all right in accordance with Section Five of the open public media Acts chapter 231 Public Law 1975 be advised that a notice this meeting was made by posting on the Bolton board town hall and mailing to the officially designated newspapers a list of the meeting dates annually indicating this meeting would take place at Town Hall 7 pm on May the 6 josei here here here Gary Rosen here TR hereen pen here Jessica GL here cig here um first up this evening we'll have approval of minutes for March 18th to 24 um any corrections or changes regarding set minutes if not can I have a motion to adopt I'll make a motion thank you minute a second I'll second all those in favor a second thank you all those in favor anyone opposed uh next up we have two memorializations this evening uh starting with calendar 39723 uh richel wi 29 South Mountain Road in Melbourne um who's eligible on this um this is 397 yeah uh shandre Amy Gary Priscilla Jessica Craig okay um any corrections or changes to that memorialization if not can have a motion to uh approve that move approval calendar 397 and a second second thank you Char sh oh yes Amy Lawrence yes Gary Rosen yes Jessica glad yes Craig Clinton yes next you have calendar 39 6624 same crew yes okay um can I any questions or changes to that memorialization uh can I please have a motion then move approval memorialization for calendar number 3966 24 thank you a second second shandrew hard yes Amy Lawrence yes Gary Rosen yes Jessica glad yesner yes next up we have two um extensions onee extensions regarding previously approved applications uh first being calendar 38 8922 um is there any objection or further testimony regarding that on Cornelius SC n Bailey Road just e what's the reason for the um large percentage of the building costs for contingent on selling an investment property and the Auer was withdra withdrawn but they since um been renting it out and are now ready to they will be ready to go forward with within the year thank you okay um if there's no issue with that can I have a motion to extend that um that request for a year motion to approve the application and a second please I can second thank you Joseph pfield yes sew yes yes Gary Rosen yes reg TR yes Jessica yes yes next up calendar 3822 indriani and desid bannery at 100 Cano Brook Road also requesting a one-year extension and the reason for their extension I don't have a reason in his EMA as I just did and they not requesting any change to the uh to the application no um I I have another question about this which is isn't this like almost two years well that's the only thing it is a it expired um in 2022 both both did there's still 22 applications no this one was um it was heard in if this one 3889 22 started in 22 right appr until four times a little B more recent yeah she she said or somebody said uh per others from 10 for our discussion last week we would like to request an extension did you did you recall what if anything Mr Clon said as to the circumstances I remember the application yeah I do the top one story addition to rear the house back yeah um do you want to get more color on or yeah it's really up to the board I mean typically we hear you know reasons to justify the extension request and Municipal landu is not here it was s request um you know the board could Grant you know subject to the applicant or uh their architect providing that that information um or we can just carry it to the next me yeah let's carry it and ask him for make sure I want to make sure there's no changes like for uh that so we're carry 3872 right now we're jump into our applications um we're changing the order just a little bit um as we're bringing up 39632 uh 23 first which is of Michael andon ganella at 35 Adams is that this matter has been carried the other ones for this evening are new business so start with G thank you Mr chairman however one of our Witnesses just recently parked and she's not here and she needs to be here right now to um um then then fine we move forward with like is she sparking like I don't know where but she's the m where she's parking so is she going to go first start uh she's the planner can I ask Amy and Jessica you were refusing that's really why I want to do this first so just I heard someone come up I don't these are all still SE correct you know let's go let's we'll start you let's go 39762 24 um that's 21 Troy Drive yeah was on down speak where you in so everyone we can the same yeah if everyone can raise their right hand you swear ref from testimony about the tonight hearing the truth FSE truth truth your name to the record spelling uh Harrison Barony last name b a r a n y sh y s h a h l a y a s s i y y i n g l i we like to first okay yeah hi I am Shala yaser and I am the um owner of 21 Troy drive along with my husband yaser Nas unfortunately he couldn't be here because he's traveling for work and we are here because we are U planning um for an addition to our house um and um we ran into the issue of the variants which is I think relatively new bylaw so give it up to Yes um do I need to yes okay uh yes my name is Jing Le I'm the architect for the Edition for 21 try um Road and um I have I'm register Artic at in New Jersey and New York and uh I have Bachelor of art architecture from um Ton University in China and I have urban planning um master of um urban planning from University in Pennsylvania um my licens in good standing and you testified from this board correct yes I have testified accept please receive all right so um the design of this um addition actually started in early 2023 um when we set out uh the existing house only has one existing non-conforming condition which is uh the Dan on the left side and has basically so we started this design with the intention of not triggering variance so we decided to keep that then intact so that the same thing stays right now in this design the 10 will stay the roof the structure will stay will be just basic re Roofing reciting so that is one item that's going to be um existing noncon forming but no change um uh what we decided to do is to achieve higher ceiling for larger um addition we decided to demolish the existing first and second floor and construct um a building um but keep the existing Frontage of the house but when the design finished and then when we about to apply for permit we realize that uh the zoning ordinance has been updated in the fall September of last year um so the then conforming front your setback of 42 no longer was no longer conforming and actually the new ordinance required to take the aage with that we know we're off actually to disend how much off so we have the E2 um PM company to basically redo the survey of the neighbor uh house in the neighborhood and as you can see we are not a little bit off or very off so with the new ordinance uh the required will be and2 feet from the front yard so with that if you look at the second page of the drawing with the basically L1 100 there is a red darted line that's that's basically taking the required prevaling front your set back that's basically more than 100 feet with that that means basically they're going to put the house pretty much in the backyard yeah it's not um so that's basically the reason for the variance and um so let's get to the bottom line here are you making your condition worse we are not making the condition worse and then for all reasons because yeah for reasons the Landfield and also neighbor does not want to look it will affect the street so and then I guess this is where Mr Baron is going to come in to testify how they basically according to the new ordinance how they came up with basically the the new front y setback yeah the new ordinance is a bit of a debacle yes and then it's so we're fixing that okay all right so that's good to know you want a trap yes yeah brief yeah you can just further highlight how unreasonable okay on so just provide your name sure uh my name is Harrison Bary again last name b a r n y I'm a professional engineer licensed in the state of New Jersey and I've testified to post board before my license is current in good standing I work with E2 project management in Rockway New Jersey um and you're testifying as as a an Eng that's correct yes so just to further um discuss the information information about the front yard setback variants that we're requesting the ordinance the new ordinance what they require is to calculate the average prevailing front yard setback of the properties um three adjacent properties to you on either side of your property um and so in doing that we had our surveyors go out there uh take the required ele shots of the front of the houses and um speaking with the zoning officer and confirming we uh we were required to have a front yard setback of 102.6 ft from the street um and now I I did prepare uh an exhibit um to basically just uh outlines the the street that we uh the house is located on and the existing setbacks the these are the houses that are located across the street from us these aren't part of the uh the calculated setback if I may distribute them to the board we going to mark them as a one can ask you a question as we doing that so you prepared the um the plans that were submitted with the application right that's correct and on figure one revision a um it says on the top there in the middle prevailing front yard setback 92.7 yes so how do we get to 102 from there so when we did the original um calculation ourselves there's a property um it's lot one it's three doors Three Doors Down to the South that property um is their driveway comes off of Troy drive and their property's tucked behind the house next to them so it's essentially looks like a flag lot their setback to the the property line is 185 fet so with that setback in the calculation that provides a huge skew and what you're provided so basically 30 feet it provides an additional 30 feet with the average if you were to count that property so we yeah no I understand all that I I see lot one 185 foot I'm just saying you have your prevailing front yard set back 92.7 right so in our calculation we we took the property even further down from that we added another property because it was providing more of an accurate setback we did that in our calculation we got a lower number the zoning officer said no you should just include the three properties adjacent to us so we we said sure we can do that so the real number is 102.6 which what the zoning officer provided thank you sure now what you have in front of you I have a larger copy here the property's across the street directly across the street from us and just down the average front setback as you can see between each of those properties is very similar to ours our existing is 42 feet roughly and there's vary from 41 feet to to 54 feet so as you can see it's not um an odd setback to find on that neighborhood or in the street per se um and like uh the architect had said before we're not really proposing any uh detriments of the property and en roaching further into the property we are providing a 3ot wide canopy across the front door so with that we are that's why we're asking a variance uh it's 37.2 feet is the the required setback that we're asking for our proposed structure um just you have a plan of wor showing the canopy yeah it's on our figure one in the architect it's it's located here at the dash line on the right side of the page there so again we had just talked to the zoning officers in the in the ordinance it discusses that any projections two feet or shorter they don't count towards building coverage or towards the building setback this is a three-foot canopy so therefore um they said it does count for the setback even though there's no structural columns attached to it so we had to take that canopy as our new front setback it's only three feet more it's again not structural there's no structural columns it's just the canopy can't to leave it over the door um and so that is the variance that we're requesting is is uh for the proposed front setback of 37.2 feet or 40.2 was the existing before and as you can see with the exhibit I provided uh does match the the area uh existing front setbacks of the other properties yeah this first three houses drive car larger home your house that's right so um yeah so it's kind of an unusual situation there um any questions clarification is this a side yard setback or a front yard setback VAR actually on your it's a front yard it's a front yard documents side okay thank you the sidey is also challenged questions um anything further go ahead question so you're how far out are you extruding it Beyond it's existing three it'll be 3 feet but it's just the canopy yeah just the canopy and then there's some steps as well cor there's some steps in the front yeah they're improving those as well yeah in other words without the new um updated um zoning ordinance in Fall then that would be the that would be the three feet will be the deviation we are looking for it's because of the new ordinance it became like way off and and then the the difference between the two calculation between the zoning officer and the the civil engineer is um um because the civil engineer took the outlier the extreme outlier out so but we on the form we use the number by the zoning officer that's it and are you building over that Den or is the den Remain the den remains yeah remain yeah one story and the structure remain it will be just residing to match with the new house and the re Roofing but it stays any questions to the architect in that case I will close the whole portion hearing so uh oh sorry any sorry yeah any questions from the public orance application any comments from the public regarding this application now I close to the public um board members what say you what's your thoughts well this is a hard ship um you know it's clearly an unintended consequence of the new ordinance um you know otherwise it would have just been you know a much more you know more minor variant that they're seeking so um I would have no problem approving this application I agree this is an intend consequence of this which we are correcting currently um unfortunately it doesn't work real well in our town so but we'll we'll make it right eventually um so I I too find this to be just kind of caught up in a in a seat variance and um no problem supporting application in that case can I have a motion i' like to make a motion to approve a second a second Joseph pfield yes shre hard yes Jamie Lawrence yes Gary Rosen yes yes yes yes the project thank you good yes Amy can stay and listen what's that can she listen and participate just not vote if they go to vote yeah we can actually participate in comment on the testimonies before us tonight like v stand one down good evening Mr chairman members of the board Anthony Silla with the law offices of lence forcillo in Milburn uh as you know this is a continuation hearing of mar 18 2024 and at that time we heard board members comments we heard the neighbors comments and as a result the applicant has diminished building coverage and lot coverage has lowered the proposed height of the fence and changed its style is proposing installation of 40 Hedges along Taft Drive thereby creating more open space along Taff drive and simultaneously screening the proposed fence from Taff drive I have three Witnesses this evening uh civil engineer John manilia who was previously sworn homeowner Michael ganella and Katherine surad our professional planner who also previously was sworn I have ready in the bullpen architect Dan D agustino in the event there are any questions of the architect ready to call my first witness Mr chairman go ahead John manilia good evening uh so I have an exhibit I'm gonna Mark as you've been previously act as if you're SW correct um so I'm not sure where we're at with exhibits we on uh four here's some o exhibits I think A3 was the last exhibit to rotate all right so A4 is an exhibit entitled ganella residence site exhibit with today's date it's a color rendition of the site plan that was submitted uh with the Landscaping shown um aerial with the property highlighted yellow um the zoning tabulations and a detail of the proposed fence um as Council has stated earlier um there are three changes uh to the plans that were submitted previously I'll go through those in a little more detail um the first one is building coverage um so the two areas that were on either side of the pool house have been converted from roofed areas to um open trellises and then the uh northeast corner of the uh dwelling was converted from a roofed area to an open trellis as well and that's the outdoor dining area so the total building coverage was reduced um from 7657 square feet to 7100 square feet so a little over 550 feet of building coverage was removed from the previous application or previous submission um as far as impervious coverage uh there was a minor tweak not not a a lot that was given up but um we looked at areas around the pool that could have been given up as far as impervious coverage um and two areas that we saw were on either side of the uh proposed uh patio where a fire pit will be um and those will be planted areas as well uh for a reduction of about 50 square feet of impervious um from 36.6% to 36.5% um again I want to reiterate that we are proposing uh storm water as as um in the form of drywalls um and that will treat approximately 7,150 Square ft of impervious coverage so all the new impervious coverage is being treated in this new Drive we and when the house was um granted building permits for the original house that's being built today uh that was designed as well for almost a 6,000 square foot um system that would treat 6,000 square feet of impervious so right now with the two systems um a little over 13,000 square feet of impervious is being treated um where previously there was nothing as far as treatment when the house was that was there prior was was in existence and that house was just under 13 ,000 ft total impervious uh lastly the last change we made was with fencing and Landscaping uh so previously when we came in front of the board uh we had a six foot solid privacy fence that was black uh very modern and it was against the property lines on all sides of the property along the side and then along the frontage