##VIDEO ID:1iTUQxlU4oA## significantly to point okay we will call the meeting to order we can have a roll call here here here here here here here okay we can stand for the salute to the flag to the flag of the United States of America into the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all [Applause] and for the record um we do also have Mr Fuller present Mr Fuller has to be sworn okay we have his oath Claire I swear you ready for ready for me swear anybody else there's nobody else okay if you can read it do you saw me swear I John Fuller do Solly swear I'll support the Constitution of the United States the Constitution of the state of New Jersey that I'll bear true through faith and allegiance to the same and to the governments established in the United States and in this state under the authority of the people I do further solemly swear that I will faithfully and partially and justly perform all the duties of the position of member of the Zoning Board of adjustment of the township of ocean according to the best of my abilities so help me God congratulations for another term congratulations just sign and pass it over okay uh the notice requirements of the open public meeting law for this meeting have been satisfied a copy of the notice having been sent to the Asbury Park Press in the coaster and filed in the office of the Township Clerk there is an emergency exit through the courtroom doors and two exits at the rear of the room there will be no smoking no new cases will be started after 9:00 p.m. and no new testimony taken after 9:30 p.m. in addition the applicant will be limited to 45 minutes of testimony all meetings will be video and audio taped and shown on the township of oceans Community cable channel channel 22 on Verizon FiOS and channel 77 on cable vision all cell phones must be turned off or if you need to make a call please make your call outside the room we have 2 minutes for adoption um we'll do March 21st 2024 first I will move to uh accept the minutes is there a second I'll go back oh you can do all in favor oh okay all in favor I any opposed okay for the June 19th 2024 minutes I'll move for adoption is there second second all in favor I any opposed okay minutes are adopted uh Mr Steinberg I will turn it over you yeah there's a request for a reaffirmation of a subdivision um deal Road proba Road public place in Route 18 U basically we approved the hill L school expansion as a part of that process and and part of the project is that they are building a new fire station in exchange for the property that the existing fire station is on this required changing of lot lines it's considered a minor subdivision because it's only creates two two New Lots um and the municipal land use law indicates that you must perfect a minor subdivision with a within 190 days uh however there are some exceptions in the municipal land use law one of which is uh agency approvals and other things if they are pending and you can't do it you're permitted to an extension so if the board would uh um so desire they can move to extend the minor subdivision for an additional 190 days okay I'll move to extend for the addition okay and all in favor any I any opposed okay um we have to adopt the resolution for the 2024 2025 zoning board meeting dates um I will move there second second um all in favor I any oppos okay and um to accept our board professional um resolutions I will move to accept is there a second I'll second all in favor I any opposed okay and we have the following resolutions for memorialization Peter Lauria 20 barbar Lane Oakhurst 07755 block 26.1 lot 7 Jared gopen 71 Dwight Drive Ocean 7 07712 block 40 lot 107 Solomon and Sarah chabar 221 Elmwood Road oakers 07755 block 2531 lot 11 and I will move is there a for a positive resolution is there a second all in favor I any opposed oh forgot about we'll do roll call going forward okay um for old business I aat Services LLC 1700 Highway 35 Oakhurst 07755 block 34 Lot 12 Zone C2 as well as I aat Services LLC 1418 Highway 35 Oakhurst 07755 block 182 lot 7 Zone 0-140 and I I I'm sorry I aat Services LLC 922 Highway 35 Ocean 07712 Block 141 Lot 12 Zone C5 are all going to be heard on September 18th at a special meeting 7:00 p.m. and no further notice um is needed so if you are here for those cases they will not be heard this evening they will be heard at the special meeting September 18th um at 7:00 p.m. no further notice and so if you are here for those cases again they will not be heard so unless you just would like to stay and join us you are um free to leave okay our first oh I'm sorry also Abraham and Margaret moseri 491 South edgmere Drive West Allenhurst 07711 block 76 live 2 Zone R5 will be moved to the regular meeting September 19th 2024 7:00 p.m. no further notice is needed for [Applause] that and I believe that covers all cases moved okay our first case Matthew bilboa 122 Logan Road Ocean 07712 Block 140 lot 64 Zone R six the applicant is proposing to erect the Second Story of an existing dwelling minimum front yard setb back 30 ft required 25.1 ft exists and 25.1 fet is proposed Mr Bill boa I'm sorry Bill b Bill ba sorry about that if you can um come and have a seat and if you can raise your right hand do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth yes okay and if you can just state your name and your address again for the record my name is Matthew bilau my address is 122 Logan Road okay and I will turn it over to Mr Higgins and then Mr mattl basically this is a lot that first of all it's it's under the minimum lot depth requirement by about 15 ft the existing house is set back 25.1 ft and 30 FTS required and he's simply putting a second story on a one-story house extending that 25 5.1 foot uh non-conforming setback vertically so it's a technical variance he's not changing anything there's no increase in impervious lot coverage and there's adequate parking on site to accommodate the number of bedrooms so I I just don't have any problem with it okay Mr matl uh there no site improvements so I don't have any engineering issues okay Mr Bill b if you can just tell us about your request and um sure so I'm just looking to uh you know renovate up so we're adding it's a cape style house and we're just expanding you know what is like the attic second floor to an actual second floor it doesn't you know we're not expanding forwards or backwards so we're not you know approaching on any of those issues we're just doing a you know you know a regular vertical Edition um you know there's plenty of houses on Logan Road that are two stories um that have you know the same distance from the road as my house um you know we're just trying to make our house large enough that we can stay in it you know we just had we just had a baby and we're trying to uh you know stay in the house um yeah it's that's the was okay any questions from the board what are you adding upstairs um so we're adding two bathrooms and three bedrooms what's going to remain on the first floor you changing that um so we're removing one bedroom on the first floor and we're um expanding the living room and then we're rotating the stairs okay so you're moving one bedroom on First and expanding the living okay yep and the outside of the house the finish uh we're just going to do the same siding and a new roof I guess new roof yes so the sightings will match yes yeah if they yeah they'll match any any other question going to match or all new it's going to match is what we're doing but if we can't get a match then we'll do all new like we're not going to let the house not look good that's not not an option my wife won't let it happen okay any other questions from board members okay any questions or comments um from the public okay motion to close the public hearing motion to close the public hearing second okay all in favor I I any opposed okay uh is there a a motion motion for a positive resolution a second and if we can get a roll call yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes okay congratulations and best of luck thank you congratulations on the baby yes next case Michael Jan John Hancock 13312 Franklin Parkway block 104 Lot 19 Zone R six applicant seeks approval to construct a one-story rear Edition along with a second floor Edition minimum front yard setback 30 ft required 25.1 ft exists 22.6 ft front porch overhand and 23.1 ft second floor Edition proposed and if you can please uh raise your right hand and you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth yes and if you don't mind stating uh your first and last name Michael John Hancock 1312 Franklin Parkway okay Monica Hancock 1312 Franklin Parkway okay and I'll turn it over over to Mr Higgins and yeah the applicants proposing a small first floor addition and a second floor addition to the existing residence uh the building is set back 25.1 ft uh and 30 FTS required when they do the addition uh the plan proposes a front yard setback of 22.6 ft to uh to propos a overhang of the existing front porch so they're going to put an overhang over an existing porch and 23.1 feet to the overhang of the second floor Edition I really have any concerns with it I think because the Second Story Edition is overhanging I think we need some testimony as to why they're doing that so that the board can determine whether or not the benefits of doing that out weigh any detriments but other than that I don't have a problem Mr mattl and I don't have any engineering concerns okay um uh Mr Miss Hancock if you can just please address well tell us about your requests but also address U Mr higgins's um question about why the the need for that uh pretty similar to the gentleman before us uh we're trying to make room for our family uh three bedrooms upstairs and then we'll be extending um what's now the screen porch uh we'll be extending the kitchen area and living area um as far as the overhang MH um I think it would the idea is it would just free up a little more space upstairs for the three bedrooms for the three aesthetically do you think it'll help the appearance of the house I think straight wall sure yeah and it'll match uh similar similar jobs that have been done on the Block so far and just so you understand there are certain legal proofs the board has to cons consider off for that type of thing so they just need some testimony on the record sure and any other testimony about your request uh um if you have any questions I'm happy to answer but uh yeah okay questions from the board the outside new roof yes yeah new roof and we that sting most likely all new siding probably going to stick with the same all match right yeah okay any other questions from board members okay question or comments from the public motion to close the public hearing I'll make a motion to close the public hearing all in favor I I any opposed okay do we have a positive resolution I'll make a mo resolution second roll call [Applause] please yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes okay congratulations best of luck thanks a lot have a good evening hey next case Samantha Martinez 500 bound Road Ocean 07712 Block 39.4 lot 7.1 Zone R2 applicant proposes to construct a retaining wall and a six foot in height fence on top of the pro proposed wall also proposing a 2.5 ft change in grade the single or combined height of any wall or fence shall not exceed 6 feet in the required side or rear yards uh 6.2 feet to 9.5 ft as proposed and the attorney is Kevin Assad okay very good good evening Kevin Assad of Zer FES on behalf of the applicant seated to my right is Mr Mike inly of engineering and he'll be our only witness this evening you said Mr antiy anly i n t i l e and that's the I'm sorry I missed it he's the gentleman sitting to my right the engineer you said the engineer for the project that's correct okay and Mr an Tilly if you can um raise your right hand do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth I do and have you testified before this I think some years ago but not recently just tell us about your IAL yes um I am a licensed engineer and planner in New Jersey since 1990 I'm principal with Crest Engineering Associates uh located in Toms River and Millstone and by preparing plans uh subdivision site plans for really commercial residential and Industrial projects for about 25 years and have provided testimony at many municipalities in Ocean M and MX County okay unless there's any objections we will accept okay Mr Assad sure uh mrly were you involved in the preparation of uh this plan for a retaining wall and fence yes okay and can you just describe for the board the the proposal and uh then you we discuss the variances yeah we're located on the east side of Mound Road um we are 22,651 square ft uh New York 2 Zone uh currently on the property is an existing dwelling uh Standalone garage driveway a shed um our proposal tonight is to add a retaining wall and fence the retaining wall is about 175 ft in total length it runs along the E property line uh the fence runs just outside of the wall so almost combined it's right not the edge of the wall and we do need two variances uh for the proposal one is for a grade change wherein when constructed the wall will require some fill behind it changing the grade of that existing property by a couple feet a little over a couple feet in some places uh and the second variance we need is for the combined height of the retaining wall 3 and 1/2 ft maximum exposure of the wall with a 6 foot board on board fence adjacent to that so that would be 9 and 1/2 ft six is required uh so those are the two variances um as far as justification variances um the property uh grades fairly significantly from bound road to uh easly towards the back property and um in order to properly stabilize uh in my opinion that soil which has a steep slope associated with it uh a wall will level out some of that flatten it out stabilize the soil and stabilize any soil erosion measures uh that would be needed and help help stabilize the soil erosion itself um the engineer's letter talked about uh I believe a tree that had to be removed or um concerned about the the location of the wall in the tree um and this is a tree off site correct yes it's a tree on lot 7.02 which is the adjacent lot to the uh South um that is the lower lot uh the lot the application lot this lot 701 is the higher lot in elevation um that minor standing has been removed along with another a tree a tree that's adjacent to it uh so I think that issue is is taken care of um one of the other issues in the engineer letter was with respect to the overhead uh service that runs from bound road to the garage in the back and there's a utility pole at that location and and it is it is close it appears close I would suggest uh should this be approved that we um um probably stake out the wall ahead of time take a look at uh its relationship to that pole poles are expensive to move we don't have to move it if we can adjust the wall or it's it's not an interference then that would be a I think a a reasonable solution to that who decides that we we typically uh it's a good question we would typically referred to the the township engineer uh or the board engineer to take a look at that while the stakes are there in proximity to the uh utility that okay you um I I I don't really have a problem with that uh I don't if if the pole doesn't need to be relocated um you know I don't want them to go through the expense unnecessarily to do that uh I think that to if if it's going to be staked out and and somebody looks at it uh probably I should do it because I'm now I'm familiar with it um so if if we want to meet on site when when the snake app's done you know we can do that and look to see if any changes need to be made okay can I ask for a point of clarification are you referring to this photo where is the poll the utility poll showing on the plan that was submitted to the board um it's hard to see but if you if you if you're at the house and you go to the right towards the proposed wall you'll see the a