just good evening ladies and gentlemen uh in accordance with Section Five of the open public media app chapter 231 Public Law 1975 be advised a notice of this meeting was made by posting on the Bolton board town hall and mailing to the officially designated newspapers list of the meeting dates annually indicating this meeting would take place at Town Hall at 7 pm on June 17 Joseph pfield here here Amy Warr here Gary Rosen here [Music] here here here so we have a couple minutes of memorializations to go through but I want to go over the agenda real quick uh and we'll go back just in case anyone needs to organize anything uh we're going juggle the uh agenda from what you see here okay agenda is up front here if anyone wants it uh first uh case read here tonight is calendar 39 8424 57 Factory Drive second case is going to be 28 farbrook Rock Drive calendar 39 924 then we're going to proceed to calendar 3994 uh 24 St Rose and then lastly we'll be hearing the P playhouse at 39 8724 okay so with that we'll move to approval of the minutes of 5624 and changes are correct if none can I have a motion motion approve and a second second all those in favor anyone opposed okay next up we move moralization two of them calendar 38722 um indriana and debjit vannerie at 100 Newbrook Road in Milburn uh um any corrections or changes to that moralization who's eligible on that eligible R Joseph sh Amy Gary Jessica Craig if no changes of Corrections can I have a motion to adopt that moralization move approval calendar 387 and a second second josephi yes yesr yes yes yes yes that that's memorialization that's actually extension right do you want to change that to Short Hills should we change it I mean it is RA Municipal Township but um okay and next up we have calendar 39 8524 Ross and Rachel cooperman 92 98 heart Sor Drive Short Hills uh any changes of Corrections moralization same group if they have a motion motion to approve calendar 3985 second you for the second second second Joseph yes yesy yes J GL yes yes first application 39842 24 you're on7 come on down so all you be speaking this evening sorry will you be speaking this evening yeah both of us at least are and then we have Scott who's our engineer and then we have Derek and then we have our neighbor as well okay so so at this point let's have a three of you SW yeah sure raise your right hand well speak raise your right hand please do you sarir testimon g tonight proceeding the TR yes yes your names for the record Scottland DS engineer Scott ly Ln DS engineer thank you please proceed sure uh this is regarding the pool that we want to construct um I just want to lay out the reason first of all why we want to have the pool at the house um so we are all in the family big water lovers everybody's big water body uh loves to swim uh even in plin vacations uh you know we are looking not for skiing but warm places where the kids can get into the pool and that's what they love to do so just putting it out there that you know there's a big love of water that's why we thought of adding a pool now to the house um secondly both the kids uh you know we have a daughter who's 13 year old our son is 19 year old they're both part of a swim team uh they both swim competitively and uh throughout the year uh our daughter is with Scarlet swim team so we thought it'll be a good addition and along with her swim team she'll have some place to do practice her skills as well as enjoy the pool um secondly our son now he's gone to college he's at NYU so he's very close so the proximity of him coming at the house um is you know he's lot more at the house and secondly uh sometime back he developed activity induced asthma which we learned from our doctor um was majorly because of the chlorine and the water so having a salt water pool at the house we thought you know again it'll help him or at least you know the love of water or the swim swimming that he's been doing so much for the years he can continue doing at the Home in a very safe and healthy environment um just wanted to put it out there yeah and and look I think end of the day um our daughter swims a lot and you know knock on the last thing you want to um see is chlorine kind of having an issue for her so we want the pool so that she can take the laps uh one thing I'll mention to the committee uh or a couple of things we did not come up with a plan just to for the sake of coming up with a plan like we we gave it a lot of thought we spent a lot of time trying to minimize as much as we can and some of the key drivers that we thought of were look um we needed at least some amount of pool where our kids can take a lab and do their flip turns and stuff like that so like if you see we have a 970 Square me uh feet pool which is the bare minimum we made it in a form of a l so that at least we can maximize the space that is available to us um the other thing I'll say is in order to get the pool in place um we have a wraparound uh uh deck around in our family room we have three sliding doors and all of them lead into that wraparound deck in order to reduce the the size of everything we are now going to go do away with the deck in front of one of the sliding doors so we have to convert it into a window so that at least we can reduce the space and we are not taking too much of like in impervious space um the the other thing I'll say is the way we have defined the deck and the patio space of the pool we have tried to uh do one over the other so that we are utilizing the dech and the uh and the patio space in a way that we are not like doubling it up like we are not creating redes we are trying to minimize the area where we can um now when you come and think about the pool patio space we have as I'm sure you guys are seeing it in your um in your in the maps um we are trying to reduce the size of the pool patio wherever we can we have to keep at least some space so that we can service the pool and you know we have family and friends who have young kids who come in you don't want the soil to be around the pool where people slip so we have just kept wherever minimum we can so that at least we are trying to be respectful of committee's time and the the rules and regulations of uh of of the township um and look I think I'm I'm sure Scott can go into like we have tried to create dry Wells so that we can at least um do the storm water management as well so that it is not impactful to our neighbors so I look I think end of the day this is our way of trying to find an optimal solution that works for the committee and works for us while we are able to provide our kids a little bit of um you know a leeway to ability to swim and enjoy their you know whatever time they have with us thank you 's up next add a little thank you Mr chairman members of the board why don't you provide your credentials yes Scotland I'm civil engineer in the state of New Jersey with 35 years experience although I have not appeared before this board in the past I have uh prepared uh appeared before many other boards in the state J and your license correct and license is still in good standing correct thanks your credentials are accepted by this SC please receed so I just to add a little bit of what Mr rogi and Mr rogi were saying the property is situated in the R5 Zone uh we do meet all the underlying bulk requirements of the R5 Zone with the exception of two uh act two parts of that which is why we're here tonight seeking two variants one variant is for the impervious coverage the other variance is for the maximum allowable accessory use for rear yard uh the ovious coverage for the for the property is 35% by the ordinance today there's about 30% coverage with their proposal it'll be about 38% equating to about 670 square feet with the variance for acccessory use uh allow 20% or 23.2% about 260 square ft over the acccessory use of the rear yard so how did we deal with the additional 660 square feet over what's permitted by the ordinance we do have a proposal for a dryw which is situated on the downside of the two Terrace walls uh we did do a soil analysis of that soil where that drywall is to be situated we had have worked done on it we have a K2 value certainly provides enough uh perk rate with a K2 to to accommodate that 600 and some odd square feet I'm assuming there would be an engineering review if we were to get approval and I'm sure your engineer will look into those calculations and design a little bit more um in support of the variance obviously there's no additional property that we can buy from any the adjoining property uh I think it's a good use for the property I'm not a planner I'm not testifying as a planner however uh with other pools in the area I don't think this is a detriment to any of the Neighbors at all uh I believe there is support neighbors to the right for this application and to the left I don't know if yes and again as they did mention we are eliminating about 330 square feet of the existing deck that would be this area which is cross-hatched so the remaining deck the existing deck today would be torn down and rebuilt uh I don't know if any of you had an opportunity to go out to see the property yet the deck is in bad shape I was afraid to walk on it myself no disrespect but uh it needs to be replaced uh as far as uh any other part of the application there's no modifications to the dwelling there's no modifications to any other part of the yard with the exception of reconstruct the existing rarro tie wall which is also in need of replacement so with that I any questions you may have what are you over in terms of exceeding um accessory Muse in the rear yard you're over by 20 by 3.2% what isre in terms of square feet about 270 square feet what in what one are you saying your 270 in the accessory use uh the 3 point some odd square feet about 660 square feet permitted is 35% we're at 38.2% so I'm sorry would you be able to put in a pool without getting any variances or would it be impossible to put a pool we we could we could certainly put a pool in I don't think that pool would meet the needs of the homeowner nor would we be able to provide a patio area around that pool that you know should be required uh for proper use of the pool yes I have a follow-up question that question which is if you're a swimmer which you guys talked about having kids are swi you need a 25 yard pool this pool is 31 by 37 so can you elaborate a little bit more on the point that was made for the question just before M I would prer that to can take that question stand up please yeah sorry about that yeah um I can take that question so we were trying to keep it to the bare minimum size that is doable like we were told like at least you can have 40 square feet or above kind of an area for people to be able to like do a decent thing we are trying to keep it minimum because we don't have space to be honest like I so I I hope that I don't know if that answer question I'm sorry the point I'm not quite understanding if the pool is well maybe there's something more to it the pool is for your kids to swim laps it's potentially longer than you need if there's a different reason you need a 25 yard right and sorry let me redo my math maybe I'm off no sorry my bad oh no I see your point okay I take it back yeah no no no worries but it's it's a valid question so you're that's the minimum size and why the L shape because we were trying to at least uh create some spot for to walk down and you know also use the pool for your pool is not big enough maybe trust me thinking of it the wrong way not be big enough for trust me you're hitting a nerve that I I'm fully aware of thank you though sorry sorry no no please valid question yes so I don't see where you met the criteria okay for certainly not C variant but even for for a for a C2 or C1 so um you have enormously oversized lot for an R5 in fact your lot would be oversized in an R4 so I'm struggling as to where number one this would be beneficial to the zoning plan or master plan to overdevelop an extremely oversiz lot in that particular zone so can you add a little color to that I beat on the bone yeah I certainly can I can I can try to at least uh so the the current configuration of the dwelling if you've been out there again it the back of the dwelling is a walk out basement type there are uh sliding doors that are around this portion of the dwelling so a deck is is needed right uh otherwise all of those sliding doors would have to be eliminated they are from the main living portion of the house so that that at least that portion of the deck is required um when you when you say the portions required is that the existing wood deck area that you're referring to correct that is being that is the current wood deck area which is here okay and you'll see it says proposed deck that is all being removed and replaced without any expansion It's actually an elimination of 33 Square fet which is on the left side of the house so we're actually removing some of the deck but putting back what was there today or what is there today so I'm not here to design your pool but as as Jess here sort of asked what can you do to make this closer to compliant because like I said looks like you're taking multiple bites of the Apple here you have a large line yes oversized lot yet somehow we're not even close to I you're G you're given more already because you have an oversized law right absolutely yes so you took that one yes you took that that I yeah that's why I'm struggling here from just from a proof standpoint I haven't heard compelling testimony as to why I would let the homeowner address that as as a yeah look I I appreciate your point that maybe our our lot size is bigger than the R5 Zone but that's our lot size and when you look at our lot size look at our building look at everything else if we need to put a pool and even have bare minimum for our kids to swim and make sure that we have the least amount of patio and make sure even after eliminating the deck we have some deck in front of our sliding doors this is what we came up with that's why we are asking for a variance if we didn't by the way trust me if we didn't need it I would not have wasted the committee's time like I I we as you can see like creating removing this deck and making a window here where we have a sliding door today um creating more impervious space adding drywall all these things are adding to my cost and is not helpful to my family room which I could have opened up the sliding door and sat outside so I'm I'm trying to match it I appreciate that yes my Lots size is higher yes I ended up paying higher value for that higher lot size I get it but like I'm when I'm trying to meet your demands or your or not your demands I should say rephrase it your um your rules and regulations and trying to meet my requirements um this is the best optimized solution I got to right like I I didn't come here saying I should keep my deck in place and ask for a bigger pool and let's see what we can do here like I I didn't want to waste your time and to be honest I didn't want to waste my time because like you know time with kids is precious and I want to make sure like they get to enjoy the pool sooner rather than later again it may not be a compelling argument it just it's in our minds and like you know sometimes we may be thinking differently than the committee Reas because I'm also a lot of personal do you want before I answer last question you want yeah yes I do thank you so again the the the permitted impervious coverage is 35% currently uh the property is just over 30% if we were to uh abide by the ordinance of 35% that would only allow about, 1300 square feet before between what's there today and to meet the allowable of 30 35% that 1300 Square feet they could not build the deck build the pool and quite frankly any patio um or it would be very minimal that it probably wouldn't be worth worth doing um that's not answering the question but it's offering more information that uh you might find helpful um because this is an oversized law typically what an applicant would do is come in and present proofs for what's called see two varant that you're aware of that even as an engineer right and you're also aware that personal circumstances are not to be taken into consideration by a board in assessing positive criteria for the relief that's being s certain here so are you able to articulate for the board reasons why this is a better zoning alternative for the property being in the R5 Zone potentially as I mentioned before I think that the the use of the property is consistent with other properties with in that R5 Zone but we're not here for the use I mean the accessory use accessory use yeah but the question have you looked at um the lots that have pools what is their impervious coverage what is their accessory rear coverage all right so as we know the minimum lot area within the R5 zone is 14,500 this this sloted being at just over 20,000 square feet is is average uh it's not on the largest side of the R5 it's certainly not on the smaller side of the R5 um again did I look at exact numbers for other properties with in the area no I did not um did I look briefly at other properties within the R5 oh there's one with the pool there's one Patio Pool Patio so on and so forth sort of just doing a a rough idea of of if this was even possible originally when they when they came to me and and uh Mr bardone the pool was much larger much larger much much more patio so on and so forth and we we Mr bardone who's the con contractor both both two the owners have said this is ridiculous we're way over as it is let's reduce the size down what is the minimum size of the pool that you could uh live with to answer your question I know that sort of was a roundabout answer to the question um a brief look at the other properties the max the smallest being in the largest size of the properties somewhere in the middle again uh I don't think that this was a detriment to the R5 Zone with the use that we're proposing tonight I'm just concerned because it's an oversized lot and between impervious coverage and the accessory um use in M yard we're talking about you know around a thousand square feet over um you know we have applicants who come before the board who literally can't put in a pool without aarian here you could put in a pool I mean it might not be the exact size you might not be able to get you know as much surrounding patio but it's an oversized lot so I just I mean I think it would be helpful to hear from other board members but that's kind of my concern just not I'm not not seeing any you know argument here that kind of meets the criteria for you know us being able to Grant a variance let me jump to the public um any questions from the board for professional here so so how how deep is the deck so from from where the deck the decking is to the actual uh coping Edge it's about 12 feet that's 12 feet of decking corre comes the width the width is well so it would be from the house out probably 40 ft so that's about 480t or 500 ft of De the one that you're proposing to make without taking into account the one that is going to be taken out correct and in terms of the full size we're talking about uh just 31 by 37 plus the pat area so that's another about 1200 well it's actually 970 sare ft is the actual water surface area taking out the L shape in this corner here and that does include the spot so the 31 by 37 does or does not include this spot it does that's total total water surface area any other questions I just have a housekeeping matter for um I know that notice was put out to the neighbors 200 do you know if any of those notices were returned by the department rece what they do with that yeah thank you any other questions from the board any questions for the public regarding this matter question for for any of the witnesses who have testified this evening any comments audience lete go forward s you win raise your right hand please you swear from the testimony about the given tonight's proceeding be the truth whole truth about the truth yes your name and address for the Marne Cohen Marne m r n i Cohen 45 can Brook Road and Short Hills where's where's your house religion to the property it's it's two houses away and across one street okay so it's on yeah like the end of that go yeah so it's two