good evening everyone and welcome to the January 18th 2024 regular meeting of the Montclair historic preservation commission notice has been given in accordance with the public opens meeting act by posting a copy of the notice on the first floor of this building and by sending a copy to the Monclair times Star Ledger in The Herald news we are being broadcast live on Channel 34 Montclair TV and remotely streamed on the YouTube channel would you please do the roll Kathleen Bennett present Stephan Rooney here John ryets here Michael Graham he'll be late okay he'll be late yeah Gerald Sweeney oh sorry I'm here Nicholas Juliano here um Janine Bower here did you call you no I didn't I'm also here Jason Hinman thank you okay thank you and and Mike is going to be late yeah okay so so first order of business the new year is our reorganization meeting it's election of the board of the board officers so may I have a um motion to like to make a motion the motion I'd move to reelect chairman Bennett for next year as chairman are there any other um oh second I second are there any other names out there no all right all in favor I okay thank you um we need to uh have a motion to elect the vice chair I have an idea for that one too it's Mike Graham I would nominate a move that he become Vice chairman second all in favor I I okay thank you and with that I'd like to say thank you to Jason for his uh unwavering support for the past how many years uh I think eight years now eight years yeah this is the last meeting so let's make it a good one all right um next is secretary um we have a uh nom uh a motion to elect a secretary isn't the secretary Fara yes we we still have to make a motion okay I move that farwa is elected secretary second second Steve all right all in favor I I thank you and then assistant secretary Janice I nominate Janice t as assistant secretary okay second Steve in favor I okay thank you very much so we have a lot on our plate for this upcoming year but it's all good um so at this point I am going to be removing myself from the room because we are going to uh approve the minutes in sections so the first one Jason will take over to approve the partial approval of minutes from line page two line 35 to page 5 line 13 and then the resolution for the label Street Factory um local Historic Landmark nomination okay has everyone had an opportunity to review the me minutes yes okay are there any comments or revisions for uh that section of the meet for the uh meeting minutes uh I have a few okay okay uh line nine no line nine page three um there was um I guess a question uh Miss hickey said that she believed two criteria were fulfilled did she not indicate that all four all five criteria were fulfilled no my recollection it was just two okay okay um then I go on down to line 16 on the same page and just add something again I believe uh uh Miss Adriana UL mentioned that um the son of Samuel Crump fought in World War I and his name was also on um a war memorial in Edgemont field we should just since it's a historic sort of thing we should maybe comment on it uh do you have any proposed language you want to reference um certain section let's see what does it say here what she mention the son founded the label business I'd say uh one of crump's sons fought and died in World War one and his name appears on the War Memorial in Edgemont park right okay um going further down line 33 his the sentence reads his comments for the four identified structures in the report are I would switch out r with the word were read uh line page four line two uh the sentence begins miss Mr Wes said as per definition of the word District I would put District in parenthesis quotation marks quotation marks I mean yeah quot mhm yeah what it's quotation marks par oh not parth quotation marks yes line 19 uh same page uh the floor was open for public questions from now it should be to two Okay and then starting on line 38 I have completely different language that I would substitute for 38 through 38 page see my sheets aren't numbered that's page yeah page four line 38 and it goes on to page five line six so that entire paragraph that entire paragraph I would swap out and you have I see you've got a copy yeah I got a copy of what I'd like and that's from the resolution this is no no this is what I'd like to put in the minutes yes so and that's language from the resolution correct no it's language describes our action on the resolution yes can I see this yeah that's why I want to see if there's you're on the bottom of page four right yeah those reflect mostly my comments I think I thought they were accurate okay so I elaborated yeah you want to just not on your comments but this whole this whole paragraph can I read can I read what I was substitute okay you should have a copy of this okay the commission yeah the commission discussed the nomination report the majority of Commissioners agreed that the history of the district does tie together and even though the Crump buildings do not exist anymore the remaining buildings continuity of uses and the site's pattern of development warrants Landmark designation one commissioner commented that the area has a significant manufacturing history and that the nomination report meets several criteria one commissioner stated his opinion that the level of Integrity of some of the buildings is so low that it does not rise to the level of a district that is and uh that and that while the report highlighted the his Rich history that no one knew before it does not warrant recognition as a Historic District Two Commissioners noted the uniqueness of the site in relation to any other area of Monclair and that it is a clear where you are when you are walking the site Commissioners noted that the manufacturing occurred on the land and although it did not necessarily occur in the remaining buildings those buildings were related to business to the business of manufacturing and the site's overall pattern of development I'll give you I think the only difference is this as currently written reflects the order in which it occurred so changing the way you've done changes the order in which the comments occur uh we can put your we can put your comment first yeah I I do think it should make it clear that the the majority of the commission or you don't have to have disagree they just just uh spell out what they concluded they felt the definition of District was met and that the does tie together and uh there's a cont you other was basically the the issue but you have to make it stronger right the way it's written it seems like everyone has responded to that one comment by me and that wasn't what happened so I but I think the order should be in the order in which the uh comments were made well okay commissioner com can say the rest of the commissioner the other Commissioners um you don't have to mention disagree you say satisfied all the criteria so what would the proposed language be Jerry that you would prefer you want to keep it the same only change I would have had is just say U you can say the majority let's say the majority of the Commissioners are are you you're referring to the draft minutes starting on line four okay I'm sorry starting on line three the sentence will read the majority of Commissioners concluded that the area and buildings satisfy the definition of District said the history of the district does tie together T only need the word does the history of the district ties together and uh even though Trump buildings do not exist the continuity of the use of the building remains I'm sure you can leave it as it just it's fine any any objections is that it's fine I mean we can get into what each person said I mean I said something after you did and then Michael did and then Nick did so I but I think that's fine is it clear to you Farwell what the amendment is anything that you corrected what's that no I think we're just going to leave it as is subject to Jerry's Amendment anything else John uh yeah uh line uh n see no I did that uh no that's it any other comments or revisions no all right so um I'll entertain a motion to approve the minutes as amended and I think it's what four amendments mhm so okay can I have a motion so moved second all in favor I I all right uh the minutes have been moved uh the next item on the agenda is the resolution for the label Street Factory local Landmark nomination has everybody had a chance to review the resolution uh are there any um comments or proposed revisions I I had a um I had a change to paragraph X okay I had to add a couple words for not Serv um and I don't know whether you Reed that okay okay so Miss B do you want to just read it into the record and then we'll approve his amended um so uh I would be adding the word and ensuring that notice and service requirements had been accomplished to the end of paragraph X on page n so in other words instead of a period after a meeting it would say meeting and ensuring that notice and service requirements have been accomplished very good uh so I'll entertain a motion to approve the resolution as amended I believe everyone is eligible except Jerry I move just I have one comment for just the yeah just the Northeast architectural minutes I'm sorry I don't have the page numbers but where it starts oh back for the minutes we oh the minutes yeah we're at the resolu yeah okay that's fine uh can I get a second on the resolution uh commissioner uh Rooney uh all in favor I any opposed well you're you're abstaining I'm abstaining to the resolution yes okay opposed I thought I was oppos it but uh he opposed John was the uh movement Mr Rooney is the second yes all right um and I think that concludes this portion of the meeting I think Kathleen can uh retake uh the chair okay thank you Jason so so we will now move on to uh uh approve the remaining minutes M um which are the um the ones that that go from page one to page two line 29 and then start up again on page five line 17 to the end of the minute and it switches line 40 uh line 8 on page 7 so are there any uh additions or amendments to the minutes as they as they're written I have one comment for Northeast architectural just um on line what page are you on I think it's oh I you have to number the page I've asked FL to number them from now on it's five L2 okay five line 32 just to capitalize the H in Hardy and spell it hrdi line is it 32 line 32 M so that'll get capitalized just because it's a it's a trade product capital h a r d i e board anybody else with any amend I have a few um I've already spook to follow about them but I'll go over them for the record on page two line 17 uh resolution 20 2023 D31 that should be 2023 d37 um the the uh number is incorrect [Music] um page five page five line 20 8 a signage plan will be submitted separately and is not a part of this application because installing a monument sign would require variance I asked that that be struck because a uh signage plan was submitted which was discussed on the next page uh number three and to add a sentence at the end of that paragraph which would be on line five the proposed Monument sign sign will be eliminated and then on uh also on page six line 30 installation of gutters on the side of the property I've asked that that be on the side of the house rather than property and then number nine installation of a pipe on the property the same change it to um house and um then the other thing was just 9:32 commission said that the plan is uncleared and not organized and they will not be able to comment just uh strike due to which and that and and either one uh the next line either an on-site review should be scheduled uh rather than done and then I wanted to add that the commission the entire commission thank Conley and hickey for their outstanding service to the commission over the past over the last five years because it was their last um uh meeting and I thought it would be we should memorialize that I have uh I don't know what page it is next to the last page line five and line six you have to decide how do you spell Belgium where are you here I've got Belgium and Belgium oh I think it's the second one that's for North Mountain North Mountain Belgian Belgian it's the first it's B the first one it's the first one not not the not the country country okay I didn't know which one one of those is right one of I um any other no no so with that we have a motion to accept the minutes as amended motion second all in favor I I I okay then we move on to resolution uh application 20233 208 bellw Avenue Northeast architectural do we have resolution 7A that's that's the one I'm I'm sorry sorry that was I thought you moving on to the new business my apologies you're right no no no uh it's a res the resolution apology apology application 20233 208 Belleview Avenue which was included in your packet um is that has everyone had the opportunity to read any amendments or concerns for that no no well if hearing none would somebody please make a a motion to um accept the uh motion to approve approve the resolution second second all in favor I I okay so that's approved um committee reports we've had a lot of activity over the past month the U minor applications me three times application 2023-the was approved with conditions 2023-24 one5 Bloomfield Avenue was approved with conditions um application 2023-24 South Park approved with conditions and 2023 47 at 614 Valley Road was approved with additions in um with a yeah approved with conditions and additionally at our last meeting we um we discussed application 20 23-15 which remains open so we need to have has anything moved on that okay so we need to we need to uh going 30 North Mountain okay so we need to we need to address that this com upcoming week and then um 2023-24 which was also discussed at the meeting uh in December 15 which was at 43 Church Street that was approved with conditions um The Advisory Board The Advisory design review commission met with members of the library board virtually to discuss and offer suggestions for the Upper Montclair Library Plaza so um John came up with some very good suggestions we haven't heard back from them yet but if when that moves forward I think that'll be very uh a good project um and then the new owner of the Mills building has asked the advisory committee to meet with him on site and discuss the exterior condition and and the garden this is a local landmark in any changes to the exterior the building or garden must be approved by the HPC but um we're going to be able we were invited by Mr placc who's in the audience and he's invited The Advisory Board to meet on site so who I just want to ask for volunteers okay John I think um Mike is on that commission that committee as well anyone else so what I'll do is I'll get in touch with you when we when we um decide on a a tie but I think you I think he Mr plac said Tuesday was good but hopefully the weather will um accommodate us the Outreach uh we do have a meeting scheduled on February 1st at 10:00 a.m. at the ryer van ryer Bond house up at Monclair State Monclair University it's really been in terrible condition the exterior and uh the I reached out to them because there was some concern from people in the neighborhood and they've gotten back to me after about 6 months but it's great to see that they're reaching out and we're going to meet at 10:00 a.m. is anyone interested in joining joining us at that meeting February 1st okay yes no okay so um maybe I'll speak to somebody we'll get somebody else to come um the design review 11 South Fullerton which um is the restaurant and now they've closed where are we with that the facade which was not approved and they're outstanding violations so a violation was sent to sent to them and uh their time their 30-day period is over so we need to send them a notice um again probably next week uh to see where it can go from there okay it's still under discussion that exactly what steps we should be taking okay it's still under discussion what what was approved and what wasn't done or what was changed in the approval no that is for sure like um what we approved they are for sure in they're aware they're aware of the the we haven't heard back from them and it has been 30 days already so what's under discussion is that how do we proceed with this violation okay does it make sense I have a qu does this follow with the tenant of the restaurant or the owner of the building the owner of the building owner because the tenant is gone that's why I'm asking tenant's long gone and they're the ones that produce the violations and the building where does the violation the violation follows with the owner of the follows the building owner with the owner of the building okay all right so we'll be in touch with that um landmark and grants uh we're moving along really well with the CLG Grant which is due tomorrow um that is for the uh phase two of the upper Monclair commuter area and um I received two letters of support which I'd like to read just a paragraph because I think it's really important that the members of the commission hear this the Montclair History Center I for letters of support the Montclair History Center has said the Monclair historic preservation commission demonstrates a profound understanding of the historical significant of the structures and sites under their purview their expertise extends Beyond architectural considerations and also delves into the social cultural and historic context of each