##VIDEO ID:tKFev9Z6sdw## e okay your microphones out everyone in accordance with Section Five of the open public meetings act chapter 231 public 1975 be advised that notice of this meeting was made by posting on Bol board town hall and mailing to the officially designated newspapers a list of meeting dates annually indicating that this meeting would take place at Town Hall at 7M on August 19th call pres here here here here uh a couple quick uh things before we jump into the the the memorializations um for applications evening if you're here on application calendar 39 9324 Jonah rman 61 Slayton that is a journ to October 21st and as noted uh calendar 39 8624 and MW Short Hills located at 752 Mars Turnpike that application has been withdrawn so those two will not be heard this evening so next we'll be moving on to our approval of minutes of 7124 um any corrections or changes and um who is eligible eligible Josey CRA okay um can I have a motion to adopt the minutes of 7124 ition and a second all those in favor any opposed next up we have the moralization of calendar 39822 24 Mecca property Development LLC at 18 Willis Street Milbury we have elig on that Joseph Amy Gary okay um any corrections or changes to that memorialization if not I have a motion motion to approve the memorialization for calendar number 3982 d24 a second secondi yes La yes yes yes next up calendar 39824 aner tiagi 102 cyer Street Milburn same [Music] crew and all right any corrections or changes to that application if not can I have a motion I'll make a motion to approve calendar 39-24 thank you a second second Jose yes La yes Gary Rosen yes yes uh next up at calendar 39 8824 Jama Brandon Culligan at 10 Forest Drive who's eligible on that okay uh any corrections or changes if not can I have a motion those to accept and a second second yes lawr yes yes yes yes couple things so calendar 3 uh 39 8724 which will be our first matter of the evening paper mill Playhouse um I ask counselor so I'm going to make this announcement for you and if I'm not sure for calendar 39922 24 the Veterinary emergency group is someone here representing them okay I am chairman John great as you can see we have five voters understood okay so I make that announce once you have a d variance you have a d variance so just knowing that you clean sleep this evening so um depending on what you choose you still have a few minutes yet um I'm just letting you know that obviously now because you're coming to uh first the show here so with that would you like to proceed yes okay see how far we get very good um I would like to try sorry ah quick we do have a member that has made a donation to the paper play house we do not think it's a conflict but we're letting you know if you want to proceed we don't have any issue with that okay we don't think it was actually a donation made or if it was it was a long time ago very well you know y okay um and we would like to try to have your testimony wrapped up by 9:00 pm as we do have others to get to this evening several another significant case and several other with that Flor is yours yep she's up to dat very good thanks chairman members of the board to bring us back into it we were here on June 17th with testimony from Mike STS paper executive director and just three quick points before we get started with our architect first I think everybody understands that the vast majority of the Papermill project are Renovations of interior space the exterior Renovations that we have site plan issues uh with are the lobby expansion of the theater of 2592 square feet and the footprint of the carriage house with 1670 square feet so we're talking about an approximate 4260 square foot addition of space on a 3.27 acre parcel that's 142,000 square feet so really modest additions totaling 4260 square feet I remind the board of Mr st's testimony that the last significant Renovations at paper mill took place in the 1980s so I think it's fair to state that some renovation are long overdue and number three as we let you know paper mill purchase lot 15 we'll go into that with the engineer and our planner but paper mill purchase lot 15 last year that's where the parking lot was there was a house that was being rented that house has now come down and the township of Milburn which signed the application that's before you was the property owner of lots 13 and 14 they're in the process of purchasing lot uh 15 there was a bond ordinance back in April which is a public record last week there was an ordinance introduced uh at the governing body to carry out the purchase the purchase and sale agreement has been fully negotiated and the second reading of that ordinance is scheduled for September 3D and those facts will uh come into play during the planning testimony uh but I just wanted to remind the board of those facts so with that uh chairman we have our architect Don Kim our civil engineer Adam westenberger and hopefully uh Mr Keller on the planning testimony we've worked hard to give you everything that you need in terms of the essentials but also to um pair down so we don't go on for too long what I've done also is um pre-marked um the exhibits and I'll hand that out this way we can move along more quickly uh this is a list of the 11 boards that the architect is going to go over you have those this way we don't have to spend time describing what they are nine out of these 11 are already in your packet there's only two new ones but this way we can sort of move along and just call them out so you so they you know I wanted to give the list so that you had them and we could move along uh with brevity okay we're gonna call our first witness for tonight Kim I see your hands raised um what what's in relation to uh the up okay well when some when we're obviously not open for public question yet but you you'll be able to question professionals as they come up yeah at the end of the last meeting uh you had open question for Mr STS right was a significant amount of testimony after he answer the questions and has questions open my eyes to some things that I wanted to ask Mr now time or lat at this point you're bring Mr St forward today are you not not we're not planning on it but we're not going to deny him the right to ask additional questions we open up for questions at the end we can you can certainly come in and and and do that since he is here this evening so uh but we're continue with the testimony and then if you'd like to come up when we ask ask questions we can do that okay we call Don Kim an expert in the field of architecture I can have him sworn take that side the ttim I do your name and address my name is Don Kim my address is 14 hod Road Park New Jersey 8824 and can you provide your professional qualifications so to the board uh I'm a senior associate at KSS Architects um I hold a bachelor of architecture degree licensed architect uh in the state of California and the state of New Jersey um also a lead credited professional um both of my licenses are current and in good standing uh have not testified in mour I have testified in New Jersey never not been accepted um I'm also a member of the American Institute of Architects and my role on this project is a a project manag and you're familiar with all the plans that have been developed and submitted yes chairman out submit Mr Kim is an expert in the field of architecture sure it's Str are accepted by this board please continue we appreciate that and you'll know Mr westenberger our engineer has graciously agreed to help flip the board so we can uh keep it going so don I'm gonna I'll leave it to you to give a a brief outline of the a project please call out the exhibit numbers and the sheets as you go along so that the record has that and uh it's only exhibits um A8 and a11 that are new A8 and a11 are new all the other ones are already in your packets but we've remarked them for clarity okay when we get okay we'll get when we get to that just what's that yeah okay we get to that you just let us know when we get to eight we'll stop and we'll announce it but uh A1 through seven there you already have all those and he's going to call out the sheets that are on these boards okay okay thank you thank you uh thank you so much for the opportunity to speak this evening on behalf of this very important project uh we believe in this project because we understand the significance of the history um to the township the people organization the building the site and the community um we also really appreciate the partnership and collaboration with the town and the mbour historic preservation Commission on the development of conceptual design ideas for this project um my first exhibit is exhibit number A1 here on the leftand side um in this first exhibit the current main entry facad that the Milbourne historic uh preservation commission has deemed historically significant can be seen brought forward uh to the southern side of the new Carriage House expansion uh facing the main approach from downtown along Brookside Drive um in doing so we look to amplify the significance of the facade and position it to be become the new front face and gateway to the pill campus um exhibit uh A2 on the right hand side here um we understand this project is critical to the continuation of the Papermill organization the historically original theater was a fraction of the size it is today as the size of the theater grew and grew over the years together with the success of the paper mill into what's today 1100 plus seat capacity the fun house for the theater did not grow accordingly um the small Carriage House restaurant that primarily Services the theater followed the same trajectory uh or or lack thereof for that matter and today struggles to keep up with the demand um so we believe this project presents the opportunity to provide critically needed restrooms Milling areas um queuing areas accessibility Provisions remediation of challenging split levels and improve comfort and safety for for paper mills patrons in particular the senior and disabled populations at both the front house um as well as the carriage us so this project Endeavors to do so with a design that is complimentary to each other uh and in a manner that reinforces community and most importantly um it pays respect to the history of the architecture that is there today thank you so much oh so the third 83 exhibit here on the left um so to that end the design seeks to incorporate the textured red brick and the strong gable roof form um at the of the existing architecture um it further incorporates a large recess at the new main entry facade in the location of and matching the geometric shape and size of the facade that the HPC has deemed historically significant and it does so by echoing the future absence of that facade as a memorial amage and tribute to it um in dialogue with the HPC we understand the existing Courtyard in the front is a defining characteristic of the history of the site and very much beloved by the community when was that dialogue take place that you're referring to we've had several meetings with HBC over the last uh year and a half would say okay you're referring to as meetings as way we don't have that Intel so you know when you say these meetings it' be nice to know the context and the timing okay uh I I believe we've had maybe two to three over the last year and a half okay yeah um most recently maybe uh three month two or three months ago okay um so the uh existing Courtyard we we have a sand from the HBC is a defining characteristic of the history of the site it's very uh much beloved by the community so uh we are proposing to maintain it as such and continue its use for outdoor milling and an open area for respit uh finally our hope is that the transparency and the visibility of the new front of the theater will strengthen the paper Mill's engagement and Community with theater um it will allow it to feel more welcoming safe and inviting to visitors and also in doing so reinforce the unity with the town and the public uh this exhibit on the left um is a view of the Riverside of the Papermill theater building around A4 now A4 uh the Riverside of the building continues the same red brick masonry from the front uh while incorporating a continuation of the punch windows with Arch tops that exists today um and we've endeavored to do this in a manner that reflects the indust Ral Heritage of the original Mill and architecture again on the left hand side exhibit A5 um and finally this project will address several safety concerns that currently exist throughout the site uh the overly steep slopes and Grading of the walking areas will be corrected and uneven Plaza Paving will be replaced in full to eliminate trip looking South here correct this would be looking South yes from the main port line okay yes pull up Qui you so broke okay so we uh we are on exhibit uh A6 um this exhibit depicts the proposed removal of the existing uh facade of the Southern wing of the carriage house to prepare for a first floor expansion twostory Second Story addition and Associated new facades no work is planned at the Northern Ring here Adam let's see if we can get back that back up your break so we can't just leave them there I think I got okay um and this is one of those two new exhibits I apolog this was it yeah okay and uh this exhibit uh A7 depicts a proposal to create a larger dining and event space uh new elevator and stairs for accessibility and safer exiting uh increased toilet capacity and increase kitchen capacity we're talking about the carriage house this is now the carrage house yep uh the capacity will increase from 125 to 222 um and that increase is spread across four different rooms gra um exhibit A8 this exhibit this is a new one okay this is uh the building elevations this was has a revision date of June 13th and and uh and I to create this exhibit to show some of the height variances correct talking about essentially the same exhibit that was submitted the only difference is we've added um some Dimensions here to help explain the H so we'll need that one at the end so this exhibit depicts um uh the variance relief we seek for the building height the allowable height is 32 feet and the proposed height is 32' 4 in so we're just 4 in over you know for architectural reasons but it's one of the uh the D6 height variances or actually D3 excuse me just a d a c variance for height let me get it okay C variance for a couple inches over four inches over this height is needed to accommodate a new elevator and connection to the second floor level of the existing second floor level while maintaining uh as close as possible to the original historic facade GE R and roof slopes um that we're trying to match from the original facade and exhibit 89 coming up here we're back at the theater building now um this exhibit just simply depicts the proposed removal uh of the portions of the front of house uh to prepare for the new improved front of house John and just to repeat something that Mike STS testified the the theater area the main theater area that's not changing as part of this no work at theater okay so there's 1100 or 1,00 seats that's all staying the same this is back of the house and the amenities and the front of the front of the house and that sort of improve just the front of house no work at the back of house in this application okay yep that was simply just the demo of the front of house for reference and then thank you uh we are at the proposed plans now this is exhibit A10 um this exhibit depicts a new front of house that consists of a large open contiguous Lobby areas without split levels um that can be safer and more comfortable during Milling times significantly increased uh toilet capacities a physical interior connection to the backa house areas and modernized HBC systems that are more efficient with better air filtration is our one of the goals and just point out where those areas are on exhibit 810 this is the new front of house area okay and all of this is existing that will not be part of this project back a house Auditorium stage none of that is part of this application this is uh believe this is my last exhibit that's okay and that's a new one also similar story here it's it's basically the same exhibit that was submitted we just simply in yellow here we've added some Dimensions to help depict the variance where we for seeking okay and we have a couple of additional what I'm going to call minor height variances and I ask you to create this exhibit to show the board where those height variances are located and and explain why we need that yep okay can you do that using a11 for me a11 U says the exhibit that deps the various relief for height uh the gray shaded areas here so these diagonal darker areas are the existing building that will remain uh and then obviously these white areas are the additions um the new additions are higher than the allowable height but they are as you can see significantly lower than the existing building height uh the allowable zoning code height is 40 fet and the proposed height of the new Lobby gable roof is uh 43 Fe 9 in this height is needed to accommodate the new Lobby second floor uh while maintaining as close as possible to this the shape and geometry of the existing uh roof slopes so this is uh 40 feet permitted in the CD Zone and you're proposing uh 43.8 feet here that's correct okay okay I call that out as a as a c variance because we're less than 10% and it's an architectural feature it's it's an architectural and functional feature as well to get the the new second floor okay but can you just point that out on exhibit um A2 over there where you're talking about it on the rendering so the board knows a little bit right here Gable is where you're slightly over then yeah it's not the whole thing but it's just a certain part of it where it where it where it goes but there's other parts of the building that are taller in the back um okay so that's a a c the new Lobby Gable and then there's um a variance for for the a stair enclosure as well can you point that out yep the proposed height of the new stair enclosures um there's two stair enclosures proposed uh one is for access to the control room uh and the other is access to the main roof of the theater that exists today uh these are needed to provide more functional and safer access to the control room and the the main roof um that currently exists today those proposed Heights are 45 feet2 there's one very similar to the lobby Gable we just discussed and then the back one here um that provides a safer and better uh access to the main Auditorium roof here uh that's 54 fe5 inches okay and we've called those out as D variances because we have 40 feet permitted in the uh CD Zone those are relatively minor uh structures they don't exceed the maximum height that's out there today right correct correct and there are design and Architectural reasons to have the the stair enclosure and the uh control room stair en closure okay okay Y and that's uh that's that's it for my testimony thank you so much for the opportunity to speak this evening um and considering this project thank you any questions from the board for this uh um quick question and this just a question so there's a lot of new glass going up correct or because that it doesn't exist today yes the the main um front face of the new Lobby is proposed to be a very uh transparent uh welcoming and safe those are is there any thought making a bird safe this is under this a little bit this is nothing near the ORD it's just a thought T that's a very good point that is becoming a more and more important topic today and we will definitely consider that's it's mainly about the glass selection the exact type of glass that we select just a thought to consider and there is like a beautiful gate on the property now Archway is that remaining yes the gate um I think we are considering repurposing they're going to be repurposed on the campus but they're not part of this um design yet but they the stay somewhere on the camp lovely and to me that's very welcomeing anyway thank thank you any other questions uh just sticking sticking with your a11 uh 43 ft is the height of the the new roof you're referring to the new Gable 43.8 43 43 what is the existing height now at the front of the house exterior um so if you know the main sort of gable portion of it is is roughly the size of this right this is the this is the image to it there are portions though that there are various bump outs and lots of different masses off the sides and stuff I do not have the exact numbers of those off the top of my head so that homage you're saying the smaller Gable that's just reflecting with the existing right now we'll try to get that number for you on what it is maybe it might could be on the plans on the existing on the Z BL I don't know if they if it if it drilled down um any questions for the architect from the audience come on forward now I was mentioned your your test your questions regarding previous testimony correct or do you have some for the architect as well I have questions for the architect okay uh just your name and uh address for the record please yeah Douglas Miller 35 Brookside Drive melbour uh in your testimony you said the historic uh facade was brought forward and that it's deemed a historically significant element by the HBC um so it's going to be brought forward and used as the uh facade facing the parking lot on the uh Carriage House building correct yes correct at the last meeting uh Mr stots testified that due to the scheduling of construction it was going to be torn down completely and a new facade was going to be uh built so uh there was the impression that the HPC has condoned this but in all the previous meetings I went to regarding this this is the testimony that I heard that the historic facade was going to be uh reconstructed but it does not appear to be the case so I don't I asked for any documentation from the HPC but there doesn't appear to be any I know at the last meeting yeah I know at the last meeting uh Miss Glatt uh said that she's on the HBC and she has Le is on to the HBC and hasn't heard anything and then the board the paper mill was referred to the HBC I was supposed to go there question oh yeah sure so so is the historic facade being torn down and and demolished and thrown away eventually that my understanding after the new one that is uh intended to replicate it is constructed that's my understanding yes okay just while you're going through this you're talking about the Carriage House only not the MRE I'm talking about the historic facade that's the entrance to the existing Papermill Playhouse okay I believe you're referring to this for second yes that's the that's the car correct so so the existing facade you're saying is being removed and it's being replaced in on the carriage house as an omage right but he testified that the historic the facade was historically significant and deemed testified he said that the HPC said it we make no uh representations we don't agree there's no historic designation at all the HPC felt it had value and my client expected that field goal we are not agreeing or conceding that there's any uh historic uh designations on the think you understand the difference I do yes um is the HPC aware that the historic facade is being torn down application first of all you're you're directing your questions yes sorry okay I'll move on from the fac Mr you choose so but otherwise okay um you had testified that there's going to be 222 seat capacity in the new Carriage House restaurant yes uh in the notice it was uh said that the capacity of the carage House Restaurant was going to double and in the prior meeting Mr stot said the seating was going to go from 80 to 160 so now we're