houses away thank you um no I've been speaking with them you um for a long time with this I know that they've had this in mind and I know they're p smaller than what yeah I think a 20 x 40 is kind of like the standard backyard pool to my knowledge and I'm you know not I'm not an expert at all but I'm here and I want to you know explain how I see that this could be supported and I feel like they've really made the pool even to um Miss Lawrence's comment that it's almost not big enough for what they may need that they've really thought about the size and protecting what they can with the property the neighbors the value Etc and the variances of course and um they did not do this lightly and I feel like they're making the bare minimum that they can do as far as the size of the pool to accommodate you know what they can thank you any other comments from the audience regard this application in that case I will close the public portion of this application board members your thoughts and just keep in mind this is a majority vote and um I believe that given the fact that it is an undersized lot um that Prim oversized excuse me undersiz oversized lot um that you would uh I recommend primarily be considering the criteria for for C2 variants but of course you're free to consider um the existing structures preventing an opportunity uh to conform words if you so choose look I mean I think consistent with what some of my colleagues have said I'm I mean I'm very sympathetic to what the applicants want I'd like them to be able to do what they want to do but um I think it's not really our job to to deliver that it's more to make sure that whatever is being proposed to be built is consistent with um our our our ordinances and so I just I just don't see how the proofs have been met here um and um and I understand the need the applicants need or desire to have a pool that works for their personal needs but um a pool could be built um on the property that um you know would um would be compliant and and I think building a pool of this size and a deck of this size on an oversized property is troubling to me and I'm just I just don't see how the proofs have been that I agree with everything that you said and and I I am sympathetic but um and I know it's not our role to talk about the use but it's actually too small to be a lab pool anyhow um and that aside um yeah I I I completely agree with what you said that you know that I don't see how the proops have been met I don't see you know the need for the pool of this size when you could build a pool and so don't have the the impression that we're here not too Grant variance Rel that is not the case but when it comes to a C2 variance in this case um there has to be like I said some compelling testimony as to why we need to go substantially above our coverages in terms of rep perus and accessory uh coverages when we have a lot that as mentioned is not only large for an R5 but we considered oversiz in our four and I do not feel uh that that uh argument has been frankly addressed or even um remotely dealt with so I would not support this application as present just my thoughts here uh clearly sympathetic to your needs so you know your kids and the family that you want kind of utilize this um I also you know I'm aware that that is a you know an area which is sort of slope and you're kind of addressing some of the concerns that are that come up with this in terms of building the you know the dryw ETC uh I I think those are good things those are clearly positive uh just from a size perspective I think it does look you know I I don't have much to add here from from what I'm hearing there is clearly positives here that you have outline uh uh whether kind of outweighs in terms of the numbers that you're up by and the VAR has for U you know it's just you know Essen you heard heard the so um here's what we'll do um public portion is Clos so there's no but I will offer you this um if You' like to carry this case and maybe think about the comments you heard this evening and come back again uh we off off that to you or you can take a vote so I just stand please come forward okay um look I appreciate uh what you're saying um my personal need aside I I respect what you guys are thinking about um so we'll we not ask for a vote uh let us think about it and here's what we're going to do we're going get another date for you okay um to put on the calendar so we'll see what um has for you let us come back to you we we may have to reassess okay a lot of things um are you sure though because you give a notice okay if you do not exercise a date now okay even as a placeholder can I come back tomorrow at least or take the date you can always push if you have to oh okay got a date out a little bit correct yes um 19th or September 16th September 16th September 16th does that work for you guys I guess it [Laughter] does 16th was great September 16th looks like the winner okay you guys good with that yeah okay thank you uh for everyone in the audience that's here on this matter and those while you get home uh calendar 39424 will be carried September 16th no further notice any changes that are made to these plans will be on the website or available at Town Hall next up we have calendar 3994 thank you from 6324 thank you're gonna testify why not why not pro the truth yes your names to the record Scott I'm sorry Scott Samantha Le John barello sorry John barello B a r a n e l l o Richard Keller k e l l e r okay who would like to yes okay who like to start I'll start um good evening my name is Samantha lvin um this is my husband Scott we live at 28 farbrook drive we have three boys ages 11 nine and five we have lived in this house for six years um almost to the day and this is our first house um that we ever purchased and our first house in Short Hills ever since we moved into the house we um had desires to redo the backyard um we love the interior of the house but the outside is challenging just based um mainly on the slope of the yard it slopes down significantly and we have desired to put in a pool um and um but as I said the grade of the yard is is quite challenging um it makes it very difficult to play to have a catch um my mother-in-law has even fallen on a couple occasions um when taking when watching the children and kind of tumbling down the the hill because it is so steep um so we are excited about the design and the plans that John barello um and Rich Keller have helped us with um we are able to put the pool in um without any sort of variance um we've met the um lot coverage and all that it's just um steep slope that we would like to be a ble to cut into more so that we can create um a good flow between our our driveway and our deck above and then um what we're planning to do down below so I'll pass it over to Rich Keller to talk you through um why we are applying for this variant thank you thank you your credentials Please Mr Keller I'm a licensed engineer and planner in the state of New Jersey licensed as an engineer in 1989 planner in 1990 I have a Bachelor of Science in civil engineering with a declared concentration of water resources and environmental engineering from RoR University I also hold a masters in architecture from New Jersey Institute of Technology with the concentration of urban planning and design I have appeared before this board approximately 110 boards throughout the state of New Jersey both as a planner and an engineer I provided Engineering Services to the uh burrow to the township of L Hill for three years as their board engineer and I was also the ad hoc um planner for the burough of calwell for a number of years um my licenses are in good effect since I'm my last appearance thank you your accept please rece thank you the uh I'll start with the uh the drawing that you have before you which is the uh the variance application I'm sorry you're testifying both as a planer as an that's correct the uh the property itself is 132 feet wide by 56 ft deep it is a somewhat a regular tral shape with a wing on the back end of it it's located approximately uh 50 ft um south from Great Hills Terrace long farbrook on the uh on the west side right across where Hampshire road ties in the Terminus of Hampshire in his barbar the um the property is 22849 square feet uh in an R4 zone so it is a conforming um in terms of lot area as well as all the V bulk dimensions are fully conforming um with regard to the property itself I'm going to go to an A1 which is the base survey it's not prepared by my firm but we did do the Steep tilt analysis so this would be A1 dated 617 20124 uh there graphic survey by others um and what we've done is we took um the Steep so inventory which we did and we superimposed on it in the blue dash line that's the areas that we're proposing to disturb so of the um of the property um it contains about four total green spaced green highlighted are areas that's the steep slopes those are areas in excess of 20% per our ordinance uh definition property contains 4518 square feet of steep slopes um again that's that's about 20% of the property is about 20% pitch the steep slopes um uh as is if you if you've gone to the site and had a chance to walk into the back you can see there's a fair amount of distance between a um a grade change between between far Brook um and you go through to westf which is the property the street behind us and if you draw a straight line from the center of harbrook down to uh down to West View um the properties are about 12 and a half 13% but what happened as it's typical when this was developed in the early 60s they cut in Farber Road they pushed a large um building enel envelope and they push slopes in the back and creating a series of steep slopes that are steeper than were there originally um and then I think that um up and down we're sort of the last property to be putting retaining walls because properties surrounding us up and down farra have all done a series of retaining WS to get pools in uh probably judging by the uh uh look of the pools and pool decks they predate are certainly predate are current maybe the last two iterations of our steep slope ordinates um so we're sort of one of the last ones to be developed here these uh what what is interesting and I'll show this through a two um you'll see the significant amount there's a big swap of seep sils directly behind the driveway um before you go to before you go to A2 I think you mentioned that there's a blue line or something on any one yeah they it's hard to to see someone up here to see there's a blue dash line we set within the green uh sort of pastel area and those are the areas that on the grading plan we're proposing to disturb so the green represents the total inventory of SL inex 20% and the dash lines um represent the limits of of where we're looking to disturb so our total variance request here is that we'd like to disturb uh 275 square feet where 1,000 square feet is permitted so we'd be over by 175 is it 2705 or 2750 uh 2705 question is the dotted line essentially covering 1700 yeah the do the dotted line there represents 1700 and five square feet so if I go to my A2 jump back to elevations on there yeah what are you what are you going to wind up with what you started with ter of elevation well um essentially I I can actually I think the pictures kind of show what we're doing on the site right so we're we're basically taking about the about the middle the the area that's not steep slope the little sort of semi flat player they have that runs long here we're using that as a baseline we're kind of holding that dropping the pool in we're taking the existing patio we're actually lowering it about one 1 foot n Ines so we can get that down lower and we're covering that which it'll be part of the building coverage and'll be fully conforming I'll go over to the uh the grading plan plan you have for you so we are lowering that uh ter and then we are putting the pool in and I would point out that if we were to just do the pool and the retaining walls and the covered Terrace and and not do any of the grading that connects from the driveway which it's going to get to in a second or push back a little to get a slightly steeper area we could do the pool and the covered patio with less than a th sare feet of steep slope distur ex a pad sort of there where the pool's going exist yeah it's already we're going to use that natural we need to push back a little bit we're doing a small smaller than usual pool 18 by 36 18 by 38 so we cut it down from the usual 20 by 4 um and then because there is a when they push the Steep area there's a steep portion that U extends um up towards the pool so we need a couple of retaining WS to mitigate them but essentially we're looking to put that pool right on the existing Plateau just to extend it out but looks natural and then what what really has been a problem is that there's no real good connection we go back to the one for a second right now there's a deck off the first floor it's so it's a walk out basement in the back where the patio is you come so if you come off the uh the driveway and you're visiting in the rear yard you can walk up and it's not too steep up into the wood deck if you're looking to go from the wood deck down to the outdoor patio which will be covered you have to walk down the steps and then you have to Traverse part of that steep slopes or when you have guests that come um and they want to get from the driveway to the patio if you're entertaining they have to walk across the section or when Grandma is uh is looking to go down in to be with the kids in the flat area they need to see some Travers steep slope area so we're looking at creating a series of walls in there so that we can create a flat zone that will get us from the driveway to both the deck stairs up to the deck and or with some stairs an access to the patio so that was shown on our plan where we're looking to create a flat area some steps down and then we'll create a flat area that we can then with some stairs up to we'll reorient the stairs on the deck go up to the deck or continue out of the patio so it creates a whole safe zone so this area right in here um is really done for the purposes of creating an accessible walkway and connection uh without having to walk across steep slope lawn from the deck and from the driveway to the covered Terrace and ultimately to the pool area again just to uh if you've obviously been to the site but this is photo board number one designated as A2 dated today 617 2024 all photos were taken by me this last Friday about 1 in the afternoon uh they accurately represent the site everything since today barbar looking from the street um you can see by the uh the tennis court I mean the the basketball you can see it starts to drop up right behind there none of this will be visible from the street if I come into photograph number two you can see this is the area where if you come down the stairs where you want to get from the driveway down to there you cross a section that starts to Dish and bowl and it becomes steeper than than 20% to about 30% as you navigate across that portion photograph number four as we came into the backyard we look to the right uh at 24 you can see a retaining wall a second retaining wall so these yards have been Terrace um looking to the rear yard the property behind us has been tered um this uh there's a fence that's back there that's more than 27 feet away from where the proposed walls are so really we're we're keeping the uh all of the setbacks for the pool the walls the disturbance um that's all meets the setbacks required in the zone I also took a picture to the left you see uh a Terrace down to an intermediate level down to a pool area and there's a large retaining wall at the back of that uh the back of those uh the landscaped area and then finally I stood a patio which is going to come down uh 21 in uh yeah 21 inches we're going to drop that down uh take a couple steps out so we can get that closer to the level of where we want to put the pool again the pool sort of sitting right in that zone the natural Zone that's right there we're just looking to Terrace down to it and put a little terracing on that back corner this back corner try to keep it up um we're not changing any existing drainage patterns across the across the neighbor's yard the um as indicated um the we could do the pool with without a steep slope variance we'd have about 826 to 850 feet of steep slope disturbance um when we provide the flatter rear yard area so we push back a little just to get a little bigger play space in that area it adds about 475 square feet to that and then when we look to create that safer transition that's that middle Zone where we're coming off the driveway uh con connecting uh a spine of circulation that's perly flat W steps but but navigable um that drives up another 144 sare feet so our total is 2705 where 1,000 sare fet is permitted so we need uh relief from the SE slap section 68.5 disturbance of steep slopes th000 square feet is permitted we're looking at 2705 so we're asking to exceed what's permitted by 1750 and I we point out um this is uh this is all none of this is natural steep slopes um 68.7 point I separation of retaining walls 6 feet is required for six foot high walls 3T is proposed I would say by the way I will have to mark this into evidence because I did make the change today a make this so one of the things we do is is I did take a look so A3 is the uh variance application plan it's va1 before you it has a revision it's a original date in 4:15 2024 and we revised it grading revised lower 617 2024 um two things um are different from the planning if you have for you we took off the pool equipment we realized we had migrated into an area that didn't that didn't comply so we took the pool equipment off it'll be put into a conforming location either tucked into the house or under the deck uh fully compliant with the setback requirements and when we did lower the pool based upon a little clarification with the landscape architect um we were able to cut the wall Heights down so the highest wall in the back is about 5 and 1 12 ft now instead of six feet and most of the walls have been lowered about 9 in throughout the property um in terms of the separation of retaining walls six feet is required for six foot high walls we've got three feet proposed those walls are dropping down to about five and a quarter to five and a half uh we're still looking to do three- foot proposed um and again I I think we've had um letters in the past from the township engineer talking about the purpose of that separation act separation requirement is to make sure that walls are designed so the construct to walls need to be carefully designed because they will start to structurally interact when they're less than that distance well clearly we can design walls that are less than that so they'll be designed appropriately and safely uh the variance proofs we see this as a combination of C1 and C2 where the existing man-made topography and its location on the site creates a hardship and redeveloping the existing property in a manner that is consistent with the existing neighborhood uh without the need for variance relief and the C2 where the purposes of the land use act are Advanced and the benefits outweigh the detriment we see that the uh safey is Advanced we're creating a more safe uh and navigable access both from the uh second floor deck down to the Terrace without having to go through the house and also from the driveway into the backyard into the uh to the entertainment spaces on the property again without having people slip down the down down the uh down the grave so we think that uh at least one of the purposes of the land use Act is advanced with regard to the negative criteria we see no substantial detriment of the public good and no substantial impairment to the attent and purpose of the zoning plan and zoning ordinance um mitigating any impacts is that it's not visible from the street what we're doing um we also do have a I won't I won't make Mr barell with his voice testify um but if we have our a four which is a landscape plan prepared uh by Mr gella's firm open Grove 11 residents uh it is undated so we'll just date it today and you can see some of the configuration has changed a little