microphones folks in accordance with Section Five of the open public meetings act chapter 231 1975 he advised that a notice of this meeting was made posting on both War town hall and mailing the officially the newspapers list of the meeting dates annually indicating this meeting will take place at Town Hall at 700m on uh March 4th uh 2021 Joseph colfield here here Amy Lawrence here Rosen here Regina TR here here Vice chair Jessica GL here chair here uh we starting off this evening with approval of minutes of 1824 um any corrections or changes to those that were circulated um who's eligible Joseph shandre Amy Gary Regina Joan Jessica Craig all right um can I have a motion on that sub minutes make a motion to approve the minutes of4 and a second I can second thank you all those in favor I anyone opposed uh next we move on to our memorializations starting with calendar 391 1823 G at 20 Claremont Drive in Shore Hills uh any corrections or changes who's eligible is this 20 clont this 20 clont who is eligible um Joseph Gary Regina Jessica C would someone like make a motion on that memorialization motion to approve the memorialization for calendar number 391 18-23 great a second second Joseph corfield yes Gary Rosen yes Regina Tru yes Jessica glad yes yes uh next calendar 39 5223 uh Naran and Ara he day 999 sore Road in mbour um do I have any corrections or changes on that moralization then who's eligible s eligible are Joseph Shan J Gary Regina Jessica cig someone like to make a motion on that moralization move approval second second Joseph Coffield yes Shan Drew horani yes Gary Rosen yes Regina trit yes Jessica glad yes yes lasting of calendar 39 6223 Charles and Margot Mullin at 17 wind Mar teris we have Joseph shandrew Gary Shan Jessica CRA if there are any corrections or changes can I have a motion in calendar 6223 motion to approve and a second second thank you Joseph Coffield yes shandre herani yes Gary Rosen yesen pen yes jessat yesner yes we'll be starting this evening with calendar 39 5823 at 150 Main Street thank you Mr chairman members of the board my name is Anthony Silla with I'm with the offices of Levan sillo in Milburn on behalf of Dr Leonard and Sandra stritz the subject property is 150 Main Street it's situated in the residential R8 Zone uh Dr Leonard strulowitz and his wife Sandra have opened have excuse me have owned the subject property for approximately 50 years and the property was developed for Dr stoltz's practice of automet where he practiced for approximately 30 years the stritz his son Daniel occupies the first floor he has a mail order business for contact lenses his business operates from 9:00 a.m to 5:00 pm Monday through Friday he has one full-time employee and one part-time employee the part-time employee either walks to and from work or is driven to and from work by her husband Dan works Monday to Thursday Dan or his full-time employee actually carry the contact lenses to the Federal Express Dropbox on Essex Street there are no Walkin customers and Dan's business has no sign the last occupant of the second floor was learning RX I believe some members were around back then um that was a seven days a week brain training exercise Center for people aged 5 to 90 sessions were by appointment only the center's heaviest usage was after school was dismissed and students had appointments at the C center learning RX vacated Circa August 2020 during covid the second floor has been vacant ever since on behalf of Dr Leonard and Sandra strulowitz we represent this application for Dharma chakra Buddhist center the proposed use is for meditating teaching meditation techniques and providing Buddhist classes the center is run by volunteers as a result the center's use occurs after business hours during the week and meditation or classes on weekends I have two witnesses Frank Hall who is an architect and he's also an attendant uh and at times a teacher at the center I also have Richard Keller who's both a civil engineer and a professional planner unless there's any questions of me Mr chairman I'll call my first witness zo Mr Frank Hall pleas do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give in tonight's hearing to be the truth whole truth not but truth yes I do your name for the record SP your name my name is Frank Hall h l LK architect for the applicant please give the board the benefit of your educational and professional uh experiences in the field of architecture yes I'm have a bachelor of architecture from the New Jersey Institute of Technology 1987 I've been licensed in the state of New Jersey since 1992 I appeared before numerous planning and zoning boards throughout Northern New Jersey over those past 30 or so years and your Li currently my license is currently a good standing yes great credentials are accepted by this board thank you Mr chairman thank you Mr please explain your your plans to the board it's a good location great sure Mr sis we start yes just a little bit of a heads up that because of your uh introduction that Mr Hall also is Affiliated somewhat with the with the proposed tenant correct uh is I just want to get clarity on that yeah uh yes he is he's a teacher there and an attendant so he attends his testimony at this point is just going to be architecture that's what I want to get and once that's concluded and there is no further questions of him as an architect he will then be a fact witness okay thanks for the thank you um dhash Shar or Buddha Center has actually uh was happy to find this location because dmer shark had been searching for a new location since uh the remnants of hurricane Ida flooded the uh the uh the center out of its previous location in the Milburn Mall um so this location is a little bit larger than U what the center had previously the idea is to to occupy the second floor um this open area here uh would be the primary meditation space um when arrives by stairs here uh to a reception and bookstore area uh there's the main meditation space is here uh there's a little bit of a kitchenet over here and some various other ancillary spaces such as an office storage room and so forth um there are no major Renovations planned in order to occupy the space uh the the idea is that Dharma Shaker can actually occupy the space as it is although once they're in there the idea is possibly do a few minor modifications such as removing a partition or two just to create better flow of space but nothing nothing that would substantially change the uh the the the use of the space continue with the uh the only modifications that are proposed at this time would be signage and some lighting at the exterior lighting on the side facing Ridgewood and on the side facing Main Street um all below the line of the second floor individual non-illuminated letters with some goose neck lighting over it um within the R8 Zone um only two square feet of wall graphics is permitted we have um 6 and uh 725 sare ft total on each side uh although to compare it to a Zone where we would be a permitted use I provided the percentage coverage of the signable area for wall graphics and that's a total of 88.7% where 20% would be allowed in one of your business zones on the Bridgewood side and 1.8% where 20% would be allowed in one of your business zones on the Main Street side those are the only uh modifications to the building um inside at this point the thing those proposes we would car and paint and and so forth um we're showing a total of 18 seats in the main meditation space it's not an unrealistic uh number for a typical class that would be actually generous for most of the classes and I can talk more about the the nature of the classes when I put my other hat on the conclusion of this testimony I have no further questions on the rest any questions for this professional from the board the lighting would it be have like hours of Illumination the bo lighting that anticipated being uh if if there are requirements to din the lighting after a certain hour I don't recall whether there's a you know a 10 p.m. or midnight uh U requirement within the zone within the ordinance yeah I mean it's not a permitted use in the R8 zone so is there a proposal in terms of hours of operation for the liting uh we we wouldn't need we wouldn't need the lighting after say 10 p.m. when people have all left the the last class the latest of class would run so just to 10 p.m. yeah that's reasonable any other questions so so this property is like change of use from before right well it's um it's also an educational use because primarily Dharma Shakra provides meditation classes classes in meditation and related spiritual views that are comport with meditation practice um and RX was also a um an educational use although for whatever reason it was it was classified in the resolution as general office but I I would I would characterize it myself as substantially similar so so the followup question would be like is there any impact on like public dep parking um uh we have although we we do have a planner will be testifying further than that so who is is going to actually testify regarding the use of this facility you are yes okay right uh okay then uh any other questions and capacity architect just a quick one and I don't and again if you're not this capacity then when you come back your second capacity how many people do you anticipate will be in the building at once um that's a little bit more about but I guess it's related to my architectural testimony as well um evening classes uh weekdays um generally maybe a half a dozen to a dozen students and for any class that would be a teacher and an assistant so maximum 14 people um approximately I mean we don't uh we'll dig deeper into that yeah and um weekend classes um events that happen on maybe every other Saturday or or once per month uh those might be anywhere from 15 to 25 people as an approximation you know we'll Cil that for a minute because right is an archex so I don't want to get things too here um so anything else regarding architectural plans that I'll throw it back to you um okay and then decide how you want to go here Mr Hall uh please tell board the nature of the use ofer sure and um providing this information as a fairly long-term member of the U of the center uh about a dozen years um and as I said the Dharma shocker was over in the Milburn mall for many years I believe it's been in the area about 17 years bit before my my time there um but the center exists to provide meditation classes everything we we're really here to be here for the community we exist to be here for the community everything from people who want to learn to meditate to deal with a little stress or to sleep better through people wanting to engage a little bit more to deal with problems in their life I've found as a teacher that uh very often when people come to the classes they're dealing with something um relationship issues or work issues or health issues and the like and so classes are offered that give people not only a chance to learn to meditate um ways to develop um beneficial lines of thought ways of thinking to to gain more more p uh patience uh to have more patience with people the world around them to have more compassion for others um so we really believe that uh it serves um as a benefit to the community uh the nature of the classes are typically um a meditation uh some of the classes have teaching component um you know the the meditations and the meditation techniques are offered in the Buddhist tradition but it's not like anybody's expected or required to have any particular beliefs we don't tell anybody what to believe or what they have to do it is very much offered as a um you take it as you take it as you wish um so let's talk about operations okay since you're affiliated with this um business that's really before Mr asked your a question in terms of your affiliation you say you're a teacher are you an employee you no actually the I I should mention that the the center is volunteer run I'm I'm an architect I'm self-employed as an architect and as a uh as a member of the center I volunteer my time as a teacher other people volunteer to teach or volunteer here to assist a teacher at a class it's really a volunteer run operation when you say you're a member of the Senate what does that mean as a member I'm a monthly member I mean Dharma Shaker is supported by people who pay monthly dues to belong as well as for um class fees we uh we charge a nominal amount typically $15 for a class Although our policy is nobody will be turned away for lack of funds because our primary Mission we don't exist to um we're not here to exist as a business per se we're here toh to serve the community so maybe to go a little deeper into line of question um let's talk about average use here okay we have the area to meditate we have the schooling take me through what an average day looks like well an average day I should clarify that typically the space will be empty because most of the members are they well they're they're all volunteers and most of them work I'm I'm at my office during the day other members are at their places of work during the day um so we're really only there in and around the time of a class I mean somebody might come in to do a work in the office you know somebody keeps the books that sort of thing uh but typically a little bit before a class maybe a half hour 20 minutes before a class somebody would arrive an assistant would arrive the teacher would arrive people would start to filter in uh say a typical evening class is generally 7 to 8:30 p.m. so around 6:30 somebody would show up presumably after the owner's business the first floor has uh is closed uh so about 6:30 people would start to come in there's a class people might stick around and talk a little bit after the class which would end at say um 8 8 8:30 so so maybe about 9:00 it's being locked up and everybody's going home that would be a typical week night class uh when we have a special event uh the the classes that might happen either every other Saturday or once a month uh a little bit more um attendance there but none of this is like u a typical house of worship where people come in very large numbers typically it's members coming to a class that they come to on a regular basis or people have already bought tickets on like Eventbrite for instance uh to attend the class we have a pretty good idea of how many people will be there for any given class take me through the the youth component the um the children's meditation class it if we do actually follow through with this as we had thought about most recently maybe taking down this partition and allowing this is more like a place for people to socialize between meditation sessions but if we do hold them a children's class typically that would be for the children who come with with the adults who were in The Adult class so it's it's the same set of cars how many members do you have uh right now I think we have about yeah may maybe about 25 members at the moment we had a we had a bit more