we are in accordance with Section Five of the open public meetings act chapter 231 Public Law 1975 we advised that a notice of this meeting was made by cling on the in garding town hall mailing to officially designated newspapers list of meeting dates annually indicating that this meeting would take place at Town call at 700 p.m. on Monday January 8th 2024 you'll do those all right so at this time um we have Oaths of Allegiance and office to administer to uh various board members uh Joseph Crawfield uh as a zoning Board member Gary Rosen as Zoning Board member Priscilla SF who's not here she supposed to be here I'm trying to okay as zoning board alternate number one member and sha Shang Pang as zoning board alternate number two member so I'm going to ask you to each raise your right hand the four or three of you I guess that are here uh repeat after me I state your name you solemly swear or affirm that I will support the Constitution of the United States I will support thetion of the unit St and the constitution of the state of New Jersey and that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same and to the governments established in the United States govern estblished in the United States and in this state St under the authority of the people of people I do further solemly swear or affirm I do further that I will faithfully impartially and justly perform all the duties of the office of Zoning Board member according to the best of my ability congratulations now if you could just give them I they'll have to sign them and then you can um swear that they signed them we can do that jfi yeah I'll just sign are you here I'm here shrew here Amy Lawrence here Gary Rosen here Tru here P here Jessica here here turn at this time I will ask for a you guys have to sign they have sign yes and then nomination for position of chair for 2024 I would like to nominate cig clner as chair of the board second second many seconds would you accept that position sir absolutely I accept that is there any other nominations Joseph Cofield yes shandrew horani yes Amy Lawrence yes Gary Rosen yes reg Tru yes Jess yes two sh P yes congratulations thank you very much you go all right um thank you very much V of confidence and steering the ship for another year uh we're going to be moving on now to the election of the vice chairperson um so at this point I'll take nominations in fact I'd like to move Jessica Glatt as Vice chair so um I'll second thank you very much Joseph Coffield yes shre har yes Amy Lawrence yes Gary Rosen yes Regina TR yes Craig clner yesan P yes next up we have the appointment of the board attorney um and I would like to move Rob Simon as board attorney for for another year um do I have a second I will second that Joseph C yes Shandra har johy yes Amy Lawrence yes Gary Rosen yes Trill yes Jad yes yes and lastly we have the board of adjustment secretary those like to come forward ERS again once again we will be uh I'd like to for secretary second second thank you Joseph Coffield Amy lawren Rosen TR Jessica yes no I didn't ask you if you'd accept the nomination said she she not for the record um next next up we have the resolution of approval of the 2425 annual notice uh if you'll see the meeting dates are in front of you um some carefully going through um can I have a motion to adopt the approval of the annual notes I'll move approval have second I'll second great thank you all those in favor anyone opposed should it be do you want to do roll call it's a resolution so okay should it I don't know do matter let's do roll call why not Joseph Cofield yes shandro her yes ad Lawrence yesos yes yes yes yes uh next up we have approval Amendments of 12423 uh any corrections or changes to those minutes that [Music] circulated I believe everyone except I okay um any corrections or changes to the minutes of 12423 have a motion to uh approve those minutes to approve the minutes a second thank you um all those in favor I anyone opposed all right next we move on to Mor realizations our first one is calendar 39 4323 ran Aurora 20 263 Long Hill Drive in Short Hills um any on this uh shandre Amy Gary Regina Jessica Craig uh any cors or changes if not would one of those uh mentioned like to move forward for motion move to approve the memorialization calendar number 39 47-23 second and second sh her yes Amy Mar Gary Rosen Regina TR Jessica GL yes yes next up we have calendar 3955 23 see approved yes okay uh Candace H 15 dumping Street in Milburn any corrections or changes if not can I have a motion to approve memorialization move approval calendar 3955 second second shandre yes Amy Lawrence Gary Rosen J yes all right welcome everyone in the crowd thank you for bearing with us we're do our housekeeping there um and happy New Year to everyone I go through this list real quick because we have a lot of changes and so on and so forth so I want to make sure everyone's here for the right case and that you're not going to be sitting here all even to find out that case is going to be heard so um as previously noted um calendar 3959 23 which is 50 El with place um that case will be heard on January 22nd 2024 so if you're here for that case which is Prav and T Sara s uh that will not be heard tonight okay it'll be moved to January 22nd 24th uh next up we have calendar 39 3323 which is 38 Addison Drive that application has been withdrawn by the applicant so if you're here tonight on 308 Addison uh zi jingl and Yun Yang that will not be heard okay that application has been withdrawn next up we have calendar 30 3925 23 that is 11 Mount hour rat Road Lucky Express us say that application has been carried to 2524 next up we have calendar so if you're hear that one heard calendar 39 5223 which is 99 Sagamore Naran and Arya hegi that is being carried to 12224 next up you have calendar 39823 that is 20 claremon Drive G that also is being carried to 2224 and lastly we have calendar 39123 which is uh 146 Sagamore Road Amaya Garbo uh that has been carried to April 1 uh meeting of 2024 so tonight we are hearing why those applications will be uh mov with no further notice please keep track of the I'm assuming here on uh for those playing no longer home our viewer um those will be um moved and please go to the uh website for any no further notes but go to the website if you want to see where the future um uh case will take place so tonight we are hearing calendar 39 5923 407 Hobart um 246 Glenn 75 Mars turn plake and 17 wibe all right and we'll do it that order um so first up we have calendar 39 5723 407 Hobart Avenue hrea sari iiz oh I okay you s from ton be the truth the whole truth but the truth your name for the record your name pleas a m i d r e z a s a g h a r i thank you good evening how are you seeing good evening how are you doing good good so thank you for the opportunity to present your case and thank you for all the work you do on behal uh I'm here as the owner of 407 hobot uh we bought this property in 202 2020 but we are a short years resident for last 15 years oh we bought this property initially we thought we're going to demo it build a new house we moved in we fall in love with the property and we want to live in it and restore it and take care of it oh this property originally was built on a 60 acre land as I understand uh the property was divided so I assume our own Neighbors at one point uh were part of this and we don't have a garage and most probably because they had a carriage house and most probably the carriage house was in the house in the back 68 H so we don't have a garage and I have four teenagers we have five cars and it's a mess in the back of the house so we are proposing to add the three car garage here uh I I'm an architect license in New York I don't have a license in New Jersey I did the design or structure I'm sorry you do you do not have a license in I do not have a license in us so I did the design or structural engineer did the calculation and he signs it as the professional of the record we I I did many many different variants and and as catches even as uh detach garage this is the only place that we can put this garage because of the Topography of the land and the way it's lay so when I heard that this building we have a problem with the rear setback I was a little surprised because they very they tailored the property line around this house we have a little green house here and they even did this to be in compliance we have a little drain here they got a eement for this TR I was a little surprised but turn out that the the original building is 3 foot in the setback required setback we have a very very large front yard we need 40 ft we have 160 in the back we need I believe 54 and we have 50.9 this corner of the original building the purple one is currently as the required setback and or purpose Design This section this little red one uh is not not conforming but will not pass the stablished setback it stays in the established setback I even Notch the shape of the building so we don't pass the I put some pictures of photos that you're showing us um photos that you included with the application materials yes so this is I'm looking this is a on G1 drawing four yes of four with the date of October 23rd 202 AB so this is Avenue this is our front yard 160 ft this is our backyard the only neighbor that we have in the back is 68 H your entire backyard is asphalt and is a huge parking lot Greg I think you you came and you saw it's a huge backyard uh huge parking lot I want to remove this parking lck I want to bring or or garage here it helps me to First have a garage second reclaim my backyard have a garden over there need to see come on down here reclaim or backyard shorten my driveway because right now I have to go all around and bring the cars here I bring it here and then I have a very beautiful front yard and a uh Terrace that last two years we never opened the door the main entrance is there because I can't bring anybody there if you you want to come to our front door you have to walk this way if you come with the car you have to go through the kitchen uh the