##VIDEO ID:5uSJ1aYpxLU## didn't me to waiting to yeah hard do it up here for I all right good evening everyone um this is a regular meeting of the zoning Board of adjustment for Wednesday September 18th 2024 notice has been given in accordance with the open public meetings act by posting a copy of the notice on the first floor of the municipal building and sending a copy to the Mont clear times Star Ledger and Herald use this is a public Hearing in which any members of the public are welcome to attend the meeting agenda is available on the mro website as as a link to the Township's YouTube channel where the hearing can be viewed live or after the fact the hearing is also being televised on Channel 34 and we have a a change to the agenda to announce today um application number 2889 for 204 clont Avenue mock there Dental Spa LLC has been uh postponed to October 16 2024 and I will call the role um chair Harrison here Vice chair Mulla here Mr Coffield here Mr church here M Harris is not present um Mr Moore is not present Mr Simon is not present Mr via is not present Miss Grant currently here um Mr just all I'm here what about 50 Gordon Hurst are we going to carry that it's it's listed on the agenda so they they have to re notice correct so they didn't complete their notice in time so U we removed it from the agenda so I'm the one that I'm looking at that's right apologies Mr they did the mail notice completed that but the newspaper notice was published to late yeah so we're only going to make them redo the newspaper notice correct yeah okay so so what what hearing date did we give them we had initially given them for today and then now they're on for December 4th okay so if anybody's present for that and got the newspaper and got the 200 foot notice that's now on for December 4th 7:30 p.m. other than the newspaper notice there will not be any further mail notice of that after application and that's application 2898 for 50 Gordon HST Avenue um and then just to be clear on the 204 Claremont Avenue there will not be any further notice for that hearing as well we have the minutes of the September 4th meeting I just have a couple of changes on page two um um this is I actually mulle on the minutes and the mountains side Park Terrace resolution and the Tattoo Studio I think some members had to abstain because they were not present for the application or the you know we're not present at that the prior meeting the August 21st meeting so if we could just um correct that BAS on who was ineligible to vote and then on page three decid that was okay on line 96 at the bottom replace the beginning of that sentence to read questions were raised as to whether and then continuing the seven Town Homes would only generate three pewer trips anyone else with any changes to those minutes if not someone want to move approval I'll move approval of the minutes those changes those changes is there a second second all in favor say I I exensions we have the resolution for the Laural Place property um I don't have any changes to that resolution does anyone else have any changes if not someone want to make a motion I'll make the motion Mr chairman second all in favor say I I I any extensions any oppos um then we have the request for an extension for the property at one carollyn road uh this was a variance I guess we granted two years ago for an addition to the house that at the corner of BR Carolyn um I don't think there's any reason not to Grant it it's nothing changed and unless there's any discussion someone want to what's the the extension is still when yeah the extension is till it should be to June 1st 2025 yes I'll make the motion to Grant the extension second all in favor say I I and we oppose the extensions the next and only application is that of Vic and Property Management LLC finding s property at 61 Mission Street um this is an application for variances perit construction of an accessory building in the rear of a lot containing two garage parking spaces on the ground floor and an accessory dwelling unit on the second floor a rear addition to the existing two family dwelling and its converion to a single family dwelling property is located in R22 family Zone and variances are requested from on road Section 3 4784 and MCO code section 34752 to allow an accessory Building height of 24 ft 10 in where a maximum of 15 ft is permitted from mon c section 34784 mon Road section 34722 F to allow accessory building width of 25 F 6 in a length of 27 F 6 in for a maximum width and length of 24 ft is permitted and from Mar our code section 34789 to permit because the proposed Abu would not comply with the New Jersey Barrier free sub code and Mark code section 34720 B1 because Ino coverage of 70% is proposed and a maximum lot coverage of 55% is permitted are taxes paid Mr notice in order yes Mr Ruben want to proceed good evening Mr chairman members of the board my name is Michael Ruben represent uh V and Mena Property Management LLC as applicant and owner of property located at 61 Mission Street block 311 block 18 um just as a note um the application was incorrectly identifies uh vam Mina Property Management as the applicant only rather than both the applicant and owner they are both it is both um I won't go over I think the introduction was explains what's going on but I just want to speak briefly about the variances if I might the project was designed to form to the extent practical with the two with the February 2023 zoning ordinance Amendment which created development standards governing the construction of accessory dwelling units in the RO Roa R1 and R2 zones the regulatory scheme was codified section 3478 of the zone zoning ordinance and it designated adus as permitted accessory uses in those zones the ad Adu regulation set forth 13 standards govering the construction of Abus Abus and the proposed development complies with all but two Section 8 D4 requires Abus to meet requirements for accessory buildings set forth in Section 3 47-22 of the Ordinance one of those standards in section 22f requires accessory buildings to be limited to a footprint of 24 ft by 24 ft for a total of 576 Square ft the proposed two-story accessory building with garage on the ground floor and living space one bedroom apartment on the second floor has a footprint of 25.5 ft by 27.5 ft or 657 Square ft so a variance for the size of the accessory building is required however the Adu standards in section 347-3800 Square fet so there's an inconsistency between the two statutory schemes or ordinance schemes regulatory schemes you have accessory buildings that are limited to 576 ft but adus which is Orin are seeking approval under permit 800t buildings Additionally the R2 Zone incorporates the 15t height limitation established by the R1 Zone in section 34746 A1 the Adu standards include no height limitations but does require one parking space they don't say whether that parking space should garaged or not it just simply requires one onsite parking space however the obviously the 15 story height limitation would permit only a one story building and there's nothing in the Adu that restricts height in any way either permitting or not permitting uh over garages um at least as to accessory buildings or detached buildings which this will be but we do need a height variance because the height of the uh twostory building will be 252 ft as opposed to the 15 ft normally committed for accessory another C variance may be required because as designed at least in plans before you uh it will not the the ab unit will not be barrier free however the architect will speak to that and how it is adaptable to that and I'll be back to him that's not my expertise finally uh there's a variance required for lock coverage of 70% with 55% permitted but impervious coverage will be reduced uh through the reduction of a large parking area that is a large paved area that's currently in the rear yard and reducing the driveway to a to a more normal and uh usable width unless the board has any questions I have two witnesses first is one of the two members of the applicant his name is Victor Lana and then my second witness who is both an architect and professional planner is Frank M and I intend to call Mr first questions proceed all while you're getting your witness ready M kmby would you raise your right hand do you swear to tell the truth in the matter pending before the board I do state your name and your position with the township of cos assistant your witness is where right here no we'll do one at a time time would you raise your right hand do you swear to tell the truth in the matter pending before the board yes state your name and address 79 can you spell your first and last name please that's okay that's my I called you by your email yeah I see sorry I've only known him by that name I think my retainer mid I see I can you can you repeat your last name again then cir ciran what is your relationship to the African sorry what is your relationship to the applican own are you a member of the LLC yes me and my wife own the LLC okay and the LLC is the owner of the property correct correct and when did you buy the property the2 and when you bought the property do you have any relationship to the property in terms of occupying it or or have um knowledge of or a relationship with the owner yes so I am going to I'm living there uh just more space why I'm converting the two into one family from this Livingston that's going to stay on site with us and I uh I just need some to give her some space So currently it's