you're okay thank you are we recording yes good evening everyone and welcome to the December 14th 2023 meeting of the historic preservation commission um this is a regular meeting of the Monclair historic preservation commission notice has been given in accordance with the open public meetings act by posting a copy of the notice on the first floor of the municipal building and by sending a copy to the Monclair times The Star Ledger and the Harold News it we are being broadcast live on Channel 34 Monclair TV and we are being remotely streamed on uh the Youtube channel now po could you do the roll call please yeah Kathleen Bennett present Jason Henman here Stefan Rooney here John remnitz here Michael Graham here Gerald Sweeny here Nicholas Juliano here Janice Telly I'm here Jenny Janine Bower here Margaret hickey here thank you okay thank you um first we have the uh uh approval of minutes approval of minutes from the November 8th 2023 meeting are there any amend amendments or uh Corrections within the minutes do you want to start or sure I I I have just one page five lines 21 and 22 says the commission discussed and stated their support for the proposed addition I think we stated our support for the general concept of this addition but not what was presented so I would like to clarify that strike that sentence yeah I yeah I I don't think that's necessary that sentence the the first sentence yeah first sentence anything else no that's all I have um same page on line two P gravable for snow storage and handicap parking opposite the store on the street makes no sense to okay so we'll we'll strike that sentence okay and Mike do you have any I had the same com I had the same comment as Mr rinit Jason no other comments Jerry um I have a comment on page two line 32 um the entrance on the far right of the stor will be eliminated that should be a period um be because because the encouragement of 10 by 5 ft is taking up space the elimination will save 12 square feet of space I believe that's for the interior um but I don't think that that's pertinent to the argument and then um on page three lines 5 through 7 um those two sentences if you if Commissioners if you will read that if those should be struck as well and then on on the next paragraph the commission share pictures of the storefront highlighting that some existing storefronts are unpainted copper and not white and then um the the last sentence should be Mr Zim responded that the copper trim would remain and be stripped of paint in order to match the re the neighboring storefronts and then page uh line 22 of the same page several Commissioners did not support removing the recess which should be did not support removing the recessed entry door and uh entryway and door and on the last page six um let's see line seven Mr Robertson confirmed that there would be none other other than replacement of the brick which will look like the existing brick and the next line should be the commission ask about the role of the second floor connecting bridge between the two buildings can you the the last one the commission asked about the role of the second floor connecting bridge between the two buildings and the last proposed amendment to Total demolition ordinance uh I would just ask that the the first sentence that rather than it saying the Ordinance do not go well together replaced do not go well together with need to be updated I think that's it I have one other thing for milk and cookies the architect was uh Robert zample in which what line is that uh starts in page two line 27 anywhere That's Mike Robert Zen his last name was zampolin oh of zampolin Associates which what's what's the name z m p o l i n so that would have to be corrected throughout that yeah that okay thank you thank you for picking that out any others so may we have a motion to approve as amended motion to approve as amended second second all in favor I I okay thank you so I'll send you those Corrections I'll Redline what I have and send it to tomorrow okay great um next order of business is a schedule of meetings for 2024 um you've all received a copy of this now Rick just told me that he will not be here on May 16th so we have to change that meaning to either the week prior or the week after what what's better for everybody I think the week prior would be May 9th I'm guessing that I'm thinking that would probably be better given it's getting close to the end of school at that point and maybe Memorial Day right or and and getting closer to Memorial Day yeah okay so can we change that meeting to May 9th sure and so the schedule of meetings for 2024 do we need a motion for that yes okay as uh schedule of meetings for May uh for 2024 I have a motion to approve with the amendment for M May motion to approve okay second second all right all in favor I thank you then we have a resolution resolution um 20 23-33 which is a certificate of appropriateness it's for 43 Church Street milk and cookies uh the resolution that was sent in your packets has been changed a little bit as per the suggestion of Janine Bowers so the resolution as it is on the desk is what we're voting on now um basically what was changed is number nine um because the motion was denied um what was written there it it didn't make any sense so Janine suggested that we change it so I'll just give you a minute to review that there's also the change in paragraph seven as well number seven yeah and that's the can you point that out I thought it was the first was it the first second oh second par the commission was the second paragraph okay do not adhere to the intent of the design criteria yep uh motion to approve is amended okay second second all in favor I I okay so motion 20 23-33 has been approved as amended um now we have our committee reports we've been pretty busy the past month so um first of all education and Outreach um I on uh December 10th I believe it was I uh donated a plaque to Mount Carmel Church and um we designated State and national uh designations it was a brass plaque bronze plaque that's on on the on the uh on the building um there was a member of the Monclair History Center there uh it was pouring down rain pelting rain so we weren't able to do a walking tour but we hope to do that in connection with the uh History Center in the spring so um and it was it was very good they were very appreciative uh MSU Monclair state university has contacted me about assessing the damage to the van rer Bond house so so there will be a meeting has been scheduled for February 1st at 10:00 a.m. to meet on site there's a lot of deterioration going on on that so it'd be great open if anybody can come we'll send a notice uh closer to uh the time um next is design review I believe that was the committee I wasable to attend that so that is for 11 South Fullerton um I don't Janice can you give us an update on that 11 South Fullerton I on the wood yes we we uh reviewed uh a revised submission uh from the architect we agreed with some of the changes we disagreed with the other changes all right and we're working on a letter to be sent to the architect confirming what needs to be done okay so all right is that so is that so you we're waiting to hear from yeah they they we they submitted a document and we reviewed it and we approved some of the changes but not all of them unfortunately we have not yet sent the letter to them indicating which changes are acceptable and which changes remain to be to be completed but we will do that tomorrow okay I was going to say by the end of the year maybe just to wrap it up oh absolutely yeah we don't want to leave it hanging because I forget okay thank you uh minor applications on I was also not present for 2023 -31 6 Park street that was approved with conditions 20 23-38 at 14 Park Street was approved with conditions 20 23-39 208 bellw Avenue it's uh a certificate of appropriateness there's a discussion tonight that's still open 2023-the the plans were submitted I know that there was a meeting on meeting and um now we're waiting for a narrative I believe okay so that's that's basically still open um 2023 41 Brick City vegan 262 Bloomfield Avenue that was signage which was approved uh with conditions 2023 42 cornbread at 362 Bloomfield was sign for signage approved with conditions um 20 23-43 which is 330 to 346 Bloomfield Avenue which is a certificate of appropriateness that is a discussion which we are having tonight 20 23-44 um the bloom child care and co-working at 52 upper Monclair Plaza was approved with conditions moving on to landmarks and grants the Belleview Library um we are having a um we are having a HPC advisory meeting for the Belleview Library thank you to Janice and PR for organizing that and that would be on December 19th Tuesday at 3:00 it's for a renovation of the um Plaza in front of the Belleview Library so we're looking forward to that the um the CLG Grant which we applied for last year and we did not get um we have uh the deadline for re application is January 19th so I spoke to uh the state today they said that we they were very positive and that we should reapply for that so um talking to the grants committee um we have everything in place that just really needs to be uh inputed back into the new form and that is the phase two of the upper Monclair commuter District uh which we we've already discussed um Lindsay was very uh supportive of it and had pointed out really what we need to do to uh have a more or have a a positive uh application so I I'll speak be speaking to you about that as well chair do we need to take any official action tonight to get that moving or is that something that can just well that's something that I wanted to discuss because that needs a resolution before the uh from whom from the council oh well I need to know okay then I need to work on that resolution I have to send it submit it next week yes because I see the council meeting is December 19th and and January 2nd and what I did Janice is I pulled the resolution from the it won't be considered at the December meeting it can't be considered until Janu the December meeting's closed oh okay okay so that's why if you give it to me next we were give me the resolution tell me what needs to be done right um we would send it next week for dis discussion for Action in January they January 2 they wouldn't take action January 2nd normally they don't take action till the second meeting but I think it's the end of the month well the the the uh the the grant deadline is January 18th so so that's really really hard then I would have to give it to them at their conference meeting and they would have to take action on it that night which they don't like to do but I guess we have no choice but if there's precedent that they did it last year yeah okay perhaps okay know okay so um I just thought it would be easy really just to follow the format of of last year's uh um okay I mean it has to be you know I mean there's obviously new characters in here yeah we'll we'll work on it okay so um are you saying then the meeting the council meeting is closed for December 19th okay it's Tuesday right yeah you're not going to get it on Tuesday okay as long as we get it on the second so that we have it by well I I will try Okay um and and the the the changes that you're making to the grant are they going do they need do the require changes to the resolution no I wasn't sure I have no idea of the scope of the changes that that Lindsay is asking no it's really just to improve the quality of the application with uh really the language and also photographs there weren't enough photographs or they application okay yes yes yes well they've done that they've done a new online application so uh I think I mean Lindsay was able to retrieve it from the state so that's how I was able to get all the documentation okay so hopefully it's somewhere in the office as well hopefully it's otherwise I'll send it hope it's not lost in the server that's right oh uh all right um and then the uh demo ordinance Review Committee thank you very much Mike and Jerry um this is the second phase of this uh we we've really we've met four times um I did send the first the draft to Janice Janine um the con Conley and hickey and and Jason um for uh comments and hopefully comments by January 5th so that we have those the ENT ire commission can discuss at our next meeting which is January 14th I believe when did you did you send those today I was late today okay um I know on our in our me in our minutes um we had high hopes that we were going to be able to do it tonight but I I had a a family emergency and I wasn't able to to uh concentrate on so uh it was but it was sent out today and uh we wait uh our uh you know colleagues uh comments okay and with that public comment is there anybody uh in the audience that would like to make any comment yes please come to the podium and state your name please Street mclair um I'm here tonight to encourage a designation vote micophone hello press the button Buton there you go is it on thanks hi Bonnie Fogle far Street and Monclair um I'm here tonight you know what um it maybe we should specify anything that's not on the agenda tonight come oh sorry okay sorry no I'm sorry I should have should have been more specific if there's any public comment on issues that are not on the agenda tonight please approach the podium no okay so uh with that public comment is closed okay next up old business um we have the label Street local Landmark uh nomination report it's been continued from March 9th and postponed from the April 13th May 11th June 8th and July 20th meetings so with that I'm going to recuse myself from the discussion and um Jason co-chair of the HPC will take over thank you and just to specify it's you've already presented the report and as the author of the P report you're not going to participate in the deliberations and discussion yeah because I did the presentation thank you Jason we're back okay so we're uh we're back on the record uh we're going to continue the discussion and presentation of the uh Landmark nomination report and as I understand uh there's been an update to the report that Miss hickey will just provide a quick summary of uh before we open up to the uh property owners and the public for uh comments and questions so Mar did you were not prepared okay to okay um I was prepared to to go over the objectors report revised report okay but I could I mean I I could quickly just give me two seconds um uh okay so for the previous I guess the first iteration was in early late 2022 early 2023 um there were some um uh there were some graphic and typographical errors in the report that I believe were picked up um but I believe there was also some clarification and a better layout of of the development of the property in a sequence uh laid out in more specific time periods um including clarification on um crumps the Crump era buildings and the fact that most they were not no they were no longer that was not clear in the first report um like I said there was also clarifications on that that they also uh it also includes um specifying a period of significance which was not included in the initial report um additional information was provided on the history in various different components um I can't specifically go into exactly which ones um uh more maps more graphics and like I said a cleaning up of the text and the sequence of events that happened on on the site and then the addition of the period of significance which was not clarified in the first report and all this is found within the uh revised June 2023 report that's been uh posted to the website that's correct thank you and this report was distributed to the um Property Owners thank you so this report is in the record it's in the record and everybody on the commission has had an opportunity to review the report um do have any questions um of Miss hickey before we move on no all right I have okay question I'm sorry the report that was issued was a report um that that was a followup to your March 6 2023 report or was a a separate report no it was a followup to Kathleen Bennett's previous report that's correct okay did you did uh Connelly and hickey give a written report comparing no we did not okay that's what I want def find so the changes were what you just mentioned Orly that's correct and I I reviewed it I read it um and I didn't have any substantial comments I had previously had substantial comments that appear to have been addressed okay thank you and um Miss hickey do you have any uh you said you you had questions and comments that were addressed by this revised report right that's that's correct and uh at this stage do you have any um opinions or um conclusions with respect to this report and its findings um I I do believe uh that it is uh better laid out with regard to the history and the development of the site and that made some clarifications that were not clear uh on the original report I did find that it was very important to designate a period of significance um so that has been provided and um I uh I I don't change my opinion and I do believe that uh there are um some cred credible Arguments for uh recognizing the significance of these three Parcels okay do you have an opinion as to whether uh these three Parcels or any individual Parcels uh satisfy the criteria in the ordinance for designation um so I do believe that uh parcel one and three uh have contributing resources on their site and I I believe based on the written um I I don't know this uh technically in terms of to the extent but Tony's Brook appears to travel through parcel 2 which uh is I believe from what I can understand and how the report is written is what is the connecting piece of one two and three so I think one could stand alone two three could stand alone and two is sort of the the binder between the two um I also think that there's greater argument uh made for the um the fire station the the fire station the automobile the motor vehicle station and that one of the points made in the counterargument is really this is not a manufacturing District I think one of my recommendations would be to um change it to the label Street historic district and remove the term manufacturing um I do have a couple of other um minor comments um that are in agreement with some of the comments made by uh the objector um let me just look through my notes here um under criteria two associated with a person's Li life um this is a uh difficult um connection to make with regard to uh Samuel Crump and so I don't believe that argument uh holds holds up in the report and um so but that doesn't mean by eliminating association with a single criteria doesn't mean that the property is not significant I just want to make that clear you don't have to check all the boxes you have to check you actually only have to check one box but um that that is one thing I agree that Samuel Crump his buildings are no longer there and so therefore that Association is gone um uh under criteria for um have or may likely to yield important information that that usually is associated at least at the national register nomination level to archaeology under Criterion D um I also agree um except possibly with Tony's Brook but I don't know enough to to make that assessment um that that the site would yield archaeological resources it has been modified um at the at the ground level and probably all the water related Associated elements other than the brook going through have probably been removed but other than that um I thought that the property has significance uh primarily under criteria what we consider a uh associations with events at Broad patterns in history and development of Monclair um I I think in my in my opinion um that the site has a broad um has a has a has broad connections with regard to how that whole area developed this site is a microcosm of that with regard to it being the really the only remaining uh buildings associated with manufacturing SL industry in Montclair um when you look at the early history of Montclair there was a much stronger uh you know it started off being agrarian there was a lot of manufacturing along the Tony's Brook um that kind of diminished as we beca as Montclair became more of a commuter suburb and sort of this um based on looking at the history and understanding mon Clair's broader history and development it this might be one of the last linkages to that Manufacturing ing um history and I think that I think that's the important criteria to look at and um the one thing I want to say about the automotive um building is uh those were those were designed uh many of them were actually located uh by the state in areas of light manufacturing because of the use and so the architecture is very reflective of industrial and Manufacturing type buildings so there was a real look or appearance to the architecture that kind of ties in with the um the the history of the area in which they place the building and I just I just want to find exactly what I wrote um so there is a historical Link in the station reflects the evolution of industrial sites at a period of transition in Monclair when it leaves manufacturing industry behind in favor of a commuter suburb that was fully embracing the automobile uh this is Criterion a broad patterns of History furthermore the inspection inspection station one of several constructed in New Jersey of similar architecture was designed using the architectural language language of industrial manufacturing buildings as seen in the use of large multi-pane metal windows long low slung Gable roofs and coral detailing in the brick attributes seen primarily in the northeast corner building on parcel 3 the inspection stations were also located in areas of industry and Manufacturing and these Emer in of fully developed commuter suburbs which directly ties to their architectural detailing um there appear there appears to have been but you know more research would probably be necessary which is not part of our scope at least m not part of my scope a conscious decision by the state for these buildings to blend and I do I do believe the the buildings um also retain um architectural Integrity um when you comparatively look at other uh industrial complexes for instance the Roblin complex in Trenton to the roing complex in robling uh Boot and Iron Works and others um a fraction of these original complexes remain um but these sites had been recognized as historic sites given the rapid changes due to several factors including but not limited to changes in technology banking Insurance expansion and relocation of manufacturing to the Midwest economic booms and bust manufacturing sites unlike residential neighborhoods Chang rapidly and without consideration for context or Aesthetics the loss of fabric does not make those buildings that remain any less significant or diminish their ability to show what they are some of the only R remaining vestors that speak to the period of important industrial development in Montclair even the loss of fabric itself speaks to a period of transition in Montclair during the Great Depression depression in the mid 20th century in the early 20th century into the mid 20th century when Monclair fully made the transition from a light industrial and agricultural Community to a commuter suburb with several commercial centers serving its residential base thank you Mr that concludes your um summary of your review and your findings pretty much okay all right at this point uh I would like to open can I ask one thing what is the date of the uh report that you're reading from uh this one well I read Al the the June 23rd the that's the label Street manufacturers and then I also reviewed the label 36 34 label Street Associates counter report now were you reading from your report her notes I'm reading from my notes from your notes okay thank you I mean you want to give me you want me to give you a little my background I mean in terms of we've I prepared three um intensive level surveys in Montclair so I'm fairly familiar with the history and development of town