to the amount of fill that they bring in and so from all three of those areas um we took a look at what they do is it similar do they have issues and try to find a happy medium where we're kind of looking at a standard in the industry when in engineering you try to look at areas that are standard in the industry things that have been tried and true and so we spent some time with the county the county told us that the regulation that they've been using which is basically 20 cubic yards for areas that are approximately 1.25 Acres now it doesn't they don't have a regulation on the size but we're using that as the model because Indian Trail Improvement districts size Lots are about 1.25 Acres okay 20 cubic yards for 1.25 acres for 24 months you fill out a form just fill out a form and sign an affidavit this is what we're proposing what about this thing at the bottom attach copies of the following flood plane areas topographical survey I mean okay so the I mean it seems like a lot of work to fill in a hole that you just took a tree out of okay so the first part is what if if the applicant if the person that's filling this form out cannot get on the computer on the my geonav and pull out their property we can do that that's not a problem okay so that's taking their address and pulling it up on my geonav domcom just to show that they're in a flood plane or not in a flood plane where they're going to bring in this fill okay this fill is not in within a flood plane that's all the second second part is a topographic survey only if it's applicable okay so let's go back the front of the app this form this notification is for field nurseries septic tank and drainfield repairs tree planting landscaping and private property routine maintenance and I have a definition for that in here um installation of lawn sprinklers and the replenishment or or erosion of soils and ground cover can also be um used to maintain your driveways if need be um the fourth page is just a guide that explains like routine maintenance activities include driveways walkway maintenance maintenance of existing stalls for farm animals maintenance for Phill and existing horse Arenas and all these other things that I'm talking about and it also has an area that says other because maybe we missed something that we are not saying tonight and so we basically followed what the county is using to follow their standard so for example if there's a 5 acre piece of property um they're going to be allowed four truckloads or approximately 80 cubic yards of fill to be used and all we ask is that you fill out this form and sign the affidavit and you can do it online it's they can do it online and it's just to let us know that they're coming in and they're bringing in um so many truckloads depending upon the size of your property that's it as long as it's not in a flood plane so so that's all that's what we're asking for and like I said if they don't if the land owner doesn't know how to go in to pull up that flood plane map we could do that and right now everybody who's bringing in Phil based on the way that we have our code written has to come in and go through the process and what we're trying to do is eliminate the process and treat it very much like we do with the Exotic trees we want to make sure that everybody knows you're taking them down so when we get all the phone calls that you put fill on your property or you're doing this and that yes we know they followed the rules not a problem okay Robert you had a question at this point yeah um page two the affidavit the paragraph where you certify it says pH activity will not occur in a flood plane or easi my driveway is an easi so you're telling me I can fill my driveway there's an affidavit that says I can't put Phil in an eement most driveway on Backes that needs to be changed and we could do that I mean this is verbage that we worked on with the attorneys just pointing out that there not altering the grade by more than one inch who cares if it's out of the flood plane you're not affecting the flood plane you're out of it who cares if I raise it four feet I'm not affecting the flood plane okay [Music] well it's still impov surface you gotta hold hold on to that one okay hold on to that one because that's we have another part to this okay Robert are you done yes Laura so if somebody has stalls and they're already filled with sand and there's already a roof over them and you already have mats in your stalls why why would I need to communicate that saying hey ring ring ring I'm going to redo three of my stalls it's it's already covered right I there's only one reason why it's even in here and you all may know this or you all may not know this but we got a lot of phone calls from Neighbors people call a lot and they call every time they see trees coming down or Phill coming in or out and so if we had a notification and I would be certainly willing to just have this be something even less just that somebody signs off that they're that's what they're doing the real goal is for us not to cause anybody to do extra work except let us know and that they fall into these categories or the betting and stalls so that we don't have to send somebody out to check whether anybody's doing something not okay so what you're suggesting is that it's not a matter of that there's going to be any restriction on this any associated with it or anything like that that it's just simply letting the town know hey I'm bringing in two trucks because I'm gonna right get my redo my stalls and and in get any calls add some sand to a couple of paddocks in case you get a couple of calls can we simplify this down to that sure we can well it's it is it's a just a not it's a notification that's what it is it's a notification and I if I have a horse that urinates a lot in its stall I may have to put three inches of sand under where her pee hole is when I pull her mats up and do it and you're telling me I can only put one inch in so I'm still going to have a divid my stall where my horse Fe right well I think that we can work on how we do this we can work on how we do this let's talk about the one inch because you know don't forget I'm not an engineer I'm a dummy I have to ask a lot of questions one inch is the point at which something registers on a survey so all this is saying is you're making no change to your property Richard was going to jump in before and speak to council member Shore's comment because if 10 truckloads on 10 acres are all going in one spot that does change your elevation but if four truckloads are coming into your stall to replace what's already in there and you're taking out what was there you're not changing anything right so it's just a matter of us figuring out the nice mechanics to get somebody to tell us trust we're not making any change we just want you to know when you get those phone calls we're we're going to be bringing in Phil and we know the rules 80 truck loads for 10 acres okay am I saying it right Lisa right I mean it's to help the the residents and the Neighbors when these trucks are coming onto someone's property that they don't quickly call Town Hall and ask for code enforcement I you might simplify a few things in this for and make it less restrictive yeah okay I mean I understand this is a draft I'm just saying I think you need to simplify this a little bit and like Francine is suggesting let it be up to the resident Integrity of how they're going to use their fill if they're bringing in the fill for agricultural purposes to Reed chicken coops and stalls and whatever else I can't think of their Garden or whatever it's not to it's it can be to to replenish the grade that's already there that's the that's that's and what we're letting you know as owners of animals that sometimes that's going to be significantly more than one inch well it that that's that's fine as long as you're not changing the grade okay all right okay so the intent is supposed to be is let's say you built your barn it's at 186 that's what the Finish floor elevation is through time your horses have removed a foot of fill so now you're at 176 as long as you do not go over 187 because your original Barn elevation was 186 you can fill to that point and not go over an inch of that point that's the intent that's not how this just that's what the intent is so if you built your barn at one foot above Bas FL elevation which is a fill because of activity of your horses or whatever happened you can fill two not more than one inch above what that original base flood elevation is right and I understand this was written by you know a bunch of Engineers you got bu of people that are highly educated but might I suggest like I have to Mr tvia in the past less words and simplify I mean let's like it it just we don't need all this let's keep it simple I'm sorry Rob you had something else oh Mar was first thank you march yeah I I just want to know what what is the impact of all of this uh keeping track of who's taking and who's uh receiving and whatever you know is this going to require one two or three more staff members keep track of it less the goal is less because now if somebody calls and says there's truck rels of fill going on to this property which that's a very common phone call we don't have to send out a code we don't have to send anybody out anymore because we can actually call the person and go hey what are you doing and they'll say oh I'm just fixing my barn up and we'll say oh all right just go online and click these couple of things we can make this online a couple of clicks you know that's what I want online a couple of Click we can really that these truckloads of dirt that are leaving uh locks a Hatchy taking it somewhere else um we'll have control over that also well I think that's something different than doing maintenance I mean there will be some fill that might leave you know I mean if you're Excavating and redoing you know but um I'm gonna I think that falls into another category weing yeah this is more replenishing Robert can we add a separate permit because I get a dump truck load of dirt and I use it at my leisure I put it in my golf cart I got 40 acres I drive around I fill in holes some of them are in the flood plane where my horse dug a hole this big overnight in the flood plane I got to fill that hole in and I can't scrape the sand from around the hole and get the hole filled so I would like to see something that allows somebody to bring in that dump truck set it somewhere and have it there that's what I and I don't see that anywhere we really haven't talked about it so right that that would be another point is that it's not for necessarily immediate usage because you know you've gotta do this stuff as you as you're I mean it's it's a good idea when you have a farm to have a load of fill on the side on the site at all times and that nobody's going to call you in for that La I think we should have bringing in engineered to work weekend that's what I think we should do yes look the bottom line is we don't want to penalize anybody for living and we also don't want to be the neighbor police either and we're we're turning into the neighbor police because somebody calls and says 10 truckloads a fill you know and what do we have to do well whatever people we have which is not just the code people run out right no I think the notifying is is just to be really simple I like your two clicks on the computer simple it would be good if we can get it to that we'll make it like an FAQ if you're doing this click here if you're doing that click there right well the notification one page yeah I just made a guide on the back yeah no and the affidavit that came from the attorneys is two pages yeah well he's interestingly absent what aise remove we like the idea right you like the idea I like the idea I like anything that would cost us less hassle of staff I just think it needs to be simplified and well I think neighbors would be happier too that they can live question so I want to go back to the driveway so say it's 10 acres and it meanders in and out of the flood plane but it's one driveway that goes back to the house it's been there since the 1970s so what about that driveway does that person to replenish their driveway have to get a boundary survey and by the way if you're going to get a boundary survey which is six grand you might as well get an elevation survey and spend a little more money because you're going to need it sooner or later so um so we put on here only if it applies so in that regard it doesn't apply and you can maintain your driveway but it's saying excluding I'm sorry I'm go ahead looking not within the flood plane so it's 10 acres as a driveway say this driveway doesn't go up the Eastman go smack up the midle so how's it going to affect that person you know I just think it's crazy somebody wants to put in a driveway that's already been existing they're not alternating where it's going you know they're just want to replenish it and I think it's kind of crazy that they would have to get a survey I this notification is for maintenance purposes and non-grade changes outside of a blood plane but it says it says if but it keeps saying outside of a flood plane but I'm talking about a 10 acres that may be in and out so how do we do that for this person M ring or not changing the elevation more than an inch above whatever you know driveway is going to be whatever so take out if it's in a flood plane that off the form in a flood plane so now you're getting into the FEMA requirements of the FP which require anything that's within a flood plane requires a permit period that's their requirement I had a whole long conversation with FEMA about that that's right I forgot to mention that everything that's in here was sent to FEMA and Richard and FEMA went through everything to make sure that we would still be in compliance with FEMA but I hear what you're saying you're saying if you're making no difference and I think that's really the key here that's the reason for the inch just improving what was already there and what has just what was already there I think that falls into the minimum improvements and if there's no change in the elevation then nothing really very limited information is required because I want to I want to be honest about my driveway okay I um when Mr tiom was still manag here I said I'm a council member I want to make sure you know I'm doing things by the book so what do I have to do I want to put in a uh crushed concrete driveway and Mr Peters showed up Mr tiom showed up and they said what you take out you put back in so you're not raising anything and that's what they allowed me to do nobody asked me to fill out a permit nobody asked me to out or do anything and um which I wouldn't have minded doing filling out a permit but I'm just saying is that the is that permitted you know if you're just gonna take it out and then put it back in or what is worn away put it back in yeah that's the intent of this the reason for this application is because the number of phone calls we get and it's either and nine times out of 10 it's either myself or the uh superintendent and if you you know we'll have a discussion about pay pay later how much money is being spent with me in my car driving all the way to wherever because somebody called in because they saw a truck going into somebody's driveway and we have to respond because if we don't respond y'all are going to be the ones to get the phone call saying I called the town and they did nothing so we have to respond but could be somebody mining dirt or we had we've had call we've had calls where people call us up and say oh yeah I just saw 10 truckloads the dirt go in there we call the resident up and the resident's like yeah I'm just filling in my driveway pull up to their house and half their Wetland is covered in dirt because they decide to go ahead and fill it in um well so how do we take care of our residents that just want to replenish their driveway right and that's without it survey and that's what this is for well that's why you go to the website that's what this is for right you certify that they're not changing the grade more than an inch and it's a case by case basis but it's 10 acres and it if you needers through the blood plane if you need 160 yards of dirt to replenish your driveway on a 10 acre lot because that's what this that's what the right you're allow trucks it's under that then you're not requiring a permit you have to fill this out it's it's just a notification it's just a you're not requiring elevation you're not requiring a survey and you're not requiring engineering correct there's no okay here's the good news there's absolutely no engineering to this form okay there's no engineering it's just a notification so we're going to make some changes on this and simplify it we're going to take off the Topo because it's just not going to be applicable when you tell us you're not well that's why we just put if applicable it's has so with respect to driveways it doesn't apply yeah well let me just make a point on the toppo I can get a toppo to prove you're my G NE wrone and then I'm going to fight you and tell you I'm not on the flood plane because my toppo says I'm not you file a letter of map Amendment yeah we're good with that that's what you do you file a letter of map Amendment with feema I mean though you could provide a toppo to prove you're not in the flood and we recommend that if you could get a topo done and it shows that you are out of the flood plane file letter map with FMA and then they will take you out the flood plan you have problem solve yeah we benefit you to do that all right yeah can we move on to the sand application we're just going to from what you guys have just told us we're going to make sure that it's more clear where it says there's no grade change right and that there can for driveways high no the easement the easement you asked us to also talk about that so we need to go back with the attorneys with respect to the affidavit on that well the other thing we also need to do is we need to agree that you can store fill on your property correct up to the size you know up to the related size that's allowed for general maintenance yeah okay because we just again want to make it easier the other thing I would also point out is again in the spirit of the tree exemption or the tree notification because we Chang that to notification too it's my bad to keep saying exemption we offer to send somebody out to help you so again if somebody calls and says we'll come out Richard or whoever will go out we'll let you know if you have to do something or not if you want that if you don't want that you could just do the nice easy online and we'll take your word for it it's on our system all right okay so this the second process is with is the second process the sand Rings yes okay do one of you one all right so the sand ring there's two right I'm sorry there's sandings and minor engineering project um so they're they're very similar um the sand Rings this is a permit this is not a notification um so the application is much simpler though than um we're used well yes yes and no so we put construction and expansion of new um rings and Arenas but it's on a case-by Case basis because things can change if you're making something new or if you're expanding something it's not just take away and put it back in the same place so um it might be a little bit more calculations or it might be you are GNA fill a little bit more so maybe you need a Swale around it um so this one requires engineering this one requires engineering but it's limited engineering Phil replace Phil in my Arena requires engineering only if there's been a change in the elevation okay save people money doing this way so the maintenance of the existing um previously permitted Arena um San ring that that's what we're going to keep talking about mostly um so it's really this is just information to fill out um the second page is what's required so there is a survey but it's only the area of the affected sand ring plus 40 ft out so we can know um what's going like are you going into somebody else's property like what's what's happening 40 feet out um on all sides okay so again Laura's field trip is becoming really applicable here because sand Rings need to be replenished about every two years some people might go three to four years they need be resurfaced and replenished you have horses riding in them and pushing sand out of the arena and it's not actually Sand by the way just for your information but whatever pushing material out of the Arena they get graded daily sometimes two times a day depending on the usage this is all pushing material to the outside and out of the arena and they need to be replenished constantly we cannot require that people get a permit and an engineer ing study every time they have to replenish their Arenas we we just can't we can't it's it's prohibitive it doesn't require a complete survey and Engineering every time they do that that's that's that's an unfair burden on our on our people who have Arenas whether they be for catching cows or riding bassage horses or whatever they have the arenas for that I have to interject and share something with you okay we had a resident recently and I'll just tell you real stories we had a resident recently who bought bought a piece of property and said you know when their neighbor complained about their many neighbors complained about all the activity going on on their property we went over to the property several people went over to the property when we found out what they were doing it definitely was more than what they said they were doing now just stay with me okay so they reached out to me because they thought this is ridiculous and I said absolutely come in and talk with me because if there is any possible way that we can make this easier for you that's what we're going to do so they brought in their engineer I got the old engineer on the property because I said if you can get the old engineer that did the original FDA to sign off on this you won't need anything okay and everybody I'm super short circuiting the story and everybody's getting ready to leave that meeting that everything's okay and then we look and the ring is a foot higher than it was and they were just doing maintenance so I guess that's the real question how do we protect the town without doing the check and that's why we asked for simple Topo and but I'm just just finishing simple toppo and simple calculations and everybody agreed to do that the reason being is our current code is right now now a $155,000 blood plane review yeah we don't want that we don't want that but when they do it this way it's under 5,000 or even less because if you can get your original engineer with that did your original FDA to say there's no change in elevation you're done so I mean I want to do something that's easy for people and right now our code doesn't really make it easy so this was something that we worked with the with two different outside Engineers with that client to get to this solution to move it on I'm open we're open yeah five grand doesn't sound very simple to me it doesn't but good all right so first of all you don't have an arena yet so what I'm gonna say do maintaining Arena what I'm going to say is when you do put in an arena you're going to have your survey you're GNA have your elevations and you're G to have your engineering so if you're going to so the town is going to have all this information because when you're done with your little horse farm you're going to have it all there so in three years from now when you go back to replenish it the town al already has your stuff so they're going to see your Arena's down or whatever or maybe it's not you just want to change the footing okay so I don't think that needs an engineer and a new survey and new elevation did you hear what I said if they have an FDA that already had all of their cute little horse farm like you said already in place and their engineer says this isn't going to change anything then they fit into this then they go forward as long as spending $5,000 without spending a dime if the old engineer will do an engineer certification no change because they already had an FDA Aces baby L it's going to cost you no engineer is going to do that for they're not going to charge you 5K either it's going to be a much lower fee hopefully the issue is what actually happens well actually you just need a survey because if you if your if your Arena was permitted the since she's discussing the resident bought the property with the arena the arena did not exist legally she went in there with a bulldozer and ripped it all out and screamed it's just maintenance like no no it's not um but if if you have a legally installed like thing and and you're replenishing it or repoting it and you have to have somebody come out and shoot elevations which a qualified uh company who knows what they're doing should be getting somebody to shoot the elevations because you don't want an arena that does this well you're going to have it laser graded so laser they laser graded as long as a la are graded to a specific elevation that elevation matches within an inch of the original elevation on the original permit then you're done and no cost but if you're but if the owner decides they want to raise it six inches or raise it a foot which is the the incident with this particular resident um because they came back their original elevations were one thing and then they come in and say look we're not changing the elevation and then we find out that no you are changing the elevation and so at that point is when you need to have all the other stuff somebody just interrupting for one second Laura Robert if you don't mind I know we have somebody who's a professional in this field standing here looking to say something so I'd be interested in perhaps he could provide some insight on this before we go on so may please yeah mayor over here down here hey um we have three public comments on this item just so you're aware okay and I'm not trying to ignore anybody else's public comment and we'll let them we will let them comment but we have someone who puts in arenas for a living and I would be I personally I think Council would be interested hear what he has to say about this sorry go ahead we had two Arena Builders earlier thank you Council Brad Ral was 1261 f Road representing ESI footing we've been building arenas for about 20 years I think everybody's kind of on the right track here but in different Realms of direction there's so many different things I mean Richard's got a good point when if they're not following the rules and they're trying to build something back up and slide it in yeah definitely definitely off Bas there and how do we keep track of that I mean we got to trust our local contractors but even in the field that we're in there's tons of new little contractors coming in and oh I want to be an arena Builder so we're getting tons of competition usually they read their way out because they can't perform the jobs and do what we need for riding surfaces but Arena maintenances uh good examples in Wellington I mean we perform Arena maintenances typically with all our clients that has a new existing Arena that we've built we're going to come back once or twice a year to do maintenance what is maintenance involved maintenance typically involves tilling the surface resetting the surface when I say resetting it we're resetting it with a laser component of the machine so it's machine control the machine is grading the surface the operator is not the laser is setting it orless we're running GPS so we run GPS and Laser guided equipment so if we're doing maintenance on anybody's Arena that's in this room twice a year that shouldn't require anything with the town in my opinion and we agree it doesn't in Wellington now and I use Wellington because they have this down pretty good over there if they see us bring in dirt it could be a hassle but typically if we're going to bring in two loads of footing on an arena that would happen 3 to five years every 3 to five years you might take a couple loads of new Surface and it's called maintenance it's still maintenance you're not breaking the rules on a good Arena you're going to have a baseboard that you're following anybody Richard these guys could walk out and look immediately and say yeah they they might be a half inch higher than they were before no big deal um but typically you're not if