unintended consequence of this design for our neighbor is they're not going to look at our parking lot anymore they're going to have a gone um I think it's design so I don't have a lot to say have any comments or questions for for so the um if this was approved and constructed the property uh at 68 Hemlock Road you're not going to be able to see uh the garage or will it no so so the Asal area now is going to be excavated correct yes it's going to be gone you're put it back to to grasser yes that's correct okay um any thought say notice from visiting a property that um right now I'm assuming that the ashal goes to the property line there or very close to it right here yeah actually no uh if you look at the asphalt is here in this area is go to property line but the driveway is pretty far from right I'm talking more like back area here goes all the way even a little inside their property and we have an easement for that ler piece so do you plan on planting anything across where that where are eliminating we I we planning to put a hedge here okay to divide because right now I know it's just y when we were buying this property I thought they did it for the S snow or or something but I don't know why they did it we have we we you see how it is so yeah we're going to put a hedge over any other questions from board just a question there's a note here and I think this is E's handwriting it says overall Building height must be verified existing of the grades yeah that was that's all they did clear and that you mentioned is in line with the existing structure which is already in line with the established setback um if there's no further questions from from the board I'll open it up to the audience the audience questions regarding this application uh any comments regarding this application then I'll close the public portion uh of this uh uh board members I think it's a very thoughtful design that solves the problem of having elect cars in essentially a parking lot which um you know in our town we want cars garages um not openly displayed so I can support the application I agree I think uh the design is elegant and uh it serves the purpose for taking the cars out adding more green it's actually more additive uh to the neighbor as well as yourself so seems to be a good uh add yeah I would agree I getting cars out of there the headlights everything else going into the neighbor houses and it's it's a total win all the way around uh and I said adding adding more green space um I mean it's amazing that that house is existed for this long without a garage is it's pretty incredible um but unfortunately you know there were a lot of houses with large pieces of property that were spun off and that the the recipient of most of the you know the issues became the initial home um when when all these things were were sort of recast over the year so um I would I would support the application uh do I have a motion in this case make a motion to approve second I [Applause] secondi yes yes yes yes good Lu you thank you very much next up we have calendar 39623 246 FR Avenue our [Music] and thank you for having us I'm gonna take that excuse and use it next like 30 years until ITI exactly just raise your right hand testimony about proceeding to be the truth hold Truth by the truth your names for the record spelling your names Arjun ra a r g n last name r a o Robert Forbes r o f o r bees architect all right well uh thank you for having us today uh I'm Arjun and this is my wife T and we have uh two kids nine and six in the Ving School District um Ving school and also a very hyperactive but lovable dog doer uh we have been in our house for the last six years and ever since we lay eyes on it uh we've been in love with the charm of the property uh we have a view of the River from our sun room U nice large Shady trees in a yard and the reservation right across the road where we like to hike and go running all the time um we really like um being walking distance to downtown uh and we go all the time to restaurants for shopping and we're very lucky that we have great neighbors um our kids best friends are a couple of houses down the block and uh we try to be good uh members of the community we volunteered at our uh kids school and uh that's um the community is a big reason reason why we want to stay here in this town for the long term um uh the only problem is our house is is small and it's not fitting our uh needs anymore my uh daughter's room is really like a nursery sized and she's out growing it uh we have only one bathroom on the second floor and no bathroom on the first floor so that's not going to really work with kids who are going to be teenagers before before we knew it so we need we need more space and that's why we uh brought in uh Robert here to help uh design an addition for us the proposed Edition that you have in front of you gets us a lot of functionality we need uh it adds u a a larger bedroom for my daughter a master bathroom for us so the kids don't come knocking all the time and on the first floor we finally have a bathroom and a guest bedroom so that my when my parents visit visit they don't have to uh climb the stairs um as we went through this um addition Pro the design process uh one thing that's really important to both of us is given like the the history of our house it's um nearly 100 years old and being in a very old part of town we wanted to stay true to the original um architecture uh make make an addition that blends seamlessly with the original design and you know doesn't Stand Out negatively um in in the neighborhood um and that's why the design you're proposing we just are building enough to satisfy what we need uh we not this is not about maxify maximizing every potential square footage we could get based on the ratios we are allowed but rather building a very uh uh tasteful Edition so you know that's why uh we're here for your help in uh helping us uh build this addition which I hope is uh aesthetically pleasing not just for ourselves but also um for the neighborhood and with that I'll turn over to ro to walk through the technical asps all right good evening everyone good evening uh your qualifications for the bo yep sure no problem so I am a licensed architect I graduated from NGIT in 2007 with a bachelor's of architecture became licensed in the state of New Jersey in 2014 uh I've been practicing here ever since um licens is in good standing I've been before this board before but it's been a little while that sounds good your qualifications are accept thank you so we have 246 Glen hav it's a lot nine lock 1304 it's in the R5 Zone it's a a unique lot if you visited the site it's like you feel like you're pulling up to like a park-like setting as you kind of walk over the stream um that's on the site it's an oversized lot it's like 2,985 square feet but even though it's oversized we kind of have this hardship because of the streams that are on the site the building is pushed back away from those streams and our additions are also being built away from those streams um so if you actually look at what the buildable area is on the site it's only about 13,000 square feet right so we have kind of all this area that we can't build um arent spoke about how we're not trying to build a oversized house for this lot we are trying to kind of be sensitive to this park L setting so just as before I kind of walk into the plan I just want to be mindful that um we are very nonsaturated we're only proposing 8.7% of building coverage 14.3% of f where 30% is allowed lot coverage is only 13.4% or 35% is allowed so we're maintaining a lot of the natural features that are on the site so if we look on at the existing um survey or site plan you can see these streams that are kind of coming off of Glenn Avenue the site is accessed from Brookside Drive via easement to a decaps garage where you then enter the site part of what we're trying to do is create um a little bit more parking space for them so we are proposing to add a parking space by that detached garage a new mudro a new eating area a first floor bedroom and then some new second floor space which I'll I'll walk you through so here here's the Brookside Drive access coming in on to the garage we have that new parking space we're adding we have a mudro that we enter in pantry a bathroom and a guest bedroom for their parents we're holding the required first floor setback of 12 feet for this first floor addition so that's all conforming we're renovating this kitchen adding a small eating area access to a rear de all conforming on the first floor no variances on the first floor as we come up to the second floor there's existing three bedrooms on the second floor two on this left hand side which are remaining really unrenovated there's a a small primary Suite they all share a bathroom up here um so we're taking over that primary Suite to move the whole bathroom into that area adding over that first floor addition with a new primary suite and uh new bathroom and adding back that bedroom so there'll be four bedrooms upstairs um this is where the um variance comes into play which I I'll look at on the the elevation but where you have the 16 ft required at 32 feet the angle we are beginning to violate that right in this area show you so here you can see that House was built in 1925 it's a Dutch Colonial it's got the Gamel roof we're trying to continue that Gamel roof and it's that little triangle there that's creating this sidey yard stuff back there so you can see us maintaining that gamble roof we're setting the roof down it's lower than the main house and we also then continue that roof design around the back side so you can see the violation again on she 6 again that is the violation right so we're very careful about massing this building um again it sits lower than the partner violation sits lower than the main house I did put together an exhibit which I'd like to show you this is not part of the before you do that can you just go back to your first sheet and show us on the survey where the deviation is in relation to the