e okay good evening everyone and welcome to a regular scheduled meeting of the Monclair historic preservation commission it is February 22nd 2024 we're a nice intimate group tonight but we are a quorum so um this is a regular meeting of the Montclair historic preservation commission notice has been given in accordance with the open public meetings act by posting a copy of the notice on the first floor of the municipal building and by sending a copy to the Monclair times The Star Ledger and The Herald news we are being broadcast live on Channel 34 Monclair TV and being and we are being remotely streamed on the YouTube channel so fawa would you please call the rooll Kathleen Bennett present Michael Graham here Gerald Sweeny here Nicholas Juliano here Janine Bower here here oh you have to say who's not here sorry uh John remnet been excused he's been excused Stephan Rooney he's been excused and Janice Telly also excused okay all right thank you um the next is approval of the minutes from January 18th 2024 uh chair I noticed in the minutes that you you had recused yourself for the portion of the meeting that you had missed should I do the same for the uh for the approval of these minutes did you I I came in uh during yes during one of the applications well that means we don't have a quorum then to approve them correct but I was going to ask anyway that we put off the minutes to approving till next meeting because I have a number of um uh changes to them and I and I didn't get a chance to send them to fawa and I will do that and I'll send a copy to everybody here I have changes too okay so could you send the changes then to all right and and then we'll send them all to if you copy us on the changes absolutely and then we'll send them all to follow so I would suggest that we wait until our meeting in um what are we March for to uh approve the minutes March 21st if I have non-substantive changes to the portion I was not a part of in i allowed to send those or should I just focus on the portion of the meeting that I attended thank youate the clarity and do you do you have any changes Nick that no okay great so we have three here that we'll be sending to you okay great um moving forward we have resolutions uh the first resolution is to hire architectural Heritage consultant as our historic preservation commission architect everyone's received a copy of that resolution dated February 22nd 2024 I have a motion to approve motion to approve second all in favor I I okay the that resolution's been uh moved the second one is to a resolution to hire strand engineering as historic preservation Commission in engineer that was also written on February 22nd 2024 may I have a motion to approve motion to approve second I second all in favor I and then the third is a resolution to retain soferman Lincoln blumstein and bladder at PC as historic preservation commission attorney with uh Janine Bower uh being present and attending our meetings um may I have a motion to approve motion to approve all in FA second second all in favor I I okay thank you so Janine will'll be seeing you next year as well very efficient um and then we have excuse me resolution and certificate of appropriateness for HPC 20 23-43 our last application of the Year actually of 202 3 and this is um the applic the applicant Jack Jackson Banks our property uh address is 330 336 Bloomfield Avenue uh everyone's had a um an opportunity to read this MH um I have a motion to approve I'll move to approve and second second all in favor I I okay great thank you [Music] okay we are going on to committee reports we have a number of committee reports um minor applications we met on 131 application uh 2023 43 330 to 334 Bloomfield Avenue which we just approved in resolution was approved with conditions application 20242 42 South Park Street um was just approved today right that was finalized today correct with approved with conditions and 2024-25 7 Lorraine Avenue was approved um with conditions the advisory committee met on January 24th we met with the new owner of the Mills building to review the exterior of the Mills building it was uh John Remnant and myself and we re we uh walked around the exterior of the building and the gardens to uh just take really have a look see as to what condition the building was in now uh we were looking at the plans that Paul CIS had provided I think it was 3 years ago so nothing really has has happened since then um and the owner was interested uh to know what when he considers to put together his application what uh the HPC would advise as to what he would be able to do with the exterior of the building so I think that was a very positive meeting on February 1st um there was a meeting at the bond house in Upper Monclair with myself uh a member of the Monclair History Center and a members there were five members of a team of U Montclair University and the bond house is a um is a local landmark and it's really fallen into disrepair since they were able to do a lot of work on it in around 2018 I guess but um the good news is is that they do they do have an architect that has been hired to do a kis report and I put together a uh memorandum for uh the commi the commission um so the you know what it h at the end that the HPC and the monair History Center acknowledge that Montclair University knows and understands the historic nature of the house and property and its significance to the residents of Montclair we hope that the university continues to reach out to both entities as this project takes shape and draws Upon Our reserves in an advisory capacity so they're looking not only to improve the uh to renovate and restore the exterior but also uh they wanted some ideas for possible venues for the house because now it's it's it's empty and it's just as uh they've been using it for storage for the um the uh theater um but and but there's a parking lot unfortunately but at least there's people around so uh it and it everybody knows it's in a prime location so whatever they decide to do what the uh some of the suggestions seemed as though would be very positive so uh that was a positive also a positive uh uh meeting um continuing with Outreach I had to go to mount Hein school to photograph the doors of the um that lead into the auditorium which are by Francis Nelson and while speaking to the principal there uh he told me that they have an