[Music] I'm call to order the Milburn historic preservation Commission meeting January 4th 2024 uh the open public meeting statement in accordance with Section Five of the open public meetings act chapter 231 public laws 1975 be advised that notice of this meeting was made by posting on the bulletin board town hall and serving the the officially designated newspaper a notice stating that this meeting would take place at the Town Hall at 7:30 p.m. on January 4th 2024 announcements roll call Mrs Canfield here Mr Davis here Mr Frankle is absent Mrs Gaylord here Mrs glat is absent Mrs Wanga here Mr Jenkins here uh Mr C here Crystal do you have the O uh they should be are they with your stuff because I had her over yes yep um do you do you want to read along or do you want us all to read along oh no I'm going to do them individually oh okay yeah so after the word I uh you'll say your name okay and then go along and um many people don't realize it but some religions don't swear so in those cases you'll affirm and that's why I say swear or affirm that's the official o i Alison canille swear or affirm swear that I will Faithfully that I will faithfully impartially and justly impartially and justly perform all the duties of the office of commissioner perform all the duties of the office of commissioner of the Milburn historic preservation Commission of the Milburn historic preservation commission to the best of my ability to the best of my ability and that I will support the Constitution of the United States and that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the constitution of the state of New Jersey and the constitution of the state of New Jersey and that I will bear true faith and Allegiance and that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same to the same and to the governments established in the United States and in the state and to the governments established in the United States and in this state under the authority of the people under the authority of the people congratulations thank you so you sign and send it back to them okay um Mr seing raise your right hand I trust and ceing swear or affirm swear or affirm that I will Faithfully that I will Faithfully impartially impartially and justly perform and justly perform all the duties all the duties of the office of commissioner of the Milbourne historic preservation commission the duties of the office of the commissioner of the Milbourne historic preservation commission to the best of my ability to the best of my ability and that I will support and that I will support the Constitution of the United States the Constitution of the United States and the constitution of the state of New Jersey and the constitution of the state of New Jersey and that I will bear truth faith and Allegiance and that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same to the same and to the governments established in the United States and to the governments established in the United States and in this state and in this state under the authority of the people under the authority of the people congratulations so you sign your oath and return c um Mr Jenkins I Brad Jenkins swear or affirm swear that I will Faithfully that I will faithfully impartially impartially and justly and justly perform all the duties of the office perform all the duties of the office of the commissioner of Milburn historic preservation Commission of the commissioner of the Milburn historic preservation commission to the best of my ability to the best of my ability and that I will support the Constitution of the United States and that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the constitution of the state of New Jersey and the constitution of the state of New Jersey and that I will bear true faith faith and Allegiance and that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same to the same and to the governments established in the United States and to the governments established in the United States and in this state and in this state under the authority of the people under the authority of the people congratulations thank you oh you're not on the charod okay well maybe someone else will be all all right uh so this section of the meeting is the election of commission commission officers for 2024 I'll take nominations for the commission chair chair is there second okay thank you um are there any other nominations can I hear a motion to close the nominations so mov all in favor I any opposed uh um so I guess you're going to be the chair but I guess let's find out uh all those in favor of Allison Canfield as the commission chair vote I I any opposed motion carries all thank you thank you well F so we'll switch seats perfect thank you again everyone um I look forward to supporting all of you again and and I appreciate your support over the years so thank you and welcome all the new members welcome we're very excited to have you um we just have some business um first before we can kind of move forward um so the nominations and vot for the commission's vice chair uh will be next uh I would like to make a motion uh for Zach Davis to continue as Vice chair for the HPC second um do you accept this nomination yes all right so Crystal let's just do a roll okay so it's official thank you Mrs Canfield yes Mr Davis would you like to vot for yourself sure yes always Mr Frankle is not here Mrs Gaylord yes Mr Jenkins yes Mr saling yes I said that wrong didn't I Mr ceiling I'm gonna get it right I still said it wrong Mrs glat is not here and Mrs Wanga great uh next uh the appointment of Welcome congratulations appointment of uh the recording secretary Crystal Woods um I again would like to make a motion uh for Crystal to continue as recording secretary for the HPC second thank you do you accept the appoint great so I guess you call your own role Mrs Canfield yes Mr Davis yes Mrs Gaylord yes Mrs Wanga yes Mr Jenkins yes Mr sein I got it right wonderful um up next is authorizing the award of the contract for historic uh preservation commission Council Janine bow um it'll be on it'll be resolution HPC 23-1 I'd like to make an emotion or motion to award cont contract excuse me for historic Preservation Council resolution HPC 231 do I have a second