[Music] order this is what is the date today 14th Friday March 14th Friday by day everyone and it's about 6 36 636 okay to my so in present are an Harrison Susan Mish myself Chris only Richard Smith Denny H um Mark Resnik is here and Sandy B and Michaels yep I'm here think is still in New Zealand I think he's in the air yes in the air yeah that me he's flying o see not P but we don't know okay so let's get started here uh Gail will not be present so we just going to have to wing it ourselves um first of the gender's acknowledgement that received correspondence and I believe we had a letter from Don P the only correspondence under um any have any comments on correspondence let's move on to the meat of the program tonight which is Emily and more modeling and I hope we can actually start pinning down some of these districts yes um good evening nice to you that with all of you I am going to share my screen very briefly so I have two pieces of modeling for you tonight one is uh your requests from our last meeting um and the second is uh Mark had asked me to do some additional modding or ask us to do some additional modeling so I am going to show you the first uh your request first and then um oh somebody needs to let me share my screen where where's this being hosted I guess it's from did anyone sign in no no one has signed in I'm doing that okay well to give up my laptop to do it well um while you do that and thank you very much I'll just walk you through that we had been asked to do um a set of requested scenarios and come to um some options that were minimally compliant so I can show you that and addition um at the risk of sort of jumping ahead of things from the districts that Mark asked us to um model we do have a potentially compliant district there as well certainly compliant geographically um I'll show you the conditions under which it is currently also compliant in terms of unit capacity and um uh density so um so I'll show you the numbers in a little bit but we uh used um the existing zoning to do the original um models um and we have um three scenarios under that and then we have modified models for two of the scenarios uh that show Geographic compliance to see if we can come to a unit capacity and density requirement um and so we have two uh minimal compliance there and then as I said there is a final scenario that is also so compliant uh in all three areas with that having some user errors that's fair enough so I'll just keep going and catch up with the numbers uh and uh showing you the first scenario for um I do love the um the first scenario for compliance was modifi lower Street wait minute okay all right let me see if I can uh sh no I haven't gotten that got that far okay so the first find you oh of course that doesn't work right because I'm at the top for me but I can't tell you where I am for you um the joys of Zoom Emily you're talking off the pre-meeting package with March for I am yes so if you have that with scenario one minimum compliance okay you should be able to SH now beautiful thank you Sarah yes perfect so for those of you at home who may well for here rather who have the preting packet that's what I'm working off of uh with an addition at the end that you haven't seen yet because it was finished approximately an hour ago um so the first of the requested scenarios from the last meeting that we had together um these are the zoning parameters and the modifications we made for the scenario tests you've seen these before so we're using d-2 G and the LCD for the LCD we're using the same minimum lot size for our residential tests as in the other two districts because the minimum lot size for businesses 5 Acres we're also carrying over the parking spaces everything else is as it is in the zoning so our first test for minimum compliance on the scenario one was the modified lower Pine Street that we talked at the last meeting more Sal Mill powderhouse Elm Street um station area tests were good for the Acres within the station area and just as a reminder for people we're looking at the targets down here we're good for the final unit capacity for the station area great for the total number of Acres great for the final unit capacity great for the dwelling units per acre this is obviously not the minimally compliant scenario um but we also meet uh test to which is the contiguity test scenario two which is also compliant same thing uh We've dropped the modified lower Pine Street we've added the Valentine District so we have more saw m poter house Valentine meet all the station area requirements ad Mac and Med Center meet all the other requirements but again we're we're over in units and well over in units and density meeting contiguity three we were asked to do lower Pine more Street more Sawmill Cotter house ad Brook Desmond and just the medical center so not the mat um that is compliant for station area test for total we've got well over the number of units we need based on this but the contiguity requirement is not met so this is geographically not compliant just to be sure I understand yes the continuity requirement um in the red is a moving Target essentially yes it's 50% of your whatever you come up with yes yes and that that's why we we do it with every single test is because it's that moving and that's a great question so then we said okay let's put a side three because we know it's not compliant geographically let's see how close we can come to your minimum requirements and scenarios one and two um so we've changed the zoning parameters um and one thing that we did actually the first thing that we did for scenario 1A is we changed the minimum lot size for the LCD took five acres and we put a maximum dwelling units per acre on it so we heard I heard at the last meeting that uh there was some concern about how many units might be developed on the parcels under the ex those Parcels under the existing what that does for us is it brings it down to we're still well within the station area test that's not a problem itself uh we still meet the total Acres we are just above at 574 units um just above your required unit capacity of 559 and at 16.64 dwelling units per acre we are just above your 15 bling units per acre and of course we still meet the continuity test so with those changes we get to that yes I have one question if you could go back one slide so those are the parameters that we put into the model so does that essentially mean that any law in the General District for example that's smaller than 6,000 square feet just falls out correct and those so it Remains the Same and that's the end of that yes and that's a good point so I did not change the zoning parameters for D2 and G from the original modeling so but your um uh question on the 6,000 square feet and it's true of any of these districts it's true of your existing zoning if you have a lot size that is lower than the minimum lot size it's considered to be a non-conforming lot under the model that is rejected and that lot is not modeled um you're you're indicating here that 40% is the minimum for structures I'm assuming that's the maximum that's what our zoning is um yes sorry that should have been maximum yes there are two of us working on this yes thank you um and that's how it was put into the model just so you know it's a typo of of words rather than the model yes um so scenario 2A um we so you know you see that you more let me just back to one a um back up to 1A you you meet the requirements you still have quite a lot of unit capacity in uh the station area test so one of the thoughts was can we push that downwards even further so scenario 2A we've made um four changes the five acres and the 12 dwelling units per acre that we did um the the first time and then we also put a maximum dwelling units per acre on D2 and G and this was really to see just how close could we get um I realize that 28 is uh more than 15 and so there're probably some people going well why didn't you just limit it to 15 and the reason we didn't do that is because you wouldn't have made your numbers we tried um a number of uh or we tried several options uh in the model um to go back and forth so with this uh and remember this was more Sawmill powderhouse El Street and Valentine instead of lower Pine Street you meet the stationary a test we we have a slightly lower um uh let me just double actually it's slightly higher sorry this this wasn't to see how low we could go this was a valentine change my apologies I'm I'm thinking of another test we tried um you're still a little this one you're a little bit above um uh what you had before uh so you still have some additional capacity over the of 559 you're a little bit higher in density that's just because Valentine and um lower Pine Street have uh different characteristics but the point is you are still compliant um in all respects with this particular District now we did do a scenario four and Mark um what I think I might do is just stop and see if anybody has questions on this first round then let you talk about the geography and then I can talk about what it looks like in terms of the model but if anybody has any questions on these first three I'm happy to answer them before turning it over tomorrow so I have a question CH uh so the 28 units per acre maximum limit is that sort of typical for zoning language and language say that you can do no more than 28 units per acre yeah you you can put that in as one there there are a couple of ways to restrict um the the number of dwelling units per acre on a lot or the number of dwelling units that an individual lot can have that is one of them that is possible to do um uh I actually started at let's see when I was modeling this I kind of started I knew 15 wouldn't works I think I started at 20 and just kind of kept going up and down to see what the number would get to so just a caveat this is very much a mathematical exercise and not a planning exercise but um you can also do lot area per dwelling unit um 2,000 square feet yeah it's not necessarily as clean a calculation in some ways um I think a couple of communities very early on in the process thought about maximum number of units per District that was um I I then heard through sort of the planning great buy that that was rejected because you can't um you know property owner number seven developing if Property Owners 1 through six have used the capacity it's not fair so um it's in there because there are zoning districts out in the wild that have those in there but it's not appropriate for not considered appropriate for the MBTA communities so I would say those two work y can you limit number of dwellings per lot um yes in fact you've already got that limitation uh it's not in this model but you have that four dwelling units so that's built into this that is not built into this we have to take it off you would never meet your capacity requirements if that were on them so that is currently what what you see is what went into the model okay when I was working with the model I used the technique that you just mentioned which is the use of a base slot size I kept the 6000 but I put a 4,000 base and a 2,000 or 2500 foot per lot additional and what I found was that you could use that to very effectively balance the push pull between what happens on smaller lots and what happens on bigger Lots yes is that not something that would be used normally I mean it looks like you can just dial right in exactly what you want with it's been used frequently could use it on this I think um the key right now is to get to the geography and then then absolutely you can test out and see what that looks I think it's important for us to keep in mind the fact that we really can right we really can adjust this and we can also adjust the the balance between the 12,000 foot lots and the 8,000 foot lots and so forth and that's where I say you know this is a mathematical exercise to get to compliance your um suggest gestion very much comes into the planning for the specific areas um and I think that is absolutely part of the con uh conversation that can still happen um and I think it's it's a good thing for you all to consider it's just we need to get that geography first because right now if we started modeling all of those dimensional variations on each of the Lots um we would be here for a lot longer any other questions on these three before I yeah I a question uh sure go ahead um I'm just looking at other community's proposed um bylaws um like and I have a file at home that I didn't bring it with me but for example Andover are you working with Andover I'm not working with Andover so I'm not familiar with what they're doing they State 15 units per acre Max so I think that could be a good thing to use and then um again I could get a list of the communities but they All State both the max lot coverage and then open space percentage so you could have open space you know Max slot coverage of 40% and then you're going to have 25% open space yeah and as you can see on there we have an open space percentage uh built into the model already um so uh the 15 dwelling units per acre may