architecture Club so I in communication with the teacher of that's in charge of that hoping that we could have some kind of a um uh something to go on with the children at the at the middle school and also uh a possible collaboration with the architecture class uh or Club at the at the high school um I know a couple of people on the committee commission rather were uh participated in the webinar for the substitute materials that was presented by the National Park Service so I think if anybody here was if you could just tell fawa because that would that would go towards next year for our CLG Grant on our education okay um and I thought it I thought it was great it was really interesting yeah and and if they um they do have they have a print out forwa and I was wondering if maybe we could get that on our website okay all right because it might it might it might help people that are looking to do work on their buildings and it might give them some ideas some suggestions so if you uh I think it's what it was was a the brief right brief 16 what's that the the whole brief right brief 16 yes but it was pictures it was like a PowerPoint so I don't know if they have the capability to to do that I saved it onto my computer so if you need it let me there could be a link it could be linked or you could link it yeah that would be I think it would be very beneficial okay and it might help you that okay thank you um chair just in the past um we've been informed of upcoming educational seminars um just wanted to confirm that we would be receiving that information from the planning department or uh in the past uh the board's been informed of um the commission commission's been informed when um educ ational opportunities have come up and uh I just wanted to confirm that the planning department will keep us informed um if those educational opportunities do arise over the next few months yeah I mean um I will I mean no opportunity has arrived until now but if there is any I will for sure uh update you guys appreciate it thank you um and the revision revisions committee met last week at uh 225 lurine Avenue to discuss the revisions um to the original application and that was also a very positive um uh meeting I think uh another pionus uh application but that was great um what I would like to do now is we did discussed last week uh last month rather the uh uh amendments for the demolition ordinance and we had quite a lengthy discussion about that we also discussed it with our attorney so so I would like to move ask uh one of our members to move that uh uh information to go to move as forward yeah I would just like to say I think it provides uh much needed Clarity um in the demo ordinance with respect to partial demolition um and we' made sure that it um is uniform with the total demolition ordinance um so with that I'd like to uh make a motion to approve uh um the amendment to the total demolition ordinance I'll second that all in favor I and I'd just like to thank both Mr Sweeney and Mr Graham for helping on that um because it was it was a lot of work actually and about three months worth of work it's difficult to amend an ordin seemed longer than that um so that'll will go forward then uh fawa um so with having said that I would like to propose two new committees one of which would be the C OFA which is really in tandem with what we did with the Amendments because we realized that the certificate of appropriateness was not um in tandem with the uh with the uh amendments that we that we have uh uh uh recognize and are advising um we also need to talk we also need to add fees into certificate of appropriateness so with that I would like to propose a new committee and I was going to ask Mike and Jerry and myself to be on that because we had worked on the this uh you know amending and I think we have pretty firsthand knowledge about that and and we also had discussed the certificate of appropriateness but okay I would be happy to help okay so that's our new is going to be the certificate of appropriateness application and it will be Jerry myself and Mike and then we also need another committee um to uh examine the HP element of the master plan which is coming up um and we really need to start on that uh like sooner rather than later there had been talk that we were going to do this when Tommy was here so that was probably what six months ago and then the summer came and everything sort of changed up so um at the risk we don't have two members here but is there anyone here that would volunteer now to be on that committee as well well I think chair given that I'm on the um planning board and liais on between the boards I think I have I'm happy to volunteer I don't have a choice I'm happy to volunteer m and I'll be yes you revise the certificate of appropriateness application the form your microph I'm not sure I'm going to have time for that so okay so we'll send out a message to Mr Rin and uh Mr Rooney to see if they'll have uh time for that as okay because it would be nice to have at least three people on it agreed okay um well in that case I'll be on it I will certify it oh wonderful thank you all right so we have three and we could do it virtually like we did I'll renew my which will make it a little easier okay so um yes that was going to be my next Point well did we decide the master plan revision committee was that us again as well yes oh oh okay just wanted it's gonna be Jerry you and I um and then I asked fa to make a copy of the HPC committees from 2023 wondering if people would like to stay on the same committees or if they would like to change and Nick we have to get you on a committee design review sounds good if we if we need an opening for it okay great we need fill an opening so we have John and Mike on that committee with it's it's a committee of can't be four it has to be three do you you're going to be very busy I was um thinking that that is the only substantive like that one uh the education Outreach committee has been somewhat dormant so uh um I mean I'm happy to adjust uh because the CFA revision the master plan revision they're kind of ad hoc and won't be uh long-term committees uh so I would like to remain on the design and Review Committee okay so um well let's put Nick on the design Review Committee and then I'll speak to Steve and and John to see what their availability is cu there cannot be four people