second Mrs Canfield yes Mr Davis yes Mrs Gaylord yes Mrs Wanga yes Mr Jenkins yes Mr sein yes great um thank you very welcome congratulations or maybe not I would also like to take this time to welcome um our new liaison from the TC Frank uh s Mandy Mandy say it again sta Mandy Mandy that's so much easier um as our new Township as I said uh liaison um thank you and welcome to HBC thank a pleasure um next in line will be the schedule of meeting dates um resolution adopting the 2024 meeting schedule I hope everyone had the chance uh to receive the copy had a chance to review it uh Crystal I'm just confirming we considered all holidays school calendar including parents conferences Etc yes perfect uh do we have any questions comments on these dates I didn't never see a copy of the things uh Crystal do you have it's in the pack the pack it's yeah it's in the packet it's in there back of package okay here I can give what we could do Karen is um it was in the stuff that was sent out too in the emails right like I there's something wrong with my computer and printer because you send it by word and I can't you can't see whatever so you know there's a way I can do it get it done but you not easy well we make sure you get a copy yeah okay thank you yes and so do I hear a motion to adopt the 2024 meeting schedule second anyone second thank you um Crystal Mrs Canfield yes Mr Davis yes Mrs Gaylord yes Mrs Wonga yes Mr Jenkins yes Mr sein yes meeting dates have been approved thank you um announcements do any of the Commissioners have any announce announ Ms they would like to make uh like to make tonight hearing none we'll move on to Contin business meeting minutes the approval of meeting minutes the minutes of December 7th 2023 meeting have been distributed to the Commissioners are there any additions or Corrections hearing no changes do I hear a motion to approve motion to approve all in favor say I all those opposed minutes have been approved thank you next we'll move on to memorializations from December 7th application number 557 88 Stewart Road do I hear a motion to approve a motion to approve second second all in favor say I I I all those opposed Memorial of uh memorialization of application number 557 has been approved thank you application number 565 56 Chestnut Street do I hear a motion to approve motion to approve second second all in favor say I I I opposed memorialization of application number 565 has been approved have one more application number 56167 Mont View Avenue do I hear a motion to approve I motion to approve second second all in favor say I I I opposed memorialization for application number 561 has been approved we move on to Old business uh having no old business moves us into new business which we have no new business so [Music] um what I'd like to do at this point um know one second uh with count council's permission um I'd like to open the floor to the public with any comments or questions that they might have um does anyone in the audience here for the public open for a portion of this meeting would any of them like to come forward absolutely please um do you have a timer I don't we can work without the timer we don't have what we'd like to do um do excuse me would you do you need a timer or I mean because I'd rather not time you and well my name is David elant I am hold on one second question comments again like most meeting Commissioners will wait to answer any questions and comments that you have at the completion of all comments and questions okay and then and we will kind of figure out who can best answer that question for you so all I ask is we're all neighbors here and our commission is made up of volunteers so let's please communicate respectfully to each other um during this process so positive and productive results can happen here okay so we're all trying to you have a voice here okay so please be respectful of that so if you'd like to come up again now I'm sorry please come up but I would prefer not to time you if you well um good evening my name is David elepant address Short Hills New Jersey more than 34 years resident in town and I'm here to say no to the new District District a and I'm going to stand here for my 3 minutes and I'd like for you to look at me um I'm permitted three minutes yes you are but again I think it's again tonight I I have spoken words and tonight I'm saying no no no no no no is there anything else you'd like to communicate with us no districting is there anything else you like to share with no districting I encourage everyone to do the same please please thank you thank you any else maybe I'll turn this around EX apologize I'll keep my sign there but um hello everybody Happy New Year my name is anurak kadan I'm a resident of Short Hills uh specifically in the marwood Nottingham District as we kick off this New Year I'm here to share verbally with you my opposition to the nomination of marwood Nottingham District for historic designation in the October 5th meeting where we were invited with a letter most of you were here and you saw the opposition to this nomination in the numbers of residents who were here unfortunately we heard rumors were spread that we were paid hacks we were a mob uh Miss field you just said we are neighbors that's what's being said about us it is also said that we were not residents most of the attendees or public who showed up were not residents so I wanted to make sure I was here David was here a lot of our neighbors were here I handed the signs to 10 people I knew who are around my house so did five others and that's how that number people came from that neighborhood we also sent the certified letters detailing out our opposition with vet signatures from our neighborhood you have the opposition numbers so I'm here to request that the nomination process be actually stopped not just stabled you know we are all opposed majority of the neighbors living in that area when most of the I think it's 150 three properties just within marwood Nottingham uh District why would you go against the will of the property owners and put restrictions on their private property rights when they're all opposed to it I don't think that's how our democracy works and if this is what it takes for us to have our voices