before hurricane Ida flooded us out of the Milburn mall so you you um uh you silent capacity for this organization are you any type of executive no okay so so we have an administrative director we have an educational program coordinator and we have a couple of members who are on the the board forite so I'm assuming you there will be a lease correct there is a lease okay know I was not involved in that transaction so are you familiar with lease I'm familiar with it I I didn't negotiate it or administrative director did but I'm familiar with it so knowing there a business the first floor okay how many maybe on this but how many spots you allocated in your there are 12 spaces total on the site we are technically the owner needs two which would leave 10 for us although we would being nonsimultaneous hours of operation the owner has told us that we're free to use all of those spaces outside of the hours when he's uh right but technically two two are allocated to works right first floor okay that's and as our planner will we'll discuss we do have an an addition parking Arrangement off site yeah familiar so um what what's your busiest time we're trying to maybe for speak for any El but trying to general idea of busiest time would probably be one of these occasional Saturday events uh as I said you know maybe uh well we only have use of the off-site parking every other Saturday so we would tend to schedule around that um but uh that would be our most uh hopefully our our most most active times and once those would be events that are maybe 10 to noon or so on a Saturday um and then maybe twice a year there would be an event that's a little bit longer like maybe 10 till midafternoon um but if we're you know if we're lucky at that you know we might get 25 or 30 people but that's you know once or twice a year are there classes on Sundays as well or uh we we do have a study program for for members who are uh studying a little bit more uh rigorously and currently we have those on that on a Sunday and that's uh right now 8:30 to 10:30 on a Sunday we're we're using another offsite space at the moment since you are in a very I'm sorry since you are in a very residential area here um much more so than you were over in box Hall um what is uh what is your latest class when will that end in the evening 8:30 8:30 currently 8:30 is a l do when starts or when it finishes finishes it finishes as say typically typically the evening classes on weekdays have been 7 to 8:30 any any intention of of making it later adding a class after that not to add a class after that I I I don't know if at some point I know we had um a class up in Ridgewood that I taught for a number years that was like a what we call a branch class uh and that ran from 7:30 to 9: just because people had op finded that they once they got off the train they need a little bit more time but the classes here in the BB bur area have been 7 to 8:30 for many years so do you anticipate once you move into the new space that you might get additional members once you're in the location the sign's up oh we we we do hope to to gain some additional members because we lost some members you know sort of being homeless it just it was was not as uh invigorating to people shall we say to sense and I guess that does raise the question though about what the ultimate need will be for paring right you can't know that today but well we we can't know that today um but we we do have a track history of uh being in the Milburn mall for about 15 years and over there the classes were similar uh you know classes that maybe today are 12 or 15 maybe they were 20 then do do a lot of couples come or is it us Yes actually there there are both with with the in the membership attendance classes as well as people who come um you know at at the evening weekday classes or a bit more like a dropin class I mean people do sign up ahead of time online but people are allowed to come um at will and a lot of people come with with friends what's the geographic area of your um your organization mostly it's within a few towns uh you know a lot of Milburn Short Hills mil Milburn sh Hills uh South Orange Maplewood um I'm from Bergen County but uh I started attending classes the branch class up in in Ridgewood so I'm probably the one of the furthest of field people generally speaking everybody's within about 10 minutes how many instructors work for the organization none of them work for the organization how many volunteer of the organization um right now we're a little short on teachers um we have maybe a half a dozen people who might teach a class at one time or another and and your administrative assistant is also a volunteer or employee he gets a stien but he he's also has a full-time job elsewhere so in terms of payroll that's the only person that would be technically on payroll so to speak we do we do have a resident teacher who also gets a stien but uh those are the only people but by Resident I don't mean lives there I mean just a assigned teacher did you a question so in terms of the size of the previous facility that you had versus this one the other one was a bit smaller we have the the the whole gross area of the floor is about 2220 Square fet something like that and we had about 1,500 previously in terms of fing spots was simar we were at the Milburn mall so that was not a not really a question over there we we we looked at probably 50 different spaces since hurricane Ida which is over two years now two and a half years ago now and uh this is one of the only ones that was promising uh partly because it does have parking on site and most of our classes are you know they're relatively small these these evening classes you know maybe um that we've been using St Stevens's Church you they've been very kind to us over the last year and a half or so we've been holding classes over there and there's maybe a dozen parking spaces that are available on that site and that hasn't been a problem all this time quick question so uh just about the zoning so you it is called the Buddhist center and you said it's not your typical house of worship will you be having any worship at all is this is this an atypical house of worship or not a house of worship at all well but but is a little bit funny like that it's um like learning RX was brain training we're more like mind training so uh we you know we do have um spiritual components I mean there is some Buddhist iconography there because this does come out of the Buddhist tradition which is you know an ancient tradition uh but it's it's not the same kind of masses of people arriving like whole families arriving for for a worship service on a as you would have like on a Sunday morning at a church or Friday evening at a temple I'm actually going to side ask our attorney is there any issue with any kind of religion overlay with this proposal no based on the um application materials that were submitted and the testimony of Mr PA so far it doesn't appear that this is presented as a house of worship okay is seeking approv correct a specific use as being um meditative use as described by the applicant through the testimony thanks for clarifying that y um and how many people so just trying to get a grip on you said there could be as many as 25 people there um on a weekend what do you anticipate how many spaces of parking will those 25 people need and is there what happens if you have too many people have parking we do ask a good question in that because I think there was some I don't know it's conflicting but if you can just clarify and answer in my question about the amount of people who who attend on the weekends yeah um well we had we do have a a study program as I've said on Sundays and right now that's about a dozen people we're using the vole meeting community meeting Center over in Vall and uh We've regularly had um anywhere from 10 to 12 people attending um there are members who attend on zoom we're sort of high-tech Buddhists like that we have you know we have classes that are recorded and and on Zoom um and on those events we haven't been holding those events on Saturday um for a long time uh but as I said those we would we would hope you know maybe 15 to 25 people something like that 20 how much parking do you think they need well again we have a planner who will be talking about those site site issues U but if we had if we had 25 people um there's a good chance that would that would include you know four or five couples six couples so you know you can subtract one car for each of those people who come as part of a couple so so to clarify it factually on the weekends during the 10:00 a.m. to noon slot you anticipate 15 to 25 people and then during these couple times a year from 10: a.m. at 3 pm. you might have as many as 25 to30 is that fair that's fair I so reading through this lease and the hours of parking which are got sort of cryptic um Monday you have 3 pm. to close parking I I can I can make that somewhat less cryptic because I've spent some time looking at it okay so basically the hours there that work for us are every other Saturday which we would have to work at with Dr crossover who owns the uh the dental facil right now every other Saturday you go 7 AM to close and then uh sorry every other Saturday 12:00 p.m. to close to 7 a to close and I right so we have essentially we have full access to that lot every other Saturday the 12:00 p.m. to close really doesn't work for us because we wouldn't start an event in the middle of the afternoon so from our perspective Ive we have use of that lot we have beneficial use of that lot every other Saturday Sundays will work for us right um he has the doctor has evening hours Tuesdays and Thursdays um so we wouldn't be using his you have 7 a 11:30 on Tuesday it's not available for us until after 8m so basically the weekends as I mentioned and Monday and Wednesday evenings when he does not have hours so classes right now good right so for instance right now we've been having classes on Mondays and Tuesdays we would probably move that to Mondays and Wednesdays um okay unless unless attendance was so low that we still didn't need any parking beyond our and what is your Friday schedule right now we haven't had anything on Fridays okay it's a little hard to attract people just you know coming home you know Friday rush hour when to start the weekend I'm just sorry to to Circle back to a question that I asked what ask probably three questions in one what happens if you have more people that need parking than you have at the current site but is the where's the Overflow parking a block away uh Hing south on the other side of Main Street so street parking essentially no in a lot that's you're saying if they exceed if they exceed the parking spaces that are available at that site so at the dentist site and right okay well we those occasions we we have 16 spaces in the rented site plus 12 available to us on a weekend so that's that's 28 spaces so we we don't anticipate on any kind of regular basis needing more parking than that than 28 spaces it does say somewhere in here that the dentist doesn't promise that he's going to keep those spaces fore well he's he says he's not going to police the lot to make sure somebody doesn't park there yeah so the other question I have thank um I'm sorry Gina wor there u in the same line of question um you know this least the way it's written okay it's you got one year and then nine individual years subsequent okay if at any point the doctor decides to either terminate this or sell the property and lose this what's Plan B because this is not a super locked in lease by any means the applicant would have to come back to you there's a change of circumstance yeah that's a tough situation to be in obviously but especially the way this is written this is a very you know Loosely formed lease um the way it's done um originally as I was reading in this application you had some sort of deal with the church that's correct what happened to that uh it it looked like once we made it clear to the church that we had to have an actual like attorney drafted lease to make this you know something that we could actually bring before this body uh they sort of got into a internal review process with the sort of like church elders and then told us they would have to go to their vest and it just looked like that was going to be something that as generous as they've been with us that was a process it was going to take several months and we would not have it in time to be here with it tonight so we we saw parking Hills was it's it's our expectation uh although I don't have documentation it's our expectation that the availability of that parking to us would would remain so if we did have parking needs greater than our property and Dr crusher's property down the street that we could also actually still overflow into the church lot but of course I don't have a lease here tonight to uh so with the fact running your businesses on Monday Wednesday and a weekend and and going back to the question I was asked prior about growing this how do you do that when you're not operating three days of the week well we're we're not trying to become profitable we're just trying to offer classes that people will attend well members are members I mean profit it's a whole other thing but you still if you grow your membership I mean that's mean profitability it's up to how you run your business right well we're talking about uh evening classes that have maybe six to 12 people where on nights that we have 28 spaces available to us so if membership did grow we have the ability to absorb that any any other questions I'm just one quick one it is of course the rway river is right behind the building yeah we we can't seem to get away from we were we were flooded out by the east branch of the rway river twice yeah and after the second time everybody said no not not going to rebuild in that space again and ironically we found ourselves right on top of the West Branch of the radway river but fortunately on the second floor this time okay we you know we had a you know two feet of water in our space before and we first Flo is condemned like there but our our landlord has uh has represented to us that they've never actually had the water like we had over at at the midburn mall D shop or Buddha Center you mentioned the Ridgewood location are there many locations those are just like a rented a rented room for the night uh you know we we don't actually have a a hard physical location those places like we were using a a a conference room in a church to hold those classes for years is there like a national organization that you're affiliated with or something yes there is there's actually a a a worldwide organization that we're affiliated with who's the president there's not a president there's a spiritual director who was a a Buddhist none um over in England Mr Hall with regard to want to focus on for for a second your testimony during the weekday if you're going to have six to 12 students plus the