property and area ensuring a comprehensive approach to preservation their commitment to maintaining the Integrity of our shared history is evident in the thoroughness with which they assess and evaluate various sites throughout Monclair so I thought that was that was good for everybody to hear and then we've got a letter of support from the first W councilman Bill Hurlock who uh has written as Deputy Mayor and first word counsel counselor serving for the past 11 and a half years this project Falls within my ward as such I have a strong connection to this location and share a keen interest in its future I believe that is important to advance this project a project such as this deser preserves the fabric in history that is Montclair especially the First Ward and then um thank you for your time and attention to this important ma matter so uh I think it's good to have two letters of support and I wanted that to go on on the record um so fa and I have been working on this uh she will be the project coordinator so all everything that will come through fawa and then she will disseminate it to the grants committee and we will dis disseminate it to everybody here tomorrow no it it'll be about eight months Steve you've got time um the um and Fa I wanted to make you aware I don't know if you are but see the certified local Grant of which we we're been able to to obtain all these grants their annual report is due in um February sometime are you uh so you're not aware of it okay so we'll be in touch the it's a um it's a comprehensive report report but it's just basically filling in um questions and we've done it for for years um uh our previous assistant our previous secretaries filled it in so it's it's it's not difficult but um that should be in Tommy's files because it's an annual report and it's and I mention it now because it's coming up probably within the next month okay um then we did have a special committee for the demo a uh ordinance which uh Mr Sweeney and Mike Graham worked on very diligently and um Jason also uh gave some of his remarks to uh to uh compliment everybody but rather than speak about it now I put that at the end of the meeting cuz I think that's going to take a little bit more time okay and that's it for committees the only thing I wanted to say I sent this to everybody but um the uh National Park Service is doing a webinar about substitute materials have you has everybody gotten this I made copies and um it's coming up in February and that's something that we're going to be addressing we have addressed in the past substitute materials so what's approp roate so it would be something I think that everybody should uh try to make there's two there's two sessions they're during the there's three no they're two Tuesday and Thursday the 6th and the 22nd do you have another one they I saw something today that was a third session oh all right well it's popular but I urge everybody I urge everybody to to to try to to uh click onto this and uh we do as a clj Grant um uh uh holder we are responsible for educational every every commission member has to do has responsibility for an educational component so this would be if you if you uh uh decide to take this please let fawa know so that she can Market in your uh for CLG everybody on the commission must attend an educational seminar and you sometimes we we have uh registration at the um State uh conventions but you know historic preservation SE conventions but this would also be eligible so make sure that you have an ed for each commissioner that you keep what what they attend in terms of Education okay so whoever attends it will inform they'll inform you right okay so moving along public comment is there anybody here that would like to address the commission on anything no all right seeing no public comment we'll close that old business seeing that there's no old business we'll close that we are on to new business so we have application 223-4360 to 341 Bloomfield Avenue and Jackson Mr bangs is up and I will just this this was um postponed to tonight from last month so thank you very much for your understanding uh for you know coming in at this time thank you my pleasure so um 33 300 to 346 Bloomfield Avenue is a was construct in 1920 it is uh listed in the uh it is a classical Revival building that is is located in the Montclair um Central business district uh historic district uh the building has some I'm I'm trying to read my notes all right so the proposed work at the at this three story structure includes updating the storad bulkheads to wood or composite with cast or natural stone bases removing the awnings restoring the wooden Crown at the first floor and I believe that this what you're addressing is is 300 to 334 Bloomfield Avenue not the entire facade uh primarily yes okay so before you begin I'm going to ask Miss Bard to swear you in doar I do and just identify yourself uh Jackson bangs project architect uh Sionis architecture located at 8 Hillside Avenue Montclair New Jersey thank you um I'm representing 330 Bloom LLC the owner of the property um and you have a PowerPoint presentation yes I prepared a PowerPoint which consists of the photographs and drawings which you were all submitted uh in your packets is this a clicker okay so I'm going to move over to the computer do you have yeah you have to like click on it and it goes to the application folder and then you have to download all of it can you hear me can you hear me yes okay scen so um you're probably all familiar with the location of this property um it is between South Willow Street and Gates Avenue uh on the south side of Bloomfield Avenue it consists of a it's an irregularly shaped lot which consists of two buildings which are very similar in style right next to each other um here's a photograph of the two buildings um the primary subject of this application is the easterly building building it's the three-story building um we're here to discuss a restoration project today the goal of the project is for the buildings to look exactly the same as they do in this photo except cleaner and nicer um so as you can see the face brick on the three-story building is in extremely bad condition um the floor structure it's not tied to the wall properly this is leading to lateral movement in different directions as you can see there's severe cracking in many locations including the lentils uh there's water infilt infiltration coming through the tops of these lentils it's leading to severe leakage inside of the apartments furthermore more the central column uh at the storefront level is failing which has caused several inches of deflection in the center of the building um we believe that it was essentially supported for several years by the iron uh roll down security uh grates that the stores had as you can see it's now properly secured temporarily with that yellow post at the top of the building the parit is overturning it's leaning backwards away from the street it's a it's at least a foot possibly further out of Plum and that is also letting in a lot of water as you can see several of the bricks are popping outward which presented so much potential danger that we erected a sidewalk shed um which you've probably seen if you went by recently um so after doing that we opened up on the inside of the building in a unit that had a residence that had become vacant we noticed a lot of those cracks had telegraphed through from the exterior all the way to the interior we also noticed that some of the lentils in the building were Timber which is unusual and um that they were not doing very well uh so clearly there's a lot of reconstruction work needed the building itself is sound but the facade is not um so this uh so our proposal as depicted here is to remove the outer the entire outer we of face brick um on the interior there's two layers of backup um it's primar clay Hollow clay tile with some brick as well we hope to salvage that using uh an using uh syntech anchors a system that's been used with historic masonry to reinforce it with steel and um injected uh grout to lock the anchors in place if that's not possible we may need to rebuild and entire portions of the front facade um we've documented the entire facade rigorously uh We've engaged a masonry conservator and we're prepared to put it back properly so that it looks exactly the same as it does now um the goal of the project is to as I said is to have the building look exactly the way it currently does for many years to come as part of the project will replace the windows the windows were replaced previously they were replaced with vinyl windows the vinyl windows are now failing so we'll replace them with wood with a clad wood windows which will be more historically correct and hopefully more durable certainly more durable than the vinyl windows are the goal as the project is to reuse as much of the existing limestone in the belt courses as possible we've looked at some of it from the scaffolds that are up some of it will need to be replaced some of it we hope to salvage anything that cannot be salvaged we plan to replace with cast stone to match the original as closely as possible the same will go for the lentils over the windows which are obviously well well beyond repair uh when those outer lentils are replaced we'll also replace the inner lentils with proper reinforced concrete ones that can properly carry the structure the entire parit will need to be replaced because it's so far out of Plum that will be taken down to the roof deck and rebuilt with reinforcement so that it will be more stable than what's there right now and we'll flash everything properly along the top um we reviewed uh the consultant memo that was dated December 12th from Mr Connelly we have no issues whatsoever with any of his recommendations um we plan to as I said to replicate the existing Flemish Bond patterns and all of the brick coursing exactly um I do want to mention that while while this application primarily concerns the three-story building um the owner does plan to do some basic routine maintenance on the west building the west building we've assessed it's in much much better condition but it's still could use some scraping and repointing of joints it has some graffiti that needs to be removed and there's a few areas of U missing or damaged uh coping on top of the parit that need to be replaced so the goal is to do that work at the same time that we're doing work on the larger building uh and leave leave the structure really in good shape for another another Century to come so thank you yes I'd be happy to answer any questions okay thank you so why don't we start with questions with uh Nick are you guys planning to replace the like the Juliet balcony railing that's there too uh that's actually a fire escape oh okay um so the fire escape is in extremely good condition actually I've I've been out on it myself that's how I looked at the brick before the the scaffolding went up uh it's anchored really well to the building and there's only minor uh scraping of a little bit of rust and and touchup paint that's needed it's in very good condition and the storefront it's levels in fairly new condition so the storefronts themselves are in good shape however the bulkheads are this really really terrible rough stucco that was applied MH interestingly the bulkheads underneath them it's framed it's not masonry so what our plan is is to remove the stucco and the boards that it's mounted to and replace it with either a a wood or comp composite panel design probably a wood or composite panel design than with a stone um base to meet the curb since it appears as if it wasn't Stone historically there okay and the storefront itself is like a powder coat aluminum yeah they're modern um they were replaced at some point in the past when they were replaced however the original wood transom level was left intact it has a wood molding with uh some nice a nice Dental pattern the our plan is to retain as much of that as possible and fabricate replacement parts uh to continue the pattern where it was removed such as where the security gates were with glass that trans with glass it was glass right there's still some glass left um not all of it is possible to some of the storefronts have some of the stores have dropped ceilings now some of them don't uh we've discussed how it would be really nice to expose some of it um but it's it's unclear if that's within the scope of the project at this time okay I have no other questions right now John um I guess you're not showing in this what I'm looking at here the work in the building to the West that correct but you're saying you want us to approve it um the work on the building to the West wouldn't be architectural changes it's really just routine maintenance so damage I see to lentils and fascia and so on you you're going to leave and just touch up is that what I'm hearing uh yeah any any damage to lentils on those that building is minor uh there's a few areas of decorative terracotta that have uh they're a little worn um but there's nothing in dire need of replacement it's just an old building that looks like an old building to some extent um if I if I said the lentils were in poor condition I misspoke and I apologize the the uh the cornice has some areas that that could use a little work they're just coping there's metal coping that uh a few pieces are missing just on top of the corners yeah and it looks like they've wrapped some stuff over the top of the building as well I guess I would you know ask well that's a question ask for some sort of written description of the work that's being done on this on the west building we can provide that okay we we we're working on a a written description to provide to contractors okay um it's all it's all very minor work it's all in our mind appropriate um that address would be three that address 36 or 338 that address uh this property is 330 through 346 right uh so I believe the East Building is 330 to 334 so that would be 336 to 346 okay but it's it's the same lot the two buildings are on the same lot it's quite large yes okay that's what had me confused when I saw it um but yes I think that's important that we get some type of written description as to what some nice details on that building yeah and we don't plan to touch any of the details um okay but we will we'll provide a written description it's in the works already I have a were these two buildings singled out uh uh um I didn't I didn't look them up on the uh 1982 historic survey were they both sep they were they weren't they weren't documented they weren't documented CU some of the buildings were not so I was just they're the same era though 1920s or is that yeah they don't look like they were they weren't built at exactly the same time right but they're they're very similar in age okay um their brick is almost identical um yeah Jason question yeah my question was you know it's interesting you brought up the brick and that was my question about magic because you said you're tear tearing down the facade of the west building you're going to try to reuse some um no the East Building East building building yeah you're going to try and reuse what you can but we're going to reuse what we can of the stone we do not anticipate that any brick will be salvageable okay and you do you have a brick manufacturer that yes in fact I I have a brick sample that I don't have with me tonight so we'll provide we can ask for that yeah we will certainly provide you with the brick sample it's it is a it is the closest to a perfect match I've ever found so oh good good yeah um and it'll be close to the the um West building oh yeah you you won't be able to tell the difference um and naturally will match the mortar as well that's all I have okay Steve same question that Mr Hinman okay did you my question the uh was the bulk of the work done now for safety reasons and integrity of the building yes okay second will the building look substantially the same as it was before the work is done yes nothing Happ okay then from and um so the what is the is it is the building the East Building is that brick is that a brick building with a white brick facing on it uh the the East Building is primary it's uh the inner the in layers are a mixture of hollow terracotta and brick all around yes oh okay so this is just this it's a Complete Masonry structure okay and so this is just a brick facing yes which is only on the front facade uh that's correct well yeah on on the side it was clearly parged at some point in the past I don't recall if it was on the rear um okay no we're concerned with was Bloomfield Avenue but and I can see that from your photograph but I was just curious that um and and you're proposing that you've testified that you've done documentation as far as the pattern goes that it will be replaced in the and the brick will be the same size as yes that it is here CU they aren't they manufacturing different size bricks now I mean they're all different they are there's a lot of different sizes available but the size that the size that was used in the construction of this building is one of them a standard okay very standard okay yeah um any other questions any questions from the public on this I I just have one question sure was uh uh two of them were not so you should probably mark it as an except okay fine that'll be A1 okay which ones were they the interior photos oh okay yeah because they didn't