okay yeah if you want to just do a quick over how you prepared for your review of these reports okay so um I'm a historic preservation specialist have prepared several uh nominations for the New Jersey and National register of historic places um I've also prepared One National Historic Landmark nomination for hinchliff stadium in Patterson um our my firm focuses on uh historic preservation Alone um we prepare multiple historic preservation plans HS SARS intensive level Sur surveys um and uh we actually have a uh a focus one of the focuses in our offices on indust Industrial architecture uh particularly related to Transportation um so this kind of falls into that category thank you any other questions from the uh commission members yes another question M you connected one two and three by Tony's Brooke correct has Tony's book Brooke uh maintained Integrity uh with in connection with the period of significance that is one thing that I could not Garner from that from the report it it appeared to make that inference I don't know specifically because I never actually seen it okay okay thank you all right um um any questions from the property owner before we open up to the public uh Mr chairman if I might indulge I'd like to take one minute just to speak to my client there's a little bit of a unusual uh setting here thank you uh if any members of the public would like to uh approach and ask any questions uh of Miss hicky regarding the uh her findings of the updated report uh you can approach I might as well speak now because most of the time I can't hear what you're saying I don't know what you're referring to uh but I am very interested in maintaining this lot label area as an industrial history of New Jersey Crump is the only man have you have you have you looked at the list of people that were served in the first World War Samuel Crump the son of Samuel Crump that found at the label business served in the first world war and I guess died because he's on that plate also in edgmon Park which is sort of irrelevant but I think in terms of having the history of the Industrial Development of New Jersey this is important to keep this and anyone who invests in the town I think would be interested in having this as a reason for people to come here they're not going to come and look at new buildings for tall buildings but this and plus Tony's Brook is always a part of the problem and I don't think people keep remembering it that's why it was had the energy to have the business was the water that's there and it's still there if you recall Egan's restaurant was quite inundated with the last when whenever but the history of the um the crumps even though they sold the business to whatever they were were initially very important they lived in they had 12 children um well you probably all know that if you I'm sure you looked that up but I think it's an important aspect of the uh the difference that Monclair has to other communities that it had a basis for people to come and use the trains and live here and work here and um I think we'd be shortsighted in removing that and as I said anyone with a business in town would want to keep that as what some of the suggestions have been as an art center as a history of the Industrial Revolution and the development of mon CLE so I hope I can hear the rest of what you're saying pretty soon I think we're going to have closed captioning which will work when we're home but uh thank you for your work with this thank you and I noticed the time this whole business is about changing the times we're going to have to complain about that have you all read this the com before speaking oh comments time of comment is going to be set at each meeting historically we've had three minutes at these meetings so I don't know we're going to have to complain about this well that that's for uh Council um Council meetings but if you could just for the record just state your name Adriana UL 48 South Willow Street thank you I'm a realtor in town I've lived in town over 50 years uh and I'm interested in history not only mon clear but I visit historic places other people do too and this could certainly be something that we could make more of okay thank you thank [Applause] you right any other members of the public and again we'll have an opportunity for General comments but at this point if we could just stick to questions um um yeah I just wanted to understand what your definition of manufacturing was or which one did uh just your name for the record Mr Frank reck thank you I live in town my definition of manufacturing yes um I'm not sure I've specifically looked it up but I mean it's it's for M you know making I I don't understand the question to be honest manufacturing is there there's there's a difference between industry in terms of heavy equipment and Manufacturing with regard to to small El trying to understand how you're using the term within the context of your expert advice your review of the report and how things connect together and whether the district should or should not have a manufacturing title in it a term in it oh the no let's leave that last one for okay okay all right so in in terms of uh the properties that had Manufacturing in them right so what what and and Manufacturing can be tool and die or can be creating paper or there's there's very many different definitions um properties that had that historically would be manufacturing uh buildings those that did not aren't um on this particular property there's one that's not I'm sorry which on this partic on on on parcel one that's not a manufacturing building Cor currently it's I'm not sure I follow because I'm not sure what your definition of manufacturing is I not understand what the your question is because manufacturing is the the the production of goods okay versus the production of services okay so anything that produces a good that's correct is a manufacturing process correct yes so assembly is a manufacturing process yes assembly would be a manufacturing process that's cor packaging is a manufacturing yes absolutely okay I just want to understand you're using the term how you're using the term and how you interpret the report right okay thank you any other members of the public wish to ask questions um having seen none I'll turn it over to Mr troutner thank you Mr chairman good evening everyone my name is Thomas troutner I'm an attorney with the law firm of K shahen and AIA tamasi I'm here on behalf of 33 label Street Associates LLC it's the owner of the property located at 610 Eerie Street which is designated as block 3307 lot 7 on the tax maps of the township of mountclair and it's the property identified as parcel 3 uh in the uh nomination report uh most recently revised June uh 2023 uh uh Mr chairman be we have a a witness with us here tonight our expert uh Scott wizor from E2 project Management LLC who had submitted a report in advance of uh this evening uh dated July of uh 2023 uh but before we uh get to Mr wizor testimony I I did want to ask some questions of Miss Bennett who as the author of the uh both the December 2022 report and the revised June 2023 nomination report uh before we move over to Bennett did you have any questions of Miss higgy or do you want to move right to miss go go right to Miss Bennett Jes does need to be swor raise your right hand do you swear or affirm to present testimony tonight to the commission on the nomination report nothing the I do thank you Miss Bennett so um when to uh ask you about your June 2023 revised nomination report specifically on page two uh you indicated that the report is based on research and writing by Kathleen Bennett and the members of the preservation community of Monclair um who are the members of the preservation community of Monclair that you're referencing um specific names of people if you can recall yes um let's see on the uh Redevelopment the Redevelopment uh report that was authored by the planning department there was a timeline you're aware aware of the timeline that was in the redevelop no maybe not I'm sorry anyway there was a timeline in that report and when I uh question I question uh called the office and spoke to the assistant um who is not far off now uh she's the new assistant planner it was the former assistant planner and he gave me uh he told me who it was that authored that report so you're referring to the area in need of Redevelopment study that it was the it was the it was that was the basis of of the uh the timeline right so I just so I can clarify so there was an Area neita Redevelopment study that was prepared I Believe by the planning department of the township mclair uh I believe you're referencing that you spoke to uh Tommy sabilia who was yes the assistant planner at that time you made that phone call and you asked him about a timeline that had been included in that area need of Redevelopment study yes so my just just to reorientate to my question so my question was when you in your June 2023 nomination report you reference uh thanking members of the preservation community of Monclair uh I I I actually am just trying to find out who are the actual members of the preservation community of Montclair that you're referencing well there there's various members of uh uh I know that the timeline was written by Frank rebecky so I I was able to you know ask him about that um but other than that and I I that was the sure would would David greenbound be somebody you would consider in the preservation community of monair oh no no how about Martin Schwarz no um well they don't have any background in historic sure so so when you say you uh you you're thanking uh that the report is based on research and writing by the preservation community of Monclair you're referring to Frank raki yes and is there any other organizations you're referring to well the Montclair History Center which where I did a lot of most of the research and also the Montclair Public Library I mean I could give you the names of those people okay um now other than the timeline you referenced do you uh do you recall uh specific research that was provided to you in terms of preparing the nomination reports no I did the I did the research at the again the Montclair Public Library the Montclair History Center and also through uh my own research from my library and from monair State library and from the monair times which I all for which are all citations in my report were you the sole author of The the nomination report yes okay so there were no writings that were submitted to you that were included in includ in this report by someone else okay now it so just just to clarify just for my own understanding this section everything that you referenced you you cited to in your report right Miss Benet everything I say that again everything that you um referred to or referenced or utilized in the preparation of this report is cited in the report right yes I'm the author of the report so this section here is just an acknowledgement of persons and entities that um you were thanking yes especially with the timeline that was in the Redevelopment report from which was I forget when that came out okay so there's there's no other material or sources that's that isn't explicitly referenced in the report no not from other authors yeah I mean there's certainly lots of footnotes so now it wasn't until it was around September 15 2022 that the uh historic preservation commission first considered studying the parcels that are the subject of your nomination report correct now at the September 15th uh HPC meeting uh you thanked Frank rachi for his initial research work on two eie Street and 610 Street um when did you first have a discussion with Frank rachi about whatever that research is that you're thanking him for well that was when the I just answered the question when the timeline came out okay so that would have been when the around the time the planning board was considering area needed for area of Redevelopment okay do you recall so and the initial research that you're thanking for that's the timeline exactly okay now the uh the historic preservation commission authorized the preparation of the nomination report for the label Street manufacturing District at that September 15 2022 meeting correct yes I believe so yeah okay so now at that meeting but prior to discussing whether the have the committee authorize the study the label Street manufacturing District uh the HBC heard comments from the public uh encouraging the committee to study the label Street manufacturing District now prior to that meeting on September 15th did you have discussions with uh any other members of the public other than Frank rachi uh uh who might have spoke on September 15th regarding the label Street manufacturing District No aside from the fellow Commissioners which was would have been during the meeting okay or PRI just prior prior to the meeting now at the hpc's meeting on March 9th of this year um when the uh the the December 2022 nomination report was uh discussed uh you stated that one of the reasons you became interested in the alleged historic significance of the label Street manufacturing District was based upon conversations about Redevelopment and I'm assuming when you said that you were referring to the area the plan the area in need of Redevelopment study right that you referenced a few moments ago okay where the timeline was included now you were present at the planning board's April 11th uh 2022 public hearing on that area in need of Redevelopment study uh for 610 eie Street correct I probably I don't remember actually uh do you recall uh if you're speaking in opposition to the planning board recommending the site be declared as part of an area in need of Redevelopment I don't believe I did now I voted against it as a member of the planning board so I mean if we're I'm not sure where we're going with this line of questioning are we looking to discredit the report or uh what exactly direction are we going with this line of questioning I'm just trying to understand what prompted the uh the report being drafted well I test oh sorry go ahead okay now subsequent to the April 11th 2022 planning board meeting where the planning board voted against recommending that 60 rest Street be declared as part of an a need of Redevelopment did you become subsequently aware that a real estate developer known as b& development uh imped in front of monir's environmental commission to discuss the potential for the redel velopment of 6 Street did you uh attend uh a meeting on September 6th at Brick and D on Walnut Street that was presented by b& developers yes I did okay and that's that I I'm sorry I didn't associate the names yeah that's okay and what what do you recall was discussed at that uh at that meeting um well we had pizza um and besides that there was the discussion it was uh as I recall was uh uh the the three men that were there which I guess was the gentleman and his son I spoke to the son uh uh about the the uh Integrity of the buildings that were that are currently there and how the now I'm not speaking as the HPC commissioner speaking as a resident of Montclair and an historian really and the Integrity of the buildings and how you know I'm certainly not anti-development but the with the Integrity of that building that the buildings be incorporated into any type of of uh development as adaptive for use okay now uh do you recall if Martin Schwarz was at that same meeting I don't think he was did you have any discussions with Martin Schwarz at any time prior to the hpc's September 15 2022 meeting regarding the property at 610 E Street no okay now uh I did want to ask you um on page um 61 of your uh June 20123 report um you the 610 eie street is referred to as the subject line um why is it referred to as the subject line uh what where are you page 61 where page 61 it's the um I guess the second paragraph are we looking at the the June 2023 report correct the subject L well that's the the parcel parcel three yeah but why did you use the word subject lot because that's the the subject this it's the this the subject of the parcel right well there there are two there are two other Parcels I should have put this subject Lots it should be it should be yes you're correct it should be a plural not a singular okay um prior to September 15 20202 did you you have any conversations with any uh tenants at 610 uh Eerie Street uh regarding um either the Redevelopment of that property or uh no I only I only the only one I heard through a friend was that um the um property owner was and this was after the report was that they were uh uh no I had no direct conversation with them no I only heard third party that they were uh being uh given um uh you know to the leases were up I don't know what it's called okay but no direct contact no I didn't speak to anybody okay and you say and you say you heard through a third party do you recall who that was no okay but it's a very active uh area I mean there's lots of people that go in and out there okay okay um on April uh 11 2022 there was the planning board meeting where the planning board considered whether or not the sary street would be declared an area need of Redevelopment um uh Frank rachi and Martin Schwarz I can represent were at that meeting did you have any conversations with them uh prior to after that meeting about this property no okay uh at the uh hpc's meeting on March 9th 20122 during public comment David greenbound offered some public comments about the uh December 2022 nom report uh did you have any discussions with David greenbound about your nomination report prior to March 9th no now why did you limit the parcels to be studied uh in your December uh 2022 nomination report and again in your revised June 2023 nomination report tojust to the the three that are identified 16 label 18 label and 610 eie Street well if you look at the at a uh map of the three um proposed historic districts there's a number of buildings in that the this was I did this as a unpaid volunteer report um in order to do a broader report I would never have been able to do it I didn't have the timeing and I didn't have the resources so it had to be limited to the to this and I think that I that uh they had to be contiguous and um I think that they have enough uh cohesiveness within the their buildings uh as they are now that that it would have warranted a a smaller District within a larger District do you know the identity of the owner of 16 label Street or 18 label Street yes who is it um it's you want the person's name sure um isn't it Bobby Brown Bobby Brown and Steve pler Steve pler okay Steve pler is a well-known real estate developer in Monclair corre yes okay so the only properties affected by the proposed label Street manufacturing District nomination are properties that are either that were either previously proposed to be redeveloped for multif family housing or or owned by a real estate developer correct well I guess so okay now um You nomination reports indicates that the properties under review were recommended for historic consideration in the Township's historic preservation element of its master plan correct yes okay uh do you know the year the historic preservation element was adopted by the mon planning board um 20 was it 2016 yeah if I said December 19th 2016 would okay there you go okay so uh for over six years from the date that historic element was adopted there was no recommend commendations by the HPC to study these Parcels for nomination uh and inclusion within a historic district but then if my math is Right eight or nine days after a real estate developer uh scheduled a a meeting to discuss the development of 610 arey Street for redevelopment you uh the HPC and and through you propos that HPC undertake a study of these properties as part of a historic district yes okay um and at the September 15th uh HPC meeting in 2022 before you or anybody else on the HPC even began to discuss studying these Parcels members of the public knew to appear uh to recommend that the study be undertaken to save 610 E Street from development I think that was what some people said okay if they did they did I don't know is it fair to say the primary reason for the proposed District designation at least with respect to 161 are street is to uh try and stop any Redevelopment of that property no not at all all I I was prompted to write this report from looking and reading the Redevelopment Redevelopment uh report that came out that was authored by the uh planning department be having been a resident of Montclair for 42 years I was really surprised by the um the history of this area surprised that uh you know that this type of manufacturing had occurred there and the the idea that the Crump label company had National and international significance I just really intrigued me and being a historian I dug deeper into it and you know came up with my report but but picking up on your testimony I want to go just it would be fair to say uh you're you would have been personally not as an HPC member but you would have been personally opposed to the Redevelopment of 61 street is that re relevant to so would I be opposed I just testified didn't I that I'm not opposed to Redevelopment I not opposed to uh uh you know things need to evolve people changes in in society certainly in Monclair you could see Redevelopment going on all over the place in that little District it's more of a commercial industrial Vibe and I thought it was fascinating that we still have remnants of that and that if these buildings can be maintained and saved within a Redevelopment scheme as adaptive reuse I think that would be great okay but so but you would as adaptive reviews you would be opposed to the buildings being demolished and a multif family building constructed such as be well I wouldn't be opposed to the to to the building you know to I would be opposed to demolishing historic building that really speaks to our history which is a history that I think very few people knew about I certainly didn't and the people that came up from the public that came to listen to it didn't know about it either okay I have uh no further questions thank you any uh members of the commission have any questions for Miss Bennett okay any members of the public have any questions for Miss Bennett uh you can just kind of share the podium the hand on there it's on the cart next to computer hand it's on the cart no on it's it's fine y uh Miss Bennett um it's not on hello hello hello thank you um Miss Bennett I'm sorry I lost TR the attorney said asked you if I was at a planning board meeting in what was the date sir believe it was April 201 and you testify and your reply was I was there or I wasn't there I don't remember I didn't remember I don't know if you were there I I don't remember if I was there you're both in the minutes so I'm in the minutes as being there or calling in uh the following people made comments present at the meeting okay so you knew the answer the question before you asked it was that your question yeah oh a point of order uh no there this is not an opportunity for a point of order there opportunity for questions of Miss Bennett okay Miss Bennett you're the chair of the HPC at the time this report was issued yes okay and the criteria for obor Testimony is what do you have to have a certain number of property owners to um to yeah this isn't an appropriate question for Miss Bennett this supposed to be about her report and her testimony I mean that sounds like a procedural question that our attorney can answer but again this isn't really the opportunity for that oh that you have to go that doesn't work let me use this okay sorry about this uh I this question tool this is for questions from Miss Bennett only at this point Miss Bennett yes well let me ask you aren't you annoyed at being questioned about your conversations and so that doesn't make sense all right history is the history it's not what you thought about it or what you're doing about it I I don't understand these proceedings it was different a long time ago all