teacher and the assistant that's the maximum you anticipate correct that's what the classes have been running like six on a normal night 12 on a good night when the weather's good and you know there's not a good show on or something people come out at at this particular location do you expect those numbers to increase or to remain constant well we're hoping that they do increase somewhat where I'm going with it is whe is wondering aloud whether you are necessarily riant on the space across the the lease space across the street during the weekday during the week evenings correct um week days at night well if if the classes are well attended we expect to be directing people to that that parking yes and and how does that work when you say directing people there's not to be somebody outside no let to let members know I mean we the classes are promoted on we have a website um and we you know we do some Facebook um advertising of the classes to make people aware that we exist um and when people come a lot of people are regulars more than not the people who come on say a Monday night class are regular see most of the same faces week over week you know couple people don't come come back again a couple new people come you know but it you know we can largely let people know that um you don't find parking here you know there parking down there again it's not like you know people you know hordes of people we've never met coming in you it's it's mostly the same people that we get to know week over week and so there's a fair ability to control what people do so I have one more question like um based on the floor area and the user group like what's the occupancy low you calculate for the space uh well occupancy load under the building code is based upon fire safety and so that generates sometimes really astronomical numbers that are not really consistent with how we actually expect to uh to occupy the space but there will be the maximum user you can you can put into this space right oh well right I mean I mean any space uh like for instance this space would be allowed to hold way more people than you would ever really expect to get here um you know un unconcentrated tables uh this this would be like one person per seven square fet in this area without fixed seating uh fact throughout the entire place we would never expect to get that I mean that would be like you know couple hundred people okay thank you we wouldn't know what to do with that those people okay in fact the building department would actually probably cap it well before that thanks one more quick question is there a requirement for handicap parking for this type of business or this uh actually the I believe the township engineer in this report uh requested that the stripe for a parking for hand take up one of your parking spes well it would just actually that's again our plan count count well we we we lose one because the first one has to be accessible space which has to be 16 ft wide so you know we would stripe that probably under the building but again I don't want to step on the uh um planner's testimony since he brought the site plan all right yeah I'll hold the next question for for Mr the lease you have at 150 no what's the term of that Lee um I can answer that you don't know sure please it's a a fiveyear term with a fiveyear renewal okay and that's why the parking lot so this mirrors it right so I was just gonna say this this lease the way the parking lease the way I read it sounds like you actually you have you have nine options you do have that's so it's essentially a read it correctly you read it correctly okay yeah cor okay and honestly our our our long-term plan if if we wind up with so many people attending our classes that we can't accommodate them is that we start looking for another place you mentioned you had 25 members at this point approximately but like your classes are not limited to just members right that could be for anybody well like the the study program on Sundays that's that's going to be all members you have to be a member to attend that class like that the evening classes uh mostly those people are not members a couple members might come out just because they want to come to a meditation class or they come to sort of support the class um know sometimes we have you know two three people attend those classes but it's it's nice for them to see a a member of the class they can talk with them ask them questions and so forth so the pool that you're potentially drawing from us in just 25 people it could be well that's right infinite that's right well infinite Theory hundreds of millions a biger as long as we we've been around you know 17 years in in the community uh we've just you know don't get that type of you know droves of people we would say it's their karma yes some people are are you know attracted to come to a meditation class and some people aren't any other questions Mr audience yeah anyone in the audience have any questions for this witness either regarding the architectural testimony or the testimony regarding um the operation of the fa comments will be H to the end so very Richard K you s G next hearing be truth truth of the truth yes I do Richard Keller k l l r what are your qualifications in the fields of civil engineer and your professional planning yes I've been a licensed engineer and planner in the state of New Jersey for more than 40 years I have a Bachelor of Science in civil engineering with a concentration of water resources and environmental engineering and that is from ru University I also hold a masters in architecture with a declared concentration in urban planning and Design that is from the New Jersey Institute of Technology where I was also an AIC Professor for about 11 years and may be going back soon um I have appeared before this board the planning board about 110 boards throughout the state of New Jersey I have uh provided planning testimon planning uh Support Services to the burrow of Caldwell and I was the board planning board and board of adjustment engineer in the township of lill for three years I just finished uh 12 hours of continu Education last week in preparation for license renewal next month so my licenses are both in good effect thank you CR accepted by boort Institute thank you before you start what have you reviewed and prepared for your testimony I have uh reviewed the master plan uh my firm prepared the base actually we didn't prepare the base survey we um prepared the site plan they have before you we did zoning analysis we've uh I visited the site at least three times um in addition driving by for the last 35 40 years um we've also uh reviewed the uh Township Engineers memorandum as well as the uh the planner memorandum um in uh in advance of this hearing the um starting with the cover sheet that's part of the application you have before you so it it wouldn't be our normal practice to to mark it into evidence um the uh the site is a rectangular site that is located sorry there's not a North ARA but the uh the left side is north the top of the drawing is to the east um sites a corner lot at the southeast intersection of Ridgewood Road uh and Main Street um Main Street is designated as County 577 but we're told by the engineer it's technically not not a County Road any longer at least not in the jurisdiction uh but it is at that intersection um the property um the east side of the property is defined by the West Branch of the Roy River so if we look at the uh the 2022 aerial photo which I'm going to just blow up that so I'll have my first exhibit will be A1 with today's date it is an annotated aerial photo prepared by Casey and Keller dated May 4th 2024 and the image underneath that is a sorry the uh March thank you getting ahead of myself um March 4th 2024 and the base image is from um high resolution photography that we get quarterly from near.com the image there is taken March 11 2022 and you can see that um the e easterly side again the top of the drawing is defined by the uh the West Branch of the raway river as it winds through Taylor Park under W Bridgewood Road makes the curve up behind Lakeside Village up to the dam at Lakeside or the former Dam at Lakeside the um the property is located wholly within the R8 uh residential multif family Zone and lot contains 7,523 square feet or just over um uh just uh almost .2 Acres the um the neighborhood context is that um we are located as was shown in the uh the exhibit we're located in the yellow uh the sort of Light tan colored Zone which is the R8 Zone um we uh on the other side of the street behind the properties are in the R8 Zone which is a multif family zone is the R7 Zone which is also a multif family Zone and to the east of us is the South Mountain section which is an R six single family residential Zone on the uh Corner opposite on Ridgewood is the uh the conservation Zone which is taway Park and right across the street from the property is the uh the Milburn Co-op Nursery School um but I will say that for any of those um who came by the site um during the day in the last um last couple weeks um you've seen a lot more than two cars there it's because pretty much all the moms use that as a as a parking spot to run in and drop off they don't use the available uh parking in the street which there are actually within 400 ft there's uh 27 street parking spaces but because the uh the property has been so underutilized for so long um if you've seen extra cars there it's because their mom's dropping parking their temporarily to drop off at the at the the uh school but any other day or non-school hours there are generally two cars on that site occasionally that's why I went to this one as a little bit of enlargement you can see the first concentric blue line is the area within 200 fet and then the second one is the areas within 400 ft if you see just about 235 ft to the South along Main Street on the opposite side as a parking lot on Dr Prosser's property that's where we have the additional uh spaces available on that side so is that let's just be clear for the record so is that block 902 lot one that would be yes block 902 lot one it's in the R8 Zone received uh we got a use variance for Dr Crosser many years ago to have a commercial space in the R8 Zone and that's the that's the parking lot that's subject to the lease so you can see um the first part of the parking lot is 235 ft it's uh all of the parkings within 400 feet I will also point out that between both sides of Main Street and that 400 feet and that's before you get to the B4 of central business district which starts at Church Street uh there are an additional 27 um Street side um curbside parking spaces that are available uh throughout the day the other uses along along Main Street um are a mix of uh of commercial uses offices institutional uses some single family homes um further up between us and the uh and the um the Lakeside Village just off the drawing to the to the right or the South is the shop right coming across the street um diagonally across the street is the St Stevens that's where uh classes have been held so far and while there is tacid agreement for parking that we couldn't um hammer down with the leas time for this hearing uh that's where the the meetings have been occurred since the wash out at the milour mall and that's directly across the street so we're we there are some uh belief that there will be some access we certainly uh lock down the number of spaces on the lease within 400 ft of the property 235 ft away to be exact the um and as I said the CBD Zone starts at Church Street which is just a couple hundred feet away and I think that's important when I get to my planning proofs as well the um the flood plane um the area in the bluish shade and the and the reddish shade are all parts of the flood plane the special flood Hazard area that's associated West with the West Branch of the Roy River the um the blue area is what we generally call the limits of the 100-year flood um special Hazard area that is uh that is called the flood Fringe also and this is area that uh um is subject to 100e flooding the purple area is what's known as the flood Way flood ways is where 95% of the water is carried during a flood event so that 5% believe it or not is what washes out and 95% of it stays um within within the purple Zone what generally happens is once uh once the water um comes around can't get through uh uh the bridges on Essex Street it comes around the corner of Essex Street near Charli ground and Main Street becomes part of the river what happens is and then Taylor Park also starts to flood and it comes across and Main Street becomes the primary Channel behind the building is actually not much flooding in real life and the water that comes across the frontage um of this building is almost negligible where you really get the the flooding you get about six inches of flooding across the doors on the building next door but water is moving so quickly that despite the fact that we're Ground Zero in the flood zone um the first floor uh according to the uh to the owners who built the building has actually never flooded but it is right in the right in the middle of the uh the flood way because it's in the flood PL flood way um not just the flood zone uh development is highly regulated um on this property the primary NJ DP restrictions are that no there's no new multif family housing because you need to have dry access uh there's no creation of additional commercial or residential habitable space on the first floor no f can be placed on the site um and there's also what's called the substantial Improvement clause which means if we invest more than 50% of the value of the structure um you either need to uh you stop work and you either need to to remove the building or start substantially flood proofing with a with a uh a hardship application so essentially um this building is is heavily um regulated and I will say that the proposed application we're basically doing nothing to the site we're not filling we're not adding any square footage um but it also means when you look at the permitted uses in the zone single family and two family first of all certainly not an attractive being in the middle of a flood whether it's an island or not is not an attractive place for a single or two family house um secondly the substantial Improvement Clause would probably prohibit you from uh investing into make it um one or two family multif family again attached dwellings apartments are not permitted because you don't have dry access so of all of the use that are um permitted in the R8 none of them are viable due to DP restrictions and and the fact is um we have an existing commercial site that's been here that predates zoning as far as I know um so but again none of the uses permitted in the zone are viable with regard to the site itself I'll go to my exhibit A2 this uh also tell my my employee that he doesn't get his paycheck until may they put the wrong dat on but anyway um this is photo photo board number one