work with the air I don't know which because I'm not working with Andover I don't know which geographic areas they've chosen it's possible that that works it does not not work mathematically with the geog geography that we're looking at now um the the dwelling units per acre is calculated on a parcel by parcel basis and so um when I plugged it in with the parcels that you have now with these restrictions 15 dwelling units per acre does not get you to the density or the capacity on a districtwide basis it would work if you had one acre lot it would work if you had one acre lot yeah and and don't forget there's excluded land in the calculation um which uh so you know if you're using one acre lots there's absolutely no excluded land you can get there so but it's it's not working with the current combination that you have would also eliminate any possibility to balance exactly yeah so okay should we move on to did did you model all four these areas I modeled Let's see we added Newport Park back in we model Desmond number one we modeled summer number two we looked at your storage I've got an interesting thing on your storage for you but yes we yeah but if you want to talk about them first we can go through and show them so um so I had just thought that the Pine Street project including area including can um let me stop sharing and see if I can pull them up on mytop yes it's it's your original uh I think one the original one we had one b and one a Emily if that helps you it's is on here I just finished that yes it's here and we did we did not have it yes right but in order to get it on the screen I need to pull it up oh can you go back to original because it was one it was we don't want to go back to the original we want to deal with what we have on our plate well no but the original is what he what this is I send it I can send it it looks different I've got it I just need to get there we did not have time to remap everything we had just enough time to did you log into Zoom Mark uh no I am just going forward this latest thing oh but you've handed it out I handed it out but just finished re updating that last one yeah but she wants to get it up on the screen so people yes they can't they can't see it you all can see it they can't see it so yes Mark if you can send it to me I will I put it you and so the other caveat is if you just finished them updating the mark we'll just double check that there were no changes to what we modeled but that's that's part the only thing on the Pine Street is just adding the newp park and and how many acres did that come to I didn't get a chance someone to a little over 21 yeah 21 I will say that although um uh Mark is showing this as a single District we are still modeling it as multiple districts so that if you do want to balance things by subdistrict we still have that opportunity so just to let you know a really good idea different animals I'm just opening up the other to one more Mar sent me a lot of Ms okay I think that have them all up now just close all of these way thank you for the patience of those at home oh beautiful yeah now hopefully it will allow me to show them all here okay it's not add Joe do you want to start at Pine just tell me which one you want to start at yeah the Pine Street one number two yeah Pine Street Number Two Pine Street number two let's start that there you go that's so that's the Pine Street number two that's over 21 Acres which gives us our contiguous area all that area has been modeled in the various subdistricts but this is combined as a single area um this also gives us uh a lot of you know um 50% close to that within the district so um seems like everyone was in agreement that this is an area the numbers work we want to include this in our area so from a just the boundary perspective this is like step one we have to we have to agree that this is what we want to do um the zoning parameters if we need to modify them a little bit uh in the overlay District to to to spread out the density a little bit so that we um uh we get the unit count that we want in here uh we can do that when we're crafting the the actual text of the zoning do we reduce the setbacks do we allow a little more loot coverage Etc but as far as defining the boundaries this is kind of what we need to do like today okay so are we going to take a vote well that's what I would I'd like to run through these various scenarios and discuss them but I mean if we would like to vote on this I really think this one we really can vote on tonight we've discussed it quite a bit I'm move that we accept fine Street number two as our one of our zones overlay district oh I that is there room for uh public question or comment at any point uh at the end of this we will certainly have public comment yes okay before we vote I I do have a comment I I think I'm in favor of this but I just want to caution people that until you look at the unit counts going into these properties you're you're not entirely clear on what you're voting um I think this is going to work out um I I wouldn't accept it as it came in the spreadsheet in the spreadsheet we have some very large developments on Prime street but as as Emily says that will probably get tuned yes but it is important to keep in mind that we don't yet know how many units are going to be built on each of those lots and there's some pretty sizable Lots along Pine Stream So I I'm I'm saying that just as a caution cautionary not that's kind of step two if if having proposed this um I am uncomfortable with a sort of meeting where we take a vote and take a position and then somebody who has not been not on the committee but has a valuable comment is not heard and then we go back and say gee we just did something dumb oh see you like to hear the comment the gentleman's comment I would urge that we try today to resolve in an informal way what our choices are and vote on these at perhaps a meeting before final meetings so that we have a chance to really drive into detail well I I think the the thing is is that you're going to the planning board on the F thre you need to come in with a concrete proposal you don't have to have complete text written of the entire zoning but you need to come into the planning board where planning board will be redoing all these exercises and will not be kind of evaluating what you're proposing and you know I believe I wasn't here at the beginning but this task force was tasked in putting together a proposal and so you're coming to the planning board on the 25th and I think you really need to come in with with a proposal we have a meeting scheduled for next week we have the architectural subcommittee coming in uh to present to you um what they come up with and so I um it's you know this committe is under kind of a tight timetable I mean if there needs to be adjustments as we craft the zoning and come and tweak it and maybe we have to adjust an area but I believe in order to move this forward um you know you need to kind of make some decisions on these areas I think I think getting the area I agree with an's comment about wanting to hear the comment from the gentleman who raised his hand but I also um agree that what we're trying to do here is not the fine-tuning but the geography and I actually Sarah the the map this is identical to the map that we looked at at the beginning of January so I mean we've been talking about it for a long time so I think it's really time to get the geography agreed to and then there's a tremendous amount of work to do fine-tuning it looking property by property to understand really what makes sense may I make a suggestion um I think Mark had a couple of other areas to look at um it might be worth looking at all the geographies that he mentioned first because I want to show you how on a quick model this afternoon they work together and I think you need to understand the geographies before I show you that I agree I me I don't think you can look at one in a vacuum andate op so do you want to hold on your motion I will withdraw my Mo okay and do you want to hear from the public person before I go to the next I think we should do all of them first let's do them all and then ask questions okay so second one why don't we go to Valentine and [Music] summer Valentine and summer is an area that was also discussed previously um that had been most of boundaries had been reviewed before it includes the larger apartment complex across from the train station going down to the gas station does include little property next door and then kind of going up Summer Street it includes uh few properties across Summer Street and uh right around across the railroad track so that is slightly more than five acres I think it's closer to six um and uh so that is an area and I believe you bottled that previously as well so so just to be clear this includes 10 and 12 Summer Street correct yes and the gas station and the gas station and gas station and Beach and Stanley's and for Beach yes the little house where the shop is I just think it's helpful for people home understand I don't know all the right the addresses and the and I think to Mark if you're acreage is working off this diagram you've included some of the RightWay that we snatched the parcel line so we'll have slightly different acreage but it's it's um it is over its five acre minimum okay um which is the key piece for this area and it includes 34 tapping 34 tapping is the it's Val okay okay could I just ask a quick question or make whole question till the end of this I know but issue with that honestly I'm sorry to interrupt but you're going through different scenarios for the town and I'm sorry I'm sorry we're we're gonna have to follow some rules here we're going to go through all of these districts and then we're gonna open it up for questions on all of them vote not wait until the end of the meeting just at the end of this presentation of the four okay so you'll you'll allow public comment before you vote Yes of course okay great thank you for clarifying that thank you okay so the next one is Summer Street which is a portion of the larger um Desmond yeah Desmond going all the way up to Summer Street wait Desmond to summer or Summer Street number two uh it is uh Summer Street it's the one you have on the beautiful thank you sorry for yeah originally there was a much larger one that went all the way from the apartments uh was it Des Min all the way across the cricket included the cricket property some of the houses on Norwood Street um all the way up to this section of Summer Street including the um some of the properties here so in trying to get a 5 acre piece because we had a lot of concern about about the Cricut property and the Verizon property next door being large vacant Properties or that could be easily redeveloped uh for a large number of units I tried to figure out was there five acres to the uh West where the um Desmond Street Apartments were and I couldn't get five acres over there because you'd have to run up and include a lot of Norwood Street which people were objected to or going to the historic districts whether it's the national register District or the Local District it just didn't work so I started playing around with looking at from the Verizon property this way and um the the the issue with that is is that there's the the street just at the bottom of this Allen Street which is a a a little nice little neighborhood and so I wanted to kind of stay out of that um it was suggested by some people to stay out of there but but they wanted to include the condos at the end of Brook Street because that's a already a dense nice little development that probably will never get redeveloped you also have some other Lots along Summer Street that you can include that aren't very large which is why kind of meanders and stays away from the biggest properties which could could be you know uh 20 30 acre uh 30 unit build properties and then it goes up to include the gas station and that AC rdge is um almost again 6 Acres I got about 5.7 something so it includes this L-shaped building is where the vet is yeah Dr Lamb is okay that's also cond yeah this Emily this is your Summer Street number two when we're look this this is actually Mark Summer Street number two yeah but when we look at the scenario that's yeah I didn't title it the same as the files time it says Summer Street it doesn't say summmer street number two the um PDF is called Summer Street number two that's what I was asking I think it's the same it should yeah it's the same thing oh okay so that's what's there just to clarify the building that is in the area in the top right that's gas station correct the last proper and then it incl the base of Lincoln Street right the condos on Lincoln Street like Manchester where Manchester electric is y y y that Clump y I believe that's correct it's next to the parking lot to the school and then the um so if you look if let's say we voted to um approve these three uh districts that we were talking about um first off I think there's a large Baseline number of units here and so that the incremental increase