exist yet when I submitted this sorry which one uh the two interior photos in the PowerPoint presentation were not were the only material that was not in this packet okay so before we open it up for discussion um you've um addressed the issues that Mr Conley wrote about on on his report yes um by testifying that you're going to replicate the pattern and the color um that's original to the um facade yes um so the soldier course above the display window is that what you what did did you that's not the transom that that's that's here it's directly above the uh above the awnings above the multi there's there's several Soldier courses actually right two at least and what what do you intend to do with the awnings uh the awning generally the awnings will remain the the the the shop owners like the awnings um one of them in the vicinity of the fire skape needs to be modified okay um and then one the last thing was that to provide Brook and mortar samples would we as a condition and we would come to see it in the field and we would be happy to do that okay so before we can open up for discussion now um we start with you Jerry I think well first of all I think I would I would approve it because it's going to look substantially the same and you're doing it for structural and safety reasons therefore it's necessary and you're going to you're have committed to replicate the materials that were in existence so they look substantially the same to me that meets all of our criteria that's Steve yeah I think that uh you're doing a a really good job at uh replicating of what's there it it'll look much nicer and it'll be interesting to find out which you were going to be doing with the the spandel glass above in the transom the transom um I skipped over number three for existing conductor heads are corrugated Alum and leaders have you um addressed those that's in Mr Conley's yeah um we we intend to put back leaders that are similar to what's currently there okay um Jason no I don't have any um other comments I think you addressed all the the concerns it seems very much like a a replacement in kind as Jerry mentioned it you know it's consistent with our guidelines I I think it's well documented and it's a good job you've done so thank you go forth Nick um I don't have much that hasn't been said already by my colleagues um you know of course if there's any I would recommend just referencing any historical photos you have as you're going through it see if there's any details that might have been replaced at some point since the building's construction that might be a good opportunity to replicate you know if you're redoing the whole facade now to make it more accurate to how it was built originally you know whether that be lentil details that might have been replaced in an inferior way you know compared to what was there originally but other than that I think it's a good plan and a good intent we looked really hard and we couldn't find a single photograph interesting um so I sounds as though every everyone is is in agreement with the work that you're proposing um I do think that the um we do need a written description for the for the West Side um we do need to see which you can uh coordinate with fawa in the office the brick and the and the mortar samples and uh what else was there I think that that was it and I take it that at that point you'll know uh with more um investigation how many Limestone lentils you'll be able to save what what do you how many do you think so to to clarify we will not be able to save any of the Limestone lentils on the East Building it looked it looked pretty looked pretty um they are all in in extremely bad condition as you can see in photograph number four on your packet um someone thought that caking multiple layers of cement over them was a good idea um so the lentils are Beyond repair the what we hope to be able to salvage are some of the two Limestone belt courses there's one below the second floor windows and one directly below the parit oh here yeah those those limestones appear are they in better shape yes far better shape um they're not perfect but we're hoping that some of them might be salvageable if not then then they'll be replaced okay but the goal is to salvage them all right thank any other further discussion before we have a vote do we want a window specification to go along with the brick and mortar samples oh good point glass sample maybe of like the color the shadow box good point the the um the windows the replacement windows do you know what you're replacing them with uh we expect that we'll probably use U Marvin's Elevate window their fiberglass clad wood window um we're not certain of that we're still checking pricing of various options okay and then what you intend to do with the transom too okay okay what type of um spandrel glass and the pattern you decide to and as I said it's possible that we what we'll be doing is is nothing at the moment okay all right but just so we so we know okay all right so follow do you have those all those down um so would uh make a motion to a little bit now sorry this time is up would you like to uh make a motion would someone like to make a motion uh we'll vote on this no we'll vote on this first so P would you uh call the rooll uh because we're voting to accept the application all right and then we'll make a motion all right okay so should I follow yes so we're voting to accept the application as presented with the conditions that we've just outlined well we need a motion first that is the motion that is the motion sorry yes what she said so I'll make a motion to approve the application with the conditions um set forth in the record um and in uh Mr Connelly's report okay second second okay yeah and so all in favor do we take a r uh I think we take R we take roll sorry all right so Kathleen Bennett yes Ste stepen Rooney yes John ryet yes Michael Graham is not here Gerald Sweeny yes Nicholas Juliano yes Jason Hinman yes okay great thank you thank you when do you anticipate I know the scaffolding is up now uh yes it when do you anticipate to actually start on it um our goal is March we'll see if that happens okay yeah we we've been itching to get going so I think if nothing else is safety isue that must be it's alarming stable but uh yeah we we'd like to get that scaffolding down so all right thank you very much thank you okay then okay excuse me next up is referral to the board of adjustment from the board of adjustment for application 2874 6-13 eie Street uh would you like to come forward and are you the only ones what's that are you the only ones testifying uh just two of us yeah okay all right well we're waiting to get set up um the subject property is a 1 and A2 acre lot with Frontage on label Street Erie Street in Oak Place just west of the New Jersey transit property contains two separate buildings including a two-story former industrial building now occupied by a variety of businesses and a separate two-story building that previously contained a restaurant a parking lot with a total of 73 parking spaces is located on the property and is shared by the various use uses on site um the 19 93 use variance of parking variance was granted by the board of adjustment and they to permit a theater Studio performance facility in 1996 the site plan approval and a parking variance was granted by the planning board to enlarge the building at 2 eie Street in 1996 a use variance to expand the theater use at 6 eie was approved by the board of adjustment in 2002 an amended site plan to expand the restaurant in two Erie Street was approved by the planning board this plan included a total of 81 on-site parking spaces and uh the applicant proposes to convert 6,000 ft of space in the larger building uh to a dance studio the plan also reconfigures the parking and circulation configuration to increase the number of parking spaces it will include a number of uh uh compact parking spaces handicapped parking spaces and then different lighting now historically let me just find what where's on the this of course it's not here um this is in the uh proposed um labels proposed uh label Street um a historic district and um which just for the record is is has the resolution's been passed tonight and would be going forward to the council so tonight what we're looking at are changes to the exterior of the building uh specifically parking and some Landscaping so um with that that was the introduction um I welcome you two gentlemen if you could just identify and Miss Bower will identify who you are and what your relationship is in to the project and Miss Bower will swear you win sure good evening and thank you David Pac Chief Executive Officer of bdp Holdings the managing member of bdp 6 to10 Erie LLC which is the applicant thank you good evening my name is Alan Horwitz I'm the uh principal and owner of a business called Baseline architecture I'm the architect for the project thank you Mr and Mr um do swear or affirm that the testimony will provided uh tonight on this referral from the plan uh from the board of adjustment will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes go ahead so would you start with the description of what you're intending to do on the exterior of the building yeah maybe I'll just give a brief introduction as well to the project um you did a great job of it but I want to add a little bit more context and color um I think I know or know of a lot of you I'm David playc 11e resident of mon Clair uh four year uh four-year resident of this building uh we've been attending this building since 2019 and it's been a an interesting process to see the evolution over the last four to five years of various plans proposed for the space uh I think what we're really looking to do here is give the building in the property uh a little bit of love in TLC it's been lacking for a number of years um and I think the application is before you tonight because we are looking to bring the Sharon Miller academy for performing arts uh 28-year institution in Montclair Township to this property uh they are no longer able to stay in their current facility and uh we're very happy to be able to accommodate them here that the square footage of their space is about 5200 Square ft Allan can go into more details with about 800 square ft of mezzanine storage space the reason for the application is the dance studio use uh triggered a increased parking requirement uh which triggered the the site plan application um in conjunction with Sharon Miller's fit out there are some exterior fac facade improvements uh in addition to outside of the scope of this application some other exterior facade improvements and window replacements that we'll be making at the building that Allan will uh provide more insight to as well uh I think it's also important to note that in addition to Sharon Miller taking this space we've extended the leases of other tenants within this property and we are two to 3 weeks away from signing a lease for to Eerie Street which is the former restaurant space at the property as well so I expect to be seeing more of you as the months progress but very excited that this property that you know has been sitting idle unrecognized and unnoticeable by a lot of people in this town is going to be a vibrant and thriving uh property once again within the township thank you do you want to begin sure um I believe uh some PDFs have been uploaded to the system so I'll bring those up and show you what being proposed I think there's a hand mic mhone is yep right next to the computer is anything new that we need to Mark as an exhibit not have the application not okay okay as David said the um the application was for minor site plan so s plan Lang the primary doc sorry not on not on about now good good to go okay sorry about that yeah these are um elevations that we just recently prepared um based on on discussion about um could you hold it a little bit yeah is that better yes okay I'm sorry that's okay yes me um uh sure absolutely the I I can just I can describe to you what those are um cuz we what we did was uh okay I I didn't number them so it's going to be a little hard to um explain each one okay well our secretary will take care of that in terms of the record but there's seven items correct uh yes there are seven items but you may not want to look at all them because three the last three for example are interior renderings that we did for the the Sharon Miller space okay well however many you address that will be what A1 is okay all right sure okay and we'll keep track of that okay so I guess we should start with the existing conditions which is um this PDF here which is not fully loading let's try again there we go okay so this is a um a image of uh existing conditions of the facades of of the existing building across the top is the uh South elevation um that faces uh label Street uh the middle image is the East Elevation which faces out towards Erie Street and the right hand image is uh sort of a perspective view from um Eerie Street looking at the um right hand side of the building and the central side Central area of the building and then the lower image uh here is the west elevation which uh faces um Oak Place this is the oops what happened here not sure how to get rid of this just click off the page it should there we go okay so I think uh the photos show um fairly clearly that the the building is an amalgamation of of a number of different uh additions and changes that happened over the over the course of time the uh West facade seems to be the the one that's the most intact from the the original condition of the building is the one that we looked at as as guidance for um taking uh elements that were salvageable and U trying to treat them as authentically as possible the uh General scope for um that drove the project for Sharon Miller Sharon Miller is taking uh the area that's shown in the central photograph um the east facing facade and uh the uh south facing facade in this upper leftand photograph uh the scope of the work for Sharon Miller involves um altering the warehouse space that's on the inside of the building now to dance studio space so the three Overhead Doors here um are not appropriate for dance studio space that are being removed and they'll be uh replaced with uh exterior wall material that are consistent with the uh current construction of the the rest of the building uh these two exit doors actually remain they provide a secondary means of egress for the dance studios and then on here on the east side um facade uh the existing windows that are uh towards the South Corner are remaining in place uh a this existing door is not in a good location that supports the uh circulation for Sharon Millard's internal operations so that door is going to be removed and replaced with a a window to match the two existing ones and the window to the right of that is where the front door to the facility wants to be so that window is going to be removed and we're going to install a pair of double doors there to provide the main entrance to the dance studio on the West Side here uh kind of an interesting condition where uh the tenant's uh demising wall Falls kind of right in the middle of this uh overhead door to to the right uh and our Our intention is that come on let's go on here please no we're not interested in upgrading thank you and you know this facade as as I said is you know kind of has the um the the most uh Integrity in terms of um architectural character and what and we know we have to remove the overhead doors to make the um interior space appropriate for the Dance Studio Fit out so the intention is to remove the interior door the overhead doors excuse me um add new materials to um to repr proportion those openings to balance them out with the existing windows that are remaining and um create new windows uh in uh the area for um this area where where the um separation well is going to fall on the right hand side is going to be Sharon Miller's office herself and on the on the left hand side of that wall are going to be um office space for uh Dave's um headquarters and we have um a uh elevation drawing that shows those new proposed windows and and treatments which I can move to unless there's any questions about this I have a question in the planning memo on the photograph that that uh that were on the planning in the planning memo is it the this space that you're looking at on the top left is that this sorry is it this is it this space here yes yes okay which is the South isn't that the corner uh yes it's a South facade right okay so as I said it's um you know you see the the three Overhead Doors here which is really the southwest corner of the building yes and the two existing uh pedestrian doors okay thank you sure so let me close this um PDF and I'll open the um so that's PDF that we have where we show the proposed changes to these elevations oh can I interrupt you just a minute I just for the record notice make notice that Mike Michael Graham has arrived he's our our uh one of our commission members should I wait till the end of the presentation no yeah okay sorry for the interruption no problem seems to be responding slowly to my PDFs okay let's try again there we go close that so we see the whole thing okay we used as I said the the west elevation to give us guidance for how to treat the the the rest of the building since that's the one that has the the greatest amount of of character