the exhib was prepared by Casey and Keller dated March 4th uh 2024 uh photographs two and four were taken by my office yesterday Sunday and photographs one and two are taken from Google Street View in May 2022 and you can see that the existing this is uh from 2022 and that was May 2022 and there was um some trees which were really gangling getting into the wires and those have been removed but there are some trees and shrubs on the corner that block some visibility those are actually subject to removal you can see that the building has a stone veneer a single family a single story on the bottom that's where the uh theistic office space is there are two spaces under the building and the above is the 1921 square fet of office base formerly what was termed office base uh that was part of the uh the brain Center and that uh and that is what the applicant um Center proposes to occupy so it is on the second floor um looking at it to the right of our is the old model train shop and as you're aware from probably reading in in uh Mr cilla's um application that that approval um uh will be going away because that applicant um could not come to terms with the current landlord so that they had withdrawn that application and that will not go forward as an event space um and that's we were able to use that same parking lease for Dr crossers um there was no duplicity there was no trying to double double dip um when that deal fell through and we couldn't get the church syod to get their lawyers arranged quickly enough we sought to uh reactivate that basically that same lease from Dr Crosser that was used on the model train shop Tri EV space and we transferred into this building here the um the you can see from the inter intersection here's the uh on the left of photograph number three this is where the co-op is and there's some as I said there's been some parking but obviously and and there's been a good relationship and those people were told they could park there until we had a tentant and don't have to stop but you can see that uh the building does have uh driveways on both uh Main Street as well as Ridgewood um and right behind the property you can see that's the uh the river that runs behind us again in these flooding events it doesn't get up over into the neighborhood immediately on the other side um that's in the South Mountain section it actually doesn't get into the back of the building because the the primary floodway has jumped over to Main Street for the time being so with regard to the uh the um existing survey this is part of the packages before you uh the existing building on the first floor there's an overhang that uh that does have 1,42 S ft of office space the second floor being 1921 Square ft of vacant space um the space was occupied um first by Dr strulowitz when he built the building and then that practice was sold to Dr mclone Who was there until 2008 Dr mclone then moved up to 249 uh Main Street um and then uh sometime around 2014 is when it became um The Learning RX which was the brain studio um the uh the building has had difficulty in leasing um partly because it's difficult to find U users that don't need any parking spaces and it's difficult to in find Intrepid users who are willing to take space that's in a flood plane so certainly um since the pandemic this has been vacant it's been obvious um that uh there's not many cars in the parking lot um the site has been maintained as was evidenced by the recent removal of some trees and upating the Landscaping but uh it has been um somewhat um a onew punch between the uh the train station um being not us utilized at all and this site being underutilized so it's an opportunity for us to reactivate this site with I think a user that is uh complimentary to the existing users on the site and I think we can make the parking work with regard to the um the uh the learning RX actually got a similar use variance um well actually yeah theyve similarly got a use variance and they also got a parking and loading variants um the uh basically what we're looking for today the site is generally flat um and the as indicated circulation is in although it's not marked the engineer has asked that we Mark that specifically as an entrance only to allow access to the uh five angle spaces and then the uh uh there are two spaces underneath the building which would be reserved for I'm going to go to the third sheet now just to that a little bit just because part of our plan is to stripe the spaces that were there previously and you can see that there are five spaces that are angled spaces facing Main Street there are two tandem spaces on the right side of the building um one after the next and then there are two spaces underneath the building which would be reserved for the first floor tenant and the landlord and there are three existing parking spaces on the left side those three spaces is where um we don't have enough room actually under the building so these three spaces per the uh Engineers memo would be Consolidated into two it's always a it's always a funny condition only because we are expanding the parking need um on the second floor do we possibly Tri trigger an ADA requirement to uh to convert to to create a space but it's good planning anyways and the engineer has asked them to do it to be compliant with the current ordinance even even though you could make the argument that there's some latitude on an existing site but we're happy to take those three spaces um unfortunately as was indicated by the architect the first space in any site plan must be van acccept accessible so that's an 8ft space and an 8ft striped area so it's a 16t wide space so it really takes up two spaces and that me we will lose one parking spot so on the uh on the site uh as indicated there are 12 spaces on the site Ingress off of Main Street egress off of onto Ridgewood um and the uh and those would be striped accordingly with striping we showed it we didn't CRA it out we'll also add signage in Ingress only uh do not exit egress only do not enter um we we'll add the appropriate signage turn out of that or no I I don't hide make a left anyway but yeah it's difficult there's no it's not signed as such no no um most times any times I've pulled in just to check it out I've always made the right because it's you know the problem especially with the Landscaping if we're removing the tall Landscaping right now the problem you get when you leave the tall Landscaping you can't see when someone sweeps around that so we're happy to put in a right turn only um school and stuff over that 3:00 there it's brutal yeah I don't disagree so the um Rich question regarding the parking and location of it my recollection is that for the prior user of that second floor space that they needed variances also for not having a loading area and also for parking in a front yard is that still apply here um the uh I'm not sure about the parking in the front yard we definitely need one it was called out the last time yeah we definitely need one for loading um it's kind of an odd you know we give a matrix of all the permitted uses and the way your planner has basically said is none of that applies because they're all use specific so I'm not sure if the no parking in the front yard was use specific or not but we're certainly happy if if we need variance relief from that we would request that and we think it will'll be subsumed into the D variants anyways we're happy to do that just to make sure we cross the teas and up the eyes we are requesting again the board has the on a site plan um for this size and this use the board has the discretion deciding whether a loading space is required or not so it's again that gray if you don't think one's loaded then we know one's needed then we don't need a variance otherwise we do need the variance it's safer just to say yes we need a variance for for having no loading space and what about the use of the tanm spaces um also that was uh that was approved under the prior resolution um so that is not typical we're starting to see that more and more in in under um indoor parking in multif family but it's not specifically permitted in our ordinance but it was part of the 2014 approval for RX learning takeing through on that where you would put your loading and your handicap spot well here the handicap spot is going to go in here so we'll do probably stripe that ex use the darker marker we'll make that the handicap yeah and I know you're asking for Relief on the on the loading but hypothetically where would you envision well you have to I don't think we need a loading space first of all the first floor tenant um goes to UPS they take all their packages on a daily Bas I'm sorry Federal Express they they take their their packages to Federal Express um and they only get deliveries other than an occasional delivery of um paper from Staples or um according to the uh not even not even he picks it up himself it doesn't Okay so from my from our testimony when we met last week is there's there's never any uh arrival never any drop offs or pickups um from FedEx it's all handled uh it's handled internally uh garbage is removed off site by the owners and any any use on the second floor they would continue to have their cleaning company if they come in every other week or if it's if it's going to be volunteers again which is probably the case again where they've indicated that'll all go out so there's no outside storage of recycling there's no outside storage of garbage there's no um there's no drop off there's no pickups uh and again uh when we met the other day um Frank and one of the directors indicated that similar with office supplies they're all bought in by volunteers so um there's there's really never going to be a delivery that we would need um that's pretty rare actually um so um I think that there's really no need for one obviously what's unique about this site unlike most of the rest of uh Main Street certainly it comes past church4 simp business district is a UPS truck for some reason had to come to the site it was a rare delivery whatever um they could certainly pull in idle go inside and pull out again during the day there's never more than two or three parking uh cars parked in that lot so certainly um a d a delivery could occur they don't happen but they could occur on the lot I find getting uh UPS or FedEx drivers to actually enter a lot it's like hurting cats they just you can give them a you can give them a 15 by 60 foot loading Z they're not going to pull into it but the street on exactly what kills me is in the downtown though less they're taking up the land but um here there is that availability it's not necessarily but it is available so the um obviously the proposed plan is to reuse that full 1920 one square feet of vacant space for the uh uh Dharma Shakra Buddha Center which your planner has agreed is an instructional school/ Studio not a religious house of worship by the way what's that it's a nonprofit structure um and then finally if I just go to the landscape plan this is lighting and Landscaping so in addition to the goose necks that are really Shining back on the building to illuminate the uh the verbiage that sits on two spots um we do have a lighting plan because as required by your um your ordinance we need to bring the site up to compliance with the with lighting standards um there are uh actually One external light mounted at 8 feet that provides light into that Alleyway um It's relatively low um in in a height at 8 ft and relatively low in its in its uh um illumination and then there are three uh external mounted very small um 12 in by uh 10 in 13 by 10 in um building mounted lights are basically shine enough to get safe lighting at the intersection both intersections and the backup areas and there's lighting Under The Canopy and Under The Canopy uh where you've got parking um what's uh and and those lights are also so I think the lights that are mounted to the building again they're they're relatively um minimal in size and and appearance and those are mounted at 14 ft make sure we get lighting that's that just meets the minimums that get to the driveway um this lighting is fully compliant with both the maximum minimum and most importantly the uh uniformity requirements within your ordinance and by the way um my office my lighting expert is the one who met with the township engineer talk about optimal lighting plans when they wrote the new standard and Brian my Landscape and Lighting architect gave um provided the the gold standard and that's what got written into the ordinance so anytime we meet the gold standard we're we proud because what our goal is to provide is very even lighting across the site so so these uniformity numbers Max them in and average them in 2.0 on the average demand and maxim of 3.6 are very low that's indicates it's a very even low lit um uh lighting plant and uh with no spill over into any of the residential neighborhoods and no spill over into the streets it really is just enough to provide safety at the Ingress Andress and for anybody to tr from the lot um we are also planning uh a landscape plan so we're removing pretty much all the Landscaping what was most important is that we remove all of the tall vegetation that was uh blocking any site either site triangle across the intersection of Main Street or any sight triangles across from the driveway erress um so that's all being replaced with a with a much more attractive and manicured plan and that includes I believe there are are uh two honey locusts and then there's uh a number of uh um ink bra plants Drift Roses alog together there's about uh 140 different plants that are being planted in that buffer area um to dress that up and make it much more attractive but more importantly they're low in scale and maintainable so they won't they it'll be a much safer plan that what exists there today um I would point out that um Frank mentioned that uh we are providing the signage the signage um there's uh and there's some lighting on that but it doesn't affect the ground planks it's really focused against the building and there is one sign one sign along the uh along the banding basically if you go back to photo board number one which was uh 82 like that A2 you see there's a band on the building where you have 150 and there was a there's a band where it says currently uh Medical Park Plaza harkening back to its days as an optometrist um that's the band that dakra Buddha Center would go in on both sides the building um that band that's limited to 7.25 square feet so it's uh it's very small it's basically the verbiage it's small elegant and it really just provides wayf finding so people know that the uh the center is there the the um just by uh um but we do need variance relief because in an R8 residential Zone your maximum signage allowed is 2 feet again um no increase in building coverage no change in coverage no fill being placed um we're not we're not adding uh anything that would come near to half the value of the property so