you're adding surface to it you're just replenishing what's happening so there's a way to get to this and and I think the problem is is the community always calling oh there's a dump truck dumping and how do we get past that how do we get to the point of doing that but if you want your engineer to recertify something they did two years ago five years ago because we're doing Arena maintenance and we're going to add five loads of footing this year because it's it's been five or six years it's been eight years since I done it storm water any of these groups are not going to say oh yeah I'll do it they're going to charge you and and they could charge anywhere from $2 to $5,000 because it's going to take the following they're going to do the application submit it to you guys so they're going to certify it that it hasn't exceeded the X elevation that it was permanent for so that also then takes a surveyor surveyor's got to come out survey and take a topo with the arena and submit it to the engineer engineer is going to bring it back so really now you're not even at five grand you're above five grand and for arena maintenance how do we get that portion of the service provided without the homeowner paying 5,000 because technically they should pay 5,000 3 to 5,000 for the whole service so the Engineering Services could cost even more than what it took to do maintenance on the arena well I you're M you're maintaining the grade so you know I but somebody's got to certify it somebody's got to say that we're above or below Madame mayor yeah so I love everything you said you want to know why because this is Wellington sand ring application form this is actually their form and we had the previous engineer um and the new engineer both in the room the previous engineer willing to sign off on his old stuff quite honestly I don't want to have to have all the engineering stuff because contrary to anybody's common knowledge the tie up on things is once things go out to Engineers that's how we can't get stuff through the system spending money the clients or the homeowners spending the money everybody spending money trying to eliminate that so I guess what I'm hearing is it's possible that we can get a contractor certification you know so if whoever's doing whoever guy who's doing the I me I mean as long as there is a certification I I mean if we know that okay so we just built a couple new Arenas so with a new Arena it's easy to say what the elevation is if we built it but I have to say we're getting more and more calls out here from Arenas that have probably been in the ground 10 eight to 15 years and technically they're they're built they were probably never certified when they were built and they got grass borders some have fences some don't and how can I make my Arena better right they're on a budget so you're analyzing it you're like like well we'll till it we'll get it soft again and we'll add a couple loads of footing are we really changing over a 100 by 200 foot area adding two loads of footing to it no not even a quarter inch at that point but it was somewhere or so I couldn't certify it because I could tell you at the end of the job or even before we did the job it'll change within a quarter inch or it to change within a half inch does that matter no that's going to be up to the town no no matter takes is that whoever's doing the maintenance work yeah we we've got to get a certification okay let me let me also put in another point of of information the point of information that is troublesome for us is exactly what Mr rafowitz is saying they're 10 12 15 years and older that means that there was never any elevation or topographical stuff done and if they're in the flood plane we're out of compl liance with FEMA if that isn't done and we wouldn't know if it was not FL orless we went through the process which is why we were suggesting a jumping off point and if we have somebody that already has an FDA okay then it's simple and we originally and we had something in one of the forums if you originally have an FDA if you have somebody who's doing the maintenance and they're going to certify it there are a number of ways to Simply based on existing conditions but where you have something that was installed or before the flood plane um rules of the federal government came in or hasn't been maintained at all in the ensuing period then we don't want to send somebody through the full flood plane calculations were hoping that they can do some very simple engineering calculations so that the whole thing not just one engineers's price but the whole thing is less money so however we can do this that makes it faster and cheaper and still in compliance with FEMA that's what we want to do and that's why we wanted to have a discussion to get this feedback we got a lot of information thank you Mr R I think there's easier ways to get to than what we've already talked about but I think it'll take a little bit of teamwork to figure out how how how do we make it simple easy stupid can you give your card we certainly appreciate your we appreciate your comment and your expertise thank you thanks for having me up appreciate it not sure which one of you were first who Wanna I'll let lady first okay Robert Laur thank you when we say compliance with FEMA this is after we revise the agricultural application of FEMA versus the stringent curban gutter HOA C cified cied thing you it anyway um so just throwing that out there because I'm kind of giggling as I'm reading these criteria also plan shall include any pertinent details and specifications such as a crosssection of the proposed sand ring with layers shown in labeled Rock underd drain Filter Fabric sand footing Etc I can name three Arenas that have evolved because they were the flattest place on somebody's property to ride you know and like Mr alowitz just said you're you're going back a decade Plus for many many people in this town so thank you all thus far Robert yeah can we just add a check box on the notification for minor fill activity that says Arena maintenance and then put parentheses maximum 40 cubic yards so that's easy that you know goes on the same so that's just routine maintenance it doesn't require anything and then all this other stuff requires a little bit more yeah I mean Brett hit some of the key numbers I was looking for like how often do you have to do it right you know what's two dump trucks get you it's a jumper Arena ONE dump truck maybe a yourage Arena it just you know we put like a separate table on the minor fill the minor just add another check box and put in there you know maximum two dump trucks basically 40 cubic yards it's already in it's it's already on it's already in here but we could put it on the first page I already wrote it on here for maintenance fill of an existing horse Arena it's already on here it's no this needs to be under the notification for minor fil like I get I get it yes it's on page any of that other it's on page four well page four but I'll put it we'll put it to page one oh okay it's on page four and maybe the maximum 40 cubic yards is a good indicator when they come in for it hey you know that you know delineates between yeah you know I'm doing two the maintenance but um because it almost seems like this was going a direction to bring people up to code that had Arenas prior to 2017 it's like ah you want to maintain it we got you now you got to bring it up to code per FEMA and that's not the intent of this program in my opinion it's not to catch these people at built Arenas prior to 2017 and make them go through all these hoops and get them certified per you know the FDA plan so if we can do that simple check box then the rest of the Arena stuff stays the way it is if you're doing a modification if you're adding making it bigger whatever okay great phis so um I thank um Brett rfh lewitz for coming up and giving us his expert opin opion and I think he's 100% right I don't think you're going to find any of these Engineers to come back and sign off for free or for cheap ain't gonna happen it ain't gonna happen so I think maybe at a small fee maybe just utilize our code enforcement officer to take a picture either before or after or after it's done take a picture this is what it looked like take a picture with the tape measure and this is the height of the Arena whatever but just something to say it's done so people don't take advantage of the town and build something other than what they say they're doing well if if well code enforcement isn't certified to be able to determ elevations of anything and what would they use as a reference just a picture but you said use a tape measure what would they use as a reference reference you have to reference the tape measure off of something sanding next to but Richard I think we heard from the council for maintenance up to 40 cubic yards we could do the notice and then if it's over 40 cubic yards then we have to figure out it's just like whether we're going to do a tree permit or a waiver so the question still is though say it's prior to 2017 these folks put an arena in and it's in their flood plane so now what and they want to add material and they want to add material to an existing Arena now what as long as they don't change it more than an inch oh so you're gonna let them replenish it yeah even if it's in a flood plane well that's the thing as long as they don't change it more than an inch if it's say it's it's you know flood was already pre-existing right the base flood elevation in locket grows a 176 if it's 16 feet we'll just say and and it gets worn down it's now at 155 they bring in you know a couple inches of fill of material to Reed it back to 16 where it was that's what where where it was thank you Lisa do you understand the one inch is the point at which it would register on a survey so if it's an inch or less there has been no change it's NE we call it negligible negligible everything is trial and error this is going to be trial everybody's you know we all neighbors everybody's going to be on the honor System that they're doing what they say they're gonna do and uh and maybe you know the price on laser grading I mean it's not cheap okay so I don't know it comes with it comes with doing a ring it comes with part of the process so all you have to do is like we put it in the notice if you know we can figure something easy out yeah we'll we'll figure something easy out it's really just if you change your elevation and we don't want to send anybody back through the flood plane based on just re just replenishing Arena or even redoing your ring we don't want to send anybody back through well hold the phone hold the phone redoing a ring could be a whole another it could but simple calculations are less than a flood plane you know a pre-exist existing survey and Engineering calculations is less than the whole flood plane work okay can we move on to the where're on item Five Guys and we've got 20 something we we there's just one more yeah can we one more yes can we move on to the minor um oh perfect thank you okay so this um form is for minor engineering projects um this is not within a f ban um it's 500 square feet or less so if you're adding an addition adding a St a star um need to use the mic yeah slab driveway pathway bedroom addition yes um that's filling out the form so this second is it is um engineering plans um it's a survey but it's a site specific survey for that area so it's that 500 square feet and then 40 feet outside you could just do elevations on that particular area yes so it's called SP on your existing survey maybe just have them if you survey yeah but if you don't like we're just going to do it at that that area um but you will need an engineer to do the calculations um and then for a St for adding a stall into a barn you need an engineer to do calculations for what for the flood plane compensation but it's only going to be for that area so that's what we were saying it should be not as expensive give me an example of not expensive because I should be able I mean if I've already raised my okay so my barn I raised it however however many feet I had to raise it to be above flood plane and it's up there and I've got a little Mound and I want to add another stall the side here you're telling me I have to get a whole I have to get that engineered why I've already I've already done the engineering I've already done the FDA on it I I've already I've already done the work and I'm not building a stall just randomly out in the middle of my field I'm building a stall an addition to a barn that's already been permitted engineered all that stuff are you are you um changing the grade changing the grade yeah no nobody would be it's it's the same grade you're adding a stall to a building yeah just to for your situation that's why I don't not my situation or plenty of that situ that's why on the uh under the calculations part we did a calculation on here that would tell you how much you would need you could just do a sale or a small retention area if you were adding say a driveway or a new barn expansion up to that 500 square feet it's calculated right here so it tells you how much storage you need so you don't really need an engineer to calculate that it's on it's on here you're putting a BM around or just small whale it doesn't make any I'm sorry I have the thing with the burn it's not a burn no it would be to compensate for the uh the loss of storage for the flood plane to keep you out of FEMA trouble okay that's great if you're in a development and you live next to 50 other houses but we live on two five 10 20 acre Parcels so it doesn't make sense for us yeah it it just doesn't make sense I mean I get if you're building a whole another structure but if you're adding a stall onto the end of a barn you've already I mean my Barn's completely permitted it doesn't have to be under EG rules but it's completely permitted okay just because I was running for counsel and I knew somebody called me in for something so I fig I might as well pay the extra money and get the permit and not be able to have them tear down my $100,000 Barn so if I want to add a stall I have a a concrete pad around the out wash racks if I want to add a stall onto that wash rack where that wash rack is I should be able to do that it's already imp another washack on I think I think you're comparing apples and oranges we're talking you have a barn that has four delineated wall or walls and you want to add 500 square feet to it that does not exist you're talking about you have a wash rack you want to put a stall on top of that wash rack that concrete slab has already been comp which effectively is another stall out on the other side of that the concrete why why can't I do that why but you are going to have to bring in fill you're G to have to you would change you would change the grade of you would have to change the grade because most properties the barn the property doesn't just keep going off into it slopes down back to the Natural grade and if you're going to extend that out then you're going to have to make up for that loss of water St I don't know what the solution is but I mean there are a beevy of agricultural exemptions that exist within state law that we have to figure out how how to address but flood plane requirements is not one of them that is specifically spelled out in the agricultural section of the Florida statute flood plane requirements are not exempt from any agricultural period And I mean if we we're we are the attempt of this is TR right the attempt of this is to try to make things a lot easier when I spoke to the woman from FEMA the first words out of her mouth is if you talk to somebody directly with FEMA they don't care what you're building you require a permit and I said well that's not going to work for us and she said well as long as it's within an inch and you're not going you know filling in your entire yard because I could take you to properties right now in this town who the neighbors just added a stall and now the next door neighbor can't even live in their mother-in-law's quarters because their entire backyard is underwater created by one resident I could take you to other places that they're Pro I mean it's it's ridiculous and it's it's you know it sounds like 500 squ F feet isn't a lot it's not the 10 acre Parcels that are the problem it's the 1 acre Parcels it's the Los Angeles drives it's the San Diegos it's the 24th courts it's the 25th courts it's all these small roads with these small properties that are building a 500 foot shed or 500 foot whatever are now causing flooding in their next door neighbor property and there's nothing we can do about okay so I think that the goal here is 500 square feet on five acres or more everybody leave us alone cuz this 500 F feet is something I asked them to go do I originally said 400 square fet why did I say 400 square fet 400 square feet is the size of your basic garage that you could put your put your tractor in if you had a piece of vacant property because people are going to need something on a vacant piece of property they shouldn't have to do a flood plane so just so everybody knows the 500 is supposed to be on 5 Acres or more and you shouldn't have to do almost anything and when they're talking about build a Swale I hear you think about swes and you know um Suburban communities but all they're saying is lower the land for 100 square feet oh hold the phone so you just said vacant land somebody wants to put in a garage and they're not gonna have to do an FDA I'm trying to get it we're trying to get it that somebody could do something like have a shed on their property to they already need to have an existing residence on their property if you not vacant land and I'm gonna here I am I'm gonna do what I want to do well if I may add something to it because I remember how this came about few times when we started permitting I think it's more about residences residences and obviously you need a primary structure before you out the garage but we had we had uh couple applicants they want to out bedroom Edition or expanded expanded master bathroom and it was a 300 400 uh Square fet addition to the house that yes changes changes the Imp perview areas so we didn't want to start the land Land Development or FTA process and drag them through months of review when when this really does not affect um drainage that much and again 500 square feet is a significant uh square footage is over again 400 sareet is toour garage so 500 cqu is quite a bit and we were just trying to avoid the Land Development permitting and FDA permitting on those small addition or if somebody does want to add a a storage garage or storage building that's going to bring the field but it's going to be less than 500 square feet so we wouldn't have to go through that process yeah I think maybe that we just hit on something here in all this roundabout conversation which is this may actually require two different delineations of what a minor project is okay and the first is what you're talking about a building project you are building a structure like a garage or or or whatever and the second is I'm putting a runin shed out in the field for My Horses okay that should not require any engineer or any NG FDA you put up four posts you slap some metal across the top of it and maybe some boards around it if you want it and you have a shelter for your animals that is what we that are fighting for the agricultural community are talking about as something that should not require an FDA that does not require an FDA perfect a 500 square foot what if I want to put in a 500 square foot running shed for my cows I want to put up a giant H bar for my cows this will have no flooring and it's just a running sh so so you're not changing anything as far as the the the great I'm not putting any fling on my stall either so I can put the stall on the end of my bar okay all right so I think maybe this needs to be yeah two separate things an agricultural Improvement that's more of like a waiver kind and talk about pole you know that kind and then one actual building structure that's we that's why we bring these things forward okay great yeah okay we not we need to do more work on this and I also would like to just say there's lots of people here who have sheds on their vacant property that they keep their farm equipment I get that you know and so that shouldn't have to go through Land Development either they don't normally have concrete floors right exactly do we have public comment on this Missi Miss sui oh Cassie sui so I had the opportunity to sit um with a room of our engineers and they are Academia and they are way up here with their Academia they know what they're talking about I am like you I'm down here okay and we and a meeting which should have taken a half hour took three hours because they kept circling back and not answering the question but they were in their respect so we need to address the FEMA 50% rule which would qualify for a bathroom or any renovation to a building which has an existing wall of the primary structure and it's less than 50% of the Improvement of the land so substantial non-substantial improvements in the 50% rule does apply um the other thing is South Florida Water Management has exemptions in their Erp for agricultural buildings that needs to be addressed because I hear all throughout the things as well that oh you got to follow South Florida Water Management if it's agriculture you're exempt um the other thing I wanted to mention was um we talked about our lobbyist who we got paid and this was a couple weeks back and there is small developments definition and and large developments we fit into the large development category by virtually of just the land size but we do not fit the large development category so that I brought that up at the workshop or whatever and the the lobbyist got up and he said that would be something that he could address and work through FEMA to perhaps change the definition of our town if we become small developments there are a lot of exemptions that apply is some of the requirements they suggest that a topographic um uh elevation plan is beneficial but it's not required in small development so there's a lot of more beneficials there's also um it talks about in the FEMA book how they uh you can provide exemption for small projects small buildings as well and those would apply in the small development category so I would think that if we're are paying a lobbyist maybe now that he brought it up that's something that he could do and he was very interested in doing it and since we are rural designated Town it would be good to do the other problem I had is we talk about a permit for a property that's in a nonf flood plane area and you want to do these applications for projects in properties that aren't in non-f flood planes which means they're not required to have a FEMA so if they're bonafied egg why are you requiring them to have all these permits and buildings and all these other things if it's a Bonafide egg and buildings in in agriculture are exempt and you're just saying they are in a nonf flood plane area so they don't fall in it based on the map of FEMA so I didn't understand that but I really would suggest that we think about the 50% rle substantial non-substantial Improvement that will address some of the things like the bathrooms um and then um make sure that we can have some type of proper defining of our town because if we are put in because one more quick thing small developments or small projects on isolated Lots which is what we basically are large developments are 50 Lots which is a subdivision or five acres or more so just by the virtue of our land size we're thrust into that other category and extensive uh regulations so I would pursue that as well and you might answer a lot of that thanks more comment and then we'll move on Miss sish oh I'm sorry okay I'm Virginia Standish 15410 North Road if my neighbor calls you Town staff and ask you what's going on on my property feel free to give them my number you want to know what's going on in your neighbor's property go over there and ask them but no we're afraid we got to fill out paperwork we went through the nonsense with the invasives cuz oh my gosh people don't know what you're cutting and you have fell for it and I'm sitting here listening to this thank you Cassie for clarifying what I don't think staff has really checked with FEMA um even though they say they've checked with FEMA I I would like that to be presented to to counsil so you can read for yourself what it says and then you can say no we get a lot of information here presented vaguely and you don't get the facts you don't get all the charts you don't get all the information um as an example you're talking about fees someone put in an application from F property there's not supposed to be a fee wait a minute it's $250 now to review to see if you do need a FL flood plane permit so like we hear one thing and then it's another and I urge you Extreme Caution here a lot of the only thing left in Wellington are the uber wealthy and this is what you're forcing everyone to do you're moving out the little Farmers we are not Wellington perhaps we have too many people here on staff from Wellington and you have small properties here you have large properties here and I'm tired of hearing all the little properties so now everyone's going to have to be impacted we are various sizes and as you said let's have variet let's have variation um usually this was a civil lawsuit if someone flooded out your property the town would say that's a civil lawsuit you have to handle it I do applaud them for trying to get things under control but this is beyond ridiculous the direction this is going it's like you're going down the yellow brick road to see The Wizard of Oz and the wizard ain't there thank you madam mayor we did have the FEMA person at our last Workshop I do wish to ask Miss sui and miss tropey and Mr Galant to meet with that person and our lobbyists to go through everything that was just stated in those two rounds of public comments because we do want it to be easier for everyone and the only thing that is not exempt in Bonafide a is the flood plane requirements so if there is a way that we can change our definitions in the code and we have said this to our Engineers time and again if we can change those definitions we wish to change those definitions furthermore there are 600 small non-conforming Lots here and they cause the drainage problem they are not the folks that we are trying to exemp from fdas and I think that this conversation is to save people money save people time and do less flood plane development applications and more you know just let us snow and waivers and by the way there is nothing I would like more to be able to have neighbor and neighbor handle things with each other but we can't give neighbor numbers out unless somebody tells us that they want us to be the old 411 um you know it's just not what we can do but I definitely think it would be great for neighbors neighbors to work it out as opposed to to us that would save a lot so clearly we have a lot more work to on a lot more Phyllis is there something you need to say I just want to say that since 2017 and the FEMA flood plane regulations I I I think there's a lot of neighbors that I I know of a lot of folks that their neighbor went to town bought a property they came in new they put in their horse farm and they're flooding everybody and they did everything to the town code they did everything to the FEMA code and they're flooding all their neighbors so I think that is what FEMA needs to know that it ain't working in our town their program so and and they're still flooded years later and there's nothing that you guys are doing to relieve these other neighbors I think we're getting rid of the burms I mean that wasn't discussed but the birming that's been going on creates a lot of the closed ditches well the historic ditches that were in in the right of section 130 if you look through there there there is nothing in there that says that you must have a burm that verbage was taken out what we try to do again is is is what you all asked us to do is to only do have this town only do what's mandated what we can't control but I what's missing is our designation our rural designation I think that that's not the first time I've heard Cassie and Virginia with that we were thrown into a classification because in ' 06 we became a down wooo and here we are