24 um the legal notice required in accordance with the open public meetings act has been satisfied and a statement certifying same will be executed do you all stand for the board pledge allegiance George pled aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with Liberty justice for all did you uh call the RO s here here here here here here here here Mr here Mr PHS here Warner here here s okay uh before we get to the uh the minutes which is number five on the agenda I think we're g to have we've adjusted the agenda a little bit tonight um first of all we you state now that Red Bull will not be presenting anything tonight that will be there's a special meeting on the 22nd uh Mr Warner can fill us in on what's happening there certainly that's my understanding as well Mr chairman I did have an opportunity to review the notice for the Red Bull's application found the content to be sufficient found it to be timely served certified mailed on April 19 and April 26 published on April 25th so both uh were at least 10 days prior to this evening so the board does have jurisdiction to hear and decide the matter and most importantly for this evening has jurisdiction to carry the matter without further notice uh from this evening to as I stand it Wednesday May 22nd a special meeting at 700 p.m at the same Municipal Building correct uh Sonia yes thank so I think we're all set Mr chair okay so again that'll be the 22nd well we'll be hearing the Red Bulls application it won't be tonight uh the second change is we're going to move what's number seven they coming forcer application up first ahead of the uh Leal um application so um we'll start that immediately after we uh look at the minutes have you all a chance to look at the minutes from the last meeting was April 1st uh any comments changes Mr chairman I'd like to make a motion that we accept the minutes as presented is there a second I'll second Mr thank you all in favor I I any oppos okay minutes are approved thank you again Sonia for getting them out that order sure my understanding is okay so can we move on to uh application PB 0124 Sonia want to introduce that the Comm forer yeah okay this is1 forer wer block 8304 30 305 Avenue o by Zone applicant proposes a minor s plan approval to replace the existing standing sign in the front yard area with a larger sign that identifies additional tenants with the street with the street address Mr Warner certainly Mr chairman again with your permission I did have an opportunity to review the notice for that application found the content to be sufficient found it to be timely served and published uh served on April 22nd published April 25 both more than 10 days prior to this evening so with this application as with the last one we spoke of uh the board has jurisdiction hear and decide the application to you Mr okay uh I guess we're ready to proceed Mr R thank you thank you first of all on behalf of the Red Bulls we um we thank the board for accommodating that special meeting um thank you very much um uh on this application my name is Nick r OPI from the law firm of rker danig and I'm here tonight representing the applicant kma Foster this application is a simple application it's simply to replace the existing sign that's there now with a more modern and I think more aesthetically pleasing up to-date uh sign so technically the application seeks a site plan waiver or or if the board does not want to Grant a site plan waiver alternatively we ask for an amended site plan approval to replace the existing freestanding sign located at the property with um with a a more modern and larger freestanding sign the existing sign is 13.5 feet wide by 2.67 feet high um and the proposed sign is 10 foot by 10 feet um it's important to note that the new sign will be in the same place as the existing sign exactly the same place so we're just pulling up one and putting in a new modern sign and the sign complies with all the applicable sign regulations of Morris Township um if the town would like I really have only one witness unless the town has questions because we do have the sign uh person here from the sign company as well as the engineer if they have any questions but I just wanted to have Chris tomasulo from croma forer to talk about why she sees the need for the new sign and why she thinks it's a benefit Chris if you have a minute y chairman with your permission I'll swear that witness in his well as our board professionals yes please do all three of you will raise your right hand do all three of you swear to God or affirm that the testimony if you could just raise your right hand please do all three of you swear to God orir the testimony you're about to give us the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you all yes anyway thank you very much neck Chris hula from croman Forester um as Nick had mentioned but before we get started can you just mention what your title is and generally what your role is at chrom forer oh sure my title is uh assistant vice president with the real estate and facility services um Department I've actually been with chrom forcer for 38 years um my responsibility is maintaining our headquarters um which is now a multi-tenant building we were lucky enough to get tenants during covid um we we adopted a hybrid work schedule um so a lot of chrome enforcers staff went remote um and you know come comes in on a hybrid schedule so we have um leased the second floor of our building to staple Investment Services we leas I'm sorry leas it to who if you can move the mic a little oh yes I don't need that thank you um so we leased the second floor of our facility to steil Investment Services um they moved in in April of this year uh we have intercept Pharmaceuticals on a portion of the first floor and uh we also have private advisor group on a portion of the first floor so under the lease we are obligated to note um our tenants on the monument sign and and uh I'm not going to hold you to this Chris but do you know how long the current sign has been there it's been there a while hasn't it it's been there as long as I can remember I moved to that location um in the mid 90s okay thank you that's all we really have I mean if you want to hear if you have any questions for the engineer about placement but it's on the plans or the details of the signs we do have Daniel farcus from designer sign system he could talk a little bit more about the detail of the signs lighting Etc Mr chairman I have two questions for the signage okay you bring them up okay I have some questions I also have a question I'm sorry I also have a question though for maybe the planner what's the variance how much square footage is this over there is there they're replacing the existing sign which Mr just gave you the dimensions with the sign that's 10t by 10t which is the maximum 100 square feet that's allowed in sub variance free so there's no height which direction on the size height is sign so so so the issue is that this is a different sign than the one that was initially approved way back when but it still meets it's conforming it conform it okay so there is no height issue I don't believe so but I will double check while next witness apprciate did you I have a question for this witness if well we don't C okay real quick so I see that um you have four uh companies on your sign and there's a looks like a blank U spot for an an an additional tenant yes that's that's because our tenants have the right to suas if need B are you expecting to further subdivide the Crum and Forester building uh that would require that this sign be changed at any time in the future not that not that I know of no so there would be that blank space could possibly be filled in but correct but at we have no need sorry Mr chairman yeah Bud's question pops into my head a second question what happens if you get a ten is there any idea on how you would I mean it sounds to me like your leases are set up in such a way that every tenant has Monument identification correct so what happens when you divide a space let's say stiffle s whatever the doesn't a couple years from now they decide to divide in half then we have that then we have that extra space and intercept decides to divide in half crumb's going to take it back and there's uh I'll just say generally in real estate right either the last doesn't get assigned because they're last in line or if they're leasing or subleasing from a current tenant then they would have to Des decide to split that sign yeah I'm just I'm just trying to understand so there a maximum of five names would be on the monument yes it's not uncommon for a panel to be split with two names on it and then it turns into five turns into 10 right so that ability is there for this sign to be split further without change altering the sign in any significant way yeah we'll have to ask the uh sign expert on that I mean I think I think Joe and I are on the same page here what happens if yeah you know in in the year or two there's six seven tenants we're not we're not anticipating any more tenants um they don't get there there's a subtenant they typically don't get assigned on the monument a mon sign is a pretty big deal okay thank you yeah Mr have a question and I guess a comment I don't find this sign more attractive than the current sign I find it significantly less attractive I don't know whether uh other members of the board feel the same way but to me this sign has a has an industrial feel to it it feels like it belongs in in a different kind of Zone than than um where your beautiful building is located I think the the update to the building that was done not too long ago really made it a an extremely attractive building and I don't think this sign really matches the appearance of the building very well that's my own View and I'm probably not famous for my aesthetic taste so Perhaps Perhaps others will disagree um my question is whether you would consider deleting the number on the sign that faces the street so the on the narrowest side of the sign there's a 305 in your diagram that that faces Madison AB and to me that's the most unattractive part of the sign and I wonder if you would just turn that back into a blank like what the current sign has so that's something that I would ask you to consider see what your reaction is Mr chairman yes I have a contrary view I think the sign's very attractive and I will add that uh people driving down Madison Avenue in front of your building have need to have the the uh address identification easily recognizable so uh I I I hear what you're saying about the number being quite large uh that might be what your objection is but um the the color aesthetic and the sign in general I think is um is okay other maybe one of the sign number small that would be one thing but you know otherwise I have no problem with it at least I know it's not very close to the street it's a good 50 feet from the sidewalk it's and there's trees around it's set back but I just want to be clear Mr CL are you saying that you would rather not the one numbers facing the street but the two on the sides are okay are you saying get rid of all numbers uh the one that faces the street is the one that bothers me the most okay I think we could do right yeah that we could do but I I defer to the we'll do what the board suggests either way Mr chairman yes we don't need all three I I do um frequent a lot of the um buildings on Madison Avenue and for me having the sign numbers is very helpful and I don't object to the sign number in more than one place yeah yeah I don't really object to it either because it's kind of tucked in the trees um I think the one facing the street is probably the one that's most visible if you're trying to find out what the address is so I don't have an issue with that I didn't even know straw pole yeah a little straw pole here anybody numbers as they are or you want to remove the the one I think it's fine I think it's fine okay I'm good with it okay I'm fine with it we're okay with it as it is I guess especially at two o'clock in the morning that's right that was that you're taking away my next question for the for the sign person do you want to hear the sign first yes I okay we do I guess yes okay no further questions for Miss thomaso thank you thank you we can open to public questioning after all Witnesses yes in this case I think that's yes thank you and I'll swear you in as well if you'll raise your right hand do you swear to God or affirm testimony about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you would you st your name and address for the record my name is Daniel farcus I'm a partner at designer science systems um we are based in Branchburg New Jersey um have been in operation for approaching 50 years I've been with the firm for about 10 years now um I think instead of hearing direct testimony we'll just open up Mr farcus for any questions the board might have oh chairman my my first question is lighting so you guys all know about my pet peeve about the proident bank I can see it from Florida Florida late at night just trying to get a sense of how bright that sign's going to be at 9:00 2:00 whether it's going to whether this lighting will reduce after a certain amount of hours or whether it's going to stay that bright for so so typically the um the local municipality will determine if we need to shut that off or not uh it can be set up with a timer if that's what you know board sides at 10 p.m. needs to be shut off or or otherwise but um it can be set up with a timer or a dimmer on it if that's what you decide but I think there