on a committee all right oh excuse me we're not in Italy I have the same one for my alarm clock in the morning makes me think I'm waking up somewhere else okay so foa if you put together this committee list with 2024 oh I should ask are everybody else comfortable with remaining on where they've been landed okay last question so minor applications how it has to like if you need to have three because no one else has no one has um volunteered for it are you interested in those that's we do that we do that virtually okay sure all right great we have Nick on that thank you Nick yeah because that that we actually look at applications and and I think you would be good at that okay sounds good all right and then so put Nick on minor applications um and we'll we'll we'll uh speak to Mr Rooney uh because he has also been on he's on education and Outreach I thought he was on revisions anyway we'll speak to him okay so I think think that's all we have for committees um so moving forward the next is public comment is there anyone in the audience that would like to address the HPC on anything concerning preservation no okay with that nobody's at the podium I will close public comment old business we have we do not have old business uh new business is a referral from the Zoning Board of adjustment which is application 2870 five Wheeler Street five Wheeler Street LLC it's a major subdivision approval to subdivide the property the subject property to create two lots okay this subject property at five wheel Street um we are making recommendations to the zoning board for a major site plan approval and subdivision appr subdivision approval to subdivide the subject property to create two lots uh the property is within the proposed uh historic district called named Willer street it's listed as a contributing source and it was included in the 19 intensive level architectural survey the house was built in 1923 and the property description from the report is attached uh it's been referred to us for comment there are the subject properties is in the R2 family residential Zone which has a minimum lot width of requirement of 60 ft there are a few uh variances are being are required there's 11 variances required and four code waivers the um what we are considering uh here at the HPC is how this fits in with the neighborhood um the wheel wheeler Street I don't have the description here um um on on me now but um it was a A working class neighborhood that was uh developed late 19th century many of the houses are um one to two family there's a very close property line and they sit very close to to the street um I do have recommendations from the board of adjustment and um the um which I've I've asked farat to give to all of our commission members so that you may review it as we have comments okay so with that Mr cus and Miss John for the record my name Lis John with and ji on behalf of theer LLC as stated this application is before the zoning board is for a minor subdivision approval clarification to create two lots one lot would ret ex family home which is uh I think referred to in your his El as build oh sorry about that do I need to start over or we're good okay again for the record my name is Lisa John bosta with the law firm K shahinian and Jan tamasi on behalf of the applicant five-wheel LLC uh as was stated by Madam chair this application is pending before the zoning board the applicant is requesting a minor subdivision to create two lots one lot would retain the existing two family home the second lot is slated for development the existing and Paul will go into this in Greater detail the existing three car garage there in surface parking lot uh the garage would be demolished and the new uh 4un Residential Building is proposed uh facing Woodland Avenue this is a corner lot so it's on the corner of of wheeler and Woodland but but the new building would be facing INF fronting on Woodland uh there are a number of variances that are requested connection with that application including a use variant uh we have one witness tonight to go through the presentation which is paulonis with with ponis architecture okay thank you so I'm Paul CIS I'm the principal architect of ponis architecture it's your I'm Paul CIS okay I'm the principal architect of ponis architecture located at 8 Hillside Avenue in Monclair Mr seus I need to swear you please uh do swear or affirm that the testimony you'll provide on the application tonight to the commission will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do so I'd like to distribute copies of the PowerPoint for great and while you're Distributing that I just want to point out that on the memorandum from the planning department it does State it's for a major site plan uh approval so that's wrong I just okay we'll we'll clarify it with the planning department but yeah I'm also going to play van a white tonight too so I'll be up here right thank you so I have several slides that I'd like to go through um starting with this first slide which is a Google Earth satellite view of the subject property so the property is is currently labeled five Wheeler Street it's outlined in Orange on that slide and it's located at the uh Southeast corner of Wheeler Street and Woodland Avenue and it's directly across the street from Glenfield Park which is a county park um as Lisa mentioned that uh an application has been filed to the zoning board for minor site plan approval to subdivide the property into two lots um as you can see the property is L-shaped um and uh we could go to the next slide please so this this slide is is the Monclair zoning map and as was stated this is in the R22 family Zone um next slide please so this slide um shows uh that the property is located within the Wheeler Street potential historic resource so the majority of the buildings in this area were constructed between 1910 and 1929 and as a matter of fact my mother-in-law's family moved to Wheeler Street um at the uh right before 1920 from sis and lived there until the early 1960s so they lived around 30 Wheeler Street or somewhere one of those last few houses on Wheeler Street so that was typical of this neighborhood a lot of families came from Italy or Sicily developed these houses um some of them were were very good Masons the people live there um I read through the Conelly and hickey intensive level survey of this area that was