okay we will call the meeting to order and Claire may we have a roll call please here here herei here here here Kap lki herei here okay we can stand to salute the flag I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all the notice requirements of the ocean public meeting law for this meeting have been satisfied a copy of the notice having been sent to the asbery park press in the coaster and filed in the office of the Township Clerk on July 21st 2023 there is an emergency exit through the court room doors and two exits at the rear of the room there will be no smoking no new cases will be started after 10:00 p.m. and no new testimony taken after 10:30 p.m. in addition the applicant will be limited to 45 minutes of testimony all meetings will be video and audio taped and shown on the township of oceans Community cable channel channel 22 on Verizon FiOS and channel 77 on cable vision all cell phones must be turned off or if you need to make a call please make your call outside the meeting room we have three resolutions for memorialization Michael Corley block 3709 Lot 4 four Windsor Lane ocean Daniel and Michelle misrahi block 2.11 lot one 200 Ampere Avenue Oakhurst Ezra and Adel tail Janette and Janette toell and David betesh block 2.34 lot 14 445 Brookside Avenue Oakhurst and I resolutions I'll second yes lman yesi yes yes yes yes and chairwoman yes the following the following cases will be carried to February 15 2024 to be held in the public meeting room Municipal Building deal in Mammoth roads Oakhurst ashkanazi block 11.01 lot 3 103 6 Norwood Avenue West deal Michael giosi block 159 lot 43 78 cold Indian Spring Road Ocean memo Investments LLC block 7 lot 5144 Mammoth Road C1 Matthew and Gloria ingber block nine lot 46 257 Dixon Avenue and ocean cam con block 123 Lot 2 1302 South Masa Drive R six and no additional notice correct no additional notice okay and our first case tonight Timothy Apper block 37 lot 28 13 tilon Drive Ocean R2 applicant seeks approval to construct a front Portico minimum front yard setback 35 ft required 32.4 4 feet proposed is the applicant pres yes please come forward and you may have a seat at the table and if you can raise your right hand do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth yes okay you can have a seat and I will turn it over to our um we need to Mark the packet Claire thank you and I will turn it over to our expert Mr Higgins and Mr matl and I I am disqualified on this because I'm within 200 ft of the property okay Mr mat so you'll just be hearing from me tonight uh for this one so the applicant is requesting approval for the installation of a portico uh over the existing porch uh in the front yard um very briefly the uh that is the entire application uh I do have to make a correction in my my report uh my report indicates that the required front yard setback is 45 ft which is the required front setback in the R3 Zone but this is the R3 cluster Zone uh which is not shown on the tax map but is uh was confirmed by the zoning officer uh so the front setback is actually 35 ft required and they are proposing 32t so it's not as egregious of a variance uh as if it was just the R3 Zone um that is the the only variance required and uh I don't really see see it as a major major issue um it just results in the vertical expansion of the existing non-conformity of the front porch uh and we can hear the applicant provide some testimony for the reasoning for uh installation of the P okay Miss A if you can tell us about your request yeah where this is part of a larger remodel on our home where we have we have to redo our roof and our siding a couple skylights new front door um so just it's just really about so when people come to the door they have some coverage from the weather when you're outside in these kind of icy cold days um you know there's 10 other homes in our small development that have porticos of similar setback um I I didn't go and measure anything but you know you can tell just all the houses are pretty much the same in our block and unfortunately you know we're we're stuck with the the location of our house okay any questions from the board sir you're just two feet off right four feet away two feet we need 2 feet 8 in the pictures you provided in the application those are neighbors that have similar uh Properties or similar what you're looking to do yes yes any other questions from board members okay any questions from the public okay motion to close the public hearing make a motion to close the public hearing second yes yes yes yes yes yes yes and will someone offer we offer a positive resolution I'll second yeso yes yes yes yes yes yes yes okay best of luck Mr appert approved yes approved thank you have a good evening next case Robert and Maryanne Bedford block 89 lot 5 15 North dimir Drive Ocean R5 the applicant proposes to construct a screened front porch within the front yard setback on North dmar Drive minimum front yard setback 30 ft required 22 and 22 and 3 ft North dimir Drive proposed okay and if you both can raise your right hand do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth yes okay I will turn it over to Mr Higgins and Mr matlack and Claire can we Mark the packet okay I'll I'll read my report it's dated January 17th the applicant is proposing to construct an addition to a single family residents including a one-story addition to at a screened in porch the site is in a regularly shaped parcel with which is has an area of 9,45 Ft 7500 ft required a width of approximately 100 ft and it's not really dimensioned on the plan so it's it's approximate 75 ft required and a depth of 82.35% a greater depth but the ordinance calculation is 82.35% ft is required and 82.35% requirements for covered but open porches be relaxed while this porch is screened and not open and is not completely inconsistent with the master plan particularly since there is a hardship due to the lot depth um additional comments the chart on the architectural plan as incorrect as the calculations as to the calculations for building coverage it incorrectly uses the total lot area which is 9,45 square ft instead of the buildable lot area which is 75 % of the total lot area and that's 7,054 Square ft that chart should be corrected this should be a condition of approval should the board approve the application uh similarly the pla rating plan uh on file with the application is incorrect and that it does not show the proposed porch addition while a revised plan was prepared by the engineer was not submitted properly to the planning board secretary by the applicant representative and is not in the file so it wasn't there for people to review however when I looked at it the architect's plan does have a site plan that's accurate so people could a reviewed that um the revised plan should be properly submitted to the planning board secretary and any zoning chart on the revised plan should accurately reflect coverage calculations based on build of a lot area as well as Frontage width and depth calculations based on the ordinance definitions definition of those Dimensions this should be a condition of approval should the board approve the application okay Mr metl uh my only uh comment was that the there are uh proposed grades should be provided at all corners of the proposed structures there are some grades provided uh just not uh on all Corners uh this is just a minor thing to clean up the the grading plan and with Mr Higgins um uh requirement that it be submitted uh those revisions should be made as well okay and Mr and Miss Bedford if you can tell us about your request sure um so we're this is part of a the screen in front porch is part of our bigger build like we're building off to get more room for our house and we're losing the view of our Lake that we love because we can't see it from in the backyard and so we love our area and we want to appreciate the lake that where we live across the street from and you know we we've there times where we love being outside but there's mosquitoes and geese and all that stuff and so that's why we were looking to have a screen in from porch so that we could enjoy our area a little more throughout the entire season um versus just having it open and not a screen in porch um and so that's the main reason why we we need to screen in fromont porch it's just that you know we wanted to uh enjoy the season all year long and and Bobby's we're really involved with the late with the pond it's called lollipop Pond Bobby's part of goes to all the commission meetings we do a lot of cleanups around the pond so it's really important to us to be part be able to really enjoy that um any given day there's about 50 geese on our lawn so we want to have a space with our 5-year-old that we can really have be out side but not maybe in the two pounds per per per goose poop that happens every day um and we just you know we love the area so we want to be able to enjoy it outside okay questions from board members questions from the public okay motion to close the public hearing I'll make a motion to close the public hearing yes yesman yes yes yes yeski yes andan yes okay motion can I make a comment before you do the motion uh only seven members can vote okay last time eight members voted thank you so what one one of the alternates can't vote I I don't know which alternate it would be but okay will someone offer with the condition of the improved or revised chart plot grading plan um and proposed grades I believe that covered everything uh do you have any questions about what they're asking you to supply uh we already have given in the grading plan because we had gotten that but um I we'll have to talk to the architect about that but I assume we can get more information once we know what needs to be updated yeah I received a copy of the the grading plan electronically and I was able to to look at it uh those my my com still stand with the plan that I received uh I think just hard copies weren't properly submitted to the town okay and just the charts need to be corrected so that they're accurate and I I think what the engineer and the architect have to look at the ordinance and the definitions in the ordinance and make sure that their calculations are consistent with those definitions just so the appli so different zoning ordinance all have different definitions in them so one pound differs from another is it for the grading as well or that's for the archit the architectural the engineer the engineer would do the grading I think right yeah yeah the both the grading plan and the architectural plan have to have the revised zoning chart that that's corrected okay and that's in your report right which they have access to so you can send that you can send that to your professional great thank and this isn't something that their architect is going to do and suddenly they'll be in Jeopardy of the it's just a just fixing something to deliver correct so yeah I'll offer POS resolution contingent on the engineer getting W they you I have a second yes yes yes yes yes yes yes okay best of luck okay the next case first French speaking Baptist Church block 38 lot 71 and 72 2795 2797 Asbury Avenue Ocean R2 applicant is seeking preliminary and final major site plan approval to construct an approximately 14,960 of worship the use is a conditional use in the zone the applicant is requesting a conditional use approval where several bulk variances are also required the attorney for the applicant is Amanda M curly welcome good evening on to the main show uh so Amanda curlyy from Dave Pitney on behalf of the applicant the first French speaking Baptist Church as stated very succinctly we are seeking preliminary and final major site plan a D3 variance several bulk variances and a design waiver to construct a house of worship on property located on Asbury Avenue it's identified as LW 71 and 72 in Block 38 on the Township's tax maps and the zoning is the R2 Zone it is a conditional use the reason we need a D3 conditional use is that this property is triangular with three front yards and no rear yard so we fail to meet one of the front yard setbacks to the rear along a paper street that is unimproved and not used I do not believe it's called trol Lane but because of its existence that triggers the D3 relief we meet the rest of the D3 standards but for for the front yard setback and then the lot depth both are caused by the existence of the paper Street and for the front yard setback in that regard it's because we have a maintenance shed to the rear for storage of snow removal equipment and other maintenance to keep the property clean and the grass cut um otherwise we meet the conditional use standards I would like to note too that this is a house of worship so it is an inherently beneficial use it automat ially satisfies any positive criteria because of that it is a church uh the municipal land use law has stated it's inherently beneficial so I just want to put that out from the outset the variance that we're going to be seeking uh the bulk ones are as follows we need a variance to permit a change in grade exceeding the permitted maximum of 2 feet we need a variance for the maximum permitted impervious coverage based upon the buildable lot area we need a variance for the proposed location of the curb cut driveway uh we actually met with the township initially we had the curb cut in the middle of the property and apparently there had been accidents and they requested that we shift it to the Western 1/3 so we're seeking relief but that was a comment that was through your professionals that we were addressing uh we also need a variance because our Landscaping plan was