I think and you correct me if I'm wrong that it doesn't need to shut off because you still want the identification but maybe a dimmer after a certain time I mean I don't know what the board's pleasure is and I don't know what the municipalities rulings are but in my opinion at a certain time of night it would be nice to see it get a little dimmer but the other question is I didn't maybe I just didn't look for it hard enough but was there any lumens on the we candles out would be do we have any idea how bright the sign is no we have we have not provided do we my question for our planner then do we have regulations rules on maybe it's an engineer it may be fair if I may Mr chairman to ask uh and I suspect I know the answer whether it would been any light spillage beyond the property line uh as a result of the sign I not that one can answer that question I I I can't definitively say that but um no I would not imagine that there would be light projecting beyond the property and it is it is set back 50 feet or so close and it's you know it's internally illuminated with with LEDs just that that's what they told us with the Provident Bank signs see from the roof right now so just it's a sensitive area so I apologize not at all should be aware of it I think it's a good point Mr chairman I'm sorry no I just want to piggyback on what my colleague had said because I too and I think the entire board is is concerned about light pollution and and and night sky every municipality should be and I think uh I could try to articulate this um this the sign would be brightest in my in my view at dusk when you have you know a mix of daylight and and Twilight but as the night wears on it if the sign stays that bright it becomes a glare uh not only to en coving drivers but you know light pollution and on on the road itself so um getting back to the the dimming aspect of it there would be a gradual dimming so you know by 11 by 10 11 12 up through you know the um Dawn hours it would be dim and then gradually again um illuminate as the uh as as the dawn comes um to a certain level and this way um it doesn't provide as much light leakage so it does the sign have that capability it it can be added certainly it's not something that was originally designed as part of it um like I said typically it's either on or off uh but didn't like said it's just an an addition to that I think that Joe and I are on the same page with this that it should it should dim as the night grows dark is is the current sign on 24 hours no the lights on sorry what no it turn it shuts off it shuts off uh okay so would there be any issue in running it on the same schedule that that's the current sign is we uh I think I thought I saw it somewhere in the application that that was true but I haven't been able to find it so we're happy to defer to the board I would just say that if there's more tenants some might be there at night so I think the dimmer approach might work a little better so um but we again defer to the board's wishes on that Mr chairman yes what about just like picking midnight and saying at midnight that sign should shut off and I understand where you're saying if if it's 8 o'clock at night nine o'clock at night somebody might getting might be getting guests yeah yeah totally understandable so you'd want the light on at night but I don't think they're working probably at midnight we're we're happy the dimming is satisfies everybody I think I'm fine either way I just don't want to see it at 2 o'cl right I I hear you I'm the same way and it's in obviously we all know the crem forer building you know it's in an area and set back and enough there's some trees around that I don't think a dim sign at that time would create any pollution not at all can we just get an hour when it uh when it Di and then when it goes off if at any point it come pops back on and that's That's So Def the board the a suggestion it dims to 50% at 10:30 at night and stays at 50% through the night and through the night and then at dawn it can go back to uh full full brightness 10:30 to or awful to entirely when there's to light it well no you can light it because it's it it's it's a landmark if it's if it's dimmed at 2 in the morning it's not going to bother anybody but you'll want to see it again at dawn yes you're welcome we're not requiring that the light stay on at night if you want to turn it off that would be fine too for Energy savings you don't need it that'll be subject to the review and approval of our engineer assuming approval a quick question on the sign design and if I understand the the renderings correctly on the new sign post sign it's basically the letters that are illuminated correct the numerals and and the character whereas on the old sign is basically a big white background yes that that hold the okay the old sign is old school right that I don't know what it is feels like looks like plastic but it's it's a big I mean just from the photo it's a big white area that's that's lit and then then so the lettering is darkened in relief okay whereas now the it's the inverse it's only the inverse of that Sor of all uh any other comments questions do we have any well do we have anything from our professionals Jim just follow up to Joe's question the ordinance allows maximum oh okay thank you thank you so does fit that too Mr Phillips is the I know the TCC report ask for sort of material and finish is this like sort of like metal is it metal yes a stencil cut aluminum okay with acrylic characters okay thank you I may look like uh that the evening okay so everything's covered in the planners report Fire official was no question or comment site uh inspection was additional specs on illumination so I believe that's been provided and just uh as I believe the board's aware our current ordinance provision provides for site plan waiver and it might seem a little uh uh cumbersome the way the applicant requested site plan waiver or in the alternative amended site plan approval uh In fairness to the applicant I think that's a good way to go and candidly I would suggest that perhaps it be considered by the board as an amended approval because as you may recall our provision at 57- 96c for site plan waiver uh gives the board the discretion to grant that site plan waiver after hearing sufficient evidence which generally is sufficient evidence for an amended approval anyway in my opinion at least so uh rather than decide okay we've heard everything you don't have to get site plan approval from us it sounds to me as if it might be more appropriate to for the board that's a conclusion uh to Simply Grant amended approval with waivers with waivers requested on the checkl with waivers on the checklist yeah but there's no there's no deviations requested from the from from the app so uh in any event I don't know if that makes it any simpler but I wanted to uh uh help explain why there was an alternative approach requested by the applicant and the board might members might ask themselves well which should we pick and why uh my suggestion would be amended approval amended approval okay any other questions uh then any any questions from from the public for these for these Witnesses I'm seeing none we'll close public comment public comment in general closing all public comment public that was closing the questions portion of it right yes yes um is the next is comment yes okay so now we have you know any any questions or comments by the public no there neither so we'll close the public comment period thank you Mr Lon Mr chairman I'd like to move this along and make a motion that we Grant the applicant amended site plan approval with waivers uh with the caveat that they will either decide to shut the light off at a certain time at night or dim it down to 50% at 10:30 second second multiple seconds call the rooll did you get the second Mr ala yes if order yes Mr nun yes Mr rabbit yes Mercy yes Mr Beno yes Mr qu yes FL yes Mr yes thank you good job you want you want this as an extra map want this as an extra map for the station or something it yeah got an extra one you thr [Music] old Joe we think alike just moving it along love it we got this is like a a meeting of signs tonight sign it's a sign it's a sign from God what are the odds of three of us okay maybe everybody okay moving on to uh PB 823 Sonia could you introduce that for us this is p23 light USC for VAR this is block 40131 191 over Avenue poses installation of additional sign that would include another sign Monument sign and a series of temporary light Po BN Mr Warner certainly Mr chairman uh as you recall the uh we previously Al finded that the notice was sufficient I believe on March 4th originally may have been but it has been carried the matter without further notice since to this evening uh we have amended site plan approval and a couple of Redevelopment agreement deviations with respect to Monument and wall sign and a couple of variances with respect to Temporary signage back to you Mr chairman uh Mr ROP you ready to proceed with this yes yes so again for the record Nick ropi from the law firm of rer Danzig representing the applicant Leal like needle that's with Mr Deo Leal us l C leele is a currently a tenant at Mars Marketplace in September of last year Mars Marketplace received minor subdivision approval to create a separate tax lot for Leal so that it could sell that piece to Leal that minor subdivision has not yet been perfected uh we recently received an extension of the time period to perfect that minor subdivision while we resolved some issues with the building uh Department which are in progress so tonight we are here for approval simply uh to install some additional signage a third wall sign um a third Monument sign and some temporary banners um and you're going to hear from we have three uh folks to testify tonight and you will hear the detail more detail with each uh witness that we'll call First I'm uh if the board has no objection i' call Mr Stephen Deo of leadle he'll explain why uh it's important for Le to have these signs to really help with the success of leele at the center second we'll call Andrew Ali of bowler and he's going to talk about the engineering details a little bit on where the signs are that we're talking about and then finally we'll we'll call Mr Eric Keller of Bowman and he's gonna talk about the specifics of the signs the details of the signs and the variances we are requesting so I just I I point that out so we don't ask the specifics of the signs early to M Mr Deo but we leave that to Mr the engineer and then to Mr Kelly so if there are no objections I'd like to call our first witness Mr de do we want to swear them all in I'm happy to do so Mr chairman as well as our board professionals so if everyone who will be testifying raise their right hand do all of you swear to God or affirm that the testimony you're about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do I do thank you all [Music] so uh Mr Deo would you give the board um your title at uh at Le Your Role generally um and just a brief description of the operations of Le and why you think it's important to have these additional signs of course uh my name is Steven Deo with Leal us um my position is senior construction manager um I also manage the the real estate development um operations in New Jersey Pennsylvania and Delaware um the reason why we're asking for the additional signage uh at this location um as you may or may not know Le is a german-based brand uh we've been operating in Germany for uh almost 50 years um Le is a household name in in Europe and in many areas of the world uh but unfortunately not in this area of the US uh um and you'll notice that on our signs we've had to add food market to clarify to our customers that you know we're not selling cars we're not selling furniture or Electronics we're in the grocery business um so a signage is is really important to us to attract new customers and help um move our expansion up and down the East Coast um without the Food Markets uh signage and the additional signage that we're asking uh it's really affected some of our businesses and this will help attract and attain uh new customers at our at our new store that opened in September of last year I I wanted to make one other point clear because in our initial application we were also seeking a modification of a of a condition about the hours to to have a truck come uh between the prohibited hours the resolution but after speaking to leel and Mr Deo and and some of the uh adjoining residents we decided to withdraw that so it's only about the signs tonight so I open any questions the board have any questions I have a question there are two additional signs requested one is on the face of the store I believe headed um pointed toward I don't have my directions right but pointed toward Martin Luther King Boulevard yes uh into the interior of the mall um and um the other could you explain where the other one is the monument sign yes that'll be the next witness right yeah Will point out he's just talking about the why they're asking for the yeah okay sure so the the the sign facing the balance of the center is is there to draw customers down to our building we're at the endcap uh furthest from the main point of access to the center so that's going to give us good visibility to customers coming in and out the monument is is about 250 ft from the intersection um there is an out parcel between us the Leal building and the intersection so our visibility if you're sitting at the intersection you obviously would see the Taco Bell uh and you