prepared in 2019 and it described basically that there were two categories of architect Ure here there were two to four family uh residences in addition to lowrise walk up apartment buildings uh next slide please so this slide this is a view looking East at the subject property um you can see the pave parking area on the on the left uh there's the on story masonry three-car garage basically to the right of the center in this slide um and then there's five wheel Wheeler Street which is a two-story two family house and according to the records that was built in 1923 uh it has a a brick exterior on the North facade uh the front facade is currently stucco but we found um an older photograph that showed brick on that facade and then the um southernly facade not shown in this photo currently has vinyl siding uh on that on that facade uh next slide please uh this um this slide looks South um along Wheeler Street and you can see the subject property on the left hand side um directly to the left on Woodland Avenue is a building that's known as 27-29 Woodland Avenue uh that building has um 11 11 dwelling units um the um on the right side of this photo the next Corner the next Corner the um Westerly corner of Woodland and and Wheeler is 15-17 Woodland that was constructed in 1925 it's labeled as a key contributing building and that one has four dwelling units it has a masonry exterior it's a pretty simple building form and it has selective details applied to the brick so you'll see some Stone inserts you'll see some coring and some bands uh uh in that brick work um next slide please so this slide uh continues looking to the right or to the south side of Woodland Avenue just to the west of Wheeler Street so 1517 Woodland the Ford dwelling unit building is on the corner it's on the left side of this slide um that's the one that was built in 1925 and then everything to the right is is two two two and a half story buildings um mostly with um uh probably original woodsiding that's been covered with with a different material over the last 40 years uh next slide slide number seven so slide number 7 is the south side of Woodland Avenue but just to the east of Wheeler Street um so 2729 Woodland that's the building that's it's a three-story building it has 11 dwelling units um according to the records up until the 1950s there was a pretty active grocery store on the first floor of that building now now there's an apartment on that first floor um the ground floor on the um west side is coed with stucco but the brick exterior is pretty much intact on the rest of the building and all all of the three sides of the building just that ground floor is seems like the brick was covered with stucco at sometimes in the past uh next slide so this is looking down wheer street down to the south of wheer street with with the subject property five wheer Street on on the left um on the right in this image there's a Fen in parking area uh that serves uh as parking for 1517 Woodland which is the the uh the South West corner of Woodland and Wheeler uh next slide this is a 1934 sandborn map and the interesting thing from this sandborn map is that you could see in 1934 most of these properties were already developed um the two family house at five wheeler um that that's clearly shown as is the existing one story three-car garage um that's currently surrounded by Paving and based on this sandborn map it it could have been surrounded by Paving or gravel back in 1934 um but there was nothing on that except for parking uh next slide uh this is the survey map of the property and the proposal that's being made to the zoning board will be to subdivide this L-shaped lot creating one new lot at the South or at the bottom um uh which will contain um and I'm sorry so the proposal is to subdivide this property um and create one new lot um so there'll be a new lot directly to the South which will contain the existing two family house uh which is um five Wheeler Street and then the other lot to be created will be the trapezoidal shaped lot that's at the intersection of Wheeler Street and and Woodland uh next slide please um this is the site plan and on the site plan we're stating that the proposal will be to an addition to subdivide the property and keeping that two family house on the souly lot um the existing onear uh one story three car garage is to be removed as is all of that existing paved parking area at the uh northwest corner of Willer Will and Woodland um so the applicant's proposal is to construct a new two and a half story four family dwelling with a new 10ar parking lot and as you could see by the area that's shaded darker gray um one and a half stories of the new building will extend partially extend over that parking area uh next slide please so this is one of the two rendered views of the proposed building uh this first one is um looking Southwest from glennfield Park and the architecture has been designed to complement the buildings directly to the East and to the West along Woodland Avenue uh which include a a simple twostory uh building form in Brick we're also including brick detailing such as coral and Soldier banding uh brick rollock and stretcher courses in addition to cutouts in the facade and the parit to provide views towards Glenfield Park from The Terraces that will be within the building and on the roof of that second floor so the applicant wants to take advantage of of this location uh next to Glenfield Park and have the people who live here um experience the view of of Glenfield Park uh next slide this is a rendered view looking Northeast on Wheeler Street so Glenfield Park is on the left side of this image and the existing five wheeler is on the right side of this image um the two-story portion that brick portion of of the new building the purpose is to Anchor that street corner to sort of relate to those other two buildings the one directly to the west and the one directly to the east um so we'd like to relate to those two buildings which have a pretty strong Frontage on on Woodland Avenue but the re or the southernly portion of this building um we're stepping it in stepping it further away from Wheeler Street so it aligns with the setbacks along Wheeler Street next slide oh n back sorry back thanks so the top half story has a a Gable shaped roof with rectangular Dormers the Dormer shapes were selected to complement what we