not prepared by a licensed landscape architect but an engineer um another variant is required for a fence because we're again we have this front yard setback and front yard condition where there's three front yards so we have a fence that is higher than 3 feet in those yards and it's solid not see-through so or it's a probably a plain vinyl fence um we also need an a variance relief for landscape around the drain Bas and then if required a design waiver for the uh proposed tree replacement and tree size and we will happily give into the tree fund for that um we did notice for two lighting variances we are going to seek to try to eliminate those uh we're going to relocate a pole so we're going to eliminate the relief for the setback of a light pole and then uh Mr Anderson who's my engineer we're going to try to eliminate the um maximum minimum levels of Illumination but he has to do the calculation so we'll get back to the next hearing on that one U we understand we are not getting done tonight we have several witnesses we have Paul Anderson my engineer Robert douly our architect we have Lee Klein a traffic engineer and we also have Paul Anderson coming back to provide the planning testimony because he's both a professional engineer and a license planner so this evening we're hoping to get through Mr Anderson's testimony I understand there's ob's attorney here as well so with that I would like to call my first Witness Paul Anderson okay do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth I do okay and can you tell us about your credentials please yes uh my name is Paul W Anderson I'm a licensed professional engineer in the state of New Jersey started in 1983 when I got my Bachelor of Science in civil engineering from Clarkson University been licensed as a professional engineer since 1988 uh I am the principal of Anderson's consulting services and I prepared the plans for this evening I've been accepted as an expert witness in front of numerous municipalities as an expert in engineering and planning and my licenses are in current good standing for both engineering and planning on the planning perspective I uh passed the uh planers examination approximately 14 years ago and I have provided uh testimony throughout uh many towns in New Jersey okay unless there's any objections I think we will accept um CLA can we Mark the packet and uh before we begin with any testimony Mr Higgins or Mr mat like anything at the Forefront that you would like to no I think uh the applicant attorney pretty much summarized my report the only caution I would make is that I do have a disagreement with her with regard to whether or not the fact that the church is an inherently beneficial use goes towards the positive criteria because the issue is not the use the issue is it's a D3 variance where the applicant has to demonstrate that the site can accommodate the use despite the need for that variance it's not really the use itself because the use is a permitted use it's just not it's just permitted sub uh subsequent to certain conditions at at the same time I think you should understand that the use itself is protected under certain constitutional uh issues with with and and I think so it's something you can give consideration to but the fact that it's inherently beneficial is not dispositive of the uh the uh special reasons for the granting of the variants okay and Mr matac anything at the Forefront um I I think that that the applicants professionals uh are you know are going to go through my my report uh I I'll be looking to hear testimony about storm War management uh traffic uh which which they you know the engineer is going to speak their traffic expert is going to speak um so I I'll wait until we hear testimony to make some comments um I I think that the with regards to specifically storm order management I think that the plans may need some some revisions uh so I think that as the uh applicants attorney said they may not be heard uh completely tonight um so that that will provide an opportunity to possibly make plan revisions uh and and address some of my comments okay yeah I would like to note that Mr gazari the obje attorney did reach out to me and we did say we would not finish this evening so he would like an opportunity to present his own witness that will be at a later date in the interim we do plan on submitting a traffic report our Traffic Engineers working on that right now he's not here tonight so it is really Our Hope tonight to get through Mr Anderson um and if we have time perhaps start with Mr duly our architect but we do not plan on ending tonight and we will grant an extension for the for to act okay very good thank you so I'd like to put be yeah I'm not going to stand I have my knee replaced five weeks ago so I'm going to down if I can and I willk uh and I can get up and around a little bit but I'd rather not stand if you don't mind uh um and if we can we're going to mark this as A1 A1 an aerial of existing conditions that's correct all right so the property uh block 38 Lots 71 and 72 shown on the plan I now looking at this I can see in my office but there's a red uh outline around the property uh that I'm trying to follow with my laser and you have Asbury Avenue to the South you have have truck lane to the West you have Sharon Drive uh to the east uh the property has uh 274.50 uh feet of Frontage on Asbury Avenue and also the frontage on on the paper Street uh which I I would find it difficult to believe that it would ever be developed uh there's houses on the other side with other access uh on across across Asbury Avenue is Neptune Township so we're right on the uh municip border uh if you can't see on the exhibit A1 you can see in the plans it is somewhat of a regular shape it's you could call a triangle it's not really a triangle it's it's it's very close to it and um what was been referred to as the multiple front yards you have a front yard associated with uh the paper straight here you have a front yard associated with Asbury Avenue and you are required by your ordinance to have a rear yard so the rear yard would need to be one either of the east or Western property lines and then the condition one of the conditions of the conditional use is that the lot depth is 200 ft now the other definition is lot depth is the distance between your front yard and your rear yard so since the lines touch our our lot depth is zero on a 4.96 acre property so uh that is just by definition it's and by shape of the lot and the because of a a paper street that is is there uh we have um the property is Upland there's no flood zone associated with the property it's also it does not have any Wetlands or Wetlands buffers based on the New Jersey geoweb but in addition to that we also had environmental Technology Incorporated go out uh in 2020 and do a detailed site investigation and we could enter this into evidence if you like it just basically says that there's no Wetlands or buffers so there's no consideration for uh d uh approval for Wetlands or flood plane associated with the property uh in lie of an exhibit we'll submit that with our next submission with our draft report okay um so if we can go to A2 which is the next one Amanda thank you problem I did not have my knee replaced [Laughter] so okay so the applicant proposes a 14,960 meetings I had with the uh Municipal engineer and planner indicated that there was a fatal accident on this roadway and it was somewhat attributed to lack of sight distance when somebody's trying to pass so I went back and I looked at the uh sight distance that as at the driveway where he proposed it in the middle of the property and it met the design standard uh for the design speed but it was right on the limit so being that we had some room uh I thought it was worth while to move it over here and balance out the site distance in both directions uh east and west on Asbury Avenue and I think it offers a a better solution to driveway location there's no real impediment on the lot uh to the uh left or to the West in terms of um you know any driveway coming out there so it's not like we have one driveway wa right upon another so I think this is a better solution uh we could move it over a little bit but I I think this works very nicely having the traffic go all the way in to the site with a straight shot um and to confirm this causes a variance that is correct the location creates a variance but it creates a safer driveway and access point uh to the site so uh also shown on the site plan on his exhibit and again I'm sorry it doesn't really punch out as well as I would like is I have turning radius for both the fir Tru that is to come in and turn turn around the corner uh straight in and turn the corner and to fight fires uh and then we also have a turning radius for a garbage truck which turns going across the roadway in front to the dumpster enclosure which is proposed on the Eastern property line in the corner in this dark shaded color um behind to the to the west of the building and to behind and also East and behind the building are parking spaces to serve uh the property it has 228 parking spaces as proposed uh 23 of which are EV spaces which are up against the building on both sides and uh the state code permits EV spaces to be counted two for one so that gives us a total count on parking of 251 parking spaces where 251 are required for the facility of the site um we had looked there was a comment requesting discussing the need for a loading space uh with this particular use I don't believe that there is a need for a loading space on the project we don't have any large deliveries it's insignificant in terms of any trucks that would be delivering things to the site or your FedEx Amazon type uh Vehicles which can easily get in but they don't need a a loading dock also based on this use which is primarily on Sundays and some other uh evening uh classes and things like that the parking lot will be largely empty a lot of the time and so deliveries during the day should not read any problems with other vehicles trying to get through or you know we're getting in the way of of vehicles at all so we believe it's appropriate to have no loading space and just allow them to park wherever is convenient to get in and deliver whatever package that they have um let's see all right so if we can go to the next one please right so this will be the second one is A2 so this will be A3 so A3 is a combination of the the grading and utility and the landscape plan uh that I that I prepared for the project and um so what we see here is the project does have a storm water management system I'll deal with drainage first we have two um detention areas that are based on Green Technology uh the first being uh a porous pavement system which is shown in a light gray tone and that absorbs water through the asphalt into a a reservoir layer below and that allows it to absorb into the subsoil subsoils in here based on testing done for previous applications is a very permeable sand uh material that will allow the water to rapidly perk into the ground um when you have somewhat harder rainfalls the storm the storm inlets will allow a connection to that and uh also feed and store the water in in that system and that takes a a portion to the uh east side of the parking lot and and the uh and the porest pavement area itself it meets the DP standards for area of contributing area and uh it'll meet the standards for uh you know the ferocity of pavement and so forth uh the second uh detention Basin or second uh storm Management Facility is in the front this is a small scale infiltration Basin all right which is also Green Technology it serves a drainage area of approximately 2.35 acres and it collects water from the roof and from the uh western side of the parking lot and uh it the water comes in and absorbs into the ground uh the entire 2-year storm will absorb into the ground and we start getting some runoff on larger storms and uh but overall the the combination of these two reduced the the discharge from the site uh to the required standards for uh for storm water management in terms of a 50% reduction or you know 50% reduction for the 2-year 70% for the 10year and 80% of existing rate for the uh for the 100-year storm uh it's been designed for the both the current storm and the year 2050 storm the future storm uh there is one comment that's appropriate there's many comments appropriate the engineer report I mean to say it that way uh but uh there is a for Bay required that I'll have to or some kind of pre-treatment that I'll have to add to uh before this discharges into uh the Basin and uh and and we'll have to clarify some things in our resubmission in terms of height of groundwater and and things like that and and review that with him to show that we comply uh this uh so before yeah before I go there okay so uh we are going to be served by Municipal Water we have a water line coming in on the western side to the west of the driveway comes in it has the uh I believe it's a hot box that is uh for the meter and then it comes into the building the building will be fully sprinkler uh there's two hydrants proposed on site we do not know where the uh where the uh the fire connection would be or you know for the fire to uh Department to pressurize the sprinkler system we'll figure that out uh with the local fire department and see where they would prefer it it goes and uh and put it in that location the uh again that comes off of the system in Asbury Avenue uh we also propose a sanitary sewer Municipal sanitary sewer system it comes out the east side of the building and down to Asbury Avenue and it runs along