a two it's a two family unit and there's a unit on the ground floor and there's a unit on the second floor correct and uh you live on the second floor no I'm on El Street right now okay you're now on El but did you used to live on the S floor no did you ever live in the building no okay now does anybody are there two tenants currently in the building uh yes okay and is the former owner one of them yes okay and the idea that you have is to is to turn the two family into a one family and build an accessory dwelling unit over the two family over to car garage in the rear correct correct and who will live in that apartment Miss I see and so you've made an arrangements to allow her to continue to live on the property even though you have bought the H the property from her correct yes okay now who's going to live in the house once it's converted to a single family dweller me and my wife and I fours and the reconfiguration or or reconstruction of the interior of the pro of the main dwelling what is going what is going to result from that work that you're going to do will it'll be a kitchen and a living area on the ground floor yes so it's the living area on the ground on the first floor our bedroom's going to be upstairs and weend a currently there's just a one bedroom apartment on the downstairs and a oneair and you're going to convert that into a three-bedroom house with living area on the ground floor and a three bedroom unit on the on a three bedrooms upstairs correct and there'll be one bathroom upstairs correct yes and one of the bedrooms will be a master bedroom correct correct and that will open up onto a balcony which we built over the first floor addition that you propose correct and what is the purpose of the first floor addition the first floor addition is to expand the kitchen is very small have a large family I just more space I have no other questions Mr M to have any questions um yeah um so Mr San right okay um you indicated that um this your intent is then for this to be your primary residence yes okay and um what what's the time frame when do you anticipate being able to to make it your your primary residence well it's been going for some time now so it's it's up to uh uh you know the approval in construction obviously say within a year or so um so um you have the design calls for there's a bedroom in the basement no what is what I see on in the basement I think it's shown on the planet but long ago that should have been changed that was eliminated a long time going our somehow I missed that when it was F okay there was a narrative thing there was a escape window yeah but now it's not that that was originally and I told them I didn't think that was a very good idea and it was supposed to have been changed I missed that before so that could be a condition of approval that be basement in the I mean bedroom in the basement Okay so will will certainly request that um so that the basement will only be used at this point for storage purposes that's the intent yes there are number of procedural requirements de recordings and annual filings you they're all contained in section 3478 and you'll go over those your client you'll comply with those yes and and there's an additional one right the again that requires an affidavit which will also be recorded with as part of resolution compliance that he will live on the property that's correct that he will live on the property I'm not the interpreted person for the ordinance he needs to live in needs to continue to live in the property or else it becomes not eligible that's correct but after you build the accessory dwelling in it then put if the access dwelling unit becomes vacant is he then be is is he then as long as it remains vacant he doesn't have to live the property any he just can't use the accessory dwelling unit you can't it out correct so just a things getting back to the plan now I noticed um that you had chimneys that are being removed I think you going need to talk to the architect about that okay so can I get a clarification on The Residency requirement I understand it to mean that he stays the owner of the property in the principal house has to remain there as long as he has the United I agree with that that's what it says right corre so because there's no limit on it am I correct as far as I can tell no and he can sell as as he sells to someone who's owner occupying the he could sell has be owner occupied has be owner that's conditioned on that's correct the buyer has I think there's even a deed restriction requirement there is that has to be filed so and all that will be done and you know obviously resolution compliance will ensure that all that is is compli with before they get perm okay questions um you you um own property on the one on one of the buildings on the other side of the the property we're talking about 61 what is yes you own two properties or do you own properties on both sides of this Jing or just the one side just the one side just the one side and so in terms of in terms of the parking how do you sort of Invision that being done since you're no longer going to have a lodge of a parking area based on uh the presentation of your application there were a lot of vehicles that were involved in this space you just just speak to that in terms of what your intent intentions are so all the vles that's there they're not there on a daily basis things going on it's only be two most reason for the have a very expensive car that element up and the the driveway is that a shared driveway between the those two properties it is this the driveway only belongs to 611 okay okay thank you Mr Church anything further no I have no further addition um I I have three issues uh I think they're more directly to you than V I'll do the best I can fair enough me too um the 24 by 24 is refer to from the ad refer refer to the district you're in and you go there and you read it right right the code is clear it does say it it's just a little harder to find it's not as obvious as it could be but the code's clear yeah it says yes but there's also a provision of the Adu standards that commits an 800t living unit if you're in the right if you're right if you're in the right zoning district and in that part of the of the code it tells you to check to check with the zoning District when you go to the zoning District it says if you're in you know an R1 R2 you can't have a maximum the length of the Beyond 24 ft in either Direction let me just if I may respond to that c D3 says in no case shall the adu's living area be more than 40% of the primary dwelling unit up to a maximum of 800 square feet nor less than 300 square feet and no more than three rooms excluding kitchen and bathroom the next section four says attached Adu shall comply with the requirements for accessory structures in the appal zone district and the requirements of Monclair code 34722 22f says it can only be 24x 24 so you have four which says it can be 24x 24 but you have three that says it could be 00 Square ft yeah but they're different they're I mean one's a square footage measurement and the other is a is a individual height and length width and length measurements yeah but if I mean if it's on one floor it's going to have a footprint of 800 square fet the the planner's memo indicates that you need the variance from D4 for the width 25.5 ft and length of 27.5 Ft where maximum with a length of 24 per I agree I'm not disputing that we need a variance for that what I'm saying is that I think that there's a somewhat inconsistent provision here that says that the Adu can be 800 square ft which obviously is larger than 24 by 24 and what I'm saying is I agree that it isn't as clearly presented as it could be but it is clearly presented it is when I read it the fact of the fact in this 24 by 24 that's it I disagree with your your your assertion that the code is unclear and not the same okay well never nevertheless the applicant has has requested the variance from that provision right we have it's in our notice we have requested okay we agree I'm saying I it's and then the other thing is the height so that the other issue is the height so you know it's 15 ft that's really clear they what you're supposed to do you're saying well no but how about 24 ft cor right yes and I guess my question to you is is what is the hardship why would we well hold on let's let's not get ahead of ourselves right now we've got the first witness is a fact witness um Mr uh the the appcut attorney Mr Rubin has indicated and identified the variances that are being sought there will be a subsequent witness Mr mlto who Mr Ruben identified who will act as their architect and planner and he'll give the proofs as to why they think they're entitled to the variances so after we hear that witness you can then ask him the questions as to whether thank clarification I didn't know uh that that would apply to loot coverage to correct I have no other question Mr bfield uh no questions I just have I want to understand about the driveway because I've have seen cars parked in the rear of the adjacent house and clearly the only way they can get there is using the driveways but you're saying there's I understand there's no easement allowing that but that's just recently I hasn't been like that those are myice that's ask TVs is that what you're referring to far from the other side I mean seen different things on different in there a couple different days but yeah you own both properties now yes okay so I guess would you have an objection of our requiring you to