would be driving past our store before you noticed it that we were there so with it by adding a sign up on the road the intent is that you'll see us while you're at the intersection and you won't have to do some kind of crazy maneuver to turn around and come back and you can follow the natural flow of traffic there as well okay I'm not sure I completely understand but it sounds like I should ask my questions of of a later witness is that correct yeah thank yes I'm gonna ask the same question because I know Joe's gonna ask about that we asked with from from Forster is about um the signage brightness and and dark sky that we all want trying to preserve especially that area of town where it's already very very well lit I would imagine that um after certain hours that we could dim this the sign a little bit so drivers driving you know in the we hours of the morning or whatnot aren't hit with you know this ultra bright light that are coming from either the sign that's going to be on the um the building you know facing the main part of of the uh of the shopping mall or the one on the road that's going to be that my creat a player to a driver uh you know in the we hours so is that something that uh you know leadle can do the the building sign will be tied into the the BMS our management system so that'll come on and off when the store opens and closes um the sign the same as the the current signs on the building correct right same schedule on and off come on and off correct the the sign out at the street the monument is not internally illuminated it'll be illuminated externally so thus reducing glare and it will like I said come on and off with this with the building signs as well so you've got all the signs kind of coming on and off at the same time so it'll be lit upwards correct into the sky is there anything we can do to light it downward so we don't bleed light into the sky could look into that sure that would be good question yeah Mr just want to confirm so all the signs what you're saying is when the store shuts off at night the signs all shut off at night correct it's actually 30 minutes after we close they're not so like you're closed at 2 o'clock in the morning the signs are not on they closed at 10: so if you're closed at 2 o'clock in the morning the signs are off at 2 o'clock in the morning technically cor that's great just one other question I'm sorry so and I this might not be the white witness but I'll ask the question so currently there's a I'll call it a Shopping Center Monument right and you have a piece of the shopping center yes monument in addition to that you'll have your own Monument correct correct okay and we'll show you where they are go C I can see where they are any other questions Mr chairman yes I'm not sure this the right witness or the right time to answer this question but I'm thinking about it and I'm thinking about all the other stores in that shopping center if they all decide oh we need another sign you know or we need our own Monument I'm concerned about setting a precent here so I was wondering if you've discussed this with stores whether you have experience with other stores and whether this is a common request for more signage because I could imagine this could kind of let the cat out of the bag and all of a sudden we have 25 Monument signs and other store is looking for more signage and and I'm I just concerned about that I don't know whether you can even comment on it's not really a question for you but it's concern I have it's a good concern we don't want sign pollution either but this is an encap it's probably I don't have the dimensions but it is the largest and the monument sign no one else is going to get a monument sign by themselves just for this this happens to be a monument sign and you'll see where it is pointing more of a directional signage to the to the leader so you have the biggest uh building on an endcap with an entrance with the monument sign pointing to a side entrance that leads to the Leal instead of going around and doing a loop either around the streets or in the shopping center which we don't want so that and obviously we need a variance so if someone else came in you could easily deny that because of the because of the unique because of the unique we can always easily deny things because of the unique attributes of leadle that's why we think it's appropriate here and may not be for uh just one tenant in the middle asking for a a special sign okay thank you I would not undertake that representation Mr Mr Phillips any comments at this time yeah this is no I'm gonna have some questions details for lighting uplighting on that okay I think it so with with respect to the uplighting I think it's proposed but there's no details so we would propose dealing with the professionals on appropriate lighting for the that the professionals would approve us as a condition to be appr by by up you're talking downward lit yeah I'm in favor of downward lighting yeah yeah I I know what I he meant I know what he meant referring to the uplight meaning instead of whatever lighting sounds like downward that the professionals would approve so we have a condition stipulated to by the applicant I did have one question if I may Mr for the witness Mr ropi but but this application is being made by Leal uh for a lot that uh I I assume soon the the subdivision will be perfected and it'll be the lead a lot in and of itself um the uh in the event one day many many many moons from now the and Suns uh the uh uh Leal were not the the tenant on that particular lot the monument uh the relief is granted and the monument sign is installed I take it it'll I'm just thinking out loud it'll run with the lot in essence yes um so whichever tenant should there be a subsequent tenant on that lot they would uh it would be their Monument sign but uh so I just want to clarify your use of the word tenant they are right now is we a wait the subdivision an owner correct and so we'll R the land so a subsequent owner will have that same Monument correct for that end and the three signs the mon and the three signs on the building on the building on the building oh yes yes just yes quick point but we're being asked to approve the monument sign for Leal because they need it to prove that they're a food market versus a you said a car dealership so furniture that I guess that would be the question is should it run with the lot or should it run with the business well it would run with the lot right uh the land which is about to become a separate independent lot um I don't want to make anyone's case or not or or but I I believe I heard more than just the particular stores uh uh concern with its um with the market understanding that it's a market um but uh because I thought I heard something about a Taco Bell blocking to some degree Andor impacting the uh uh uh identity of where the direction you the location the Ingress is for the uh on that Boulevard by a men by men and Arena yes so I think you'll see it better when we get to the engineer you'll see exactly where it's located so I think it's also identification and I think anyone in that endcap it's a pretty sizable building I think it would help identification for um drivers uh along the way because we only have really that one we we have two but the other one is further away we have that one big Monument sign and nothing really at this endcap it's identific as well board member alesso's Vice chair alesso's concern or issue expressed that like with any variance relief uh you can't assume it's going to be the same the applicant is going to be the same recipient of the benefit of that relief forever so can I just add to that you're better suited you're the plan I think I think we have to hear the testimony but I would see nothing wrong with if and again we have to hear the testimony whether it's blocked whether it's the the user needs the identification but I see nothing wrong with a condition that if it's not legal the sign would have to go away if the board felt that that was appropriate which I think is Joe's Point yes I mean we're GNA have to hear the testimony and decide there's also somebody else's point about we set a precedent separate lot and the monument signs on the separate lot why would it have to go away I don't get that well I think we need to hear the test we're arguing a hypothesis that yeah I'm just saying theoretically Joe's point is legitimate if if the board would appeal that this sign was only needed for this particular user in my opinion I'm not the board attorney they'd have every right to condition the approval that if it's just for this particular user a supermarket I think we have to hear the customer true with the only caveat being we got to be careful about giving darant relief based upon solely upon occupant have to avoid any potential claim of discrimination as to user an occupant as a but there would be a basis under that circumstance we're getting academic and I Mr chairman but I I I I I would I would concur you know if the only reason were it were Leal well then uh uh there's an appropriate I think restriction that could be that could handle that if there's more to the story let's hear it yeah yes um uh when is it appropriate to speak about the uh changes in operation is that with this person or someone else operations there are no changes in operations uh as long delivery trucks and withdrawn that oh they oh you withdrew that yeah they withdrew that I'm sorry I didn't hear that um do we need questions of the public from for this one is there I guess we can open it up questions for this witness I guess not okay then why don't you go ahead thank you yep thank you Arthur but Point here before you get started Andrew would you uh state your name and address for the record my name is Andrew H I work for bowler engineering uh for approximately the past 10 years uh been a licensed civil engineer in state of New Jersey for approximately three uh my address is 181 South Street in Morristown and uh my license is currently and good standing and have you prepare uh have you appeared in front of planning board prior throughout the state appeared in front of a number of Boors in state of New Jersey but never here in Morris Township so you've been accepted as an expert I have been accepted as an expert i' asked that you'd be accept it as an expert I will accept it yes all right thank you so I know this uh subject it has been the uh the uh object of a number of applications we've talked about subdivisions uh Redevelopment approval things of that nature uh but again just want to help clarify so there was some confusion about what the application actually is uh we're going to be discussing only the signage as part of this application uh so to help me to do that I do want to introduce my first exhibit here signage exhibit uh the exhibit was prepared by our office and is dated today May 6th 2024 and for reference to the top top right of the page uh I'll try to help Orient all of us to where these improvements are going to be call it exhibit A1 okay I'm sorry you don't have these digitally It's Tricky if it's not you don't have these digitally uh that this I do not have digitally with me now hope it was wonderful everything was digital all of a sudden no one has digital if if the board does have the previously prep prepared landscape buffer plans in front of them uh all of the signage that is proposed on this plan is the same that's on my exhibit on the second page there so second page of that exhibit does have all the same signage uh the monument sign the building Manet sign and the banner signs so I'll just briefly discuss I know we're all probably familiar with uh the marketplace at this point uh but just to discuss the existing conditions briefly we are here at 191 East 10 overv in the township of Morris in Morris County otherwise known as block 1041 lot 3 .01 uh subdivided formally from lot three uh and this lot still is bordered I'll say to the West uh by men and sports arena to the north by East Handover AV the town of hover some other offs and Retail us beond that to the south and east we do have the remainder of the shopping center and the access to Martin Luther King Avenue uh to the South we also are bordered by a residential development and the town of Morris down Beyond as I mentioned earlier just signage here uh so nothing is changing from a bulk perspective so no additional parking no additional um building area setback changes nothing like that just the signage here and similarly our access points to menv East Hover EV and Martin Luther King Avenue are all going to remain so if anyone has any questions on existing conditions we can go over them now but if notef talk briefly about the signage all right so I think as my my colleague stepen mentioned before um and I think this may help a little bit with some of the necessity for the signage um Le really is a like you said a new player in the grocery store game it's a highly competitive environment in the United States especially in the east coast um and Leal not being a well-known name signage is very important and branding is very important I know some of you kind of make light of the fact that there is the word Food Market on the signage but it is uh as we found in their their market research very important to them um so I'll talk first about the uh uh building mounted signs you know we have these three types the building mounted the monument signage and the banner signs so the building mounted sign is being proposed on the uh South East projection of the building uh and this is facing