Asbury Avenue till gets to Sharon the intersection of Sharon and um at that point we tie into a manhole that is there it's a gravity flow system that uh will serve serve the building uh all the improvements there there is uh on Asbury Avenue we have a plan showing all the uh the widening of Asbury Avenue is a minor widening there's also a dedication of property to uh the county to match the right of way with uh uh that the county desires um and we believe we've designed it to Mammoth County standards but we have to make that submission and get their approval for all of the work that we're doing in the right of way of Asbury Avenue um if we move on to uh I will just briefly talk about the lighting Amanda had uh mentioned that uh we have a lighting plan associated with the with the project there are a few lights that have to be relocated to meet the required setback from the property line we intend to do that and uh and eliminate that relief requirement and uh we we I have to go through some calculations as she mentioned to uh to verify that we meet the minimum to maximum ratios and other things that are required by your ordinance we're a little bit off at this point uh but I don't want to address spend too much of the board's time discussing what we have on the plan now because it's going to change so uh and now we get to um the Landscaping so um I used to have a landscape architect he unfortunately passed away suddenly he started this plan for me in 2020 and I have a Horticultural that does his rest so it's not entirely a civil engineer uh landscape design I think it's actually pretty nice and um and so we have with this um uh we have a bu for planting around around the perimeter we have uh uh where did it go where's my number we have 27 evergreen trees planted around the perimeter to meet the buffering requirement and then on the interior of the the parcel we have a hundred other trees that are both shade trees and flowering trees combined throughout in in all in a lot of the uh many of the islands and of course in front uh around the detention Basin there is uh I believe 18 trees in this immediate vicinity both shade trees and flowering trees uh in the front to provide some buffer uh amand you had mentioned that the one variances for excavation uh change in grade the change in grade relief is required for the stormw management system it's right there on Asbury Avenue uh and uh to make that function we need it uh uh needed deeper so there is an excavation there I believe it's approximately 8 ft deep the rest of the site is fairly at grade there might be a few spots that are uh here and there that are 3 ft instead of two but it's plus and minus existing grade just a nice consistent grade down uh to the front uh front uh sloping from the back of the property to Asbury Avenue uh that being said there's also uh comments in the planner report indicating that uh the contribution there was likely a contribution to the tree uh shade tree fund and uh there is a need we have a property here that I think we are 300 and some uh trees that are on site but there's only a few qualifying trees because a lot of them are ash and they've all died and we went out and did a survey of the ones that were clearly Dead with the tops knocked off of them and so forth and uh so there's only 168 trees qual what they call Quality been referred to as qualifying trees in the middle of the site that are alive live trees that we're removing and that requires uh either 168 4 in trees or 336 2 and 1/2 in trees as I mentioned before we have 100 and so we're not going to fill in gaps to meet that number so there will be some type of contribution ution to it but there's some uh municipal or board professionals will want to look at the condition of the trees around the perimeter and we may work uh uh jointly during construction to add trees here and and move trees there so the actual number uh is really not determinable at this point I think it's a good plan that was proposed in the planner's report in terms of allowing them to look at what the site conditions are and make some field modifications to the buffer plantings and to the internal plantings and then at the end of the day figure out what the total number is and make that uh contribution but there would be a contribution uh in addition to the trees and the landscape plan we have 326 uh Native shrubs to be planted in the islands and around the building and uh we have 1,28 perennials and grasses and we have uh, 123 uh ground cover plantings the detention Basin is not only has the trees around it but it also has seed mixes for a wet seed mix in the bottom and a a wet tolerant seed mix on on the slopes to uh add some some stabilization and some beauty to that so um very quickly can you just address the garage because I believe that was in a lot of reports and I think that's what's triggering some variants of the D3 right so so in a so so I uh this garage here is for the maintenance of uh maintenance supplies we had put it here it's the most convenient it does kick in the D3 variants on its own uh because it does not have sufficient setback to the paper Street uh and even if it was a uh no longer a paper Street if it was uh you know vacated by the municipality it would still not meet that standard so Our intention is to find a different place place for it and Amanda could you put the other A2 back up please so it's a small garage so I I um but there is another alternate location that would comply and eliminate the need for D3 for that particular purpose and that is right here in this little triangle where it would meet the setback requirements under any scenario so uh that would eliminate that need and then the D3 variant that will be providing planning testimony on would be Sol I ask a question there sure wouldn't it make sense to take the trash area and move the trash area also over to that point yes yeah because I have real concerns about the location of the trash area I think it would be better to move the trash area closer to the shed okay happy to do it yeah yeah okay so so if we move it to those locations it could make some improvements to the plan and gives you a couple more parking spaces too yeah a few more can I ask a question also yeah yeah um is there a reason why um or could you consider um adding more trades instead of just making a monetary contribution to the fund we're so devoid of greenery as it is we've and trees I I would strongly recommend adding trees I know you are as it is but instead of just blanketly saying let's make a monetary contribution I would really like to see you add Trace okay so just just so I'm a little clearer um put A3 back up um we do think there are some locations where we can add trees thank you and and we will do that and I'm sure that uh you know that Jim will be you know coming along making those kind of recommendations and that will change the number that we have on the plan thank you particularly in this area and if we're moving the garage and dumpster over here then obviously we're going to want to put some there to further buffer that area uh but I guess what my testimony really is is I don't think I'm going to reach the requirement in the ordinance understood that so that that's really what my testimony is not that I'm unwilling to or unwilling to add a couple more trees or but there might be we're adding 15 or something like that maybe 20 and that's not the extra well if we fit they have to survive so we can discuss yeah well we'll have to lay it out and see what is the appropriate number right what I'm sorry what borders the West um on the West Side there's a a building here and it looks like looks like a A Home of some type I'm not sure exactly what theow okay please continue so but you you said the property has three front yards no front yard right no it's just two it it it's Asbury and and andaron you have you have houses Shar no this is uh there's houses here so this is one of these two has to be the rear yard okay and uh so if this is rear then this would be side and vice versa but either way the rear yard's touching the front yard sorry two front yard yeah that's basically my direct testimony if you want I'll answer any other questions that you or your professionals have or try any mentioned the back area that would be additional parking what is it currently that I'm looking at the Gold section and then behind right there right there that's a sidewalk in front of the main entrance to the building where did you me where is the you mentioned additional parking where the trashes if we move the trash over if we move this yeah if we move the trash from here over here we can add a couple more parking spaces looks like two yeah yeah they add a few more and then it would put those two in the same place in terms of access to those things the site is designed for accessibility throughout that that area where's the fence line I mean where's the fence good question I'm sorry I forgot that so we have a fence along the sidelines uh the we have on this exhibit which you know is we have a six- foot fence from this point all the way around the back now where this is uh 6 foot along the paper street that still requires relief because it is technically a front yard and you can't be uh that high it is uh uh you can see through the fence it's non- climbable based on the police department recommendation that it's that's you can see through it that they didn't want somebody to climb over it so be if it's a chain link for example it would be a small link a small opening in it so that somebody couldn't put their shoe in it and and and climb over has there been a detail of the fence submitted I I didn't see one I don't know if I missed we we we haven't got it on the plan yet Jim so uh so and then similarly as we get to the front yard on Asbury we're transitioning from the 6ot fence here forward to uh to a 4ft fence which is permitted as long as you can see through it so uh so we believe we're conforming with the exception of where we are on the paper street so the fence is on the property roughly on the property line and then in Board of that there's trees that's correct okay that's what that's what all those marks are those those are all the evergreen trees the double row of evergreen trees that are proposed and you mentioned the the garage you said a small garage to find small garage for mean how big is a small garage that little tiny box is it 10 by 10 20 by 20 more by 20 by 20 size yeah and it's for lawnmowing equipment and other other maintenance equipment for the site snow blowers whatever they need to parking a car in there no not parking a car in there yeah it's all equipment for maintenance how far is the entrance from cold Indian [Applause] Springs and I have concerns with where the entrance is and I knew this area well because that's my route home okay and traffic backs up in cold Indian Spring or on Asbury trying to turn into Indian Springs heading east and I'd also like to is the engineer going to come back yeah he's our planner as well okay cuz I I have questions like we said the soil perks and I live less than a mile from there nothing in that area perks at all and matter of fact on Asbury right now there's water that's been running into the road for almost 3 weeks from the snow and it freezes every night okay so I all right so uh to answer to your first question it's off my map so I'm going to give you an approximation it's about 1,200 feet to to uh cing Springs Road would they be able to turn left heading east in to the church there yeah they they could I I think that's more of a question for the traffic engineer and he'll I'm sure he's studying all the movements there's really not a significant traffic movement for it but he'll get into that in more detail also I believe Asbury Avenue is jurisdiction of the county so that they would ultimately decide whether or not that can occur um that's a county road yeah if they think there's a need for a Prohibition of left turns it's not safe or something but uh in my the way I the reason I placed it there is so that there's more sight distance of somebody coming over the crest of the Hill uh to the east will have ample time to see somebody uh turning left in uh and there's a little bit more space uh than you would need to be for uh to see them and slow down as opposed to be right at the design limit that would be uh required by the ashto code do we have copies of your survey he he's look has plant I I just my plant the survey is copies of that should have copies of that no it's not in our P this was submitted in 2020 we have had a very long road and we were not supposed to come here we were supposed to come to the planning board then the night of the planning board hearing we were told that we needed a D3 so that's why we're here no I understood that and I know your path and journey has been long and windy very long my child has aged several years since wait I was just asking if we had a copy of that you should have it I don't know your process in terms of gu plants yeah um the uh the movement of the driveway um when did that happen I and I'll tell you why I asked because we have the the 2022 note from Traffic Safety M so was this before it was moved or was the traffic safety probably after uh I I don't recall the exact date uh I mean I last revision I have is this 32123 it certainly was done in I had a meeting in before that so because it was done with that last revision I believe but uh and also we're happy to move it back to the center that was how wondering when the traffic safety person looked at it said they had no concerns were they looking at the location there or they