of ta Drive um that has been revised it is now a 4ot black ornamental fence uh similar what you would see in uh typical pool applications which is shown right here um and that is now against the property lines along the side and then as we are on ta drive we offset it 20 feet from the RightWay line um and it proceeds until it gets to the Colac and at that point it follows the existing um fence line there was an existing fence that was there that's coming out and it will be replaced with this new black ornamental fence uh additionally we are proposing 40 um shrubs that will form a hedge uh they'll be skip Laurels um and they'll be right against the fence um again that will leave Green Space um on the other side of the fence between that and the RightWay and that was some of the concerns that the uh neighbors had at the last mov that's the summary of the proposed changes to the plans skips are going to be on which side of the fence uh they'll be on the tap side correct so once again I don't really think I ever got the answer to my question last time was obviously with brand new house here was this all this stuff contemplated when you design the house um so we do have the applicant here and I think that was the missing piece of the puzzle last time as far as why and what transpire during the process um so that testimony will be provided because I mean your changes are best n so I'm kind of puzzled here um I respect that I mean I think as far as as the lot coverage that was slight as far as building coverage on the building itself the house itself is right at the the requirement so anything that we would oppos would be um a variance for building coverage all right so let's see if we get the answer to that question y definitely can you just identify on your Sho A4 where the reduction took place in terms of building coverage sure so there are three areas I show point to it it's on the west side of the pool house the east side of the pool house and in the northeast corner of the um house that's under construction you change from solders to tr correct per the definition in the ordinance it's not considered building coverage anymore so roofed area just you said the fire pit change I'm looking at both the prior one and this one where how dides that change uh so either side of the wings of that fire pit is now um landscaped area it's not um it's not papers it's 50 squ feet microscope and that thought is reduced by 50 correct1 correct any questions further for go ahead next any questions from the audience we'll have comments at the end if there's any okay I Mel hi everyone he wasn't correct you s from testimon about to G proceeding the truth trth truth yes your name for the record please Michael G thank you are you the property owner yes did you hear the question of Mr yes chairman yes can you please address that absolutely so first and foremost I apologize for not being able to send the initial meeting I had to be away uh I didn't mean any disrespect to the to the committee uh so with respect to the question at hand uh when we first purchased a home my wife and I thought about how we were going to be you know using the home what our lives are going to look like and I think at the time we had purchased the home the idea was we were not actually going to be spending time uh locally during the summer so uh because of covid my office uh changed its policy so we are a five day week firm uh for 10 months of the year but for July and August we can all work from home and because of that that flexibility our plan had been to uh purchase a beach home and spend these Summers down the down the shore uh two major on top of that as we started planning for our home uh my father-in-law was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease uh my wife is an only child and it was important for her that her parents live with us uh so we expand you know you know they're proud people they didn't want to leave their home we really wanted them to be with us they were elderly so we expanded our house so that we could fit you know like an in-law area for them so they would feel comfortable and they wouldn't be you know again proud people we don't want them to be uncomfortable and so forth so we put in an elevator we we built this kind of old area for them so that my wife could be could be there for them so that's actually why we ended up building the house bigger and we thought to ourselves look we're gonna have this beach house you know we're not going to use this space it's no big deal uh two two major things changed since then from our thinking and one uh we were very naive because what we found out is our kids you know our thought was okay great our kids can be can be with us and what I've come to realize as my kids have gotten older is no uh their Athletics their school and so forth requires them to be here uh more and more during the summer so that was going to be a problem to go and essentially moved somewhere for a couple of months uh and the other thing uh is uh you know the the financial strain it was just it was going to be difficult for us um uh to purchase something down the shore and we decided look and more importantly especially as the house was coming along we really fell in love with the area really fell in love with people we really fell in love with uh what we were building and we said why would we ever want to leave this place uh and we said look let's let's build a backyard that's kind of commenor it with with the house so in short that's that's the background of of why we did it and the timing of when we did it um any questions what would happen if you made the PO house smaller or did made some attempt to get some of these numbers to comply how bad would that be for you I mean look it's not the house the Hobbies of the house is already nearly look I'm you know Al honestly I my My Hope was just to have a really beautiful backyard and to you know be able to invite the neighbors over you know one thing I've did as soon as I moved into the neighborhood uh we have a an email chain for everyone in our in our kind of kind of little subsection and I said look the first thing I'm going to do when my house is built is I'm going to have everyone over for drinks and backyard and you know look we're in entertainment like we love to entertain something we love to do um so you know look if that's what it takes that's what it takes look we're amable and ultimately look I just want to make sure we we finish the home we've been doing this process for a long time we're an inconvenience to all of our neighbors um you know I want to get this done obviously for us but also for them just you know so forth uh in fact I've actually brought everyone who is neighboring my my land they've they've come here I've talked to all of them I think you'll find that all of them are rable to everything we've been discussing you know I've I've told the team look especially from a water standpoint spare no expense it's super important to me look we are I want to be the best neighbor possible and I don't want anything that we do to inter to interfere in any way shape or form with any of our neighbors uh we want to make you know we're super amendable we're super nice like I we're looking to do something really nice here and just uh to do something that I think is really good for the whole kind of area so I don't doubt for a second your neighborly intentions what what the conversation we had last meeting when you were here was that you have a substantially oversized lot of Zone substantially oversized you're 17 or 18,000 square feet over the alotment um yet you have exorbitant um deviations on top of that so from our perspective we have to look at it as saying is the is is this good planning is this good use of the zoning plan and master plan say we have a lot that's ex that's you know extens oversized for for the area yet we're overdeveloping it substantially and one of the conversations we had was honestly I thought we was going to come back with the fence applications because I kind of thought that's the message we got across but here we are just making some tweaks um so it becomes very difficult to look at this thing and say okay well we have this enormous development in the backyard on a hugely oversized lot and we're just blowing past all of it um so from a from a a C1 or C2 perspective the way we look at it here on this board it's hard to fit it into those PLS completely understood and like I said if we had planned better I guess initially um this would have been better dealt with I think our lives just really changed a lot in the in the period of time when we were doing this process um I it's unusual though in this town to build a house of this you know size and and and complexity and not have some sort of develop backyard so that's this why I find this this whole thing a little hard to believe that as I addressed my question to to your professionals originally was how is this not contemplated when this is original we have a huge lot of building a substantial home substantial investment and usually the the you know the stuff that goes along with these homes usually a pool I mean you know maybe other stuff you can live it up but you have a pool so it's it's so hard for me to comprehend that this was not contemplated yeah no understood I promise you it was something that we really thought we were not going to be here for the Summers uh in fact the last two summers we completely left the area uh again because the flexibility my office has um and it to us it like it just didn't make sense why am I gonna have a pool that I'm not goingon to open all summer it just seemed kind of a little bit weird to me uh and that's why we didn't proceed with it but I completely understand where you're coming from because I agree with you I think in know a rational way of thinking is is exactly what you said I think situation is is a big unique because we really were not planning to be here all summer no I understand that I said you know we we look at it from Municipal perspective not from owner's intentions because obviously our decisions from the land not you as the owner so you set this house tomorrow someone else moves in and that's and whatever their intentions are their intentions are of course so we have to look at it as saying okay you know from planning perspective from a master plan Zone plan doesn't make sense to overd a lot that's substantially oversized of course I completely understand and that's why I've asked the team to make 100% sure to spend whatever I have to spend to make sure from a water mitigation standpoint we are going far above and beyond that's obviously one component but you know from the land use perspective and and honestly that is not something this board it's not really into the purview of this board it's a engineering it has to has to approve that and if that doesn't get approved you can't move forward anyway so so from that perspective yes that has to be dealt with regardless but we're we're we're a different board than that you know we look at it from perspective perspective I understand any other questions for Mr then I'll throw back to you cather's been previously sworn cor good evening cine s good how are you just restate Katherine San last name spelled s a r m a d thank you for having me back tonight um so as you heard from the engineer there have been some modifications to the plans which do impact the variance relief um previously at the last meeting it was discussed that there are four conditions in which variants both variants relief is being sought um two of those conditions are not changing at all they're related to um the configuration of the lot having dual Frontage along tap drive and Adam AV um and the um there is no rear yard setback there's two front yard setbacks as a result and so those variances are not changing at all however the numerical values for the uh two other variances for the lot coverage and building coverage are changing as you heard from the engineer um I wanted to mention I did hear some of the uh feedback at the previous meeting I did look at some of the surrounding homes um it's you know very difficult to um discern the um the lot coverages exactly or the uh impervious coverage exactly um even from having tax data but I can say that uh there are a number of lots in the surrounding area that have um improvements to their yards uh they have there's about 10% of the 20 or so homes around Taft Lake Adams and um Shore Edge that have uh tennis courts and about 20% of them have pools in the backyard so they do have improvements I think as you mentioned that would go with the quality of the homes in the area um this is by no by no means the largest home the the principal structure the largest home in the area um uh but there are is a diversity of um new builds and and older homes in the area um and I think that lends itself to kind of the um kind of discussion about is this set of character is this within line uh with the development Trends and patterns in the area and I I would say that I do believe that this development You know despite requiring variance relief does um match uh and does not impose any kind of um substantial detriments to to the area um because I think there are a number of homes that have similar development uh with that um I've already discussed at the last meeting um some of the background the master plan um some of the um the purposes of the municipal land use law that are furthered by these variances and uh I just wanted to also include that information information as well as um the intent and purpose of the um the r zones under 66.2 for R3 through R six includes that um there isn't really many purposes included underneath it but it does include that if there's vacant land um presumably also like Redevelopment infill development of a home that' be compatible with the existing development patterns um and so as I just mentioned I I do not think that that's violated here I do believe that the uh you know proposed home does does meet um and is compatible with the existing development um I also believe that um the intent and purpose presumably with standards zoning standards bulk standards for impervious lot coverage and bulk standards are to protect against overdevelopment to protect against um an impact on storm water potentially and uh as you heard from the engineer the storm water um has storm water management has been designed to handle and exceed uh what's on the site previously what was previously built on this site did not have any storm water management control so that inherently is an improvement that I think will help to combat with any of the um variance relief requested for the two conditions on coverage I also believe that um this is an oversized law um and despite exceeding coverage it still meets the setbacks and so it doesn't have an imposition on its neighbors um because it does the principal structure and the accessory structures do meet the setback requirements um and there is landscaping and substantial um existing foliage that will help uh kind of buffer the site as well um with that uh I think I'll put on the the the relief also for specifically for the two um variance conditions um for coverage previously the um the variance relief sought for the um building coverage was was give me a second my text to small was previously uh it was been reduced now to um 15.4% where it was previously 16.6% um that's a change of about 557 square feet difference in the building coverage um the lot coverage variance has changed from 36.6% um to 36.5% now which is a difference of about 55 net square feet um I still believe that the so that's for the for the lock coverage what's the difference the difference is 55 55 square feet and um so the building coverage of 15.4% versus 13% is the max so how much you over in terms of square footage yes what is it 691 that's coverage no it's building that building coverage no no building coverage building coverage is permitted to be I actually don't have the calculation um mayor Mr this all I I just looked at all the zoning table calculations all have terms of perc it's 1,108 over building coverage 118t correct so as previously mentioned I I'll put the proofs on again for the C2 um uh flexible C variants um so this is for um section 66.2 e.2 point a of the R3 Zone where maximum building coverage of 133% is permitted whereas a building coverage of 15.4% is proposed um and for six section 66.2 e. 2B um of the R3 Zone where a maximum law coverage of 35% is permitted whereas 3 um 6.5% is proposed um I do believe the granting these variances will advance the purposes outlined in the municipal land juice law specifically purpose a to encourage Municipal action to guide the appropriate use or development of all lands in the state in a manner which will promote the public health safety morals and general welfare purpose C to provide adequate light air and open space purpose I to promote a desirable visual visual environment through creative development techniques and good Civic design and Arrangement um and I as mentioned before about the residential um zones under 66.2 of which the R3 zone is included I do believe that this will not substantially impair um the the purpose of the Zone I do believe that is compatible with the existing development in the in the neighborhood um as I mentioned before the house is by no means the largest home in the area um and there are larger homes on smaller Lots I do believe that many of the um of the improvements proposed are related entirely uh although they are connected to the the home being designed um to the maximum building coverage I do believe that many of the improvements that are s here tonight are intended to uh create a a a better um design and an overall um better home for the applicant he he's testified here tonight to provide that he wants this to be a home a gener generational home uh where his um his in-laws can live with his family um I think that's a wonderful thing um and uh and he wants to you know remain in in Milburn as long as he can so um for those reasons I believe that the board um can and should grant grant the variances for the really requested thank you so these properties that you cited that have these um kind of of course swim pools how many