e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e everyone's attention please for those who are standing we do have an overflow room downstairs if you wish to go to so you don't have to stand all night um we're going to get started now so if everyone we have your cooperation tonight please stand and salute the flag pled Alle toag the United States of America and the for stand nais announcement of the Sunshine Law in accordance with the open public meeting act it is hereby announced and shall be entered into the minutes of this meeting that adequate notice of this meeting has been provided by the following hosted on the bulletin board of the office of the Township Clerk posted on the bulletin boards within the municipal complex printed in the home News Tribune and cramberry press on December 29th 2023 posted on the Monroe Township website and sent to those individuals who have requested personal notice Madam Secretary roll call please miss Carrie Mr Lupo here Mr Masters here Mr busman here M katori Mr tany here Mr jaffy here Mr Cole here Mr Jadis here chairman LF here thank you okay okay board members we have our minutes from our previous meeting do I have a motion to approve so move second second all in favor all in favor iions any extensions Jeffy and call the two individuals who couldn't just mark them as OB okay first applicant ba-52 42-23 please come forward yeah and but just before we get started we have a just for sake of the uh the public that's here I I know there was a prior application similar to this for the same property that application was withdrawn uh I think sometime last year so this is a new application it's going to start from the beginning um they're going to proi all of their proofs and there will be an opportunity for public comment um when they're finished so just so everybody understands the logistics of how it'll proceed okay good evening Mr chairman members of the board Jason second Council goe okay just for the record um honorable jaffy and Mr Cole be full voting members this evening thank you than you and for those in the public once we get started I would wish or ask that everyone keep their comments down so we can get through the application everyone will have the opportunity and be afforded the opportunity to speak when we get to the public portion thank you okay good evening Mr chairman members of the board members of the public Jason suel attorney for the applicant um this is an application for Block 27.0 uh block 27.0 2 blot 27.0 one the applicant is conc Concordia mzl LLC so there's several components to this application that I'll try to summarize briefly so we can get into the actual testimony so you have the existing shopping center that's currently located at the property and what we plan to do is the following one site plan application for improvements on the property and there's two components to that there is improvements to the overall shopping center and and there's improvements by way of constructing at the proposed McDonald's of approximately 4,400 Square F feet or 44 or 4500 square feet on the property in addition to that we also have a subdivision component of the project the subdivision component is really what what they call a financial subdivision or what's called a financial subdivision where there really will be no impact from a l use perspective by drawing the lines but there will be lot lot lines effectively drawn if the app application is approved to subdivide the proposed McDonald's area on the property from the rest of the shopping center so there's two components of the project the site plan component and the subdivision component we also do have a use variance associated with the application because the fast food with drive-thru the McDonald's is not a permitted use in the zone in which the property is located so let me just break down the site plan aspect of this application as well as was the subdivision aspect of this application so before getting into the McDonald's the goal of this project the goal of the applicant which owns the shopping center is to upgrade many aspects of the center from their current conditions so let's let's talk about them so one the first that I notice that I feel is critical is that there will be a reduction and impervious coverage of approximately 4,537 Square fet so that'll be better from a aesthetic perspective which means there'll be more green space on the property there will also be an improvement with respect to storm water management as a result of of doing that and that prop and that proposal includes many new shade trees and Evergreens and other plantings on the property we also plan on improving um onsite circulation and traffic patterns on site so that includes connectivity as to where the subdivision component going to work occur where the Stop and Shop is currently located the entrance off primeville road and how one can access the site by making a movement um that is going to be significantly improved as a result of the application site lighting as well will also be significantly improved as a result of the application and that's as to the the overall Center there will also be additional parking um added in certain areas of the of the shopping center as well as electri vehicle charging stations added as well so there's many improvements to the overall site in addition to the proposed McDonald's so with respect to the proposed McDonald's the proposed McDonald's will be located close to primeville Road um and we'll be a pad site within the shopping center as I indicated earlier it'll be approximately 4,456 um square feet with drive-thru it'll have the dual drive-thru which means that there's two ordering points to improve efficiency onsite many of the McDonald's that you see today or most now that you see today have this efficient drive-through aspect to them so that will be um a part of this application we'll also go through and we'll have at some point an operational witness testify in terms of the hours of operation the number of employees the number of deliveries I'll let the applicants um operational W Witness go through that at that time but just to preview this for the board so that when you're listening to the Civil testimony and the traffic testimony the board and the public has it um in their minds so there'll be two deliveries per week to the um to the McDonald's the hours of operation proposed are 7 days a week 5:30 a.m. to midnight there are 5 to 10 employees per shift so 10 being the Max in a peak shift five being the minimum in an off peak shift but in total the McDonald's will employ 40 individuals between full-time and part-time but the most you'll see there at any given one moment is 10 in the peak shift in terms of trash and recycling that occurs um twice per week um as well and the the applicant also will be conducting the deliveries um again I just wanted the board to have have this in their minds and the public to have this in their minds when the McDonald's is closed so there won't be any interaction between customer and deliveries occurring um at the site so those are that's a summary of the application or a preview of the app of the application we've worked diligently with your Township professionals to best address a lot of the comments that they've had in the review letters that we've received um during the application um process I will say that there are there are bulk variances and design waivers associated with the project most of them are preexisting conditions that are already on the property some of which are actually being improved as a result of this application and some of them are also a result of drawing what I'll call an imaginary or financial lot line Financial subdivision lot line through the property and the reason I say that is because there will be no visual or perceivable impact by these variances but because we are asking for the subdivision we do need to put on the testimony for them and the proofs but if you see them in the notice you see them in the application many of those are result of the of the proposed um subdivision so Mr chairman I have two witnesses that I plan on calling um this evening um our civil engineer Kyle McKenna with bowler engineering and our traffic engineer Paul going um with Atlantic traffic we submitted our David of service and publication to the board so you should have that that should be um in good order so with your permission Mr chairman if you're ready I'm I'd be happy to call our first witness which will be our civil engineer please proceed okay thank you so the first witness I'd like to call is Kyle McKenna so do you want me to use that microphone and I pass this sit right there unless he's going to get up think he's going to go to the board so then then we're going to grab that wireless cuz he needs to be on recording want to grab the wireless is that long enough qu yeah I can then we're good just so everyone in the public when we do take a quick break you will have the opportunity to see any any display that's put up here that we'll be looking at we're all looking at it together for the first time San you could raise your right hand for me to you SAR the testimony going to provide us the truth all truth and nothing but the truth I do if you could state your name spell your last name and give us your address for the record please Kyle McKenna m ckna bowler engineering business address is 10,000 midlantic Drive in Mount Laurel New Jersey okay Kyle if you could give the board the benefit of your educational background licenses held and whether they're current in a good standing and experience testifying before zoning boards of adjustment and planning boards throughout the state of New Jersey certainly I have a bachelor's of Science degree in civil engineering from Ruckers University I am a licensed professional engineer in the state of New Jersey my license is current and in good standing um I've been uh working in civil engineering Land Development uh for over 12 years with bowler engineering and I provided testimony uh professionally and been accepted in front of several uh planning and zoning boards throughout the state of New Jersey Council will accept his credentials as a professional thank you Mr chairman okay so what I'd like to start with um Kyle is let's go over the existing conditions on the property especially those that are relevant to your um site design so let's mark we'll mark your first exhibit Council we'll do we'll do that if we can mark that A1 yep and if he could just describe what that is sure if we could also add today's date on it today is the 26th again everyone will have a chance to see it is that a good position where we have it Mr chairman is that okay it's fine right now if any board members have any questions you know we'll get to it at that time and during a quick break the public will be able to see it as well of course all right so Kyle let's identify this for the record and we'll put uh today's date on A1 sure so this is uh sheet titled aerial exhibit it is dated March 26 2024 it depicts the subject site um it is an aerial background of existing conditions for reference North is to the right hand side of the page with a primeville road to the bottom of the page so I'll start my testimony by just providing a brief overview of the existing conditions on site and the surrounding areas the uh subject site is outlined in the uh yellow line outbound the site uh uh the area of the site is approximately 14.4 Acres um and the proposed subdivision lot that was referenced uh is delineated by the red- line um just to the north of Center um along the bottom of the page the site is um bound to the north by Prospect Plains Road to the east by primeville Road and to the South and West by existing residential uh properties the site is known as Concordia shopping center and the existing use is a mix of retail there are restaurants um office medical office uh Banks uh UPS stores and um it's anchored by the Stop and Shop grocery store the site is located in the uh PRC District however um it is being evaluated um via the neighborhood commercial District standards um we do have a planner that will be testifying later uh with respect to planning um but that is the way that the the um project is being evaluated for purposes of proposed improvements um access to the site so there are several access points along the um Frontage of the property I'll start up in the northwest corner of the site along Prospect Plains Road right at the North uh I'm sorry Northwestern corner of the site along the Northwestern corner of the site there is a full movement access Drive uh it provides access to the rear of the site there's a Ring Road that circulates the rear of the site this access point is primarily used by uh delivery of vehicles uh refuse collection vehicles and employees for parking at the rear of the retail uh buildings moving a little bit to the east there's another full movement access drive along Prospect Plains Road this is also a full movement uh Drive uh it also consists a right in and and left out designated egress moving further to the east I would like to note that there's the signalized intersection of prospect prospect Plains Road and primeville Road along primeville Road approximately 350 ft to the south of the signalized intersection is another full movement access Drive which provides access to an interior uh circulation road that leads to a circulation road that runs parallel to the front of the side along the strip retail and grocery store moving further south of lawn Prospect Plains Road is another uh egress and Ingress uh fold movement also has a designated right out and left out um egress that um driveway also provides access to that internal circulation road that runs along the front of the stores and a grocery store that I previously referenced there is uh access point to the rear Ring Road uh connecting uh at the very south uh east corner of the shopping center which uh Loops over to the uh access point I referenced on Prospect Plains Road so that provides full access on the rear of the property a nice ring road again primarily utilized for deliveries refug collection and employee parking are any new access points proposed just so the board has that in their mind uh no I'm just describing lay of the land existing conditions the final is uh near the south east corner of the site there's an existing BP gas station that has two uh full movement driveways as well which are not going to be um altered you want to describe the topograph iCal features of the property sure so as you um Traverse the site it generally has a a flat mellow gray to it no significant grade changes um across the site there are two areas of the site I would like to identify though that do have a notable uh change in grade the first being along the rear of the site again along that western and southern uh property line uh along the Ring Road that I previously mentioned so there is a uh grade change between the adjacent residential property properties and the uh shopping center so the shopping center is sort of depressed into um uh a hilside there along the residence so it sits approximately 4 to 10 ft below the adjacent Residential Properties which helps provide a little bit of a buffer um between the residents and the uh rear of the shopping center there's also a solid fence and uh some existing vegetation there comprised of deciduous and evergreen trees that are existing um the majority of those trees are located on the adjacent property though just for just for the record the second area I'd like to highlight uh with respect to tography is near the uh signalized intersection at the northeastern corner of the site so this is an area where there is also gr change down to the site from the intersection uh this is an important uh note I just wanted to bring up because it makes access to the site from uh for pedestrians quite difficult because the site is uh at a gr change of about four to six feet depending on where you are uh one other note I just wanted to highlight again uh the appin attorney already identified this but there is um an existing non-conformity or uh for impervious surface so um just wanted to make reference to that the required is 60 uh or sorry the permitted is 60% whereas 88 uh approximate 88% is existing there's no questions on existing uh I'm going to go ahead and move on to propose and introduce my next exhibit Kyle just one thing before you move on to that um there was a question in the planner's letter I think you could just hit it off now what percentage of the PRC Zone does the site comprise of I just I think uh Miss apy wanted that on the record just to say that we we took care of that yeah absolutely so we did review this the percentage of the subject site the 14.4 acres is less than .1% um plus or minus okay so it is certainly less than that 5% great thanks okay so let's now we can go into the proposed so I'm actually going to introduce as A2 I'm going to bring up another aial I think it's helpful to have a similar scale existing vers propos that we can use as a reference point throughout the testimony so I actually have a more zoomed in aial I just wanted to introduce and I'll mark that A2 and then I will introduce the proposed improvements as A3 right so we'll call A2 um zoomed in aerial of the of the subject site it's actually aial exhibit uh sheet two okay also dated uh with today's date March 26 2024 all right and both prepared by Bow engineering correct correct under your supervision correct okay okay I've marked exhibit A3 this sheet is titled it's um it's a colorized version of the site plan overall site plan sheet c301 it's very similar to the sheet that was submitted with the application it's just been colorized and then there's an aerial in the background to help enhance imagry reference again for both A2 and A3 North is to the right hand side of the page with Prospect PL I'm sorry primeville Road along the bottom of the page so I'm going to start my testimony by describing proposed lot uh a the proposed subdivision um on A2 it's the area delineated in red uh and then I'm going to go ahead and describe the proposed McDonald's uh you know restaurant with drive-thru um and the other improvements proposed on lot a and then I'll uh the second part of my testimony will be describing the other improvements throughout the site for lot 2701 so lot uh proposed lot a is uh just over 40,000 square ft in area which does comply with a minimum 40,000 s foot requirement it's uh 4,913 Square ft as previously indicated it is it is a financial um subdivision line so we are requesting uh two variances associated with the shape of the lot the first would be for lot Frontage which is required to be a minimum of 200t the second would be for lot width which is also required to be a minimum of 200 ft so for Frontage the proposed Frontage is 166.000 ft and the lot width proposes 1755 ft the wat the lot does get a little bit wider as it goes to the to the West okay but again those would be imperceptible from somebody's Viewpoint correct you wouldn't even know that that existed correct I would agree there there's really no impact um resulting from those those two variances that that we're aware of and we did try to use um a practical approach in laying out this lot to the north of it the lot is bound by an existing water line easement that actually traverses through the site which seemed like a logical place to propose that lot line and to the South it essentially lines up with the center line of that access drive along primeville Road okay for the proposed improvements within lat uh center around a proposed restaurant with drive-through use so again the proposed building is 4,456 square ft one story 18.8 ft it conforms with respect to all the bulk criteria for setbacks um and height as well the uh just for reference the entrance the entrance to the proposed building is located near the uh Eastern edge of the uh of the building on the narrow side there are 26 parking spaces also proposed within lot a which would provide a convenient parking area for both customers and employees however I would like to note that customers and employees would not be limited to the parking areas within L A as part of the application subject to approval there would be a reciprocal easement