looking they they are looking at this location I believe it was done sometime in 2021 recover here you said they were looking at this one where to the far left yes initially when we first submitted so you have to go through this light right you got to try to turn here we received comments that that was a concern so we Hade and we sat down with the township come here and that's when it was recommended that we move it and we SE that VAR that's all ice in here that's all this is running yeah um I agree with what what they're saying I I believe I don't remember the date either uh you know when exactly we we met but we had a technical review meeting um prior to the application being submitted I believe uh and and that was one of the comments that that came up and it was uh you know when the actual the submission was made that's you know this is where the uh the driveway is now um and I I defer to the you know the police traffic safety officer if they have any any comments uh I think that it it is more appropriate to uh have the driveway where it's proposed on the plan now uh one of my comments was to show a a site triangle that uh complies with the state standards and and I'm sure the the county will require the same thing uh as well as a profile of the roadway so because there is a vertical Hill uh on on Asbury Avenue that's one of the reasons why it was a dangerous condition uh so that's something that that I think should be submitted and uh can be reviewed uh okay I um I'm sorry Ben but we do have a uh Planet profile of Asbury Avenue that shows the top of the hill yeah I think showing the I can't remember if this side triangle was was specifically shown on there or not but uh yeah well we we have the site triangle shown on one of the plans in terms of the setback from the drive if you're looking for a line of sight uh with the height of vehicles and stuff I can add that if it's not on there yes that's that's what I was looking for okay any other questions from board members yes um how far away is closest home to a whole east side yeah it a lot um I think it is the east side is the closest but uh the back of the house on lot 75 for example is uh 45 ft from the property line can you show where that is with your red that this is 45 right one from the corner one two here 45 is here no this one here is 45 and that's uh or I'm sorry I'm misspeaking now lot 75 and it is approximately 45 feet from the property line uh to uh to the back of the house lot 75 is 45 ft that's correct an approximation yeah I mean I'm just scaling it here with a with a engineer scale and then the one next to it is a little bit uh bit farther like the one on lot 74 is they're all they're all basically they look different but they're all basically 45 ft in that neighborhood 4T Y and the fence will go on the property line yes and how far is the parking lot from the property line 25 ft 2 45 so you're 70 ft yeah yeah many I have um 20 228 actual physical spaces uh we meet the required ada8 parking van spaces it's all very flat in terms of code requirements there uh but when you add the the extra credit for the EV spaces the 23 evv spaces you get the 251 so so so you have 251 Market spaces including credits for Ev correct explain to me so when the state started requiring uh ready spaces for uh charging stations they said that as an incentive to developers and people building that you can count that parking space that's as an electric charge station there as two spaces so that is up to 10% up to 10% of the required parking for the site so we have uh 23 easy spaces our required parking is IS 250 1 so we're under the 10% and so we get 23 Space Credit towards our total so we just add that to the bottom line of the total you know what the OCC occy level is the building church I that's not a question for me that's you know somebody else will talk probably uh Bob duly the architect will probably talk about the uh daily operation of the building and how everything works inside yeah that's something that I agree the architect will talk about and also uh we're going to hear testimony from the traffic expert um about the occupancy uh any major events traffic generators um that that's all testimony that we should be hearing I also just want to clarify very quickly about the EV law I've seen it two ways just so you know either they say that you get the extra space or you reduce whatever your required parking is I seen the analysis done both ways so either you say that we add 23 or the ordinance requirement is reduced by 23 as to occupancy occupancy is not what your parking standards is based on it's based on number of seats so that is where we got our calculation but again our par our no sorry our traffic engineer will be addressing that and Mr duly who's up next will give more um operational testimony as he's more familiar with the operations of the church so you said number of seats number of seats 450 seats 450 mhm so the parking requirement is based on number of seats we have 450 seats and I believe it's three per seat no sorry three per what's the actual standard actual not three per seat sorry that was a no it's one for three maybe yeah that that's definitely not it um then we'd have about a thousand spaces no it's one for two one2 seats yep 502 seats total if you count the uh the choir seats which is actually operationally is not the way they they run their organization the choir people come out of the audience so those seats in the audience become vacant but the strictest interpretation for zoning would be to count all seats that are in there and that would give you 52 and 251 required is at a at a rate of one per two yeah one one parking space for every two seats and I'm not sure if this is the right time to ask this question or not but what is the average size of Church how many PE how many seats do they have average Church fit I I mean it seems like this is a rather large church I I I I don't know the the the actual answer but I I will tell you that I have a application for a religious organization in fairon and they have 475 for uh on a 1 acre property and uh and then I have another one in Rockaway that has uh 1,500 seats in their in their church so somewhat is dependent upon you know their their community and and I but I don't know the relationship what's the average or what's the largest or some so forth what is the go ahead no go ahead what is the current use of the property vacant I believe there might be a single family home there's two single family homes there and driveways and it's just what's there it's heavily wooded yeah with what Mr Anders said many dead trees yeah unfortunately from what I see in the report it's 163 dead treeses yeah yeah and just so the board is aware there is actually an approved single family subdivision for that site that was approved probably 10 to 15 years ago but it's it's still Val a valid approval okay any other questions from board members go back to the driveway sorry sure um was was there anything else considered um with would would there be roadway improvements that could be done um whether or not it's actually on the road or if it's just off the side of the road that would improve sight lines to move the driveway away from residences uh um not answer the question right to have entrance to have an entrance more towards the middle and more towards the hill that you're you're telling me about is there is there any alternatives or anything that we could that could be suggested you're asking about Road widen roadwi are you talking about like knocking down the hill yeah I there's no Hill there it's it's it's mild it's mild so again the road is the county jurisdiction so they have to approve that yeah um the best we can do is move the driveway yeah so where we where you have Sharon Drive is approximately the top of the hill and as as you get past that you start getting just very slightly lower to a point where the driver can't see too far over the hill like not where the driveway would be in the middle of the site right in in here where we had it now in terms of the design speed of Asbury Avenue and the re from ashow what stopping sight distance would be it was okay but it was right like I said if it I forget what the number was but it was if it was like 350 ft I had like 355 and I said well there's an accident history here why don't we be cautious why don't we make it a little bit superer because in the other direction it's really flat and there it's wide open terms of being able to see adequately in the other direction so why don't we just balance out a little bit it does create the relief we're asking but we do have a minor Road widening and a dedication uh that you know that we're is our improvements to Asbury Avenue but in terms of driveway location is really what we the the the bullet we have in our gun to shoot on this and and if it's thought that it would be better 20 ft to the right then we could do that if they but I don't see the hardship uh in putting it where it is there's a house there right uh it right here yeah but it's it's I pictured you know churches that I've gone to In and Out of where the location is where you have a long stream of cars coming and going how close it is to the neighbor property and uh I'm picturing it being that close could be an issue okay let me see so that's why I'm trying to I understand that there was an accident there at one point um is there any way we could get creative and not have driveway so close to the neighbor's property it is close to the property line but it's 160 ft from the edge of the house so um if the board professionals support it we'll move it back to the middle yeah and we're I mean we're just trying to have a a a safer site plan we I think it works the other way too and if you want us to to put it right down the middle we can do that but you know whatever your guidance is well we can make it work well Mr Higgins and Mr mat like seems like you're trying to say something can you address left middle well so the I guess the original alignment having the the driveway in a conforming location did uh comply with the the uh site distance requirements uh to but the the accident history uh you know encouraged the decision to move the the driveway um it's it could still conform in in the uh the center Center the lot um and comply with the regulations but that that was the the recommendation that was made I'm I'm certainly not trying to dismiss the accident history it was one accident well I don't know is is the board aware of the nature of that accident no what happened as I recall it if it's the one I'm thinking of somebody traveling westbound on Asbury Avenue coming up the hill decided to pass the car in front of him and when they did that they couldn't see the car coming eastbound because of the vertical curve of the road and they had a head-on collision killing somebody so so there's definitely a vertical curve that does obscure visibility of vehicles coming so they're heading westbound toward the they were headed westbound towards towards the Parkway and toward this property or away from the property what the they I don't know exactly where on the street it was but I know it was probably further to the east if the if the peak of the hill is Sharon Drive it was probably further to the east I'm sure a police report could could CL on theong side of the road you tried to pass and couldn't see the car coming the other direction there there's there's two driveways now for the house on the West Side the driveway is approximately right here to to the west of where we proposing this driveway and the other one is about in the middle third to for the for the house that's to the east on the on the property so you already have a driveway just to the left of where we're proposing that which would be removed driveway wide is it's 24 ft I believe um yeah 20 24 ft any other questions from board members does the church actually own the property now yes there's no contingencies on it or no they just bought it out right any other board member questions okay questions from the public for Mr Anderson does Mr gazari um is this I'm sorry I understand Mr gazari is here but just from a legal perspective I wasn't sure which witness um I thought he was questioning at the end but I could be mistaken I'm sorry for um just procedural um previously the I'll say the opposing attorney questioned at the end um do you have any recommendations so I I suspect that because of the length of the application and the number of witnesses it would be more practical and organized if you allowed Mr garasi to ask any questions of the professional as they appear and and uh rather than waiting until the very end when it'll it'll probably be at another meeting anyhow okay let me if I mayce myself uh I disagree with my colleague uh there were a number of questions that were posed to this Witnesses and obviously there are a number of unanswered uh responses to those questions some of the testimony which he given is dependent upon testimony coming from other people whether it be the sound expert uh traffic uh planner and or the like he just simply gave us engineering testimony but much of what he's saying is dependent upon the comments of other experts I found it much better for the questioning to come at the end of the hearing rather than my asking a series of questions now and then have to have them recalled at a later date I would submit to you it's just confusing to do it that way so you would prefer just to wait you know I've been doing this for a long time and I'm not bragging about that but uh I think when the entire case is in in a planning case this is a trial for that s