allow access to the rear of the adjacent property on your driveway that's something I would have to to myne and my wife seeing a permanent easement it's just you know that this is a neighborhood where there is not a lot of parking and you have clearly space in the rear of that yard to provide for parking I me I now if we do agree to do an Ean is that removable you should talk to your attorney about that that's not the easiest question in the world to answer um and I don't want to mislead you as to the likelihood of that or not likelihood of that okay I um let's see how this goes we can let's see how this goes are there any members of the public who have questions for this witness again this is just ask questions of this Witness who is just a fact witness Mr Ruben want to call Mr Poo yes please come up be sworn in thank you you swear to tell the truth in the matter pending before the board so help you got just States your name and address please right MTO m i l e t o 14 Beaver Brook Drive Long Valley New Jersey that's where I live I have a summer home too but depends on the weather Mr Mr mleta will you give the board benefit of your educational and professional backlash I'll do it as quick as I can no there nobody's rushing it I do graduated Clifton High School 1960 I went to New York Institute of Technology in' 64 graduated in 1964 I had a SLE call sabatical the military got a hold of me during Vietnam and I spent some time in the in the military and I'm a veteran of that as terrible War they're all terrible but some are worse than others anyway I made it out of there and then I went and got my license took the exam passed the exam in 60 in 74 and then in 78 I went and took the uh advantage of becoming a professional planner at that time it was for reciprocity all Architects were were accepted as planner because silly not to I mean you can't put pencil to paper until you looked at the ordinances and become almost planner you know you got to become a zoning officer anyway uh then I um was employed self-employed for a while and then I was employed by a company called Prime motorin which is was the second largest hotel company in the country it owned H Johnson's it owned holiday in it was a large company and I was head of the construction Department there um during that after that 10 year I uh Zone officer in the city of clion for about 18 years I became the construction official in city clion and then I became the a city manager when the city manager in Clifton decided to uh retire but not retire he got sick if you get sick on retirement you get the full benefit of your pension if you retire intentionally you in half of your sick time so for two years he got sick and I had to do do that job as well as zoning officer and construction official it was an interesting time I just found one thing was that surround yourself with good honest people it's easy at the top surround yourself with turkeys you got a troubled day terrible so fortunately had F which is a allow the city manager to do all the hiring and firing of police fire city employees he acted as the administrator city mayor and councel in that act were um policy set they said the policy man operations I did that until it became a little political and a little design not hand ulated my politics and uh that that was the end of that career because couldn't do it I could not listen to the mayor and counsel they call themselves The Big Four I'll give you a whole poop on it I'm not sure we need the whole all right I'm not going to get that maybe and then you open your own firm correct yeah and you've been practicing as an architect and well I practiced even before that um since I had my license as a construction official certainly I couldn't do work in Clifton and uh the Department of Community Affairs who set all the rules up at first said you can't work in any place in the state of New Jersey on their their rules and uh I went to the legislature and I said you want to get rid of the best people for the jobs plumbing inspector has to be a licensed plumber he's going to give his license up that's crazy right right focus on your credentials okay well I mean so so I'm just the history of what happened have you appeared before boards in the state of New Jersey architect and a planner yes um and are your licens current yes both licenses in New Jersey and I'm licensed in 28 other states I asked that he accept him thank you enough enough advertising will you retained by the applicant to design addition to this uh to the single to the existing dwelling and to constructing a twostory yes accessory dwelling unit over a garage correct could you please describe the property under its existing conditions currently is an existing two family Dr on the property in the front uh occupied by the owner and uh in the rear is an area that be established an existing for new um accessory building detach accessory building the rear yard is largely paved correct currently Almost 100% paved now in terms of the addition let's focus first on the addition to the to the existing dwelling it's going to be converted from a two family to a one family and how is that going to occur what what changes interior interior changes do you intend to make to have that well first we had to do little expansion on it to satisfy the client because he has a large family and the kitchen was very small so on the first floor we expanded the kitchen and living area on the second floor to add additional bedrooms we added above that two stories the second floor because it has there's no there's no second floor addition is there no no all you're doing is is reconfiguring upstairs correct that's it okay and creating three bedrooms correct correct we now there are only two correct or actually only one a living room a dining room it's a single unit with one bedroom a bathroom a living room a dining room in the kitchen correct yes and you're going to take the kitchen out upstairs and you create three bedrooms and one bathroom correct corre and downstairs is going to be only living area and no bedrooms correct and the basement there'll be no bedrooms in the basement correct okay now the the addition that you're that you're how how large is that addition is it going to what's it going to look like is is it going to match the existing dwelling absolutely you're going to use all the same materials same colors to blend in with the existing building we do that with the accessory building as well and and the addition will have a flat roof as opposed to correct and the purpose of that is so there be a balcony outside the bedroom that faces the rear of the house correct and that is the master bedroom correct and the only way to get to that balcony would be through that bedroom correct and no Stairway to no no Stairway to exterior stairway correct and it'll have Cod required railings around now let's talk about the accessory dra tell tell me how that was designed well of course I had to interview the client SA y his needs and his needs were to um put in a building that had a garage because he does have some valuable cars that he wants to store there and it's safer it's better out of sight and secondly uh he needed the second floor for living space for the for the former owner who currently is on the property correct and in terms of the design is it is it a one room unit yes and has three rooms correct yes as required so it's consistent with the ordinance in in that respect correct y all right and how many square feet is it of usable both floors no just the living the living area 676 I knew that 676 square feet I'm sorry he my associate and there'll be an internal stairway to get to the yes unit through through the garage correct correct and will it be a a what's called a man door to get from outside into the garage in addition to the two garage door code required absolutely and and that mandoor will provide access to the stairwell correct and exterior exterior and the building is set back and the accessory dwelling building will be set back six feet from both side yes lines as required by the so so the deviations with respect to this is the size of it correct explain why you designed it uh why it's not 24x 24 and is is larger than that uh in order to accommodate the client's requirements and with it in terms of the size of the dwelling un um do you think that if you made it smaller would be a suitable dwelling in no why because it has to have a minimum square footage per person but a bedroom has to be 150 square ft right the top then you got to provide closets and cooking area and living area and in order to make it a um suitable dwelling unit that's where I came up with them you designed a lot of Apartments I've designed a lot of hotels and can't be much more than that what I've done meets the need I have no more architecture what I do as you said the exterior of the accessory dwelling unit building the accessory building match yes allend together the same same same window same same roof interior the pitch on the the accessory dwelling un is similar of the roof of the accessory dwelling is similar the pitch on the main I have no other architectural questions for him if we want to pause now yeah it probably makes sense to Mr mull you have any questions about the architectural yes I I do thank you so uh I I'll begin with the with the main with the primary residence the main building right corre so um I'd like to understand some of the rationale uh for this principally looking at the second floor plan um you have the balcony uh which extends