adjacent property most impact go back to the first page the survey the survey so the deviation is occurring I don't want mark this for you but it's occurring right about there where that little angle angle angle is happening if you also and I'll show you on the tax map these are very irregular Lots because that's what I was going to ask so it's the encroachment is closest to to what's identified as Lot 10 right that's correct y okay is that and you're saying it's a is it a side you're saying it's a side side yard so how did you determine that that's the side yard that's what I'm trying to help you with well so Glenn Avenue is the front yard okay okay because even though your access is through Brookside even though our access is through Brookside through an e the front are this understand okay thank you so the this is the the house closest in question but as I show you on the exhibit the tax map the lots are very irregular and the road is kind of wrapping and our house is set way back from the other building so it's not like these houses are all stacked up next to each other and we're creating these kind of walls of facades right the buildings are all moving around a lot so there's tons of natural like light air ventilation that it's not being blocked by anything that we're doing again preserves that Park like so this is the exhibit that I prepared which I need to Mark it's not part of I'm going to mark that A1 um is there a date for that exhibit it was made today January 8 2024 so this is a a little exercise well let me start this is an existing photo of the house this is a tax map from from uh the Downs Maps just showing the site showing the stream showing the irregularity of the lots that we're talking about then we went through this little exercise um when we were designing this because again that we were very concerned about trying to maintain the the Dutch Colonial um feel of the house and and be pretty cohesive with the audition we originally tried to avoid aarian which is avoidable with simply modifying this roof line but by doing that in our opinion the building actually looks bigger because it's got almost a flat roof on it and is really out of context with the architecture of the building so from the street it seems to really stand up more the addition so we're really concerned about what it looked like from the street so here you can see the addition with the gamble roof as we're proposing here's the side view that would be without it so that conforming that would be conforming so really the only variance is occurring in the attic space um and we feel that it actually helps to bring the mass of the building down um so again that that's really the gist of this proposal it's a variance of 2.8 feet at its worst condition as it's falling away from you in the middle of the building um yeah that's that's really it uh any questions for uh Mr just on your site plan um you have a not deck and something Co yes there a like a small um pool that's going to be sitting in the deck Yes again all conforming on the deck on the deck in like flush into the deck it'll sit flush not not above not above the deck it's almost like the pool's on the ground and the deck is built around it and and where is the home on Lot 10 that would potentially be most impacted so the home on Lot 10 so we did perform an average setback analysis of this which is in your packet on sheet 11 even if you get us approximation I have it exactly it's number 250 Glenn Avenue 252 must be 46 50 so that is setback 79 ft from the from the road again it's it's it's basically it's it's like it's it's like in this area roughly right but but how how far is it from the common property one I don't I don't have that distance no can you approximate or you can um it's pretty significant it's not very close it's it's more than 15 feet away I would say it's from from the property L yeah I would say it's more than 15 feet away from the property L thank you where's that oh there you go my partner Tim must help me out there with that so it's 40 feet to the we're 40 feet in between our buildings it's going to the corner to that's the word to to next to the 40 says 40 feet to adjacent house yeah that's he's saying it's he's speaking he's doing it related to the AC compressors that's why he's that's why he did that he's doing it for the AC compressors thank you Bu from the compressors two those are just shrubs box skips 12 compressors just two compressors and again all this is conf um any other questions um any questions from Bo I just a quick question does this ever flood I always because I it's was impressive to me when I wow there's no actually has six years has not flooded even during Ida we didn't have any issues wow it looks scary because the water in the river goes by really fast but the river is pretty like bed is pretty low and the flood zone is the it's a flood Rel Zone flood Rel Zone it's a flood relief zone so even yeah so even on the fale maps like our actual property is not in the flood zone flood zone is stop short of proper okay and your neighbors did they flood it all you you would know that they have um any other questions any questions from the audience regarding this application any comments from the audience regarding this application anything else Mr fors nope that's all I close the public portion uh of the application MERS thoughts I'll go first I think this is I think this is really well thought out um you know when when the applicant came up and said they're trying to build a property that is what they need to me that sort of resonates with how this is done um it's it's a mindful application seeing the comparisons of what would conform versus what's proposed it is truly the sales job because the house really does much better going for this so I actually give you credit for coming here today for that small variance as opposed to the the the easy way out because you know obviously it's delaying your application and so on and so forth but it really is going to create a much better final product and um you know the way that house is loated as they visited the property it sits substantially behind the house to its right if you're staring at the property so it's really not invading any of the light or space or air of of that home to the right so I think it um and there's plenty of vegetation on that size and very big trees so I think it would uh this this site can easily accommodate the relas saw so I would support the application I would just add um and just um kudos to you for wanting to preserve the architecture and wanting to keep it you know in the character of the neighborhood and the streetcape um and everything else and seeing the Dutch Colonial and appreciating the Dutch Colonial architecture and not wanting to do anything to change that so AG do we have a motion a second second Joseph CFI yes shre yes yes sorry iing on this way on the on the side on the M okay that's that's after this one we have 750 Mars turn plate I got more for you I got [Music] more chairman hopefully I won't be your first gavl of the New Year I'm missing to try it out hope to avoid that yeah just get your exhibit pass down and'll I get one coming around these are we don't have these in our [Music] correct ready chairman Richard skolnick on behalf of the applicant Short Hills gymnastics LLC I have the proprietor for some very brief testimonies his name is Al notar Nia it's a signage application we're going in the space that used to be YB Fitness the relief is relatively minor if you'll bear with me we don't have a planner here tonight so uh I'll try to explain things we appreciate that uh and uh and hopefully that'll be sufficient given the uh scope of the application so uh for signage there's two main parameters you get 20% of the sign face and we comply with that and your letters can be two feet in height and our individual letters on the uh proposed gymnastics and then n ninja Center they're slightly less than two feet the letters themselves comply but when you stack them it gets you to four feet and that's what we're here for for that relief uh to sort of Stack gymnastics and ninja Center plus the star feature the star feature is a little bit bigger that sort of Insignia that they would like to have so um we think there's some benefits to the public uh but primarily will rely upon the relief and the nature of the C1 variants we have a shopping where the building is set back and in addition if you look at this exhibit which if I could Mark as A1 on second before we do that just just R explain when when you're talking about stacking triggers the variant just explain first what that is so the board understands okay well as you can see from The Proposal we have gymnastics and right underneath it and ninja center right so the fact that're they're together is triggering the need for the VAR that's the uh interpretation of the zoning officer so while the letters can be two feet and we meet that because they're stacked you take a box around the whole thing and that's the the main part of the relief other than the star Insignia which is it itself larger so so explain before you get going what what are we marking and this A1 is uh is a mockup uh a photo simulation if you'd have it of the actual building with the proposal well hold on second so what I'm what I'm looking at right here it out with is an email from you to you from me to me you jary this does not have the stat right I'm it does not that you have in your package I understand that you have in your package okay one what is this this is an exhibit I use to explain certain items it's it's a it's a rendering it's it's A1 is a a rendering with today's date yes if we could call it that and what we're trying to show here is that as you're aware the building itself uh has an indentation so to speak the building itself does not have a straight fasia part of the building building is set back does everybody get that so we we we could eliminate this variance by putting the an ninja Center over on the other part of the building on this part just that is an unusual this