heard and that process be stopped we will be here every every Thursday every single first Thursday of the month it doesn't matter it could be just one person because of schedules but we will make sure that we as neighbors these are all our neighbors I know each one of these people and not eight hacks we know the process was bungled we know it was rushed we were given 20 days notice which is the minimum in the ordinance like why why would you do that to neighbors we we could have been given 90 days notice or 3 months people were on a vacation who didn't know about it not only that we received correction on that letter that's a living proof that there was a bungled process and it was a rush process I just don't know why so in closing I would say we're all opposed by listening to us we would like to see action in stopping that process for the marwood loting of district there are I think three other districts I'll make additional comment marwood Nottingham is the only district with majority private residents the other properties short Club not a private residence resident Milbourne downtown majority is business district there are a handful of houses and the third one is around the train station which is again majority commercial we are the only District which is 153 homes and neighbors of yours who will get impacted financially and burdens will be put on us bureaucratically to do anything to our houses mine is a non-contributing but I'm still here so thank you very much for listening but here hear our voices please can I get the correct spell of your name I apologize anur kadan can you spell that a m u r a g okay last name yes k a d y a n I never had to spell my name in Township committee meetings when I spoke I'm just trying to get it I'm I'm just trying to get it correct so I I hope you're not offended by that I I would rather be if the township Committee in my last four comments I've made never asked for it I'm not sure why that is being done here sorry okay is there anyone else that would like to [Music] speak good evening Commissioners my name is Mandel bam milski Township resident for 32 years actually own two properties in the township that are um pretty old I will tell you it it's very extremely disconcerting to be sitting standing here before you today and it seems that our concerns as my neighbors um expressed have completely fallen on deaf ears I would hope it's not the case so I'm coming with an open mind tonight I'm not coming with um statements and coming with questions uh I would hope you know you pass away and you come back down Heaven gives you another chance would you do things differently I probably would myself so having said that I hope that you guys would do the same thing the last time around I will tell you it was very very distressing to have the process illegal illegal there's no other way to say it because the letters that were sent at Township expense all registered letters to 350 whatever the number was contained the paragraph that you now had to reverse at another Township expense $8 or whatever prices went up in 2024 for a registered letter again to the 150 or whatever number you sent that you can't do any work during the pendency of the application which made no sense to begin with but turned out to have been Incorrect and therefore ille leg Al gave people a worry for no reason and was incorrect and I'm surprised the council allowed it to slip through I have a personal beef with your consultant upset I am personally upset that you chose to reappoint the same consultant that led you into this boond doggle in the first place my personal experience with this consultant as you board know um he is less than honest and I can write you a letter in detail the points where he's either OB fiscated or not completely set forth previous better qualified in my opinion of Architects who have pined on the Township's uh housing stock in detailed fashion which he chose not to do in the report that he now issued for you for the process that was tabled he did not follow the statute or the stat statute requires that each house should be listed with its characteristics that contribute to its historic components that's an integral part and a logical part of any attempt to make even one house let alone hundreds of houses historically um important you want to know why the fgi I think that's what they the fgi I think I got that right from fig or fgi people who made the last report and it's on your website and anybody who wants can download it what they did was they went through every home and they indicated how old the house was what method of construction what type of construction what's important which elements have been retained which elements have been tampered with which elements have been completely either covered up or no longer there and which which are therefore considered still important not Barton Ross did not do that he absolutely did not do it was disappointment he is issued a kindergarten grade report list of houses time completely ignored his predecessor fgi who was my opinion as I said much more qualified than him he issued besides that which I'm not going to get into a personal 52-page about my house specifically complete baloney the entire report nothing to do with architecture most of it was census reports from New York City about the person who lived there for about 10 years very disappointing not to mention it impacted me negatively but the report as a report was poor quality was not architectural the historic preservation commission is tasked with making sure that the architectural stock in town is kept or PE or houses of historic significance George Washington Thomas Jefferson I don't know somebody some big singer some summer lived in the house something happened that people know about this individual lived in the house you'd want to keep the house the house is prime example of some interesting type of construction that's what you guys are here for you're not here to make residents just nervous you go into new jersey.gov and it talks about the the job of this HPC it's not supposed to be a contentious process new jersey.gov says the historic preservation commission is here to help you make sure that you don't make construction uh decisions