talking about 222 seats which is closer to tripling the size of the restaurant the notice actually says 223 we were off by one in some of the count so the notice says 223 I think that that's the fact on can you confirm that the accurate number is 222 I understand it's 222 is my understanding right we have to count a couple of times and we we arrived at 2202 at the end one seat off from the numers okay thank you any other questions for the AR text please come forward to the Le and your name and address for the record I'm Beth Miller and uh I live at 35 Brookside Drive in mbour uh I'm so sorry terribly sorry it's kind of a repeat question but I just really would like some clarification sure um there was a little bit of back and forth um so I just really would like to know in terms of the his historic facade that is on the front of the paper mill Playhouse when you're going to be undertaking this project will that be demolished or retained and reused uh we would like to reconstruct it new uh next summer uh assuming we get approval uh and then we'd like to demolish the original one to make room for the new facade here that we show okay so that's where I'm getting confused because I'm hearing we would like to reconstruct it and we would like to demolish it so are you demolishing the original facade that's the intent eventually yes after we've reconstructed it here in the front we brought it from here to here then we'd like to demolish the original one here as and then build the new facade in its place okay so you will not be retaining the historic facade but instead you will be building a reproduction of it is that Cor correct yes we' like to reconstruct a new one uh in as close to the original as possible okay thank you we clarify that yes address my name is Jeffrey Phil excuse me 11 Alexander Lane Short Hills New Jersey my question begins with premise on concern statements that were made by the attorney at the beginning where he made reference to the bond ordinance and to the sale purchase agreement um the sale purchase agreement when you read it which it hasn't been produced to you the agreement that's that's way outside no no no but no listen it goes to the architect because the property is located the proper property is located within a flood zone okay based on all your changes have you made any changes to reflect um or protect it because it's located in a 100-year flood zone like have you moved some of the mechanical stuff because let's say what we learned from Hurricane Sandy and New York that a lot of things that were in basement have been lifted up um mechanical stuff have you taken that into account that it's located in a 100-year flood zone are you moving any of the mechanical stuff um from we say the basement from area that could be prone to to flooding to a higher area and what other changes have you done to take into account the location within a 100-year flood zone thank you Don can you handle that from the architectural standpoint Mr Feld we'll have the next Witness talk about that from the civil engineer because obviously we're dealing with the so that's okay people are thrown do you care to answer that or youer to if it's okay it's an engineering question I'd like to defer to the civil engineer that's possible Don have there been any architectural changes due to the flood plane issues in terms of the Mechanicals I I would not I don't believe so no okay any other questions for the architect regarding his testimony throw back to you okay we're ready for our next witness go ahead Adam westenberger expert in the field of civil engineering thank you joh he's nothing qualified this point correct he has not been qualified if I can have him sworn please I do Adam westenberger 245 Main Street Chester New Jersey w s t n b e r g e r can you provide your professional qualifications sir I have a Bachelor of Science and civil engineering from the New Jersey Institute of Technology I'm a licensed professional engineering good standing in the state of New Jersey I testified in front of dozens of boards in the state of New Jersey and worked on hundreds of projects throughout the state and you're the lead on this project yes I'm familiar with the plans in the preparation and your licenses are in good standing yes and uh those other Bo have been recognized as an expert correct chairman also submit Mr westenberger as an expert in the field of civil engineering CRS are accepted by this board please proceed okay Adam I'm going to ask you to go out of order just answer Mr feld's Question uh first since it's on our mind you know obviously we have a river right next door can you tell the board what's happening with the with the state and the flood planes and all that sure we've made application to the state of New Jersey to the Department of engineer of Environmental Protection uh for the flood uh Zone that's on the property both the theater and the proposed expansion to The Carriage House are above the 100 flood elevation and the additional foot required by the state of New Jersey so uh the floor the finished floor elevations are all elevated above that uh and there's no direct uh flow into any um basement areas or anything of that nature where mechanical equipment is located uh so that is going to remain as Don testified to and obviously before we start construction we have to get the the necessary permits from the state of New Jersey D yes we have a pending up application with them right now we expect a result in the next month or so on the approval of s okay um okay um can you uh give us a little recap from this civil engineering uh side of the aisle sure so uh I would like to bring up my first exhibit which is the uh a colorized aerial exhibit it's included in the packet uh so I did not mark it okay would you like me to or no um no alterations to it no no no need Okay so this is the aerial exhibit of the um of the pro the existing property North arrow is located at the top left corner of the exhibit with a North arrow pointing to plan left and the exhibit is at 100 scale the Lots in question are block 134 Lots 13 through 15 Lots 13 and 14 are the lots which the main theater is located on and these are in the CD Cultural District zone and lot 15 is What U Mr scolnick referenced earlier with the parking lot uh and that is in the R6 residential 6000t zone I'm going to move to my next exhibit okay and that's a new one this is a new exhibit okay it's gonna be a12 and would you give this exhibit a name and a DAT a12 this is the overall site plan rendering it's dated June 17 2024 it's a colorized version of the site plan that was submitted in the packet okay so we're going to call it overall site plan rendered with a date of 61724 for the record that's a12 can you mark a12 yes okay I did already we're ahead of you chairman we're trying the north ARA is located at the top right corner of the north arrow pointing to plan left exhibits at 30 scale so uh as Mr skck repr earlier the building expansions there's the proposed uh theater uh expansions which is 2592 ft of footprint area that's located around the uh eastern and western portions of the building the uh Southern facade side is actually pulled back a little bit from where the existing facade is that's the dark orange on this planet the dark orange on this plane is the proposed portion of the building the lighter orange is the existing bulk of the theater which there's a skic reference earlier so dark Orange's new footprint yes dark Orange's new footprint on this one okay and on the existing carriage house building we have the lighter orange of the existing carriage house and then the proposed expansion of 1,670 square feet okay so to set up Mr Keller's testimony a little bit the the expanded Carriage House is going to go onto that lot 15 correct correct okay so we have no we have no setbacks to the lot line uh there because of sort of the the way the properties have come into ownership the PO potentially these Lots will all be merged into one but we do have some relief and it's part of the the bulky relief of no setbacks because the carriage house is going to expand into what is now lot 15 that's the dark orange on the carriage house at this time the proposed expansion is going to be straddling the lot L okay talk to me just for a minute because we do have requests for front yard setback deviations can you point out where those are on the dark orange so the board sort of sees what's going on there sure so the um the front yard setback for the theater building um that's what lot 13 this is on lot 13 and 14 got it um the existing front yard well actually there's there's a structure that's located partially in the right of way so there's a zero foot setback uh but the main this main building so we're keeping the plane of the main building more or less yes I don't have the existing the proposed is about 11 feet um setback and then for the Carriage House it matches the exact location of where the old single family home was proposed previously the same setback that was there so we're requesting some front yard setback variances but we're not coming any closer than other existing portions of both the carriage house and the theater correct on that okay Mr Keller's going to go into some more detail but I want to call out some of the things similarly in the rear yard we have some rear yard setback Devi a can you just since we're on this exhibit can you show the board where that is sure so the um theater building is expanding towards the rear uh towards the stream and so the existing setback was 93.2 feet for the theater we're at 89.5 feet for the proposed uh area just along this uh new Courtyard area so there's a a small 4 foot change in the rear yard setback that's the variance where um 118 ft is required this this Zone I should say this zone is unusual zoning where the setback requirements from all property lines are double the building height so there's a very unbelievably small allowable footprint area where you could actually build a building on this site it is this little Moon shaped sliver in the middle of the property where you can actually feasibly construct a building that complies obviously that's not possible so uh but the rear yard setback it's that the addition in the back there that essentially keeps the the plane of the building it goes a few feet closer to the to the property I just want to point that out so we have some of the foundation for Mr Keller there okay so um I'm me continue with parking sure so uh as as Mr Kim alluded to the uh the number of seats in the actual theater is unchanged so the previously required uh spaces for 100 for 1,44 seats uh you require one space for every three seats so that's 381 required that is not changing based on the theater and then for the carage house we had the discussion about uh 222 proposed seats that's an increase of 97 seats based on the existing number of seats to the incre increased parking demand is 33 spaces for the resturant and that's really a that's really technical yes because we have testimony for Mr stots they're not going to be used at the same time meaning when the theater is in operation they're not going to be uh also having uh other events at the carriage house but technically speaking we are increasing the seating at the carriage house so if you add the seating for the theater and the carriage house together there's an increased demand precisely yes so technically speaking however we understand that anyone that's attending the carriage house during a theater performance will also be attending the theater performance and therefore they're included in that calculation mod okay and we'll have some more testimony from Mr Keller um uh on the porking issue but uh thank you for uh clarifying how we did the calculations so um some of the other proposed improvements there are some proposed parking improvements on the Northern side of the lwn there were previously uh a row of parking spaces and then adaa parking spaces along the Riverside retaining wall that some of those ada8 parking spaces were relocated to increase the Courtyard area for pedestrian uh movement and circulation and so those relocated parking spaces um moved further north and they have a few Associated sizing variances with them we're proposing where 9 by 19 foot spaces require we're proposing a 9 by 18 foot which is standard industry practice uh still safe and navigable parking space size that's for that's for regular parking that is for one there's one regular parking space just one space space on the one and then there's um there's the six relocated 88 paring spaces those are 12 x 20 required correct so 12 x 20 is required within Milburn we're proposing what the more common Federal standard is where we have the 8 foot spaces and then the intermittent eight or five foot striping in between uh so our proposed 88 parking SP sizes are 8 by8 uh which typical for the federal requirements issues circulation issues that's incredibly common that's that's the standard frankly this whole country okay so milber has an even greater standard you obviously tried to design for that but we would lose space or two and so we opted for the more common Federal requirement okay so those spaces have been moved further away from the from the facility they have uh they I think proximity to the door hasn't changed significantly but those have been relocated and additionally I believe there under previous work there have been some improvements made to the spaces um associated with the with the carriage house as well so there have been some improvements made to those and then we um made sure to improve the Ada access to the the door as well how is the access to the doors for people who Fe sure there's a there's a strip out Ada accessible uh walking path that follows to The Pedestrian Courtyard this is all uh complies with Ada grading standards for for safe for safe travel it's a ramp there is a ramp that leads from where the parking lot meets the Courtyard area yes are elevator that can take them interior yeah I believe yes there because you're entering on the ground floor there or you're entering the same level as the theater um the Mr Kim can talk to this I believe there's some um the front and the back of the house don't really connect so well they're sort of separate areas and that's so the the the front spaces here connect to the main right front theater lobby area this is more for back of house for employees really and this will go into um whatever access level they need to to access the elevators either way an old building it doesn't if you're a handicapped individual who requires adaptive access they so they will they can park in the lot here that accesses the front door uh there's 8 access point parking spaces across the street as well uh that's utilized for this site and so that has a new ramp that accesses the front door uh like I said these are really more for employees were required to um install uh Ada spaces in any parking lot so they're treated as individual Lots but really Ada patrons will be accessing probably more the front of house where employees would would utilize the spots in the back either way all access will be in compant yes absolutely thank except for the size of the parking space correct well yeah we're federally compliant but not Township not Township sorry can you just clarify how many adaes for patrons and staff are there now and how many will there be in the new plan is it the same there are the it's the same I don't actually don't know the total but there were six before and I replaced it with six for these ones that we relocated and then everything else is the same so there's been no change in the number of ADA accessible parking STS but there is a net loss of overall parking spaces yes correct of 10 10 SP 10 right yes 121 to correct uh yes sorry we added some charging stations even though we didn't think we had to at the recommendation of I think topology yes correct so um there's a little confusion with the new EV ordinance for the state whether or not uh we're we're reducing number of total parking spaces so do we need to propose any EVs do we need to Pro propose one for the space we're restriping or four for the total number of parking spaces that existed on site we've agreed to just propose four um to not disrupt the Apple card on it will the loss of the 10 spaces matter are those are those spaces typically used on performance so we don't think so you all know how parking for Paper Mill Works people are parking all over the place so uh we think that's sort of a rounding error uh in the in the scheme of of how it's going to work here so you want to go through the numbers of the parking in the area um yeah if you have just so you you know they have them so as I noted the the parking calculation requires 381 parking stalls there are 274 striped parking spaces in the immediate vicinity of paper mill that's the lots that are part of the subject application and the Lots across the street those are just striped parking spaces there's also also available parking for 422 once the valets and the stacking takes place and then in addition to those uh there are parking areas in downtown Milburn that are utilized by paper mill um which total 792 parking spaces so that's a total of 1,66 strip spaces and 1,24 total available with the stacking uh which greatly exceeds the 381 required spaces for the calculation okay A little idea on the order of magnitude of how many spaces are available in the air of course many patrons are eating downtown and parking in the decks or in my office building at 75 Main Street usually kind of fall on theater night people parking and walking in other places right and there's also shuttles available as well I ask you so there's shuttles to the paper mill from the decks yes paper mill employs two shuttles that run from downtown melburn um to to to the theater uh there's no changes to the site access under proposed conditions the same driveways are proposed to remain um there's an existing roundabout drop off that's proposed to be replaced with a dedicated drop off Lane that drop off area is 85 ft long it's located across uh this new Courtyard area instead of the pulling roundabout area that was there before there were some comments made by Sergeant Barbosa regarding um site uh regarding those shuttles that we just mentioned and pedestrian access so we met with him on site um in believe the end of May perhaps early June and we just discussed some changes to the crosswalk area and the shuttle area that he was comfortable with accepting so we're going to incorporate those as part of our plans and he had no further comment after uh we made those changes so there's going actually did a little memorandum with him to uh to summarize the changes and I put that in the record uh with a submission and the board and the public have that yes there's a sketch on record of the changes that are proposed and accepted by Mr Sergeant okay so there's some meetings on pedestrian safety and and traffic safety with the the town's Representatives on that issue and you believe you satisfied him yes okay um so there's a proposed pedestrian Plaza that's just between the the the theater and the carriage house and also along along uh the brook side along the rivers side so that'll be for pedestrian movement there's like I mentioned the drop off area this is protected with ballards both on the Brookside Drive side and also on the parking lot side interior of the site there's ballards for pedestrian protection uh so this improves um P pedestrian circulation and also provides some seaing areas for for patrons just want to touch on lighting so we're proposing U lighting fixtures interior to the new Courtyard area and for the new building facade uh these include both U or a multitude of different um sources there's building mounted lights that that project light out there's mounted light poles there's lights uh within some of those ballards that I just mentioned there there's decorative light ballards and there's lights along the bench seating to uh to delineate where the edges of some benches uh are located the uh the average foot candles permitted is a half a foot candle the one foot candle where we're proposing 3.4 foot candles so that's a a waiver or variance waiver sight plan waiver uh the reason for that is this is a pedestrian Plaza it's not uh just a parking lot or just a building exterior it's uh we want to have more visibility for pedestrians Milling around and safety and things like that so uh this uh wallet exceeds Mill bur stand standards for an outside lighting area it's very common uh the The Illuminating engineering Society the I recommends a range of one to three foot candles for building exterior so the half a foot candle one fo foot candle is already kind of low of a requirement as it is so we believe that it's um that it's an acceptable design so we're actually over on some of the lighting standards and it's your judgment that they're necessary for safety reasons correct okay any issue from the engineering department on that no with with those uh design waivers that we've S no it was it was mentioned by um apology but there were no U considerable issues raised okay are those lights going to be on 247 are they going to be turning turned off after performances what What's the timing on the ligh they are going to be turned off after performances I think are we going to get into the timing yeah I think either we may have had testimony or could have been discussion um you know that seems like a reasonable condition of approval because we're we're cognizant that there are neighbors there we're cognizant that they're neighbors um we're thinking about an hour and a half they're gonna be on timers an hour and a half after uh the facilities Clos down um might be appropriate and I think that's something hopefully we can you know maybe in some detail uh work out dep depending on what's happening there question um in the backfill where there's a a river is there going to be lighting there yeah so there's a few pole mounted lights along the river as well as some up lights that shine into the trees for decorative Reon for decorative purposes so there will be um three to four fixtures along the River Walk correct and this is I don't know if this or not this gate that's supposedly keeping people from going into the river is it going to look like that or uh I don't believe it's going to look exactly like that there is um it's glass it's probably not going to prevent no there's consideration about what material we want to use but we are looking to um upgrade the guide rail protection along the retaining wall that's probably not part of this specific project um there's a number of other projects going on at paper mill but that is in the works I we have not decided on an appearance of it um anyway so the lighting in the timing back here I might want to suggest that that stays on because there's there's water there and it's a pedestrian walkway is there a neighbors back there that would there there are neighbors across the river that would probably not be to throw with that there's probably be some baseline security lighting that may remain on um at a very low level I'm not entirely I mean the river is not protected or people not protected okay well we'll make it that's gonna have to be a point of discussion thanks one second and then the uh the Landscaping so uh along with the courtyard upgrades we're proposing several new planting beds and Landscaping areas throughout the site so uh there's a few planting beds located along the Eastern side of this building by the uh entryway there'll be opportunity for planting beds and around the carriage house there's some existing plots that are going to be reused in some new areas