and authentic elements from the original building and in the top image on this PDF you can see the existing condition of that facade again you see the the two different size Overhead Doors here on the right uh we have a couple glass block windows on the first floor and some vinyl uh double hung Windows above them in the main part of the brick facade uh there are um really very nice archtop masonry openings that are infilled with very bad vinyl windows the windows don't don't fill the masonry openings and they are um patched in with additional vinyl siding to kind of fill in the gaps between I guess whatever Windows they had on hand at the time and where the masonry openings was so our our proposal is to remove the um the the poor quality and inappropriate materials to the um character of the building and infill the full masonry opening with new aluminum windows um that are uh much more substantial and certainly more uh in keeping with the uh the um uh facade elements that are worth preserving similarly on the uh the non- brick portion of the building we're you removing the overhead uh doors infilling those areas with um like materials from the existing wall construction matching the um the concrete coating that's in that area of the building and then we're going to repaint that whole facade to give it a uniform uh organized consistent appearance uh we added new windows here that match the uh dimensional uh sizes of the existing Windows uh just to create again a a some type of a standardized geometric line to to the building to give it some uh some proportionality and we're also adding a couple of new entry canopies we have a new main entrance door here for Dave's um company and a new a main entry door here which is going to be for future tenants and those canopies replace the um the curved fabric canopies that are currently on the building which are in very poor condition and these will be um metal um canopies with uh tie rods back to the main facade and to give it a um reinforce the industrial and Warehouse character of of the building on the bottom of the sheet you can see our material swatches the existing brick of the the main facade uh kind of a a light gray warm gray paint color that will um go over the existing uh stucco treatment uh we try we selected this color to make it uh compatible and tie it into a lot of the light gray tones that we' see in in the mortar of of the existing brick uh here's a picture of what the design intent or basis of design will be for the canopies very um slick or stream I should should say streamlined metal canopy with tie rods that support it back to the building and uh some uh black colored aluminum frame Windows to replace an infill where um the the older uh inappropriate windows are going to be removed that's that's the West facade I believe let's see if I can I scroll down how do I scroll down here bar that's yeah okay this is page two of of the PDF uh this shows the um the south facing elevation um again on the top is is the existing condition or what's going to be demolished this is the elevation that faces the parking lot that separates this building from the uh the restaurant building at the other side of the property there's an existing uh uh canopy uh which is also in uh generally poor condition it's kind of listed in supp Port as you can see in the drawing and the roofing materials that are on it are of poor quality the intention is to remove that canopy um repair and restore the facade including the parapet wall that is is um broken at the end at the um corner here on on the Eerie Street side so continue and replace the parapet um paint facade because this is there's no brick on this facade this is all just a stucco PL uh plaster treatment over whatever uh existing materials are used for the exterior wall uh so this just gets painted and new canopies go over the new entrances the entrance on the right here is currently being used by a fitness studio uh in the building and the canopy that's shown here on the left is for a um a new entrance for new tencies in the building are you replacing those windows too at the top that Top Line of window yeah selectively some some of there's some glass block uh in in some of these areas which again is not in great condition and not really consistent with the other character and Pary elements of the building so we're going to remove the glass block there was some debate about that back and forth um and then we decided that the right thing for the building to give it a more consistent appearance with its with its um character is to remove that block and install Windows that are that are more consistent with the U the windows on the other side and the and the upper course that upper level those that line of Windows that yeah these this is a a partial second floor of the building it's it's um we we grade it out because it's set back very far from from the main facade that's probably a 30 or 40ft setback so uh we see it obviously in the elevation drawing but uh you have to be very far away from the building to see any hint of that um if you're actually walking around the property uh those are existing double hung Windows which are in I would say fair to average condition and at the moment they're they're at a scope there's no intention to address those at at this time do you have a picture of those of that facade I it's here I believe this is it right um yes that's correct Bott okay that's this one thank you okay and then there's one other image in this uh PDF which I'll scroll down to this is the the South facade that we were discussing before again the top image shows the uh existing um three overhead doors and the The Proposal here is to remove those doors um replace the material the uh and infill the openings with with uh like materials for the current existing wall we're going to include two clear story windows at the top of those masonry openings to provide some natural light into one of the dance studios that that we're uh building for Sharon Miller and also on the right hand side um you see this is actually kind of a a composite drawing because these are the two existing exit doors that are providing second moans of ESS for the dance studios we're going to cover them with a new canopy and also provide a a railing and a ramp to make an Ada accessible um exit uh pathway from those Studios they're they're raised up above the grade of the parking lot because we we're doing a um a specialized uh flooring treatment for the dance studios it has a a a sandwich that you lifts it up high enough that we need to put in a small ramp to return the uh the exit Pathway to GD the middle drawing here is the east facing elevation the existing condition here you see the two existing windows on the left the existing entry door and another existing window to the right of that door the glass block that sort of wraps around this this existing door that's in the corner of of that facade our proposal is the next drawing down which shows the the two windows on the end remaining uh the door uh existing door being removed and replaced with a another window to to emulate the two existing ones in terms of dimensional uh size and uh configuration the new double door entry for the dance studio and on the right uh again taking out the glass block replacing it with um a similar window to the new ones um on the Jaron Miller side again to tr try and establish some some degree of balance and and visual consistency to the elements new canopies over Sharon Miller this is too small to see from where you are we have the U Sharon Miller refers to the organization as smappa Sharon Miller academy for performing arts and there their logo is shown on on the fascia of that canopy can I just ask you just said it's to the the East facade you don't mean that it faces Eerie Street this is still the continuation on the parking lot uh no this this facade this this lower drawing that I just described is east facing facade this faces out towards eie Street oh it does okay all right and then again at the bottom you see the material swatches for the uh the gray color paint um again there's no brick on this facade this is all just a a parged over um stucco type cementitious finish so we're just going to paint it do you have a picture of that a current picture um not in these PDFs um okay I can probably the first PDF that you showed it's the center picture to sorry yes that's right thanks Dave um I I can close out of this unless there's other questions about it do we have these PDFs no no okay get done back to the well we have to these are recommendation a little this is a little shadowed and hard to see but the the uh the center picture here on the top shows the existing I of that facade and you said the plan was to paint a portion of it uh we intend to paint all of it you're going to paint all of it uh what well I guess color is not our purview so okay well it's it's kind of a Battleship Gray right now and it's it's splotchy it's not consistent and um in in the other PDF I showed a paint swatch that is proposing a a warm light gray that picks up on the gray coloration of the mortar and the brick of the mortar and the brick so you're going to be painting over the brick itself no brick the only thing we're going to paint is is the stucco finish got it okay so before we before we start with questions I was just trying to um you know ascertain which which facade we're looking at because even if I were to come up there I could see that oh PA you have some pictures oh that's great okay let just pass this yeah please I'm not sure I made enough for everyone I wasn't sure how many that's fine oh I see see this is I was afraid it was the uh the 1907 building yeah it it's we need to see these cuz it's difficult to I understand man I I do have hard copy on on a large scale presentation board that I can display if if if that helps as well you bring it can you put it right here I can that would be great okay that would help with questions so thank you okay but yeah I have two questions of that let's just let's let's about where the where the facades are or questions about no no I I just want to I didn't think we were sent any of these things anything related to the facade Improvement which is probably the focus of what we should be looking at right I would helpful okay so Janine you have the these new this is a new okay okay yes that's great thank you yes okay do you have anything else to add to your testimony no no okay so then we'll open it up for questions from the commissioners of you so Jerry mine is part of an observation the descriptive materials we received described the project as only interior um redesigned to convert it for for a use as a dance studio so I don't think that see anything relative to the exterior but you've described the facade improvements the facade improvements could you list all the things that are going to visual uh that can be seen from the outside so we know what all the improvements are would you mind grabbing the microphone please uh the handheld please thank you you mean as they relate to the dance studio project yes no as it relates to the facade the the facade what you're we have to now give recommendations to the zoning board so we're really not concerned with the that's why when I read this it was all about the interior that's why I I questioned what we were actually going to be looking at and it was a facade and it turns out that it is a facade so you need to improvements and so what Mr Sweeney is asking is is a line you know Point list yeah okay no I I'd have to say our jurisdiction relates to what's visual or can be seen from the outside not the inside which is the bulk of the materials actually I think all the materials the plans we have are are all interior Renovations I don't think we had anything exor but now I just need to know what it is it looks like it's a substantial Improvement now we need to know what they are would you like this as a guide yeah you want to borrow it well no I'm familiar with it okay all right I thought you might want it while you were speaking so I understand the question and I I'll say that the um the exterior improvements are related to the interior fit out work that's being done so you know door replacement that I described on the East Elevation is related to the interior renovation for the dance studio project so on on this elevation right here that I'm that I'm pointing to this is the east facing elevation the scope of exterior Improvement for this facade is um replacement of that uh door the existing door converting it to a window replacement of that window converting it to a door and then painting the facade I mean is it fair to say that what you're proposing is essentially outlined on A600 a601 and a602 yes I believe those those cheats are they show the scope of the project right so it's all just what's listed here okay thank you yes M I think I think it's important to point out too the scope of what you're being presented tonight is outside the scope of the Sharon Miller space we thought it prudent though given the extent of the improvements we're looking to make to show you the cohesive fa facade improvements not just the eastern wall and the southern facing wall and a portion of the Western Wall applicable to the Sharon Miller space but the entire package of what we're looking to do to the project or to the building okay thank you so with respect to that and it might be more of a question for Fara and and Janine since this is zoning board um application and you know basically what we received beforehand is what I assume went to the zoning board it was all just the sh Sharon Miller portion how do these facade improvements fit in with the application that's going to be before the zoning board I mean is that part of that approval or is this just conceptual what you're looking to do down line you address that to council and the assistant planner I'm not sure if you want me to answer but you keep looking at me I'm happy to chime in I thank you it was more of I I wasn't sure who who could answer so I was opening up to everyone it's a good question um when you have an application referred from the board of adjustment you are to determine um what the zoning um ordinance applications are that are within your scope that you want to um advise the Zoning Board of and the zoning uh ordinance applications that are within your scope it seems to me based on what the based on the presentation that was made relate to Aesthetics in other words what's purely within um this commission's purview as to the exterior changes so if you wanted to say to the zoning board a you know we don't think that door should be a window and we don't think that window should be a door for reasons that are within the purview of the HPC you could say that and then the zoning board could take under advisement based on whatever the applicant's reaction uh well that's great advice but we don't agree with that because of the Interior changes that are going to take place because of the dance studio we understand why the applicant wants to do that or they might say the opposite of that or whatever they would say but I think you know based on the presentation that I've heard they're just the Classic zoning um ordinance um aspects which for us are aesthetic MH that's what I'm getting because we're not commenting unless you want to comment on um the reason and I think the sole reason that you testified that they're before the zoning board which is the increase in the parking requirement that's correct okay so that's that's what yeah I I wanted just some clarification cuz you know if this is all brand new I didn't know if you had intended to even show this to the zoning board or if they were just looking at the parking the interior and what yeah I I think it was really really supplemental um you know we were advised to that we're going to appear before your your group this evening um so we actually kind of um spent the last week assembling these materials in in to give you an understanding of what the what the scope of the project is going to be the application before the zoning board is really specific to the increase in parking that that Dave described in his opening statement okay but in terms of the project as a whole this is all getting done once you get the zoning board approval you're getting permits for everything okay yeah that's the intent yeah and just to clarify that the the application was triggered by the building permits for the sh Sharon Miller space we have probably three successive sets of permits that will be submitted in the coming months for the rest of the improvements but Sharon Miller is under a time frame under the gun as you say to to get this done as quickly as possible so she can get into the space before she loses her existing home okay okay so Jerry do you have any other questions no actually I I would have comments on it but but I just want to make sure that um the these were not submitted as part of the application anyway this is the first time you've turned it over to us supplemental for the purpose of meeting you're not asking us to comment on these things tonight no we are we are yes no they're asking to do that or they ask the application we I was told we're only looking at the interior use which but that that's not what we really need I know that's what I said before it's not ours and the parking doesn't seem to be ours either so this you has this