are 65% over the um required size of a lot um I mean there's homes with on the one there's two tennis courts in the adjacent area one has a tennis court end a pool that's long that's at the corner of Lake um south of the that lot is probably larger oversized so is that done as of right see I I that's what's difficult to discern is if any of the homes have done it as a r they've received variance relief some of them appear to to be over the coverages from from just an aerial perspective in a a simple calculation so I didn't do an opra request to see I remember you you said in your qualifications that you represent various towns correct you the I do how many how many of those towns would be look at an application like this to say you know this is good plan I represent your your neighbor Springfield Township um they Grant especially in the past five years since covid um many applications um were granted relief especially for homeowners who were seeking outdoor improvements that exceeded their law coverage and their building coverage for similar reasons um they sought to either move in in-laws that were elderly or sickly they sought to have outdoor improvements that could have fresh air and you know an outdoor experience for kids because of because of the covid um pandemic um and so you know that's just one example example of your you know very adjacent neighbor a pull awfully existence yard I mean I'd have to look at that I think from a coverage perspective um if probably with with nothing else hypothetically just a PO depends on the star could that L with a with a the um like the outer the coping the coping and the and walkways and everything uh it' have to be redesigned but a pool probably any other questions sure so thank you for your testimony with regard to the 11 you're certainly aware of the C case that says that for C2 case for oversiz lot such as this um the to demonstrate that what's being proposed is a better zoning alternative for the property forget about who's living there what the circumstances are as the chairman pointed out earlier so what just articulate I think for the board with the the better wisest of better zoning alternative for this product I believe that the way that the lot is currently set up with the two frontages along ta presently the way the site was developed before as a home that had a driveway off a I think was was not the most optimal um having access from both Taft and atoms um I think that can create more impact on the neighbors than what is proposed today where there is no access to Taft where it is fenced off where the backyard is treated like a backyard um and doesn't utilize Taft at all um I believe that that is what the applicant is proposing despite requiring variance really if they want to um you know develop the property wholly um and I think it's a beautiful design but I think that it is an improvement from what exists what existed there previously and I think um that it is a better alternative um to plan the site that way so um in terms of demonstrating a better zoning alternative for the property the standard is not what you're being faced with and and why you're necessarily improving the lot and the structures of the lot but why a better zoning alternative for the property as opposed to complying with the zoning standards so can I think that would be helpful to be okay certainly um I think you know I think the chairman alluded to the idea that this could be complied with by eliminating certain features um hypothetically redesigning the backyard as as from what's proposed today um I believe that this um seeking these variances as I mentioned before is a better zoning alternative because it creates uh a backyard environment for the site I I I think it it um is a better is a is a better design um to include um a structure such as the pool house uh further away or away from home and complimentary um in design to it um and I don't think it imposes any additional um impacts as a result of the way it's designed thank you any question any questions for the public regarding this testimony that's a question so yeah so you said that in terms of that Improvement that you use the term backyard environment do you think that the homeowner any homeowner would have a deficiency if they didn't have a pool in their backyard environment if they didn't have a pool in a pool house it's a rhetorical question it's just statement you made I think it's it's based on on the needs of the homeowner right um the applicant has noted that he wants this to be a place where his entire family lives and enjoys it um and I think he's got kids and he wants to enjoy the property to its fullest extent possible and that's the request uh for the relief that he SE is it a need or a want oh it's yeah it's it's a it's a it's an ask it's a want thank can I just ask a question real quick on the original plans um that proposed after a shower was 30t off the Taff drive and in this plan I see that that's been made a little bigger is that that say that again which which portion wa wait hold on hold on so I what are you specifically referring to so we I'm sorry I'm looking at are you talking about the variance plan the Mr uh the Mana design plan okay and what sheet are you refering to sheet one you're on sheet one okay where it has zonation right I'm looking at the okay so it's bu to the left of where it has the zoning T go ahead and um you're showing now proposed pool equipment with the outoor sh is that in an enclosure yes so I believe at the last board meeting we had included the pool equipment that was going to be located back there and we were going to enclose it so it looks like it was part of it but it's not part of the outdoor shower it's just an enclosure for the equipment okay so that has been added to the plans and I apologize I didn't state that that changed before and it's actually two feet closer than it was uh original plan original plan showed at 30 feet off the property line 28 correct and I believe on the last exhibit that we had it was shown us 28.3 we had on exhibit we just formalized it as part of this submission uh got any questions for this no further questions I to okay um then in that case uh any other questions from I'll open up to comment uh from the audience anyone the AI any comment regarding address testimony about to give tonight's presentation truth the truth I do your name and address the record your name uh my name is Lawrence crev it's l a w r n c my last name is k r o v l e v address sorry k r o k r o v l e v v like Victor l e v like Victor I live at 44 Lake Road uh property adjacent U to the property we're discussing um should I begin or sure um well I was actually gonna so I've known just it's interesting I've known Mr ganella Michael since we were six years old we actually went to Hillside Elementary School in Livingston theity together um it's strange to call him Mr ganella because his we used to call him his dad that he took us to Pizza HUD we had hadn't spoken in 20 years and then he bought the property behind and so it was just really interesting because you know we reconnected I was going to talk about a bunch of different things but if it's okay I actually wanted to maybe talk about a couple of the questions that you just had so when you ask you know why this wasn't planned you know I'm not a lawyer and I don't represent them but I can tell you about conversations we had when I first found out that he was doing this property it was like three years ago it's been a very slow process and I was really excited to reconnect with Michael I was like let's spend a lot of time together in the summer I'm not there I was really surprised when he saw that but he wasn't there this is three years now going on he had spent no time between I don't know roughly June and September never able to meet up gave us all these uh trips he was taking and spending time with his family so Michael's a conservative person just based on his profession and his personality he didn't want to build things that he didn't need so I can't speak to what the exact process was when they were planning it but I can testify if that's the right word that what he's telling you is actually consistent with what I experienced he didn't really plan on spending time at this property in the summertime and he didn't want to build property or U structures you know and invest in structures that wouldn't be necessary or useful when you talk about um the property itself so I've lived there when the old property was there as well so the old property was owned by a family um they were really nice they had lived there for a really long time I think Amy and Ira cotel many of you know them they hadn't really invested in the property for a long time so Michael came and it was obvious that he was going to um you know knock it down and build up whatever he wanted so when he didn't build a pool on a on a very large property that adjacent to several I thought it was a little strange as well like you said me I don't remember exactly your words but you know it would be consistent with a property like this to have a pool as a property owner adjacent to him I welcome these these additions and and and features I think the property have them so when we talk about what happens if he sells it tomorrow well I'd actually be concerned about his ability to sell it if he doesn't have some of these features now that's his financial business not mine but I do worry about how the property will be evaluated by potential buyers I do worry about how the area around us may not be the most desirable possible area I I can't speak to his mistakes or mis plannings but I do think though that the area that he's talking about about we many of us have pools I have a pool his other neighbors have pools you know the people down the block from me have their tennis court I hear them playing tennis all the time I welcome some of these things even if they um require variances and lastly I would just say that um the the property itself what Michael's doing to the property is a big Improvement to what there was there before the the property before was neglected for 50 years so so the Improvement that he has with the house and these structures really create value for the community in terms of what we see visually when we look out across for it I hope he gets his variance because I think he deserves it thank you it's a downer uh any further comment from the audience hey from the testimony about to give in tonight's hearing truth whole truth the truth yes your name address of the record spelling your name Aaron Prince a a r o m uh p r i n c 50 Lake Road so we're um the gala's neighbor new neighbors um right behind them and um he shared the plans with us they've been great neighbors so far and I've be you know supportive of his plans I have no issues with them um that's all I really have to add thank you next you s from testimony abouton truth stre nothing but the truth yes your name and I just Karen Horwitz k a r n h o r o w TZ and I'm at 41 Adams Avenue thank you um good evening my name is Karen harowitz I've lived at 41 Adams Avenue since 2006 and so I'm directly next to um Michael and his um family at 35 um over the last 18 years we have seen many houses in our neighborhood turn over um any worries that we might have had about our new neighbors and the ensuing um construction quickly disappeared after we met the gelas Michael and Tanya um truly represent what I think most people would hope for in a neighbor they quickly joined as Michael had mentioned kind of our neighborhood group communication he shared the plans with us kind of welcomed any um like comments feedback throughout the process um and we have found them to be very friendly committed to enhancing our neighborhood and making it their long-term home um throughout this long building process they've been both accommodating and forthcoming with their plans um I'm happy to see the ganella family enjoy our neighborhood and their house both the inside of their house and the outside of their house and I speak on behalf of myself and my husband Jeff and we're comfortable with their overall house the pool house Portico pool and fence plans um they have been very sensitive to the water table issue in our neighborhood and I'm confident that their Landscaping drainage f um plans and everything are only going to improve our neighborhood um and I do believe even from being an adjacent neighbor that the the building structure even though it's it's a large structure is an improvement over what was there before and even some of the setbacks it's further setback than the existing structure that was like right along our fence line um previously so I'm very supportive of the plan and kind of anxious to have it move along as well thank you [Music] from testimony you're about to give tonight to the truth hold Truth for the truth yes your name and address your name David Lane L NE 15 ta Drive Short Hills we're the neighbor directly across the street from the rear yard so thank you to the board for uh hearing the concerns of the neighbors last time and considering um with respect to the fense and the mitigations we really appreciate that Mr ganella has engaged in discussions with the neighbors us um regarding the fence placement and mitigation issues that we were seeking through discussions uh and some visits we agreed on how to address some of those concerns uh which would include ongoing consultation as they move forward with completing the project we're all looking forward to the project completing it has been a long time we think they're going to make great neighbors and regarding the fence we are okay with its placement and the Landscaping thank you anything else you s from testimon tonight heing be Truth Truth by the truth I do your name and address for the record Matthew guest 21 T drive just your last name uh g s and um I spoke at the last meeting uh as you may recall um I I want to Echo what Dave said particularly around the fence um uh you know I think the one clarification I and Michael and I spoke yesterday is there are some trees planted around around along the curb currently I would just like for those trees to be retained in any event and then the Shrubbery behind those between the fence and and the existing trees just don't want to see you know 15 big trees cut down I don't think that was ever intended um the other thing I would note is that and I don't know if this is relevant for the considerations but one thing that is a dramatic improvement over the current state of the property um and and maybe it's an improvement occasioned by the changes to the plan is the the addition of the dry Wells um and the the sounds like basically a doubling of the drywalls that were included because that that's an oddly shaped lot as you can all see from the plan and that little uh whatever it is like a thumb or whatever that sticks out and and joins my property along the cesac um is uh is like a wetland right now uh with when when there's any rain and and that'll be um I think the addition of those dry wells will be a very welcome change um certainly it'll be very important for your enjoyment of your own property but I am supportive of uh of the variances uh in large part due to uh Michael's accessive accessibility and willingness to disc with this and really be open throughout the process thank you any further comment I close the public portion of meeting I'll go first so I appreciate the modifications you've made to defense I think you really listened to our concerns and modified it to in my opinion acceptable degree um I I hearing the neighbors are supportive which means a lot to me personally but I have to tell you I'm still worried that with this a very large for the zone property um and even with your um modest um improvements to come down it's still over and I'm wondering if there's a way to get this in compliance and consideration just that it really should be compliant thanks to to what everyone else say thank you anyone else I'll go next I agree with uh Regina um actually very I think the neighbor Neighbors would be happy as well that the fence is now the 4 foot lookth through fence versus the six foot solid that was that jump off the page of name um but to to Echo what Regina was saying as well it's I it was very difficult to even find where you were reducing uh the square footage the coverage there if there's something that you mentioned it during your testimony you might consider like a just doing a some kind of a re modification of this so that would be my thoughts thank you u i I would uh Echo exactly what has been said so far um I really struggle with this application from the C1 and C2 perspective clearly there's no hardship I we have a lot that's that's 177,000 square feet over the lot minimum and yet we're we're still exceeding the uh coverage and lot coverage and building coverage by excessive amount uh I don't think that's good plan I don't think that's that's uh to the benefit of the zoning plan and master plan uh and I would not be supportive of those two variances however the fence I think has been well thought out and um because of the C1 nature of of that I would be um uh I would be accepting of that that request but as for the B coverage and building coverage I would not support I agree with those comments and it just feels still feels like a little too much I think that changes with respect to defense are great um I I just think the the other changes are not sufficient and I just don't think I can support them so councelor I'll throw it back to you what are your thoughts do you want to move forward to the vote uh let's not uh no we'd like to have another opportunity toise sounds good um I blet sorry July July 1 ises that work let's put down well I mean you can obviously change that but that's that's next available all right with that we'll be moving on wait wait [Music] so all interested parties this application has been carried by the board to the July 1st 24 meeting of the board 7:00 uh in this room no further notice will be provided by the applicant this is your notice so the next hearing on this will be July 1st 2024 7 o' no notes thank you uh next up we have calendar 3978 24 monair location 378 Avenue how are you uh I'm great good evening everyone