over the kitchen which is which is a new extension right correct um and and and the kitchen is 20 ft uh and the balcony is 20 ft but the master bedroom itself is 14t 1 in what what's the rationale for the for the balcony to be so large in comparison to the to the master bedroom or the primary bedroom that was the ises of the client and violate anything so I gave him what he wanted wented the balcony out there where he could um have his family out there and enjoy the outdoors but the only access is through the master bedroom correct but only family members will gr who there not going to invite company U family there he's a Family Guy four girls and one and one son um this this second floor also seems to allow for only one bathroom for the second floor for the master bedroom and two additional bedrooms is there why why not design the space so that there would be more than one bathroom on this floor the client felt that that was adequate for his needs and that's what I I I feel bu his bill I didn't dictate what he should do or not do BU each client has their own wishes and needs and I listen to him and try to produce what he desires can't force myself on and say well I'm not asking you to force yourself on anybody I'm just simply asking right I'm in terms of the design of this space functionality of this space yes of course it's designed for um the the owner um and you know I mean the the zoning board also looks at you know the longevity of the property also which means not only for this client but also someone who might succeed him in the in the property right so so it would be a consideration in terms of the number of bathrooms on the space can you I started to ask the uh the the owner about uh removal of of uh chimneys can you speak to that please they're going to be kept they're going to leave the chimney they going to be maintained and and U certified that they are act and safe so that that's a deviation from the plan cuz the plan the plan indicates that chimneys are going to be removed they're going to be removed that's what it says existing chimies to be removed I my A1 on A1 and looks like it's two that are being change they're not required because the time you know new equipment in the building doesn't require those kinds of changes I apologize for this so they are they are going to be removed be removed yes whatever on this plan is going to be done and so what would be the rationale for the chimneys being removed the reion yeah taking the space in the house not necessary chimneys are kind of oldfashioned for equipment that was oil burning and so on now we have very high efficiency equipment event through a plastic pipe on the sidewall no more ch um then you have the the third the Attic So the attic is is just for storage is that correct yes and and is it possible for that space and there is a stairwell going up there is it possible for that to be converted into living face at some point well the stairway would not comply with the ordinance for Access it's just for storage very Steep and and narrow and narrow so couldn't be for that and C can you uh tell me what would be the height of the ceiling in the in the storage in that se third third level yeah what would be the height of the ceiling they at um four foot yeah side the wall would be 3et or so um at the cable end MH and then it goes up to maybe 5T p in the roof not even you know they're not adaptable for living purpose yeah I just want to make sure that it's it's not enough space there for okay all right U then um if if we can then turn to the accessory unit um so uh the the question was was raised about the dimensions of this Adu and and why based on um your design it could not be smaller could not comply with the 20 24 uh foot requirement um and you you described it as a a unit that had a kitchen space living space bedroom space bath space um it does have two bedrooms um I I just like to hear a little bit more from you in terms of again what your rationale is for why that that variance should be permitted in terms of of this exceeding what you know other dimensions that have been set by the by the township for 80 years well that's there's a discrepancy there that I couldn't quite follow both and that's why we're here to present it to the zoning board that's what zoning boards do they VAR so it's just it's just because you you they're minimum if you look at the dimensions um of the bedroom it's 8 ft and um that's discounting the closet the other one is 9 by8 they're very minimal bedrooms mhm one of the ones for guests I'll call them relatives mhm okay uh there was a question that was raised uh by the planning office about uh uh handicap accessibility uh what's your response to to that if required we will put a chairlift on the stair and the the stairwell that you designed is wide enough that it could accommodate a stairlift 3 fo one wide and you know the chairs fold down right yes comp I'd like to request that the St the um a requirement and then uh this is uh it's a two-car garage and is a is with this Zing for the um would it be fair for us to assume that one garage is for the primary owner and one garage is for the occupant of the Adu or both if requireed yes that's that's a fair assumption that is a fair assumption that is a fair assumption no further questions this Mr Church you have any questions yeah I have one um maybe I I don't see it may not be here but uh is there other uh exit to the Adu other than the front there there ESS windows in the bedrooms as required by the code so that's the second means of eress under build code so in case of fire e window for rescue basically you know firemen have made that trade years ago said no more fire escapes give me an eous window that I can climb into backpack on so barring uh if if a fire ued in that building there would be only one eret or one way out for the it's going to be it has to have complete fire interconnected 110 system smoke and Co te systems fully that requirement so the ordinance says that erress Windows state law state law says okay thank you must have AR window in every bedroom at least one I have no questions Mr G you have any questions we're talking about Windows I'll say this the windows I see look like they're big enough they're wide enough they not Maxum height 44 maximum window maximum height would be 44 in I don't think that's correct I think it's much lower than that's a bit no I'm just kidding the code says 44 which is Maxum I we refer to the code okay yeah we got to comply with building code period okay um so I you know I'm looking for in in each of these issues so the 24 by 24 I mean yeah it's a tyght space but you're very close to complying with it you don't um so I don't you know you're saying that your reason for not complying is it's not big enough but have you're very close why why not comp 24 from that point of view that's that's my one question to you what's a hardship here it doesn't necessarily have to be a hardship to get a variance could be benefits out way the detriments and I suppose Mr mlto is going to get to his planning test he steals my thunder time but at least at least you did testify as to the dimensions and the question is could you make it smaller and the answer is yes right put do sure that's the easy way to answer the question I understand yes okay and then then we're looking forward to your planning testimony to see what the basis for the variance request is right um okay so the is this also relev the planning testimony 15t he like I think it's just going to be the same answer and I think we're now going to wait for Mr MTO to get to his planning testimony yeah okay and then the last one is going to be the lot coverage um reducing it can't get rid of it reducing you could in order to respond to what I understand that your client wants is two dwelling units on the property with garage you could just add onto the main house have two dwelling units and put a garage in the back back and comply with all the code requirements no I haven't studied that I this is what was allowed by the ordinance we followed that I thought it was a great idea for the city of Monclair to do that to make housing available to people that don't need a big house or a big apartment it's a wonderful idea there's a few communities that done it and this is the one of the first the 15t high as you know and that's the he limit was in C as well and that reason it was they didn't want to second foro on no living space up there it wouldn't allow it that was the purpose 15 this allows to live up there provides another dwelling to meet the needs and a wonderful thing to do is allow a homeowner to go from a bigger house that she lives in to L comfortably on the same piece of property in the same neighborhood it's a wonderful thing tenant deserves it she's a wonderful person I better that's why it's a goodin it's the um the height isue the reason why I so Hall is because of the floor parking yeah again it cleans up the property otherwise you're going to be parking on the grade cars are going to be there exposed and it's not just a good thing G but it's encouraged by the the um sight Improvement standards in have parking it pushes me in that direction and it was it was the wishes of the client basically he wanted a garage he has an expensive car he want I don't blame thank you Mr celd have any questions yes um the bump out in the back of that garage why is that what's the thought about that process there oh good tool off the Storage in front of it of the car you know so you can put Comfort can