is a C1 variance there is an unusual ual condition there's an unusual condition what can I tell you this is as as you may know our our categories the C1 and C2 categories for Relief are not set up for signage in reality it's a very tricky fit to to explain why you would need a a sign variance in terms of this statutory criteria but what I'm saying is just like the application before us what we have proposed with the stacking is a better planning alternative than compliance we have uh we think that makes sense we have sort of an unusual condition here where the we we could have gymnastics and ninja Center all the way across that eliminates the variant but it doesn't make sense given the way the space is and the building being set back well would you still need a uh a variance for your um your star just for the star right just for the star yes it's this is this doesn't account for the store so so real quick your leasable space now is basically all the paper Windows correct is that is that yes the paper Windows as shown on a paper what is A2 A2 is some examples to hit the negative criteria of what we have in the newspaper excuse me what we have in the area what we have in the area you took took these some examples Justin and I was a combination okay of myself and Justin uh who's involved in the ownership group to give you a sense that signage in the immediate area mostly in Milbourne but then we also have uh I think one from uh Springfield the Wawa we we don't have a a perfect system here we we do have stack signs we have lettering that's larger uh you know quite large and so we have the Walgreens down the street you could see they're stacked some of the lettering is is quite large we didn't go and measure the size of the lettering but I think the board uh has been past the Walgreens it's pretty large lettering we did some at the mall which is a little different but you could see Ruth Chris steakhous is you know three Legal Seafoods is also a stack system the Wawa's in Springfield but it's bigger they have a logo Primo Marcato that's over at the mall but tiger Schulman's is uh nearby here two lines of lettering some pretty large letters in our shopping center European Wax Center they're they have stack letters the mayis discount stack letters and a logo so uh also down the street from us Short Hills photo and Custom Framing stacked with logos and John so it's not a it's not a perfect situation we we think we're close to compliance again we meet the 20% so we're not not asking for a variance on that the lettering itself other than the star chairman is uh is all in the two feet but we Mak sense to stack it and my clients a new B you know bringing a new business in uh they like uh they like the site obviously uh it is setback from moris uh but they you know a lot of people drive by so signage is important so so let's talk about that in terms of the setback for Mar turn Pik it's compliant right do you know off hand like what the requirement is versus what's what's here no I don't okay but it's it's a good distance back we have that information what 220 ft so come on up let's get you war in do sar from testimony about to G proceeding be the truth all truth the truth yes I do your name for the reford AL Monona just spell your last name n o e a r n i c o l a okay and Al could you just tell them a little bit about the business and what you're trying to do here what you like to site um yeah we um we build gymnastics and ninja centers for kids and uh mostly kids uh High School age and younger and uh I have several centers been doing for 30 years and we heavily rely on driveby traffic to be able to see the center we ask customers how'd you hear about us and they tell us oh we drive by we your sign so this um this rule of the twoot high wood letters works for us but once you have that other rule of uh if you stack them then it's four feet high and that's that you need a variance for that's where we're coming into where we can't make the letters one foot that we comply with that because would be barely visible from the road especially 220 feet back so um we definitely need to have uh the word gymnastics and ninja Center and gold medal which is our branding and the star is our branding as well to kind of stand out to help us with our big investment that we're putting into to build this Center to bring uh our business to the area chairman not that more complicated you know there's this complication because of the setback of the structure where you could see and you know theoretically we could comply but you know that wouldn't be such a good alternative and there's this a practical difficulty here as well given the structure so what part of the sign is illuminated uh illuminated the whole thing is eliminated so the gold medal the star the gymnastics and the ninja Center whole yes and and you know we feel it's in character with the other signs that's why we have these these photos in um any questions from the board um couple questions um how big is the sign that is right here that's shown in your I can't quite read it but I think it's said athletic equipment business yeah we didn't take measurements smaller of those um you know to be honest but yeah you know it's it's sort of a difficult thing to do oh you're on the the plan package that the one that was in our packet yeah oh the Johnson one um proposed signage yeah going to be a little bit smaller good question yeah they have a lot of less they have a lot less square footage of the building percentage wise but the sign does look smaller so you would agree it's smaller and aquaox did I read something about aquatx is there going to be an aquatx there too true they're uh building the space next door to us and do you think they're going to want to sign also this big or you don't know oh good question I don't know yeah where's the aquatat space in if I'm looking at the um materials that were submitted with the application if you see the uh if you're looking at our sign that we're proposing there to the left they're going to start on the far left of the building and they where basically where those papered windows um end that's when they start that's when they start and what is that it's a Swim School for Children yeah they putting up that there's one on 22 in Springfield that's a model now that's a model uh taken up to your office space because as we know you can't compete with Amazon so you got to have experiential things are you affiliated with aquatat no no okay so they're gonna have to comply not sure they're gonna have to comply and then last question how big was the sign for yd Fitness before or and can do before and it was can do y Fitness how large was that good question I do you remember because I took up the whole series do you know the answer we could have sworn in yeah stand up come he Liv in Thea about to proceeding post times true I do name for the record Justin ban B is and boy o ho n can you helped out with the pictures yes back and forth I'm a resident in South Orange um familiar with this sign it was for that one yes it is over it is over two feet for sure with the the stacking it's the Stacked one right so the question was prior to this business a proposed business it was why Fitness and then part of that was it was over two feet but it was at least two feet for sure but not stacked it was one line YB Fitness yeah was that the question yes so you you believe the letters were over the letters themselves were over two yes from from a visual perspective I did not measure them though yeah did you do you not well it's on the internet actually I didn't measure it either how I don't know oh okay thank you question yeah I have a question um just sticking with di yes from the top of the star to the bottom of ninja Center that's 4827 in or is that more than 48 or is that the 63 that's the 63 I believe the star the whole thing is high just the star all the lettering conforms star 63 and a half right the top of the star from the bottom of all the lettering is 5 63 in we have it as oh from the top of the star to the bottom of the star to the bottom of the star we have that Dimension that's 63 just the star so the bottom of the star is also the bottom of and ninja center right correct it's the bottom of the star it looks like the top of the star is a little bit over the gymnastics height right right both so you would think also again you don't own that whole Frontage on that bump out piece so you think that if some like aquat tots or whoever comes in there would kind of have to match your height think well aquatx is just one word I think for some reason you know our business requires all these words I don't know looks like it's a and aqua is going to be 5 high right well they'd have to come in front bance out they would have to put your sign on something like this have to come and just so we're clear your your your proposal out you know you're the less C of the space correct you don't own the property correct and aquatat is also going to be a l c of the space right yes but essentially I'm just trying to get like the leasable space squared away here their space their doors actually on the other side depressed side of the building correct correct so okay so I mean obviously they put their sign over that or on the depressed piece but they are a lot smaller than us as far as spray footage goes there's not another ten here to the left this is aqu so aquatat would like this way gymnastics that's it so really just three tenants right is Johnson you correct so you you didn't um coordinate anything with aquatat in terms of where your actual um signage location is going to be relative to their signage um well I coordinate with a landlord but not offat directly now I guess my question is if you're gonna put right if you're gonna if you're going to put it in depress area then you have this big space if you're not going to put here you're going to put it here sign is be it's going to be off center it's going to be far to the right yes is their sign and we don't know what their sign is going to be necessarily but if their sign is