that turn out to be more uh more costly to guide you that's what you guys are here for that's what we're neighbors for that's what I'm living in the town for 32 years and that's what the gener that's what the Pres commission has done this process is a contentious process the process you guys for some mysterious reason undertaken wholesale contentious process the neighbors do do not agree it's an undemocratic process talk about history the first thing that we as Americans have as our history is democracy not just construction if you got 153 homes and 15 or whatever of those 100 don't want their District to be historic I would think that's more important than the architecture of the house that's the that's the bones of our community is our democracy not our lumber so you ask yourself that question yourselves Commissioners do you want to be on the losing end of that conversation some kind of Nanny State and I hate to throw around terms like that it's very distressing very distressing that people have to come give you angst give us angst over a process that shouldn't be contentious in in the first place furthermore what we really like to see which is logic and and fair is a change to the ordinance tal committee can do that put in two words historic districts shall be done with the consent of the majority of the residents we have no problem with people if I don't I I let's say I don't want my house to not come in front of you guys to change my windows let's say the majority of my neighbors thought that that was important I would go along with them I actually would that's democracy that's why we elect historic Township committee people to then make sure that the boards reflect the will of the people I'm not talking about Arcane Concepts here this is ABC of USA that's all we're asking for we we we give you guys a lot of respect you're the ones who do the heavy lifting you show up at the meetings you make the decisions you try to make the the township as beautiful as possible what we're asking for is a little respect in return so I guess I'll I'll end with the question that I started with and that is do you guys and I say that respectfully ladies and gentlemen Commissioners commit to us that going forward this term is going to be different than last term having heard the concerns and having heard the opinions and more people can get up and say the same thing I'm saying in different words will you do things differently will you commit to completely not just tabling as my neighbor said but stopping the process unless and until you have such an extens extensive education process that a majority of the community that you're trying whichever District it is agrees with your opinion let's assume that every person on the commission wants to make a new historic district fine go out with a educational campaign I heard your comment new commissioner few meetings back you think it's wonderful that's great convince us we're not idiots we're all living in town as you said generally speaking the level of Education in the town is pretty high don't think we are incapable of understanding a good argument or a good point being made you think it's so wonderful convince us right now we're opposed to it because we believe it will affect us in a negative way you think it's wonderful come back with a campaign convince us canvas the community just like the politicians do and did when they want to get elected they knock on doors they say here's what I hope it's what I believe vote for me here's what I'd like to see happen nobody would not accept you could come to my house I'll accept you in we'll talk whatever it is if you think it's it very convince us and and right now we're not convinced so we want to know that you hear us we want to know that it's not a top- down process thank you thank you is there anyone else that would like to speak hi HBC I've said some of these things at the Town council meeting before I'm G Short Hills homeowner as is already evident from the um points that my neighbors have made the homeowners whose homes were under this potential historic district are not happy there was no consultation with the impacted home owners and neither was this Choice made through a ballot for the boundaries were created whimsically homes were cherry-picked our house was recently updated and we got our Co in 2023 our permits by the way were approved by the town right the building department the reasoning that this would establish architectural Heritage is not true houses of this area are a mish mash of styles and many houses are getting remodeled as we speak right now with the most ultramodel style so saying that this is 50y old or 100 year old Heritage architecture is absolutely not true to retain period style in some of these homes is also not possible and is going to Yoke the homeowners with additional costs as has already been stated it'll require research and resources for the homeowners in order for the HPC to actually assess all the 153 homes and other districts it'll require serious labor on the part of the HPC and even the bigger question is whether the HPC even has the ability time and the resources to actually do this work right because you all meet once a month for a certain amount of time and only so many hours during the year right um so all of you have to put in the time and resources for such an assessment and evaluation ation and has as has been mentioned in the past in the town commission meetings that we want to maintain a historic and bucolic look is unrealistic thank you thank you is there anyone else hello hi hi thanks for everyone for volunteering for the position we do appreciate we are the residents I am kamod aora I live on Sherwood Road and and thank you everyone for contributing your time and efforts to this committee your time and your efforts and your opinions are valuable use them carefully use them with the residents we are part of the same committee we are part of the same neighborhood we want same things the last time it was done very badly the first time I heard about it was when an official letter came in which took away all my rights please if you want to change this town for better talk to the residents we are not against keeping the town and keeping the