he get two cars in there get two cars in there I'm sorry could he Park two cars in there no back to back you don't think 27 ft no regular space is 9 by8 mhm so most cars are at least 15 ft it does own other vehicles other than cars right that maybe you could fit in there think so okay well there's some Doom buggy or something um on that on that plan that I just showed you there it says the total coverage is 794 square feet is that is that correct is that what you're seeing on that on your plans which plan a02 page uh a A2 the on the um accessory total coverage keep going 654 Square ft yes okay 650 okay um okay 57 yeah um okay um and the whole building itself with the that's what that that that's for the accessory Union corre yeah that's what that okay um okay thank you just make sure I understand what Mr corfield so the total first floor coverage is 794 Square ft and the second the size of the Adu is 657 Square ft is that correct correct um how many parking spaces are provided two and what is the rsis requirement for this it's more than two parking spaces there's two garage parking spaces right then the rsis permits double parking in front of the garage well I'll try my question again how many spaces does the rsis require you could par more than four you par some on the side rsis required for this for the one family house too and for the U the um ad you one 1.8 1.8 need four the the question I have I understand rsis would allow one space behind the other right um but which which of the spaces in the garage would be for the Adu you have um the one side you have a you know it's a straight shot in the other side you kind of have to curve around um um and which of the spaces would be for the Adu they said the I don't know if that's been determined yet well the issue I have in terms of the stack spaces I don't want the stack cards be behind the Adu unit space will be the one straight okay you have to come up so the mic will pick you up yeah it'll be the one straight ahead when you pull in the bark in straight that's for the Adu that's for the want to go on to your okay there there any members of the audience who have questions on the architectural plans yes come forward state your name and address and again this is just ask questions and Sarah Avery so uh the question that I had is first of all you know it was my understanding that in other Wards in M CLA that the Adu could not be on top of the garage is that is that correct well well the zoning isn't by Wards it's by zoning district there are are two zones in several Wards of the town but in general the ab was my understanding based on you know some there there's a distin there's a section that deals with um Carriage Houses and then there's and then there's a SE a new section that was enacted last year that deals with adus and the Adu doesn't talk anything about being on top of or not other than the 15t limitation that is incorporated by reference to section 22 right well I mean I I'll get to the heart of the matter oh you're just going to ask questions now right you're not going to make a statement well the question question is um how many variances are being uh requested guess that's only two than two there are three the height and size of the accessory dwelling unit and he said he's going to comply with barrier fre sub code and then line coverage which is an existing non-conformity that being reduced so the second question is you're saying the chair no not interior you said the stairs were exterior andair and what is the size of the other adus that have been approved by the zening board we have not approved any adus one we we have not had any applications for an Adu prior to this one the new ordinance correct corre as a for adjustment before the zoning board was re question so oh so they've been submitted to the building department review I have no knowledge right it's not our our to know this is that requires a various correct okay thank you okay any other members of the audience with questions for this witness want to proceed with your planning testimony Mr M you can proceed with your planning testimony okay I'm we going to follow um your competent planners report because it makes very clear what site description is property located on the west side of Mission Street between Bloomfield Avenue Avenue the property contains two and a half stor two family dwelling and Par yard each floor contains one bedroom unit driveway extends along the south side and this is a larger parking area in the back that will be reduced fences are we're not requesting any get to the meat of it the master plan list the following objectives quote is right from her report because it's very good following objectives and recommendations to address the lack of affordable and diverse housing types in Monclair Township accessory dwelling units provid proved an alternative single family or single family which comprises a majority of 53% of montclair's housing units that's in the 2020 census second thing is it's a place that encourages care creation of affordable housing units while increasing the total Supply and enables a continuity of diversity of housing types as valued by throughout there existing mixed housing types to fit needs of all household non senior non-f family Senior lowincome People ensures the provisions of affordable housing and expands the supply of housing for senior citizens which is dearly needed zoning standards need you shall be permitted on a lot containing in the r r o and R1 and two zones we are in the zone therefore is a permitted use in that zone the owner will comply with the David on The Residency of the occupant um the requirements are met in Lo Cas of the ad living area be more than 40% of that of the primary ding unit you comply with that um the uh Det hat unit will have requirements of parking the Adu shall comply with existing to zy uniform construction code no choice but to do that requirements are met should be no more than one Adu per lot that's met Adu shall be used only for residential purposes one family will be required and that is will be met um is number nine oh chair yes put chairlift in when required if required okay keep going next page the Adu is attached to to the principle one two respect new construction external will not be faced the same street as the external entrance of to the principal house that's met the minimum rental term 6 months requirement for p will be met at least one f street parking space shall be provided for the Adu be met no window Adu faces another residential property located within 6 ft not applicable the building VAR M Clair code which stablishes Min maximum impervious coverage of 55% the impervious coverage for the proposed project is 70% to impervious of to to uh as to that last issue if you turn to page six of the report and under project description and the second to last B it talks about the reduction in Pur C page six of the report under project description second to last B initial yeah part part of the existing meway and concrete p is supposed to be removed the area removed measures 2,186 Square ft substantial amount do you think that's a substantial amount in the reduction of blck coverage it is still be able to drive into however there's still variance required correct yes and as to lot coverage one of the reasons that there's a lot coverage issue is because is it's a detached garage correct and so you need a driveway to reach an detached garage and that driveway runs nearly the full length of this block the full depth of this been Nar down to the and and if and if there is no garage built then he has an existing condition with a parking lot in the backyard that will have 2,186 ft more of appro surface than what's being proposed by this project right it's a benefit for way outweigh any detriment all right now as to the as to the dimensions of the accessory dwelling unit building the garage and the excessive height and the excessive square footage of the footprint um is it your position that the benefits of building it larger outweigh the detriment absolutely and that's a C2 variance correct correct and for C2 variant you don't need to prove hard hardship correct and tell me why the benefits tell the board why the benefits of allowing a larger accessory building and what might otherwise be permitted by ordinance is better than a small well I don't know who drew the ordinance my opinion is it doesn't allow for a very comfortable dwelling unit following the code precisely my bedrooms if you look at the floor plan and layout of it a minimal 8 by9 a minimal bedroom um closets are required um the bathroom is required a small cooking area kitchen is required um I squeeze it down as much as I could and still try to meet the client's wishes and uh without hurting anyone learned that zoning the purpose of zoning is to make sure that once per person's activity doesn't disrupt the peace and Tranquility of somebody else and this building will not disrupt peace and Qui Tranquility of anybody certainly of not of the uniform neighbors the adjoining neighbors do you see any detriment to the extra square footage of the building given that the um lock coverage is being reduced so substantially it's a trade it's a trade to reduce blot coverage and yes do you see any um detriment to the height given the way the property is currently designed and relation to the buildings behind it are those properties higher than this property absolutely so the fact that that this building will be higher than permitted as the grade goes up in the back