right any other questions for Miss Bennett all right that being said I'll close this portion of the proceeding uh Miss Bennett you're to go to the hallway to the hallway uh and uh uh that being said Mr trer I'll open it up to you for um any affirmative testimony you'd like to present sure certainly so we have our witness uh Mr wski from E2 project management uh with uh yourent Mr chairman I'd have him sworn in and uh we have a PowerPoint presentation I also have a print out of it uh in conjunction with his uh testimony and then at the close of his testimony I would make a a closing state was that um digital copy sent to the planning department it was okay I don't believe that uh the E2 report was put in oh we uh actually we can take care of that yeah with Mr borski's fine okay good okay thank you this is just a power it's uh we we'll mark one Mr troutner we'll mark one the report and A2 as the PowerPoint that's great thank you okay sure sure A1 is for the record A1 is the The Landmark nomination report review um E2 project Management LLC and A2 is a PowerPoint by E2 project Management LLC thank you all right uh Miss B when you're ready can you swear the witnessing raise your right hand do you swear or affirm that the testimony you'll provide on the um nomination report tonight will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do go ahead can you just state your name for the record please Scott weor okay um and your uh affiliation to the uh property owner I'm uh there consultant okay I'll turn it over to you Mr troutner if you'd like to uh provide his credentials thank you Mr chairman U Mr wizor why don't you uh give the commission the uh benefit of your uh educational and professional background and your relationship with uh E2 project management sure um I am uh I have a bachelor's uh in anthropology received in 2000 uh I have a master's degree in history and I have a coursework in preservation studies from Boston University um I have 23 years uh conducting cultural resource historic preservation uh projects um I am currently the uh cultural resources sector manager for each project management and uh Mr wizor you previously testified before historic preservation boards or Commissions in New Jersey yes and have you previously been qualified as an expert in your field regarding historic preservation yes I am uh qualified uh underneath the secretary of the the interior standards um as an architectural historian as an archaeologist and as a historian and are you uh generally familiar with the historic preservation uh in Montclair yes as a matter of fact uh my firm um Margaret hickey testified or mentioned earlier that her firm did three of the uh uh historic architectural surveys my firm we actually did one of them for the uh the proposed estate area historic district now did you review the nomination report for the label Street manufacturing District uh dated December 22nd that was prepared by Kathleen Bennett yes I did and did you review the revised report dated uh June 2023 also by Miss Bennett yes I did and did you prepare a report entitled Landmark nomination report review uh dated uh but there was one dated March 2nd 2023 that was originally filed with the historic preservation commission U yes and you prepared a report with that same title uh which we've been marked as A1 uh which is dated July 31st 2023 that's correct okay um and can you uh describe for the commission uh What uh steps you took what materials you reviewed uh and uh uh what efforts you made in order to prepare uh your report sure um we I read through the reports that were prepared by Miss Bennett um I enumerated the arguments that were made the claims that were made uh and I looked at them with respect to the uh both the national register and with the uh local Township um criteria for uh nominations and for landmarking um I used uh original research through the uh Monclair History Center through the Monclair Public Library through uh Google did a ran a title search for the property um did genealogical background research um really just typical historical background research that uh that a lot of professionals do and did you uh physically inspect the property at 610 ear Street yes I did okay uh Mr chairman uh uh I would respectfully submit that Mr bazor be permitted to testify as an expert in uh historic preservation uh and that his rep I don't this power I'm not sure if we need this level formality but that his report obviously be put into evidence to the extent that the uh hbc's nomination report is also being put into evidence is there any objection to his qualification nothing board all right he's qualified great thank you uh so um Mr wizor I know you uh put together a PowerPoint presentation um and in conjunction with using that I'm going to try to stop talking and let you give the commission the benefit of your uh review analysis and conclusions sure thank you so we were uh my firm and I we were uh invited to uh review and look through this uh the nomination report and um to try to better understand what the arguments were what the um the the designation of the status was and the purpose is of course because our client uh object objects to uh their their property being included as part of a uh a landmark uh status um they feel that it doesn't qualify and in my professional opinion I uh tend to agree with them that I don't feel that it qualifies as a historic historic district okay there's okay we have oh just po all right so unfortunately I don't have the benefit of the microphone over there okay there's wir on the sir all right can everyone hear me so the uh the mclair obviously the mo uh HPC seeks to nominate the label Street manufacturing District as a local Landmark um the manufacturing district is uh comprised of four structures that are distributed across three individual Parcels the first parcel uh is 16 label Street built in 1937 by moncle Township as a state of New Jersey motor vehicle inspection station uh it has recently been rehabilitated um and uh it's uh the rehabilitation actually maintains many of the historic features that were prominent on the original structure um and it's actually a really well done uh Rehabilitation uh and the hpo the New Jersey historic preservation office uh has recommended this as individually eligible or actually as uh eligible as part of a proposed discontiguous uh historic district uh concerned uh concerning um uh New Jersey motor vehicle inspection stations as a well preserved example pardon me while I flip through everything so the second parcel uh block uh 18 label Street uh is a concrete block building uh built cir 1950 as an Appliance Warehouse um now as Miss uh Miss hickey mentioned um there is I guess the the suggestion that Tony's Brook is really the important feature of this uh of this um this block and I wish I had had more time to be able to uh prepare for Miss hickey's comments um but I again disagree with uh with the suggestion that Tony's Brook is uh maintains its Integrity uh as a historic property um or as a contributing factor um considering that uh it has been uh relocated several times uh that's actually detailed in Miss uh Miss Bennett's report um it has also been um uh shielding has been put up along the sides you can see it's actually been channelized there's concrete uh walls that actually line it uh there's rip wrap in the bottom of it it's obviously been excavated out a few times there's cement that lines some areas um and uh the there's uh it's it's been heavily modified so I would you know kind of disagree that that's really an intact portion of uh uh the proposed District but let's move to the next um the next slide so parcel 3 contains two building buildings uh 2 eie Street and then 6 to 10 eie Street the building at 2 eie Street was uh constructed Circa 1891 to 1894 by the United States printing company um it was used as a according to uh historic Maps uh it was used as a storehouse and also uh uh by uh some other uh sources it was also used as offices for both the um the manufactur not the manufacturing the the United States printing company and also for the um uh uh US Government the the sorry the the township government during the Depression um it's more of a commercial building than anything else it was also greatly revised and modified between 1996 and 2002 uh to become a uh nightclub um and has in my opinion lost a lot of its historic fabric uh a lot of what you see there is actually um the the brick work above the uh above the the woodwork there a lot of it is actually uh faux uh brick that's been put over over top of uh earlier brick that used to be in place um it's actually a skim work or a veneer that's been put on the other property or the other building that's on the slot is 6 to10 Eerie Street which was built Circa 1907 as a warehouse for the United States printing company um again it's it was a warehouse and shipping building um and it was not used for uh manufacturing so as we as we come to um actually discuss the district uh and as I read through the report one thing kind of glaringly stuck out to me um it's not a district according to the Township's code one or more histor a district is one or more historic sites an intervening or surrounding property significantly affecting or affected by the quality and character of the historic site or sites unfortunately this is not a very substantive definition there's a lot of uh kind of circuitous or circular uh logic in in in the wording however considering that most townships including Montclair take a lot of their significance statements and their uh their their guidelines from the gold standard of uh historic preservation the department of the Interior um I present this as a as a definition of what a district is a district possesses a significant concentration linkage or continuity of sites buildings or structures or objects United historically or aesthetically by plan or physical development now getting into it specifically that part that I've underlined right there United historically or aesthetically by plan or physical development that means that during its period of significance the district's period of significance those items had to be put together had to be built had to be tied together somehow by that whatever that theme is that that concentration that that linkage or continuity that goes through unfortunately that's not what we have here we have a motor vehicle inspection station built in 1937 we have an 1850s Warehouse we have a 1907 warehouse and we have an 1891 office building there's no continuity here there's no linkage that puts them together aesthetically especially these two buildings you could almost look similar but these are sore thumbs they don't they don't match there's no aesthetic continuity that's going through these buildings oh or through this proposed district and Mr Borg not to break your flow I just want to clarify uh uh with respect to the uh concrete block building I think you might have said 1850 but I I I wonder if you meant 1950 yeah yeah it's uh 1950 my apologies so the next problem is that there's no historic theme that ties these together granted both of these buildings here were both ass associated with the United States paper uh printing company this building was actually built as a warehouse for an appliance company that's according to Historic maps that uh are on file with the historic committee and that are in both Kathleen's report and my report um but this was an older building that was built for a different purpose it was also used for a tire warehouse and a a you know a tire installation Place uh commercial purposes and then again the motor vehicle inspection station it was built specifically to enforce regulations that the government had put on relating to automobiles there's no historic theme or commonality that runs through these buildings by the own by the park services definition and by the department of the Interiors definition this is not a district these buildings don't meet the criteria of being classified as a district so that was my first major issue as I read through the report next is the period of significance what is the period of significance unfortunately the Township's code doesn't Define it um the department of the Interior however does for properties associated with historic Trends the period of significance is the span of time when the property actively contributed to the trend and that for architectural for and for architecturally significant properties the period of significance is the date of construction and or the dates of any significant alterations and additions important to note is that a property must possess historic Integrity for all periods of historic significance what that means is that you can't have something in a period of significance that didn't exist during what you're saying is the the period of significance if the building predates it or postdates it it doesn't belong in What's significant so the nomination report claims that the period of significance begins in 1876 and ends in 1961 the reason they say 1876 or Miss Bennett said 1876 was because that was the year that Samuel Crump opened up his first factory within Montclair Township however none of the buildings associated with Trump exist they're no longer here they're all gone the only surviving buildings that are within this District begin in 1891 to 1894 therefore since you can't have things that are outside the period of significance the buildings you can't say that they're significant in 1876 if there's nothing there from 1876 to be significant the period of significance therefore starts 1891 at its earliest next manufacturing at the at the site ended in 1927 when the United States printing company closed the factory and sold it to the township the township then mothballed the plant used it for uh storage I believe the township used it for um a whole slew of other purposes they had offices there during the Great Depression uh they did clothing drives out of it um you know a lot of good uses but manuf facturing at that location had ended it was done in 1927 when oil Jack purchased the property actually first leased the property in in 1940 the property was used solely for storage and that was per the agreement that they had with the Township in 1946 they maintained that same tradition and still used the buildings for storage so manufacturing ends at that site in 1927 if that's the historic period of manufacturing that the manufacturing district is associated with then our period of significance is 1891 to 1927 so then these two buildings the auto inspection station and the Appliance Warehouse they're both outside of the period of significance once again we're down to the fact that there is no District here there is no period of significance for those buildings this one may be individually eligible this and the brook have nothing to do with it now let's look at the significance criteria that have been proposed so the township has five criteria four of which they borrow from the national register or the department of interior and then there's one extra one that's actually added by the township let me just catch up in my notes here real quick quick so the first criteria is if the buildings are or the the structures of the site are associated with events that have made a significant contribution to the broad patterns of our history criteria B for the national register or two for Monclair are that are associated with the lives of persons usually an individual a single individual significant in our past the national criteria register of criteria C or Monclair 3 embody distinctive characteristics of a type period or method of construction that represent the work of a master that possess High artistic values or that represent a significant and distinguishable entity whose components May lack individual distinction criteria D for the national register for for Montclair have yielded or may be likely to yield information important to prehistory or history and then finally montclair's own uh criteria are otherwise of particular historic significance to the township of Montclair by reflecting or exemplifying the broad cultural political economic or social history of the nation state region or Community now let's apply these criteria Monclair criteria one are associated with events that made a significant cont ution to the broad patterns of our history the nomination report makes three claims to this number one the original complex of the Crump label Factory and its association with the site reflected post Civil War industrial growth in the Northeast which relied on an abundant on abundant energy sources including water power and railroad Transportation now unfortunately this this this this is a tricky one because after the Civil War this doesn't really apply historically speaking water power was a preil war energy source going back to Roman times following the Civil War companies embrac the technological advancements that the war kind of brought on to us the the biggest one was steam power Steam power meant that companies could no could basically establish themselves wherever they wanted without having to be Tethered to nearby streams nearby sources of water power they could go anywhere establish anything and especially capitalize on the fact that there was cheap labor and cheap land so this statement is just it's it's incorrect um it didn't the the the factory wasn't put there because it wanted to rely on the the water sources as a matter of fact despite the fact that there's pictures showing water draining out of the factory which is all that it shows the historic uh maps and atlases that actually give detail about the factory actually show that it was actually steam powered the factory itself used steam power and not water power the other important thing to point out is as I mentioned before Tony's run has been modified changed and then finally there are no Crump related buildings remaining on the site that would have tied into this post Civil War uh Factory the Crump label Factory has nothing to do with this anymore because it doesn't exist there's no remains of it and there's no chance for archaeological resources associated with it okay so the next claim the remaining buildings of the United States Paper Company embody the distinct characteristics of two 19th century brick buildings one used as a commercial building the other as an industrial Factory it's a couple problems with this the earliest surviving building well first off let's let's take a look at one thing 19th century that's that's a pretty broad period from 1800 till 1899 that's that's that's a long time to cover during that period you had many many subdivisions you had Victorian architecture you had Gothic you had um you know you had the Gilded Age which took place you had a whole slew of different events and and and things coming together that you really can't say that it's just 19th century brick building because because that that's not a style it's not a classification that's just grouping something together for convenience the issue with this also is that the earliest surviving building was built during what is known as the Gilded Age okay during the Gilded Age which follows reconstruction Past after the Civil War we had um you know we were really getting into boart's AR architecture Barts came out in like 1893 around there so your earliest building would have actually represented if it was really put together in like a high style or something that was meant to be you know really revered would have reflected a better style than what's actually there which is a very common kind of um utilitarian building the other building wasn't even built in the 19th century it was built in 1907 which is unless I got my math wrong the 20th century um and it's also a utilitarian building that uh once again reflects more of an economy of design uh lack of adornment and a maximization of uh useful storage space the third claim this one here the railroad service and connections were the key to the economic growth of the Crump label Factory and firms that subsequently located in the study area their Reliance on the railroad during this era of significant reflects how Transportation developed in the Northeast and in National Trends in the 19th century so basically to boil it down that claim is that the railroad let to led to economic growth therefore factories that settled there demonstrated how Transportation developed all over the the the Northeast throughout the 19th century the only thing is that that that doesn't say anything that's nothing not anything significant historically the Del the development of the rail was a significant contribution to American history however the properties are not associated with the development of railroad the beginning of the railroad started in the 1830s and really by the 1870s when you're when the the first line really hit uh in in Montclair Township we were nearing the end of the period of significance for railroad development so even with that this is taking place the the Crump label Factory didn't come into play until after the end of the trend or near the end of the trend it it doesn't it doesn't really relate to that to that point um the buildings also are not a part of that trend of railroad development this claim is just it sounds like it's important but it it it doesn't there's no substance it's not substantive enough to to really give it that significance in my opinion um basically it's to apply the same logic any building that's located near a railroad would essentially be be eligible to be in a historic district because it reflects that you know buildings were built near near railro roads so and here again as we go through some of the slides here's actually a nice picture of them tearing down the Crump label Factory that no longer exists now to our next criteria criteria two associated with the lives of persons significant in our P now what did we say about a period of significance the period of significance well significance itself even needs to have integrity it needs to actually have an association with something that survives Trump sold his business in the 1880s and the only building that's remaining the earliest building remaining was built between 1891 and 1894 there's no connection to crump there anymore that's gone there's no significance so criteria 2 as even as Miss hickey had pointed out criteria 2 doesn't apply so so far criteria one doesn't apply because it it doesn't meet the criteria criteria 2 doesn't apply it doesn't meet the criteria criteria three embodies the distinctive characteristics of a type period or method of construction that represent the work of a master that possess High artistic values or that represent a significant and distinguishable entity uh whose components May lack individual distinction so the department of the Interior speaks to this a little bit as well and it applies to properties that are significant for their physical design or construction including architecture landscape architecture engineering and artwork to be eligible a property must meet at least one of the following requirements and have integrity the factory buildings so if you look at these photographs right here's the factory here's crum's Factory in 1877 as it was depicted here's the factory in 1894 as it was depicted here's the factory in 1926 as it was depicted All That All That Remains is one little building here one little building here and these two buildings weren't in here and here that's actually a different building from this one that's actually here this is a a frame building that's depicted in 1894 being on the corner of eerie uh sorry eerie and label this is a brick building it was more than like replaced at some point but the original building that was depicted as part of the the the United States printing company Factory isn't there anymore that's the only building that that's the building that remains all of these Factory buildings everything else that you see around it it's gone not even the