bit with the walls but the overall overriding idea is that we will be taking the back Woodlands will remain and we will place a combination of Norway spruce Leland Cyprus and green Giants along the perimeter uh those plants Landscaping between the walls and more importantly along the perimeter so it's really as much for our privacy is anything else but that'll supplement and there a generous landscape plan to buffer between both on top of the walls and below the walls uh so it's really an opportunity to uh to provide additional Landscaping to buffer the heavy Woods that are remaining in the back corner of the property so certainly we don't see any negatives we see only positives as an improvement to the Aesthetics of the neighborhood um the retaining Halls will be designed structurally um and I would say actually pools are actually interesting because pools weigh water weighs less than concrete so pools actually provide less structural interaction on walls uh when you Nest them so but they'll be designed accordingly I won't go through all the background of purposes of of why we have a steep slope ordinance in the background um I've done it before um but I would say that we don't cut across any of those purposes um flattening area um slows water down um there are no water bodies downhill from us to affect um there will be no loss of soil we'll provide will be provided be required a Soil Conservation District uh permit and be it'll be enforced um there's no changes in the natural topography and drainage pattern in our opinion this part is not natural and the drainage patterns will be exactly as they were we will we will add we' noted a place in the drawing for drywells um which roof water will be connected into we will require to get a grading permit uh the property is not forested um we will be of course be require to provide a tree replacement plan with much more detail um to the O open Grove plan we've see before you um we think that the uh there's no compromise aesthetic values we think that water quality would be unaffected um there'll be no increase in runoff uh we know how to build in steep slopes is a relatively modest plan we're trying to work as as Mr pler indicated we're trying to really work with the natural grave cut grave cut in on the one area on the uphill side to create a natural um circulation path and just fill a little bit on the right to create an area for the pool so we think that is uh we think it meets the the proofs and support of the variances for C1 and to and I'm happy to answer any questions so looking at the neighbor to the rear the rather unique materials they used for their retaining wall they're lovely aren't they wow the hooks are on the distill which is kind of nice moov what are you guys using for um from zero it'll be a it'll be a much smaller more traditional modular block um uh Keystone type retaining one appreciate it yeah it will not be jumbo blocks i' I've never used one of those yet and you can guarantee I never will this backyard exensive use they're pretty bad any other questions rich on your A3 you changed the pool um you had what we're looking at is 3598 at your elevation yeah I dropped that I drop that down to 35833 so that since the bottom of the wall the lower wall at that point is going to be 350 so you're looking at an 8 foot difference eight and a half yeah so at the lowest point my wall is 350 well it's going yeah 350. right so yeah you're talking about um about just under seven just about seven seven feet in change in total but again that's pretty heavily wooded through there so I don't think and actually what's interesting is the grade comes back up so if you look um there's a low point that comes through here and the grade starts to come back up as you come to the next fence so our wall is 27 ft off of that closest fence and between the existing Landscaping which will remain unaffected um yeah we do have a wall it gets to be um in the newer configuration get to be 5 and a/4 ft High um but it that does meet code um and so I think in that location the fact that we're also going to be adding in uh land base Foundation Landscaping I think it'll be you will not be able to see it especially since once you come over that rise these properties as was shown in the photograph these properties drop under the 30 feet or so so when they're below that I don't know that they even see these walls so just for clarity your first wall is how high now first wall the wall around the pool we tried to keep it two feet or less right and then the next wall down is what it ranges from uh now one and A2 fet up to five and a quarter three and a quarter at the corner and then back to zero which just follow as that land undulates down we had to drop it we we tried to keep everything at 4 feet but that we're about 20t 15 ft in here we got over the four on your site plan the VAR plan it looks like there's a sewer easement that runs from Princeton Terrace down to your property yes is uh any of the proposed disturbance or construction activities going to be impacted I did add that in to another change on this plan here um we saw the the eement adjacent there is a um there on the base survey we were given there was a we're talking about A3 I'm sorry I'm on to I'm on to my A3 yeah okay so I've added that manhole in that is the start of the line so our our we have a line that comes out of the corner of the house and ties over to that it comes around the pool if we need to either adjust the pool by sliding in a couple feet or we need to modify that line to get in there but the but the easement does not continue across the property that's the start of the sanitary for our subject property to TI into any other questions any questions from the audience regarding the testimony you've heard this evening any comments from the audience regarding this application I'll close public portion board members your thoughts um I think one thing that stood out to me was that um these steep slopes are manmade they're not naturally occurring um I think that there's a clear hardship here with the way that the backyard um is currently configured with these um steep slopes so um I can support the application yeah I agree I think um there is clearly a hardship um seems to be the proofs have been been established um I think it's probably beneficial to the property to make it safer and more usable um we appreciate that the size of the pool is has been reduced um and I support so nothing I'm think of the steep slope ordinance and if I was to rewrite it um what would make sense where I think a thousand is probably too much in an R six I'm not sure what would be in R4 it's probably not 10% but you know what is it so or a thousand I think is definitely so you know it really just depends on topography and you know I think this makes a usable backyard at the same time it really doesn't impact neighbors I think that's one of the things that concerns me most with steep s applications is what it does to the surrounding properties um you don't want to create a wall City for your neighbors where I don't think this will do that um so I think that uh I would I would I I'll jump in likewise I think the way you've Incorporated the different plateaus if you will the different rolling grades we working with here I think it tell Tru it's really really good um I would be inclined to support as well was nicely done do I have a motion a second I can second Joseph Coffield yes Shandra har yes Amy yes Gary Rosen yes yes yes yes good luck with thank really appreciate have a good night yeah absolutely we take a two minute break folks five e e e e e so let the rec show that mfield case and so you have we have seven floor is yours sir hey thank you chairman members of the board Richard scholnick on behalf of AMG solar Amy is the vendor and the installer of the solar panel that are proposed tonight I have with me Joshua cudre from the sils commas firm he's going to be representing the church and the church's interest in tonight's application we're here for conditional use approval and conditional use variances to install a carport with solar panels and the church's parking lot you're all familiar with the facility it's identified as block 1712 Lot 23 on the tax maps with an address of 50 and 50 two Short Hills Avenue houses of worship are conditional uses in the r six Zone Mr lonza will'll go over the relief but we have four Witnesses all very brief uh we have father Larry from the church who's going to briefly discuss why the church wants this solar installation and Mr cudr is GNA handle that aspect we have Joey Tatar from solar mounts LLC that's the entity that constructs the carport itself he's operations manager Frank too is the chief commercial officer of Amy they handle the solar part of the structure uh this is unique in a certain way in that the municipal land use law itself in section four sets forth that solar energy is an inherently beneficial use Mr Lon of f will go over that but the short story is that the mlu well the municipal land use law has picked out just a very few uses and specifically identify them as inherently beneficial and solar is one of them and that means that this use is deemed to universally be considered a value to the community because it fundamentally serves the public good and promotes the general welfare so we have the state legislature telling us that this use universally is considered a value to the community and it fundamentally serves the public good and promot otes the general welfare so we start I think at least with a little leg up in terms of certainly other commercial uses this context is a little different because it's a conditional use but we'll talk about that a little bit so with that I'm going to turn it over chairman to Mr cudr thank you for the introduction Mr scholing for the record Joshua kudre k o d r a y appear from the law firm of ss comus and gross on behalf of St Rose Lima Catholic Church just want to thank everybody for their time and consideration this evening on behalf of our client um I do have father Larry Evans here um I know Mr schol is going to be handling handling the technical aspects of the application explaining you know why the the the structure cited where it is ETC with the Solar Company and their representatives but I just wanted the board to hear from the church's perspective why the proposal is important so if I could just please call Father sure sir yes sir do you do you from testimony you give the truth about the truth do just your name for the record please Larry Evans second Larry Evans the second the second yes sirk you dispell your last name please evns thank you so um hold on let's just do a couple really quick I know you want to jump into it very eager it's first time testifying before board um I just want to remind you I know public speaking is your thing you're very very familiar with it um but we do have a court reporter so just do your best to try to speak into the mic micrphone and speak slowly okay so um father Evans you're the pastor at St Rose Al Lima correct yes I am okay and how long have you been the pastor of the church I am completing two years July 1 I start my third year and you've been in service in the ministry for over 35 years correct that is correct and you've served a variety of positions throughout that time I have came here for as a pastor in a previous parish and served in another parishes in new Arch dasis okay so as pastor at St Rose of Lima can you just briefly describe your role duties and responsibilities for all practical purposes I'm the CEO CFO coo I have complete and authorized say about what happens there anything that I don't have say about would go before the uh Archbishop of nework cardinal to and you can confirm that you executed the application documents that were submitted this evening on behalf of the church right yes I did you're duly authorized to do so absolutely fantastic um you're generally familiar with the application materials that were submitted and that are before the board this evening oh yes okay and um you heard me say it and we'll get right to the point father why is this application important to the church part of my responsibility when I came here is as populations change and demographics change is to find ways to first of all be environmentally friendly but also to reduce our expenditure we cannot continue to rely on people coming to church to dig their hands in their pockets when there is a way that we can help reduce our psng bills to help continue the mission of the church in serving the Milburn Short Hills area and as you mentioned the stewardship component of it it's obviously as Mr scholnick alluded to and you'll hear more testimony about it but if we're able to help serve the environment be a better neighbor absolutely it's a good component correct as far as I'm concerned it is I could I just say please in my last assignment we had already started exploring this the company there went out of business but I came here I wanted to continue to explore it because I do find it very beneficial so it's not just this area it's beneficial all over promise we would be brief so quick question um judgeing by the pictures and you may correct me if I'm wrong um looks like there's existing solar now correct or is that there is no so where the pictures in terms of the carport on the right side over there above on the school yeah oh on the school yes there are solar panels okay we just put those in this past year on top of the school okay and so this this array is the only additional solar you're putting on the facility or yes there's the panels on the school subsidizes the school the array would subsidize the church and directory the church and the school are biggest consumers of electricity is it all under your purview the entire School the entire property is under my purview anything St Ros Short Hills is my perview thank you yes sir question so um is this is this project going to um cover what percent of of your electricity needs to the church and the recor do you know I I don't believe he I think some of the experts from energy can cover that that's fine but you're not you're not selling it you're not putting it in sell can for the property's use itself it's it's not allowed to be sold okay and um you do you know whether you're proposing any lighting under canopy is that for another there is lighting but let's defer that to the other witness if you don't mind actually one question sure um why do you know why this area was chosen as opposed to other parking areas on the C if you know oh I think he does know but I I would like I don't want to get in front of the testimony Mr go ahead very protective I apologize okay go ahead that's all I add on Direct so thank you okay thank you thank you chairman you want to open to the public or we'll do that after everybody yeah we'll do that that's that's fine so we're gonna call Joey to Tay uh he doesn't have the answers to those three questions but the next witness will and he's just going to be five minutes himself so we're gonna hand this out the Markus is A1 Joey you come on up we have a handout which is one two three four five six seven pages Joey we're g to get you sworn in just raise your right hand please you swear from Tes the Truth Truth by the truth I do your name for the record spelling your name please Joey and it's Tatar Tatar I'm sorry you got it right the first t a t a r okay and what's your position with solar mounts operations manager and what's their role in in this project so we are a designer and manufacturer of the racking system itself um and then we also are the mechanical installers so we do the foundation work the steel erection um we put the solar modules on top of the structure itself and then leave it to the electrician expert at AMG to come in and and finish the job and uh your company has done a bunch of projects in Jersey yeah yep so we've done about 11 megawatts total of these structures um in in New Jersey um we've done over 16 megawatt of total solar projects in New Jersey okay and that that's quite a bit of power yeah I think this one's 110 kilowatts so okay on the third page of the exhibit I handed out and marked as A1 you list some of the municipalities have' worked in yep okay and you prepared this exhibit uh in conjunction with me to get ready for tonight that is correct yes okay and uh just a couple issues uh wind load that's a code issue really yeah do the calculations they've been submitted actually correct that is correct yep so we do a 7-16 um for this area risk category 2 which I believe came out to 114 mile per hour windload and 25 psf snow okay and those materials have actually been submitted and approved by building department here in Milburn correct okay operationally any issues with snow or snow plowing no not at all nope so it actually mitigates some of the snow plowing needed in in parking lots okay uh from uh your standpoint any impact on parking or traffic circulation no h we're looking for a minor height variance as we've discussed and we've talked about uh can you tell the board why from your perspective you think it makes sense to have the approximate two and a half extra Fe you asking the question you should just lay the foundation for the board as to what this variance is deviations sure so uh there is a variance as listed in the notice for height of an accessory structure 18 feet permitted Mr Lon ofama will give the exact height but the ultimate height is 20.7 feet 20.7 I think is 20 feet 8 inches so we are seeking a deviation from height of accessory structure the wind load calculations they were on page one two three they were on the fourth page Joey okay um Mr tatara you you prepared A1 yourself that is correct okay thank from your standpoint as the Constructor and your experience operationally why do you think it makes sense to have the EXT approximate 2.5 yeah so the main one um being fire lane access for fire trucks to get through um having that 14ot clear height with the Tilt ending up you know just above 20 um so that that's the main reason um so we've also you know installed other folks racking before and they claim that um you know oh we only need eight or 9 ft here trucks never come in here dumb trucks never come in here but what happens at 2 in the morning right um so we've been to many different sites where a garbage truck pulls in turns around and and hits the system and then we're there to repair it um same same thing with the semi- TR I mean it's it's just hard telling what goes on there when when no one's looking um so you know we pride ourselves and always overdesigning all of our systems from the wind and snow loads up to you know thinking all of the these things through so what's the height that you want to get on the under Carriage so the the minimum uh low height clearance is 146 okay and that yeah 146 that produces the overall height because you have the the wingspan so to speak on this proposed carport correct okay um from your perspective uh some benefits to the cars that will park underneath yeah yes we have one at at our shop in Michigan and it's wonderful parking there in the summer um you know you don't have the sun beating on it all day when it's snowing um you know you come out your car and you don't have to clean off a bunch of snow um and then also you know you don't get as wet if you're you know getting to the backseat to grab your umbrella you got a little extra coverage in that meantime okay Joey thank you it's your first time testifying right originally your boss was going to be here but he entrusted you to come and handle the corre handle the teston tonight so thank you yeah thank you guys so real quick um the we pearlins were designed to go into a center trust system and then you have a gutter in there is that correct um I'm not sure on this system but on on some of them yes so then I guess let me then I'll ask a broader question um how when things melt or rain falls on it how does it drain so it's not a total coverage right it's not a sealed system so um you know it does kind of still leak water through and on the bottom edges of the panels um so it doesn't you know put a giant Rush of water down into one spot of the parking lot per se um so that that's kind of without a gutter system we look at there so like for the