circle with a couple hooks on it that is a a symbol for utility do you see where it says limited disturbance 2100 ft I don't think we have that draw I don't know if we um that's okay is that a utility issue would you would JCP manage that or it's not it wouldn't be uh jcpnl uh because it's they're they're concerned about their power lines in the right way uh the the Pole located on on the homeowner's property they don't want it obviously they don't want it to to be negatively impacted by construction but uh I don't think they like an approval from them is necessarily required um do do you have the plan in front of you before Martinez yes this one martinz m is uh entitled plan to company Vance application dated 4524 it's folded in the back looks like [Applause] this the other one we couldn't we couldn't start because it was before 7:30 thank you yes so if you see the the call out that says limited disturbance 2100 sare F feet and there's an a lader arrow pointing from that text uh to a line right next to where the arrow is there's a circle with like two little hooks on it that's the utility pole symbol the 134 right 134 [Applause] yeah you can see it's it's looks like it's very close to the wall um so if a if a modification of the wall would be required um most likely the wall would have to kind of come into the property to go around it because the wall is right on the property line so it would curve well that's not what we're our proposal is um that we'll stake out preconstruction the engineer will come out look at it and uh you know there'll be a conversation as to whether or not the pole should be moved in a bit to get out of the way of the wall and if uh if that becomes necessary we'll of course uh work with jcpnl to make sure that's done safely and uh in accordance with their processes too okay Mr mat like you're okay with the stake out and I I'm okay with that and and I think that's probably a better alternative to move the pole than to try and uh Ang angle or curve the wall around it okay so I got a question the lot next to it is empty correct uh no there's a house on it under construction yeah okay the fence is going to go on top of the wall just uh if you look at the detail um that should be on your plan the wall is built a modular decorative block masonry block it has slight slope to it um for stability purposes so at the top of that slope it's flat and just past the last block would be where the fence would go so at some points according to my paperwork it's going to be 9 and a half ft High correct the wall is three and a half at its worst uh location and that's only in the middle it tapers down to meet grade on both sides move the fence 10 ft into the property line no variance would be required and quite frankly would have the same visual impact and they'd lose 10t of the use of the property would it though cuz it's 9 and 1 12 ft I mean looking from the other is the fence on top of the wall big wall what it's the fence is directly behind or basically top directly behind the way the ordinance reads if the wall in the fence are 10 feet apart or less then you have to combine the height of the wall and the fence if the fence is more than 10 feet from the wall then you don't have to combine the height I see what and if they move that fence 10 and 1 12 ft it's going to have the same exact visual impact and they're having a much less efficient use of the property it's not on top of the wall yeah you don't really see I know this property it's behind behind the wall yeah it's not it's right there and you have to add them up but it's still the maximum height you're going to see is 6 feet the maximum would be 6 feet for the fence and 3 and a half as I said in the worst case for the exposure of the wall um but um and there's also a slope going up from the adjacent property that just so you understand these two lots were one lot and were subdivided several years ago for the new house to be constructed on the what what looks like a vacant lot but now that house is there and there is a fairly steep slope on that lot that leads up to where the wall is so it's it's a situation that was created by the subdivision and the construction of the house on the adjacent lot hope the wall do fail because your house is coming down yeah it's they they're a proven product they've been they've been around a long time um I might even add that uh the wall might be a benefit to the lower lot 7.02 I mentioned uh for stability of that very severe slope it's a it's a 3on one 4on one average slope in there which is pretty significant so that wall kind of levels that out gives more stability it also gives more flexibility to the the home water on the low side to get a swell in there grade it and get his storm water out right now the slope heads right down towards his property that wall will cut that off a little bit and then he can grade and move water left and right mostly mostly uh to the right is that wall on your property or his property it's on our property yeah Mr Higgins you don't have any issues with whether it's farther back or not because you're saying it's the same visual impact will be the same okay if anything if they were to move the fence 10 ft more than 10 ft from the wall they could plant an evergreen screen there they could grow up much higher and have more visual impact so okay any other questions from the board okay Mr Higgins or Mr Matt like any additional okay uh Mr Saudi any other testimony no Madam chair thank you okay um any questions or comments from the public okay motion to close the public hearing second all in favor I any oppos okay Sarah positive resolution for the variances I'll make a motion for positive resolution second second okay yes yes yes yes yes yes yes okay thank you of luck thank you next case gerilyn moff 406 West Park Avenue Ur 07755 block 266 lot 66 Zone R4 the applicant previously received zoning approvals for a two-story rear Edition and second floor Edition that met the zoning bulk requirements the applicant now seeks approval for a second floor Side Edition within the sidey yard setback a second floor addition was constructed which was not part of zoning approval minimum sidey yard setback 10 ft required 5.5 ft exists 5.5 ft proposed David uh ess's is the attorney yes good evening David essis on behalf of the applicant good evening Geral and mail off okay and if you can raise your right hand do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth yes I do okay okay Mr ess's this is um a 3700 ft house it's four bedrooms three bathrooms it's been completely remodeled uh it's been remodeled essentially in keeping with the neighborhood uh it's on West Park Avenue and it backs up all the way to slen place so it goes from Street to Street slen place as you may know is uh by the by fireman's field by the park so uh there's essentially no neighbors behind it and then there's the uh there's a parking lot uh for across the street for the for fireman's field the house is already all completely constructed um it's completely finished um the there is a uh 10t by5 10.9 ft by 5 foot area um that was a on a first floor area uh that was enclosed during the construction essentially Inver ly uh the applicant then she'll testify didn't realize that she was in in in violence of the zoning ordinance was done during construction um and they wound up enclosing this area on the second floor and and put a a laundry room um they kept the house within the uh within the footprint that was already there they added no new additional uh additional footprint and just again a a second floor area that they squared off um in order to add uh to to to make it essentially visually and aesthetically more conforming to the rest of the house uh and um and it all it all fits into the uh to the area um are there any questions by or comments by the professionals um I I don't have any it's basically a vertical extension of what's there um just is there some discussion as to whether or not it's consistent with the character of the area and then there are two comments by the zoning officer which I included in my report and I'll read them as one applicant should provide interior layout plans for proposed additions pictures of plans do not show the entire layout and are not to scale submitted plan to scale is only exterior elevation two pool plot plan shows an existing patched garage to the side of the property the garage is nonconforming and that it does not meet the required sidey guard setback if the garage is ever to to be uh removed replaced enlarged or altered a variance will be required this should be addressed by the applicant I think mainly the applicant should just acknowledge that they understand if something were to happen with that garage it would require either a variance or a uh complete relocation to a conforming position um and as far as the comment on the interior layout it's if it's the addition is only for a laundry room I don't just up to the board whether you want to require something more that's to scale I'm not sure what the zoning officer's concerns were there unless she thought that maybe it was a better question what is the square footage of that laundry it's 50 square feet it's basically 5 by 10 this is Maya I just have a question is this a rental property cuz I see your address is in eaten town no it's not a rental property do you live there no well it's it's under it's it's been renovated so it's complete renovation with an extension that was done so this was the last STW wait waiting to get the approval and they said oh what's this and I just thought hey this is a great idea it was like an awkward roof I like let's just Square it off and I could put a laundry room here instead of the basement could live there during the construction in other words yeah so I didn't even realize it okay you so I'm not sure uh to be honest with you it's it's a possibility um kind of in a period where my kids moved out like transitional period so I'm not going to say yes or no it's possible the home previously been rented prior to the renovations no it was never rented I'm not looking for rental property [Applause] okay Mr matl um I actually didn't review this application because the construction was already done and there are no proposed improvements so there really aren't any engineering issues to to review okay other questions from board members what was the size of the wonder room again it's 5T 5T by 10 ft and as far as the um acknowledgement about the garage um if it were approved you understand a variance would be needed or a relocation if I'm not mistaken I I think what Jim is is indicating we've done this as a condition before the event that the garage was ever destroyed okay it cannot it must be relocated to a conforming location location or get a variance or well they always have the option of get a variance but um your zining officer wants to see plans so that we will know in the future what's inside and that includes the plot plans as well but it sounds like yeah okay that would be condition of approval also they did submit architectural plans I do think that plans were submitted and no changes to the plan I understand that but she's looking for an interior layout if if there's architectural plans with an interior layout then that's been complied with it should be in condition of approval it's been done then they've met the conditions okay looks like it and if it's there then they so just I just for the benefit of the other board members when I look at these plans I see this is the laundry room right here right 5 by 10 and then there's a bathroom in front of it correct so that is over the kitchen and the new dining room below correct so that so right so the footprint of the house never that was never changed it was just like this kind of awkward roof and over the K what's now the kitchen area exactly okay and it really was just the laundry room that was squared off the bathroom too no no the bathroom is existing that was there that's it just became like an awkward spot and I didn't even really think much of it so what are the DAT of those plant these are dated uh August 2nd 2021 because her her comment's on July 1 24 Looking for interior plants okay these must have been submitted after I think there was two sets of plans I don't know what else they could do CH a washing dry there it would be very hard to understand without these I will give her credit okay she didn't have this well we'll make it a condition if the zoning officer is not satisfied they'll have to be submitted if not then she's okay but I think what it was was two sets of plans there was you had an architectural plan then you changed Architects and went with another set of plans that's what was approved and I believe you went back to that previous design is that correct pretty much yeah pretty much so yeah so that's why there's that confusion of two set of architectural PL kind of did a little well this is going to govern that's from 21 well this is what we're going to vote on here what she submitted this is evidence here so I don't I don't know they're telling us that she Zing officer is telling us she does not have interior PL there are copies of architectural plans that were copied and because of the way they were copied they're distorted and I think just basically those the original plans have to be submitted I don't think they have to even be prepared I they exist they just have to be submitted because they basically submitted and if for some reason they're not clear resubmit for a condition okay I think as a condition we would be happy to to submit what's what's required assuming the uh the board would approve it I don't know what she's referencing not here got oh okay okay understood now these these drawings match the photos that you've submitted so from 21 before they changed it oh no this is what's been built dated 21 but this is what has been built I can tell you that from the that's not what was approved that's what that's what the confusion we're about to approve it the ask is for us to approve this right so I I if it was built there have to be plans that were prepared that it was built according to and those have to be submitted that's so basically a a positive resolution and a condition is if they're not satisfact sa Zing officer on those two conditions and obviously if the the garage is destroyed or or removed at any time and to be reconstructed it has to be in a conforming location have to come back to the board Miss meof would agree with those conditions if the board was the garage existing or is that built during the B no it's existing existing okay okay any other questions from board members okay questions or comments from the public public motion to close the public hearing second all in favor I I any oppose okay so positive resolution for the variances I'll motion for a positive resolution second with the stated condition I got the yeah thank you we're voting on The baring for the room correct and the the yes the garage I think is is we're not touching the garage the garage is just a condition that correct that the that if if it were demolished we would need a variance or couldn't rebuild it garage wasn't cited as needing a variance now because it's pre-existed right but we provide in the resolution that's fine statement basically that if it ever should be destroyed or come down you have can't relocate it in a non-conforming location absolutely okay we call clear yes yes yes yes no yes okay congratulations best of luck thank you so much thank you everybody next case Joseph snado 355 Lake Avenue Oakhurst 07755 block 5 lot 32 Zone R4 applicant seeks approval to construct a second floor Edition expand the walkup attic and convert to living space as well as keep an altered detached garage that was converted to a pool house without the approvals or permits minimum front yard setback 30 ft required whereas 13.4 ft to front porch and 19.9 ft to dwelling exists 13.4 ft to expanded front porch and 19.9 ft to second floor Edition proposed minimum both