I'd like to call the order of the special meeting of the Township Board of adjustment uh the legal noce required in accordance with the public open publics act have been satisfied and a statement certifying saying will be executed please uh join me FL flag United States of America to the for it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all Mr Goldberg here Mr here Mr Williams here Mr Shuster here here wooder here Mr Phillips here Mr Fishinger here Mr Hansen here Mr rer here Mr [Laughter] [Music] wer good evening uh Mr a short summary of what we did sure where you're going tonight okay um I'll then I'll go past some of these pleasantries we'll get right to it um you last heard from us on November 27th uh 2023 we did get carried to the December meeting for purposes of scheduling only uh this is our second hearing during the first hearing um you only heard from one witness that was Mr Rusty Scher he's our civil engineer um we did um receive questions from the board of course and the professionals and also questions from the public uh and in response to those questions we made a supplemental submission on January 19th 2024 that submission included a new site plan exhibit an aerial map depicting um nearby reparan zones uh a detailed tree removal and replacement plan we submitted an environmental impact statement and a traffic impact and parking assessment uh we also submitted to the board a letter that we received from the fire chief Michael nun uh approving the revised site plan from a fire perspect uh perspective um we just like to acknowledge that we did receive subsequent to our first meeting a traffic engineering review letter prepared by U brigh view engineering Mr Fishinger um who's here uh and that letter was dated uh January 23 2024 this evening we have four Witnesses um we have the architect John James we have uh we're going to recall Mr Sher briefly to just go over some of the items that we submitted in response to the board's comments uh and the revi and the supplemental um submission we have Carol Huber our landscape architect and we also have um Mr Corey Chase who is our traffic engineer with that Mr chairman we're ready to call our first witness Mr John James would you stand please raise your right hand you strongly swear that the testimony you will give to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God I do would you state your full name and spell your last name uh John W James III j m s and I'm a principle of John James architecture LLC thank you okay uh Mr James um can you just give the board the benefit of your Education and Training please sure I'm a can everyone hear me okay through this mic okay um I'm a principal and a nine-person firm specializing in custom residential and historic preservation work um I have a bachelor's degree in architecture from University of Virginia and a master's from Columbia University in New York I'm registered in New Jersey New York and Connecticut all my licenses are active and up toate I've been a registered architect approximately 45 years um I've been a partner and principal in my firm for over 30 years um most of our work is single family residential but we do clubs churches Civic buildings we've completed approximately 700 projects in the last 30 years okay I'd like to qualify this uh witness as an expert in architecture yes he is okay uh before you get started two things you mentioned in your opening that we had a letter from the fire department yes oh yeah it does yep you happen to have an extra copy we have one extra copy yeah sure yes I'm sure you're G to reference it later but since you mention of it yeah actually so sent it to us because it was the fire performance letter we're not disting that exist so for the just for the record uh Mr chair it's a one sentence can I read it into the record sure sure it's um this is yeah this is dated 11924 to board of adjustment from Chief Michael nun Ray fire department plan review application ba1 1423 eslock it states quote I have reviewed the revised site plans dated 12823 received from the applicant regarding the proposed Carriage Homes at Springbrook eslock I find the revision satisfactory to meet the items outlined regarding fire department access and suppression abilities noted in my previous memo and I would like to put this in the record Let's uh Mark that A3 thank you sir okay sorry to interrupt you no sure no clear one other thing I did say two things um the other thing is and and as you can count there's we only have six me is eligible this evening I doubt very much that we will get to a vote this evening but in any event I to point that out I appreciate it and we'll have a member or members uh read the transcript or listen to the tape and and sign off on that thank you yeah we don't even have our Planner on the agenda for this evening because I am not that ambitious all right um so uh Mr James um did you prepare the plans for this project um yes I did okay it was under my supervision yes thank you sir so we're going to have um the this presentation marked as A4 uh and that's the presentation on the screens is that correct Mr James that's correct okay if you would like plea if you could sir please take the um board in the public through your presentation okay um sorry but one other thing before we have a copy of that already son have a copy of A4 you know she does she has a digital copy of the whole thing yes um I have a paper copy if you want to mark it into the record um we could why don't we do that as well so we'll have a paper copy of it sure this includes a paper copy of the complete slide presentation plus per scaled copies of plans okay they were already presented last November yes [Music] okay [Music] have thank you all right housekeeping done for now thank you okay Mr James okay go ahead thank you um tonight I want to show you a photo presentation that'll give you an overview of the site um it'll give inspiration images for the Carriage Houses that we're proposing and then I'm going to show you specific images from our work that are the basis for the amenities we're proposing and designing for these Carriage Houses and after that I'm going to go through the two Flor plan layouts and the elevations of the Carriage Houses that we prepared um and this is similar to a presentation that I originally did for uh spring bread country club and the developers um first is the site um you can see the view of the site um from the spring brick Country Club it's adjacent to the property but it's also separated from the property this is looking from the clubhouse across the road to the Triangular site you can see this is from the site and the edge of the golf course looking back up to the clubhouse um this is looking along Spring Brook Road and here you're at the 13th tea box um the long row of evergreen trees forms one edge of the new site and the deciduous trees along spring Brick Road form the edge at the road for the site as you move closer you can see how these two sets of trees border the Triangular site and it's much more open on the inside with much smaller trees uphill and from the top where we're thinking we're entering um you can see how open it is and how that provides the borders back to the country club so the conceptual plan that was originally started for this project was taking this triangular site was ringing the houses around the edge and was trying to create a common space in the middle that could have a gazebo or some type of object and you can see here the Long View back from the site up to the golf course and up to the clubhouse itself and then we were concerned about what's really the correct image for this property and um most of the housing in this area was built turn of the century up to maybe the 40s principally in the 20s and 30s and so we felt that our image of Carriage Houses um would be a a really great um idea for this particular property and would be very in keeping with this neighborhood and a Morris toown neighborhood and would be buil based on kind of turn of the century images of shingo style houses and Carriage Houses and so these are some of the images that we presented and we look at as models for the work we're working on this one is painted and stained here's another one that was a model House of the year and Better Homes and Gardens shingle style house would Ro Roes here's a third one with Dormers up on the second floor a nice porch down below um again another shingle style house with Gables balconies some eyebrow Windows um so this is what we were thinking of in terms of our high-minded ideas for these houses and then we wanted to have a community focal point in the middle that could be like a gazebo or an arbor um and that would be in the center of the space and the houses would focus into this and the backyards of the houses would focus to the outside of the um property and back towards those large trees um this is kind of about where the entry would be to the new development looking back up to the country club and I'm going in the wrong direction here I keep going down so there different types of floor plans that we were thinking about for this project and um we're trying to come up with ideas the of Carriage Houses trying to create a more open floor plan for um the interior of the house this is a carriage house we did several years ago that's been opened up to the property became a living in an entertaining space instead of for the actual carriages um here's another one where you have one and a half story uh family rooms with beams other images of shingle Style with low Arbors palladian Windows um Dental moldings up at the top and then interior spaces that give you an open concept here between a kitchen a dining area and looking into the family room so the Interiors would be built more on this type of a feeling here's a uh family room in particular um here's another one one with open kitchen breakfast area adjacent family room with Windows out to the yard um other family rooms with plaum windows at the back you can see how that opens out to a Terrace area um here's a more modern interpretation of the kitchen at the far um dining in the middle and then family room in the foreground here um here's another one as well with the open kitchen large breakfast area and adjacent family room Beyond these are some of the concepts that we're going to be using in various aspects for the houses that we're doing here they're really going to be seen as Carriage Houses and we're thinking of the ideal client is downsizing from another house to come to this property and of this has been more of a retirement stay in place type of community um inside we're going to have dramatic staircases CU we're also keeping a smaller footprint and these houses are going to be built with a basement a first floor and a second floor but there will be some twostory spaces and um nice staircases coming up to the to the various levels of the property so that they still have a a sense of place um and some of the gracious features of previous houses that these owners would have had um primary bed room suites will include some higher ceilings they may include some trusses here's one with a padian window um this one has beam ceilings a very tailored look this one has a bay window um another another one with a um padian window um primary bathroom details would include tubs as well as showers and double vanities um you you'll see uh glass showers and tubs under Windows as well um another concept with the tub primary between the two between the two um sink areas there here's another one that has higher Windows above it um here's a beautiful one with a Skyline View um we don't have the same Skyline views but we have a nice pastoral site and there'll be gracious amenities Within These um houses we're also going to have other nice areas including um nice breakfast rooms with large glass and high glass and transoms um some rooms could be a little bit more of a sunro concept um other people may want a darker paneled Library within their house so the floor plan's made so it could be flexible to accommodate these different types of rooms within the layouts there will be um built-in bars and Butler's Pantry areas um they'll come with mud rooms as well grow to the floor plan and in some cases um they may want to use basements that are built for entertaining where we'll come down to another um Central space in the middle of the basement and then this could include several of the amenities of previous houses um in this case it might include a wine Celler could include a billiard table gas fireplace um one with a ping pong and a mural um others are a little bit more open with light so we're going to have some where there may be some um areas for Windows in the basement as opposed to fully underground um nice fireplace seating area perhaps a home theater um Wine sellers are very popular um and you can see images of all these things from our work that we're going to bring to bear on all of these four plans sometimes the basement is used primarily for exercise we also have a space that's over the garages that could be developed for this as well um as you age exercise becomes a much greater part of your life um and so you can see some of the amenities that could be included for that we will have Elegant entries to these houses beautiful doors there'll be some nice porch areas um railings maybe some copper and metal roofs here's one where the porch extends across this was one of the particular images we liked for the porch fronts on the Carriage Houses themselves um there'll be some nice Gable and bracket details included with it and you can see this is kind of the shingle style Carriage inspiration from some of our previous work here um you can see a carriage style house in the foreground that's connected to the main house in the background um some other shingle styles with the uh bay windows large Gable up up front uh Windows hanging from the cornices um few more images of these and um trim boards around the middle um here's an all white interpretation um here's another one with more gray shingles in a brick base and it's really trying to create the right scale for this new neighborhood and we feel that this kind of one and a half to twostory image with a roof is going to help keep the scale of the houses down and um create the kind of neighborhood effect that we want to have here um so this shows you the carriage houses that were the inspiration for our work and the type of details for what we're doing so let me go through and show you the four plan layouts that we're proposing and there are two different ones this is the first one is the um Jockey Hollow we're calling it and you can see it has an entry porch and a two-car garage up front a nice entry forer we have an open kitchen breakfast and family areas Central to the house and it also has the primary bedroom closet and primary bathroom on this first floor level with a mudroom option and laundry between the garage and the main house up on the second floor excuse me this is the second floor here we have um we're showing two bedrooms and a study could be a bedroom um but we're proposing in most of these houses three to four bedrooms Max it's an optional um um part of the plan the study could be developed as a library we also have a utility and storage room and we have space over the garage for an optional recreational room as well um and then in the basement we have an open basement with mechanical laundry area and the potential for an office or a bedroom down there as well the exterior elevations for this particular model let me show you here this is showing the two-car garage facing the front front and then behind that is the entry and the porch to the house this would be the front facade um you can see the materials are painted white trim we have a mahogany door we have a stone base we have ton shingles and um a wood-looking asphalt shingle roof um we will be doing adaptations to all these houses individually for the owners and so there could be upgrades with um copper detailing and wood roofs Etc depending on the individual client's needs wants and budget um this is the side of the house that shows the side of the garage area where you have the bedroom and the bathroom and the additional bedrooms upstairs um this will be the back of the