direction for for your for your um drawings it shows a gutter system either I got to answer questions to some else yeah Frank may be able to help us out there's no gutter system okay so you show gutters on your drawings so we we show those all as as optional on all of our drawings okay so then I actually very little exposure of these things so probably more questions than I should but uh so being this area freezes and then thaws and so on and so forth now you have a covered area which is get minimal Sun obviously because you're absorbing it through solar panels and then you have water that drips underneath has do not turned into an ice ska underne that with no with no proper gutter or water uh mitigation how does it not turn nice G you want to you try to if you can answer it do your best um to to do my best to answer it uh from our experience um you know there there is you know some warmth from the panels in the Sun that keep that warm um but also salt um on the ground just as if there wasn't any cboard structure there there'd be snow that melts there and it's it's turned into ice anyway so just so right but typically the sun itself would Aid in melting that and and right without the sun right so it's not totally sealed so there's still Sun there and I you know I believe they're bifacial panels so sun does still get through those it's not a total seal um it's more this picture here very section Prett I obviously you hav these things in Michigan right but also this this looks like it has a gutter system on it that one does that is correct that is in uh just that is in New York Westchester right so they have a central gutter system where all the snow and ice would melt into rain in this case and and this one also has the not not to interrupt but still has the point4 inch Gap in between all of the mods right yeah I mean obviously that can be covered by snow and the snow melts underneath so um okay um so who chose the spot for to install these how was that determined it was not myself defer anyone we're gonna our next witness we'll talk about we'll talk about alternate spots also okay that's fine uh any questions from the board for this for this witness I have a question um are is are all designs I mean forgetting the the gutter system and like those options that you can put on aesthetically are all the designs exactly the same same it's like do they all have the same exact look is you know are they all I don't know more like industrial looking or are there any options you know for for aesthetic wise yeah um throughout the industry yes um we believe that this is more aesthetically pleasing personally that's that's a preference in an opinion um a lot of the structures that you see around here are I beams and I beams tend to be very IND um so you know this I believe is more aesthetically pleasing than than most eff so the pictures that you have in your your packet here most of them commercial buildings commercial locations okay pictures that you yep how often are you installing these more residential areas and houses of worship yeah so um the the two pictures provided in in Lo and River Edge um those are actually at schools um so Boys and Girls Club of loo is up top and then the bottom one is yiva um so if you look closely those are um actually you know in more residential areas um and so we we do a little bit of both um we've done schools and Robinsville New Jersey um Sterling Regional School um we've done a restaurant Las Spenzo which I like going to that one because they have good food um kind of right in the M middle of a residential area as well and then you know obviously we do the the commercial application so we're well versed in both thank you any other questions did you did your company also do the one on to the scho that was that your project as well the one that you kind of looked at or the rooftop part of it no so we do have a rooftop application but that is not ours you're the carport Corr installer correct okay see anyone have any questions uh next witness Frank toico testim G tonight's proceeding the truth truth of Truth your name for the record spell on your name uh Frank Theo deci CCO and Frank uh your company and and your position with them yeah uh so emergy solar has been in business for about 15 years uh we do both residential commercial solar we've done about 9,000 systems since we've been in existence uh operate in the whole Northeast New Jersey New York Pennsylvania Connecticut and also in California and you have an agreement with the arch dases yes so we started about a year ago with the arch dasis of Nork um and we have about roughly about 12 projects going on with them um we've done Sacred Heart and hallworth uh Our Lady of bery and Park Ridge union Catholic High School and Scotch Plains um and just to clarify a previous question um ammer did do the rooftop solar on St Rose of Lima um so it's two separate systems they have two meters there so one meter is for the school um the other meter is for the church um so this the one that we installed which is fully done and operating right now on the school supplies roughly about uh 40 to 50% of their electric usage only because that was the amount of roof space that we had available how many would that be on that that's roughly about 50 Kil this is about two times yeah a little more than two times is that because of size or technology size okay um so the nice thing about the carport here is we're we're allowed in New Jersey what's called net metering or behind front what is your role with EMG solar uh I'm in charge of the commercial Department in sales thank you so with the um the church uses roughly about 150,000 kilowatt hours of electric a year in New Jersey it's called net metering so we look at the last 12 months usage of per meter we're allowed to design a system that will produce up to what the uh company has used in the last 12 months we can't design a system that will produce more than their last 12 months usage so basically the system that we're proposing on the carport is going to C cover 100% of the church's last 12 months usage whereas the school was roughly about 40 to 50% then there was a question about before we get to the gutters we there was a question about lighting yeah so we're gonna have we're going to install roughly about three lights underneath it's just regular 4 foot lights that will have 2200 lumens um pointed face down so it's just going to light up the cars the parking spots on Led Led Dust to Dawn uh Dust to Dawn yes okay and talk to us about the gutters the chairman expressed some concern about water collection have you had any issues with these sorts of things and what yeah so the panels it's not a it's not a roof there's no roof on it so the panels as he had said um each panel is roughly about uh three and a half feet wide by about six and a half feet long the panels don't butt up against each other there's a gap um both width and length so so as it melts or it rains it's just going to drip down as if it was raining on the existing parking lot um gutters are an option not something that that you know that we looked at here I'm actually also GNA for board's edification actually there's a law that that states that for solar panel applications and this is partially due the fact that they're deems to be inherently beneficial use section four land's law that the solar panel coverage so to speak is not to be included as part of impervious coverage for application we're going over payment anyway so I appreciate it I appreciate that I appreciate that I app just in case the board was concerned about impervious regardless of the state statute we're not adding any um anything else have have you had issues with um icing and so on with with carport installations in your experience not that familiar with that ask in terms of um emergency vehicles trucks Etc uh the applicant is asking for 20 20 feet 7 Ines or 20 20.7 feet 20.7 fee um in your experience working on these projects do you believe that is uh sufficient for purposes of getting emergency vehicles under the carport and the event of emergenc yes who chose the location uh our company did why there uh the biggest reason is that we actually have to tie into the the main and do a line tap into the main and the meter um and the existing uh where the meter is in the main is directly across in the garage if you can see it's this is the sheet drawing that we submitted from uh and Keller you're referring to sheet one of two that's part of the plan set yeah I'm sorry the meter is here but the main is right inside the basement of the church right here so we would be very short run to get it there um you know which solar you want to uh we'll have the inverters mounted on the actual canopy structure so the inverters then the panels make DC Electric the inverters change it over to AC and then you always want to invert it as close as possible to the structure because there's a lot of loss on DC much less loss on AC and then you want the shortest run possible not sure I understood what that meant but sound like saying it should be closer right the closer does it have to be in other words you know if you move that structure sort of further back closer to the church um like what would that what would that mean in terms of efficiency and is it possible to do when you say closer to the church well it's hard to see the church the church is here if you if you if you made the structure diagonal um and created spaces sort of closer into that back area yeah no we the design is because this is is going over the parking spots so if we change I'm sorry you could change the par parking spots pres um I I guess you could change the parking spots I don't if you if you could change the parking spots is there a reason why I couldn't go there no you could always change the orientation and it wouldn't be too far away where it would just not be economical for the church because they lose too much energy I don't know how describe well it so you're you're saying take this array and just turn it 90 degrees is that what you're saying Turn itct you're saying rotate it yeah rotate it and move it back a little bit uh try out Mr Lon ofama address that if he's able to okay so it I mean seems like there's a way you rotate it so it wouldn't be so front and center on Short Hills out did did you consider um based to Mr s's question ground Mount as opposed to carports Che there uh there's no property for the ground M yeah U we had the parking lot available there's um one thing with a ground Mount also you need a a big area and keep in mind when you're mouning on the ground buildings will shave for quite some area so you'd have to really have uh setback from all the structures that are on the property so it's the array is not going to be shaded I just over so you said right now the amount of solar that is currently on this building covers what again how much look this percentage the existing system 40% of the school of of the school right so you have one meter that supplies uh one meter from psng that supplies the school and then there's a second meter that supplies the church so what you see that we installed here is feeding the main in the school and covering roughly 40 to 50% of their annual usage so school only for the school only and what's the percentage for the church the church the array that's proposed is going to cover roughly roughly 100% of their usage so would it be possible to mount the arrays on top of the existing unoccupied flat rooms and and then make your runs to your meter from there no there's no more um there's no more usage over here that we can there's no flat roofs this I'm talking about on the building on the south corner of the school can you put more Sol there correct no we couldn't use actually we look to put it here for this system just to cover more of their usage but we didn't have any structural information so we couldn't um see if the roof would support it and it was a solid ceiling and we we didn't want to take uh take any core samples to get to the structure why uh we weren't sure what was underneath there if there was lead pain or anything so we didn't we didn't want to take that risk of opening anything up um we have we were able to get to the structure of this part of the school which is why we used that area because we would have used the rest of the roof to feed the school if we could have to get to get up to 100% of their usage to maximize the savings for the school as well as the church so is this the only place you considered putting this right on this property yes it's no plan B there was no plan B this was the the best place to put it Mr L of will be talking about this area but to give a profer he thinks that's going to be more exposed to additional residences and areas if you moving on to the generally the Northerly Direction planning testimony on a comparison right we're talking to the solar expert here that's that's why I'm more interested in from the actual mechanics of it than necessarily planning perspective fair enough uh anyone any other questions for anyone from the audience have any questions regarding the tesy I don't know if this is the proper time come on down um just identify yourself my name is Jeff Feld 11 Alexander Lane Short Hills New Jersey question the the question is when did they real someone realize they had to come to this board wait wait wait wait you have to ask the question the witness witness um I guess because the application is coming from the solar companies and that's what we're you like from what you just took my next question from it's coming from it when do they realize they had it come to this board and the reason I'm asking this question is that the township committee has passed an ordinance on first reading where they're allowing the use of these cor or solar cors to be a permitted use that'll be second reading in July I'm just trying to figure out when this because if you drive by the area is fenced in seems like um pillings were derailing do this when did someone realize they had to come to this board for approvals and the only thing I've heard so far the approvals not the use they you do to solar is now the height and I'm just trying to figure out when did someone realize they had to come to the air because we've been hearing about all these other projects in New Jersey is this the first time they had to come to a l use board to get approvals we do these other projects whether it's a school the yiva the other I'm sorry I was talking you got the gist what I yes so we were we were not aware that we had to come here until after we dug the holes and we called for the inspections um to look at the open holes before we uh before we filled them so what did you file for exactly we filed building permit we filed two separate applications one for the roof one for the carport um and they were approved and sent back to us we've uh Amy is not this is our first carport we're doing uh we've done all rooftops which is why we have a carport company that's coming in and installing because that's what they do so we were not hit what stop what trim the stop work when we called they have the when when the inspector came out to look at the holes to uh give us permission to fill them that's when we were told that they were not aware that it was carport so you talked about what 12 projects with the arch dasis yes okay of those 12 projects how many are carport they're all rooftop they're all rooftop so this is the only carport project are you familiar with other carport projects involving churches I not personally involved I've seen many carports in colleges that I've been to In in you know churches commercial I mean I've seen them I've been under them but I've never uh installed them up until now now so what was actually submitted that did you submit it as a as a carport or was it just sub no it was submitted as a carport with all the designs and everything and the structures and the foundations and everything uh please swear our our secretary s testim May yes so obviously they have more issues than just a carport here because you have side yard buffers and all stuff so what point was that recognized that uh this was recognized this was actually submitted for it came in as um solar panel installed blah blah blah blah blah solar solar panels on cboard and when they took this in they took it in as solar panels and I don't typically reviewed rooftop solar panels so it's yeah the carport part of it was sort of didn't it didn't really it wasn't 100% clear that they were constructing the car they just solar panels and there was some when they called they du the footings when they called in for the inspection for footings is when the person who in phon couldn't understand why they were goinging for footings for solar panels and that's when we discovered that they really should have come to the board it was conditional use doesn't me the conditions of conditional use and for church for church and residental district and also issues with the height as well as the very substantial side side set chair you know the plans were the plans showing a Corp but it occurred and we're here to fix it it occurred they were out there with building permits um okay um no further questions okay I think we're gonna father Larry has a comment on the location or no we'll have Mike first okay we'll try in between well try to address that issue of whether it could be moved if they could talk so we could address that further we could have Mike swor in you sar from testimony about the given tonight's proceeding the truth the whole truth the truth I do my name is Michael Lon zaama that's l n Za f m I'm a licensed professional engineer land surveyor and planner licensed in the state of New Jersey I'm a principal with the firm of Casey and Keller Incorporated 258 Main Street Milbourne New Jersey I've testified before this board and the planning board on numerous occasions okay chairman just for the record of this handout is A1 I think I mentioned that but I wasn't sure so I wanted to make said I did and Mike you have A2 which is a partial landscape plan I'll talk that okay uh Mr Lono F had a chance to review the application in light of the relief it's necessary yes I have and the board the benefit so Mr L here you're are you testifying just as a planner tonight planner and I I guess I can give some insights as an engineer as well okay thank you um so uh as uh Rick pointed out property in question is the St Rosal Lima Catholic church it's been at this location for more than a 100 years uh it exists that long before the zoning that currently in place uh existed as a matter of fact the church was originally moved from Springfield in 1880 as a wood frame structure and then the Brick Church was built in 1909 um the property is surrounded by uh single family uh residential zones across Short Hills Avenue also adjoining the property to the east is the um Short Hills Garden Apartments so you have a substantial portion of that property line that is common to the Short Hills Garden Apartments um the property is a triangular regularly shaped property um Frontage along Milburn Avenue is over 633 feet and Short Hills Avenue the frontage is over 949 uh linear feet uh the property also makes the bend around to Pine Terrace um the existing structures on the property uh include the church rectory School mum also has a cemetery uh located on it um there's a paved parking area immediately to the north of the rectory that accommodates about 168 parking spaces um as you can see from um sheet two is a blow up of the location of the solar panels um it shows the location of the solar panels being constructed within those angular parking spots uh in the central portion of the parking lot um the structure consists of s five sections of solar panels uh the carport um is 135 feet 4 Ines long it's 45 feet 6 inches wide how manyet wide 45 feet 6 Ines wide and 20.7 feet high um the location of the panels is oriented to the existing parking field um to take advantage of access and to maintain uh the parking for the church and its operations um to speak briefly about um reorienting the panels and the potential impact uh that might have on the church facility if you look at sheet one go back to sheet one for a second uh where you can see the the overall uh complex um