Heritage we are against the way it was done it was undemocratic and it was very bad words cannot explain it was someone who takes away all your rights all your rights to property which is fundamental it's very important so I implore you and I request you to use your time that you're contributing voluntarily to do it for the better better of the neighborhood and with the consent of your residents of the neighborhood thank you very much thank you is there anyone else that would like to speake hi PR sha resident of Short Hills I'm on Jefferson Road I just want to Simply say I'm completely opposed to the nomination of the not room Marywood or classification of the norham district and historic district as my community members my neighbors have stated previously the process has been absolutely undemocratic our voice was not heard our voices were ignored when we reached out it should have been the HBC reaching out to us informing us proactively soliciting our feedback our thoughts our comments the reverse happened we all as my neighbor said got the letter we reached out tried to make contact speak send letters and in turn we got silence we got Silence from this entire committee which was very very disconcerting that's not how a community operates we want to be good neighbors we are all neighbors every single person in this room but that neighborhood feel was absolutely lacking and absent from the HBC side so we hope going into or I hope going into 2024 it's a new year that that will be addressed and rectified and this is going to be a collaboration that's going to be a dialogue it's not going to be a unilateral monologue from the HBC to the community thank you so much thank you is there anyone else that would like to speak please hi everyone my name is Jamie Barton I live at 31 Sherwood Road and I fully support everything that was said tonight um this has been a very distressing process for all of us um starting in September with the receipt of the letter I think that rather than rehash everything that's been said I just wanted to um layer on a couple questions that I have um specifically around transparency and accountability of this group um I've been following ever since getting the letter about you know what's been communicated to us I've also been attending the township committee meetings and I recall that there was a discussion around the letter that was supposed to be sent to us in correction of the ordinance that was mentioned in the September letter but the HPC failed to send it so the township committee administrator was going to proceed with getting that letter sent out we received it four days before the end of the year so it was you know timely it was like rushed out but I'm kind of wondering amongst this group what's your process for establishing new business like you just said today no new business well this is a huge Topic in front of us so like to us this is a big you know Hot Topic so I'm surprised that there was no new business to discuss amongst the group um there was no discussion of old business being the letter that was sent out so where is the discussion happening amongst this group for those logistical and you know operational aspects I just I'm curious to understand how everyone in the group is informed of that is there an email that's sent around to the group within the month talking about these things you know is everyone in the group aware of that letter that we just received in the latter part of December as a correction to a letter in September so that is my question like what's your process how is this information being shared amongst the group as well as with all of us I know that going to the website not all of the minutes are posted from previous meetings we've had challenges with meetings being cancelled very much last minute so you know that I think is something that we're interested in understanding as well it's a very operational administrative question to the group but I think it's important for this group some of you being new and us to understand thank you is there anyone else hi my name is Swagat aari and I'm a resident of shorts uh I don't have too much much to add you have already heard a lot from my neighbors all I would like to say is the process that you started last year maybe around September or earlier it is for you to please bring it to an end right you need the township committee cannot do anything the HBC needs to if I'm right about the rules you need to pass the motion to make the earlier motion null and void please and then if you want to do something else please please invol the community again thank you thank you anyone else okay I'd like to then close the public meeting open public meeting at this time um a lot of questions I first want to start out by saying we do hear you okay and we are listening um there are a few um pieces here that uh the reason that we tabled this particular designations we tabled these particular designations is because we did realize as a commission that we needed to do more education um so a lot of what we heard about uh personal rights uh the cost EX ET Etc we chose to take this year to meet those needs of answering the questions and how the process works um maybe uh Janine if you could please help me with a few uh some of the more uh logistical questions on the actual process and really what Authority we have as a commission so again we are going to do some education and we are going to answer everyone's questions okay about why how we got where we did and hopefully what direction we take from that point forward but I think there's a lot of misinformation out there and what we want to do is we want to clarify all of that so first of all our job as a commission is to bring forward what we feel is important in our community from a history standpoint and I appreciate everyone's input but that history also includes the land not only just you know not just the architectual piece or not just one individual house so in other words probably all of our houses and let me also State as far as I know there are four of us that live in a historic house so we're not people up here that are just not understanding personal rights costs Etc okay so I don't know if that gives anyone anybody a better feeling