in each of these would be fairly minimal and um many of these properties wouldn't be developed because they're Condominiums for other types of properties that be really difficult even though the quote zoning would allow it so that's why I think if ideally looking at what might past to meeting I think these are a more realistic you know assuming the technical modeling works out um so that leaves about 25 acre plus 212 leaves about what six seven acres left so I looked at the LCD district and instead of using the math property or the medical building property because both properties serve public purposes in the community one for recreation one for medical services both of which are not something similar is not located nearby so I look back at the behind there is there's store G facilities on two different Parcels uh which total of close to 9 Acres um you know uh they um have some development constraints but I don't believe they would technically be excluded by the state but that's why Emily's here that's why Emily's here so um so I propos that this one or both depending on the size we would need for compliance uh we kind of counted as our third U as the fourth uh section so the one with all the buildings is cap and storage the Brady property what's the other building it's another storage Warehouse building it looks like it's a single user I don't know whose it is I both okay yeah they're both is there any chance that our total that's the newer up over 43 acres and in trouble for contiguity that um well you can so the larger property is slightly over six acres okay so I mean that's why I said one or both depending upon what we need in size so here's my my job of pouring cold water on the idea it's it's so much fun to be a consultant let me tell you um we actually have a little bit of a puzzle on this because we went in to model it this afternoon and um my colleague came to me and said it's modeling at zero units why is it modeling at zero units so we went in to the model and saw that it is mar a good portion of it is marked as non-public excluded land but when we looked at the over lay on the map it was not showing as excluded land so we have a big question mark on this and unfortunately because we were doing it this afternoon we haven't had a chance to resolve it so if we can put this as a possible to one side um so we can have a chance to research and maybe reach out to um uh we're in touch with the people who created the shape files for this and find out what's going on with that I think that would be helpful this is privately owned land yeah we we did not any we we looked at the ownership we did not see any reason why this would be non-public excluded land so as I said it's not mapped at that but it was coming up in the formula so we just want to double check and see if there's something weird going on sever of the ab budding Properties or they are yeah that well no they're owned by um trustees trustees so we were wondering was there did it get coded wrong somewhere so it's a mystery I'm not saying that it can't be done but it just for to purposes of today's conversation it was a little bit of look more water the ice cubes are melting if we could not use those Parcels what's the next smallest parcel we can use would probably be the Mac or or I don't know which is bigger the Mac or the medical building about medical buildings smaller and Utopia is only four and a half no no no medical buildings larger building is 13 and and Mac is 10 okay I mean's the Gard Center site which is about four plus acres and so it's to there a couple Parcels that across the street from it that would get you to the I'm sure would not be developable those as we like yeah a couple of acres are listed and thin yeah runs along out water so quite a way and and it's adjacent to ecologically sensitive black okay so uh we want to talk about the capacity of all let me so you know the storage unit zero right so we did D2 and G um we had uh actually we didn't do we did Summer number two but we also added Desmond number one which you did not mention Mark I don't know if you want to talk about Desmond number one or just Street on yours oh okay yeah that that was sent over in your original email so I did send that okay so that's the one that includes the cricet building okay which I'm not recommending that we but we can see what it looks like so why why bother we don't like it I'm going to show you why you might why you want to see what it does I'm not saying that means you have to do anything with it it just we modeled it because it came over so here's what it does um so we modeled let's just say 1 a not 1B Newport Park Pine Street more Sal Hill po house you're familiar with all of those we added in Desmond number one summer number two and Valentine to Summer which we've just seen I just want clarification we've got two maps here yes we've got Desmond Street and we've got Desmond to Summer which is Desmond number one Desmond Street okay and then summer number two is your Summer Street and this is under the parameters here this is completely compliance in geography unit capacity density now I'm not saying that you want to do that I'm just noting for the record that it does meet all of the requirements so this does not need the LCD this does not need the LCD no this is the no is 631 units well yeah but that's because we didn't do anything to the existing you know we've got that is without fine tuning that is without fine exactly you have a geographically compliant District without fine-tuning you could probably fine tune it downward somewhat it does however put the entire unit capacity into the half mile radius so something to think about there uh Market talked about and again this was actually today so we could not execute on this yet but um we've talked about I think residen City before that shows the current density we did want to um take some time to go out and see what the existing unit count is in this are in these areas um as a comparison to what the capacity is so that's still out there um for example powderhouse and Elm Street some of the earlier scenarios I had shown you bump the dwelling units per acre density up to its existing density this does not do that so this model here so again to your point we can fine-tune this if this geography is of Interest so how do you fine-tune the Cricut building so I would look at that um from let's see that was on Desmond Street right this is a Cricut building on Desmond one Desmond one so I would be going into the model I would look at what it generates under the dimensional standards that we're testing um I would experiment with some other tests uh I would see whether or not this so we have to modify it by G just for the people listening in the um dimensional standards would be by subdistrict so this would be a subdistrict by itself and I would see if we modify those dimensional standards what does that do for the tested capacity and density here and then put it back into uh this and see what does that do with the rest of the district on on the on the surface that's 40 units right so you know um right now Desmond um is modeling out at 131 units but that's without any sort of fine-tuning to that unit capacity so that's where I would go into that subdistrict and say can I bring that model down can I um realistically that's a large part of the district yes ab and a large and a large part of the rest of the district are small Lots no way you're going to get the cricket building down below 15 unes break probably not no but again it's it's not just you you could get a just for you know general purposes here you can bring an individual district below 15 units per acre as poter house Elm Street is now the key is what does that do to the app average and so that's what we would be looking for is what does that do to the average so but we can increase P house Z Street exactly so if you increase powderhouse Elm Street you can potentially decrease another District that's where the fine-tuning comes in and that's where um to Richard's Point earlier they're looking at the district by District basis that comes in so um my only concern um is pertains to Valentine to Summit for a couple of reasons the first of which is it's a fairly constrained there's the C Street is one way uh taen is pretty narrow and actually C Street is two way there yeah it's two-way there it's two-way to it yeah but coming the other way from Summer to to tap and it's to but the my concern is I don't know how to say this politically correct but I'll give it a shot out if if if the goal of this committee is to try to retain the character of the town which it by almost by definition is to try to minimize the impact of 4A I think of all the sites we've looked at that's the most viable for development and you know the question is if how much can you jam on that sighting and what's the impact on the character of the town all the other ones small Lots um not really necessarily uh as close to the train station is that site and I if you had to pick one one site or one of the parcels that would be the one that I think will attract the fastest development but they're small Parcels I'm sorry they're small Parcels well it's no it's not well it's five 5 plus 8 total but a big chunk of it is those 10 12 summer which is already developed well be curious to know what the density what what what is how does that work youve got I think the the summer is what 10 to 12 summer is like 12 units to the acre something like that the cond the apartment building is uh well over so that that a that whole lot average is 15 and it gets there because the apartment building is up around 19 is my recollection and the uh town homes are down around eight as you'd expect them to be okay so and how many acres is it of the total this the 10 12 summer does anybody know three tell from it it's yeah and again you know this works out to being something that is compliant within the entire half mile radius right it's nothing beyond that but that again means you have options so you can go further outside the radius and um reduce the unit capacity or the density within the radius within the mathematical requirements but we hadn't actually found an option yet that was uh geographically and potentially unit capacity and density compliant within the district so now you know it's possible that may not be the choice that you want to make so that's just something to keep in mind but to your point no matter what happened there the number of units would not be a huge increase so the incremental change would be less abrupt than it might be another place except for where the gas station is yeah the gas station but that could have that might be a good change it's still only half an right so seven units yeah Max seven units right there doesn't sound so horrible right okay should we open it up for some public comment stop sharing so that people can I can't see that I can wonder if it would be useful to have the scenario up there because that that is the no L CD scenario and it's interesting uh yes let me put that back up there and um if she does that I'm not going to be able to see the people I can yeah I can see the names if you click on participants it'll show you I've got the participants at the top would you click on well let's see what the questions are and then maybe Shar is needed yes I think that Sarah piis has her hand up okay Sarah hi sorry yes uh Sarah P 9 friend Street I have two questions um one is have there been or are there going to be any traffic studies on the areas you decide on at some point before this is sent in I I just don't I'm really concerned between the cell signaling traffic the pending 40b development on Shingle play Hill and then 550 seven units whether they're built right away depending on where they're zoned is a concern so I'm wondering has there been a traffic study or will there be one done before this is put to the um State and the other question is it's been pretty much said all along that we were going to have public forums and I know that you had a zoning um 101 but that was more about zoning districts where people live lived and I don't think there's been an opportunity for the public to really see these plans and I know that it's been said by someone on the planning board I believe Ron said well we're out of time I don't think it's that's a realistic reason to move forward with such a massive zoning change because we're out of time like I think the State needs to be contacted and maybe we express we've had a huge you know company that is coming to our town and that has taken up a lot of the board's time we don't have extra officials to deal with all these different projects the 40b was a huge undertaking and I just think that with these three combined projects that we could really change Manchester for the worst very quickly so I'm just wanted to make that comment and question about when are these public forums happening so the public can view these and not by going on the town site that's not a public forum that's just going to a website where you can't ask questions and get answers and