uh we are fully compliant with all DP regulations um before I go on to the planning proofs I will just address um uh the township engineer Martha Callahan's memorandum February 28 2024 um some of it is uh is restating what's on the site um item number two on page one we have indicated we will reduce our parking inventory by one to provide a van accessible handicap spot um we will add the spa we will delineate the spacing the striping that was shown on the site plan but not called out um on the painting on the driveway and will add appropriate signage subject to their approval uh should this boort approve it and uh Miss Callahan notes that uh visibility um is uh currently obstructed and our landscape plan has been very sensitive to that and her final comment was that the uh the Tren Str the entrance should be cleaned out which we would agree to do uh and then miss uh Callahan indicated that uh uh we are compliant with the flood plane regulations if we decided that we needed to Ren revise or renovate the HVAC she ask that we Elevate them to above be about one foot above the flood plane which is typical there's no need for us to do that and as I said what's kind of odd about this site is actually the back of the site does not get much flood water so th those are safe and out and out of the flood zone where they are but we have we would agree that if for some reason those need to be replaced they would be elevated to be uh essentially one foot above the flood zone which would be about four foot high um so we would fully be compliant with the um the items requested by your engineer in the memorandum the um the site data box as just shown on the third sheet of our drawing se3 um what's what's noticeable on that is when you go down the existing really doesn't matter when you look at the proposed everything is either not applicable there's no change because we're not changing anything on the site I would say there was one uh correction on there a a transposed number on the building coverage uh 31.0 6 is listed that actually 31.6 r uh but it was just a transposition of those two numbers it doesn't require any kind of variance relief but I just want to make that correction the um so with regard to the variance relief requested we obviously need a use variance uh that's to replace the C the past non-conforming commercial use the office with another non-conforming commercial use we actually think they're both kind of similar as as uh Mr Hall said in that they are really both had an instructional component uh similar to an instructional school or Studio which is permitted in the downtown dist District um that's a d variance we need five affirmative votes from the board um to uh to allow the use we also need some C variances again for parking and loading um the prior mix of uses 13 spaces were required 12 were provided that means it was a one space deficiency and they did get a variance for that the proposed use 25 is required with the loss of that one space for the handicap that'll now be 11 spaces which means we have a deficiency of 14 spaces so the net increase in the parking is 12 or 13 depending on your perspective um but regardless with the uh with the required use needing 25 spaces uh and and the uh lease for 16 spaces the use of 11 on site that's 27 spaces most of anytime after five o'clock during the day two of those spaces will be reserved for the first floor um again no loading zone um exists and so we're requesting a variance for that as well as well signage as I indicated we've got two signages two signs um you're allowed two feet of signage and a maximum Graphics height of one foot our Graphics is actually less than one foot but they're 7.25 square feet on each side um and as Frank indicate that actually is 1.8% of the signable uh facade along Main Street and it represents 8.7 of the signable facade along Ridgewood Road and just for comparison in the B4 Central business district um and the B3 Zone as well um you're allowed 20% of the facade area or 24in Graphics obviously we're moving into a residential Zone that wouldn't be appropriate but just um 1.8.7 or significantly less than that in the CMO Zone which is just up the block where my office is um allows 10% of facade area so we're still it's very di Minimus size and it's really it's it's not much in the way advertising it just provides wayf finding and then uh obviously we need a waiver of the environmental impact statement and since the site is is is uh fully developed um we see no need to uh there's no change in the sanitary sewer there's no there's no change to the site we're requesting a waiver that as well with regard to the planning testimony S A use variance um the positive criteria um needs to be met and the uh as well as the negative criteria um with regard to the positive criteria um we need to establish special reasons um to meet the positive criteria and we must show that the proposed uh project carries out um one of the purposes of zoning as outlined in Municipal anus law um the uh case law actually finds that there's sufficient special reasons in the grant of a devarian when the proposed law carries out any of the 16 purposes we think we advance five and and I'll go through exactly how we do um under 40 under 4055 D2 um a we believe it promotes public health and general welfare it eliminates a long-standing vacancy um um underutilized 50% vacant buildings have a negative impact on the community in general The Meditation Center um complements the first for use with asynchronous um operating hours the shared paron worked because the center and the office have differing hours of operation um this provides for a variety of commercial uses to meet the needs of of the community and all New Jersey citizens the center uh has long served the Milburn and Sh Hills Community um and the uh of those 27 members most are from the from within the commit Community um the uh so certainly a demand for the use within the community and within the surrounding uh communities uh contributes to the well-being of person's neighborhoods and communities uh provides for an instructional use that is within walkable distance of the Washington and South Mountain uh neighborhoods as well as for apartment dwellers along Main Street um it provides for use that can supplement uh existing uses within the nearby B4 Central business district um it's kind of like we're we're looking at it both ways we're close enough to the Central business district that somebody can come here and they can walk into town after at 8:30 they can walk into town I don't think they're going to be carousing at uh at moonshine and dancing um at after a Buddhist Meditation Center but there's certainly the opportunity to go into the downtown and park um um Park while park there um parking is allowed after after the uh after six o'clock on the nearby streets as well um in the in along Main Street and they can certainly uh there'll be a benefit to C4 Central business district it also provides uh promotes a desirable visual environment um and that is through an improved landscape plan and very well-designed attractive lighting plan uh and finally um we're really promoting the conservation of historic energy uh resources through the shared parking facilities um you know there's no point in creating additional parking when you don't need it especially when you have use uses that don't need the parking at the same time it's much more environmental solution to uh encourage shared parking many towns actually require shared parking in in their business districts now and require cross easements and it's it's moving toward um trying to create less parking we have in this country we have an amazing amount of parking spaces per person uh eight parking spaces I think per person is what uh uh it's estimated at and we don't all have cars cars are decreasing um and we do think that uh the shared parking is is ideal so we Advanced five purposes of zoning um however case law also requires that uh uh we demonstrate that the site is particularly Suited for the proposed use to further enhance uh general welfare caveats on that um demonstrating the site is particularly suit suitable for the proposed use does not require proof that there's no other potential location for the use in the community so just because there could be another place for this doesn't mean that um this still isn't particularly suited for the proposed use um it also does not demand evidence that a permitted use couldn't work on the property although in this case none of the permitted users do work in the property um rather it's an inquiry whe into whether the property is particularly suited for the proposed use in the sense that it is especially uh well suited for the use in spite of the fact that it's not permitted in his Zone um we believe that the site is particularly suited um for this project the site and available office space are perfect size um actually it's funny um budhist are very optimistic and uh and very honest because in all our discussions they were happy with six to eight people um 15 occasionally somehow at one point we got up to 30 people um at no point was that ever even a dream um in all our discussions up till now but even if they did get up to 30 I think this site because of its unique um phasing of the demand certainly works well um the uh there is a desired and I would also say um spaces like the children's area they don't have that many children um this has been a tough space to lease the lease rates are very attractive because they're very attractive it's really more space than they need in their wildest dreams will they occupy yes do they expect they're going to get um a children's service to occupy all the seats no they certainly would never get a children's service and an adult service at the same time so some of it is filling out the space because it was available um and as as indicated when they book appointments it's done through Eventbrite so they know how many people are coming if it's on a night when they don't they can't get it they can limited to the amount of parking on site uh and no more people will be permitted to to buy into a class on the those days when they know they have um more than that coming on a weekend on event prite it can say you must use the par a lot of Dr crossers at such and such a street so that's certainly controllable the um and as I said the hours of operation uh dovetail with the first floor use um the existing parking lot will satisfy the need for the center most of the time um and that is literally the two days a week they're in practice um and and Sundays it's only the Saturdays the every other Saturday that they might and uh if they get back to anywhere near the same um popularities they had preco they might need some of those spaces Dr crossers um the site is not viable for um or in demand for any of the permitted uses the site is particular unsuitable for any of the permitted uses and we think the site is actually particularly suited for the proposed use we also need some C variances um for all other um C variances the positive criteria is usually sub into the deuse variants however we can also argue both of these uh the Varian is under both C1 and C2 the parking is a C1 variance where the site is fully developed uh with no ability to add parking size and shape of the lock combined with the size and location of the lawfully existing structure um means we can't add any parking without taking down the building um we think that uh also a C2 variant is appropriate it's a better a better planning alternative to uh use an existing underutilized Parking Lot 200 and some feet away um uh for that rare occasion when the need for parking will exceed the 11 spaces available um so we think it's a better planning alternative and again um available on-site parking will be um more than adequate most of the time signage is generally a C2 it's a better planning alternative to provide signage uh and site identification to motorists this advances Public Safety and Aesthetics with regard to the negative criteria for all variances U and the way it's modified for use variants first of all you need to meet the the two prong criteria there's no substantial detriment of the public good and there's no substantial impairment to the intent and purpose of the master plan and zoning ordinance the um with regard to the public good um we think there's no detriment to the character of the neighborhood the impacts are mitigated by the fact that there's no AC activity at the rear of the site parking variant is mitigated by the 16 car lease on the property which is 200 and actually um as you walk it's 265 as the crow flies it's 235 but as you walk it's 26 5 from the prop from the property in question and again uh outside of the B4 District um and within 400t of the site there are 27 Street spaces available um if uh if they're more convenient um many patrons that come to the center as indicator are couples taking a single vehicle that decreases the uh uh any any possible detriment mitigates against it um with any application there's always some negative um the question is whether it's substantial or not we believe on net um the benefits outweigh any detriments here um the the loading space is not needed so we've requested a variance for that parking the front yard that's a C1 variant it's existed since this building was approved whenever uh Dr strulowitz uh first built it um it is what it is and we're looking to keep that it's well screened by an attractive Landscaping plan that'll still allows for visibility for driving um no impairment to the master plan and zoning ordinance um we think that uh it's certainly uh um one of the goals the master plan is to maintain enhance economic Val viability the downtown and other business districts I would say that in actual function much of the R8 zone is a business district that's the way it's been functioned and that's why our master plan is asking that we we we restudy that area um objective 4.04 is to strengthen existing business centers including the downtown core and other business areas I think this will actually strengthen um it provides uh again people on the street people can walk over they can drive over they can drive walk over from any one of three residential neighborhoods and they can also get the benefit of a short walk into the downtown um we believe that uh the use is not inconsistent with the master plan as was indicated in the planners report that when anytime you have a d variance there's an enhanced quality of proof um and that's the question is if it's such a good use why didn't the master plan contemplate it with have to reconcile the emission of this use from the master plan and in this case it's normally that the use is so new we didn't think about it but in this case that's not it it's because because our master plan actually did contemplate um this is an appropriate for you uh place for other loc uh uses um from the 2008 master plan recommendations on page 53 the recommendation is to