and along the uh along Brookside Drive so wherever um we're able to propose some new Landscaping we're looking to propose 15 new ornamental trees and then uh a couple hundred uh shrubs and ground cover um totaling a total of 274 new uh plants you the environmental commission about that yeah have you spoken to them I don't believe they've issued us a letter with our application um but we can certainly communicate to make sure the species are all acceptable I think they they have some they have some requirements regarding species that they would like to see so Circle back with them absolutely no problem as well well that's obviously be reviewed but from that standpoint yeah to see that makes sense the up lighting are there any other public properties in milour Township that have up Lighting in the trees only because again the birds I'm sorry like uh I'm not familiar um so we can look into that that's really an aesthetic Choice um so it's definitely not you know a safety thing or anything like that so we can work with uh the professionals on maybe not having that if we're not comfortable with something to think about especially during migrations okay we that'd be something I think if if the board designates somebody their planner to evaluate bird safe lighting whoever you want to designate we get to that level of detail thanks um I'll quickly touch on storm water management uh we're not a major development however we are increasing the impervious coverage by 3,381 square feet so there's a requirement within Milburn to provide some sort of storage to address that and we've agree with Miss Callahan to uh to to manage that so it'll have to be some sort of detention pits or something a minor amount of it'll probably be um roof water from the new Carriage Houses is really the main source of new imperious so we'll U we'll do something under the plaza that addresses that okay uh we already talked about the flood application so I believe that's the end of my test okay I just want to come back with a a cleanup we did have those design waivers um on site average maximum average to minimum ratio and maximum to minimum um ratio we're exceeding on all of those so there's your testimony about having sort of additional lighting for safety purposes cover uh all four of those uh areas where we're seeking the design waivers that coverage average that covers average and average to minimum so I'm comfortable with that regarding maximum and maximum to minimum minum I mentioned uh that there's going to be lighting within the benches so there's there's benches that um go along the front and the side of the building and those have strips of light in them and just because the way that uh lighting is measured is measured on the ground so it's reading the bulbs in that strip lighting so the only spikes we get in our analysis okay or for the maximums is from that everywhere else where there's actually regular slight lighting is compliant so it's really a technical just a modeling issue it's not actually proposed to have significant maximum life just underneath the benches so really di Minimus and related to the aesthetic improvements on corre on the benches okay and then um one thing we didn't talk about was just the uh the buffer requirement which we notice for we're not really changing much but you just on this board um sh Show uh that there's a requirement of a of a buffer of 20% of the average width in 50 feet and then you need a stockade or wood fence and U you know it it expresses a concern for for the Neighbors in the back what what do we have now and what's proposed these are all existing variances there's there's three lots on the Northern side of the property Lot 10 lot 11 and Lot 12 those have a requirement of a 50 foot um buffer to them uh which is under existing conditions is not there and there's also an allowance for a stock a fence that uh in the ordinance which is existing so there's an existing stock aade fence um for Lot 10 the set the set back there 50 foot required the existing is 20.8 again that's to remain with the fence for lot 11 uh again it's 50t required 24.1 is existing to remain with the stock a fence and then for Lot 12 50 foot required there's a separation of 44.9 Ft uh that's existing to remain now the stock a fence doesn't go all the way to the road uh to the property line but if it did it would be blocking the site triangle so that would be unsafe so there's a stock fence that that terminates um along the buffer for Lot 12 um but but that's existing condition to remain I think it' be unsafe to extend it to the right okay so we we called it out that's not in the area of the improvements no really uh but we called it out to to be on the safe side I want you to go through and Mr Keller will uh touch on it um so talked about a lot 15 um front yard uh we have these side yard setbacks um Adam that's because we're going over the property right can you show the board where that is you know that's the carriage house that the board appreciates there's supposed to be lot setbacks we believe when the town makes the purchase they're going to own all three lots they're going to remove the lot lines but this is a technical variant it does exist but it's really to the split ownership today between paper mill owning lot 15 but that's going to go away uh pretty soon um so G variance exists on 15 correct for use yes because yes because it's R six right it's R six so it's a it's the we're we're we've we've conceded for these purposes that it's a the restaurant is a principal use can make some arguments it's really subordinate and accessory but to simplify matters and to move this along we're we're saying look it's a principal use it's a modest they're not going to be used at the same time at Full Tilt but yes the restaurant expansion into the r what's now the orphan R six parcel that used to have a house on it that now has a parking lot that's not connected to other R six I I'm making some argument along the way I appreciate that Latitude chairman to help explain the appli to you and to the to the public so yes the carriage house is a restaurant cons we're considering it a principal use for these purposes it's going into the R6 and restaurant is also not permitted in the CD technically but been there obviously for a long time sure any okay um we have a little bit on loot coverage uh we're over already we're going up by 400 144 square feet yes correct Adam correct you know overall yeah that's on the that's on lot 15 so we're going from 64.7 to 66.1 so also kind of there are quite a few variances We Believe many of them are are quite minor um okay Building height lot coverage on Lots 134 we're going up uh there from 71 to 73.6% correct and that's obviously the dark orange areas are uh adding some more uh footprint so our lock coverage is going up uh over there okay we talked about the set front yard setbacks we talked about the rear yard setbacks and on Lots 13 and 14 we also have sort of the issue with um that was the that's the set back based on the height right side yard setbacks based upon the height yes correct okay I think we covered um just about everything I'm in the notice from the Civil Engineering um side chairman so I think we're done okay any question just one more question this isn't here but the glass I'm a little concerned about the glasses there got to be reflection on that at any point that may impact the neighbors like just from the Sun is there Don you want to try that come on back up sorry yeah board member tru's concerned about glass reflection on neighbor that GL very good question neighbor yep glass selection is an in a science is very important it's important for Birds important for reflection heat gain uh transparency uh it it is something that we we look at all of those things when we pick the ultimate class so the make the ultimate decision on the class so we will do that once we get to that point so as best as you can figure that will not create a reflection onto something as house that could be absolutely yes we will endeavor to do so thank you any other questions for uh Mr Westberg board anyone sorry have a question said you spoke to the police we talking about the roundabout now drop off Lane there a sket that was submitted to the record yeah with my May 31st submission that's why we have that there you have that I I have may 208 well that's the letter I think I I submitted on May 31st right and do we have yes okay so we have a letter dated May 31st and there was a an attachment to that right yes so the sketch was attached there's a crosswalk exhibit that was submitted as part of the letter on May dated May 28th do you have that Miss DAV letter for me dated May 31st with a letter to Sergeant Barbosa vague recollection yeah it's on Papermill plouse letterhead if that helps search that looks yes that's that is it there should be an exhibit that got attached to right I actually have hand out okay yeah let's mark it and let's hand it out will there be any vehicular access to that courtyard or is it strictly uh pedestrian strictly pedestrian it'll be blocked by baller they may be removable for the purpose of fire access ory access um so we're going call this 813 what do you want to call this Adam so this is a crosswalk exhibit it's dated May 16 2024 crosswalk exhibit and what was the date May 16 2024 a13 okay this is that could be on May because I I know the letter went in it's there's a chance this exhibit didn't go but we have to double check let take us through this real quick okay Adam do you have it or you want to use this one I'll use that one I minute okay 8813 this was in respon we can t this up do that okay so you we got comments from Sergeant Barbosa wasn't particularly happy uh and you met with them and you're able to resolve your differences as far as you know we sent them a letter after saying there's what we talked about and agreed to and I think we got an email back back from him saying he was okay yes correct so going to go through the two thrusts of it briefly if you can so we can try to get to our next sure sorry no problem the crosswalk is moving about uh 30 feet to the north just to um allow for better pedestrian access directly to the theater this was a response to Mr varbo so he didn't want the the existing crosswalks that's there will be cutting through the drop off area so we moved it outside of the proposed drop off area or will be a conflict bringing the bringing the pedestrians into the Bus drop off right okay it's there now but it's a little bit of a different setup so we're alleviating the situation that's there bet you're gonna get out of arguably okay um so you showed him this and and he's you moved the crosswalk yes and then we just uh he wanted more access for the shuttles so we we like it okay so and we also had an agreement that the shuttles are not going to do any more turn arounds they're going to go up Brookside and and loop back around there was some discussion of that because this was a chance to sort of look at overall traffic and pedestrian safety and since we have an application pening correct right and some agreements were made to you know to direct and I think that change has already been implemented correct correct with the shuttles are not going to Endeavor to turn around but they'll they'll loop around the street they no longer go south back down Brookside they continue North and utilize bav to get back to downtown on okay so an interum Improvement yes uh any other questions from the board uh Mr West just my ification topology is it's your planner who wrote a 25 page report you referring to it in the record no fair enough they wrote a very extensive report uh on this the board's planner they had a couple of technical issues in there about you know picking at the benches and that sort of thing those are obviously agreeable to benches trees I think a couple other um items no no issues with with uh with those comments any questions from the audience for Mr Westberg come on down um out of your way no geld 11 Alexander just some clarification um because we didn't see can you just point out for public where the four EV charger stations going to be located because which parking lot or just identify which parking lot they will be in sure we're planning on locating those adjacent to the carage house that's four spaces that P in towards it here which was I guess in lot 15 required um you talked about an application being submitted to the DP you used the word we I have problems when we use the word we because right now some of the property is owned by Paper Mill and some property is owned by the township can you tell me who submitted the application to the D was assigned by both Milburn and was it both signed by Paper Mill and when was that submitted uh they both they were signed by both entities the township of Milburn and the paper mill Playhouse as the owners of the two lots and it was submitted in May I don't have the exact date around May 8th all right thank you that's it any other questions CM down Arjun ra I live at 246 Glen Avenue a RJ n uh last name r a o 246 Glenn Avenue uh one of the three houses that are right next to the uh North Side the backside par the stream oh yeah that's right yeah yeah U I had a question about I'm sorry point it out so you know they know exactly this one yeah tax yeah um I had a question about the lighting upgrades of the parking lot uh will any additional lights added there also be on timers and also will any measures be taken to ensure like the directionality of the light doesn't flood into backyards yeah absolutely so the lights will be on timers we need to uh work a little bit as to when events end and then subsequently when lights turn off for for safety so that they will be on timers we're going to work out the details of that and then lights will all be or proposed fixtures will all be pointed away from the property lines our goal would be to have zero foot candles at the property line so that would be no uh illumination Crossing off of our subject property thank sure any question that goes for the uploaded trees too yes not going to spill no they're they're pretty low level we'll we'll do what we need to do to make sure that they don't spill yeah I'm sell Reef n Brook Side Drive your question um yes this is longstanding but we live right across from uh the theater and we're concerned about the buses that since you're talked about the shuttles there are a lot of uh commotion and even uh against the ordinance for Idol even for buses that go along and U I want to know if there's anything in your plan about having the buses just do a drop off and then leave and go I don't know where yeah but go somewhere else because I see many times people coming out of the Lots or you know both Lots uh the 15 and the other lot um there's there was a crash about a year ago right in front of my house house and then the people you know there's a lot of elderly and a lot of infirm people and uh so your your question ma my question is are there safety uh plans in place and other ideas about the flow of traffic do you have anything yeah I know that we were speaking with Sergeant Barbosa he um is one of several officers that operate during theater performances to ensure that pedestrians are moving and vehicles are moving so uh we took his input on the design of where the crosswalks would be where passenger vehicles would be to help improve since he is the one he is a member of a group of people that would be uh directing traffic you know we wanted his input and so we took into those considerations so and then in addition to that the new drop off area we have is trying to get people uh definitely out of the flow of traffic of Brookside It's a larger area than that's there today so that cars can get out of the way uh take the time to make the drop offs they need to like you said for elderly people and things like that um and then and then pull away uh and continue on Brookside Drive so there's a larger area for vehicles to make a drop off safely directly onto the sidewalk they can go right into the theater under the carriage house uh and so those those areas we believe have been upgraded from the current condition and another corer to that is uh buses tend to sit for sometimes in the winter especially for the whole for the duration of the show and they idle yeah and since our properties are very close to the road uh it we it reverberates into the home so I don't know if that's anything that could be included into the plan for the flow yeah I remember you mentioned that at the other hearing um yeah that's against Town ordinance so so I'd call police and they'll have them shut down yeah that would probably be the school buses dropping people off um so we we can ask L but honestly probably calling the police would be the the best alternative the yeah because there were those just like sitting in a school waiting for a child you can't have your engine on yeah yeah that that's the you know that's the aggravation and some of some of them are the large coach buses sure okay thank you sure additional question please forward Patricia wolf 11 Brookside Drive right next to my neighbor uh buses parking idling the whole show across right across stre question a question is where can the buses go after they drop the people off so this is referring to to all performances well for the the shuttles that would typically operate during a performance talk about the buses the big ones so that would be more for the like the schools that come and visit during the day for performances that would be like you know senior groups coming in to see a m for any evening performs okay um I'm not sure where they uh where they go there's nowhere uh on the existing property for them to to stay during typical evening performances I didn't know that was uh and and mat especially mat okay just just a question to think about where can the buses go once they drop people off and they are obstru people are walking across the street and on the sidewalks and stuff um during drop off time and after performances and then you have a um a caffin of buses and cars trying to get out and people trying to get to their cars and the buses are we need to keep it to questions I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry my question is asked sure hear you you have a question down name that is please yeah Douglas Miller 35 Brookside Drive I had a couple questions um about lighting you said that the the lighting in the courtyard the foot candles were greater than what the town permits correct yes you also the architect mentioned that they're going to really enliven the space with these glass facad on the carriage house and the playhouse so all those lights inside the theater and the carriage house won't they spill out into the courtyard as well and create a lot more additional illumination Beyond uh the sight lighting um I don't know the the nature of the build of the lights inside the architectural building um my understanding is that they generally will not be spilling out through the glass uh that the the sight lighting is preliminary preliminary provided by the lighting that's exterior and there won't be a significant amount of lighting that escapes out into the courtyard how do you prevent light from uh leaking through a glass so you can uh have the bulbs not directly exposed to the exterior but rather uh lighting up interior wall Spaces by splashing light onto them and then those aren as reflective to uh escape the building but the lighting inside will increase the Illumination in the courtyard there may some minimal increase to the lighting outside okay uh is there any other plans for lighting in the parking lots I see I looked at the site plan online and there the sight lighting improvements are limited to the courtyard and the strip of access along the brook itself is there any plans for improving the lighting in the all the other adjacent parking lots yes there's a separate project going on with paper mill whe they're considering improving some of the lighting across the street uh and also in the uh the parking lots that are part of this application um just to improve the the lighting there and to to unify it a little bit yeah I'm concerned with the increase in illumination there's been no documentation or information provided for that and if it's part of this entire scope of project the lighting if we're going to light up the parking lots like a Walmart parking lot or a Shar right would definitely change the public perception of that area much more so than the conservative lighting that's in the parking lots now it would be part of a additional approval so it would be under additional review from a different application so it come back before the board of adjustment or possibly the planning board not sure I think that goes to uh what this overall impact of this entire project in my opinion I think you have a question yes okay parking uh you said that uh the parking uh is reducing the number of spots by 10 what is currently you know living directly across the street I see the parking at every single event it's uh over capacity as it is um is there a fire lane provided on these plants uh we have uh spoking with the Fire Marshall and he has not uh deemed the fire lane to be necessary so there's no fire lane on the parking lot so you're eliminating the fire lane that exists now correct the Fire Marshall decided it was no longer necessary okay uh so with the increase in uh use of the carriage house and the the increase in scale of the actual theater itself there's going to be additional concessions there's going to be more weight staff more cooking staff so that's more employees uh coming on to the site so if we're reducing the parking by 10 and adding more staff won't that impact the parking to a greater degree than what currently exists now the parking requirements generated from the township ordinance takes into that consideration so the three spaces per I'm so sorry the the one space per every three theater seats factors in the number of employees and number of then guests attending as well but you're already I think 33 seats uh parking spaces shy so that could be a potential we represented that the adjacent parking areas and the parking uh that's provided downtown uh is sufficient for the um the number of guests that are attending so with the increase inas in capacity of the carriage house you're taking a 80 seat restaurant and upgrading it to 222 seat restaurant so all those people that park downtown and go to a restaurant um and then walk up to the paper mill they'd be more apt to park at the paper mill itself and take up that extra 140 seats in the restaurant that were that are currently not available well that uh tax the parking lot and and uh res result in the parking lot filling up much more quickly a lot more traffic Milling around um currently the uh valet parking run out of spots and they have about a dozen cars parked on Brookside Drive with their flashers going for the entire uh length of the performance there anything planned to mitigate the increase in in Need for parking with a redu net reduction in spots yeah there may be additional people that that where we restaurants in downtown and come eat at The Carriage House the people that are arriving at a later time just for the theater performance may be directed to park in areas downtown and then paper mill runs a shuttle service uh to the theater so that would probably be a reversed where people that were previously parking downtown maybe parking here first as they arrive early per for for performances people that are arriving for just the performance may be downtown and then shuttled up so they're more swapping but it' be the same clientele as today because like I said the number of spaces