house um with the um two-story family room in the Central Area there um the bedrooms on the far right and the pair of doors opens out to the yard from the um breakfast dining area and then this would be the other side of the house from The Far Side as well showing the garage on the left the main house on the right and the attic up above um there's um the attic would really be for um mechanical use only at this point it's not an occupiable floor area and then the second set of plans we developed here is we're calling it The Lewis Morris and um this particular plan let me blow it up here for so you can see it better um as opposed to a front entry garage this has a side entry garage and then it has similar aspects to the um previous Port plan in terms of the open kitchen dining uh family area primary bedroom on the first floor you would have um additional bedrooms on the second Flor for there's still an option for recreational space over the garage and it would also be built with a full basement as well that could be finished or unfinished um the elevations for this one you can see it has Windows facing the street as opposed to the garage still has the same Arbor beside has a nice entry porch and then on the side elevation you see the entry to the garage from the side um um the shingles The Gables some of the dentals and the um Diamond detailing at the top of the Gable as well um the back of the house still principally has the large Central Atrium and has the um the entry to the back from The Breakfast room it could be from the back or the side there's several options for the plans here um this is a rendering that was developed um to kind of show the different house plan types you can see a front-facing garage on the left couple of side facing garage um the mat Landscaping of the large Evergreens that are going to be around the property and then we also developed a uh material and sample board showing the asphalt shingle roof the um creamy white trim the stone veneer base and the shingle siding um in our uh plans for the house we're really planning that most of the options will include three and up to four bedrooms we're targeting a client that's looking to downsize um but would like the AG in place um we'll be working with each purchaser to customize their layout within the confines of the footprint that we're showing to you and that's why we're showing a plan that has flexible options for different rooms because that could be based on each individual client um these are going to generally we're going to try to move to more sustainable houses we're going to try to go all electric except for the gas in a gas grill and hot water heaters um there will be a homeowners association with design standards and maintenance so that will have control over the various houses um all the garages will will be pre-wired for with electric charging stations as well um all the homes will be designed to accommodate an elevator so anyone could age in place in these particular houses um we're shooting for them to be energy star um certified they'll have closed cell foam insulation um we're going to be using um high efficiency electric heat pumps for the heating and cooling um we're going to allow for future wiring for solar panels and backup batteries on them as well um and these models are kind of show you what we think is going to be the most popular and then we're going to have um the options that I spoke about before um I've worked with David okono who is one of the developers of this project for over 20 years on many of our custom home projects and we plan on putting putting a lot of the knowledge of those past 20 to 25 years and best practices to Advantage in this project um I think that's it are there any questions thank you Mr J we don't have any other direct questions for Mr James um Mr James um I noticed on your plans the drawings that there's uh like a Gable on the third floor is there any access to that area um right now that it's only planned as a pull down stair for Mechanicals um as opposed to putting several Gables for occupiable space we wanted to have something on the roof as an architectural accent okay so it'll just be a pull downstairs from like access to the hallway or something yes exactly um also I noticed uh that uh on the in the basement you have one uh room labeled as a possible office or slash bedroom right would that comply with the habitability requirements for a bedroom in the state of New Jersey well we would have to have um if you were going to go make it a bedroom it would have to have an egress window for it and that would depend on the particular location on the property so if it was going to be turned into a bedroom we would have to um add a window well for egress for that yes okay so but it could be used is a home office right so if it's built without the uh the window or the second erress then it cannot be a it cannot be a bedroom is that correct that's correct okay now the Evergreen Edge is that is that on Spring Brook's property or that be part of this lot one I'm going to have to go back to Rusty for that I believe that the trees are very very close to the property line and are um going to be maintained okay so that'll be we'll have to go back and refer to his site plan on that but um my understanding is we're not intending to to um take away any of the evergreen trees those are supposed to be maintained as a barrier between the Spring Brook Country Club and the new development and they're one of the major aspects of the site and Mr chair we have a a witness who will testify on the tree removal replacement plan okay so we'll go in detail on that all right um was there any consideration given to any kind of a solar panels on the roofs yes yes we are going to pre-wire for solar panels it's going to again depend on the orientation and roof angles for the properties and the individual purchasers but we are going to um make arrangements so that solar panels could be added in the future for anyone that wanted to do that okay thank you uh board members any questions yes Mr did you have a question you have a question sure thank you um U Mr James um yes so are you're familiar with the uh Township ordinance regarding architectural design standards did you refer to that standard as you were designing these yes okay um specifically I familiar with the design standard regarding front faing garages yes because it seems to me you have three that are side facing and 13 that are front facing and the ordinance wants to discourage front faing garages and will permit it considering other things and I mean I could look at it here but um is there any way you would be able to remove all those front-facing garages and or otherwise meet the criteria for the garage door not being so prominent well one of the things we did to counteract that was to do a carriage style door and to put an arbor type of element that was above that so that what faced the street would be much more pleasing um it's very difficult in a development where you're going to have houses like this closer together to put a garage on the side um and I would say that by Alter ing those we were trying to make it um much more interesting and more varied um and it also reduces the amount of coverage for the site because it reduces the distance into the garage from the street um I think when you compare this to you know kind of like townhouse and other type of developments that would have the garages there or they might have a you know parking area all the way along the back so the garages could be in the back we were trying to make these more of a decorative element on this as a part of um trying to just work with the side efficiency I feel like Carriage style garage doors make a big difference in a street skate versus you know solid hollow metal door or something like that um and I agree with you on that so we're trying to treat it as a decorative element as opposed to a negative but would you say that one of the reasons you could not not make all these side facings because there just isn't enough room on the property to fit 16 homes and have side yeah I think when you're not doing something as a single family lot it's much harder to do that yes yeah okay um Mr Phillips I don't know whether I I'm just springing this on you so um so may take time but in terms of this this is the first application we've had since the ordinance on design tangent was passed so this is kind of new for us um but is there a is there a method for us to go through the ordinance to compare it to to what's being proposed to see to what extent it's being met or is there a way to handle that yeah so I don't know if the rest of the board Public's aware but what you're referring to is that uh probably a year or two ago yeah the uh Township adopted uh certain design guidelines for various residential prototypes as well as commercial retail and uh industrial and they're essentially and they're in chapter 57 they're in site design standards they don't rise to the level of a a zoning standard and they're pretty much guidelines as you said discourages encourages so there is some flexibility depending on the particular context um I think you kind of you know when you asked your question I was listening to the the witness's response I think in this instance um you know given what they're proposing the units are fairly close together I would agree that they don't have the room room the way the layout is at the present time to do either the side loaded garage or maybe even rear loaded garage because the houses at certain points are angled but they're close and I think they're looking for a certain look if I'm hearing the witness correctly and and uh I think he's indicating that the garage is actually in this context part of the decorative element so obviously the board should consider the guidelines that are uh in place in the uh site uh design ordinance um but also uh given the context here uh you know way the applicants expert response in terms of why they felt this was a better option given this particular plan I mean that's how I consider it and I think that's how should view it okay and I do think overall they did a good job with choosing materials and putting dimensions on the buildings and allowing for shade at the windows the the materials and the basic design to me looks very nice um but because it is a new part of the ordinance um one thing that stuck out to me was the side the the front-facing garages because they can be and I think realistically Ed the ordinance in terms of single family was looking at more conventional detached single family that are sitting on their own lot and they and they have the ability given the size and the distance between buildings to do either a side or rear loaded garage so you don't have them front loaded I mean I think that goes without saying that's and I think they're they're basically proposing a different animal here if you will right I understand okay thank I'd also like to point out that in our work and working on a lot of historic houses you find that the older the house it is the closer it is to the street and we work on very many historic houses and historic districts um where front-facing Carriage style doors are an appropriate response to that okay thank you okay any other board members with questions yes yes um just have a quick question Mr James um in your testimony you had mentioned um as you were describing the the the layout of the neighborhood is scaled for the neighborhood were you referring to just the the scale of this particular neighborhood or in the greater context of um really in the greater context um meaning it's a twostory house with a gabled roof above it um it's we're not trying to build a three-story house here or a two and a half story house uh we intentionally have a basement as opposed to trying to have a fully built out attic okay yeah because when I look at sort of like an aerial view holistically of the area surrounding it this in terms of the scale of the neighbor this seems to be a lot more dense than I would say this particular area is a little bit more dense than the single family houses um if you go to the other side of spring brick Country Club and you look at the tow houses or that then this is much less Den than that yes so it's kind I look at it as kind of a halfway point um and trying to create something that's more Scenic a little bit more idilic and creating a little bit more of a kind of a village Enclave atmosphere on a lot that doesn't allow you as much room you know would have been great if we had doubled the space and um and that's why we're trying to focus it inward right in terms of the when you say uh folks are going to be you know downsizing or or moving is that just based on your knowledge and his history of other projects like this I mean they're still they're large houses so what is that based on just your experience that that's based on some of the marketing and the research that developers have done and it's based on really my experience with the 700 projects we've done over the past 30 years and trying to help them this could be this could be someone's initial house I just don't think that's what it's going to be be like this is for someone that wants to um be closer to the country club for instance closer to Morristown um and wants to partake in other things as opposed to having a yard to take care of and all those type of things is more interested in a homeowners association is interested in um design guidelines so that the neighbors um are all fitting with the overall um property and neighborhood and doing something that's taller and has a basement and has an optional elevator allows anyone of any age to age in place so it it it ticks off a lot of things for Baby Boomers who are thinking about retiring that doesn't mean it could not be appropriate for many other clients um when we're designing our houses we really try to look at a layout that would work for anybody from a newly wed all the way up until um aged and infirmed and we're trying to create a house that would do all of that and I'm not saying that it's um but these are not going to be starter houses and also just that's for the purposes of helping educate the board as well have you worked on projects similar to this in scope that are just being sort of put onto one lot versus individual resident Lots um normally this type of property would be more of a group development um I don't do a lot of group developments so this is one of the first ones that we're doing with this concept with them okay thank you very much um and part of the reason I'm doing it with them is that we're are going to be available to work with each individual homeowner to customize their house as opposed to everything's built the same thank you Mr chairman I do have one more question yes could you give us the range of the footprints of the houses yeah yes so the um first floor living space in in is approximately 1536 square feet and the garage is about 575 Square ft and the porch is 135 Square ft um second floor is approximately between 1950 and 2100 square feet and the basement um if it was fully finished could range up to 1536 square feet that's kind of a footprint of the rectangle that include the second floor so if it's just the first floor the first floor would be 1536 plus the garage plus the garage 575 yes porch plus the porch porch of 135 135 like 4,000 square feet right but the footprints 22 I have 2246 based upon that okay and they're all the same that's just to lower end no that is the footprint of all the homes oh yes oh okay yes all right thank you the variations will incur within the footprint right okay thank you any other board members with questions okay you have a question so um Mr James you mentioned a couple of times an association and um and certain design guidelines has there been any thought yet what those design guidelines would be um there's been some but the design guidelines have not been drawn up yet to my understanding um we're working on those but it's going to be along the lines of what I'm presenting to you now in terms of what the material finishes are going to be for the houses so would the unit owner or the association maintain the exterior let me rephrase that would the unit owner be required to maintain anything on