then the traffic steady so I'm wondering if someone could answer that for me I'll try to answer uh the first um your comment about a traffic study for 559 units or 557 sorry whatever the number is um there's a huge misconception which I hope I can explain carefully here by rezoning areas that are already developed with residential use what it's not that they're going to be 559 new units they're going to be a number of units but incremental units in addition to what's already there and that number is not 559 but the the number two zone for is 559 so whether the zoning the zoning is not telling you how many units are going to be built it just says what are allowed by right if you have a three family house and we're rezoning it to allow four families on it then that's one additional unit that's going to be incremental with the zone so you're not going to need a park a traffic study for one additional unit I'm being factious here but right I understand that you don't really know until we until the zoning is in place and people come forward with proposals uh we're not going to ask for a traffic study for somebody converting a two family to a three family but if somebody comes in with a proposal for a 100 units on a site that allows 100 units then yes we can ask for a traffic study but you can't do a generic one for all over the downtown for some unknown number of incremental units that are that are going to be created theoretically at some Future Point by zoning well I mean theoretically it wasn't going to happen in Beverly and it definitely did I can't say what I'm sorry let me answer your other question the other question so there's no traffic study just to be clear just so I no there is no traffic study no and your second question yes we're going to have as many Community fors as we can fit in if I had my brothers and I think we should do it is have a community Forum on each of these districts and so are effective in each district can come and talk about what their concerns are and that would be before they're obviously submitted yes that'll be over the next couple of months okay all right yeah thank you thank you for answering my questions any other question has his hand up but I think we need back and forth I'm sorry we'll try to avoid the back and forth go ahead Mike oh in your case yeah I just I just had a followup to your point there Chris at some point will we know that really the more important number it's the Delta right it's the incremental in other words to use your extreme example if we permitted an empty lot that could build 555 then the incremental in that example would be 555 and the flip side is if you permitted 555 on a plot that already had 555 then the incremental is zero right so that's right at some point will we know the incremental number yes we will in fact that's going to be critical and I think it's something that when we go to the planning board we're going to have those numbers available to to discuss with the planning board so we'll be able to know for example for the Pine Street area how many units are there now and how many could possibly be developed there within his zone right so we we so just to be clear right now we don't have a feel for that incremental number no because we haven't got the geography pinned down yet so it's kind of a sort of difficult to know but we now as of as of right now if we we could probably do each of these uh districts and and tell you but we just don't have the data in front of us right now next hand is C C Rising hi this is Curtis Rising 16 Front Street um I'm I've written two letters uh to the to the task force and spoke asked questions at the Forum at the high school um just speaking about I was on concom thinking about the Elm Street powderhouse area first um there's there are clear Wetlands protection act Riverfront prohibitions that extend up to 200 ft from the river so which is Sawmill Brook into the channel and I think that has to be factored in considering the elm powderhouse area so without that it's really I think it's meaning meaningless to include it unless you've really considered it and I think concom would have uh you know Clarity on that the second piece is from a lot from a building on lot it looks low density that that Elm Street powderhouse but there's a 24 unit apartment building and a five unit apartment building and Commercial properties that all require huge amounts of parking so a lot of the empty space there is parking so between that parking and the riverfront protections of 200 ft all along that side I'm just I'm just really asking the question H how would you add to it without you really couldn't is my perspective so I just want to I want to bring it I want to bring it to your attention that's our goal yeah well it could be your it could be it could be your goal but let me be clear that the the kinds of a approaches that concom takes to these is is you know it has to be factored in or frankly this is this is not a real proposal so I you know I that's my observation and um just want to kind of leave it there I think the other thing I've voiced before is I think District e or kind of south of the railroad tracks I I think if we're considering the most dense parts of town for further density I know that there's a perspective on this from from the task force it really bothers me that the district D isn't even considered at all um and to me I think that's going to be challenged If This Were to move forward as a proposal without that um because there's a lot of taxing that would go on in terms of um already dense areas that I think you know looking at that half mile radius um there's half of it that isn't really even on the in The Proposal so those are my two areas good so Curtis I'm going to address the wetlands protection act I know you know this but for for people who aren't familiar with how this works um so zoning we've talked about the fact that zoning isn't production um uh but it's also important to understand that state laws such as the Wetland protection act are still in full force of effect so zoning gives a property owner the right to do something on their property depending on what that zoning is they don't have to do it but they can take advantage of it in the case of this where we're looking at an overlay District they have the advantage of either doing the base zoning or take or for using the overlay zoning But whichever one they might choose to use if they decide to do something with their property as I said state laws such as the wetlands protection act still exists that's outside of zoning that is under the purview of the Conservation Commission as you know and not of the planning board so anybody coming in who is subject to that would still be subject to that and the second point about parking uh there is no uh no relaxing of the parking requirement so any residential development is going to have to comply with the zoning bylaw which is one and a half spaces per unit and I don't think we're going to change it but if we do it'll be part of the of the new language that people can comment on but there's no relaxing or relieving of a parking requirement the [Music] Z nobody else has a hand raised well Bar's got their hand raised I have four quick questions should I ask one by one or sure one by one's fine so um I think Mike Pratt mentioned my first point about what the Delta so hopefully he'll get that data um and the follow on to that would be for each of the proposals what is the actual unit per acre that it calculates that to be you can do that also yeah again if you're using 6,000 acre L that actually culat down to 22 per acre if it's all 6,000 so the question is that do you want existing density or the allowed density allowed allowed density okay we can we can sh that on a parcel bip parel thank you um Newport Park was in and then it was out now it's back in just wondering why so I thought it was had to be excluded because we thought it was excluded land because it was deed restricted but it turns out it's not so it's a good idea to include it because it's got a tremendous amount of density already y okay it's not listed as excluded land on the on the map so um and then only because the Pine Street number two the lines look funny where it skirts around houses on the street to go further out up I'm just wondering why those front houses aren't included the historic district on Central Street is that the St district is that where the line is so it eliminates all the first parcel on Central and and I want to reiterate an important guiding principle that we have which is the reason we're picking small Lots areas with small Lots is because that reduces the size of potential projects so if we have a a 2 acre lot in an e District that can create a total of 30 unit 30 units on it whereas a 6,000 foot lot you can do a three family so to try to preserve the character of the Town we're trying to reduce the possibility of properties with 30 units on them and encourage three families as much as we can I know you don't want to do back and forth but I have a philosopy on that but then my last question was has the task force meant with no we have not don't need to in fact didn't we Tred to get a representative from concom on the task force and they refused they didn't exact we they said they would prefer not to yes I think you made a very good point earlier which is that nothing we do impinges on the Conservation Commission on conom restrictions we couldn't if we wanted to and we don't want to and and the more property we include subject to concom jurisdiction the less you know less fewer doing new units and still comply with the model okay is there any other questions from the public oh yes I have two statements and one question for the record start from the last uh add I wish the conom was representing I'm sorry Karina Gates uh School Street investment and uh I was a a member of the conservation was part of this whole plan because it will appear much better you know to the public anyway that everything is considered and I'm sorry nobody volunteered from them but um going to the next uh we live in an area on Desmond I heard the name Desmond and I jumped oh what is going on in Desmond other the apartment buildings that we have there since the 72 year um is there that area is still Den wor things I day they to purchase the property which Dr there 1987 it was part of our property and um it was just to dry the cranberry Cranberries for our owner who had a cranberry BG up School Street and um uh then eventually it became home and 43 the current people who sold it and were the owners since 1943 and now they're building another property on in on it and they're putting I was just downstairs that's how we came we didn't even think about the meeting tonight here and we came to ask why they're taking so much space Mr Orlando from the land there because um uh every time you have to do something in our area you have to uh ask the conservation to allow you to do it because of the brook nearby Which is less than 200 ft from there and so on and uh he said that well they have no problem they didn't see any problem with it and uh the land is going to be in my opinion more than 50% taken by structure and they're having Mr orando said well there're lot the left perimeters all around the building so it all gets together to the amount uh uh the plan that we have I have all the records of theirs and the plan that they had uh doesn't seem to be exactly what is actually dug down and um there he told us that I have been heard tonight and I know the rule or the law that you have one and a half parking space per unit right so we asked uh where are these people going to uh you know park because every house seems to have two card at least and um so they're building a garage for two cars and another space will be assigned for it uh on the grounds so we have already a lot of land taken because of the MBP knowledge of these coming and they're not even built yet whatever they're building there one of them is just gued completely the old dwelling and they're advertising the price and how beautiful they will be but it's going be so dense so what more will be done on Desmond if any because there's no single tree other than our garden in anybody's Garden maybe they have on the sidewalk part a plant or a tree a small tree we still have yeah so only only 40% of a lot can be built on actually this is the 50 yeah he said 50% to us downstairs I'm not quite sure but uh I don't know what to say but all the areas there all the all the all the structures there have taken most of the property so so I don't see how anybody will think even of Desmond other thaner we have no a D1 District General District it's number three Brook it's an existing two family and they're enlarging and it's still going to be two one building with two apartments okay so they're not really increasing the oh yes they're building another structure to the other yeah but it's still two units oh yes that's that's why that density is number of units not how much how oh it doesn't matter how much land take okay but uh so it takes