today so you know we have to tweet this missed something understandable because I was part of that when I was an elected official back in the days after Francis Wilma and Jean when there was no flood insurance and we are standing there as elected officials what do we do now and I'm not saying that you know what's happened today is ex exactly perfect or the right thing to do but all of us agreed to it back in the day because people were losing their insurance people were not able to fix their homes and so we embraced this flood plane or but that was one siiz that was one siiz fits all we checked on that right to see if there was some deviation but it doesn't but it doesn't but and and and that may be but we're we're mandated so what do we do we all of us here what do what do we do we've been we've been mandated we've been mandated with water quality requirements since the last time we spoke to you there was nothing that mandated it and now we have a Florida administrative code from the last session that's mandating it we didn't create this I mean this is it this is this is happening we thought back in the day that this was the right thing to do because we were told if you don't do it then the State of Florida the companies are leaving and we have and we don't don't have the ability to have insurance that's what was told to us back in the day and I know there was some of you that were a part of this back in the day when this was all being discussed so what we're trying to all we're trying to do is to streamline as best we can and change the things that we can change which section 130 we can all right and that's what we did thank you for so we just need a little Direction then I think you got a lot of Direction tonight you thank you for what you've done so far I I recognize that you did have done a lot and we certainly do appreciate that um but just know that if we don't move forward on anything tonight like forward any further I think you got a lot of Direction tonight then we're another month behind to First reading is all I'm saying so if we can't move the changes to section 130 then we're we're it'll be another mon I don't think anybody had a pro consensus does anybody have a problem with the changes to 130 you're good you're good with them I'm good that it's all about perimeter but it makes it more permissive is what is what I understand so it's it's better we had every storm in there and that was not necessary so that we took it out okay so I think that you have a consensus that we can move forward with the first reading of the changes to 130 but that the rest of these documents need work and a re EST from the town manager that you meet with a couple of concerned citizens and yourself and Mr Gant and try to see and hopefully the can get that FEMA representative on the phone again and try I'd really like to move on we've got 21 things unless it's something really critical I'd really like to move on because we have some things we absolutely have to get through tonight um okay thank you I saw another public comment in is it absolutely critical or was your the issue covered real quick all I to is you have to come up to the microphone to say it I'm sorry okay 10 seconds we'll give you 10 [Laughter] seconds all I know is that I'm going to need a degree and quit my job in order to understand and abide all these rules thank God for the Virginia and the Cassis because otherwise and I'm intelligent I mean I have a BS three Bas a couple AAS and I still don't know what any of you are talking about and I thank God for those two cuz otherwise I would be totally clueless thank you simplifi thank you for your comment okay we have a item number seven we have a presentation from Red speed they can do a three minute or they can do however long you want just you know they can pick up can you talk Mr V good evening everyone Madame mayor council members Town manager City staff thank you for having me you know I grew up uh not far from the higho racetrack and I learned more about horses and Arenas today in these two hours than I ever have in all the years I lived in haia my name is David DEA I'm the vice president of client relations for red speed um I do have a presentation but seeing how um you have a very long agenda I think I'm going to go through it really quick but is there a clicker for me or no just next slide yep okay uh prior to joining rede I just wanted to let you all know I retired recently from the city of Miami Beach I was the assistant chief of operations for the police department there I did almost 29 years and so transitioning over into the private sector but specifically into red speed where we're dealing with Public Safety and slowing cars down in school zones was a very easy transition for me personally uh because I always placed um significant amount of emphasis on traffic enforcement I think it saves lives so if we can start with the first slide I want to go through these really quick these first ones because I want to get to a video I have a three minute video that really covers pretty much the entirety of the um presentation that I would have done today this first slide just tells us we're failing in terms of speeding in school zones we're one of the worst in the nation in terms of uh in terms of the speeds in in school zone we ranked number one in the country as having the most dangerous school zones that's throughout the entire state next slide ah beautiful thank you where do I point all right that's good you got it uh these are just a couple highlights but I'm going to skip them because you're going to get get these same highlights in the video this is a little bit about red speed what we do basically I think we just what you need to know about red speed the most important thing for you all to take away from tonight is zero that's what it's going to cost the town in order to put these systems up zero we do everything from start to finish this is just a little bit of our company uh right now oh the te kind of went off but these are some of the uh cities we have there's a lot more we have manity County we've got the city of Tallahassee um we're on the agenda for Wellington um Palm Bay Beach is a neighbor of yours they're uh in the pipeline as well we're we we just broke uh 20 cities throughout uh throughout the state uh just last week and we have about 70% of the market share in Georgia we've been doing this in Georgia they have a very almost an exact same Statute in Georgia they've had it for about six or seven years there so we've been in Georgia for for that time period uh we are a uh endorsed by the Florida police Chiefs Association that was a that was a really big deal for us uh it was a big vetting process there are a couple of other uh vendors in this space so to get the endorsement of the Florida police Chiefs Association was was very big and we partner with flock uh which is a leader in the alpr LPR um realm uh the police departments love this because we're able to leverage the camera system to have this additional function which is to be able to have LPR in the school zone so if for example there's a stolen car or there's somebody that has a restraining order that shouldn't be there that would immediately get transmitted over to the Palm Beach Sheriff's Office so that is that is a a big deal uh this is just a little bit about the features of the cameras they're very good cameras uh our benefits we improve obviously uh the safety in the school zones um it does provide Revenue to the town for Public Safety initiatives uh and there is absolutely no cost to the city as I mentioned before for the police departments this is really big this is um one of the things I really like about this the officers no longer have to be in the school zones riding tickets they can be redeployed to other areas that may be more pressing so as a as an officer when I would do speed enforcement in school zones if I could I could stop two maybe three and and the captain back there could probably attest to this more than that and you're getting a little bit too dangerous come on I haven't tiet in 15 years I actually got made fun of because I got made fun of because even as assistant chief my guys would tell me stop pulling cars over because I used I just I love traffic um but you know two or three more than that is not safe as a as a police officer to do it by yourself with the cameras there's no need for the police officer the camera's going to pick up every car that's speeding through that uh through that uh that zone and issue the violation uh this is the breakdown just so you know it's a civil fine it's $100 uh $60 comes to the municipality to the town from there is where uh red speed gets its its portion which is $21 so you all would get $39 for every paid violation $20 goes to the state general fund $12 goes to the Palm Beach school district for security and improvements around the schools $3 goes to the FDLE criminal standards and training fund and then $5 goes to the uh school crossing guard program uh so as you can see they really uh the legislature really did a great job in dividing up the $100 into really uh things that are that that are sorely needed that FDLE criminal justice and training fund I know for a fact is nearly broke so that is a fund that uh that helps train police officers it's it's very much needed uh like I said at the beginning we we do everything from the initial permitting speed studies uh as a matter of fact we just got hot off the presses I don't know if you all received an email from the town manager in terms of the speed study that we just recently uh conducted in the one school that uh that you had here uh in the one day survey let me open this up because I want to give you the exact number uh going more than 11 miles per hour which is our threshold you had 784 cars that were going faster than the 11 miles over the speed limit during school hours so it's during the day the law allows for 30 minutes before school starts 30 minutes after school starts and throughout the entire day so what we do is we program the cameras at the beginning of the school day when the flashers are on if it's a you guys are 20 M hour here so if it's 20 M hour they're getting cited at 31 miles per hour if it then jumps to 30 miles per hour during the day they're getting cited at 41 miles per hour so bless you the law um says 10 miles per hour but we always uh we give the one mile per hour because anyone that's laser and cert and radar certified will tell you that the equipment has a plus or minus one mile per hour um you know amount that we we we give tolerance thank you you k um so yeah you all had 784 at uh L lahache Groves Elementary along okobe road which is significant uh we won't really consider placing a system uh unless you hit about that 200 per day so the fact that you're at 784 is is is pretty and you know we we we we you qualifi we did the study also at question excuse me once this thing starts working I'm sorry say that again presumably once this starts working and people start receiving $100 tickets for doing this 50% of them 75% of them will stop doing that because they know that they'll get caught um so then our percentages go down is there a time when you abandon the project or once it's in it's it's so we've seen we've seen in Georgia like I said we've been there for about six years we've got over 70 agencies More than 70% of the share of of um of these equip of this equipment in Georgia they see numbers 90 95% reduction from that initial study to a year later but we have not taken our our equipment down there's still that 5 to 10% that um that violates and so we continue I mean you know the the idea that's great 90 95% reduction in speed in school zone is fantastic but there's still 5 to 10 that needs to be addressed um and so and and another part of that which is I think important we saw that we see that only about 2% of those that get one of these citations actually request a hearing so most people will pay it and why do they pay it because number one it's only $100 number two there's no points on your license if you pay this civil infraction there's nothing no impact on your insurance or on your driver's license uh now if they ignore it completely it then turns into a uniform traffic citation which would then go through the regular Clerk of the courts process for for Palm Beach County so at that point if they don't do anything with that as well they could eventually get a suspended license but 15 miles per hour in a school zone first of all is double the fine of the regular 15 miles over I don't know about here in Palm Beach County but I know in date County that's about $460 for 15 miles over so I think when they start seeing that that's why we're getting that 90 6 97 98% um payment rate so okay this is uh well what happened to the did I skip over the video that I needed please hold if not not a big deal because I pretty much did it okay it's not there huh I am the video all right so public awareness campaign once um once we sign a uh a contract with the client we assist with all of the public awareness that that uh has to go into this the legislature mandates an educational campaign and a 30-day warning period uh once the cameras are operational so we assist with that part of that is to let me see if this will start is to produce we produce a uh Public Service Announcement and you know either the town manager or the PBSO rep or the mayor and Council members any of you all we can pay this to however you like have been proven to reduce speeds and improve safety around our schools our speed enforcement cameras are located at our public schools and at guler Preparatory Academy True North Academy and RAM bam Day School at Temple betham we want our students and our families to know that we are watching out for our children and we're doing that in all aspects while they're out of school coming to school and inside drivers will be notified with signs that photo enforcement is being utilized in an area school cameras are active whenever school is in session enforcement hours begin 30 minutes before the start of the school day and continue until 30 minutes after school ends drivers traveling in excess of 10 miles per hour will be cited the notice of violation is a civil penalty it will be mailed to the vehicle's registered owner and it includes a $100 f the driver's license will not incur any points and it won't affect your insurance Ider the village of Pine Crest will retain 60% of the funds to administer the speed detection system program it's just going to build a safer and better Village of Pine Crest be part of the team that's going to make this community bigger better and safer the pine crft Police Department encourages all drivers especially in school zones to put down their phone pay attention to the roadways and be a responsible driver so that's just an example of the Public Services announcement that we produce and put together in conjunction working with the municipality or the town in this case we can tailor it however you want this particular City decided to incorporate their principles of their schools we can do that we have clients that strictly the chief of police does the uh does the video however we we can tailor to however the town uh however the town wants timeline for installation once a contract is signed um typically as a conservative measure we say 60 to 90 days um from when permits are issued usually power is the FPL is the one that sometimes takes a little little long uh yeah so we say 60 to 90 days just to be conservative but we we we uh if we get good cooperation from FPL then it's it's a lot sooner than that uh and then proven results just as I mentioned a bit ago 90% decrease in speed violations compared to the initial speed study uh 25% year continued year-on-year improvements and then repeat offenders only make up they make up less than 10% of uh of the violators and and all these were based on on Georgia's uh our biggest clients in Georgia alfaretta gwick County Henry County and Roswell you see the numbers there they're very impressive uh and so we're very proud of the impact that we're having in in Georgia I am not Greg Parks but uh I am happy to answer any questions that you might have I tried to do that really quick for you all thank you you're welcome so my question is um when you started your presentation I started to think about the red light cameras and how um they've been fought and so how do you H how has your how has the community reacted I guess to your to your C yes ma'am um very favorably in comparison to the red light cameras they're very different laws and they're very different issues uh in terms of the red light camera and I can speak with experience because I I began the red light camera program in Miami Beach and I ran it for for a while as a lieutenant that requires um when you're reviewing the violation there are many points that have to be met in order to issue the violation and even that can be questioned and argued did you completely stop is it a did you roll through it was it a right on red there's a lot of variables the legislator did a really good job in building in a rebuttable presumption with this law in that as long as the equipment is functioning and then what we do at Red speed is um the the lasers Andor Radars that we use uh are calibrated once a year as required by law and then the law also requires that we do system checks once a month but we do them every day we do at the beginning of the day and at the end of the day to make sure that our equipment is working as long as those things are working then um you were speeding if it caught you speeding so there's really no way to rebut that you do that remotely you check your equipment it's checked yes yes ma'am it's checked uh on site it's checked at the location of the oh you actually send people out every day no no ma'am I'm sorry the equipment does it automatically yes ma'am yes ma'am I apologize than do daycares Andor private schools count for your cameras it has to be in a designated school zone so if they don't have a designated school zone They don't qualify under the law however um depending because dayc carees I don't think you can but certain private schools might be able to if they ask for it however I will tell you my experience at least in date County and Broward County a lot of private schools don't want to ask for it because we've offered to assist okay what about a wring school if it's a designated school zone we can put the camera but it has to be a designated School Zone by the county oh by the county yes ma'am the county has to actually designate it a school zone I'm trying yeah trust me we would love to be able to but yeah no it has it has to be a designated school zone uh that the county Stripes lighting Etc yes ma'am all right thank you you're welcome how is World B Elementary that school zone starts in our town or right on the edge of town so it does yeah I don't believe it's actually I don't believe it's actually in your jurisdiction however our study did do it we we did the study St and it was yeah it was it was way worse than way worse than you all I mean they had they had almost 1,00 violators in that one day I I spoke to Mr Parks if you don't mind as a point of information and I am told that they are working with Royal Palm Beach as well and I'm also told that they are working with Palm Beach County red speed um and I did not know that they were working in t Wellington until after they started working with us we um are looking at the um ordinances and so on from Plantation just to share it with you so my point is that the Royal Palm school zone which sends the heavy traffic into town um will be subject on both sides but we would only get the revenue from the one that lock we would only get our side yes and and we have a similar situation in date County where I've I have a road um that half the road the Northbound side is Miami dat County jurisdiction and the southbound side is Pine Crest but I have cameras on both because we have contracts with both now yes the respective um you know fines collected goes to each one of those different entities but of course our our goal is to slow down the traffic and to make it safe for the kids so we're we're we're we're we're getting what we're trying to get to which is to slow cars down on both sides while we work with the two different entities which is kind of what we'd like to do uh with royal palm uh once they come on board and for Wellington I know that uh their first reading of the ordinance is coming up in their next whenever they I think it's next week uh or this week okay commiss meeting any public comment on this F no uh Captain Turner would like to say something troublemaker you have to go up to the microphone sir I ask him to explain the process if it's fought because it's gonna have to go to your magistrate so I just want you to understand the process that you're gonna have to go through if anyone decides to fight it thank you for peeing that up Captain I know you're the magistrate does cost us money well you can you the law allows you to up to $250 in administrative cost for those hearings so yes the initial violation is a civil civil fine so it would be treated much like a code violation for you all uh we would that that is one of the requirements from the town you'd have to have a magistrate that's going to be able to hear those but like I said only 2% of people that receive these violations actually request a hearing so it should be minimal uh but you can charge an administrative fee of whatever you think is appropriate in order to collect that money now if go once they go to that um administrative hearing uh if they're adjudicated and they're found guilty then they have to pay whatever the administrative cost is plus the $100 fine um obviously if it's dismissed then they don't pay anything and if they do nothing then it gets converted into a uniform traffic citation now the other op the other responsibility for for the client is the review so are if a a violation is captured we have two sets of eyes within our um company that reviews them to make sure that everything matches up we have to run the tag we have to get the owner vehicle information Etc then it goes into our red check system where in speaking with Palm Beach Sheriff's Office it would it would be somebody from the from PBSO that would have to go in and say okay that that's a violation and I always our system is cop proof it's a red button and a green button I can say that but it's cck proof um yeah yeah yeah yeah don't have a yellow tag anymore doesn't have a yellow tag anymore yeah yellow right so yes that's that is the minimal uh responsibility of of the Town it would be the magistrate uh but again you know you can you can set that administrative cost that would be added to the Civil that would be added to the $100 okay so I have a question for Glen so the magistrate person we have now just deals with real estate mostly and and Municipal law and so is this are we gonna have to have a different magistrate person to do traffic crime no you can have it and you schedule at the same time as your other hearings you can be efficient and do it all together use the same person so you don't see any issue with that no and we can pass the fee on so I'm guessing if they got the ticket and they get proven guilty then we pass the fees on if the magistrate says it's kind of like court cost right you go to court you fight a ticket you're G to pay the ticket plus court cost there's a price to pay for fighting tickets and I have a question for Captain Turner if that's okay go right ahead um you had presented us with the camera yes with and but that costs money well what he's talking about the LPR cameras the the camera he uses feeds into our LPR system so yes if he's putting these cameras on okobe Boulevard then we don't need our systems it's the same system they tie you to each other they run cars and for you the only thing is it's not a mobile system the one we were talking to you about was a mobile system so we could put it on different roadways if there were crimes that are happening certain areas we can move it this one's stationary it doesn't move well I'm thinking it's going to detour a lot of traffic off okobi Boulevard so well people I'm thinking tickets but it shouldn't people aren't going to be out there and well you you'll put it out or they'll get it through the meeting that it's running tags continuously if the word gets out on that yes but criminals are not smart that's why they keep getting caught so people will use the roadways and a lot of criminals that use these roadways and come up here to steal cars or do whatever are from this area but I think a lot of our offenders on okobe Boulevard are Speeders or I don't want to call them criminals because I think they're mostly folks just using the road to come and go and they lose track of their speed or they're in a hurry and they're speeding through our town I think that would be a great dorant for those folks yeah so um Sheriff has no issue working with this company at all you guys are already working with them well like I said they're they're working on multiple contracts with different areas here the contracts are between you and them yes we we will work with them because it's it's makes things a lot easier us because now we'll have a handful of more cameras just depending on where the school zones are in the multiple you know if they have Royal Palm Wellington that we can access now that we didn't have access to before thank you thank you okay so what I'm looking for here guys is a consens us to move forward direct yes yes okay it's a unanimous yes it'll be on October 1st thank you so much you have a great night expect for the course education thank you you're wel you know you didn't actually ask about the annual revenues or anything like that okay we did math yeah right okay I mean it's it's gonna be obviously a significant initial Revenue but then we all drop marketly so it'll be kind of like right Christmas and then it'll just be some well it's the price of traffic coming but I think it's the traffic appealing to me is yeah exactly is is the traffic and we will now have something to fund maintaining all of the traffic on OKO which we did not have the funding for before right and so that money that we do generate from that has to be used for Public Safety so it could be used though for maintaining like all the traffic signs all the traffic signs and so on flashers well actually I think we could probably if we have enough money that comes in from it look at some of those flasher crossings that we had talked about for the UMD year oh but those are those yeah we can defray some of that yeah we can have money for it kind of like getting arpa money um okay so we're on to item number eight which is our first thank you so much budg public hearing well what we were going to do is uh present a very brief overview of the the budget um and you all have been to several meetings at this point in time um you have done a lot of a lot of work thank you Captain Turner excuse me oh okay um you may recall that uh preliminarily uh you had adopted a trim rate for the millage of four Mills um and a um a solid waste assessment of $450 and a road and drainage assessment of $250 um now there was um an error made in transmitting the road and drainage information to the the county and it went out at $200 instead of $250 um but through the work that you all put in and the direction that you have given us um right now what you are presented with is a balanced budget um and it calls for a uh Solid Waste assessment at $450 um a road and drainage assessment at $200 um and a millage rate at three Ms you have the ability um to go back if you want to re reassess um the road and drainage um you can't pass it for more than $200 because of the notice that was provided tonight but if you wanted to revisit any of that there is a mechanism through which um we could Ren notice everyone um and because of the limitations on the timing there would have to be um the town actually going forward with the collection process it is a collection process that is possible but if you all stay at the direction that you gave us on um August 22nd at $200 um there's not a need to Ren notice um the uh uh the assessment for the storm water um as I said the uh the general fund um is balanced at uh $4.3 million it calls for uh transfers to Road and drainage of $595,000 and $394,000 to Capital um the road and drainage