examine whether Lots in the R8 Zone along Main Street should be rezoned for officecommercial use to better reflect the current development pattern and from uh the topology planners report um they State here the master plan recognizes that the existing residential zoning is inconsistent with established Land Development patterns which may be better regulated and served by zoning that permits and regulates such uses so clearly um it's not been emitted from the master plan it's been contemplated that we should probably think about some form of overlay zone or some form of new zoning that regulates a lot of the existing uh commercial uses whether it's the event spaces across the street whether it's the shop right whether it's uh any of the other businesses that are are the dry cleaner um the former model shop that uh it's it's a different uh it's a different um development pattern than than we're expecting and the location of the flood plane means that the proposed uses or the allowable uses are just never going to happen um we think that uh um this is a unique applicant we think that while there's some concern that what happens if they grow they haven't grown they have abilities to control that through the way they book through the possibility of space is also uh on the street the uh uh spaces possibly in St Stevens um and quite frankly while it's not a pro a for-profit business if they get so popular that they can't meet their demand um they're not going to book which means they're going to start looking for another another place um as any um yeah I hate to say business but any business does if you can't meet your your client's needs you'll search for a better spot um we think that uh it's one of the one of the best uses you're going to find and I can't imagine what else you would want to put there other than you you're not going to find too many uses like the first floor that is takes up 1900 square or 1,700 square fet and only has three users on a daily basis it's just not going to happen so I think it's an opportunity to invigorate the space uh to get it occupied which is always good for for the main entrance into your town as you come to the B4 District we think it's a good application I'm happy to answer any questions so the uh handicap spot the accessible spot is that in your calculation right now because you show 12 existing do you lose anything we lose one sorry so 11 okay um any questions so this may not be for you it may from Mr soap so so stop me if it's not permitted um is this and this really question Mr assignment is this area zoned for medical use um no no okay so my question would be if I can ask it please uh let me know if I can't um is there gonna be any Psychotherapy there because I know you said that people can put in and perhaps they need some psychological adjustment is there going to be any Psychotherapy there no there's no Psychotherapy it's it's all internal um processing so and and meditative but there's no and and I will say I didn't I didn't mention I was probably my notes there that um in addition to all those good things there is a pretty well- defined track record of meditation providing both psychological and health benefits to people so there's really another way that we advance the purposes of the zoning but there's no Psychotherapy check the box there's no psychological therapy there it's just meditation okay exactly so so focusing on this for a second point I think what did you say the 2017 master plan 201 2018 that there's a recommendation um for office or commercial along this along this border um this help the board out in terms of if it were to be rezoned for those uses as recommended by the master plan what would be the parking calculation for for those uses versus this use and whether there's a reason to justify one or the other well um I'm I'm kind of expecting that you know these recommendations don't ever happen overnight because they there's a lot that goes into them a lot of thinking not just about this use but also about you know there are two types of instructional Studio there's the more one-on-one instructional studio and there's the big um you know spin class or there's the uh uh the orange theory that gets one inspector and 38 people if they're happy um so there's a disc difference between those so we're hoping that when when the township um committee and the planning board looks at the next time they will consider some more facets but right now um if we look at the uh the usage um we basically make sure so we we we assigned the uses that would be um appropriate for that particular zone so one per 100 is what's used for educational facilities or instructional Studios so that is a larger amount than would be for office um which is 1 for 250 or retail which is 1 for 200 but I don't think when they say commercial uses I don't think they excluded the possibility of there being this type of use so we don't know where they're going to go on that but certainly um and what was the ratio when this was an um Optometry office uh uh I think medical um as I recall was actually 1 per 150 so one per up until maybe five years ago instructional Studios were considered to be retail services so they won't one per 200 it's only um within the last five years that we've upped that um to be the one per one uh for 100 one for 100 thank and if I the the sixth edition of um of it parking just came out and there's still no help in that there's no defined use for this we we checked it to see if I could get a lower number but it's not there yet any other questions uh we're on for a site plan on this as well yes um is there any anticipated changes to the finishes there or adding finishes or anything to the building itself no anything else any questions from the audience for Mr ker please Mo forward please just state your name sure Eric Fel Lakeside Village so can I just look at my notes so I do this way these are questions yes I'm ask question how do you spell your last name f is in Frank EI G is in George E L thank you so I don't know who to address this to so you're going to address everything to to so who checks if the business is using more than the allocated spaces how do we know that we don't have a problem generally it's an Enforcement issue so if if any of the neighbors see there's a problem then they generally talk to the police or they call the zoning officer and inquire about it but again because they have the ability um they book each person that comes in books online and pays online they have the ability to control based upon either the 11 spaces available on site or the 27 between the two can I ask a second absolutely yeah so then clarify for me how wait let me get the terminology right um what forces the participants for lack of a better word to not park on the street but to use the lease arrangement with the dentist well I would say being somebody who drives and Parks myself almost every day in the downtown because I make it my business to do that because I'm part of the downtown um my suspicion is if there's two spots in front of the dry cleaner um because the dry cleaner is also closed at night maybe they not the laundry the dry cleaner is then I'm probably going to park at those two curbside spots um but there will be 16 spaces available on the nights we book classes or in the days who put classes at Dr Crosser space so I can't I can't force people to park there I can't there's there's no convenient parking anywhere near Ridgewood Road I'd have to park way deep in the r six Zone to to get my first open space so the viability of spaces would be further down um Past St Stevens possibly but at the but there's very limited between the curb cuts um actually it's going to be much easier just to go down and park but people do what's easiest and what's available so they're going to go if like I said if there's available spots and and there is parking between Ridgewood and and uh Church Street I think it is where the uh there is parking along along um Main Street up to Taylor where the where the be4 starts there are a number of spaces that are underutilized every night um right along this curve line here so I can't see any I can't see any way that anybody's going to go past a parking lot with 16 spaces to come anywhere near the entrance to Lakeside Village which is over here um there's really available parking anywhere along the SE of Ridgewood I have to go at least um 250 ft up um Rector Street to get some street parking so with the 11 available on site the 16 here and the 27 spaces along uh within 400 feet on both sides of the street I again we're we're not talking about um a uh you know a a flywheel or a you know a place that gets a lot of a lot of people at concentrated areas and they come at night re generally is is indicated 7 to 8:30 so I can't see any reason that they would go further down I'm thinking just from your perspective you're at Lakeside Village um I'm another 300 feet up the road here I can't see any reason that they would go past um available parking to come down the okay thank you sure um any other questions from Mr Keller the audience any comments regarding this application from MERS of the audience I then absolutely come back up we'll swear you in for your comments just raise your right hand you s are from testimony about to give in this proceeding be the truth truth the truth yes your name and address record Eric Fel I own property in Lakeside Village 54 and 50 54a and 54b go ahead so I I have an objection with some of the parking which I think has been conveyed here I just have a concern that it's going to get a little busy in the downtown area particularly late in the evening that was my comment thank you once again any other comments forward me your name and your address please just you swear or wait you swear from testimony about to G tonight's hearing be truth whole truth nothing but the truth yes your name and address for Le stong your name Gina g i n a pacus p l AI t a k i s address address 265 Village Road South Orange New Jersey I just wanted to um make a comment uh in favor of uh approving the variance I've been a member of Dharma chakra Buddha center for the past 17 years I'm also a volunteer meditation teacher and have been co- teing the Tuesday class for the past seven years with my husband uh we take turns as teacher and assistant the attendance at our classes has always been low with anywhere from one to 10 students on a really good day 10 students yesterday we had uh last week we had one student um the Monday class uh has four students uh this evening and I think they had like five students last week uh so we haven't even come close to filling the spaces at the St students church parking lot which has about 12 spaces uh I also attend the Sunday morning class so like Mr Hall said uh you know we regular people that come and you know I teach the Tuesday I come on Sunday uh it's my husband and I with one car and I just want to say I'm really happy uh if the center can stay here because it's a meaningful part of my life uh as a student and also as a teacher seeing how meditation has has improved uh the lives for many people that come and someone had asked about psych psychology or I mean we're not we're all volunteer teachers I'm actually a school teacher uh and a meditation teacher but um there are many psychiatrists that come to our classes so I don't know if they're coming because they want to learn how to teach meditation to their uh people that you know come but that's that's all I have to say what time is your class talk on Tuesday it's from 7 to 8:30 in the evening yeah thank you any other comments from the audience raise your right hand please do you from testimony about the G hear truth hold truth of Truth name and address your name pom k a r n pom p o n e r a n TZ addess 96 Whitney Road shills I'm actually here to speak as a Township resident my husband and I have been in the town for over 44 years we've raised our children here it's just such it's a wonderful place and I've also worked in the town I'm a psychologist and I work with child study teams within the town I had in the past and when I found out about The Meditation Center 12 years ago I couldn't believe my good fortune because it's just our lives are all hectic and you walk in there and you feel good it's just quiet and it's peaceful and it's a wonderful asset to the town and that's really what I wanted to say that I'm thrilled about it hopefully staying here okay thank you thank you any other comments from the audience in that case I will close a public portion of this area board members want say here so just to uh remind the board that this is a use variance as presented and it requires five affirmative votes we can handle if the board decides that we see variances are not subsumed the D variant we would hand the D variant so I'm sorry see variances so thoughts I'll start um it sounds like a great idea is a good use in an area that would have difficulty finding another business so I'm very comfortable with that I think the part that's troubling us is will there be enough parking for for the current um members students teachers um and particularly if it grows so I would probably be in support of something that put a limit on that and some parameters of how much parking before they' have to come back to the board to ask for a different situation okay any thoughts yeah I mean I'm um I'm fine with the use as well I think it would be um it is an asset to the community um I I do have some concerns about the parking though um but I I I mean I think the applicant is you know has done things to mitigate um you know some of the concerns that we would have so I'd be curious to hear whatever else think so I'm torn on this too um you know when you have a when you rely on use the D variant are not problem but when you rely on um a lease that can be changed at any moment even within the lease um it's concerning to me um so so you know that being said also the hours that this lot is available is very very restrictive and you know it's it's not practical you know Mr Keller alluded to you know people are going to obviously Park where they want to park it's nice that they provide parking but we all know what everyone goes with P police resistance when it comes to parking and that and that's that's the prerogative of the of the person parking the car is very little that we can do to mitigate that from from the zoning perspective uh but it is concerning to me and um and I'm not totally sure that uh this this lot with this limited application and also um this this lease that like I said doesn't provide a ton of assurances here um kind of seals the deal forward but I like to hear from other board members um so it's clearly a commercial building in a residential Zone and the term of the lease and what I understood is a fiveyear term with a fiveyear option that makes it essentially a 10year lease the term of this parking agreement whether we to to me it's a it's a 10year parking Le I'm not sure well there's a little bit