yard setbacks I'm sorry both side yards combined set back 25 ft required 23.5 ft exist 23.5 ft proposed pool house the accessory building over 150 ft must maintain the required 10 ft sides and 30 ft rear yard setbacks 2.6 ft one side 4T other side 7 ft rear proposed minimum driveway side yard setback 5T required 1.5 ft exists and 1.5 ft proposed and Mr SN if you can raise your right hand do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth I do okay and if you can um just state your name again and address for Joseph SN okay and you're at 355 lake Lake Avenue no cured okay I will turn it over to Mr Higgins and then Mr matlot and I'm going to defer to Ben on this right now I realize there were revised plans submitted I know I had them and for some reason I did not do a revised report and my file on this application disappeared so I have my initial report which isn't based on the most current plan so I will let Ben take the lead on this one sure okay so the applicant is requesting approval for the conversion of a detach garage into a guest house along with a second story addition to the existing uh single family uh house um basically the variances are required for uh the the conversion of the guest house um and I think uh there was a little little bit of confusion on the plan for from my perspective because it says that the uh it it calls an ASB built plan uh for the the snado pool house and as built to me means it's already been constructed uh but it the application says it's it's proposing the conversion of the garage to a pool house so uh some clarification on that uh is is necessary and then uh just whether any any additional utilities are are required to uh be extended okay okay so uh this used to be a workshop by the previous owner the owner owned it for I don't know about 50 years and they used to fix cars and fix TVs it was known to be a workshop when we came in we took it we we didn't change anything we just removed the garage doors and put um doors uh of uh uh um just regular doors and we used it for a living space uh living just to to to to be like a a um a pool housee um use when we first applied we thought oh it would be a great idea to make a guest house um that was the initial application and then when when as we were going along with the application we decided why not enlarge the the the front main part of the house and make it into a um into a bigger house and then use that just as a pool house so that's where the confusion I think was with the resubmission into making it into a pool house so basically we're not changing the footprint of the existing house uh the back or the front we're just changing ing the use from a workshop into a pool house there's no need for a guest house there's no need for a PO a guest house so you're also proposing a second story addition to the house directly which apparently is just going to go straight up like the other applications we've had earlier there are variances that are required but only because he's taking the existing non-conforming setbacks of the one story home and extending it vertically yes making it larger so I just have a question it's okay Mr you mentioned about survey that they're asking for but you have to submit plans before you can get so has this work been constructed already and have we applied for to do so so um the work that we did was we did not change anything into the house we just wasn't the question did you apply for permits did you apply apply for permit to change the use the house that you're looking because from what I understand from Mr Matlock is that you're looking for an asil survey which means the work has been completed and have we applied for permits to do that work that's so we did apply we did apply for work to connect the back house to to reconnect cuz there was there was a a we did have we did apply for permits actually and the the permits were became subject to the um the Varian um application so were the permits approved for you to do the work in the home the permits were approved because the place had all the connections and all the utilities that were there and they wrote on the permit subject to the VAR application should the application be denied uh I did sign that I will agree to to to to to cancel that so I'm trying to understand this so the variance that you're looking for you're coming for a variance because the work has not been done or has the work already been done and now you're looking for the variance that's what I'm trying to understand so I I think the I I think the what what happened was you applied for building permits for your electrical and plumbing and things like that and those were approved and then when it you apply for a zoning permit the zoning officer uh identified that the existing garage or now pool house does not meet the required um setbacks so you're you're required to come to the board for for side yard setback variants uh for the pool house and you're saying the garage has already been been converted to a pool house correct yes okay and the for from from my review of the plan it looks like the the main house does not require any varing is adding your second story it does because of the setback is that is that they're extending the non-conforming setbacks vertically front and the side setbacks for they being extended vertically yes matching my all all my neighbors have the same have the same look so another question is are is the what's the intended use of the pool house is it are you going to rent it out or is it just for no pool there is a pool where's this ground pool but the the pool house we would we would probably not approve a pool house that look like this because you could rent it out resid right you've got to have more open area you can't have a kitchenet I don't know what it consists of I just to what how they didn't ask they went ahead and did the work well that was my question the fact everything was when we came in was asked for after they construct that's what it sounds like that was my main question yeah there there's not an approved permit then there was one was was requested but not approved correct it was well everything was when we applied for change of use that's when it yeah but it hasn't been approved has not been approved to change of use it was applied for after after the constru ruction that hasn't been approved because it needed zoning board approval is there uh heat and air conditioning in this uh bullous no there is air conditioning only Elric there's no there's no I pluming but everything was I I would suggest to the board since he did Jim didn't do any report didn't realize there was a second revised application that we carry it so we can do a full report so the board kind of knows what's going on that's a good idea can I ask for point of clarification also have you begun work on your home as the construction has begun on your home as well so we did construction on the pool wait wait stop please it's a yes or no qu answer did you begin construction on your home we did remodeling to the back house yes not not I no no we didn't the second level on the main home have you begun construction on that no no not at all I think it's just the only work done so far has been to the pool house and the pool house work did not need any permits all the workout all the work we didn't run new lines we didn't do anything what all it was it was pre-existing we had they had pluming but the inside wasn't preexisting no no no it was not pre-existing inside inside was completely renovated the inside inside we changed probably flooring right and I could go live there right now if if I wanted to it's yeah but I could I'm happy to show you pictures of I want to run away from all of my children it sounds like it sounds like Mr Higgins needs to review um only application I actually thought i' had done a report and then I saw a for the file and a report and I couldn't find it I the revised plans I've gotten the revised plans you have the name of the Builder so Mr Stein if we carry it's without notice correct yeah he doesn't have to re notice Mr SN do we have the name of the Builder here called out I put in all the all I I do my own I I'm I'm a carpenter by oh you are the carpenter yourself yeah I I do paint and okay so Mr SN it basically sounds like Mr Higgins needs to review the application so we're going to carry this to the next regular meeting or is um everyone in agreement to move to carry this to September 19 well I think they need to First yeah M Higgins needs to go out and also think the inspection department needs to go out and see what's being done there and if not a stop work or stre before we come back I just want to say um I have pictures of the place I I would say hold let's hold the pictures um because it sounds like there's an it sounds like Mr Higgins needs to review it and and let's carry it to September 19th if you do not have all the components then we'll Ren notice for the next meeting but at least it's it will be officially noticed Ren noticed carried with no new notice needed till September 19th so come back September 19th at 7 o'clock okay okay okay all in favor of that I'm sorry right so the varen is for the house you can't do that you have to wait till understand I want to make sure I because you did the PO housee right that's why just to be clear you can't start any any other construction until you come know if we would approve the school house I'm not I'm not saying we are or not going to I'm just sayings I thought for the second level though right guest houses are not permitted not you got to open it up on one side you got to do something so basically the application will come back September 19th and we'll have a report full report can we request of the applicant to bring the comp components that he needs pictures and anything else so we don't have to carry it again whatever is needed for the application I would suggest you bring in Mr Higgins will um obviously confirm with you okay so all in favor of carrying it to September 19th 7:00 p.m. any opposed okay so September 19th okay next case is Costco gas station 2361 Route 66 Ocean 07712 Block 141 Lots 12 and 23 Zone C4 applicant proposes to expand the existing gas station by adding three more dispensers in addition the applicant proposes to remove the raised curved Island located at the center of the fuel facility entrance also the drive aisle located along the entrance on the east side of the fuel facility is proposed to be widened adjacent to the warehouse in order to provide a two-way left turn lane lastly the applicant proposes to Mark certain upgrades to the Ada parking spaces on site um attorney is Mr John M marora and Mr Steinberg please forgive me um I did not ask in advance but if you have a membership are you oh I wouldn't think so I would if you know they can't cancel your M just double cheing i i i virtually say we all have m i don't just for the record wanted that mean we all have to recuse ourselves that's why triple check good question Mr I don't think there's a big Financial I'm being a okay thank you madam chair uh as you mentioned John marmura for the applicant Costco uh I've been involved with this property for many years been involved with the township on it for many years as well uh just quick background um we uh spoke with the town a while ago about the issues with the diamonds in the parking lot uh and I think as Mr Higgins noted in his report was a good idea at the time hasn't really worked out the Landscaping doesn't do well and it's a you know tripping Hazard and a snow plow Hazard so uh we'd like to do some improvements there uh at the same time uh we were asked to figure some out with the gas because on a busy Saturday it was backing all the way up to the ringroad um there's a problem there because you come as you come in off the Ring Road as I'm sure anybody who's gotten gas there knows you have to make that sharp right turn and then there was a utility structure right in the middle there so you sort of had to pick which side you were going to go on before you even barely got into the queue um and at this thirdly were were the Ada improvements were required under court order to get finished by the end of the year Township said we don't want to at this piece mail put it all together in one plan so that's what's kind of held everything up so we do appreciate the Township's patience we are asking for your Indulgence if you're inclined to approve the project which we hope you are uh for a phasing plan so that we can get the Ada work at least done this year but it is one project Mr to is Corporate executive from Costco he's a real estate development manager for the entire Eastern Division and he can explain that to you we don't want you think by phasing we might put the gas off um that is a critical component of the application but if you'd like to introduce yourself Mr to and uh explain to the board what your relationship to the project is and if you don't mind just um you can raise your right hand do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth yes I do okay uh good evening members of the board appreciate your time this evening my name is Nick to just want to get your name and address my name is Nick to uh 7902 pen pen in Place Alexandria Virginia 22308 uh I am the manager of Real Estate development for the Eastern Division uh of Costco Wholesale um Corporation we spell to to to t o s e okay Nicholas yes sir I learned tonight that's a cinjun name it is um so yeah as as John stated you know we have um the Ada that we are under a court order to have completed by the end of the year um that is being run out of our corporate headquarters out of isqua Washington with our legal and uh uh Architects out of there you know managing the the ADA compliance across the portfolio um I'm based out of Sterling Virginia for the Eastern Division um it came you know became known um hey we're getting ready to uh submit this site plan application for the Ada uh we said hey we're we're coming up on gas uh as well uh we had first said hey Ada is is way you know more important if if that's going to help things uh John said that I guess uh previously we had done something to that effect of two different projects um the the board was not uh pleased with that and so we uh you know combine them uh based on council's recommendation to you know show that you were heard and we're not just trying to come in here and do whatever the heck we we want to do um as such we broke it up into phases the phase one is the Ada components which are some stalls sidewalk and some Ada crosswalk uh and striping phase two being the gas expansion uh part of the reason you know with the phase one as well is you know those are broken off into bid documents that hopefully upon approval uh we have those ready to go to uh uh put out to a general contractor to uh get the pricing and and the phasing for that so it's it's a clean um clean break and we can get ready uh to do that um within Costco we also have our construction shutdown period which starts November 1 through the end of the year uh with the holidays so everything is you know importance of us trying to get that done beforehand um because of the severity of you know the uh the situation with the Ada it might go into that a little bit uh more and that would be you know one of the very few exceptions uh that we do going back into um the um you know our shutdown period and the approval process you know generally kind of tracking um I think we would tentatively plan to get a building permit uh for the the site proper of course you know assuming approval and site plan to building permit we'd probably be tracking best case scenario kind of December time frame which would not you know for for both of the projects which wouldn't really allow us to do uh the Ada work so we are absolutely um asking and hoping for um your help and consideration with us uh on the Ada component uh to John's Point as far as we're not going to you know do the uh uh the three card Monty of you know you