buildings that were over here exist because this one's there now now if we look at this okay kind of look at the building again right here all of this is missing it looks like it could have possibly been there but this is all addition that was put on in 1993 or 1995 in the 1990s um except for the inspection station none of the buildings associated with with the uh are associated with a master a master builder the building uh at the at the corner here the inspection station was actually designed by a local architect Clifford Clifford wend Haack and you know again this one we feel is actually eligible for the national register of historic places these buildings are not affiliated with any known Masters also you can see how to the extent that a lot of these that this building has been changed just off the photographs the other thing to point out is that most of the artistic elements that exist on this building like this nice little uh belt course that's there that decorates it um a lot of these other little elements here those were added during the 1990s renovation their artistic value is actually more of a recent Recon construction than it is a uh anything else and the other thing too is that it's not even a unique kind of building here's two other examples locally that actually have that same kind of clip corner and you couldn't distinguish them from being a industrial building a commercial building residential building this is actually residential and Commercial same here these it's a common form it's a common type of building there's nothing significant or really important about that specific design of the building now the other thing to consider is that the buildings need to have integrity so what is integrity the Township's code says it's the authenticity of the historic identity of a building structure site object or District evidenced by the survival of the physical characteristics that existed during the historic during its historic or prehistoric period the department of the interior though has a little bit better of a definition there are seven aspects to Historic Integrity location design setting materials workmanship feeling and Association the department of the Interior states that to retain Integrity a property will always possess several and usually most of these aspects important the property must also possess historic integrity for all periods of significance now let's look back to these areas of of of Integrity one of the a letter that um was submitted by Connelly and hickey uh to the first uh objection that we had filed or we had sent in written um stated that the litmus test is basically you know what a person from that period from the historic period say 1910 walking up to this site still recognize it today my feeling is no and here's why the massing is completely wrong you're missing the rest of the factory the building has been doubled in size the fenestration pattern the window pattern has changed window openings have been modified and enlarged you've got a tower here that didn't exist historically the roofs on the towers have changed chimneys that used to be there are gone a whole facade an entry facade right over here that used to exist is gone the window types are missing this doesn't look any different to somebody from 1910 as either of those other buildings that I showed before in this slide they wouldn't be able I don't believe that they'd be able to differentiate it too much better from any of these they wouldn't recognize this as the factory another aspect to the Integrity is that and here's actually a photograph showing some of the chimneys that used to be there there there's what the towers used to look like they don't look anything like that anymore the window Heights are completely different there's the facade that used to be there the entryway that's gone doors that used to be there that are now just windows a lot of modifications have been made and then the other point is right here most important thing the setting the setting doesn't doesn't survive this is what somebody from 1910 would have seen when they actually got off the train this was the original train station this is what they would have seen as far as the streetscape goes the additional buildings infill Factory all of that's gone that doesn't make them recognize this building as anything different from what was seen before so with respect to design the design has been changed with respect to setting the important characteristics that define that building and set it apart from anything else in the township are gone they've been removed so the setting isn't there materials materials have changed as I've mentioned these are actually veneer bricks up here you've got wood paneling replacing what would have been brick down there and I'm sure the original substrate underneath has been trashed as they ground uh you know channels into the into the original brick to try to mount all this stuff you've got a belt course that never existed you've got you know these conjectured uh towers that did not look like that there were no windows in the towers in the historic times so the design is completely gone the materials changed or or damaged also when you look at the interior from the expansion a lot of these interior walls that used to be exterior walls are gone they're removed the feeling if you went up there would you feel like you were walking into a factory it it's a nightclub that's what it looks like this looks like any nightclub that you'd walk it to in New New York City used to be fact am I wrong yeah all right fine so I don't go to too many nightclubs I'll give you that one they were all prce Association the other point is that it's really not associated with anything it's not associated with with Trump it's not associated with the other buildings in the district except possibly this one there is no historic Association there so to me this completely fails the test for that criteria and therefore that criteria doesn't work um again as to kind of be a little bit more uh conscious of time as Miss hickey said you know Monclair criteria 4 criteria D really doesn't apply here archaeologically there's too much disturbance too much ground disturbance and and damage that the the property has changed too much so it doesn't have the potential to yield information and plus the information that you would have wanted would have been you know the mechanical processes the uh Machinery the the drive systems the um the the historic elements that actually were part of the industry that took place there so that one doesn't apply either so that's four out of four criteria so far that do not apply to the this property or to this district and then finally are otherwise of particular historic significance to the township of monair by reflecting the broad cultural and social history of the nation and Community this is where Miss Bennett brings in oil Jack so oil Jack was a large uh they were a large employer in Montclair during the 1930s 1940s um they actually had their Factory here's the label Street Properties right here right up along here this is actually where the oil Jack Factory was this is where they set up at 18 Depot square right there um they leased parcel 3 this property over here in 1940 after having their Factory established here they never Ed this for a factory site they used this for shipping and storage only um they purchased parcel 3 in 1946 and they continued using it a storage space oil Jack sold the property uh in 1960 there was I guess a little bit of manufacturing or actually assembly of goods that took place here in 1950 which I guess Miss hickey would probably put to being either manufacturing or industry um but again it was sold in 1960 so this doesn't contrib rute really to the period of significance because there's too large of a gap between the two it's completely separate animal and then basically all the significance for oil Jack's use of this site is after World War II because they didn't purchase the property until 1946 they leased it in 1940 but only used it as storage nothing really went on there of significance that would lead to you know manufacturing or industry in that property until after the war so another point that the department of the Interior makes is that continued user activity does not necessarily justify continuing the period of significance the period of significance is based upon the time when the property made contributions or achieved the character on which significance is based according to the report that would have been the period of significance that we identified 1891 to 1927 when manufacturing largely stopped there so oil Jack has nothing to do with the historic significance of the property therefore again once again this fails the test for this criteria so let's conclude as we go through does it meet the definition of a district I don't believe so I think that we've we've shown that it does not meet the definition of a district does the period of you know what is the period of significance it's not 1876 to to 1961 realistically it's 1891 to 1927 none of the significance of criteria apply to this property it's not recommended eligible and we we don't recommend it eligible as as a landmark or a historic district finally parcel one is recommended individually eligible under criteria 1 and three we completely agree with Mr hickey on that one and the remaining Parcels are just unremarkable examples of common forms with no common aesthetic or theme or historical Association and they fail to meet the significant criteria of either the township or the department of the interior and that is the end you can stop listening to me that that's all my questions and uh the concludes the presentation however Mr chairman if the members of the commission have questions and I imagine the public I'm going to go ahead and open it up to uh board for questions of the witness um we'll start um commissioner Rooney go okay um do you believe that the location of the bringing in the factory of crump's factory had anything to do with Tony's Brook do I believe that the location of the factory had anything to do with Tony's Brook as a source of energy as proposed in the um in the nomination report no why not because I don't think that it was water powdered I've seen well originally there was probably something there that was waterp powered and then they used Steam and where do you suppose they got the 1876 when Crump established his Factory steam was already a very popular power where do they get the water it's a water source not an energy source well it's become an it was their energy source with steam and they had to get the water from someplace also the the the only remaining piece that Ary and label is that corner little build building of ceries and that's probably the only remaining part of the fact Factory of the United States printing company's Factory but not of crumps okay um did Crump not use the railroad I'm not disputing that he didn't use a railroad probably he had a sighting going into the factory from the railroad he did so that's why it's there I don't have any other questions commissioner gagano I just have one um on your slide they're not numbered but um the image of parcel 3 in three different time periods M headed significance um in the 1926 image is the building not at the sort of rear right side of the picture and perspective the existing building on the 6 to 10 eie Street parcel no I'm trying to find the page that you're on yeah is it is it this photo the upper one the black and white okay yeah and the building all the way to the right yes that is the uh the 1907 Warehouse okay constructed in 1907 correct okay yeah I have no other questions at this point this moment Mr uh so I heard you say that um you said it was possibly the two US Paper uh company buildings were related uh in what sense could they not be related I I don't understand uh how you're phrasing there you said they might they could possibly be related oh then isn't it clear that they are well no the the possibly is is uh in relation to the entire District um could you elaborate I don't understand that point in relation to the entire District how are they not related they're not related to the rest of the district because oh you're saying the buildings collectively correct are not but they are clearly related they're related to each other to each other okay all right I want to make sure right it would be like the difference between a town and a and a and a family you know the families related to each other but they're not exactly related to the town okay I I see what thank you for clarifying that so Crump establishes this site as a manufacturing Hub correct no he puts a label printing Factory there yeah do we not consider that manufacturing I mean well I wouldn't call it a hub okay but he's one of the largest producers of these labels in the country in the in the world along operation in New York yes so so he establishes a New Jersey Hub here correct a Mont Jersey Factory yeah okay and he sells it to us Paper Company mhm who continues that use correct they didn't print labels so much they were actually more uh cards and uh he did cards as well though Crump did cards also right so similar use um and their claim to fame uh uh they started to get into something that New Jersey coded took over later but uh with the lamination of uh of paper and those two buildings and there were also uh a huge producer of these cards they're a huge employer in the town a huge employer regionally those are the last two remaining buildings right of of this manufacturing Hub that's been that was defined by these labels these cards by this manufacturing process correct the those are the last two build bu associated with that site yes with that site yeah and they're also used for some pretty important local history the Department of Welfare was a very important resource for the community during the Great Depression right the I understand that you said that there was um the site really had nothing to do with the historical significance of oil Jack but even if it was for the packaging and for the storage that's vital to their operations one of the biggest Employers in the city at the time correct I guess yeah okay um so even though there might be gaps in uses these are some very um relevant very uh important aspects of the the local history of Monclair during that period correct if that's important to your to the town yeah then yes and um I think that might be my questions for now but the we all agree the Department of Motor Vehicle Inspection site could be nationally designated today um Miss hickey had indicated that perhaps the building was designed to match the area architecturally is that correct would you agree with that assessment I'm sorry just when you say building just which building the U I'm the Department of Motor Vehicle uh it's original use the the that parcel to match which the I don't want probably butchering Miss hickey words and I apologize for this but the the architecture of that building was Des designed to blend into the surrounding area is that correct that is my that is my understanding your understanding would you agree with that would you agree with that assessment I don't have enough historic photographs of other buildings in the area from when that building was designed to make that assessment but even if they don't match identically with say the US Paper Company buildings these are industrial buildings for industrial uses uh the Department of Motor Vehicle building is designed in an industrial style right that doesn't look like an office or a house or right it it's it's matching the industrial look correct well it matches the style of many other department of motor vehicle inspection stations throughout the state but if this one is you know so it could be argued that it's to that type of structure but if we all agree that that could be nationally designated uh perhaps you know that that is you know it's a significant look it is an industrial look and it is in an industrial Zone that was traditionally um uh manufacturing right so it would blend in with a traditionally manufacturing District theoretically all right those are my questions for now thank you yeah I have a few questions um maybe to follow up the same kind of questioning that Miss Bennett got um who hired you uh that would be uh I was first contacted by Mr troutner and then uh I worked for uh 34 label Street Associates have you worked for them before this project just this project yes okay uh when you were hired did you understand that your clients were not happy happy with uh the possible uh designation of this as a historic district yes that's the exact reason I was hired right were you hired to provide unbiased report or to create a report to discredit um the nomination report I was hired to give an unbiased review in my estimation of Miss Bennett's report okay um couple just some basic questions um do you are printing manufacturing that's actually a good question because there's a definition the labor La statistics board defines printing as manufacturing I just want okay um for uh a historic district um to not have a building that was the Crump building no longer there so um your testimony is that District that that lends no no value to the district being historic in any way uh because it's not there the building's no longer there so to the standards uh it's irrelevant because it's a great little vignette to add to the history uh to add context but as far as an actual determining an actual period of significance um it's irrelevant and that's per Park Service standards so the fact that it was there it's no longer there it's irrelevant the fact that it's no longer there that history it's it's a good context it's a good vignette uhuh but it can't be considered part of the period of significance for that site or for that for the buildings that survive okay um I'm I have my a hard time wrapping my head around that but that's not really a question okay I mean I would say the same thing about the World Trade Center it's no longer there does is that site significant but I well then but with the World Trade Center you're you're comparing apples to oranges with the World Trade Center the fact that it was destroyed was actually a very important act so that in itself and then the bathtub site that was that was created as a as a testimony and as a uh um as a remembrance to it those are also significantly different sites so but when it comes to the Crump La this label Factory manufacturing District the nomination report puts all of its basically puts all of its eggs into the basket of that it's Samuel Crump driving this but crump's buildings don't survive anymore I don't think it put all its eggs in the basket of Samuel Crump right that was certainly an aspect of the history I mean but if we were to modify vote to modify the report to start the the historic period of significance to 1891 uh would that overcome any objection to the historical period because you're talking about now the US Paper Company I apologize John I didn't okay go ahead I I don't know you that that's for you guys work out um okay I have one I think I only have one more question um oh two more questions um the two buildings left on parcel 3 that you said uh don't necessarily have any significance and weren't designed by any architects of any do you know who the Architects are who designed those buildings I have not found any records saying Who The Architects were so you don't know if they were significant or not but if you can't prove it you can't okay okay um you made some comments about aesthetic continuity M um if I could imagine a landscape full of utilitarian buildings that were uh masonry all built masonry flat roofs uh were individual buildings set apart from each other uh didn't have housing mixed in didn't have other elements to me would you consider that some sort of aesthetic continuity I'd say that it was similarity not necessarily a continuity continuity okay does a uh a historic district do the different pieces of those historic districts have to be all of similar features similar to be shared there should be shared features amongst the buildings yes but they don't all have to be the same no no okay um that's it questions um when were the Crump buildings demolished the Crump buildings were demolished in the 1920s to 30s uh actually 19 between 19 I think they were de Dem excuse me were demolished in 1936 right prior to the building of the uh the motor vehicle station as a matter of fact they were torn down specifically for that purpose and the uh existing structures the 1891 office space 1907 warehouse and shipping building they were obviously uh constructed at the same they were uh in operation at the same time as those Crump buildings were in operation correct there was that period of overlap yes there was a period overlap yeah and during that period of overlap it was owned by um US Paper Company y okay it was sold to them by the crumps Yes crumps sold it to them yeah uh earlier in your testimony you mentioned modifications to Tony's Brook um and you you uh stated several features that were obvious modifications from the natural stream right uh when were those modifications um constructed that I am not sure I don't have record about that um I do know that they exist now which is why I pointed them out um but I am I don't know when those were put in you don't know if it was they were put in as part of the 1950s uh construction of the Appliance Warehouse no idea you don't know if they were put in earlier than that unfortunately I do not okay so they could have been constructed During the period of significance if if they were constructed During the period of significance that would be interesting but more research would be needed to to determine that but again that would be between you know as I mentioned 1891 to 19 27 um with respect to the uh office building M you mentioned the modifications to the faad uh the there was the demolition of the rear portion was the the factory right um and then an addition Place yep okay uh with respect to the original portion that's still there that's still in the same footprint correct yes has the framing been altered in any way yes you're missing uh an entire back wall um actually several exterior former exterior walls are now missing because they put the additions on the exterior and expanded the the building so the interior walls were removed to allow for additional space on the inside and those are framing on the front portion rting the street or rear framing well that's it's not even framing it's just brick work but yeah the brick work's still there brick work's still there okay underneath the veneer and the wood paneling it's visible on the interior only in areas where there's been uh interior uh things removed but the the structure of the building yeah is still intact structure is still there intact that's all I had good evening I have a lot of questions uh some of them go to definitions the criteria for designation requires Integrity as well as meeting a criteria this district is proposed as a label Street manufacturing District so presumably manufacturing has to have taken place I looked up previously some definitions of manufacturing you you can agree with them and not agree definitions I have are making of articles on a large scale using Machinery creation of new products either by raw material or components now I want to ask first um you said manufacturing ended in 1927 using those definitions did all manufacturing on that area and this so-called this district end by 1927 May manufacturing ended and then was reinitiated at a later date I'm sorry say that again as I even said during the uh the the presentation manufacturing ended in 1927 right and then it was reinitiated at a later date okay when was it reinitiated uh basically I believe the 1950s underneath the oil Jack and only for a period of about 10 years so on this area described as the district manufacturing did occur later on there was a gap but it