been submitted as part of an application to anyone no it has not okay so it's just shown to us tonight right a what I I don't understand what is uh we looking at tonight then there's been no application to us okay it's recommendations to the zoning board okay as to the exterior as to the exterior facade and the you know what you would say improvements or changes let's say changes to the facade okay I my comment is normally we get things before the meeting right and we get a chance to review it think about it we probably can look at it this thing but it doesn't seem that we should be doing anything except we can look at we can give you some initial comments as that's about the scope of what we can do is that what we're going to do right okay where does it go from here though come back to us no unless it's a written to and and what we've done in in other applications where you know there are open questions on Design Elements we asked the zoning board to impose a condition that they go back to what the design Review Committee with you know um uh you know materials or other changes that come out of the Zoning Board hearing so that at least a portion of the commission could get um you know a a final review on what the application is going to be so I mean I again moving ahead we're still you know asking questions but I mean I I think that's something that we should impose for this appli we provide our comments to the board and then ask that you know it comes back to the the subcommittee okay so Steve questions um I know that we're only supposed to be looking at the Sharon Miller part portion of it the existing building are you going to be doing more work on the other elevations we just see the west elevation we see the West the South and the east west south and east those are the elevations that are proposed for changes or improvements but I you're asking is there any other work supplement to this supplement on any of the other elevations of the building no not a good any other my question is um are there any other uh windows or doors any other um Brakes in the in the walls or you're using all the existing walls and doors and not breaking through the exterior the the only Brakes in the exterior are the ones that I described everything else is existing to remain oh you did describe where where were they well I described the removal of the three overhead doors that are part of the dance studio proposal and replacement of two of them with clear story Windows above oh yeah but you're not you're not um breaking into the wall no there's no no no new openings are being made that's what I'm asking asking are there any new yeah any new openings in doors or wall or yeah doors or Windows um few well well the one that I described we're we're we're changing the location of the entrance for Sharon taking taking a window and turning it into a door taking a door and turning it into a window okay um I believe that's the only change to um to the exterior openings except for the aside from the other ones and that changes right there where that canopy is on the bottom the bottom it's right that right there is that where the change is uh no that's that's an existing D is going to remain but we're going to remove the canopy and and put a new canopy over it yes okay thank you questions Jason no John no nick no no okay um so now we are up for discussion and again we we have to um focus on the exterior elevations facade the changes and they will'll be on the south I'm sorry the West the South and the East but uh basically on the building it it the building that is that cinder block that you're that you're painting uh primarily it's it's a mix if it's we walked around on the inside you would see some concrete block you would see some brick tooth into it in different parts You' see different size Block it's it's really quite the amalgam of of different materials right and but all of the original brick which I see right here uh that's all remaining I that was part of Mr Sweeney's question it's in it's in Fairly good condition it's it's okay so the original brick remains okay we'll open up for discussion Mike do you have anything uh I just am generally supportive of the change um I think it cleans up a lot of elements that need it um and I think it restores it to what it closer to what it originally looked like that's those are my comments thank you that was the that's definitely our intent and uh Nick um yeah I mean I would EO Mike's comments um I think the windows could benefit from more funds on them a little B more two not really typical for industrial building it's more of like a wood frined house style light pattern um I'm protect myself I can't help but just draw on drawings I just sketched in some additional light patterns on the windows and I think you know it's really good that we're cleaning up a lot of just thege and the building but once they are all cleaned up gray you know help a little plane and maybe some additional mons like more that industrial industrial more of the neighborhood okay generally thank you John um I'm also generally supportive of this I it's all really great and I think the the new windows in the brick building to remain that's a big Improvement I would tend to fill in those two big garage doors on the light with brick and not with stucco I realize it doesn't match the stucco right next to it but there's the brick in the facade there's I think there's to add more stucco to this building is not necessary even though you're trying to make it all look the same I got it um I'm not you know when I see these perspectives where's the perspective this perspective looks a little deadly to me because it's all stuck on Gray I think they more that you could break up the facade in some way you Improvement but there you go yeah I think there's a landscaping plan that's going to detract from the the gray faad yeah so I would you know I again that's my suggestion for those two doors that instead they'd just be filled in with brick and I was stuck out brick to not replicate but you know aspire to The Brick to the left that's it that's all my comments Jason no I don't have any other comments ie with uh commissioner Juliano on his comments about the uh the windows I have a question the Landscaping plan is that something that you have we're preparing it uh in anticipation of the the zoning board meeting we don't have that tonight uh would that be something that maybe you'd come back to for the uh design Review Committee just to look at I that youe preference sure okay I think that would be a good recommendation St no I think this is going to be a a great Improvement to an invisible building and um echoing um Mr ry's comments maybe changing the texture of where the garage doors are and brick mimicking that there is a brick building there I think that'll really work nicely so good luck looking at the before and after pictures I I think it's a there's a substantial Improvement to both the uh the brick building and to the design of the stacco side building however it be uh uh certainly the preference if there would be some kind of effort to make the stuckle building look like it's part of the other building right now looks so different it was an add-on I I understand that we can't ask you to do it but but that's the only thing I the the overall design is an improvement but the appearance of that stucco building is less than thrilling no no disagreement my my those are my comments um I should have asked us in questions but now that I'm actually looking at the the picture here the railings that are on the top on the roof what are they for oh I'm sorry those are temporary safety railings for for the new roof that's being installed on the building oh but so that those will be removed yeah they're not uh permanent by any stretch okay and then maybe one suggestion we would have which is a a suggestion we normally do is to clean the uh the brick that which is something we would recommend that you that they to the zonning board yeah I think the brick would would benefit from that for sure right right um okay great um so any other no comments so the comments and that we were going to send to the to the uh zoning board was that we're generally in agreement with with with the uh changes the improvements that they're making to the building the um that we'd like to see of a final windows and um the doors windows and uh and they're different types of Windows um but the uh idea of putting more muttons into the windows on the uh uh it within the old brick building itself and then to see what's actually going to happen with the um garage doors with the infill with the the garage doors and if we could uh ask you to come back with the Landscaping plan just to look for the design review just to see how it relates to what you were saying about the stucko the stucko and how you think it's going to alleviate that sort of you know for lack of better word I would say dead space but that what John was talking about the gray area the gray area the blank walls blank walls are there any other recommendations to the zoning board no good luck yeah okay so I think this is a good project yeah thank you thank you very much all right thank you thank you good does anyone want to take a break yeah stick by I have to accus myself we're going to take a five minute break uh for the next do you hear the next application and Mr ryness will be recusing himself you please do the recitation get everyone sworn in all right you're on all right thanks Rick okay we are here uh uh hold on I'm sorry this is a referral another referral from the board of adjustment application 2673 8 Hillside Avenue the bravitas group and this is a um a uh a plan for a minor subdivision and site plan the subject property is in L well the subject property is in l-shape at the corner of Hillside Avenue in Orange Road and we all know it as one of the grand landmarks of uh great landmarks of Monclair the uh First Church of Christ Science I always get that wrong but um this uh the church itself was built in uh 19 1926 and is identified as a potential Historic Site in the master plan and is included in the 1982 New Jersey historic sites inventory uh the two-story Building essentally located on the lot and the survey from 1982 states that The Rustic texture of the stone and the formality of design provides an unusual combination in this large Church office comp Lex on Hillside Avenue the architect was Charles F fauler out of Chicago and he and his son designed over 30 churches uh for Christ scientists all over the United States so it's an absolutely beautiful building you've done a great job in uh keeping it beautiful and we thank you very much so this is a um now you're on to another project with the um but we're here to get give our recommendation for that to the zoning board so with that I would like to um for you to introduce yourselves please uh for the record and Miss Bower will uh uh swear you in great um my name is Bob silver I'm the CEO of the batas group and we're located at 105 Grove Street here in mon CLA and then my partner Brian Silver managing director of positions and strategic initiatives at the broadcast group and who will you both okay so Mr Sil Mr Sil will you uh swear or affirm yes ma'am yes and then I think Mr bangs is going to testify as well but you he's already sworn in correct yeah okay okay thank you so um you would you we've just received a presentation corre uh PowerPoint presentation will you be um going through it or yes um so we're going to kind of team this if if you don't mind um Brian and I will kind of give you the background and the strategy of our application with the zoning board and then Jackson will go through the architectural details and the site plan and we'll take any questions that you might have and as you all know um Paul ciones is our architect he's under the weather today and we really wanted to thank Jackson for pitch hitting uh uh he he came on board Monday on this so uh but he's very well trained he served as an intern on this commission so Bravo Jackson um so who are we the bravitas group uh specializes in the acquisition and repurposing of architecturally interesting buildings um we've done in this town we've repurpose six major structures uh brass works at 105 Grove Green Works on Grove Street uh Academy Square the former Katherine Gibbs school Vault 491 at 491 Bloomfield um at the national is our latest project and we actually a recipient of your reward we're very proud proud of that and then we're going to talk about 62 Orange 62 Orange is a single family resident adjacent to the property that we're about to discuss uh can we have the first slide Jackson please uh the PowerPoint is going to follow exactly what you have uh in the handout that Brian gave you um so let's talk about the site itself um8 Hillside Avenue is the site of the Christian Scientist church that was built by 192 in 1926 designed by Charles fauler um it was a thriving Church uh from 1926 through probably the early 70s uh the congregation uh began to to diminish significantly over that time in 2010 the congregation put the church up for sale um at the the first thought was is that the church could only be used for a house of worship um we approach the board at that particular time and said this has been your home for almost a hundred years um we would like to keep you in your home uh we would like to reduce your footprint and we'd like to have a building and turn that into Botique office space and the board of directors of the church the Board of Trustees uh voted to do that and we purchased it in 2011 and then we did a gut renovation in about 12 months time uh preserving the exterior um it's very hard to notice but in that Waymouth Granite that it's this is called Waymouth Granite still quarried in massachusett uh we have cut 19 windows into that facade and nobody would know that they weren't there and it's probably I I think our favorite repurposing project um it is if we could go to the next slide Jackson it's situated um on the corner of orange on the east side is orange uh the bulk of the property is in really the lower third of Hillside Avenue it is in a R1 Zone a little bit shocking because the R1 Zone on Hillside uh there is very little single family homes um if you look at this um particular zoning map um to the east is multifam to the north is Hillside School to the Northeast is the prek center and to the West the southwest side of the street is is a significant Garden uh apartment complex just to the west of that is another multif family across the street is the Monclair Inn and to the west of that is another multif family so um you have this property surrounded by uh significant uses um what are proposal is that you're going to hear tonight um is in that l shap the dog leg on the corner of orange and Hillside is a lot and if we go to the next slide let's go to the next slide and then come to back to that Jackson so in originally that lot was a separate lot in 1955 the church acquired 60 orange and it became one lot on eight Hill for eight Hillside for church use at the time they in 1955 they purchased two homes they purchased 60 orange and they uh purchased I think it was 28 Hillside where the current west parking lot is and that it was such a big congregation they were going to expand to the west and to the East and that was the reason that they purchased both those lots uh they never did that um subsequent to 1955 it began the slide of the congregation it once had 700 congregants I think they're down to about 40 today uh in their space so there was this house that was there um we don't have any we search the records trying to find just like Jackson tried to find for the last application photos of that went to the Historical Society no photos but we do have uh this site plan and we have a survey from 1955 that I'm going to show you in a minute that was the house that was on that lot as far as the survey go back to the next slide um this is a historical photo um and it's in your packet it is a view from Orange Road West to St Luke's place and you can see in the foreground in the left uh Corner the um former what we're calling the old St Luke's Church unfortunately HPC didn't exist in the day and that beautiful structure doesn't exist today so you know I commend you guys for doing your job in keeping these structures and the reason that I'm pointing to this map is um we went back and reviews reviewed the housing stock that existed at the turn of the century um because we wanted to design a new home that we are proposing to put on 60 orange where we are this whole application is about uh building a two family home on the corner of Orange in Hillside and you're going to see in a moment that we've taken elements uh from this photo and we've have included it in the uh in in the rendering that you're about to see in the design of the house um can you go to the next slide please this is uh the survey of 1955 it was used right prior to demo um Jackson is going to lay lay the previous house onto the site plan showing how it looks uh on the new site plan and what I wanted to point out on the um north side of this property you'll see a bay window on the sou on the east on the I mean the north side you'll see that bay window on the east side you'll see a porch um it was very important for us to take those elements include it in the design of the new home um before I turn it over to Jackson the reason that