more to that than that yeah i' like to I mean so so it renews every year okay at the prerogative of the the tenant the tenant no the prerogative also of the of the landlord can can be terminated at any time I interrupt can I have a motion to open the public portion sure open motion to open the renewal is at the option of the tenant well it also States in here that that the landlord can also terminate where in um what you're refering first of all to the Le subm part of the appliation park lot the parking lot Le yes okay we have the landlord here so I'm sure that part because I just see it as but if this if this building if this is sold the the lease runs with land well I that it's a commercial lease you can cancel if if the if the uh landlord Dr CER sells the property there's this would be boy not necessarily I I no that's not I I don't want to get into a lease uh debate here this is zoning it really it should yeah but it's predicated on you having this you yeah but you the the question was that the issue it's it's certainly a relevant inquiry where we're talking about offsite parking on a lot a block and a half away that's also located in an ra8 Zone where nonresidential parking use is not permitted nor at the time that the do that the dentist received their use variants was it contemplated that another user would also be used in part so or I'll ask this as a question to to be protected for for whom for the for the tenant in the case of a mortgage or uh because those those are other situations where one could lose their lease uh in a sale right they it would require this I I believe would require this tenant to have a an smda right a subordination non to protect it but for $300 month no's Take No One's Gonna Give You an three 11 so it says Dr Crosser covenants and represents a Dr Crosser is the owner of the property and has the right and authority to enter into and execute and deliver this agreement B there are no other parking lot agreements presently in force granting any other third party a right to use the parking lot you're you're too Dr cross the owner of the property I'm sorry and you're too let's say Dr Crosser is no longer the owner of the property the lease is tied to the real estate so I guess my point is this is what this is Mr chairman Mr chairman for example if a $3,600 a year lease you're telling me is going to somehow lock them in to a subsequent order it actually says the parties here too so wouldn't it be the part these people of the parties the have the right to decide whether they want engage to engage or not but but that's the best your for Mr chairman Mr chairman let's assume let's just assume you're correct the the applicant comes before the board there's been a change of the modific there's been a modification in the lease of the parking lot yeah don't know that we don't know that I mean no one knows anything let's be honest no one enforces it I mean you heard it right here and and your your own your own uh professional said it who enforces it a Noisy Neighbor tell about driving by and seeing what's going on what but but you know Mr chairman you're not the enforcement agency and and that doesn't you've heard you heard of the representative do you think going to try to pull a fast one come on I don't have reason to believe F that they pull a fast one I have no reason to believe they won't so so you any other questions please not questions but I I'm gonna finish my I'll close a public portion of the Year from my perspective it's a commercial building in a residential Z it's a fiveyear lease with a fiveyear option it's a 10year lease this lease I to your point could be ter but it's the best lease you're going to get for for what this is I believe and it's a 10year lease at the tenants option so I I'm I also don't believe that it's a very heavy use and based on what you know the conversation we had about square footage per you know spaces per square footage were this not Zone residential at 150 150 feet for space it's basically what's in the lot now I think it's 11 maybe 12 right and and if it were the alternate calculation that Mr Keller gave it's probably 17 spaces I think maybe 18 here here I think the space is like 1700 square feet did I calculate that at 100 whatever 1900 okay so 19 18 19 I I just I I don't think this is a deal I I don't think it's a heavy use I I think there's probably adequate parking to cover most of the use that happens in this space and it's not used very frequently I I take the concern what happens if this lease if if something happens to Dr Crosser or he if he makes some change with his property and maybe there needs to be some thought or protection against that or they need to come back before us or whatever that is but otherwise I don't really see the issue with this let me ask you one quick thing on that um we have a Tuesday night class yes no Pary what do we do so I guess the point is you're saying if they hold class when they don't have additional parking I mean they say they'll self-regulate and we say we don't know that's your point I don't know I just I can't I don't even think they're going to use the 12 spaces on a Tuesday I mean I think ultimately that's the question really what is the harm going to be I think I think if you know the bigger concern maybe that there's growth in this in this organization but I agree with Amy's comments I I think I mean you know I'm not sure how we're ever going to get anything in that space maybe it has to be vacant I don't know how we're gonna get anything in that space if you know we we uh you know can't can't rely on this kind of agreement so I I I think you know given the nature of um the organization and the history but the number of uh people who use the facility if some people Park on Main Street on a Tuesday night at 7 o'clock I I don't think there's going to be that's going to be a real challenge for um the town or people who also want to park downtown so I think that you know I I certainly don't have any issue with the with the D variants but I I just think I'm not sure how we're ever going to get anything in this space and it seems to me that this is the kind of use that you know I think is positive for the town and so I don't I I I would support and and I would Echo Amy and Greg's comments I think uh this seems to be a light use facility and to your question Craig about you know on a Tuesday night if you lose the parking from the doctor's you know uh a parking lot agreement there are 27 spots if I heard correctly on each either side of Main Street and on a week day on a week night I don't see you know from what I've heard that there would be as much usage there would be enough parking spaces around Main Street and lot of parall streets which are there which I don't think that should inundate parking as such so from that perspective where this this lot has been this this property has been wakened for three plus years I think it might be a good use uh and just generally the positive comments that people are talking about in town uh this might be a good use from my perspective can I to help the board um couple things first of all I think the board did hear testimony I believe um that there was efforts to try to Market this property as what it was in office use or maybe professional office use and that that was unsuccessful and that was what I was going to in terms of the parking ratios because obviously in the prior resolution that was made part of the record that they only needed variance for one parking space because of the nature of the use but the evid the testimony that was presented is that there were efforts to try to find another office use and they wouldn't be able to find it so therefore you have this more stringent parking ratio that's number one number two um I have been involved in applications where the board is similarly concerned for good reason with the adequacy of parking and the proposal by the applicant to utilize an off-site space um usually those if those applications that are approved include various conditions and make the board comfortable based on comments not dis similar to those we're hearing tonight one of those is that every year the applicant has an OB obligation to maintain their certificate vency to file with the zoning officer a um representation that the lease remains in effect for for that following year number one and number two that the applicant agrees to fully comply with the restrictions in that lease regarding when they can operate when they can't operate Visa the offsite parking space so requiring the app to affirmatively every year sort of recertify their use to the appropriate uh Municipal official um is a little bit at least in those cases and it's really up to the board ultimately delts to to you know address maybe it's up to the board some of the issues that are yeah usage is hard to cail because there's effectively No Parking On A Tuesday or Thursday 100% you can't say you can't operate on Tuesday or Thursday well no that's what I've had cas look this is your representation to this board that you're only operating during the week on Monday and Wednesday that is it you're only allowed to operate Monday and Wednesday that's a condition of approval and those types of conditions have been appell by the courts if the board wanted to go that direction well well or or I mean on a on a Tuesday they they do have a certain number of spaces right they can they just can't operate Beyond capacity potentially could I add one thing sure just instructional schools and Studios only came into the ordinance about two years ago when learning RX went to the board we didn't have instructional schools in studios so as part of site plan when it came to the board what kind of parking should we use so they went with general office it was just but by today's standards learning RX would considered instruction student Studio which would have generated the same arum part of this we didn't have it at the time used so office is still one per 200 correct 250 250 250 yeah 250 so for me I'm not worried about the Tuesday Wednesday I'm worried about the events on Saturday night that have 25 people possibly more for the big events which are every other and um those are the those are the disruptive events that I think could exceed the the parking that is available to them and um I wonder if we could come up with a condition to to not impact the neighborhood in a negative way I don't think the testimony was for Saturday night I think it was Saturday 10 10 to three there were a couple times a year okay Saturday day then or maybe Sunday for the instruction all right Saturday day then but I guess the same principal ofs uh applies rather to parking capacity Saturday there's 25 people you can reasonably say there would be could be 25 cars there could be 10 it's hard to say you can make a condition for the capacity it's hard to hard toce that right all of our conditions are hard by Nature so I mean is there you know a motion or I I think we're split this up into the a d separate so we're going to do the dant first and then we'll follow the C's so um okay and and that because of the unique circumstances here um namely the fact that the applicant is relying on off-site parking to satisfy their parking need and parking requirement that my legal advice would be is that the parking is not subsumed into the D variance should be done separ right so D will be separate the use IR will be separate of that and any conditions that we move forward on c will be L SE so in that case is there a motion on the the D variance in terms of its of the use okay I'll make a motion to approve this uh application has a use variance second I'll second that Joseph Coffield yes sh har yes Amy lawr yes Gary Rosen yes reg true it yes Jessica GL yes cig clner yes um in regards to the C variances uh on recommendation by Council I think it would be smart to include um that the um lease is uh verified every year and in and in good effect um and liit any other recommendations Bo if there's any change in ownership yeah anything in regards to the loation of the lease must be in good standing uh annually or if at any point if they lose it it must be a notification to the township as part of the resolution can we specify that it goes to notification to the zoning officer I mean it make sure it goes there consent so including that um that condition uh is there a motion so motion to approve the application for C variances with Craig's condition you have a second and and obviously um shouldn't say Obviously the conditions would also include for the testimony representation compliance with any uh professional reports uh from the township professionals including Miss and Graham also right correct as well regarding landscaping and such yes um have a second second Joseph yes shandre herani yes Amy Lawrence yes yes it yes just yes yes good thank you very much next up we have calendar 39654 um 184 wed Bri Ro keep [Music] w you swear orir the truth yes your name for the birth certificate says that yeah long story long story one of these years when you retired she's okay M how are you T night tonight I'm fine thank uh watch don't you give us your qualifications for the board and uh move forward from that I'm a licensed architect and planner of the state of New Jersey I have been licensed uh licensed architect for almost 40 years but I think only about 33 years in New Jersey because I did come from Illinois uh my practice uh is at uh 211 Washington Corner Road I just recently sold my building um and it's Handover and um I have been before this board before and I've been before many boards and sat on the planning board in Livingston um I don't know what else you need your license is good standing correct fees are paid excellent uh your qualifications are accepted you're uh I'm sorry last name is m i e o Meo and your providing testimony um as a li AR and a professional planner I don't know if this so much needs so planning but yeah as a little planning as it needs okay thank you uh we're here today um and I understand you all have the exact same drawings um we have a situation where we have a garage in front of the house and it is a hip room garage right now is existing on performing at 14.67% variant we are lowering uh the the roof itself which on these pictures just the way it's coming up on the angle does not really show quite as tall as it is when you drive by on the street um and we're also lowering the garage walls a bit um just because right now this is a little bit above the second floor and what we need to do is we need to be able to walk out onto that deck so not only are we taking the roof down but we are also lowering the walls uh minimal about 8 inches uh just to be able to get a slight step down to be able to make that work um I feel that um because we're lessening the mass of the garage um that I don't believe it would be a detriment to the neighborhood if you were at all able to drive by on White oakd Road you probably missed it uh because there are so many trees around