the grade goes up and and properties in the street behind or at a higher grade yes than this yes and so that will mate mitigate the height deviation it's going to be compliant with the general area of buildings in in the area if you Google Earth it you'll see that there's higher buildings there's three story houses in the same vicinity there are other garages that have second levels on them probably pre-existing nonconforming there's a we mapped it out on a map the board would like to see it but there's a precedent of buildings in the vicinity where buildings are higher than the 15 and I think the precedent been set it say blend well with the neighborhood and CA no the fact that we don't have neighbors here this is a disruptive thing all the neighbors notified to come and speak their mind if there was any objection to that and they didn't have any questions Mr M you have any questions no no questions at this point Mr Church you have any questions no question Mr G you have any questions no PA field do you have any questions uh yeah I mean you said the residents um might not have any quals with it but do we know if they're all residents or they're all renters that are around there do we know what the population of that we don't right okay renters yeah well we don't we don't but you know renters are not necessarily do show up all the time and you know people are busy and don't show and renders don't get noticed yeah oh okay didn't know that renders don't get notic yeah thank you um so just on the positive negative criteria that you put out there um like you're technically having like a sec another building you know two-story building in the backyard right that it's not adherently disturbing in some sense and some a one story building in the backyard this if this was a one-story building and it was under 800 square ft it would be permissible but then you have the 15t height there that's right then you have then you have the 15 Mr mlto answered the question Mr Ruben when you get to your summation you can AR I apologize I have no objection to two family twostory buildings my home in Long Valley has twostory accessory buildings three of them how big is a lot eight Acres me my question to you is this is the um I I think that what's in here is that there's a 15t height discreption it's in in this code here right so for some reason I feel like that 15t height is the reason why it's in here is because I think when they put together the adus they were just thinking of just a building for no parking no parking you can't I don't know if you can grab both I mean we're in this situation we're trying to grab both and you know you know I think when you when you look to design this with the accessory unit the reason why we're having such a big thing about the 24 ft being wider I just think you took the 6ot 6 foot and then that's how the width of the building was in some sense in that way so I just I don't know you know this is our first case um coming through here we have to yeah we have to be we have to I mean it's going to be a lot coming down the Pik we' got a lot of a lot of issues that need to be answered and uh did our best do a nice building that's that's all I can tell you okay as the bottom line satisfy the client build a reasonable unit it's not unreasonable the 15t height as I told you in a lot of ordinances that don't allow second floor you don't want living space on them in the old days some of the towns more Progressive like my opinion Monclair this is a great thing I would love to see more towns have this um it's an accommodation for seniors and uh it's a wonderful ordinance it needs some brushing but it's still it's still a good idea I agree with you that's my I agree with you too thanks your CH I just you basically followed the planner's report on this and you know and including language indicating adus are an alternative to single family homes but here we're taking an existing two family making it into a single family and putting the second unit out back and I I guess why you know given what the master plan says why is it better to take a two family into a one family and do the Adu you're you're not adding a dwelling unit which is what I think the Adu ordinance envisioned the two units that exist in the house now are minimal to they're one-bedroom units the owner of the property purchased it to and one family for his family larger family than would be one two bedroom one-bedroom homes I agree the count of uh dwelling units is reduced by converting that but it's a my opinion when you have an owner occupied building it's the best use you can have two families always involve a tenant and sometimes the tenant's problems um in this case it's the owner occupant it's a good thing I might experience as a zoning officer not only a planner but as a zoning officer one family dwellings are very desirable having town to accommodate families but you're taking what is the size of the existing dwelling unit on the second floor of the existing house square footage square footage second floor area is existing 76 776 Square ft and right 760 squ what's the number I heard two different numbers one number tell me what the one number is 767 776 776 thank you second oh that's the 8 yeah we talking about the main building need it rectangle that we designed work without it to store equipment like blowers things that are necessary for the landlord putting that bump out behind the car for the Adu unit it does I'm sorry you just the applicant testified that the Adu parking space is going to be in front of where that bump out is is there a potential for conflict in terms of they're pulling in too far how how is that space going to be delineated it's just going to be used for the purposes needed to be used for that's no reason that it's an AO unit parking spot it doesn't take way of parking it just provides a space for the landlord cuz he's going to have that ability to go in there it's not going to be a lock garage to use it for storage because of the Triangular shape of the back of the L made to bup it out do you think in general that having twostory buildings accessory buildings keeping the setback the Lesser setbacks or accessory structures is an acceptable planning result that's what your ordinance is that's what your master doesn't talk about two story building he's asking is a two story building the re of a lot like this acceptable given the height that's a the ordinance doesn't permit it only permits 15 correct so he's asking going higher is that a good planning alternative and walk yeah and because it provides Dr garage parking that's a better alternative than parking on the S it's just take a look at the lot behind us and see why you don't want on-site parking necessarily it's it's a a Miss back there put the cars in the garage keep them good they're valuable today hard buy a house for used to be able to buy a house for hard are there members of the audience who have questions for this witness exair the audience have as soon as we determine whether there are any members who have questions is Avery no questions or yeah I I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that it's a benefit to allow a larger building than the code permits because the benefits outweigh any detriment there's no detriment to this building it doesn't hurt anybody the height but the the town the zoning code is written in order that the town has a certain type of appearance and so when you have a building that doesn't the height restriction then it doesn't conform with any other building in town right because that's not true then what buildings in town there are many there are many two in this city and they were there prior to the ordinances and uh I can't say which ones they are how many there are but you did take a look at it on goog Earth and you'll see in that neighborhood in particular there's a lot of two story it would be helpful to know exactly which properties in that neighborhood have a TW story garage my question how manyer in that neighborhood twar okay any other questions from members of the audience are there any members of the audience who have any comments testimony statements concerning the application Mr Scotts come forward and be torn in Mr Scott would you raise your right hand do you swear to tell the truth of the mattering before the board yes I do state your name and address uh William Scott my address is 23 Cedar Avenue CL and I also own little proper at 382 Orange Road in there as well okay I'm also a member of the monare housing commission and I'm also a member of the of the chair of the monare end BP housing committee uh the M Housing Commission uh had worked on the ad ordinance for over 10 years uh the last version of the ad2 went beyond and added some additional options to build over garages some other options on the table uh living at 23 Cedar Avenue uh my neighbor uh built an Adu over top of a two-car garage uh and that's within the four qus in the neighborhood I know of other U twocc car garages in the uh in the vicinity they probably could have the opportunity to be converted to an Adu I know the family the families wellestablished family in the township they've been in the township a number of years to send their children to the public Public School System the upright citizens of the neighborhood I know the tenant that's going to benefit from the Adu if this opportunity is approved it's a hardworking neighborhood this Adu would add to the character of the neighborhood and I think that's something that's very important in the