all that the only there's no other building uh I mean no land on that side of the street or the other that anybody can build any well that's why we might Zone it because then we can build that that's the Ian taken the whole paring driveway a little bit know so so that building is safe it's not going to be yeah but the only ones that we have ourselves they're the only ones that they are actually lots that can have something like that happened which they will not because hopefully we won't but um anyway so that going um the other is I saw that you have powder Hill Alena and all that area there is flooding when they s again that's that's not our concern that's the Conservation Commission we're just zoning it yes when someone somebody wants to develop it they're going to have to come and go to the Conservation Commission and go through that approval process I think our hope is that we can Zone and not necessarily have it developed so that if meets the zoning parameters in the compliance model we're meeting the parameters of the law but perhaps a large portion of the properties in fact can't be developed because kcom wouldn't approve that yeah I think from what mices are here in the past 40 years if it's zoned they built you know people have that idea but in fact everyone in the downtown could convert their single family house to a two family right now some of them already done itool certainly they could if they had three parners but there is also a land piece of land on Summer Street on the opposite side of the gas station that there acres and Acres empty L well we're not gonna Zone that because then it'll get built on you up Mike was that you you jump in it's it's Curtis I just have a quick comment uh Curtis Rising 16 friend Street um I just I just want to understand the only hard line if you look at the Massachusetts Westland protection act as I think we were EV validating here you cannot build in that 100 200 foot buffer zone so as much as we're saying well we're just going to rezone an area and it's the concom issue I think with a hard line like Riverfront protection you can't really include that because it's it's meaningless rezoning and I would I I don't see how the state would accept a plan that has prohibited land as part of it so the the state has created uh what they call excluded land that doesn't allow us to Zone it so any land that's excluded we can't include we can include it right so if you if you look at 200 feet from the river of Sawmill Brook and the channel Curtis I'm sorry we can't have this back and forth but let just say that whether or not it can be actually built on isn't relevant to what we're trying to do we're just doing zoning we're not building buildings here and and and one other point is that the area long somal Brook the lots that we're including are already developed and so they already have structures on them so perhaps they might be able to get a permit to redevelop um and or expand or go up and still comply with the Rivers protection act the wet looms protection act flood control you know flood U plane ordinance so they still could uh do that and still comply with the various bylaws I mean if we were zoning like a large undeveloped piece then and it was a long skinny piece along the riverfront then um as you pointed out you may not be able to develop a large portion of it even though you may be selling it so yeah and I'm sorry I apologize for the back and forth I'm trying to be constructive and helpful I think between wetlands and parking requirements I just don't see that as a viable uh subdistrict so that's I thank you for your help any other yeah I just think there's a distinction no there's no other people there's a distinction between viability and meeting the minimum parameters of the law which is what we're attempting to do yes there seems to be a misunderstanding about the fact that if we Zone something we somehow magically make it buildable right but we don't and we have to for purposes of the MBTA act Zone along partial lines you can't got AC cross partial lines so that constrains us further okay so are we ready to take the next St we want to wait till the next meeting and vote on these districts um I will say that if there's anything that you want us to model get a proposed unit existing unit whatever whatever numbers you need for the um Monday meeting of the planning board decisions that are made next Thursday just not going us a lot of time to do that work so you to you you absolutely have the right to change your mind at any time but if there's things that we can work be working on between now and then that would be very helpful and in fact if you gave us some direction tonight we could get you some of those numbers that were requested we should be able to get to you before your next meeting I think it's important to have current dens density versus the Delta the Delta yes yeah and so I think she needs to know the properties in order to do that we talking all about the Gard parel uh we can do that now I guess yeah was going to do it later but we can do it now well I'm thinking about the purposes of modeling it sure well there's really nothing to model because it's empty land so we did have this meeting with Gordon College this morning and I know Denny you want to summarize well I think um they're interested in in developing a portion of that land and uh if you recall the original we gave them a non-binding letter of intent which would allow them to develop a portion of the land in an exchange for putting the balance of the gr land in conservation the purpose of which was to protect the town water supply our meeting today um I mentioned to them that we were concern initially the proposal was for 20 acres see what that would look like I'm meeting today I think we were really talking about five and um I'm sorry something that would support 100 units multif family which they would propose to be using in part as faculty housing maybe even student housing um and it's it's a if it if the if that's a price to to protect our town water supply I think we ought to be thinking at least how we might be able to make something happen there and particularly if we could put the rest of the they claim it's 140 Acres we could take five acres out of that away from the veral pools away from the wetlands and secure um Town water supply that's not such not not such a bad trade and I think it's something we might want to consider um right now it's it's one parcel and um I asked Emily whether we could get away with I you know the issue there is could we get survey fast enough to to be included whether we could get away with a meets and bounce description for the interim um so I think it's something to consider I think it's it's a small price to pay for the future of our town water supply question yes is it our sense that they're going to go ahead and build some more faculty and student housing anyway they can't on that land well they it's not clear right now they can't because it's LCD under the Dober Amendment they probably they might be able to get under under the Dober movment they could build housings if it was specifically and only for the college so it doesn't sound reading between the lines from the meeting that it sounds like they want a developer to come in to do housing and that a certain portion of that would be reserved for their use is kind of what I took out of that meeting that um um and I don't think they're looking to build the number of units that they'd have to build in order to extend sewer the sewer line up there because that would be very costly and so you that's you need the 100 units to be able to make that cost effective um so uh my concern with the Gordon property is that it's my ultimate goal and Advising the committee and the planning board the town is getting something that the town's going to approve next November and that I think the direction that I'm proposed today will be a lot less controversial than if we took 10 acres you kind of have to do close to 10 acres up there uh to get the 100 plus units um and I think given the history with the 40b site with what's like there's some land protection issues just down the street um a big opposition group to another Housing Development or two in that area that um we may have bit of an issue getting it passed now it doesn't mean and I pointed this out at to me at meeting today is that we get a proposal forward to work out the details with Gordon college and we come back to a subsequent town meeting and we change ask town meeting to swap out one area for another area so so that is a possibility as well but to rush the details I think um and given the you know the controversy already with some open space properties in that area that um I'd be careful about doing that and tying it to and tying it to to something that we absolutely have to get ped yeah we have to get ped we have millions of dollars in state grant money that would get shut off three and a half million for the sewer line extension for um CST a million and a half for Harbor dredging and Greg can probably run through a handful of other smaller grants but those are the two biggest ones but but you can rezone Gordon College separately and not even have it be involved in the MBT zoning at all completely separate you could do a m the waters separate negotiation with them and I just want to I I think I agree with you but I do want to point out that 10 acres that we zoned in the LCD is 10 acres less that we have to reone downtown downtown so that is the trade essentially y and think both are have their issues and both they all have issues furthermore we're still talking about some area in the LCD off of school and that's close to another development uh that is controversial it's not like that is without controversy also am I correct that any subsequent change to our Arrangements here might require a two-thirds vote instead of a 50% vote how does that work we only need 50% for approval what does it take in town meeting to make changes uh if it as long as it stays as housing this is this is where your Town Council will come in but as long as it stays at housing my understanding is it's always a 51% vote I think we would need to run it by the municipal law unit and Our Town Council just to be absolutely it's it is complicated yeah it's one of those that on the surface looks very easy but you can do the zoning for Gordon College without impacting the the MBT yes I understand but obviously if we had our DRS and we were going to have housing out there we'd like to have it take the pressure off of this I mean it's may not be possible but that would sure be nice well and also I think it was an mentioned that there is water and sewer service already on upper I don't know how far it Go a mile and the protection of the water res the town's Water Resources is pretty important I mean that's an issue that's Arisen many times in terms of objecting to development so if there's a way to do it how does the choice that we make up there north of 128 how does those choices affect what we're doing down below because we we've been talking about 58 here 10 acres here whatever but that influences how we combine the parcels down in the middle of town what I wanted to point out is that Gordon Woods area has been zoned for limited commercial for 30 years maybe more there have been two projects proposed there neither of them succeeded um I don't think it's urgent right now that we that we um change the zoning so that and and and make a swap I would really like to get our our mvta communities zoning focused on on land that's not where it isn't complicated and and I just see see the Gordon thing is being complicated fair enough so where does that leave us I I have a question for Denny um when we originally began to talk about Gordon you began your conversations with them the number I recall maybe incorrectly was that 20 acres was what they were looking now you're talking about a number that's half that or a quarter of that and that's from my point of view good news because that means more land that goes to conservation so are are they did I understand correctly and he correctly that they're ready to have a smaller portion devoted to development they expressed a willingness to do something um around 100 units which would be S Acres say round number say seven acres okay so much smaller than 20 acres that was originally discussed we we expressed concern that you know 300 units was going to be be an unstar right so do we get back to these yeah geography stop okay let's so let's uh somebody want to make a motion do something here may I ask a question about the board not the property there it's just something that I for a long time is going on I think we're we're I think we're done with set up School Street well we are considering something up school street is time because the Baptist Church trying to build the church which is a ridiculous in my op very Unis they don't pay taxes to the town so maybe they can do it for housing there no okay thank you thank you for that yes thank you I just to wrap up the discussion about Gordon