agreement adopted as part of um between proposed lot a and existing uh lot 27.1 that agreement would cover shared parking utilities access Etc we are proposing um two variances for the location of the parking the first would be parking within a setback uh the front yard this is consistent with the existing conditions there are uh parking spaces proposed within the the front yard um of lot proposed lot a today and we are also proposing to place parking spaces there uh the second would be proximity of the parking to the building main entrance so we are proposing a setback of 8.3 ft that's the separation between the parking spaces at the uh Eastern edge of the building and the building itself again I would like to note that we do feel this is appropriate considering the nature of the the subdivision and there's actually are Elsewhere on site under existing conditions where there's as little as 3.5 ft between the parking and the um building so we are actually exceeding the minimum that's found Elsewhere on site I'd like to briefly describe the operation of the drive-thru and then I'm going to describe and provide some testimony on site circulation and access to lot a for both vehicular and pedestrian um uh traffic so as was previously testified there's a proposed uh dual Lane drive-thru so customers um once within lot three I'm sorry lot a would access the drive-thru near that northeast corner of the building they would be able to uh queue into one of the two drive-through lanes and then circulate the building in a counterclockwise direction towards one of two menu boards from there and that that uh menu boards are located near that northwest corner of the building the proposed building from there there would be a uh a merge of the lane into a single drive-through Lane where uh customers would continue traversing around in a counterclockwise direction to the pay window a subsequent uh order pickup window and then there is a third window for um orders that may be taking a little bit longer than anticipated perhaps a larger order um maybe maybe something needs to be restocked to avoid uh delay in queuing and service there's a third window um for customers to pull up to and wait there Al there also are um the potential for uh spaces to be proposed for more long-term waiting beyond the third pickup window as well um okay so for Access for uh vehicular and pedestrian so VE for vehicles accessing the proposed lot and proposed restaurant there's a few different options the most convenient option would be for uh Vehicles traveling along primeville Road to access at that full uh existing driveway located uh just south of the intersection they could then make a right-hand turn into the um uh drve vi just to the east of the proposed restaurant from there they would have access to uh parking spaces uh convenient to the building and also the drive-thru queuing do you think that channelization is a improvement from what exists out there today in terms of the right into that area area of the site so there are there are several changes that we're proposing to improve that um access point so under existing conditions the access point is actually in essentially the same exact location so referring to exhibit A2 if you come uh if you Traverse into that driveway along primeville Road and you wanted to go to Wells Fargo just to the north of that driveway you would make a very similar movement into this access drive and travel to El Fargo under um existing conditions though I'd like to to note that that's essentially a full access um driveway there so Vehicles could also exit from that drive make a left out onto uh primeville Road they could also make a left into that drive from the shopping center under proposed conditions we are proposing to restrict that to a right turn in Lane only um we're accomplishing that by striping signage and we've even considered and would be willing to propose um Del flexible delineators along the access drive to really prevent visually um vehicles from making a left turn lane uh left turn in or a right turn out of that driveway once in utilizing that driveway customers could like I said either Park and or enter the drive-thru and then when they need to leave or if the parking is full they would exit near the northeast corner of proposed lot a from there they could circulate to the West in front between the proposed McDonald's and Wells Far Bank um and then circulate counterclockwise around lot a and re-enter the site for more parking or exit the site um either to the left or to the right uh towards primeville Road um or Prospect blaines Road respectively one other component of the project that we're really excited about and we think it's a really great enhancement is the proposed pedestrian access to the site so under existing conditions there are no uh there's no interconnectivity between The Pedestrian access uh within the public RightWay the sidewalk or the interior of the site sidewalk under proposed conditions we're actually proposing three different access points to the public right away the sidewalk within the ex public RightWay and then we're also proposing multiple improvements within the interior of the site to help facilitate pedestrian uh travel between all the different uses on site so the first access point being proposed is along Prospect PLS Road just along that um the the eastern most uh driveway um under proposed conditions pedestrians would be able to utilize the existing sidewalk walk into the site via proposed sidewalk and access any use including the proposed McDonald's without ever leaving a sidewalk or a striped crosswalk the second um point of access being proposed is just near the intersection um of prospect Plains and primeville Road this is the area where I reference there's an existing gray chain so what we're proposing is uh an actual switch back ramp up uh uh from the right away into the site so this would be an 88 compliant ramp to provide access into the center and again from there uh customers or employees could could Traverse the site uh via sidewalk uh and any and stripe crosswalk for any Crossings again this would all be covered under that uh Rea uh for for easement um connectivity the third access point for pedestrian is uh near that Southeast corner of the property um again not convenient for McDonald's but there's another axis being proposed into the site um one one more note on the uh uh proposed driveways and vehicle accesses there are uh two variances proposed with the driveway um along primeville road so again these are existing conditions that in our opinion we actually are making better U the first is separation between the uh public RightWay and the driveway which the minimum required is 100 ft whereas 28 ft are proposed the existing condition is approximately 26 ft so again we're making that a little bit better and we're also making the improvements I had previously mentioned the second uh variance is for for proximity of a driveway to um a property line so again this is really a result of the financial subdivision and it occurs adjacent to the uh drive-through Lane which is uh which is approximately 14 ft from the proposed lot line along the northern boundary of proposed lot a whereas 20 ft is required so I'll I'm going to move on to loading and refu for the proposed McDonald's use so there's a proposed trash enclosure located just to the northwest corner of proposed lot a there's different ways this could be accessed but the most convenient access would be for the truck to enter off of prospect Plains Road circulate through the site and uh pick up trash and then depart depending on whether it's a rear load or front load the route may be a little bit different um and for for loading for the McDonald's restaurant uh the loading would actually occur there is no demarcated loading zone proposed the loading would actually occur off hours um from operation along the southern edge of the um of the restaurant adjacent to the drive-thru so again this would be occurring approximately twice a week off hours as to not conflict with the operation of the McDonald's or other um businesses within the overall Center one waiver is being requested uh with respect to the trash enclosure there's a requirement for um a minimum a 5ft landscaping buffer around the walls of the trash enclosure we do have areas that range from about a foot to 5 ft along the um perimeter of the trash enclosure with uh no Landscaping proposed between the trash enclosure and the McDonald's use so we are requesting um a waiver for that um relief with respect to Landscaping this is another part of the project we're really excited about and we think it provides a really nice enhancement to the overall Center and the proposed McDonald's so as was pre previously testified to we are providing a net reduction in impervious surface of more than 4,000 square ft that in of itself is a really great benefit to the site from Aesthetics and storm water furthermore we're proposing uh four shade trees uh more than 120 shrubs different types of shrubs mix of Evergreens and deciduous shrubs and 162 perennials along with 88 ornamental grasses mixed in there as well we'll also be maintaining the existing um shrubs along the uh Eastern uh portion of lot a along primeville Road there's a nice little shub r in there that we're going to maintain to uh screen headlights out to primeville road we are have ever asking for a a variance um a couple of variances with respect to buffers uh associated with landscaping again these are essentially existing conditions but because we're creating this lot and making modifications we are requesting the variances uh the first is for buffer from a RightWay there's a 60ft requirement we're proposing 5.6 ft again Elsewhere on site it's very similar to what we're proposing and it's very similar to existing conditions it's almost identical to existing conditions along primeville Road uh we're also requesting a buffer from the property line obviously because of the the um layout of the proposed subdivision there's essentially a zero foot uh buffer on the property because it's the the property line as proposed along shareed access drives so again we're requesting variance relief for that requirement uh there's a 60 foot buffer requirement we're proposing zero negative impacts to the surrounding areas as a result of that question I I I do not uh with respect to the proposed lot a and again despite the reduction in impervious coverage we are also requesting a variance for imperious coverage because although we are reducing from approximately 88% to um a proposed 85.2% on proposed lot a it's still a variance because the minimum the maximum permitted is 60% but from an overall perspective in terms of the shopping center plus the McDonald's it's an overall reduction overall net reduction alone on just the McDonald's side we're adding um over 3700 ft of permeable surface and Landscaping and on that note I'm going to just transition to the benefits that that provides with respect to storm water so again any reduction in impervious uh surface in this case would would um by default meet the storm water requirements for the D and Township requirements because when you reduce impervious cover you're reducing the storm water discharg from the site we're also improving the water quality by reducing the impervious cover and are also improving the water quality by reducing the motor vehicle surface um on site so by proposing a a building proposing the Landscaping areas we're adding a real benefit to the center with respect to storm water for both quantity and quality so the the amount of storm water leaving the site and the quality of that storm water in addition to that um we are also proposing two uh rain Gardens um just to the south of the uh McDonald's building along the the West and East ends of the parking aisle there these ring Gardens will provide some additional supplemental water quality and um quantity reductions as well again not required but something that uh there was a request uh made from the environmental commission so we reviewed it and revised the plans to provide some rain Gardens okay so for uh the proposed lighting we are proposing new lighting within the area of lot a the lighting will be led and will be compliant with respect to a mounting height it's going to be mounted at the same height as the building the 18.8 Ft which meets the ordinance criteria which is a maximum height of 20 fet or um the height of the building not to exceed 20 feet is what is permitted we do have uh two waivers we're looking to request relief for with respect to lighting so the first is maximum value at the property line again pretty consistent with um the theme here with the proposed subdivision line but uh we are exceeding the 0.5 requirement at the property line because again the property line occurs within shared access drives and we are requesting um a to have a light level of 1.7 foot candles within the the boundary of the property line but that won't have any any impacts with respect to surrounding properties of the overall shopping center correct having a a light value that's consistent with the proposed parking lot is I think would be uh beneficial to um have that maintained at the property line uh in this case because of the financial subdivision and can you just explain why LED lighting is is more beneficial than other types of lighting sure so the LED lighting it's a it's a it's a more uh energy efficient lighting number one that's one benefit it also provides a nicer a more uniform um uh like distribution so you get less um change between high points and low points so it's it does have multiple benefits uh that Improvement and is the lighting Source shielded on those fixtures as well uh we we can Pro agree to provide um shields for the lighting fixtures that anything that faces the road okay but our our our intent was to propose the lights so they point away from the road into the center uh the second uh waiver being requested with respect to the proposed lighting is for minimum value which is measured with respect to the average value within the parking area so it's not really a set number but the requirement is to have a minimum value within 75% of the average value um which in this case would be a lighting value of 3.07 we're proposing a minimum of 1.4 um again we feel this is appropriate um the typical lighting value and distribution um don't really foresee any negative impact from this waiver request all right the last thing on the McDonald's that I'll talk about is the uh proposed signage so we are fully compliant with respect to uh the proposed signage there are three signs with respect to the proposed size of the signage so we're permitted up to 40 ft of uh sign area and we're proposing a combined sign area of 35 ft we are requesting a um variance for the number of signs though we're permitted to have one wall mount to sign per use McDonald's is proposing um two of the m logos and then a McDonald's sign so again cumulatively they are were in conformance but just because of the number of signs in the distribution we're we're requesting a variance relief so so just to be clear you could have one sign that equals 40 s ft we you're H proposing three signs that equal 35 ft correct okay does the drive-thru count as a sign uh no for the menu board is it a freestanding display board in the way that we evaluated the ordinance it wouldn't have counted as a sign but I'd be open to interpretation from your planner but jump G I'm sorry M we'll we'll get to that when we that's fine okay now I'd like to move on to the second part of my testimony which is going to be talking about the improvements on lot 27.0 one which were intended to um enhance the the site and also complement the proposed uh restaurant so I'm going to talk first about the um uh different layout configuration changes that we made across the site the first Improvement along primeville I already uh provided testimony on and what we believe are the benefits of that reconfiguration um restricting that access into the M proposed McDonald's to write in only we're also proposing to realign the access drive to the west of the proposed McDonald's and proposed lat a so we're proposing uh a four-way uh stopped intersection uh just to the north I'm sorry the west southwest corner of proposed lot a we do believe that this is a a further benefit with respect to circulation it will help to um cont uh mitigate uh and and enhance the entering of the facility because we're going to be proposing a stop so it should smooth out the operation of that internal drive a we're also providing convenient access to the um uses along the northern edge of the property uh the two banks that are existing site right now there's a large uh open parking field where lot 3A I'm sorry lot a is um and we're providing a channelized um access point for those two Banks which we think will help to mitigate folks cutting through uh that open parking area uh pedestrian enhancements to circulation I I did already provide some testimony on those improvements however I would like to highlight that the uh proposed pedestrian improvements are not limited to uh proposed uh McDonald's lot it would be um enhancements throughout the site um to provide interconnection to all the different uses on site um there is there are several areas we're proposing new sidewalk curb ramps all of which would be uh ada8 compliant so anything we're proposing we're ensuring that it's going to be ADA Compliant um at least for design and uh like I said before customers or employees can circulate the site um without without leaving the sidewalk or a stripe crosswalk area we're also proposing um more Landscaping on lot 27.0 one again really enhancing the Aesthetics of the the property we're proposing six uh shade trees and 118 shrubs most of the the the shade trees are being proposed along the um uh parking field in front of the Stop and Shop which is another area we're going to be improving so we have reconfigured the parking uh adjacent to the stopping shop but furthest to the south of the property so as you can see on exhibit A2 currently you can access uh from primeville road that um southernmost uh uh full movement access into the uh front of the property and you turn immediately right and there's a drive that runs parallel with primeville road we have reconfigured that to provide a little bit more space of separation between the uh proposed driveway and we've proposed parking along the perimeter of the site um resulting in 13 additional spaces for Stop and Shop um parking field and again we've also proposed shade trees in that area shrubs and are proposing to restripe that portion of the lot to help improve function and esta of that area of the site so for the net impact uh to the overall parking of the center I'd like to touch on that briefly so there is a net reduction in parking um we through throughout the center um we are making modifications again restriping repaving uh reconfiguring the parking um but there is a net loss embarking due to the proposed uh McDonald so the uh existing and this is another comment that came up in the planning letter there was a question about the number of spaces on site so I'm going to describe that briefly the submitted survey identified 642 uh parking spaces on site however that survey didn't take into consideration the car Corrals that are located on site so there's a total of 15 spaces under existing conditions that are taken up by car CW so the total available parking on site under existing condition is 627 parking spaces um the minimum required number of parking spaces for the ordinance is 583 parking spaces which is based on a four per 1,000 square ft of gross floor area uh we are proposing 581 parking spaces five of which are uh proposed to be EV Make Ready spaces the electric vehicle Make Ready spaces which per the ordinance um qualify uh for a benefit of five addition spaces so with the EV spaces that would bring the total proposed parking value to 586 spaces whereas 583 are um required so we would be fully compliant with respect to proposed parking however there is a a reduction in the net parking on site however again we did review the parking uh throughout the site we're making improvements to the striping