you see that the building that is immediately to the south of the panels is actually the rectory and there's access to the garages along that facade of the rectory there's also a garage located to the rear and the driveway that exists just to the north of the rectory is also the access to the cemetery so repositioning the solar pan channels turning them 90 de with a a north south orientation would potentially impact um some of the access to those garages as well as to the cemetery itself um according to my conversations with um the applicant and uh their attorney Mr skullnick this seemed to be the most appropriate location for the so solar panels um from a planning perspective as well as a a utilization of the existing parking field um the variances that are required are uh the minimum sidey yard buffer to a residential property 25 feet is required uh we have 11 feet 2 Ines so the proposed variance is 13 feet 10 in this violates section 6062 D1 J of the conditional use standards now what's important to realize here is the orientation of the panels actually pulls away from that property line so if you took a line parallel to that easterly property line and offset it 25 ft the area of the panels that are actually violating the or ordinance is only 190 2 square feet of this overall array so it's a relatively small area that actually encroaches into that setback Mike that's a conditional use standard for houses of worship that is correct okay um also uh under the standards for houses of worship uh structures are required to be set back 100 feet from the street lines um the panels as they're proposed are being setb 42 .2 feet at its closest point on the Northern end uh of the uh the structure uh on the southern end it's about 45.9 feet so this would require a variance of 57.8 feet and that again is a combination of the conditional use standard which is 66.2 D1 G as well as accessory structures located on a corner a lot that 69.5 A1 which further states that accessory structures have to match the required front yard setback so we feel that that variance is also required and finally as we've discussed uh for a while at the previous uh witness that the height of the panels uh requires uh a 2.7 foot variance at the extreme tips of the panel um and that's 66.2 e3c now to support those variances what we have to look at is the positive criteria first and then the negative criteria in the positive criteria you have the fact that St Rose's church has been there for over a 100 years and is considered an inherently beneficial use in and of itself and not only is that considered an inherently beneficial use solar panels are now considered uh under the ml as um inherently beneficial uses so the the simple application of the fact that these are inherently beneficial uses uh presumptively proves the positive criteria for the uses and the location of the structure so it also advances um certain purposes of the ml to encourage Municipal action to guide appropriate use or development of lands in a manner that will promote the public health safety morals and general welfare as you all know one of your goals in your master plan goal six is to make Milburn more sustainable to encourage uh private properties to become more sustainable and that's exactly what we're doing here and and under the ml is to promote utilization of renewable uh energy sources and as to the negative criteria we have the two-prong test that we have to pass um showing that the variance if granted would not substantially uh be detrimental to the public good and public good that we often look at in this instance are the adjoining properties and how those adjoining proper properties are potentially impacted by the location of this structure and as to um Short Hills Gardens to our East as you can see the area that we are adjacent to with the structure actually an open area that adjoins garages and parking areas so would not negatively impact uh those properties as to the properties immediately across Short Hills Avenue what we are proposing closing is what has been marked as A2 and that's a supplemental landscape plan to introduce 10 shade trees along our Frontage to help screen from across the street those solar panels planted the right way they would be right along the frontage they would could be right in the just over the RightWay or along the right way we would certainly have to talk to the Forester about that but I don't see that you can see the two darker green trees or existing trees and we would try and supplement that streetscape by introducing 10 lyen chries there power lines on that side no they're on the far side so um so besides that I and we heard about the height of the structure uh being important to ensure that uh vehicular traffic didn't interfere with the structure and as I said earlier uh we Advanced goal six of the master plan which requires private development to incorporate sustainable design practices so that's pretty much our our presentation with regard to planning uh and Engineering I know there's much discussion about possible alternate locations um we did look at and ask the question what if what if we moved it further to the north we felt that was totally inappropriate because it really put it much closer to more single family residential houses immediately adjacent the location that we have proposed really ensures that it would have in my mind a minimal impact on the adjoining property to the East and we believe that the mitigation we're proposing with the supplemental Landscaping uh can we can safely say that it would not substantially uh impact those property owners Mike there's another conception on the positive criteria when you have that D3 conditional use that's the Coventry Square standard where the courts are uh asking for Testimony does the site remain appropriate despite the deviation it's another way to look at it does the site remain appropriate and the real focus is on the deviations do you have a planning opinion on that absolutely that this this site can still operate as a house of worship um the parking lot can still function appropriately and the solar panels are only a benefit to not only the church but to all of us in general as we move towards electric vehicles electric charging stations etc etc so I I can certainly say without any hesitation that this can happen that this can happen without any substantial detriment and look there's going to be some visibility that's a fact you know and you need that to to uh to have solar power and renewable so there's there's some detriment you feel that the mitigating steps are reasonable under the circumstances here yes and and the key word is substantial detriment and that's not the case here in my mind going back to your positive and negative criteria I don't necessarily agree with how you're describing it while solar panels are beneficial houses of worship are beneficial I don't think we're here for either one of those tonight we're here for how they're being nounce it well you're you're here for the solar panels themselves too and and how they play into the site and how they can work with the site and to use itself mount on the structure would be if they were mounted Elsewhere on the property if there we're not mounted on this structure here that you're proposing would we be here tonight if they occurred within the parking lot I would say yes if we met the setbacks but still occurred within the parking lot I I believe I could be wrong but I thought we would have to be here so so let ask you this explain the positive and negative criteria of mounting 20t up in the air on a big structure like this remember that 20 foot is at the very tip of the Gul is it 20 feet or not it is okay so explain that so explain what I'm getting at here is I'm trying to look at what we see in town okay and I don't know where any these structures exist other than the shs wall so so can I jump in for one second so um and I think Mr scholnick sort of touched upon this in his opening the marks you know this is not your you know typical application in that here we have an inherently beneficial use of church seeking to utilize solar car ports which is an inherently beneficial use under Municipal land so you have two you have a double header you have two inherently beneficial uses and the rule is that those uses if this was a prohibited use and you were putting a McDonald's in a residential Zone and you have to meet the positive criteria and the negative criteria here they have two inherently beneficial uses and the presumption is that they meet the positive criteria because they're inherently beneficial okay whether you like it or you don't like it whether it it um meets with what you see in town elsewhere automatically meets inherently beneficial standard but it's even stronger I believe for the applicant because it's also unlike my McDonald's example conditionally permitted in the zone so it's not a d it would not be a D1 case in any event would be a D3 case and under D3 cases conditional use boards Boards of adjustment to look at those those cases take into account the fact that the governing body felt that that particular use was appropriate in that particular Zone provided the applicant can meet the standards or the conditions for that use so the burden that an applicant would normally have for a D1 variance even for an inherently beneficial use in meeting the positive criteria is even I believe legally lessened because you're dealing with a conditionally use and I think the point is that you need to look at and I believe Mr ronus answered the question of Mr scholnick on this point that the particular deviations and to do those deviations under the negative criteria cause the substantial detriment to the to the public good and substantial impairment to the Zone plan Z ordinance but and it's a balancing so you know I tell boards all the time that if you if the applicant is Seeking a bus depot for school buses a bus depot for school buses in is inherently beneficial in New Jersey okay but it's maybe here inherently beneficials if you have a Trauma Center for uh brain injuries as inherently beneficial uses it would be much higher than the school bus depot and the reason why I'm I'm giving you that analogy is that all these cases involve a balancing in the end with the positive and negative criteria and you have to determine whether on balance right not only under a seeka balancing test that the positives that way that there's no substantial detriment but also that the particular deviation would be substantially detrimental so I don't know if that's helpful or not but that's what the law is in terms of dealing with not one but two inherently beneficial uses in the context of looking for conditional use at the particular DP so just one question Rob um you're not saying that the um inherently beneficial double inherently beneficial use trumps everything else we still are able to calculate you know ourselves make our own decision and determination whether the substantial detriment outweighs the double inherently beneficial use yes there there there's there's always still balancing the board has certainly the power even if it's inherently beneficial and it presumptively and presumptions can be reputed of course that presumptively meets the positive criteria that doesn't mean that you don't do your job get back to me doing my job go go ahead this is what you are are offering to us okay and while the use is wonderful and I think the the intent wonderful my question is is this the best option okay so when we look at this here is can some of this array be put elsewhere to either minimize the size of this I mean chairman we don't we don't have another spot for it you heard testimony that uh the roof was not acceptable and we don't think there's another good location on the ground for it we are offering mitigating factors Rob referred to the seeka balance test you look at the positives the negatives you say hey are there any conditions we can add so in preparation we said look there's going to be some detriment because we we're not 100 feet back we're 50 we 42 point2 right we're about half but we can do some uh mitigation reasonable mitigation and we're agreeable to that condition we don't the trees we don't even know if that's reasonable medication so I'm not sure those can go there why wouldn't they be able to go there I I walked so what I walked the site today with my landscape who says who says we can't plant in a right of way I don't know State somebody could say we're expanding the road and we a right of way is a right to expand the road so under the very rare possibility that the road is ultimately widened at that location which is pretty nil whoever owns the right of way could take the trees down but we own the property it's within the property line Mike it's right on the prop right on the prop so we would go to the governing body if we had to and let them know but this is you know it's tight but we can get them there but a right of way doesn't we're not aware of any uh title restriction on planting trees in the right of way I don't think you're correct chair on that issue that there's a Prohibition slam dunk is my point we're not aware of anything that would would prevent it so we're do we're not aware of anything that would prevent I wonder if if the utility company like to see a tree that grows at 60 ft that if it fell would knock out the pole on the other side well that you could say that about the existing trees along the street now well those are existing correct do they want more PL we're here to present it reason we offered this as what we thought would be a good way to mitigate the the Vista for the people across the street if the board doesn't feel this is appropriate could withdraw it are are those trees um Evergreens no they're lynen they they would they you would you would see the panels about five months out of the Year chairman I do note it does not appear there's any neighbors here I just like to understand something more about the second flat Ro of the school and and so what I heard was that there were no structural existing structural drawings for that roof and that there was concern maybe I just and that there was concern that making a determination about whether that roof could be used might open some additional cost or issues is that I think that's I don't know that it would prevent us from coming here but Frank if you can back up there were no structurals at all however the area where we mounted the panels had a drop ceiling so our structure engineer was able to use a ladder get up and take his measurements of the actual structure above the drop ceiling this other building the other flat roof uh no plans and it's it it was solid there was no drop sealing we could not access the actual structure but but you could have structural engineer that we'd have to cut the we'd have to cut it open that was the issue she uh I think it was plaster I'm not positive I think it was no I'm sorry um I I think it was plaster but I'm not positive and they were worried about how old it was and led being up there and creating another issue because like I said we could have used that roof for the for the we would have used that roof um in addition to the existing one for the school not the church it would have been an addition it would have been addition we still would have been looking to do a carport for the to cover the the church itself's usage right because you're not getting 100% of the energy bill covered 40% of scho 100% of school we still what I think he's trying to say is we even if we could use the roof the other roof that would only get us to 100% on the school still be would still be here for the carport because there's more energy to be saved there's more inherently beneficial to be gathered did you guys look at the roofs of the other buildings on the side yeah they're they're slate roofs um we can't install solar on slate because on a pitched roof we actually have to penetrate the shingles um and you'd just be cracking them uh if it was an asphalt chingle roof just like it would be just like a residential install we could penetrate go into the rafters to secure this to secure it on a on a flat roof it's a ballasted system so there's no penetrations in the roof where El in town do have structures of this Frank's not g to out oh any questions further questions so Mike how many parking spaces do you say on the site I believe 168 okay and another 168 how many are going to be covered by this call 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20 22 at 24 no loss of spaces no and was there any consideration of having this s this um car Port maybe either moved to another location maybe closer somewhat to Pine terce with less deviation from the ordinance requirements or even just splitting it up and having two separate arrays we didn't consider the separation but we did consider possibly repositioning them to a location in somewhat to the north and east and as you can see it would then put the arrays much closer to the single family homes unwinding way and they would still you would still need a deviation for the set back to Short Hills Avenue and you would just move the the houses that were being impacted can you do the can you do the carport just um one row not double row I couldn't answer that you you could yes right you can do that so so doesn't that help your setback problem I'm looking at the deviations here for which you need relief putting aside the height for a second so if you eliminated the panels closest to Short Hills Avenue and you're saying place them perhaps in in the area immediately to the north yes you could you could reduce you could increase the setback and reduce the EXT devation same number of panels overall correct to get the Energy savings correct so I guess the reason you have them come on so I guess the reason you have them in this like this vshape is number one to get East West exposure and for water drainage I is that correct pretty much the story there um if you were to cover the spots along the back of the the property okay um as just yeah like C starting there and then along the back where you just have a single sided obviously it would be caned away from the the residence could it be done that way we' have to look at it structurally did another reason we we selected this too it was one straight row of parking spots um now if you start going to the back as you can see you you're going to have three spots here then a cutout and then four here it's going to be like saw too um so you know the other reason that we chose this it was just one straight it had the middle the middle Island where where um the footings are going so it was closest to the electric it was the ideal spot that's on this property for it could you Rec configure those couple spaces there so it's not saled making it one straight line not not really if you look at you have the the refu area there's a garage here that needs to be accessed uh there's garage doors on the on the rectory just to on the north side of the rectory and then this is the access into the cemetery yeah I'm not we we would end up losing some parking I I believe I have it all out I couldn't answer or how about the length along you said the residential area there here correct doing it there as well where you would have just single side it once again it would be angled away from the residence obviously it's not quite the same exposure but it's pretty close so you would still have the 25 buffer set back variants required you you might eliminate the 100t from short right we'd have to we'd have to study it take a look at and even having cutting this in half we're still not going to meet to 100 well my point is this if you were to put them along the back you wouldn't have to have 20 ft up in the air either it's really not an eess ESS problem that you have right now I mean right now you're in probably the busiest part of your parking we could bring it down it it can be brought down it's not preferable well no I'm saying you're location I would not bring it down because once again bring fire trucks in there any type of apparatus I'm sure they they that close to the building but if you're along that backside over there you could probably get rid of the height deviation also as you just