uh this whole area are trees that go almost all the way to the street and this is the front left side so the neighbor that would be impacted the most doesn't even see the garage you can't even see the other house and there's a whole line of bushes here um and the only reason I know you probably miss the house if you did drive by because I miss it every once in a while I have to turn around in the church and come back the the half a block uh I think that this would not be detrimental to the neighborhood and I don't think it uh impacts the intent of the zoning ordinance or the um the zoning uh plan so if I was to stand on that de the front yard I'd stand probably 12 13 feet off the ground oh no um this is a 7 foot door and I'm six feet tall oh your head oh yes I thought you I thought you meant your your feet having people up there in the front yard standing on top of a roof with their heads 13 feet above the ground how's that beneficial to the zoning plan and master I don't think it's detrimental at all to the zoning plan um because as I told my owners as they're going through this process they're going to be on that roof three times that's so why do it because they want it because they want it I don't believe it's going to be used I'm trying to find there is no hardship it's a C2 it's there is no hardship I'm trying to also find from that C2 perspective how beneficial to Z Master the only thing no really struggling with proofs here the only thing I can say is that we are a narrow lot so we can use the hardship of the width of the lot that the the lot is only 80 feet and where this Zone requires 100 feet if I had that extra 20 feet I wouldn't be here well you would because you're still deficient on the one side you would be 22 feet off I mean would have to Ho on one side yeah but if you had it half and half and I'm 20 feet on 10 then I'm 26 on one and 27 on the other so um but one proof could be that it could be hardship that the lot is an undersized with lot and that's why we're here you put Furniture up there she G to stand up there so what is I think it's a visual thing where we modeling the house right now on the interior and um my client standing on a roof no I think the look of the house um to not have this hip roof here a flat roof yeah that's what I'm talking about so it's better to have a flat roof than a h h roof well my client finds pictures and she feels that that's visually appealing um to have the flat roof versus the pitch roof if you take a look at um so what they would like to do is something like this so what about um where's the access to it would be through the this bedroom right behind if you take a look at the next [Music] page you're not [Applause] it would be through the second floor bedroom on the left got a slider pardon got a sliding door uh up yes a sliding door sliding door so just trying is is this is this merely decorative or is it going to be you is that space above the garage going to be used for I think it's going to be no no no no there's going to be chairs for twister games I think it's going to be rarely used it's not intended to be used as barbecue or anything like that it's I believe it's more decorative um but it is something that they requested what is the depth of this entire from the 22 on page 82 it's listed it's uh 23 ft long by 1910 wide so it could be used for recreational purposes even though they don't it's not just decorative I mean there's enough space yes there there's only three people in the family but the potential exists that they could use it for functional reasons what the intend it can be used for whatever doesn't matter but like I said it's it's a it's a it's a space that isn't she testified that it was decorative so I wanted to clarify that's that's a big space for decorations well either you do the whole garage or not you can't put half the roof on the garage and and but there is my question s perhaps my comment asking for a confirmation there is space that it could be used for a function rather than just deoration yes thank you uh possibly my client could be sworn in and you can make your case so quickly if it is for decorative purpose why do we need to go out on it it's just for decoration right why why why do you need to physically stand on top of I I think come on for S you in yeah whoever wants to talk is gonna have to get sworn in so everyone wants to talk we'll s you all in it's not problem tonight hearing the truth false truth nothing but the truth do you swear from the testimony you're about to give in tonight's hearing to be the truth the whole by the truth yes your name for Melly m i l l a e last name h u a n g your address your address address um 512 Wyoming Avenue Milbourne please proceed okay um actually the the deck itself is approved by zoning and the building what wasn't approv was a railing because we want to so we are required to have eight feet in for the railing so the deck itself is approved already what's non-conforming as it currently is your side or setbacks are non-conforming correct by putting a second floor by using the second floor to have habitation you have to be 22 feet off the side so you're not conforming currently you'd have to get a variance right but it's non-conforming it's non-conforming but now you're exacerbating the condition forgetting the railing because you have a roof up there now you're not going higher than that anyways it's not really it's not height it's setback well because that gives more natural light and um what gives more natural light the the flat roof the flat roof yeah it gives more natural light and um yeah and my daughter she she always wanted to you know that's what we she wanted to have one like a walk out balcony like and I think can make like aesthetically the railing even with the house it it looks better in design yeah okay anything further what use are you going to use it for um we not going to use it that much just for her to you know when maybe after some study she can take a fresh breeze on the balcony you know relax a little bit and that couldn't be done in the backyard outside or I mean right well I think like you know if they seeing you can see the sun sunset and you know it look looks good like um I don't know what's a better way to get better light for the natural light for for this room and this happened to be her room well I'm not the architect you hired the architect right there I'm sure there there's a way with her experience she find some light but the side of the roof show where the roof comes you have it dotted I think on this is this is where it comes now the most we'd be able to do is squeeze a small window here and a small window here this is the north side so by having this open you've got West window which is a lot nicer than north side window right now there's nothing there any questions for anything further no public I will start I've been driving by this house 24 years maybe six or seven times the way it exists now I have no problem with what you want to do there because what exists there now is an eyesore nothing personal please well they just bought I know the people you bought it from there were lovely people don't me wrong but I that box situation that's why I had wanted you to draw our attention to the fact that if you look at the dash lines where the garage is now you can't get Windows into that building there so that's going to open up the building there for light for that side as far as the deck usage if your daughter wants to sit out and watch my car drive by on light open roove at 6: in the morning 6 at night every night that's fine I don't see much of a draw to be there actually but that being said we do get great sunsets that far um but I've been looking at that garage there obviously I believe was an afterthought that was placed on that building and actually outside the 200 foot notice so I can talk about but um I think that the fact that you have a Tris situation there or railing that's going to give it a little bit of a character versus what if you look at Sheets your first sheet for pictures there it's pretty you adjust is how not not so good looking it is if you look at the front right elevation everybody it's it's a mess sorry it is it's not very attractive we're trying to make it actually I see what you're doing there and I think it's there's not much you can do I don't think you want to lose the garage obviously nobody does but I think there's something to this would I like to have it scale back of deck do I do I think we should should throw a party out there no I don't think you would anyway but that being said I think it's a big Improvement than what's there so thank you for your patience everyone so um my concern is is not with you know wanting to get more light and being able to put Windows into that room my concern is that we're going to have a big deck out there and as lovely as the Africans you know may be and as like well intentioned as they may be to not have parties out there not have big gatherings and barbecues and stuff out there we all know on the zoning board that the variance you know runs with the house so future owners you know could could you know use it for different purposes so you know I I would ideally love to see something where the applicants can get the light that they want and you know get get kind of the this this part fixed in the front without it you know being a big deck in the front of a house I just I don't see a reason for that I'm worried it's it's G to be detrimental to the neighborhood that's really you know what I what I worry about I Echo what you're saying I I would say the same that I think it's fine to have light and and a flat a low or flat roof on your garage if that helps with the light for the bedroom but I don't see why it needs to be a deck and and it does run with the land and and can't be controlled by you know even if your intention is we barely go on it you don't know what the next person's going to do and I don't see why it needs to be a um I will have to Echo what I heard so far from from this support the exclusion of J so I'm suffering with a Bruce I just don't see where any of the proofs have been met other than saying I want and it'd be cool to have and unfortunately those are not um those are not part of the negative or or positive criteria proving C2 variants so um you know I too also am very concerned about this deck and what it would do in subsequent years and I have a 16-year-old and weaponize that thing so um uh that being said I just I really I really suffer with uh you know how how it even complies this how would be beneficial to the zoning plan and master plan years come so yeah look I agree with those comments I think um it's unfortunate a way that garage is so front and center like if if there were parties or things happening out on that deck it's it's not you know it's not like it's happening in the backyard or the side yard or it's really front and center and I I just have to think there's some kind of solution from an architectural perspective that would get you more light in there um but wouldn't you know necessarily create a deck um but I don't I'm not an architect but it it seems like they're could be a solution to this that would um at least address that issue if might not solve the want uh for the deck um but as Craig says I'm not sure that really the criteria for for getting the barriers but I just think there there should be some kind of alternative that that could be developed any other I I agree with everyone except for Joe um I it does look it does look like it's okay but most of what he says brilant but anyway um it does look like the garage is just stuck and I did find the house right away because there's the tree line and it stops and you got front facing garage so while sympathize with the desire to have a balcony off of the room which would be really cool as a young girl I can totally see that um and I'm not an architect but perhaps a skylight is something you might think of to get aot lighted and maybe a balcony on the back but all I thought of is like oh my goodness that's going to be a big deck facing the neighbors and facing wide outage and people across the you were going to see that even if you're not party or somebody subsequent could be or maybe you will change into partyers at some point so I would not support this application as it stands so didn't for a second you've heard comments from the board members um do you want to talk to your your client about addressing the comments of the board members not necessarily tonight but maybe coming back with an alternate design um yeah why is it possible to carry this to next month not next meeting available is we'll see what that is quick um um probably the soonest I this is my okay one thing to well no not until May thing I'm going to say is the next application is going to need a lot of time this one yeah the one that's next tonight yeah so you trying to say we're not GNA get through it yeah that we still have to do a Clos session well it's fine a Clos session but do you don't want to start the last one I I know there's going to be a lot of questions can we can we make some comment uh not at this point no that you had your chance to do that so at this point you're not to come back with a revised plan that's what we're saying for coming back it is an old luy Express Lucky Express what else um gar bio on sagore that's one that's that's the uh playr thing yeah ws and then I have a new one 35 Milton and possibly one from white out I would put that that night those those two applications just between luck Express and the wall um April 15th I have just two applications on so can carry so you want carry both of them to April 15 yeah because I know there's going to be a lot of questions and it's we won't be out of here till 11 o'clock I mean do you care I'm I'm you know said pass the big bucks so you know we're here so fine no no no no so I said I'm hoping you you adjust this so we can move through well this will be quick for yeah this will be five minutes next meeting and then and then you'll have that so and then I'll have a decent amount of time to be able so like I said you know that's the balls your court on this one and then obviously we can address the the next application as fine and I am here April 6 my at six o' in the evening so I could back in the morning all right so April 15 so um for those um and for the viewer at home um calendar 39652 24 which is current 184 Le gridge Road along with calendar 3946 232 WI way those two will be carried till April 15 no further notice any other um changes will be on the website and listed at Town Hall so with that I will uh move to adjourn we do have a special session to follow so yeah can I have a motion toour motion right I have ation to go close session please a second all those in favor I'm not here for that right stay for close abolutely to and then we need a motion to adjourn can I have a motion to adjourn motion to adjourn all those in favor oppos have a good evening thank you so