think is a slightly more contemporary design of this rear portion and the and the top half story section this building um the exterior of the gable roof portion of the building is shown here as a fiber cement material um we studied the use of stucco or wood as other options the proposed Dormers are shown with vertical board siding uh which will match the vertical vertical board siding on a rear um or Southern back box Bay which is in Shadow in this in this rendering um the board siding in our opinion complements and contrasts with the brick and the fiber cement panel in order to provide some visual relief to the facades uh next slide so this is the landscap and lighting plan basically the site will be landscaped with all native plant materials um exterior lighting will comply with the township requirements for safety levels next um the building will have a total of four dwelling units it'll be one at the ground floor uh next slide um and then at the second floor there'll be two side by side dwelling units and then U there'll be a top or fourth unit at that top floor which is basically considered an attic unit because of the slope ceilings uh within that top floor uh next slide this is the view of the building um as seen from Woodland Avenue um so the windows within the brick portion of the building will primarily be one light double hungs cons consistent with the windows um in the neighboring brick buildings uh next slide um and then this is the view again along Wheeler Street the windows in the more contemporary rear portion um and the top half sections will be one light either casement or awning windows plus some fixed windows and and more appropriate for a contemporary style of this rear portion of the building and and we successfully used this approach um I think five or six years ago when we designed the building at 256 Park Street in Wang Plaza uh we did a very traditional uh masonry uh front but then as it went around to the rear it became more contemporary we changed the windows um uh within that contemporary portion as as we're doing here uh next slide please this this slide shows all four exterior elevations um again the top left is the view from Woodland top right is the view from wheeler uh the bottom left is the view up against against um five wheeler the existing building at five Wheeler Street and then the bottom right is the view um um looking to the east uh next slide please so we we prepared A streetcape View to see how the building fits into context of the neighborhood um so there are two street streetscape views the top um top is the streetscape view um along Woodland Avenue and the bottom is the streetcape along wheeler uh so you can see how the the proposed building is in the center of that top top drawing uh the building directly to the east on Woodland the one that had the grocery store that's that's slightly taller and then the building at the corner of um wheeler and Woodland is is is just slightly uh shorter than our subject property subject building um and then the bottom streets gate view is is along Wheeler Street uh the proposed building is the bottom left uh the next building to the right is the existing five wheeler and then uh the next two buildings along wheeler are shown to the right just in outline for next slide please um we didn't include all the site details that are required for the zoning board but uh we've been studying site details for the project there'll be a 4 and 1/2t high wood fence uh to screen the entire west side of the parking area that's partially under the building uh except for where the entrance Drive is into the parking and then the TR we'll have a trash enclosure that will complement the wood fencing it'll have the same wood fencing um as the fence that screens the the parking area uh we're providing two electric vehicle Chargers within the parking area um next next slide uh these these two pictures served as inspiration um the bottom left is is we filled some important to incorporate red brick with detailing um to relate to the neighboring Woodland Avenue buildings and then the the bottom right is more of a contemporary image but we found that um it has this beige fine sand fiber cement um that um relates to the stule on several of the buildings in the neighborhood the problem that I I find is that I don't think any of the stule is is original I think the stuckle on the neighboring buildings is um covered another material originally the in particular five wheeler um we we saw the photograph it was originally brick and now it's stco and then further down wheeler to the um to the South uh there are one or two stucko buildings um I I don't believe that they were originally stuck the more I look at it they were probably woodsiding um so we we've looked at this material this fiber cement material we're um we're open to suggestions uh we like the way it looks um you know we we've investigated wood siding and also stucco I don't I prefer not to do the stucco um so the other thing with the fiber cement panels um the goal is to have minimal or almost invisible joints um seems to be a good choice if if we don't have the joints very visible on those panels um we're wary about introducing another facade material to this neighborhood there's a lot going on in the neighborhood and I'd hate to see something that looks out of place um so I think replacing an unattractive parking area with a new building makes sense as long as the building makes sense both for the neighborhood and provides enjoyment for the people who live there and also enjoyment for the people passing by every day um there's been a gap in the streetscape as as seen from 1934 there's been this parking area in the onear garage um seems odd that that that's been like that for you know 90 years but um The Proposal is to to construct a building there that that will fit into the streetscape and the neighborhood so that's my presentation thank you thank you thank you um we'll start with questions Mr Sweeney do you have a question yes uh I want to get clarification of the uh uh the facade facing the Woodland Avenue and the wheer side is that Bri or is that a brick uh composite something material the the the twostory portion as you can see on slide 13 in your package that that's brick that is brick that that front twostory section is all all brick brick with brick detailing okay cuz it it looks