in the the number of seats in the theater is not changing all right thank you any other questions uh Mr Westberg for Beth Miller 35 Brookside Drive of Milburn um I just had a question so is the only time the restaurant going to be open with this 222 seats um when the theater Productions are happening on those nights or or do you think it will be open other nights as well so Mr stas testified to this in the beginning so it will be open on other nights uh so they'll have separate events and performances I don't know if I want to go into all that detail but it will be open other nights the idea is that the theater won't be open and so the required number of spaces for the parking spaces for the carriage house is definitely sufficient because there's not nearly as many seats in the carriage house as there is in the theater so just on night when the carriage house is open there's more than enough parking okay and but but it's my understanding that uh there also is a possibility that those spaces might be rented out as well for rentals such as for weddings and corporate functions um so wouldn't that increase the need for parking significantly well that would never happen during a theater performance so the theater performance is the a number one demand for par any wedding or a corporate event or anything is a much lower scale and there'll be more than sufficient parking for those events because there's we believe there sufficient parking for the theater okay all right so you think that will cover yes okay thank you ju just to try to clarify that point if I may so if if all four of these separate rooms was used at once we'd have 222 seats yes is what we testify to so that's really only one fifth of the theater we're not saying all two 22 are going to be used at once but on these other nights with the theater as Mr Scots testified um is going to be in use around 190 nights a year and on those nights The Carriage House wouldn't be rented out for other sorts of events as as Adam testified you know the theater is the sort of number one thing on those other nights people may be coming but you're talking about if it was totally packed 222 that's like one of the theater size so I think Adam's testimony they agree with me that look on those nights there's really going to be a lot of parking you know available so they're not used together it's not one plus one got for the notice we added them all up one plus one equals you know the total C it's not effectively going to be used like that you're following I do but also you have you're predicting outdoor seating right uh I don't believe we are I don't think I don't think there's gonna be set outdoor SE so you're not gonna have any outdoor events we didn't we're not adding yet another 100 seats if you're if if he's to speak he's gonna have to come up yeah we're trying to address the concerns I get it okay all right and and just one last thing you're going to have a bar in there as well is that correct a bar yeah like you know for drinks and what I think alcohol will be available yeah okay so that might also increase the was the currently one now yes okay yeah so that may also attribute I believe the 222 seats includes seats at the bar as well as seated seats at tables includes every different type of seat available in the restaurant okay so that's total yes okay all right thank you we think there's a good buffer compared to theater any further questions for Mr westenberger okay chairman if I can call Mr Keller see if I can get him qualified sure yes I do and you're testifying tonight as a a planner Mr CER that's correct and you've been recognized as an expert on more occasions than can count this board the planning board as well as about 100 boards throughout the state there there are members of the public who haven't been here testified before many boards as a planner and your license is not only a planner also an engineer I'm a license engineer and planner state of New Jersey licensed since 1990 and both um and I've appeared before approximately 100 boards throughout the state of New Jersey and six different uh uh County court systems okay and you've been uh involved for a number of months in planning the project and helping to uh understand the variances and tonight to explain the variances and the relief that's necessary my firm's been working for with the paper mill for over 30 years uh we're not the engineers on this project we uh we are involved in the planning and we've been involved uh throughout the process chairman I'll Mr CER is an expert planner thank you cred accepted by this board pleas okay walking away from me already you're right your next exhibit is going to be um 14 if you get to it okay we gotta call it out mark it and call it out with a date this is a 14 and it is a both of these at some point it is a uh a copy of the engineering overall site plan that we've added some annotations to um just to help clarify because I thought the um the proposed drawings are are very clear but was difficult to necessarily was the uh was the delation between the lot lines this is uh it does not have a separate date other than today since I'm dating it 819 okay so we're GNA call it overall site plan with annotations August 19th 2024 for the record A14 correct so um what we did on this plan is first of all we've delineated uh the the demise the the differentiating line between the lot 15 which is in the r six single family residential Zone and lots 13 and 14 which are the remainder of the site to the to the uh North where the paper mill and the entirety of the uh Kirby Carriage House are located currently as was indicated lot lot 15 to the right uh did have a single family uh rental house sort of in a sea of pavement um was uh under maintained um when the property became available paper mill bought it and the first thing was demo the house because it was actually in in very poor condition and dangerous to some great so uh right now we have is an existing non-conforming condition where we have a parking lot uh commercial parking lot in a single family residential Zone um that was always a use variance um but uh that uh that's what the site is today and then the blue line is the rest of the property you can see uh what I was also trying to stress was the uh in the Papermill building itself the blue area is the existing portion of the uh building that will remain unchanged and then the the green line is the existing front of house that's being removed off the property um that is being replaced by the areas that is shaded gray and part of the build where the building got smaller we highlighted that in a uh in a slightly Dusty yellow um sort of natural pavement color to show that the building is actually moving backlight slightly to allow a little more room on that Plaza that combined with the fact that they're moving the uh circulation of the Vans off of that area into a much safer area so there's less uh less uh conflicts with pedestrians coming out of the paper mill and trying to get into the buses they've been now moved out of the way so there's actually a little more breathing room into that into that into that uh Terrace and it's also been made more handicap accessible at the same time the the other thing that we did then is on the paper mill you can I'm sorry on the Kirby house you can see um the green line is the portion of the Kirby house that's being removed uh the blue area again similar is the portion as to remain and the gray area is the addition what creates some of the confusion is that addition now goes over the property line so it blurs the property line and a portion of that restaurant is now on the single family residentially zoned uh property uh being R six hey Mr Kell you insist on calling it The Kirby house FM C Carriage House I've been calling a Carriage House keep going with Kirby if you like I'm going to try to call it Carriage House the um the last thing I wanted to show on this is the area of the two height um variances necessary for the D6 variants they're very small areas one is it's in the gray area that's shown the gray little square that's shown um above the portion of the front of the house is being removed uh what they're doing is that that covers over a stair bulkhead that allows for segregated and safe access up to the control room for the theater um and then there second one is about 136 square feet I think the first is about 85 square feet the second is about 136 square feet and that's is the bulkhead that U covers the stair that allows for workers to get up onto the roof where there is some mechanical up in that area and allows for maintenance of the roof and that basically is nestled in immediately adjacent to the uh to the area where um the building goes up to 59 ft so it is nestled in both of these um these D6 height variants requested areas are uh are shielded by the existing building and they're fairly U minimal in size it's SC the um so I just thought that was helpful to orient and then the last thing we showed is that um a significant portion of the paved area behind the building is being removed as Mr westenberg indicated the handicap spaces are being reoriented but to allow for uh manipulation of grad so you can get true handicap accessibility through the back of the building along the river uh that whole area is being uh reworked through a series of terraces paves and landscaped areas to allow for handicap access along the back and a nicer River Walk experience coming from the parking lot on the site up into between the building and into the courtyard in this to the front of house so um I used to do a seminar for the former chair Joe Steinberg's um law class at seen Hall um where we bring in cases and talk about them this would have been a great one because we could make a lot of arguments on this one I'm not going to because we're trying to go quickly but we could talk about this for three hours at a seminar so as to whether it's inherently beneficial whether these are conditional uses whether the accessory use the restaurant's accessory or it's actually uh ancillary um whether it's it's a whole new use um but we've decided to kind of take a more simple approach and say we're going to consider this on both of these lots to be D1 variances um we're not going to argue inherently beneficial which was in the in the application materials um but we're going to basically see this is a adichi case we we're arguing site suitability on both of the properties um to accommodate the restaurant use on that app on that site obviously the theater is a permitted use with the CD Cultural District zone uh so that doesn't need any any uh variance relief um I would uh point out that uh as was indicated the um sum of this discussion is moot because um we did the survey for the town when they purchased this property um they have now entered into an agreement as was indicated to purchase lot 15 um we have every reason to believe that once that purchase is completed um this slot these Lots these three lots which appear as two tax Lots three tax two three tax Lots but really two lots they will be merged into one um it's our feeling that this only remained an R six because there happened to be a single family residence otherwise back in 2018 when we did our last Master plane update or possibly even earlier that would have been taken out and the fact that the primary use was more driven by a commercial parking lot um than it was in R six um you know probably made a question Mark but I think it because that single family dwelling existed it was left in the r six and we think that's probably fairly shortlived um once this becomes uh merged so real quick on lot 15 so you're saying lot 15 years were you're requesting your D1 use right for your primary use or is that leaking on to 13 well we back we've back we asked to saying that even though the planning board deemed that it was an acccessory use even when they took the conditions away um and so you say well the restaurant was really has a islative history of being considered accessory and ancillary to the principal use and so we're expanding it it's still ancillary there's two Hang-Ups one is you do have a section of the ordinance even though it's approved that says you shouldn't have one more than one PR what if it's accessory then it's on one lot um we' decided it's a little easier and and I think less suspect to a challenge if we just say we need D1 for the restaurant and we also need it because it's going to operate throughout the year um you know the this this Kirby house sorry the The Carriage House services the uh the playhous for 190 days a year over eight months um but it also Services uh currently they have um murder mysteries they have cavaret nights they have other things they want to continue to do that and there have been weddings that have occurred on the site in the past whether they're wed they're married on the stage and there's a ceremony after so we want to continue that so we've decided to argue that um there's a a D1 required for the restaurant is a separate use and the uh on on Lots 13 and 14 and then there's also and there's two principal uses on the same site and then the second is that we are portion of that restaurant is onl so that's another so your fifth so so your C's though you have I think it's like Max front M side Max slot Max height right y those four yep and you're putting them on both then 13 14 and 15 right correct y so you're requesting them as one grouping on 134 and then also correct okay different standards apply we apply those standards but and I would point out that you know we we the ordinance doesn't allow you to break it down we said the maximum height is 59 feet in the areas where we're doing these additions that the building is much lower and the setback for these if if that didn't exist um certainly not the front because that's an existing not performing but on these other areas especially to the rear these um these setbacks would probably comply if it wasn't for this big bulky thing popping up that that's that setback so if I'm looking at from the neighbor's property and I'm not seeing the the taller back of house and over the stage I'm seeing this building in the front um it certainly seems appears to meet the rear yard setback um adjacent to my home but again it's a technicality and we want to sort of streamline it so we're just saying yeah we need a G6 variance for those two areas and we need rear yard setback for the building as it as to the to the uh East got it so and those C variances you know C variances are interesting because when you apply for a d variance um if the board finds that that you meet the criteria of the D variance that the uh that the site is prly suited those C variances get subsumed up into the variant so but but we can still make a very quick um argument as to why they apply under C1 and C2 just to make sure we cover all the bases the um by the way also touch on that 1992 resolution and why there's a request to eliminate the uh conditions that were on that so in the 1992 I think there were three conditions that um limited the use of the playhouse only to um reservations on the night of performances and I don't have it right in front of me so I'm kind of winging it but um and they also basically said um yeah that it could only be couldn't be a commercial use onto its own and it had could only be used on those nights um when the in 2000 and and the problem with that was the restaurant couldn't get a restaurant to would to run it because they couldn't make a restaurant work on such a limited schedule and um it just basically floundered and so I think at one point um uh Cafe Maine um D Kio um might even had Tom kikio as the chef there we had a celebrity chef cooking there and they still could make a run of that restaurant with that limited it only being open those even 190 nights because how do you buy food Etc and then what happens in the four months in the summer when you're up what do you do so they came back in 2000 and they asked that those three conditions be removed which the board agreed to do with the Proviso that um they come back on a regular basis to make sure that they're still not negatively impacting any of the neighbors that um seems to have dropped by the wayside it was a surprise to Mike STS when when we did some research when the the architect sorry the attorney did some research and found those resolutions so but I will say at the time it was always referred to as being an accessory use and even when when the board relaxed those conditions or removed them and said this can be a commer they said it can be a commercial Enterprise now and it can operate all year long uh they didn't send it over to the board of adjustment as a new restaurant you say maintain jurisdiction which makes it's led me to believe that it was considered to be an accessory use still uh in anul the primary use and therefore uh jurisdiction was maintained by the planning board however I think in terms of the argument we're happy because I think that it's a it's a relatively uh easy demonstration that this site is particularly suited for the proposed two uses on one site and lot 15 is particularly suited to have a restaurant leak into it by its proximity to the primary parcel and uh and we can still show the uh enhanced burden under medich um as to um consistency with the master plan sure so with regard to the um now that I've done most of my testimony here um so with regard to uh particular site suitability um we believe that uh certainly uh starting with lot 15 it is immediately contiguous to the uh to the CD Zone to the north with the theater and the carry house are currently located um that site contains 111 uh car parking lot that will continue to service the needs of the paper mill um I don't know any other residences that would claim their they uh contributing to the character of the r six neighborhood with the 111 car parking uh Zone um and certainly um the and the the parking uh that's on that actually allows for that building to to leak onto it or encroach onto it um with no loss in parking on the 111 car parking lot um the site is also Contin ties to the Board of Education parking lot and sports fields that are to the South which are zoned for public use so we're a little Island to ourselves there are four or six Lots across the street um but we're contiguous um to uh public Lots with a little bit of contiguity up to one of the residential lots on land but it really is an island unto itself and certainly when you're walking there it is isolated and it is really um I think appropriate um to to uh Service as uh parking and uh for a better restaurant configuration uh for the pap to support the paper Playhouse with regard to the uh two buildings on a single light uh s single site the site uh especially um as as it will consist of three lots can easily accommodate to two two separate structures um the configuration of the paper mill um it sort of does exactly what the current one does by pulling the the building back um the main Carriage the main um Lobby space back and allowing little breathability it still frames and cradles that that area uh that is meant for um you know people to come out and mingle during intermissions uh go across and get a drink if they not getting a drink inside um it allows for more of a Milling space and and a congregation space and it's cradled by that space uh with the new addition and as was indicated uh there's there's sort of a dialogue as there's a a replica of the old um Mill that now becomes the face of the South it's almost as that it it pulls apart and allows for the interstitial space uh to be a little more enlivened but still protected uh from noise Etc um by these two building wings and I would point out in terms of going back to the uh the sun sun coming down um you can have low emissivity glass you have glasses bless are effective but uh sun coming down is going to B back into that courtyard uh there is no sun coming from the north so you're not going to get any light that's going to be reflected anywhere towards U The Neighbors coming off the the Kirby I'm sorry the carriage house so I think in terms of sun um I think that there's no impact and I think this really reinforces it's an opportunity to reinforce that uh that safer especially now the buses are G the pickup shuttles are gone that safer congregation space um that's uh that's created by that so I think it's certainly uh this this property U can certainly accommodate having two principal uses on site um they almost touch as it is um at that one point and I think they will certainly um almost appear as one but it really does create a nice hierarchy of modern um as it pulls apart but it refers to the old the uh the proportions of the carriage house and I would say by the way the the height of that um Dormer right in there is about the same height so that's about 32 foot three inches that's why we came up with you know the first thing I said was why are we asking for variance for three inches and the archetyp being kind of a purist which I get and said well that was the here we extrapolated it over there so um rich on that issue it's an existing condition as well same on particular suitability right we have a a cultural campus so to speak and that's existing it's not materially changing with this I wanted to you to just touch on those points briefly uh yes okay cultural expansion of a cultural campus um that already exists um other other areas so I think we show particular site suitability um land use law says you can advance other purposes of land use act It Go quickly uh public health safety and general welfare we're actually making a safer drop off area and safer and handicap accessibility uh we're providing for a variety of recreational uh commercial uses to meet the needs of the community uh the site is looking to strengthen its uh campus cultural Hub and Gathering spaces within the community uh the ability to continue and expand um it's uh its cultural offing such as as I said before murder Miss summer nights Broadway Stars Etc provides an economic engine um not only for the paper mill playhouse but for the downtown businesses and it strengthens the community at large uh and as per Mike's uh STS testimony uh the township is actually pressing the paper mill to expand uh programming uh and and drive further economic benefit out of this uh out of this space uh so again this all support this uh uh this is supported by the fact that the township signed the board of adjustment application for the site plan with the exact same de and C variances that you have before you in their current form um and we think it certainly promotes a desirable desirable visual environment the D6 planning proofs uh come in the form of uh the the basically uh the gro versus spring uh Lake case says that it's kind of like a centry square case where you look at the purposes of the of the act as to uh how is the site is the building appropriate not withstanding those deviations and so generally um the uh the purpose for having height uh variant ordinances is to protect air light in open space and not so overwhelm the neighborhood and I think in these particular cases um that is uh that is not the case so uh the new bulkheads uh provide safe secure access to the control room and to the uh to the maintenance areas they're nestled against the uh largely and and largely obscured um by the existing taller back of house building we think this di minimation these deviations are di Minimus in fact um I don't think there's any real impact on airl in open space that advances the positive criteria if I look at all the negative criteria for both this D D1 D6 and any of the C variances um we think they can AR be argued under C1 and C2 C1 were the shape