uh much of his testimony will tempered by the testimony of the witnesses so let's get it all in I'll question examine them once and that'll be it okay so you can that's my request you request granted so thank you questions for Mr Anderson from the public how tall is the building one one second if you have a question and please who what when where why how if do does please ask a question without leading statements a question for Mr Anderson please come to the microphone when called upon state your name and state your address and ask your question of Mr Anderson is there anyone from the public who has a question from for Mr Anderson and I apologize since I don't know names I'm just going to uh ask the person that I see here if you can please come to the micro no I'm sorry the if you can come to the microphone please and state your name and your address hi I'm Gail talins I live on 22 Sharon Drive now Sharon is a horseshoe so when you mention Sharon each time I'm not sure you're talking about the west side or the east side I'm assuming it's the west side because that would be impacted most and I'm not sure that my questions are being asked at the right time one question is that you're putting in retaining ponds for war water and that there is a spring running east to west about 15 ft from Asbury Avenue and I know that for a fact because my driveway will soon be slipping onto Sharon Drive because the spring Rises and falls and every time it rises the crack in my driveway gets bigger this crack also crosses the east side of Sharon Drive and I believe and I'm not sure empties into a retaining pond on the east side of Shar so if you're willing to put money into the tree fund please put money into my driveway fund do you have a question so that question is are you aware of a put money in it's fun to fix my driveway when it slides into the street secondly um I I am against the number of and I don't know if this is the right point do you have a question question can and we reduce the number of parking spots because that's one spot per two people which is a lot and very close to the pro property line somehow we have to reduce that to get it away from the property question is it a slab because the slab goes back to the Miss spring he can maybe he can answer is is it on a slab no no back to the I'm certainely not going to answer I'm an attorney but he can answer cuz if it's it's not on the slab your the parking question first The Parking Spot question I think spring was first spring first so the I don't care what you do first thank you uh I very often go backwards anyway so um so the with this with the spring uh we have uh soil testing from the original approval that is in the vicinity of where you're talking about it has no evidence of um any Springs or or groundwater seepage in them uh we will be doing some additional testing there and we will look into that I appreciate you bringing that up so that we can actually look for it well you're welcome to look at my and then the parking question and in terms of the I I will get to that uh we are talking about the West part of Sharon Drive we're talking the east side of Sharon well I'm well when we see the West well I'm sure that the creek that the uh spring runs all the way across yeah I'm just saying that when you asked you're not sure where I'm talking about when I'm talking about Sharon Drive I'm talking the the the west side it's the West part where connection to Asbury Avenue because that's the one that abuts our site okay our property uh in terms of the parking uh parking ratios for uh religious organizations many Studies have been done where it's uh 2.3 to 2.5 uh is the ratio not one to two so if if the board would accept that it's not what the ordinance requires that but the board would have to direct us to reduce it based on a different ratio but that is not unusual to see a different ratio in my past experience in other other projects and I want to add just one thing to that one possibility first of all we have a traffic engineer that's going to testify corre and sub and based on his testimony the board may may want to consider green banking for the for the public with that means is designing parking spaces but not building them at this point if they're not needed and then if it's determined later on in the game that they're needed then they could be constructed yes and that's another common practice happy to do that what is our ordinance required does it one space per two seats okay and you're suggesting to I'm just saying that my past experience I've seen 2.3 to 2.5 is what I've seen in other uh municipalities and and based on some studies you know actual counts of cars the one project I have in Rockway that I mentioned we had a previous approval where they accepted 2.3 as as the ratio have studies that you could we're going to be providing for that project had that and and so uh Jim is correct in saying that uh you know it's a traffic engineering question but I'm just relating that it's not unusual to see different ratios uh but it it does require relief from the board in order for the board to consider uh changing the the parking requirement because they they do uh meet exactly the number of parking spaces that are required by the ordinance in order to change that uh we would need a traffic study that that would demonstrate why that um you know a different uh parking ratio would be particularly uh appropriate for for this site we probably have to have some operational information about the church because it looks like just about everybody be coming to this church will be driving unless there's going to be a bus or bring bring buses bringing people up mini buses that type of thing members do you have I don't have the answer to how many members the church has but I can tell you that Lee Klein is our traffic engineer he is preparing a traffic study you will be get one it will give you the it it data and all of the information will you be able to advise us as to how many members you have yeah some point at some point just it's just not an engineering testimony [Laughter] so any other questions I have a question for traffic I don't know if I can that's the engineer thank you for your time okay um the gentleman's behind Mr gazari if you can state your name and your address James sasio uh 20 Mard Lane um I'm just curious how tall the building is based on the height calculation is required by the ordinance for 3.67 Ft okay is it a standard 3.67 feet it's from a a raised grade or from from the I forget exactly how we did that I think it's from average grade around the building I'd have to go back and look at the ordinance but that's what it calculates won be will there be like religious symbols of any sort like crosses so so I I think as you're talking about the building apperences you need to ask the architect he'll probably have an exhibit that shows you what it looks like and he can explain to you what all those things look like and and the materials used and things like that that's all right thank you guys anytime luck I believe there was a gentleman in the back who had a yes please come to the microphone state your name and your address my name is Victor russano I live at 2713 Asbury Avenue I live about 120 ft from the corner of the property right behind Sharon Drive uh my first question is um Asbury Avenue floods today where the property is now um with seven acres of god-given grass and trees and drainage mm your proposal to cover almost the entire area with the impervious um part toop what is the plan to make sure that we stop the flooding that's there now and it doesn't drain into the drain which goes across the Sharon Drive into the drainage ditch that's on the other side of shon drive on the Eastern side okay uh which hasn't been dredged in about 40 years well it's not going to flow towards Sharon Sharon is uphill from from from our property Sharon's downhill from your property I live there okay want to walk it well you know I'm just looking at the Topo we have for the site and um it doesn't doesn't show it that way but uh I will tell you uh that we have the storm water management systems that I was discussing before the porest pavement system is a large gravel layer below it and that has to be interconnected to a per permeable layer of soil sometimes you have impervious layers at the top that have to be broken through in order for you to get to the sand that will absorb the water better so it's possible that the you're what you're seeing is existing water sitting on top of that hard pan or whatever that's at the top and not getting to the permeable layer what we'll be in order to get our approval particularly from the county we'll have to demonstrate that we have the permeability at the infiltration level that will absorb that water into the ground now the testing that was done previously and we'll have new tests back that up show extremely rapid permeability at that lower level and that's what we're connecting to at the lower level yes so the water will go in there and very little will run out to Asbury Avenue because it'll all absorb into the ground because it's got through the hard pan layer that's how we're proposing to do that we will have to demonstrate all of that to all the approvals not only the board's engineer but to the County engineer okay the next question is is moving the there's only one entry and exit to the property is that correct correct so at this time um Asbury Avenue as you know was a 45 mph speed limit and when you catch the light at Mobility Crest is that what it's called and then at bound Road I think it becomes a Speedway and I live on there I have a special needs order people almost hit the bus the police sit outside my house and write tickets all day long um the thought of having 200 Cars back up to go to a service which you have 200 parking spots actually it's a little bit more if I remember correctly um what is the plan to be able to get 200 PE 200 cars into a parking lot in an expedient manner which not going to cause accidents because of the sight line coming West on Asbury Avenue and then again leaving so part of the traffic study that's going to be submitted to the board uh has to our traffic engineer has gone out he's done traffic counts at various days particularly the ones Associated when Services would be and he understands what the the base traffic is on the roadway he'll testify to this in much greater detail it's really a question for him I'll just explain to you what's coming is then he projects the traffic that's coming in uh all to that service and how they leave the service and then he sees what it does in terms of not only delays but queuing coming in and out of the entrance so I uh you know if if there was a exit help help some alleviate some of that I guess would be the question I I don't think he found that that would be required but you'll have to hear it from him directly because he has the data that backs it up and I do not right and then the fence that you talked about the perimeter is the whole perimeter of the property fenced in uh on the the what I would normally call the sidelines and the rear property lines yes it's all fenced in okay and then is there also a fence around the the the retention Basin there is not okay is there any any is there any thought to adding um something to that if there's going to be standing water in there with kids PL like I said I have a specialty daughter that lives 100t from it I would not like my daughter to walk up the street now on a sidewalk and yeah playing a retention Pond there yeah I I I understand that point uh we have there's a Prohibition against fences in the front yard like that and uh we could we could consider it but I think we'd have to look and see what we have to do to make it less visible okay so that's all for now that's always something we can ask in you to do in the application especially if it comes to safety of children and if there's right across the street from it as well then that's a a very um important requirement and consideration on our part and something we can ask of them okay thank you you're welcome yes please come to the microphone and Sir if you want to come up you'll be next if you can state your name and address um I'm Michelle 277 Asbury Avenue uh last name is protected by D um I just my I guess my first question is are you are you aware that the property does not abut to sh and drive as you've said that a few times yes okay just for clarification my property ABS to Sharon Drive the proposed property is adjacent to approximately 45 uh 45 probably per of my yard um just to reiterate what Victor said um I had the same question about the fence around the retaining pond or the retention Basin I know you said it's about 6 feet deep when I'm looking at the plan it's maybe a six foot grade decrease this way but that's in addition to other ones and where I was reading it it's possibly up to 10t of standing water um and there are children on every side of that property Adent um so I would ask again um um I also wanted to make sure are you aware that the driveways you were referencing that there's already two driveways there one in a similar spot are you aware that they are six foot wide dirt driveways yeah they're not 24 foot driveways um um I'm sorry so many questions but I don't think they're all for you the 23 EV spots are they going to be considered private property or publicly accessible I don't know if that's you or not yeah you know I I I we generally consider them as as as as private but I mean there's a possibility that they could be you know poor uh you know public if people want to come in and there's