be having regular cars under them as opposed to emergency vehicles we're also gon to have I can't tell from there but we're also going to have probably tremendous shading issues there's this is ball tree line well you're obviously in front of that I you have a fence along the whole property line there's fencing along the entire right but the trees will shade the solar panels and it's going to cut the production drastically for what exposure I'd have to look at the height of the trees I I know just from being there the trees are they're tall trees they're all lined on the back but that's not going to limit your Western exposure I mean maybe Eastern a little bit but your your your panels will be sort of tilted to Western exposure they would yeah because they do shade the existing parking spaces I'd have to look at the height uh at the trees and but there will be substant substantial shading that would take place on because in instead of doing Canal lever 100% is a nice thing I mean but you know realistically you're not guaranteeing 100% well we can't guarantee 100% because the weather is an anomaly I mean we could produce more than 100% we could produce depend weather number well it's it's arbitrary but when we design a system we use a uh a site called pvw watch.org and what they do is they track the weather for over a hundred years we plug in the address and it pulls the closest weather station then we put in the pitch of the panels the direction the panels are facing the size of the system and just based on historical weather for the last 100 years it tells us on an average weather day how much uh solar how much electric that solar system will produce and that's the report that we actually have to send into psng along with our system sizes to show that the system is not going to produce more than what their usage was so we don't choose a Rand what I'm getting at is we don't choose a random size so and that website is based on minimum shading throughout the year so if you start getting shading involved you're only going down you're not going up and and keep in mind you know in the middle of the summer the sun is directly overhead so you may not get that much shading in the middle of summer but as we get into the fall and the winter the sun is now more elliptical and it Shades quite a bit um how you we don't clean them the rain the Tilt and the rain that we have in this part of the country is is enough to keep the panels clean and and it's even through pollen even when there's snow up on there the panels are still going to produce electric it uses the UV lighting of the Sun so it's not going to produce as much as it they weren't covered but it'll still produce what about noise noise yes no there's no noise there's no noise there's no moving Parts there's no um there's no maintenance to a solar system the maintenance is the inverters they need to be replaced every 15 years or so is system getting monitored off site yes and how does that happen well we there's a websit you have web base of the inverters uh you can track it at any time um we also we track our systems we monitor it we give our customers access to it so you can go on at any given moment and see what the system's producing at that moment and then you can run reports What It produced yesterday last week last month so and and it also alerts us if it's not working properly any other questions ear on you mentioned about LED lights from uh is that going to be basically on the night and how is that under the panel I mean I it'll be no yes I'm sorry it'll be under the panel in the middle facing down so it's just going to light up to parking spots just just for safety concerns for the for the church to have the parking lot lit do the current parking lot lit dust door they currently have lamp posts I don't know what time and uh we have four or five lamp posts throughout so this will be in addition to the lamp posts two lamp posts two or three were taken out because they were in the median where the uh uh where the the B the footings are going so this will replace them dist from the homes surrounding yeah they'll be up underneath the structure and facing straight down any questions chairman can we have two minutes to coau us and yeah real quick anyone any questions the audience or Mr no okaye would you would you mind if we took a break for two minutes two minutes yeah out e e e e e e e e e e e e e so we reiterate that we can make the uh overall canopy lower in the current location we don't think that really makes sense but it can come down that would remove one of the variances but there's just less flexibility in the current location to bring it down from 20 feet. 7 to the 18 father Larry would like to say a couple of words we're going to ask for a vote tonight um uh and and father Larry would like to address the board on that issue if you may sure thank you for your time when we decided to do this the decision was based on what would be the best thing for St Rose of Lima Church without negating our responsibility to the community as our demographics continue to change and as some of our Heavy Hitters continue either to move to other places or to go home to God we have to find ways in which to sustain ourselves we cannot allow people to keep coming putting their hands in the pocket when there is a way to prevent this as the pope has written in terms of sustainability and things of that nature is something I personally believe in and that we believe in in choosing the site location it is the most feasible place there was an island there and it does not disrupt any traffic flow between parents picking up their children after school which is a safety issue or prevent us from using our Cemetery or the access of the priest in the residence the the panels on the school are only at 40% but they only function as the school when the term Church kept being used it's not the church the old Convent that's attached to the school is a benefit of the panels on the school the panels cannot be put anywhere else on the property due to the Slate I have looked at that I would prefer that the only option we had was to build this carport and put the panels on top that is why we chose that we looked at other parts of the parking lot the trees and you're welcome to come and take a look the trees will shade an entire car those are preferential parking spaces so if they're shaded the sun cannot do its job to to energize the panels to move it any anywhere else would still bring us the same problem having to put up more trees or other possibilities I've listened I hear your concerns and I am very grateful however I did inform the church that a decision would be made tonight so I have to go with whatever you decide the vote has to be tonight uh we have delayed this long enough we have actually temp hopefully temporarily lost some parishioners to other churches because of the way it's set up they cannot get in and this has been their home for years it is my hope that we can conclude this hopefully move forward but either way I have to conclude it one way or the other to bring people back home to their Parish because the elderly cannot walk as far as they have to to get around this big structure so that's all I have to say and I want to thank you so much for taking the time to listen and to be honest for your pointed questions because they're valid that is your job and you have yours and I also have to do mine so thank you very much father yes sir um with any exing hearing most cases as sure Mr scol tell you a bit of a get and take and I think for you to force a vote this evening is only selling yourself short that if there is a way to create some sort of compromise or there is a way and I'm not saying that that it's necessary it may may all in your favor but to listen to comment from the board first before you make that choice and if there's a way to temporarily open your lot if it doesn't go your way may be something that would be beneficial to everyone your your parishioners as well as achieving your goal whether it isn't this way or some sort of version of this I find it hard to believe that the firm isn't created enough to maybe come up with something else but it would behoove you to listen to what we have to say and then make that decision because I would hate for you to force a vote tonight and not go in your favor and you're that close to maybe getting I I'm more than happy to listen uh to be honest with you sir this has been delayed for almost a month and it has caused a lot of consternation I have to bring just a little bit of history that is probably of no concern to the board before my arrival there was an elevator put in it took five years for that I came in front us as well yes I I cannot do that to these people we are preparing and all the proper fors are being to rip up the front steps of our church their are liability and everything else all of that has been gone gone through the application process there is only so much construction that can be going on to delay this to July is just not feasible but I I take your advice I will wait to hear your comments before I make a final decision decision so thank you very much decision byard however correct there's there's a lot of Steel that's been ordered because of what happened in the building department nobody's fault but there's a lot of a lot of Steel has been fabricated for this project is sitting out there answer my question well I advised my client the best I could obviously and and I'm glad that Josh and for the record I adise mine as well so right thank you I'm glad that Josh was here as well uh with that is there any comment from the audience regarding this case now is the time if you have a comment move forward in that case I'll close the public portion of the appliation word numers your thoughts I'll start off by saying that I I understand that you know the the request and the need for this and where this is going I am concerned that there is a in its current iteration the current location the current everything else I am concern that there is a substantial detriment um that is not you know at all uh you know mitigated by the you know by the inherently beneficial use of both the church and um you know having solar panels um I think the you know in particular the 57.8 you know that variance is just it's it's a substantial detriment um that's that's my personal view my concern let me phrase that please comment look I I I share my colleagues concern I I'm very torn on this though because I do think that um it is um it is inherently beneficial to have this kind of structure uh and to have solar energy Supply the church's um energy needs but I feel like there are alternatives here um that could be to the Chairman's point that could be reached and and uh it may be that for whatever reason the church um needs to move forward tonight um I think that's unfortunate but I think there are ways this could be done I'm concerned that in the current format uh that um uh that the standard hasn't been so I first saw this right what went through my mind was why uh not So Much from the sustainability standpoint covering the bill I get that I think I think that's absolutely fantastic to use renewable energy um but why in terms of this absolutely magnificent structure and having this sort of bizarre piece of technology put right in front of it and I thought to myself is that really the best way to do it um I think it's the easiest way but I'm not sure it's the best way and um achieving 100% coverage and the optimal circumstances I think is wonderful though you know if you achieve 85 and get it to be maybe a little bit more um aesthetically pleasing um structure lower a little a little bit more masked um I think would be the ultimate win so the way it currently stands I uh let say here some compelling arguments from my my colleagues uh think I would support it the way it looks chairman I think uh father Larry understands or Mr K has explained to him that we require five out of seven votes for an approval tonight correct okay so I'm Gonna Leave it to Mr cudre um to talk to his clients I can't force you to come back but I'd love you I I'm am G could you squeeze us on I won't be here but could you squeeze us on July 1st yeah ask make sure you guys are on the same page okay I'm just trying to present all the facts right I will tell you that shanu and Gary are not be here okay two of you be here July 1 yes they'll be here then you have a full okay so Josh you'll have a full board on July 1st we appreciate your Pati okay we can we carry sorry five out of six but I still think so for the record Joshua Cru Law Firm Sil comus and gross on behalf of the church uh yeah we will please announce a carry to the next available meeting which I understand is July 1st same time in this meeting place no further not notice required that's correct um as mentioned no further notice we M any plans that with one sorry Rob go first I was gonna say probably with one exception uh with depending on what plan modifications may or may not uh come to be um if there's extent of variances that may be modified or created correct correct that's understood um in in terms of the the time frame I think we should just let's lock that down now um what's the minimum number of days you would need I to take a look at and modifi plan should the applicant go in that direction for the July 1 meeting Friday this Friday Fray Fray this week is seven days um yeah Ian you're not GNA have the modifications are not going to be major typical because the Bo has already heard a lot of testimony a lot of testimony think seven days as long as you're comfortable that we appreciate it okay thank you announc it it's this application is going to be carried to uh meeting the adjustment on Monday July 1st 2024 7M in this room no further notice to be provided by the app okay there were no I won't be here on the first but uh there were no members of the public we'll do our best to get you something uh in advance of then and not we'll we'll figure out the dates either way thank as uh Mr SCH is also counsil on this next application just a couple minutes get together sorry too e e e okay lastly this evening we have Cal 39 8724 which is P from a playhouse um we will not hear any new testimony at 10:30 so you got till like slightly after that see what you can do is that new Witnesses after 10:30 Witnesses okay sorry chairman I am still Richard skck uh representing the paper Bill Playhouse for the record it's block 1304 Lots 1314 and 15 I do have a couple of minutes of introduction to try to set the table uh the addresses are 20 and 22 Brookside Township of Milburn owns Lots 13 and 14 and the mayor has executed the application that's before you as the owner of those two lots those two lots are located in the CD Cultural District zone and paper mill leases those lots from the township based upon a lease going back to 2008 there's a 35-year term on that lease with four potential 10-year extensions so it's a 35 Plus 40 years a 75 year long lease running through the year 20 83 paper mill recently purchased lot 15 in January of 2023 and that's in the r six Zone and there was a residence as everyone is aware on that lot uh it had been used as a private parking lot during paper mill performances paper mill has raised that house at 20 bookside in August of 2023 and it's reached a tenative agreement with the township where the township is now going to purchase lot 15 from paper mill there was a vote of the township committee on that on April 2nd of this year and there have been drafts back and forth presumably after that purchase the township would own all three lots we're here for site plan approval the actual building footprint expansions that we're seeking are quite modest uh there's no expansion of the theater itself the seating is going to remain the same uh the proposal is that to expand the lobby area of the footprint by about 2600 square feet and the carriage house by 1670 square feet so we're talking about 4260 square feet in the context of a 3.27 acre parcel or 142,000 square feet so we're talking about overall even though there's a lot going on it's a 3% increase in overall building footprint we remain compliant in terms of building coverage standards in both the CD and the R6 Zone getting ready for this application I submitted my usual open public records act request to get any prior resolutions there was a bit of a surprise in the response there was a 1992 resolution that said the carriage house was limited to 65 patrons of the theater that the carriage house could only be used for patrons of the theater uh that was in the 1992 resolation resolution those conditions had relief in a year 2000 resolution for five years but but they had sort of faded away in time nobody knew about them so part of this application is to lift those restrictions and you'll hear from Mike stots the executive director on why paper mill want wants to use the Carriage House in a a different way and make better useage out of this Community Asset uh so we formally we are seeking to have the 1992 resolution amended in addition to the site plan approval and the variances we have some D6 height variances those are relatively minor the architect will talk about those we have D1 variances for the use we took what I'll call a worst case situation we called the Carriage House a separate principal use we didn't want to have a struggle whether it's principal or accessory we called it a principal use it's not permitted in the CD zone or the r six zone so we do need use R variance relief to expand the carriage house uh it's also a second principal use even though it's on the one campus so we have that sort of relief in front of the board there have been no uh material physical improvements to the Papermill since the 1980s that's 40 plus years as you know and as you're heard me say this lease runs through 2083 so we believe that this is an exciting application that represents a real investment a material investment into a significant Community Asset that's going to bring really the paper mill into the 21st century we're GNA uh call our first witness Mike stots after that we have Don Kim the architect then we'll have Adam westenberger the civil engineer and Rich Keller on the variance relief we'll try to do it all tonight if we can uh we'll see how it goes um with that Mr STS gonna have miss Warren just raise your right hand please from testimony about giv tonight proceeding the truth the truth I do you for the I didn't spell your name Michael stots S TTS okay Mike could you just tell us your title and your affiliation with paper mill sure I'm the executive director I've been with the company for about five and a half years um my past experience has been as the executive director and managing director of a few theaters um uh where I've done building projects not unlike this one and uh you report to the Board of Trustees I do indeed I'm here here tonight with my business partner Mark Hobie who is the producing artistic director we are the current stewards of this building and this property but we report to the board of directors and you're totally familiar with all aspects of the renovation plans I am okay could you just tell us a little bit about the background of paper mill so we have it on the record sure uh we're celebrating our 85th Anniversary I think everyone in the room probably knows that paper mill is a major cultural institution in uh we were uh founded uh like I said 85 years ago and during that period this last 85 years we have had enormous success uh developing and producing musical theater uh straight place for a long time but most recently a musical theater uh our current budget is around $30 million a year and over the last several uh years we have been developing shows that have found life after paper mill uh on Broadway um most recently The Great Gatsby which premiered at our theater last fall and opened on Broadway just a few months ago uh and won a Tony Award last night uh we have congratulations thank you very much uh we have about 175,000 people cross through our doors every year um plus another 40,000 who participate in our education programs we have very significant education programming uh on site and in the new Papermill Studios which we opened uh right before the