occurred up until 1950s and when did that end uh roughly 1960 when they sold the property okay 1960 okay second I want to go into uh Integrity because the definition and the the ordinance the is integrity is the authenticity of the the historic identity of the building structure site object or District evidenced by the survival of the physical characteristics that existed during the historic or prehistoric history does that only apply to structures or could it also apply to a a river or other body well these weren't proposed as sites these were proposed as structures and well let me let me put it the other way around it doesn't apply to land or it does it apply to land can you rephrase the question well to satisfy the definition of a new District mhm it has to have integrity Integrity relates to the survival of physical characteristics that existed during the historic or prehistoric period I view that as relating to structures or buildings I don't view it as related to land so my question to you is could it relate to a stream it in the National register in in the DOI interpretations it can apply to Historic Landscapes it can apply to um structures it can reply to uh a whole variety of sites uh structures objects um but Integrity is applied to all of those with respect to um its its eligibility and criteria okay so let me ask as to uh posel one does that have the the sense of integrity does it have 100% Integrity no well what percent it has been it has been renovated it has been like I mentioned before it has been remodeled into a restaurant yeah that's the interior use the exterior is substantially the same though right no they changed the windows they changed the openings they did they put an infill actually I'm sorry I just want to clarify we did you say parcel one or parcel three parcel one parcel one and that is the the rest or is that the motor vehic that's the the inspection station okay uh parcel 2 does that uh retain the the Integrity or authenticity it's also been changed that's been and and how has it changed uh window openings have been bricked in filled in reopened new window openings in other areas uh doors have been closed over and opened up in other areas types of doors have been changed um additions have been put on uh there's a number of physical changes I believe I detailed that actually in my first report okay and for the uh parcel 3 you've already gone through all the all the uh uh changes on that um I think those are my only questions at this time okay chairman I'd like to ask some questions sure um you you agree that the Township Code applies not the Secretary of interior standards correct yes um and the Township's code for what is a district is one or more historic sites and intervening or surrounding property correct yes um and you agree that the motor vehical inspection station is an historic site right eligible eligible fine yeah um and you agree that the um two remaining industrial I'll call them industrial uh structures um could be historic sites correct I don't I don't feel personally that I would not recommend them eligible no okay if this this um commission thought that those two remaining industrial uh properties could be eligible as historic sites under the Township's code along with the motor vehicle building that would satisfy the definition under the code of one or more historic sites and intervening or surrounding property correct if that's your interpretation yes do you know whether the uh whether Tony's Brook was used by um the label operation as a discharge point there is a graphic which actually I had in the presentation from 1877 which shows that they were discharging uh fluids of some sort into this into the brook yes there's an article as well correct articles actually about the contaminating the water yeah yeah um but they were found that they weren't contaminating right it was actually the Paper Factory up the stream yeah uh but nevertheless it was common place in a in a manufacturing uh District I'm not using the word District uh in that sense but an area to uh discharge to the nearest stream and in fact that would be one reason for locating your property next to the stream right it could be but it's not exclusive you have to discharge it somewhere so it's either onto land or into a dryw or into a dryw yeah um and um so for that reason Tony's Brook running through this potential District uh could be consider considered by the commission as a unifying Factor right I wouldn't agree with that professionally or personally but that's again your call and you would agree that in um in manufacturing in a manufacturing operation whether you're assembling from components or assembling from uh raw materials storage and warehousing including shipping at the end of that process are integral often called uh accessory uses to the manufacturing itself I would classify them as distribution much as uh you have a distribution warehouse um for shipping handling kind of things I would not necessarily consider them part of the manufacturing process no so you think manufacturing stands on its own without um a place to bring in the raw materials uh we you thought they had like instant Trucking time and so forth in those days no um but what I'm saying is that there is a difference in the process processes between manufacturing and shipping and distribution sure and one of the reasons to keep those different uses close together is because it makes for an efficient manufacturing operation right correct and you pointed out that there was no period of significance definition in the Township Code which guides this commission correct I did not see one when I looked through the code um and therefore under criteria a which um is relied upon in both the report and U Miss Hecky's testimony uh that is associated with events that have made a significant contribution to the broad patterns of History um those patterns can be patterns that have evolved over a period of time they don't have to be within a um a tight period for instance when manufacturing ended here typically in an instance of this the the discontinued use would not be considered part of the period of significance there would be a different or a new period of significance at a different location of time well as you pointed out the a period of significance for the motor vehicle inspection station is associated with a different pattern but the pattern is part of the evolution the transition of not only this area of Monclair but of Monclair itself correct well that's a different interpretation than what's been put forth as the claims in the report is the motor vehicle inspection station part of the transition from um manufacturing to an auto oriented suburb I think that it happened coincident with that change but I don't think that it's necessarily an integral part of it that motor vehicle station could have been put anywhere um it's not reflective of necessarily this neighborhood it's just that's where it got put so do you disagree with Miss hickey's testimony that um the state likely consciously located inspection stations and in fact designed inspection station having heard that testimony just today and having not having had a chance to research or prepare I would need to do more research to actually be able to rebuff it okay so you don't dis disagree with it then you just don't know objection I don't think that was his testimony but I'll let him answer okay well since you interrupted me let me finish my question this time okay do you disagree with Miss hickey's testimony that the state likely consciously located motor vehicle inspection stations in areas where there was already manufacturing or light manufacturing districts and in fact um designed them to make them look like Industrial buildings I would need more research need time to do more research to confirm or deny okay and with respect to the authenticity um as defined by the Township's code you would agree that many um historic structures that constitute historic sites have changed uh doors and windows features like that correct yes that doesn't necessarily equate with a loss of integrity under the definition the Township Code correct that's a good question uh to the township code from the surveys that I've done and in my experience um the township is more forgiving than other standards yes no other questions okay uh before we open this up to the public H and then have M hickey provide additional um ask additional questions or comments I'd like to just take a five minute recess and during that time if the uh the three applicants um for uh 30 North Mountain Avenue 208 bellw Avenue and uh 330 Bloomfield Avenue can just uh come up to the deis and we can just discuss uh proceedings for tonight because I I don't think we'll be done before our 10:30 cut off so uh we'll just take five minutes we'll go off the record right now do you good okay back on the record and before we continue the proceedings uh just like to announce that uh under item 8 new business application um 2023-24 for 3030 uh 346 Bloomfield Avenue Jackson bangs that application is going to get carried to uh the January 18th meeting so if you're here for that application uh it'll be heard on the 18th the commission does have a a hard stop for new applications and testimony at 10:30 which uh can be extended subject to a vote of the commission uh but given how this matter is proceeding I don't know if we're going to get to that um but as of right now I think we we're going to keep uh 28 bellw Avenue on and uh 30 North Mountain on if we can get to it uh but uh we for sure are not going to get to the uh uh 330 Bloomfield App application so we're going to carry that one um that being said we're going to continue the uh hearing on the nomination um Mr Sween you had a couple more questions before we yes uh I gave uh previously a my definition of manufacturing but that was out call the narrower definition of the process of manufacturing the process of business of it may include an office building or warehousing so that I view that as a broader definition but using either definition parcel one was the building there used in any sense for manufacturing during which period during the period that that building existed well if you want to call a restaurant manufacturing cooking food producing Goods then technically I guess you could but building one it was a motor vehicle inspection station I don't think most of us called a restaurant manufacturer kind of degrades it but okay so let me ask a second then using the the Township's code of a district was the uh quality or character of that building uh manufacturing facility it was an inspection station so I do not believe it was okay parel 2 they're building on that was that used for uh actual manufacturing or product for creating products yes not to my not to anything that I've seen in the historic record and um it was used for as a warehouse and for uh uh sales okay was it used for warehousing of products manufactured in or around the site I don't believe there were any appliances manufactured on the site or near the site um but I would need to know more history about that area of uh about the the greater area of Montclair to know if there were any uh manufacturers of appliances so you're saying right now we don't know whether that building on parcel 2 was used to store manufactured a Goods or a manufactured onor on the uh the area now designated as a a label Street manufacturing District correct I have not seen any evidence that it that it stored anything that was manufactured there that is I have not seen information towards that um and uh the basically trying to determine you know if there was other manufacturing around the area that was stored at that location was not part of my scope okay and finally uh parcel 3 the two buildings there were're using the narrower defin definition of creating articles or uh creation of a new product the narrow definition of manufacturing did manufacturing occur in either of those two buildings there's reference to the assembly of items within one of the buildings um I believe it was 6 to 10 uh eerie and that is the only reference underneath the oil Jack company would you consider assembly manufacturer you could consider you would okay so but again as I mentioned earlier that would be a later a second period of significance discontiguous with the first okay and those buildings the two buildings on parel 3 did they have using the uh Township Code definition did they have the quality or character of a manufacturing facility the quality or character I believe that one has the quality or character of a existing nightclub or office slash turned into nightclub and I believe that the other one has the quality or character of a warehouse that is now a gym I think okay when you say the uh you're talking about the existing character of it are you're saying the one building looks like a night club yeah okay and like an office building apprciate all right uh I'm going to open the uh floor up to questions from Members public and again these are just questions of the witness uh it's not quite time for comments or your opinions so just questions of the witness and you know to the extent that you know there are topics that have been broached um I'd ask that you know we just forego uh any repetitive questioning are you opening up to the public for questions just of this witness my name is Frank raki again um I think we've I guess the question of manufacturing is a of Fame that everybody is kind of gravitating towards um not sure why but um did you in all the research that you do um investigate at the library or the Historical Society or in norc or here um what the town said about Manufacturing what's in their code I believe that we have a reference to it in my first report but that's not part of the discussion tonight we start at new we're talking about the second report then it is it may not be included in my second report okay and I was your report didn't indicate didn't include a figure that indicated any kind of zoning map why did you leave out zoning Maps because or a description of what the zoning was during the period of significance because my scope was not too my scope was to address the claims that were put forward in the nomination report not necessarily to identify all areas of industrial or like light industrial zoning within Montclair Township but you did put a zoning map in your report though that's what I don't understand you just said yes so I don't understand I think it's figure one whatever no it's the one figure one's a tax map okay that that is that's the one that's not a tax map that's a tax map that's not a tax map that is ax where did you get the tax map the tax map is based off of the town's uh tax parcels and uh tax parcel data that was established through GIS okay so that is a interpretation or fact assembly of the Township's tax man that is based on the Township's tax data yes yes it's a fact assmbly of a tax map okay no the reason why I noticed that it wasn't a tax map was because it had features it was a duplicate of the zoning map for the area and you can tell the difference there are certain Ts that people know the zoning map in this town would note about that and the tax map and the other tell was you excluded one of the Lots in your tax map so how do you exclude a lot in a tax map where did I exclude lot lot 40 in which block same block you mean lock 40 right here block 40 loock 3307 lock 40 yeah L of yeah it's right there okay it's in there where are the boundaries it is within eie street it's within the street so the the tax map is the block is the I'm sorry the lot is within Erie Street that's I want to be clear that is what the official tax data that is put out by both the township and the county represent yes okay so on that same map you indicate the area of the district you indicate the and that's outlin what in red yep okay um is that represent that Eastern Edge represent the property line of your employer of the property owner of my client yes okay and as per the gis tax data layer yes okay so you're relying on the town tax M and your owner relying on that correct and what and your and your owner is relying on that I mean your employer your employer the owner of the property is relying on that I mean he has his own surveys to understand what his actual boundaries are this is just a visual representation I think the town is now aware he has his own surveys because he just submitted one to the planning department and Al to survey for another application at the same site this week so I asked the question why wasn't that survey included in your report you mean the survey that was just submitted this week and a report that was submitted months ago yes because it's data 2019 it was an aled survey I didn't have that data I have the tax data that was provided by the that's available from the county and from the from the township so you didn't have the data but David Pik had the data because he submitted that survey I I don't want to uh interject cut off Mr rach's opportunity to ask questions but I'm not quite sure where we're going with this is there some suggestion that there's a problem with the information in the tax map uh I'm not sure where this is going either is that a question well it's more of an instruction it's more of an instruction I mean okay can we get to point of question my point is is that what he submitted was not a zoning uh tax map it was a zoning map it was a fact simil okay okay um and that I'll continue my the reason why it's important is because it goes to the question does the objector have standing in this case that's not an issue that's before this board at this point and I think it's fairly clear that they do have standing as the property owner any member why are you why are you saying that any member of the public can provide their comments so if we can I'm asking questions here you interrupted my line of questions and now I'm responding to you so sir I really would appreciate it if you just hear me out for a second you asked me what my line of thinking was the attorney asked me what my line of thinking was you asked me what my line of thinking respon line of thinking was that he did not represent the properties involved he said the red line ends according to the tax map he submits a survey that shows the property line ends at the buildings matter of fact about about 12 I'm sorry what's 30% of 12 of 12 Ines so that's where the building line lies so if you sir I'm going to instruct you if you would listen and open your mind you might learn something from this hearing I've given you enough I'm going to ask you to move move on okay will move on thank you I will move on um you mentioned in your report that there're on the you guys confuse me on the 610 eie Street Lot which is partial three that the building on the corner was um the office building I think you referred to it but the one on the corner of Erie and label was a storefront no you indicated storefront I said that it had a uh it had a facade an entry facade on the I guess that would be the East the Northeast side of the corner or northeast corner of the building which was actually depicted in one of the photographs but I did not say that it was a storefront okay so if I misread that it's not a storefront it was never a storefront in your report you weren't conveying it it's a storefront or store uh office space and Storehouse right but it wasn't a okay good I just want to clarify that um there is a some kind of trestle that connects lot 7 to lot six or parcel 3 to parcel 2 and do you know you said you had conducted a site inspection can you give us share some information about why these properties are not connected yet they still retain a Trestle structure that seems to connect and matter of fact there might be two besides the Box Storage that it's further down there stream well they're not connected and rephrase your question and and to which period are you speaking I'm speaking to right now well they're not connected now because they're two separate owners I believe no I'm talking about The Trestle okay let me rephrase let me raise the question today there are several structures that bridge Tony's Brook from parcel two to parcel three I'm not sure what they are but they seem to be Trestle type of structures at least one of seems to be a TR type structure that is not current it seems like it could have been something back in the day of the period of significance that the report that the hbc's report indicates so I'm just trying to understand if we're talking about structures what role does this structure this old historic structure not historically protect it but a historic structure plays in the connection between the two parcels and why would you imagine it's still there if it's obsolete and unused well there are two metal I beams that cross Tony's Brook at that location uh there is not necessarily the I beam tough sides I don't recall I do remember going there I know that there are two I beams that cross Tony's Brook at that location um the I beams possibly could have been associated with something but there's not enough structure remaining to actually tell that other than two I beams that are just crossing the brook so my job was not to conjecture what may or may not have been there necessarily but to look at the claims in the report and understand okay so you don't know so it wasn't your job I'm sorry so your job was not to conjecture okay so let's talk about conjecture or if it is conjecture in your report you mentioned that oil Jack had a lease with the township and that your footnote says you've attached you can find the the lease in figure 16 mhm um you also say that there was was a agreement I forget your exact wording you might have just copied the um the source document that it was understood there would only be assembly and warehousing or storage uh yes as a matter of fact it was uh an article that was published in the Montclair times July 9th 194 4 the title of it was label Street lease right and what was the last par what was essentially about besides the fact that the lease was created and what did they spend the last paragraph on uh with the view of carrying out the recommendation of the 1940 budget research group that a survey be made of the Bureau of Public Health nursing mayor Spears announced that no I Meed the part that was related to the lease the cancellation Clause was inserted Shephard pointed out in as much as the oil Jack firm has a contract with the British government for the manufacturer of uh parts for bombs for use in the current War should the war end the contract is subject to cancellation Shepard said it is understood the label Street property is to be used for storage and assembly purposes it it is understood who do you attribute that in that media report that who was it or what was it I'm sorry it's it's me is contract language is usually very specific it says certain things are are allowed and certain things are not allowed I don't understand the phraseology by the reporter that said it was understood it was my understanding that we were going to do something but that is not usually a least term so I wasn't alive in 1945 and I didn't write the article that's true but but I the reason why I bring it up is because your footnotes cited that could you read the footnote for that um section that I'm talking about the footnote I forget the number well I use parenthetical citations so I'm not sure there's no footnote to what what are the parenthetical citation say uh I believe it was just a reference to the actual page where to the actual report article excuse me could you read the parenthetical part uh C figure 16 and then uh see figure 16 and then Monclair times September 20th 1940 was another one at the end of that sentence see figure 16 was the only and then there's figure 16 and that's the I'm sorry that's the that's from the 723 report I thought that we were yes July 31st 2023 then I made a mistake because I saw a different reference in what I was reading so maybe