we desire to put another two family structure on this site is one uh we think there is a huge need for middle housing in Monclair um it will be a a three bed bedroom with an office three and a half bath two family house each will mirror each other um we are targeting folks that want to downsize want to stay in Montclair don't need a huge house on the hill and we're also targeting Brian and Nikki who have just moved into town and want to have the walk ability and and kind of be able to live and walk and take advantage of all the amenities um we think putting a single family on this lot is not a good idea um and we also think that creating two units rather than one is a much more sustainable approach to housing um what I'd like to do before we take it excuse me before we take any comments let's go through the renderings the site plan and then we'll answer any other questions is that is that okay Kath yes thank you Jackson you're up so um we'll go so uh I'm very familiar with this location naturally having spent quite a few years working in the building that Bob was just describing um so here we have a survey of the entire property it includes the existing Church the walkways the parking lot as well as the proposed house uh that we were describing along with with its walkways the patios and the driveway uh as you can see the proposed house is about 53 ft away from the church therefore the church will be minimally impacted by the construction of this new house moving on to the next slide and I'll zoom in a little bit [Music] um this is the same survey except I've transposed the proposed house which is in a blue outline over the prior house that we described which is a red outline uh that way you can see how the two relate to each other um so the proposed house is in generally the same location that there was historically a structure uh however it's actually a little bit smaller and a little bit narrower than the previous house was the proposed house is 36 ft wide at the front the orange Road front uh and it's about 40 ft wide at its narrowest Point um what we're going to ask the zoning board in the future is is to reestablish this lot on the corner with the lot line following the lot lines of all of the houses that front Orange Road the way it used to another thing that this map illustrates that I want to point out before moving on to the renderings is that this corner lot is unusual it's significantly wider than all of the other Lots fronting Orange Road in the area it's also not as deep because of Orange Road running at an angle Le relative to the street [Music] grid so here we have several colored renderings of the proposed house uh as you can see we worked very hard to make sure that the massing of the house was appropriate for its corner lot and for the neighborhood we oriented the house with its Gable facing Orange Road like most of the houses nearby we also picked up the detail at the Gable rakes of the house next door where there's a nice little flare and a curve there we wanted to Echo that uh we included a decorative Gable brace on the main Gable end and then echoed that on the Dormers that face the side uh speaking of those Dormers below them as Bob mentioned the house that was once there from the map we from the survey we can see that it had a prominent bay window uh facing Hillside Avenue we decided to draw on that element uh to have in this case two bay windows uh that face Hillside Avenue to Echo that uh we plan on using high quality materials throughout the siding will be either painted cedar or fiber cement uh siding the windows will be painted wood or wood or clad wood or they'll be similar fiberglass everything will be all of those windows will be simulated divided lights they'll all look correct and historical in their appearance going deeper into the details uh here are the proposed plans and elevations of the homes as Bob mentioned uh while there's many while there's many different types of buildings in this neighborhood we thought it would be appropriate for this house to generally resemble a single family home as seen from the front so to do that taking advantage of the corner lot we were able to design the house with the two units backing up to each other instead of being side by side that way um a passer by walking along on Orange Road would see what generally resembles a single family house someone walking down the street on Hillside Avenue would see the the other unit's elevation uh and see the same thing a house that faces with its front door facing sideways um so each unit will have a nice open front porch um and then that will open to a an open kitchen living dining room area on the first floor and then upstairs on the second floor and on the the half Story the finished attic if you will above will be the additional bedrooms and study that Bob mentioned um so that's really the design in a nutshell we'd be happy to answer any questions you may have about the specifics thank you very much uh why don't we start with Jerry give question we'll start with [Applause] questions so I to make make sure that I understand this this represent right now you're just looking to to obtain approval to to subdivide the the uh the one lot that's now a co-joined lot and to separate off a lot that used to be a separate lot that's the first thing you're looking for for approval that that's one approval that's correct second the picture that you have here of this of the uh building in the diagram show that's the is that the final design of U of what you the the rendering the final design of what you anticipated that's where we plan to build okay if we get approved okay those are my questions thank you I appreciate that of course thank you Steve where do I apply um yeah I mean at first glance of was a little this is questions questions questions um I don't have any questions really um I have a question how is how does the height of the Gable uh uh is it higher than the house next to it or are the gables the same height I I'm not sure about next to it but it's under 35 ft because we didn't need a variance you don't okay you don't need a VAR there's no variance for the height for this building and then the the the um the the facade that fronts on Hillside Avenue I I how what what how long is that from like the porch the porch post to the Kathleen going from east to west the length of the house yes just and how it relates I don't need the exact number of that just how it relates to the neighboring house okay so the neighboring house I own 62 Orange okay um and by zoning requirements it is set back from the front of that house so the the 62 will be in front of that and I'm not sure exactly the length it's a little bit longer than 62 Orange I think no it's actually not including the porches at 61t and what about the on 62 Orange deck to front porch is what including the deck it's the same exactly the same oh the same okay I didn't know if it was you know appreciably larger no thank you Jason um yeah I just have a question this is not so much on the architecture just more of the circulation it's a very interesting concept um backing the two unit units but my question is if you have the driveway coming off orange for off a hill off a hillside I'm sorry and the what is I think it's unit 2 fronts orange how does the occupant they walk around through that Courtyard area yeah so the the there's tandem parking there's two lanes on the back and they really have to come down the side walking around sidewalking okay you'll see on the side of the house on the front of orange where the porch is there's a sidewalk right off the porch that goes to Hillside so they go out that sidewalk up the sidewalk to the driveway and then um access to the basement is that interior or no we we have Bill code doors um on so the the one for the front unit is on the east side uh setting south side and the one for the rear unit is on the West Side okay there is interior access though there's B and interior access gotcha thank you thanks just another quick qu the house the or the house that was there that was taken down that dated from the 1950s no no I I I don't know exactly where it dates I sense it was late 1800s early 1900s taken down in 1955 oh and taken down so then the that that the the original can you go back to the sandborn map right that's what that's 1934 s so it has to date prior to 34 but does that does that indicate that there was a house with a an adjoining office a dwelling in an office correct yeah I I I guess it must have been some professional office as part of that maybe one of those old doctor's offices yeah I I I was just curious about that okay thank you of course Nick um I don't have any questions Mike no additional questions no okay um and so we then will start on um comments shall we go start with you Jerry then my comment is the uh develop ER has a good history actually a phenomenal history in monair so we give uh added Credence to your plans second the pictures show a building that that is consistent with the character of the existing buildings the deviation from uh zoning that it's two family seems probably consistent with the use and does not affect in my view our our u u user support of it in other words whether it's two family or not given the area a lot of the area is multi family so I generally view is this we would support the uh the application thank you m your comment about how it fits in with the neighborhood yeah and I think the character of the appearance of the building that's what I asked is a building a of the the design that they plan to put in he said that was and I thought it looks consistent with the character of the building in the area neighborhood okay thank you Steve yeah I I agree I think that the building is really very consistent to what the neighborhood is and when I first looked at this I didn't realize this is a replacement you know um I thought at first looking at it oh it's ruining the The View Shed from Orange Road but then I realized by going in through this little deeper that this is actually a replacement building there had been there one before the 1955 HBC is making us replace it but I was on the board then but Steve you you remind me of something cuz I just drove by there what will happen to the sculpture garden so that's a really good question um and we're you know I'm I love the sculpture garden it's important U Can you put this site plan up so um there's a pointer here if you need it I don't how to use that Brian Point yeah Brian will tell you where the sculps are going is the handheld microphone available as well so that that big rectangle right there mhm um is going to be the new home of the hillside sculpture garden um that will get moved there and it it what we wanted to make sure is that we had still had great sight lines from the corner of orange and church and Hillside uh and we'll also use part of the wall uh for the sculpture garden the sculpture garden is a rotating it's not a permanent uh exhibit and we'll replace it about annually um so that's where it's going to go what could you point it out again I've I've got I got lost is this rectangle right here okay just to the west of of where we're proposing the two family building right on Hillside in front of the in front of the the the church I'm calling it the church but and it's hard to see it but that is a topo that is an elevated yard so it'll have a nice elevation to it and that's a very big piece of land almost similar to where it is now right so okay thank you yep um uh I'm sorry did did did you comment I didn't comment yet s um overall I think it's a fantastic um design can we send any elast uh you know maybe seven years ago perfect because uh you know we ended up getting price out of Monclair so um I have one comment um but I'm sure it's something you prior thought about is going back to the circulation um it's something that I think the zoning board might might ask you about um with the main entrance for unit 2 on Orange um being so close to that intersection you know it's inviting um deliveries stopping right there poor weather the residents are going to park there unload groceries things like that I don't know what the solution would be for that but I think something St we have thought about it I I do agree that early in the morning on drop off Bus drop off and at the end of school that's the real busy time with a school there that's why you'll see the little turnaround in the driveway for safety so rather than backing into Hillside we've made that so that you can do a k turn and come out front into for a safety reason my concern is on orange though you're going to have people who are accessing that unit fronting orange stopping right there and it's just so close to the inter and I don't know if there's anything I think what will happen because you know um 62 Orange has the same problem next door the there is no parking from that driveway towards Hillside it actually is pretty safe for deliveries on Hillside and that's where the trucks stop okay yeah all right thank you that's all I had Nick um overall I think it's a great project um I think it's a really good example of responsible development you know it's no secret we have a housing shortage crisis in America right now um I think you're going to see a lot of zones that you know may not have been previously permissive of two families become permissive of them um I think this could be you know a trend moving forward particularly in Monclair um you know it's a good housing typology for people that are not somewhere for a full house yet for themselves but still want something a little bit more upgraded than an apartment um and I think it the design itself is really consistent with some of the historical homes you know in the neighborhood and just immediately to the left of it um so I'm in I'm in support of it great thank you yeah I have uh similar uh comments to my colleagues um I'm very supportive of the project I think it's a very thoughtful project um in particular I um agree with Mr Juliano's comment about uh uh the housing shortage especially in this town as well Monclair um I think it is an appropriate spot for a two family even though that's not necessarily our purview here um but uh overall I'm very supportive of this uh subdivision and the design of the the home that you're putting there thank you sir and I would just like to comment uh that I think it fits in really well with the neighborhood at first when I looked at it I thought it was a little bit um it wasn't derivative of all of the of the building the church building but then it's that church building is so unusual and so unique that how how how could you ever make anything that would be yeah we really wanted it to read to the and that's what I that's what you realize when you when you drive by and really look at it yeah but I think I was stuck in the sculpture garden saying oh no where was it going to go but even but even though the sculpture garden is moving I think that this is overall a great project of great use I love the idea of the mirror design I think that's really great that uh that uh uh and it fits in well with the neighborhood so can we just take the vote tonight yeah well we just send our recommendations to the zoning board so I think what you're hearing is that we're all favorable um uh we uh appreciate the uh deta you know the the idea of the resp of responsible development which what you're you know God knows we see very few very little of that um and as Mr Giuliani said good housing topology which I thought was a good uh a great uh quote so the building is consistent with the c with the character of the neighborhood and the design really uh you know Builds on the the historic elements and the context of the neighborhood so I think the issues I think you've thought the issues out really well with the uh driveway cuz I noticed the turnaround and the um you know the the garbage containers and and I think it that'll be fine I was just wondering that the people were going to are going to want to hang out on the on Hillside Avenue that's only thing that they can't go behind but that that'll be fine they can look at the sculpt it's interesting just as a sidebar um the renters at 62 Orange are also tenants at Hillside so they go out their back gate oh and their offic is next door it's kind of a really interesting thing so great neighborhood yeah I mean that's what they wanted you know work live and walk and shop so right well it's an exciting project thank you yeah thank you all right so I think we'll we'll send right up our recommendations we will take yes for an answer thank you when does it go before the zoning board uh the 7 7th yeah February 7th oh okay thanks for staying so late well thank you thank you thank you ja now we get into the fun stuff is John uh do he leave completely no he's still here yeah [Applause] um thanks again good night there he is okay John now did everyone F you sent a copy of the um let me by my [Applause] copy oh no well let me just give you a little history of the of what it is before I can I come across my copy um the um last year or two years ago maybe um the uh HPC worked on amending the demolition ordinance of the um of the H of the uh zoning uh ordinance uh in Monclair and um both Mr Sweeney and Mr Heyman worked on it and came up with a very good project however in the interim what happened is that we realized that there was a lot of what we're we call facade uh