the exterior I don't know the answer to that okay okay so but the idea would be that there would be designed standards for the exterior of the house in terms of the finishes that could be used on the house they're not going to be vinyl siding they're going to have to be shingle houses that might be wood shingles Hardy PL blank something like that but it's going to be a higher end material so what's approved would not be alterable by the unit owner um probably not without the association's approval yes okay um and I and I can see where um there would be a concern that after you know these homes let's say the development is approved and you know will these home owners be able to evade you know the kind of materials and finishes we talked about here yeah because you know the pictures are very nice right did a really nice job with your plan but if this were approved based on what we're looking at we would want to be certain that there wouldn't be some changes somewhere and we would of course you know consent or agree to a condition in the resolution where we would um when we're setting the standards for the entire HOA have the involvement of the township um to make sure that we're abiding by what we agreed to here as well as not using anything and materials or designs that weren't um contemplated or approved and and those restrictions would have to be added to the master deed so that they can be enforced by the Association against unit owners makes sense y okay yeah so I also had a question with respect to the the what I'll call the bonus room over the garage yes and and you had a room in the basement both of which are identified as possibly bedrooms is that right uh bonus room over the garage wasn't conceived of as a bedroom I think that would be much more as kind of a recreational area I mean in some sense you may decide that you would do your recreational area over the garage instead of the basement and the basement might be more of a storage room that type of thing um it it it kind of depends on the individual homeowner um so if you were not doing anything over there then we might have a lower one and a half story roof over the garage and what I'm getting at in part two is what's the maximum number of bedrooms per unit it's four so all right so if you had one on the first floor two on the second floor plus that extra wck room right there's three and then potential fourth in the basement is that about right I think you I just I thought there was a possibility of five right there is there is if you use the basement as well that's five I mean especially if you wanted to make everything a bedroom but that's not what we're proposing so and the what I'm getting at is the parking count because if you had five bedroom homes instead of four or six bedroom homes instead of four then you're you know there's definitely going to be a shortage on your parking counts so um I think you would have to agree that an condition if there's an approval that no home could exceed four bedrooms would that be agreeable yeah we'd agree to that how how would that be enforced because somebody could come in and just it's easy to build a bedroom list I I mean every town has uh issues with enforcement and there's garages being turned into bedrooms and I me you know that but we will agree to do it and I don't know honestly sitting here how you would uh and you know you would enforce it like any other if you got a tip or someone called called in and you would go into an inspection and then you would issue a violation but it would be built as a maximum for four bedroom home yes that's our intention absolutely yeah the HOA could also enforce it and if it's anything an indication by these commercials on TV HOA members are very nosy and if they see a college kid living in the basement with two cars out in front they're going to make a phone call and and you're counting the um I notice isn't exactly architectural but since we're talking about the parking versus the bedrooms um the the garage spaces are being counted as parking in your count correct we'll we'll put that to our traffic expert when he comes up I don't want to talk so when when he gets here the question will be right if the garages are counted in your number I understand okay okay thanks that's all I had thank you Mr oler asked the same question I did I had okay yes sir now could you give us the uh the square footage of these two different units please total well the first one was the 1536 575 135 and the second floor was 2100 if fully built out so that would be I'll have to add it up it's 4346 uh but that would not be the habitable area the habitable area you would take out the 575 for the garage and the 135 for the porch and you would get 3636 does that include the optional wreck area over the garage yes okay thank you and then the other one on that would be the Jockey Hollow and the Lewis Morris uh would be similar but the second floor would be smaller at 1950 as opposed to 2100 so it' be 150 square feet smaller thank you any other board members with questions any professionals yes um how would you distinguish or differentiate between a carriage house and a detached single family house Well normally it would be um Carriage House is usually smaller than the main house but I think it's very very hard to distinguish between the two okay um Carriage Houses come in all sizes as do single family houses um you know and and we've worked on various sizes for many it's so it's that's hard to distinguish it's just like seeing how big is a house anything in the design or material treatment that we felt only ask you know so part of the reason let let him finish okay and I just want to be clear for the board and the public you know how you would distinguish that from a detached single family home I mean my sense is it's part of the overall sort of sales pitch for this product here I would say yes it's part of the sales pitch but I would also say that a carriage house has a slightly more informal feeling than the main house and part of the reason we chose shingles and that type of image is that um you would see a lot of cottages Carriage Houses and things like that that might be subsidiary to the main house so that's why it's not a brick and slate roof type of thing I mean historically a carriage house was just that it was a carriage house which is much smaller than the you know the main house and again I was just trying to see how you would distinguish that I just have one other question you mentioned that the floor plans are are intended to be flexible um but I want to be clear and maybe this Frank is more to you that the footprint shown on the plan is is fixed I mean this is not a a subdivision where you would be building a detached single family home and all you'd have to do is stay within the the foot the building envelope footprint I mean we were proposing we're proposing a footprint with interior flexibility yes okay and that I think that was clear from when you went through the floor plans and the renderings but when you showed some earlier examples of style architectural style you did show for example bay windows there were some staggered facades and I just want to be clear that the intent here is that you you would have to stay within the footprint shown on the planes okay I have one more question sure uh you did mention that these uh have the option of an elevator where in the plans would the elevator go I think we would put it in the front um near the powder room where the entry closet is we also might alter the stair slightly and put it in the corner where the stair goes up okay and and Mr James the elevator you're talking about um is not what people think of as a typical elevator right this would be a this would be a resid elevator right so it has like a cur not a curtain but a pole over door yeah it would have a door that closes and it would have a retracting door inside that you hand pull over yes right and board members any other questions this was be for someone that wants more access to all the levels um or someone that might be um impaired has a need operation things like that um we design a lot of our houses with stacked closets for future elevators for clients okay any other board member questions if not I will open it up to the public any members of the public I have one Mr chairman if I may are there any going to be any um accessory buildings or structures sheds any sort of other secondary buildings on on the property or is it the house and the nothing else is a lot we're not planning any secondary buildings the only other thing we talked about was a possible Gazo at the central space but not on for individual houses house isn't going to have a shatter not have a tool shed or anything like that okay yes sir evening Mr chairman MERS of board professionals and staff my name is Robert mcer I'm attorney with the law firm of St King uh we represent a group of residents that reside in the area that list has been uh submitted and is on F secretary I appreciate the comments and questions and answers can I interrupt you for a second that that just brings me to uh Point did the board of members all review that list of clients that were provided do you have it because if anybody has a conflict based on that list I want to make sure it's known why don't we take a second and just pass that around sorry I didn't do that at the beginning but I just want to get it done it was marked as 01 that list yeah we're going but this list is a little different so I think when it comes back under the mark this is 02 it's been updated we'll mark this one us out too yeah okay getop see there's any uh conflict of interest yeah family member uh oh no I'm just kidding and what's the criteria I'm sorry family member yeah family member get out of this sorry label mine okay thank you okay you can proceed thank many questions I a question are you familiar with theage between proposed homes um if you look at the site plan I think it shows the minimum distance of 15 ft between houses that only occurs in a couple of cases I would say the the average distance between the house is closer to 25 ft um sometimes it ranges as high as 45 feet um and the distance between the front garages um gets closer to that 45 to 55 ft there a couple that are like 65 you're going to find this is not a straight road with all parallel houses so there's not a fixed point and usually if there's a smaller Dimension the houses are angled so there's a large Dimension as well um so yes it varies throughout but the average is probably closer to 25 I think it's certainly much greater than the adjacent developments that are um around the golf course um this is not a single family proposal [Music] and thatx and style um I think if you were depend totally depends on the lot configuration Z I work on houses that are this size that are three feet apart um in historical districts um so no I wouldn't say that this is unusual for a house of this size to have 25 fet as an average separation and can you confirm that you yourself did not independently perform any studies or analysis uh for particular I object to that I don't know what you're asking I'm asking if your architect any analysis or study to determine whether there was a need for this house I think that dils with one of the comments one of the board members well a need study I'm not I've ever heard that I'll let them answer to can okay I just never heard of a need study like that but go ahead we don't normally do marketing studies for our clients um that's normally done by an independent research firm um I would certainly say um that we feel like there's a strong demand for this product yes and Mr J specifically what characteristics of your of the proposed homes that you designed contend consistent with I certainly think the character and detail of the houses is very similar to what's built in the midcentury and before all of these houses have his historical references and connotations um and I feel like that makes it much more fitting in the Morristown neighborhood and particular particularly what's around the golf course at this point as well um the materials that are used here are certainly equivalent to anything within a few mile radius um of the golf course yes and given the proximity to homes to uh one another uh was privacy a concern or did you incorporate that into your design um we feel like these homes are going to be very private inside uh in other words side sides of the house window that no we still have Windows because they're not they're not parallel and very very tight together um they're spaced uh part appropriately um they've not been set totally parallel between each other so that there's more interest and variety because the distance between the houses varies as opposed to being a straight line um there's also topographical differences in the houses raised and lowered on the site um and the materials and the details around the window still offer privacy um 25 foot distance between houses is not uncommon in many residential areas uh and my last question the uh the homes uh are directly viewable from the country the homes are screened by the trees that surround the property and from the country club dining room in the winter if you're looking through only deciduous trees you probably see it a little bit more than you do in the springtime much like your neighbor's house next door anywhere in America other members of the public with questions yes yes Mr Schillings in Spring neighborhood um just had a couple fall off questions for Mr James first of all can you put up on the screen the actual elevation look of what these Townes look like see let me see the I ran an engineered Products Manufacturing company so and I'm not up on all this zoning business but I lived in the spring D for 40 years and I just B some of your Pi tutorial things concept from which we drew from were were so beautiful and elaborate um reflect some of the homes in our neighborhood reflect some Shore Homes and then you come up with this and uh and you've come up with a square footage of 3500 to 4,000 now this attorney asked you the question in our neighborhood 15 ft closest up to 35 40 ft separating 3500 to 4,000 ft homes in our neighborhood is this a typical to the environment of our neighborhood now you you constantly bring up the town hous is off 202 on the other side let's go into the spring neighborhood Springer Road Armstrong Road uh where we have beautiful wellestablished homes sprintr is a beautiful area in our Township all has how does this cluster or this closeness compare with the rest of the neighborhood have you actually driven we need let him answer a question um I have driven around the neighborhood yes and we've done work in mois Township mois town all around this area um these houses are closer together than individual single family lots um but they're not uncommonly close together and they're spaced in a um more Scenic Way rather than being cookie cutter uniform roads parallel to everything and we're trying to create an environment that focuses inside so that we're creating a small community in this particular property and we're trying to work within the confines of the existing topography the shape of the lot and all of the mature trees that are there to come up with a concept that makes this appropriate for this area well I appreciate that effort because and kind of reflecting our neighborhood and our community trying to make this if uh you you had a pictorial of sweeping staircases is that how it's going to have a sweeping staircase well this house has a nice staircase that starts with let let him let him you ask the question let him answer the question one one question at a time a few staircases that curved up and went up to the top floor and if you look at this one this starts with stop let him answer the question you've got to let them answer the question and then you can ask your next question I mean I think this is a great staircase when we finish it it'll be beautiful and you come down and it has exposed NES um that curve out on both sides it has a rounded uh portion at the bottom stair it goes up to a nice landing comes up to another landing and then goes up to the second floor has open railings and spaces up to the second floor over top of the great room here we have a double