some uh fee associated with it but that complicates things in terms of traffic and parking requirements and other things like that well they if it's publicly accessible they have to be available 24 hours a day and they be on the state's EV website so would these 23 spots be listed on the we hav we haven't really considered that at this point you're just bringing up as a new topic for us so right now was all private okay 23 EV spots in my backyard is a concern so I would like you to consider whatever you can do it's yeah it's the size of an a gas station basically in my backyard I I do not think at this time we have a a need to rent them out for public I think it's meant for parishioners who have EV Vehicles rivan Teslas no I understand that but then so they would be only operational during times when the church was operating as an open Church it yes it very well could be done that way but there's no definitive answer yet well you know the the topic you're bringing up that they're uh rentable whatever yes it's possible but there has never been any thought given to having them that until you just answered the question asked the question okay so we don't have intend to have a gas station in your backyard I mean if you could give additional thought to that now because that was certainly one of my first thoughts um as far as I know there's only two or three other EV stations within Town um and we are an exit route for people that are coming into Asbury and have to get back to the parkway so it would be a desirable area for people to Quick Stop and charge their car and then I would have 24-hour people in my backyard charging their vehicles is that one of the considerations that you're going to be rent no no it was never a consideration it's brought up for the first time right now and and and it's not something that we've proposing is it possible yeah but it's not something we something they could do without returning to the board for San I think we would allow that I think that we would even make it we are providing EV stations to comply with state law that's that's it and I understand that too and thank you Mr Higgins for clarifying if it is a request it comes back before the board it has not come before the board at this time that's correct okay next question um I there was that um I believe this had already come up from one of the board members the proposed dumpster um is approximately 30 ft from my vegetable we're going to relocate it don't worry about it um that was okay well the lighting um I know there was already the variance regarding the lighting towers and all of that when I went to the town hall and I looked at all the plans and there was the lighting um I guess diagram for what the lighting would affect the parking lot lighting and the entry and exit lighting is then lighting the Western 15 to 20% of my property and in the one corner where this lot where $27.95 a bus on this corner it's a whole swath of property that is then having basically ambient parking lot lighting can that be addressed um I mean I understand lighting the and the police department recommended lighting I understand the safety of it I get that but I don't want parking lot lighting also in you know the Po in all of our am I would assume it's it goes to the neighboring yards can that be addressed yes that's actually one of the comments that are part of the engineers review is that we need to work on lighting intensity at the property line so that would be part of the the issues that we would be addressing with the revised lighting plan also uh the the police review does uh heavily rely on overall safety and they have they they seem to want more lighting and things that than I normally see on a site plan normally recommend for a site plan I don't know that it's required but normally I would recommend that when the church is does not have people there that it goes to a security lighting which is a really low-level lighting so it doesn't disrupt anybody else in the neighborhood just so that it's around the building and you know if there's somebody nefarious there wanting to do something they can be seen and you say who's that over there doing that but not not so bright that it's keeping you up at night kind of thing yeah we would happily accept the condition that the lights go to security lighting when the church is not operational this is not going to be a 24-hour operation and then we can ask additional questions regarding operation you said maybe with another this is not the witness he's just the engineer um our architect will tell you more about the church operations um the other concern there was a note in um from Mr Kirk's Report with the trees and again with the retention Basin and a concern that with how Ste the retention Basin is that some of the Landscaping that was planted along there would not be sustainable um would you consider moving additional Landscaping outside of that retention Basin because there is plenty of room to meet the the threshold of replacing every tree um in all of that area um there there was a there was no there was a lot of landscaping and larger you know larger caliper trees within that 21% downgrade of the B that would not be sustainable um there was a note of that but there is room outside of the Bas to move those trees or add additional trees that would be sustainable to both the East and uh the the east side of the Basin for sure and know to the west side of the Basin is the um entryway well I I think we can plant the trees in a way where they're sustainable there but that does not as I indicated before with the uh with the board members question we are open to adding some additional trees where there are space and and so that I mean um I don't know that we're going to meet the the requirement that as you're suggesting but and that's why I indicated that I think we're going to need to have some amount of contribution to the uh shade tree [Applause] fund disagree um regarding what's that around the bord is all everen trees right but they don't count towards the replacement so I just want to point of clarification because everyone saying trees the green is just all of these are evergreens all around the Border no I understand okay so there are a bunch of Evergreens going in but they did not also Evergreens that are replacing deciduous trees with larger root based um systems that are going to we do not call for the removal of the the existing trees there unless they're dead so that is one of the the things that that the that uh that that the board professionals want to look at is if there is a mature Tree in that area that can suffice and you don't need the double row in that location maybe the existing tree replaces that uh that buffer planting or maybe you move the buffer planting a little bit and leave the trees so we have no intention of removing the the trees in the buffer unless they're dead or there's some grading issue that requ requires them to be removed so um and those have all been indicated on the plans but uh yeah we're not tearing it down completely to the property line and just planting The Evergreens the existing ones that are there as many that are alive and healthy are going to stay I understand that and I reviewed that plan in depth while walking the perimeter of my lot with the pictures in there and uh I don't know I know you had said it was started by somebody else who passed away and I'm whatever happened after that um but when I walk the perimeter and I compare the paper of what trees are within that 25 ft that are dead and being removed or that are living and staying they do not match up with the trees that are actually there in place and I can tell you that no dead tree from that lot has been removed from that lot in decades that's the house I was born and raised in um so it's not like they miraculously disappeared in the last two years nobody was there cutting them down um there also is a concern because there's marked on there that you guys you know the not you but the the applicant is going to keep this one large tree as but that's my tree it's not even on the it's not on that lot it's on my lot well then so I have you're actually keeping it then I have concerns that the numbers may not be accurate um um I would also ask that maybe everybody consider looking at it in person again three years later to see what actually is there what is going to be removed and what is alive and what can say I think Mr Anderson has testified that he plans on walking the property with your planner to do all of that yeah and that's how you get to the determination whether the you can replace some of those buffer plantings and leave the existing tree or whether there's an error in what's a dead tree or Alive tree or and and those are so that's why I was saying that it's a little bit of a fluid situation in terms of what the replacement count would be I also think it could be possible there's confusion now is there a question yes uh then if there could be double checked that there's a not a property line confusion at the one section where there's a where it Jets out um where the dumpster was going to go because the surveyor did not Mark that corner either um the other corners of my property were all freshly marked that corner was not ever marked that is near some of the trees that are listed as belonging to that lot that are not um the original concrete marker is still there I would have to call my dad to tell you exactly where it is but it's there under some of the Dead um but but that one was not marked out which may also then be part of the confusion okay we look at that Mr Anderson when you walk the property I want to make a request to walk it with you please sure thank you so much of what I'm seeing there is just impervious land which led to my original question about adding Shrubbery and and extra trees where you can yeah hence the runoff hence the the you know the the flooding we need as much Shrubbery and and trees as you possibly can get there to help absorb the water and I'm not seeing that on the plan well we have 200 and some evergreen trees around the perimeter this is signicant so much gray matter which is a big problem so the trees will certainly be be addressed I know that trees will be addressed I don't want to take away your time but this I know a lot of people have problems with the retention Basin does it have to be there is that a buffer zone Mr Higgins and could you put parking spots there where that it's not a buffer zone though so there could be parking spots where the Basin is and possibly move the Basin I think that's an engineering issue because water flows in certain directions I think it would help with maybe some of the neighbors it would help create a buffer I you really don't need to buffer on Asbury Avenue I think some of the neighbors would prefer it at least I would I'd rather have the retention base behind my house than cars yeah I don't know that there's any locations near the neighbors's property that would be suitable I think they're higher ground from where we're coming from from our grades um but you know there's uh it's an ideal location where it is in on asbery some valid concerns about the standing water there I I live in front of a ret retention base and so I'm very familiar with okay next question um it was mentioned the plan said that it was going to be a solid white fence and then something was mentioned here about how it might be chain link is there a final decision on that and what what would be the contributing factors for one or the other so there was a recommendation from the police department that there was visibility through it and um and and there's a different standard in front yards for visib for the height of the fence uh when you have visibility through it or whether it's solid and at some point we probably did have a solid fence but the recommendation was and it's on the exhibits as basically is that it's non- climbable you know see-through fence so that's basically the typical example would be like a chain link fence with a small smaller mesh I don't think the board have approved the chain Ling fence of that extent anytime in the past and I don't think they will I think maybe an estate type fence that's decorative would be appropriate okay but but a chain link just isn't going to fly okay and I believe I heard correctly that that it's the fen is along the property line and then the 25t buffer of Evergreens is within the applicant property from the fence that's correct and now the fencing goes up to what was the dumpster area and stops straight there or does it cut across around the parking lot with all these changes at that point it it still follows the property line towards the front but it changes in height because it becomes in the front yard of of the building so uh so the distance between the front well it's actually the front setback but we've made it the front of the building we uh we've taken it from there and transition to a 4ft fence as opposed to six if we go to a solid fence that if we go to a solid fence for greater prob it' have to be a 3-ft fence going forward uh on on the towards Asbury Avenue that's with the area so now you're talking about fencing almost all the way to asbery Avenue or just to the end of the parking lot and then dropping the height and continuing dropping the height and continuing it goes almost to Asbury Avenue the thing that is would limit its location is visibility for vehicles leaving so sight distance and the um the widening of the road that would be consistent so that that the current sidewalk that exists Long asbery Avenue would match up to the proposed sidewalk with