about you know historic but we're not just somebody that's never faced what living in a historic house is so it's important for us to educate you the way we were educated so that's hence the letter that I put out that we would we would be tabling this until we can educate everyone on the process okay um there's a lot of information out there a lot of information and I have to say that probably three4 of it is untrue okay and we know how that works so we're going to and every town is specific to their historic properties so again we're talking from a state level to then a more local level as to how we designate so without saying too much more the process in which there's every single District or house okay that we went forth to designate has been on the element of the master plan since 1991 okay so again this isn't something we just picked out of the hat and said we're going to Target these people okay or these houses not only that the Short Hills district which we know exists and the Wyoming District which we know we it exists in history the Nottingham marrywood District would have been designated at the same time time that those two districts were designated but financially the town did not support that in other words not that it wasn't historic that it the to financially survey the properties okay so let's just start with that and I agree with you let's keep this line of communication open but I think the only way we can be productive is to respect one another and work through it as it needs to be worked through okay and that is why we did table it that is why we withdrew you know and again Janine can get into more specifics about the legal part of that so if you don't mind Janine [Music] sure um so the one thing I want to um a few people addressed the uh can you hear me a few people addressed the uh the subject of consent and uh consent is an interesting topic under the municipal land use law which controls um everything that all the land use boards do the planning board the zoning board and this board uh none of the boards are allowed to act outside of the uh constraints of the municipal land use law um the mun land use law and the state constitution require property to be um uh treated equally if you will I mean those are not the exact words but sort of in a lay way and therefore even though there is actually a protest provision in our ordinance and some of you may have taken advantage of that I know I was on the receiving end of people who retained Council and sent in a letter you know which was very simple usually just a one-page letter saying I I protest I object to my property being included um there's not really case law or good case law to advise commissions and and Council who advise commissions or even planning boards or zoning boards as to what that means and from an historic uh perspective the Secretary of interior standards which is the other sort of guideline that we go by or the the local version of it um you can't really have an historic district where people get to pick and choose among themselves whether they object because what happens then is the historic district loses what's called Integrity uh because somebody might have a very historically significant house but who has objected to that and then decides to tear it down or modernize it or something like that and pretty soon you have like all these like pockmark pock marks of non-compliance with the district and this same thing is true of a zoning District if you have a zoning District that's single family residential and somebody decides that they don't like that and they protest let's assume that that work true um they protest that and then they have a multifam house or they have a house of worship where it's not where it doesn't meet the standards or you know anything anything that's not complying with single family which is the only thing that's zoned for then you don't have a single family District anymore and everything becomes chaotic um so that's why there has to be an historic district with integrity and sort of equality not equality like everybody has is the same or you know worth the same value or anything like or certainly every historic district has different kind of styles because that's how they develop and that's one of the things that actually um lends Credence to the fact that it is an historic district based on the way it's developed in the years in which it was constructed and so on and so forth but um so so we received those letters and I'm not sure what if the nomination for instance had gone forward and the township committee and planning board had adopted it because we only make the recommendation we don't have the power to adopt an historic district we make a recommendation to Township committee Township committee does whatever it wants to do and there in lies the important part of your democracy I'd certainly take all your points about the Democracy but um we're appointed people and we don't have the power to make an historic district so um so if if if the nomination had been recommended and let's say the township committee had decided to move forward with it and adopt it and it became uh law so to speak um I'm not sure what would happen with those protest letters so I think the the interesting thing for us to think about this year is how do we deal with the idea that owners want consent for a historic district because an historic district is a zoning district and you don't have consent for any other type of zoning any type of zoning District um I feel very confident that if a if a case like that went to court and somebody wanted to you know take it all the way through the spe court and the Appel division or whatever uh that would be struck down I mean and that's the Democratic process the minority or the single doesn't get to control um so that's just kind of like the 15,000 foot layer maybe it's not 30 but it's 15 and those are the things that we have to struggle with because obviously if it's unpopular even if it's unpopular in a large minority of of you know the residents of you know somebody said 153 or maybe a couple of you said that um you know the elected and appointed officials because the appointed officials are appointed by the elected officials they