approve this but then we're not going to do that um you know again with uh approvals to then uh building permit to being ready for gas um we generally put us in about the winter time frame uh for that uh in the Northeast in Florida we can start those a little bit earlier um we can't really start those operations uh in the winter time uh because of ground considerations you know ambient temperature um and the like so this is scheduled pending approvals to be done uh spring of 2025 um which again the plan as a total with the 88 component in there would would put us um you know outside of the uh uh the court order um you know stepping back a second with with the gas it sounds like many of you are are members um you know I would be lying if I said you know we didn't make some money off of the gas we we do uh it's not as much as as people think we do we are a publicly traded corporation uh this is in our our financials as well um roughly 90% of our uh Revenue our our profit comes from those memberships and so uh everything is geared around to the member I'm doing these projects all up and down the East Coast it is not necessarily in you know um the impetus is not about adding more gas to make more money it's about you know we when these were first started years ago um um and we kind of went small and the size of the pumps we didn't we had no idea about how successful uh it was going to become and and it certainly is and so with those backups with uh you know members waiting I'm a member you know to is you know waiting for those gas lines it really is geared around um more efficiencies uh getting the members in quicker um getting preventing those queuing backups um and you know it it's about the warehouse and the members and yes we do make some money but that is not the the overarching um uh desire or the reason that that we're doing these things um so um and this also is slated uh within our gas Ops um for you know pump equipment and ordering and and on our Master planning um it is you know scheduled pending approvals uh to start in the spring of 2025 that's about what we have by way of General introduction subject to questions from the I do have one question uh everybody here is aware that there are times when there's a significant backup of the traffic how does that affect the operation of the store um in well so uh it has a negative impact uh about I think we're tracking about 30% now um are gas only you know go um they just get gas and don't go in to the warehouse um we've got the data broken down a little bit more it does affect it because you know you know it's it's um hey I just want to get the gas I'm not going to go in and shop or you know um you shopped and you know on a Saturday and the last thing you want to do uh is go get gas um so there is you know uh a negative impact to a degree um the reality is though you know um I think as a member as well we kind of adjust um you know you need toilet paper need the rotis check in you need those things you know you're going to going to make time to do it and I'm thinking more along the same you are but also John you have a traffic expert that's going toy us for the problems with traffic going in and out because because it gets blocked up okay and and I can I can say then the the the Traffic Engineers are much smarter uh at that than I am there it is I don't know if this is so on yep um so yeah I um you know we're do these all up and down um the east coast and and our our traffic uh Engineers who have been doing our work about 20 25 years they are intimately aware of our operations um and what I would say is you know it's it's the common theme and a question um is it sometimes can seem counterintuitive that uh we already have an existing backup you're just going to be adding more gas so there is a linear relationship of compounding the problem uh how we address that and you'll see in our presentation is you know some of the relocation of the islands uh the spacing that we have uh within um the uh the islands to allow more efficient operations so um again it's not that linear hey adding more pumps just going to increase the backup um although with the capacity of this station as it is adding more pumps is going to help uh with the other lane you know of more members being able to actively get gas as opposed to sitting in the queuing and so the questions relating to to that and kind of how that you know actually works or or examples of that um I'll allow our traffic engineer to uh to speak to that okay so you'd be doing the ad work first and then so and that that that's what what our our we would hope uh to do that's that's what we're asking for and again you know what that mechanism would be um pending approval from from the board um you know is that a full sight plan is that you know going to a permit you know how how that would would go and it's the you know on the U the drawings that have been submitted if you see the phase one um it is you know a sidewalk around uh uh Ring Road there going to the side of the warehouse uh it is um restriping and reconfiguration of some ada8 to remove uh the diamond portions that are sticking into uh some of those um and so it's not it's not an extensive um amount of work are there any other questions for Mr to I have questions think they're going to be more towards the traffic engineer absolutely 100% we all agree okay thank you for that Mr cman our site engineer thank you very much for your time and while Mr kman is setting up um what I will tell the board um the law in New Jersey changed a year ago I think it was just about a year ago right now when Costco originally opened one of the reasons why gas became overrun the state of New Jersey came in and said you cannot exclude if you post a price for gas you cannot exclude members had to be open to the public and so we got clco got caught a little behind by that but the law changed last year and now they're allowed to uh limit gas service to members only so that does sort of cut back a little bit as well I'm sorry can you please spell your name I uh my name is Matthew kunsman KU and s m okay and you are the traffic no I'm the site civil engineer engineer and um if you can raise your right hand do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth I do okay and have you testified before this board before not before this board but other boards in this County okay and um can you just tell us briefly your credentials sure I have a bachelor in science and civil engineering from Syracuse University um I have a license in professional engineering state of New Jersey licensed in good standing and I'm employed at bowler engineering as a senior project manager okay we will accept a number of yes I have I suspend the question and answer format okay so this first exhibit is entitled aerial exhibit a prepared by bowler dated August 5th 2024 North is to the top of the patri your reference uh what this exhibit shows is the Costco um lease area lot so the Costco actually leases this U part of the lot so that's shown in red and then the yellow uh border is actually the um Regional you know c c View Square Mall so the total lot areas 127 Acres but the Costco lease area is 14 acres so instead of zooming way out you wouldn't really be able to see anything I figured we should zoom in just to the Costco area um the property is known as 2361 Route 66 block 141 Lots one and two um and it's within the C4 Regional commercial Zone uh surrounding uses of the property is C4 uses uh very similar es with commercial industrial um the existing condition so what you can see in the center of the site is the Costco warehouse uh the northwest corner of the property is where the gas station is uh you can see um existing conditions there's the islands at the Eastern end of the gas station and the western side of the gas station as well um in the parking lot there are 30 tree diamonds scattered throughout um that do not really have any Landscaping in them at this time and to the Northeast side of the proper of the warehouse there is the trash compactors and a trash enclosure area as well so what that oh and just one more thing about the gas station component there are six pumps with a total of 12 fueling positions um so when we have an addition there's going to be nine pumps 18 fueling positions so moving on to my next exhibit the other one was currently six pumps correct there are six pumps 12 fueling positions can you point out on that other exhibit where the pumps exist on that on the one in your hand this one uh referring back to A1 there're it's three wide so and then to deep thank you all right how would you describe this this is the overall site layout plan exhibit prepared by bowler dated August 15 2024 and North again is to the top of the page so what this exhibit shows is our site plan that was submitted as part of our application it's colorized with the land Landscaping superimposed um so we are proposing as part of phase one as mentioned before um Ada improvements so in the existing additions that most of the Ada parking spaces were clustered in one area so as part of the ada8 code um the parking spaces have to be closest to the front door so if you have a long row of parking that's adaa that one parking space that's the end the row that's further than another parking space that could be available for um soone has a Ada so with that we have um spread out the Ada parking spaces along the corner of the front entrance of the building um so that's part of phase one and then additionally we are proposing a sidewalk that connects um from the sidewalk along the Northwest portion of the warehouse and connects out to the Ring Road um where there's a bus stop so as a point entrance to the site you can take a bus use a sidewalk and then enter the the store can I ask a question is the sidewalk along the building at the southern end of the building being widened because it's very narrow there and for somebody to get through particularly if they're in a scooter or a wheelchair you can only go One Direction you can't go both directions sure the sidewalk is not being widened but it is ADA Compliant there is enough room for um in the 888 code I believe it's like 200 feet where you can go in a straight distance and be able to turn around or someone can pass you so there there would be enough room for that it's it is a a 5 foot wide sidewalk so typically when you have a um the the requirement is if you have a 4ot wide sidewalk then every 200 feet you need a 5 foot passing zone so it being a 5 foot wide sidewalk I think it I think it's fine it's a good point as well so that's what we're proposing in Phase One um now part of phase two is the gas canp expansion so as mentioned before it's three dispensers y to deep in existing conditions and now we're posing three additional pumps so a total of 18 fueling positions and with that we're also repositioning some the um dispensers to provide more room for cars to be able to um turn in and out before they're more cluster together closer together now we're spreading them out a little bit further so it's easier for cars to exit or enter have a question when you say cars that enter or exit are we reconfiguring the entrance and the exit of theity we we are doing that as well so um on this exhibit as you enter into the gas because the gas is only one way as many of you already know but you enter in on the Eastern side of the gas U there used to be a landscape Island right in the center and have two driveways in now we're removing that so it's no longer like a choke point where people aren queuing in those lines now they can uh what I'm talking about is if you're coming in from the road and turning in to go into the gas station sure okay that component is going to stay the same you're not widening the road in any way you're not making an additional entrance it's still the same way to get into the gas station anything you're doing is going to make more space once you enter that gas station area you're saying we are also modifying the road right next to it's really a driveway that connects to the Ring Road um we are sure so we are adding a turn lane um and it's for a couple reasons one allows um if you know the line was to get really long the gas station it would allow people to sit in the turn LAN rather than blocking the lane um and sitting um going north or or South so cars would be able to you know pass and the second one was we observed that the fuel truck delivering um the gas they had to enter into this gas area and there's underground storage tanks and making that maneuver very challenging in the existing condition so widening this road or driveway here allows more room and easy maneuver so so by adding the additional um six fueling stations you're going to make what you will do is eliminate six more spaces of cars that are waiting to get in basically I I should um elaborate we are expanding to the exit side so not the entrance side because you're expanding the exit you're going to get more Vehicles into that area you're going to still have to exit to come out and you're going to exit one at a time as yes so you're you're expanding area for them to come in and get the gas you're not expanding the entrance for them to come from the road from that back road there to get into the station they're still going to enter the same way the only expansion you're doing is where the islands are the islands are located so the expansion is within Islands itself not and you're you're widening that one way Road right there wi is that just give me a second all I'm not sure on top of my head how wide is existing but the proposed is 13 ft for one way 12 ft the center median area where you turn and the last the the lane closest to the warehouse is is 12 ft wide do we know the size of that road now I can measure it just I'm GNA try and beat you to it have an advantage who has everything out it's our version of the Olympics okay so so right now from the the curve line to the the island that's currently there it's uh 29 ft wide okay and then the the proposed the island is going to be gone but the uh between the the two curves near the exit it's going to be uh 36 ft wide is there any reason you can't arrange the fuel delivery when there are no customers there early in the morning that just seems so logical to me most of the time the the fuel delivery is really on demand when the tank levels get to a certain level they have to be refilled out so um okay yeah Nick you want probably a question for you so um fuel deliveries are generally twice a day um one of them is in the off hours uh when nobody is there based on demand we are running one during the day one in the evening as well on those off hours um and again demand based is we couldn't do them all at at the off hour's time um because then we would run short during the day up there question are you going to hire more employees um I because if we're not going to hire more employees to pum our hands it's not going to Ste process I mean as you know workers are slow to begin with and that kind of slows the process of people getting in and out of gas you know uh New Jersey is its own animal with the uh the pumping of of of the gas um you know um what I will say is you know we will uh obviously uh maintain uh any legal requirements however if that becomes a condition of approval we can address that then Mr kman um only because I just can't see and this is little large to open what is that that small rectangle where the current I um I just can't see what it is right where I'm poting yes what what is that so there's a fuel additive tank that's underground and it's a concrete pad on top it's there existing but we're repaving the whole area Okay so we're just pour new concrete as well on do you have any indication at all where the curb cuts are going to be in the sidewalk that you're adding um if you don't know that's okay I'm not sure what you mean by that so in order to be ADA Compliant you have to have curve Cuts sure and the sidewalks for the Scooters or the wheelchairs