height balcony that looks down and back to the staircase um yes it's going to be like some of the photos it's not going to be exactly one of the ones I showed you was curved as opposed to rectangular um and we're here presenting a concept for all of these houses um to you for approval and then we're going to work with particular owners on developing the Interiors of each one of these houses and I would expect them to be of the quality and the character of the photographs we showed yes yes that's why we're working on the project um you yes okay I guess my concept is to lay people looking at the sweetening beautiful pictures and then looking at an actual architectural drawing here I can't see I can't visualize that I appreciate the memb comment over here about Mr Schilling there's got to be questions right not not uh no you have opportunity to speak at the end at the end yes so um I wanted i' like to ask another question about these front facing garages of the 16 homes how many of the homes will have front facing um 13 our front facing and your side many 16 I'll address that on my closing but that seem to be I hear the things about carage do and stuff here we go it's a question and answer got ask a question a question so you you pretty much projected square footage of these 16and 3600 a little over 4,000 I'm just was curious do you know how those 16 new homes would compare with with the established neighborhood it really varies by house and by the size of the line what would you consider that size home and 16 of them to be on the larger size homes of our neighborhood they're probably in the upper half yes one question you brought up the and I don't know if this is a question for you that we ask it later is there any way we can build into the contract that if inde those beautiful tree lines that provide a between the and don't survive that would be the um Association would have to take under take that obligation that by that time the um developer will probably be no no it would have to be it would be if it was be done it would be done as being mandatory in their bylaws that they would do it it' be it' be a restriction in the approval okay that's all I have to know yes sir your name good evening Richard deangel La firm 236 LLC the owner of that LLC property on the other side of project really didn't intend to ask a question of the architect said something a few moments ago sir in response to Mr Schilling's question regarding his development as compared to the other said please correct me I'm incorrect this [Music] this post project these homes are not quote uncommonly close together you PA saying that yes okay but this is the first time you've ever developed a project like this ConEd that earlier in Testament correct I said that this is not the main thing that we do we mostly work on individual houses have you ever developed a like this not of 16 houses like this this is a new development for us you've asked that already gave you an answer you absolutely asked that you asked it let let a question we can we can take it into a I'm sorry so you really don't have any bomes well if I base it on my experience over the last 42 years and the 700 houses and the 700 neighborhoods we've worked in and the places I've lived and the historic projects that we've worked on these houses are not uncommonly close together I I stand by that ask again already excuse me sir he answered the question B on his experience uh it might not be the answer you like but that's what he's answered so how about as comp this neighborh what specific are you basing this in this neighborh one more time the last time I think we're going to have more testimony later on by our planner in terms of sizes of houses in the neighborhood and how this compares to that so rather than me aine about that I think that's the appropriate time for the question but there are many houses in the neighborhood that are four to 5,000 square feet so a 3600 squ foot house compared to that is not out of ordinary for this neighborhood no thank you Mr chair you're welcome any other members of the public with questions yes yes we showed two floor plans for the project and we expect to work with individual homeowners to develop um very ations on these plans and options and different window details and different treatments and things like that we expect the footprint to stay the same but we expect the variations within the units to give us ample ability to keep this from being 16 houses that look alike we are GNA be working with each individual homeowner to develop this plan for them yes a carriage house was historically um where the carriages were and where the drivers later on lived above so it would have been where either your carriages your horses or your early cars were stored and it would have normally had living ERS above it well we're using that imagery for these homes and we're trying to create something that is in that vein um yes I've seen Carriage homes in several places I'm working on several Carriage homes now we've built and rebuilt several Carriage homes um Carriage homes very often get turned into regular homes and uh we work on a lot of those as well and we felt that Carriage homes um in terms of dealing with the developers and using that nomenclature was a proper definition of what we were trying to shoot for here which was a downsized home um for people that want to age in place and I I still think that's a good strategy and a good description of what we're trying to accomplish I'm sorry is this project age um I don't think it's age restricted no thank you I'd like to ask um a followup to the witness based on some of these questions is that okay finish the public portion sure any other members of the public with questions if not I'll close the public portion may ask your questions Mr James you've had a couple questions about Carriage Houses definitions of Carriage Houses Etc um is um did you use the term Carriage House on these plans to deceive the public or the township as to the size of these houses no yeah and in fact sir was it hidden or did we um not disclose what the size of the homes were in our plans no it's dis so everybody is aware what the size of these homes are correct yes okay that's all thank you Mr chair you're welcome and i' I'd also like to add I'm currently working on two Carriage houses that are larger than this just thank you FYI okay board members any other questions professionals any other questions I do have one more question okay Mr um I know later on we're going to be hearing from the landscape architect um on this project but you did mention things like the topography the size of the lot the mature trees um you reference them um this board we have a report from our environmental commission um which sort of as they took a look at and wrot assessed it was thinking in terms of the mature trees you know if the if the project was reduced by maybe two two home lot two homes that more of those mature trees could be preserved and I know we'll get into this with the landscape Arch but just from an architecture is there anything you can comment on in terms from an architectural perspective if if it was reduced by two homes the spacing and them would it be more architecturally pleasing and an experience to drive through in terms of the reason I showed the initial um photographs of the um evergreen trees and the deciduous trees along the edge of the property was because I felt that those were the dominant trees and I feel like most of those are going to be maintained period no matter how many houses you have on the property um because they are at the perimeter they provide the screening and they Define the provide the defining edges for the property and you have mature trees on the bottom two portions of the triangle downhill and the hill is what provides the Privacy going up the hill the topography um so I would say that most those are the predominant trees um that we would want to save and that um create this as kind of a separate enclave and we're instrumental in how we thought about the site to begin with um and then you would be adding additional plantings and things under those trees um one or two houses is going to make any difference um because what you're trying to do is maintain that border and design the houses around that on the inside thank you thank you okay Mr chairman I just have a question um these slides some are representative of what they're proposing and some are of the neighborhood are we going to get some is that is that going to be included as part of the their testimony and are we going to be able to view these or the slide these this series of slides we that's been marked in evidence we do have a hard copy and there is a uh uh a digital digital copy copy you we don't need all those slides right he T of slides on no but we have a digital copy entire present hard copy and a digital copy both and they were submitted in November are you referring to these that's the hard copy plan we have this hard copy sitting right here oh okay all right thank you okay good any other questions to board by board members or professionals see none why don't we take the five minute break and then we'll come back thank you this meeting is being recorded again make sure everybody's here yes Mr chairman um Mr Goldberg yes here Mr tractenberg yes Mr Williams here Mr Schuster here Mr benois here Mr Kramer here let the record reflect that Mr Kramer arrived at 7 18 Mr Woodford here Mr Hansen here Mr Phillips here Mr Fishinger here Mr oler here and I Sonia Santiago here okay so I just want to get back to Mr Kramer one second now you mentioned that Sonia thank you so we were maybe 15 or 10 minutes into the um into the application so you will need to listen to the tape or read the transcript for the time you were in here I good do day thank you and there will be a test it mostly housekeeping items but sure yeah okay next witness thank you Mr Shar we would like to call recall Rusty Scher Mr Scher would you stand raise your right hand I know we sore you before but we'll do it again do you solemly swear that the testimony you will give to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so hope you got thank you thank okay Mr Sher good evening um you have prepared um a couple uh exhibits here the first of which is a uh site plan exhibit and I'm going to ask that this be marked A5 Mr all is that A5 yes so could you please pull that up for the board sure okay sir um we're going to go over some of the comments that we received uh in the traffic review and also some other comments we received from board members is this part of the additional package that was submitted this was yes and which um exhibited part of the package is it this is entitled site plan exhibit the one entitled site plan exhibit okay what's the sheet number the sheet number 2.0 correct correct so uh I got I got one I I have large copy I want all right so again Frank just for the record we're marking A5 which is sheet CS 2.0 and the sheet title is site plan exhibit correct and that's what's up on the screen yes okay okay Mr shmer um there was a traffic review comment number six um and it related to the way a fir Tru navigates the site um and the comment was that it's generally acceptable but there was a question about how the truck can navigate the turn around the area across from unit number two so could you just um explain um what this drawing shows and how a truck would navigate in such a way sure so what uh we had had a meeting with the fire chief uh in uh on January 12th um and uh because he had provided a prior um report and in that meeting we discussed uh some adjustments to the plan and he wanted to we wanted to demonstrate the maneuverability of a fir Tru what this exhibit shows among other things uh is in red you see uh and so you see the um red outline of using the fire truck uh template turning template uh provided by the fire department uh we show The Turning Maneuvers the maneuverability of the fire truck uh how it enters um and how it can go around the island that that's in the uh in the center and then at the end uh in response to the fire chief's comment we actually made the backup area that we had there we made it larger uh to allow fire truck to back in and maneuver around uh we reviewed the dimensions of that turnaround area with the fire chief uh and provided the fire chief subsequently with a plan which was identical to this in terms of the layout shown for the turning movements uh and so forth um and uh and really the the concern or the what the fire chief wanted to be able to achieve at the end was be able to have a truck uh turnaround at the end um and while it's not you're not going to make a full you know Loop type of system to be the ability to uh pull back pull forward pull back if you need to uh but have the room for trucks to uh to be able to turn around at the end was what he requested and we reviewed the dimensions and he looked at this and then subsequently issued the letter that that you have a copy of um and I know there was another comment um and we don't show it here but another comment actually that came from the the board's traffic consultant about entering into the site and you don't you don't show actually the Turning movement entering into the property off of a Spring Brook Road but we did look at that and looked at the templates and uh and that uh that fits the fire truck can enter and exit the uh the site adequately and Mr Scher if if need be we could submit a truck turning um sketch for that Mo movement correct we could sure okay and we will if if that if the board desires U Mr Sher um could you confirm that all the refuse collection uh snow and leaf removal will be handled by the homeowners association yes it will okay and I assume um the client will contract with a qualified insured service provider for those Services I'm sure they will and that the uh equipment used will be appropriately sized for the site correct okay are there any potential areas on the site for snow and leaf uh storage uh there's some areas [Music] um you get up and point to the screen I guess yeah I suppose so probably you may use the microphone the wireless one sure yeah I think it's on yeah yeah it's on so um I mean basically uh placement for snow would be uh at the along the edge of the roadway um there's some areas you know the island uh between where there are there are um driveways uh between some of the units um and and as I say you know along the edge we have a sidewalk on this Edge but basically the green areas the grass areas adjacent to the uh roadway um is primarily where youd first put Snow if we get that much of a snowfall and there's no more space on site to put it then it would be necessary to to have it loaded up and carted away is always an option but uh there are spaces on the site distributed throughout like you'd see in many single family home areas okay and Switching gears a little bit Mr um Scher there was a comment or question about site triangles for this site in particular um with respect to Springbrook Road and our new road a yes um did you look at the sight lines uh at these intersections and do you have any did you come to any conclusions on on that the the sidelines are good Spring Brook Road is straight along this section sight lines are available um and uh I know this was a comment we got recently in the in the Traffic Engineers report uh if requested we can provide site uh sight lines lines of sight uh along springb Road from the new entrance Road okay Mr Sher there was in traffic comment 8 a question about Gore striping first what's Gore striping uh well that's in the area where right at the entrance we have an island uh so it's divided and you can see there's some uh uh some striping um in that area and the comment was simply that it' be uh compliant with the uh manual and uniform traffic control devices the mutcd and yes it will be okay there was also a question about um the rsis requirement and there were two issues there the first was respect with respect to the driveway widths of 20 feet um I understand there is uh certain units do meet that but I believe there's four units that do not is that correct right there's four units identified that weren't quite uh 20 ft wide uh um they are wide enough for uh um for entry and exit