the same width of um curving and grass and the same width of shoulder there that's correct and the telephone poses will be moved as required yes for you okay the gentleman in the back had a question and if you can state your name and your address reference her law that she said that my last name I'd like to make a comment on that you don't mind and I intended to do it last time I I'm assuming that uh the U the property owner before uh was citing Daniel's law we're all familiar with it I want to just call your attention as my understanding that it was passed on January 12th of 22 uh we know it was the result of an unfortunate incident but it was very specific as to who was covered by the law and uh I haven't completely researched it but I have looked at some of it and it it cites that it's to protect covered persons uh who are former active or retired judicial officers prosecutors members of law enforcement and immediate family members residing in that household household so Madame chairman I would suggest that we respectfully ask the witness if he is in any one of those categories to take the benefit of the protection of Daniel's law I that's fine my name is Thomas dunan I live at 224b Cold Indian Springs Road my house AB buts the uh back of the PR church one thing I'd like to know is where is the new uh dumpster going to be can you please show that to me on your hand keep your pointer yeah so it's approximately right here that would be mine so you're going to put a dumpster in my backyard I would to ask that that's that's where my backyard would be right there so I would get I would have dumpster filled with garbage in my backyard that is that what you're saying that is the location that's correct right technically it wouldn't be your backyards on our property yeah but I would get the stench and I would get the the the Vermin that that have that come in to that that is what the board professionals have requested that we we relocate you can you can Rel relocate that to any part of that property and guess what you're going to be abing someone's property and they're going to have a dumpster in their backyard or just adjacent to their backyard that they where they once had trees okay any other questions yes um so it was about the EV spaces um so what is what deterrence is there going to be to not commercialize these EV spaces in the future there could be two years from now someone said someone comes in and say we we want to make we want to use these for Revenue generation for the charge there's stop that I answer I was going to say I believe Mr Higgins addressed that um just to recall previous testimony that if that were the case it would have to come before this board again that's correct we have to get Pro sometimes we can issue things with restrictions that will say this is only passed with the caveat that XYZ never happen can we get can we consideration can we get um can we somehow build into the whatever zoning laws that you put in place around this that any property adjacent to that would be notified of any um change in that use let me just um handle this yeah so if we did that that would probably be considered another use in the property we would have to come back for this board and similar to this application you'd get 200 foot notice we're not proposing that and we're happy to put as a condition of approval that we will not be renting out the EV stations again the EV stations are being put in to comply with state law because we have to put them in I as a developer attorney we don't like putting in EV stations they're expensive we have to do it now because in July of 2021 the state passed the law saying you have to so any Development coming before this board that has I think with retail it has to be more than 25 off street parking spaces any multif family residential has a standard has to provide these spaces now they don't have to be actual EV stations they have to have be Make Ready technology meaning they have to have the conduits and wiring underneath them that eventually they have to become EV stations and there's a whole timetable that the law lays out however we are not doing this because we're trying to somehow squeeze money out of random people coming to park their car we're doing this to comply with state law cuz we have to and then to answer country and to answer the other part of your question you made a request of the board that is something that the board can consider when the board votes and we are not voting right now okay any other questions that's it okay anyone else from the public yes if you can please state your name and your address hi my name is m i ended at 224b coding in Springs Road I have one very quick question what is the inherent benefit of the building there taking down all those trees putting in lights and increasing the amount of traffic that's going to be occurring on asur Avenue and all the other continuous streets around there what is the inherent benefit because you've said a couple of times there's an inherent benefit to having this type of structure built in the neighborhood what is an inherent benefit to our community I I can address this so I'll stop you are talking about planning testimony not engineering testimony we're not there yet to be our last witness is it regarding the plan that he's doing here no no that this was engineering testimony we're going to have planning testimony licensed professional planner Mr Anderson will come back and he'll go through the ml the statutory criteria Mr Higgins talked about the D3 standard the substantial there's a positive and a negative criteria we need to meet and we will put that all out on the table and then you can ask those questions I will say that churches generally are inherent inherently beneficial and that's typically seen when you're going for a D1 use variance which we are not doing here we're going for a D3 this use is permitted by ordinance I understand that what is theer bit of it but just but just I believe what you're referring to as her opening and that there will be additional testimony forthcoming the the term inherently beneficial is defined in state law and a law called the municipal land use law and it says it's a use that by its very nature is inherently beneficial to the municipality such as and lists churches schools h hospitals those types of things and it's it's a almost it's a legal term but it's also a term of art okay by being a church it is inherently beneficial to the municipality I gu at the risk of being to I don't understand what the benefit is going to be to the people who live there and whose properties are going to be adversely affected by the additional TR traffic the additional lighting and again you're talking apples and orang okay thank you any other questions from the public I did see a gentleman here please come up state your name and your address M Lord I 13 Sharon Drive um first question um would you consider scaling back the plan to basically try to accommodate a lot of the questions that were raised with respect to dumpster drainage uh driveway so I actually was going to ask the board if with our next resubmission we're going to resubmit to you would you like to see Green Park Green Bank parking spaces would you like to see that an option uh based on our traffic study and you could see what it would look like if we have less parking spaces abely I'm not about parking spaces I'm talking about the size of the whole facility um it's going into a residential area and this building is huge would you consider scaling it back I I do not have an answer to you I have to speak with my client about that but we would definitely consider green banking parking spaces because I think that would make a large a very big difference okay uh next question with and I'm assuming no questions right now with respect to traffic that'll be just the engineer Mr Anderson with respect to drainage um can you talk about drainage from the rear of the property um is it going to all slope towards the front or is it going to slope towards the houses on sh and drive along the perimeter where it's just right so all of the pace slopes towards the front of the property the uh slope between the property line and on Sharon on on the houses on Sharon Drive and this property slopes down towards the parking lot okay almost the entire uh property is will be collected based on proposed grades in those uh two detention systems there's only a small triangular area in could you point that out I wasn't sure where that triangular are is is that in the rear that's in the rear which is where where we're really doing nothing okay you know except for buffer planting all right you're not going to regrade that at all no the the the regrading starts here right and that water comes this way and then the rest of it goes that way it's all existing conditions and that's buffer planting just putting trees in as required by ordinance okay um I live over right over there and that was my concern is uh I already to get water in that corner and my concern is with the pavement I mean be getting more water yeah no that that's that's the high point in the back and it's all going to be directed towards the front and potentially it'll take some of the area that drained TOS your towards your property now and run bring it the other way um I noticed the permeability test was done April 2003 are you going to be doing a new test yes okay um will that test take into consideration that you're losing all these trees that would absorb water um it doesn't a permeability test looks at the the nature of the soil and how much permeability it has uh the drainage calculations themselves account for the change in coverage of what the lot is it goes from tree cover uh you know wood wooded cover to a pavement it that the the the amount of rain the amount of runoff generated is drastically different between those two ex understod with respect to um permeability and drainage um I understand you talked about how this is going to be permeable um and it would be soaked up will any of that be draining towards houses on sh and dve no as it is perme as it is absorbed no um you talked about the uh sanitary sore you going to extend out on yes going to come out the uh are those questions valid now or for for the engine okay um as house was brought up if floods here all the time um the county actually puts cones out there um so that people won't go through the standing water um how how are you going to connect to a sanitary sewer that right now backs up um is that going to be part of is there going to be reine sanitary sewer goes out the building and then up I'm sorry sewer that's out on the street right now stor the storm yes we're connecting to that and we're reducing the flow to it from the property but if it backs up now you're still going to be having new flow going into that storm sore we're not having new flow we have less than the flow that's going in it today from our property the requirements for your Pearl ordinance and state standard is that you reduce the Flow by 50% so if you have uh one SE one foot per second coming towards that drainage system now and it's flooding we have to discharge at a rate of 05 CFS and so for heavier storm the heavier storms the percentage decre decreases in terms of reduction but all storms would be reduce the discharge rate to the county system okay that will take into consideration um my question and concern is that right now if it floods and you still take back 50% um we still may have flooding there um in the future but I guess that's our problem not yours that's well it I'm sure the county is well aware of it and when we start dealing with Mammoth County if you bring us up to the county well they will bring it up to us most likely if there's a issue there and they may require some improvements to that system that we that they want us to undertake okay thank you any other questions from the public Miss cly can I see that on the heels of what I'm sorry your name sir load Nick Nick on Heels of what Mr Loi just said can I see that a moment can I ma'am you can come up better you do that than I come to oh it's fine thank you can you no no oh yeah oh yeah sure can is it possible instead of moving this over here like Mr Higgins or said can we put it here green if we Green Bank a bunch of spots we could put them over here that's what I'm thinking yeah we could put over here somewhere away from everyone's property could you attempt that when you show us the green Bank spaces yes we will attempt that as an option we'll do two different PL no problem okay if you can state your name and your address okay question regarding the UV parking spots and I know you said that it's something that you need to do legally um what can you do to prevent people that are not church members using them are you going to put a fence around it that has a lock that church members then have a code to get into what will prevent people from using them that are not supposed to be using them again at when they're first installed they're not EV stations so there's no there's nothing there for you to plug into it's wiring under the ground okay so so you don't you don't ever plan to make them once they're operational okay it could easily be something where they shut off the facility for the night and the power to those are shut down too so somebody comes after the church has left and tries to charge their car and it doesn't charge because it's not turned on right but they could come during the day and use it if they're not church members also then still it will go back and forth on Saturday between all the shore people coming down word of mouth