before we go on to the geography I mean Denny's been having these conversations is it the should we I mean should he get the support of this group to continue the conversations let's talk about the geography first and see if that fits into the geography you know I think the answer it's a a general answer is yes that's a a deal to be done whether or not it's under the en yes okay I would like first to say that I would like the mystery of the storage properties to be qual enough and I was going to suggest that you could I think you've got kind of three possibilities outside your radias that are still open right we've been talking about the the mac and the medical center we've got storage properties and the Mystery around there you have Gordon College I think those could continue to proceed a little bit on Parallel paths maybe you know you want to do something outside the circle which one it is or or you have talked in the past that you want to do something outside the radius which one it is could be left open a little while longer that give us a chance to look into the storage properties and see what's going on there um we could continue to keep them in our mix for that um so yeah I think I think that's something that we could continue to look into for you but I also think it makes a difference how much acreage it does we have downtown yes to know what we want to consider in the LCD because we don't want to consider the medical center and the MAC at 23 Acres if we have more than that downtown we want to cross stuff off and you could say hey the medical center in ma is now out we've got two other options to go into I think that would also be a perfectly reasonable thing to for you to consider tonight I I for one I mean we have been talking about this area of powderhouse Lane Pine Street Number Two Pine Street right Pine Street number two for a very long time and as long given the assumption that we have the ability to tweak in by individual parcels and go I would like at least to say I'm not sure about the other properties but I this has so many advantages in terms of not touching the historic district in terms of Being for the most part unless we get wild with the total acreage we satisfy the contiguity requirement there is already a lot of building there you know that can be essentially protected to some degree by the zoning so I I I would really like to get a vote of the group tonight that says this geographic area not necessarily how exactly how it's been modeled certainly not that but that this geographic area is core to what is that a motion yes so move could it be simplified a little bit to say that we endorse Pine Street number two sure go for it area as a geographic area overlay as an overlay presenting to the planning board it would be presenting to the planning board okay that's s of an amended motion but I second and amended motion can I do it any discussion on the motion and I guess we should vote it all in favor I you gotta ask Mike to Mike what how do you vote on this uh I vote no Okay so um um so Richard can we count again oh you want do a roll call you have to because sorry so Mike Mike says noain I say yes den yes staining staining okay Sarah yes Sue yes and yes and the chair votes yes also okay guess we should tell vote vote 611 611 okay you want to go on to our next District you want to feel strongly about any these districts if you want to definitely include back on the screen you're talking to about necessary I Mo we endorse the district described as Valentine and Summit I'll second it as a geographic District overlay District overlay District I think overlay is important to people yes um May I comment on the motion yeah yeah um well has been second oh yeah a second um I pushed hard to get this considered originally um and I the more I think about it uh we we cannot do special permits in an MBTA Zone and effectively we can not mandate um uh you know first floor commercial we can't do a mandatory mix use District um because that really totally turns the the control over the state so I don't know I mean it's a pretty important part of downtown and I would feel much more comfortable with a special permit where there is a process of negotiation between the town and who who ever might develop it which section are you concerned about um really the whole thing I mean Stanley's um and the gas station and the gas station and the little house next to uh the gas station or Beach yeah I think there's room to exclude or Beach and still have a size an adequate geography when we went through this mapping exercise the last time we fell just short and there was a question about including streets to the midpoint yes and using that as a standard I think your comment was that we can do that if we use that throughout the measurements if you use you don't use that in your existing zoning now so you so we did not use that you you have to be consistent with how you measure the districts but um it's not the way you currently measure your districts but could we for the purposes of this overlay consistently measure all the mvta overlays to the midpoint of the street I'm not sure I can answer that because because you have not done that in the past I don't I honestly don't know if hlc would look at it and say huh isn't it interesting that you measured it this way for MBTA but you don't do it for any any of your other districts so I would propose that if we do vote on this we might want to do it with the stipulation we reduce it to the smallest size that we can based upon whatever is available currently modeled at 5.1 Acres that's what we have in the model now Bas based not on this but on the geography where we have snapped it to the parcel lines except when we're crossing streets and that's how we consistently modeled it based on your current zoning practice so the streets only count when the Zone goes across the street in the way we've modeled it now yes we've modeled it to the parcel [Music] lines that also incidentally including the central line of the street also has implications for density right because yeah density lower yeah it doesn't it doesn't have any effect sorry parcel size yeah it's excluded land so you're right Richard I misspoke it doesn't affect the density it does affect the district size because uh streets count is excluded it's a very close thing this district and and the ability to get rid of that property might depend on it or we might even get it out now it was it was very close so it's 0.15 and she's saying this is coming in at 5.1 so I didn't take it out to three to two or three decimal places so I so and Sarah I have a question for you because this I'm looking at the map that Mark handed out and the parcel on the corner of c and happen is something you were cons expressed concern about well there's two Parcels there there's the the Valen rivers and then there's a small parcel on the corner which is owned by the people who live across the street I tell you that you absolutely can't get there without those because you'll notice that one of the things that happens when you draw the lines that way is you pick up a bunch of Street and that area without that area you won't get to find do you have Parcels that you could have in place of the ones that you replaced or that drawn very very tightly I think it's drawn very tightly that's that that was my impression but otherwise you wind up going up on Union Street and there's some historic properties there you would want building you could include our but that runs into precisely the objection we just had okay right um on the the fact that we are putting it in an overlay District doesn't mean that there can't be retail on of course that's right right exactly so if someone were to build on the Richdale site it would be possible for them to to make it um it wouldn't Fe forbidden but we we' have no basis to encourage we can give incentives ah okay we can give incentives to encourage retail in a subdistrict yes absolutely which would include Stanley's and the gas station yeah we could do that we could say that you could maintain the density allowed with a retail underneath it if we do that we will I think be looking at it 2/3 V that so that might be a second second article uh we we need to get clarity on that also if get if it if each article can be considered a different Quantum of vote any Clarity on that before we assume that yes the answer is yes it can yes they had a so they talked about yesterday there was a IP okay oh yeah they talked about if you you're doing other things that you want to require um and that would require a 2third vote oh right okay that's how I understood language would have to be a separate article right unless you want your entiti md MD MBTA District to go to 2/3 which I don't think and so this is why I think you should speak to Town Council because I have heard from another Town Council if you remember which Community it was and I blanked but that mixed use is allowed with the 51% vote so I totally agree with you and you should check with the town C because they're the ones who's G to have to defend it at town meeting but we should do that maybe sooner rather than later because it will affect um not just you know what we write but how we write it um I am working with other communities where we're talking about two articles maybe one for a base district and one for something that's additional and so yes so so we could we could in include this um without a possibility of adding incentives and that would be a 51% or 50 plus percent and then as a separate article at the at the same meeting say because this is in our very commercial area we would like to allow and provide incentives for I think it would be allowed anyway would it not because commercials allowed any under the base District so this I think is maybe really important for the public to understand is if you have a base base district and an overlay District the property owner can choose to either apply under the base base District in which case all of the base District rules apply or apply over the over on the the overlay which case all the overlay rules apply but what they can't do is say like a little piece of B put it together so but we could we could allow retail use on the first floor in subdistricts within the NBA absolutely yes you're allowed to have mixed use um that is not uh uh any sort of prohibition from 3A but does go into can't mandate and you can't mandate it absolutely when Emily when if if we were to do that or plan to do that does that uh have to go before the eohc as part of their approval process as if if you are doing it as part of the MBTA District yes that would have to be part of what you submit to agency yeah I thought so yeah no you're correct I I look at this I don't like uh doing any of this resting in the Central District as you all know this looks like a very low impact to me so so I I have a worry I mean as I said before I walk this every day and there are homes along here so there's you know there's the one two homes you know the one that's blue that used to be pink and then there's a white one right close to the railroad tracks and then there's Jay's barage on that side of the street and then there's that tiny little house on the other side of the street just over the tracks and I know there's homes everywhere um but those homes are sort of included in all this other that are not homes um and we're including them so that we can get the Val time property and some of the other commercial space and and the and the Summer Street section which is already dense um so it's hard to weigh that I guess so I will say this that one of the houses the lot is too small to do more than three units anyway and they can do that by right right now they wanted to make it a three family the other one is more interesting but that's site is sunk down and doesn't have very good access I don't know what how that would get redone um the electric building I can't imagine that ever yeah okay so I I think in terms of all the other districts that we're creating this is pretty minor Richard was saying my my reaction to that is you you could say that about 20 houses in one we just looked at I don't see why we would be concerned about houses in this area if we're not concerned about houses in all the areas is my sense I am concerned about houses in all are but I I see your point hopefully subd districts will help us solve some of these problems possibly yeah any other discussion on this so we got we have a motion a second so I guess we can vote on this so Sandy oh boy don't start with yes I will say yes persed by the argument you ask me to vote or you no you said no Richard yes uh Sarah yes Sue yes yes says yes Michael no and I say yes how's that 620 sorry old habit diey hard okay the next one is H Summer [Music] Street I seem to be doing it um I move that we endorse an overlay District um following lines drawn on the plan um re Summer Street Summer Street CH the plan is label Summer Street March 12 hear second that one I'll second second okay how big are the largest Lots in this section the largest