have to pay attention to the people and that you heard the oath ultimately we We Serve the People U so that has to be taken into account I think it was taken into account um not only by this commission and tbling it but uh by the um uh by the the people in the elections and the township committee and the continuing appointments and so on and so forth um that's but the process isn't going to change in the sense that I mean the communications will change the education will change and all the things that the chair just said but the process is the process I mean that's set forth in Municipal landuse law um we do a study just like the planning board might do a Redevelopment area study or an area in need of Redevelopment or Rehabilitation study or blight study or anything like that and then it goes to the township committee and they decide what they want to do with it so in that sense we have stopped the process we haven't stopped it to your satisfaction I understand that but we stopped it by tabling it so it's not going anywhere that has to be picked up off the table like one of you said you know there has to be another motion um so it has to be picked up off the table with another motion and then something done with it for anything to happen at this point um so so right now we're going to focus our concentration on answering everyone's questions um Al giving them real information hard facts um about values of homes uh how you know I again there's a whole list I also want you to know that none of us took this likly I vented over 140 calls so I'm surprised uh I had an open Line my own personal phone that anyone could have called and there are a few of you that I've invited and had invited to call me personally so we could at least talk and me try to help educate what was going on and what was happening and and and how again we're doing our job by pull pushing this forward to the TC so we really don't have power but to explain why this neighborhood is considered historic how long it been considered historic um so we are a working board and unfortunately the boards before us uh really didn't necessarily take on some of these projects I think if if I could encourage all of you and I think please I do not think that you're not intelligent or and whatever that comment was I do understand what you're saying I encourage you if you live in a particular historic district is to look at go to the museum the society have them look up the Nottingham Marywood District you can see that it is listed in historic documents to be designated all the way back to 1978 so again we took that and moved it Forward okay because that's my job I'm doing my job what I was appointed to do and that is to bring forward to the TC for them to make a decision whether or not it's historically significant okay so again we're not doing anything and we want to open that dialogue uh we want to talk to each and every one of you if we have to um we're also uh in the process of trying to set up public meetings and you are welcome to come to those and ask any questions our consultant um our attorney might possibly be able to attend some of those and and we'll let you know in advance um I mean I did like the idea that if if we could talk to you and we could and I saw some of you shaking your heads and explain the process and and what we're trying to do um and also explain that your personal rights um you know are not being violated um again you can speak to Commissioners that own historic houses and we would say that also there's some things that I I hope I can share and uh now that we have a a liaison from the TC but for some time now we've been working on some tax relief okay for people that want to uh do any Renovations or anything uh to their homes so uh we'll be working on that with some of the new members of the TC we will continue to work on that um if you want to read more about how that benefits is Westfield took that on um their local government took that process on too um and again it's just saying can you help us restore um what we consider to be historic and we thank you for doing so so again these are things that we want everybody to know about okay but I also don't want you to think that we're not listening and I and again we listen to you from the very beginning and that's why we tabled it to give us some time to regroup and say what could we do better right and how can we support you okay but bottom line is we're not the ones that are making the final decision okay that would that is the TC they make the final decision but to stop the process as of us pushing these historic districts forward um that would be a shame okay or at least to present them to the TC and let them uh then make that decision at that time okay um is there I hope we were able to answer most of the questions did anyone hear one that Elizabeth no I was just gonna say I mean I think there was you know I think we've all said that we're volunteers here and there was a comment made that we've canceled meetings and and Crystal does a great job of making sure we have a quorum but a lot of us do have jobs that do take us to the city and I've been responsible for it I got home at 6:30 tonight and had I missed that train I would have called Crystal and said I wasn't coming so we have had to cancel meetings because people are sick you know because everybody not everybody here but quite a few of us do have other jobs that you know sometimes we can't get home um in time for this meeting and that just happens you know we have kids we have families that also and unfortunately sometimes we don't get a quorum so Crystal emails us repeatedly throughout the week to make sure we're going to be here and sometimes we just can't be here so I just wanted to say that that is why some things get canceled at the last minute and I have been responsible for ruining the Quorum but I I I would also like to add to that one of the comments was that we meet once a month um that's not true it's not that we don't we have a minor work Review Committee so when that meets and that is literally every week we have applications come through minor work is defined um I don't want to go into all of that but we have a response for you within a matter of days so what we did