fund is balanced at 2432 million and that's supported we'd always talked about a $600,000 gap that's supported by um the previously mentioned $595,000 from the general fund uh the capital program is balanced at um 2,79 ,000 and you all um decided to uh postpone um $100,000 that had been designated for a traffic cing Grant um and also $75,000 uh for a conversion of this building into an uh interim EOC um so th that's the direction that you had previously given us with respect to to those things uh the solid waste fund is balanced at $720,000 you have received um a 93 page presentation um that you ready we're not particularly um uh given the time and everything we weren't going to go over unless you have questions but you are free to ask questions of Mr Wallace or myself on anything that is in there um but with those caveats my suggestion is that we move forward um to the the public hearings you have public hearings on your non abalum assessment for Road and drainage um that's the water control District's um Levy and you will uh briefly adjourn uh and then reconvene as the uh Board of Supervisors and be able to make that assessment you also have a final assessment of the solid waste um assessment scheduled when you come back and uh as yourselves as the Town Council um and then we have tenative millage rate um and tenative budget um for the uh the general fund and the the entire um budget that um will be subject to a second hearing that is scheduled for September 18th the September 18th date is the correct date for the second hearing it's so that it doesn't conflict with um school board and Palm Beach County so you can't have um those uh those hearings on the same date okay uh do I have any public comment on this yes Miss Harding well before you do what I would suggest is become the water district become the water Control District I was gonna do a public comment on after we become the water district so I was seeing if we have public comment on what you just said all right right so questions for you yeah the public comment was for item number eight unless you want to change it yeah it's for the RVs which is okay all right phis you had a question for Jeff before we adjourn where's the screw up where did the screw up happen um Mr Wallace made an error all right then I'm sorry one one short one that that's right it was late bottle late um and again not knowing what I don't know because I don't know what I don't know why would we be asking an outside vendor to transmit numbers because I'm I'm looking at it as hi this is uh shoot what's his name uh yeah uh Chris Wallace and we want per acre rate to be 175 because why does in the town do that because Mr Wallace and and his firm betics act as our finance department and as our finance director and so it would be a responsibility of the finance director to uh convey that information um to uh Palm Beach County okay so if we had an in-house Finance director that would be their job gotcha thank you yeah um I'd like to say that that night when everything was bouncing around like a a tennis ball on a tennis court um I walked out of here thinking that it was 200 you know and I don't I don't know whether he was transmitting telepathically to me or what but the future what I thought we were going to come forward with you know and I went went home and I I reworked all of the impacts that it would have on me and I oh yeah that's that's much better than you know the 250 there there there was a a second motion that revised um the direction that was given uh and Mr Mr Wallace is a you know standup guy and he absolutely understood that it was supposed to be $250 okay so analytics is going to give us 50 bucks in [Music] okay I'm resourcing the town council meeting does anybody need to take a potty break or anything for we all okay all right we adjourning as the dependent water Control District we're going to consider item number nine the approval of resolution 2024 dd5 did you want to read that for us Val a resolution of the board of super ERS of the lahache grow water Control District a dependent District of the town of lahat grow Florida relating to the provision of District services including water control maintenance and repair of drainage and roadways approving the assessment rate for district special assessments for the fiscal year beginning October 1 2024 imposing a district special assessment for the provision of District Services approving the assessment role providing for collection of the assessment pursuant to the uniform method of collection approving The District budget for fiscal year 2024 2025 to be adopted as part of the town's budget by the Town Council providing for conflicts providing for severability and providing for an effective date thank you okay Phyllis you had a question I'll make a motion okay any discussion of this before philes her motion just a note for the record I think it was placed at your um places that the um budget that you're adopting um there was a slight mixup between Pages 203 and 228 um and there is a new 203 and 228 that was placed there exactly the same numbers it just has to do with the the shading for this one to indicate that it's marod and drain Miss Harding did I hear you correctly and that you were holding your comment until the RV and and not here or that you wanted to do it here okay go ahead thank you sure they're kind of tied together you know with the budget increase in taxes and then not allowing me the two RV more than the two RVs and then all the fees that everybody's talking about and all the fees on the RVs and then the increase in the budget you guys are budgeting me out of this town I just want to go home and sit in a room and do nothing because my hands are so tied now I understand that you have to raise taxes actually not so upset about that but when you limit me operating my farm and my income then I can't pay those budget increases you understand that and this is the problem this is the economy for me and I think it's for everybody a lot of people in this town I mean raise here raise there take away take away how are we supposed to do it you know people think that because we're equestrians that it's no problem no what I do in season helps offset non-season in order to keep uh working like I said I work fulltime not in the horse field that's my second job I work full-time to in order to be able to operate and own my farm and I'm every year it's getting less and less achievable so I mean raise here don't take away from there or don't raise there and take away from there there's got to be a balance I mean I'm just getting priced out of this town and like Virginia said I think the little people here you're going to lose them all you're going to become Wellington Place that you don't want to be and that's what I I just don't know what to do anymore I really don't because I can't afford to live here anymore I didn't move here for this I didn't move to sit in my house and not move and not be able to do anything to have to get a permit for this to send in a request for that to have this measured to not have that measured to have my taxes increased to not be able to have a horse uh client come with a horse in an RV for six months to not have a groom to be told to build groom quarters or gm6 grooms in RV I thought we were trying to avoid that I'm it's just impossible I mean it's just getting hit from all sides and a person cannot be hit from all sides and survive that's thank you for your comment okay Phil Madam May yes goad just for the record yeah the $200 assessment rate and the three Mills has been in place since um 2018 we're not raising any so we're not raising them correct um I just wanted to put that on the record okay Phyllis you want to make a motion I'm going to make a motion to approve resolution 2024 DD 05 adopting the F final FY 2024 2025 non ADV valorum assessment rates uh budgets and assessment roles for roads and drainage of uh should I put in the amount 20 second all in favor I I opposed I okay passes four to one your first okay we are now going to adjourn as the water Control District at the dependent district and reconvene as the Town Council and we're on to item number 10 item number 10 B would you please read the resolution a resolution of the Town Council of the town of lahache girl Florida relating to the provision of residential solid waste collection services in the town of lahache grov Florida approving the assessment rate for residential solid waste collection services for fiscal year 2024 2025 imposing a residential solid waste collection assessment against assessed property located within the town of lahache grov for the fiscal year beginning on October 1 2024 approving the assessment role providing for collection of the assessments pursuant to the uniform method of collection providing for severability providing for conflicts and providing for an effective date okay any public comment on this no okay any discussion Robert yeah I know it says in here they want to raise it $50 what does $50 equal 70,000 BR SC or um yeah I think that that's about right 7,000 I think it's 67,000 in change so I I don't think we should be raising the the one thing that all of our Homestead of people have is a garbage can you know all the the elder population and we are um you know collecting franchise fees that can offset that but I'm never going to come complain about something without a solution so Mr Gant 25th that Culver that we have in the capital Improvement for $80,000 the lower a 24 inch aluminum culbert we could do that inhouse significantly less than that that's the wide in the entire intersection not just replace a culber what's that that's the wide in the entire intersection not just replace the cber so it's adding how many feet oh yeah probably 40 feet you're adding 40 feet it'll be a 40 foot wide total right now like it's like 18 that piece of 40 foot 24 in aluminum or Culver because you're going to reuse the one that's there it's brand new I don't know where where we're going here he's trying to he's trying to negotiate get you to pull that 80 grand off Capital do it in house for like 10 20 grand the the pipe's going to be 20 grand no no it's not a 40 foot it's 24 inch it's not the monsters we're not going 24 we're putting a bigger pipe as well I don't think you should touch that until you get the resiliency study back to see if that's a critical infrastructure I mean I'd like to see a delay that because resiliency has that in the plan the elevation and the pipe side because I didn't when no yeah I understand that but you know we're getting complaints from the residents who live there if they can't make around those Corners school buses can't turn I mean if we have a school bus which would you rather do save $80,000 or watch a school bus overturn into a canal we're getting complaints from theing that pipe is that is not a canal that's not a canal that's a retention area is by point the 205 yeah that area is not connecting it's not a main Canal like G West G East North Road that's my point if you look at the elevation of that it's dry most of the time so that that's my consideration is in the resiliency study that should be one of the items that he's looking at because it's different that you got we got to agree that's a unique situation we don't have many East West yeah that Canal goes 25th to G West and runs up to North roow yeah that's drains a lot of properties and right now the water has to go backwards through the system in order to get to collect and Canal so the water in that area gets held longer than any other area in the town which retention Is Not a Bad Thing unless property out is you have discussion yeah okay well I think we I've got some discussion I want to bring up are you done Robert yeah with your counter proposal but I think we should keep it at $400 there's no reason to hit these residents for another 50 bucks a c and so so let's talk about the reality of the situation we're not talking about hitting them for some we're talking about bringing it back up to a rate that it was at previously so we're not talking about that we're talking about no longer subsidizing Something That We're subsidizing to the tune of $170,000 a year regardless of where the money comes from because that franchise free money could could be being used to do maintenance on the roads that are being damaged by the tra trash trucks and things that are coming through the town particularly the ones that are carrying the heavy dumpsters so we're not asking they're not asking for um anything but returning the status quo I think it's easy to subsidize and to say that you're going to subsidize people's garbage when you have $2 million worth of federal money come into town and you know that's that's an easy time to subsidize stuff but we don't have that now and we're running tight and I I just think that depleting funds and and I'm not insinuating so don't get defensive depleting funds to the point of being just at reserves is a dangerous situation not just for this year but for future years um and that we're in a situation where we have to build up reserves we've got hurricanes we've got weather incidents we've got unknowns that happen we've got Road failures and I don't I don't we're not asking anybody to do anything but pay for a service that they receive it's not it's not a tax that's being raised it's paying for a service that receive um with that being said I do think we could do a better job and Coastal could do a better job of making sure that people that should have dumpsters and be paying those franchise P fees are paying them and by that I mean I drive around and see a lot of nurseries with a trash can out front of them several um and or with four trash cans out front of them um having that debris in there and that's not that creates an unfair burden to the other to the rest of the Town residents I think that if we can get a better handle on that situation then we can talk about maybe reducing the cost and maybe even reducing the cost of our contract in the future so my personal opinion is that we should go for the um $450 um fee to bring it which we will by the way still be subsidizing I believe somewhere between about6 and $10,000 the garbage fee I think that was the final number that we came up with prin I think there is a subsidy so it will still be being subsidized by the town just not to the degree that it is and perhaps some of those franchise fees can be used to repair the damage on North Road that is almost impassible um with the size of the potholes in it and other damage that's being done by these large trucks that are driving on our our properties our roads um so that's my opinion um if you'd like to bring it for a motion phis I make a motion to approve resolution final FY 2024 2025 non aurum assess why is this oh assessment rate budgets and assessment roles for residential solid waste collection Services of $450 all in favor I I opposed n passes four to one okay we're looking at item number 11 Valerie could you please read it for me a resolution of the town of lahache Groves Florida establishing the tenant of millage for the town of lahache Groves Florida pursuant to the budget summary for the fiscal year 2024 2025 in accordance with chapter 200 Florida Statutes as amended setting forth the date time and place for the second and final public hearing to adopt the town's millage rate for the fiscal year 2024 2025 and directing publication of notice thereof providing for severability providing for conflict providing for an effective date thank you any public comment on this no okay any discussion before public comment uh we're okay okay do I have phis are you lit up to make a motion I am okay make your motion okay um there's two here you're doing 11 right now I I know but Village rate you're doing vill rate is the first one which is number 11 it's this one 20 2024 66 66 yeah I move to approve resolution 20246 adopting the T tenative millage rate for fiscal year 2024 2025 directing the advertisement for the second public hearing on September 18th 2024 of 3 mil second all in favor opposed passes five to zero and that by the way is a zero tax rate to the residents of lah GRS just so everybody's aware um May mayor by Florida Statutes require a public announcement regarding the millage rate and the tax increase over the the Town Council has adopted a tenative millage rate for the fiscal year 24 25 budget at 3.0 Mills which is an increase of 10.9% from the roll back millage rate of 2 7048 Mills and the second public hearing where the final budget and millage will be adopted except for September 18th 2024 here in the uh City Hall Town Hall in this room I guess at the 6 pm thank you okay we're moving on to item number where that Bruce was in our agenda that's a statement he statement basically here the it's in the resolution and it's also in the cover memorandum so look at the last the roll back right 230 yeah the last s thank you got it thank you sorry I was on the wrong and as a as a reminder um at the uh adoption hearing on the 18th um that millage rate uh to keep it at three uh needs a minimum of a four to one vote well you had a five to zero so is that good enough for you it's the it's the it's the adoption uh hearing that counts okay all right we're on to item number 12 valer could you please read it for us a resolution of the Town Council of the town of lock Rose Florida adopting a tenative budget for the fiscal year beginning October 1 2024 and ending September 30th 2025 setting forth the date time and place for the second public hearing for the adoption of the town's budget for the fiscal year beginning October 1 2024 adopting the fiscal policies and directing publication of notice thereof providing for severability conflicts and an effective date okay do we have any public comment on this item no Laura you had your l on first I believe I do so this kind of ties into why um I pulled item five which it's this item five is called the pay plan structure so my question is well first of all what is in our agenda tonight is different than what we had given to us in August there's new positions and there's no column for current salary but my question is so we adopt this budget and we have this pay plan outlined for us in section five so what happens if I'm trying to think of a good example massive storm comes through and we get wiped out financially and I don't mean wiped out like we need to go you know open and go fund me count but you know we lose significant money in having to deal with storm cleanup yeah are we Bound by the pay plan structure if we approve the budget they're two separate things so the pay plan structure that is wait are you suggesting if we had to let five people go because we have to make up for that money because we don't have the money could we let five people go I think that's what she's ask the State of Florida is a right to work state and right this minute you could let everybody go as long as you don't give them the wrong reason on why you're letting them go you can fire anybody for anything accept the wrong reason all right so that's right I can I can I would have to be directed by Council to do a reduction in staff or Council would have to say to me find half a million dollars and I say the only way we can do that is if we cut half the staff and do half the work okay I I just you know again I I'm not arguing the fact that people need to be paid I just want to make sure that if we approve this pay plan structure that we're not you know pay plan is a road map of what you pay based on a job description within a classification and it's um it's data it's comparative data it's comparative data so that if we're hiring someone we know what range we're going to hire them in and we did not change any of the there was a I'm going to talk a little bit about the pay plan right now since the issue came up I won't go into a long story can you can you also address the ISS an issue that came up today which was um the distinction between a clerk and a town clerk there was someone that commented that they saw a Clerk's position for $40,000 um and that our town clerk is being grossly overpaid um can you please talk about that distinction whatever you say well clerk is clerk is an interesting word because it's used lots of different ways you know you look in the dictionary you can find lots of definitions for a single word a clerk might be a cashier and by the way that $44,000 clerk in Palm Beach Gardens is a cashier but a town clerk is a specific designation of a specific position that has specific training has very specific training and certification and responsibilities and is generally speaking one of the top three people in any Municipal organization um and um you know um it's different than just a clerk I mean there's lots a town clerk and not a clerk correct and by the way the town clerk in Palm Beach Gardens Spas salary is $18,000 that's a rounded number I mean there's a lot of Law and there's a lot of law that a town clerk needs to be familiar with corre absolutely they keep us out thank you for clearing that up yeah the other thing I would point out is a pay plan is a series of ranges and they match job descriptions so if your duty as a clerk or a cashier is different than your duty as a building technician because you have different knowledge skill and ability requirements that's what puts you in a different spot in the pay plan in the pay plan we have four different types of responsibilities you could either be in a associate a technician a professional or an executive we do it a lot more simple here than other places do it but you know everybody needs a career path and everybody needs to know what they can expect that they will get paid and how we came up with our pay plan was very simple we looked at what everybody else does and then we picked the lowest and I'm not joking I'm dead serious but it is kind of funny uh one of the council people actually did a detailed review and submitted some suggestions to me it's always great to have somebody review your work and they came up with an even simpler model of the pay plan that we prepared based on all of the surveys and comparisons and all so actually I went with the suggested pay plan and again with the theory being meeting the minimum of the Pepe and the Pepe is the Public Employee professional something or another it's done by the um Human by the Florida public human resource official organization and we are in we Benchmark off the lowest 25% or the lowest quartile of all the positions in the state and the goal is to meet that minimum wherever we had somebody meeting the minimum then their pay was only increased this year here bu a cola of 6% because that seems reasonable compared to all the other colas that we collected that are being given out by the county and all the other cities within the county in fact 6 and a half was the average of that and how many years has it been since our employees have gotten a cola um 2022 I think was the last Cola a cola is a cost of living adjustment that goes across the board the only changes that I did make to the um more simplified pay plan that was shared with all of you by that council person um was um potentially to go inhouse for an attorney you would negotiate that position like you did with me so rather than having ranges for the attorney or the manager I typed in as negotiated because that's between the council and the candidate and also if we are going to have an in-house um function uh Mr Curts asked for the pay range for the pargal to be from 50 to 80 and so I changed that because I think we originally had 55 to 75 so those were the changes and also while we employ a number of part-time people the pay range shows the annual salary because we pay based on an hourly salary calculated off the annual salary so those are the only changes I make and in summary everyone met the minimum except for the four positions I reported which are myself the building official the code one of the code officers something like that but everybody met the minimum and whatever they were currently getting paid they got 6% I spoke with the people that I had proposed larger raises for into the market and we did not go with those larger raises we went with the minimum plus the 6% so I left um all the line items in the budget the same but what I've have told a number of you when I've met with you individually to go over the HR manual in the agenda is that I am going to set up a targeted savings account against all the payroll accounts of the $60,000 that have been calculated and I'm very hopeful to be able to achieve that but I did not put that in any of these numbers but you can count on that we were we all we will Target a $60,000 savings so I just want to answer that in full I hope I did okay no hold on because we have questions March had March I'm sorry March was first Mar I thought Laura was first no you were first okay I was first um are um are these increases um based on uh years of service or what what's the CR that you uh selected normally you would go ahead and and I did write this in the document that I provided to you normally you would go ahead and give some waiting for tenure but if you take a look at our employees um L there is one employee in public works that has been here since 2017 and that person is the highest paid member of the public work staff so the equity of that position has been Tak taken into consideration second to that person I'm the next longest tenured employee here um there's no tenure in my number um and then after me there's one other employee who has been here in tenure and um I think her duties and responsibilities have changed and equity for her position has been taken into consideration with everybody being here 2 years or less there is no discernable Equity to put into the equation if we do the minimum plus the 6% or what they're currently making if it meets the minimum plus the 6% so we have addressed Equity okay um how many workers do we have that um give a breakdown in other words of zero to five okay 0er to five would be everybody except two people Linda and I Linda wadell and I are the only two employees that have worked here more than five years I'm five she's six that's what I think yeah the next person behind in tenure is three years and then after that it's all two years and below and less than one year less than one year I think I gave a number of 12 people were hired in the last year to 18 months I I'd have to double go back and check it but um I believe that um the idea when the previous manager was hired was to go ahead and restaff and when I took over the I I think that was also a direction that was given to me as well so the tenure of everyone is pretty much the last two years all right um was there any consideration to um giving um raises based on increments you know uh like those who had more um more years of service you know would uh would go up a lot quicker than those coming in at one I mean I I'm assuming that not everybody is getting the same amount even though they have less years of service when you do a cost of living it's across the board and that was what was recommended at the last meeting to get everybody to the minimum um uh or their current salary if they already met the minimum and then just doing across the board adjust so I took the large Market adjustments that I had proposed out of the picture I I went with what had been brought forward and suggested at the last council meeting um and the details were sent to each council person and I I basically Incorporated that and to to have a $60,000 savings okay and um or to Target a $60,000 savings what is the reason that you are choosing not to get uh an increase it it seems to be fitting a pattern of previous managers but uh um well my contract provides you discussed this when you hired me my contract provides that you can give me a raise any time you want and I have always told you that I prefer that you give the raise to the staff if if money is an issue I'd rather the staff have a raise but if you're giving a cola a cost of living adjustment my contract includes that I would receive a cost of living adjustment um because that is what the council decided in my contract so um if you don't want to give me a raise and you wish to specifically exclude me I would leave that to miss tvia to address but I have always said if we're giving raises to anybody make sure you give it to the staff because they deserve it okay and my last question is um on um on page 133 um