ramps with um trunky domes and they're all ADA Compliant okay but we have two for the two ramps with flush curb concrete flush curb looking at the intersection and then close to the warehouse there's another one that's ramp and I believe those are shown in the phase one break out of that all right a quick question about the the pumps so you'll go from basically two deep to three deep right so you could have three cars stacked getting fuel at once yes if car number one or a first one leaves is there will there be enough room for a car to navigate through to get to that a position or if they're still in front can car 3 or C get through safely yes that's why we're whing before probably not as easily without backing up that's why then we also have the red light green light uh component that we've added on there where it's it's a screen of uh you know at the airports of you know there's this many uh available spaces and so and that's standard practice that we're doing across our entire portfolio so you've got the queuing line there uh if there's two people in there's red if the one in front of you is vacant there'll be a green light on there and then you know having um I I will say as well um just cuz I've been going into this a lot um training has become uh an emphasis with our workers uh out there a lot and again um everybody's nodding noding their heads like I said I do these a lot everybody's a member um I've had those conversations with our higher leadership about um helping to ensure that they understand uh as it is right now uh the attendant's purpose is to um New Jersey they have to pump but in other regions it's you know to uh address any um generally elderly or disabled who might want assistance with pumping their gas uh immediately um you know addressing any uh fuel spills with you know dry sweep and then just generally if anything occurs uh what I've been doing a big push on and what we're doing is you know that training of actively if they're actively managing the traffic of not just standing out there but actively managing the traffic of uh hey you know there's a line here there there's there's a line here there's a line here everybody's nodding on that I I run into it all the time and and I have the Buy in from the Le senior leadership on that so um what I can tell you is that that is something that is actively um being addressed from the top down um as it stands right now each Warehouse uh manages their own plan and so you know this seems to be um something that's just been getting lost in the greater operations of everything else um and it's an opportunity for us to retrain our members our employees um in order to help the member so it is being addressed I think that if you do train your employees to properly address the traffic patterns and move quicker when they pump you're you're going to eliminate a lot of the traffic problem that we currently have right now because it's it really is I don't know if you've been to the to the site and waited there to watch the traffic and what goes on you can't get through it yeah I was there after I flew in through you can't get through the back road in any way shape or form you have to go all the way around um and everybody's everywhere and it's a mess it's people you know they wait online for a long time and I think the lines can probably quicker but that's you know something that you guys have to control with your employ 100% And you know in full disclosure as as well um like I said I I do a lot of these and I would appreciate if that didn't keep coming up and it's a low low hanging fruit that we we can address so uh you were heard and it's being worked on last question for me I'm sorry the I for I don't recall how it's situated now but um the pumps will be um basically or the the lines will be long enough to reach both sides of a vehicle so you can go on either side right yes all right can on the southern end of the pumps are looks like maybe there's three trees there in like a little green area is there a benefit of widening that out maybe even eliminating that to low more ER and then out of there um Costco does have an obligation as a tenant U to maintain a certain amount of parking in their release area so we are pretty much right at that maximum amount of well the way I'm seeing that I don't think you eliminate any parking you just eliminate maybe two trees and whatever the that green areas so one of the things that that we're concerned with is making sure that we're not um increasing the amount of impervious right now the as the plan is shown there's a decrease in the impervious surface uh I think it's 167 Square ft um and that's that's one of the things that that needs to be maintained uh to make sure that we don't increase the impervious because the original approval of the entire um site was approved with a certain amount of of impervious surface so we don't want to have to go back to you know the original plans and storm water management so we're we're trying to keep the uh maintain the existing impervious or reduce it so we're keeping the trees and in addition to that there's a lot there's a lot of landscaping going in as part of a plan yes so just to close out removing these islands on each side of the gas Cy it does require a variance um as part of our conditional use of being a gas station um it has to have perimeter Landscaping so removing those two islands does require a variance um as discussed it you know provides removing those islands allows cars to Q easier um more efficient layout so that's why we're requesting that variance additionally um we have to request a variance for not providing a trash en closure like a Ming block or fenced in trash and closure by the the gas station um similar to what how the site's functioning today uh there are trash bins at the dispensers U the employee would just have to um collect the trash at the end day or middle of day whenever it's needed and then take it to uh the rear of the warehouse and use those trash enclosures so we are requesting a variance for that as well we are also proposing to remove the 30 tree diamonds as mentioned throughout the parking lot uh we are proposing 31 new trees throughout the site so you can see them in green on this rendering um so for a total we are removing 4557 square feet of landscape but we are um adding back 4,724 square feet Landscaping the numbers again you're removing numbers uh 4,500 he tells me that we I have right there okay I got it okay I got it yes and as part um providing more Landscaping by 167 Square ft we are removing um seven parking spaces um located on the Eastern portion of our lease area I have them um shading in green and those parking spaces are really for what was previously that the Amazon facility but it's within our lease area so they're not really being utilized by uh Costco members they be but you would to cross the main Drive aisle and they're really meant for that prior Amazon facility so question Mr hiin in your report it says here removal of a total of 6,665 Ft of landscaped area no that's that's based on an older plan that's an older report okay report he revised it yeah yeah so we are um removing seven parking spaces in total um the required amount for the whole entire shopping center that's how the calculation is done is 4,285 parking spaces and we are proposing 4,233 spaces and uh we are doing that because of landscaping providing uh more perious surfaces produces less STM run off and additionally uh with the Ada reconfiguration it does take up more space so you lose some parking spaces with that as well and additionally uh the parking lot um the majority of the parking lot is being milled and overlaid as well so there will be new uh pavement and new striping um for the Costco parking lot as part of the phase two yes uh for utilities there's no real impact uh no really increase in demand um for the expansion um for storm water management we are not a major development as defined by the njd but we are decreasing impervious surfaces so um there will be less storm runoff leaving the site in proposed conditions all right I'm G to move on to before you move on can can you just address the the lighting the lighting yeah I can okay um so we are requesting uh two variances uh for the lighting of the gas canopy um the ordinance requires flush mounted oh sorry recessed light fixtures and a canopy we are proposing flush mounted it's similar to what's out there today um so we are requesting a variance it's really expansion of the existing not Conformity so that's why we're requesting that variance and the second one is um the spillage of uh the foot candle value on the property line so 0.25 foot candles is uh permitted and we have 2.5 foot candles that's occurring at the gas uh next to the gas station um but with that the that lot line is really a lease line so we did notice and propose a variants but um we may not need it but we're just being conservative make sure we get that variance request and the lights go off when though do you know somebody knows those lights are not on the 2.5 doesn't exist all night long I I don't think so I think it' just be security lighting yeah I mean I would think so the lights are not on something's on though I don't know what I I think when it when the gas Services stops it's just security lighting from nothing so it's only when when gas services in operation okay what time does the gas station close I think an hour after the store closes or something like that that's when you go that's the best but it's approximately a half hour an hour after about an hour I I I don't know the specific warehous so I can I can check it's it's approximately that so it's not on past that yeah it's I I agree with the testimony that uh I'm not sure of the legality of it but the um it is like a lease line instead of necessarily A Lot line and the the light spillage is just onto uh the neighboring Drive aisle so I don't really have an issue with it why can't you do the recess lighting though um I believe the the the facade of the uh it's a really a metal facade and inside it's um think might we have our architect here answer that question I was trying to skip through it but uh for TR for effort thank you okay oh sorry um and I guess the last thing I will hit is the the landscaping again uh we are requesting a variance for the uh the tree diamonds being removed that is a requirement but we are providing 31 new trees throughout the property and we have received um a letter from believe it was enir the site tour and site plan review I'm not sure it was environmental commission um we have addressed those comments um by substituting the types of trees U proposed okay any questions for Mr kman additional questions I have a question from Mr matlack do do we really care about the recess lights is it a hill to die on here no okay it's and I think the testimony was it matches what's there currently so I don't think it's an issue okay thank you well I can touch on the architecture wall if we want to yeah yes so this is A3 so we're not touching the building go just doing simp parking lot and the gas the yes sir so this is H proposed fuel elevations prepared by mg2 dated November 28 2023 so this uh plan shows uh the elevations of the gas canopy expansion um so starting from the top you have the east west side elevations so this shows um either entering into the gas uh facility or exiting that view um so you see the three uh y gas dispensers and then moving down the page so you have the North and South elevations this would be the opposite so from the side view um we are showing uh new signs uh so two signs one on each side of the gas canopy they are centered on the gas canopy and they're compliant and this also shows uh the expansion uh with the three deep gas dispensers and we we'll be matching uh similar materials metal fasia um so what's out there existing the record of project architect is here if you do want to okay and that is it thank you if you don't mind just sharing your microphone um the architect if you can um state your name Brian Kendall and with mg2 Corporation I we the architect for Costco I've been doing this for 18 years with Costco I'm a licensed architect here in New Jersey and I have not appeared before this board but I appeared before several different boards in New Jersey okay and do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth I do yes okay um are there any questions for the architect it's okay if you don't but I'm here just for the record okay doesn't sound like there are thank you thank you okay Mr mar mar questions f a h i i m fem okay and Mr fem if you can um raise your right hand do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth I do okay and have you testified before this board before no not before this board but numerous boards all over the state of New Jersey okay can you just tell us about your credentials please sure so uh my name is Dave I'm a project manager at Atlantic traffic I've been an engineer for roughly nine years I have a degree from Ruckers University and with civil degree as well as a degree in mathematics from Stockon University okay I'm licensed PE my license is currently active okay we'll accept can I just spell your last name oh sure f is in Frank ah i m is in Mary David David yes right explain to the board what your relationship to this sure so uh I'm the traffic engineer on the project we've been working with Costco closely to try to uh see what the issues currently are at the gas station today and how we can uh with this Improvement accommodate any issues that are currently happening so uh just to reiterate you guys touched on really a lot of my testimony through previous testimony but yeah we're going we're looking to go from a 12 fueling position facility to 18 uh the extension would go on the exit side so that's a better option because it allows more stacking within the facility and then also so with the removal of that 35 foot wide island in the middle that would allow for even more stacking so I'll just quickly go over a little bit of what our research included and what our findings are so our office collected uh turning movement count data at uh intersections along Ring Road so we looked at the intersection with roller Road as well as the uh the CCO egress portion of the driveway uh along with the Costco Ingress and egress portions of the actual fuel facility itself uh we collected that data back in June of 2023 and we looked at the data to try to figure out what the worst case scenario was for the critical peak hours so critical Peak we look at the morning commuter the evening commuter and then the Saturday afternoon so once we determine what the critical peak hours are that's what we use to study um so typically for a Costco facility it's usually we uh use the industry standard which is the research data provided by The Institute of Transportation Engineers or it um but there's not a similar land use that is within that research set of data so what we've done like throughout the years with our company working with Costco we've researched a lot of Costco facilities and just used site specific data so that's exactly what we did here we wanted to use site specific information for our report um and as we keep as we you know as we progress Costco over the years has noticed you know an increase in their activity at the fuel facilities which of course you guys have seen so uh with the expansion that's kind of where Costco is heading for a lot of their sites they want to make sure that any sites that experience any kind of issues they want to try to mitigate that by expanding the the gas station area so on top of data that we had collected at the existing site at Ocean uh we also consulted with the Costco gasoline operations team who's responsible for collecting research at a lot of locations throughout the throughout North America um so similar to what Nick mentioned earlier it's not really a linear increase when you look to add fuel dispensers so like a an example that isn't data