of the property the presence and location of the West Branch of the Ry River and its Associated flood plane or reparan Zone uh the existing topography and importantly the location of the lawfully existing structures on the property including uh the existing buildings which Drive the location of the pro proposed improvements and the location of the existing parking lots both on our site um all that combines to create hardships or practical difficulties when upgrading the paper mill Playhouse without the need for guance Relief the front yard and the rear yard setback areas those are really driven by the building is there already if building is there make improvements you got to work around the and this exhibit is designed to show that all of our improvements are really biasing ourselves away from those either environmentally critical areas or the neighboring properties across on Glenn Avenue and they are going into areas where buildings have already existed so as was indicated there's really very negative really minimal impact on the on the footprint it's really a lot of a lot of this project is driven about creating thank God bathrooms um as well as a better Lobby space the um the what you did just there was you talked about some of the reasons if we use the C1 and the C2 criteria uh assuming the C variances are not subsumed it's kind of the rationale sort of stands on its own is that that you're thinking and going over that yeah and I think that these are the uh this represents a better planning alternative than a conforming application um that's the C2 criteria the flexible C we advancing purposes of the land use act um at the same time the benefits outweigh any detriments because I think the detriments are all pretty minimal and the uh uh again it's really driven as a um there are areas that we think just simply work better um and prate C1 the front yard setbacks but I think the uh um the height the height for the C1 VAR the C1 variance for height uh and any other variances I think we're advancing the purpos of the land use act through safety General Welfare better access for disabled uh providing for that variety of of uh of uses um Etc so and and creating a better design desirable um uh visual environment rich just for the record can you list the U specific subsection section two of Municipal land use law that believe further here so we have that on the record so under the uh the purposes of the land use act appearing at the municipal land use um um the law at 4055 D2 uh there's I think 14 or 15 of them we advance at least four of them that's uh section 2A promotion of public health safety General Welfare through those better access and amenities uh for disabled patrons uh G is to provide for a variety of recent recreational commercial uses and Open Spaces to meet the needs of the community and all citizens um e is the contribution to the well-being of the communi this is certainly um this is an economic engine for our downtown uh as well as the paper mill and promotes a a desirable visual environment um I would point out the paper mill was last upgraded in the 1980s and it certainly feels like that or earlier um so the benefits associated with these upgrades to the theaters again bathrooms refreshment areas merchandise areas uh elimination of pedestrian bottlenecks crowded corridors congregation areas improv drop off with fewer pedestrian conflicts new railing systems handicap accessibility um functionality of the theater um private SEC secure control um to the access areas part of this bump out in the on the side here uh facing the river is because there's no way to get from the front of the house and the ticket office to get behind the stage without going through the theater so that allows for a safe uh segregated access so that uh the the Papermill can function better um so I think these all justify the minor degree of variance relief for front side rear setbacks lock coverage the buffers and the building height uh the parking um it can't be stayed it can't be overstate if you built a 2,000 car parking space a lot here they would come but we don't want that um in fact a lot of the complaints are really operational um I have come to the downtown I'll give you my hidden parking SP spot I park at the library I go to dinner in the downtown and if I'm running late I hop on a shuttle bus because there's always shuttle buses waiting to take you up to the paper mill at the after end of the day I walk back into the downtown um either have a drink uh visit friends or back to the library lot I think that uh the um the parking is U managed through the shuttle that goes to both the train station as well as to the Downtown parking lots and it run it starts running at 2:3 in the afternoon and runs still after the show um I think that's what we want similar to in malls where you try to create a circuitous path between storage because you want people to cross as many of the stores as possible we want people to go to those restaurants we want people to um Park in the downtown take the shuttle bus um and we need to enforce that and I think that actually the the shuttle operations will be much improved through the uh through the new Courtyard configuration the um so I think that we've dealt with the um I I don't see much in the way of any negative uh criteria that that hasn't been um that uh hasn't been affected there's no substantial detriment in my opinion to the public good because there really are no material changes from what's happening today uh the parking will continue um continues to the that downtown and train station shuttle um not only mitigates against any negative associated with parking uh short full it's a benefit to the downtown business district um most of the C Varian are existing non-coring conditions that will remain or or are nominally being increased or they are technicalities from that split lock condition that's going to go away at some point um or the effects are mitigated by the placement of improvements Rel to the existing development by keeping things forward and creating that courtyard uh type feeli um the benefits of the Carriage House expansion um by the way they've got four different Siz rooms it's not as though they can open up the doors and you can seat 222 the idea is if you have an 80 seat a 60 seat a 40 seat and a 20 seat you can tailor your space to the needs of that of that Community or if you're having a um um a murder Myster on the second floor you can meet in the bar space where there's 20 bar stools and then you can go upstairs for your murder mystery so it's not that they're intended to function and nor could the restaurant the kitchen even with this expanded kitchen area be able to see feed 222 people at once and history has proven from the 1980s through now you're not going to get two seatings at this restaurant just doesn't happen um so I think the uh the benefits uh to the community um is that it's a Community Asset um it's less about doubling the number of seats and more about providing right siiz spaces for any particular event and again the community feedback from the township committee was that they wanted this space leveraged um um as an asset uh with more use as well as the theater space um additional benefits uh um not mentioned so far um is the impr improved sight lighting and yes if you measure the light right at the bar strip on the bottom um it's it's bright but when you stand back um what's most important is our zoning or our ordinance for lighting is very strict and it really focuses on on uh uniformity we're very we're we're in great shape on we're over on uniformity we're very low and I think part of that reason was um the township wanted to make sure that somebody couldn't do a lighting plan and not have to come back for site plan approval so um almost any plan is going to is going to require any new plan in the future is going to require um some kind of deviation from that light standard which means even if they did nothing else any application would have Fe to come back to the board of adjustment or the planning board as part of a site plan or a variance application so any time when when we look at that um when the engineer looks at the other lot um they're going to they're going to that's going to be a time when engineering and either this board or the planning board we'll get another shot at it so um lastly um I won't go into all the purposes of the master plan that we're advancing um the goals and objectives um because we we Advanced a number of them but uh I will say that there is also a requirement that you reconcile the omission of the use from the zoning District um from the zoning um uh ordinance and that's the enhanced burden approve and I think that uh this one is fairly easy because um the site was always contain a single family house now that it doesn't it's going under common ownership we think the township Comm committee is going to rectify that they've made the move to purchase it they've authorized um this application go forward with the variant relief um the belief is that once those that the those lots are emerged um that issue will have been dealt with so I don't I don't think it will be um a non-permitted use for long but for various reasons it was important for the paper mill to move this forward with timing it's very difficult to do this um and work around your Seasons uh timing issues as well as funding uh enthusiasm it was important that we move forward so I think that we meet um there's no negative impact to the uh to the uh to the neighbors which can be mitigated either through measures that have already been made or some reasonable conditions on timing and things like that and then otherwise I think uh um we've uh We've certainly satisfied both the positive and negative criteria and we ask that you okay Rich I just want to spend two more minutes looked at the 2018 Master Plan update and the 2021 Vision plan y that's correct and you're you're comfortable that uh the master plan uh has been considered and the goals are further and those goals kind of mimic the things you've talked about but you took a close look at the master plan master plan goals goals and objectives page 43 and 45 goal number one um uh objective 1.04 um provide uh encourage appropriate land uses to promote the character of the township as a suburb of the highest quality I sat through all of the planning uh seminars where they were the um they reached out in advance of the 2018 Master Plan update they reached out to the community at the bower Center the number one thing that everyone kept sighting is the thing they're most proud of at toown and the thing I'm proud of every time I come out of performance is the Papermill Playhouse they love the proximity to the to the reservation they love the fact we had a a movie theater if we don't anymore but but the number one overriding source of project for this community was the Papermill playhouses presence um so goal number one goal number three um was theall what's that was um recognize and encourage Township organizations and activities and strengthen business and social networks um I think that certainly does that maintain and enhance goal number four maintain and enhanced economic Vitality to downtown and other business districts objective 4.03 leverage opportunities for new commercial development or Redevelopment existing properties where appropriates and this is an economic engine for our downtown um the you know when uh moonshine opened up martinis was afraid it was going to kill their business and we said it's going to lift Rising tide lifts all boats it'll do better and that's exactly what happens this is not going to steal diners from the downtown it's going to create more enthusiasm for people who can't get one of those seats at the Kirby they're going to go downtown you lucky enough to get one at the Kirby you'll go there but I think it's not G again Rising tide lifts all boats in our opinion and it's been proven over and over I don't think this is something that competes with the downtown augment it and will augment it for the other other than the 190 days they support the theater I think it'll be an asset to our downtown so I think it's certainly consistent with the the goals and objectives of the 2018 Master Plan upate update and the 2021 Vision plan up okay and then two last questions under mediche we have to have this an enhanced quality of proof that's what the Supreme Court talked about on the negative criteria you discuss that you're comfortable that this application meets that in hand quality of proof because of the minimal detrimental impacts and it's an existing campus that's being um you know moderately changed and the and the fact that the township committee is acting now okay and then on the reconciliation part T says we have to reconcile the fact that uh restaurants aren't permitted in the r six and we talked about a couple of factors that this is sort of an orphan lot the townships sign the application they're buying the property they obviously approve of this application even though uh the uh the zoning hasn't changed yet well past ordinances and past um legislative um documents have indicated that past boards have considered the restaurant to be in excessive reuse um and so I don't I don't know that they have to necessarily consider that in this case but the fact that they've signed off on this application with a freestanding restaurant um encouraging it its further use I think gives us the uh helps us to reconcile the fact that um the township committee is actively um looking to remedy that situation um that's been hanging around since that darn two family hous was or one family house was sitting in the middle of a of a parking lot and so I think it's being actively changed now thank you I appreciate that compreh that's that's any questions from the board Mr Keller um this is not a planning thing it's just an overall question I should have asked the architect I can't believe no one's asked you what happened to goldfish what's going to happen to goldfish goldfish Pond there I mean part of the area there it's a very Charming Oldtown feel and I I I understand we have to modernize because you can't be stuck but part of it is that's fun for children it's fun for all of us to see that setting so it's it's a serious question what happens to I think actually I think Mr stats was at that last time and said it would probably not remain in its it's it's site on the hood and there won't be any sushi I promise um but uh no I I I think that uh um I think must Mr stots also said is a lot of little details like the railings like re and and so they're not intending to throw all that brick away was said from the existing facade they're going to use it someplace else but it's not going to go into the facade um that is a replica um but they want to use that elsewhere and what they can't use they will put on the market as Salvage but um those little details we haven't decided yet and so um if you Lobby hard enough I suspect Mr STS will consider that any other questions from the board party testimony any questions from the audience regarding testimony please go forward there's questions only from Mr Keller yes Mr Keller um since the restaurant will be expanded um will there be and there'll be commercial Enterprises uh weddings this kind of thing um will who will be administering who will be running the restaurant will it be the paper mail will it be a private Corporation and if it is private corporation that maybe makes a bid or comes in and runs the restaurant will they be responsible for the increased sanitation and possible roded population that could expand due to a restaurant being so close to residential earings I don't have the answer to that I think um Mr STS indicated last time they they'd like that flexibility but there's been there's no intent to turn this into a web um but they like some flexibility to program that and weddings that occurred and most people have not known that there was 18 20 25 people there for a wedding not only weddings like if if a restaurant came in and they wanted to rent out and create their own restaurant within there would there be an agreement to do that and if they do that who will be administering and watching over how that's taken you know let Mr STS take a look Mr STS any any current intent on that no paper mill intends to operate the restaurant that's really my question yeah and so all the responsibility they've got a brand to yeah that's again Jeffrey Feld 11 Alexander Lane Short Hills New Jersey I want to thank you for your presentation because you could clarify a lot of issues and other issues but I just want to understand a few things historically when did you so you You' been involved but when did you get involved in this cultural campus Expansion Project specifically with the orphan lot because I think that a lot of the confusion is coming from lot 15 based on the discussion because it's in a different zoning area because you clarifi that issue well when did you personally your firm get involved in this expansion issue uh we didn't get involving the expansion issue until uh December of 2022 22 y all right because my concern is paper mill acquired lot 15 and I think actually I should double check that I think we our job numbers go by date I think we actually did some so may have no because my concern is now we're talking about a gap series The Paper Mill acquired lot 15 I believe in early 2023 or 20 closed in April or so yeah Mr St testified on that yeah closed and based on the zoning they demolished the single residential house the question for is single residential house is your testimony that for a year or prior to the township committee approving this acquisition the current owner which is the Papermill Playhouse is complying with current zoning law by tearing down and operating an expanded parking lot during this Gap period because I think your testimony was a lot of these issues that we're talking about will be cured if remember if the township committee approves the acquisition of this lot and there's no litigation challenging what they do I'm just saying during this period of time did the paper mill comply with you're asking for a legal opinion no I'm not no no it's planing because he was talking about say from From planning's perspective you know I get in trouble this because I I own a surveying company and I get in trouble when I say lot lines are imaginary so they they are real so they're called real estate oh I got you surve over there too but we don't but we don't see them uh in this case you don't you won't see that line delineated anywhere because the prop whether the property stays as through a complicated Arrangement State as two owners or a state comes as one owner um the we put in the proofs to allow for that building to cross the property lines and so I think we've we've satisfied the proofs in support of why we think this is a good application regardless of of who owns what Lots that's going going in the future I'm saying today because I like to go talk to the tax collector because you're saying that surveys mean nothing for 2020 I mean I just want to get more I just my real specific question is is for a year has the current owner which is the paper mill not the township have they been complying with the local zoning wall if you think that's a legal opinion you can't answer it don't answer it just say I don't think it's gerain necessarily to the planning purp I I think it proves but there's other issues we haven't received a violation notice from the zoning officer on you know was historically used as a parking lot we don't think it makes a difference so appreciate the question we also heard neighbors were just told by the chairman about an hour ago that they should complain to the police about the idling buses any further questions from the audience for Mr Kell Doug Miller 35 Brookside Drive again uh I have some questions I don't know if they're specifically for Mr Keller if he's the best person to uh address them or Mr STS or one of the other experts that you come come come on Mr we don't have to scream Mr St you understand you're still on the RO in the last meeting yes okay thank you uh so there was some mention of outdoor uh entertainment and dining this evening but I haven't heard any real testimony about it and you know what the hours of operation are for the new expanded uh Carriage House restaurant uh you that's my my first concern that you know there was no notice and none of the documentation spoke about outdoor entertainment or outdoor dining um can you answer that question yeah it's consistent with what we currently do um and have over the last several years with the Brookside cavalary and other things we tried to take advantage of the nice weather and uh moved our operation Outdoors um I would say that uh even last week we had two events outdoors and both of them we're done by 9:30 p.m. so what we want to do in the future is consistent with what we're currently doing which is in the nice weather people like to be outdoors and uh whether it's for dining or we have a piano bar out there we would like to be consistent um with that practice um we are proposing uh that you know any outdoor activities they all move in by 11:00 p.m. and usually they don't even run to 11:00 p.m. and that the carriage house nine times out of 10 will close at midnight um we're not looking to greatly expand the operation we're not looking to turn it into a wedding venue we are not looking to compete with the Pleasantdale Chateau or the hilt n Hills that is not our business we don't want to do anything that's going to threaten our nonprofit status and that would be a very commercial Enterprise we want to do things that enhance the overall experience of coming to Papermill consistent with what we've been doing in the past few years thank you yeah I I think the improvements of the Papermill are much needed especially in the front of the house I'm just concerned about that there's no real testimony or documentation about the hours of operation you want to say two hours uh after the last show ends so I know you've been very gracious and we've been communicating through email and you gave me a list of hours that you plan to be uh open uh what our times you plan to be closed what days of the week has that been shared with the board is that going to be part of the resolution it has not been shared with the board but if they would like it I can share them share with them if it remain to appliation so that will be part of the uh submission okay we would certainly entertain um some reasonable hours I think we we had talked about uh midnight uh what I closing down and then you know at nothing after 11mo Outdoors yeah uh the the way the the carage house is operating now is fine it's you know very uh discreet performances you know the murder mysteries the trivia night all those things are great and you know it says your intention know you are the director of the paper mill today know the paper mill has its ups and downs over the years a different director might come in and have a different vision for the paper mill what if it's a of 220 seat 22 seat restaurant that's a approved tonight with the bar and entertainment space um it's also going to be opened up as a commercial use uh for rentals so effectively it becomes a catering hall on you know basically half the year because of paper most basically dark six months of the year so what creates any limits as far as what the activity is there what types of activities you know if a different director comes in what prevents like a a you know a wild R type establishment or a DJ dance party or any of these things that have the real potential to have a negative effect uh you know the previous