the online version is a little bit different maybe um um let's go to back to parcel two I think somewhere in your report and I clearly I've been wrong tonight so um verify this um you said there was no manufacturing done um in the cement block buildings that there were some Tire warehousing and mounting or something along those lines M um and that was at the time was owned by the quadrel I think you mentioned yes and then it was purchased by re McDon or or they became a tenant which was another tire similar Tire type of operation I guess okay are you agreeing that that's accurate or you just don't know well I don't remember every word of every report I've ever written no where there ongoing Tire operations there the reason why I bring it up I'll cut to the chase um is that did you come AC did you check any of the monair time citations or the public record for variance requests by the quadr to um have light manufacturing operations specifically um Tire Vulcanizing and retreading or whatever they call it yes okay so you knew they made a variance application for light manufacturing variance for resurfacing tires yes just applying here okay and then did you come across obviously you didn't come across that R McDon also made a similar variance that ra mcdna made a similar variance request a year later for the same parcel I don't recall I may have okay so you don't remember okay um so with these variances request would you say that indicates there were manufacturing light or otherwise going on in these buildings in light of the conversations that we've had EXP understanding the uh definition of manufacturing to include uh light assembly and such as we've had this evening then yes would the definition would it meet the definition the town's definition of manufacturing based on the what you've learned this evening you would have to ask the town but if it's a light manufacturing variance what could you assume I'm not a zoning expert I don't purport to be but you put zoning map in the okay well if you have issues with the the gis data you have to take that up I have I'm also going to object there there's uh no indication there's a prior zoning map submitted the just for the record so you understand where the difference is if you look at the tax map and how they treat ering Street and the name you can provide those comments when it's time for comments just let's go with the questions he just raised an objection in the middle of my that's fine I didn't make any ruling he can say he can object as much as he wants it doesn't mean anything unless I rule on it I appreciate that um I have a question I'd like to speak okay well then I defer to you I see the I'm sorry I didn't get your name Scott Scott h wisor okay you'd be a great speaker for the roran society so I'm going to give you my card I'm sorry I couldn't hear what the previous gentleman spoke about so I don't know if I'm repeating but I want to compliment you on your presentation just forther record did you just state your name again I'm sorry just state your name again Adriana OT 48 South Willow Street house over 100 years old but uh my question is um would you agree that changing the name of this whole application would apply because what you have done is given the whole history of the development of a community from rural period today it has reflected everything the uh the labels that were created because it was a huge business and canned products and they need colorful labels uh the war during the war they hired people work 24 hours a day uh this small area which I'm calling a District reflects the history of this country in a tiny area that's what the developers should be doing because should make a Disney out of it and have people come and learn the history it's it was in your presentation it was terrific presentation of the history of Monclair and of the development and the reasons for the work during the wars and then the decline and then the depression and the what was that Bar's name I can never think of the name of it is this ears cers Richie cers that you call kep calling it something else cers people know what it was but I think that's that's what has to be saved is the area for the potential of the history that can be the whole area they could as they they could redevelop it and people could use the buildings that aren't whatever but that the potential is in the history of that and of course you might have to do it parcel by parcel but um is this yours no that's the towns oh anyway that's my comment don't you think that that would be a possibility uh it could be it would be up to the develop to to the property owners the developers in the town to work that out I mean it's not a big area really really it's definitely the history of it is phenomenal it's definitely an interesting idea but uh it's it's up to these folks to work out well I know take them a long time thank you for your time thank you any any members of the public with questions quick quick question my my name is Daniel Leo okay I'm a house owner in the neighborhood um curious if you know the history of the and apologize if I I came um a little late so if this it's been talking about the I'm curious if you know the history of the um original intention for the placement of the 1937 building I did not I don't off the top of my head now would you would it surprise you if uh to learn that um that prior to Landing in this District it was uh proposed to be near Anderson Park that I didn't know par would it would it make more sense in your mind aesthetically to land in the district that it's in now I'm not familiar with that District to compare and do you know beyond my scope do you know the demographics of the district at the time in 1937 uh not on a mass level for that area no and do you have an idea of the difference between cars then and cars now I mean besides being a car owner and you know liking classic cars that's about as far as my knowledge goes in 1937 would you say that the emissions of cars were different than they are now oh yeah so if there were cars down label Street down Grove Street for miles would you say that impacts a neighborhood differently than it might now traffic's always an issue right and if the if that neighborhood was historically in African-American neighborhood would you say that it's reflective of a social inequity that is relevant to Historic and National Trends it could be uh could be interpreted that way could also be interpreted other ways but yeah that is definitely an interpretation and are is the African-American community of Monclair an important Community for the history of Monclair i' say from a my own personal perspective all communities or all aspects of a community are important no further questions thank you any other questions from the public having seen none I'm going to uh close the uh public questioning portion um and Mr trer you uh have no further Witnesses no further no fur sorry no further Witnesses um Miss hickey do you have any questions of the um the witness I don't I think the the board covered much of what I was thinking um do you have any additional comments uh based on the testimony uh the the only only thing I think is the that the there should be a consideration um for the value of the vernacular okay what do you mean by that Miss hickey uh we talked a lot about high style and uh architecture in architecture but the vernacular is an important resource uh category to consider and I would consider I think we should consider that in your evaluation of the nomination and how does it relate to is a two-part question the individual sites and then the cohesiveness of the proposed District um I think the the individual properties particularly on parcel 3 probably carry a more vernacular uh connotation of their their use and and out outline where I think the um the automobiles inspection station designed by an architect does have a a more rigid uh adherence to its architectural features but that doesn't mean the two are disjointed it just means that the it's a and it's it's a more inclusive approach to looking at the district okay all right anything else all right uh that being said we're going to close um the portion of the hearing for uh testimony and we'll start out with uh comments from the public and then a closing by the uh property owner and given the late hour I'd ask that uh comments uh be limited to about four minutes hi Bonnie Fogle Forest Street um H Mr Troutman I found your uh I found some of your questions fascinating for Miss Bennett H I wanted to ask you did you have an extensive conversation with Martin Schwarz before taking the case for Howard silver you you're not obligated to answer these questions this is just your public comments you can't cross-examine the attorney unfortunately you know I I just found his questioning about different individuals to be so interesting I was wondering what his relationship was so um I'm here essentially to encourage a designation vote for landmark status uh of the label Street historic district I I was under the impression this had been a settled matter when the planning board denied the proposal for a 5 to8 story mixed use Residential Building I I remember when that happened and the only change that occurred since then through the past time and the four postponements it was the acquisition of the same exact property by new owner um it's the only difference I don't know why we're going through this again um I live right down the street from Walnut Street and it's a lovely small scale rehabed commercial district and it's it's developed and it's turned that way organically and while anyone could see that adaptive use of the restaurant is needed very badly needed plus people who know how to run it um the historic Factory building is an asset to Montclair it's the kind of thing that makes people want to move here and live here and it gives Monclair its charm and makes it special and desirable um I spent a lot of time looking through the the paage report and M Miss Bennett's report and reading the minutia of of legal things but I think what we what everybody in Monclair knows is what their experiences of living here and generally I think most people really respect and love the historic elements of Monclair and I hope more of them are not removed thank you Linda Cranston on Alexander Avenue I wanted to is this on Linda Cranston I wanted to mention for those of you that aren't aware of it since there was some of the criteria for designating a historic district has to do with the importance of the Town culture and history that during the um review of the master plan in 2014 2015 residents in the Walnut Street area insisted that this zoning continue as a mixed you mixed use and small manufacturing area so it's still important to the residents in this town that not only the history but the continued use of this neighborhood which you still see secondly um I wanted to add something to M to's comments about tourism the bid has been working on getting grants and getting Mont Clair established to be a nor more more tourism here the Walnut Street area would certainly be an area that people could have tours of of small manufacturing which has disappeared in most of the country the last thing I think if we were concerned about the um some of the criteria of buildings remaining exactly the same not using current the whatever materials are available for repairs not considering the new owners going in and out over the decades and none of the current historic districts in town would be historic Bloomfield Avenue wung and Upper Montclair all have changes made by owners through the decades thank you good evening thank you everyone for your service um my my name is Johanna coxer I live on Lincoln Street and I'm here to say I'm strongly in favor of creating a historic district for label Street like many people I moved here because of the character because of the sense of place and it's not just houses this includes commercial industrial Light manufacturing areas as well and the variety of uses that they are put to over the years and there are very few places with as much documented history is label Street other manufacturing areas have been preserved with only partial Integrity we have a lot more than most this area clearly represents the broad patterns of our history please preserve this rare surviving example of manufacturing in our town thank you any other members of the public wish to uh provide comments all right seeing none I'm going to close that portion and uh open it up to Mr troutner to provide his closing statement thank you and uh thank everyone for your time this evening I it's it's not a stretch to suggest uh it's no coincidence that eight or nine days after b& development spoke at a public meeting in September of 20 2022 about the potential to develop uh 610 eie Street for multif family and Transit Orient development was even the potential for studying the label Street manufacturing District proferred as a discussion item for the historic preservation commission it's been alleged that the nomination report was driven uh because the label Street manufacturing District was uh recommended for historic consideration in the Township's uh historic preservation element of the master plan but that's not really an accurate statement while the the master plan does identify a label Street worker housing area as a potential historic resource the label Street worker housing area is identified as Residential Properties on friendship Fidelity and Oak a place that were historically used to house workers employed at the Crump label Factory the label Street worker housing area is limited to residential uses and it specifically excludes the label uh label Street uh which the master plan notes is included within the proposed Walnut Street area however the discussion of the Walnut Street area makes no reference to label Street or the properties identified in the nomination report and nowhere in the master plan is there a discussion of the characteristics uh that the nomination report claims to qualify label Street as a historic resource specifically uh the manufacturing use that's been discussed uh often this evening as a basis for the proposed designation in fact the in the entirety of the historic preservation element of the master plan the word manufacturing only mentioned once uh in relation to Residents commuting to New York but uh more perhaps more importantly um you'll recall that prior to the label Street manufacturing District being profer as a discussion item for the HPC over six years had lapsed since the data historic preservation element of the master plan uh element was adopted by the planning board so to State it bluntly no one ever considered studying a label Street manufacturing District until the township planning department undertook an area in need of Redevelopment study at 610 E Straight and even then nothing happened until many many months later no doubt because the planning board elected not to recommend the property for inclusion in an area in need of Redevelopment uh but then many months later a developer began to publicly speak about another plan to develop the site and and then here we here we are so let's consider the study area it's only three Parcels uh and they have one notable thing in common uh uh except for the fact that the ownership of the parcels is limited to owners who either have publicly expressed or at least at one point in time an interest in the Redevelopment of their property or in other instances are actually owned by a real estate developer what appears to be the obvious motivation in studying the label Street manufacturing D District so to attempt uh is to attempt to thwart or constrain the potential development or Redevelopment of the site and respectfully submited that's not an appropriate objective of the powers conferred to the historic preservation commission uh to propose properties for designation the power to designate buildings or structures and sites uh and to designate them as historic is conferred by the state of New Jersey to municipalities under the opes of the municipal land use law and that's then conferred by the township to the historic preservation commission pursuant to the municipal zoning code it does not permit individuals uh or other residents to seek to have the historic preservation commission unduly exercise its procedures for designation in an inappropriate matter designed to limit or circumvent the role of the Township Council and adopting zoning uh to govern what type of development will or will not be permitted in Monclair and it's not supposed to limit or circumvent the role of the planning board or the Zoning Board of adjustment in exercising their respective power to review and evaluate applications for site plan approval or proposed Redevelopment designations or Redevelopment plans that might otherwise govern govern the future development of property in Montclair yet that appears to be precisely what certain individuals and members of the public are seeking to have the historic preservation commission do in this instance and for the reasons articulated by uh Mr wizor the proposed designation as a landmark district is inappropriate without needing to repeat all of Mr wizer's testimony I would reiterate the fact that the that the three Parcels of the the subject of the nomination report are not a district because they are uh in Mr gor's opinion not United by any aesthetic continuity uh nor historics theme nor commonality uh in preparing for this evening I I had listened back to the recording of the meeting uh back in September 2022 where members of the public referred to 610 eie Street as the Crump Factory building again it's not and I heard statements to the effect that the building currently located at 61 street is the actual building depicted in the George inis portrait which is in the nomination report and again it's not and I bring this up because it's important for members of this commission uh to not allow local mythology uh that may be driven by call it oral history uh to supersede or be given greater weight than the actual facts and the actual history of the subject properties and at the risk of waxing too poetic I'm going to quote John F Kennedy because I rarely get to do this at a hearing the great enemy of the truth is very often not the LIE deliberate contrived and dishonest but the myth persistent persuasive and unrealistic Kathleen Bennett's nomination report provides a great deal of insight into some of mon Clair's Rich history that while generically related to an area of town where the subject Parcels are located for the reasons expressed in Mr wizor testimony report does not support the creation of a label Street manufacturing District Miss Bennett's research and writing May provide a foundation for this commission and for the township to potentially pursue other worthy historic preservation Endeavors but that being said the members of this commission should resist the temptation to feel as a matter of inertia or public pressure or otherwise that because a nomination report has been prepared that this commission should somehow struggle to bootstrap a rationale any rationale particularly because of some perceived association with Mr crump's Legacy to vote in favor of designating these Parcels as part of a historic district I would submit that these Parcels are only United by two themes they're over 50 years old and there's a fear they might be redeveloped there are no doubt many worthy properties and districts identified in the historic preservation element of the master plan that are worthy of this committee's time and attention to study for potential Landmark status and there is separate from the proceedings a mean for individuals opposed to the development or Redevelopment of the parcels that are the subject of the nomination report uh to oppose their Redevelopment or development that would involve voicing opinions to the township Council the planning board or the Zoning Board of adjustment who might someday hear petitions to amend zoning or grad variances from such zoning or or whatever the case is but opposing development is not supposed to be through the misapplication of Standards governing the designation of historic districts and for that reason for the reasons substantiated by Mr gizor uh and E2 project management in their report uh we hope that the members of this commission uh as stewards for the commission and the role it's supposed to play will soundly consider the objective facts and applicable standards that have been identified at least we believe in Mr Razor's report and testimony uh that contrast against the aforementioned mythology that's been proferred an attempt to I would suggest manipulating backing into a particular result uh a a result being pursued for reasons uh that that we respectfully submit have a little or enough to do with legitimate historic preservation that's my closing thank you um before we entertain a motion on whether or not to recommend uh designation of any of these properties or District as whole I would like to just defer to Miss Bower um on just a quick procedural recitation of the significance of uh the vote and what uh the the commission should be considering in terms of formulation of a motion advice chair are we permitted to give our final comments as well yeah okay you want to do that first the comments um I'd like the procedure to kind of shape the comments sure um well first of all um bear in mind that n picki uh recommended removing the word manufacturing at the beginning so you know there was a lot ofr that excuse me bear in mind that Miss hickey recommended at the outset of removing the word manufacturing and just um entertaining a uh a uh motion for the label Street historic district there was still an awful lot of uh focus on manufacturing both pro and con if you will uh tonight so the the motion would be uh to forward the uh nomination report uh to uh the governing body uh if you're inclined to do that if you're not then obviously the motion would uh be not to do that but the um nomination report to designate uh these Parcels as an historic district goes to the governing body uh to for its consideration um and that's that's really it the um the standard is under the um the municipal land use law and and actually the portions of it were uh set out well in the PowerPoint uh which you all have a copy of and that's one of the reasons why I asked um the questions of Mr wizor uh that I did with respect to what um sections of the code control um so you heard my questions and you heard um his answers for instance there's not a definition of the period of significance um uh the code um um a definition of a district is one or more historic sites and intervening or surrounding property significantly affecting or affected by the quality and character of the historic sites or historic site or sites um so it doesn't have to relate to manufacturing at all just as an uh for instance and um I think I think the only other um uh criteria to bear in mind is criteria a which Miss hickey also recommended um was the uh most applicable criteria which is associated with events that have made significant contribution to the broad patterns of our history um and that was addressed by a number of the people especially on this side of the um of the d uh from the commission um so that's really the the summary of it and the the motion would be to um approve or or not to approve and forward to the governing body um in uh formulating the motion does the commission have to make any specific findings in terms of um uh the criteria that we uh believe would justify or can we just say you know the report stands on its own aside from removal of the word manufacturing well I definitely think you have to incorporate your professionals um opinions if you're going to rely on your professionals opinions and that would be um those that were stated by Miss hickey tonight um uh you can go ahead and make findings as you wish you can make them as detailed or as um you know