the configuration try to relocate some of the parking in front of the Stop and Shop building and and um just provide an overall benefit um despite the reduction in parking we are uh requesting a few different variances for again these are existing conditions but uh throughout the site there are several Drive ISS that are 24 ft in width whereas 25 ft is required um all the proposed parking spaces meet the 10 X2 minimum requirement for parking however there are spaces on site that do not meet that requirement they vary in size down to 9 by 17 approximately so that's an existing condition but for all the proposed parking spaces we are meeting the requirement with respect to the stall size uh for lighting throughout the remaining of the center so we are reconfiguring the lighting along that um area of parking uh uh Improvement in in front of Stop and Shop along that Eastern portion of the Stop and Shop parking lot ma'am you need not to interrupt them during their testimony when we take a break surely you'll be able to go up and take a look as I said before thank you I understand that that take a break you we'll have ample time to take a look if you have a question if they'll be so kind to answer a question just to give you a little bird's eye and then we'll resume the meeting but until then we need to let them continue to ref this onebody that's fine but also downstairs in the auxiliary room for the Overflow there's a full-size plan there that everyone can view it it okay so you'll be able to see it down there as well continue problem go ahead K sure so the uh one more point on the proposed parking improvements and the proposed uh trees that are being proposed with the uh improved uh parking area in front of Stop and Shop um we are proposing curved Islands within those parking spaces to meet the township requirement for one uh landscaped Island for every 20 uh parking spaces however we would like to note that throughout the center um there is existing conditions which do not provide uh accommodations to meet that requirement so we're requ requesting relief for these uh parking Fields greater than 20 spaces without the u landscaped Islands but again however for proposed parking areas we are providing those those trees as required there's a reconfiguration of lighting in that same area in front of stopping shop will'll be relocating the existing light fixtures into the parking field moving them uh towards the West away from Prospect blaines Road trying to maintain uh consistency with the existing conditions on site for lighting we are again requesting two waivers for lighting very similar to the waivers requested for the proposed McDonald's project um property uh the first is the lighting at the property line we are exceeding uh the 0.5 foot candle minimum proposing 3.4 foot candles again this occurs um at the area between proposed lot a and 20 and lot 27.0 one U which we do not feel as of any detriment because it's along a main access drive and is appropriate to be lit at 3.4 foot candles the second waiver is uh again for the minimum value relative to the average ratio within the parking field so we would be required to meet the 75% um which would come out to 1.28 foot candles whereas there are portions um again trying to meet the intent of the ordinance and minimize lighting impact to the public RightWay there are a few spaces is along that southern I'm sorry uh easternmost property line where we're proposing parking spaces where the lighting value goes down to3 so again we're trying to balance the um meaning the intent of the ordinance to minimize lighting spill at uh property lines while also maintaining an appropriate value within the parking area KY I'm sorry if I missed it but you indicated that the lighting would be moved further away from primeville correct correct yes further to the West into the parking uh field okay there's no out there by the way there's no plan you said there was it's it's on it's on the screen downstairs K can you check that please we're going to send someone down and check it do you want us to continue continue okay all right that concludes my direct all right so Kyle just just to summarize do you believe that the storm water is being enhanced as a result of this project yes you believe that Landscaping is being enhanced as a result of this project yes you believe that the lighting is going to be improved as a result of this project without any detriments to the surrounding properties uh I do okay and you believe that a lot of the traffic um circulation issues have been I guess mitigated that currently exist on site based on the improvements that we're making yes we do believe that the proposed improvements to traffic circulation for both vehicular and pedestrian are an improvement relative to exist existing conditions okay all right I have no further questions for this witness at this time we're happy to answer questions now or if you want us we're going to go to your to your traffic and then we'll get to then we'll get to our professionals and then we'll get the question that's fine so the next one is I plan on calling Mr chairman is Paul going with Atlantic traffic want to say here Paul uh Council what we're going to do is we're going to take uh five minutes fine before he starts his testimony so everyone can stretch their legs they can view we'll have a minute or two to make sure we get downstairs on if it's not on so people could view it and then we'll reconvene at uh 7:30 fine thank you e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e find your seats please I know thank you he everybody could have your attention we're going back into session thank you Council please proceed all right thank you thank you Mr chairman uh the next one is we're going to call is our traffic engineer Paul going from Atlantic traffic so we should swear a in do you swear the testimony going to provide us the truth all truth and nothing but truth yes if you could state your name spell your last name and give us your address please for the record sure my name is Paul goinging the last name is g i n g just like the word going uh I work for Atlantic traffic and design engineering we're located at 30 Independence Boulevard in Warren New Jersey okay can you just bring that talk real loud Paul can you give the board the benefit of your qualifications as a traffic engineer educational background licenses held whether they're current and in good standing and experience testifying before planning and zoning boards throughout the state sure I'm a 1993 graduate of the Cooper Union for the advancement of science and art where I earned a bachelor of engineering degree in civil engineering since that time I've been working as a traffic and transportation engineer I'm a licensed professional engineer in the state of New Jersey as well as Connecticut and New York and I've been accepted as a traffic expert at L use boards throughout New Jersey including uh nearby East Brunswick Oldbridge Marboro and sville Council will accept his credentials as a professional all right thank you thank you Mr chairman okay so Paul why don't we get started I know Kyle went through the existing conditions of the site from a civil perspective so let's not repeat those but if you could just explain some of the existing conditions as it relates to your testimony of the property and then we can go into trip generation parking and site circulation sure um just uh my office prepared a traff report for the project it's dated June 30th 2021 with a revision date of February 19th 2024 um so Kyle went into a lot of detail about the access and the and and what's on the site now it's a an existing 141,142 shopping center uh there are two driveways along Prospect Plains Road which is also County Route 614 and uh three driveways along penville Road County Route 625 uh so both of our frontages are under County jurisdiction the site currently has 642 parking stalls uh 15 of which are occupied by cart Corral so there's there's 627 spaces in the proposed condition the McDonald's is proposed uh which would be 4,456 square ft it would be located between the Wells Fargo and the first driveway along pville Road and that driveway I I think I measured it a little differently than Kyle did but I measured it to be over 250 ft from the intersection and that's measured from the radius at the intersection to our driveway um for perspective uh if this were an NJ do Road the requirement to for spacing to a signalized intersection for a driveway would be 100 ft so we're at least at 250 ft uh the restaurant would be 60 seats um that's that's somewhat small for McDonald's and we're proposing the side-by-side drive-thru which is McDonald's standard these days uh the parking would be reduced from that 627 stalls to 586 stalls a 41 stall reduction however the parking in front of the stoping shop which I I think uh drives the parking demand at this Center that that amount of parking in that field would be increased by 13 stalls um the site access would would change a little bit the the driveway the first driveway south of of prospect planes on brinville would remain where it is um it would continue to have a restriction on it which is no vehicles over four tons which means uh basically Passenger cars and we're proposing to restrict the turn towards the McDonald's and Wells Fargo from that driveway to be right turn and only so if you're heading east in that driveway away from the Stop and Shop you can you will not be permitted to turn left uh to head towards the McDonald's and Wells Fargo bank and in addition to that no cars can come out of that driveway either correct no cars coming out of that driveway either correct um and as Kyle mentioned uh we we're proposing to this isn't on the plans but we're proposing to install flexible delineators those are those uh vertical tubes with um reflective uh tape that's that goes around them along the the dou line in that driveway so that people will not turn left into the McDonald's from from the driveway um so the the effect of of those changes means that there'd be no conflicts for traffic entering the site uh and then either choosing to continue straight or or turning right to go to the McDonald's or Wells Fargo and I took a look I took a look at the speeds of vehicles making these Maneuvers um and for this I used two things I used uh an ashto passenger vehicle so ashto is the American Association of State Highway and transportation officials um and they put out a book it's it's referred to usually as the ashto green book it's uh design guidelines for roadways and part of that book goes into design Vehicles so uh in there they have a passenger vehicle um the passenger vehicle they Define is about the size of a Chevy Suburban so it's not a it's not a small vehicle it's a it's a large passenger vehicle and that guide book and that guide book is something that's accepted within the traffic engineering industry correct correct correct um so the uh the passenger vehicle in that book can make a turn on about a 19t Center Line radius um the so I took uh a passenger vehicle an astro passenger vehicle and I used a tool called autoturn it's a um it's a software program that runs on the um the computer drafting programs we use and you can draw a path and have the the vehicle turn and you've probably seen many times truck turning exhibits and uh exhibits showing how a vehicle is going to access a site uh another feature of this program is that you can get a readout of what speeds the vehicle is traveling at uh so again the the passenger vehicle being a like a Chevy Suburban a large vehicle can turn on a 19t Center Line radius and if a if if a vehicle is heading south and primeville and making right turn a right turn and turning 90° to head towards stopping shop um that turn would actually be on a 45 ft Center Line radius so it's not it's not really um close to the limit of of what that vehicle can turn so it's it's really not that tight of a turn uh for that turn that vehicle would slow down have to slow down to 9 miles hour and it would take about 14.1 seconds to make the turn for the same vehicle heading to the McDonald's uh so turning 180° uh they would turn on a 35 to 30t Center Line radius so still it's not the tightest radius that that design vehicle can turn on they would have to slow down more to to turn on the tighter radius and they would slow down to 7.3 milph it would take them about 16.1 seconds to make that turn uh so it takes about 14.1 seconds to make the the right turn uh to go towards Stop and Shop it takes about 16 seconds so two more seconds to make the turn to go towards the McDonald's so there's really um very little difference in uh where that vehicle would how much time that vehicle will be occupying that space uh which I think is an indicator that uh we don't have to worry about Vehicles backing up because they have to slow down excessively to make that turn so why don't you explain and explain why why you if you believe that it's beneficial some of the overall site circulation modifications that have been made to the shopping center uh sure so one of the primary changes is the the stop controlled four-way intersection that's proposed at the uh the northeast corner of the of the Stop and Shop well I think it's it's helpful we can we just point to where that is on the plan I just think that that might be helpful for the board and also the public just to show that so that's this in this vicinity oh we got a blue color this time okay yeah so uh so today it goes east west into the South it's a T intersection today um the today the Northbound movement is the only stop controlled movement uh so by we're we're changing it to a four-way condition we're changing it to a four-way stop so people have to stop on all the approaches which is uh better control of traffic and would help will help slow traffic down and make it safer um another thing we're doing within the center where the McDonald's and just for the record sorry we're referring to A3 correct that is correct uh another thing we're doing at the center is of course that the McDonald's is being placed in an existing parking field um our observations and studies of this site showed that that part of the Center parking is is not being utilized it's underutilized and as a result drivers do tend to drive across that area outside of the the designated uh Drive aisles is is haphazardly a good word to describe it correct yeah I would agree uh so we're eliminating that open expanse of of unused pavement that drivers today cut across and uh that will increase site safety but the most significant change in my opinion is The Pedestrian connectivity we propos um today there today there's a sidewalk that runs across the front of the Stop and Shop um and to to the other uh stores that are are kind of contiguous with the grocery store we're adding pedestrian connectivity I point that the wrong way I put Lind uh we're adding pedestrian connectivity from the driveway on Prospect planes uh along that driveway down to the is it a North Field bank and then further down to the Wells Fargo Bank we're adding connectivity to the uh the signalized intersection the signalized intersection is served by crosswalks on all the approaches uh served with uh pedestrian push buttons which we inspected and found everything to be in working order uh so we're adding that pedestrian connection there uh uh then further south on primeville we're adding another pedestrian connection uh to the southerly portion of the center and you'll be able to walk from the sidewalks that are on the the site frontages to the banks to the McDonald's to the Stop and Shop uh all on either sidewalk or crosswalks so that's a that's a great enhancement at this Center can you just speak to if you were going to get to adjust the Ada accessibility of those those routes those those routes are going to be uh constructed to be Ada accessible um as as Kyle mentioned the switch back is required to get down into the site from the uh the corner um so we're we're proposing that to to meet the ADA requirements all right so I guess the next next aspect of your testimony that I want to um go into is trip Generation Um that you evaluated um as part of your study and also some of the supplemental data that you collected as a result of um some comments that we received from the from the township and the board's professionals sure so why don't you just explain your methodology and some of the things that you looked at to analyze the trip generation with respect to this project project okay so uh we use data published by The Institute of Transportation Engineers also known as the it as the basis for calculating the the new traffic associated with the project um and for everyone's benefit that's the Treatise or the publication that the the New Jersey Department of Transportation accepts the county of middle sex accepts and all Traffic Engineers as a whole utilize this publication yeah that's that's universally accepted across the country um there with some few exceptions uh it's a it it's a book that compiles traffic data that's been collected at all different land uses including shopping centers including uh fast food restaurants with dyrs um our site is a shopping center that's uh it land land use code 820 um shopping centers as a whole are beneficial to the traveling public uh because you get a number of different uses that share access and share a parking Supply so when you develop New Uses within a shopping center you're not adding additional driveways along the the public rights of way where minimizing the number of driveways on roads is a goal of access management for for safety purposes uh you also have fewer turns being made from the public Highway onto the site because when you locate different uses together on the site some drivers going to visit more two or more of those uses when they make a trip all right so instead of coming in a driveway to one use and then going back out and then going to the next use down the street you you stay on site and there's fewer turns being made in and out of of the driveways um in addition extensive research by the it shows that as shopping centers get larger the amount of traffic they generate does not increase proportionally it starts to level off as as as it gets larger um so the the the rate is reduced with the more square footage and that's really a consequence of uh people coming in visiting multiple uses uh on one trip rather than um going to multiple different locations so there there's a net reduction in trips um when we have shopping centers which is beneficial so uh the it the it recommends using L use code 820 shopping center to calculate the traffic generated by a project like ours so that would be a calculation based just purely on the square footage um the proposed McDonald's represents about a 4% increase in square feet at the center um if we were to calculate the trip generation per luse code 820 we would find very few additional trips between 4 and 21 in a peak hour um so while that's the it recommendation for for that situation uh we wanted to provide a conserv analysis and we calculated the McDonald's trips as if it were a standalone restaurant okay so just so just to be clear to summarize that for the for for people that don't hear this type of testimony of often typically shopping centers are evaluated as a whole because people go from one store to the to the next and don't leave the site and come back they stay within the site correct correct and it's um to individually account for the interaction between the multiple uses and destinations on a site um is is difficult okay so that that analysis would be accepted however in order to be conservative and to ensure that we evaluated this as as thoroughly as possible you evaluated this separately as just a standalone McDonald's restaurant with drive-thru as if the rest of the shopping center was not there correct correct correct okay um so when we when we do that calculation uh we come up with 114 customers coming for weekday lunch 72 customers coming for weekday dinner and 122 Saturday lunch and when I these numbers are for a peak hour so um The Lunch Period the dinner period uh these periods you know stretch over the course of several hours but um in the peak hour we'd have 114 weekday