resolutions question yes answer okay so the mission of paper mill is to produce in the main stage that is our main priority is to program a facility that has 1,150 CS that's where the bread and butter is and that is what generates all of our revenue for the most part the restaurant is and and accessory use we want to use it more often and I can't imagine that in the future someone is going to make that the priority over what is happening in the main stage it would threaten the mission of the organization or nonprofit status and if if that's what a future director wants to do I think that they would have a lot of issues with the township who are landlords and they would have some sort of say in terms of the the new uh uh vision for whatever that that space is so if the board approves uh the changes in the expansion of the Carriage House alth those those things you said would be unlikely if they do happen and it's approved without any limitation what prevents that from happening I could go to the town and say this they're doing this at the paper mill it's not what I thought the intent was but if there's no limitations put on place now what prent something from happening in the future I don't know that this particular issue is going to be resolved with this body right now because it's an operational uh decision and all I can speak to right now is that paper Mill's mission is to produce on the main stage we have a restaurant and if any of that was going to change the nonprofit status of the organization might be challenged in which case I I believe everyone in the community would have some say in it um you know for losing the heart and soul of paper mill I have to say I I believe that the township uh as the landlord would also have something to say about a significant change in the mission of the organization okay uh one other thing I wanted to put on the record is we had discussed refu pickup currently it's you know in the middle of the night the truck pulls up the lights blare through my window and you've graciously accepted to have the recycling Refuge change to 7 a.m. or later is that correct yes that's correct okay that that's an agreeable condition yes okay you're working on that with the pick not so easy all the time the folks in that business sometimes they make mistakes but we're working on it and you're committed to change your those as a as a condition we respect that in the neighborhood okay thank you very much I really appreciate it any further questions from Mr K Mr STS regarding yeah anything a question for Council actually sure um the to the neighbors comment about um can we Define the operational limits of both the paper mill and or the restaurant seeing is how this applicant is Seeking a variance on principal use I believe that's correct can we in our in our approval Del ask the applicant to Define operational limits what is to to put in writing what is the the mission of the paper mill so that that stays solid the mission of the restaurant so that it couldn't be turned into a disco sometime is that in our sure I we can absolutely put that in part of the the resolution okay we're agreeable to hours of operation we're agreeable to hours of operation outside and uh to be clear uh what Mike testified to a couple months ago there the 190 days or so when the theater is uh lit up and there's a performance nothing is going to change on those nights Carriage House is really gonna close down except on five opening nights on five opening nights people will come back to the carriage house that's the intent but on those nights there's not going to be both the the restaurant and the theater opera ating after the um after the show starts so I just wanted to make that clear I think you appreciate that specifically speaking to defining the purpose the mission and the use that's going to take place in both okay we would you know I think it is a reasonable condition to uh try to work something I don't think you can do it in a public meeting but the board's inclined to approve we'll work with with Council to uh have some uh reasonable language we we understand the Public's concern anything for Mr that's that's it okay then I will close the other portion of this meeting chairman can I make one closing comment okay oh oh sorry sorry call okay all go ahead everybody knows we need five votes and I am requesting of the board if we're if after public comment we're ready to vote please let us know of any concerns because this is a matter of major public importance it's a multi-million dollar project and I had a case when I was about six months out of law school and I didn't have this discussion with the board and it was four in favor one against that's a denial and and I I I think that uh based upon the questioning and how the testimony has gone in I feel fairly comfortable but I'm asking the board members to let us know uh because going to request the vote uh and but we need everybody's vote we're entitled to seven upon upon um resolution of of the public comment struct board to tell you where they're at I I appreciate that so then you can make a decision whether or not you move forward the vote we appreciate that okay uh so at this point i' like to open up for public comments so uh if you'd like to come down please um your SAR you in you have to give your name an address and I ask people not to be repetitive so who would like to go first if there is any public comment yes I do Jeffrey Phil 11 Alexander Lane um I would just ask that you defer your vote until the next TC meeting which is I think September 3rd where they're going to vote on the acquisition because most of the arguments in Pro are all premise on the approval of the acquisition that's what they were saying about the merger the orphan L and or you had to make that in the resolution about the condition that this is all premised on we would make a a conditional approval that's that's my comment yeah any further comment on we'll swear you in once again name and record for the address record Beth Miller 35 bookside Drive Melbourne New Jersey um I just wanted to take a moment to talk about the historic nature of this property um when I first came to melburn one of the things that I was most excited about about moving into this town was to be near the paper Mo Playhouse and I was not only excited about that because it is a great theater venue and they do amazing shows there but also because of its connection to history and not only the connection to the history of New Jersey but more specifically representative of this town and where it came from and the people that developed it and made it and when I walk by that historic facade that's what I think about that that's the Legacy we leave that makes it a very special place now I know that this particular complex this cultural complex might not necessarily be on the national register of historic places maybe there's too many changes that have been made over time but yet this historic facade still exists let's be clear this is not historic this this facility is not historic it's not designated historic it's not a historic district it's not even a historic Zone but it's historic in nature it's over 100 years old so it's not designated historic but it is historic do you see what I mean not really but well generally do not his historic sure something dates back to 1856 most people would say in common conversation that that's historic it might not have a plaque on it it might not be a monument um but there is some connection to that history particularly because of its connection to the paper mill so I only ask you to just keep in mind that it's such a special place and I wonder if it will be as special if that particular facade is demolished sure we have to modernize yes there are accessibility needs um we need more restrooms but I can't help but wonder if there's a way to do that without really taking away the nature of what it is and making it less of a paper mill and what makes it so amazing and so great um so just something to keep in mind that I was hoping to share with you because I don't want that history and that relevance to be lost as we move forward and we modernize um because that history is really an integral part of what makes it significant thank you thank you any other comment regarding this application please come forward swe you in name and address [Music] Square from Tes hearing I do name add Douglas Miller 35 Brookside Drive Milburn New Jersey I I happen to have the print out from the email that Mr STS sent me regarding hours of operation who do I I give that to for the record um that can be submitted to ien okay um and you know we'll also require that to be submitted by the applicant as well okay much thank you sure any other comment regarding this application then I close the col portion of heing uh board members as mentioned uh please let us know where your thoughts are and um if you're in support or not of the application I'll start please do so I love the paper mill I think it's special as many people have mentioned tonight um I just renewed my season tickets but anyway um I do have a little bit of trouble with this application only and I think they could be remedied tonight if there are more specific definitions uh um outlined for the board specifically like the hours of operation written out for us and defines clearly for the board what is the operation of Paper Mill theater what is the operation of the Carriage House restaurant that also as we discussed previously like the limits of operation your mission statement what what is the paper intend to do um of the foreseeable future and the restaurants operations tied to that of the theater plus some special events that perhaps could be defined what did the various I heard a lot of comment about lighting when will the lights go on and off in various areas since you're asking for quite a significant front yard setback variance um I think that's important to people toally the lights um where would the buses go the schools the charter buses Etc where will they will will they stay I think that was left unanswered um and then it was important to me me I think the architect agreed to this but I'd like it um codified that uh the glass will not reflect onto the neighbor's property hang on one second I'm just writing some of this stuff down I can repeat it sorry happy to hear what my colleagues say I'll go next here so um you know I I as someone who grew up in town and third generation here I always looked at the the paper mill is an icon of of this community um I realize some people think the mall is an icon but this really is one true um and you know to have something like this in town uh you know all night I stare at the milour deli and people think that that is like the standard Bearer ofmer um but this really is and you know modernization sometimes can come with a little bit of a bitter pill and I understand that um well try to keep the essence of what this facility is all about at the same time we do need to upgrade we do need to modernize we do need to make it more ADA Compliant and all these type of things over time and uh make it safer make it more viable and I think that this is the type of thing that's necessary for our community um you know to have something that's sitting around for 40 50 years with no major Improvement is is a little outrageous for something that is as significant as it is um as mentioned by um by Regina you know part of the condition of approval assuming um Council and and the uh paper mill um would agree uh of course the adoption of purchase uh made by the township of lot 15 hours of operation and use um mission statement as as it was mentioned um I know lighting was at 12m but I am a little cautious putting hard numbers on that only because I want to make sure employees are out um that you know I don't want them to walk out to a dark lot so you know I just want there to be a little bit of flexibility there but to have certainly not have it run dust a dawn that's not acceptable uh also you know with this bus situation that was mentioned I think the best path for that would be to connect with traffic uh at Town Hall and see what can be done I don't know if this board has the the horsepower to sit and say move the buses here or there but think that a conversation needs to be had with traffic and the police department as to where they should go what they should do and certainly this idling has to stop as it is a violation Town ordinance uh if this is the case so with those things mentioned I would be uh in favor of of um you know proving this application so I I agree the paper bill is an icon of this town and and and I am you know overall supportive of this application I do have some similar concerns and maybe a different perspective and I'm not really sure what the answers but I'm going to POS it to my fellow members and and a question actually for jorney so the first one operations I I we have had many cases before us where of restrictions in an operation seems um maybe problematic to me and what I wonder is although we we could and should perhaps put some limitations is is it more appropriate given the the town is the landlord is it more appropriate as a as a lease Amendment with with the the entity versus the zoning board making these kinds of distinctions because I think the town can do that in police but that's a you know a question I guess for us um the second thing is for the attorney I have a question everyone I think even in the testimony we talk about the restaurant is an ancillary use but we're approving it as a primary use use and I think I understand why but I'm wondering is there some in us making that decision is there does it mean anything in terms of I don't know how this is viewed or or the the future what runs with it in the F or anything like that as Mr Keller was saying yeah we're dealing with an an ancillary use or principal use in one sense it was ancillary because it's only going to be used for the playhouse one the playhouse having an event but it's also being used outside of that to be safe they're calling it a own principle use separate distinct D1 yeah to keep it outside of the testimony about losing your designation as a nonprofit from your standpoint as a separate use we can put limitations on it as a board hours when it can operate when it can't to make it not so SE indistinct that it's going to turn into a nightclub question I I maybe I maybe that's to the question if if I UND let me play it back and make sure I got it would you still have to make those same kinds of restrictions or distinctions if it were an ancillary use versus now it becoming like what changes when it I think with your thought process if this was to spin off obviously you'd have to come back in front of zoning Port if it's by somehow this would spin off into a SE separate use that's why I think we should put the limitations on the use so who knows what kind of application is going to be in the future obviously they can't in order to subdivide it they'd have to go straight down the middle and they'd have to come back anyway to operate outside of what it's operating right now it's Township property so that be a least violation but again separate Instinct from losing your designation as a nonprofit We can limit it here so it doesn't spin off I mean theoretically it's not going to spin off same right I mean I don't I don't think it's gonna I hope it would spin off because the town would have to I guess approve that as well but it not from a least perspective from Le perspective and from board from the L's board perspective yes we'd have to approve even though it's getting its own separate and distinct D1 variants yeah you know parking issues there' be a lot there's a lot's a lot okay maybe that's enough down this road I just wanted to understand if we proved it if it were continued as an ancillary use would it we're calling it principle here to be safe make sure they have all the criteria necessary in the D1 variance it's being used that's the problem principally and ancillary so we're going to go with principal but it's not going to be able to spin off without coming back to sure so my my third point which was raised twice already is about buses um and parking and specifically bus parking and it's kind of a question for this group too like I would think that you know you're encouraging educational groups you're encouraging you're encouraging people to come and it's better for them to come in a bus but we're not not providing bus parking and should we be is should that be something that I don't know if that's required or not how does that work because I think it should be if you don't provide the parking for the bus then of course it's going to sit on the street right because it doesn't have a place to go so that's I don't know how you answer that question but it troubles me I think there's a couple components to that well I'd say theoretically you've got parking spots for seats you're bring in a bus with 50 people on you're bringing in X number of cars where the people so there should be parking for it if we want to designate X number of parking spots for buses that are now taking car parking spots if the applicant would agree to that I think the board we can have them designate parking spots for there or somewhere else but but somewhere right so the the other thing I was thinking with this bus issue once again I still would prefer the police and Traffic Unit um but you know to push them into the parking lots meaning that everyone's parked you still have open space so the buses go into the parking lots and just sit there not a at least get off the road yeah um but once again I would I would defer to uh traffic to make sure that that's not a violation of fire that you don't create unnecessary congestion in parking lots um I a solution yeah and like said I think I think it would have to be taken up the traffic department please that's all I well can we make it a condition that the applicant is required to consult with to consult with Police Department right the has to stop uh G your thoughts yeah I think everything's been said I think the Papermill is is critical to the town it's it's um and I think these changes need to be made I think that um uh a lot of the changes a lot of the variances that requested are relatively minor in nature um you know I think the the issues that my colleagues have raised um I share their concerns and I think we need to address through conditions but uh I I would be supportive of the application um overall I'm support of the application as well uh Pap economic driver from the town has been not three generations here but has been here for a while um I just really couldn't see the town without it tell the trth um uh for the issues that we discussing here about you know restaurant hours and things like that I would like to see some information on that as well okay so um part of conditions of approval obviously have the the adoption of the purchase the hours of operation and use to be supplied by the um uh paper mill along with mission statement I think that's important um the lighting um once again I know I know 12:00 p.m was was mentioned um but I would you know like I said I would to make sure everyone's out of the building safely the hours that were supplied by the um uh um by Mr Miller to be considered also as part of the moralization if that coincides unless it's edited by it's our document okay uh so we'll we'll use that um and also to contact police Traffic Unit regarding the parking of buses and um idling of of vehicles anything else refu pick up uh refu pickup to be adjusted uh as mentioned sometime 7 AM or thereabouts and consultation with the board's professionals about species of all consultation with with uh town arborus along with the environmental commission regarding PL species the reflection of the Wind the glass will not reflect on residents correct and subject to the board's determination is there a condition that when there's events in the main hall the restaurant can be open to support those events but when there's no yeah open separate separate independently from the theater unless there's a separate event on a separate night when there's nothing going on in the did I say that doent that to open the public P he second all those in favor go ahead okay the document outlines the various uses of the uh Carriage House it outlines the occupancy what we're doing for pre-show dining when there is a performance um the number of hours that we're in operation for that and that it states that everyone who is dining is going to a performance they're performance related events those are the murder mysteries and Cabaret performances when there is not anything going on in the main stage we won't have separate events going on in the carriage house at the same time as on the main stage and we've outlined the hours of operation for that the third use is other rentals um where we might do business meetings corporate meetings the odd wedding things like that but not a disco and not we're we're not looking to compete with any of the major things we've outlined the hours for those as well outdoors and indoors and they're all on this um piece of paper here okay then we we'll mark that Mark that5 I give you mine maybe not a since that's yeah public p p P1 that's right1 o1 for objector one the paper mill does that have a date on it I paper mill statement okay commission statement of the theater included in your paperwork there I can add that it's on our website I mean I I can send you that because if it comes under another director or ownership for some reason so I have one last question Rich actually um if the um assuming that the that this is is adopted like for purchase um would it change then the the zoning down there would that R six go away no it would have to be a separate um separate ordinance um to go before the planning board to Ure if they want to absorb it into yeah so it would be a multi step process starting with an ordinance from the recommendation from theology planner a an ordinance created by the C committee referral to the planning board back to the committee so it's a Multistate thank you any further thing while we're still open close the public portion um just one comment chairman yeah I think we're ready and and what I recommend is you know we can assuming the vote is favorable based upon the standards we draft the resolution we work in good faith but certainly Mike and I will come back that night and you know there may be more discussions we may have to do another draft if not every point is agreed upon you know we get that right this might be sort ofev that the uh and you're agreeable as your client is to what has been mentioned so far yes we're agre all we have to work out all the language but the general gist of things yeah and there's an argument that maybe some of it come in we'll see we have to work out some of those things but what I'm saying is I want to give you some comfort that whenever we're on for the resolution Mike and I will come back and we understand there may have to be 10 minutes of discussion exactly if we can't agree with the lawyers on every point and then that may have to right there could be discussion it's a little more complicated I also asked that with the conditions regarding the police regarding that type of thing that you make your best effort to reach out to them uh to get this buttoned up before we vote on the resolution so that we know exactly where we stand or where some of the stuff is try to resolve it all so we don't have to we could do the resolution in one night and not come back but you know we get it there's there's some Nuance here and and there's a balance very respectful that okay um in that case do I have a