sort of broader summary as you like um but generally speaking you're going to be incorporating um the nomination report and Miss hickey's opinions um into the nomination so what how much you want to recite of that that's up to you but there's no requirement for us to make this motion we just have to recommend um that it meets one of the criteria and for the report and the comments of miss hiy you should identify the criteria and the facts supporting that um what makes a resolution um appropriate is to recite the facts on which the um vote is um set forth and and approved um and therefore those facts are going to have to be in the resolution um with the planning department we write the resolution and identify the facts so you you definitely want to do that um but like I said that it's not unusual to um incorporate the report and your professionals opinions so thank you so that being said uh before we make the motion I'd like to open it up for comments that way we can reach some sort of consensus and formulating the motion and uh eventual recommendation whether to pursue or not to um we'll start on this side Mr Sweeney my view is the area has the area meaning the land the has significant his history but it relates to manufacturing history it would meet several the criteria I think all of the properties however I think the level of Integrity of the various buildings is so low that I don't think it raises to the level to Warrant the area as a district we could call it a historic district but you could do that any place in Montclair you can say something historical happened let's connect a couple buildings together and a couple Lots I think here the the usage of the buildings were not clearly manufacturing I think manuf facturing did occur on the land but not in the the buildings and I think the um there's not enough consistency coherence or sameness that would connect the the buildings or the parcels together except that on that site manufacturing occurred but all the buildings were torn down so while I I I got to say the report was fascinating to covered a history that none of us probably knew before and it warrants some recognition of the area but I don't believe it warrants designation of the three properties together as a historic district commissioner Ryman I'm going to agree with everything you said except for the the comment that it doesn't hang together in terms of significant features and to me it's I walk down the street I know where I am I look at that and to me that neighbor that District hangs together it doesn't have the ornate little Bobble on a on a whatever but I think as utilitarian buildings located there and their history I'd have to disagree with you so I agree with Mr ryus but I'd also I'd first like to make a comment that I did not appreciate um insinuations and accusations imping the chair uh chair Bennett's Integrity um Ive in my time working on this board she's always conducted herself uh with the upmost integrity and with a commitment to following the law and doing the right thing and I think this board has as well so it was not chair Bennett's fault that uh an area in need of Redevelopment study came before the planning board uh it was not her fault that that study revealed a rich history that we were not all familiar with it's not her fault that she then you know took an interest in it and wanted to find out more about this district and I agree with Miss oul uh what she had stated about how this really does um encapsulate not just Monclair his but American history with you know the highs first of all agriculture highs of manufacturing boom lows of the Great Depression highs of World War II comeback uh I I I think um as uh Miss Bower had noted we need to demonstrate a broad pattern of History I I don't think it gets uh you can see more of a pattern than that uh you're you're also I think these three sites here I think are are are um related in the sense that you see the manufacturing boom you see the uh the transition of the neighborhood to the to the um uh suburban area with the you know uh motor vehicles um taking prominence in this region um I think the history of this place um and then oil Jack being such a a a prominent U company in this community uh employing so many people in this community using those sites for their manufacturing operation I think it's impossible to argue that those warehouses were not part of a manufacturing operation um and I think the members of the public who mentioned the racial Trends in Montclair I think that is a is a um factor in this that needs even more study but overall I think um uh Miss uh Bennett I think her chair Bennett I think her report um aptly demonstrated why this should be we should support the the label Street manufacturing uh District as a um uh we should designate it as a historic district I agree with everything the three of you have said um specific parts of each one um I particularly agree with Miss hickey's motion to possibly change the naming of this to a historic district versus a manufacturing District um I see a lot of continuity from the crumb buildings to all the way through the inspection building being built um if not for specific manufacturing uses for historic uses relevant to monir's local history um I don't think mythology is a good term for this these are real events that happen throughout the history of the Town um mythology is not real um and I think that the style of the buildings is pretty cohesive as John said and as Miss hickey said that it's vernacular it doesn't fall into a style of queenanne or Victorian but vernacular is buildings that are built with what's available and what's appropriate for the type of use and all of these buildings fall under that category they're masonry buildings built in the masonry style of a industrial or manufacturing building of that time um so there is an aesthetic cohesiveness to those buildings um I think it's wrong to say that they is no aesthetic cohesiveness and historical significance wise I think there is a continuity um although the crumb buildings are not there anymore the spirit of the original use of the crumb building was continued through the building that does exist today that was built in 1906 and used as the printing company so there's continuity through there so I think um calling it the label Street historic district is appropriate and it should be thought of as a whole um I'm for creating a district here whether it's called a historic district or manufacturing that makes no difference to me and I agree with John about you just take one look at the place and you know exactly what it is it's nice that we now know what the history of the area was and why it was um manufacturing was there or different types of businesses and how it's continued on with the new sort of businesses that are there now um that's about it thank you yeah I I think I'd like to Echo the sentiments of commissioner gagano I think he uh um summarized the key facts very well um especially concerning the fact that uh we are tasked with evaluating the site uh in conjunction with the ordinance which controls and as Miss Bower pointed out is um much more flexible than the uh uh doe DOI standards um in terms of the criteria I think the uh report and Miss hickey's comments support findings under criteria 13 and five um you know while buildings have been altered uh I think the fabric Still Remains there there's a lot of original elements still in place uh on all the structures and there is a cohesive history um marking the significance of the site um and with respect to those ancillary discussions regarding you know Redevelopment and alterior motives you know as M Mr troutner is well aware there is a established body a case law distinguishing motive from purposes and as our uh ordinance establishes that historic preservation is a legitimate government purpose the mlu El establishes that so as long as these uh structures meet the criteria then a legitimate government per purpose is Advanced and you know without casting aspersions or making any determinations about The credibility of those accusations regardless they're relevant their motive um so uh you know that being said uh I think the the the facts seduced uh in the reports speak for themselves uh I think the insinuation that uh this would inhibit Redevelopment you just have to look at our downtown historic district and you can see plenty of Redevelopment taking place um I think it's it's done in a really positive manner so um I mean with that being said I think I would support uh uh recommendation to the council as the ultimate decider of whether or not this should be uh designated um and with that I'll entertain a motion um Janice did you want to say something okay um and uh I think the motion would be to uh designate the uh to recommend the uh referral to the governing body for the designation of the um the label Street historic district um uh under criteria 1 3 and five uh based on the findings in the June 2023 report and the uh comments and testimony of our uh uh preservation consultant Miss hickey I second oh that that would be the motion the motion okay so Mr RIT uh I moves moves I second all right uh roll call vote Jason Heyman yes Stefan Rooney yes John remnitz yes Michael Graham yes Gerald Sween no Nicholas Juliano yes do I take it from did you did you call the chair she's the attorney oh but I didn't call the chair because she she's you got to call I mean chair oh I was first I did okay fine sorry yeah the resolution passes going on 11:30 now yeah so um we're going to let Kathleen take control of the meeting and then we'll take a vote on whether we proceed with the other applications good job it was it was a job that was a tough one a good job you're one of pun where do you live hor live in London I have to drive all the way down the shore so you're doing way better than I am Tom and I have to get a new car accid wait is that why all the cops were out on Bloomfield Avenue no that we were on um Walnut oh there was uh a busy night as I was I well the thing is I have to allow so much time field yeah that was in bloomfields we just we got hit over here yeah it was in oh well it and then I went over to Franklin and then there was another one when I then I cut back over I don't know on what street back onto Bloomfield and I but in monair well I'm not completely sure which town I was in at that point but pretty close to Montclair if not in Montclair and the and the police were setting up there were two police cars and they were setting up cones and everything and I thought what is going on here it took me like half an hour to get through Monclair and only an hour and a half to get from lawrenville no we uh I was actually on a conference call and he was driving and he ex like we got here early cuz I had to be on the conference SCH at 6:30 so I fig let's just get in the car and do it there and so he was extending the drive like he was just driving around and we were at a stop sign and a woman ran the stop sign and H the the car and then she lost of the car and ended up in in Tom's front oh yeah yeah is lovely stop she was like she was like that was his fault like no lady you ran the stop sign she's like but I counted one two three and I don't know what you're doing but I'm walking away I am walking away from this I was only a passenger and all I saw we coming at us oh my God so much yeah but his car had to be towed so we got to take U oh my god well where where is he's in CR my car is at his house I'm in Lyon oh yeah our office is in I live you want to r l what do you want to do CU I was going to say I'm just driving down the Parkway right the second one for thank you yeah I agree okay which is Bel you so you're going to make a motion to you make the motion to change the order of uh so the first would be a motion to the meeting oh extend the in your discretion you can change the order of presentation you need that's up to the chair it sounds like yeah okay thank you everyone for uh it's now 11:22 um we are going to move we are beyond the time under our bot laws that we can continue uh with new applications or testimony so we need to take a vote on whether we can extend the meeting uh CU we do have at least one application that uh they're here traveling from I think out of state so um I'd make them oh sorry you want to call for a motion yes would someone please make a motion to extend the meeting to listen motion to extend 12 midnight okay motion to extend till midnight second all in favor I I okay thank you so so um we are going to now hear application um 20 23-39 208 biew Avenue so with the people that are here please come forward try uh I don't know we got if we can if we can do it in I think we got a chance 20 minutes how much you have a chance yeah we can be as brief or as detail I think we've seen at your wait another 15 minutes and if we can get get through them then um we can hear yours as well okay we brought a few exhibits but I think um we also have a file that we share so um I will introduce while uh while it the ex exhibit is being uh put on the computer okay sure um so this is a application for a certificate of appropriateness it is number 20 23-39 20 208 bellw Avenue the subject property is located on the northwest side of bellw Avenue between Valley and North View Avenue it is a one-story building um in the uh Upper Montclair historic district the building was constructed in 1880 and and as I mentioned before it is mentioned in the 2006 upper Monclair historic business district and is identified as harmonizing so the proposal is the applicant proposes to make alterations to the one-story commercial space located at Belleview Avenue proposals to make alterations to the faade of the building which will include the replacement of the existing doors and windows the existing water will be replaced by a wood Canopy and the paint of the building is proposed to change um detoy also the exterior light fixtures front facade alterations side elevation alterations and signant details are provided in the plan so thank you for bearing with us so late at night if you would um our attorney will swear you in before you give testimony if you identify yourself and your relationship to the project sure my name is Jason Cohen I'm the owner and CEO of northeas architectural uh we're going to we have signed a lease and we'll be moving into this building I also have Jen Sulton here who is one over the project Architects with the architectural Studio that's working with us on this uh design I would just like to uh just a comment I am not a licensed architect I'm just representing uh the architect for the project okay and are are have a third person here yeah or going to help Advance this oh I have I have a few of my employees here I also have the uh landlords of the building the Fisher family are here representing us as well okay okay and Kim what is your last name Jen uh saltan uh Jennifer saltan oh sorry okay so raise your right hand oh sorry uh do you swear or affirm that the testimony you'll provide on this application the commission tonight is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes yes okay if you could proceed with your testimony please sure um just quickly introduce the company so Northeast architectural is a a provider and consultant of custom Windows Doors Cabinetry and decorative Hardware uh we have another location in mamin New York uh I'm also the owner of the company that owns Northeast architectural which is called Northeast LLC we have four uh divisions in Connecticut and we sell product and install product across the tri-state area uh we have an active team that works in the state of New Jersey uh up until a year ago we were in Long Branch and we shut down that location to move to beautiful Montclair uh where we do a lot of business in this County and other surrounding counties as well uh some of that team is sitting back here who works on that Pro on that those projects um we work primarily with the architectural design and Custom Contracting community in New Jersey um so thank you very much for seeing us and uh I appreciate you guys uh extending the meeting uh it means a lot uh it took me a long time to get here um and uh we are we're very excited about this project so I'll uh as um Kathleen as you shared just I'll have Jen dive into a few details but just a quickly introduce the the highle changes to the building um we are going to be proposing a change to the facade we will be replacing the windows with doors uh we will be at replacing the awning with a a new canopy a wood trellis we'll be adding some architectural siding details and we'll be changing the color of the the out the essentially the front part of the building um so those are kind of the main highlevel changes that are taking place um just specifically about the the windows and doors so the the windows on the side elevation will be changing to uh leage mill work which is an architecturally correct historic window that comes from uh Canada and uh the front the doors will be these this beautiful folding doors called centur uh also architecturally correct um which will be replacing these current fixed just glass units that have been in there for probably 50 60 years um Jen anything you would like to add um no I think you covered everything okay uh so uh actually if you go back one a quick slide so you can see a little bit of the Interior fit out we're doing a complete renovation of the interior uh that's going to have multiple displays a live kitchen um a conference area it's meant to actually be not just a studio to show products but a studio to invite in clients and Architects designers that they can spend time in with their clients and kind of introduce them to things uh it's it's a little bit unique typically you see only kitchen showrooms only Appliance showrooms this is a bit of a I would say a luxury cocktail of a variety of things that uh has worked for us in our other showroom uh just came to mind uh just letting know that the landscape will be rained and just enhanced uh however we are going to be reconstructing the sidewalk to adhere to ADA requirements yeah thank you thank you um any other uh we can just scroll through if you want did you have an opportunity to review the uh report from Connelly and hickey yes I believe we did there was one piece of feedback around the uh Monument sign that's been removed from our most recent submission uh we'll submit the signage plan uh on in a the subsequent hearing um so we're only here to discuss the elevation and exterior change nothing to do with the signage M and just to be clear to go back to your to your first um illustration that you've you've portrayed it as a standalone where there is something behind it correct another it's a oh so yeah so essentially I just wondered what the Fisher family live behind it yeah so there's um so behind our our front building is uh I think it's a two-story apartment essentially three story yeah so yeah there's a a few families that live behind it okay Y no I just wanted to make sure that um yes you're correct that was just to accentuate the uh what the design the changes okay thank you um yeah I think we can open it up to questions any questions from the commission start I just have one um I assume you've already checked but just the sign is um maximum size and size of the glass relative to the facade are all within the ordinance um of the town's design guidelines specifically on the sign that's on the building yeah so that sign is within ordinance but again we're not looking for confirmation of that today but but what is on the building is within ordinance okay yeah so you'll come back to um which committee the uh well we'll see if you want a monument sign that will require a variance oh so I I'm actually I mean I I'm I'm trying not to I would love to get the sign that's on the building approved as part of this approval process but it's not necessary uh the monument sign is not 100% necessary we would be doing that outside of this require a board exactly yeah okay but I can tell you that the the building sign it does comport where their zoning requirements that you have that so we could approve it as we made we made the changes per your guys your all your recommendations and is that the only sign on the band on the top yes there's no window or do nothing on the W window no so as you what's what's beautiful about the facade now is we're going to have this really beautiful entryway door and then both the flanking doors to the right and left opening completely uh so like there will be you'll be able to see into the building almost uh on you know on a nice day uh there'll also be full shade and screen on both both sides uh so it'll be kind of an indoor outdoor feel and as Jen said we're leaving the Landscaping um and just enhancing the sidewalk a little bit so it will be a really nice environment um Jerry do you have any questions no I don't thank you Mike no questions um Mr R uh questions what is the m what's the cladding material uh the cling material would be uh Hardy Board recessive uh panels painted okay uh with uh a blue with a blue that is mentioned on the on the sheet I believe it's mention more is Polo Blue okay did you see one of the comments from Mr Conley's report about the color I I think I remember seeing something that perhaps that come up with a color that's more consistent yeah the applicants are encouraged to select color schemes that are compatible with surrounding structure to create sense of visual content new in the district is the blue a branding thing or is it a yeah so the the the blue is part of our brand guideline pallet um we did uh so two buildings down is this like really beautiful brick uh black uh building actually one of our customers happens to occupy a lease there um so it was uh it's it's meant it's intended to be something that stands out and feels you know modern but also uh in in conjunction with the rest of the street uh we didn't think it didn't work um but it is a color that kind of means it means a lot to us because of it's it's within our guidelines okay um is this is this color that I see is this indicative of it or that's correct yeah okay oh that would be great uh then I only have one other question which is question yeah so here's just a better look at the col okay Jenny should we Mark the um that what A1 A1 okay my other question is about the signage if we're going to look to approve it what is what's it made out of is it like raised vinyl letters or what is it back lit um sometimes we see backlit LED letters what what is the signage made out of uh the letters are going to be pinned and uh there is going to be lights at the bottom um just there is actually go to the oh yeah the the lights um wait that's oh yeah that's it that's uh I don't know how clearly you could see it um but there will be lights below the sign to light it from above From Below sorry wait they're light they're they're surface mounted lights pointing up at the yes so they're not Halo Lo no okay I have any other questions and where is the where is the illumination coming from on top of the Anning it's going to be it's between the awning and the sign okay um any other questions no questions all right so Jerry no Jerry doesn't have any um we'll open up for a comment before we open up to the public any questions oh I should say any questions from the public no no okay why we open up for discussion then we'll start Steve have Mr Rooney I I have no questions no comment comment comment no comment no uh Nick um I I have no significant comment I don't have any issue with the color of the building I think the streetscape you know immediately to the left and to the right's kind of a hodgepodge of colors there's that really modern kind of building two doors down you have a brick one right next to you um you know I think this kind of fits in there's a lot of gray charcoal color buildings you know in the area um other than that I think it's a really beautiful facade um I like these kind of buildings because they're being in