lunch customers 7 22 weekday dinner customers and 122 Saturday lunch customers um and I just a minute ago I alluded to the the difficulty of calculating uh the interactivity between different uses on a site and how that would um result in a net reduction in external trips right because some of the trips would be captured internally to the site and there is a calculation you can do to estimate um how many of the McDonald's customers are going to visit another use on the site uh I didn't use this calculation in our analysis but it it would show that about 50 to 80 of M the McDonald's customers depending on the peak hour would visit another use on the site and therefore not result in in an additional trip so that would basically mean if somebody's shopping at Stop and Shop picking up groceries they may go go to the McDonald's to pick up food on their way home or something along sorry could you repeat that number what what was the amount of uh 50 to 60 50 to 60 per hour in a peak hour depending on the peak hour yeah so just to take a closer look at this um we did conduct some of our own research at area McDonald's um specifically we we were looking for McDonald's with side by-side drive-throughs my my office is I've worked on many many McDonald's applications um I haven't done a lot of counts of side by-side drive-throughs because most of the projects we're doing um we're changing an old school uh drive-thru to a to a side by side so uh we found two locations in the area one is at 16 Wilson Avenue in Englishtown uh the other is is here in Monroe at one Gateway Boulevard down on Route 33 and we we selected these locations because they were within shopping centers they had the side by-side drive-thru they were located in the shopping center in a way that we could uh take a look at their operating characteristics without um confusing who was parking for the McDonald's with who was parking for other uses uh uh so we we studied a weekday uh lunch period 11:00 a.m. to 2: p.m. that was on Thursday July 20th of 20123 and this these counts were done in July we we normally don't do traffic counts um on roads in the summer months because uh the traffic patterns fluctuate however we we did find out from McDonald's that these two particular uh locations that uh they're their busiest times of year includes the summer so we we felt comfortable doing these counts uh so we counted that that weekday lunch in J July 20th of 2023 the weekday dinner also July 20th 2023 and then Saturday lunch on July 22nd of 2023 and what we found is the average peak hour trip generation was Les than the it rates um so again we use the it rates in our analysis and and that's what we analyzed from a traffic perspective but I do feel uh comfortable that this is a very conservative uh way of looking at the analysis um and just uh another item I want to mention is that a fast food restaurant Resturant um by its nature it's a convenience use and um especially during peak hours the traffic it generates isn't all new traffic which is to say some of the people going are going to a McDonald's are people who were already driving right they were already going about their day their business and they they drop into McDonald's as as part of you know their their other movements whether they stop on the way home from work or or just uh uh during a trip uh it studies show that about 50% of peak hour McDonald's or fast food with drive-through customers are pass by trips meaning somebody who's diverted from their trip to the m to the use uh as opposed to being a new trip um so we we conducted traffic at the site uh at the signalized intersection as well as site driveways and we did that uh on Wednesday June 16th 2021 uh 11:00 a.m. to 1 p.m Wednesday June 16th 400 p.m. to 6:00 pm. and Saturday June 19th from uh 1:00 a.m. that's a typ of 11:00 a.m. to 2: p.m. uh we determined that the peak hour hours in each of these periods were uh 11:45 a.m. to 12:45 p.m. on both the the weekday and the Saturday uh lunch period and then in the the weekday evening period 4:30 p.m. to 5:30 p.m the these counts were conducted in 2021 uh when we were all still social distancing due to covid and uh schools were virtual um so what we did during CO as Traffic Engineers was obtained historic traffic volume data from NJ doot and we took a look at that data and uh applied some growth to it and we compared it to what we counted when you say that data you mean data within the area is that correct correct okay um and we compared it to the data we counted to determine whether uh the traffic that we observed needed to be bumped up um or increase to account for Co um and this location we found that it we did not need to correct the data for covid um the data that we found was uh was higher than than what had been collected preco in those same time periods in those same time periods correct uh so the next step was we we took our peak hour traffic volumes and we app applied an annual growth rate of 2% to to the uh to the traffic uh 1% is the growth rate that njdot uses for planning purposes for minor arterials in middlex County so we use 2% to again provide a conservative analysis so basically you bump up the traffic amounts 2% to account for growth in the area correct and if we know of a specific project that was approved that was expected to be constructed in the in close proximity to our project then we would uh calculate the traffic for that use and add it to to the background traffic um but we we did contact the planning department and there there were no projects that we needed to account for that way um so then we we took the traffic and we used software called Synchro to analyze it um the Synchro analysis uses uh the highway capacity manual methodology to analyze traffic and um come up with an operational uh quality for the for the traffic flow um so what we found from our analysis was that the proposed project uh would not have an impact on the adjacent signalized intersection uh we did find a poor level of service F at the site egis to primeville Road the one that's adjacent to the proposed McDonald's location uh so we we sub submitted our report to middx County they reviewed it um because they they have jurisdiction over these these roads and uh they asked us to take a closer look at that movement so we did what's called Gap study and this is in our report as well uh so we followed it methodology to do this study um The Gap with a gap study we take a look at the driveway location and traffic that's passing and we measure the gaps between traffic uh in seconds and um we see how those gaps occur and how long those gaps are right so this the gaps that form in traffic are a result of upstream and downstream signals and and other factors um that you know lead to Vehicles being platooned meaning that you have a line of vehicles that are tight together and then a big gap before the next platoon or you know some locations you don't have ploning um so what we found with The Gap study um was that we had sufficient gaps for the um the erris movements to occur um the county reviewed that they agreed with our finding and and they've approved our our analyses so just to stick with your conclus so what's your conclusion I should phrase it like that what's your conclusion with respect to the trip generation for the site and whether or not there's any substantial or detrimental impact on the surrounding area well we did the analysis um in a conservative way um and just you know frankly if I came in and I said well we're going to put it in a McDonald's and it's going to create four to 20 trips in a peak hour you would be questioning my sanity right um so we we did the analysis in a conservative way as if the McDonald's would Standalone uh without taking into account internal capture in the site and uh we applied that conservative background growth rate and uh based on the results we got the the project would not have an impact on on traffic and would operate efficiently okay so why don't we go to the next topic that you evaluated in your report which is parking sure um just earlier I spoke about shopping centers how there's a benefit to um co-locating uses on one site uh shopping centers also have a parking benefit to co-locating uses on one site um because typically these uses are going to have different times during the day when they're going to have their Peak demand um so rather than uh having an excess of parking to meet that demand uh you can you can have people use you can have shared parking which is essentially different uses using the parking Supply at different times a day um so for the for the site parking we studied the existing parking demand and we did this on Saturday June 19th uh from 11:00 a.m. to 2 p.m Tuesday June Tuesday June 22nd from 11:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. and again on the Tuesday from from 400 p.m. to 6:00 p.m. and then we we also did a follow-up count we did we did a count on Saturday May 27th 2023 um from 10:00 a.m. to 300 p.m. and we we selected to do that fup count because uh we knew there was a concern that at particular times of year uh parking demand is higher and we didn't want to um ignore that so uh we did that count on Saturday May 27th and that was Memorial Day weekend which is is typically a very busy weekend for for shopping centers that are anchored by Grocery Stores um so out of all these counts we saw a maximum of 297 cars parked uh at the time that we did the counts there was some unoccupied square footage at the center and if we take the the maximum rate we saw we saw 2.1 stalls per th000 square ft uh as the demand so if we apply that 2.17 to the total square footage it comes the including the unocc unoccupied square footage that comes to 307 stalls um the demand the demand uh for for at the existing Center as if were fully occupied now we separately we also did uh with the McDonald's research that we did at those same sites the same time periods we we studied the parking demand at those locations well those are the two other McDonald's that you mentioned Earl to one in English town and the other one in Monroe that's correct okay yeah and the the maximum parking demand rate we saw was 6.4 stalls per th000 square ft so the the 6.4 stalls per th000 000 sare ft comes to 29 stalls for the proposed McDonald's um so taking that 29 stalls in the 307 the demand for 307 that we observed um that's a total of 336 stalls where 586 are proposed um so we would operate with a reserve capacity of 250 stalls or about 43% so your office um has had the ability and you mentioned this before has worked on a lot of McDonald's side by-side drive-thru projects correct sure yes yeah approximately how many um between 1 and 200 okay so can you just describe the double the I would say the two ordering points um and have this type of drive-thru facility works as opposed to the single Lan sure um so over the last 10 to 15 years uh McDonald's has seen the proportion of drive-thru um customers versus dining room customers increase uh it increased a lot under covid um it's it's decreased a little bit from then but it's still definitely um the trend has been to increase um in addition the McDonald's uh menu is expanded to where there's more choices and as a result people take longer to make their order McDonald's found for their research that um the choke point in a drive-through operation is typically taking the customer's order it usually takes about twice as long to take the customer's order as it takes for the customer to pay or the customer to pick up their food so uh McDonald's has been focusing on improving ordering times um and you know part of that is the menu boards that were alluded to earlier in Kyle's testimony uh the pre- browse menu boards as well um but adding the second ordering spot is really um the Cornerstone of McDonald's um drive-through operations moving forward um so for for each menu for each ordering Point there's a menu board the there's an a speaker the menu board uh dims at night so during the day when it's bright out um it's brighter at night it it dims to match the ambient lighting and the speaker works the same way where the volume on the speaker the the speaker um monitoring the Ambient sound levels and is uh the speaker is louder when there's more ambient noise and Qui fighter When there's less ambient noise so uh you pull in to either spot you make make your order the the vehicles merge together this is sometimes a point of uh confusion for people not familiar with it but when you're actually sitting there making your order you have a very clear line of sight to the other vehicle so um there there's really no history of uh people crashing into each other at this point when they're moving they're moving at a very slow speed uh as well so the second ordering Point um it has a couple of benefits one is just geometrically you've got two lanes over a portion of the drive-thru so you can queue up or stack more cars in in a small smaller or more compact space uh and then the operational improve movement one one aspect of it is uh taking two orders at once because it takes people on average twice as long to order um the other aspect of it is that some people take a long time to order whether um they just can't make up their minds or they ma'am ma'am they they're they're allowed to give their full full testimony this is a legal proceeding and unfortunately we do not cut them short just like when it comes to the public portion you'll have the opportunity to speak as well thank you excuse me sir this is the process of how it works it's just not a cut and dry situation the way you think it is we need to hear all the testimony before a decision is rendered or before this board goes we also need to hear the input from the audience at that point as well so we have to give them the appropriate time the way we're going to give everyone in the audience the appropriate time and our professionals and our board members as well so that is the process it's unfortunate it is a lengthy process this is a very complex application and it's going to take time and just for those of you who sitting here I highly doubt this will be done this evening so I don't want to upset anyone but it will not be put to a vote tonight because there's still other testimony that needs to take place thank you Council please continue uh sure so um some people take a lot longer to to order because uh maybe they have a car full of kids they've got people shouting what they want at them um so the the two ordering points allows one ordering station to continue to process orders and have customers moving um keeping the drive-thru moving while the other location is is taking a longer complicated order um similarly you you know then as you go through the drive-thru the next stop is is the pay window you pay for your order and then the next stop is the pickup window uh and I I think Kyle stated earlier there's actually two pickup windows so the two pickup windows work as follows you you pull up to the first pickup window if you had a complicated order if you ordered a quter Pounder without cheese they have to make that special folks hold on a second if you folks would like to speak please exit the room to speak this is being recorded it's a legal document again I'm going to ask you to refrain from speaking unless we get to the public portion until then they again they have the right to give their full testimony so please be quiet I would appreciate it thank you so um so there's two two pickup Windows you pull up to the first pickup window and if you had a larger complicated order they're going to tell you can you pull forward to the next window if you pull forward to the next window you can receive your order there while the the window behind you continues to process orders and and give people their meals while you wait in the case where you have a very large order um the the McDonald's person will will'll ask you to pull over into one of the parking spaces to the to the right hand side of the uh the pickup window and you you can wait there and a McDonald's employee brings your meal out to you so the driveth through um by having the the side by side at at the entry point by having the the two uh pickup windows and then the ability to for a person to pull forward and park in a space to wait for their order um all of these things ensure that the the drive-thru is not going to um stop you know processing orders um and that customers are going to be uh served efficiently and um as a result you know that reduces the amount of queuing and at this site I know there's a concern for queuing because um of the the circulation pattern so when we did our McDonald's research at those locations in English town and in Monroe uh we observed the drive-through queuing as well and we we observed a maximum queue of 13 vehicles um that's measured from the the pickup window and on our site we actually can accommodate 23 Vehicles measured from the pickup window without impacting site circulation or parking um that's far above and beyond what's provided at a typical McDonald's um but we did provide that additional queuing storage um just to ensure that that we weren't going to have a situation where the drive-thru is going to back up and block people's ability to circulate or to get to the Wells Fargo so you in your opinion there's enough cushion with the drive-thru to accommodate the vehicles that are projected for this project cor correct yeah there's it's well above and beyond what's needed and that is is that consistent with the other McDonald's that you've worked on throughout your career and experience the the queuing of 13 Vehicles is is consistent with other McDonald's um this this site has an unusual queuing capacity right so it has a lot of extra queuing capacity at a typical McDonald's the queueing capacity might be uh 13 or 14 okay so that's a positive for this location that yes that is a positive for this location all right can you describe your analysis as to how this would um I guess work with the Wells Fargo that's located um next door sure um in in addition to the the other counts and things we did we conducted observations of the uh the Wells Fargo um queuing at the drive-thru and when we were out there we we actually looked at the Northfield Bank as well just um it was a long day and our guy was bored so he he observed that one uh and we saw um a maximum of three cars in que at the drive-thru for the Wells Fargo Bank and a maximum of three at the Northfield Bank um and as as I'm sure the board is aware three cars in the Drive-Thru Q is not going to extend anywhere near the uh the proposed McDonald's location um so we we don't think that there's going to be any um interaction between the McDonald's customers and and uh not being able to get out of the McDonald's site um due to wels Fargo activity right just's a couple other questions just on traffic testimony all the site distances at the driver ways and I'll call them the the entrance and exits to the um subdivided McDonald's portion in your opinion are are designed appropriately and efficiently yes okay and then in terms of parking the the proposed McDonald's provides the requisite um Ada parking that's required that's correct and those Ada stalls are those stalls that are right up against the front of the restaurant um so those customers using those Ada stalls are not having to across the parking aisle and the application also provides the state mandated required um electrical vehicle charging station correct correct okay all right that's all I have for Mr goinging Mr chairman thank you before we go up to our professionals uh one quick question uh the hours of operation were 5:30 a.m. so did you do a bre a breakfast study I heard lunch and dinner and did we do a late night we don't typically do a breakfast study at a shopping center location because shopping centers themselves generate very little traffic during that time period so it's not um a time period that so is that Stop and Shop open 24 hours no I don't I I'm not sure of the hours of the Stop and Shop it's open in the morning so do we do any late night studies no no I mean we we focus on peak hours when our expectation is that the McDonald's Peak is coinciding with the roadway Peak and the shopping center Peak activity okay Ma I'm G