my name is John wical I'm here tonight on behalf of montcla indoor golf LLC I've got very large shoes to fill because I am pinch hitting tonight uh for Mr skoli uh he's been applicant's attorney on this uh he took his wife to Paris I think they flew out yesterday they're probably in bed now but I'm sure they were looking at the Eiffel Tower probably not that long ago so uh it's my my pleasure to be here tonight uh just uh briefly uh my client has ENT entered into a lease to occupy the entire first floor of the retail commercial space of the building uh which is diagonally across if you look out that window at 378 Milburn Avenue uh the property is identified is block 801 lot 6.01 it's located in the Township's B4 Central Business uh Zone District uh this is a property uh owned by SX 281 LLC they received site plan approvals uh in 2022 uh for the construction of that building uh which consists of a three-story mixed use building uh ground floor retail commercial space office space on the second floor and then three apart residential apartments up on the third floor uh my client is here tonight seeking variance approvals to permit the use in occupancy of that entire first floor space it's actually about 2598 Square ft we're gonna have Mr kellerer uh clarify that because there are a couple different numbers in the uh in the application forms uh but we're looking to occupy it for the purpose of operating an indoor golf training facility we're proposing uh essentially three simulator Bays with the potential for a a fourth Bay as well our improvements are limited to the interior lease hold space itself so we're not expanding the building we're not modifying the building uh externally uh or like uh if approved this will be our client's uh second uh business location here in Essex County uh as you are going to see and hear more this evening uh this is a a very low intensity use of the property itself it is a club membership oriented use uh it is very strictly operated and regulated by ownership uh the parking that was previously approve for the use is more than ample for uh for my client's needs uh and we do believe in a use that's complimentary to the downtown district and one that's going to support other businesses in the area the reason we're here before you tonight uh our uses not specifically permitted in the B4 Zone District your B4 Zone District allows a whole variety of uses retail Retail Services instructional uses in studios or instructional schools and Studios and a VAR various other uses this is really an experiential use we just really not fit any one of those criteria probably if I were looking at it the first time I'd say it's akin to a retail service or it's akin to instructional uses in studios and I've been before your planning board presenting those types of uses we do have golf instructor that's available for members available for members of the public uh that want to come to this facility uh but they're not there it's it's not they're not there all day every day and you'll hear a little bit more about it we think it is a great use for for this property uh I have two witnesses tonight uh Jimmy wanovich uh he is the the owner he's the operator I'm going to call him up to speak about the use how this uh facility would operate at this location and then we have Rich Keller who you all know he's civil engineer he's a planner he's really here tonight in capacity as a planning and and his capacity as a planner uh and Mr Keller uh also served as the engineer and planner when this project was approved before the planning board in 2022 so he's uh quite familiar with the site so unless anybody has any questions of me I'd like to call uh Mr wanovich to testify and be sworn in first instance from testimony about tonight the truth truth the truth I do your name for the record spelling your name James vukanovich V likein Victor UK a n oov i thank you and Mr vukanovich why don't you please just tell the board a little bit about yourself and I I'll just turn it over to you toh describe what it is we're doing here yeah uh absolutely uh thank you um all of you for your time and consideration the feedback that um I'm sure you'll give me um by just wave of introduction I'm an avid golfer I moved to chadam um out of the city with my wife and uh um when I wanted to open a second location I started working on Milbourne because I think it's like the perfect place for this my introduction to Milbourne um was I wanted to go on a date night with my wife um and we didn't have a reservation so we our neighbors told us well you should check out the standard um you know because you didn't need a reservation and then we found moonshine and then next you know now we do like family dates there all the time so that was kind of my introduction to Milburn and I really started to kind of like it to be honest with you wish that I lived in Milbourne instead of chadam um but uh in the in the meantime I opened a loc I started looking here I started working um with the special improvement district um they have kind of helped attract my business and kind of um helped me figure out what the standards of the of the community are they've been really helpful in that process I opened Montclair indoor golf club um I still kept working on Milbourne because this is like just a perfect location for it um the one thing that I'd want to impress upon all all of you um is that when folks usually think about indoor golf your first kind of experience of it is like five iron in the city or The Clubhouse or maybe Top Golf outside those are kind of on the spectrum of very event focused very like party atmosphere a lot of people um food and beverage um for on the indoor golf space I'm on the complete opposite side of the spectrum so five iron and events are over here corporate events are over here I'm over here where it's a golfers um where you have five iron you have four five 10 20 people in a party in mine it averages 1.25 people per tea time um so most the folks are individuals trying to get better at the game of golf I designed the space to be a real facility to get better at golf as opposed to an event space um what I'm looking to bring is a three Bay facility to Milburn um I can fit four uh so if the if if the community doesn't demand more capacity I'm GNA probably add some you know kind of high-tech like workout things just for golfers but my guess is that the community can support the fourth Bay and so that would be coming within you know 12 months of opening um I think that uh or I know that our business is a destination retail location so people come specifically to golf for us they make a tea time well in advance they're excited about it they very rarely miss a tea time and those people usually frequent local food um and beverage places whether it's for lunch or dinner or whatever else most folks I've seen in Montclair often you know are adding business to to places that you know they wouldn't otherwise be there if they weren't there golfing um so I do think it would be a positive addition to um Milbourne which I already mentioned that I I really like and frequent a lot myself um um as far as uh just to go over some quick bullet points about the business and please like stop me if you have questions or something doesn't make sense I don't mind answering them live um we are open to the public uh most people choose to be members about 98 plus percent of our golf balls are hit by members uh members can gain access via their smartphones uh when and only when they have a tea time so if I have three Bays that means three members can access the facility at once when I have four Bays four members can access the facility at once so it's never a freefor all 100 people have access to this place um most rounds of golf take place between 7:00 a.m. and 900 PM with an average number of golfers I already touched on it less than one and a quarter people per tea time in other words we won't be using um very many parking spaces uh we serve Avid golfers as I mentioned um as opposed to event or social goers uh I expect we'll need an like an expected value of kind of five spaces um that's that one and a quarter times four so that's kind of the maximum once we have four Bays with an absolute Max of kind of 10 to 12 at those like five to 10 minute turnover when there's like and that's assuming everybody's tea time stops and ends at the same time which never happens um because te times can range from one hour to three hours sometimes even more but over 99% are between one and three hours um let's see uh technically members can book and this is more so important for like marketing and getting folks kind of excited about what I'm doing um technically members can book Tea Times 24 hours a day in my other location um but like I said it's kind of like catches your attention if you say like T off 247 right for the most part it's between all like for 99% of it it's between 5:30 a.m. sometimes people replac like in early morning workout as they're on their way to the train or something like that and it usually ends at about 11:30 p.m. if it goes that late it's usually me to be honest with you or somebody else trying to like fix what was broken earlier in the day um like again a kind of individual two guys like I said it average is 1.25 it's not like 10 people um there I don't even allow 10 people on One te time the max is four I'm actually thinking for this location one of the Bays being three um or all of them being three in the performance Bay being two um that's only because my experience has been that like people actually have more fun with two and three people when it's four it's just a lot if you're actually serious about golfing as opposed to hanging out um sound is of little concern given the insulation of the bay that I install um my experience is next to both other retail locations and my location in Montclair we have um nebor very expensive apartments above us we haven't had a single complaint um I've even gone over to the retail unit next door and put my put my ear on the wall just out of curiosity and I can never hear uh can never hear anything uh like I said tea times about one to three hours most are around 90 minutes that gives you enough time to warm up play around a golf hit a few balls to fix what wasn't working um what's your proposed hours actually what's that what are your proposed operation I so that the door is actually open that somebody can walk in off the street it's usually only like 10 a.m. to 4 pm it's when I'm there um for members they they can technically book T times 24 hours a day which I'm hoping that you're open to it's worked um in both my locations that I've opened previously I currently operate montcl which to be honest with you I was more concerned about Montclair than I am Milburn um in terms of security and that's stuff um but the security is very good I haven't had any issues in in mon can you can you actually speak to that if you wouldn't mind just from so just John when you go over that yeah for your counsel I'm just explain how it works that you your phone the phone allows you to open the door right and the lights come on or something yeah um so what happens when what Mr Simon just said when you I'll almost walk you through the use case for the for the golfer if that's okay it might bring even more understanding so you'll like book a tea time you'll say I want to go at 11: p.m. um you'll book a tea time you'll get an automated email uh with a link um and you're a member so we know you I have your phone number all that sort of stuff so that I can do that uh when you show up you'll the easiest you can do it through my website but you can also the easiest way that most people do is they pull up their email because they've gotten an email within the last like 30 minutes as a reminder to make easy for them to find the link you click on that link it actually takes you to the platform that controls the security on the door um as long as you're within 10 feet it's probably five is more normal but as long as you're within 10 feet the door will will recognize that you press the link and that you have access um and it's tied to the schedule so like if you book it at 11 and you show up at 5 the door tells you like sorry you don't have a tea time um what's the general time frame so if you book at at 11: correct me if I'm wrong how how early can you access the build 10:45 yeah I I tell people 10 minutes but I usually have it set to 12 or 15 minutes before and after um that way they can kind of get in and Putt and kind of get ready and then after so that if they forget their keys or something like that um if it's outside of that time like you forget your driver or something like that you would have to you'd have to call me um in order to let you in uh there isn't so like I said that's when I said that at any given time there's only four people that could book 11: pm and would have access to the space so like open 24 I don't actually consider actually like the business is really open um because somebody can't walk in off the street or you can't like Joe Schmo that I've never met can't like book a tea time and like get in there um they're all always kind of carded members who have already been on boarded and kind of get the program if you will and I you know I don't know let me think the right way to say it I I generally give people the vibe that like we have kind of a policy of like you know be a decent person be a decent human I don't mind giving people the boot if there's any kind of issues or concerns or that sort of thing access to see what's going on in the facility access you understand who's there normally yeah 100% of the time and I usually check it while I'm not there I can check it for my phone I could see Montclair right now um so you know yeah if I see a tea time for instance that's like abnormal I I I watch I look I see what's going on um knock on wood we haven't had any issues like I said usually when somebody's going late it's because they have a weekend golf trip planned and they're they found out that like the actual course they're playing is on trackman and so they're like I'm gonna play the course as many times as I can um to the we hours of the morning want you take two minutes and explain what you just said in terms of track man and that you're actually having courses as opposed to just hitting to a 50 100 150 200 foot yeah absolutely so um we are like an indoor driving range if you will but the I am very big on using like the best technology and the best products possibly available um so trackman is the leader in the space um if are any of you golfers by chance by raise a hand few okay ra hands so oh okay sorry so sometimes you see the pictures or or the the stats on like how many Pros have a track man out on the range with them as they're warming up the number is always above 70% a lot of times it's above 80% at any PGA Tour event these guys have track mans um the really cool thing that I I think for being in the space is that all those players paid themselves over $20,000 for that unit trackman doesn't give any pros a trackman even Tiger Woods himself bought a trackman um so for me that's like a lot more powerful than like a business that you know pays Bryson do Shambo a couple million dollars to like rep a product you know what I mean um these guys are using it because they're competing and every ounce of quality matters so trackman is kind of known as is the best in the space when you use a trackman that you can do everything from like you said you can sit on a range and bang balls at different distances you have driving ranges that are like kind of you're hitting to Greens and bunkers and you can see trees and you can change the wind um there's also the performance Studio which was just released and we were beta testers um there's not that many scratch golfers who operate these things so trackman usually like lets me get a free look on stuff or wonders what I'm thinking um as a as an owner who who is also okayish at golf um and the performance center thing is really cool because they designed it with tour Pros so you can like see everywhere between 30 and 240 yards how many strokes you're gaining or losing to tour Pros um you can even hit specific shots to like I'm like Jason day said hey I'm like struggling at back right pin locations from like 150 plus and that was kind of that's at least the story that trackman gies they you can play courses right then and lastly aside from practicing you can also play um everything from Pebble Beach um to St Andrews uh to fictional courses um to you know and a lot of times these courses actually pay money to be on there that's kind of how powerful trackman is within the space I always have all the courses sometimes you have to pay a little extra for like the pebble be Beach pack or whatever but we always have um we always have that stuff um as far as far as like other choices that I make that ensures that the Milburn residents will get like the best possible experience is that there's certain things you can do with like the mats that save money or cost money most places have what I call inserts um so you do that so that when the mat kind of wears out you only have to insert a small little square the problem is that then when you're golfing you have like alignment sticks you have these horizontal lines then when you go outside alignments out of your process so it's a problem so I like replace the whole mat um I always have Titus prov1 RCT balls uh if you for the golfers you know Prov ons are kind of the most expensive ones the RCT balls are another 50% 40 some odd percent so so those are things you provide you provide the balls talk about land stuff yeah absolutely right so all right this is all good but but let's get back to you trackman then I got excited sorry about that so um in terms of land use I think it's would be important to the board to go over how your membership briefly how your membership Works in terms of access to the space so if I'm driving by at one o'clock in the morning and I pass your sign and I say cool I got my clubs in the car I'm gonna go on this app and become a member and walk right in at what o'clock in the morning and turn the lights on so is that possible and I'm giving use some context to explain the access