substantially different from the brick in the uh on the other buildings on Wheeler and Woodland so yeah think it's not clar to me so so second I would to ask you whether you view that building and its design uh consistent with the historic character of the other buildings in the vicinity I I do I think the um we've made a strong effort to have that that two-story brick portion um relate to the buildings in the neighborhood um and then to the rear we've stepped stepped in that uh one and a half story section so it has the same setback as the buildings along Wheeler Street however it will have a gable roof for you know a triangular shape roof um along Wheeler Street there the as you probably have seen there many different roof shapes U five wheeler for example just has a low pitch uh roof starting at at the Wheeler Street facade then and pitching back many of the buildings on Wheeler Street have that same type of roof of pitch uh but there are quite a few with Gable shaped roofs on on Wheeler Street uh so we thought we'd incorporate the Gable shape um and also it make it in our case um make it more dramatic inside of that apartment that top floor okay third my just relates to the the other historic building is in there is is the uh in your view is the design of the building design consistent with the historic character of the adjacent buildings I I I think it is yes and why do you think it is because it looks to me like a much more modern type well the yes the rear part that stepped in is is definitely more contemporary than the The major portion that sits at the corner of woodlet and Wheeler um so that I think anchors the the property that two-story brick section um but definitely the part that uh you're correct the part that steps back is is more contemporary okay thank you thank you uh who uses the garage currently is that for the five-wheel uh residents I'd have to ask the applicant okay just Storage storage just storage and the uh the parking lot where the building's being built um who uses that is that public or open to the public no no cuz there are cars on it in the picture so I was just curious about it use some res are using it okay um I don't really have many questions thank you Nick yeah was there any thought to just do the back kind of in the same brick vein as the front and the sort of two front sides even if it does step back and maybe the geometry gets a little different with the gable roof but just kind of continue the the same material language we we we didn't think of continuing the same language as the front um we we wanted to sort of acknowledge the remainder of Wheeler Street and and the trick was to make the transition from that brick to this more contemporary portion in the rear um so we we no we we probably were never going to do all all brick or at least all brick with a flat roof anyway okay that was my only question for right now thank you I had a question on P I think it's page you have a diagram of the massing here it's on 18 page 18 so you have a diagram of the massing of the house at 2729 Woodland then the proposed the new H this new building and then 1617 Woodland which is existing and there's voids there's empty spaces between each one the one to the right of the house is obviously the street correct and then the one to the left that's parking for um 2729 Woodland so if you look at um the photograph um on slide seven that one so the building on the left is 2729 and that um space to the right of or to the west of 2729 that's used as parking for 2729 oh so that's not included in this that's not part of this lot that that's part of 27 29's property so my question is are the widths between between these buildings relatively the same it looks like the one where the street is is is larger wider but not significantly wider there's no um scale there's no numbers on it there's no Dimensions yeah D thank you um right no that one yes that one right so so on the top stre Escape that's that space is the parking area for the the neighbors's property um between those first two buildings and then as you stated to the right of the proposed building is is the street that's wheeler um and then um but are those are those relatively the it looks here the one to the right is not significantly larger but just a little bit larger just wondering how H How uh the those two voids relate to I'm sorry which question like was the the diagram was it drawn to to scale of the distance between the existing properties and the propos yes okay and then my other question is you just spoke about um you were speaking about page 22 with the um you do not want to use stucco correct you you I think the preference was not to use stucco I I feel like it was introduced as a almost incorrectly to cover up things almost like aluminum siding was um in this neighborhood okay um if if the board per if the commission preferred stucco over the fiber cement we we would consider that um but we wanted to have a a very smooth finish on this contemporary part uh to contrast with the brick and to fit in with the I guess the cont temporary feel is the fiber cement surface treatment is that smoother than a I mean you couldn't oh yeah it's it's very smooth um okay if you look yeah it's hard to see but on that slide 22 which is probably the last Slide the bottom the Right image is is um from a from a fiber cement company um where it's a very smooth board um and what what we liked about this is um you don't really see the the the joints between it um I and does it have a reflective quality no no it's mat Matt finish okay um that those were my two questions thank you before we have our discussion is there anyone from the public that would like to ask a question no okay so before we open up for our discussion I just would like to read from from um our design guidelines that says the underlying Concept in designing new buildings for historic districts is that the new building must be both compatible with the historic character of the district and be a product of its own time or in other words not replicate historic designs it is a common misconception that newly constructing buildings should look old and should imitate historic structures it is important to realize that while historic districts do convey a sense of time in place associated with their history these areas are not frozen in time and continue to be dynamic evolving communities