to turn this over to you at this point I have all right you can hear me right okay I have just couple of questions for you Mr going um Mr Mr chairman I just ask a question question before the U ma goes are these now questions for both traffic and civil should I have them both here ready we'll alternate spots when required right now I think she's okay just just wanted to make just wanted to double Che that's fine just want to double check that's you want them up there as well that's fine they could just share a mic when you know if anything is directed towards them yeah that way we can just answer the appropriate witness can answer the question that's all okay perfect um following up uh the question that Mr chairman just asked about the breakfast study and late night study um you did say you studied the two McDonald's one was along Highway Route 33 now uh this one is um you know still a county road but uh not a highway does that in any way change any kind of study patterns as to number of visitors to a McDonald's yeah if if anything I think um the number of visitors would be higher at at that location than at this location um but in in terms of finding uh a relatively close restaurant that was in a shopping center type setting um that has a side-by-side drive-thru uh we we selected to to count that one so there when there's more traffic passing by um it seems likely that that there'd be more traffic entering and exiting the restaurant the the it method the it data and the the way NJ doot looks at it is that the independent variable is the square footage of the restaurant not it's unrelated to the road that it's on okay um one of the testimony um and I might have missed part of it um I think um you mentioned after you mentioned that you add the 2% traffic growth to your calculation and you did the syn analysis and uh you found the level of service was F for the primeville road is that correct for the driveway exit onto primeville okay and uh following which um I I guess you submitted to County and County asked you to do something called a gap study correct um so the conclusion was that there is no impact but does that does the Los change or does it still remain f um the so the Los is coming from a a calculation using the highway capacity methodology or Highway capacity manual um so I I wouldn't really change that however the methodology the HCM methodology used in syro is um is not fine grained enough to uh to see as it's not as fine grained as the Gap analysis so the Gap analysis shows that the this the operation would be acceptable whereas so I would I wouldn't necessarily change the losf I would just say that um in this case the Gap analysis supersedes the the Los analysis from Synchro just before we continue I just wanted to answer a question sorry I just wanted to answer a question the chairman had just because the stop and shops hours are 7:00 a.m. to 10: p.m. according to the owner so as you had asked I just want to make sure we had that clear thank you thank you so um so the no impact is as part of the Gap analysis and is it fair to say the losf remaining losf is also a no impact is that the fair that's correct I would say the Gap analysis supersedes the the losf and just for you know the purpose of this uh could you clarify what Los f means as from a traffic engineer the definition of it sure so levels of service are um sort of uh traffic quality of flows they range from a to F with a being the best meaning that you're you're driving with um no traffic impeding you um a B and C are considered good levels of service d d is an acceptable level of service e is congested and and F is very congested okay um the the other question I had is when you describe the pickup windows and uh you know the three Windows that'll be there and the longest one you know cars could queue up for a little longer um as opposed to um and this might be you know tag teaming and answering the question the dryve vi over there is I believe uh 20 ft wide is that correct hold on a sec that's correct yeah so it's your opinion in terms of if those parking spaces which are angled if they are occupied and there is a queue over there waiting at the third window uh there would be enough space for additional cars to kind of travel through and move about yes okay yeah um thank you um in terms of the uh the parking analysis that was done um to clarify uh because I believe and I think uh the CME uh review letter did question that and I'm referring to CME review letter March 19th 2024 as to the number of seats because I believe on the um yeah we'll we'll go with one of the num we'll go with 60 I know you indicated that there was somewhere where you saw 57 56 but we went with 60 as part of the analysis 60 is the seat and there was no outdoor seating uh being proposed out seating proposed now okay um so um the 60 seat analysis and uh going back to your review of traffic analysis where you came up with the ratio of um I believe uh 6.4 spaces per thousand square fet which results to 29 stalls now because you did study this McDonald's as its own independent you know restaurant and usually typically restaurants the parking ratios are by the seats does that change the number of parking stalls um requirement no so if I were to look at it by seats McDonald's typically looks to uh get one stall for every two to three seats so one for every two would be 30 where where 29 is what I calculated one for every three would be 20 so they they would want 20 to 30 um so I I feel good with the the 29 okay and uh in the same way now that you know as we all go to McDonald's and there are different versions and I think you did um testify to you know covid has brought these where people kind of Park and wait for their order and come in um does that take into effect the parking ratio like how many cars are you expecting waiting in those parking spaces and taking the in-house seating parking spaces in the property so when when we when we observed parking at those other area McDonalds we counted all the cars that were parked including um whether it was like an Uber e driver a mobile pickup or just anyone who was parked so it does take that into account and just and just to fully answer me because question on that the the subsequent data that you collected from the existing McDonald's located on site already after Co had been place so those CH that's correct those changes would have been implemented in those facilities correct okay thank you um for a minute we'll stay on parking um I believe the testimony is that there's going to be shared parking Arrangement between the bigger lot as well as you know lot a and and uh it it is believed that some of the employee parking might be parking in the larger lot um is that a typical um scenario in a shopping center scenario would there be designated spaces or you're just keeping it you know as part of employees uh or the management of McDonald's deciding that don't occupy the spaces around the McDonald's and I mean I think that I think that's a board decision I think we the applicant would respect whatever the board felt was appropriate in that in that regard usually the the any retail right or restaurant wants the customer's parking close and the employees parking further so can't hear you I said normally in in every retail or restaurant scenario the owner wants or the operator wants the customers parking closer for convenience and the the employees who are you know low lower turnover because they're there for longer periods of time to park further away if the board felt that they wanted us to sign those spaces we'd be happy to to do that that would that wouldn't be an issue but I think organically to answer your question it occurs like that but we'd be happy to sign it if the board felt that was appropriate okay thank you um Mr Mna I think I'll start with you on a couple of parking questions um the testimony is um sorry I'm trying to flip my pages um sorry um that there'll be a t toal of 586 spaces being provided right or technically 581 actual parking spaces with five bonus EV spaces is that correct correct um and uh for the board's um um notification could you identify where those five EV spaces would be and why did you choose that area as the location was there yes certainly so the proposed five EV spaces there would be four proposed near the uh Northeastern Corner um Kyle we're back on A3 right correct yeah referring to A3 on the northeastern corner of the lot in front of uh Stop and Shop those would be four of the five spaces the fifth space would be proposed on the um McDonald's lot near the uh be the southeast corner of that lot U the reason for the distribution is that we are required to distribute those spaces amongst the Lots in order to conform with the ordinance requirement the locations chosen um have to do with convenience of the the location of the the actual EV space itself and also trying to plan for the the infrastructure that may be associated with those spaces so um depending on the the uh demands and the type of EV space that is installed there may need to be a Transformer or a pole box or something like that so we tried to select a space where there's a little bit of room on the perimeter of the uh area rounding surrounding those spaces understood and uh for clarification purposes you're only providing EV spaces for the spaces you're proposing right the 45 and not the overall 581 I just want to clarify that's why the number is just five instead of 4 % of whatever the 581 would have been is um well I'm not sure I understand the question so the 45 new spaces that you're proposing for the larger shopping center and the 29 that you're proposing for the McDonald's the EV calculation is only based on those spaces and not understood correct so the the analysis was done based on the fact that we're really only proposing lot a so our interpretation was that the EV space was required for lot a for the proposed use we're providing the additional four spaces on law 27.0 one just as an amenity um to complement and improve the the uh Center okay um and uh would you be willing to uh because none of these are Ada spaces is it possible to make one of these Ada spaces we we did anticipate that um the space on the McDonald's lot in one of the four spaces on lot 27.1 could be designed as an accessible EV space there's uh some extra room for striping uh for for to accommodate that but if you're referring to you'd want to relocate one of them that's something we could review to see if there'd be an appropriate space to relocate again we have to provide clearances for the actual charger themselves and make some a combinations but that's something we could certainly review uh review and take a look at okay um just because you know none of these are EV and I know you have two handicap spaces that are closer to the McDonald's but we're Happ disc we're happy to work with you and the board engineer on that if if you wanted us to do that all right thank you um now going back to the variances and I'll go try to go in order uh but I can't promise that um one is I know you talked about the buffer variances for the lot a the McDonald's lot that's what I'm talking about right now the the other variance also would be the buffer and the birming right cuz that's not being provided uh correct okay um in terms of signage and uh I'm only talking about the wall signs right now for this minute uh I do want to confirm because uh we did have a question in our review letter regarding the square footage of the signs I believe uh we did calculate it um you know um it was noted that it is within the uh within the number however when we measured the signs they were 14 and 33 Square ft is that I would have to double check the the signage details may just be for illustration purposes only but the proposed sign dimensions are five square feet for each of the M logo uh okay uh signs and then 25 Square ft for the McDonald's uh sign so the testimony tonight is that um or none of these will exceed the 40 square ft requirement correct okay um and the variance for the number of spaces uh number of uh required wall signs still is being requested correct M Excuse me while you're on signs can you clarify I'm going to that one the next so now uh we can talk about the uh the menu signs and uh you know if you could just overall provide as to where those signs are located how many are located and we can talk about uh whether they permitted and under what umbrella would they be permitted so could you just for the board just talk about where those menu boards are located how many I know there are a couple of Direction signs the square footage of that if you can just very quickly so there's well I guess just to start for the signs in the building just to clarify so again referring to A3 three um there's a 5qu ft um one of the 5T signs located on the North uh east corner on the north side of the building and then there are uh there's the McDonald's 25 squ foot sign on the south side of the building and then the final uh 5 foot sign is on the the Eastern uh side of the building as well so just to clarify that and then there are the menu boards there would be one per Drive through Lane um it's it's difficult to make out on the exhibit that we have at the scale but there would be one per drive-through Lane uh basically right before the the Dual Lanes merge into a single Lane near that uh North uh West corner of the building and then there would be the pre-order uh board as well and which way just a fully answer it Kyle which way do they face the menu board signs so they aren't on they are on an angle that faces basically towards the driver as they approach so it'd be uh in that Northern Direction facing to the north okay and there is the the welcome Gateway sign also right the one that kind of highlights the it's like a clearance bar yeah so um and overall the larger menu board is about what 20 square ft and the smaller menu board is about 9 sare feet right I'm referring to sheet c904 correct yeah um so typically in uh in NC Zone freestanding signs are uh would not be permitted but again this is a use variance so the the the signs kind of are subsumed within with the type of use that would be there so that would fall under the umbrella of the use that is being proposed but it is classif as a sign yes so those two variances need to be added on top of whatever else they're doing well it's subsumed with the use because this use requires those menu boards it's kind of subsumed in the type of use that they are proposing and Mr chairman I because it wasn't in the review letter in terms of whether these required variances or not and they don't advertise the way that they I mean they obviously provide information regarding what can be ordered right but they don't have the McDonald's name or logo we'll take a look from a planning standpoint as to whether we think we need the relief from it and we'll we'll reach out to me can see if we so the drive-thru sign's not going to have an m on top of it right right so no no not on top it doesn't matter I don't mean on top as part of the board where it's permanently there and then the menu would scroll underneath it yeah the the the menu board and we'll get further clarification again it wasn't brought up so I apologize I'll get clarification on this but it does not look like the the M or the McDonald's sign is on the menu board um on the it is on the directional um there is an m on the directional in the um in the uh and but the others do not have it so I I'll clarify that with your planner to make sure we're on the same page uh before the next meeting on that issue okay sorry M so that's signage um Mna uh could you talk about the fencing um along the the post rail that's there is no new fencing being proposed and I know one of the questions we had raised about the existing fencing along primeville Road it's height and uh I I believe clarification was provided that that might be modified I just want to make on record that that is going to be modified or correct so there's an existing 4ft tall post and rail fence that would be uh a variance or or waiver so we are proposing to modify that reduce the height to three feet to bring that into compliance okay no prop proposed new fence just modification all right um believe you have uh provided this um um in terms of um the impervious coverage and I know you did testify about the overall impervious coverage as well as the variants you're seeking for lot a but what about the the larger lot I believe it's 27.1 what's happening to its um impervious coverage so the impervious coverage would still be not in compliance but it would be reduced so the proposed uh impervious cover value for lot 27.0 is 88.1 2% so it is still a reduction but it's still not in conformance with the 60% corre yeah I think I think think on that one we're I think the right thing to do conservatively is to ask for the variance because we're creating a new lot but to your point in that area of the shopping center which I think is what you were trying to indicate it is still being the green space is being added and it's it's a reduction yeah yeah but just to clarify the records that would be a c i I agree with that yes yeah um that was the question you did testify regarding the parking and the lighting um oh um in in landscaping again referring to the CME uh memo March 19th um we had made some comments on type of plantings is there anything in that that you uh uh are not willing to comply with or work with us on that or is that something um you would be willing to work with our Landscaping department on that we're willing to work with your landscape Department okay to accommodate um Mr chairman thank you uh that's all I have for now but I do if something pops in my mind I cannot guarantee not a problem thank you we're going to switch over to you Mo thank you Mr chairman um let's see uh St on the traffic bear with me with regard to the Gap study um was that based on that that's for the entrance way that you provided to the county um was that based on the current or is that based on the proposed uh turning so the uh so for the Gap I apologize the the Gap study um we're taking a look at the gaps in traffic in the traffic flow on primeville and then we're seeing if those gaps if there's enough of them to accommodate the uh the amount of traffic we're projecting in the future with the project so so it's a little both so I'm you're taking into account the proposed traffic generated by the McDonald's into that Gap study and the level of service does not change at that intersection at the intersection of primeville and the site driveway primeville and the site driveway corre the well the level of service we found was was a level of service F and then we conducted the Gap study which confirmed that we'd actually have acceptable operation is that Gap study also take into account um cars heading north on Pineville making left turns into the site which would affect the Gap uh yes yes you mentioned along the way that you're proposing flexible delineators along the access driveway yes that's not on the plans but um in discussion with the project team we thought they would they would help prevent uh someone errant turning left or attempting to turn left to go towards the m Donald's or Well Fargo and do you find that these delineators are hit by vehicles um and how often I I couldn't tell you how often they they're flexible delineators so they're they're installed in such a way that they are not rigid so they're not damaging Vehicles when they're if they're if they are hit and who will be maintaining these deline the the developer the developer is going to maintain the the site and that's part of the uh I have a concern with the uh safety of having those delineators in the the middle of the road so to speak um I would ask that that I would like to review something being provided uh prior to as well as for police to take a look at that because I believe that's putting a uh creating a hazard uh especially right at the entrance way um with regard to you're talking about the it and the number of trips you indicated on a Saturday I believe 120 trips for the drive-thru uh for a lunch hour for the peak hour lunch uh 122 122 12 22 customers so 22 customers so two 244 trips correct um how long does it take to