township more clear you talk about the character of the neighborhood but we also need to talk about the character of the people that are trying to stay in the community and uh Adu it it might be a little bit larger but I think uh the number of adus that have come before the board of adjustment this may be the first one but I've seen a number of them go before the board of the planning board and there has been some adjustments uh of course but I I think uh from an opportunity standpoint and the amount of development that has taken place on that particular Street and even behind that street this is a very very modest U uh build and opportunity to add convert a one family a two family house to a one family house which is really a benefit to the family because they don't want to move they're going to provide additional space for their their family and the Adu provides additional options to support the income and pay for the the new building so uh I think it's a great opportunity I come from a family of 11 children we lived in a two-bedroom apartment matter of fact it was a two-bedroom we took the living room we made it into a bedroom so we had a three-bedroom apartment we had one bathroom Okay um I don't think there were too many fights over the one bathroom because you know everyone was kind of healthy clean and we went to school we took care of each other yes it's it would be nice if there were multiple bathrooms or things of that nature but this is a very very well planned very tight I'm not talking about big bedrooms and and things of that nature this is a minimal uh devel vment converting a two family house to a one family house and adding an Adu over top of the garage I couldn't think of a better situation for uh the family uh the possible tenant that's going to live in the 8 and it sends a message to the community and also the township of more Clair that we are serious about building adus in the township it's going to be very tight some of the neighborhoods are smaller property some of them are very large I think the gentleman said he has 380 us 8 Acres well if we don't have 8 Acres if we had that amount of room'd be building uh that's the equivalent of blackan plaz matter of fact so you know I think it's a great opportunity um uh I would really like to see this move forward and again I I know that the Housing Commission has worked very hard uh with the uh planner Janet T to come up with an Adu ordinance that is beneficial across the board there's some tightening and some changes that that need to be made because I would think over the last 10 years it may have only been a dozen or less than a dozen adus granted in the township of Monclair and and I think uh that speaks to we probably need to make some changes to provide a better opportunity across the board for other families that would like to stay in town and take advantage of an a configuration any other members of the public with comments on the application yes would you raise your right hand do you swear to tell the truth in the matter pending before the board yes St your name again sarahy all Witnesses must be sworn under the municipal langage law I did we did all right I guess I pay attention so one of one of the comments is that you know there's no one here from the neighborhood tonight and then the other comment was renters don't get notice and boy we really see that when we look at the 17 uh applications that came before this soning board uh in this particular neighborhood uh Mission New Washington U wheeler there were 17 applications and between those 17 applications there were 57 variances granted and none of those 17 properties are affordable for anybody who used to live in that neighborhood and even people who live in other areas of the South End myself included no one who lived in town grew up in town has family in town could live in any of those uh well they're actually 18 different properties covered by those 17 applications and so the question is you know I don't mean to be disparaging at all about your plan thank uh but my concern is that this particular neighborhood uh has been you know picked over you know it's been picked over and all the you know the the old neighborhood is gone essentially uh you have properties here which range the monthly rents range from $3,850 per unit to $6,100 per month per unit and affordability you know the Benchmark for affordability is that your rent should not exceed 30% of your income so in order to live for example at 79 Mission Street you would have to have income of $198,000 per year to live on Washington Street you'd have to have income from $198,000 a year to $240,000 per year now there's a 6971 Mission Street which is two uh two two buildings one is two units maybe the other is two units as well but one person bought the two units I guess um combined 69 71 mission sold for over $2.6 million so granting bulk and setback Varan cities have actually IR irrevocably uh changed the character of these neighborhoods Mission New Washington wheeling and the adjacent streets and I also would like to point out for the record that at those 17 application hearings there was no public comment whatsoever and that is why I am here tonight to speak to the residents of that neighborhood Mr Ruben as you notice we are only five we thought beginning of the day we were going to be seven but we didn't quite make it to seven here so what you want to do I want to speak to my client okay let you do that thank you a couple minutes yes all right we get back thing it's not easy turning off the yeah I just want ask you something more information be careful you're still microphone still on microphone the microphon on did get your email oh good yeah I'm sorry next time I'll put my last name in Big Lip it's just they L out sometimes just like if I get in one after that like I'll check next time before I call I did go back and check sometimes I think I've you know and I so often like every two weeks I'm like are you guys coming you finding are you finding this interesting I mean this job learning a lot stayed for a long time yeah we hope you must be it's been our experience after uh we drag the secretary through two or three unnecessarily elongated meetings of which sometimes I'm also responsible for them but uh then they they run away a lot of names of like oh this person was here they're all nice people too they're all nice people they all had different excuses to they're getting married they having a baby they were having a they came up with very clever excuses for why they needed to get out of town I mean I think we're taking a short break are we still on finally was able to join I mean i'r much longer sure awesome said we anything for Mr Mo what we anything for Mr Mo okay sorry I don't sorry huh seems to Res oh they just disappear no they just disappear that's all think about doing my own situation and I do find are you still practicing yeah I doing just wait till we get to know we're back on the back on yes Mr chair I'm just wondering if we could hear from Miss casmy as to the planner's comments before the hearing closes do you normally do that or you because she was sworn in and that's the only reason I that's only if if uh there was a board member asked her a question otherwise you rely on the port okay all right thank you I didn't I didn't know some some different towns do different ways um I think that we're going to um request an adjournment based upon the comments that we've heard from the board um and have the opportunity perhaps to have seven voting members here and to go back and reflect upon those comments and see whether there's any um reasonable changes that can be made to the design that might uh at least mitigate to some extent the comments okay so for members of the public this is being carried to the October 17th meeting I know that's very very it that's a very popular meeting date is it turns out the 16th right 16th yes the 16th um the uh there will be no further notice um we will alert you that there will be seven eligible members at that meeting and if not we will carry it to it'll end up being carried till December I mean I don't have obviously much testimony left I'm going to do some redirect planner that's really been to the extent of unless we come back with the revised plan and that's that's what we need to deter right if you you know if you could let um I planning office know so we can figure out it's a very popular meeting date due to people who should have been on tonight not being on tonight um for the viewers and to some extent you will benefit by your being here but there are some realities of that meeting we had one we had another major application that was carried um that will definitely take a lot of time as I suspect they have totally redone their plans I may be wrong but I knowing the attorney and everyone else involved I'd be very surprised if they didn't basically be starting a new um okay so this is being carried until October 17th 16 16th mental block um the um there'll be no further notice um the agenda will be posted roughly a week in advance so you'll know where it is on the agenda um and we should know by then whether we have seven voting members anyway right on that agenda and if it's not we will carry it and announce the date at that hearing for the members of the public who are here one of whom I suspect will be here for one of the other applications on the agenda that night um so and Mr Ruben you'll consent to an extension of time for the board to act until that wa constraint thank you