this evolution is apparent via building styles and methods of construction that reflect the apparent age of the buildings and I think from what Mrs sius said also the materials as well I would add that so um having uh quoted that from our design guidelines we'll open it up now for discussion amongst the the Commissioners Mr Sweeney thank you uh overall concept I like filling in the empty space there putting a productive building that's uh going to be consistent with the character um I'm glad you read that little excerpt there because it when I looked at the building it it um seemed that all the buildings immediately adjacent to on both wheeler and Woodland uh were brick in character and and it's uh it just appears to be a different color brick but as you've indicated they're both brick uh so I generally like it I don't feel as comfortable with the uh the um portion on the facade uh next to the five wheeler that's whatever that black material is I'm not sure what that material is f Smith we were just talking about yeah yeah that I that I'm I'm troubled by I I and I think if you're going to have it consistent with character the facade should have more of a brick appearance that's my comment that's okay okay thank you but I generally like as I say filling in with buildings and I and uh at first it was daunting to see all the uh variants needed in code waivers but I think they uh they're probably appropriate they're accomplish of this uh which is a uh to me it looks like a major uh project even if it's a minor uh subdivision thank you Mike yeah I don't have much to add I generally agree with uh Mr Sweeney's comments I uh like the overall design um in particular the parapets the way uh the cutouts are designed um I think it does a nice job of blending in but being a little bit more modern um farb for me to give architectural advice but I um I have Mr Juliano's voice in my head from the last meeting about adding muttons perhaps in some of the windows in the uh older uh section of the building but uh I would leave that to uh more learned uh members of this Bo of this commission but overall I I am uh supportive of this project and I like how it fills that Gap that void in in that parking lot Nick do you have any yeah um overall very much in support of it um I think the the proportions and the appearance of the brick along the street faces are are very nice on it um especially when you see it on the streetscape diagram um it really picks up the scale and the the character of the building across the street very well um I don't mind so much the the more modern approach to the back I do take a little bit of issue particularly on page 13 the view of the um fiber cement volume from that street just because it's so um open to the street on that side um I wonder if it might be a bit more sensitive of an approach to do that in Brick as well and even some of the buildings in the surrounding neighborhood have the brick Gable end on them so even if it were just perhaps for those two facades the one directly facing wheeler and then the Gable end that you know you see so well from the street you know those were rendered in Brick I think it might fit the streetcape a little bit better and then coming around to the view that's on the screen there I don't have any issue with the fiber cement on on those sides um and you know for the third floor SL attic area so that would be my recommendation any anything else M no that's all uh well I I my opinion I generally in support of of the entire design I particularly like the way that The Terraces have been included in the interior uh parts of it which on a corner really opens up the um uh the volume of it it doesn't become so uh bulky even though it is you know a large large building um I have the same feeling that the fiber cement although I don't mind the the material the introduction of that material into the neighborhood and I think Paul your point is good about the stco I think that when you look at it especially on page 13 which I think everybody else has noted it's a it's just um it it overwhelms it and it becomes more disjointed and it's not to say that the design I mean it's definitely the more modern approach to uh the you know the traditionally minded piece on the corner but I think it just might be uh a bit overwhelming especially because that the buildings uh the other buildings on the street and I'm not quite sure it yeah they're not as wide as as it seems like a big block of of uh dark dark color there but I generally overall I'm really I'm in of it and I think it would be a good addition to the uh the streetcape and and the neighborhood and I think it fits in as if our interpretation of new construction in an historic district does anyone else have anything else to say no it seemed unanimous okay then thank you thank you very much yeah it's exciting [Music] I'm sorry thank you Paul a thank you Paul nice seeing oh yeah A1 yeah so which R transformed that that was gray stuckle all the botom put that all output in oh our next order of business is a referral from the planning board application 28753 whe Wheeler Street this is a another major subdivision I think this is a minor subdivision minor okay minor subdivision to subdivide the property um sub property into two lots this property is also within the proposed historic district known as Wheeler Street uh Wheeler Street historic district which we just discussed uh the subject property is located on the West Side the it contains the pre-existing three family building was subject to a gut renovation in 2018 building is in the northeast corner of the property with a driveway located south of the building provides access to an unstrap parking area the entire property is paved and surrounded by combined retaining wall and fence um and I just want to note that the um existing house or building that's on the property to the north is considered an intrusion into the uh historic district so the um uh okay so it it's an intrusion now uh we do not have anyone here to speak to the application but uh we can still make a recommendation to the is at the planning board um as to whether or not the idea of the subdivision uh for this property would be in uh accordance or uh how it relates to the um to the Wheeler Street historic district and do we factor in the intrusion the uh the intrusive property um let's ask this I know we can