kind of internal to the parking lot but I think more importantly this building Ming sign is facing what I would considered the main entrance of the building I have been to the site and I I use it on occasion um that really is what I would consider the main method of getting into the site main entrance to the shopping center you main entrance to the building excuse me main entrance to the sh to the shopping center on East Hover Avenue uh and this this building mounted sign does face that now from a uh content and characteristic perspective the sign is uh near identical or identical to the previously approved signs on the Northern and Eastern facades of the building so it's still approximately 126 and a half square feet uh it's still going to have the Leal logo uh and the words Food Market in Channel letters beneath it and it's going to be illuminated internally the same way the existing signs are so really you're not going to see anything new as part of this sign it's just going to be an additional sign on that Southeast corner of the building Andrew can you point out on the plan where the where the uh additional sign will be absolutely so it's just uh on the I'll call the southern uh facade of the building here a small portion projecting out just in front of the other uses users to the south of the the leadle here and and can you point out the entrance to the shopping center there U the entrance to the shopping center is just at the right edge of the page here on the center of H Avenue okay thank you so again as I mentioned here we've got um the the main Leal parking field is directly in front of the building which is being I'll say serviced by the uh Eastern facade sign but any user that would be parking to go to a different building or or coming in from this main entrance on the right side of the page here is going to be directly looking at that uh that projection uh which is really why it's been located where it is so there any questions on the the building man sign I'd be happy to to answer where I can Mr chairman yes I have a I have a good neighbor question okay um the new sign D on the plans that were distributed to us um it looks like it is next to another tenant and was there any discussion with the other tenant about the fact that that sign was going to be there and making sure that they were I'm I'm not aware of any discussions with the tenant have you had any none that none that we're aware of at this time none you're aware of okay uh just a curiosity over whether that would cause them some kind of they would have been noticed they would have been noticed for sure so they're not here I guess that's our answer right and uh just because it was brought up by by Stephen earlier I do want to mention that the uh the internal illumination is controlled the same way that all the uh other illumination of the signs are turning off and on with the opening and closing of the store uh in that matter as well so in addition to to that building man one more question you said it's the same size as the other one that the other two that's correct um how big is it do you have an idea how big it is it in relation to the it's the Burlington sign there that's that's at the the monument sign yeah no the no the the D the new the new building sign oh on on the Burlington I'm not familiar with how large that sign is and I'm trying to think of it for memory and I can't this this this Leal signs you know it's 8 by8 for the logo and a little bit WI and quite a bit Shor it's two feet tall for the channel letters so I mean when you're up there at 15 feet or so it's about I'd say it fits very appropriately with the building but actually I can't really speak to what the other Burlington sign is I'm sorry yeah no not the monument I was talking the building sign exactly yep exactly the same as all the rest of the Leal signs but no differ exactly same as the one here's like yes all right so uh Le's also proposing a number of banner signs they calling on these are double-sided I'd say they're they're very if you're curious as to what they are they're very similar to kind of seasonal signs you might see them around Christmas time on light poles uh they typically get a fix to the side of light poles not the fixtures themselves uh just the poles these particular signs that LE is looking to add uh are two and a half fet wide by 5 feet long uh so you get 12 and a half square feet uh per Banner sign uh and these Banner signs are going to be extending from the leadle parking area light poles uh down to that main entrance we talked about uh to the center uh on East T Avenue so these existing light Poes are both along uh East H Avenue facing into the site and then there are some mid parking aisle spine light poles that also are being proposed to get added these additional Banner signs so I think these again are one of those identification type signes there's IL Leal in the in the facility only temporary cor these are temporary Banner sign so I I have a question so it sounds like to me that you're proposing putting these Banner signs beyond what will eventually be the property line for that subdivision that's correct and and the current landlord is aware and is okay with that yeah and consented to the application the currently has consented to this application and and when you say temporary the sign will just say Leal food food market or is it going to say something different the banner signs are uh going to sayal Food market with the logo on them as well as pictures of produce right okay so as long as it doesn't say you know you know grand opening and it's not up there for six months or they are grand opening signs that is the way they are identified to us but they do not say grand opening on okay and the dates that you want want these signs does does le have an official date that they were requesting these signage no official date so we'd be at the discuss need that right wasn't the request for six months six months request is for six months okay apologize six months yeah that's what I thought how many signs would there be there's a total of uh 19 light poles between the Leal building and the entrance on Hanover Avenue so with double signed if you want to count that as two or one you're either at 19 or 38 38 sorry for Mr chair is it a doublesided banner or are there two banners there's there two banners they're separated one on either side of the light pole so I think it's I would say conservatively as I would like to say 38 right so it's it's 38 where it's 38 okay 38 it is 38 two by five two and a half by five yes okay two and a half by five and these are light polls that go all the way to Martin Luther King or just into uh just to the entrance off Hanover Avenue there's that many B Poes between yeah there's nine along the along Handover that they're nine well I don't know 12 a long hand over 12 a Handover and seven within the the parking field within the 19 okay any just the light PS facing P not the ones on the side B see what oh minute all right so the last may I ask a question with respect to the temporary bench well before I forget and I appreciate the accommodation the the um just out of curiosity uh if uh you only cover the light PS within the uh previously sub uh approved subdivision area that has not yet been perfected um how many light poles would have banners on them I believe the number would be somewhere in the four to six range but I could get that uh officially that and and that would be inclusive of the uh uh those that are along the right of way of Beast Handover and those that are interior in the parking area that's correct so the the total would be somewhere between four to six I'll have to verify that number that would be then somewhere between this this is about as good as my math gets 8 to 12 if you were to look at the Double okay right thank you 8 to 12 and do we have a am I correct Paul that our current number per the ordinance is well what is there is there a number with respect to Temporary banners I got to double check that myself for some reason I thought it was uh there was a number not just the the square footage and the time frame time frames of four weeks if I recall correctly correct yeah because you and I'm sorry for doing do not do not exceed 32 square feet Mr ropi you're understanding there's a a number cap on how many temporary banners before relief is necessary from the ordinance or uh or is it just simply size and duration I think no I think you know I I think that there is a cap on signs temporary signs what's the number I think it's one temporary sign 32 square feet is permitted for four weeks this really a sign yeah this is a little different than a grand opening big sign yeah this is more like what I see going down on Madison Avenue on Main Street in in Madison they frequently have like every single one of those has you know whatever it is they're advertising whether it's the rotary or you know whatever that's what it looks like one of the ones you see on a roadway really more than a grand opening sign that you see in the window so I uh Mr Warner asked me the question I think somebody could interpret it that way right we think these are different than a reg I see them differently than a grand opening sign I think in a sense it's a directional you follow the signs and it takes you right to the building right you come in the there there is no directional component to the signs there's no arrows there's nothing driver Like You Follow the yellow it does have identifica purposes yes I view it more as like an event sign more like you see change during the seasons sometimes on a pole going down the street and Morristown let's say and those light poles when you know they they're advertising or promoting um an Easter or some event so that's how I see it it's temporary to to show people that lead all this year come visit us and you know for six months is what we're requesting if I may Mr chairman yes I know this is sort of a subjective question but from the applicant's perspective if the board were to inquire as to which is more important the six Monon versus the 4-week duration or the 38 signs versus a lesser number uh is there uh what's the preference from the applicant I think it's 19 of these Banner signs well it' be 38 19 polls two signs on each pole 38 total see you are really good at mouth well missed my calling is again 19 pairs like that it's actually one side hang we would be I think our preference would be reduce the sign somewhat but give us the six months to let everybody know we're here and I only ask that question to the extent the board may be looking at it and saying well they're asking for more signs than you usually get they're asking for a greater duration where do we go or Burlington's next yeah yeah um I I just want to make the well my my um opinion or point is that I I really want these stores to be successful and and I do see this as uh you know an important project with with we want all the stores to be successful and this is a big store and it is a store that is maybe less known so I really have no objection to this I think six months is like boom it's over and for it to get its traction and get its audience and its um customers I just don't really see any downside to it I see the way these things sit on light poles they're not obtrusive they're not you know you if you're not looking for that that particular shopping experience you're not even going to see it so I that's just my opinion about it Mr robs just a followup to what I was asking before so you're looking for six months on 19 polls um when if and when this is is granted to you when do you anticipate the six months starting and do you see a need uh in 25 26 27 of asking for something similar this is this is at least as I understand it and has been presented to me as really a grand opening type sign not the ones you see you know in the windows but you know by the way we wouldn't we wouldn't spend the money because this cost us you could imagine amount of money to get them up there and put them up there and get them made but um more of a grand opening so we don't see it happening again and again again this is a one time event and I want to just acknowledge um my colleague uh miss van order that I agree we want these stores to be successful and anything that we can do to help you know with that's that's reasonable you know I think that uh we we're on board with that you know they have to get M man manufactured and then so or a little more than a month whatever else yeah Mr qu have a question about the banners would you maintain these banners in good condition if they get damaged six months seems like a long time I'm not sure what the materials are we yes we would I think we have an obligation to as as a as a tenant or owner in the shopping center and we obviously would commit to that as a condition because we can't have we have a beautiful Center there I think this board did a great job as well as the council in designing or helping to design collaborating with the design of this Center we won't have torn banners sitting around that would be terrible the uh decrepit signs reflect just as poorly on Leal as you guys would make it feel on your I mean good question we'd be happy to add that condition to the the okay anything else on the any other questions yes I I would just like to um acknowledge Mr fan oron's comments too because she sees she sees really what the purpose of it is that we're here and I it's easy to lose sight of that so I appreciate your saying that all right well the last uh got a question okay I let's move on to