Mr chairman thank you for members thank you see you next month I'll seemingly see you next week hopefully quickly but oh I'm going to see you next Thursday Thursday in person no less in person yes can I ask you off the Record where um we're waiting to hear back from Mr gion I'm hoping it is he's hoping it is I'm hoping it's a client problem on both sides Cent Cent problem we have the before board members run away uh we have the annual report I also well I don't want to spend much time in October I do think I would like input for more members of the board um I have a couple of comments um one is thank you than you um on number one where you have a blank and I don't remember um but can you they there would have been an exhibit at that hearing that I'm hoping is in the file that would have marked what the existing uses along the west side of Grove Street is that with this is for the changes right yeah the first change there's a blank in um I I I'll just leave it as I'm hoping there's an exhibit that says you know 3ar of the property were whatever and that would logically lead to how the Zone should be changed um my a number three um I would like to broaden this to include Maple Avenue Folton Miller Harley and Wheeler and have the end instead of with new houses just see how if it should continue to be redeveloped because that's the reality of what we're dealing with and generally not getting new houses but getting expansions of existing and then number 15 which is what we had tonight um I I think this came from the planning office not from us because we hadn't had one of these um I have mixed feelings um the the 800 square ft is a whether you view it as a 20x 40 building or 24x 33 and a third foot building in a particularly the R2 Zone that's a big building a big footprint you know um um that um I don't know I understand the um you know whether the 24t is what makes sense um but I'm not sure where we want to go and just go from an ordinance as says 300 800 to you get to do 800 yes um so last six months ago eight months ago this summer I have an R1 house and I scratch through the permeable pavement issue and I scratched through the requirements of the of the Adu for my own home looked at all the setbacks I designed an 800t unit in the backyard it you know complied in all counts and then I found that 24 by 24 and I redesigned it uh and it's kind of disappointing although it's you know you go from well I think it's 576 ft I can't do math my head back Qui 24 576 yeah uh to 800 sounds like a minor it's not that much but it makes a big difference when you lay it out so when I laid it out you go from a one bedroom to a two bedroom you know you get a 12 by 24 living dining area in the front you get a bedroom in the back with a bathroom and room put a closet it's mechanical space but with the 800 you you can squeeze in two bedrooms back there and um I personally think the 800 is more reasonable it cost a heck of a lot of money to pay somebody back there and start putting in New Foundation to come up from scratch and you know I thought I found the 24x 24 but you're limited to three rooms yeah but they don't count kitchens and things like that or bathrooms so even in you know if I had two bedrooms in a front living dining area with just one big open space I got three rooms while it's and bathroom it's anyway that was just my my perspective obviously I'm a homeowner with with my own selfish intent but um but it didn't you know there's no bulk change there's no I have a garage right there three foot off the property line sure I'd love to be able to put something up on top of that thing that the bulk the bulk impact on my neighbors is you know not insignificant I would I didn't even conceive of that as you know I know you we're not going to discuss that further that seems to be the issue um anyway sorry sorry I brought it up but um anyway but I wanted to share my ception or my experience of having dug into this myself the I don't know I mean and I guess I mean even on this is awkward to discuss because even the 24 ft is before us so um know let's get other input at another meeting does anyone else have any I have one other thing I want to discuss but anyone else have anything else they either want to add or modify or delete of what's here was just a an observation I mean I I I noted that the first comment that you had on on on one but um I just looking at the the summary of applications I was frankly surprised that we've only denied one yeah one of the things I keep saying this every year and it keeps not happening which is frustrating there are number of instances where they come in requesting Four B variances and we approve to deny to and that never shows up in here um and or sometimes it's they withdraw one but they withdrew it because they knew they were going to be Deni and it this creates a an impression that you come in here and you're approved yeah and which is highly misleading um I don't not going to ask you to go back in things you were not here but um going forward if we could in future years note and what was originally proposed and what the revised proposal was and you can indicate something was withdrawn setback was increased or whatever yeah it's it's a um it's you know otherwise you get the impression or here is a rubber stamp yeah yeah which uh would surprise a number of applicants who have been here um so you know we'll try this next time but um you know if if you have comments if you could send them in because we're not going to have a lot of time unless a lot of applicants don't proceed um um but you know the the one on the corner of wheeler in Woodland is not going to be quick and unless that doesn't proceed that's and there will be public there there will be a lot of public um suspect um okay um the one thing that I don't have a full solution for but bothered me starting with the tree clearing on Woodman field but also the house we just did on Mountainside Park Terrace where they cleared virtually everything and then built and we were kind of stuck we were stuck in a lot of ways that I'm still not happy about as to when the infinity pool was the decision to proceed and because they kept saying well we have to do it because this is where we put this door and this is where we put the patio and this is where we put the deck and they dictated um but I I you know the the existing tree removal ordinance does doesn't deal with the situation where the applicant wants to build but he doesn't want to be confronted with some you know whether it's this board or the planning board saying well can you move things over to save these trees you know that kind of approach just well they're gone and I um you know there you know the things I've been thinking of are um if you apply within two two years of a tree removal that um there's a fine for doing that um however you want to do it I there are a couple ways you could do it if another way is to limit the number of trees you know the the ordinance has an exception now for you know sick dying Etc trees uh but I um but it really doesn't otherwise limit you have to plant more trees um but you know in a lot of these instances I think both the outside Park Terrace and Woodman field are examples you you know you have 100y old trees and it's going to take a very long time before you get something equivalent to that um I I will continue to think but I would like to do something because I if I think it's a matter of time before more people planning to do things on their property are going to say um you know I think you know we say well do that I mean we you know we had the you know we have applications where they're trying to save the trees and you know which is probably the more typical but I think there are people who say well they might want to save this tree so I'll cut it down and then I'll build where I want to build um currently also a big topic with historic preservation commission is proposing a shade tree commission suppor I wasn't there an ordinance in town where you take a tree down you put a tree on there but you don't have to there you don't have to do it on your property oh you okay I I think starting off you do I think you can say I don't have room but I but it's it's the I I'll use Mountainside Park Terrace as the example I mean they cleared virtually everything on the lot and they willing to put up the trees but it's not going to replace what's there in terms desty you know it's not providing the root structure for storm water control that would be there it's you know it it's that lot I'm sure they'll plant the right number of trees but that lot is never going to you know 50 years from now before it'll look like what it did before they demolish the house and cleared it um it's a and it's you know avoiding us having a say in something we you know frequently have a say as to can you know we've moved garages or we've let people have a justification variances for garages to not impact tree roots but we've also you know tried to do to minimize impact on tree roots um and if they decide they don't want to deal with that take a little bit I'll cut it down first and apply after two months later and it's gone yeah there was a nice tree there um let me think about that and you you know everyone else should think about it I'd say um you know it is one of the features of the Town having nice tree coverage and um and most residents are sensitive to that but some are not okay um okay motion to adjourn motion second all in favor say I get four weeks off wow like a vacation couple of e