on the compressed part SP part which they're going to be using yours is going to be all the way off to the right it's going to look a little funny I'm pretty sure they're GNA want to be on that front face but on the left side yeah and we would be on the right side sort of need to otherwise yours is GNA look right yeah we could talk to Mr mandle bam Kenny Mand B owns this shopping center they were in for the planning board they went for parking at the planning board I don't the zoning officer said do signage at that point but I told them related to me they got s approval both of them did they came together so we think it's reasonable given what's out there on Mars given that we have this unusual condition related to the depressed part of the structure where if it wasn't depressed we would just extend the letters and we would eliminate part of the variants other than for the uh logo sign but yes it's larger than the two feet but it's a star and other folks have identifying characteristics and it's really it while the star violates the two foot it's very limited in terms of its overall area so we think we have something reasonable we have a businessman coming to town taking space it's been empty for a couple of years now and uh we think the board could certainly take notice of what's going on in in the area we ask for a favorable vote um will there be signage up by like I think there's a bunch of like at list the stores that are in that shopping center will your name be on that that list of signs that are in the shopping center yes that's actually to the far right by the um end of the other end of the building but yeah that will be on that like a pylon sign yeah it's like a list of what's shopping center so there will be a secondary name there um and will this be illuminated 247 or at night time I guess you probably wouldn't have the lights on at night the day in our C do we normally cut it out at like 1 o'clock to save energy so it would be off by one yeah and um thank you thanks any other questions for the board any questions question from the audience regarding this application any comments from the audience regarding this application close public Bo number thoughts I'll go I feel like it's too big I mean it's bigger than Johnson it we don't know what aqua talkx is going to do it is bigger than at least from what I can see on the internet it looks like it's considerably bigger than what can do had can do and yd Fitness had a stripe a paint stripe and then the letters were inside that so it might have looked bigger but the letters themselves looked to be smaller than this um I think that the reason there is a um an ordinance is to get some uniformity and signage along and with with three businesses right next to each other um I think we need some coordination of this of the size otherwise you're going to have like a mishmash I think could be a lot I also think it's a very long name um although I will say I appreciate that there's business going in there it's a great place for business and certainly a need in the community but I think it's too big any other comment I don't know I I I um I don't think it's I think when you when you see what it looks like when driving by I think this this is setb quite a way um you know I to me it maybe I would prefer it a little smaller but I don't feel that it's inconsistent with the space and what it takes to see the location from B have 124 whatever that is I it doesn't troubled me enormously so great I think this building I mean whoever designed the fa on this thing it's cooky I mean the top part's bigger than the bottom part it's the strangest faci when you look at this thing um and the fact that it is so far back off the road it needs something some sort of scale like I think the Johnson's too small I me when you drive down 124 you could barely read it and I realize it may or may not comply I don't remember if they came in front of us but um you certainly can't read any of the pieces that are on the smaller part of the building as it steps back further yet so I think in order to have it more in scale with the fact it's face is so huge on top it's bigger than the windows portion which is I said bizarre looking but um I think I think it actually adds more balance by having a scale this aign that has a little more mass to it so um I I I have no issu with let me add from a legal perspective that you know when we look at signage um from bu variant standpoint you know a big consideration um PR alluded to it is safety you have to take into consideration the fact that this is mors Turnpike you know it's not a 25 M hour roadway but you're going slow and you have the time to kind of look over to your left or your right and see the signage and see what it is and and how it's registering with you as to what the type of business is it's pretty quick you know given the the permitted speed limit and going let's say five miles out over the permitted speed limit and and accidents we know from a planning parland accidents happen when you're like what what is that where where is that and how is that relation so um you know that's something at least for the board to consider and also that the fact that the pylon is located so far uh I guess to the to the south of the property um that I mean really reading a pylon is impossible anyway um especially with that many tenants on it so I think it's in scale with the bu so I would I would support yeah I I could support it as well I think it is far from the road um and you know to your point Rob I think when you're going at that speed U you know glimpse of it could be visible when it's sort of more mass Massy uh so I think from that perspective too and and from you know having this you know new lesie coming into you know I think from commercial sense it makes sense so we appreciate that and I think I be supportive with the application too um motion this Cas approve second second Joseph Coffield yes shrew har yes Andy Lawrence yes Gary Rosen yes Regina trit no Jessica glad yes yes thank you the pro buiness thank you for your time and lastly this evening we have application 39 6223 Charles and Margo Mullin at 17 this raise your right hand please s proceeding be the truth truth the truth yes the Chuck MS m l l NS Dave Rosen RM okay go ahead all right great we um Mar my wife Margo uh and myself I'm you can call me Chuck you know my foral in Charles we moved into to Short Hills in 2009 we bought uh three Claremont Drive uh about two years later we did we were here to meet you guys there's some new faces um and we did a a full uh full Rena on that house um it was a very small house with two bedrooms upstairs and no bathroom um and uh we really did a we attempted to keep it uh in line with what the neighborhood was at that time and uh got a lot of compliments on it over time we had three children who all started in Glenwood one's now in middle school and we needed more space and so we've moved to uh windir um we've been here for about two years now and we're ready to make some changes um the reason for us being here today is there's a a very small corner of the house that is a front yard setback when I will let our expert Dave talk about the the details of that um but happy to answer any questions and hand it over to you if you'd like to qualifications um I've appeared before this board many times and many of the other in most of the surrounding communities uh and elsewhere um uh cuse University uh n graduated 19 80 license in 883 started uh what's now Rosen Kelly Conway in 1986 and um um still in still doing it and you're you're uh uh I'm licensed and it's yes thank you PA accept it thank you so as as Chuck mentioned uh we're doing a variety of things on this property 17 windir is in the R4 Zone which assumes a lot size of of about 20,000 Square fet this one is 47,000 and change almost 48,000 so it's a considerably comfortable size for the lot but the house when it was built in 1986 was built fairly close to the road where the front of the house is parallel with the road but then as you look at the house on the right side there's an angled uh Wing that contains the garage and a secondary entrance and so what we're planning to do on the whole rest of the house everything is compliant but there's a small section where in order to add a third garage Bay uh which is permitted in the zone we need three variances and the three variances are for the front yard setback and I I'll cover each of these a little bit more um the impervious surface in the front yard and the fact that it's a front-facing garage so I don't know if you can all see it it's difficult to see the front of the house and all everything I'm showing you you have you have copies of it's difficult to see the front facing garage because it's really just at one there's a a semicircular driveway and from the one from uh from the one that's a little more up fill as you come around you can't see the garage at all because it's screened behind this spruce tree then as you come down um wind miror you get a glimpse of a portion of it and then at the other driveway you get a very sharp angle toward it you can see a portion of it it's not really until you come into the property that you can really see that you can really see that so the way that the property is organized this is on V1 I'm going to just reference this drawing and this one and in order to make them a little more visible I just blew those up a little bit so this is a new technically a new document but it's unchanged from the image on V1 which which is the new do this is this just blown up at a little bit bigger scale so so it's a little more visible all right we don't we don't need to mark it separ it's the same and it's the same um unch everything yes is this um is this like turn in the way for anybody I'm glad that but I'll just hold it so the main body of the house is here the house extends out on the angle as you can see to the lower right on this drawing and this area this rect angle and here is the third garage bed we are also unrel no variants needed but we're extending the back