that we collected uh just something easy so there were six fueling position or yes six fueling positions at a gas station that generated 100 trips if we were to double it it wouldn't generate 200 trips it would only generate about 60% of that so that's what we found through the research through Consulting with uh the gas operations team so because it operates any additional traffic at about a 60% rate we're really looking at so with the data we collected we saw a maximum of 183 Vehicles entering the fuel facility on a Saturday typically your Saturday is your busiest time at Costco for the gas station so 183 trips entering when we app that factor based on that research we're really only looking at an additional 56 trips entering now 56 trips may sound like a lot but this peak or for the day uh for the peak peak hour what are the peak hours the peak hours sure so the am peak hour was observed to be 9: to 10:00 a.m. uh PM peak hour was 5:15 to 6:15 p.m. and the Saturday peak hour was from 11:45 to 12:45 PM I have a question for you sure the 183 yes you're saying that would add an additional 56 to that correct that's during the peak hours only that's during the peak hours and I'm really just focusing on Saturday because that's the worst Saturday yes Saturday hour just to give you a worst case of all the studies yeah so so Saturday peak hours are from 11:45 to 12:45 that's correct that's your your biggest imp of traffic coming in exactly you don't you don't have um numbers on other days uh just on the day that the day we collected so we collected on a Thursday um we typically like to study a Tuesday Wednesday or a Thursday because it's not like Monday and Friday it's a little bit skewed some people take a longer weekend some people like to leave early so we always study those days so we just have the data from the one Thursday we collected and the one Saturday and what was it Thursday it was Thursday June 8th 2023 and were the the amount of cars for the entire period or for the peak hour for the peak hour for Thursday so for that Thursday we looked at the am peak hour was 132 Vehicles entering and the PM peak hour was 167 Vehicles entering the facility and that number of the additional 56 for Saturday would that be the same number for Thursday as well no it would be uh an additional 41 anticipated because it's based on the amount of volume that we observed and then multiplying it by that rate so looking at 41 additional entering trips during the morning 54 during the p.m. and then 56 on Saturday so you're anticipating in one hour only on a Saturday approximately 200 cars coming in for gasoline correct one hour yeah during the during the peak hour right and that is not including any other time of the day all of the other vehicles correct yep it's just it's it's the busy speak hour I understand it sounds a lot it doesn't sound it is right I'm just sure so during that that peak hour where you're going to have these this influx of cars which is a lot of cars um that back coming into Costco okay A lot of people do try to enter that way and sure people come from the other way how do how are we going to manage all this traffic that's that's going one fueling area the AR going in problem traffic jam you know people getting upset with each other right so that would that problem would exist um today because there's a lot of backups that happen on the road correct right and I'm uh I'm going to get into a little further in testimony that okay so uh really just kind of jumping on to that so when we look so the 56 additional Vehicles we break that out to three different trip type classifications so again through extensive research that our office had done through many Costco sites in the Northeast uh we collected uh surveys at the existing Costco fuel facilities all the way from New Jersey up to like Massachusetts we've done data collection um and we found three different trip types so there's a new trip there's a passby trip and then there's an internally captured trip um just for definition if you guys don't know um uh new trip is really a customer who enters the gas station for the sole purpose of just getting gas and then going back to their original uh point of origin uh a pass by trip is really like a secondary stop where a motorist is going to make uh a trip into the gas station while they're in route to another destination and then an internally captured trip is a trip that uh is uh captured within the network from somebody who either already went to the warehouse or is planning on going to the warehouse so they were already going to be a trip within the network and of course as this is a member's only fuel facility it's only natural that the ma the overwhelming majority of the trips that we expect at the fuel facility are internally capture trips so in terms of new traffic coming from outside the network and into the area we're only of the 56 entering trips it's really only 13 external trips that we expect because of how much internally captured traffic uh happens within the Costco warehouse and fuel area so I'll keep going into the really the vehicle queuing because that's really what this is all about um so the existing gas area can store about 40 Vehicles before backing onto the uh main Drive aisle and that also those 40 Vehicles includes the ones that are currently being fueled uh under future conditions it's looking the storage would be increased to about 48 Vehicles can be stored so that's with the additional six that could be stored on the new fuel dispensers located toward the exit of the site Plus an additional couple uh where the existing median was in the middle of that uh entering area so so now we're going from 40 to 48 it's able to stack more vehicles within it um and then with the expansion like of the fuel dispensers uh our office prepared a stochastic queuing analysis of the area uh and that looks at several things like the number of lanes uh the arrival rate of vehicles and the service time um and with that we found that we would expect under future conditions with the extended fuel facility uh 42 Vehicles so under future conditions we're seeing that uh we would expect the worst case scenario that Saturday situation to actually be maintained on site because you're allowing more vehicles to be serviced at a much more efficient rate especially with the longer hoses that were mentioned as well as the overhead lighting on top of the gas station um can I ask a clarifying question just to help I'm over here um to drive that home so Peak right now about 180 on a Saturday sure and with the improvements you think it'll add about 50 in an hour the reason correct me wrong this is how I'm thinking I understand it sure the reason 50 more cars will go there is because they'll see shorter lines it'll be easier for them to go in and it's just by adding pumps doesn't automatically pull 50 cars into that in an hour there 50 more trips there because it's an easier trip to make at that point right it's a convenience thing that's kind of with the internal capture trips I was talking about it's they're already at the warehouse and then they see oh okay the line's not too bad let me jump into the uh fuel area and get serviced okay um have you done uh have you done this work with other gas stations in this area by any chance uh no just how does how does this compare to other big name gas stations on a peak hour I mean if tell yeah off the top of my head I don't have that kind of information but just holistically I would imagine because it's a Members Only it wouldn't be as uh much of a demand as it was just a general gas station off the state roadway thank you question on you didn't go out on a Sunday we didn't study the Sunday no okay because this area is kind of a unique area there's quite a few people that shop on Sundays because they don't shop on Saturdays okay and one of the things I'd like maybe for the board to consider as a restriction i' like to see somebody out there Saturday and Sunday just doing nothing but directing traffic to those spots I I don't care how quick you pump the gas if people can't queue up I may I may have missed it the problem is there's no organization out there there's no one organizing these cars coming in and out it's complete M se you know not not a gas attendant but somebody's just sole job is I you see it all the time at uh with Chick-fil-A they have somebody out there that's yeah I think with the overhead lighting adding that efficiency so vehicles are able to pull into any open spot yeah what the lighting did I miss it or did you testify how long each vehicle will be at the pump from the time they pull up he did not service and what what is the amount of time that did yep I could I could tell you our what we found from our data give one second yeah so we observed a service time of of average service time at this location about 3.93 minutes to from when they initially pull in to when they finally pull out yeah that's consistent with your 200 an hour that's that's what I wanted to know okay this wouldn't be for you but maybe for some the pumps themselves there are like high flow pumps versus like does anybody know like the are they like high flow pumps are not like the slow ones that are going to take 20 the record that was Mr to confirmed that they are high flow pumps so um I'll just I have just one last thing I just want to wrap up finally so uh like I mentioned before we did that stochastic queuing analysis to determine that under future conditions we would look at around 42 Vehicles where we would be able to accommodate 48 on site so we don't anticipate Vehicles backing up um and really just to confirm that uh we studied two additional cost locations unfortunately they're not in New Jersey they are in North Carolina and South Carolina but they experienced a similar expansion to what we're doing 12 to 18 fuel positions so we looked at that after um where they had the 18 in effect and it we were looking at a maximum of only 28 vehicles in demand at those facilities after the expansion so even still obviously with the 28 we'd be able to more than accommodated but with our conservative stochastic modeling uh we're estimating about 42 which still we expect to be accommodated on site uh and that's really the end of my direct testimony okay any questions for Mr fim just to um just drill down on the internally captured is is the the point in differentiating those trips to identify cars that may be coming from we'll say the East rather than the Ring Road yeah correct it's really to just show that it's not going to be so much Demand on the Ring Road and roller Road uh that one would expect it's mostly really just coming from the Costco site going north and turning left into the fuel facility which is another reason too why we had that extended uh Center turn lane to accommodate those Vehicles got it okay one other question I think you said in the beginning it's going to go from two lanes to three lanes correct yeah the the and what dire are two of them going to be inbound one outbound or how how's that going to work well I again because there's no there's only the Costco warehouse wall on the other side so it would only be really focused on the Northbound side so it would allow the vehicles that go Northbound want to turn left into the Costco they'll be able to not get in the way of any vehicles that need to go through and out onto the major roadways but there's three lanes so along the Costco building North so that would be one lane other two Lan where they going one of them is a left turn and then the other one is the right yeah the center turn lane is primarily going to be used for Northbound lefts into the fuel facility and then the uh Western most Lane is going to be southbound um exiting the the gas lines now right now you have that island that blocks the basically the center all the center lanes that are exiting so people as they exit they have to go left or right to go to the spaces that allow you to go out to the driveway there what's going to happen now they're going to all go straight out and will there be stop bars there so the people will stop and they won't be yeah so at the end of the fuel fa freefor all right it's not going to be a freefor all there we do have stop bars proposed at the end of the fuel facility okay so there will be adequate uh signage and lanes and everything yes okay the left turn lane they were talking about it looks like it's one of those like um two left turn Lanes is the intent of that to kind of not necessarily I guess maybe deter people from trying to go make make it two lanes going out and just identifying one as just a only a left turn lane correct yeah it's so what we're trying to accomplish with that Center turn lane is yes for the Northbound left vehicles to be able to enter into fuel facility efficiently but as uh Matt previously mentioned before it's also to help with the truck or the fuel movements to get into the uh Costco fuel facility as well so um that northern part that's gored off that's the area that we would look to have that accommodated any other questions for Mr fim okay thank you all thank you our planner who will address the variances okay and Mone if you can raise your right hand do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth yes okay and you've testified before this board previously yes I have testified here a few times and about 450 other planning and zoning boards throughout the state of New Jersey been practicing as 20 for about 28 years as an expert witness in New Jersey and my licenses are current and valid well that thank you thank you so would you like to just take a run through the variances yes Mr cman our engineer did go through them earlier we do need two deviations from the C3 or from the uh conditional use standards in the C4 zoning District which is why we're here and the zoning board has jurisdiction it's not that the Zone doesn't allow this use so we don't have to testify to things that you'll hear on a d variants like particular suitability and the omission of the use from the Zone plan rather the proofs when dealing with a D3 variance for unmet conditional use standard is absent compliance with those conditions does this still remain a proper or an appropriate location for the use um and then we do need the two bulk variances as Mr konsman indicated one is for the overall number of parking spaces um we are required to have 4,285 we have 4,240 and then the other um is for the diamonds you require them every seven spaces and we're proposing to have them at 30 spaces so those are the two bulk variances what about the lighting or any of that they're not bulk variances um the that was mentioned earlier I is that I well I think the engineer testified to that I I understand to testify but you do need VAR do we do need actual variances is it a variance or is a I think those are design okay the fles lighting and the parking lot lighting is in the designed standard section of the ordinance right so that would be we talked about yes so then the test there becomes meeting the intent of the ordinance so if there's any violation not actually they're not correct I would consider those waivers and the test is do we meet the intents of your ordinance with regard to lighting so um again Mr konsman testified that the two deviations with regard to the conditional use standards are for the trash and the garbage recycling the areas which are essentially going to function as they do now and then for the perimeter landscape which we're removing so that we can improve and facilitate the access to and flow through um this sensor I'm sure as you have all asked in your questions it's abundantly clear that you are familiar and have been to the site many times as have I this is I would say this and the Grove and Shrewsberry are probably two of the sites that when I testify on I can say I've literally been to hundreds of times there's not a lot of sites that I can say that this is one of them I am in fact a Costco member and I do come here a