architectural sales they're indicative of what you could do with your project so they're often very beautiful facades that show kind of the best of every type of window or light fixture so I think it's a really nice improvement over what's there so you're hired thank you I want your card after the meeting I'm an architect so Mr Graham I can't put it as eloquently but I agree and I I I like this facade I'm very supportive of the project um I'm also supportive of the project and as an architect I can't wait to come and oh thank you partake so thank you oh well done job this is beautiful you guys did a really great job y I don't have anything else to Adam support the application Mr Sweeney I support I support the project as is okay and I think it's a a very beautiful rendition um did you look at Mr Conley's comments uh I don't have them up maybe yeah they are right here uh yeah keep supp yeah right and it was just the paint colors that but we and then confirmation of the signage right which the which would you uh you provided for the building and if it's Monument signed you said you're not going to uh go forward with the Min sign right well if we choose to do that we'll go forward with that outside of you know in a subsequent process we do that have to get a variance because based on the commment said that it has to be 5T away from the property line and 5T away from problem line is the building so you know that it's going to be up for discussion later just to confirm our ordinance does not you cannot have a wall sign and a monument sign you have one so if you want both you have to get a variant that's the way it works it thank you all right thank you um so and no other comments then so uh sure I'll uh I'll make a motion to approve subject to revisions to remove the monument sign um for Mis approval I second should we do a roll call M yeah please Kathleen Bennett yes Jason Hinman yes Stefan Rooney yes John remnet yes Michael Graham yes Gerald Sweeny yes Nicholas Juliano yes okay thank so it's been approved thank you very much Pati okay then 20 minutes okay we have what's that mountain 30 yes what about yes yes 20 minutes we said to 12 right yes Mr Lynn do you want to approach thank you for your patience too I think it's way past everyone yeah you're a trooper um so uh this is application 20 23-15 30 North Mountain Avenue Peter and Jessica Lynn it's site improvements um so we there's I'm trying to find the papers you have uh what you submitted to us correct I do okay planning memo yes a planning memo um so there are a couple of different things here um first of all I just want to uh talk about the building significance it's known as Evergreens or the Schultz House it's an individual local Landmark property in the township it was um designed by Michelle LeBron a very famous uh National internationally known uh architect added to the National register in 1979 and the building itself the three-story residence was built in 1896 there is a two-story carriage house behind and um it's on the property is located on the corner lot at the southwest corner of the intersection of North Mountain and Claremont the property is now owned as a single family residents but was previously owned by the Montclair History Center and used for tours so Mr ly um we have a number of things that you've submitted I've started with that I have to find My Notes but if you uh before you begin your testimony we need to swear you in do you swear or affirm that the testimony you'll provide on the application of the commission tonight is the truth the whole truth nothing about the truth I do okay thank you so why don't we go so can you take over while I find my notes um the start with the number one um oh the for the proposal right okay so uh the first item on the proposal so this was uh this application encompasses several um minor modifications to the property in sight some of which have been completed some which is not so the first item is the construction of a 6t wide concrete stair uh it's spaced 12 ft from the front porch that work has been completed and uh it needs to come before the commission for approval um the second item is construction of a 25 ft long retaining wall using stones found on the property that has not been completed third item is installation of a permanent seedar wood pergola to the rear of the house uh that has not been completed the fourth item item is the installation of a stone walkway uh from a reconstructed concrete stair at the northwest corner of the property that has not been completed fifth is installation of the Belgian block curbing for the first 10 ft of the driveway off North Mountain Avenue that is not been completed uh installation of the Belgium Block and item six installation of the Belgium Block curbing at the new walkway uh from the St on Claremont Avenue that has not been completed is that a accurate recitation of the work that you're proposing yes there's a couple other um there's one other thing in the original application which is some Belgium Block curving that is not from the stairs of Claremont but is can be seen from Claremont which is that last photo it's a very you can kind of see it just that's the one thing that it's the stairwell on this on the side of Claremont Avenue uh so there's the corner on either side going up from the stairs but then there's also some dolge block that you can see cuz there's a parking lot there's like the parking lot there okay and so you can see some of that belg block curving the belg block curving goes all the way around but again you can't see my understanding is that the commission has jurisdiction of what can be seen from public right ways so that's what I put in this application so and you can see it right at the bottom it's like sort of like right right here you can kind of see it okay so that's why I put it in there what I I don't know well I everything you submitted is up there I'm not sure what's what so are we dealing with six or seven items well I that was six but I don't know what the description of that seven was was additional Curbing and that has not has that been completed it has completed okay Jan was that something that was cited by by the building department was there were there permits for that or is that something you mean the Bel and block curs yeah no the building department I don't think was involved in this I curving doesn't require yeah I'm curious why yeah is that something that needs approval from this board the Belgium Block curving yeah I don't think so okay so let's start with the staircase there are a few just there are a few other things that were added on there are yeah the gutters I think I submit they you got them in your package they want he wants to replace the gutters actually there's no gutters there I need to install gutters you need to install okay okay there's no gutters now no gutters there it's going to be half and he wants to put railroad email railroad ties um along the property line oh the gutter right yeah and those gutters have been installed no okay the picture that you submitted with your email is that a sample that's just an indication of what we would likely get it's like six round 16th round copper gutters with a you know copper leader going down and then there were going to be I was planning on putting railroad ties um along the sidewalk of Claremont because there's a lot of overgrowth and um my neighbor on the corner of Upper Mountain and uh Claremont has them I was actually out there to maybe four Sundays ago with somebody and we were kind of cutting along the whole strip and realized that it's just going to continue to erode um and so I was hoping to be able to put some type of retaining you know railroad ties two or three stacked to kind of keep back all that dirt and my my neighbor has it so I was like oh maybe I should just continue it down um I think the issue is it has to be on your property line if it's on this if it's so this is the side sidewalk and this is Claremont I was going to put it on the edge of the sidewalk that's not that's that's in the right away okay that's not your property where would I put it that on your property you'd have to move it fast a survey yeah I think that's something that you need to have plans and you have to have a I was just going to okay contractor or an engineer kind of draw it up so um so so we're actually just yeah the problem is prove that because it's not on your property right is the neighbors is The Neighbors on the on the sidew like that's your neighbor the picture right here yeah yeah I just going to continue straight I don't know I thought yeah that in looking at my survey which I have here uh it did appear to me that it would be on the property line um yeah the the the sidewalk is never on the property line there's always a space and even according to your survey it's not dimensioned okay so I don't know what the dimension is from the edge of the sidewalk to your property line so I'd have to measure that get that measured yeah that's probably we can't we can't approve you to put put something in in property you don't own so oh of course of course but I guess in concept is the are the railroad ties if I were to put it on my property line could I adjust the application that's for that sure you know would you'd have to still come before forced to well I think he's here for you tonight right right I mean Oh I thought you were just trying I'm not going to try and put property you real ties were you'd accept a condition that we would approve it based on his on property yeah I don't think we want to bring him back no no so so I if he's putting retain building permits no because it's not if it's on the property line and it's not structural and it doesn't require um only if it we be a certain height will it require a building permit okay so yeah I don't think we we want to get inv okay involved with maintain managing that so the gutters and the railroad ties is that number eight and nine I think so yeah okay so this is a lot I mean I think that when we look at applications we look at things that come in organized and um you know uh usually with like cohesive plan so can see it together I understand that seeing the other two presentations um mine is probably a little lacking in organization um you know we're Jessica and I were private homeowners I'm not a land use attorney um I tried to put together as much as I could and you know Janice was really helpful in explaining to me what I should provide um a lot of these also came up as we're just walking around our house you know I noticed that it's raining and it's raining on my head because we use that kitchen door as our main entrance and um I'm like oh it' be nice to have a gutter here and this was after we submitted the application um one thing oh there's another uh request too I think um which is yeah so we had our um electric upgraded to 400 amp which requires a much bigger pipe coming up from the house oh the Pole right yeah and pscg had to install a pole on the property um right next to Claremont and it didn't I didn't even dawn on me I had to get it approved and then you know I'm thinking about all the applications I'm like wait a second I'm sticking a pole on my property probably should get this approved and I changed the pipe that comes out of the uh out of the um out of the house the electric service you mean the electric service right cuz it's no longer like a 3-in pipe for 400 you have to have like a 7in pipe and it goes up and the the thing that comes out is a much bigger it's the bigger yeah it's like a it's looks like a I don't know four like thing stick I don't know what it is but so if you approve it tonight we'd like to have all these items you know listed in your approval or at least address we need to figure out how what they are so there's 10 there's 10 then yeah I I have a question on the gutters you the email says um just over the kitchen area where is that located on so I notic is it is that the rear of the structure the side I I looked through the application today as I was trying to get out of work and I noticed that this picture hadn't been included um and so it's basically above like above the kitchen there's a I don't know what you call it but it's like a sloped roof and we were planning on putting it here sort of like where the beige part is under the cedar shake and then we run the leader on the left hand side so if I'm looking at the survey it's on the the rear of the property yes okay it's like there almost like it's an addition that juts out that's the this was an addition this was like not part of the M house this was where the kitchen and the servants quarters were gotcha to the house it's a different look it's Cedar shape whereas the rest of the so that's fronting it fronts Claremont front Claremont okay correct so it's more it's the side okay so why don't we go back to the stairs we have so I want you get this straight stairs what's number two retaining wall yes retaining wall I don't know if I would call it a retaining wall I mean maybe it is maybe it isn't the ground there is already starting a road for whatever reason it's like a little cutout in the driveway where I guess somebody could like it's a oneway driveway and so you can kind of move to the side when somebody's if you happen to have two cars going but you're you're trying to yeah you're holding dirt back I am holding dirt back it's at like a 45ish degree angle so we were just planning on like cutting it back and putting just laying down Stones we weren't actually going to put cement or anything um and I guess if you wanted a footing you'd probably put like a 2 3 in stone footing um but it's not like it's straight up right you're kind of laying it down to try and prevent more erosion in that area that's what and I'm not a what height are you thinking like it's like a cutout it's almost look like this circle right here and it's at a 45° angle but you can see the grass is already starting a road for whatever reason I just meant um I just meant U before we get into details why don't we just do the listing St number one retaining wall number two number three the perola perola yeah number four the blue stone walkway BL St walkway and that's the one from um the corner of Upper Mountain uh corner of North Mountain and from the corner from the stairs that that you recemented correct number five um the uh um the Bel block apron at the at the bottom of the driveway okay to make it look a little fancier and then number six uh the uh uh belgi Belgium Block curving that must be around the parking lot your parking area right correct it's well the what you can see is um a walkway from the steps on Claremont going from Claremont okay and number seven uh the uh gutters I believe railro I thought that was eight I think seven would be the uh railroad ties CU I came in first okay the railroad ties okay and then number eight is the gutters and leaders Y and then I guess nine would be the poll so there's nine nine things yes ma' okay so why don't we start with the stairs which are already uh installed and um there was a question question when you were here last time whether it needed railings um and then I I I'm sorry I don't have my notes with me but I you wrote that your your architect said the architect said that the railings are not should not be required I mean if they are required I know I think it's a it's a building thing um I the building building constructional he said RA are required and a building requ yeah we understand the second part and you know one of the reasons why I was hoping to be h ton night is my contractor's at demanding last payment he actually called me last night and I want to be able to tell him uh I can't give you last payment cuz you got you know excuse me uh you need to I was I was going to you know have it exped um you know I'm going to tell him you should have got a permit you know U it's his responsibility to but we can't we can't approve that until we we see what what you're actually planning to well what there's an issue with the stairs which it's already built so right no but the the St what Happ come back for the railing come back for the railing all right well the railing would look I mean there's uh one railing right now on the stairs to Claremont and it's a very simple metal single pole railing we would we would mimic that because that's what's on the property and I'm trying to see if I have a picture of it um if it's required I was told the architect said that because it's a slope and because it's not like you when you if you were to fall the side you're falling on it's like you're not falling anywhere right you're falling on land it's not like there's you need to you need a you need a railing so it doesn't matter have to put in a railing I'm happy to put in a railing okay I think the issue is the stairs what what which which you need a c of a that you're coming here to request that you've already put in I'm sorry say again that you've already installed they're already in there they're already there so we have the issue of of uh yes can I make a suggestion yes there's so many different items here yes I I can probably respond to maybe the gutter because I can see it and I can see what the railroad ties are all about everything else is not clear and I wouldn't even be able to I would not even be able to come I I appreciate that so I almost think like this is better handled on site yeah with maybe the uh I don't know one of the Committees back to the minor application where this started right right was that where it started started at the minor application I think it's better to do this on site and I I unless unless you can provide a narrative and pictures pictures drawings that we can respond to and say you know I can imagine all sorts of things when you say tubular I don't know what it is I have a picture of theing that's on Claremont it's a simple then it needs to be somehow written in a narrative we're going to right CU we have to know how submit that as an exhibit and say that the railing will match this but it's not an approve approve it what do you mean if he submits that we don't know what it's going to look like he's representing we don't know where how how is it going to be attached to the stair we don't know where it starts we don't know where it stops we don't know where it's attached can I ask is you know the stairs are probably 200 ft from the road um does it matter to the commission that that amount of details cannot be seen from the public right away like if you have it can be seen but from the public right away I mean if you have binoculars right my point is like you know it's a 2in tubular like the one on Claremont you can see because if you're on the sidewalk you're looking at it um we we're going to we're going to match it to that um I don't know if you understand my question no you're saying you can't see it so why are you bother it's not that you can't see it you can't see that much of the detail so I'm just curious whether or not that's I don't even know what detail you're talking about so forget about seeing it I think we first need to understand what it is maybe it's okay I'm just making how do we get to the next step here do we can we just refer it back to uh yes and but if it's referred back to minor applications we we even if we go look at it if we go on site we need more detail we need to know where it's going to be you know where the railing is going to be what it's going to look like look I'm happy to come back um I'm half asleep and right we all okay we're trying to do it so you don't have to come back here yeah that's minor applications they meet when the's available when you're available can property okay walk around sheets I I know you provided some but if you have a your architect draw up details of the railing right to show us what the railing will look like you want to know the location of what the butters oh we got that the you're suggesting Stone retaining wall show us some yeah show us what type of stone where Stones there I think that's the what are what are we doing you know um what do you need the most right away I'm just trying to um figure out it is dry laid stone wall show show the commission I think you said you have the stones on the property you're going to St if we don't have the stones on the property we're going to find Stones The Stone that's all yeah that's all saying going to be a formal raining seems to me from what youed that it's drye but the when you described it when the last time I think Mr Rooney brought up the fact that if you pile up Stones against a uh dirt it's just going to fall over you need some type so we need to see what it is that you're exactly proposing that it wouldn't it would it's not a wall are you ly it flat is it is it is it like an extension of the road almost like cuz it's lying flat is that what it is but it's lying it's lying flat on the it's not like you're stacking The Rock on top of each other is that what we're saying no no it's not stacking on top no see this is why we need to have we got go we got go honestly we could it's midnight and we really need to I I think I think M prefer to T's uh come back actually to this meeting and have it and and and discuss it here okay um all right we thought it would be you would find it more comfortable to go I think if you come back with each item detailed and an exhibit for each one what exactly you're proposing then we can respond to want to keep it here okay no it's up to the applicant the applicant wants to keep it here is the 18th right yes which is January honestly don't know what I want clearly I I would advise you to have us come and just solve it on site solve it on S we're here to help you you know so instead of for you you know we see what's going on well the reason why I'm I'm hesitant for that is because the the commission's you know jurisdiction is you know is from is what the public can see yeah you're ask to site onto the property which is not something I'm not my wife is also you know I always check with her so to say that I wanted to go to minor applications committee and invite you on to our property I'm not sure that that's something that we would be willing to do okay that's fine and with all due respect look I'm a private we're private citizens we're private people we we're family and you know we're just trying to improve our home and I did and I know it's late and I did want to kind of just show you guys just remind you guys what the house looked like right when we bought it and I'm sure sure you guys remember what the corner looked like I mean my kids are sometimes teased that you know they live in the haunted house of Monclair um and we like we we're going to try and uh you know put some nice Halloween decorations and and make it you know that that haunted house but um so Mr ly you'll come oh sorry sign sign sign this the signature states that by signing this application the owner hereby grants authorization to the MERS professional and St support staff to enter the property in question just okay make sure you're aware I not aware was not aware that that's that you signed it okay so why don't you make go home and speak to your wife and make a decision and then and then and then um contact Janice and we'll go from either January 18th February or it's going to be cold and out now and freezing you won't be able to do anything anyway so uh why don't you do that and then decide whether you wanted uh what's good for you and your family okay okay well look I hope you guys don't think I'm being disrespectful of the commission's you know work I I think you guys can see that we've tried our best to save this house um and um you know but I hope that you can respect our you know desires for our own house um to the extent that it it does fit what's our architecturally appropriate which we think we have done um so thank you for your time okay thank you bye okay that's it okay so um what's close yes without further Ado I have a motion to motion motion toour yeah second all in favor see you next it's Tom and Margaret's Lon