how many of those workers that are listed are are non benefit uh we don't pay benefits for them well we have four part-time employees for which we do not pay benefits you also do not pay benefits for me and I would be pretty costly because um we are um age and location banded um so there's at least five people that you do not pay benefits for I'd have to go back and take take a look if there's anybody else who has declined benefits um we have in the past had people declin benefits because they're on their spouse's um insurance we do not pay for dependent coverage we only pay for um the employee coverage and I have mentioned to some of you we are reevaluating um the insurance equation and and what kind of insurance to offer okay thank you you're welcome next so up at the top on page 133 where it says um Town manager Town attorney as negotiated have we are are we still using tors cvia as our primary attorney that's up to you all the direction at the last meeting was that you were going to look at an in-house model so if there is an in-house attorney that would be as negotiated so we still have to go through all the hoops and the rigers and okay if you're going to have an in-house attorney and with me you're already negotiated so you know my number right gotcha okay just checking yes thank you Robert you have your light on yes let me understand so if I'm making $10,000 a year in the minimum in my job classification is now 12,000 I'm going to bump up the 12,000 so I'll increase 2,000 because I'll get the minimum you'll get the minimum yeah and I won't get 6% on top of that I'll get the minimum because I got 20% from 10 to 12 well well what would what was written to me by that council person was the minimum with a 6% across the board so I went to the minimum and did the 6% across the board but getting to the minimum for anybody wasn't that significant I did not take like any of the positions that didn't meet minimum now like for instance the code people or the building official or myself because that's what I remember who didn't meet minimum I didn't move any of those to minimum the only place we move somebody to minimum if they weren't already there was in public works or in you know some of the other pay grades that you recommended but if you recall you started some paygrades at 50 that we were um proposing to pay 45 I didn't move anybody that $5,000 all right and then the building official I noticed that bumped up quite a bit I I changed I said before while we have part time positions the hourly amount is based on an annual salary we take that salary and divide it by 280 hours and so we pay based on that hourly rate off the annual salary and it was that way on the code officers so I thought it was just a mistake on the building official so I put it to the same as the other same level positions but we're not changing the pay on the building official at all thank you you're welcome okay I tried to follow what what was shared with me I thought it was very good okay Phyllis would you like to make a mo may may oh I'm sorry we have a public comment I'm so sorry I thought I already called for public comment Go Cassie sui sorry I wasn't sure what number you were on it looked like you were on 12 and then you wereing about five with the pay plan so I went ahead and put my public comment in um I just had a question with your pay plan um I'd like to see um with some of the comments and the things that I've heard in the community people aren't understanding where these numbers are coming from what cities are you comparing us to what are their budgets as compared to our budgets if we could see those numbers perhaps um even though we might be a similar size we might not have the same budget numbers are they an eight are they an eight number number budget and we're just barely a seven I don't know so it might be something um I think it's important that we see those numbers and we'll see where all they're coming from and where they're they're getting them on the midpoint and that that's important the other thing is Cola uh like I have no problems with paying people in that we are in a financial economic downturn right now and unstable where we're going and um perhaps you could if other companies have done in the past and other agencies have done is when you get a cola maybe defer it 2% 2% 2% or a a 3% you know something like that instead of a straight 6% but you'd have to crunch the numbers to see how that works um I haven't seen any type of cost benefit analysis to see how that works what it looks like when I look at when I or people that go online they look they just see a pay plan and they see $90,000 here 140,000 here and for what now I just learned tonight there's a difference in one position and another that's important to be um explained somewhere either online or in the agenda items because I think it's important for people to understand but I'm like I said I'm a number person and I like to see where these numbers are and if how they work and what it is and that we're all making informed decisions did you want to respond to public comment yes madame mayor thank you you um our pay plan is a separate document and the analysis of it is um I'm going to say around 20 or 30 pages what we did was we took um the survey that was um led by the local chapter of the Palm Beach County um Managers Association and I believe it was 13 cities responded to that there are 38 or 39 cities in Palm Beach County that was just 13 cities this is the pppy thing you refer to no no that is one that was done locally in Palm Beach County second of all we looked at Palm Beach County's pay grades third of all we looked at the local Special Districts we looked at I we also looked at northern northern improvement district uses the Palm Beach County pay scale um I and Northern improvement district they pay more than us for instance their executive directors are getting $200,000 their employees make more than ours but we compared us to them so we did US compared to the districts then we did US compared to our neighboring communities which would have been Royal Palm Beach and Wellington and the county um and they're all obviously making more than we are so then we said okay well let's look at cities our size cities that have the same population cities that have similar budgets we looked at those and they're making higher than ours are and all these comparisons were all put in that same summary of reviews we then took the Statewide survey that's done by a human resource professional association you know it's a chapter of a National Association and they do benchmarks for all the positions that local cities have and then they split it up based on cour tiles these all have job descriptions with them so we were able to match up our positions to their positions and if you've worked in local government long enough and a lot of our people have contacts in the different places we could call and we could say does this person do this or do they do that so we knew that we had to compare apples to app apples to apples and in addition we also went to the Department of Labor Southeast Florida statistics for positions so that it was just in you know anybody in South Florida and again um Southeast Florida and again we looked at the job descriptions there because they have them categorized and we matched our positions to those positions and then we saidwell gee we're not near these numbers um but how do we pick the right number um well we really couldn't right because you can't just compare us to districts because we do more than districts you can't just compare us to our neighbors even though our density is is low and the closest low density are our neighbors believe it or not um you can't compare us on our footprint because taking care of this footprint which is the same size as Royal Palm Beach or as um Jupiter Farms that's not going to get us the right number because they have different infrastructure so we said well gee you know there really isn't any place that's a perfect match so let's just go ahead and see what the average of all of these are and then take the lowest of the lowest paying in each range and the highest of the highest paying in each range and see where we end up and when we did that we said no that's not going to work for us so we went then strictly with the averages and when we went with the averages then we went to hey and we compared all of our average minimum midpoint and high to the um Pepe low midpoint and high or minimum midpoint Point in High and we checked to see what percentage we were of Pepe and as long as we were like 90% or better of their minimum of the lowest quartile we said okay we made it in the range and then if we were between the midpoint I'm sorry between the middle and the midpoint we said we're good now after we did that and that's a whole booklet explaining that those are based on the current salaries that is what the market is if we hired somebody right now all those same cities and districts are giving raises they are doing two different kind uh three different kinds of raises one kind of raise is where they have unions and some places have General employee unions didn't look at unions don't care about unions we don't have unions toss that out some places are doing um classification and compensation studies which are Market studies um we obtained the most recent class in comp study done in Palm Beach County and that was done in ocean ridge we matched our salaries up to the ocean ridge salaries all of the places that gave us the salary you don't want to hear the detail but this is what we did all of the places that are paying those salaries are also giving Cola so we went and we checked what colas is everybody giving the county is going any County and County agencies are going any place from 6 to 8% the State of Florida did a 5% at the beginning of the year they're doing a 3% now a number of the cities and we listed them and said because in our Cola research they said they're giving an adjustment to the range based on classific and comp and they're giving a cola adjustment the colas on average started at 5% and went all the way up to 12 a half per. yeah the average Cola out of everybody that responded is 65% 6 and a half% is pretty much what the county on average is giving and it was proposed at the last meeting if we went to the different pay plan the round lower simplified pay plan brought everybody to at least the minimum except the positions that were already not in the minimum and added 6% we'd be okay that's what we're planning to do and that would be a $660,000 savings in our budget so a lot of work a lot of thought and a lot of reasonable logic went into coming up with the pay plan it's not going to be perfect and the one that was suggested as a simplified model makes a whole lot of good sense and that's the one in here let me just interrupt you for one second is all of that research available for a public absolutely available and it can be verified okay so now let me let me for one other thing Mr sure you came up with very similar numbers and I know you didn't do all that how did you come up with your numbers which are very similar to the ones third number just rounded them to number kind of simple yeah 523 I'm just saying your suggestions were very close to her so I'm wondering how you got to them okay thank you and I lowered the salaries that he recommended I I I brought them all down because he was right okay thank you I'm sorry Marge questions yeah I was uh concerned about um you know if you stayed with what your pay plan originally was uh before you adjusted to Robert's uh suggestion um what impact that would have going forward in the future years I think that um well it would just get everybody to a basic salary and the impact would be whatever the market Chang to in those years or if there were an across theboard change in those years the impact going forward is only if a raise is approved okay and and we're still solid at the 25% in in in our yes in our areas yes so going forward uh we're not in any financial hardship not for providing the raises not at all those numbers are smaller relative to the amount of deferred maintenance and so on what puts us in financial hardship is that we have to make decisions on where to get the funding for fixing our infrastructure and the people that were having do it and the maintenance that we're doing are the staff so in answer to your question it's a smaller nut to crack than the the issue of the work to be done okay and uh when you mentioned that we worked on the pay plan who who was in the group of Wiis um you know almost everybody like for instance if I couldn't get through to somebody I'd say Richard do you have a contact at soand so and so he got me some special district numbers I think from northern I think he called the director at Northern because I wasn't getting a response when I sent it and then um uh let's see who else you you got the it no I had the it ID out of their budget but I think you had to get some clarification yeah was another one yeah I think yeah I also got South Indian River but they were redoing their pay plan um I had Ena reach out to any of the cities that hadn't responded to um the Palm Beach County survey um we I got information from ocean ridge I asked the clerk's office to send an email to all of the different clerks I mean we all had we're we're we run and go to where we're needed so yeah everybody probably had a hand in getting some piece of it okay I mean it wasn't biased we are unique and that's come up several times I mean the our population is a lot less than most of the 39 cities um and yet our our size acreage wise is higher than most of the city most of them yeah yeah so I mean um we are unique and we have to uh you know we have to work within what we have I mean uh we we're we're our hands are tied sometimes and um the workers um that we have you know many of them with very low years of uh service and a lot of times we get a very f fast turnaround once once we get a system going and uh giving them raises and so forth uh then they start looking for greener pastures and and move on and I know we've had some situations where that pasture that they went to wasn't so green and they wanted to come back and you know we we have the ability to say sorry you know you left us you know so um I I hope these employees appreciate all the work that the wi came up with uh for their raises these employees are the best employees that I have ever worked with and just to close up your comment these employees are mission-driven employees because we are unique we are smaller and we are more difficult because we don't have a lot of brand new equipment although thank you very much for helping us get some um we are different because we don't have um as many people as the size of our footprint we make our people do everything they're cross-trained as I said in one of these documents I shared with you collection of Swiss Army knives that means they work harder and they have to work smarter there isn't anybody here that's above doing the most menial task there isn't anybody here that won't come running in on a weekend if something needs to be done as council member manilia said last week if we have a storm she know she's going to see this crew and I know that too and I'm very very grateful for having them um and they are very devoted um and very wonderful and talented group of people and I really feel we truly have a team so thank you for letting me say that okay Laura before we take a vote did you have another question yes or comment um sort ofish yes thank you um go back in your memory yeah to 2022 based on the the list on page 133 27 peoples full-time part-time our people cost has doubled since 2022 we've gone from 1.3 million to 2.6 how many different bodies um almost all of them but let me also say to no no not different bodies like in 2022 we had 18 people we had our one different body we had no no no stop I want to know how many bodies in 2022 we had 18 bodies and here we have 27 okay but and I'm guessing how many were in 2022 so we have different Services being provided and I'm not including the contracted employees that we had so for now and thank you for this you're right I should have said this um we had code enforcement by a company and we did not have the body on the list right now we are using um three parttime staff to do code enforcement their equivalent is like one and a half people okay we are using a part-time building official before we had that contract Ed and we had and it was a giant train wreck and now we have two staff people one who is um like like an incred I don't even know what to call her because she can do anything um and Lexi is still with us and she can do anything we have accountability now we have accountability we have statistics so in answer to your question we traded contracts to bring in staff and so we have technically four more bodies for that staff but um we're doing them part-time for four of them so those technically only convert to two FTE and a million dollars and the reason is because we spent the money outside and the way that we paid our Building Company you're really good at this the way we paid our building company was we only got 10% of the revenue so the cost never showed so you never saw the full cost of the building company and what we found out is we weren't getting our full revenues and our current building official is going back and trying to rectify that situation and truing up on that and with our previous code officer um and the companies we used we couldn't get anything through the system and um we have 500 cases in our system right now that um most of them have been working through the system I think we're down to now um I don't know maybe 70 open right now so lot a lot of different a lot of different functions happening with only you know like one net new body um but contracts terminated that we don't spend money for so again I didn't give you the number for code enforcement our old contract had 133 to $160,000 in the time we had ourselves on contract we spend less than that today with our employees our employees are $112,000 and they were at Lake worth Beach when they were supposed to be here working so so things have changed a lot in the structure but I think there's accountability and it is online and if you can't find it let me know and I can give it to you and we are trying to make it easier online okay thank you bis you've got your Mo our motion for item number 12 and I want to clarify they weren't at the town of Lakeworth Beach they were at the beach they didn't realize their company had low jaacks in their vehicles so they were ripping us off and this is why that doesn't work we've been ripped off for years by third party vendors that's why I want to make a motion that's why we have the quality that we have now because Francine has really put her nose to the Grind had put up with the Ms made sure that we had quality people in quality positions okay thank you ladies for your comments phis okay I'm make a motion to approve resolution 2024-25 adopting the proposed fiscal year 20242 budget including balances brought forward and related fiscal policies second okay all in favor I oppose I Nate oh passes four to one okay moving on to item number 13 item number I'm I'm sorry 13 yeah item number 13 is um first reading of the CIP ordinance I was just gonna ask Val to read it is that okay yes Val could you read the ordinance please just broke me up okay sorry ordinance number 20 24-11 an ordinance of the Town Council of the town of loat gr Florida adopting the annual update to the Capital Improvements element of the comprehensive plan consistent with chapter 163 Florida Statutes providing for conflict severability and an effective date okay Jeff is this your item I take it yes um this is the the CIP proposed CIP ordinance um we have gone over uh at the previous meetings um in some detail the 2025 proposed um budget I think we're I think you all have reached consensus um on that uh councilman Shore U is brought up tonight the uh um the culbert on 25th um but otherwise I think we all are uh in accord what we have not given a lot of discussion to is the out out lineing years um and what you do with this um ordinance is you propose a fiveyear um Capital plan at your places today I gave you um a ranking sheet dealing with the the roadways um what we are asking you to do and I don't think given the time um that we want to do it right now but before meeting and and at the next meeting on the 18th let's be prepared to discuss um the ranking sheet rank separately yeah and if you did you see that it's got it if you give a if you want to uh give those to us over the the next week just remember to initial them and and date them they're not binding or anything but it'll be information that we can then call to together um and we can come up with some some priorities there was questions as to how we came up with um the proposed Paving plan or Road Improvement plan for 26 through 30 um and I think the best thing to do is to to really get your input and then develop it from uh from there um and I so what I would uh suggest we do is pass this on first reading uh tonight um discuss the Outland outline years on the 18th and then adopt on second reading on October 1st so okay any public comment on this vow no council comment Robert yeah I gave everybody this sheet of uh the paving plan plan that we had in place it's all the roads that we paved already and then last year's Paving plans we added notes you know things we need type of Road um easements with um how many properties how many roads like on um Global Trail West sea Carry Lane you know we talk about 19 properties four roads 45 five properties six roads 30 properties three roads you know talking about um Paving the roads most traveled based on properties um it seemed to be a pretty good uh reason there was no intent to pave dead end roads with taxpayers money unless they were higher density roads like um 24th Court had 35 houses you know on one3 Mile Road so a small road with a high density it made sense to pay that because that would require a an extra level of service I think when it came to grading so that that was what we put together and a lot of it was done was started but looking at this next phase to to turn around and there's a road here with 45 properties and six roads it's not even on the list how does that get dropped from the list that was the most dense area in the town that's not paved and it's not even on the CIP till 2030 I mean that's ludicrous that should be next year you know these these areas with this high density was the reason why we put them sooner than later um so I I I just don't understand when I see Paving a road that has one property on it and where does that come from I mean where do you get the justification to pave a road that goes to to one property I'm totally baffled on on how this came about and but you know I did provide this it's a little bit extra information because it has the road length and the number of properties just looking at Papa and celton squares and rectangles you know no extensive research on driving down the road and count mailboxes or anything so it may be a vacant property well thank you we can use this when we're making our rankings for the future plan okay thank you for doing that Robert y okay and then the neighborhood when it says a neighborhood that's a we talked about a neighborhood Road that's versus a you know through two lane road which which is minimum 18 ft in the neighborhood we said we pave what's there that was the the direction previously gave and then o I want I want to emphasize Compton Brian and Marcel Are Gonna Fly apart in the next few years they are o Ro and when they start breaking it's going to be bad be North well North is already done Robert I mean it's going be Road real quick and thank you for providing and they're not even on there I don't think they're even on there till 2030 they just got done yeah we can't no these have never been done they never been PA Compton Marcel comp in have certainly been done a couple of times they've been done twice they oim and then they put that black right and there are other people who haven't been done at all including aoad which is a level one Road thank you for doing doing this we'll all consider it when we're doing our ranking yes please consider that maybe I didn't read the instructions so so we were given the check sheet correct and now do do you want us to approve this and then go back and do the check sheeet or do you want us to do the check sheet first and then we can approve this this long game CIP plan we what we what we have discussed in in detail and I think there is um a high level of consensus on is what is proposed for next year the out buying years and this is a five-year um Capital plan from 26 to to 30 we have not had much discussion on and there has has been uh questions asked as to why this road versus that road and those kind of things and I think that's worthy of um discussion that sheet that we handed out is to help facilitate that discussion but not tonight given the the time and the fact that you still have a bit to do on your agenda um if you could get that to us then we would discuss that on the on the 18th as a part of that agenda where we would focus on that and then second reading um and final hearing on this would be on October 1 and we would actually adopt the the ordinance and that would give us time to take those so to simplify what you're saying is what we're approving with this first reading is the vote that we already took last time on the on the amendments to the 2024 and the 2025 so we're approving that which passed four to one and and that we're approving to consider moving forward what we're going to do based on everybody's input not just Robert's input but everybody's input not to be a goody touch but I already filled out my check sheet and I handed it to Francine and I said personally I think Council should be removed from Road picking thank you I let let the let the people who do what they do do what they do because all we've ever done like it or not admit it or not is use it as a freaking weapon so personal leave it in the hands of professionals and age do but we'll do that for next time well we'll that for discussion one thing that it's please excuse me Madam mayor my light is on the well I wanted you to know that our lobbyist and also the different agencies that we've been working with require us to show public support for projects so as many things as we can put in the out years we should put in here because saying that we have a placeholder for it in our Capital plan will still help us in applying to get funding for it right and I think what Laura is saying is that's something for our Public Works director perhaps our building department to decide because they're the ones that trly would make unbiased and Intelligent Decisions where did they go but they walked up maybe to the I was just gonna back you up not use it as a political but let's go ahead and make our my point was if there's something missing tell us so we can add it okay go ahead and make okay I just want to say public comment I I know that you already called for public comment but I did receive one during discussion okay I just want to say because I I did well I was hoping Mr glant and Craig were still here but I I'm 100% with Laura I think we hired them to do a job we are not Road people and that this is their job and the priority is on them and when things don't go right it's on now thank you laa you're welcome that's consensus of you know if you don't want to fill it out that's fine is just a seeking an opportunity we may all fill it out exactly the same way Laura did okay or not okay go ahead motion to approve ordinance 202 4-11 updating the capital Improvement element of the comprehensive plan consistent with chapter 163 Florida statutes on first reading second all in favor I oppose okay oh passes four to what yes okay we are skipping 14 and 15 which is really looking like a blessing right now Laura or we would be here till tomorrow night at this time move to the following meeting correct number 16 uh B if you could please read the title for us ordinance 202 24-7 on second reading an ordinance of the Town Council of the town of lockah hatti grow Florida repealing section 20-50 recreational vehicles of article 20 residential zoning districts and establishing article 92 recreational vehicles