lot so um I understand you know the implication so you know as planners what we're really focused and what we do right the land you requires it is we have to do a balancing act and do the benefits outweigh the detriment when you get to the negative criteria portion of the planning proofs I have to testify the applicant has to provide you proofs and the board has to evaluate and the standard is not to hold the applicant to a standard that there's no detriment from the application the standard is are the betterments going to out weigh any detriment so I think here in this case when you look at the fact that we are introducing dozens of trees onto the site we're reducing impervious coverage ever so slightly we are improving the access to and the flow through the traffic um to the site I think Mr Fuller made a great point and that yes we are going to increase in the peak hour by 50 trips however it's going to be because people may now want to come there because they will see things hopefully if this application performs the way we as an applicant expected to it should have perform better than it does today which will hopefully then bring more people there to be gasoline customers um so that's our test again and we think that the betterments here do outweigh any detriments I think when you look at what is the stated purpose in the C4 zoning District so reviewing section 2138 of the Township's um zoning ordinance it states specifically the purpose of the C4 District is to allow the development of regional shopping facilities which offer multiple retail commercial office and service operations in an area with convenient major highway access so I think this application is perfectly aligned with that beyond that stated purpose in the zone plan your master plan which was last reexamined in 2023 has a goal in it which talks specifically about um and I thought this was a pretty clever goal to allow flexibility for the preparation of adequate guidelines for future development and restoration of commercial areas and you know among other things and industrial areas and I think that that's important when you look at the fact that the C4 is one of the um you know it is recommen it's recognized as one of the more intensive commercial zoning districts in Ocean Township so restoring and and looking at and giving some attention to those areas in that zoning District um and allowing them to function better to me aligns with that goal in the master plan about restoration of our commercial areas so I think we do need some varant relief here I would consider it pretty di Minimus in light of the benefits that the applicant is hoping and intending and I think will be successful in achieving with this application so statutorily I think we meet our burden of proof with respect to the D variant for the noncompliance with those two conditional use standards as well as the two c variances I think as far as approves for the C variances the board can look at both the C1 and C2 criteria and what that means is the C1 has to deal with um the hardship criteria right and that is either the shape or the size of a piece of property or the structures lawfully existing thereon so this is an application that was granted conditional use approval previously so the applicant is sort of you have to deal with what you have on the site so certainly that pre presents some practical difficulties um at least with complying with the the parking um and those diamonds that exist there today and I would say you know creating parking spaces every seven or creating Diamond Islands every seven spaces versus 30 is very inefficient uh the township of ocean is not the first community that I've been asking for a relief from that because it just doesn't really lend to a great efficient layout um of a parking area so I think and under the C2 section of the statute if you weren't convinced that the C1 is applicable um the C2 is called the flexible C so you can grant bulk variances if you find that one or more purposes of the land use law is Advanced I think three are Advanced criteria G H and M criteria g talks about sufficient space in appropriate locations um criteria H talks about promoting the free flow of traffic and criteria M talks about an efficient use of the land I think this use is appropriate it's it's certainly conditionally um zones to be here and it aligns with the purpose of the C4 Zone so that's why G is appropriate H the free flow of traffic um we're making we're improving it we're doing doing our best we can to impr improve the traffic flow and then criteria m in efficient use of the land um there's a reason why as planners we encourage you to revitalize your existing commercial areas because that is consistent with um not having urban sprawl and degradation of the environment so those statutorily we would only need to advance one to invoke the C2 section of the statute but I think that those are Advanced so that is essentially my testimony I do believe that we meet the statutory burden of proof for both the DNC variances associated with this application and that the board can grant the relief with no substantial detriment to the Zone plan or the public good which is the test that's our last witness any questions from the board all are still here there any variances related to the Ada compliances that you're doing I don't believe so I don't think so Mr seinberg it may drive a little bit of the parking variance yeah they because they're eliminating some of the parking spaces to provide new another piece well that would be then criteria we can Loop in criteria a promoting the general welfare welfare is what I meant to say Mr Steinberg four purposes of the land use law including criteria a that's exactly what I meant to say because obviously Ada is absolutely from General general welfare and the amount of parking spaces you're living or the Minimus absolutely I don't know who would testify but there's more than sufficient parking isn't there on well Mr in his review letter Mr Higgins I believe finds that uh the rose parking was more than sufficient I believe um on page three I don't want to speak for him because he's right there but he um finds no uh he said it is clear that the benefits of the gr of the varant St outweigh the def and Rel reles it to a 1.4% shortage so okay yeah Ada trumps that so and that was from his August 6 2024 review of the application I have only two minor clarifications to the the testimony was given one that the 2023 master plan was not a re-examination it was an a full comprehensive master plan and the issue of the Diamonds the diamonds are required every seven spaces they're not being Prov in every 30 spaces there are 30 diamonds being removed so there's but repl with have 40 spaces between diamonds that the diamonds are all being removed okay other than that I agree with re diamond in the C4 any other questions all our wit if you can just grab the microphone back how are we Pi up we can't we can't can you speak up I can't I know that we talked about can you hear me yes yeah that's I know we talked about um uh people probably want to get gas because they see that the flow of traffic is moving quicker is that how we're picking up the additional 56 right it's that and then vehicles that are traversing along the Ring Road that'll that'll see the fuel facility as well maybe some new Costco members it's a mix of a lot of different things and now the other question is that you said uh the average gas pumping time once they get to the pump they put the pump in the car it's about 3 and a half minutes roughly yeah I think it was just under four minutes right under four minutes do do you expect that to decrease because of the extra pumps or increase because I'm trying to understand how we're going to maintain that or decrease it with without hiring additional gas Pumpers right so if we if we were to hire additional gas Pumpers we would look at a I would imagine we would look at a decrease but our analysis we assumed that the fueling um service time would be the same in existing to new conditions and then we just all we just added in additional fuel dispensers so so your your time you're expecting it to stay about the same three and a half minutes exactly yes so you plan on increasing the Flow by about 56 cars but you're pumping you're still uh pumping the same amount of time for each car that comes up right we're P well we're going to be pumping an additional uh six Vehicles out every four minutes so you're going put six Vehicles right so it's able to the the capacity and the supply will be increased there of course did you want to comment yeah yeah do I need to get re for the record Mr Mr T and so to that point as well um you know we deal in I don't want to say worst case scenarios but uh not being overly optimistic with the data that we present to you uh what we have seen uh across our portfolio is that in fact we do get a slight reduction uh in those uh durations from the spacing from the red light green light you know um because whereas before people will be standing there and that's you know extending that out um we have seen we do see a a reduction we anticipate that but for the purposes of the data and what's presented uh we don't um you know cherry pick or you know go overly optimistic um and then you know fail do we know how many attendants are there now on the weekends or is there anybody from the store here that uh there's not anybody from from the Ware house here right now um I I don't know what I can I can find out I believe it's two or whatever is mandated by um New Jersey Law my experience is there's like six at at the peak hours okay one for each pump pumping side of an island so you have two per Island you have three islands okay any other questions okay are there questions or or comments from the public if you can please I please request the courtesy the people that are sitting there on the committee their microphones professional microp I could not many the questions I request that courtesy of your committee okay are there any other questions or comments from the public Madam chair use your microphone get a you want conditions of approval when at what time should we voice those well after if we have any other questions or comments any other questions or comments from the public okay um I believe there's a request from a board member to if we were to Grant approval um to have some discussion about parameters or I'll say param or condition I would like a condition placed on the Saturday and Sundays during operating hours that someone's there directing traffic or an extra attendant there that's handling traffic flow the sole job is handle traffic flow the peak hour somebody there well I went the peak hour was 11:45 to 12:45 or something like that right the Saturday people was 11:45 to 12:45 and we don't find out we could identify what the Sunday Peak is so I then I would say from been there on a Saturday or Sunday I I I would say at least 10 I having somebody you're not going to get somebody come in for an hour have you been there on a Saturday or Sunday with gas it's not just an hour yeah I'd propose 10 to um 4 yeah I agree six hours is that a stipulation that we can put regarding employees because we can require the applicant to comply with a condition of approval condition of approval okay I'm only thinking again like what's our role and in terms of enforcement that's the only part that I'm thinking about but are there other board members who have comments about that request I believe Saturday and Sunday 10 to 4: is the request yeah I wouldn't favor reest support I wouldn't would like to clarify that that attendant would also be permitted to pump gas to just stand there because that I think we do have the red light green light system yeah you you testified that you would have people directing people um and you'd have the red light green light I I I don't need anything more than that testimony other board members so strictly there to jerk traffic not pump gas are there any other board members that need that for an approval I believe that um we do need someone to direct traffic because I've been there many times on a Saturday and a Sunday and it's very difficult to navigate through that part of the town sorry can you hear me it's very difficult to navigate through that part of the uh parking lot when there's um an over abundance of traffic there okay and uh you have pedestrians that are walking around you have people with these big shopping carts you have people with bigger carts when they have bigger bigger things that they buy and they're you know they're they're navigating to their vehicles at the same time as cars are navigating through trying to get through the parking lot um exiting and entering not only for the guest but for the club itself and you have to understand that that roadway that um that comes into the parking lot of Costco from the back is not only for Costco people use that entrance for the entire shopping area there there's other stores there there's other facilities there and we have to take all this into consideration because the only traffic is not going to be just for gas there's other traffic that comes through there that's why I believe we need some sort of navigation for traffic and I agree that we do need somebody there someone there Saturday and Sundays which is the biggest and and uh peak hours of um of the traffic for the facility okay so that's I agree I think we need a mechanism in place to direct traffic on those two days I we're trying to oh no go ahead go ahead we're trying to balance the interests of you expanding your business and the ocean residents and and protecting them and the flow of traffic and the people in the parking lot and I think that's a fair compromise okay Mr marmore before you um uh chime in so there are eight of us I just want to make sure I'm only hearing from three that they would require this for their vote for approval are there any others that would require this because three is not a majority of well you would need you need five votes five votes of seven who's the alternate here I'm the alternate he's an alternate you won't get to vote of the other seven people is there anyone else who would require that as a condition for their vote for approval I agree with Mr fer and I think I think we're here to alleviate the traffic and let's give it a chance to work maybe if it doesn't work though you can't go and amend it later and I would tell I I get the whole automated part but anybody's been to the supermarket and try to use the automated check out and think that that's quicker than having a person there I'm sorry it just I'm in a business that where we've eliminated all staff and where it's automated and it just it just doesn't work you got to have some human it sounds like the problem you're describing though is different than what what Mr Delo is describing so then we're going to have to have somebody in by the by the pumps but then also out in the street where the the turns are quite frankly Costco did that about two years ago and it didn't work so they sto doing they had people out there directing traffic they're actually directing people around to the southern end through the drive aisle between the parking spaces to have them come back around and having the people there directing traffic didn't work so they stopped doing it was that to to park to go into the store or to the U the gas station gas station I think it was during Co what can the store propose well I I would respectfully give us a chance um the improvements we're proposing plus the red light green light I one gas attendant would be asked to to go out and direct traffic if it was necessary but just have one dedicated person standing there the entire time all improvements I just think is anticipating failure and I just don't think that's fair at the moment we're doing a lot to improve it I I respectfully ask that we'd be given a chance to show that it would work okay so based upon what I'm hearing from board members