certainly um but uh where they it's the deeper deeper units uh where you'd be driving in and then turning to pull into the garage uh so to the extent that uh we would need a dominous exception from the rsis standard that would be part of our request okay which units can you identify sure um units 3 4 13 and 16 okay and Sir there's a another um rsis issue that was identified in um in connection with a 20 foot wide cart way correct um and we're also looking for a the Minimus exception as well could you just explain to the board what that involves sure the the width of the new Private Road uh is at 20 feet wide and we had testified to this at the last meeting but it's a 20 foot wide Road um and uh that would require di Minimus exception from the rsis we have used this 20 foot wide standard in other projects within the township um a good example of that is James Place uh which I think was 92 units uh on James Street uh and we had a similar design um uh where we had a 20- foot wide cartway sidewalk uh and so it was very similar to this uh uh with some parking along the street uh some visitor parking spaces that we have similar to here so that was a good example of a design that has been functioning well um did you just say uh what was the location of 20 foot wide uh where was that yes it's a it's a development called James Place okay on James Street does board memb might want to go out and just sure take a look at it might want to go out and take a look at it it's a good example of that yes and and it allows us to have a little less cartway width uh which allows less impervious coverage 20 ft is adequate for two-way traffic certainly um and this is even a a less dense less uh um fewer units than that project okay Mr Sher there was in traffic review comments three and five uh a question about a the um potential limited utility of the sidewalk since it's interrupted by parking spaces and the recommendation was that we extend uh the sidewalk across the driveways of the units in question and I'll identify them units 12 and 13 and 13 and 14 so it's actually just 12 13 and 14 um nonetheless sir um is that something that we would agree to do we could we could do that we could make a modification um to allow the the sidewalk um to extend across those those areas Frank sorry but that would apply at 15 and 16 also correct I'm going to ask Mr schmer that um that would be those numbers the sidewalk across the um yeah this where where is basically where we have the um parking spaces uh and the sidewalk comes up to the side of the parking spaces yeah um so Mr Mr Fishinger we got this from your report yeah that's why I was saying maybe I can clarify there's actually two different concerns right the between the the first concern was where the the perpendicular parking is that the the sidewalk if someone's parked there and you just walked in a straight line you'd be walking into the car and then as it generally speaking along the entire I guess Eastern side where there is a sidewalk the way I'm reading understanding the plans the as you have an asphalt driveway right out to the road my recommendation that the concrete sidewalk continue with a traditional concrete apron so that the sidewalk grade stays level and instead of coming up and down for driveways so that the sidewalk looks like a constant sidewalk so you don't have a slant to slant and just from a visually that the sidewalk is Con rete and goes straight through instead of it being concrete asphalt concrete asphalt at every driveway so they're two different understood comments yeah we we understood and and we could uh adjust the plans to uh be consistent with your recommendation on both of those counts both of those items okay thank you Mr Sher um let's turn to lighting um during the last hearing there was a comment about uh the one light we're proposing on a single mounted pole um well that be dark sky compliant yes yeah and we have a note on the plans indicating that lights will be dark sky compliant okay and with respect to the remaining uh lights on the site they'll be limited to the individual homes and regulated by the HOA Master deed correct that's correct okay sir you prepared an Environ uh your office prepared an environmental impact statement uh that was submitted to the board uh I just want to ask you just a couple questions about that uh to confirm sir there are currently no storm water controls on the project site that control runoff is that correct that's correct okay and for this proposed pro project a new storm water management system has been designed in accordance with the best management practices that meets NJ D's requirements is that correct that's correct okay it follows then sir that storm order management will be improved not exacerbated by the project is that right so and we do an analysis uh as we do for every project regarding storm water management looking at existing conditions uh and then proposed conditions and then uh like other projects we uh designed and implemented a storm water management system here um for collection treatment of storm water runoffs so that uh when we compare the uh proposed conditions to existing conditions we have less Peak flow of runoff uh we meet the groundwater recharge requirements and water qual quality uh treatment requirements uh in accordance with the New Jersey D storm water management rules um and that applies here because U the project technically qualifies as a major development under the storm water management rules so the storm water management report that we prepared and submitted uh was done in compliance with those requirements okay thank you Mr shmer um I'd like to show this witness what I'm going to have marked as A6 this is a plan titled area map with reparan zones um the sheet number is CS 3.0 uh Mr Sher if you could bring that exhibit up yes okay sir um you met with the environmental Commission of Morris Township to discuss their comments on this project is that correct we did yes okay based on your field investigation does the project site contain any areas of freshwater Wetlands no it does not we did an site investigation some time ago and uh did not find any Wetlands um I we looked at the environmental potential issues on the site as part of our normal uh due diligence um so uh we don't have any uh any W Wetlands on site to be concerned with okay and will our project result in any disturbance to freshwater wetlands or Wetlands transition areas in other areas is of these properties no okay thank you sir that's all I have for Mr Scher this evening and we open uh to board questions thank you you want to look at this init discuss this init no okay uh Mr shelmer um you've got the um on the Cs 2.0 I guess you have the uh diagrams of the um of the uh fire truck being able to uh basically make a reverse K turn to pull out is that correct at the end of the road yes Road um the diagram shows the truck entering up onto that driveway what would happen if there is a car is parked in that driveway uh they might have to make an extra extra turn uh to back around and um did you discuss that with the fire chief at all that was not uh that was not discussed with the fire chief okay um and the area where they back into is that going to be a No Parking Zone yes that's that's a it's reserved specifically for a turnaround area and we actually had that on the plans previously right we enlarged it as a result of our discussion with the fire chief how how much did you enlarge it uh we may yeah I'm going to say probably about 10 feet maybe maybe 10t deeper and a little wider but I'm not I don't have the exact dimensions in front of me but we did have it an area there and we made it wider and deeper to address the fire chief's uh concerns about turning around and having space there to pull into did you talk to the uh Chief about uh if there's a car park in that area where the diagram is you discuss that specific situation with it if there's a car parked the uh in that driveway oh in the in that driveway at the end you mentioned yes uh in unit one yes yeah you you asked that no we didn't talk about that specifically okay um how is the uh no parking in the turnaround area going to be enforced well there will be signage there uh indicating it's no parking it's for emergency use only uh and that would be an enforcement by the HOA uh to to have no parking there and would that include Towing it certainly can yes um how the I'm looking at the U the plans here and uh at unit 12 got a 20 foot wide driveway but how long is that uh driveway out to the sidewalk not to the street but to the sidewalk um the depth of depth of the um depth of the driveway yeah how long is it uh I'd have to scale it to be sure um I'm concerned let me tell you my concern my concern is that with a car park there it's going to extend into the sidewalk right so when we we can adjust the sidewalk and bring the sidewalk adjacent to the uh um adjacent to the curve line essentially um but we'll we'll look at that and have space can can you let me know uh how long that driveway is cuz that that's a real concern you do it right now I just scaled it uh on the inside of the uh on the inside of the curve it's 20 feet on the outside of the curve it is 25 ft so on the inside curb you have two cars in that driveway and you're not going to put it right at the cars right up against the um right up against the garage door right uh uh how much PL say it's three four feet from the d garage door will it be extending into the sidewalk it's hard to say what size car well uh SUV like everybody else drives Mr chairman if I may you look at a typical parking stall is 9 by8 and the car itself is probably about 16 feet 15 or 16 feet so there's sounds like there'd be some room there's not a lot of room but if there's 20 ft a car a typical car would be able to park in it so Mr chairman we'll look at that um of course we want to have sidewalks that people can walk on and that'll be part of our the success of our development so we're not going to have cars Block in the sidewalk so it's a good question and you know we'll uh we'll definitely get back to you on how that all is going to work um you were talking about snow removal and you said the first order would be pushing up against the side of the the roadway up on the grass right correct typically a plow is going to push it off to the side it would push it off behind the curbing yes right and so would that impact the sidewalk well on well the sidewalk would need to be kept clear on that side so it would have to go beyond the then beyond the sidewalk into the lawn areas um on the other side of the sidewalk okay and um typically a plow doesn't go right up to the curb and scrape along the curb so there's usually some out into the roadway a couple of feet correct uh here we have uh we have battered curbing here so I mean you can go pretty much up to the curb and and push it over uh onto the onto the side so um you have to maintain certainly traveled way so you have to have enough space for two cars to pass by so it'' be pushed off to the side to maintain that and what about the parking spaces that are shown on the plan would they be cleared also they would have to be cleared also yes U my qu I've got a question on the parking spaces if I can go back to that um say like this project was in existence these houses were there and three people decide to hold a Super Bowl party three houses decide to hold Super Bowl Pary where's everybody going to park uh they may have to park offsite and get uh and get rides here you know car share what have you uh but you know there's not uh you can't have parking all along the street here um so they'd have to make accommodations for that like anywhere where you have limited parking areas uh you have to you have to account for that and make accommodations for that I I most people aren't going to go park off site they're going to pull up stop on the street so they couldn't find anything and come on in you realize that him being human nature and we have to deal with human nature not just rules regulations so how are we going to account for that that would be again the HOA is going to be uh owning and maintaining the infrastructure the private road so that would really be an Enforcement issue uh there um in those times by the HOA you say dark sky compant can you just explain that for the public they might not know what that means it's uh uh it's sort of a designation um uh regarding keeping light levels uh so that they are shining downward so we don't have light shining upward so we don't have unnecessary light shining outward and upward for example um so it's lights are designed so that the light uh illumination is directed where you want it and where you need it uh and not just broadcasting out uh so you wouldn't have spotlights you know and so forth which just shine out uh indiscriminately uh dark sky compliant lights uh will really they're focus on lighting the areas you want uh so you don't have lights shining up and so forth so there are designations for it uh you can select light fixtures that are designed to be dark sky compliant uh and that's what we've done here with the couple of uh lights along the street that we've proposed and then again since you have an HOA which which can and will um uh control the type of lighting on the individual units that actually gives you much better control than say a single family home subdivision where everybody does their own light here it can be controlled and monitored and and regulated by the HOA so the light fixers would we saying that they would be dark sky compliant uh to to all to meet that requirement board members any questions yeah yes could you tell us what the dimensions are of those guest parking spots they're 9 by 18 does that include the sidewalk well as we said earlier in response to uh Mr Fisher's comment in his review memo uh that we would be pulling those back so that now they're going to be deeper so that we can maintain the sidewalk when you say deeper you have you reached a dimension yet well not yet but they'd be pulled far farther forward so that the sidewalk passes behind the Cars started thanks I also have a question about the park I don't know you're the right person I talk to so it looks like the only official entrance to that Park is through the easement is that correct there's the driveway that comes in uh uh that easement is to the neighbor uh but that driveway that comes in uh that's that's the entrance into the park um we also wanted to show actually we added on this exhibit um in response to some comments the sidewalk that runs adjacent to Spring Brook Road we extended it uh to the right side as we look at the plan and so that it runs the length of Spring Brook of our Frontage on Spring Brook Road and then crosses uh uh across the front edge on Spring Brook Road and then that accesses provides an access into the park as well a pedestrian access and that's that's open to the general public correct yes it is okay so do people have permission to go down that easement roadway which people anyone who wants to get into the park well the the land this land is part of this project and this development so the EAS the easement is for the benefit of the neighbor there's an easement there today for the benefit of the neighbor on lot seven which is uh to the just below the park uh so that's an existing access easement we're actually widening that and improving that access but maintaining an access the easement is for that neighbor but that uh the property itself is part of uh the Parkland and part of this project uh so yes it it is opened for Access thank you so excuse me but Ry along the same lines as that then the the sidewalk that you're talking about that runs parallel to Spring Brook Road would be maintained by the association yes it would be and the sidewalk as it goes into the park same situation yes correct all all maintained by the Association right so then the developer would agree to a condition if there's an approval that those sidewalks would be open and to the public and maintained by the association yes um I mean there's going to be I think um hours that the passes Park will not like after dark so um but maintain yes correct at all times right but the sidewalk is a private sidewalk it's within assciation property correct so