place an order and serve each customer you you you talked about order time and how it could take longer depending on who's in the vehicle um the number of people in the vehicle what is the average order time so just just I'll let Paul answer but I was also just in a at a future meeting going to have the operator also go through that as well so I just wanted to let you know we're also going to have testimony on that too well I think I'd like to hear an answer on this from your traffic engineer who testified as to the queuing the amount of queuing that the psych can handle and if there's 122 vehicles coming in in that hour I think there's a direct impact on the queuing based on how long it takes to do an order well I I don't agree with you on that the the um the amount of time it takes so it takes about um a minute for somebody to place their order it takes about 30 seconds for them to pay for their order and about 30 seconds to uh pick up their order that's like on average right and then you have the travel time between the ordering point and and these other points um what what we did was we observed actual McDonald's restaurants um we observed the the the cu's that formed and we counted the q's so we're we're monitoring the length of Q um there it's a very complex calcul ation uh to go from the number of people who are making orders and how long it takes to get your order filled and then to jump to well how long is that queue going to be because the the way queuing Theory works and you know the arrival rate this the the processing service rate all those things um so my opinion observing an actual McDonald's is is um gives you empirical evidence uh which you you wouldn't necessarily be able to calculate okay thank you um you mentioned pedestrian push buttons um near the near the intersection I believe uh are you proposing intersection improvements at Pineville and Prospect Plains uh we are I in our report we recommended high visibility crosswalks um in terms of the signal equipment we did we did inspect the signal equipment obtained the uh signal plans and uh we found that all the all the sort of latest generation pedestrian safety features are there including push buttons so you're not re recommending any improvements or you are recommending Improvement just the the pavement markings mentioned just the pavement markings high visibility crosswalks I'm sorry going back to the to the Gap studies and your well and your traffic counts you said they were done in 2021 or 2023 I miss well we we did um different things at different periods the the 20 2021 was when we did the original um turning movement counts uh and parking study and then so I'm just going to jump in there so so did that when you did it in 2021 or whenever you did do these uh turnning movement counts did that take into account the existing uh patterns on Pineville Road because I know the county had redone the striping and the intersection out there at some point I don't don't recall what year but somewhat recently um did that so do that did that take into account the way the current pattern is today out there um or or was it done with the current striping in place I I should say it that way the current striping was in place the Gap study was done more recently for the revised report okay thank you see here with me I forgive me for bouncing around going to go back to the 122 um drive-thru customers at a peak hour um that's that's 122 customers total it's not not all drive-thru it's not all drive-thru okay I'm sorry but and based on that you indicated I believe 50% would be pass by trips and another 50 or 60 I'm not sure if that was percentage or or individual units that would use the other retail stores the 50 to 60 is not a percentage it's a number of users who would use the the other retail stores and therefore would be considered as an external trip an internal internally captured trip so so with the shopping center you you spoke of it utilizing a a shopping center analysis but this is a fast food restaurant as opposed to a just a sitdown restaurant without the drive-thru how does that impact the um that 50 to 60 uh people using the other retails since it's can you mostly driveth through I well let me back up okay rephrase that um the percentage of the 122 trips what percentage is drive-thru versus sit down well it varies from restaurant to restaurant but I I would guess 70 to 75% would be would be drive-through so now being 75% how does how does that impact your um numbers of 50 to 60 would be using other retails if they're doing if they're coming into to just use the drive-thru they're not coming from another store or walking to it to the other retailers my personal experience is that I you you know will go to a shopping center and um buy some food in the grocery store and then I'll go to through a drive-thru that might be in the same shopping center um because I want something to eat immediately so it it does it doesn't make a difference is the answer okay with regard to site distances you said all the site distances are appropriate um with the parking layout and the proximity of the parking stalls to the entranceway when you enter the site and you make the right into the McDonald's you have parking stalls immediately on your right have proposal Landscaping on the island it's a hairpin turn um I I see a conflict there with uh Vehicles entering and line of sight are you saying you do not see a conflict or a line of sight concern there well but my I had previously stated that the vehicles making that maneuver would be slowing down to 7 something miles per hour so I I don't see a conflict there but okay maybe the Landscaping could be Revisited the two uh the the the Stalls that are immediately adjacent there I believe are pull forward spots the two the first two stalls on the right is that correct yeah they're they're designated that way right now um we we had discussed having the pull forward stalls um along the I'm sorry I can't hear you we had discussed internally having the pull forward stalls along the roow angled parking that's right opposite the drive-thru pickup okay and the mobile the mobile parking stalls or the mobile not sure what you call them Mobile store St stalls forgive me mobile order pickup next to the handicap uh you have to mobile pickup spots yes as far as the trips on I'll say those four spots with cars maneuvering in and out of the mobile spots as well as the pull forward spot do you do you agree that there would be more movements in and out of those spaces as opposed to the other parking stalls um po potentially so my concerns are you have mobile parking stalls backing out you have full forward stalls backing out you have cars entering the site and you have all the cars who have already entered the site uh or entered the driveth through uh leaving uh the site all coming to that intersection right at that entrance as well as you have employees coming out to serve to pull forward spaces to deliver their food so I I don't see I I don't see the benefit there or I see a safety concern there I I think we could work on relocating those those uh pull forward stalls and the mobile pickup stalls and and additionally based on your peak hours you would have um I believe another 200 you'd have 240 Vehicles going through there in that peak hour not not necessarily some customers will um some customers will not be parking immediately adjacent to the McDonald and we'll walk over uh and some of the customers are not going through the drive-thru and so I I I don't think it would it would be that F count okay well then I think we disagree on that one um the I'll call it the second entrance to McDonald's when you come down the main Access Road into the shopping center and you get to the stop sign and then you you make a right and then another immediate right into McDonald's um is that an adequate turning radius uh to make the right turn and then pull directly into the McDonald's parking lot you see it at the four-way stop you'd make a right so from a westbound movement to an eastbound movement correct hold on let me grip my scale you spoke about the radiuses on the entrance Drive the first one but not that one yeah there's there's sufficient space for you a passenger car u-turning there okay um going back to your traffic study um parking areas I believe it's a through D we've had a total of 187 parking stalls indicated that the peak in those three were 65 stalls I believe it was based on on your traffic report and based on my numbers you're taking away10 spaces in that area so reducing that that 87 significantly down to uh I came up quickly to about 67 parking stalls so how how does that adequately serve those existing um commercial businesses in the immediately adjacent to parking stall parking areas a through D so the the parking demand in a shopping center is is somewhat fluid um as I said some some people going to the McDonald's aren't going to be parking directly adjacent to the McDonald's um other people may park near the McDonald's to go somewhere else so I I think when we look at the total Supply that um some of the demand may may be shifted a little bit um One Way or Another the employee parking you mentioned employee parking and I think the indicated about if the board wanted to sign employee parking but I believe you show some employee parking on the plan in the top and Shop area and and who are who is that parking for employees of where McDonald's Stop and Shop or the other retailers so referring back to exhibit a A3 we do have um a few areas that on the site plan that were submitted were uh delineated as employee parking so the first would be on law 27.0 one near the uh southwest corner um there was a comment uh or a feedback provided that there was concern about uh how beneficial or how practical some of the spaces along that Eastern edge of Stop and Shop were so we had agreed to um uh identify a portion of those spaces as employee only the intent would be to uh be employees for a Stop and Shop or other uh retail establishments in that area to try and free up other parking for uh customers within the parking field while we're on the sub subject there also were a total of five employee parking spaces proposed on and adjacent to lot a and again the intent of this was to try and mitigate some of the potential conflicts that were identified um by uh just previously that we were discussing so near that northeast corner of um the proposed McDonald's lot we had agreed to stripe uh three spaces for employees only to try and mitigate any potential conflict caused by uh Vehicles pulling out of those spaces potentially conflicting with a vehicle sitting at the stop at the Stop Bar there so um lower turnover employee vehicle uh spaces were are proposed there and then similarly the two spaces uh nearest uh the McDonald's lot uh the Southeastern corner of the Wells Fargo lot um would also be uh are currently proposed to be striped or signed as employee only for WS Fargo again same intent to mitigate potential conflict between sitting at the stop bar um intersection there and uh turnover vehicles in those parking spaces so again I think we're we're willing to work with the board and the board professionals on the location of these spaces but this is what we had proposed to try and address some of the concern for potential vehicle complex thank you for clarifying that so let's go back um and I guess uh Kyle I think you spoke about the access Entrance Drive and and how it was improved um can you um I think you indicated that it was a right in only and that was the Improvement on the access Drive making a right in from rinville the right turn in is there any other Improvement other than that it's now a right in only uh the improvements were really related to the circulation and try to mitigate the conflicts there so so the Improvement is that it would be limited to a right turn uh only movement so you're eliminating um the movement out and then a left in as well so that is the Improvement um besides that just the channelization striping and uh as was indicated potential flexible um delineators just to try and um minimize the type of movements out that driveway so you're saying that it that it's an improvement given the existing traffic that comes in and out of the current entrance and makes a right turn in or a left turn out of that area um The increased traffic from the McDonald's and making that a right in only is is still an improvement I would I would defer to Paul regarding the volume of traffic but geometrically I think it is an improvement because we're eliminating conflicts and it's the same maneuver that's happening today it's actually um a very slight increase um in actual separation between the drive-thru and the road but we're limited we're eliminating multiple complect by making it right in only I understand the geometrics of it and but there is an inreasing the traffic volumes uh so how does that play in all so the the volumes that are coming into that driveway uh aren't going to be conflicting with another movement so um you you don't have the left turns Crossing uh the driveway to come into um what's now the Wells Fargo area you don't have vehicles coming from that area to get into the driveway so there's a a net um there's an a elimination of points of conflict for for those movements entering the site so it is an improvement is what you're yeah it's safer it's it's safer you know whether there's a lot of traffic or not as much traffic so um moving into your site then at that entrance where I spoke of before where you have the conflicts of cars entering cars leaving a drive-thru cars backing out of the the mobile and and pull forward spots as well as the regular parking stalls um it would appear that that conflict has now just been moved internally into your site and you've created an an area of conflict how can we how can you relieve that well in that area the McDonald's is circulating counterclockwise first of all do you agree with that I mean if if you don't agree with that then explain I would explain why first if if you don't I I don't agree uh so we are implementing a one-way counter counterclockwise flow um uh counterclockwise one-way flow is um sort of standard for for most past food uh the when you have oneway flow the uh driver's expectations the amount of checking they need to do in terms of where they're going and and uh where the points of conflict are are reduced so it it operates safer so um we have a point to the the north of that that location where as you mentioned we have cars that are coming out of the drive-thru they're stop controlled uh we have the the parking movements and it's it's really not unlike um many many many McDonald's restaurants the the the majority of McDonald's restaurants that I work on are one way counter clockwise flow around a building um with angled parking uh without uh separate parking fields or separate aisles and that's that's the way they T they operate and does the additional queuing area that you have on this site play play a role in your analysis on that well that that creates that's a a feature that makes it even more safe because we're not worried about the queue extending out of of the drive-thru and how about the there's no bypass lane for the drive-thru now in the examples of the McDonald's that you provided in your study they all had the bypass lane some of them do have a bypass lane this this they don't all have bypass lane in this site we don't have a bypass lane proposed the the entrance ways uh particularly the one on Prospect planes and the driveway um Ingress egress there uh how was that entrance way being Improvement being improved um you provided some crash information in your um in your report as well as uh I think the uh the police provided a report that talked about some crash data um how is that in Ingress egress being improved or how can it be improved to uh with the anticipated increase in traffic for the McDonald's uh well the Improvement that we have proposed at this time is the the sidewalk connection um to uh get pedestrians safely onto the site um I I don't have the police reports uh that the police letter refers to which I'll need to review in order to determine if there's uh other improvements that are are warranted or would help with the the particular crash patterns you say based on the crash data in your traffic report there's no improvements warranted for that intersection in the for for the ESS for our report we were looking at the intersection of prospect Plains Road and and primeville Road uh specifically with a focus on pedestrian safety to determine if there's a a pedestrian safety issue unless I misheard you you provided crash summary in your report for Prospect planes and the East site driveway that's what I'm looking at okay I'll have to take a look at that and see what improvements can be done to the drive as not just the sidewalk um you're with me Mr jerman okay take your time just as he's as he's looking for for something can I just ask Paul follow up to one of the questions that that were're asked if that's okay that's fine what what we're going to do is we're going to have Mark finish up the stenographer needs a few minute break for her fingers going for the last two hours so you know we have to be courteous to her as well so we'll give her a few minutes stretch your fingers you want to do that next no I want Mark to finish it just just one followup to what you asked just before was that Paul agreed we'd look at the at the crash data that was was was noted but just because Prospect Plains Road is also under County jurisdiction is that correct that's correct did the county recommend any improvements at that driveway um no no okay but we we we'll still take a look at where you asked us to right under the heading that you indicated early on that you're doing improvements to the entire site to improve the entire site um that that's certainly an area to look at thanks um the um entrance the entrance to McDonald's uh cars parking on the southern side of the building near the drive-throughs how are they how are they entering the building where are they walking to to enter the building uh the the entrance to the building itself is on the the uh uh easterly forade so they're walking along the along the drive aisle and Crossing the the aisle to get to the the sidewalk so the entrance is on the Eastern side the opposite side of the building that what you said I'm sorry no it's it's on the Eastern side the meaning the the short side the short side along oh I'm sorry yes stand corrected the Eastern side yeah the the gotcha North is rotated on the plane okay you uh in your report you talked about observed pedestrian Crossings at the intersection yes of Pineville and Prospect ples um could you do a a study on what the proposed pedestrian Crossings might be um with the McDonald's here and the pedestrian traffic that would be generated through that intersection um I'm not sure what type of study you mean we did do um an analysis of The Pedestrian safety and pedestrian safety features at at the intersection are are you talking about like a a calculation of pedestrian level of service well well you you you didn't observe number of Crossings as part of your study you provided that um and and uh there's nothing as proposed like typically where your traffic generation you have existing and you have what it would be um you know when you build um given the proximity of the school uh the high school right down Street and and the Middle School um do you see an impact uh with an increase in pedestrian traffic through that intersection particularly from the schools I think there would be additional pedestrian traffic but I I don't think there'd be any impact the so my concern would be if if the intersection would warrant some Improvement whether it's a longer a time a timing adjustment on The Pedestrian Crossing or or or signal adjustment we that's where I'm coming from we reviewed The Pedestrian Crossing intervals um with the latest uh mutcd manual on uniform traffic control devices um recommendations for crossing speed and and we we found that there were no um there were no deficiencies the only additional pedestrian Improvement that we we saw might be warranted is uh high visibility crosswalks okay um Mr chairman