destruction going on prompted by something that was happening at a extremely historic house one of the most important houses of Montclair on Upper Mountain Avenue so that prop did a re-evaluation of the um uh destru of the uh demolition ordinance so a subcommittee was formed which were Mr Sweeney myself and Mr Graham and um I learned how to use a organize a zoom meeting and we met virtually I I think it was four times but I think what we did was we came up with some really good work and while I look for my uh I'm going to turn it over to Mr Sweeney and Mr Graham and maybe um you could start Mike and then we'll uh transition over to M Mr Sweeney and he can wrap it up okay um and just explain uh if you go through the this part here all right and what we're let me see if I have my copy here chair was the copy included in packet cuz I just uh I'm looking through my oh you don't have your copy on no I don't have it on my packet do you have an extra copy was it the same one that I sent you with my comments or were there additional comments CU I didn't no that was okay you didn't you didn't get one I didn't get no I was just working off my copy I believe that's it can I take a look yeah okay um would you have fa you have what I asked I sent it to you to ask and asked you to send it to the Commissioners could you resend that so the people that are on the computers can can pick it up that's where I got this cuz yeah the last thing I have is the one that you sent January 10th no there's an updated there's there's an updated C do you have that can you do that here it is okay so while we're waiting so that everybody's on the same page I just want to make another comment that as we were working through this we realized that the um application for C OFA needed to be updated as well so that the terminology would fit what uh we were actually talking about in the in the demo ordinance so we had we added a few changes to the CFA application um but the one thing that we need which isn't on there right now we have to talk speak to Janice about that is the fee schedule because there isn't a consistent fee schedule um for demolition I mean for all the applications of CNA just not the demolition so this has to be updated it's not as um rigorous I guess an update as or as the uh as the uh demolition ordinance but that we do know that this has to be updated um and with that do you you so I guess Sher we can address some of the our thought process some the changes I I have one from uh Mr um uh so uh We've noticed a couple of inconsistencies to start Mr Sweeney actually noticed it um that there were different definitions I believe of uh administrative officer um there was construction official and Zoning officer um we determined that uh zoning officer made more sense uh uh rather than the um construction official um so uh we went through the document to make that consistent uh we defined uh in kind replace [Music] um uh we determined the percentage to be uh because this is partial demolition uh because the elements of these facades uh can be uh just as important as the structure of the building itself uh we determined a smaller portion somewhere than we determined 15% would be an appropriate amount of the facade if it were to be removed that it would trigger coming before the uh commission uh to make sure that materials are being properly restored replaced in kind um or uh that they have a plan to do so and that we can have oversight um we also wanted to make sure that there were uh the uh we're not limiting ourselves just to local designations uh State and National designations um in our estimation um are um appropriate um uh uh structures or buildings that should be uh similarly protected so we added language uh um in several locations to indicate um so it's clear that it's not just local designations um that um need uh that warrant this protection um let me see if there's anything I'm missing it's it's been a hot minute since we reviewed this so I uh I may be missing some uh some of the elements um let's see Jerry if there's anything I'm missing I would be happy to turn the rest over to you I can give an overview uh before the the ordinance covered uh identified partial demolition but never had any requirement for it the first thing we did is we had a detailed and expansive definition as to what partial demolition was then we included a requirement that partial demolition would require an application but to make sure that we weren't uh overloading this thing we eliminated and we carved out any kind of emergency uh partial uh repairs any ink kind replacement because we said if the people are taking on something off and and but they're going to put it back on we don't need to look at it and then finally we had a section called low impact where we essentially an administrative officer the historic preservation office can look at it and say this change is not going to have an impact so therefore you don't need to do it in other words we our whole Focus was adding a clear definition to give advice to people as to what was covered but also clearly curving out a lot of things which we expect were routine and we're not going to have any impact on historic one of the things we talked about the building that all the work was done we never knew whether that was temporarily temporary or permanent uh it was described as done because they needed to do an investigation of the structural Integrity of the building and that you want that's part of preserving a building so we wanted to encourage that and not burden anyone so so I think the uh the uh the revisions we identifi things were inconsistent in the existing ordinance to straighten that out second we made it clear the definitions and we gave a lot of carve out so so it wasn't going to be unduly burdensome the thing that I think we all learned from this is the enormous complexity of writing or an amending an ordinance because you have to deal with all these different definitions and and referen changes yeah and um so it was a learning experience I think we all knew it was complicated but this was this we kept going back and we kept finding and ultimately end Jason found some additional things after we had gone through we thought we' we' found found all the things so it's a in our view a substantial Improvement and it would not be unduly burdensome to the town and I would just like to add that um we do um identify a historic preservation officer and that was sort of nebulous who that actually was well we we hope we we thought we knew Tom would do it but I think for our well now that we are hiring a new consultant that that has to be something that's in the RFP that they will become they will be they will be designated the historic preser preservation officer um now the officer it says here is designated by the manager so I don't know how we and maybe we can ask Janine about that the man how do we when we hire somebody well see that we we need to have a historic preservation officer who will identify when a histor when historic structure will if a if a demolition application comes before us and the historic preservation officer will be the one who makes that determination but what I have here if I'm correct is that it's designated by the manager so we hire I'm just wondering how that fits in with the r RFP and the new hire for our new consultant for the HPC okay so I haven't seen that RFP but we haven't created it yet oh well what is the how are you using the term manager I don't know it's just where did that come from where is that um is that something uh yeah it was added by ordinance uh 0-9 uh 21 um this do you know what section of the code this is from no oh I'm sure we just search it in the code well that was that was a question that we need to keep it in mind based on that it's the township manager I think it's a Township manager okay I'm sorry I'm I'm lost yeah so just tell me again because can you pass this down yeah so the the ordinance requires the hpo to be designated by the manager we want obviously the historic preservation consultant to serve as the manager so there has to be some qu Ser as Ser as the Ser as the officer so the manager would have to appoint the person that we hire okay where did the where did this ordinance establishing an historic preservation officer come from whatever that the ordinance numbers are at the bottom I see the ordinance numbers what was the I think it's it must be zoning okay but I don't know I don't know I should say I don't know okay nobody here recommended this no that's existing that's existing we're not we're not trying it's only 2019 you guys aren't didn't weren't born in 2020 where did this come from you literally have no idea I wasn't on the board engine okay you haven't out um just so you know as and as you know the historic preservation ordinance in whatever form is a zoning ordinance right and as a zoning ordinance it should have been referred to by Council for your comment wait the original demo ordinance that was around 2009 yeah and if I remember we we had the draft it went through several iter ations and then the council changed it changed it they changed it and then we had to go back and this is part of the process of tweaking things that went into so I think that was part of the C this was an amendment to the demo ordinance yeah okay 2019 okay this provision was struck down by the SP court and upheld by the Appel Division I believe in berardo versus Jersey City that but that was the powers of the officer to basically rule but that's just what the chair said she said that the hpo would be um determining the significance of the structure for which a demo application came in and that's the exact facts of the Jersey City case but in this case they just determine whether it's uh what is it low scale and can go to the minor applications committee versus the full commission you're saying that I just I'm not comfortable with that not because I'm not comfortable with what you're saying but because I haven't seen this before nobody forwarded it to me and so I didn't think about you know it in whatever the context is in which it exists right now I'm just very concerned and if I may um those are basically the kind of comments that I have on this ordinance and that is I don't believe that these changes for the very reasons that commissioner Sweeney said it's very complicated to write and and more complicated to amend an ordinance it's very complicated and I don't believe that these definitions even just starting with the definitions Hue closely enough to the municipal land use law and therefore on the very thing that's the most important just like the last um you know referred applicant said um this is not where we want to lose a case because because we stepped outside of the bounds of the municipal land use law the municipal land use law is actually quite good for us in terms of permit referral and review and so not only do you have definitions that are different than historic site and historic district which are the only two definitions in the municipal land use law you your jurisdiction is historic sites and historic district property within historic districts I was is the word property so I don't have to say everything out property within within historic districts but you yourselves are straight jacketing yourselves when you say things like has obtained local state or federal historic designation now I just understand from somebody who said on that side of theas why you did that and that's appropriate and so I could probably figure out a workaround for that but the workaround is not to say that it has to be designated because that's not what the municipal land use law says so you're actually adding something that's inconsistent adding something that could be a constraint and giving the a proposed um you know the applicant for a demo permit an argument that well this wasn't designated or maybe it wasn't designated right or maybe it wasn't designated in time or I don't know I can think of like all kinds of things so I I you know this is not terrible by any means but I think it needs to be cleaned up to be very consistent with the definitions of the ML and your authority to review permits under um 111 section 111 so I think one of the reasons why we added those designations was because 105 um Upper Mountain did not trigger a review so how could we ensure because part because of the partial demolition it was in part because um I don't know if was partial demolition or because it was not locally designated I believe that's why it wasn't triggered am I correct on that chair it was it wasn't the only it was surveyed in the 1982 historic um structure survey but there was no uh and it's in the um designate it's in the uh historic district of uh was that the mountain historic district but but it didn't trigger it should have Tri but it and it didn't because they didn't request a demolition permit so it was the partial demolition definition okay but if if it if it if we the work that was done on the facade is more than 15% removal of the original that you know they removed they removed the all that I understand so so so was the partial demolition yeah so you can cure that now you know it's not like there's a it's the ml doesn't address what happened at that property but that's worth fighting for because because it's also a Gap a gap I can deal with and I'm happy to but in actual inconsistency especially where you sort of constrain eles there's no reason to do that I I have to say that first it does have to be consistent with the municipal land if it's inconsistent we have to further revise it but the way we defined it is General first we uh in the past it was defined anything less than 50% but that left there was no obligation to do it if it was less than 50% there was no obligation to even file perit we clarified that and and we tried to spell out what we included we identified any partial Dem as uh less than 50% of any historic building side structure as calculated by the surface area of any visible facade exterior wall and or architectural elements affected that may or will be materially adversely Chang the historic character of the building structure of site that's a generic and general thing the rest of it was to Define and we said shall include but not be limited to so we're not really limited ourself because we have a generalized standard but we did provide examples of what we felt should be included so so it may not be perfect but at least it should give more instruction to people as to what should be included no I I agree with the definition I think the definition is very good it's the it's the section under 136 certificates of appropriateness where you say has obtained local state or federal historic designation so now that I understand your intent yeah specifically I think we can adjust that give me yeah give me an opportunity with you to figure out exactly what to say um I think that language uh which well that language is consistent throughout yeah and that was only added to be in our view expansive clarify I understand so that's understand my point right yeah yes we may have uh main thing is we've covered a lot more than what we had in the existing ordin that's the first thing and on the other side we gave a lot of outs to things where either emergency repairs which was there before but we changed the all uh to in kind replacement and to anything that's temporary to really look at structural other things so so it's who looking at it covers more but it clearly exempts things too so so that's my question is sounds great from that I'm hoping from this point forward this is a great segue into our next uh agenda item but that Janine would now look at this and refine what we have right I'm talking about in general a building permit application comes to the building department first it goes to zoning they look at in terms of zoning issues are they the ones that going to look at this and say okay 15% of this facade has been touched who who is actually raising the flag raising the flag when this comes in that's a great that's a great question and that's what something that we're working on which would be the building inspect not the the uh yeah building you're asking people who don't have the historic preservation right eyes to look at this and make that decision but shouldn't the trigger but shouldn't the trigger be when the when that when it was built and then we have this historic uh inventory map it's a simple thing to go on the website to check it who I'm sorry again it comes to the build this is exactly the question and and and that's why we also have to I think we have to designate who that person is and it has to be a you know a regular employee with a title like the construction code official the zoning officer or something like that and then I think we layer in the hpo but avoid you know what the court did in Jersey City because it it was really just the one thing that was outside of the power but I understand how it came about and it's to answer that very question so it has to be someone's job to go onto their historically it was always Graham which is now farwa when thing when applications came in the assistant planner was always reviewing with the construction and it was their job to flag it but then it was then delegated to Tom to do the the initial revieww and then it came before the commission for things that were demo related okay so that's so how