the monument sign the uh the last sign that that LE is requesting here is a monument sign uh is the maximum allowable by the ordinance of 36 square feet uh and just to orient you as to where it is uh now I'm talking about the the main entrance of leadle at the northern corner of the building if you to travel east out to Hanover Avenue that sign is in a landscaped area approximately 10 ft setback from the property line I'll point to it here but it's just Northeast of the uh Leal building and it is a relatively small sign in relation to the size of the overall Monument sign in the center uh but the sign does have the same branding that you do on the facade here which is a uh Leal logo with a the words it's Food Market beneath it but also surrounded by a nice masonry uhad the sign um in addition to that masonry pad we're also going to have a small Landscaping bed around the faad uh fully compliant with the Redevelopment criteria with some blue switch grass excuse me Blue Fescue and some switch grass now I think this Monument sign does uh I think was brought up a little bit in the original testimony by by Stephen here and that's um you you do lose a lot of visibility to your site with the presence of the out parcel Taco Bell to the north um and that inter ction at Hanover Avenue and menav is uh cars stopped at stoplights is the main uh visibility for a lot of users especially retail users that require pass by traffic uh I think it's important to note that if you're trying to look all the way down the road or look into the shopping center you're not ever going to see uh any representation of leadle until you get to that overall Monument sign of which they just have a panel so this does provide some bit of a benefit um we're about two 300 feet um from the intersection there and I think it's uh provides a nice advanced warning that you'll be able to turn into the site at the entrance on Han a or if you're traveling the opposite direction if you're traveling west you can uh turn left and enter through menav so this does provide that you know offset to I know we were kind of talking originally about the um need for this sign for leadle and I think not only are they being blocked by one of their out Parcels there's no sight line to the the facade signage on the building but also this is the main end cap user tenant uh soon to owner of the uh of the shopping center there and it is a uh identification sign again in a very competitive retail grocery market so uh for that reason I think we need the uh um the monument sign where it's placed uh yes Mr chairman yes Mr so you've given us a picture of what the sign's going to look like it says note Stone masonary by others can we expect that this is what the color generally the color of this stone is going to be uh yes but if you have a different opinion on what just asking if that's what it's gonna look like that's the intent of just asking looks great sure yeah I think Mr Keller will be talking about the details of the signs also the signs themselves so this is more about the placement sorry Sor any other questions on that question by chairo should the board so desire with the applicant stipulate that the monument sign would in color and material be as depicted in whatever exhibit was just um why don't we wait till we hear the testimony on the details of the sign themselves before we decide this right they could STI to it you don't have to take it okay well I think we might put it a different way actually forget that stipulation got written down don't forget I any other questions for the business uh any the professionals Jim Paul anything more any questions from the public of this witness no I guess not so okay thank you very much appreciate we'll hear from Mr Kell now yeah our last witness Mr Keller good evening everyone nice to be back I've lost track of how many times I've testified on this project um but I'm happy to be back and talking about it again but can you tell the board in what capacity you're here T yes first off for the record Eric Keller vice president with Bowman Consulting Group six Campus Drive in P siony um I am testifying tonight of as a professional planner I'm a licensed planner in the state of New Jersey since 1987 or 88 I lost track um should there be any traffic related questions since I was also the traffic consultant for this project multiple times um I am also a licensed professional engineer in the state of New Jersey um and both my licenses in New Jersey and in other states are in good standing and current and you've been accepted as an expert by this board I have I asked that planing it yes we will accept it again thank you so bear with me I I can't wear my glasses when I read this but now I can't see any of you so I'm G to be doing this I can relate so um we are requesting the following variances or deviations a deviation from from the requirements of section 3-g d 3g. one of the Redevelopment plan to allow a third wall sign where two are permitted uh for this building because it fronts it's a it's a corner fronts on men and drive and Handover Avenue a deviation from the same requirements of the Redevelopment plan to allow a monument sign in a location not specified that being at the Menan Arena driveway or the MLK entrance which is what the Redevelopment plan has had contemplated there is one at men and drive but that's for the collections which is a residential project behind us the one at MLK was never installed it was not asked for was not installed we are also seeking a variance from section 95-44 of the zoning ordinance to allow a total of 38 temporary banners each 12 1 12 square ft to be placed bed on 19 light poles two banners per pole for a period of 6 months um whereas one temporary sign of 32 square feet is permitted for four weeks uh and also and and this is a variance if you determine it to be it is not a variance if also if you determine it it's not a variance because the uh ordinance at 95- 44k uh gives the planning board the the ability to uh wave the strict the strict application of this which is uh 12 of the temporary signs are within 20 feet of the RightWay of Handover Avenue because they're on L poles the L Poes are at 20 feet since the banners extend towards the right of away they're about 17 17 and a half 18 feet from the right of way and therefore are not meeting that 20 foot setback from the right away of Handover Avenue now as you've heard many times before variances can be granted uh under njsa 40 colon 55 d-7 C either subsection one or two one being the hardship and two being the planning benefits outweigh the detriment these are all clearly C2 variance requests and therefore we will outline the positive criteria uh for this and the uh the negative criteria uh for those same under the C2 criteria so the purposes of planning that in my opinion are satisfied uh by this request for C2 variances for all of these signs is a to encourage M Municipal action to guide the appr use or development of all lands in this state in a manner which will promote the public health safety morals and general welfare and H to encourage location and design of Transportation routes which will promote the free flow of traffic while discouraging locations of such facilities and and routes which result in congestion or blight now the proposed number of wall signs as Mr Al indicated we have a sign and I'm sorry I grew up in this area to me East Han R is east and west so that's West yes you know playing upper left East is towards MLK North Handover toship is north of this thank you it's the way I grew up I can't change it I know which way the Cardinal arrow is pointing so um so the there is an existing sign facing Menan there is an existing sign facing Hanover well this internal driveway that runs across the entire Center and all the way out to Martin Luther King is also a roadway in my opinion it's serving this entire shopping center and this particular building has a jog in it and it has a jog of sufficient size that placing that same side sign of the same size that already exists on the other two facades is appropriate and in cont text with that building the Burlington sign I mean the Burlington also has a fairly wide facade and their sign is up very high and is kind of centered in the middle of that building so there's not a conflict where you know you have Burlington and right next to it is a Leal you know you don't have that um and I think it's important as both of the prior Witnesses have testified Le is an endcap it's 1,600 ft from Martin Luther King this is a very long and drawn out Center so this needs to have um when you're coming through this Center which I've done a number of times you don't know unless you know that's Leal down at the end you can't tell um and the um the three signs all three signs will never be visible at any one time I'll talk more about that uh in a little bit the monument sign it's conforming in size and setback it's PL it's placed to identify uh the store location and as Mr om Al indicated it reinforces the function of the freestanding sign where I'm going to put my traffic hat on for a little bit what you want to do is to create multiple opportunities we're hoping that as people learn this Monument sign which is visible from the intersection at Menan people hey I can turn in here at men and driveing and come into the shopping center but if not then they see the sign and go oh there's the store and then they will enter at the what I call the center driveway it aligns with the Western driveway of the Sho rate so um and that's where to me it's a freestanding sign different than a monument because it's El elated above the ground and Leal is one component of that overall sign and there's a lot on there so this is a reinforcing sign uh to support that and as I mentioned the the monument sign that is was constructed and constructed in accordance with the Redevelopment plan at the intersection is for the residential Town Homes to the rear of us uh this Monument sign is 280 feet actually 278 feet from the existing Monument sign so there's plenty of Separation you're not getting signs overlapping and it's about 800 feet from this Monument sign to the freestanding sign at that Center driveway so there's a good spacing among amongst the signs which is something that we as Traffic Engineers and planners look at and that you don't want signs lapping on to each other uh the temporary banners signs I think you've heard enough from Mr Deo Mr Ali this is all to help promote Leal the grocery Marketplace in New Jersey is brutal and there's a lot they're new to it they need to attract people and this goes to their branding and to their marketing to make them a successful store um and uh um I think that is the main focus of that and to have the multiple signs when you're driving down Hanover AV um you know there's a lot of other things to look at and this gives you the opportunity to to reinforce see it a couple times as you drive along and not be too distracted from your primary focus of driving um um the and I think the size of these 2 and 1/2 ft by 5T is in context with the signs those light pole with I'm sorry with the light poles those light poles are 25 feet in height so it's it's when you're on a Main Street generally those poles are 12 to 15 feet and your banner is a little smaller well if you put that size Banner on these poles it would a not be in context it would not fit physically it also would be impossible to read you need to have a certain size to be able to read those signs and I think these signs are in context with the size of the light Pooles now just to touch on the goals and objectives of of the Redevelopment plan in section 2A as it relates to the sign uh is to improve the Aesthetics of the property and establish site and building standards that will Foster high quality development within the Redevelopment area I think you see that out there now and I think the proposed signs will be in keeping with that goal um to repurpose the Handover Avenue Frontage with retail and Commercial uses Anover Avenue has transformed know I worked down the road for a lot of years now we're over Pary but this Corridor has changed tremendously and I think for the better um for for Mars Township and for Handover uh for what has happened along there um and then the other the last goal and objective is to Foster appropriate relationships between buildings streets parking areas recreational areas walkways and landscaped areas within the Redevelopment area I think these signs all fit within that they don't overwhelm it in any way they don't uh overstep the Aesthetics of the building or of the site itself now we have to talk about the negative criteria so you the board must find that each of the variances can be granted without substantial detriment to the public good and without substantially impairing the intent and purpose of the Zone plan and the zoning ordinance the grant of these variances in my opinion will advance the purpose of planning pursuant to the municipal land use law um we note the following the signs both the building sign and the temporary signs are permitted by code um relief on the number of signs and the location and duration of the installation of the temporary signs is unique to this site and to this tenant um the monument sign is also a permitted sign within the Redevelopment plan just not in this location it's always anticipated that there would be two Monument signs it was always intended that it would be on Martin Luther King in this case because of the specifics of this site how the shopping center has laid