of the existing two-car garage by two feet in order to be able to make the garage deeper because right now most of the cars end up in the driveway and the goal is to get three cars into the garage because it has this semicircular driveway the front we wanted to get the cars out of there and into the garage so that it's a little more attractive even though you can't see it very well from the street it's still a better it's a better way to do it it's just nicer uh for for the Mullin and also for their neighbors now the three variances are go in reverse order the the garage faces the street meaning if you came straight out you would eventually cross that front property L it's not an it's on an angle so it's not exactly straight out and in fact on this block there are other houses that have front-facing garages they may be two cars three cars and even four car garages just out of the nine houses on this block five of them have front-facing garages and two of the remaining one uh remaining ones do two but those those two are detached garage so I'm not counting those but in any case the front-facing garage is the first one uh a second one is that there are two front yard setbacks in the Ordinance one is a minimum of 40 feet we meet that uh because the the planned uh front yard uh setback is 42.6 but there's also a prevailing uh front yard setback and that's just over 50 ft and that's it's 50.2 the current house is 50.1 so what happens is we end up with a little triangle at the front of this garage that is within that prevailing front yard setback but still 2 and 1 half ft behind the minimum setback that's usually required in this Z and all of this is due to the fact that the house was put where it was where it's located on the property when it was initially built and it makes the most sense to build the new garage the third garage adjacent to the existing ones so the third variance has to do with the impervious surface within the front yard and it may seem odd but we are actually reducing the statistic slightly by just just about 1% but this statistic changes in part due to the point that's me that it's measured from it's measured from the corner of the old garage or the new garage so it's not it's not like we're substantially reducing the paving or anything but the statistic is reduced by 1% it's supposed to be a maximum of 30% the existing is 41 in change and the proposed is 40% and and change so just showing you a couple of things I have this drawing on V1 which shows the neighborhood and it has some numbers on it those are not the street numbers but I just wanted to identify uh some of the aspects here yeah if you want to hold that that great um this board shows photos of several of the other houses so that there's a house at the cor we have that in our yes yes so it's a house I but it's all one block the whole this I've only covered this one block of windir and there are nine houses the the first one at the corner of West Lane has three uh three garage doors facing directly to the street um uh across the street from that is a house with fourcc car garage exposed to the street and then we have some other ones too and diagonally across the street there are three and this one is actually adjacent but the the garage faces uh Lake View so those houses out of the nine houses on the Block this is the mullen's house this is the one that faces Lake View this one has the three cars facing this way this has two cars it's sort of it's the side of the house but since the road bends around they face directly toward the um theet they're almost directly opposite where the garage is on the mullen's house uh going up toward the corner of West Lane four uh fourcc car garage here three car garage here these other two have detached structures that face front but they're detached so I'm not uh I'm only dealing with the attached ones there's actually just one house on the Block that doesn't have its garage door somehow facing the street so it's not like this is uh disruptive to the character of the neighborhood or anything and because of this screening on the mullen's property even the existing two-car garage this is just at the break uh because there's there's one Gap in the uh the Landscaping across the front so it makes sense to add this third uh garage Bay all of the other statistics for the property are conforming mainly because the property is is more than double the size that it's supposed to be so that lot coverage which is allowed to be 35% is 23 and we're adding a small fraction to that but it's still 23 3.8 I don't want to bore you with too many more statistics building coverage is we're about nine where 14 is permitted and floor area ratio we're 15 and a half on this property um well short of the 26% so it's not a matter of whether the property can handle it it's really just the way that the the house where the house was originally located on the property and uh just being able to do something that makes the most sense on V3 there's a floor plan ignore the dash lines which are referencing some other things but it is just out of this whole house it is just this triangle um which is causing these these variances question so in terms of talk to us about this deviation regarding the front yard coverage so I see on your V1 you have this what it's identified as an existing driveway going off the side of the property it's located in the front yard so talk to the board about how much of that existing uh driveway as identified on V1 um is causing the need for the impervious coverage front yard variant versus the triangle and for the garage for the third for the bay that you just described actually let me go one step further on kind of got was thinking so right now your your deviation is existing at 10% over your your front yard the problem is I don't know what that number is because you're allow 30% you're at 40 existing um but since I don't have the front yard calculation it's hard to figure that out but uh my guess is it's probably somewhere in the neighborhood of uh your 28 I think your coverage right now is 2800 at 40% you're going to 3400 I think it was uh yeah the the front yard impervious surface um yeah I have that it's on on one of the drawings here um yeah so you're currently 2839 going to 3500 okay problem is I don't know what the 30 is so along the lines of what what Rob was alluding to if you were to eliminate that to eliminate you're you're referring to eliminating some or all of this all that what's that what's the GI back there in order to try to get this front yard more in line with the standard um mean you're you don't have a scale on this I was playing on the scale the scale is not for that it looks about 50 feet or so by I don't know yeah not all of it is going to count that's what I was just looking some of it's yeah some of it's behind the facade so right so maybe like 40t of it it looks like there's about on average probably uh 30 say 30 feet right 25 to 30 feet from um because it there's 42 A2 from the property line to the corner of the new garage right and so it looks like we would give up uh probably maybe 30 feet of that on average by about 10 feet wide that's 10 that's 300 square feet that would count um it's we would probably if you can't get to the back part do you have any feelings about this well I mean right now it just goes I'm not sure who uses that does anybody use the other driveway down yeah the one that goes down behind the garage that's we're moving it it's really for when yeah yeah it's just overflow when we have guests that's what it is and the pool is back that way so the convenience of having folks come over to the pool they also can drive down there that's the the other thing just in in talking about why the driveway itself is so big is that there's it's not that great to park on windir windir has very deep um gutters on the side and the roadway itself is quite narrow two cars can pass yes but if somebody's parking there it's it becomes essentially a on Lane uh on lane road yeah and many times if a truck is there you have to go around the other way there's not even enough to to cross through right and and so it appears here that the driveway is about the same width maybe even a little bit wider than the uh than the street because the street is question what's the give back if you elate that what are we talking about within the front yard you have at least 50 foot of depth there okay to to the front F of the house so it's 50 feet 50 feet to the existing yes right plus the times the length and width you know so it's 50 feet times call it you know eight feet you know it's probably a little wider than that call it 10 but so that be 500 square feet right where would that put you then in closer to getting into your compliance in your front yard uh let me let me just see if I can get an approximation uh on that closer so there's probably um 7500 it probably takes is about 7500 square feet or so 50 feet deep about 150 ft wide maybe it's a little more on the existing calculation and I'll get you the second half of that in one second when we bring the house forward the calculation is based on the the the closest part of the house so it's a slightly different calculation but let's say that that's 6,000 square F feet or between six and seven when it's done if we gave up uh 600 square feet I'm trying to get the numbers to align a little better if it was 6 ,000 in the front and if we gave up 600 that's uh that's 10% of that area gets us a lot closer to conforming we would not actually get that far just because part of it is shared with the driveway coming out well yeah I mean so you have to add some of it back yes some of eliminate all right it's not feasible um to get back while keeping the the uh the driveways are closer to conf uh to one car width but there is room for parking so that right now the cars tend to some when visitors are there the cars tend to stack in the driveway each time I've been over there uh I've I've parked in the driveway there's there's no place to park safely not just for myself but for anybody else um the street