pandemic in downtown Milbourne uh these include a number of programs where we bring students to the theater offer classes a professional training program uh programs for people with various disabilities um and so on uh our plans are to eventually expand further into the downtown Corps by creating an education center uh that will be a compliment to our activities on the main campus you you may have mentioned it but you are not for-profit we are a nonprofit yes okay and uh you raise quite a bit of money and grants uh like I said our budget is around $30 million and we raise approximately $5 million a year in contributions okay you have some uh programs like adop a school can you talk about those and how they work sure uh like I said we have a number of different education programs the adopted school program is a partnership with uh a number of schools mostly in urban areas where it's a four-year contract track where we both go into the schools with teaching artists to uh educate the students around various elements of the theater and bring them to the theater as well over that fouryear period uh our most one of our most significant education programs is the summer Conservatory which is about to kick off which is a professional training program where we audition students uh who might participate for a great number of years starting at the age of seven or eight up until 18 or 19 uh they many of them go on to careers in the theater some folks like an hathway Lord benat and others have uh participated in our education programs and gone on to great uh Acclaim uh we have other programs such as the uh just the theater classes that we offer downtown at the education Studios uh a whole variety of programs for children of all ages and abilities and uh does there uh continue to be strong demand for these sorts of programs yes it's always growing okay uh just by way of background you've done some studies on the economic impact of paper mail in the Milburn Community could you give us a brief summary of those in 2021 uh in anticipation of doing a major Capital campaign in this building project uh we contracted with a company called EC consult uh which does economic impact surveys they're based in Philadelphia and had them look at all of our data uh from you know patrons number of people at work at paper mill the number of people come through our doors and through their methodology came up with an economic impact of about $36 million to the local economy uh Milburn and surrounding area 65 million to the state in both direct spending indirect spending and induced spending which is the money that is generated by the patrons who come here in the local uh to the local restaurants and so on you obviously provide employment opportunities for the artists and the all the support staff can you talk about that for a second we do it's a we're a large organization and uh every year we issue over 500 1099s in W2s uh so we have a great number of people on our staff uh at the restaurant front of house uh and a great number of artists that passed through um our doors every year administrative staff performers included all all of the above we probably have six or 7 hundred people Al together that work as season at paper now okay let's turn to the project now uh how did it come to pass what was the evolution and and the thinking behind what you're presenting to the board and the community tonight well as you stated earlier the the buildings are old um a fire destroyed much of the theater in 1980 and uh it was rebuilt at that time and uh with the exception of the a atorium which was upgraded in 2018 if you've been there recently you will have seen the beautiful upgrades that we've done there not much of the building has been touched since then it's obsolete the uh there's a tremendous amount of wear and tear uh it's inaccessible to people with uh disabilities um it has just dated bathrooms there the way it was designed was especially the front of house bases are uh it wasn't built to accommodate the size of uh the audience that we have so you have got tremendous congestion in the lobbies uh everything sort of converging at one point where you have the bathroom lineups going into the concession lineups while everyone else else is trying to go into the theater um in 2013 before I got hired the board and the staff at that time uh started talking about the the renovations that were needed to really uh have paper mill uh become the theater of the 21st century that it needs to be that it it would have to have all of these upgrades to be competitive with our peers in the industry and and it would need to take care of all of the uh the the issues with the building that have either been problematic because of deferred maintenance or because they were just poorly uh designed so the renovations that we're about to embark on include everything from uh the circulation areas that need to be improved to just fixing up the back of house areas uh which are the oldest parts of the building to new HVAC Plumbing electrical all of the things that will help us to uh be a much more competitive Organization for the future so the vast majority is not really a site plan type of issue here where not the building expansion but all the it it has all those other things to to upgrade the physical plan yeah we've looked at pretty much every element um in terms of of what needs to get done and it's it is a lot of site plan the the campus it is the carriage house um the front of house is our biggest problem right now meaning the entrance to the theater and where the bathrooms lobbies and Concession areas are um and how the back of the building is not connected to the front of the building so just as some history paper mill was actually Four buildings that were sort of built onto each other over time um with the bulk of them happening in 1980 after the fire and then one uh that was sort of tacked on after that where uh some of our offices are located in the back um it's a rabbit warrant of offices most of which are just out of date and we have small staircases that go everywhere creating it almost impossible for anyone with any kind of a physical disability to get from one end of the building to the next uh and so this renovation will put us on two levels essentially and allow for people in a wheelchair or with another accessibility issue to be able to get from the back of the building to the front Okay and then uh 2019 you sort of kicked into a higher gear with some new members and fundraising can you talk yeah so in 2013 the the board and uh the staff at that time started the planning for this and it was determined that at that time uh the company probably couldn't raise the amount of money that was going to be required to do the r Renovations that were being considered um so over subsequent years uh they really looked inward they built up the board in 2019 that's when I started uh with the organization uh We've continued to to work on our fundraising we're now raising a considerable amount of money every year uh we've added new board members we have uh brought on a tremendous amount of new staff um the pandemic kind of got in the way of our growth plans but uh it was during the pandemic that we decided we really need to take this time to do this planning and so while we were at home we came up with the architectural plans we were trying to move everything forward so that when the doors reopen to the theater we could start in Earnest the fundraising and the rest of the process that we needed to go through to complete this project okay um we talked about the back of the house and the dressing rooms can you talk a little bit about the carriage house and what the vision is uh for that and how it fits into the overall campus sure our original plans uh did not include anything in the carriage house uh it was really about just fixing the main theater building uh but a year and a half ago this opportunity arose for us where the property next door immediately next door 20 Brookside uh became available it was a privately owned and the woman who owned the property operated as a parking lot for Papermill um it came on the market and we bought it and it opened up an opportunity for us to think about what the gateway to the Papermill campus could be up until that moment when you were coming up Brookside Drive to Paper Mill you saw this little old white house that had nothing really to do with anything that was behind it we've since taken that down and what we intend to do is uh relocate the facade of the theater on the uh on the south end of uh the carriage house creating what we think is a beautiful gateway to our entire campus um and so the carriage has became a major part of our planning uh about a year and a half ago uh where we decided you know if we purchase this property we can also then uh be able to double the size of the restaurant increase the capacity get a function room on the second floor which we currently don't have um and it became a very uh focused part of our project um so uh talk about uh some of the things uh that the community has said about the usage of the carriage house and and how how you think you might change the usage a little bit sure uh so in in the 1990s when it was converted into a restaurant prior to then uh well originally if we go way way way back um The Carriage House was a residence for uh a patron of the theater who really sponsored the organization back in the 1930s it was her residence the old part of the carage house um in the 90s it was decided that uh it would make a nice restaurant um and so at that time we put into place or the company put into place uh everything that it need it would need the liquor license and so on for use of the carriage house um during the pandemic uh it the first thing that we were able to reopen in the summer of 20 uh 2020 was was the carriage house for outdoor dining takeout dining and performance we created a 100 seat restaurant on the brook side and did Cabaret performances in the open air and it was one way that we just stayed alive during that period of time and our audience was thoroughly engaged with it when we all went back to work we continued that but also decided you know the carriage house is an opportunity for us to offer programming on a more regular basis so traditionally it's just been an amenity to our patrons who are coming to the theater they buy dinner they have dinner they go into the theater then they leave on dark nights um we have two or three weeks in in between shows nothing was going on there and so we've started doing Murder Mysteries and trivia nights and cavaret and a variety of other events and we've found ways to keep it occupied uh and the audience is loving it and one of the things that the township brought to us uh when we were negotiating the financial package um was they they wanted to see more return from paper mill in a few different ways one more opportunities for students at the middle and high school with paper mill which we're now working on ticket opportunities for people in town who might not be able to afford a ticket to Paper Mill trying to come up with with ways to make it affordable for them and expanded use of the carriage house um whether it was for addition lecture series or uh performance nights or rentals uh they were looking at it as an asset that was tremendously underutilized so uh it certainly plays into our business plan of trying to maximize and optimize the use of that space as much as possible so you heard during the the public meetings and from the governing body how can you reposition carage house yes exactly um there was a lot of interest in just activating the entire space more nights of the year um including the main theater but the main theater is probably lit as much as it can be because of what goes on in between shows is the preparation or the you know the strike of the show that is just been in there and that can be a two to three or four week process depending on the show that's leaving or coming in so uh one of our compromis solutions to them was to be able to expand the programming uh in the carrage sh and try to keep the carrage L as many nights a week a year as possible okay this is going to relay later to the parking but let's let's talk about how the carriage house is going to be so when you have a show going on the carriage house is essentially G to be used for for diners uh people are gonna come and then they're gonna go to a they're gonna go to same group same yeah okay then uh the theater is gonna be so that's the busiest that's sort of the peak fairely yes that's the and it's the use is really with some expanded seating but similar today yes absolutely we're we sell at the restaurant most nights with people that are going in to see a show okay so uh if if the board does approve it gets built you'll have some expanded seating but uh you don't expect more parking demand because it's just going to be more uh right ticket holders using the carriage house they're still coming to the campus in the area anyway that's correct the capacity of the theater is not changing we have 1150 seats we can serve around 80 people for dinner and we're going to be able to serve 160 of those people that are going to the theater instead of just 80 okay so uh you're not expecting on on nights when uh the theater is uh with a show uh you're not expecting overall more people you may get more people in the carriage house could you have more seating if you can you know you'll be competing with what's going on around right but we're not going to be operating it as a a restaurant for people that are not attending a show okay we're that is not part of the deal um on Dark Nights yes we the restaurant will be open but it'll have a much smaller capacity we have plenty of parking for for those events that's what I was trying to get at we have plenty of parking for those perhaps in or so when the theater is dark you're anticipating some additional types of events at the at a renovated carriage house but of course there's plenty of parking because you don't have the 1100 theater goers that night okay um you just talk a little bit about the intended construction schedule to give the board a little feel for that yes it's a it's a very complex project and will be done over three to four year period um starting this summer um the the overall project includes what I'm we call the back of house renovation uh which is not before you today but it's the first part that we're dealing with with its interior work that needs to be done on the back of hus which are the dressing rooms offices uh restrooms for staff and so on it's all interior work nothing going on outside and we're not taking down walls uh it's Mo mostly about refurbishment back of houses starting this summer the second phase is the carriage house uh our intent is to uh start that NE start and finish it next summer um it is key to do that part of the renovation uh next summer so that the following summer uh June July of 25 for 14-month period we will then be doing the front of house renovation which is the most significant part of the renovation it involves demolishing the entire front of house and creating a temp temporary Lobby restroom facilities and so on for the patrons that will still be coming to the theater while we're doing the construction it is our intent to do the work while we are in construction which is why it's a 14-month period we've been working on a plan for how to deal with erass and a whole variety of other issues that uh will come up by doing the construction at that time we determined that we cannot close the theater for a period of time to do the renovation which might be the more economical thing to do over a shorter period of time but having gone through the pandemic and lost a substantial number of our audience we don't want to take the risk and so we're now looking at how we will operate during that year uh when we're doing that but the carriage house is kind of key to being done be before is it will not only function as a restaurant but Provide support services uh for some of our staff while we're doing the main part of the renovation uh of the front of house a complicated project it's an extremely complicated project there's been some fundraising can you touch on that it is a uh Allin right now $43 million project um we're close to $30 million in funds raised for the project uh combination of public and private support so we've got individual donors uh who have pledged um close to $20 million uh we have some State support and then the township recently uh made a financial commitment of $7 million to take care of very specifically um the purchase of 20 Brookside so that all of the property is continuously owned by the township fixing the retaining walls uh along the river and the back parking lots which both have issues and and have not been well maintained part of it's just because of wear and tear um underground water uh because there is underground water everywhere around here and we found a solution for fixing it um right below the theater and then relocating the facade um during our conversations with the historic preservation committee over the last year and a half uh it was very important to them that we retain certain elements of the the design of the current facility um they wanted it to reflect a mill um and pay homage in a in a way that um uh honored the past of of the site and they wanted to us to retain uh the facade so if you will it looks like we have essentially pulled the facade off the existing building and put it onto the the carriage house like I said earlier creating this Gateway uh but the cost of rebuilding that wall and Our intention is to do it uh replicated as closely as possible we won't be used we won't be uh moving the wall but rebuilding it replicating it as much as possible and so the township uh support will help cover that cost as well okay let's uh just come back if if we can a little bit to that 1992 resolution yeah you were surprised to see those conditions in in there well I had no idea it existed and and nor did anyone uh currently working in the carriage house or working at the theater it had not been sort of a rule passed down if you will and so learning that the there was a capacity limitation hours limitation was complete a complete surprise and so what our hope is is that um our current practice and what our intended use of the carriage house once the renovations are complete will dictate the capacity the use and the hours of the restaurant okay so essentially we you'd like to be able to use the carriage house when the theater is dark for events that are going to be lower in intensity than when the theater and Carriage House are operating together so a it's not a peak issue but to to leverage that asset as you heard from the township committee and and in other community forums um and and the board is is obviously aware that that's that's part of our uh request tonight um we talked a little bit about the parking we're losing 10 spaces um we are adding a demand for approximately 32 spaces because we're uh uh increasing the seating in the restaurant overall but can you just address do you see there being an increased demand at the peak or uh or you know a different sort of structure you see a problem I I don't see the demand for parking increasing because of what we're doing with the carrot House Restaurant okay um because most of the people 99.9% of the people coming to the car us the night wave of performance which is when we have the most number of cars in the Lots is not fundamentally going to change they're coming to see the show okay just repeating that point to to uh to cover it okay uh loading space we're going to be seeking relief for uh uh not having a formal loading space you obviously have loading but it occurs on off hours do you have any need for a formal loading we don't um we have a loading dock for theatrical use which is not going to change um at the rear of the theater for the restaurant uh they either go into the circular drive that is currently existing that goes away but we replace it with the longer indent that you see there um or they back in to L which is in behind the theater and walk to the carrage house I don't foresee a need for a specific loading area for the restaurant