out um and somewhat of the you know this endcap being separated really in context from the rest of the ma main mass of the shopping center I think it is appropriate in hindsight that the monument sign is appropriately located along here on Martin Luther King I don't think it would have fit in as well which is one of the reasons it wasn't put in and I think this location whether it's for Leal or some other future use I think it's important because this endcap is you know separated in a way from the rest of the center and as Mr omali indicated it is blocked to a degree by the Taco Bell and the beautiful landscaping that's out there so you know we need to identify this endcap and that Monument sign does it in a tasteful and appropriate manner um there will be no adverse impact to the neighborhood as a relief requested is appropriate for this location on of of a facility on a County Road and the and the signs are in keeping with the architectural design as noted this the sign that is proposed the monument sign that is proposed the design of that uh the overall sign is 6 feet by 6 feet 36 fet which is compliant the Leal Legend itself is where's the dimension on here well it's 3 foot 4 in by 4 foot 4 in so it's about I think it's about 16 square feet or so uh the sto the Limestone cap and the stone finish on that is and I don't know if it's exactly the same as what is at uh the corner for the collection sign but it is in the same theme and tone um and that is the sign that is proposed the building mounted sign that we're putting on the East facade that small Eastern facade is exactly the same as the other two signs that are already up there so um it's my opinion in conclusion that these variances can be granted gred without any substantial detriment to the public good or to the impairment of the Zone plan for the following reasons the third wall mounted sign is conforming in size and ident identifies a store from the balance of the shopping center to the east no more than two signs are visible from any perspective um and from inside the shopping center the only sign that you will be able to see as you travel West towards Menan is that East facade sign uh the monument sign is also conforming in size and setback it is appropriately placed and is sufficiently spaced from the other Monument freestanding signs along Handover Avenue as I said a couple of times a second Monument sign was permitted in the Redevelopment plan just not in this location the temporary Banner signs are to identify Leal to the general public and to build their brand um and the setback of the temporary banners along Hanover Avenue being less than 20 feet to the right away of Handover Avenue is a function of where the poles are located so it's still a sufficient distance back that they're not intrusive they're not impactful on the motoring public um and uh creating a a hazard in any way so for all those reasons uh I I believe that the board has the ability to Grant these variants is uh in accordance with the C2 criteria thank you any questions for this witness yes Mr could you give us the benefit of pointing out on the exhibit that the other exhibit A1 I'm a little confused as do you keep saying that this Monument was supposed to be somewhere else it's not on the drawing it's it's not the Redevelopment plan said that there were to be two Monument signs one at the intersection of men and drive in Handover Avenue that Monument sign was built and it is for the collections is that the monument sign that we see in this package that you handed out no on the last page of the packet that's the proposed that's a proposed right but there's a monument sign just before that where I'll call it a a partial no that in my terminology this one correct Mr aleso correct this is a freestanding sign because it is not a monument sign in my terminology sits on the ground how many free standing signs are there one many how many monuments are there with this proposed one there would be two so where's the fre standing sign free standing sign is right at the uh Center driveway U opposite the shop right driveway and where's the monument that exists that is up here thank you so it's about 1100 ft between that Monument sign and that freestanding sign and The Monument's on the corner right the monument on the corners for collections correct but if I may Mr chairman just to round out the answer the other Monument sign that was uh permitted pursuant to the Redevelopment agreement as I understand it would have would have been at the MLK Avenue entrance which maybe you could point out for the benefit of the I can't Mr not on that one you can't you're right it's over here somewhere over that's right it's a little further actually it's down here some place so if I understand correctly it's not so much that you're proposing a third Monument sign you're not you're proposing a second Monument sign but one that is not in one of the two permitted locations and therefore that's a deviation from the Redevelopment ordinance with respect to uh uh uh the monument sign that is correct Mr Warner okay because I think at some point I read something where we had it as a third but it's really a just a yeah no non-permitted location that's correct so just to be clear on this there ER how many Monument signs okay are there currently if any for the retail commercial portion of the project zero that's okay so just for the board's edification there was Provisions for Monument or the retail portion of the center at both men and MLK and apparent ly none of them were built this is for the retail commercial correct but those Monument signs per the Redevelopment plan were only to identify the shopping center per se not specific tenants just so that the board is clear on what the intent of the Redevelopment like the name of the shopping center correct to identify the center so what is the monument sign at the minim entry that's for the residential component colle so were they also going to have a residential resdential provision for residential also both on men and ml so then there's built on that's there no there's one on mlkk I thought you said there was nothing on I meant for the commercial for the commercial there's nothing on MLK so if I understand correctly we were they were allowed two monuments for residential two monuments for commercial and one freeing what do you call it freeing freeing that's correct and they've built no monuments for commercial correct so theoretically someone else could come back and ask for a monument that's not been corrected no they could ask for the monument but again the Redevelopment plan specified that it would be to identify the center non just trying to follow the argument here is that we need it so people know we're a supermarket and we need it I'm becoming more confused there so the Redevelopment plan allowed two Monument signs for the for the marketplace remember it that way either two one on the property is identifying theal so the one 3g. says signage in the retail commercial component correct now come back oh I'm sorry in section 3G point2 we're correct there were none were built for the commercial residential the Redevelopment plan also permitted a monument sign at the men and Arena Drive access well it says access points I'm not sure if that meant down men and I think it meant down men and drive not at Hanover Avenue I think I think it meant at the time over here that's what I recall that that there was being discussed that off in addition to that's correct right I don't recall that if if the well I I don't recall how it happened but the monument sign at Menan Arena driveway entrance which I'm intending or implying interpreting to be at Hanover Avenue they did put one in but it wasn't for the commercial so free G2 the Redevelopment agreement appears to provide for that Monument sign the collections residential Monument sign 3 G1 appears to provide for two additional Monument signs under retail commercial compon one at men and Arena drive one at MLK MLK not built men and Arena drive I guess for the retail not built buil right and it does say to identify the shopping center in there somewhere correct uh signage perat shall be specified name of the Sho name of the Sho so if we approve this um Monument sign it could potentially even though it would be the first built it could be the first of three ultimately uh that advertise the I would say two the commercial properties within the marketplace remember two Monument signs are allowed but they have to only identify the shopping center so if someone else were to come in for a second Monument side they would still require a variance of they only identified that ten in my professional opinion okay they'd have to be one of the two locations that's permitted they'd have to provide for the Senate right yeah correct yeah another question this gets back to Mr L's previous question On You' mentioned do well on the monument sign for collections that's on the corner of men and and Hanover how big is that you know I I don't know specifically but looking at it it is in you know the same in in the allowable sign size okay 20 square feet is what's allowed for the residential and this one is well I think the one at at at hover Avenue and Men And Drive is probably 36 square feet I I I I did not measure it because that's it's it's there but I would say looking at it and I walked up and down Handover Avenue um that sign is more than 20 square feet all I can tell you is what's in the Redevelopment yeah yeah and it's two signs one at men one MLK for the residential 20 square feet is the I yeah that sounds about right to me because they seem kind of small say though if you look at that collection sign it looks appropriate for what it's intended to do well I well I guess my SEC the second question is you mentioned it would be you know consistent in theme and tone or something and I would like that that to be part of the stipulation is that it is and there we come back to the stipulation exactly right we all remember it yeah because because you know it does look like I remember those Monument signs and with the Limestone cap and the stone side so I think it yeah and and it's the same style the the the panel that says collections is similar I don't know that it's exactly the same but it is in similar in character and size right um so you have kind of peer on the side and a base right the peers go a little bit higher than you're you're you're right Mr benw it does they actually have kind of like peers and then the sign is a little bit lower just a little B looks nice this is a little bit different design but I don't think that that's no will this um Mining and sign also be either dimmed or off during non business hours as Mr Deo indicated would be tied into their system so it would go off when the store was closed 30 minutes 30 30 minutes after yeah right yes question I I hate to sound ignorant here I'm losing what's a collection sign that's that's a neighborhood yes it's the collection one of Lor's themes is the collection it's the collection at Morristown not Morris thinking my book you was St on oh man no comment strike that from the yes yeah M Phil Eric I just want to be clear on this the existing faad signs they are each 100 square feet correctos 100 square feet correct okay at one point I think for some reason we were thinking it was 126 square feet I think a prior witness said that I just want to be clear it's 100 square feet which is the maximum it is and we confirmed that with with Mr Slate's office and the prior previously issued building permits okay and then just one other thing uh and this goes back to the issue that Joe brought up and that Linda commented on and we where when I said let's hear the test testimony so putting aside the temporary Banner sign putting that aside so dealing with the additional facade sign and the Min sign uh is the variance in your opinion is the variance request justification related to Leal as a specific tenant or any prospective end cap tenant at that location given the physical conditions and fact pattern I I think it's subject it's not Leal itself it is the location and the design of the shopping center that's good answer to testified that the reason why you needed sign people didn't know what that needed the market I'm sorry I didn't mean to no that was your justification as to why you needed the money now you're saying it's not because it's real it's because it's an endcap and an endcap should have its own monum it's actually both I think I mean it's it is both but I think if this was not Leal maybe the temporary Banner signs and and Mr Phillips was not asking about those I think that Monument sign is important no matter what tenant was in that Mr Deo said they used to have just Leal and people were like what's a Leal that's why they put the food market on there there so that people knew that it was a food market but for the monument sign it reinforces the position that is the store that is located at that incap that's re then reinforced by the freestanding sign um and the words Food Market helped tell people what they sell I'll say one other thing because we were here a number of times and I remember I don't know if Miss Murphy remembers but I remember that she said at one time and we thought the same thing that the the space the distance from you know where men and is all the way to that freestanding sign there should be something for these stores here so people know right that they're on this side and so a monument sign I don't know if you remember I'm nodding because I agree with you we all looked