motion are we motioning I thought he's gonna come back with this no you're still gonna vote on this now and then the resolution motion to exactly second yeah you're no what we'll do is let's do you want we'll break it down on D because that's really what the essence is so do you want to do it that way or no really yes what's that do that way okay so for the G Varian that are uh on this case um do I have a motion for use variance a second second the use on all three for the restaurant dual use on the correct a second second okay yes yes Gary Ros yes yes yes um next we have the C variances on both Lots 13 14 and 15 for R minimum sidey yard uh minimum rear lock coverage Max Building height and on 15 we have Max front minimum side maximum lot and maximum building excuse me sh we want do site plan with that a site plan yeah okay here we only need a majority right correct corre we can uh we can lose a vote here yeah that's fine okay uh I'm unhappy chairman that you didn't mention that the second most important thing in the survey of the greatest things in milber is May office at 75 have to get over that but sorry uh so do I have a motion there make a motion to approve and second second yes yesos yes yes yes good luck with project thank you for your talk we appreciate thank you we're going take a five minute break and then we're going to jump into our next instead e e e e e e e e e e now looks at the clock and it's 10 o'cl okay um so there's not there's going to be some bad news coming everyone's way much like you've been sitting at the airport all night your plan take off and your plane gets cancelled that's what's happening good news you won't have to stay in a hotel tonight you can go home yeah we give you a meal voucher 15 bucks you go outside um so uh calendar 4,24 signature realy calendar 39 8924 uh Alf Merchant on4 241 Long Hill and calendar 3 9924 James and Dina Glenn at 117 Cyprus you will not be heard this evening we will move forward with Veterinary Emergency uh and that case we will not hear any new applicants after 10:30 okay so let's see when we can put uh these three uh applications back on the calendar we have a absolutely packed calendar heading through the fall okay so um we want to be courteous to everyone and get you heard okay we don't want to put you back on a date where we have six cases and we're not going to get to you so what's our next available e we could probably do all three at the same at one night I would thinka probably October October 21st um so what we will do is we will put everyone all three of these cases October 21st um how many do you have so far there with any we heard that night yeah okay take at least two hours yeah um so look so do you want to put um I mean I just want to get you know I want I don't want to bounce anyone again let's put it that way so um is it best then to move the next one signature Realty there I put signature on it's just the one you have several you have you have several on 241 Long Hill we only have one yeah you guys only have one you have one I mean look once a removal of condition I mean honestly we probably could do maybe at least one on the S that's soon I don't have anything before October 7 no I know that I know that what is so let's let's do signature on the 7th first signature I confirmed my experts available on 21st gome as well so we can take 21st you want to go 21st okay that's nice there we go now we're down to two um let's want to do want to do uh one Cyprus on the 7th and then we'll do 241 long on the 21st does that work with you guys yes thank you once again I apologize so with that being said um those applications we move to the corresponding dates uh no further notice will be uh necessary uh and it will be anything changes regarding that applications it'll be on on uh on the website and notice the town hall uh if you're here on those cases as um closers or speaking in favor those will be the dates that'll be heard at this point I expect them to be heard then so uh we you know we'll do our best to make sure that they get done that night I will move those cases to the top of the list unless there is a returning one already and uh out of consideration for the evening okay so with that I appreciate you stopping by and uh glad you got to watch Zoning Board in action thank you night good night so next up we will have calendar 39922 24 vetenary emergency Group LLC John how are you I'm doing well good evening chairman board members John what you scol on behalf of Veterinary Emergency Group LLC chairman we do realize we only have five board members we're going to see how quick how far we make it through anyway and then see where we end up but uh I am here tonight representing the entity with respect to their intended lease hold and change of use and occupancy and a portion of what's known as the Milburn shopping center 720 Mars Turnpike property is owned by MSS Milburn realy it is identified as block 1904 lot 20 it's located in your B2B Zone District property is currently developed with a two-story multi-tenant mixed use mixed use commercial building uh which has a mix of retail retail Service uh office and other commercial uses building is approximately 76,000 square feet in size uh last meaningful Improvement to this Center actually dates back to 1994 95 at which time the center was expanded uh to its current configuration uh with the current parking that's out there today which I believe is approximately 283 parking spaces uh the makeup of this building has changed over the years just in terms of the tenant mix uh particularly prior to and and in the wake of the covid pandemic you'll all remember Walter Balman Jewelers was in here uh YB Fitness which was a pretty active fitness facility uh as well as Harmon Cosmetics uh which which shut down and and vacated the center uh MSS has been working for years um as davidi can attest to it because I've represented this property owner I've actually been in on a number of applications although most of them have come before the planning board uh because they were specifically permitted uses most recent applications that came in uh were actually for the gold medal uh Gymnastics Academy which I I believe actually was before you for a sign variants they hired Mr skolnick for some reason but I won't hold that some just realize that uh as well as the the aquatat uh Swim Academy uh so we are here before you I'm actually going to refer to the entity as veg that's what we call it because it's a lot easier than saying Veterinary emergency group throughout uh but we are seeking site plan and variants relief in conjunction with this proposed change in use uh we are proposing to occupy approximately 50 5,300 square feet it's down on the endcap uh closest to Panera uh and it was part of the original Harmon cosmetic leasehold space we are not proposing any expansion or modifications to the site plan itself uh with one exception when we were at the DRC they asked us to put in a crosswalk which we'll address and show you uh in one location along that driveway and just to relocate what we are proposing as reserved spaces uh my client is a well-known well-respected Veterinary Hospital they've got 87 locations in 27 States uh closest facilities Union Clifton pamis Hoboken I know those just to name a few uh this is not your standard veterinary office uh this isn't a place where you're going to have uh customers uh scheduling regular appointments for checkups and shots and the like uh this is a 24hour uh 7-Day a week emergency and Urgent pet care hospital uh as you're going to see in here this evening uh it is a relatively low intensity use uh from the perspective of of number of of customers we call them customers and then there the pets are the patients uh that come in here uh it is a use that we believe is complimentary to the rest of the center we've always looked at that on the different changes in use and occupancy because our hours differ from uh from some of the others um reason we are before you tonight the zoning board uh is that the veterinary office use is not permitted in the zone district and what I learned through this application it's not actually the vet use is not a use that's permitted anywhere in Milburn uh uh it's just kind of a hole in the zoning ordinance I do know it's something that um your your zoning subcommittee has been looking at uh just in terms of it although oddly enough while Veterinary use is not permitted they do there is actually a parking standard for veterinary offices so uh you never know we're part we're partway there um right and the like but uh that's that's why we're here tonight so uh you know we do have we do have the D1 use variants uh we technically asked for a parking variance in conjunction with this because we are not proposing any new parking uh we've already in the past we've received variant relief in this regard uh the vet use actually uh is a lesser standard than what the retail standard would be for uh for for Harmon Cosmetics if we were to do that comparison because we base it on the number of exam rooms and the like uh we also have a variance for signage uh we'll speak to that tonight you got a two foot height limitation and veg has you know essentially their Hospital symbol which extends to three feet it's really kind of an endcap feature on the sign itself I have three Witnesses Jennifer hanin uh she's the director of real estate uh Jennifer is going to go over the operations she's gonna tell you something about about veg and the nature of the business and the operation number of doctors and employees and just general operations we have Jim de barbery he's project architect Jim's been on this uh on this site and on this project uh since its earlier earliest years as a shop Center I think he's done all the architecture at least I know at least in 94 995 actually Mr Keller's firm was involved in that too and we have rich as well to uh to address planning testimony with respect to the relief so unless anybody has any questions I know we got limited times so I'd like to call my first witness on down name Jennifer Hamlin hn l n my address is 44 South Broadway White Plains New York and Jennifer can you please uh provide the board just a bit of background uh what your involvement is here what your role is with the company like I am the senior director of real estate and development for Veterinary emergency group also known as veg I've been with the company for a little under six years I've taken the company from about three locations to now 87 um soon to be 90 by the end of this year um of our 90 locations I have personally been involved in about 80 of them and uh why to speak to speak to the business the nature of the operations and the like I'll just turn it over to you you can go for it sure so as our name entails Veterinary emergency group we are a nationwide group of emergency and urgent care hospitals for pets um we operate under a single Mission which is helping people and their pets when they need it most um we are the only Nationwide group of emergency only pet hospitals in the country country so all of our locations operate 24 hours a day 365 days a year providing people on their pets care when they need it whether that's during the day or after hours something that's very unique about the type of emergency care that we provide is that we are an open concept hospital so you can stay with your pet for every single piece of their treatment whether they're being triage they're having surgery they're staying overnight um we do things that are pretty atypical of an emergency facility we sit on the floor with your pet we see Exotics which in this case could be a bird or a rabbit um or a lizard or a snake um so it's a really customer focused way of proi providing Emergency Care um that we we haven't seen anywhere else the majority of our pets dogs cats 90% of our cases are dogs and cats the other 10% make up what we call Exotics Exotics in the emergency excuse me in the veterinary industry is anything that is not a cat or a dog so again again Pig a bunny a rabbit um any type of bird Etc and I'll ask only because of the DRC asked this question we're not treating uh farm animals and the like here we wouldn't be bringing in horses or or anything no no farm animals um just household pets and can you speak to um I'd like to focus in on a number of doctors number of employees that would be on site at any particular time sure so we typically have about 8 to 10 employees on staff at one time um that usually consists of two doctors and then we have two assistants two Veterinary technicians or what we call Veterinary nurses um and then two other additional uh roles one might be a receptionist or a customer care Advocate um but it's typically eight to 10 individuals that are on staff at any given time and we do operate 24 hours a day and it's typically on two um 12 hour shifts and Jennifer can we speak about volume of customers what your typical exper experiences uh what you would expect here and what you experience in your other facilities sure um we typically see about two to three clients or or customers an hour um our busiest hours tend to be um once work gets out so about 5:00 pm to let's call it 8:30 p.m. or 900 P pm at night uh and uh weekends um weekends are pretty busy for us um Sundays are our busiest day just because all the other vet vets in the community are closed um I didn't mention earlier we operate and we see ourselves as an extension of the general practices in the communities that we operate in so you have your general practitioner where you go for your spay your neuter your shots your typical my dog or cat needs to be seen once a year for a checkup um we operate as an extension of them so when they are closed they will refer um their patients to veg for emergency services and we we say we're 24 hours uh but can you what what happens generally you've indicated that the Busy time is say 5:00 P pm to 900 p.m during the week uh what kind of activity do you typically see from you know 9:00 until you know the following morning typically about 11:00 to about 8:00 a.m. um is is pretty slow um the only people really coming into an emergency veterinary facility during the dead of night are people with true emergencies so you're seeing maybe one or two cases if that an hour um there could be some cases not coming in at all throughout the night um it it's really just anyone having a life or death emergency with their pet and uh can we I'd like to talk a little bit uh deliveries what type of deliveries do you normally get just like any business it's the the typical deliveries Amazon FedEx um that are done during normal business hours and those deliveries generally through the front door uh through the front door or from from the side door if we have a side door that they can go through and um how do you handle medical waste so medical waste um we abide by whatever the medical waste code for that municipality or state is um some states have different codes um but we do have a facility that comes and picks up medical waste a few times a week or as needed um most of the medical waste that we're producing is medical Sharps so they're disposed of in a Sharps container and then they're um stored in the facility until they get picked up by that provider and you did you mentioned pets overnight I do want to confirm we are not proposing uh we don't kennel animals we don't provide uh just uh overnight overnight stays uh the pets that that would be there are are only pets that would be uh post surgery under observation uh for their emergency needs is that right that is correct so animals only stay on premises overnight if it's incidental to their Emergency Care um we don't provide any type of boarding or kenneling so you cannot call veg and say I'm going away for the weekend can my pet stay with you um so similar to a human Hospital you would only stay in the hospital overnight if you're sick if you are going on vacation You' go to a hotel we are not a hotel we are an emergency provider only um so real Quick's you mentioned something about the pet owner staying like to explain that to me so if you're so you say you're not a hotel but so not a hotel um so you can't you can't call up veg and say hey my pet's sick and I also need a place to say tonight can we come to veg but something that is very unique is that we are a customer focused um experienced provider so let's say you show up at veg at 3 o'clock and your dog has ingested a tennis ball and that is too big for us to scope out which is a Mach a tool that you could typically put into the stomach and scope out whatever's been swallowed a tennis ball might be too big we say hey your pet has to go to surgery they go into surgery at 3:30 now your pet has to stay overnight with us um you well we're not going to say hey like come bring your blowup mattress and sleep outside the cage you are more than welcome to stay on site because we are open 24 hours a day to stay with your pet we'll pull up a chair for you you can stay you can observe them as well um and you can do that for as many days or as many nights as you wish I will say most people tend to go home because they they can see that their pets in in good care um but we give everyone the opportunity to do that we'll go as far as hey if you don't want to stay or you can stay you can FaceTime with your pet overnight um so it it really is trying to connect people with the care that their pet is getting similar to if you took your child to a pediatrician or the emergency room theyd never say hey Mom and Dad we're bringing them to the back like we'll be back soon same thing with your pet got and um how about noise how about sound attenuation any concerns in that regard so we operate at 87 of these facilities across the country um we have never received a noise complaint in the 87 locations that we operate in and they are all retail-based locations we only take retail based um locations like we're talking about in this application um we do install noise um deafening batting panels that go on the ceiling or on the walls to absorb whatever noise might be happening and of course any uh walls that are put up in between us and another tenant get insulated candidly most of our pets coming into the facility are not making much noise because they tend to be very sick um pets after major surgery are not making any noise um nor are they really moving they're pretty much confined to a cage for the remainder of their stay no pet sales no adoptions that stuff right no no pet sales um we don't sell anything in the facility the only items you can purchase are actually go towards our um nonprofit so if you want to buy a t-shirt that goes towards the nonprofit you can do that but we don't sell any type of pet care supplies food um and we don't do any type of adoption so you cannot come to veg and adopt a pet pharmaceutical needs for pets so we are not a pharmacy we don't dispense pharmaceu CU Les you are only given um any type of prescription drugs incidental to your pet's um treatment at FEG so all of our controlled substances are stored in a cuex which is a 50-state compliant um DEA box that needs a code and a fingerprint to get into so only the really the doctor on staff who is assigned to that cuex can operate that machine but if you send you send a a patient home with medication if there's any renals on that that's not done for you that would have to go to a pharmacy correct so that would typically go to their general practice so because we see ourselves an as an extension of the general practices your pet has that surgery with veg a week later maybe the wound's infected they need antibiotics they can come back to veg and we can see them again and open a new case and prescribe antibiotics but if if not if they don't want to come back they would have to go to their general practice who would then prescribe those antibiotics do animals ever go on the lamb seriously if you have a snake or something or they no fars that happened or not I'm sorry can you explain the question have they have they ever have any animals ever escaped from run out you know so with any vinary facility you run the risk of an animal escaping um we do have security protocols in place so all of our facilities are designed with a double vestibule entrance so the first vestibule door is typically kept locked so you have to be buzzed in through that door and then the second one is also kept locked so God forbid an animal does escape within the facility they'd have to somehow open two doors to get outside um so we haven't had any instances where an animal has run out of a facility um of course just like any Veterinary provider you always run the risk whether it's veg or it's Banfield or it's someone walking their pet into petmart that your dog could get loose um that's the you know an unfortunate side effect but um we do have those protocols in place and when our um providers are walking pets like two or from the car they have a double leash so that is another safety protocol that we put in place do you walk the pets like after surgery to make sure that they are going to the bathroom like in this area is there a grass strip here I don't even know there like a grassy area you can walk dogs after surgery to make sure they yeah we'll we'll show that on the site plan it's actually on one of the islands so and and correct I'm wrong on this Jennifer I mean we well obviously cats I assume we've got litter boxes we dispose of of of their waste uh just through regular means um but if there is a need to take a pet out after after a surgery once it's able to uh they'd be able to walk out to we just have a grass area on one of the islands out in front oh yeah I don't even know what's on the side of here yeah know that's Woods or yeah we've got our neighbors off to to the side we've got that we've got that acute care facility and then we do have a fence and a line we're just trying to keep everything internal to the sfe but the answer is yes if a pet is healthy enough to be walked outside um we will take them with a double lease to whatever landscape Island um or grassy areas available to us at whatever facility we're discussing you have any like Refrigeration for pets that expired orth something's that so we do have a a freezer that is kept in the back of house so out of sight and Out Of Reach from any of our customers so if an animal is unfortunately euthanized or passes away naturally um in our facility and they do not go home with the customer they are stored until our cremator service is able to come pick them up we do not do any Crematory services in our facility it's a third party that will come pick up that animal and then deliver their remains back to our facility at a later date um and that pickup is as needed so there might a week where we have one euthanasia there could be a week where we have four or five so whenever the freezer is full is is when it gets picked up does the Department of Health in any of New Jersey New Jersey do they have any regulations on that not to my knowledge no we operate four locations in the state of New Jersey um and there are no regulations as it relates to that that's interesting so if you're doing surgery um and there's you know anesthetic anesthesia products does B of Heth not have any any medic waste serous it's inter it's answering question you would think that it would be to my knowledge there's no um there's nothing that has to do with the storage of deceased animals um I personally can't speak to what the um legal Protocols are for um for for that um you'd be actually shocked at how little regulations there tend to be around Veterinary Care it doesn't tend to be as bulky as human um Medical Care um but we do follow whatever the protocols are for that state we do