to the space yeah absolutely it's it's not really possible um if you book as a member I have a lot of automated emails are like you have to be onboarded this and that I get an email straight away and I've had a couple people who try to skirt it nobody's ever been able to do it um but in general no uh you you as when you become a member you get an automated email let's talk about so when you're sign go on the website you click join the club you pay um that how much uh we charge 135 for a casual membership and 250 for a full membership what a casual membership casual membership is two hours a month right um anytime they roll over full membership is unlimited weekdays two hours for the weekends those weekend hours roll over do they can they bring guests or that kind of thing yeah you can bring guests I don't ever try to nickel and dime people on yes that sort of thing you can bring the same guests as much as you want um mon Clair it's up to three guests per tea time I'm considering reducing it to to two guests in Milburn but Max let's let's say worst case as far as use use goes it's 20 a member cannot be all members are 21 and over any consumption premises no non-alcoholic beverages food and beverage can be consumed but not alcoholic beverag is not use what's that how do you know that I guess the same way first off part of the membership correct no alcohol permitted Pro to your membership rules correct and then otherwise just policing through you know through your own absolutely I mean it's it's comparable to a golf course in all cander a golf course says you can't bring a beer if somebody brings a beer like is it possible absolutely but like I can only do what I can do same as a club or anybody else so not like to kill you with hypotheticals and all that like let's say um someone's a member and their kid uses it okay how do you curtail that or is that something that's okay like as long as as long as they their kid can be a guest so as long as they're there they're they're present they have to be there and to be honest with you that's probably the biggest sticking point in the community that UPS has upset like a few people is they're like oh I have a membership at Canoe Brook like why can't my kid be there and I'm kind like look man I don't need 15 and 16 and 17 year old kids having unfettered access so like I just enforce it very strictly upsets some parents but some parents don't want I just want there's never a person at like it's it's just everyone accesses on their own they go in it's they they you know there's never it's never manned I'm usually there from like call it 9 in the morning to 4 in the afternoon is um but you have two locations I have two locations yeah so Montclair now is is relatively full so my intent is that I'm going to be spending most of my time at Milbourne um but call it at least three probably more like forish days in Milbourne what if something happens like someone gets hurt accidentally in what context don't know what do how does that work uh if somebody gets so obviously I have attorneys have like right waivers and that sort of thing um that's unhealthy uh if if somebody got hit with a golf club I guess it would be no different than somebody getting hit with a golf club out at a golf I question somebody is alone you know obviously they're with a guest they'll call 911 yeah but as far as hitting with a golf club it sounds like that's the obvious thing the obvious the the more real use case is bounceback with golf balls um so no seriously that's probably that okay um it's not virtual oh my God so sorry like yes if not virtual just yes just so if you try for the board's purposes just walk through what are they hitting into exactly you're hitting into uh a screen so some simulators like a uh the the budget model is just going to be like a screen right and so is there bounce back how much bounce back it has to be adjusted kind of constantly as the screen stretch um all of my call it stuff is built by trackman and installed by trackman so you'd be surprised how many little features there are all all around to keep it buttoned up and make sure that the bounceback doesn't so that there aren't any concerns so I have those concerns too um and that's one of the reasons why I have trackman build it out so that they're to mitigate all those concerns and during the onboarding process we have rules around like how close somebody can stand like that sort of thing and we make it very clear with how where the grasses and whatnot um we haven't had any injuries and just walk through somebody just explain for the boards because there's some board members that don't know what this is you're on a mat swing club so there will be a uh let's say this wall right here you have a 15 foot wide spot yeah yeah um okay this is so this is a trackman whoa this photo I believe was submitted as part of the application material so we don't need a this is exact right Rich exhib because you put an exhibit a why don't we just put it make an exhibit a all right A1 uh so these are trackman bays these are 15ot bays at the time these were the biggest Bays available um in May track band got some bigger ones so Milbourne will have the biggest track band Bays available but effectively this spot is where a golfer stands and he hits a ball into the screen um there's a this is a trackman IO it sits up top the other version is the trackman 4 which is what you see at the PJ tour it's indoor outdoor I have that on the other side um those are what's reading what's happening on that mat and then you kind of see it in real time on the golf course and the ball hits screen correct it gives you a reading so there's padding all you can't see because it's all black but there's padding all up in here there's two layers of screens there's a like kind of this chain that's wrapped in plastic on the bottom to like help you with like if you skull a shot so because if it's not built out properly you top it it spins up it can come back and so like what I've learned in doing a couple of these is that that stuff matters a lot um and so that's why I kind of spare no expense on that like call it injury related stuff when it comes to the ball hits the screen and the screens are designed there's a couple layers there so the screens are designed to basically it dead it and it kind of drops down it like and then it'll drop down like a little bit in front of you you take your Club you like bounce it back and then you go again is this predicted here I me each B it's completely yes and the ones in Milburn the 17 foot ones come out even further these are 15 feet wide and they come out like about 13 feet the larger version that came out in May they're 17 feet wide and they come out like 16 feet so it really feels like kind of a private kind of room and how high it goes up uh 10 and a halfish feet um and it so any ball you can't it's not possible to hit a ball out of here like for a landlord this is like a a dream scenario they're going to give me a vanilla box and if I ever leave they get a vanilla box it looks like it was never touched because balls the balls don't come out of this thing it's very buttoned up like for instance I provide I put three balls in there maybe one gets tucked around a corner but like it's so buttoned up there's no concerned with losing balls like a lot of indoor places it's not quite as buttoned up as these Bays so you have to provide like 10 balls in hopes that like you don't lose them or whatever else so so just to carry forward what you just said there is a mat from where you hit the ball correct there's a screen in front corre it goes and just pops out correct so so as a player what does it show I mean does on the screen do you see your shot how far it's going absolutely yeah so like you'll you'll hit the ball you'll if you're playing you you see a golf hole just like you would Outdoors right and the bigger the screen the more I guess realistic it is you're aiming just like you would outside so there could be a tree down the left side of the Fairway I'm like oh I want to start it at that tree you can aim and everything else so you hit the golf ball um especially with the io which is a ceiling unit it's near real time so as soon as you look up you're seeing the golf ball fly towards that tree you can change settings as far as like do I want to it to be like I'm outside where I just see the ball from this one vantage point or do I want the camera to follow it like it's a video game that sort of stuff and then it kind of does its thing it flies through the air it shows you the data on your shot it lands on the ground then you get the next shot and that screen is right in front where you're hitting so you're seeing it right live in terms of how it's moving correct okay so Monclair yes where's the location it's on Bloomfield Avenue 369 Bloomfield Avenue so it's right across there's like it's kind of redeveloped there's like a new apartment building across the street there's a near forward um doesn't matter okay question how many bays there two one two okay and um how many parking spaces you have uh we have actually we only have two but they let me use four as like a for intermediate time but we only have two one per Bay okay yeah um have you had any oh sorry that excludes people who work there so me and the pro we have ours too so four indoors two for the members sorry about that how long you been open uh since we open the doors November 6 I November 3rd sorry of 2024 that's correct okay so you 23 so 15 months um if you had any parking issues uh no but I mean people are kind of in Montclair the parking is tougher so people guess you're not aware of any parking issues associated with your business correct correct that's correct can I get some clarification you said how many how many how many total Bays total bays in in Milbourne in Milbourne with are you proposed uh three right out of the gate I have room for a fourth and you said each person could potentially bring up to three guests um so the performance Bay is going to be up to two it's kind of designed for like a coach in one person okay so up to two so that's three people in one Bay right potentially correct up to three in one day so they're and what I said was I'm considering like reducing it but like yeah first so three would be 12 people okay so 12 people then how many employees at any given time is it's only ever me or an instructor you said you said Kristoff as an instructor but in the performance Bay he would be counted in that number so just trying to like wrap my head around the math how many people could potentially maximally be on site at once yeah absolute Max could be like 13ish people um we have our our our space allows for 15 people so 15 15 yeah thank you okay so 15 and you parking we don't are we are you applying for we do not have a parking variance this was accounted for as retail space we comply we'll have Mr Keller speak to it as well thank you in terms of the timing of when people come did I hear you say people are there mostly in the day yeah it's mostly mostly from 7 a.m. to kind of about 900 p.m. I have a couple regulars who have replaced their gym in the morning like 5 5:30 um like I would think you'd get people after work that's a busy time too um but work from home has made it so that like a lot of people are coming maybe more than you'd expect during the day especially in the winter in the winter we were pretty pretty full um yeah and oh I just wanted to clarify one thing montclair's been in business yes less than a year um but I also had another location that I've that since divested so I have done more of this than maybe one location suggests I just want to mention that what's a full membership what what's the most number of members you would consider here um so I would probably say that it's at three Bays it probably maxes out at like 150 total members um it's probably full members means kind of like 70 80% of that to be honest with you though might be it might surprise me to the low side Montclair people golfed more than I thought so like I cap membership because I didn't want people to feel like they had to book it too far in advance which is sometimes what people's experience has been in like five iron in the city so what what's the max in Montclair in Montclair I kept it it was like one 120ish total and that left like high 90s for full members So High full the balance where the correct casual casual correct and members can you know upgrade and downgrade so it's not yeah they find their usage needs more they can go full or CRA down or like in the summer they're like I want to be a casual and then they upgrade to full or whatever so like it can move around with the seasons and that sort of thing are there any other added costs other than the membership itself uh no unless people want to purchase more hours I'm kind of sensitive to like Ticky Tac kind of stuff like that so like yeah and you mentioned a pro um is that something that you sign up for separately if you want to do a performance lesson or yeah that's correct we have Kristoff Ells who was uh formerly at Montclair Golf Club um I thought when we first met I really liked him I thought like he would end up doing kind of both but he's actually decided that kind of he's like full bore on this so he's like only with me now um and so he he'll teach also at Milbourne um we're working on being able to offer our members like some outdoor work as well um just to kind of further the product offering because at the end of the day we're trying to get people better at outdoor golf just via practicing indoors so let's jump back to this 24 hour thing okay um so I mean obviously you can chart probably very easily your tea times and the usage yes so I mean being open at 2 o'clock in the morning is really a a customer that is aiming to pleas I mean what what's where where does where do you think it's it's realistic in terms of usage oh yeah so I have a just just provide just walk just walk through it no just explain okay yes just explain what happens in in the in the late hours yeah so I mean there's like at two 2 am 1: am 2 am 3 and there's no usage really I mean Nega very little usage like there's there's nothing where's the where's the you know not anomaly usage but like where is your normally Report with your usage yeah seven to seven and it's really like seven to nine sometimes in the winter people go to like 11 11:30 but not much later than that the half of half of it is probably me to be honest right it's 12 12:30 sure but like I said it's more often than not like I feel like if I were in your shoes the concern would be people like getting rowdy or events or that sort of thing like it's what I call Grinders it's people like like are frustrated by how they played earlier in the day self-included um if I could just ask you few questions about security because of the hours which I think is unique for us we're sort of drilling down on that um there's no security person that stays there at night there is no security person that's there at night okay and you have cameras throughout the facility cameras throughout the facility and are there emergency alarms that somebody could activate if something happens there's be like a an AED on site AE automa external oh defat oh if that's to if it's required by code then yes but I don't think it's required by I don't mind adding it it's not that's I Would by yourself by right well that is a good point if somebody goes down find him in the morning at least when somebody R so actually what does happen if somebody goes down and out the middle like if somebody just has a heart attack whether they're by themselves yeah I guess the same thing that happens at their house if they live by sorry I don't mean to be I don't but the liability is on you it's an athletic type facility so it can be anticipated people's heart are you having any Refreshments like whether vending machine or otherwise I have water um I have water water jug I don't sell any I don't sell like anything candy bars prot bars I thought about like vending machines that sort of thing like I I just haven't done it I just am not that long on the idea do you have um lighting like exterior lighting and do you have a sign or anything the outside of the building the sign is like as per what's already been kind of contemplated okay what about like lighting for this like if it's going to be I guess my question is if it's going to be 24-hour access is there going to be like a sign that's lit up outside 24 hours a day or no it would just be like kind of normal they're gonna access the front door correct correct you're not looking for ass signing matters at all no not looking for ass comp our sign is GNA just comply with with a box that was approved for yeah just uh for the front the buildy itself the windows you have Windows that open onto this are they going to be blocked out are they open yeah I've been I I was I was sensitive to honestly Architects told me like oh you should block the Windows like that's the most efficient use of space and I was like the city is goingon to hate that and I don't really like it either so like I've done everything I can not to block the windows um we have the layout right here so you can kind of see these are all windows right here this is the plan has submitted correct Mr K yeah it's one of your submission so these are the windows what like for instance Architects would tell you to do to get the most out of space is just to like stack them like this like a driving range but it blocks all the windows so what I've done is I only blocked like the smallest amount of window right here this is actually open so you can see the screen I noticed that in Montclair people like really liked it it actually brought people like they come in the glass and kind of see it um and this is all all open here so people like walk in here they're going to be golfing here um this is a putting green for like people waiting this is another Bay here way far away from the window and then this Bay people are golfing this way it's only blocking like just the the second door that I'm not using so if you're walking by at 11 o'clock at night and there's you know two bays being utilized people are going to be able to see those golfers people can see the golfers here correct