or as I when I became chair we streamlined the process because I did understand I went through it too I live in a historic house I remember what it was like before I was uh here sitting in this position so for me it was my mission to make it easier and make it more friendly and to answer all those questions and again like I said I took personally 140 calls and not one of them was under 45 minutes so I am here to answer any question that you have but give us some time to regroup and put some public meetings together and maybe we can have some Dialogue on all of this um and and I'm hoping you give us that opportunity okay um see was there Zach would you again I just encourage you in the meantime before you come it's just and I know um you did some research on how it's uh more costly and it's financial burden and and all of that I was another Resident from our district but did you not I thought you came forward okay no I apologize um I think today I think it was deep Shaka and I think in Township committee was R I believe yeah okay I I think we can show and prove to you especially in Short Hills Milburn that that is not true his a historic property does sells in right around the equal time um usually for more money um so there's a lot of benefits to um historic district and historic house there's no fee um so again we want to kind of eliminate the myths and and tell the truths and then at that point if you still feel the same way and and about this we respect that we hear you okay um anyone like to add anything to this or can I make just one minor oneliner comment on something sure thank you I think U Madame Council mentioned that 153 is my minority that's a minority in total Short Hills but the district we are talking about are 153 150 will be a Beyond super majority so if we are talking about democratically Short Hills as a town saying many would should be let's do a referendum we'll do our education and anybody who's in favor can do that I think that that's when that comment would be valid but that's all I want to say thank you than for that it is it did make me think of one more thing the element of the master plan okay is online I think there's over 600 yeah if you can give me the exact number so nobody thinks that I'm there are historic properties all over this town that are still yet to be recognized recognized means we don't know that they're histor we don't know that they've been built on and and the historic architecture has been destroyed okay we don't know that takes money right so we take these as we get permission to move forward we take these and are able to do a full report to identify them if they are contributing or non-contributing okay um and I'm hoping we'll be able to explain all of this to you in these public forums which again we are right now in the process of trying to schedule I needed you know to get our new team in here and that I'm very happy about we have um Justin um our youngest member who worked for the uh Historic Society over the summer um you know we're we're anxious to uh kind of collaborate and and try to figure out how we can make this a better process for everyone um so whatever happened was not intentional okay we know now I will take full responsibility and I promise you moving forward let's keep this line of communication open okay um if no one has if I missed a question please um in order to be more transparent I think one thing that would be helpful is to have virtual meetings or the ability to have virtual streaming options because otherwise only inperson live meetings are very prohibitive for a lot of people right it's not funny but just about it just said that moving forward we were going to do that so the same way that the TC does will do the same thing where they have the zoom and you can you can come on and watch it and then raise your hand we're going to implement that too we just have to figure out how we're going to do it I think it'll work exactly the same but that'll be an option going forward so again we're listening okay you just need to tell us without you know what I mean just just tell us um and certainly um I don't want to yell out my personal number but if you if you call Crystal she will direct you to me directly or if you leave her your number I am more than happy to spend however long it takes to explain the process legal I might have to have some help here um or if you feel more comfortable this shy guy next to me my vice chair he can answer any questions that you have too and I think any of my Commissioners if you feel more comfortable um with one of them okay so again we are going to go full transparency here okay so let's work together and then at that point please allow me to do my job and then at that point it goes on then for someone else to make the final decision okay anybody else first of all I want to thank you all for coming tonight um I really appreciate this um I'm sorry we didn't do it sooner uh timing was really bad um I think everyone can agree um right now we are doing our best to kind of pull back and say listen um and I'm sorry that wasn't more out there to all of you so again I will take full responsibility to make it right okay um if there are no more questions or if I've answered everyone at least for right now and more to come you may get very sick of me by the time we get out done here vice versa so right now um if we could move forward if everyone is okay with that the public thank you very much and again happy New Year and we really do appreciate you being here and let's start New Year okay um if I can move on to discussion items uh next month uh we will uh list on the agenda for discussion a proposed amendment to the township ordinance uh to ensure the properties that are historically significant are not torn down because because they're not presently covered under the demolition coordinates um or for unknown reasons falling through the cacks unintentionally um so I think that's going to be important um so you uh you'll see that on next month's agend okay do we have any other discussion items [Music] or okay um having none this concludes the meeting meeting um happy 2024 everybody um I move to adjourn do I have a second second great this meeting is adjourned thank you guys