I you know I still have my whole report to go through I I don't know if you wanted to take a break and maybe we're gonna do we we're gonna take we're gonna we're GNA take a few minutes for the stenographer we're going to come back really 5 minutes 9:30 we will wrap up by 11:00 okay we're going to get the public I as I mentioned before this will be going to another meeting so don't be surprised when we say the meeting is ajour tonight and we'll tell you when it'll be on the calendar again before you walk at it this will not be completed tonight there again there's a lot of testimony there's a lot of still review from our professionals that need to go through there's your questions there's the board's questions so this is not a cut and dry application so we're going to take 5 minutes and we'll reconvene at 9:30 e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e you going to reconvene there'll be another one I did the same thing uh where your count where's your Council Council we're going to go to a public portion at this point okay questions okay we're going to jump the gun we're going to go open it up to the public portion everybody stand up at the mic when you get up front I need a motion okay what we're going to do is we're going to do one at a time please okay you're going to follow this gentleman's Direction now okay I'm going to swear everybody in right before they ask questions or or offer comments just so everybody's on the same page okay so I'm going to swear you in you're going to give us your name spell your last name and give us your address please so if you could raise your right hand you swear that any testimony you provide is the truth all truth and nothing but the truth I do you can state your name spell your last name and give us your address please Allan Schwarz 19 London Drive s c w r TZ thanks sir Mr SW you have the floor thank you Mr chairman in your application you talked about the fact that this is going to be a smaller McDonald's and that the the basic footprint of side is also smaller uh you very nicely told us about where the containers are going to be located for the garbage but you have not talked about what's going to happen with the uh the grease removal what time these vehicles are going to be these big trucks are going to be coming onto the property to remove the grease and the garbage and how your applicant is going to be controlling the insects the rodents and the Vermin on on the site so we on the on the issue with the grease trap I'm going to have the operator testify specifically on how the operations go so we can you can hold that question for that on on on the on the rodent issue we're subject to Health Department issues like every other business in any municipality so we have to comply with those and then every townships may be a little bit different but whatever the Township's protocol is for Health Department approval we have to get that before we can open and you have to maintain those requirements uh you still didn't answer the question about the con because of the configuration of the property and we both we all understand that it's an undersized property for a location like this what's under what's under sized the site a is not your typical McDonald's siiz location we you can't fit this property there but you already indicated because of that that the deliveries are not going to be coming during operating hours well the garbage not not also because those huge trucks not be coming on the property during operating hours I'll have the um the the um operator testify to that but they usually can control when the garbage pickups can come because because I would like to think that yeah yeah I understand you want them done that the traffic traffic engineer would agree that that would be a conflict on on that site no agreed so I think it like we said with the like I said in my opening and and there'll be test pure testimony on that from the from the operator that the um the deliveries would come when the store is closed correct yeah yeah and we're happy to work with the board and the public on the garbage pickup as well that'll be private Haller controlled by the operator thank you sure my name is Sher fredman if I could swear you miss fredman real quick if you could raise your right hand you swear any testimony going to provide us the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes okay now if you could give us your name and your address and spell your last name my name is Sher fredman F re d m n I live at six Rothwell Drive in Monroe Township okay so it's a two-parter but the first part's very quick if I'm driving north on Pineville Road how am I getting into this site I am in front the traffic light is in front of me at the intersection I'm coming north on pinville how do I get into the site you so let me clarify this because in during the break somebody asked about it um when we're talking about when we said no left turn we mean somebody who's driving in the driveway heading away from Stop and Shop towards pinville no left turn towards the McDonald's going northbound on Pineville you'd be able to turn left at that driveway like you do today thank you that was unclear to me okay it took almost 3 hours for us to get to the part about the safety of the kids that worries me very much site improvements including EV Chargers improved traffic flow and added Shrubbery all great all fabulous all wonderful but what about the elephant in the room we all know that McDonald's is an attraction to young people having a middle school and a high school within walking distance but across a busy roadway is Wreckless for our children why not put the McDonald's on the same side of the road as the two schools do I get an answer we're not the developers they are that's not may I have an answer that's not the proposal the developer is is owns the shopping center they're putting the McDonald's there that that that's not the proposal regardless of the safety of our children thank you sir if I could read yes you can raise your right hand do you swear testimony going to provide us a truth all truth and nothing but truth I do if you can state your name spell your last name Joe atanasio t a n a s i o address 21 Wellington Place Monroe thank you sir in the letter sent to Residents paragraph 5 mentions a state ordinance that speaks to the land use the proposed fast food restaurant is not a permitted land use in this Zone according to section 70 no variance or other relief may be granted under the terms of the section on including a variance or other relief involving an inherently beneficial use without showing that such a variance or other relief can be granted without substantial detriment to the public good and will not substantially impair the intent and purpose of the Zone I don't believe your presentation has shown any beneficial loose however seeking and defending 21 variances in my opinion show substantial detriment to the public good and quality of life and the use VAR should not be granted I'm not anti- McDonald's I'm not anti- business I'm antioc the Concordia parking lot is a challenge at best adding a 4,400 ft building is like in the words of Alice cramden stuffing 5 lbs of baloney in a 2B bag this will increase the possibility of accidents according to the police report since 2019 there have been 175 crashes either in that parking lot or at the egress this makes no sense people okay and Mr chairman members of the zoning board if this is allowed to continue okay the residents of this community Community are not going to blame McDonald's it's going to go towards the administration from the top down thank you very [Applause] much if you could raise your right hand you were any testimony going to provide us the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes if you can state your name spell your last name and give us your address please it's Debbie Harvin h a r b a t k i n and I live at 69b winre okay I have a three-parter so please bear with me um first of all did all the books that you referenced take into account the average age of the people in this area versus every other McDonald's that you propose uh no there's not a they're they're not demographically broken down way do you agree that we have a unique situation here and I would hope that the whole board degree is that we have a unique situation here when we have what 3500 roughly homes surrounding this property of senior citizens myself included and I'm not 65 but myself included compareed you know being placed in a situation with high school and and middle school students walking driving inexperience too experienced unable to drive it seems like all of these statistics sticks don't apply to this area okay sorry all right my question to you is how many aspects of this project are not asking for variances that's that's that's impossible that's impossible to quantify but you can quantify which ones need variances right because a sub a large portion of the project complies with the ordinances but I couldn't qualify everything that that complies because a ton complies okay the public is should have access to that information it's all on the plants I mean anyone can do the average citizen I I understand that but I'm just saying that in terms of compliance a lot of the project complies with many aspects of of the ordinance the only ones that we typically identify because we have to put on a standard of proof for them are the variances and wavers but our planner is at some point is going to testify go through the whole you know variance analysis with respect to the D variance and C variances but a large portion of the project does comply as well it seems like mostly everything that's been presented are variances we ask to see what parts are not and if it has to be at a future meeting that's fine but we would like to know what actually is not a variant with this project it's hard and I understand it's a good question I just it's hard for me to say in Council can can maybe chime in it's hard for for for me to have the engineer because it's already a long process as you could see to say oh we comply with X we comply with Y and just keep going through it it would be very honorous to to do that so we focus on the non-compliance to meet our burden of proof that that's how it works my comment to that is it's onerous for all of us to think of the fear that we have of this project so um my next question and and it's part two of what I just asked was originally when they built the Stop and Shop or or Concordia whatever you want to call it there were ordinances put in place prohibiting a fast food restaurant I ask you what has changed from then to today besides an explosion of population that would actually now warrant an ordinance on that all right so so again what what we'll do as part of this process is the witness can can you speak into the M I'm sorry I'm sorry go ahead sorry so what what the witnesses do in this process right is we'll have our civil engineer our traffic engineer the operator we may have another witness and then our planner will use all that testimony in addition to things raised by issues raised by the public by the board by the professionals and explain the why the site is particularly suited in her opinion our planner's opinion um why the site is particularly suited for this use so we that's why this is a little bit elongated where we have to lay that foundation for her to give her F her conclusion on that issue we have to put all those facts forward so after she gives that opinion you can ask her if you disagree with it or not okay my question again or my request again is that whatever is done the population the uniqueness of the population be put into consideration with all of your plans okay okay thank you okay do you SAR that any testimony going to provide us the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth um ien Carpenter 2 23A Rutland Lane c a r p n t r thanks um several months ago sir you were at Green Brier at Whittingham and I'm sure you remember um the questions about the schools and I know everybody's talking about the schools I don't understand why your proposal did not mention the schools once okay I find it extremely insulting I must tell you that but here's my question okay if you look at the Concordia shopping center you will see most of those people are older you know we have a high school we know we have a junior high school have you done a survey there perhaps to find out what percentage of those kids are going to come to McDonald's for lunch because when you said there's going to be 12 people coming and half of them are people who are shopping in the center I question that number highly because right now you see hardly a teenager there I would I need I need to interject for a minute yes um I understand it's frustrating and I understand you're you're I'm talking too loud I'm sorry I do that I'm I understand it's frustrating and I understand you potentially or possibly don't understand the entire process which is okay that's why we're here we have professionals and everything um unfortunately they're here to present for their building in this location it sounds cruel but I don't want to be mean they don't have to worry about the kids don't don't take it wrong but I do and you what that that's we understand that but this is what we do as a board we collectively understand everyone's concern we take it under advisement when we go to proceed to make a decision or question something but as far as what they need to present to us is strictly the facts based on what they're putting before us it doesn't matter whether the doctor's office up the block this the post office it's all irrelevant they're coming before us for this application this application only in that particular spot so yes we all understand where everything is we all live in Monroe that's how we're on this board and we know what's going on we understand it however we have to pay them the due respect they're entitled to and present everything and we also and in return we'll have have an opportunity to ask these questions as our Professional Engineers started and highlighted on some things but we still have a lot more to do but we wanted to speed up the process by giving everyone in the public a chance to speak so that you're not going to get a direct answer from them because they don't have to answer you just understand they're here for their application here was my question okay you compared it to the one on Route 33 which I think is not a valid comparison do you have a McDonald's that was built within a mile or so of a high school and can you give us some numbers from that as a comparison is that a valid question I'm not a lawyer I'm I'm sorry no I I think that's a valid question it's a legit question thank you I personally can't comment on that and I'm not asking you I'm asking I don't personally know if they have if they're obligated to respond to that okay and again I don't want to take it out of context but they're here in this area another area they're using as as a as a template for the technically the Dual Drive-In Lanes they're not using it as foot traffic as this as that they're only showing how the McDonald's operates again that's why we're here and this is what we do I'm not going to say for a living but this is what we do and we we make our best decisions based on input from the residents what they put forward what our professionals put out and that's how we come to a conclusion the other thing I do want to bring up is truck traffic okay we have a lot of warehouses around here and they essentially stop at the turnpike so many most of them are in Cranberry they stop at the turnpike they get on the turnpike they get off the turnpike they go over there okay if you put a McDonald's over here I am questioning whether those trucks will want to come to our McDonald's and what kind issue safety issue we're going to have with trucks going in and out of that I don't even know if they're allowed to go in and out okay but it's something that has been on my mind and nobody has mentioned it so I am mentioning it and have you s has that been addressed at all possible increase of truck traffic we have a lot of trucks trust me we do there there's no truck parking on the site so they'll park on the side of the road yeah they don't they don't want uh trucks parking on the side of the road they they don't want uh tractor trailers to be served at this location it's not built to or designed to accommodate that okay so are we going to I don't know is there a way we can stop it or that was my other question so thank you very much I apologize if I that's no apology needed I understand it's quite fine thank you good evening ma'am if I could SAR in real quick do you swear any testimony going to Prov v as a truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do okay if you could state your name spell your last name and give us your address please Marsha Forest f o r r ST1 whiteall Road Monroe Township I have a question for the gentleman and a statement to the board the question is what use the mic please what happens if the car capacity in the drivethru is exceeded will that cause Wells Fargo parking lot to be blocked and will it back up traffic entering off Pineville Road during peak hours of both the bank and McDonald's we we've the site's been designed to uh to prevent that from happening because you said you calculated it's a minute per customer at the drive-thru they have to talk really fast to get out french fries or whatever I don't I don't go to McDonald's but I don't see how that can be prevented and I don't agree with your response and I my second is a statement to the commission and it basically reinforces what Joe said I'm sorry that a lot of people have left you can understand why we started at 6:30 and I'm not an attorney and I know an attorney is never supposed to ask a question unless they have an answer but I'm going to ask it anyway do you think that 99% of the people that have been here would vote against this if they had the right to vote and if you pass it they will vote against you thank you thank you yeah that's not the analysis like you swear any testimony going to provide us the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do if you could state your name spell your last name and give us your address please Wayne barouche B u43 winton's way here in Monroe um I'm a retired corporate safety director expert in Risk analysis uh expert expert in Risk mitigation expert in human factors uh we talk about pedestrian traffic around the site do we really think that it's not going to affect people getting hit um we've been living here in Monroe for gee five and a half years and the number of people who I've driven into that shop shopping center behind they'll cut around a pedestrian just to get into the supermarket that much quicker they won't care that somebody is using a crosswalk I'm sorry it's true um parking around the uh the DNT parking around the lucky star the Verizon and the UPS store with traffic with parking from the uh from the uh proposed McDonald's is that going to impinge on their customers parking and are they they going to have to park uh over by the Stop and Shop uh parking area um I'm sorry I don't think that the Traffic Engineers model is accurate I think it's sterile I think it's hypothetical I don't think it represents reality when people are trying to make a left turn from Pineville into the shopping center if you and and maybe I don't understand did you does the current plan does the current proposal res RCT a left turn Northbound from pinville into the shopping center no it doesn't so people are going to make that turn and get broadsided right by tra by traffic coming Southbound on pinville no the no they're not people heading that you can make that Northbound left today people do it yep and there are going to be more people going into that shopping center with your proposed McDonald and a greater risk of this happening more people more incidents and are the people who are visiting the McDonald's going to be driving more aggressively I don't know I don't know their demographics I don't know their behavior I'm just asking um I could go on with these kinds of questions I think you get the gist of of my concerns um uh making oh here we go