so each B is not like closed enclosed by itself right the one side is open so there's always one side open the one the side that the arrow is not facing is open one side one side one side at Mont how far is this from any residential property and what what sort of experience have you heard from Neighbors just general uh neighbors like folks living there or there's residences right above me or it might be technically a little bit back but it's like the same building complex there hasn't been any like complaint in terms of noise or anything like that um the business next to me I hear them more than they he um I yeah there hasn't been any type of negative feedback most of the feedback is that all the members are like they all live like three minutes away and that's why they like the membership like they wouldn't do they wouldn't purchase a membership if it wasn't very close to their home um so that's like the location related feedback I guess I've gotten from the market that they just like it's really close to their house because I kind of when when somebody joins I spend like 15 to 45 minutes with them teaching them how to use a trackman and how to get the most out of it so that they feel like it's their own personal like space or Studio like if they put one of these in that their house like a lot of tour Pros have so from what I remember I was on the planning board at the time that this was done I think it's you have businesses on the second floor and then residents on the third correct okay yeah office space on the second three apartments on the third okay so they're obviously pretty well insulated on the third floor from any potential noise they're not going to hear the offic aren't going to hear anything either right and are there extra sets of clubs available somebody happen have clubs I I usually don't do that because again it's kind of I'm trying to like go for kind of avid golfers is like the spot that I'm going for technically I do have some clubs and my pro has some clubs that sometimes people use but in general folks bring their own golf clubs if they want to demo another club could you could they do that do you provide that service um we don't provide I don't sell clubs and I don't do fittings um I've been asked by Fitters to use this space I just am not super interested to be honest with you any other questions any have testimony on your side or uh well we'll yeah we'll get to the next witness but we don't I don't think we have anything further okay thank you for your time thank you at the end of Mr Keller's testimony we'll open up to the audience there any questions regarding any testimony heard this evening from testimony truth all truth the truth yes I do name Richard Keller k l l r I'm a licensed professional uh engineer and uh planner in the state of New Jersey licensed uh built for over 40 years now I held a Bachelor of Science and civil engineering with a concentration of water resources and environmental engineering and that is from R University I also hold a master of um architecture with a concentration of urban planning and design and that is from the New Jersey Institute of Technology where I was also an aent Professor for approximately 11 years I have appeared before this board approximately 100 10 boards now throughout the state of New Jersey I have offered planning services to the burrow of uh Caldwell for the board of adjustment and uh my license my brand new license arrived three days ago so my license is in good effect thank you qualifications are accept please proceed thank you chairman Mr Kell you're familiar with the application you're familiar with the site I said in my opening comments you actually handled the original site plan approvals for this building that's correct is that correct y I'm just going to turn it over to you to uh to go through the application the nature of the variance Rel for seeking and whatever else you want and Mr C keep in mind that obviously we've heard extensive testimony from the operator in terms fact and I think we all know where it is um it's uh obviously um the building that's under construction and near in completion was approved in 2022 with a first floor retail of $25.98 this applicant is seeking to take the full uh retail space um the zoning officers deemed the golf simulation facility um would class ify as a uh an indoor commercial recreation use as defined by our ordinance uh this use is not strictly U permitted in the B4 Central business district so we need a D1 use variants uh however it is closely analogous to an instructural school and Studio use which is a permitted use in the district I would point out there is no parking um uh variance required because the space was approved uh at one per 200 um and uh that's the same um parking requirement for the uh the use that's been deemed indoor commercial recreation so there is what's the number of parking spaces that are allocated for the space under the approval under the approval um well the approval none of the space there are no well the requirement for this space itself was 13 spaces um per one per 200 um none of the spaces there are 10 spaces behind the building none of them are allocated um for the for this use all of the uh employees are required in the previous uh approval the resolution to get parking permits and uh any of the patrons would use available Downtown parking and we went through an exhaustive parking study and showing where those parking lots are available I have the drawing with me but I don't think we need to show it um but there is a uh we're in a shoulder District as what's what's the what our uh our downtown study calls this it's an areas you move away from the downtown where parking starts to decrease the uses become a little more disperate and I'll talk about recommendations for that shoulder District when I get to my my planning proofs but uh uh the allocation was 13 spaces for this Zone and 13 spaces are still required I'm assuming that uh the original resolution would apply that any employees whether it's the owner uh and the pro would buy parking permits to park in the available uh parking that's um the um employee parking lots are right across the street Parking Lot 19 um has Rel relatively available parking spaces even with part of that lot being taken up with the construction vehicles Etc um so um the parking proofs were were submitted they were approved uh no parking uh Varian is required I would also point out because we're not expanding the space we don't need site plan approval either obviously we're still restricted to any of the uh hours of operation for the lighting there was no hours of operation uh restrictions based upon the uh the uses on the first floor by the by planning board but obviously uh they'll have to comply with the signage so all that's already been approved by the planning board and it's in the resolution as part of your package um but what we do need use for um is the uh D1 use variants to meet the positive criteria for a use variance we need to demonstrate that the site is particularly suited for the proposed use as this advances uh one of the primary goals of um of zoning which is general welfare we believe that the site is particularly cited suited for the proposed use um I won't go through um Mr manovich's comments um but I would point out um and I'll get to in a minute um exper experiential uses experiential retail uses um along with food establishments um and restaurants are anchoring downtowns these days throughout the state of New Jersey it's been a large shift in the last 10 years and especially since uh since Co um this occupant will alive in the street we thought it was important uh first thing I I asked was are you going to put reflective material so we can't see into the space like they did at flywheel um because it's really anathema to the goals of the downtown and they won't be which means that one of the things that's nice is as indicated during the day whether it's the school kids coming down from the high school um can look in and see someone golfing if we drive by in the evening you see the lights on you can see activity and that's what en livens downtown it Sparks interest Etc the um as was indicated in um in the exper in Monclair and what we find of these these experiential uses is uh the the patrons of uh of the golf club will then frequent neighbor neighboring restaurants cafes um and uh and food establishments uh since they can also bring in food not alcohol um they can also uh patronize again local establishments pick up some snacks for the uh while they play golf and then generally afterwards it's been my experience um is that they're going to go out to unless they're you know mid day uh they're going to go over to the standard they're going to go to one of the restaurants um and uh uh and patronize those local downtown businesses so there is that symbiosis between uh these experiential uses and the downtown fabric the um and even though um a parking uh variance is not needed I think there's a good control over the amount of of parking spaces that will required I think actually this can generate less than a retail um but even in its worst case scenario um if you got two employees um and you had a total of 13 people in the space uh that's 11 using 13 spaces that were accounted for in the previous parking study so again there's there's a parking available um whether it's on Taylor Street whether it's in the local Lots whether it's on the street spaces um there is parking available and again I think this is actually a better use than um a restaurant which would be a permitted use because it definitely drives fewer parking spaces um the negative criteria uh there's no subst anal detriment to the public good there's no substantial apparment to the intent and purpose of the master plan we think this is uh there is no detriment to to the public as was indicated uh it's quiet use it's insulated um what's nice is what also is particularly suitable at the site is there is no residential right above us even though it can't be the the residences expensive residences above the Monclair uh application have not complained we have a buffer in that we have a retail floor above a lot of sound insulation already and then any residents will be one floor above that so there's good separation between any of the residents uh and the activities will call on the F on the first uh first floor we think that uh uh this is actually there's no detriment of the public hood and we think it's actually consistent with the m the master plan Downtown Vision plan on good planning principles um the uh I would point out that with regard to the uh master plan and zoning ordinance um we also need to Recon the omission of this use from the uh um from those that are permitted in the uh in the use it's the enhanced burden of proof um you know I I did the uh bakti yoga bar in about 2009 and then I did flywheel in 2011 and flywheel in 2011 um it was a use variance we got approval by 5 to two about two in the morning um Joe Steinberg was convinced by Mary mcnett um one of the Elder Statesmen of our town um who was in her 80s at the time but she was the most forward thinking person on that board and she saw then that experiential uses uh were going to become the new paradigm in in the way our downtown will will flourish and uh it took a few years but eventually in 2018 when the master plan was updated the master plan did specifically look to uh to that goal and among the goals and objectives uh was to promote opportunities for high quality retail and Commercial activity in all business districts and to strengthen existing business centers including the downtown core more specifically the master plan recommendations uh for the B4 Zone on page 54 uh of the master plan was to examine the permitted use uh uses in order to permit more experiential type commercial uses um and that's exactly what they did however you know they couldn't think of all the potential commercial uses the 2021 uh Milburn Downtown Vision plan uh also in the vision section uh regarding retail environment page 28 the plan recommends that two shoulder areas be developed with a wider range of uses to bring more people down downtown and to strengthen the core and again that is designated in that as one of the shoulder districts um the general reason when you uh when you try to reconcile why the the master why the framers of the master plan uh didn't consider the uses the uses too new um to have been considered and that's the case here um this technology of being able to put this high technology um equipment into a space that small actually didn't exist in 2018 so while um there were some centers on the highways uh for parties Etc was pretty limited technology it wasn't the high technology here it wasn't the boutique operation we have here uh that I think is unique and uh I think it will be a a good use to attract other other um uh people to the downtown um there's certainly a need for it we have a lot of golfers in this community I don't have time to do that I wish I did maybe I'll let up here someday um we think it is consistent with the master plan I think we can reconcile the emission of the use um since it is a fairly new use I think it meets both the positive and the negative criteria I think it's good for the down town and I'm happy to answer any questions yep are there any other businesses in downtown mbour that are open 24 hours um there are none to my knowledge that are open 24 hours I think that again um when we looked at the demographics there's pretty much nobody using it from from 12 at night to 5:30 in the morning when we looked at the other uses maybe they linger over till 12:30 um but again the nature of that use and you're not getting 12 people at the that time you're going to get one possibly two people playing those hour so um there are people in the downtown at those hours um not a lot I don't think this is going to overwhelm and I don't think it's going to cause a problem but they could access it theoretically yeah they could ACC I mean I work I'm I'm my office we're contemplating moving to the downtown um you 24 hours um I will tell you on Tuesdays and Thursdays I work till 2: or 3: in the morning it's when I get most of my work done I don't cause a problem in my neighborhood my neighbors my tenants next door and my two family don't complain so I think you can have limited use and um office workers can work anytime there's no restriction when an office working could come in I don't make my employees come in at 3 in the morning but I'm often there and when is besides the residents that are on the third floor of this building are where are the closest residents besides those two besides those residents I think there's three uh across the street across the street there are resents it would be 50 feet across Street some of the second floor not directly across the street because we've got Town Hall here so you'd have to come probably uh there's nothing that way so um you'd probably have to come 75 100 feet over the Dunkin Donuts is where I think you get the first residences I don't think you have any on the other side of the street H as well hog does I'm not sure yeah I'm not sure if they have res I don't think so and the lighting the external lighting I know we already discussed this going to clarify is they going to be external lighting it's it's all what was the only thing it would be on um would be task lighting is required to stay on around Doors by code 247 so that would be on and that would provide for safe entrance in and out and any signage uh on the on the building is limited by the 2022 appr and when the window those are going to be covered not covered when the lights come on will the will the lights bleed out into the street no well there'll be you'll be able to see the activity in it but um I don't think it'll it's going to be it's not going to be high intensity lighting can I speak just real quick on the the lights you might be concerned with this one because you're like oh that light's going to shine over this way actually these are projectors so light is always going that way so light doesn't come out of the window although the window will be open don't be a covering over it correct so there could be potentially some lights well I don't think you want to I think one of the worst spaces we have in the in the in the B3 neighborhood district is the um the tutoring center that has white Shades down almost all the time it's awful for pedestrian I think it's better at night oh no I'm just talking about people sleeping have that I'm concerned about people sleep but there's no there are no residents directly across the street they will be affected thank you any other questions any questions from the audience regarding this application comments come next right comments so any questions comments let's do that okay just raise your right hand you testimony about of the truth I do your name and address Ben ster 4 St l l r 422 Wyoming have good well great to see you guys at 9:15 um and thank you guys for the work you guys are doing I personally know it's a thankless job a lot of hours a lot of preparation so I appreciate the time you guys are putting forth um I urge you consider the benefits of the indoor Doling facility simulation brings to our community with the owner already successfully managing other similar facilities uh we can trust in their ability to alleviate any potential parking concerns especially given that the primary use is relatively sparse um as he was saying uh parking in Montclair I've been to site a couple times I had to park in the parking deck and walk with my bag across Montclair uh for here the site behind uh Charles Schwab the parking there's not going to a parking issue that I can see it's certainly closer than the parking deck in Mont Clair um from the simulation I'm glad you guys did some work on that uh their technology is the best the facility that they have today is very professional and it's funny I didn't even talk to to James but you know we used it before we went to Pebble Beach and to Scotland so it does give you that preparation I think residents would all who golfed would like to have that opportunity uh without having a drive to Montclair where there's one in chadam there's one at