and that's why there is this this more extensive driveway there any other horseshoe driveways in the neighborhood I didn't see any looking at that no I don't have them on this there are a lot of different configurations of driveways because some of them this one is for example is much longer so is this one that comes comes back the garage is here and this one I think the garage is all the way back so there and then some of the other ones are just sort of 40t and there's the garage than that drawing you have up there yes are any of those set back now are they any of them Beyond 50 ft or under 50 ft uh yeah 50 feet is the average so some are in front and some are behind on that on that picture right there which on are L well the house on the corner of Lake View is closer than 50 feet um and the house on the corner of West Lane is closer and I think that well I know that the house that's on the angle at the turn that one is much closer um the others look like they're pretty similar this one may be slightly closer I I don't know you don't have any hard for that right just looking at correct yeah I'm just looking at it graphically on the photo I do have yeah even the engineer drawing doesn't uh doesn't show the other properties and and their setbacks so I'm just going off the aerial photo and approximating uh to see what distances they look like yeah the engineer drawing doesn't do show anything else the um the main body of this house is 70 uh 73 ft back but it's just that angle Garage in the way that it was originally designed that puts it closer so when I look at this is if this is the 50 Feet this one is certainly closer this one looks a little bit closer this one looks about 50 feet this is much closer this looks a little bit more a little bit more and a little bit less get the you mention you have distances from the the street those homes right yes I don't know whether we have the ones across the street let me just see what the engineer drawing has on that yes okay in the upper corner the upper right corner prevailing front yard setback so the ones that I mentioned it it's it's pretty consistent with what it looks like uh and so they're prevailing the one on the um no they don't even but that that is the corner one so that's 47 then 54 65 which is this house then 34 and change would be side right you know where front the front that that house faces on Lake here yes so the front's on lake so that6 set that's really well I think that it's considered a front because it's because it faces a a a public Street actually this one is not the house on the corner oh yes it is I'm sorry that's the house on the corner of West Lane so these on this side there are the five houses on that this side of um this side of windir going from West Lane to Lake View this the two Corner houses are the closest and are less than the prevailing this house the the mullen's house is within an inch of the prevailing and these two are a little bit farther back so getting back to to Rob's question about that piece what would you think the pickup is in square footage for that piece of over there um for the with the statistic of the impervious surface in the front yard I would say that we would probably pick up somewhere around about half of that so say about 300 maybe it's 350 square feet something like that so if again just working on real broad Strokes if it's about 6,000 square feet that's in the zone in front of in front of the farthest forward part of the house if that 6 ,000 Square F feet that would be about 5% right which would which would then take our existing number of 41% and drop it down not just to the 40 that we have but perhaps another 5% or so right down to 35 I suspect that it's going to be a little bit higher than that because I'm really parking some of this stuff right what do you feel well the other thing that we have to consider is is when our guests come in they walk back that way to go to the pool so we would have to have a walkway or something I would imagine because people will travel back to the backyard that way right so that would be more Hardscape too that would be a path at least I would think yeah I'm just trying for it's just TR to see where sure makes sense yeah the the additional space in the garage would make up for the space that you lost back here like trading it out well I'm just I'm I'm really for numbers trying to get there's only us here nobody else here yeah get involved yeah what's what's the um on the Horseshoe what's the width of the driveway approxim um I probably varies a little bit just to give a general idea um I would say that at the at the wide part it's about 20 feet I don't know if it's 18 or 22 it varies because it's not it's not perfectly the same but that that's about what it is because it's it's comfortable to park a car and get out on either side and you can drive past it and you can drive past it yeah not when all the doors are open but it's not like you pull the car right up against the Curve when you twist your ankle getting out of the driver's side so it it feels like it's about 20 feet it's less at the two driveways where they come out to the road but um the width there is really more so you don't go into those gullies and get the car stuck you want to keep it yeah if we can oh yeah yeah should just for number purpose said whatever let's see what the board recommends or what their thoughts are but yeah when you say you want to keep it what what you keep I want to well preserve that extra piece on the side um all right any other testimony no I think that covers it unless there are any other questions so there any questions from the board so what's the depth of the garage right now you said you're going to add more the garage is about 20 feet deep right now and we were adding about 2 feet it's 20 to 21 and we're adding two feet so that the the full size uh it's a Suburban but it's it's called Yukon XO and that so the Suburban can really get in without having to have a tennis ball hang down so you hit it you know just did exactly the right distance so the garage door can close because what has happened is that that vehicle is left out in the driveway and we want to get that put away and another one and then a third because they all they're not all out here all the time the regular cars can fit in the garage but we just want to get all of them in any other questions um let the record show that there's no one else in the audience regarding any questions or comments so I close the public portion what are your thoughts good so we are taking some conditions that are already non-conforming and making them worse right the the two-car garage in the front yard and and the coverage of impervious coverage in the front yard with with with without the consideration of trying to make it get better and that part sort of troubles me um you know where you were going previously with the idea of perhaps giving back some of the impervious coverage to make this a better condition would have been perhaps more uh appealing or or made this situation more um palatable for me because we're we're thinking oh we're going to try to make that you know we're asking for stuff but we're trying to still make it better but the way it is now I I don't see why uh I don't find any compell it say that thank you any other thoughts I'll go I following up on VI I kind of agree with that assessment as I was driving up coming from Lake View you mentioned before as you're coming down the other direction you're going east it seems so far away but when you're coming from Lake View going west you I made that turn by the tree and your existing garage is sitting right in front of it you want to bring that 8 close closer so it seems to me that that whole right side what we're all talking about is extremely crowded for that that neighborhood that's just my my opinion at this point um me as far as like keeping you know asking for a third card garage par the den the XL at the S Tri we don't want it to get stolen oh lock the keys inside be okay far as it's a lot on that right hand side that that was my opinion as I was driving up there and I had the whole PL there yesterday um with the plants so look forward to see what anyone else has to say I don't I don't disagree with the um ask for getting rid of of some of the um asphalt that that could make the conditions better um I I I'm I'm not as troubled by the garage because I understand the need to have a garage that can fit all of your cars um and there really doesn't seem to be another logical place that you could put the garage um but you know in terms of my fellow board members who would like to see a little hitback to make the conditions more palatable um I you know I I don't disagree with them yeah no I I mean I agree with those comments I think I think um I'm not hugely troubled by the project overall but I do think there should be some take here um and uh you know if I got that I would feel much better about quoting to approve uh have a motion to open the public portion of the hearing so moved and second uh um yeah yeah it's open that's why I did this for sure appreciate that so my the only like when I think about this and the road like the the interesting thing about our road windir is that not only is it narrow it it like drops off like the way that the road's built and so to get someone to park out in front you can't you'll break your car because if you put it on the side it literally drops off and so when we think about our driveway and about we have a lot of family that comes to visit a lot and friends especially with the pool our driveway gets very full and this ended up getting filled up and used over here as well and so when we were considering the third car garage and we definitely talked about some of the issues that we had that we needed to come speak with you guys about that was why we didn't we weren't considering trying to cut back just because it's very difficult to put the cars in the street I don't you know where else they would go and that's why um your your reasoning is understood um uh but I would