ones along Summer Street the ones along Summer Street all those four Lots the largest is probably the gas station no oh yeah yep it does look the largest and that's not very big well this one's pretty big too where the Pet Place is that's pretty big yeah but the Pet Place is is it's a condo so there's multiple owners so there are multiple owners still pretty Ste the ones to on on Summer Street on the right side of this um the land is very steep behind them but we can blast those are really steep it's really steep yeah there's there's a if you don't mind me interrupting there's a condo of 47 Acres there is a office building at 36 Acres those are and there is a condo at 4 acres and how big is the gas station4 46 it's almost a half so there's there's two on the other side of the street on the hill yeah perched on the hill they're also in the neighborhood of a half acre I guess yeah there's one this point three uh is the biggest uh that's the one closest to the gas station down about this one I think that's the three you got three they're at a quarter acre as well and that's about it yeah that is the biggest that has those condos at 66 somewhere yeah that's the largest at yeah that's the largest parcel but it's already yeah it says condos but where the dentist's office is appear to be one that's that's condos is that is that 76 Summer Street is that where the dentist is no 66 the dentist is in 66 cond we just thought about 76 oh that's not what here it's got 76 is general office buildings in 66 that's the former sorry sorry that used to be a gas station 76 is owned by one person yes 76 is is is my neighbor Lo all of it 76 is is rentals Office business yeah office rentals office rentals yeah yeah that's the one that's 36 Acres or just .36 Acres it's very steep in the back and very wet um that uh Bears it out it is it's got excluded land on it um and sensitive land so 2000 just over 2,000 square feet of excluded and uh just over 5900 square feet of sensitive land we can we can include the lot in spite of the we just can't count the the excluded land portion is removed from the model for capacity purposes but yes you can include the whole lot and then it models the sensitive at the non Mar but we're not they're not included in this picture 76 is 76 is in was one it's right next to the school just to be clear on what we're voting about we're voting about this geography is where we're going to focus and we're going to take a very detailed look at each of the ones we're deciding yes with the conable possibility that we will then say after a more detailed look uh no we don't of course we can always change our mind yes and she's going to give us the number of existing yes we know what the Delta is it's very important to know that if it's helpful to know this we um have done Maps where we show the existing number of units by on a parcel by parcel basis and then the modeled number of units on a parcel by parcel basis on a map or on a on a map so you can be we're just again once we have the the geography for you to look at that would be on stu okay okay are we ready to vote on this or the further any further discussion all right Sandy um I'll vote Yes given that we can change our yeah yes yes yes yes Mike no and I'll vote Yes also okay now do we want to talk about the LCD or we we we have another District don't we you talked about Des you talk about the death I did apparently send it out do we have enough to work with now I think we do yeah we do we do we are these three I believe if you wanted to consider gets you I think it gets you to 30 Acres or slightly more than we're over 30 Acres I also feel like we should bring options to the planning board if there any we can eliminate great but it's okay to have more options than we need sure going into that phase of things in my opinion so you you could have an option that's disagre just yeah I I think this this committee needs to come come forward with consensus this is our proposal you can explain let's say you choose not to have Desmond Street and you can go look we took a hard look at Desmond Street or we look a hard look at the medical office building but we don't need something that big we don't want to lose potentially that Community benefit so we mve it out um and this is fine I think the planning board would appreciate understanding how you got to what we're proposing but I think we have to come in with this is proposal of I am very happy to hear you say that man okay thank you can't put it off that you have to make I mean I know have learned that we'd like to evaluate and look at everything from every angle here but at some point we we have to get past that and we have to make decisions because we are under time Con well I think the big question for the planning board really is LCD yes or no and how much in the LCD yeah what's the tradeoff well I think we'll bring them a proposal and explain why we pick a particular piece unless this committee chooses the Desmond Street and puts it and says not to the LCD um so because I I guess that could be an option as well but but that is probably the piece that has the largest number of probable units that would be built in the in the half mile radius than any of these other districts that you just voted on so okay I would like to suggest that we endorse an overlay District um in uh on the plan labeled storage properties I'll [Music] that storage properties in the LCD that we don't that we do endorse that um because it's it's an Al the alternative is is Desmond Street which I consider too much I I I don't see how we can restrict the the old Cricket building enough um that it wouldn't be a burden on the town so uh assuming that we can figure out why that's coming up with zero units those two Place those two units should be enough to get us to our our acreage but I think we don't need both of them so I'd like to reserve the option to only include the larger parcel if that's what we need to get to the 37 Acres let me see if I can that we endorse using as much of the storage properties as is necessary to get us to our acreage I'll second that okay discussion what if you start at this end ask my Mike first I I do have a question so is this meaning that we are going to step back from looking at the medical office building and the map yes well to step back from downtown we're g further than it doesn't mean that we can't consider them we reserve the right to reconsider all right well we'll take a vote I'll start with you Mike I vote no and yes s yes yes Richard yes Denny yes Sandy yes you all about yes also okay I think we're done with this part of the meeting do we need to we had maps on two other areas do we need to take a vote to not support them I don't think so version the other ones versions if something doesn't work we can come back of course this is not a give Emily a finite boundaries right right these boundaries are good so just to confirm we're going to do the existing units for each of the parcels in each of these districts to map those out I'm going to take an executive decision to get the param the zoning parameters down to something that makes the minimum unit and density capacity um and then show you what the units per lot model units per lot looks like and then if you decide hey we don't like those dimensional standards we can always change them I just want to get to something that gets to the lowest number if that makes sense and then the lowest but not lower than oh not lower and and it will have a little bit of a cushion we've heard again anecdotally because all the Planters are talking to each other that it's a good idea to have a little bit of a cushion in case hlc says that parcel is not going to get that many units what are you thinking so it's not going to be precise but it will get much lower than it was looking um today um and we'll come back we'll research and find out what's going on with the storage Parcels I was having a quick look now and there's not an easy answer so we'll figure out what's going on with that and then um we will let's see your meeting is Thursday right I won't be able to do it for tomorrow but we will try and get it to you Wednesday at the latest so that we um can you guys have a chance to look at it before you have your discussions and will you give us a total per overlay District of existing and capacity yeah you'll see the same spreadsheets you not just by parel I don't want to have to add it up I wouldn't want to either just to be sure I understand so our meeting is on Monday the 25th and you're GNA try and get us stuff by the 20th which is next week Wednesday because you're also meeting meeting Thursday so oh meeting with the planning board it was on the [Music] original um and that's what I would request if we can start earlier oh yeah sure can can we meet at say 5:00 is that okay for everybody next Thursday well I don't think doesn't come back is this a meeting of us or a joint meeting with a plan I see okay finalized I did next Thursday at 5 yes I can do it 21st yeah then being the 14th than one week away is that okay with everybody okay great thank you I have a finance committee meeting at seven maybe we should be a three yeah you should have a pizza delivery there based on last okay all right okay the next uh item on the agenda is the discussion of the neighborhood descriptions I think since you all got copies of that thing about all the different neighbor areas pretty map on the front what are you talking about I mean this yeah there it is y oh a terrif document and I it's very useful what I like to do is got it post it and deliver to the plane Advance [Music] thee it's F it's fine with me I mean I think it's additional information anybody object to having it no I I I if if it's the one that was sent out it goes overlay by overlay I haven't looked at it yet District by District it's fine yeah okay press you thank you Emily good luck Emily thank you emks thank you soon okay I guess the next thing we do is go well we're g to go to the committee reports one of them that Outreach committee one of the things I'd like to do is in fact have a forum a community forum scheduled on the P Street Mor Court El Street the core District which is our most important district and um and I'd like to make it sort of a a walk a walk we can all walk through I think it'd be more effective to have it as a hybrid meeting you get more participation um I mean you can have a walk too we going to do the walk anyway but but I think I think if you want to hear from people you you should let them call in should we do it like we did the the zoning thing and have it at the no let's do it like we did with the uh tux Point rotunda I wasn't there so tell us about it yeah um actually we had two of them um presented the plans where were they done they we done right here okay okay um presented the plans um people you was it was a hybrid meeting people could be here they could be uh on Zoom um and then just took took comments um and you know said we have fin night time so you have two minutes we will go through everybody once before anybody gets a second comment um and and um that one at least or those two were were reasonably successful at at getting people to understand why one decision was made rather than the other two and uh was this when was this during the week evening evening during the week yeah actually it was done before a select board meeting for um about an hour if we do something like yeah so I think we ought to go through all four districts I don't know if we can do all four in one shot that's just going to be too much I think let's focus on the core one we might do the others all together but this one is the key one it's going it's going to mean Turning Away questions to the others because there will certainly be people there I kind of we can still talk about the others but in terms of I think we just present we present we present the Pine Street thing among gas and if people ask about others next week Forum on the other districts that we okay um biom me head walks yeah great yeah I was going to say the walks are important in the first Forum that we did in the fall we had 80 people there and there was lots of back and forth and I mean it was outside when we did the den they walked there were a number of people there who were not Town officials and uh so the walk part is really important I don't know how we'd integrate it with doing Walk be a separate day separate day separate day or maybe before I mean it's getting light it's light still walking that Pine Street the whole District that's G to take a while so we talked about doing a little walk tomorrow is it tomorrow it is tomorrow SCH for tomorrow but it's not a public that's not a that was us us do we even need to do that now I don't think so I don't we don't I'd be willing to go some I'm gonna go anyone else can come with me walk with you yeah um I make show 1 pm though because it's going to rain in the morning where are you starting I don't know we had to decide that tonight so we go right to so first do we have dates a date for this we had April 6th I have no idea what day of