within part three supplemental regulations within the UniFi Land Development code providing for conflict severability codification and an effective date okay any comment on the RV policy that we have here now Marge yeah um I feel that the residents that um own their own RVs they're registered for traveling on the roads um they shouldn't need to uh get a $100 permit per year for for they're registered used maybe monthly uh you know to go on a weekend trip or something in other words they have one parked in their driveway they should just be able to do that and not have to I mean they can register the fact that they have it but why why put an extra charge on these people so the ordinance is written so that the permit fees are applied to those folks who are intending to have an occupied RV so if you're just storing an RV I think the council's been cleared that you didn't wish to apply FD to those people but rather um we've gone down the discussion path of having them submit an affidavit confirming that there's no occupancy of that RV and that change that's correct that's been your discussion to dat and that's the way that but I don't think it's clear in the ordinance because I had several calls as Marge obviously did on this issue so I think it needs to be written in a way where it's clear that if you have an if you have your personal RV that you go glamping in every two months or three months or months parked in your driveway there is no fee there's just an affidavit saying I have an RV that's tagged roadworthy and sitting in my driveway yeah so right after a it says um it confirms exactly what you said it says all Sites intended to be utilized by an occupied RV shall require an annual RV permit all Sites storing one or more unoccupied RS are required to submit the affidavit to the town so I think we have that language pretty clear and that's across the board uh not not based on size of your lot or anything if it's registered and insured and used on a regular bases or even on a non-regular basis if it's your RV and it's parked in your driveway and not live not not yeah we're we're pretty comfortable with the language that we've drafted with the attorneys that a speaks exactly what you've described if it's unoccupied and you're simply storing it um it's an RV that you own or lease um related to the the property owner then you simply are requested to submit the affidavit confirming that there's no occupancy otherwise if you're intending to utilize the RV U as an occupied RV then you would be subject to um the ratios and the permit and the fees that are listed below right okay I believe that's still the intent of the council that will make a lot of people happy that have you know point something uh lot yeah so just to clarify um you do have regulations on on the storage based on Lots so while there might not be a fee the way that the allowances had been written and discussed to date was that um to store an unoccupied RV would be um on fewer than 2.5 acres and then the adjustments um from there go based on your lot size and whether you're Bonafide egg or not bonified egg based on the discussions that were had at the most recent budget um meeting so you'll see in the um backup that's provided in your agenda some highlighted sections and that's what was changed um so if you pay attention to the highlighted sections that's based on your um discussion at your budget Workshop meeting and then also based on um changes that were requested between we added the extra ones for Bonafide egg right yeah you had quite a bit of additional discussion and changes so that's a majority of the changes that are in the table and then the other changes that were made were relating to to the um fee structure a site inspection fee versus a permit application fee um and then there was discussion on uh the solid waste and um the trash hauling but I think the attorney did request some clarification on uh on dumpsters versus not dumpsters and trash enclosures just based on that again that budget discussion um from the other week all right and also if um someone has has paid the $500 uh fee and they have the three campers that are allowed if at the end of the season the site where these campers were for the six months is left unsightly they should not be allowed to have any uh campers the next year it's a private property it's a private property they have yeah I mean but they would is there a reinspect required every year are the inspection's good for years yeah the inspection was every year yeah it was modified to the um fiveyear site inspection and then a permit fee of $100 per year but the fiveyear site inspection gets you $500 for five years so you're basically having a site inspection once every five years I can't imagine anybody is running out of camper space is going to let people leave it all trashed up but that's just seen it just I've seen it I wouldn't let somebody leave it on my property but yeah yeah okay well I don't know that I don't know how we can address that I really don't think we can because that's like health and safety because they that would come under with too if they're that but the punishment would be that they can't have right but then you're requiring you're the one that said the inspection should only be every five years and that's and we moveed to that and now you're saying you want to move it back to every year because the only way to see whether they did it unsightly would it be doing an inspection when they came in and when they left and then who would have to DET determine unsightly I mean I don't know what I determine is unsightly could be very different from what Robert determines as unsightly I mean you know within my own house I can't walk past a sink of dishes but the men in my house can walk past it all day long and that's not unsightly to them but it's really unsightly to me okay so I'm just not sure that's something that we can regulate is what I'm saying Laura did you have a comment I did um thank you everybody for slogging through this um I love the fact that it's clearly broken down this time EG versus Bon EG and it's clearly delineated 179 day duration um there's one yesal that's cor um there's one thing I wanted to ask my fellow Council people here um received a bunch of phone calls from equestrians who say I need one more RV but I I don't meet this lot size so if you're Bonafide egg and you're on a 5 acre parcel should there be shoot what's the word a variance hi my name is X I'd really like to have one more RV I'm already one more that we gave them correct for being modified um just one more um I'm willing to pay an extra special request fee for that and it's only for the the duration of time that you know the the November to April or whatever it is that's we're calling horse season just a thought I think if you are food for thought if you're going down that path um maybe consider an opportunity to treat it more as a special exception versus a variance because I think just better ter yeah you have a little bit more latitude in the types of information you could request I mean we could write it however um but maybe consider it more as a special exception and think about know buffering Andes where how much more traffic would it cause that it would have to be I think you you'd want to take into fact into consideration factors like the individual Lot location is you know and the end of a dead end Road and it's well buffered and they're willing to do I'm okay with putting in a special exception Clause but it has to be approved every year it's not like you get approved forever it's circumstantial for the year and and they would have to have a dumpster they're asking for four RVs well and again that would be probably part of the special exception we would get to put conditions on the special exception of and it's and like you're saying it's Case by case it's yeah well thank you council member Shore our special exceptions have three different levels of approval one is a town manager notifies the council one is Town manager does it without notifying the council and the other one is Town Council has to approve it so with this special exception be a staff level special exception no they have to come in front of God and everybody okay we want their ninth RV that's why I'm asking because the way our special exceptions go we have three different levels state has to come before Council I agree on that I don't think it's something to be dumped up you're victimized enough I don't think totally agree with you guess correct yeah one more somebody with 10 ACR divided into two fives can have eight right did you guys go four yeah it's only a consideration if you're uncomfortable with the revised allowances that are here no if you're comfortable with the allowances then we leave the allowances that are in here and add the possibility of a special exception on a Case by case b this is what I'm hearing tell me if I'm wrong no you're good we're leaving we're very comfortable with what we have here yes where we would like to add for our final reading a special exception Clause to be heard by Council on a Case by case basis and somebody has to create what it is that we're looking for and and I don't whether that's something we have to create as Council no more than one and no more than one yeah app less 10 yeah period end of story um and and and then we will um consider I hear I hear garbage being wor good points on screenage traffic consideration traffic so these all need to be on the application for special exception yeah right um so one thing to consider is and paying like triple if you're doing it yearly you know are you gonna get a slog of 50 of these you know it has to be done exception for yearly no yeah this is sorry not for yearly annual they're saying you would need to renew your special special exception request every year it would only be good for we have to hear 50 of them we'll have a special meeting and hear 50 of them you know that's a really good point deadline if you think you need one more October one yes yes well when they do their application for their site plan they need to go ahead and show four sites available and that needs to be approved corre by the building efficient before they ever even consider coming to us then they need to after that's been approve come to us and justify why absolutely they need that four or I'm hearing from these are people that already have the four sites they've been renting them out for 15 years they want to continue renting them out so they just need to get their site plan approval and then come before us for the special key to get site was there a special fee for this one more we we we can have a special fee for it yeah if you're going to process a special exception well we need to put it in this ordinance we need to put it on our fee schedule um and I'm hearing and I question I heard something like three times the current fee sure um I don't know yeah okay by me yeah 300 no the fee is $500 your site plan yeah so you're only going to charge somebody $300 for their fourth RV on their br and make them get a dumpster and make them do buffering and maybe say no if they don't if they're in the wrong spot for traffic access or so on so I want to throw something out there may I throw away so people that have already been through the motion regarding the current RV ordinance that are not on five acres I think should be that went through the in inection that went through all the legal brat I think should be allowed to continue we under this ordinance we already said we already took out the grandfather and Caitlyn said we couldn't do it last time in discussion with the town attorneys Fair um yes there was some concern about the grandfathering based on the fact that it was a yearly permit and not something that's vested to you in perpetuity there was some other discussion on the concern regarding the grandfathering but I would like to confirm um oh really so all those these people in town that have already spent their money did everything by the book did all everything by the Town rules they're dismissed the basis for that because they don't have five acres no because it wasn't continued in perpetuity it was a one-year one shot gig and you can't go back am I close yeah no last year when you came to town hall oh no they said you didn't need the permit that you could go ahead and have your RVs they weren't taking any money so that's bull okay because the RV program was still in operation and people were still renting their RVs and people went through the program when other people did not like four people the the code would yeah but a lot of didn't do anything a lot of people had RVs on their properties and didn't do anything so you're penalizing the people that came to town and got their permits do it five years do it I think we need to consider them on a Case by case basis now you got a problem but but the special people uh when Phyllis made the comment that $300 for um the extra camper or whatever it is called um that was because that's for only one special exception there is no special look these people are renting RVs for money okay there's not a damn RV in this town that probably doesn't get rented for under a grand a month right that's $4,000 a month and you could do that for up to six months you know you're acting like this is a big giant hardship no I'm not I'm not saying it's a hard ship I'm saying that it's an income you're only allowing them to have this privilege for one year right and it's costing them $300 where anybody else it's a $100 I'm I'm not talking for five years yeah right the five year thing was very interesting that this town is gonna eat four RVs with God knows how many people in them years just D they still have to register them every year for a fee for how much $100 $100 an RV yeah or an RV or for the whole side plan no an RV $100 wow you think we should raise that 100 the fee on the RVs no I'm not saying anymore because you guys can I have a motion for it I'm gonna make I just had one one more point of clarification on the um effective date um the effective date as written is October one of this year I think there was discussion um on the effective date at previous meetings I wanted to confirm that that's still the desired effective date is basically is it October one or is it SE I thought we said October one we said October one so it was October one of this year just to clarify so we bring this back to next next meeting second I'm going to make a motion to pass ad excuse me com thank you sorry Missi Cassie sui I missed coming up here um it's been a long time I like this spot here um okay thank you for getting something done and then we see how it works and then we move from there which I think was the intention but I did have one issue where all residents and not onee residents multiple years and we forget the people that we are and the people that make this community and I have an issue with registering something I own with the town um it reminds me of ATF coming to my house and saying how many guns do I have it's not your business or when my doctor ask my kid well do you have firearms in the house how many are there um do you want to know how many bottles of bourbon my husband drinks should I fill out a permit for that you know we have bodka what who drink there I'm being sarcastic by the way but I have nine cars registered to my family when everybody's home it looks like a parking lot should I have to register all those cars and say what they're used for do you see where I'm going no so the point is is I'm not a violator my neighbor's not a violator uh the neighbor down the road is not a violator you have an in place and this is basically for people that and you have to have something there I understand that but when you're requiring people who aren't doing anything okay to have to come into town so now the town knows their business I for one don't like big government okay I don't live in an HOA I feel like now I'm moving into an HOA and that's what I feel when it doesn't I'm not breaking a rule my neighbor's not breaking a rule we're not renting I understand businesses and you have to have the rules but when you it seems a little excessive to me when you're asking somebody who's not doing anything wrong to come in and say well if you have an RV you have to register with the town and then have you addressed confidential records for people I know a neighbor who's a confidential record who has two RVs on his 5 Acres his personal RVs he has a goose neck and he has a tag I guess a toy hauler and a tagal along I guess there's a difference between the two and how what is your proposal there because that's all public record when it goes into the town how you going to propose that but I think it's very difficult when you're trying to I know you try to enforce the rules but I don't think you need to require people to come in to register I mean if you look at my car my house driving by when everybody's home you're going to wonder Bo she must have parties all the time so um I I think we need to remove that for somebody who's not doing anything just because they have an RV and they bought one now I have to register it so I think I don't think that needs to be there you're trying to lump everybody in and if you just take I don't think you're going to have anybody violating it if somebody has more then they code enforcement will get called and then they'll come in but that's how this started understand your community Miss Madame mayor Madame mayor we have another public comment but certainly if you have something to say it is pertinent to this yes ma'am um Florida statute 119 covers confidential records and you have to file with the agency you wish to keep your records confidential with so perhaps guys please we're trying to have a meeting so perhaps if someone has a confidential record they would actually be Exempted from registering if they register under Florida with us under Florida statute 119 they would be exempt from registering those RVs but they'd have to register and Mr TV you have to clear it up for me but that would be putting their address into the public record gotta so they file Florida statute 119 and there is no registration okay so you want this back on next meeting for second reading 9918 no I think we're okay with the second reading we're fine okay I think we're fine go ahead Virginia Standish 15410 North Road there seems to be two points that are confusing some people listening to this one you you're mentioning $500 $300 but in your agenda it says Bonafide a $100 so if you guys may want to ref let us tell us where we are on the fees the second thing is now it says everyone has to be hooked up to a septi tank I'm just saying we're reading that's how when we read it is is how it sounds those are two points of confusion um the third I'd like to know the name of this HOA you formed I feel you're invading our privacy you're casting a wide net all the Bad actors now everyone's getting their hands smacked under some nonsense excuse that this has to be done as a private citizen I buy a vehicle I buy an RV that's private and insured and now I got to run to town and say I own it please give me a list of everything you'd like to know that I own that I must register with this town because you you start off on a good foot and then you go down you spy like oh we got to know everything we got to cover everybody we are tired the people who are doing things right are tired of watching the people who aren't doing things right destroy our lives and get away with things in this town thank you well best best of intentions never go unpunished so I think that the intention of this Council was to put something in place because nothing was in place which would allow us to penalize the violators unfort it means that we have to request cooperation from the people who are following the rules but we cannot penalize the violators unless we are able to identify who they are and I believe that you know like Miss sui said when she started out we're getting something in place it may not be perfect we're doing our best up here guys and we've beat this a lot we've we've really hashed this out and I think what we have here is a a really good start that CA tries to accommodate I mean we've had a very vocal group here tonight that's opposed to this but I will tell you that I get just as many phone calls and emails and texts on a weekly basis from people who don't want any RVs in the town period end of story they don't want the traffic and they don't want any period they don't want them stored I got a I got several phone calls today regarding that we're now going to become a storage lot for everybody because inton doesn't allow any to be stored so we're going to wind up getting all those stored over here I'm just telling you I'm I guess I'm asking your patients and to look at the fact that there are two sides to every coin and we're doing the best we can up here to try to get something in place that is fair to both of these extremely opposed once again the town is hugely divided what a surprise that never happens in laty groves right um and we're trying really really hard to get something that a accommodates both sides and is a starting place so with that I will ask you Phil to make your motion I have something to say R please set so um originally this ordinance was townwide and it was for everybody to use but this Council who four out of five people live on five plus acres have now made it about if you have five plus acres so I feel that half the town is being excluded from at least being able to have one RV on their property and I I have a huge problem with that and I am not making a motion for this I make a motion I make a motion to approve ordinance 20247 on second reading with um if you're if you're looking to add the special exception language I think we would need to bring that back to you for consideration because some discussion nouns and verbs that have to get in there yes yeah but it's got to come back then if you want to put it in place by October 1 we have to have it on the 18th so is that doable period is that doable Glenn well yeah yeah we we can add the special exception language and I do want to U clarify for you Madame mayor the um Provisions written currently would be um that you would on fewer than two and a half acres you're allowed to have um one personal RV yeah personal that's right not not to be occupied and on two and a half to five you're allowed to have that one plus another one to stuff here yeah and this was modified on your discussion the numbers have kind of gone back why is it I threw out the number two and a half when I threw out the extra one would you like to throw out the number two I'm okay with the number two are you okay with the number two instead of two and a half yes are you okay with the number two instead of two and no he's not because I live on 2.13 Acres 2.14 okay well that's just that's just thank you and that is recorded on June 18th the number was two just if that has any value I'm okay on June 18th it was two I've already spent money two Acre Farms are you okay with two for the special exception if you're Bonafide egg no the special for me the additional one that you can rent if your Bonafide EG for the smaller Farms that we that I put in last time so you would have your personal one that you can rent or the personal one that you can't yeah either way you would okay so everybody gets so here's the ch everybody gets what and last time the time before we said if you were on five or more you got two but if you were Bonafide a you could add additional one okay that you okay that you could rent out I said at the last meeting and I just threw the number 2.5 I didn't know how many acres you have so I wasn't certainly aiming it at you but I KN I had gotten a lot of calls from people who have smaller Farms which I mistakenly assumed were all 2.5 acres but apparently they're not so I said if you had a smaller farm and you could demonstrate Bonafide EG you would also get the additional one to rent out just like you got on the five five or between five and 10 are you renting one or two you're renting one you're renting one it is written that it has to be used as a car takers quarter for any for Bonafide egg that's 2.5 to five yeah so you're renting one so we're saying move that number from 2.5 to two are you okay with that and you're still renting just one correct okay yes okay so consensus is 4 to one to make that change from 2.5 to2 thank you okay Madame mayor now you can make a motion only one no we can't make a motion there's too many changes it's got to go to Second read meeting yes I had been approached with a request and I don't know if this would fall into the special exception category but for medic medical caretakers that are less than the 2 Acres um if they could have a medical caretaker that is occupied on their property but isn't that just the caretaker that but that's not but but she's right it's not Boni so yeah Medical but it would have to be a medical caretaker I did mention this to some of you mention it and I forgot about so we have to add that medical Clause too and Madam Town manager which uh what was the property size the lower end of that that they were looking to yeah it's it's actually a 1 acre property and they have a medically disabled member of the family and the caretaker is a 247 person and they live in a caretaker's quarters which is an RV well shouldn't that be then an exception you want it to be an exception either way I just wanted to see how it should be handled exception because everybody gets but it can't be occupied so this where they're asking for the one to be and if they can provide medical okay yeah I just want a clarification when you say exception are you talking about the new special exception provision or that would just be a blanket exception without any like spe approval you can demonstrate yes that it's a medical necessity to have that somebody 247 living in there to care for somebody in the house and that's a medical exception that would last for how long one year that lasts for one year and then they've got to renew that request every year be red say that one comes without a fee too because of the nature of it the medical nature of it and I would also say that that one can be manager of Staff approved that doesn't before Council I don't know if everybody agrees with that everybody agree with that okay yeah if they can demonstrate to you medical yeah like an ADA exception exactly I think we we'll work with the town attorney on it what type of documentation that might be needed I'm sure given the fact that it's medical there's probably some sensitive information and restrictions on the types of things that we can ask yeah that's why I'm saying it doesn't have to come up here to be aired publicly be done by the manager okay so then am I gonna are you making a motion to St this for a second reading on September 18th correct okay can someone make that motion please can somebody make a motion to move to se I make a motion to move resolution 20241 to September 18th wait wait wait wait ordinance 202 2407 07 yes thank you for that okay all in favor I oppose passes five to zero we're on to number 17 it's now 10 o'clock we need to um oh well we can go to 10 10:30 I thought it was 10:15 I don't know all right we'll wait till 10:30 and extend how's that that forget then I forget to yeah 17 anybody I may okay um ordinance number 202 24-8 in ordinance of the Town Council of the town of lahi girl Florida amending chapter 2 Administration article 3 officers and employees division 2 code of ethics section 2- 87 standards of conduct paragraph 10 of the code of ordinances and part five development review procedures and requirements article 120 quasi judicial hearings section 120- 020 expar Communications of the United unified Land Development code of the town of locki grow to provide for procedures regarding holding and disclosure of expert Communications and removing any presumption of prejudice providing for conflict severability codification and an effective date this item was properly advertised however the business impact statement wasn't posted in a timely fashion so we need a motion to move this item to a date in of September [Music] 18th I make a motion to move ordinance 2014-08 to date certain of September 18th second all in favor I I passes 5 to zero we're on to our regular agenda everybody yes okay uh first reading of ordinance 20242 Val an ordinance of the Town