there are not enough to support that as a condition can make a suggestion yes um Mr Steinberg let me know if there's something that you could figure out when it comes to parking in certain situations we Bank parking right we say we'll start with this and if it if if there's a need that's demonstrated in the future we'll go to that is there something we is there something we can do where we we visit this that if the traffic situation is not alleviated by all the improvements of that they would then provide for some sort of a traffic director what is what what is the definition of alleviated then that's you know I think goes to to the next thing is is you know I do this you know and I I put it this way too as you're dealing with a lot of councils you know if it's feasible well you know there's a lot of things that are feasible with enough money you know um so having a clear definition of what is successful I think um is is I would think that there'd be no spill into the uh roadways correct that that's that's I think you you would have to have some sort of Municipal Authority make a determination that Costco has to have people out there directing traffic now I think that would be the police department yeah can we ask maybe Traffic Safety after a certain number of months after the these improvements are made to I don't know if traffic safety is that the main I don't know if they'll go on private property to make that decision what I would offer is is that it be roller road if there's an impact on roller Road perhaps something like that well could we just use local police to help Dr traffic you know have have local law enforcement just on the Ingress side at least maybe not in the islands but at least on the Ingress side during those peak hours that's expensive and and I'm not convinced it's going to be needed I'm just trying to help the folks that have a concern uh know that this will be somehow Revisited just just check if there's a creative way we can do it if back the R I think traffic enforc legitimate basis to require C do but that happens now yeah it's already happened I know it happened there's cars that are backed up on Ring Road now all the time no so Mr Steinberg can you well there is something we can do about it we can deny the the application and and then you have a situation you have now yeah but it's so but if I may I mean I think to that to that point is you know um we have a condition now which everybody says is a problem what we are proposing we absolutely believe will be an improvement a denial will keep the condition that everybody already agrees is an issue and so um you I I would I would submit that the other thing that I I will say is you know if you is we are willing to you know after um you know 6 months I can go back and see what you know we generally have done uh we will provide uh the board with a traffic study after the fact after these improvements have been made um to be able to to quantify these things that that we have told you right now and again to see that Improvement I would like to um suggest another condition then that's immediate because we are adding more cars and we are adding more pumps and the realistic possibility of traffic building on the street and backing up on the road is inevitable so I would like to have you hire more attendants and have them on at all times you have three extra pumps that's six sides and if you don't have more attendance on it as Mr Doma was suggesting it's not going to improve the speed that you get the cars through you should have at a minimum three extra attendance on and six at peak hours you can't say that without know with the num is right now yeah so Mr Steinberg I guess can we have a condition where um a report will be provided six months after completion I don't know for review but then again I don't so let's let's think it forward if we approve the applications um and have a condition that 6 months mons after this is fully operational 6 months after this is fully operational um the opan is required to provide a traffic study and if there is um spillage into the Ring Road guess that that's the criteria isn't it spillage into the Ring Road that the applicant will be obligated to either hire more employees or make a plan acceptable to the board for traffic direction I respectfully disagree if you're adding more pumps and more cars are coming through you are definitely going to have more traffic through you need more people I don't want to report 6 months down the line that's a problem are there any other board members that would require that for a condition of approval yes I would require additional gas attendance um to help the flow of traffic to are there three other board members that would require that for a condition of approval I would have account even if you were one we still would need two more okay like the condition on maybe the six month study added to it yeah are there four other board members that would like that would require the six month study as a condition of approval yes I'm I'm want that's two I do not want are there three others I think that that'll help well you're not going to get you going to get that's three are there two others that's four is is there one other board member please raise your hand raise your hand no I want attendance now well you're not going to get attendance talk about the six month study right now r on the six month study is there one other board member that would require the six Monon study for a condition of his or her approval okay so now we are back at the variances for the D3 the C4 basically the bulk variances and the waivers I think you got to vote first the D3 because we know we need five affirmative votes okay so I would offer that first if if someone wants to offer a positive resolution they're willing to provide a condition though okay I I know what Miss Litman wants but they're willing to provide a condition that I hear that after this becomes operational they'll provide us with a a detailed traffic study and if they're spilled into the Ring Road even after all these improvements they will agree to uh alleviate it in some manner acceptable to the board either by directing traffic or more employees or whatever is required but they want to give this what I'm hearing is that they want to give this new plan a shot because they feel that it will alleviate the current problems that's what I'm hearing but they're willing to accept the condition that they will provide us a report 6 months after fully operational um and if there's still if there's a spillage problem they'll come back to the board to provide some sort of um mitigation I I have a question if you provide the six-month um report after 6 months and we find that there's spillage on the Ring Road what happens after that they would have to either hire more employees or you said provide a new plan provide some sort of remediation to your but the question is is does then the approval go away if they don't well no but then they're in violation of their approval they get cited and they go to court and they get fined what is it $1,500 a day I mean we do have some some some so I guess the first is the D3 there's no mechanism in place to enforce it and you're a year down the road before anything is done said you don't know that what you're suggesting is actually going to work that's that's the problem well you could suggest it and then it doesn't work then what are you going to do well she she's she sugges that you put on an additional employee now that will that will definitely help aliviate you have one employee that's handling three pumps as opposed to one employee that's handling two pumps that may not be any more efficient one employee can handle three pumps gasoline the efficiency may be exactly the same because there's two or three minutes when the employee is standing there watching the the gas go into the car uh and when I'm there I see that all the time there's also there's also times where the where the employee is uh pumping gas and they're busy running a credit card and the other gas pump is finished and could be another 30 seconds 45 seconds before they get to that car which which will also add time I don't think we've heard testimony from the traffic engineer or anyone else that any of that would or would not happen we that's that's that's the point I'm making to have a condition when you don't know if that condition is going to work yeah sometimes that happens to me sometimes it doesn't but no no professional stood up today and said that by adding an attendant would decrease time if you have a condition that says 6 months from now you do a study and tell us whether it's working or not and if it's not working you have to do something to correct it then you've got a mechanism to do it but until you know whether it's going to work or not it's putting a condition in that that may or may not help the situation does it doesn't make any sense to me if you're waiting in line and you're sitting there and you and it's so illogical and there's two people on and everyone else is waiting to be helped How could an additional attendant not speed up the flow of traffic because the the mechanism for the time is how fast the gas goes into the tank it's not what what the three additional tanks and two attendance I mean we're just spinning a hamster going to get 50% more cars through the site than go through now per time that's that's the whole purpose of them doing this and I and I think that an additional person on I don't think it's going to work I'll be quite Frank with you I don't think it's going to work Mr matl can you share what you were going to say yeah I I I was going to say that the the testimony was that the um service time was about four minutes right MH and I think that takes into account the what you were talking about Mr zomo of uh people who get their gas filled and then they have to sit there maybe for another 30 seconds to get their credit card receipt because we've all been to the gas station it doesn't actually take four minutes to fill your tank it t it takes four minutes from when you pull up to when you leave the the actual gas flow is not taking four minutes so that that's where where um you know that extra time is accounted for you're right and I you're you're correct and I believe that falls back on training the employees to move quicker okay and get the flow of traffic going much faster because would know that after 6 months of full operational whether or not and the only we're not worried about it's not our domain that the members are getting serviced efficiently our domain is is that we don't have spillage on roller Road and a traffic has but that also falls on making sure that the employees are serving the customers efficiently because if they don't then the traffic is going to spill over onto roller roads that's but our concern is the traffic on roller Road not that the member's going to wait 12 minutes until he gets his gas because then he's gonna go someplace else that's not what the zoning no one's leaving Costco's line to go get gas somewhere else okay so but what I'm I've heard different condition for this condition for this condition for this but I didn't hear majority say that they needed it for a positive vote so I would like to offer for approval for the the D3 variant is there a second say I'll second okay spoke up and without any conditions without any conditions Claire if you can please call the role well before we V if they're offering the study why wouldn't we just take the study the folks that don't I don't necessarily need it but they're offering it and it will help our some of our board members feel a little more comfortable voting for it that's why I would vote for you would amend your I will amend it to D3 with the with the condition that the applicant after fully full operation I reward it will provide a u a detailed traffic study on and if there is spillage onto the Ring Road which is Roller road that area and I don't know if we can ask for this but I'd like to see a report from the police department well we can always police yeah cuz I just don't want to see an independent consultant that comes out there on Wednesday and say there's no I'd like to see the police department go up we're we're we're talking about fully operational during peak hours and if there's spillage onto the Ring Road or roller Road um then the applicant is obligated to come back to the board and present some a remediation remediation to our satisfaction and if he can't remediate it to our satisfaction then he's in violation of his approval okay I will amend it to Mr Steinberg's language is there a second to that one more question before we move forward once they come back and and let's say that they have to fix the problem how does that get enforced it gets enforced as any other approval and if they don't they're in violation of their zoning and they can be fined yeah okay they have they have to come back with a plan to fix it if it's not working whatever that plan is we would find out I would think that if it's not working they would want to I I would imagine that after 6 months the traffic report will be submitted to me and then I would submit a report to to uh Colleen and then that would trigger the need to either everything is working fine or there's a need to come back the boort and and I we would also ask our uh police department to make a report at that time also okay and I would say if you have to come back to the board you're going to need more than just a few attendants I I can assure you that that the restrictions will be well above that if there's traffic backed up on that ring road so make sure your clients aware of that Costco's interest is functional site but it's not right now I understand well that's why we're here yeah well you're here for some other things but that's as to combine application but we were asked to address the back the queuing backup um you know a couple of months ago and asked to combine it all one application but clearly we're here to solve the problem that the township has no I get it it's just like a told some other people with the pools get a jackhammer if it doesn't work okay so I I do amend it to Mr Steinberg's language was I heard a second who said three and that would be with the conditions that you need to vote on that need five you can call call the entire board except the alter sorry like at some point I make it yes with the conditions yes in protest and I want to point out please that the applicant said on the record that he would accept it if a condition was that he would hire attendance if we made him I I would correct I would say uh if that becomes a condition of approval we can address that then actually he did Fudge it his answer at that time yes that's what he said yes thank you yes okay I will offer for the C4 variances second what D4 I thought c c C2 oh I'm sorry c21 and two C1 and two I apologize C1 and two both yeah yes yes is this the final s yes yes yes the waivers yes and then we need to I'll also for the waivers well the site plan and the waivers okay now I'm looking at this is the this was submitted on August 6th yeah that's this is the final one this is the one we're going to vote on yes this the one that's everybody's package correct I get to take it home that has the phasing plan on it um let's see is it labeled as facing plan overall site plan overall site plan layout is there a phasing it's phasing on there okay it's phing asking for approval of the phasing well which is in here yes so we approve the entire site plan as a package together with any required um W waivers which is I think the lighting and the other small and under the and the spill they're design wers yeah okay okay is there a second I'll second I did I can build with um the conditions for the wav s plan with waivers W yes yes yes yes yes yes okay and I believe that was all of them I don't have any other notes okay thank you [Applause] thank you for your time about okay a motion to adjourn motion