making the and and a few people have mentioned this make the left on Westbound Prospect planes into the supermarket into the shopping center or making the left bound leaving and heading westbound on Prospect planes it's dangerous and it's going to get worse if we do this I hope you don't thank you thank you very much good evening ma'am if you could raise your right hand do you swear any testimony you're going to provide us the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do okay thank you if you could state your name spell your last name give us your address please Gloria naso HC thank you HC Rothwell Drive Monroe okay so um the proposed um site of the McDonald's is where there are two banks that people use quite a bit um so right now the flow of rainwater in that space hasn't hasn't been a problem and I've never really seen any flooding there so now you're adding a 44 um 4 400 squ foot building which I think certainly will impede the flow of the rainwater um causing you know floods and puddles whatever and you said that your answer to solve this was Shrubbery um so I don't necessarily think that shrubber Shrubbery may be enough and if that isn't enough do you have a backup plan to prevent any kind of flooding Kyle Kyle can you just explain again how the Kyle can you just explain again how the storm water management on this site is going to be improved as a result of this application just very briefly I know you said it before but just explain it again sure so the site today the storm water is channelized it's conveyed and collected by catch basins water flows into the catch Basin goes into the pipes we are reconfiguring the catch basins the proposed building will not impede storm water we're going to design to address that uh conveyance and it's going to be very similar to what's going on the site today except there will be less storm water because there's less impervious cover so less more Grass more landscaped area less water so it's only going to be a benefit and there will be no detrimental impact to the storm water flow on site or offsite okay let's hope so good evening you s any testimony going to provide us the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do if you could state your name sell your last name give us your address please Christine cillo p r i l l o 59 Harwood Road in Monroe majority of my questions or observations really have already been addressed however in respect to the Traffic Engineers um conduction surveys of the other two McDonald's and someone had already said this one is obviously across from a high school and a um and a middle school although that I get what Mr LF said about them not you know that's on the other side to decide but I do think that that would definitely skew the numbers um of what was discussed um like comparatively to the other two because they're not across the street from two schools um that's just my opinion and also um one of the people on the zoning board did ask about a breakfast investigation there was a lunch and a dinner peak time investigation I think that's a bit of an important thing maybe to be taken into account because since their stop and shop opens at 700 the McDonald's opens at 5:30 I don't know what time school starts but I know it's pretty early in the morning so maybe some of those children might be wanting to come across for breakfast too again not that it's a children thing but it will skew the numbers and um my last is more really like a question I've been living here about 4 and a half years and I notice I know it doesn't snow as much as it used to but when it does and when it did a lot the snow went always went into that area where the banks are now so what would happen in that case in the future where would we put all the snow we'll we'll take that under advisement along with the client and we'll when they when we get the further testimony we'll we'll establish that what's going on thank you you're welcome evening sir do you swear any testimony you provide as the truth the whole truth and nothing but truth I do if you can state your name Larry BTO b a r t o LF 65 Harwood Road in Monroe uh a few comments many of my friends and neighbors refer to the stop Ando shopping center as stop and crash and and uh it's not a joke you know we joke about it but it's not a joke and what I was really concerned by when I heard about this four-way stop under the best of circumstances with the best drivers that's always been a problematic is uh thing to deal with when you couple that with seniors senior people driving as well as teenagers uh that's a real problem I feel and uh I think it needs to be considered a four-way stop and if I understand it correctly where it's going to be is Ground Zero where the where right now you it's demolition derby making the left into the shopping center down by the liquor store it's it's pretty tricky right now and I can't imagine how it's going to be be with a four-way stop right now there's one stop sign and good luck with that uh uh I won't one quick comment about high school I know it's it's not Germain of this but 2:15 in the afternoon high school gets out by 2:25 there's 15 to 20 cars on Pineville Road going up toward the shopping center that's a fact and where are they going I'm not sure where they're going but McDonald if McDonald's comes here there'd be 35 cars lined up going up up that way and my last point with all due respect I think this presentation could have be done a little better because it's such a visual presentation I think those displays over there don't do it justice I would I would suggest that your next meeting you have a screen up here so people can see what you're referring to it'll be much more informative thank you thank you he man you for any testimony you're going to provide us the truth the whole truth of nothing but the truth yes I do your name and address ma'am please Joan Hartman h a r t m n 734a Mount Vernon Road has anybody done a police survey to see how many people have gotten their cars hit in that parking lot 17 okay what about the some student got hit about two weeks ago in in that parking lot a car ran into the Wells Fargo Bank did you know about that that that's all indicated in the police report from the traffic officer who did who supplied us with a letter and they'll also have access to that letter as well to read anything that was documented or recorded that is required to be to be observed or to you know for them to say okay thank you good evening ma'am if you can ra your right hand do you s that any testimony you provid us the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes thank you uh Renee hater h a i d r 11 region Drive in Monroe I'm really here to talk to the zoning off people on the zoning Commission because the as the audience kind of reflected when we were listening especially to the traffic study they did not give a lot of credibility to it because the study's based on a day study here or a day study here or a day study here where many of us like myself have lived here for over 30 years and have shopped in that parking lot and know the congestion and issues of navigating it and when I talk to any my this is like the word on the street in the town and anybody that you talk to says that that's a nightmare it doesn't make sense and I'm not going to go to Stop and Shop anymore if that's the case so I really urge you to consider and reiterate the point about they're asking for 23 variances and one is the most important one which is what they can do with the land and it is not currently zoned for you know uh restaurants like McDonald's so I have faith in the Commissioners that they're really going to put the safety of our residents and our quality of life ahead of you know fancy reports and you know pressures uh to be about approving this so I thank you for your service and I thank everybody for staying here this late to uh give their input thank you good even ma'am if you could raise your right hand you swear any testimony you're going to provide us the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth okay yes yes super give us your name and address for the record please Colleen Pace 39a John Paul Jones Drive Concordia um two things I want to address I think Mr Tel Jason tuell was a hardship variance proposed by this owner for this property originally is he claiming any hardship with a variance use the mic please Council so when the when you have to speak out okay so you have two SE types of variances that we're seeking with this project okay so one is the use variance which I explained earlier where we have to we have to prove particular suitability that our planner is going to go through that's not claiming a hardship that's claiming that the site is particularly suited based on special reasons that we have to demonstrate there's also a negative criteria there's no hardship with respect with respect to that the other types of variances are C variances associated with the project Okay C variances can be broken into two categories one is a C1 variance for a hardship where and again it could be because of topography other types of things but what we're basically going for here is what's called a C2 variant which is a um better planning alternative or a site design uh works better than the alternative which our planner will go through so no one's claiming that there's any sort of hardship restriction on on the property okay all right that's one the other thing I'd like to address just quickly has anything been addressed about the the curbside drop offs and Pickups when you come in from Prospect planes there is a UPS Store there's a liquor store a lot of people because they're elderly we're in a senior citizen area they Park curbside in that area to make their deliveries and Pickups because they cannot walk too far so that impedes the flow of traffic also has anybody addressed all the daytime delivery of the liquor store with the huge trucks at the bottom of that Ingress they block traffic every single day there are deliveries from the liquor store and that will impede traffic flow and I know we can't mention the kids supposedly but um Mr traffic man I don't know your name I'm sorry but your study your study T is only based on current use current use like Field of Dreams if you build it they will come there's also a socer field down the block just to let you know so that's why the site was chosen because it's very beneficial to McDonald's understandable not against business just not there that's [Applause] it good evening do you swear any testimony you provide is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes I do super my name is Beth deiro 404 Spotswood Gravel Hill Road in Monroe Township uh my first question is and I have a whole list of them so let's see what I can get done here how many parking spots are there allotted to this McDonald's sure so there are 26 proposed parking spaces in the lot however there is it's a shared parking agreement so there is no restriction it's a shared parking throughout the shopping center but doesn't each unit in that shopping center have to have a required number of parking spots no okay how many of those parking spots are going to be handicapped um well just for McDonald's yes that and Kyle that's regulated and we can't get a we can't we have to comply with that correct correct yeah we're going to comply with the state and federal codes but there's two Ada spaces or accessible spaces proposed within the proposed lat a okay and just to off of that the board planner also asked that we make the some of the EV stations accessible as well correct correct okay and my next question is there will be a major queue on Pineville Road making a a right into the shopping center or a left going Northbound immediately Once you turn in what is there 100 200 feet before the turnoff to go into your McDonald's Wells Fargo area that is going to back up and that's going to back up onto Pineville Road both ways meaning the people on the left aren't going to be able to make the left and people making a right they have to wait for the traffic flow to move and it's not going to move are you planning on wider widening that area to turn into the McDonald's Wells Fargo area um our our analysis doesn't show backups on Pineville the way the way you described well it's a problem now there's backups now people making a right and there's no McDonald's there I mean you did your study during covid nobody was out during covid I was out because I had just retired so I was out riding around in my my car there was nobody else out on the roads nobody in the shopping centers well we when we did the counts uh it was in June of 2021 um so that was that was quite a bit into the covid and we did compare our volumes versus historic data from several years from preo and um we found that the the volumes were where where we would expect them to be okay and um what someone else had also mentioned this shopping center is more busy in the morning hours and you didn't do a traffic study on that because the afternoon by 56 o' the residents from the senior developments are gone I mean that's when I go shopping because it's empty you know I am a senior but um the mornings are very busy there most people go shopping first thing in the morning that's here in Monroe I don't know about other McDonald's but here in Monroe that is going to be a big fact also do you know a noise level of the trucks or Refrigeration running from the McDonald's is we have to comply with all state no noise codes you can't deviate from those D the Department of Environmental Protection for the state regulates noise the the township may also have an ordinance if they do we'd have to comply with it okay so evidently though your plan is not what you we see your blueprint is not exactly 100% done like you don't show the handicap parking you don't show oh that's there that's there on the plan yes I guess I was sitting in the corner with all the the plan shows all the handicap parking and what about the parking for the employees as Kyle can you just reiterate that so everybody's clear oh I heard that you were going to go back to the council the board here to confer with them but well we have like Kyle Kyle stated we have employee parking noted on the plan but if the board felt it needed to be located elsewhere we'd be happy to work with them that's what I said okay so but it's not on the plan right now there is employee parking proposed on the plan but the intent of that proposed parking is to um provide lower turnover spaces in areas where potential conflicts were identified so the idea is put the is to propose those um spaces to mitigate any concern with conflicts not necessarily identifying every spot and restricting every spot aemp he's going to park okay and one last question I heard you say that there was going to be like a third lane for the um the drive-thru and the third I guess spot would be for people who have to wait for orders like if it's a very large order or they just haven't made Whatever item they're asking for um I think the third lane was mentioned by our engineer a bypass lane and the drive-thru no something was mentioned about window I think she's talking the third window third window the third window for people who are waiting for orders okay what if there's two cars waiting for for an order or three cars waiting for an order is there that looks pretty narrow according to your plan for cars to just be sitting there waiting for an order so the cars would not be sitting side by side waiting for an order they would pull up to the third window to wait um and if there's a second car that needs to have a longer weight period or if there's a a very extended weight period anticipated there would be the um signed spaces where cars could pull off too in weit So currently we had proposed those spaces uh along primeville Road however we were just discussing based on feedback from your board engineer we would be willing to uh consider replacing or relocating those spaces uh adjacent to the drive uh drive-thru to to help um address some concerns with conflicts okay thank you and one last thing too the board I want to thank you for holding such a very in informative meeting here tonight also I just want to reiterate what someone else said a screen would be a great idea because when this room fills up you can't see the little print and I was sitting behind so I got up and took a picture of it which was helpful so I could I have to confer with the Counsel on that I think you see if we can get that done I know someone so we'll see if we could work that out but thank you Mr chairman real quick um just your name you know my name Joseph atanasio 21 mingon place okay uh the footprint of the McDonald's in my estimation is going to take up 92 parking spaces okay if I'm wrong please correct me and you're making some additional parking spaces along the Pineville Road Corridor pointing towards pinville Road my question is I went out there with a tape measure and I measured from the wooden fence to the side sidewalk you only got 12 ft you need 20 are you taking the sidewalk away how are you going to build those to build a 10 x 20 parking spot if you only have 12et in length the the uh that aisle and the parking spot's going to be made wider so some of the SP some of the spaces that are at the ends of the aisles today oh so you're taking parking spots away to add parking spots yeah there's a net increase in 13 stalls oh okay great okay last question Mr chairman at the next meeting we're going to have another one are we going to to be allowed a public portion as well I am not closing this public portion it's going to remain open because I have to thank you sir thank you anyone else being anyone else would like to be heard tonight please come forward okay so we're going to leave the public portion open because we will be having a second meeting pertaining to this application so it will not be closed as normal okay so anyone who spoke any new people who come next meeting when it's on the calendar they'll be able to get up and speak as well again May 28th May 28th so please make note of it no they're not going to be Reen noticing so everyone please put on your calendar May 28th we Lo Peter can you just make an announcement like no further notice time dates so everybody's on the same we have too many others to deal with so just just everybody has your walking out just just if I can for the record thank you um this application is going to be continued to the boards May 28th 2024 meeting in this room at at 6:30 p.m. and the applicant is not required to re notice by mail or publication so this is your notice to anyone here that that application is going to be continued to that date you have someone with their hand up if you want to okay this this meeting to deal with in April there was supposed to be other people here tonight that weren't we already have April's meeting already set we cannot bring them in it's going to just cause total chaos in our agenda so next month we're going to get all these other applications done that we have before us and they'll be first on on the agenda for for May thank you okay thank you thank you everybody okay we still have some homework here board members okay uh anyone wishing to speak if you don't mind if you can go outside we still have some work to do thank you okay board members memorialization of application ba-52 47-23 Monro solar one LLC right motion move second second Mr pany Council are you agreeing to the extension of May 28th oh yeah you need an extension that's fine okay they agree yeah if you need a no we we have to just get on the record okay thank you I'm sorry so we have a uh uh M all in favor of ba52 4723 Monro Sola say yes yes yes good okay application ba52 38-23 Stanley ores do I have a motion oh we have a second second Mr it all in favor hi hi good and the last one ba-52 4623 water side Monroe realy move second second all in favor I wonderful we're going to open it to the public portion anyone wishing to be heard on any any particular item please come forward seeing there's none I make a motion to close the public portion approved second second all in favor I any disclo any discussion items no wonderful any correspondence no wonderful motion to adjourn motion to adjourn second second all in favor for