also make it aware that the votes here what's that I'd also make it aware that you don't have the votes so you know the there there's probably two choices to modify or you know Carry Your Case to then modify your plan so that that's probably where this is head say I'm not sure you want us to vote tonight is that correct well we want if there's a vote we want it to be favorable so just give us I'm just saying right now judging by no I can count I can count to seven or four Can I Say Something board attorney you know some of the board members were talking about you know whether using the terminology give or take or what have you the reality is that you have a deviation in terms of the coverage that's over over 30% yes and part of a board's job in braning variances is determining whether there's any type of mitigating factors to Warrant satisfying positive criteria and the negative criteria give us just one second thank you for that you want to make that suggestion all right so um we thought that it would be a good idea to remove the driveway the lower driveway on the on the side of the right side of the property that's pretty brilliant these things they sometimes I don't the IDE come from let me ask you how many sareet is that approximately we'll read the record on that one so the only thing that we would then ask is that if we remove this back so that the driveway continues sort of in a straight line um we're not we're not planning to remove this all straight out to the street because it blocks the the that that exit for the circular driveway and we would like to have a path that would be from sort of Midway on the driveway here around and then once it gets past the corner of the house it doesn't count it doesn't impact anything so um I think that that's I think it's a a reasonable suggestion and um so we'll do that it would be a continuation of the path that comes around from the pool and uh that would come around to the driveway uh I I can if you'd like I can provide Eileen with the exact statistics on that yeah I mean that would be smart just for the memorialization purpose to get as close as you can yeah if if you can if you can provide that and then describe in your narrative um where specifically that you want The Walking path to be to be located I will modify the drawing as well resubmit and submit that Dian so that we have a document that we can refer to the memorialization and a statistic I don't want you to do that and the reason not because I don't appreciate the the offer is that if you're going to be submitting an additional plan we have to open up the record I think that verbally the record is sufficient to indicate um what the applicant is willing to do to mitigate the detrimental impacts of the impervious front yard impervious coverage but if you can provide a narrative to eileene as what you're proposing to do without an act ual exhibit or or a or a plan I think that would be sufficient for purposes of the memorialization okay just to say that there will be there'll be a path that will lead from the existing driveway that's part of the and that the for the board's purposes particularly as as it comes to a vote we understand the concept of removing this driveway uh or parking area however it's defined back to a line that would make sense for the continuation of the of the driveway coming out from the the semicircular driveway and to put a path that would come from somewhere on that driveway to Loop over to connect with the existing path that's back there how that's configured we'll see what the numbers are I don't I wanted to just make sure we're talking about the overall concept without getting stuck on any of the numbers that have been thrown out because they're they're um estimates at best yeah understood okay okay all right in the narrative R would we have the numbers yeah so the the whole purpose is so that the applicant in the narrative will be providing the the update numbers based on the representations that the applicant is making right and I will say how much of that this I don't I don't want to get into something where we say well the part behind that point doesn't count so we would leave it we're not planning it we're planning to remove the whole thing not just a piece that's within that front yard setback all right just to just to be clear on that understood can I make a suggest just board consideration so in these kind of circumstances I don't know if this board has had one yet at least during my tenure what I will some times recommend to the board is that should you decide to take a vote um that may be a favorable vote with regard to this application with conditions Etc um my suggestion is that the motion should be wor worded that you're directing me to draft a resolution for consideration and that the application would necessarily be carried to the to the date that the resolution is actually voted on so that the application technically stays open but they're voting potentially in the affirmative right and instructing me to prepare a draft resolution so this way because the board hasn't seen the actual narrative in sh's point so this way that it still provides an opportunity for the board to ask a question or two regarding regarding the narrative without you know reopening case Etc ET yeah I think that that's obviously the best way to handle it legally I'm guessing but uh you in yeah right yeah in Practical terms we I think that we are we agree what we're talking about as as the proposal for a revision to the plan that's been submitted and I'll I'll clarify that and I'll talk directly with IA to make sure that that's clear if there's confusion within all of you you can I mean everybody will have an opport oity to see that that's why I'm suggesting that we keep the application technically open so that it's not just that we're voting on a resolution of the board to Craigs point which is an excellent one has an opportunity for your benefit the board's benefit to to assess what the narrative okay and and and so I was just going to say that you know to your point you wanted the vote only if there was an affirmative suppose at the end when we look at the narrative and the you know it's still not there where you want want then again they still have the option to withdraw or just technical aspect of it yeah a vote would be a positive vote would be a vote to instruct me to prepare a draft resolution for further consideration at at the next meeting the next meeting okay okay I'm anticipating that I'm going to have my information back to e in either tomorrow or Wednesday um so that there's ample time it's not going to be I would assume that it wouldn't sprung on you at the next meeting well but we don't get together again till the next meting as much as you think together all the time as it feel yes okay well we would have the resolution prepared prepared before thee it be plenty of time to review right okay we were we were reducing the number by about 1% with this proposal but it'll be reduced further and we'll have that all that yeah we're talking about 36% allowing for the uh allowing yeah it we'll have to see what it really is we we'll calculate it exactly some is going to go back for the walkway um and as the we will remove the whole driveway right only a portion of that counts in impervious surface with a front go um with that then I will close the public portion of the meeting again and we're back to uh our vote so in the uh with the latest news regarding the um Mr rosen's novel proposal to uh remove that piece of driveway um upon further thought uh your comments I um would be happy to support the application um I'm just not sure how to you're making a motion to instruct me to draft resolution for consideration at the at the following meeting with the opportunity for the board to further comment once we receive Mr rosen's supplemental narrative is it for the next meeting or it would whatever whatever you schedule for because I know typically the resolutions are the following doesn't it can be it can be whenever I can move this one to the top of the list if that's the Bo's preference apprciate app uh so uh any other thoughts on this I have a motion so motion and Rob's exact like it second please second Joseph Goldfield can I ask Rob a question yeah this is not approval or disapproval of this project this is just that's correct so other words yeah in in these kind of cases it's sort of well we just want to see it this bit of information one last time so go ahead and draft the resolution we're not bound by the resolution yet but we want you to draft it and at the next meeting we'll see it on paper supplemented presumably with the supplemental material that's being submitted by the applicant and we will open it up it's not like in our typical situation where we just have a resolution there are any questions let's take a vote we're GNA actually open up the meeting and and see if the applicant wants to say anything more if we want to say anything anything more and then you're going to revote and then we can move on to the resolution if you vote the way and and part of this just like any resolution is that when we get to the resolution part if we get that far that the applicant I'm sorry more importantly the board may have some revisions to the resolution based on sub here go now with the vote I didn't hear your answer my answer is yes okay thank you shandrew har yes Amy Lawrence yes Gary Rosen yes sh John yes CH yes yes so for this one Eileen I'm suggesting that we carry this meeting January 22 January January 22 Yeah so we're gonna carry this meeting to January 22nd the members of the public no further notice will be provided by the app at such time the board before formally voting on any resolution will open reopen this matter for any additional questions by the board primarily based on the supplemental materials that are anticipated to be submitted by the app here we go I know what I'm doing uh for the record you know there's no else tonight and may all favor thank you for your time I didn't even know whether we' get H tonight