because as as you just said all of the deliveries come when we're not in performance so there's there's no activity really going on okay and I think we covered your your discussions and what you did with the HPC in town to do that any further comment on that no we we've been in discussions with them over the last year and a half um listen to what their concerns have been I think we've honored what their wishes are we're all very pleased with uh what this design is I will mention that we started with a design that was very contemporary not anything that you're looking at right now and realize through our conversations with them that uh we should be um thinking much more about the history of the property from an architectural point of view and so we sent KSS Architects back to the drawing board and they came up with uh this solution which accomplishes a number of things that we were trying to do creating the Gateway retaining the wall um redesigning the uh the main lobby so that um it it has the mill figure you're not seeing you will see later from our architect some of some other angles and views of of this so you can see the mill and how it's Incorporated and also from the just in inside the the lobby um what we've we want to try to do is create this uh relationship with the outdoors um so that we're in a beautiful setting and to have our audience inside be able to see what's outdoors and vice versa um that's great for uh for theaters it's great for um creating excitement and and attention to a site when you can actually see the activity that's going on inside that building and I think that this design helps us to do that Mike anything else on your end not right now okay uh we reserve our rights chairman that's our intruction to give you all flavor any questions from the audience regarding comments that have been made please come for please come forward and identify yourself yes um my name isic wa wa micophone um my name is Patricia wolf um my marriage to Ed gy um been living across the street from the paper mill for over 30 years as my neighbor Here Sell is we're here with concerns about questions questions you have questions oh questions I'm I'm confused about where people are going to are you moving the entrance of the theater more towards the parking lot no the entrance to the theater stays right where it is oh I but with a ramp that now makes it possible for wheelchairs to be able to get in and that's the carriage house and this is the Carriage House okay thank you okay when we meet next week I can explain all of this any other questions identify yourself I'm sell Reef I your name s u r e l l e last name r e e two FS Frack frack and you I live at nine Brookside Drive and uh question for my question is how will we're very happy that you're renovating and doing these updates but since our houses um are from theirs 1852 according to Ruckers and mine like a little later 1870 something to 1881 um they're also they were Mill houses they were part of the history of the paperman and even though they were over 100 something years they have G to goone many changes they're still historically very pertinent to the town um but because they're so close my question is how will all this rumpus rockus how yeah how will the construction the debris you know it's a very busy street and we all already have a lot of impact from uh the caruse which is not anything so your question is how will the debris affect how will the debris The Sound which there's a lot of sound the lighting Choice the lighting choices well we will probably Mr scol will be getting into that so to the best of your ability if you're able to answer that question I mean we're very aware that not only are you neighbors but we have neighbors on the other side of the river as well and we are going to have to work with our construction manager to make sure that we causes little disturbance as possible but it is going to be a construction site there is going to be demolition there is going to be sound from that we will be very cognizant of you know late nights and so on and so forth we don't want to do anything that's going to disrupt the um uh The Neighbors in terms of you know keeping up all night um it will be well coordinated and as we get closer and closer to that part of the renovation which is two years away um we will come up with much more detailed plans I don't have detailed plans for you right now about what our schedule is going to be right now we're doing the backup house which is not going to distribute at all and the carriage house should cause a little disturbance due next next year even though it's going to be construction but it's a relatively small project okay we realize that the other qu I guess I have to not one questions at this point just more in questions so things that maybe would increase like buses that have been a long I wonder if any of those alterations like buses that spew a lot of additional degree um because we're so close that um I'm wondering if maybe the Bus locations where they not let the people on and off but if buses might do that elsewhere because sometimes they idle for the whole show when it's cold out or whatever so my question is would that be a consideration like buses our plans don't include anything other than uh the redesign of the drop off um for additional Bus Parking we're not doing anything to the parking lots Beyond Paving eventually lighting and signage but there's not going to be any kind of accommodation within the existing lots for buses I don't think there's going to be increase in buses but I understand your point about you know fumes and all of that I don't know I mean we can have a further conversation I think but I don't know how uh this project should I don't think it'll impact that any can greater and it shouldn't make it any worse I mean well let me just ask you this last thing this last question is would you be able to give us a heads up um about what's happening and when it's happening so we can prepare because it would be hard to get down the street and that kind of thing when we meet next week we can talk through all of the details of what that sounds you're going to need to know okay and we could have an ongoing dialogue with these okay thank you you're welome Jeffrey Feld um 11 Alexander Lane I'm just based on I've been to various meetings and hearing your questionings what is the urgency of this current application you just testified that the first part is the back of the house that doesn't really require the zoning board's approval the reason I raised this was we talk about the lease that came out in 2008 to the best of my knowledge that lease has not been amended by the local governing body is that true that's correct right nor has the local government body approved the acquisition of the parking lot yet that's um that's in process they the question is have it's not in process have they introduced an ordinance yet to acquire that problem we believe they have on April 2nd there was a bond ordinance authorized were you at the meeting no all right do you know is it true that the ba here's what I would say Mr Feld is the intention of the bond ORD ordinance is to cover the cost of acquiring that property it was part of the ne negotiations the urgency of what we're trying to do here is we need to be able to move forward with all of our planning right and authorize The Architects to go to the next level of design right now these are schematics given the complexity of this project and the scope and scale of it and the fact that we're still actively trying to raise 10 million dollar for its completion we need to make sure that we have the rights and all of the approvals the variances that are required any new ordinance that needs to be passed for the capacity of the carriage house so that we can go to the funding community and say Milbourne has supported what we're doing here we've got the approvals where this is what our time frame is this is how Capital campaigns work and how capital projects work you need all of these things in line so even though we're not starting construction for two years there's a lot of stuff we need to know if is going to be in place well so that we can actively you're asking this board to approve something based on a lease agreement that has not been amended you're asking them to start approving stuff based on an acquisition that has not been approved tonight folks was was the first time I heard the breakout of the $5.3 million keep sort of cut the chase here are you questioning Mr Fel the issue of standing for this applicant to present this application no I I don't think I've went that far but but I par is that's why I'm asking you the question because if they have standing to present the application to the municipal land law they are permitted to file an application um and we have very um General standing rules in the state of New Jersey I agree with you go ahead so no I'm just saying try to focus I'm just I'm just saying earlier when we had another application was saying R we had two parts of that application you had the owner that being the church and you had the actual applicant at that time which was the contracting business and and there was a real distinction because you had two different attorneys representing two different interests tonight we only have one person who's one remember two people signed the application two parties signed the application to this board one being the Papermill the other one being the township of Milbourne and I don't see anyone here testifying on behalf of the Township of milour but it's 20 after and I think this application is going be carried but there are questions I think they needs part record thank you uh any other questions regarding testimony far we're gonna call Don Kim the next witness question sorry yeah I I have a question um just I'm the leaon to the HPC for the zoning and you know a lot of this is new to me I was just wondering um like when did what I mean you said these talks have been occurring for a year and a about a year and a half yes has the has the HPC written any any report uh no I haven't seen any kind of report these were conversations that we had with Allison cwell and uh Bon Ross um and introduced you know what our plan word to them and and receive some direction from them I will just add that a copy of this application was canel digitally on May 2nd and a hard copy was putting the mail for a report if they said choose to to write one is there going to be another witness to talk about the operation of the carriage house when the theater is not an operation I can speak we could if you feel like you need a little bit more well I I do I mean especially given the fact that we're trying well the applicant is proposing to change or amend conditions in a prior resolution I think there needs to be whether it's this witness or another witness some testimony on the record as to the reasons why and also what that operation is going to look like for consideration by we touched on it but Mike you want to talk a little more about it sure I'm I'm happy to right now we're g set it's in two Rob so there's when the theater is operating it's going to be pretty similar to what happens now yes except there'll be some additional seating correct restaurant okay and and I'm and I'm assuming that because um you're going from 80 seats to 160 seats for the restaurant um the I guess peak time of when people arrive at your peak times when people arrive at the theater for the show that's going to be spread out more because you're going to have more people arriving earlier and therefore there'll correspondingly be less people arriving during that Peak PE Fair statement would you say it might smooth out the the traffic coming in a little if say 40 or 50 more people will arrive earlier right for the um yeah margin it's it's marginal I think it would be marginal because a lot of people whether they are coming to the carriage house for dinner or going downtown for dinner many will park and then walk so I don't see that there's going to be a tremendous amount of uh change in how uh the audience comes and goes for the carriage house or even the main stage with any of these Renovations the carriage house will have a larger capacity but there are a great number of people that are coming downtown for every performance that we do that we'll go to any number of restaurants downtown as well so and they'll par either in our Lots or they'll par downtown and walk up to where we are so I don't fundamentally think any of that will change okay that's when there's a performance correct I think Rob wants to have at least a little more clarity uh there's these two or three week periods when we're not performing and what type of programming are are you the restaurant might be open yes now so we're already doing it and again sort of I guess maybe we shouldn't be but we are um and it includes uh really from an operational point of view uh we have one large dining room that seats about 60 people that's the part of the restaurant that is currently open on nonperformance nights and we're doing murder mysteries trivia nights Cabaret uh we're renting uh that space out for business meetings other functions um it's not quite every night that we're dark but with some some frequency and our goal would be to try to rent it out as much as possible I want to make one correction in the capacities our overall capacity for the building will go up to about 222 I believe um it's and but it's split into four different uh rooms there are two rooms in the oldest part of the carriage house which we're not really touching because of its um it's it's historical um age um and each of those rooms accommodates about 32 people each The Orange Room the the room that's coming down and getting rebuilt currently has a capacity of uh it's over 80 when you count the bar that is what will double downstairs but there's also a room upstairs that we're adding for an additional 72 we will probably not be serving dinner up there at all times when the other parts of the restaurant are open because of the capacity of the kitchen we are going to be increasing the size of the kitchen but not to the point where we could turn over 222 meals a night at one in one sitting and that's the other thing about the restaurant is it is one sitting um when we are in performance people arrive at 5:30 5 5:30 show goes up at 700 or 7:30 and then the restaurant closes um sometimes we do have some people stay after show but that's rare because of the party situation um we don't see a lot of postow activity there might be more in the future and we want to talk about that in terms of the operations we would like to keep the bar open post show you know uh in the future we currently don't do it as a as a matter of practice um on non-performance nights the 80 seat room is where we will do the murder mysteries and the Cabaret and things like that we will have the capacity I suppose to do two different events at that point you could have something in the 80 seat room and something in the 30 seat room uh I can imagine that we might do that but it's still not going to have an overall impact on parking because those nights we're not going to have main stage performances so the parking will all be available and and what about um let's say seatings well you have more than one seating for those what I'm going to call the off nights when the theater is not right performance in all likelihood no and the reason why is that I I can't imagine that we would ever started as a restaurant with multiple seatings on the Dark Nights the theater has tried to do that in the past and it's failed um because it's inconsistent in terms of how what you're conveying to the public certain nights you we have a show going all you can get is the the one sitting um the uh the the what we're doing right now to attract audiences is try to tie the meal to a Performing Arts event and that's what makes us different from Le pergola or Basilico or any of the other restaurants is that you're still coming to Paper Mill for a murder mystery or a cabaret or a jazz artist or a singer whatever and the dinner so it's like a dinner theater kind of combination and that is what is sort of guiding our decisionmaking around how to program the carot so it and it would only be one seating in the event of a a private event would you be able to do it on a night of a show or is that not an option someone to only if you are coming to the show correct but not independently not independently yeah any other questions you hit the magic hour I got one minute I can start my next witness so um we are going to come back okay uh what is I know you have sense emergency here it's it's not mine it's you know Cent client so what when can we bring us back is there any appetite for a special to try to run through the whole thing yeah so um I I would only do special on a regular scheduled night I'm not adding one to the to the schedule in summertime I think it' be a hard time popular so if you have an empty night I have nothing empty until August 19th yeah well it's not empty I have an application on but like it's relatively empty I mean that's about as far as I could go because to you know I would accommodate you but to add a a night when the summertime i i i as you know as you heard it's populating board and I don't want to be in a bad spot where I already have to have one board member get up to date was that the first night that that we had was our a July night no no no I didn't even have room for St Rose on July 1 that's that'll be five minutes I need I have five applications on the 15 a I'm and the 19th know so we'll have hopefully the others 19 on AUST 19 J out okay we might want to tell the other people not to come who else is out on the 19th both you out you're out there I'm okay and you're out well as well correct August yes both AUST okay and when you for you around or no you're you're at 15th of July and the 19th of August so how many are we down on August 19 I don't know I don't know Regina's schedule uh but right now on the 9th of August you're down at least two yeah down three down three sorry down three so um you're short one then one v um I mean I kind of knew this is be there can can we uh can we carry to a short date tell the folks and see if there's another date or you're not I'm all for that um I don't know that we can accomplish it no but we only have a few members of the public here most of them are with our team so there's a there's a lot of I would be willing to try if we can find chairman I don't want to tell you what to do because it's your board and and the summer difficult if we can find another Monday night sorry put them on for aug 5th I'm that's so um I try look I'm highly familiar with the operations of boards of adjustment in the in the SU July 1 I know you're away no you have a full you have you have a full you have yeah July 1 the board members are not gonna show up you could even get a witness or two in on that August date and then finish up try the subsequent date where you likely have more board members and people can catch up oh that's a okay so why don't you put a stand for August 19th we'll see if if if for some reason a night comes up I'll Reen notice to get us on in the scheme of the project it's we can Reen notice so folks we're the chairman will explain it we're going to be August 19th there's not going to be any more notice it's a long shot but if it's a different date you'll get another certified notice but check with e also but most likely August 19th it's going to be the date and you can check with Irene every day send her an email send her an email maybe she'll respond if you got Lu resp okay okay we'll let you know if it's a different day okay but check before to make sure we're going for it's highly unlikely there'll be another day but that's the best we can do enough to do what I normally do so as he mentioned keep an eye keep an eye out on that um this to 19 notice um and um you know take it from there and we have a chunk of that night well actually the other application down people how many have far one yeah the other one and just so there's just the two all right so sh okay for that thank you for your time thank you um any other comments or questions regarding anything else favor wife