there would have to be a public easement in your master deed that allowed that access yes correct yes any other questions yes chairman um on that point Rich does that mean it'll be a public path for anyone in the neighborhood who wants to get to the par anyone even outside of the neighborhood yes yes okay all right thank you I wasn't sure understood that um so would there be parking along that eement for people who want to drive in to get to that Park no parking there's no parking correct it be signed saying no entrance but the park itself will be available to the whole neighborhood correct okay anybody um so on the fire truck so you're showing here that a fir truck can turn around what happens if there's like a fire and there's two fire trucks and an ambulance and two police cars and and everyone's scrambling up there because of the emergency how is that handled not unlike anywhere else uh where you've got say a culdesac road where you have emergency vehicles uh they drive in uh get into position the the leaving the departing is is typically uh something of less urgency um but the uh fire department uh coordinates and and access is done not unlike like I said other culdesac streets other other developments the the concern that was raised by the fire chief uh was the their vehicle and there theirs is the largest vehicle uh so we looked at that uh to make sure that that they were satisfied that they could get in maneuver uh and exit Okay I could just imagine if you know you need two or three fire trucks and there's emergency going on and they're trying to cram themselves into there with an ambulance and stuff it would be could be very difficult yeah we we did get the fire department's approval I understand that yeah yeah um so I don't know what thought okay um on the roadway 20 feet I guess this is a question for Mr Hansen is is that a typical residential size Road I mean it seems to be most residential size roads I've seen there's usually room for one on one side for parking if not on both sides R standards allow 20 foot Road for low density this is considered low density um you got James Place over at the intersection of South Gate and James Street those are all 20 foot roads no parking on the street we Chief Farms on deor drive at cadina those are 20 foot roads okay there's no problems with traffic or anything of that nature even with today's Amazon van park in the street because he's delivering something cars can still go around the van and and continue on your way in this instance it's a big c to set those other roads are through but it's no different it meets it meets the standards for low density and this will classify okay thank you Dave do they have sidewalks um uh we she does not I don't know about James Place the reason I ask is when you plow this road well should there be a minimum distance from the curb line to the sidewalk because when you plow the road you're going to plow over the sidewalk even are designs for for Road reconstruction that the township does for various roads sometimes it's two feet sometimes it's three feet it ends up on the sidewalk and the sidewalks got to get shoveled anyway then it gets put on the lawn side of the sidewalk um is there a standard width that the township has for its own own regular roads as far as a minor uh Road such like you know pavement has to be 30 foot wide or most of the streets that we reconstruct are either 26 or 30 fet and we're reconstructing in place and in some instances we're we're putting the sidewalk in either 2 feet or 3T behind the curb uh we don't have a standard because the width is uh um is generated by um vehicle traffic and the need for parking sometimes we only allow parking on one side of the street so we generally go along with the rsis standard so Joe is it a the Minimus exception for the 20 feet in this case that it is the way I'm reading RSI it is because of the par the parking stalls that RSI says with a perpendicular parking stall you need a minimum of 24 feet so in order since they're only proposing 20 they they I believe they said they would request the Dom Minimus exception so it's the reason that they need the exception is because they have the the perpendic parking along with the road if they didn't if they had accommod ated the visitor parking some other way they wouldn't need the exception strictly based on the width of the road okay that's all I have can I ask another sure so Russy just want to get back to your uh turning template for the fire Tru yes right so as Mr Woodford pointed out that template shows the fire truck going into probably about halfway the driveway for unit number one in order to make that turn and and you indicated you didn't discuss that with the fire chief that didn't come up correct in my mind that's kind of like an open item yet then I I think that discussion should take place and the chief should specifically say that he's okay with that or not okay that okay sure okay we can we can go back if you have a car park there I don't see how you make that turn I mean unless there's a different template that you have that's going to show them that it works but or you need like I said to make an additional point in your turn you know but that's that's departing right can yeah I think in reality what would happen is he'd go right up behind it and put the reverse on that car would get out of the way I think he would push the car out of the Way's on fire nothing gets in their way nothing gets in and I was thinking this the firehouse is 20 feet away from this property they are getting I mean if we can't put out of fire within 20 feet of fire we got bigger problems than the roadways okay any other board members questions Mr Gold I do yes um Mr Sher in uh the section five the project Alternatives of the environmental impact statement um you call out and say the highdensity multif family housing is not being considered by the current applicant which is understandable um when I look at the plans I view it's not high density multif family housing but it's just high density housing in general um so can you just point out why that that was called out or that distinction was made as part of the project alternatives section well I simply wanted to point out that uh that's was not not what was proposed here and this is single family these are single family homes not it's not a single family home subdivision um but there single family homes 16 are all on one lot as we say uh the multifam townhouse type development was something uh that quite honestly uh We've looked at um and and has been discarded by this applicant so um I just wanted to mention that you know that had been considered uh in the course of what can be done here looking at Alternatives uh but that's not being considered here okay thank you but but you would agree that it is high density single family homes How would how would you characterize it I would characterize it as single family home single family homes okay thank you um the project alternative section also says the alternative of no develop element is not feasible for the property owner um would you happen to be aware if there's an a modified development or just I mean if no development is not an option and is as it is this is I mean this is the plan you're putting forward it's vacant land um we're putting it to uh a use and a utility um it's unused it's been used historically for uh miscellaneous parking utility trucks uh storage staging areas so it's really uh largely unused vacant land and we we're putting it to some appropriate use in our opinion okay thank you um in terms of the snow removal that was mentioned I know I mean there is there's not a lot of Roads there's one big road um in your experience and it's probably costly um but given the amenities we've seen here presented to us as sort of the high-end very luxurious amenities was some sort of underground heating element mineral coated installated melt snow melting so that you know the snow sort of is is mitigated maybe the HOA could bear the EXP I mean it would be prohibitively expensive or very expensive from an electricity perspective but have you seen that implemented in in this type of or size development before I haven't seen it in this type of Development I've seen it on single family homes only um that wasn't that was not something that's been considered here okay thank you um and the last question is sort of just um a housekeeping item for context for the board and maybe members of the public under Section six the required approvals um item one which I guess you're in front of us tonight for is the preliminary final site plan approval item two site plan and major subdivision approval at the the County planning board level should it progress to that could you just sort of draw the distinction of what would be required there or well we we have to get approval uh from the County planning board uh so that's required of most all developments uh and then the subdivision is part of this uh application okay thank you sure okay any other questions I have a followup yes thank you Mr Goldberg for raising up the Eis because I there was a question I wanted to ask I mean it seemed like the environmental impact statement was a little short um particularly having to do with the the wildlife and the trees and and the area that is being built you mentioned like there was a hawk there and I don't know whether it was one hawk or 20 Hawks was it a was it a an area where Hawks go to and the solution seemed to be that well once we tear down all these trees and build houses we're going to build more trees and hwks are going to come back so I'm not sure what the real impact is of the development the seems to me an impact statement talks about what the impact is going to be to the the environmental areas including the wildlife and I felt like that was kind of brushed over um you referenced an area like maybe it was a state um listing of types of animals along in certain categories um but it wasn't clear to me that you really talked about the impact of the existing wildlife in the area if you tear down all those trees and build these houses is that something that's not really within the scope of Anis well the the uh we the request we got was to to submit Anis um and sort of a simplified one but uh I mean we can uh in the in the Eis we did provide uh a map um and probably we should look at the um we could look at the other exhibit but the plan there was a plan submitted with the Eis and basically what that reviewed was um under the New Jersey uh D the njg web uh study provides information regarding uh uh Wildlife uh and if you if you look at that uh what we see is that um there's rank one and rank two areas are identified the Morris Township Code with respect to environmental impact is concerned with ranks three four and five and we don't have any of those here um so what we identified simply is that uh there's it just simply lists that there's a habitat type of a uh repair and Corridor for example uh and that's associated with the uh uh with the the ponds and and the stream that runs on the golf club property um uh that barely extends into the subject property uh there's another area which simply indicates uh that um there's a wooded area and that's rank two but none of these rise to the higher ranks which are of specific concern and identified in the Morris Township ordinance uh you know they ask for specifically Iden if ranks 3 four and five and we don't have that here uh the the hawk is simply listed as an animal that is prevalent in the area um and uh um not that it's it rises to uh of concern in terms of threatened or endangered species here um so what we find when reviewing the uh the DP data is that there are no specific uh Wild life uh uh of concern identified specifically of concern uh in these areas um once you get up up towards uh Jockey Hollow area that's an area that in fact you see it on the on the plan that was included in the Eis that is specifically indicated as a as a higher level Federal concern but none of that extends to this property um the majority of this property is is not identified as really being any rank um and it's classified as Urban Land um uh recreational the the golf club property is identified as recreational land uh so the D studies and and published information does not document any uh specific uh wildlife of concern on this on this property um uh we also looked at uh uh the D criteria the regulated areas which are uh reparan zones are associated with ponds and streams uh those uh do not extend onto this subject property they are limited to the golf club property and don't extend over as far as this uh so we actually mapped that on on on one of the exhibits that was submitted more recently um so there's no repairing regulated repairing zones there's no flood plane no flood Hazard areas um uh other regulated areas uh and and there's no Wildlife specifically identified of concern in any of the uh published uh um or documented uh uh information provided by the DP so um in in short there there's not a concern with respect to adverse impacts much of the property as I say is uh is open uh there's a portion that is wooded uh uh our landscape architect will talk in more detail about the tree removal and tree replacement uh we we've modified that and that was in the exhibit one of the exhibits that was submitted uh so uh there's really minimal environmental impact uh that we see based on our review of of data and information uh for this property okay thank you sure any other board members with questions need question yes so you answered a lot of the issues in my review letter Mr Sher just a couple of clarifications um I believe the architect had said that there was no outside buildings assume all lawn and maintenance will be accomp will be uh done by the Association is there Provisions for landscape trucks or how will that occur or they where would a landscape truck be staged when they have to come in and mow the lawn on the site uh we hadn't gotten to the level of where the landscape truck might might be situated um so I don't really have an answer specifically where they might where they might Park probably we'll come up we'll we'll look at that we haven't looked at that yet am I correct in assuming that there would be one company hired to mow the lawn and trim the trees for the entire you wouldn't you wouldn't have you wouldn't have 16 different people come well I was more concerned was somebody going to have a is each res have a lawn mower and be push mowing their own little piece the the HOA is responsible for maintenance of all the property in common okay um going back to the fire truck again did I hear correctly that the fir Tru may need to do multiple Point turns that it would have to back up and then pull forward and back up and pull forward to to turn around is that accurate yes so since as you heard you may have to be go back going back to the Fire official to discuss unit one can you discuss the same issue with unit two as well since if they have to do that multiple jocking back and forth I'm concerned that they may have to dve they may want either want to or need to drive into the driveway of unit 2 as well and that one looks um just a similar size to unit okay um and then with regard to the sight lines I just wanted to clarify that you will provide that site distance exhibit um and if possible please show the Landscaping on it as well um it looks like there's a split rail fence along the the roadway along Spring Brook Road is that correct there's a there's a decorative fence proposed along the springb road Frontage my concern would be to make sure that that fence does not block like triangles coming out the site okay we will provide that exhibit Mr v a question Mr sh when this Landscaping truck comes in where's it going to park yeah we're going to get back to the board on that one we're going to look into that because you know how long big they are yeah any other question from profession that's it for me any board members members of the public any questions of this Witness Robert MCB Mr sh your fire truck turning template you identify truck that correct um I'm going to say yes but I I can refer to the template to be sure yes yes [Music] TR whatever the size of the template was that that uh they provided us