at each other and said yeah it it it cries out because otherwi people wander through that parking lot they don't know where to go yeah the other the other thing too that's different with the Western end of this shopping center is it is significantly set back from Handover Avenue the Eastern stores the first grouping of stores I mean you have they're within 100 feet of Handover Avenue it is very easy to see the signs on the facade these facade signs are difficult to to read which is why in you know retail centers there's usually usually a layering of signs and that's what we're trying to accomplish here um and uh that's our proposal we need to get back to the lighting on the monument sign then we started to discuss that before I think and uh I think we need I think I asked that question and they said it would be we would we'll work with work with your Prof to do a a you know down mon not back the lit from front you're asking kind like for frog lights yeah so we'll do let this happen at the administrative level thanks Jim approval professional okay okay yeah subject to lighting the wall mounted sign is internally illuminated like the other ones are and the banner signs are not lit at all other than by the fact that they're underneath the lels the light fixers we're not sure we just push it to Mr Slate because he has nothing else to do we have a lot of any other questions for no uh any questions from the public oh I'm sorry Mr War yes I took care of everything in our reports I believe although there was an environmental commission report I recall correctly I don't want to just uh make sure we covered all of them oh yeah was there for this one no I think that January 2024 environmental commission Le that was more with the uh plantings I don't remember seeing this the plantings yeah they to redo some of the plannings on the B yeah some landscaping and I don't know how they got the noise oh because of the the night yeah right right that's how they got the noise uh and the uh but there was some Landscaping uh conditions I don't know if you have that well we we eliminated Landscaping as part of the eliminating the loading area loading areas okay and then the signage I guess they didn't have any with respect to signage right no site plan uh review and fire department nothing and I believe that is it there but I did have a couple of questions with respect to the temporary banners and I just want to make sure we're all comfortable uh uh from a planning perspective um because the temporary the our ordinance defines temporary is four weeks not six months um and our ordinance seems to limit to one temporary sign not 38 and the request is for beyond the lot itself in essence we have a lot uh lead a lot we'll call it um and uh this goes throughout uh uh half the shopping center well beyond the boundary of the Leal lot so I guess my questions are from a planning perspective Mr Keller what would you understand the intent of the four-week limitation and the one sign versus 38 sign limitations to be what was the intent well I think a temporary sign and when you read that section of the ordinance um it talks about erected for a special event such as an election sale bizar similar event that's not what really this is but we didn't have any other way to categorize these signs so you know th this is these signs are not intended nor driven by a a singular event it's for Branding and it's for uh Market U forget the word that I used you know penetration um and for to to inform the public about who leadle is and to to bring them into the store so it is a little bit different purpose which is why we're asking for more signs so that there's multiple opportunities as people travel by and Handover Avenue or within the center itself because there's many many stores in this Center to give them an opportunity to say hey let me check out the leadle um the length of time is because it takes time for people to change their behavior know it's not something you know people resist change so this is an opportunity for them to to be have it reinforced that this is something that they should come and visit and and I understand that the the duration the number of signs second prong of the negative criteria no substantial impairment of the Zone plan or zoning ordinance am I correct that that's essentially to paraphrase uh the planning board should not usurp the role of the governing body in zoning by ordinance by in instead zoning by exception or variance is that accurate it in certain circumstances yes it is I mean that's that's a that's what the second prong of negative criteria stands for correct right and and there's something called sign pollution correct if you I don't know if I could it's like Beauty in the eye though Beholder perhaps but what is sign pollution it's it's an overabundance of signs where they overlap each other they interfere with the function of other signs so there's the possibility of there being too many in number at some point that would constitute in your opinion sign pollution yes but this does not rise to that level these signs are substantially set apart from each other they're not on top of each other they're creating a uh a kind of a corridor view you know you're seeing them as you go down the parking aisles so to me that is not sign pollution and Mr but in addition to those these 38 Banner signs there's additional signs Monument signs wall signs uh uh freestanding signs throughout the center including these temporary banners would be behind Monument signs and in front of wall signs of other non-lethal buildings correct well they they would not be in front of any other Monument signs or freestanding signs they are separated from those permanent signs and as far as saying they're in front of wall signs for Burlington and however many other tenants they'll be in front of um yes they are in the parking fields in front of those stores but they because they're also perpendicular to Handover Avenue uh and they're perpendicular to the or parallel to the rows of parking those signed banners themselves are not blocking the view of the building mounted signs for Burlington for Red Wings for whatever the other stores are in that I think we call that building h I forget I'm sorry building set back from the roadway in your opinion would the board be unreasonable in the event the board were to determine that all the signs were approved including the temporary banners being approved for six months but limited them to the polls that are on the Leal lot would that be unreasonable uh in your opinion for the board to make such a determination or would it be within their discretion well anything is within their discretion let let me answer it this way I think it would be unreasonable to limit it to that narrow portion of the parking lot just in front of the Leal store um I I would propose I mean I have I mean there's a lot of things I the uh the store M the the store signs the new one on the on the jog out I think wall sign the wall sign that blank empty wall looks funny now without one without something on it I think it fits there also I remember in the whole Marketplace thing we tried to make it more walkable we were trying to put sidewalks in there in public areas and it annoys me when I'm walking down on a shopping area something like that you're walking along the storefronts and you can't see what's in you know the stores in front of you and I think that's very good both from a driving and from a pedestrian point of view so I have no that one makes perfect sense um the monument sign given that seems relatively minor to me that we're moving it and making it you know for Lial I think that and it's in a probably good position and it's out there in front of an highlighting leadle um but the number of the banner seem a lot I kind of like I mean the banners look all right but extending them all the way down almost to the the main entrance seems excessive to me um and but you know given the standards right just just in front of the store or the little property itself seems too restrictive um but I would see something down to like to that main there's one median parking median there that's landscaped that's not that one this is Orange Theory the I I don't forget what the building number is right so I guess we could say in front of the building that leadle is the endcap for any of the the light poles in that area is that what your that that just seems like you too much to me I mean I you know extending them all anywhere from that that median there this that one yes anything to and I agree to the west of that plan North seems reasonable to me I I don't know if the what the rest of the board I like that too yes I I really do see this because it's temporary and it's a an attempt to you know to do a certain amount of saturation and education of the public I I don't object at all I I like signs that point me and remind me of things um wouldn't want them up there permanently um I just have a different point of view about that I I I that wouldn't bother me at all I don't think of them is obtrusive or you know and maybe three months or four months instead of six months I I would you know that that might be another angle on it I'm fine with the six months I'm fine with the 19 polls times two if we have to but I don't really I really still think of it as 19 you know whether you see them two sided or not I'm gonna agree with my colleague on that I don't because this is a limited time and because you're still in The Branding stage of your building the business and the fact that they are parallel to the parking lot and they're not going to be blocking any other business's uh Frontage sign uh I'm okay with the way it is as as proposed I would also kind of agree with that um another distinction I would draw is um what's the name of those signs that they they sit in the ground and they're kind of like shaped like feathers or something flut flutter Flags flutter Flags you know I think of like driving down Route 22 and there'll be like 65 of them in front of a liquor store you know um and this is you know these are these are tasteful they're they're they're off the ground um I'm fine with it Joe you had a no no oh okay [Laughter] question related to I don't think I heard this earlier but that the Landscaping is being eliminated I think that was the first that was mentioned is that um you know that earlier we we only were proposing Landscaping there's landscaping around the monument but we were only proposing other Landscaping when we were talking about having truck deliveries after and they were on that U that burn between the commercial and the residential which we don't even own okay but I got that I understand that but the first I heard it was being eliminated I understand the trucking you know requests after our deliveries was removed but I just realize that was all part of that and Eric Eric first mentioned that you know just now there's also dead Landscaping to be replaced that's called out on this plan is that going to be be done dead Landscaping will be replaced by Le depends on who property it's on We Will We Will We can we we will you can make it a condition of the approval either lell um need or uh or uh March Marketplace will replace the dead landscape might be an Andor right Andor yeah because that is part of so yeah and how long have these been up there shouldn't they be warranteed anyway they should be right A lot of them died like that okay so I would say that's a Morris Marketplace issue I was that part of the original approval was maintain the Landscaping clear right the Landscaping on the Mars Marketplace property Leal is still part of the Morris Marketplace property this is not not the residential because we don't own that okay this is showing stuff to be replaced on the residential property that's on your plane is it behind yes that was all part of the uh that was all part of the truck deliveries at night and needed the consent of the residential so the residential should really take care of the dead landscap I'm sure they would probably consent to you replace just a guess I don't know if I could commit to on on behalf of Mars Marketplace or Leal to replace dead Landscaping on property that's not ours and for which and for which we're really not asking none of the relief we're request has anything to do with the Landscaping on the burn lar should should take care of it happy to ask Lar if if what if the uh residential property owners don't want to do it then you don't have to do it if they're okay with it then you can do it I'm just going by what's on your plan I understand it's subject to but again the plan that area was done because we were asking for the that we wanted to make sure that we were going to not only um replace dead Landscaping but enhance it for the late night delivery of the truck we were also uh talking about other mitigation related to that but since since we were through that as part of our application you know we don't we don't think and because our application has no bearing on that firm whatsoever really should be the residences to replace that I agree with your point Thank you getting back to the banners I'm not sure we finished that conversation I agree with Mr B that it would be nice to have fewer banners maybe 10 light Falls maybe eight light PS uh or if instead it were all 19 light PS to restrict the time period from six months to something shorter like three months or four months and I don't know if there's anyone else other than just the two of us on the board who feel that way but I'm curious to know if that's