Balter there's a couple over in uh uh in Madison now uh for the hours um in when I was Investment Banking I'd go in at 7 AM get out at 2 am uh this isn't going to be the same type of commotion I believe uh there's already people who work in the middle of night but I don't think a lot of golfers unless you miss a couple three-foot putts at your local Club are you going to go at two in the morning and practice um so let's Embrace this opportunity to enhance the recreational options to Residents encourage good innovative business uses uh in downtown Milburn while minimizing any potential disruptions I encourage you to give them the variance they're requesting uh and thank you for your patience any other further comment regarding this application testimon about to be given tonight's to the truth of the truth I do your name and add stepen g r i l 375 Milburn Avenue good evening chairman board uh my name is Steve gillo and I am the executive director of explore Milburn Short Hills the special improvement district for the town and I'm here to speak in favor of the application submitted by the applicant uh for those who are not familiar Explorer serves as the economic development small business support office for the town we have over 500 businesses in five distinct commercial districts including the downtown and firstly let me say that things are very good in Milburn the commercial vacancy rate has decreased from 16% in 2020 to just 4.9% today including a reduction to just 2.3% in the downtown 105 new businesses have opened throughout the district and we have multiple new properties coming online in 2024 and Milburn indoor golf will be one of the most exciting projects in that batch of businesses and I'm proud to offer my endorsement uh as the economic development office for the town Explorer has a variety of best practices that we believe will help continue to enhance the economic health of the community Milburn indoor golf will accomplish three very specific goals within that vision and that's where why we are so excited for the project firstly this project is a perfect example of the wraparound services that my office offers to a potential tenant I began working with the applicant a year ago to find an appropriate space develop community support and connect him with local professionals to guide him through the review and approval process and hopefully this will be a success story that we can use to recruit other exciting businesses in the future secondly explore has advocated for the creation of more destination and experiential retail one of the critical aspects of Downtown Development postco last year I spoke in front of the planning board about the benefits of tanino cigars on upper Milburn Avenue another destination and experiential retail business tanino has enlivened upper Milburn Avenue and I believe mil Milburn indoor golf will do the same for the outer edge of the downtown and finally from a design aspect vibrant and interesting storefronts are key to enhancing The Pedestrian experience of our downtown based on my visit to the applicant simulator in Montclair I believe that this storefront will be an attractive unique and exciting addition to the downtown Gateway thank you for your consideration thank you any further comment regarding this application in that case I will close public the portion of this board members your thoughts I'll try to be brief um thank you for all the testimony um I think it's a very cool idea um we do need more experiential businesses in town particular since the loss of the movie theater um I think it's really nice to have an alternative to some of the more traditional things that we that we have in our downtown um we've really thought through all of the things it's very cool I thought it was a VR experience so it's fun to see that's actually not you're actually using your body my only concern quite honestly is the hours and I would be more comfortable quite frankly if it ended for the first year at like midnight or 1 in the morning and opened up again at like 5:30 which seems like it's going to capture the bulk of your clientele anyway only just to see how it goes I am a little worried about people's coming from the standard and being drunk and going in and there's nobody there I don't know that that would actually ever happen but there's no other 24-hour business in downtown I don't think milbourne's a 24-hour town I think we're kind of a bedro community a suburb so I would be more comfortable if the hours were limited I don't I don't um have a problem with the application or the hour um I think this is a really different um kind of application than say a 24-hour convenience or something like that I I think that the analogy to just being able to go into your office you know for work purposes kind of at any time of day or night um is kind of more equivalent to what this would be um I think in terms of worrying about what's actually going on inside and like a hypothetical situation of someone being drunk from a and going like I I just don't think that that's really a Lord's concern you know that's a liability issue for the business owner um so I would fully support the application I think that it's going to be it's approved a really great addition to our downtown um I think you know attracting more business to you know restaurants and other establishments that are already existing um in the downtown and again um in terms of the ordinance itself you know people can foresee that something like this would exist when it was crafted I think if if you could you know this absolutely would have been a permitted use um I don't see any detriment um to the to the downtown by adding this only benefit so I would be happy to support it I I agree I think that this is a great use of the space uh I like the lack of intensity of use that it would bring to the town in terms of it you know I was when I was on the planning board and this came in front of us I was always concerned about this space because of of what was done in terms of the parking because you know it could turn into something that would be very high volume but this is not and I think it'd be a great addition to the downtown uh ours don't concern me as um you know it's really individual play someone who's used these it's not something that it's not Top Golf it's not that type of thing so I really think it's uh would be fantastic addition to the downtown and just a nice offering so I would whole largely support this application yeah I agree and I I think it has the potential to bring people into some of the other businesses as well and I think that's a positive so I think it's um I think it's a great addition and I would be support likewise I would EO all those comments um send forward to vote Yes sir CH just want to remind everybody that it's a de dis variance and um the applicants five affirmative votes for approve I have a motion this case I'd like to make a motion to approve a second second Joseph yes shandro herj yes Amy Lawrence yes Gary Rosen yes reg TR no J GL yes yes good look at the project thank you very much everybody appreciate it have a good do we're take a 5 minute recess so uh and then we'll get to our last e e e e e e e e yes Germain Wong g e r m a i n w n g Rich Keller k e l o r okay please first of all I apologize for standing between you and dinner I know it's getting late keep um so I I'll make my introduction really quick um so um my name is j Wong um my wife and I moved to Short Hills 13 years ago into a cute little tutor in the Greenwood section uh we are now in our second home in Short Hills at 87 old Short Hills Road which is the subject matter of this last item on the agenda um so you know the construction of our house actually took a lot longer than we had hoped so by the end of it um we sort of ran out of steam like I knew at the time that uh we wanted an outdoor kitchen we wanted a fire pit and also a sports court but quite frankly by the end of it we were just exhausted like we couldn't deal with it we just wanted to move in so fast forward three and a half years later um I guess now I'm over the p TSD of construction uh I think I'm ready to tackle the outdoor space so for the last uh five six months or so I've been working with a landscape architect and also with my engineer Rich Keller uh to come up with a uh you know a proposal for the outdoor space so with that I'm gonna hand it over to Rich to talk about the proposed plan any questions no any questions for this applicant so far come on thank you um the property is a 73,800 ft² um 1.68 acre flag lot um flag lot meaning it's got a narrow um STA and then opens up into a larger section which we call the the staff or the stem or the pole and the flag in the back um it's unusual for um Milburn we don't have a lot of flag Lots uh within the community uh the stem portion of the property is 69 ft wide and uh it's about uh 200 uh 300 feet long actually sorry it's a 279 feet long and that uh contains uh 18,750 square feet or about one quarter of the total L area is actually in that stem that stem is only used for the driveway and there's a drainage um conveyance system that runs down picks up um water from other areas and runs through the property but essentially um um a quarter of the lot is in front of the property which when you've been doing zoning in milour as long as I do as soon as you see that it sets off alarm Bells because you say you're G to have a problem with rear yard unoccupied because we have a a unique ordinance the only one in the state that I know of where you're requireed to have 25% of your total lot area has to be behind the house and unoccupied and so when 25% of your lot is already in the front with nothing in it and then you open up into a a back section which is 54 th000 square feet so still almost double the required lot size for the R3 Zone um with that much area in the front and a house roughly centered in that property uh alarm Bells go off and that pretty much anything you do even minimal additions to the rear yard you could run a foul of the rear at unoccupied and still be well underdeveloped in terms of accessory structures and that's exactly what happened here um I would say the uh I would also point out um another thing that impact besides some Wetlands associated with the with the uh drainer structure in the front in the front there is a a lowly section of the back of a number of properties um that contains freshwater Wetland we've looked at those in the freshwater wetlands um what I'm going to do is I'm going to go to um a photo exhibit this will be A1 dated May 6 2024 it's an aerial photo of the long long application at 87 of old CH Hill Road compared by Casey and Kelly with today date and the photograph behind is taken on May 3rd 2024 so it's relatively recent and uh what we did is we superv we superimposed um the property lines uh very accurately over the existing property show the surrounding development and you can see that um there's a driveway coming in opening up into the circular driveway and you can see the uh the darker area of Leaf litter Etc in that Northwest section is the area that's considered freshwater wetlands so with the freshwater wetlands there's also a 50 F buffer so in that area um you're allowed to disturb you're allowed to construct approximately 200 square feet of new structures on previously Disturbed areas so we do tuck a little bit of of a toe of the outdoor fire pick was in there which is permitted but we really couldn't put the sport court uh anywhere in that area so I take uh A1 and I Mark the limits of that a little darker and mark the limit of the uh of the freshwater wetlands any place I want to put a sport cord would have to be to the south of that and so we looked long and hard about where the best location was to put it and we realized um I'm going to go briefly to my A2 also pre-marked May 6 2024 this is photo board number one all photos were taken by myself earlier today approximately 9 o'clock in the morning um I took photos because the site can be daunting I don't know how many people actually um drove down um because it's hard to find and it there signs saying private because they had people who walk their dogs thinking it's an entrance into the park or something um so if he didn't I did take a few pictures because I think it's important to understand the topography in the rear and why we're asking for um a sidey yard setback for the sport court big property um we do have some Wetlands but why are we looking to go with almost a zero setback on our Sport Court um on a big property like this it's because it's the natural place it wants to be so if we go through the photos quickly um we're looking um across old Churchill Road down the access driveway you cannot see the house at all as you come to the point where you get to the end of that stem and it starts to open up into the flight portion of lot you can see the modern house was house owned by Stu for years modern it's been significantly uh uh modified not really expanded that much but Modified by the applicants um which it was always modern uh keeping that modern vernacular um and it's a little Hidden Gem at the back of the property U that you don't see it all from the street as you look on the left side there's a a driveway that accesses a three car garage on the left underneath that exterior Terrace um if we come down to just at the end of the house you you can see that there is a lowline slot in the back along that area um on the left of the south side of the property which becomes the it's the lowest part of the property which means for sound abatement and for visibility placing the sport cord at the lowest part means it's least seen by any of the neighbors um if we if we look at that spot a little closer I come into photograph number four this is moving further to the back uh as was shown on both the site plan um there is a wall if anybody walk back there retaining wall that retaining wall is actually close to 9 ft beyond the property so our property is 9 ft closer and then the sport court starts by and half ft forward of that so if you look at photograph number four you can see the retaining wall um about 8 to 9 ft further is the property line that uh it's a straight line but because it comes down the hill it looks to bend but it comes down from the neighbor's property at 15 Hillside comes down goes up the hill Etc we're looking to put the sport court um at the closest in the back would be 15.6 feet off so fully conforming to the set back for the rear um however we're looking to dip a toe in uh to take advantage of that low area uh and Di to and that comes down to 1 56 or 86 um 1.86 ft off the line it's only for one small little section and then the the court which is held orthogonal to the house moves away from that line we'll get to something else in a second if I stand in the roughly the center of the court and I look towards those wet ones you can see that the property Rises up so if I was to um put the sport court um more Central to the property it would be 2 fet higher which makes it more visible to the neighbors behind me at 15 Hillside and possibly to people on yourk Terrace behind us um and finally photograph number six I'm looking from the rear looking back over what will be the sport Port up to the adj adjacent neighbors sport court at 15 and there is a little spot at which from the second floor of the house you can actually get a framed view into our Sport Court 300 feet away but we did meet with they are also clients of mine and I tell all my clients um especially when I have neighboring clients or also my clients I want to keep everybody happy you know if I can't keep everybody happy I don't need the job um so we met with the Hoffman uh we met on their property they came over um they strained to see where they could actually see the court but we did agree to put um three evergreen trees um in one spot where they can see a little bit from the second floor through a little opening and possibly see in VR and then we offered where their sport card is up top they have some Ro d we offered to provide them three roaded D that they'll plan on their own property to further buffer that area the people behind us um you can see there's already dense Evergreen vegetation on the top of the the property real quick that the so w no no no that yeah there so 9 ft you have behind the sport court for the wall you said and then how far is it no no no I have 16 and2 ft from the sport court to the property line and another 9 ft to the wall and how far to the house on York on New York really from the edge of the sport court to the to the houses what I'm really interested in that's the side of the house so they don't look back that way but I scale no is where going here so 30 scale so from the closest part of the house to the sport court would be uh 79 ft okay and what's what lot are you referring to J well we're what I think what the chairman was asking behind those Evergreens that sit on top of that retaining wall is the property Lot number 26 which is 12 York Terrace it's the very end of York Terrace on the right side um left side is also fly line maritz uh met with them they had no objections whatsoever wa wait wait wait Rich so lock 26 12 YK terrorist the distance from the proposed Sport Court to their home is how many feet 79 ft thank you and it exceeds the 12T minimum setback by more than four feet so we don't have a we don't have a setback issue from the sport court to the people at um 12 Y where we did have an issue is we wanted to keep the sport court orthogonal to the house we wanted to get to the lowest point we wanted to stay away from the wetlands and we also wanted to keep it away from the three largest trees on our property which is the 28 the 18 and and the 21 in tree the way this tree is grown down across the uh The Roots grow down we looked at it with an arborus and we decided we can easily fit that that sportb there without causing any damage to system on that 28 in tree um if we were to take this four cour turn it and put it back 12 ft we definitely take the 21 inch tree down but also this the the port would sit higher on the property and be a little more visible to the neighboring uh Hoffman who are at uh six lot six which is 15 Hillside Avenue so they have put