that's what we [Music] used whether your plan is correct or if it's incorrect based on an inacurate and we're talking about one foot right okay we use the template provided by the um by the fire department depart it's correct whatever the fire department indicated their vehicle was uh that's they provided the size and the Turning template for their vehicle that's what we used I'll double check that but we can we'll verify that despite the com apprciate concern because with a decreased uh width in the cartway 20 feet and observing the path delineated in red you can see how tight things are maneuvering throughout the site so I thinko question for theard to consider did you consult with the international fire code in desig as I said we use the template provided by the fire department in for the Turning Maneuvers shown and that was the sole basis for your preparation of the template is that correct as we typically get um the specific templates from fire departments in preparing plans we uh ask what their trucks are because it varies from fire department to fire department and municipality to municipality so we commonly get their template get their size of truck and use that and that's what we did here Mr sh reviewing your template there were a couple areas of concern that I had in reviewing appreciating the template that you provided the first is the incoming truck path appears to extend over the center line in front of units 12 13 can you confirm that so what was your question again I said the incoming truck path appears to extend over the center line yes unit 12 and 13 is that correct yes and that uh would also be true uh of the center line in front of 14 15 when the fire truck comes in uh if they're responding to an emergency you can expect that they're going to ex go beyond the cental line uh to to get to where they need to go are there any other areas on your template where that's well the template I think speaks for itself it shows the alignment of the fire truck uh the path of the fire truck coming in maneuvering around uh the island for example and then and then exiting so you can see on the exhibit the path of that truck does the incoming fire truck have to navigate around the island in order to get to the turnaround area or will it continue straight along Road a to get it could do either one why has uh why did you not show uh the uh pathway from the area from the island to the area in front of unit three quite frankly it was so obvious that it could make it we were more focused on U making sure we could make it around the island uh and then we looked at the maneuverability at the end so your answer is you didn't include this because it's so obvious is that well it was that we could make that we could pull straight into to the end of the road uh staying on the main portion of the road I think that's fairly clear and additionally near the entrance didn't show a truck [Music] path exit that that correct at at the entrance down to Spring Brook Road well I as I testified to earlier uh we didn't that's not shown there but we did look at that and um that the truck can make that entrance and exit from sprick Road into and out of the new road a I think it would benefit the board's consideration if these gaps were amended is that something you consider Council what what are you alleging here I'm asking question sir no no but you have to have a foundation for what you're asking what is it truck okay but this is what the fire department looked are you you saying that the fire department did something wrong here okay let's not get into an argument well he has have a found we'll give it the specific way and we all understand that when a fire truck comes in people pull it aside and get out of the way the turn around design will that also encourage trash bers and delivery vehicles to also use the drive the turnaround area at the back that's it's intended for turnaround uh of vehicles uh including emergency vehicles so anybody who needs to turn around at the end can use that area because there will be no parking there and it'll be signed and restricted from parking so it is suitable only for a turnaround area will the proposed permeable have weight tolerance sufficient yes is they're designed for um trucks like fire trucks and other trucks are there areas where the truck path overlaps the curbing I know two ands um no it's it stays within the curbing but we did we do provide um and this was something we did speak to the fire chief about we we are using mountable curbing uh and that's uh appropriate uh for the road width and we're also using mountable curbing at the island at the entrance and the island uh partway through the site so it is mountable curbing explain mountable curing mountable curbing yeah mountable curbing is basically it's Belgian block this is going to be Belgian block Curbing and it is installed at a at an angle at a batter so that if you uh if you bump into the curbing with your wheel it doesn't damage your wheel and you could actually drive over it if need be and so we are providing that throughout the development here um that was part of the original plan and we talked talked to the fire chief about that and that's something he he wanted to see as well but we already had it on the plan and I want to just confirm the design layout of the turnaround area any vehicle navigating that area is going to be required to reverse right perform that turn depends on the vehicle the fire I indicated this was this specifically was for the fire truck but other vehicles could turn around in that area as well but they'll also be requ toze reverse exit it would depend on the truck that in that area you can you can turn around that area is specifically designated ated as a turnaround area for cars and trucks at the end of the road I make sure um I want to make sure I had the complete report the pagination that I have off hand I don't know I'd have to look at your copy off and I don't know have aop yes uh no there's a page two you you want see a copy you anybody else have questions back up Mr chairman I have one quick question while we're waiting for them um I forgot to ask before how is mail being handled will there be a central mailbox or individ delivery to each individual house each each individual house and those will be mailbox excuse me mailboxes at the curb or on the side of the house um I don't know that we've gotten to that point of of of that it's a good question I don't know the answer of chair question is that legal I was under the impression that the Postal Service doesn't do that for new construction anymore we will have to do cluster yeah we haven't gotten there but we will make sure it's a good question and we'll make sure we're doing what's allowed so like a few of the other questions were asked we'll get you an answer on that thank you so if it's a cluster box Frank then it'll be located on the site plan we'd have to show it on the plan yes yes did you perform any analysis or under any investigations to deter air quality caused by the removal of trees S no I have several questions uh regarding tree removal I know that there's anticipated testimony from the landscape Arch these are directly related to your plan the numbers presented in your plan and the numbers that you present in so the board will allow me to just clarify uh the numbers of the trees being proposed the trees being removed and the calculation Frome I have sever questions in that regard uh he um he will not be answering questions on the tree removal and planning we're going to have a witness on that i' kindly ask um that the online forms the amend included page two while it may have been included via hard copy to the board it was not included on the link provided to the public I'll check on that thank you thank you sorry so there'll be no uh testimony un sh regarding the inconsistencies between the plan and the E regarding the number of trees that are REM rep of thee repl no did you consult with anyone from the Spring Brook Country Club or any Representatives whether any known threatened or endangered species have been observed or cited on the site did I no I did not I asked at the initial meeting whether any studies were conducted or analysis undertaken to determine the presence of historically applied pesticides on the site and you indicated that that had been perform um I asked for a copy of that documentation I anticipated that that may be included or addressed in the E it wasn't I kindly asked that you provide that documentation for the board for consideration regarding um storm water uh during your design process did you take into account all the existing infrastructure all what infrastructure storm water infrastructure I'm not sure specifically what you're referring to areare yes confirm where those inlets flow into yes can you expand on that well everything flows uh downhill towards the ponds so it's the that's the re all the water from this site uh and in this area of the club property uh is collected and discharges uh into uh one of the ponds on the property yeah and the pipes connected to the inlet let me ask you how many inlets you identify onad I don't remember the number are they identified on your plan the storm sewer system existing storm s system is identified on the plan does your design take into the location yes and how will those pipes be maintained construction the pipes in Spring Brook Road the pipes leading from the inlet all of the storm SE on the site will be part of the HOA the storm sewer in Spring Brook Road is m simple storm sewer exure the inlets on Spring Brook Road how will they be maintained post construction not following the question there's a public storm sewer system in Spring Brook Road consisting of inlets and storm sewer piping that's part of the existing Municipal storm sewer system part of the municipal infr structure it will remain part of the municipal infrastructure the storm sewer system on the site will be owned operated maintained by the homeowners association are any improvements proposed on top of existing storm water infrastructure objection I don't know what you're asking I'm asking if any of the proposed houses or improvements that are identified on the plan are situated or located exure I still don't understand ask whether the improvements that are planned on this property would impact any existing storm water uh uh drainage system because they are right where this the system is right where the house is going to go well there's a stor as I said there's a storm sewer system in Spring Brook Road that collects water from the roadway uh we have an on-site storm sewer system uh it will at one point uh Connect into the municipal system we have an extensive on-site storm water management uh system um consisting of we have collection inlets on on our site which will be part of the HOA which will be um which will help to collect storm water they'll be discharged into uh uh storm water management facilities including on-site detention basins and an underground infiltration system um and and then there will be a connection into the municipal system uh in terms of impacts we will have less runoff from the site under the proposed conditions than we do and then comes from the site under existing conditions I'm hope that answers the question I'm not sure I follow the question entirely actually I'm not sure it does because I thought the question was basically is there an existing storm water system on the site now that maybe serves the golf course that you know runs out to Spring Brook Road that has to be relocated as a part of this there are some there are some pipes um um uh in this on the site but they don't really collect they're just some underground pipes um and those will be eliminated and we're going to anything that's on the site will be uh homeowner associ um you're talking the new the new all all of the new there's nothing there's nothing existing there that is going to be again I don't really quite follow the question but that's going to be adversely impacted so all of the existing infrastructure has been taken into consideration um as part of the design correct yes okay I'm sorry so are you saying that there is infrastructure on the site that's not storm along Spring Brook Road some of the storm sewer pipes along Spring Brook Road there's a there's a pipe that comes into it from the back but it doesn't appear to really function anywhere go anywhere that was his question and and I don't understand I have to say because it happened last time as well when an attorney gets up here and ask questions your demeanor completely changes he's just the person representing other people I don't didn't understand the question I'm sorry well I'm not convinced of that to tell you the truth but please you know he's asking a question and and every question that he asks we're interested in as well and I don't I don't understand the tension that happens in the room when an attorney gets up and asks a question I just sense it I don't know if anybody else does but um it has nothing to do with the qu it's the quality of the questions that we don't understand I have nothing against this would I I have nothing against this gentleman he can ask all the questions he wants and we're going to answer him but I I mean I don't know anything about S I didn't understand what he was asking well I think it's come to the point now where there are some pipes that come into the Spring Brook Road from somewhere but nobody knows where they come from or what purpose they serve that a fair there's there are a couple of pipes that come into the back of some of the inlets um those have to be removed and but do we know what they do now is it's like somebody's backyard up the hill no no you don't know what they do no there's no there's no nothing that's coming through the site they don't provide any real benefit they're not serving other properties so what what are they what are they doing there somebody put them in for a purpose I I think they were some of this site has been Disturbed over time um some of them I think might be some uh drains that were put because there was a um was for example a uh putting green on this area at one point in time so but which is not in use anymore um so these have been there for for years they don't seem to be serving any purpose look this seems like a topic that there's a lot of interest in so for the next hearing yeah we'll we'll make sure we identify all of the existing infrastructure so that everyone knows what's there and what's going to happen to it so little Vehicles up there and find out where it goes I I'm sure we could do our best to find out where where the pipes go I'm not sure how um you know I don't know if it's gonna right but we'll do it the board is interested Mr berois is interest we're gonna we're gonna find an answer because he wants to know the existing infrastructure is shown on the survey that's part of the plans wasn't putting I answer the question it's a good question we're gonna get you an answer was a regional question yeah I agree and we won't know until we have the answer as to whether it's pertinent to what it is we're looking at and we will get you an answer it's a good question and the plans show the existing infrastructure it shows the infrastructure any piping or any changes in the piping is shown on the plans all of that is detailed there was a survey done which shows piping uh in Spring Brook Road and any other piping that may be on the site so that's all been identified uh and uh and it's shown what stays and what goes and what gets removed so it is on the plans that have been submitted patience do as attor here TR to be very focused understand are L meetings they are for all of us questions do serp respect how are you proposing to meet the peak rate reduction requirements for the development with the uh on-site detention basin and the underground infiltration [Music] systems uh I'd have to go through the report to you'd have to look at specific areas there are different drainage areas so times of concentration may vary you both Mark that question I'd interested in the answer could you could you repeat the question so I understand time of concentration be used for the drainage okay I'll have to look ateline minimum that's focus of that I I don't have the