follow them storage of like is they're flammable some of those anesthetic so we do have we do have oxygen on site um and that usually gets covered um during our building permit application because we do have a oxygen generator on site so the way it's run um through um through the ceiling actually is usually covered with the building permit I apologize I I did not design the hospital so I can't speak to the legal generator on site that's actually a good question we have an oxygen generator on site typically so um instead of storing containers of oxygen um it's a generator that can actually just continually make its own oxygen condenser but do you have like a generator and place power um we do not keep a generator on site but most of our our facilities do have a external generator switch so God forbid there's a hurricane we can call a hurricane or a big storm we can call a third-party service that will come and park a generator in usually a spot or two in the parking lot and hook edge up and then we can stay open throughout the corre and we do have protocols in place God forbids like power does go out mid surgery um and all of our um hospitals are briefed on what to do in case of a natural disaster um do any dog training no dog training um no additional Services other than Veterinary Services X-ray on site we do have an x-ray on site yes so you have to build to compliance room and for okaying again your doctors they employees or do you bring in outside doctors that can run the around in practice no all of our doctors are vge employees where get your place from the the best question we always get asked um so most of our doctors are either hired from other emergency facilities around the country so whether that's from New Jersey or other facilities um in nearby States and they relocate to whatever veg we're opening um something very interesting about veg is we have a program called our called our new ER doctor program where we will take doctors directly out of that school we'll put them through a six-month intensive train them to be a veg ER doctor and then we will place them around the country in our veg facilities questions specialty services like dentist or no Specialty Services um just emergency and Urgent Care um if your pet requires some type of specialty service so God forbid they come in and they're seizing and we see a a mass on the X-ray in their brain we will refer you to a neurologist um you can choose to go to that one you can go somewhere else um but we don't provide any type of specialty services on site John yeah this time I'd like to call Jim to barar thank you I do James the barbery that's d b a r b i e r i Mr D Bar de Barber can you please provide the board with a brief summary of your educational and professional background and licenses you hope sure I'm a senior uh principal of barbery Architects 97 Chestnut Street Rutherford New Jersey I'm have a bachelor's architect degree um I'm I was licensed in New Jersey in 1980 uh I have 12 other licenses in other states including the surrounding states of uh New York uh Pennsylvania Delaware Connecticut you've been qualified to uh uh as a as an expert in architecture uh before boards is that correct yes including uh the Milburn planning board with respect to this particular board yeah I've been in this room about a half dozen times but I don't remember being in front of the sing board and it's a good standing in state New Jersey yes it is okay thank you chairman Mr debarber you're familiar with this site you're familiar you prepared the plans here you just provide a very brief overview point out where the uh the location is and just touch briefly on the uh floor plan and the S everybody left I can bring this little closer is that okay okay this is uh the drawing we sub subed ST1 it's our site plan um I have the site plan up up uh on the upper right here um Mars Turnpike uh runs uh left to right at the bottom of the sheet um here is the location of the the veg uh veterinary office um the rear of that Center is currently um vacant and unoccupied pleas hold space approximately 5300 Square F feet correct it is uh and can you touch on the parking requirement we have four exam rooms is that correct yes the parking requirement is six spaces per exam room or doctor um I think only whichever is greater whichever is greater only two doctors are here so there are four exam rooms that's 24 spaces as comparison um Harmon was a retail store and that was uh when you divide that by one for 200 that would require uh 26 bases in this with uh six bases um and four exam rooms we only have 24 so we're two less with this than in a retail and J our primary entrance is through the uh the front door correct yes yes through the front door um if you're familiar with the center um Panara to are west but it's through the front door um right in this area and there is an existing side entrance that is to remain we're not the yeah it's it's mainly for our second means of regress to meet code quick that 3,400 squ feet just behind it was that part of Harmons or was that never part that was part of Harmon it was okay so this is just being okay got so this is being subdivided all right so why don't we go to the floor plan Jim and you can put that up just one quick thing I'm just gonna go one quick thing um just as far as zoning we comply with everything except we have two non-conforming uh requirements that are existing um our rear lot should be 50 feet and this Center is oh that's been here for it's really only 39 feet and the lot coverage is uh where the zoning ordinance is 85% we're at 92% but they're existing they've been that way for many many years I think technically as well we've got an existing non-conformity for front yard parking The Zone doesn't allow front yard parking but it has correct its entire duration correct yes thank you um the spaces that are dedicated uh for the veg facility they're over here on the East um side um up front is I think it's an urgent care facility there residential back behind this so it's right along that line they're going to be signed they're signed a short-term parking they have the veg logo on there and they're decaled and that's actually those those spaces are actually in that location as recommended by the DRC is that correct and the DRC also uh requested we had that crosswalk paint painted crosswalk yes we had the yellow painted crosswalk that leads directly from the parking to the front sidewalk that leads you to the entrance okay um this is uh drawing st2 this is our floor plan over on the left side of our sheet we've had testimony on on the rooms in this but just very briefly the entrance is over to the left side of this space with the vestibule that Jennifer spoke about um we have four exam rooms um we have the X-ray surgery um there's a break room of course there's a laundry uh and storage area and uh a lab toilets also just and can you speak to the signage yes um the front signage um would say Veterinary emergency group uh the letters on that are twoot high but we're requesting a variance for this 3ot uh uh three foot high logo which is a corporate logo that identifies this facility we are okay on the square footage of that sign even with the logo it's just the the height of that logo is is what we have variance request for and we're also proposing a uh an insert uh that is compliant into the freestanding oils correct yes and um there's an error on this and it was brought up in in Graham's report um although he did reference what we have here U this sign here and it's shown on the um pylon sign which is only 8 feet wide it's called out incorrectly is 107 square feet it's actually 10.7 square feet so it's a major major difference so that that should be corrected on on that um and it is a double-sided sign so even with both sides we're only at 21 Square ft I think the ordinance that Graham reference had said the limit was 50 square feet so we're compliant on that we have some uh storefront Graphics they are located around the front entrance door to help uh the customer into that area and it's it's a it's just again logos of of the veg facility one on the door and one adjacent to it on the on the glass storefront and I think that's it thank you how fast you be quick yes Richard Keller planner uh and then here for the applicant heing tonight as a planner I've been licensed uh since 1990 as a planner and engineer I have a bachelor in science and civil engineering Masters in architecture of the contion urban planning I've appeared before this board as recently as 20 minutes ago and approximately uh 100 board sou state New Jersey and I didn't check my email but my Bo my license are still good effect um I can go um so essentially um it is we should compare notes because he stole my thunder it is a it is a paradox um that uh U medical uses are permitted in this Zone but not Veterinary per uh uses and it's also a further Paradox that um pet grooming and Pet Care is permitted in the zone but not Veterinary Services um and as was indicated it's actually not permitted in any Zone within within the community but I understand that is been a focus I think um like many people I think at one point people either thought members of the township committee probably thought that medical was either um dog was Medical or that it was um personal services because there you own the pat um however loophole um through exclusions not not a prevented use just quickly I'm going to introduce A1 and I'll date it as today 819 2024 um and I wanted to show the relationship of the space um to the entrance and then a little bit about the side so run out the photos very quickly uh this is the Milburn shopping center uh 7277 Morris Avenue looking uh North from um morris6 Turnpike you can see the the easterly entrance and there's that Monument sign which actually each face has about 50 square feet and as indicated we're proposing to take about 10.7 so that is a conforming uh application into a non-conforming sign the sign's actually a little too close to the street but it's an existing nonconforming condition uh you can see the back of the site if you know it the Panera Bread is is to the left of the of the pediment and the old Harmon where the veg is going is to the right um we look at photograph number two this is looking as you come into that driveway um I would point out and in it it's actually hard to see but um the Panera letters are about 24 in and they certainly don't appear to be very large um in the background uh is the sign from the uh Ninja um that sign was approved again because it's 200t back from the street that sign the lettering is 4 43 in and the logo is actually 63 in and it disappears into the background um so I certainly think um this the here I put Veterinary emergency group these letters uh proportionally that would be 24 inches that's the relationship of veg being 36 inches so you can see that um it's really going to disappear into this in fact I would almost think they should double the size of veg to make it more easily user identifi as they come in but um but we do need a variance for that 36 in um you know what's different than ninjas or any place else is people are coming in here sometimes late at night they may see the small sign the 10.7 sare foot sign they may have never been here before not many people uh go to Emergency Services very often they come in they've got a mall that's 200 feet back they need to know where to go they make a left and they get halfway through the site they see where they want to go they're going to make a quick maneuver over to the right um you get potential conflicts if during the day it's really important probably more the most important place within this uh Milburn mall to have read um visible wayfinding with your signage is probably this space and I think that to my think it's actually a little small but um the red logo uh against the gray background will certainly make it pop um but if you look at the other photographs whether uh was anywhere else um in in the site you can see the um Panera Bread disappears into the background the same way this is going to it's really going to pop on that facade is that 36 inch veg logo that says there's an emergency facility here I also wanted to show um as you come in the right driveway uh here's the landscaped area where where the uh the pest can be double leashed and walked um that driveway does consider cons continue past what would be the uh Reserve spots and then um if we continue down there what I want to show is standing at with my back at the faad I took a look at the buffering to the residential neighborhood which actually fronts on Canterbury Lane there's a house tucked in there at 72 Canterbury Lane you can see a tall Stockade Fence existing Landscaping so it is well screened from the surrounding neighborhood um we do need a D1 variants because of that Paradox that we're not permitted in the zone and again this follows the medich standard and that is uh sight suitability and certainly we think this is uh if it's suitable for Pet Care and it's suitable for human medical we think it's certainly suitable for um medical uh Services Emergency Medical Services for pets um and again keep in mind demonstrating that uh um um site partic particular site suitability doesn't require uh proof that there's no other potential location for this use within the community or that something couldn't go there um but we all know in a in a Vanishing time where retail is certainly hurting um uh medical services are on the rise and this is a fac this is a type of service that that is underutilized uh a couple years on the way go on the way home from a planning board a dog came from a behind a van I hit the dog I had to take that dog to West Caldwell at almost one o'clock in the morning to get Emergency Services it was harrowing if I could have been here I should joked up a little bit it could have been here it would have been the dog would have died anyways but um it's still you know it seems crazy that we're underutilized in this community a community has so many pets and so many cats and dogs that were underutilized in terms of Emergency Medical Services so there's certainly a need for the proposed use so the suit is particularly suited for the site and there's a need for it within the community um as was indicated um we don't need a uh what is also particularly suitable about this site is that all of most of the rest are retail or retail or their um uh athletic Services they all operate off hours to the principal hours that that um these guys see their most patience so um evenings between 5: and 8:00 p.m. and Sundays is when the rest of this mall is underutilized so certainly our utilization uh the intensity of our using Dub's tail very dubils very well with this site so we think it is particularly suited to the proposed use uh we certainly also Advance other purposes of the land use act at 4055 D2 um Public Safety and general welfare and public health for our animals um the uh we're providing for a variety of commercial needs within the community which is sorely underutilized at this point um and we're contributing to the well-being of person's neighborhoods and communities um sometimes I really worry about our commercial zones because sometimes it's a tale two cities about uh Springfield and Summit thriving and we've been having trouble filling so I think it's important when we can get a really good tenant uh with a unique use that is supportive of the and and helps the uh the other uses within the and doesn't cut against any the other uses from the strip um it uh it makes for a better Community because it reinforces our commercial strip um there is uh as indicated the only C variance we need we don't need a variance for the uh for the sign in front um but we do need that variance uh we're still complying with the area but to go from 24 to 36 inches in height we need a variance I think it should be more like 64 inches because you can see um the the other 63 in sign kind of disappears but I think the red will make it pop um positive criteria we think it's a C2 uh flexible variance where it's is a better alternative than a conforming because it does provide for critical wayfinding at a very distressing time for a pet owner um and certainly uh we think the negative criteria is met there's no substantial detriment to the public good uh and there's no intent to the uh no impairment to the master plan um again this uh only only uh supports our community um as a uh as a small suburb of the highest quality to have these kind of support services um what also particularly suitable about this is it's on a major collector Road right near Route 78 right near Route 24 124 It's Quickly accessed from sh Hills quickly access out of Maplewood as well as the surrounding community so I think that um it meets the medich standard um the enhanced pent appro is that we must reconcile the Omission um that's one I I got to say I think it was really just missed and it was assumed that it was somehow picked up under General Medical or it was picked up under um Retail Services um but apparently there has been some discuss that this is an area where the zoning committee is looking at finding appropriate places where um uh pet emergency services can go and we certainly think if it's good enough for medical and good enough for Pet Care it would be appropriate here uh we think it's a great use we hope that you can welcome these uh this great use to our town and Mr K I did I I guess out of an abundance of caution I did notice for a parking variance although we're not changing that I don't believe uh topolog the planner actually called that as out as a variance either but can you just speak to that briefly yeah the the the mall is uh there are technically not enough spaces within the uh in the mall facility to support of the variety of uses and so um let me see I I think I've got the number 441 required 283 existing and proposed correct 4 y That's exactly exctly correct and that was previously considered and approved by the plan board as well on the prior every application that's gone before them we did the uh Educational Services in the center we had done up in air before so it's been considered every time this if you've driven down if you've gone to the bagel shop or you've done any uses this lot is empty in fact it serves as overflow parking for the bagel shop um if you go most of the times more than 50% of that parking is vacant and Mr ker I'm going to ask you this because I forgot to ask our engineer to confirm but we did receive some reports uh the police department did not have any comments uh we did receive a number of comments in an August 2nd report uh from uh from the chief and we're going to comply with all those the usual proor of KN Box Etc yet engineering had no comments correct the DRC we addressed their comments with the relocation of those parking spaces and the crosswalks yep and I don't think there were any other I don't think there were any other comments apy had no other uh outstanding requests thank you any questions for Mr uh do you have a concern about security since you're open 247 night um no it's actually still you it's a still well a fairly well-traveled Road within the community I think it's probably the best location for it and probably the safest and they do have a double security entry system so um it not only keeps dogs in but it keeps other people out after C was 24 hours right what's that W was 24 hours and is there another veterinarian um on the other side I think it's in Summit there are a number of of uh veterinarians some of which call themselves dog and cat hospitals but they don't quite quite the same Services there are um places one milb yeah there there are there are a lot of other places within the community that are Veterinary or other shades of Veterinary but not the same veterinarian but he's not in 24 hours Hospital they're not 24 hours it may have been it may have been just a pre-existing non-conforming they've been there forever so yeah to say I'm coming show up yes so we don't work on appointment um but about 98% of the the people com to our facility will call ahead um so that we can advise them like yes you're having an emergency you should come in to our facility if it doesn't seem like an emergency we can save you the trip in and say hey wait till morning you can go to your regular vet but most of the people coming to our facility will call in ahead so that our team is ready for them yeah police generally give out the number of the closest that happened with me police gave me the look the closest local emergency facility for an animal and then I called them directly and they said we'll be waiting that's generally the St any other questions for any of the testimony we've heard anything for uh chairman we don't have anything further uh if the board has any other general questions i s will give the same comments that Mr skck did I do know we have five board members tonight uh if anybody has any concerns we'd like to know that before we decide to go to a vote would be acceptable uh I will off you the same courtesy we will all uh you give our opinion and you'll be able to uh smell the food before you taste it okay uh anyone else in the crowd here tonight have any other comments regarding this I'm assuming you're all together we kind of like it by the way we have General Council and S selection okay I wasn't sure but I just want to make sure uh so let the record reflect there is uh no one in the audience other than the applicants uh regarding this application so I will close the public portion uh with question uh so board members your thoughts so as someone who's been to Red Bank and other hospitals in the middle of the night with my sick dog um I think this is definitely a need you have to go pretty far for Veterinary Care in the middle of the night and my only concern is is and this is just being picky is that I would encourage you to get a generator because we lose power here in Short Hills it's like insane like like fairly frequently I have a generator in my house because we just got tired of losing all the food in the freezer so um I would encourage to look into getting a generator but I certainly can't compel you to do that I would just say with lives at stake valuable lives valuable lives at stake um you've got a lot of reasons to keep the power on not just the O but I would approve this thank you I'd be supportive as well I think it's a it's a a use that is um important and uh and I think uh the site is appropriate for that use and um I would disa I as well for all the uh the reasons mentioned I think it' be a great addition to the township and uh not a you know particularly difficult use either so I think we would work well with that that facility I am in support of this application same okay so uh I'm assuming we'll move forward with vote Yes much we'll break it down into two components of course one being the D variance the others the the existing c's for the most part not being exacerbated uh so in the first vote would be for the D variant which is the business use uh do I have a motion uh regarding that make a motion to approve a second yes yes yes yes yes next we'll have the mix of C variances minimum rear yard setback Max slot coverage required parking spaces in front yard parking all currently uh non conforming not changing either uh do I have a motion for those for motion to approve a second second yes yes yes yes good luck with the project oh it was with the okay thank you very much thanks a lot for hanging in with us oh sign was sign was the [Music] yeah you very much yeah have a good rest this summer anyone that com any have any further comments to CR there's no one else here so have second all in favor I enjoy all these