administ do things slip through the cracks when it's the secretary or no because the secretary is in planning and they have a sort of universal view of when things come in you know what's happen you know the plans come to the zoning department Department there's a zoning chart MH set back that that yes no don't need to very nothing there's there's no elevations mean nothing unless there's it meets the height it meets the number of stories there's no before after some sort of calculation on the plans of how much you're it's hard to find it in the plans or even submitted so I'm throwing that it's very complicated to so that's so that's one of the reasons it would be good to have the administrative officer the zoning officer because as long as you can make the zoning officer do the job of referring everything here which is you know coordination education I mean it's just right hand leftand every town deals with this every agency deals with this but it seems like that's the I mean this is your decision I mean it's really council's decision we address that how to give the information to the zoning officers so they they know how to look at it and you know I guess you know if they feel like there's more than I don't know how they calculate 15% okay if they feel like it then maybe they refer it and the people who are applying for this application have to prove 15% or less or more if they're not clear in their you know the way that that Graham described the issue was it was more of an issue not the zoning officer doing the work of but even more basic than that I get a a construction permanent application or a demo permanent application I see the property is there something that Flags it says this isn't a historic district this is a historic property I need to give this to Graham to give a once over before I do anything that was the that was the issue well and do you have that here do you have like a Master we have I think that's what whatever all of the work with the inventory and getting that on the the system on the back end was for I have no idea how it's working in practice CU it's wait turn the back beyond what we do when we looked at the ordinance we saw that the existing officer that makes the decision is the construction official which we view as building permits and and less likely to have the uh experience and knowledge on historic preservation by contrast we view the zoning officer as more likely to be knowledgeable and educated in the field of historic preservation I know the inventory of the town too yeah so we had there was an inconsistency one portion of the ordinance that it was the zoning officer and the other portion said it was the construction so we unified it once to the zoning office and that probably goes to the issue we talking about the historic preservation opposite well that that's separate yeah that's separate can can I no it gets down to the it may be separate but the last sentence is historic preservation shall be qualified by education experience to perform the duties set forth that's what we're talking about who whether it's the construction officer or the zoning office is most likely to be qualified by education experience we believe the zoning officer uh was most likely they have that and the zoning office should have a historic preservation experience and training the same way we do it here and the reason I brought it up is because we're looking at cons the consultant now and that should be something that they when they get hired that they're going to be yeah asked to one of the duties that are going to be asked for for so so now everybody's gotten a uh thank you jine for for the uh initial input um May and everybody's had a chance to look at this is there any other comments on this now before we ask Janine to review it I I just want to go back to that point on that uh historic preservation officer that's from the uh definition section of the historic preservation ordinance and that amendment in 2019 was the first iteration of the demo ordinance so when they did the demo ordinance they added that definition to the um uh the historic preservation ordinance as well I just have one question uh for clarification does the current ml uh statute would it would it trigger review of a state or federally designated CER structure currently okay okay so you might remember I've said once or twice at least and to the chair several times that we need to have Council designate as local landmarks every single yeah historic and state it's a it's like a one sentence I'm exaggerating only slightly ordinance to pass can um if it's a one- sentence ordinance I would suggest we do it immediately do it immediately right okay and then you don't have to worry about that anymore okay how um uh do can we do that next meeting or uh well does I think that's great it's just doesn't it doesn't Council have to right doesn't every um designation every site and structure need to be notified and that was that was the the uh roadblock yes how do you how do you notify Everybody by certified mail if you have to right I mean we have their addresses because they're already State and federally certified so we know the properties and we just it's just it's more of a cost thing send out the notice say this is going to designate your I totally agree with you it's just that we've been getting uh push back on that because of the work involved the cost involved okay so here's the long answer to the question the short answer is you notify them uh in accordance with um their requirements but um the municipal Landes law has an exception for a notice requirement for an amendment to a zoning ordinance so if you look at this as an amendment to the zoning ordinance then um it depends on whether it was called for in the master plan or in any reexamination report of the master plan so as you know you have you're supposed to redo your master plan every 10 years I don't know when you did it last or the re-exam report which is a little more frequent and if anybody had the foresight to recommend in writing in the re-exam report or the master plan that these properties should be designated landmarked or whatever word you want to use then um the exemption to the notice requirement for zoning Amendment changes applies and you don't need any notice well it's coming up it's coming in fact we were going to do it before Tommy left that was the that was the uh one issue he was supposed to be working on before he left we it might um it might be uh wise to pass that ordinance regardless because we still have a year or two before the master plan um if you it it's completed I mean I'll take a look at whatever properties you all should decide what the properties are make a list of the properties I'll take a look at what's in the master plan or any re-exam reports that are applicable and tell you what my opinion is it's up to council you know and I'm sure planning department has advice and so on and so forth it's up to council to decide what they want to do uh this is what I did in South Orange we just passed the whole thing and I like that I have is my role are we talking about the 3,000 properties around 3,000 properties which are under the demo ordinance and no defying them not the current not the current we're talking about uh what's well it's the same subject if I may um because I had a conversation with Janice about this U because of a different town that I'm in but um because um the planning department believes that it's important and also believes that the um demo jurisdiction qualifies as a um classification or boundary change to a zoning ordinance those properties are being noticed that now they have to come in okay so that's the same thing as the notice which is the answer the short answer to the question if you change the classification or boundary of a zoning District in any way then you have to notify people um that their zoning has changed but that would be for the newly except if it's been called for in writing in the master plan or the re-exam report but these are the new properties that would be subject to the demo ordinance not the current one they would not need correct the current would not that's you're talking about the 3,000 current uh properties right Fara is that well I'm talking about two things the new properties either for demolition or for designation in other words for whatever you said in your master plan or your re-exam report if it's supportable m you don't have to know notice okay this says clear exemption and there's clear case law on it Galla versus Lawrence Township okay excellent that's the long answer what uh what what is the uh do you have the text of that single line S single sent ordinance that sure I could I could send it to send so at least we can figure out what it is that you're identifying and what would it avoid what would it what what issue would it solve notice the notice issue yeah notice of uh the expansion or the inclusion of a as well it only avoids that if it's been cold pour in the master plan okay I think it'd be helpful if you send the then look at what the text is so right so that's a separate issue what we're yeah it's a separate issue right separate from from this so well not exactly right because we're talking about adding making sure that the state and National designations are included in our demo and Port partial demo ordinance correct right that that was that's why I'm saying make a list we'll send it over to city council a Township Council and see if they want to pass it because they can designate it under Section 65.1 just by passing an ordinance and a and a resolution explaining what the Reon reasons are so then we don't have to worry about as many adjustments to the ordinance okay so we now we that might restrict us that might restrict us to Janine's point but as to the demolition amendments we have to get it to Janine you haven't had enough time to look at it you have to compare it to the municipal land use law and then we Port back so we can't really do anything tonight we provided our comments and uh we just need to hear back from you before we turn it over to the uh Township Council and the planning board so well I think before that we need the we need a list of properties that's a different subject okay that's asking Council to directly designate properties okay right so but so now but what we're doing now is you're going to review this right okay I did review it I adjust it adjust it okay Jan there's one other thing in terms of the scope of properties that the demo ordinance and the definition within there was supposed to capture and I think the the Genesis behind that broad definition of federal state local was the township also wanted to capture sites and districts that were not designated but were identified in the master plan and surveyed so in terms of um you know changing those definitions can that portion still stay within the ordinance um I have qualms about that I've mentioned that before as well I mean I think you can I just I don't know what's going to happen to it if it's challenged MH which is why I'm suggesting that Council designate those identified properties which are not yet designated okay it's like a three-legged stool yeah here plan the planning department has will the council do that because I agree and that's why and that's why I think it's appropriate for you to do it I just can't so the planning department has always given a number around 3,000 they must have some list do you have some list of properties properties that you think are subject to the demolition ordinance it's all it's in the appendix of it was Janice that said it it wasn't you I have an ex I mean you were mentioning that there are two topics um so I have a list of around 3,000 properties which are being notified so that list I have with the address and the owner name and everything if that's what you're asking well I'm not sure I think that maybe the L of we talk about so far can you clarify what they're being notified of the 3,000 properties are currently being notified of uh oh the change to the demo ordinance I see okay the ones that are currently subject to it yeah got it oh so currently you're I didn't know that you're currently you're notifying 3,000 properties the change that's correct yeah um we're sending up so we um outsourced it soos card is being sent to these properties in the next days 3,000 properties sorry what are they they're they're designated as like under the demo ordinance as much as I understand uh and that they survey oh survey that we have on file they probably just compile the list yeah from the 19 also on the map it's also on the map like the I think it's either on the historic inventory map or the zone map that was probably all the work that Graham was doing yeah yeah okay I be helpful if you could find out how they were designated and just uh we so we know the criteria so okay CU that may be and you in the process of providing some notification now yeah um And to clarify this change would trigger an additional notice a partial Dem demolition um changes to this ordinance adding our definitions Etc requiring um them to come before us for partial demolition that would also trigger notification to these properties that Janice would say yes to that would say yes to that okay got it I don't think we made any change U maybe we did I don't think we made any change that would have expanded that list I thought we were always dealing with the same list we thought were covered by the demolition ordinance but now covering uh um partial demolition that was not covered before that's what we thought we were doing so was it's not changing the number of properties yeah isn't changing the properties it's just changing the kind of work that is going to uh trip the uh obligation to file so can I ask you would you send me that information who who you're sending and how you compiled where what what sources you compiled it from I've got a list from Janice okay she sent me sent it to me and then I just okay worked with that okay so for our next meeting we can we'll ask Janine to look at I'm totally confused now you are I'll make recommendations to them thank you to the the Chang thank you okay who is who was a should I just is there a chair of the subcommittee that I could be a point person for me or I I I mean I would recommend you Jerry I thought you were me I mean all three of us worked okay Kathleen Michael and Jerry and Jerry Jerry you didn't send it to me okay okay thank you thank you you're welcome um so budget I I wanted to go over this budget uh budget item um I did asked Janice what our budget was the HPC and the temporary our temporary budget is 300 ,300 um when the budget gets confirmed for I guess the next you know coming up it'll be in the area of $113,000 I thought it was important to know what our budget is because we do have this educational um component that everybody has to um you know adhere to because we're a CLG um I know there are uh expenses for mailing I mean this packet that we got that this this time was sent to me it was $11 um so it's expensive and unfortunately some of the things you know the bigger items like these type of things um well this one was but the one from uh label Street which has all the interior uh things in it it really doesn't apply to us we we're not looking at interior so there is a way that we can save costs on that in terms of of mailing um well I had a question also about uh bills for the planning board for example we approve all of our bills uh we don't do that on the commission Who currently approves our bills and how come we don't see them well that's a good that's a good uh that's good to to ask the planning department ask the planner can I add or ask um I mean we send out packets to all the members so if anyone prefers digital copies uh we could change that oh no I'm say I want a I want a hard copy I'm just saying that there that some of the things that are included are not necessary for what we for what we do for our purview who approves our bills but who approves our bills can you check on that for us please and I'll ask Janice as well did she just approve them I mean is that I've never seen anything by Statute or okay because it would be nice to know thank you so I did um confirm the amount with the CFO and Miss Raja said that that's what REO has said that that's what is on the line item for um HPC okay but um it would be good to see how that is broken out in terms of like I said mailing um I know that our Consultants are the biggest chunk of our budget um and that's going to segue into our next subject which is looking at the consultant so it would be good to ask who approves the bill and we to get a line item of how our budget is is spent okay all right thank you so now we're going to go into executive session um before we to talk about Consultants so Janine I get you're gonna say good night thank you Janine thank you Janine take off as well this is about Consultants right well before you leave before you leave you have on to a brilliant career when you're a judge come back thank you for all your work pleasure thanks okay so for the Consultants just to get organized you just say back on thank you um it's now 11:35 and we've ended our uh executive session we've moved out of the executive session so we uh now are I'm calling now for a um motion to adjourn Mo motion to adjourn second all in favor I oh great thank you good work everyone see you next month