the case I vote for 19 19 for six months okay sounds 19 19 banners okay no I I'm okay with that I have no problem with that also it's temporary okay right okay I'm just uh any other questions no Jim Paul nothing you we okay Steve with we go to public we are uh okay any questions from the public okay Mr chair wait a minute any comments any comments from the public okay now Mr chair I would like to make a motion that we approve this application but I'm going to ask Mr Warner to help me because I'm a little confused as to the idea of a waiver that the plan brought up so I'll do my best 38 signs but I'm not sure if that's granting them a variance or a well a few things I'll go through Ringo said with a little help for my friend maybe Joe Cocker I don't know the um as I understand it's an application for amended site plan approval uh deviation from the Redevelopment agreement uh for a third wall sign where only whereas only two are permitted for leadle uh per 3 G1 of the Redevelopment agreement Redevelopment agreement deviation for a monument sign in a location for the retail component in a location other than the two provided for in the Redevelopment agreement as well as uh for Leal alone as opposed to the shopping center uh uh as a whole got it then I pull they they they also deviating from 3G one of the Redevelopment agreement those are the two Redevelopment agreement deviations um and uh I believe it would be variance relief from the temporary signage Provisions for uh temporary signs for 6 months versus a maximum of four weeks permitted and temporary signage in number uh of 38 uh and uh as opposed to Apparently one um and also a I believe it would be still also a variance uh from uh for some of the temporary signage to be located within 20 ft of the right of way the former violating section 95-44 meaning the number and and duration of the temporary signage and the latter uh the location within 20 feet of RightWay for some of those temporary signs violating section 95-44 K that is the relief and if nobody objects or corrects that uh the conditions of approval as I understand it would be uh downward lit Monument uh signs uh subject to the review and approval of our Township engineer and uh the signage would have to be maintained in good faith uh the temporary signage and all of it for that matter and that is provided for in the Redevelopment agreement and in our ordinance but it'll be an explicit condition as well and the color materials uh theme and tone uh of the proposed Monument sign would be consistent with the ex existing Monument sign as well as the monument sign as depicted in the plans that would be subject to the review and approval of our Township planner sure there is no existing mon there one I believe is what was referred to as the existing Min sign that's the residential one yeah but but I believe that is being used as a barometer for right consistency purposes uh and no Landscaping condition so that's all I have on conditions did you mention the monument signs uh illumination on or off 30 minutes oh I didn't thank you uh CL right the monument signage and and the lighting of the wall signage uh would also be uh uh they said that's their practice but we have it in the resolution right it'll be in the resolution that it'll be uh off within uh 30 minutes post closing I second it I I have I have one question with respect to these temporary banners do we have any do we want to um establish some expectation as to when they would go up they said within a month or two a month to make them first uh is two within two months of uh res adoption of resolution which is going to be 30 days prob now anyway yeah that's 9 days 90 days within two months of when adoption of the resolution which is next month which is next month 9 yeah option uh uh if we get it done and adopted next month which I suspect we will uh okay uh temporary banners and the temporary B uh the temporary Banners are going to be the locations and the and the the locations will be on the polls obviously as depicted in the plans and this is an amend site plan approval uh but I take it the the uh banns will be some to those depicted in the uh that is correct plan submitted correct I assume that's certainly what the board was expecting they said they look nice so that's that's the motion that's the second Mr yes yes Mr n yes Mr R yes Murphy yeso yes the Quin yes the flowers yes the B yes rabbit I say already you already got yes make forget you vote for me early thank you thank you very much thank you okay uh moving on to other matters anything from the legislative committee uh we we continue to uh to meet um to discuss the uh Madison Avenue Corridor and uh we're looking for some information from Mr Slate at our next TC TCC meeting that would give us an indication of a particular direction that we might be going in I don't know if it's uh right to reveal it right now uh probably after next uh after next TCC meeting if there's any liability uh okay uh the other item is the we you know Sun distributed the the board of adjustment annual report any comments or thoughts on that say yes we did receive it uh I would like people to think about notice that they're thinking of changing the checklist um and I know the environmental commission has been advocating that they that our checklist be beefed up somewhat I can't hear you I'm sorry I'm sorry um the environmental commission has you know that the board of adjustment has talked about amending their checklist for application approval and the I know the environmental commission has been pushing uh you know increasing ours a little bit so we know what we're deficient what's uh what's what's driving the there's just it's just pretty Bare Bones now I there's a lot more things in there I mean I you know we could look we can they want to model another Town's environmental commission checklist which is U much more comprehensive yeah but is it necessary yes I think so it's certainly worth considering I I think so it may be some future meeting we could have the DC come in who've done a very nice job in their their their reviews of the uh the applications I think and so we could have them come in and talk about make it more far I should know the answer to this maybe but is the same checklist used for the board of adjustment as the planning board son and I were going to look at that another different checklist okay two board but okay so we can leave that for a future meeting we'll see if we can and just on that note I did uh look at our the planning board checklist for these applications and um you know it's it does cover it probably needs a little kind of cleanup but uh it doesn't specifically mention Wetland but it talks about you know wet areas I think there's just some terminology yeah that's Chang I don't know what level they're looking to go to they you know tend to go to extreme right so yeah but I yeah I think it's worth discussion but that's s and I are specifically at the board of adjustment to see if you know sounds like stuff may be missing but yeah okay yeah right okay should I remind it seems to me to be desirable to have the same checklist for both land Sports I I think that would help you also is it I check it but I I thought we well there's some there's some differences but it's usually dependent upon the reliefs thought not the so for example for D variant we're not going to have one board because we can't have D Varian but but there I don't think I've ever seen them different for one board than the other double check yeah okay there is if I may Mr chair there is one other uh I noticed uh recommendation that the board of adjustment was making uh which with respect to planning testimony uh uh for the board to cons for the planning board I guess a governing body uh the two recipients of the annual report to consider and that is uh whether there should be a requirement in the checklist for applicants uh when providing professional planning testimony to have an actual planner report submitted at least 10 days in advance so that the planning testimony isn't a surprise I guess uh at the time of the hearing for the planner or or the board of me you know members of the public to begin with uh that is done in some towns I will tell you as a matter of personal knowledge uh it's also not done in some towns um the uh they don't limit it to D variance requests uh for the board of adjustment this would be so if it were it would only be for the board of adjustment uh planning uh testimony um I've seen it generally I don't know if you've seen generally for more so for for D variant yeah I mean I my own comment on this is most of the municip alties as you are well aware they don't require it's really far more the exception than rules require report submitted uh I know that because I also also advise the zoning board that they and it's not clear in this recommendation that for D variances they're now requiring a a report from the planner which I personally are fine with for this is just my opinion for applicants before the zoning board that are coming in for let's say you know a deck variant or full variant where the applicants are residents I think it's burdensome abolutely to to ask them to have a planner do a report which cost as a planner right it costs more money to do the report and then provide the oral testimon I just don't think it's necessary for a lot of applications if I put on spot do you think it's a d variance is different and I have no issue with that requirement but for a lot of the zoning board stuff it's just an added expense to homeowners in my opinion and uh I did discuss that issue with Dave and I don't know how far he pushed that point because I I too thought uh it was appropriate for de variant but excessive you know for for C variant y uh for that type of thing and then there may even be some Dev variances that are kind of pretty straightforward and um you know maybe the board has you know the board would have the ability to say hey we don't need a formal report you know up up to the uh you know the board of adjustment members on that if it's something you know that you have a dear it's like a technical dear but again to put this into context remind everybody the context this is uh the the Zoning Board of adjustment in their annual report telling the governing body and the planning board the two reant of the report hey based on our experience you might want to consider we recommend you consider an ordinance that does the following and so that's uh one of them so do you want to change the Environmental Protection checklist do you want to uh uh do you want to uh put together an Ord or have an ordinance put together uh whereby at least de Varian for the Zoning Board of adjustment uh the applicant submits a plan is report then in advance that's for your consideration as a result of the annual report I think what happens is and I don't remember I'm you obviously I'm on the board of justment as well and I don't remember having a specific discussion and making it into a recommendation but apparently you did what happens is for a large application takes weeks and weeks to do number of meetings you go through listening to all these different things and then the planner gets up and in one F swoop comes out with a summary of all and you're trying to go through your notes you're trying to remember this you're trying to remember that and I think it would be helpful if you did have the report first if there was a very lengthy sort of application with lot of issues you could be prepared for that fell swop you could really think about all the variance requests and the purposes of that then think of the positive and negative I me a few times I I asked the the when I was a chair I asked the planner or ask the applicant to address planning issues as your Witnesses come up so we're prepared to listen to that when the planner does come up then let do that I I didn't know was think to to remind me of that but I think maybe a written report on a large application like the application might take care of that we'll be more prepared to really think about the summary of all the issues being discussed could it be as simple as a listing of points as opposed to a written report I hadn't thought about the type but I maybe maybe because if you have the point in the positive and negative in front of you before it begins even if they planner changes things around a little bit we'll have a sense of what's going to be discussed so we can be prepared for that so that might be sufficient right I mean the other thing is would sometimes do is they don't require the planning report but it's part of the application as you know they'll require to set forth in the application you know the reasons positive negative criteria that least the board has some flavor and then that's supplemented by the planner when they when the planner gives the verbal testimony for a lot of times do that with applications uh that's something you might you know want to consider as well so at least you have some indication of what's coming um without having to require a you know a planning report for every application before the board yeah you would that that might be perfectly fine for the legislative committee to considerate yeah we need to any more discussion of this go forward on this I don't think we're ready to say anything in specific now right okay uh okay we'll move on um I guess there's no public comments no public make a motion we adjourn they'll close session yeah no close session is there a second second all in favor good I got a chance in second