up a dense Evergreen buffler we've also supplemented the behind with um some uh Green Giant Arbor the one area where they could see through from their second floor um was right in there so a little slop between their Sport Court which sits up on the hill much bigger sport court and uh and the Evergreens we identified an area where we could spot in three more green Giants that would Eclipse that view from the second floor and that's the second floor and that is the distance of uh from the house it's actually 240 ft now I would point out also as confusing if you were back there is that there is a fence that is 11 and2 ft off the property line so when we dip that one or it's 11 feet off the proper so when we dip that one that one corner into the only 1.86 feet off uh we're still very close to 12T off the fence which is what the perceived sideline is and again if you look you see this drops um from 263.50 down to close 250 so this 13.25 ft drop in a very steep manner so when you when you're on this SP Court which is the highest part of the property you look right over the our propos SP court it's down low their existing Road D both D will actually block some visibility and some noise between the two sports our Sport Court is actually undersized at uh 27 by 54 so it's not a regulation sized pickle ball court um they actually my client we drew pickle ball lines on it but their actually preferred use is actually um racket sports like badminton and uh and those games I think um in speaking to uh Germaine she's actually never played pickle ball so her her interest is actually to get some versatility but um uh pickle cours are generally uh regulation is 30 by 60 for the overun um we're at 27 by 54 so it's smaller um but it is does allow for recreation CS 44 by 442 is the actual court but the recommended us pickle ball Association um required or specifications for a pickle ball card of 30 by 60 well I won't tell them it's their size but at the end of the day you still can play pickle ball oh yeah you can play pickle ball yeah so yes you can play pickle ball you can play any kind of ball you want on that and I think the uh we don't we don't regulate against pickle ball or any other Ball Sports on these surfaces um but I think what's important is that when you go into the back because of that fence because they couldn't put the fence um with the steep slopes they couldn't get it to a property line so when you look in the backyard and you uh you look at the uh excuse me um this fence is actually 12 ft off the property line which runs right through there so again it feels like it's a subject property um we've met with the neighbors the neighbors um did are happy with the arrangement they are not out to object um and so we think that uh it's the best location on the property so if you turn the if you reduce the if you regraded to make it a little bit lower and you turn the proposed SP Court location perpendicular mhm so that you wouldn't need that side yard setback what what is preventing you from doing if I held it if I try to hold it 12 feet off and come in here um the primary roots on this on this tree are out in this direction and I get the 21 so I would most likely lose the 28 I would definitely lose the 21 it's true so and and um you know I've got to keep it biased a little bit to the South which bottom of the drawing just to stay out of the the press water we so if I was to put it in that area um I don't want it to be right against the back of the house it's not required so if I was to instead with the back left corner at 12 feet off I would necessitate the loss of in my opinion two of the large trees um one being in the foreground here um the others actually don't have good pictures of but um so the terms of the um the rationale support of the variance is that in this location we can save more trees and we get the property we get the sport cord lower because if I move it up I'm not going to carve it artificially into the ground so I'm coming down into a this is the natural low so it's a progression down property um my last A3 would be um two um rendering prepared by Good Grounds design landscape architecture um out of Philadelphia the last Cape architect that J's been working with uh this the uh these were dated February 20th 2024 um I'm showing it as A3 the first picture is looking from uh the driveway which we're actually because it's a flat spot we're removing some of the driveway putting papers in to get better water absorption and better Water Management technically ruc discover we didn't consider that um and you can see the uh the sport court is is level with ground about the middle sits a little above it's about an intermediate level about a foot higher than this wall about 3T higher than the uh 3T lower than this Terrace which is another foot lower than than the ter behind so if I was to move this over it would definitely come up three to four feet as it moved over into the backyard and it would necessitate the loss of at least two possibly three of those large trees photograph number two this is taking from the uh looking at the proposed for court from the existing covered Terrace so this is already exists this covered Terrace uh there's put an outdoor kitchen on it fully compliant does not need vage relief uh and you can see that the way that this kind of accurately represents the way that the uh the sportb gets Nestle down into the landscape into that Hill underneath the Hoffman's forbort at the top of that Hill underneath that retaining wall so it's it's really the best location in terms of sound absorption uh as well as minimizing tree disturbance so we think that uh we need two variances one is for rear un occupied and one is for the accessory side yard setback um in the uh case of the rear guard unoccupied that is clearly a C1 uh variance it's applicable over the shape of the property combined with the location of the lawfully existing structures makes it impossible to add any square footage to the backyard without the need for variance relief the um the uh the unusual shape of the lot um combined with the location um U it's driven by the flag shade lot we 18 , 746 ft of stem uh increases the the required re unoccupied by close to 5700 Square F feet um yielding an unoccupied requirement of 18,300 where 17257 is proposed I would point out that um without the stem um the remaining 54 uh th000 foot loss I took off that St um and looked at it this was my lot area i' be way under on my rear occupi it's this 25% of the lot being in front that really drives that number up the um so without the without the stem um we'd be uh at about 36% re unoccupied we also need the variance for accessory sidey yard setback we think this is a C2 or the flexible C variants um where the purposes of the land use act are Advanced uh the benefits resulting from the deviation out we any detriment and this is known as can the flexible C also kind of considered where the proposed application with the variants represents a better planning alternative uh we think that uh that's the case here uh it promotes the conservation of Natural Resources in uh in trees uh promotes a desirable visual environment by depressing that into the lowest portion so it can't be seen further less seen by the motor in its location down below especially evidence in in uh in mockup number two on uh on A3 um we think it's uh there's no adverse impact on the enjoyment airl open space for the Neighbors we think that uh with regard to the negative criteria there is no substantial detriment of the public good uh or substantial impairment to the tentant person of the master plan the project does not have uh any adverse impact on the neighborhood in our opinion um it's under on Accessory coverage 15% worth 20% is permitted it's under unlock coverage 26.8 with 35 percent is permitted and even if I even if I didn't consider that stem I said well yeah you're under unlock coverage because you got that big stem but if even I just took the back half of the property um I would still be uh only 30.5% coverage whereas 35% is permitted so I'm still under by 4 and a half% so this is clearly not an overdevelopment of the site um the stem doesn't affect my rear my my accessory uh coverage which I'm well under in all cases again 15.3 where 20% is permitted uh can't be seen from the surrounding streets um where the existing topography and the landscape screens it from the rear yards of the joining properties uh it's not visible U from the dwelling or usable part of 15 Hillside but we did agree to put some additional trees between our two properties at the cost of my client um and certainly uh no detriment to the public to the master plan um we uh we think it promotes the character of the township uh as a small suburb of the highest quality uh the St property was was quite rund down um good friend of Walter Roger manchel uh back in the day but it was really falling apart and uh my my client has really lovingly kind of worked on the house and now looking to extend and really kind of refinish the backyard they don't need a Vance in terms of setbacks for for the small area um of the Upp fire pit but it does drive up some coverage so it does exacerbate the rear and unoccupied again I think it's clearly a C1 variance so there's no detriment to the to the master plan or the or the um for the public I believe I'm happy to answer any questions we really did you know I I don't ever like to come with a zero set back um when you look at it you can't believe it's a zero set back you think it's actually 12 feet so happy to answer any questions any lights on that Court what's that any lights on the they're prohibited from just to your drawing you show 186 as your um offet you also show 0.11 what is that uh retaining walls do not have a required setback so the retaining we have a small little retaining wall That's gets closer to the property line but that can go right on the property line but the actual sport court the surface actually that's actually to we have a little slot drain there too so the slot drain is actually 1.86 so in that wall That's 9 ft off the line what's the top of that elev elevation top wall you know or how high is the wall it's um the top of wall is 253 and A2 that's the bottom wall side I think that's so I've got 250 25075 at the bottom at the top of the wall is 25338 I think that's 25330 is bottom wall on the other side well it's bottom wall on the other side but flat on yeah my my Crews always because sometimes walls stick up so they call it a bottom of wall but in in this particular case it's contiguous with the top of the wall so it's again it's a 250 338 so it's about 3T higher than this and then you've got the tall green giant Arbor body on top of that beyond the property line of the applicant there is this triangle form which is you know at the corner of the the variance that you're seeking what is in that triangle I mean I'm presuming it's the neighbor property and it's it's the fences yeah well the fence the fence sits almost well about 11 and 1/2 ft off of the proposed for court and then it runs along the property line it was so steep in here that it was it was almost impossible for them to transition down and run along the line so essentially they found the most convenient place to put the fence which is um somewhat shown on here so here's the fence running to the back and they sort of gave up that area which back in there is where you know we get that's the property line and this is where back in here is where we get close so the uh again if you were if you were out there walking through the back you would think for all intensive purposes the fence was the property line and we're very not quite but very close to 12et off but again you're at the bottom you're 133 feet below the sport quarts that sits right above that so it's so in some ways by tucking it in close further our way you can see down by tucking it in close they look right over the top of us who maintains the triangle area my client so uh have you talk Environmental about this project no am I required to I don't know they sent me rather even know how they got the application rather strongly worded letter regarding this project they're concerned so okay well the trees will be addressed as part of that's up to them do what they want to do with this project but I'm just really asking if you spoke no it's not no we won't use any fertilizers what's the what's the made this is it sythetic this board or is it hardboard or what is it I don't know if the applicant has ass signed that part yet B permeable can you stand up if you're to speak to like I don't we haven't decided yet but Jen whether it's water permeable we're going to pick up the water underneath so it's the same as though it was fully pered but if it's it's probably will not be it probably will sheet across we'll pick it up in those drains we'll provide dry I know there are a couple of options some people use asphalt and some concrete I honestly haven't decided what the surface would be we had a couple Sports courts that are just that plastic synthetic right um I've done them where they're plastic synthetic on top of the cinder base yes um they tend to move a little bit but but generally what you have to do then is you have to put an under drain system so you think you're getting round w a recharge you're not because what consideration here anyway yeah it's not it's I don't think that would be appropriate here ask you so you want to build a sports cour but you're not sure what you're going to build it out I'm not sure what sports you're going to play on it I know I want to play batminton interestingly pickle ball court and baton Court exactly the same size I grew up playing baton so but I mean Batman you're probably not playing on Sand correct so it's going to be some sort of hard yeah it'll be a hard service whether it's Asal or concrete right yeah one of those two any other questions for either the AF or um for the record there's no one in the audience so we we met with all the neighbors yeah um so uh where memb is your thoughts first um I'm not thrilled about building anything on the lot line I just don't I realize that there's some anomalies with this lot but I'm not sure that it can't come off it so I'm not a huge fan of that my other concern is this is I mean it's essentially a pick ball court and um you know being that it is in here for a variance um you know it may not be the owner's intention but it could be the next owner's intention to play there I am concerned about the noise they generate they generate a ton of noise I mean if it can be built as of right go ahead and do it but this is not as right so it gives us the opportunity to put our two cents in so that is my concern with this project isn't there a pickle Fall Court right NE once again it's as of right as right so we don't have we don't have put on what they do with that one but this one we do I agree with Craig I'm not a big fan of putting anything backless the line me we're talking a tenth I me I know it's the just the wall but it's an improvement it's a tenth away from the property B uh it also looks like you can swing it through there and maybe lose a 4 in tree you can probably not lose the 28 in tree that's just my thought I um I I hear what my fellow members are saying I I would be concerned about if you build it you know as a right losing those large trees and also making it you know more unsightly for the Neighbors because you're pushing it um further out so I'm I'm kind of mixed on this because I you know I agree with what they're saying but then I also feel like you know you could be making things worse by building it as a grade I agree with that so I I also feel mixed about because the environmental concerns the trees things like that like i' would rather not disturb those um and it seems at least from the testimony we understand like it would be challenging or potentially worse to put that somewhere else um the question I guess is you know is that a hardship is it a thing that one needs in there I don't know that's I would probably say no yeah I don't see it where this say sew War at all this is strictly a want this is not a there's not a hardship then getting Sports Court but um you know I realize the anomalies of a lot in terms of driveway but this is a pretty big 54t by 27 and 1/2t Pie of con it's pretty big so any other thoughts I mean I agree with everything you said I don't have like a huge opposition to it because people do put Sports is actually sport Sports sport next to my my neighbor is below me but I still see it I still hear it so I feel like anywhere you put it they're gonna hear and see um I can way I'm not I'm not I'm not horribly objecting to it but I I hear all of your valid concerns can I say something can I can I portion is not close ahead I was just going to say that yes it is close to the property line um but I think it is I'm I'm I'm on the fence too hearing all the views but just personally I feel that there is a natural barrier in terms of of you know between the two properties and uh with with with that fence which is sort of you know already giving that 12et protection I I would be okay with that although I I do agree that it is actually on the property line technically I I you know I could be okay with with going given all the constraints that you've talked about given the tree and you know swapping it making it perpendicular you already gave that testimony uh that it was thought about but you know without causing environmental harm you couldn't have gone ahead so so and I don't like it I could be supportive of it yeah I think I would say the same thing I it's it's an unusual situation um but I think that the um I would be much more concerned if if this were done as right and I um I think that uh you know I think the fact that the neighbors don't object uh is also you know certainly not decisive but important to me so I think I could be some in that case do I have a motion um I will move to approve this application I can second Joseph Goldfield no shandrew har yes Amy Lawrence no Gary Rosen yes Regina Truitt yes Jessica Glen yesner no thank you wow [Music] um turn off make a motion to approve it a second all favor go into executive session you know mirror Mor support e e e e e e e e e for