Council of the town of locki gr Florida amending chapter 2 Administration Article 2 Town Council by adding a new section 2-20 election qualifying of the lockah hatche Groves code providing for the candidate qualifying period and providing for severability the repeal of laws in conflict codification and an effective date okay Marge you think I'm not sure who had their I'm making a motion so go to March okay um I I think that this should uh read if it's closed for more than one day what do that where are you march I'm on 18 right you know what page what what paragraph what's your where do you want to add that well this doesn't say um a time limit you know it doesn't doesn't break it down one day two days three days closed it does so I'm saying that um this is from the supervisor of elections I think Marge go to letter B on page 296 and it says in the event of a declared emergency during qualifying period the town clerk shall extend the qualifying period for the same number of business days that the town hall was closed does that answer your great takes care of my your okay all righty then I take a motion oh I'm sorry is there a public comment on this no okay I didn't see any so thank you for reminding me okay can I have a motion uh motion to move and approve uh count Town Council ordinance number 2024-25 oppos okay passes five to zero number 15 bow an ordinance of the Town Council of the town of lahi grov Florida calling for a referendum of the qualified electors of the town of lahache groves to be held on March 11 2025 as to whether the town of lockah Hatchi grow Charter shall be amended in the following respect amend paragraph 5 of section 7 elections of the charter for the Palm Beach County canvasing Board to be the town canvasing board for All Uniform Municipal elections for the town providing for notice and advertising of the referendum providing for referendum canvasing and providing for severability the repeal of laws in conflict codification and an effective date have a question okay ask your question um where are the names Laura what do you see them oh there there are no names of the of the the canding board so when will they be chosen um because isn't it the supervisor of election and our town clerk and one other person no County campusing Board is usually the supervisor elections a judge and a county commissioner they change every every election right so that's so so what you're stating is the current process but the palmach County Supervisor of Elections notified the town back in 2021 stating that um they would no longer sit in as the canvasing board along with the staff and so basically we're supposed to kind of opt in having them be our canvasing board so that's what this would allow for no don't we need somebody from our town to be on our canvasing board no um the I mean we've always had somebody from town I think this was actually discussed last year that we were going to go to what the supervisor of elections asked us to do and we weren't able to get this done in time last year that's what I recall and so this is just the standard agreement that all the towns in the county are doing with the supervisor of election this is the way she gets to Pride as the canvasing board and it's all independent through her office that's what I recall call the discussion was last year but we can certainly get you better and we can still have people there you can always people there you can always observe but this is the more efficient manner well right are you done with your comment yes Laura um I don't need to say my comment if we're all okay with this so I make a motion to approve ordinance 2413 second oh second okay all in favor oppose passes five to zero we're on to number 20 woohoo this is a discussion of the Civil citation ordinance so given the hour if you don't wish to discuss this item tonight we can delay it but what I would like to suggest is that in our um marching orders to try to do code enforcement um better quicker cheaper faster um we are finally getting around to a citation ordinance which means that we don't have to send every single one of our infractions to the magistrate to get um an immediate action so for instance let's say that there are cars parked on the street and I'm using a simple problem we can do a citation and hopefully y the sheriff's office will agree to enforce that citation for us great so we can come up with a series of categories of areas where we think a citation and we have done some general work on that where we think a citation would work um more efficiently and faster than an noov and this doesn't go ahead and eliminate the possibility of an noov it just allows us some time frame between 30 to 990 days to try to work it out administratively and to get the find and the um violation to stop happening without going through the magistrate process Glenn if I could have done this any more knowledgeably I hope you'll correct me you got it you got it great make a motion phis yeah so so we what we have to come up with here is we have to figure out how to do the fines for those violations well we also have to change the wording from Wellington which we absolutely consider whether these are our violations corre exactly that's really the big issue so you looking for direction for staff to keep working on this if you like this idea yes um the other thing I want to tell you is is that we cannot go above $500 for the violation so we're really going to be uh a citation so we're really going to be looking at the um up to 250 um as our main categories because the 500 is generally a repeat violation um the other question that I'm also working with our attorneys on is on livestock Wellington has livestock at 250 our actual ordinance um had $2,000 as the violation for not having a permit I think that this will only cover citations for violating bmps and our franchise for the livestock haulers will have the big $2,000 f in it so there will be still a combination of of of tools yeah it looks like a good start to me I would say keep going okay so if anybody has any input yeah yeah just the so similar to the traffic ticket from the light that we went through earlier you can appeal it to the magistrate the same situation and our Magistrate's already set up to handle the same stuff [Music] um but that is these are simple simple like speeding ticket stop sign something that you can cure you probably already did cure right so there's not a per day situation right it's a single event but like a a vehicle so you're going after who owns the vehicle if it's parked in this sale next to the property next to the road you don't go after the property owner you go after the vehicle oh you know we could technically go to both really because the property owner could you know make them move the car about people paring but I know that we had a situation on F Ro for the last couple of weeks where I've receiv received a lot of phone calls for somebody who's doing build there's a number of them if you're in a s in the road you're blocking away they parked a trailer there and kind of everybody Let It Go for the first week or two that it happened when it started running a month I started getting phone calls when even to do something about this so so that was my question like that you ticket them that day you assume it's going to be moved correct right and it's still there the next day the next day another ticket another ticket another ticket same thing with a noise violation remember the dog barking and you can call Animal Rescue they do a citation we can do citations every day I mean it hopefully we don't get to that point but we can yeah hopefully we don't get to that point either um is there a point where Towing enforcement comes into play is that part of this ordinance or Yeah a different we don't have that here we could we could address that in our yeah that would be separate that would require separate you got Post Yeah Towing signs contract we have no code that has we have no code currently that addresses Towing but when we do if we do the recommendations of the agrotourism that we have to look at all of our traffic which is where the parking is then we would uh put Towing in there I think we should have a I mean a to we can start looking at that we can start looking at the towing Towing and parking okay so I think the consensus is keep good job keep going okay need needs more refinement okay now we're back to those consent items that I said we'd be too tired to deal with here we are item number one is first who pulled that one I can't remember that was Robert or Laura robertt okay go ahead yeah I don't agree with four and a half% for a fee I think that is on the highend I know when I pay property taxes and deal with other municipalities use a credit card typically it's been 3% and U I don't understand why the backup if Chris did this research why that's not in here to justify this 4 and a half% and we talked about four we talked about four came out four and a half and I think it should be closer to three would you be happy with 375 I just don't know who Chris reached out to in his research I wish that was I agre that so uh the research was basically your research not yours as the council member but the towns we took the expenses that the credit cards cost the town we divided it uh by the revenues that it brings in from credit cards and that's the percentage that you spend there's a differential between those that pay online like for building permits and those that come in person those that come in person cost more obviously so uh we provided the data the data was I believe four and 3/4 per or there's about you certainly don't have to charge that I mean you charge anything it's more than you're charging now but we were tasked to come up with what does it cost you to accept credit cards and uh that's the cost on average now different credit cards charge different things you know GX is notorious for charging more than Master Card but even within Master Card or VISA you may have differentials and the types of credit cards presented to you and what those uh uh cards charge the uh you know the town so it's basically you know four and 3/4 over the course of 12 months that's what you paid was 4.28 was your composite okay 428 okay so can we all agree on four that's what we were at last time can we agree on four instead of four and a half I'm fine with four four yeah four yeah okay you got four make motion yeah go ahead do we have public comment I don't know do we have any public comment not on this item s agenda like the parot yeah no it's okay make a motion to approve resolution number 2024 d58 and approve the initial sech charge rate of 4% second all in favor I oppose okay item number two who pulled that one that was me okay Laura go all right I this is a qu bra all right this is the question to my Council peoples um there's two and this is just yes or no in the HR manual it says if somebody leaves town Town employment and then for whatever period they're gone they come back and they pick up where they left off for benefits and stuff yes are you okay with that yes or no I'm a no I feel like it's Shoots and Ladders you left you start over I'm just curious what you all think before we pass this is there a time limit Associated two years oh two years sorry may I sure I think it depends on the position and the person and the circumstance that they left right because we need good employees and if they want to come back and they were actually a really good employee because their mother in New England was dying and they had to go up and live with her for x amount of time to take care of her in her dying days but they were such an employee that when they were able to move back to this area we wanted to hire them back then I could see wanting to put them back where they were so I think it's a can we do case by case I think it's a a and I brought this up when I did my HR manual review it's in the HR manual yeah I I don't have it with me I mean I I I too had that concern and I brought this up when I did my HR manual review because you know I can see a circumstance where would be appropriate and I could certainly see a lot but see my my other thought was if they weren't if they were a note head and they come back right but we wouldn't rehire them yeah presumably we wouldn't rehire the noad right presumably I mean presumably so that was kind of I I dithered around that how long do we keep uh reviews of these employees that left oh forever electronic a long time let me let me put it this way if we were offering Cobra which we don't okay um Cobra is an 18month period And if anybody doesn't know what Cobra is it's being able to stay on the health insurance plan and under the state of Florida mini Cobra plan even though we don't offer COBRA they can still call the State of Florida and have 18 months of health insurance why because 18 months and two years are reasonable time frames for people to take care of you know significant right significant issues in their life so I really don't feel uncomfortable with two years because we would only be wanting to hire back somebody very good and if it was iffy um if you wanted to change it to up to two years I don't mind having the discretion on that do they go through a probationary period again everybody goes through probation again so everybody goes through probation again good with that so they have already left been paid for all their time off nope nope they wouldn't get paid for time off you have to be here five years to get paid for time off well what if they worked here for more than five years ago nobody's worked here eventually somebody will be here let's start praying now but they'll start back at the same salary acral rate they may not start back at the same salary in fact we had an employee who was here when he came back he did not start at the same salary he was at we put him into the salary of the position classification he was hired back at which was a lower salary than when he left so the only thing in question is really the sick time acral rate correct that is it PTO acral rate do they yeah start over again at 120 or do they pick it up at 1446 or 180 right that's the question that's really it that's the only issue because health insurance they you know if we're offering it they start again and you know and are they allowed to come back a third time I asked the county had a rule I don't know if it's still um you know this one time this is our this we we we have two we have two rehires we have one rehire who has gone a very long time at the county more than two years he started Fresh then we had another rehire who um was gone a very short time and he came back at a lower salary and he was still in the same acral period because don't forget 0er to two same acral period yeah so I mean I'm under under the circumstances okay go ahead public comment we have a public comment Miss sorry I'm gonna make a motion to extend the meeting you second in Cassie sui um sorry um I was looking at the the vacation hours and the time and the way you acrw it and I made a suggestion but I guess in all the stuff we were doing and all the comments that came out it never got looked at um I know that I was looking at the chart and it's 0 to 2 years 120 3 to 6 140 7 to 9 160 and it seems very confusing and I know that there's other places that do like an eight hours a month for vacation 8 hours for six so they get 96 hours a year if at the end of the year they and it rewards good behavior because if at the end of the year they have not taken any sick days they can actually add six more days to their vacation if they haven't taken any sick days and if they've taken one sick day then they get five so it gives them a reward for working and coming to work every day it kind of takes out all this 0 to2 3 to 6 5 to four it's 96 hours and then at the end of whatever separation they get I don't know what you pay them I think it was 80 hours they can take 80 hours at separation and then most people in that are over their bank will just use it right before they leave or retire or whatever so it might be easier than I know it's in the zero hour and I know I brought it up a couple times but it might be easier to do like a standard reward them for coming to work and not calling in sick and then it's kind of a benefit to come to work and then they get six extra days of vacation that year so instead of the 96 they're getting six extra you know so they now they got it they got something to look forward in it's kind of a reward so I just wanted to bring it up so it makes it standard across the board eight eight hours a month for sick eight hours for vacation it's just a thought and it might make make your bookkeeping easier and give a reward for good behavior type thing well I just want to say thank you for your comments because I did look at all of them and I think that if we went to eight and eight that would be a larger number than we give right now because right now we give a total of 10 hours a month for sick and vacation so if we were doing eight and eight that would be 16 a month I thought you were giving eight what we give 10 hours a month and it it's for both sick and vacation so the maximum is 10 hours if we did eight and eight that would be 16 hours so it's actually simpler this way and I did share with a number of council people that we looked at oh gosh probably about 30 employee manuals and looked at how everybody does sick and vacation and um no need to worry we're even low we're still we're still lower than than most places so all right if the person I can't even remember at this point who pulled this but are you satisfied with that that yes okay um it was me who pulled more after that okay but okay we're ready to make a motion go ahead um yeah I I'm not thrilled with it but it's obviously going to pass without my vote so that's okay okay um all right can we we have to make the motion and pass it well she has one have one more in the HR manual yes one more question I'm sorry okay realize sorry getting tired that's all right hey it's still before midnight all right page 53 Section 8 um at separation Town employees with at least five years of continuous service words words words shall be paid one half of their serious illness leave bank balance with a maximum potential of 240 hours it's something likely to occur hey well true because there's only one and you don't count as an employee so I I just it seems like a lot um it seems and it's something I brought up because you know remember when we um had the mass Exodus before the we were dissolving the water control we were and this is what I brought up when I did my HR review I said contingent liability I'm I'm definitely concerned about because we were hit with 54 56,000 worth of pay that we had to benefits that we had to pay out like then when all those people left who had all been there for 20 years and 30 years and all that kind of stuff um so it's it's easy right now because we're not in that situation and not even in the firstable future but we're putting it in the HR manual for the future can we revisit it and see what the acral looks like I think that something to go ahead and pass it with it in because it's not going to affect us next year actually for like two or three years but that it's that yeah but it's something that we all have a that some of but you can't forget about it we won't forget about it because a manual actually does need to be updated every two to five years right I have one legal question if we're going to if we're going to defer this and you know look at it a couple years down the road what happens when we have people who are and I'm thinking of like the CNN lawsuit that went on for many moons when they just asked all of their aging out employees and they're like don't need you anymore cuz they didn't want to pay all the benefits stuff so what happens when we go to review this 240 and we have a couple people who are a close-ish can they throw up their arms and be like oh my God you're discriminating against us how does that work if they've been here five years and then you change it after they've meet reached this they're gonna have a claim I don't know if it's a good claim but they're gonna make a claim they're gonna throw up their arms and say wait I've been here for five years I thought that if I left after five years I'll get this up to 240 so you know if you're going to change it change it before anybody reaches five years change it to 120 or I I'd feel comfortable changing it now let's change it now and then you know it f fact is fact any Council can change anything that any Council has done period change it to 120 120 done okay consensus oh well this is uh the 240 is um sick leave and so forth that they haven't used right no it's the serious medical illness Bank yeah but you get it from not using it so you get Bank it by not using what so let me just um reiterate something one or the other of you explain how this 240 is built yes to encourage vacation we're requiring everybody to take 40 hours a year in order to carry forward 80 hours if you wish to move the excess hours into your major illness time to build up for let's say you're going to have a baby let's say who knows you never know Co might come again and you need Cho chemo right whatever um you build up a bank that you can use for a serious illness and a serious illness isn't the same as a sick day a serious illness is like I've got to go get chemo once or a dialysis that kind of thing you're going to have a more serious illness to be able to use that time but we don't want to lose you as an employee and we certainly don't want to dock your pay to get medical treatment that you you need and we don't have family medical leave act so that's what this is people can carry over vacation their own time and build it up to be able to use it as a rainy day insurance policy in case they're going to be sick so the paying it out after five years whether it's 120 or 240 so it accumulates from unused vacation after 40 yeah after you take 40 hours you can move you can carry forward hours and you can put them into the leave bank and the payout is half of the 240 only if you leave after five years and it would be maximum of 120 hours so that's half of the 240 okay so that's your half that you're giving up well the the rule is you're giving it up yeah when you're leaving yeah leaving if you're leaving you're giving it up if you're staying you can use it if you get sick yeah okay I mean the point of it is to give you something in case you get sick not a savings account right yeah can we approve this with this one change yeah please go right ahead um make motion to move that the Town Council adopt resolution the 2024 HR PM for the town of lock hatche Groves with the change for 120 hours second all in favor I oppose oppose okay passes four to one okay we um I think we might have already covered number five inadvertently but yes um Laura was you that pulled it Mar was going to pull it too okay I think we covered number five however when we did the other so you're okay with just approving it now yeah okay I got a question oh Robert's got a question now go ahead yeah there's like appears to be a typo here where which one um there's two public service worker ones oh they're real people and I put them both here so we could count um but they have the same pay range just like there's two general service workers and one is part time was listed on here as one I but to make sure that we had the right number of people in the payroll and on this pay plan I've gone back and recounted this multiple times with names on it oh so we actually had two of them and we actually had two of them and this thing was wrong when it had one it so now I'm doubly confused because we were told there was three crews each crew had three people but the mowing crew is being reduced to two and a half a part-time person so that equaled nine people which we had and one of them part-time now I think that the general service workers listed on here two times I think we have one and it's a part-time okay that's that's what it is thank you BS sorry takes the GS okay I I apologize I still made a mistake okay so all right the numbers work now all right yeah I apologize you're right it's three threes and one goes to two and a half yeah are you okay now to make motion three twos two ones and a half over GSW okay are you okay to make the motion now yeah okay go make a motion uh to approve resolution approving the townwide pay plan by clarification and position second all in favor I oppos passes five to zero okay updates items of interest in future agenda item I have none hang on I haven't called on you yet this is the main anything and because of the lateness of hour please take a look at it we've changed September 18th removing a bunch of stuff I did want to also tell you that um we um Mario resigned oh Mario because we were able to hire um a qualified um part-time code enforcement officer I think last Thursday and I think they start this Thursday so is that reflected in these yes it's still part-time okay um is it a they or a it's a it's a he his name is John Suarez he lives in the acreage he previously worked for Palm Beach County and he was out in the acreage area so he's familiar with uh yes and he has all four of the code enforcement certifications in addition um it was recommended to me and I don't know if you all know this but Craig has been doing a lot of code enforcement for us so I am going to um have him certified so that he can have certified so he can continue yeah so he can continue to do the flood plane uh you know the the so I don't have to send Richard out on every single one of the code complaints that we get relative to Public Works says a backup good idea so those are my big conversations and also we're going to start practice where we send you out a little notice about who has resigned and who is taking their place even if they're temporary and right now the two ladies at the front desk are Angela who is temporary pending the budget um and Sandra and um I will make sure they wear name tags but sra's not temporary no she's permanent yes she's permanent um Samy Brown is doing some double duty as code specialist magistrate person and also assisting our clerk we changed the position he's also temporary until the budget is approved he seems to be a he's amazing person that can handle many tasks he is he's a very very he's another jack knife and sorry Swiss knife and a jack whatever um whatever so yeah slate I'm done I just wanted to tell you in case you haven't met everybody please come in and I also want to thank I want to thank Wilbur um for hanging out for our last couple Council meetings I think that he we need to recognize him as um a leader on our team um he came to us from the county we got very experienced people this time around and and he takes this information back to the staff and I think um one of the things we want to do with Council and the community and our employees is during government week which is in October I ordered us stickers yeah we have them too so we've got double 200 yeah we've got a lot um we want to do something where you know we have um something between staff and Council so everybody gets to know each other a little bit better and we want to do something um for the town so that everybody understands what each one of our functions does and you know how how we all work together so I'm the chili cook off yeah no we can do it that week gonna do founders day we were gonna do that but that's on next the 18th agenda to talk about special events all right this thing here needs to be blown up and hung outside because we can't keep track or I can't keep track well I think it's going to be on I think it's going to stay the same now because I think we've made you know our final um well musical chairs we need this place someplace yeah you're throwing out names I'm trying know I know I'm trying to say we need to we need to do a better job on that so thank you and good night okay Phyllis any closing comments or now you can say I don't have anything to say you would like that would but I don't believe that you said it a minute ago but um I'm not vied no I'm I'm sad we don't have our community conversation anymore where the town I think we just didn't have it for the budget things I'm not saying that we're not having it I don't know all of a sudden why have why didn't we have it this at this because this was the first of the month council meeting we had Community