the week that is April April 6th is a Saturday Saturday oh yeah yeah which is good for a walk yeah yeah no oh for a walk but it's but okay um Saturdays aren't good for a forum because people with young kids no no are busy we want for for a hybrid Forum I think we want to do it before one of our meetings probably not before before the next one because there isn't time probably not before the one maybe before the one with the planning board but I think it'd be more polite to present this to the planning board before we open it first yes so the next meeting after the planning board okay plan board meets on Mondays so that's Thursday 28th April 28th be March Advantage it also has the advantage of uh getting us in front of people commission right after the planning session has been hled and which is a good idea the sooner the better okay March 28th let's see if we can get scheduled we'll do that at what time 7 o'clock no wait we're are we meeting you were saying before we meet so it would be like at 5:30 is that get people participating 5:30 do you think we do it right after we're not talking about the walk then right no about the hybrid so let's can we do it at 6 and then start our meeting whenever it's over when it's over figure okay so we're talking about the 28th at 6 o' and just put up the the map and yeah explain an introduction and then just take comments and then we'll keep the Saturday walk on the 6th yeah I think so okay yeah uh okay so now let's go to the I are you sure you want to do wait a minute oh no I'm off a week okay I was thinking that was Easter weekend but that's the weekend before [Music] um the subcommittees Richard we start with you I guess um we met and received a draft of design guidelines um after several workovers from our architectural team and I sent out a copy to you all today um it's been rearranged a little bit with some contributions the members of the committee it um addresses uh the design guidelines in several ways it uh proposes the establishment of a threepers committee that would be called into session by the planning board as necessary projects you wouldn't expect this to be a very frequent occurrence um it is establishes designed guidelines for massing materials uh suitability to the rest of the neighborhood um sets out specifics for the materials and form of the presentation and I think gives that design Review Committee well our goal was to give that design Review Committee a set of Standards which they could hang their hat on when it came to evaluating a proposal that was coming before them um these are guidelines um but uh I have sent them over to Emily I think at this point um we did not address the LCD and uh the comment that was made to our team by The Architects makes uh sense to us and that is that before we can really develop um a set of desired guidelines for the LCD we really need to understand what it is that we want to happen there um because there's a wide variety of things you can imagine you would want to establish different design guidelines for do you want small units close together I call it Queens uh do you want Garden Apartments do you want a mix do you want retail whatever so uh at this point I think we're really looking for guidance from that before we could proceed further and uh that's me stand with it I was really pleased what they put together I I hope you are too it's it's pretty ter yeah it's great so my one uh question and it really is a question based on the webinar yesterday uh there was the comment that if you have something where you pass a determination off to yet another group to make a decision that could be a problem is that your understanding um that because they're just guidelines and that that group does not have really veto power over a project that that won't be a problem well I I would say that the way I stand on it is that we've given this to Emily and and my general idea is we want this to have as much teeth as we can have without going a foul of eoh and she can give us guidance on that and I really can't the Divine R board would be advis advisory not a not a decision but so by being advisory I don't think we run a foul of the the MBTA rules because they're not granting an approval and U that's a good question okay uh I guess that's sort of the end of the design guidelines committee until the LCD they vaporized it's we need to get back to them though with images and ideas about the LCD yes and I think we po some part of our discussion that they were going to attend meeting next week oh yeah they will they want to discuss them with you all be here too so I think yes thank you for reminding me yes yeah so so so we can give them all credit well but I I think that's that gives us time to think about what either we can discuss it now but also to think about what what type of let's say we have seven or eight Acres we need in the LCD the big storage property let's say um what do you want that to look 17 story well you couldn't make the Z so Flor a very small footprint um or or you could you know do attach town houses really densely or or you know what what type of thing you are a mix of a couple Garden style and whatever so I think that's something we need to uh be able to give guidance to the architectural committee uh next week so they can continue they're not weely gone yet no but we're gone until we get some guidance on what to do with the LC yes okay I think next week we need to talk about what because each of us will have a vision and I think if we give them seven Visions my my question about this is isn't this more the planning board's area than ours well I me we're we're now we've been wrestling with things that are quite concrete we've been we we got we have a set of guidelines it all sort of makes sense now we're talking about really usage I think site plan review would be good tring to say is it would be good to get it would be good to get some input from the planning seem to me design standards in other districts yeah the historic commission historic commission is the only oh they not real it's just keeping what's there right yeah yeah no we do not and that's the whole point is we can't we can't attempt to impose design restrictions yes I across the whole town I don't think I made it this point in time I don't think I made it clear but a very significant aspect of these design guidelines is that they apply only to Renovations and structures that are being built under the zoning of the MBTA and so if you're in the MBTA Zone but you're doing something that meets the underlying zoning characteristics these design guidelines do not apply so no one should feel that their property is is affected by these um in in any way that that beyond what it is currently by own indry I think maybe just going to be an open discussion next week and see what happens and maybe we'll have seven different 10 different Visions who knows yeah um let's move on to the Outreach committee well we covered a couple of the things already just um a quick debris from our zoning Forum we had great participation and great feedback people found it very helpful so they learned a lot um their main message was keep it simple when you're talking to us about Sony um and they suggested that we have consistent Maps um with additional detail same color on each map so we'll think about that for the future um just the only other thing quarterly newsletter that Greg sends out uh with the tax bill uh Tiffany wrote a short piece um it has really just the status of our work and um the unupdated schedule uh we're working on updating the FAQs and looking at additional questions of the week if people have suggest questions um I would say send them to Tiffany and copy Gil um some thoughts we've had uh one is can't we just avoid this by getting rid of the NBTA station because that's come up at almost every public event we've had um you know anything else we're going to do one on home rule the meaning of additional units what's an overlay District um for for the home Ru um have you looked at the material you were there so did you pick up the materials that uh Mike Walsh produced no I'm not touching that I mean I'll go listen but I'm not touching um we need to address the questions that he's bringing up I know I know and I am happy to do that but without seeing them how do you address did not pick up his materials on do you have them yeah I No I gave them to who did I give them to they're online I'll send it to you okay I I have it too this is Tiffany so I can um get it to everybody okay great thank you Tiffany anything else in that reach I'm sorry I inter interrupt no that's fine that you you were you just said I think that's about it um yeah so thoughts of additional how we should change the FAQs obviously we're going to update them change the language a little bit um we're going to have them updated for town meeting yes yes that's the goal and you'll see them before they become final OB send us suggestions our next meeting is Monday the 25th at 10: a.m. all right uh we don't have meeting minutes to approve I don't think the next meeting uh so now I'll open up for any public comment on we were talking about I know Rosemary Costello as a hand raised yes Rosemary hi Rosemary Costello 12 Ben Street um I was looking through the um web page the NBTA zoning test for web page that you have on uh the town web page and I was wondering if you had I couldn't find a list of what the assumptions are that you're operating under um for just the general understanding like you know you're you want to stay out of the historic district you want to keep um as much of the original existing zoning as possible you know those kind a list of those assumptions that you're you're operating under so we have a document called guiding principles that we adopted which I believe it's there yeah and it's on the website just a different guiding principles so I saw the mission but I didn't it's different from the mission guiding principles um um should be there we can send it to you I'm I mean I'm looking at the website now I'm not seeing guiding principles maybe I'm maybe it's called something else let's see should be called that it's in a black box um it's in a black box if you scroll down aded guiding principles okay got it thank you I was thinking that was a heading for that subsection okay thank you so much okay I think it raises an interesting question whether we should have list of assumptions that pertain to the model I agree yes we need that yes that would really I think help yeah it almost it explains a lot of what we do it's a great idea in other words minimum lot size that back everything that she's included in right she's plugging you're asking for all the inputs yes well the ass well input or assumptions behind the model great idea okay good anyone else from the public nope okay soy can I ask just one technical question um so when you talked about this sub overlay whatever you subri sub District subd district being use my understanding was that if you do mixed use you then need to include more acreage because of theity that's a different that's if we that's mandatory if we had a separate District that required retail under residential then yes that you're right but we we're not doing that okay so only if it's manat okay it is confusing it is confusing it is confusing diabolical no it's yes sir Mr Gates Tim gates to Avenue I've been hling the transportation results of having it's called distant uh locations with an overlay of this 4A and wondering if it's feasible [Music] to accomplish a alleviation transportation to the center of town by taking I think came up some years ago the allotment that the town gets for having the MBTA service and transfering to K bus transportation over wer to set up a scheduled service from these distant location of overway to the center of town I know that they do a bus service for the city of Beverly and another one for the town of Essex and maybe that's one way to get a service for the town of Manchester for this particular situation of an overlay District of 48 purposes I can speak from the finance side sure that we don't receive money from the MBTA we pay money to the MBTA we pay over $100,000 a year to the MBTA from town budget okay well that maybe that I've just got the wrong end of the piece that we would instead take that payment to the MB we can't have pay it to we can't I think you're raising a bigger question it's a state assessment can we can we generalize the question about providing access from outside areas to the downtown and I think it's a very good question it's not really our purview unfortunately I know it's been talked about I think it was discussed with the SLV project as a way of connecting it's been discussed at the select board more recently and I cannot recall where where we went but um um it's I I'll I'll I'll dig it up maybe we can get the beach boms to do the um yes Jitney might take care of it okay any other comments from anyone I'll take a motion to adjourn then so second all in favor ask Mike Mike are you willing to ajour yep I vote [Laughter] Yes cheap shot thank you C