report in front of me um but it was was submitted we have to look at the report to get the specific Atomic concentration excuse me test pits performed within the footprint of each infiltration uh not yet without performing the required soil profile profile pits how do you determine the infiltration rate of the soil uh based on available published information and uh and utilizing basically some minimum values uh and we indicate that those will be verified with field testing how did you determine the elevation of high water table without performing uh again based on available published information uh and some assumptions uh at this time uh again that would be verified through the testing in your groundwater Ming calculations I noticed that you have Ming Heights R from 5.6 to 11 without determining the depth of the seasonal high water table how can you be sure this doesn't cause well the mounding analysis is Tak some assumptions into consideration and uh that's built into the or put into the program to come up with the results as I said uh um testing will verify some of those numbers thank you all Reserve questioning regarding number of trees being proposed removed rep thank while while council is still up here did the board um require him to or their side to produce a report from their expert their hydrology expert I recall that from the last meeting you retain a hyra when yeah because they have a right to uh of course I believe that the standard has been 10 days before the next hearing or whenever the testimony Well we'd like to we'd like to get it for the next hearing for sure yeah because otherwise we're just going to be spinning our wheels so please get it to us by the next he for before the next he 10 days before the next he are you agreeing that to that I I consult with my expert yeah and please let everybody know because if there's going to be a delay because there's no sense in coming in here and spending thousands of dollars by the applicant for something that can't be accomplished when when are you going to know that I don't know that when I reach out to my expert and find out I'll let everybody yeah if you can know by the end of the week we would really appreciate it yeah you will do that or you're going to work on it do give us a stat give us a status update by Friday it can't be I've called him three times and he never answered the phone but just give us a status update okay there's a counil before we get start there's a member of the environmental commission here and I was wondering if she had any questions no you don't have any questions I can she T presentation oh got a thank you Mr Sher good evening nice to see you again uh very quickly with respect to the plan as as we see up here uh and I I know this is not a subdivision of council will indulge me for a moment um using a turnaround which I know for example down in LBI subdivision by easements they require turnarounds uh where there's no room for called the sack have you ever developed or or or were the uh engineer on a project such as that or one such as this where there's turnarounds without a culde saac or other means of egress uh from the property yes okay and are you able to give uh some examples of where you've designed these um I I can't think of one off the top of my head but um using for example you know K turns uh or Hammerheads sometimes at the ends of roadways or driveways uh is is commonly accepted practice in lie of having a formal culd act at the end and again just to be clear that's in a subdivision situation or a situation like this with attached single family homes on a single site in many different kinds it could be a multif family or single family type of project it could be applied at any of those I'd ask that you provide a few examples of that that would certainly be helpful and I think U helpful for the board as well thank you we leave it there you leave it right there any other members of the public with [Music] questions seeing none hearing none board professionals any questions questions board members with any questions I have a I have a question um you you were talking about the uh 20 foot width on the road inside this project and one of the examples you gave or Mr Hansen stated was the weak sheep Condominiums off of cadina Road and I know that's like semicircular so there's like two means of uh Ingress and egress to that premisis on uh James Place is there any type of similar type turnaround uh in that development you mean at the end of the road right no the the one culdesac road has a has a culdesac at the okay but there are two means of Ingress and egress there are yes right yes because I'm I'm very concerned about this turnaround as you this is addressed to counsel to the applicant in general very concerned about this uh uh turnaround at the end of the roadway um to me it's presenting all sorts of problems and uh I want it to run smoothly I do not want you know like oh there was a car there when we really needed to turn around uh or something else happened that prevents a fire an emergency vehicle from making a turnaround swiftly and safely so even if that means you know redesigning this to eliminate some houses at the end uh but I want this to run smoothly if we're going to improve this project okay we got it Mr chairman thank you I have a question sure so just following that line of thought for a second you know with single point entry projects oftentimes there's a an Emergency egress way um have you given any consideration to the possibility of having an emergency egress way from say the end of that road out to the golf course and you have a paved cart path right there we hadn't uh looked into that um but I mean it could be blocked off you know just for emergency um egress only right car only 5T wide yeah but but it gets you off the site in the event you had multiple buildings on fire they're you know pretty close so it's possible you dry windy conditions you have multiple buildings on fire you need a way off and you can't get through your you know out the spring grook you know give you another way out we'll look at it Mr we'll look at it any other board members with questions public well I guess we're done no more questions at this point um it's now 5 after 10 what time do we do 10 10 okay just just asking so Mr chairman we thank the board for their time and their questions um we do have of course more testimony uh and at least two or three Witnesses we have our um landscape architect who we did not get to put on this evening traffic and then we have to round it out with our planner so we do have three more witnesses we'll probably have something maybe it'll come up that Mr sh will have to be back in something sure and and on that and I'm happy to bring him back to answer the new questions that came up but if um if it goes to what should have been covered during the first two meetings right I mean because there was a lot of questions this evening that should have been asked during the first presentation um not with the new materials that were presented so I would just say that the question should be limited a little bit to the new material that's submitted I I understand it try to limit it but it's not strictly a courtroom I get it I get it and sometimes that additional testimony raises additional questions on those of it so they have tole back so I agree I agree that we don't want to do it expensively and weh everything but sometimes it raises new ideas so Frank I just want to run down what short list I have and I'm not saying this is everything but I was trying to keep notes of the open items and my man here Josh in the front he's got the list so you should look at him because he writes everything confer a little bit here but but you know you're going to confer with the fire chief On the Turning temp spit and perhaps an you an emergency gr way out of the site um uh an exhibit to show line of sight at Spring Brook Road uh you're going to show us I think the sidewalks being different so continuous sidewalk and that a car will still fit without um blocking that sidewalk and the conversation with the fire chief is really both with respect to units one and two uh a where a proposed location where um landscape trucks might Park how that would work of course mailboxes uh uh sighting mailboxes if if they're needed you're going need to look into that a little bit you're going to identify and maybe ready have it on your plan but next time we can get into it a little bit um the existing INF infrastructure on site especially with regard to storm sewer if it serves I think really where that was heading was if it serves the uh Golf Course is water going to now back up on a golf course if you just cut it where's it going I guess that was most of it you have any addition I ones that we didn't now that you been put on the spot okay that would be great yeah thank you it was like the teacher and you're waiting for more more more homework moreor I had a couple of other notes but I didn't think they were really that relevant Rich wasn't there something about a verification of the length of the fire truck that was used 41 you do need to verify the fire truck L the template was whatever and what's on your plan great all right okay next meeting next meeting do we need an extension um we may because I don't know where we are on time but let's figure out the next meeting first yeah and Frank did you provide a transcript for from the last hearing yes you did okay I believe you okay we have it so confirmed we have it something before November you know [Laughter] yes May 20th is my first me my gosh May oh you're not here I'm not here I'm not here for the April meeting so I'm probably part of the problem for that can we carry to the next meeting to see if we can get a special meeting date March actually February just for purposes of scheduling and seeing if we can work out another special I could carry you to that just scheduling for scheduling meeting okay yeah you did say right was the next meeting next meeting is the 26th February February 26th is my next regular schedule meeting but I'm booked already you're booked all the way to bank uh that's unbelievable in March wow I'm booked okay um Morris T is a popular place to be wow there's probably time in April I'm just not year in April yeah um well we'll see can we get on in February and then we'll see maybe the board members will find it in their hearts to give us a date off the schedule what's up oh I got I got I got bearings and it's brand new application oh oh I [Music] mean you want to look February 26 26 26 26 we have we have to pull the board right down feary okay sounds like holiday be somewh else February 12th look at February 12th February 12th February 12th what kind of day of the week is that Monday Monday Monday is that is that holiday no holiday is the following week yeah the 19 that l we we're just polling here a little bit February 12th if that works for you guys February 12th yeah you want to see if that works for you guys yes um the day after huh yes day after the Super Bowl yeah yeah day after the Super Bowl that's a Federal holiday day after the Super Bowl not for me the 19 I teach this is for a hearing yes February Mondays now this this semester I teach them M good is it good with us I mean are you guys good good okay let me let me call okay February 12th Dell's not here Cher yes yes I believe I'm available but I Ben more it might not be yes Kramer Mr wooder yeah I'm Mr ol Mr Williams S no that's my birthday weekend you guys can feel free to send me any gifts drink track I'll be in Washington Mr Gold I'll confirm with you tomorrow but I believe I am but I if I'm not I will let you know tomorrow you know you just got to dial in on Zoom right oh yeah so how many we have one two three four five six seven see that right wait that's continue 2 3 four five six maybe Betty and maybe Betty uhhuh I will confirm with is that Mr Goldberg as a maybe or a yes Mr Goldberg I put him as a yes but maybe I will I'm maybe so I will confirm with you tomorrow so we have five yeses one maybe and one who's not here for which dat February 12 okay we'll have enough to put on two witnesses but all the other people are not available so we could we're going to have the landscape architect she could do our whole presentation and then we could big back Rusty for his presentation yeah because there's open questions with him yeah but our traffic and planner are not they'll have to go to the meeting after that and you were gonna give us a um written report on the planet because I think the yeah he's he said oh great thanks okay so I just we'll take it we'll take and we'll have the landscape architect and Rusty come back for the 12 the architect and the engineer the landscape architect we're not going to do traffic Joe you're not available yeah no we're not do traffic Hansen definitely okay so the professionals we're good except Joe but I send you TR is conceivable a request next try to control Ann yeah make an announcement yes as soon as I know is that what we're doing February 12 it looks okay with the app okay yes all right so so hey for purposes of the for purposes of the public and rescheduling obviously this meeting is now concluding for this evening it's going to uh continue on February 12th at 7 pm in this room okay without notice without further notice from the applicant February 12 special meeting right February 12th special meeting and we need any extension um why don't we extend through March yeah we consent to that extension so March what however many days March has these days 31 31 we agree yeah yeah okay our expert produce summary report for the March meeting is that is that correct yeah I don't know that there's going to be a March meeting that they're participating in but you're not going to participate in the February meeting with Witnesses you can obviously cross-examine but your Witnesses won't be you know we're going to let him finish his direct case first so we're not there yet yeah correct landscape architect and Rusty Scher again with the unresolved questions okay all right okay that's without no further notice no further without further notice right okay okay board members anything else bring up nothing nothing nothing nothing motion to I did have one item okay sorry you know I did have one item um are we in the other matters portion of the meeting I don't know is there an other matters portion of special meetings Okay so there's always other matters um I believe I shared Mr Woodford Mr all M Santiago an email my received earlier this week from a member of the environmental commission who is um applying for a grant to do an environmental inventory of mors Township that will then be used to feed into the next master plan review and they are seeking just a letter from the board of adjustments supporting this grant I believe they've received one from the planning board so I can resend the email to you Mr Woodford got okay so yeah so just I don't know if that's something that we can um accommodate the environmental Commission in producing as a board 26 I put that on the agenda for discussion yeah I'll put a letter together we'll okay that would be super that would be greatly appreciated by the uh the people that are applying within the last 48 hours correct doesn't just it's not coming up okay well I'll resend it nothing Ur there's nothing urgent but yeah just I just wanted to just bring that to the board's attention that they're applying for this grant to do an environmental inventory that you know he said like at 10 o' yesterday am I on it yeah it says Rich okay I'll get you another copy it's fine I've been wondering why you haven't been answering my emails oh you got my wrong email that's a very old email listen we've been together a long time so apparently I'm like I can see this so I'm gonna you usually do response reset it tonight yeah and um get rid of that one so here I'm going to respond to one that came up from you from October okay okay and um of 22 for some reason but um yeah good night all right so I just which one okay all right so good now I'll have your most updated email thank you thank you for your time and attention on this as it's this is important to the environmental commission thank you thank you Rich motion to adjourn second faor favor I Mr chair