conversation there were no public comments and if but only but we weren't allowed to interact with them well then we didn't recognize that it was Community comments so that needs it's on the agenda agenda it was it is on the agenda yeah I understand that but we used to have a section in the agenda that specifically said this is the community interaction Community conversation or whatever and yeah and we do that is not here any longer so we need to make sure that's included in the first because it's important we took it out of workshops because we had like something we had to get done there but it's important to put it in our regular council meeting yeah it's on the cover we'll put it back on the agenda thank you thank you thank you thank you okay and um what's the second [Music] thing um I can't I can't think what my second thing was light up so Laura um thank you all for what you do and what you put up with and dragging us through um I think it kind of goes both ways um good steps good progress here on this really fat agenda that I thought was going to be Not So Pro not so good so yay yay team uh congratulations to jack on his retirement from the Village of Wellington I don't know if he's still here or not um and welcome think you retired yeah and I had a third thing and I'm drawing a blank so back to yout yeah I want to see we kind of threw out hiring um in-house attorney and I saw some numbers for some salaries and benefits and the cost savings that I thought was there isn't there when you added those numbers up so I'd like to see a little bit more of an analysis on uh on what we budgeted for our attorney if there's a different model the the reason I support is I don't like to see oh all these different attorneys sitting at all these meetings knowing that we're paying you know a lot of money for them to sit there and I'm not asking anybody obviously you do anything for free but if there's a better model of fixed fees something that or some kind of a hybrid yeah something remember we said it was open to negotiation yeah something that um right now I'm not comfortable with with any I don't even know where we're going right now but we just made a budget and there's numbers in it so somehow the numbers need to work out or change if if uh things change if they change you may change other places I mean we've budgeted the attorneys at $175 and $200,000 and it's been more like three or $400,000 for the last couple years so if it if it needs to be adjusted then that's I mean so I'd like to see some kind of numbers um just looking at attorney for the next meeting you know because it all Blends in because there's multiple different departments that we're carrying cost we could do a little bit of a cost analysis on what we really think we could save in and all the different places thatne contract it's up for Renewal I know it's so Mr tvia um had suggested that we try to um meet with each council person um I don't know if you wish to do that and I also don't want to talk for Mr tvia or Mr Curts because I mean I'm happy to help you get the information you want but they are the owners of that info so you Glen Jeff individual councel yes yeah and that way we could talk through whatever the mechanics are and I can set those all up for everybody if you would like that great yep sounds okay and I will do it I will try to get it done this week so that can if that works honestly I think that we need what Robert's suggesting which is a breakdown of all the places all the little hidden okay niches and Pockets where we're paying legal fees prior to us having any meetings so problem before the meetings I think we need some kind of a real you know you're asking us to make a decision but we need a real analysis of where we're where we're and not what's budgeted but what's actually being SP what's being built and absolutely do we have numbers of trying to think of how to spit this out so I would imagine that a town like boka can have their own in-house attorney period end of topic they probably have more than one um yeah can we afford that or you know like you guys were saying a hybrid a situation specific a you know better way to skin the cat because I went through one of the um the quarterly reports and this was I think it was April May June yeah April May and June your firm cranked out something like six ordinances 19 resolutions attended how many magistrate meetings you know watered the plants EI EO it went on and on and on and I'm like Partridge and it tree too like holy Christmas you all have what 10 or 11 people and there's what four that kind of rotate through here regularly yes it's a lot of work it's a lot it's a lot of work so yeah I look forward to the discussion and Analysis and numbers I do sorry thank you um thank you Robert Marge before I go to you I'm so sorry guys I'm super tired that I skipped over um Town manager Town attorney Public Works director clerk comments nothing from any of you okay sorry I have to respond to councilwoman herzo who's on first the answer is I don't know Third Base um and what's on What's On Second um there's an Upstate update on form one form six uh nothing dramatic other than the federal judge has scheduled November 8th is the day that all the lawyers have to get in all their documents that so that he can start beginning to make a decision or she can start making a decision so there'll probably be a hearing sometime late in the year after November 8 so there's really nothing will happen before November 8th anytime from November 8 till December January February there'll probably be a hearing and then there'll probably be a ruling so I'll keep you updated but that's the latest news that order just came out from that federal judge uh last day or two um and finally obviously welcome any conversation in terms of how you want to structure T attorney I've got lot of ideas a lot of experience in that I've been on both sides of that issue I've done studies for both the school board in Wellington where I encourage them to go in-house um was involved when Lorie cooh became the in-house lawyer there in Wellington and in the other side of the coin both Green Acres in Lake Worth went from inhouse to outside and saved money and thought it was a better product so it it is something worth studying you know there's 39 cities in Palm Beach County only six have in-house offices and those are the big big cities say 39 cities six have in house attorneys West Palm bokeh Buon Del re uh River Beach is the smallest one but Rivier beach has their own police fire water department Beach and Marina um so you know they all have it was interesting I was looking at the pach county League of cities booklet you know five out of those six cities are 20 times or more bigger than locki Groves is their population is all over 60,000 people where's our sign ordinance you sent it to ulc and they had their first meeting I'm saying that we were supposed to get that a couple of years ago so not super happy I'm just one I'm not I'm not going to talk in terms of who's The Firm that you use I think your analysis needs to be and it's not Jeff or Glenn or Mike or Sam it's got to me your analysis got to be is what is the most cost-effective way for you to get your services um and what model do you use right is it a hybrid model is it something where you hire a staff attorney to do day in and day out stuff and you have an outside firm to assist do you have you know there's a lot of different models and I'll be happy to chat about any of those models whatever works best for you but um I'll caution you don't think you're gonna get cost savings unless the town changes the way your expectations are and what you want you ask about the sign ordinance you can ask about different ordinances ordinances come back to the council often times two three four five times they go on a shelf they come back that's not directed by our office so you know we'll do as much work as you all send to us and you send a lot of work as you just said you look at those quarterly reports there's a you I think you spent $100,000 more than you should be frankly I think you you spend too much on lawyers but that's not the lawyer's fault whether it's me or Jeff or another firm it's because you generate a lot of work you have a lot of issues Agri tourism is a big issue right what are you doing you inherited zoning codes from Palm Beach County almost 20 years ago and have you ever really sat down and done a study on all your your zoning codes and how are they going to change to fit this community that's a big project but meanwhile you got a lot of peac meal stuff going on so there's lots and lots of solutions there's no nothing negative here it's just it's a how do you want to structure your legal services you know in the most coste effective way because I've heard from all of you that cost is important um and it's it's not a one- siiz fits-all kind of a solution but an inh house attorney you're always going to spend money on outside Warriors there's no one in attorney that can do anything everything for any City just too much uh for any person to handle okay anybody else on staff that I skipped over that needs to say something oh just really quick I give you update on the paving project the contractor was supposed to start uh mobilizing this week for 160 person yeah 161st and the other six roads um and then once they they're going to do their final grading and compacting all that stuff and then once they do that they'll start Paving the roads and in theory by the end of October they should be done thank you and what about preparation of a um cra's looking away looking at the back of the so we have um we got the purchase order to the surveyors because we want to survey where the edge of the easements are going to be so we know exactly what work needs to be done um they are currently finding their control points right now so they can begin laying that out I should be getting a call this week probably to set up uh time to go out there and start um you know putting all the survey marks in on collecting canal and a road so we know exactly where the road is supposed to be and then we're going to start on the Canal bank and work our way down one issue that's come up is that um there may be residents that wish for us to either relocate or replace their fence that was a big issue in one of our earlier projects a number of years ago so I just want to let you know that internally what I have said is no so I don't know if that's going to be an issue or not but I know it was in the past they're getting the surveys done so they can get the agement that's what he just said well not only that I'm also waiting for the checklist to be completed that's not the okay the issue is that we don't have anything talk about we get that survey and we can tell them okay this is where you're going all right excellent 161 I drove down there it's been a couple weeks yeah the wash but there's an acacia tree on the east side about 3/4 of the way down just this four or 6 inch one look like was going to be like within a foot of the paving and get all but I was surprised to see that there with all the work that we had done in those took the advice if we can take it down ourselves instead keeping that $6,000 a month machine for another week or so oh I did think of something else um the application period for the rural infrastructure fund is open and we need to put our applications in by next week and um if I could just get a consensus from you that I can sign the um the grant um application okay we money did you find out about the tree grant for me I have not got the update on that yet to do another motion to extend thank make a motion to extend second okay in favor I'm not now am I that I skipped over I apologize profusely Marge okay last step Council okay um I forgot that easements are are we um progressing with uh getting them yes yes okay um glad to see the HR manual has finally uh been uh voted on and possibly put to bed um the the lobbyist we had talked about um having a group work on the uh the FEMA Grant any any update on that I think that well we just reached out to follow up again on a couple of different grants with the lobbyist and you heard me say earlier tonight that I was going to set up a meeting with um Miss sish Miss sui Miss tropey and FMA and our lobbyist so they can all be in the same room instead of working through a third party um glad to hear that uh 161st is finally getting um worked on and uh ready for the uh the paving and anxious to see the uh the other items that we've been struggling with the first phase of all roads completed letter roads all right that's all okay I got a couple things um so they just came out with New Roads and we are for leaning okobi is on there so I'd like to request um they get consensus from Council that staff compos a letter strongly objecting to the for leaning of oovi that that I would sign as mayor um so that that is registered early and strongly so how does everybody feel about yes yes where did that come out of the TPA so it's too late to go to the meeting and state our case we missed the meeting it's 2050 is when it's on I mean it's it's a future thing oh okay yeah it's on for 2015 it's not on for this year but I'm stating the case actually 20 30 years ahead of time but I but I think that it's important for us to take every opportunity to put our vote to be vocal about our opposition to poing okobi is everybody okay with yeah our opposition to we have some gra verbage okay so if you could do that that would be great and I'll sign it I just want to confirm that the uh ordinance clarification regarding building Heights language Glenn will be ready for the um September 18th so that there is no confusion on anybody's part about what our building height restriction is in the town okay forward those building Heights haven't changed in at least three four years but oh well there seems to be some confusion and there seems to be some misunderstanding and we if we we had directed it back to your office for clarification so I want to make sure that that's on the September 18th agenda it is my understanding from your office that the clarification of the lockart storage will be ready for the next agenda yeah I mean a draft of it today for Lockard or least for storage buildings for storage buildings there seems to be a lot no I don't think it was for storage building was just for that project and see it we're still and it was the way it was measured too what was the yeah Robert that was what we changed was I think the definition of how it was measured we may have screwed up and not changed the height no we we may have changed the reference point so I want to make sure that that's on there it's clear because it's still rattling around with a lot of misunderstanding of what our or memo on that okay clearly since we have five people with four different understandings up here of what what it is um the other thing that I wanted to bring up possibly for discussion at our next meeting but um request that um so I had a call from um a member of our fa committee um requesting that they um meet more frequently um and that they perhaps have meetings here in town hall um without staff but recorded and with an agenda and publicly noticed so it's still you know meeting in the sunshine that that people could come to um but so that they could start doing the work for um some some kind of analysis of our of different areas of the budget that they basically felt they didn't have time to do this year they want to start now for next year but I only heard from one member fact because that's what who I heard from so what I thought would be a good start starting place for us to have a discussion of how this might occur what it might look like um if we even want to consider it um would be for to have perhaps Bren pull all of the members up back and see how much time they are willing to put into a project like this to to Warrant these additional meetings beyond their quarterly meetings in other words I heard from one person that they're willing to come in every weekend if needed and spend all day Saturday here like that you know this one person is very eager to put in extra time and effort and whatever but I think that before we um try to structure that we need to take a look at what all five or at least a quorum of members are willing to do so is it okay with everybody at friending calls or or is this something everybody even wants to consider or yes I they should discuss it at their next quarterly meeting which is coming up when in December but they wanted to start it would be November yeah they wanted to start now um so that's why I'm suggesting that that we that she pull and see if everybody else of the committee is in the same mind frame that they need to start now or do we want to say wait they can discuss it in November and then we can talk about it moving forward what required well the person who I spoke to is saying n other than I'm asking the attorney you're having a sunsh got to have minutes well that that also thought that fact should be taken out of the sunshine but I understand from Mr tvia that's not even in the no that's that's not even in the realm of options so I'm sorry I I think they should meet in October so that when we meet in November the chair can come and say all right we tried it this is what worked this is what didn'ts is our brand new year yeah let yeah let back meet in no in October because our we have one meeting in November and one in December so let them get one out of their system and see how it went how it goes what happens is our fisc year closes September 30th and then um we try to get all the relevant information because we're still getting bills in from that time period um and so you don't have good numbers to review for the final quarter until um November the final quarter versus the last 11 months meaning if they met meaning if they met in October they would only not have stuff for September so they could look at at an 11mon run versus a complete quarter I'm not opposed to you polling that was your question right and I think I I think the polling is a good idea and then when we come back either even I mean even in October 1 we can discuss whether we let them meet we we we whether them meeting in October again it's even something any of them want to do I mean it may just be the one person talking to me and they not may not there may be no interest in any of the others and they can't have a forum so this is a moood point anyhow so that's why I thought having Francine poll the members would be the way to go I I mean they can me is they they they can there's they could they could correct down to that right they want to stay motivated correct yeah I mean they don't have to do that as fact in fact I think in fact they couldn't have I think you would actually have to change your resolution because your resolution doesn't give them this Authority and if you're giving them that Authority correct right we have to totally change everything absolutely so what we do is we pull them and see how often they would be able to meet or what the time frames that they would be able to me they see the scope of the need being to as well again I'm hearing from one person so I'd be interested in what everybody else than to one staff member to take minutes no they they they're they're claiming that they would record it and take their so then it's costing money and then I'm opposed to it so we'll see but again let's see if there's really the let's take it baby steps that's why I suggested the polling to see whether it's like you even have a quum maybe two members want to do it but the other three don't whatever so well you know I actually think what we really need to do since and and I don't know if you guys realize how rare this is but we have given everybody complete access to our financial accounting system and in the financial accounting system we have the purchase holders the invoices in the contracts so what we really need to do is teach people how to use the blackbot because if they were able to do the drill down or run the reports then they could like find stuff and talk about it now I don't want to call any of you out but there have been Council people over the years that are extremely Savvy at pulling stuff out of the system and running reports and bringing stuff to me and talking to me about it some that are not even on the council anymore so it's not hard and I think it's just the ability to know what you're looking for and maybe what we need to do is get the better training for the group and they would feel more comfortable with what's in there just a thought maybe that could be part of your polling would you going to ask if you don't mind is this a blackb report or a spreadsheet it is a spreadsheet however the numbers that are in there are from are from blackbot can you export them or do you have to you may export all of them and we have a couple of reports in there by and they're labeled by year and if you run any of the reports called b2a it's three letters b2a and it has year next to it you get the whole year by month budget to actual for every account by fund good yeah my my last point that I would like to cover is I'd like to dispel an urban legend so I made the mistake and I I never comment on Facebook but I made the mistake of someone commented about the power aage and we have had on my end of town a ridiculous amount of excessive power outages this summer are you underground no um we have had a ridiculous amount and I mean like I every time it happens as it did this week and for the entire day I'm so grateful that I spent that money and put that generator you have no idea because would have been panicking to water my horses otherwise and everything else but anyhow um so the comment was put on Facebook about you know it's again Bel and I and I made the innocent I thought innocent comment of yeah it seems like it's been really bad this summer worse than than I can remember since moving out here to which I the response was um well if the te something along the loans and I'm paraphrasing not direct quoting something along the lines of yeah well we'd all have underground power if the town wasn't playing games with fpnl and caused them to leave so I would like to know from somebody the circumstances of why f p&l abandoned their underground project here in town and then actually somebody did comment back who does have underground and said yeah well we our power is out too so apparently it doesn't matter whether you're underground or not when a main line goes out which is what this situation was so um again the urban legend is that the town drove SPNL out of town and I would like to know where that possibly comes from or what the factual situation is or if fact that's true did we drive them did we send them packing like to know what the answer to that is does anybody have an answer for me we actually met with fpnl month ago two months ago um over on 43rd U to discuss other issues um and we asked them that specific question and what they told us is they were rocking and rolling through the town and then they got stopped because residents wouldn't give them easements and um we and actually and and um so anybody the town it had to do with residence oh it's residence residence it's specific residence it's spe yeah specific residence that wouldn't give easements and fpl's like well if we can't do the whole line then we're not going to do any of it because there's no sense of going all the way to here stopping going aerial across and back down and I mean that and that's their philosophy um now one thing I will say is that Craig and I have worked very diligently with Florida plus and flicker to make sure that um they are trimming their lines and if you go down to 161st you will notice that the uh tree coverage covering all the power lines and power poles have been greatly reduced um because of our efforts of harassing them to get them to cut their lines and now they're starting to go around the rest of the town I be cut well no they're cutting their lines too that's what you about no they're also cutting the lines too so they're yeah but no they're and they're actually going on North Road right now um replacing poles and doing some other stuff so they are doing upper North Upper North okay well maybe that's why we lost the power Al low very well could be it may not even be within the the power loss may not even be within Loach grov because you know come obviously comes from outside so if they had a substation issue or anything like that I mean honestly I have no idea why your power was out but um we have been working diligently with them to get them to cut their trees um around their power lines so that you know they stop catching on fire and having other issues so um we are working to get them to get better they have when we met with them to discuss the issues on 43rd um one part of those conversation is when are you guys going to start doing the undergrounding and they said well we're reaching back out to these residents to see if they'll give us these on well no they're still trying to they still want to underground they still want to do it because it's all part of their hurricane hardening and the hurricane the whole point of the hurricane of the undergrounding as part of the hurricane hardening is that that during a hurricane they don't have to come out here and try to get into people's yards because if you notice on some of these roads like d is a good example for some reason the power poles are 50 feet into people's yards so if FPL wants to come out and fix it they've got to go and transverse into people's yards so by undergrounding everything when the if power lines fall they're not going to fall out of the sky they're gon you know because they're not going to be in there anymore um that's why they're doing the undergrounding portions where they are because they're not doing that everywhere like across the street they didn't underground they replaced poles well I mean I knew there was some dispute over roads that they had damaged when doing the undergrounding and everything and I just wanted to have in my mind a clear so we didn't run them out on the rails they they chose to leave because they were having some roadblocks with easement but it's not completely abandoned it's still a live project oh is on their yeah it's still on their list okay Madame mayor um in addition to the letters that we sent them we have all been working on them but um relative to fact versus urban legend fpnl came here and they were in a public meeting told us why they left town and it wasn't because of staff and they also said that once you fall off their schedule once you fall off their project schedule they have to find a way to get you back on and they can't do it quickly when I last spoke which it was like maybe two or three weeks ago with fpnl they were trying to get us programmed back in and furthermore we are unfortunately on a three-year maintenance schedule which looks like it's been more like 10 um and they are talking to their maintenance people about trying to get us on a shorter maintenance schedule because we are a different community and have far more Lush foliage and to be clear I didn't say sta the person no I understand I get it no no I I get that and I just wanted to say it was all stated in a public meeting by FPL and they are working Dil ently with us on trying to improve a few things but it does it takes a minute unfortunately correct yes on that or does it have to become a project for them to work on the e um I think it's a combination of both and in addition to that one of their other issues was um they had worked through North B Road um and so that's back on their radar working on North B road because there's no reason they shouldn't be able to you know are these EAS the same ones that Richard's having trouble um there there there are some yes there's there's there's a certain property owner there yeah but and to add to that we're also working with AT&T and cast for example on 11 the last 40 years everybody's been driving around the same power bolt well we got AT&T to move the poll so now we're getting Comcast to transfer their utilities over so then we can remove the polls and actually people are driving around telepone so our next goal is c yeah good luck with that okay can I have a motion to during this meeting Goodbody I appr all your comments and I do agree with you it is defin that's you get through it's not always pretty