probably consider anything we'd like but uh I would definitely I I would definitely include that yeah we include that in our in our um referral or or recommendation back to the V well no I I didn't mean that I meant include everything about it from its design and massing and you know placement and so on and so forth with respect to your um historic preservation consideration of the application before you or referred to you okay could you explain the the intrusion po it it's the it it it's the style of the of the building that was built the style yeah yeah so so they it's key contributing and intrusion um are the three uh classifications on a building within a historic district intrusion me is out of character right which means it's out of character but as if you look at the um page three which is on the planning report you could see that the the passing of the building um and the building to the right um they sit right on the um the driveway there's no not driveway the sidewalk there's no there's no front yard no setback um the height of this building is appears to be higher than the building on on the on the uh to the South um to the north not the North to the to the South there is another building that's 2 and 1/2 stories high which also I I didn't look at this one up um but it also looks to be a little bit not original to the um to the district so I think what we have if you look at page seven you've got a um uh you know a good view of the streetcape uh which is across Wheeler Street from the subject property looking East which are 2 and 1 half story uh houses so I guess we can speak about the placement and the and the and the massing and and and uh we have no proposed building actually it's really just for the subdivision would we have an opportunity to review any building that was uh uh proposed for the subdivision well I would I don't know do we have that in so it was this bifurcated they're just asking for a subdivision now yeah you can ask them to come back right we okay and I think that we would have to right um I mean recommend I guess we if we can require it I would require it um it looks like all the houses are um even the ones who contributing uh are fairly close together I wouldn't see the subdivision itself uh being a a a um a deterrent a deterrent yeah I would think the design of the right building is really the primary concern making sure it's not right up against the sidewalk making sure that uh the design fits with the character of the neighborhood but from um purely subdividing I do not believe is a um deter detriment to the neighborhood detriment not deter detriment Nick um yeah I agree I mean just looking at the overhead map and and the site plan I mean the subdivision I don't think is making a lot that's any smaller than what's characteristic of the neighborhood I think this lot is uncharacteristically Big compared to the rest of the neighborhood um and if we have the opportunity to review the house that's going on the subdivided lot the hope is it is consistent with the neighborhood and maybe block some of the view of this big one that's not consistent with the rest of the neighborhood so maybe the subdivision helps to actually uphold the the fabric of the neighborhood a little bit better if it's a if it's a sensitive design for the new building so I'm in favor of the subdivision so can we make it a requirement um for the to come come back with the design or we can't because this is just a it's a referral it's a referral so we can recomend it's referral and it's an advisory report um just request it okay we'll request it Jerry we also need to have accurate data is this two family or three family the house in the area appears to be two family this house does I'm sorry this building does appear out of character out of size this one yeah the existing one out of character on our size but I as Mike said I I don't have any problem with the subdivision of the property into two lots because I think the the lot is is double size compared to all the other siid so so that aspect of it doesn't trouble me uh what goes in there troubles me given that what's already in there is excess of mass excess of size autoc character and um and uh otherwise uh troubling the design it it's it's it's very strange to me I I would include those comments in your comments going back to the planning board because that's what you really want to want to um not further detract from the situation um and then request to see the design absolutely well that will be in that will have to be in in the referral so you'll you you'll write that and then let me know when does this go to the planning the zoning board do you know not in March pardon me probably April April April oh okay I'm just wondering in terms of timing if you're going to be able to do this by tomorrow because you're leaving that's why I will update you okay I just don't to miss if if you're not going to be able to do it we need we need that's why I asked when if when you knew it was going to be presented it won be presented in March well know so we have time okay as long as we have time because I think this is important that we get it right to send to the zoning board or planning board okay so we're in agreement that the subdivision but it's the um uh we in Des would need to confirm because I'm not aware of the schedule of the planning board uh I in my head it was zoning board so I will confirm tomorrow but I think I can do the referral by tomorrow okay okay so we are in agreement that the subdivision is okay considering the character of the neighborhood um but that the uh the building that will be proposed uh we request that they it come back to us so we can look at it um in terms of the massing the size and uh the placement okay all right so you'll inform the Mr Trac thank you now with that um we have an discussion open discussion is there I don't think we there's nothing that we were going to discuss I discussion I would say it's happy to be able to finish this early in the evening um so that we don't have a an objective of going uh 3 to four hours every night so all right so it is now uh 8:47 uh will would someone like to make a motion to adjourn sounds like Jerry wants to I'll second Jerry's motion all in favor okay so we thank you we'll see next meeting which is April no March 21st what time 8:48 my son he's doing School of Rock and musicians do