stop in the church charge your car before you get on the parkway let's to prevent those people from doing that you know what it's more the church enforcing people using their facility if they're not members so I mean obviously they don't want to have everybody from the shore stopping by to charge their cars on their way out of town uh but it if it happens there no plan to put anything to prevent that that we didn't have a plan at this point but when they get do operational things and they see that if that's a problem for them then they will have to address it it probably wouldn't be a problem for them it would probably be a problem for the development and the people that live in the residential area that this is going into I would say problem for them as well they're paying for that electric okay so it's not like the church is not making a profit of people coming and parking and charging their I would like you to work with your client and bring that concern that we something to be done about preventing people that we can simply put signage up that says that's put signage you can put cameras Mr Delo has question Mr delomo has a question is it possible on EV stations that they can operational dur that's what Mr Andrew said church services when the church services are out they're shut down that's what I was suggesting yes they can also put card access on them too like your typical card swipe they can do that too you need a card in order to be able to use it y'all I own several EVS no one's going to stop there to charge your car I it it would take you'd have to leave your car there probably 24 hours I me when you can go a mile down the street to the supercharger and get it done in 30 minutes I'm sure you cameras as deter also I mean there's so many things we can put in any other questions from the public [Music] yes to talk to Phil Murphy about this if you can state your name and your address right now I'm not going to plug into it it's a no my name is taana torsa I live on 2801 Asbury Avenue which is um this property over here so my property would pretty much my backyard would back up into the garbage area which you just want to confirm that that's going to be moved right did I understand that right no So currently the garbage we were asked to relocate it by Mr Higgins from over here to over here however as a second option we're going to propose to Green Bank some parking spaces and we're going to look for a different location for the garbage to be decided with the intention to try to keep it away from neighs but that would be dependent on us getting released from the board green Banking and the traffic report but we are happy to look into it okay so I'm sorry for interrup another concern of mine is the entrance because that would be very close to our property line again we do have a ungravity uh my question is can that be moved because my concern is that people will come in and stop on our property because the entrance is very close to our property oh that's been an uh ongoing topic tonight whether we should keep it in that location move it back to the middle or someplace in between uh where it still is a a safe location so I think we'll Factor your concerns into those and as we're discussing this with the board's professionals we'll come up with the best recommendation okay and another question I have uh do you know just how what would be the um maximum capacity for the church that question was asked earlier different witness okay because that's also the same it's a big concern it's a high traffic area and you can ask that when the when that expert testifies you can ask it then okay any other questions any other questions from the public any other questions from the public yes if you can come to the mic state your name and your address miss curle you said there were how many seats though just help how many seats are there 450 seats 5 yeah when you count so here's the thing with the seats so we have seats for parishioners and then seats for the choir the parishioners that are sitting in the seats stand up and go to the choir so it's not technically more people it's just during the service if I'm a choir member I go and I change my seat cuz I sing through the services yeah so 52 so that's important to mention so you can reduce the parking because right now you're parking is based off of 502 yes ex but it's been brought up that's the strictest interpretation of it and yeah and then so before we go before we get to this uh young L's questions I did want to say that your ordinance requires a 10ft wide parking space and many municipalities allow 9-ft parking spaces if there's any concern for uh you know impervious area we can keep the same number of spaces and probably take 30 ft off the back of the property in terms of increased buffer that way and 9 9ft wide spaces are accepted almost universally everywhere in the state part of the engineers go ahead goe Ben yeah uh that's a a common request that we see at at the board and it's one that has been granted in the past and in this particular case that may be a viable option to reduce the amount of impervious surface uh if that is a concern yeah uh and like you said you can likely pull the uh parking areas back a little bit away from some of the property could you show us a plan with that uh yeah so how about what I was thinking is that we could do 9 by8 spots and then also show you some green Bank parking based on whatever our traffic engineer comes up with with parking demand and that will probably show a very different gray area can you you do both we'll show both yep we'll show PL we're gonna do 9 by 18 I think no matter what because I think it's a very good thing to do I was um sorry so we're do 9 by8 with the plan as is with all the parking and then 9 by8 with green Bank parking spaces so you can see the different designs and we we are willing to work with your professionals on the board with that with that new plan can you put the fence all around the property as we're discussing I think the fence is all around the property but for areas where it would interfere with site triangles or distances um with driving correct Paul yeah I think the bigger issue is there's no detail of the fence so we don't know what the fence is going to look we will also provide a detail of the fence which will not be a chain L which will not be chain link apparently you will not be a chain link for the newer board members both boards have traditionally granted a 9 by8 9ft wide parking space when the applicant is providing additional Landscaping above and beyond what the ordinance requires so I don't have a problem with it I don't think Ben does and it's up to the board whether whether you what's the current impervious calculation what like what what's required what's provided we are impervious coverage we are slightly over when you do the uh based on the buildable area we're 76.7% oh yeah okay on the buildable lot area and what is the limit 75 75 okay so this would improve this would improve that would eliminate that it would be compliant yeah and and in terms of it you know the condition that they've approved other ones in the past where you add additional landscaping or you're beyond compliance we don't comply and I don't think the extra feet will get us to comply to the tree replacement ordinance uh but I do still think uh that going to the 9 foot wide spaces is a good idea we'll get you there to the tree ordinance don't worry their impervious now is about 2,700 square feet over what would would be permitted okay so if they they would get considerably below that is permeable pavement considered impervious or perious it's still considered impervious that's right yeah Mr matlack and Mr Higgins would it help at all if there were separate a separate entrance and a separate exit for traffic flow at all or that would not make a bit of difference we would have to hear from the traffic expert experts and also we would have to look at the county they have their they are the ones who decide how many Cur Cuts occur on Asbury not not us and not this board so we'd have to look at the county regulations to see because I know I'm Hudson County planning board attorney and we have restrictions so we'd have to look into that your traffic expert our traffic expert will be able to opine on that yeah you should definitely hear his recommendation in terms of backup and safety and stuff in terms of the exit can you present it to him before you come back and get that yes perspective thank you the parking spots are they based on the max capacity of the building is that how you come with the calculation yes yes so and I heard you say that they're like 50 duplicate seats is it possible to restrict the max seating capacity to what it's realistic I don't know what the number is but if it's if you're you have 500 and you're telling me you're only going to use 450 yeah that that's exactly it's it's you know it's either 450 which is in the uh out in the seating area and then there's 52 on stage you know for the choir to come out of the audience and up above and yes we can reduce that but I believe technically we need relief because that wouldn't comply with the strict interpretation of your ordinance well you can restrict the capacity of the building to 450 uh the the par calculation is based on the number of seats in the building and the number of seats in the building is 502 that requires one uh parking space for every two seats requires 251 parking spaces what they're saying is that their only 450 seats are going to be used at any one time right that would would be their their request uh if if they decide to make it to uh ask for a variance to reduce the number of required parking spaces and I'd like to see CU that would reduce the parking even further yes would and we know I did speak with my client about removing the choir seats it's just they people inquire who are elderly that or and they need to sit in between their the praise so sugesting removing the seats we're just saying you make a realistic calculation of the spaces yeah it's it's just part of a variance proof as opposed to you know we have a conforming number of parking spaces now so we would add additional relief and no one ever wants to go before a board for a parking variance yeah okay okay we do have someone with a question can you state your name and your address my name is Katie buck and I live at 216 cenans um my question has to do and I'm not sure if we talked about this um I'm sure there's going to be plans for security cameras around everywhere and I guess I just have concerns about maybe being on camera in my own yard okay so it it's really not in my area of expertise uh it's it's either you know in fact I don't even know if it's in the architect could probably talk about it more but it's really a tech expert that would probably be engaged in construction drawing elements to you know to do uh cameras but I'm sure they can keep it from spying on your property okay any other questions from the public any other questions from the public just as a point of clar cl ification to revisit what we just said are we reducing the number of spaces to conform with the 450 can we just agree to do that no that would if if the applicant wants to request a variance for parking then they can do that we could also Green Bank spaces which saves us the request of the variance I believe we already agreed to Green Bank spaces but can we just can you just add another I guess the board can can can Mr mat finish finish his sentence that would be great so right right now the The Proposal is the uh 251 parking spaces the applicant is has said that they're going to go back and make some changes including green baging parking spaces and they may come back and ask for an additional variance for parking at which point you the board would have to decide if their reasoning for requesting that varing is valid and and we're almost hearing the testimony before before the variance has been requested uh but that that we would have to go through this again if if that variance request is bring us a plan with the minimal impact with that parking lot thank you Mr Higgins were you gonna yeah there seems to be a consensus of the board for them to calculate the parking based on 450 rather than 502 if you give them that direction they can do that on the plan I I would also just say to the board that that we still would need to hear from the traffic expert and and hear about the operations of the building before we actually make a determination on on granting any type of parking variant I think I think the cart is way over there and we're still with the horse over here right um there's a picture of the horse behind you and just because today folks get up and walk over the other seats that's one thing but if the church is wildly successful someday the choir will have to go to those seats in the first place to fill in all those other seats so I think we need to we can limit the seating capacity well the seats are still going to be in the church I think we should just wait to hear from testimony okay we're kind of speculating a little bit right now and I think we need to wait to see the plan see what their the Revis plan is going to propose and then hear the the testimony from the traffic expert okay any other questions from the public any other questions from the public last call any other questions from the public okay thank you Mr Anderson thank you okay we began at 7:48 p.m. and it is now 9:43 so I would say to be fair to ensure that we have ample time for Testimony as well as questions from the board and the public that if Mr douly if I said that correctly um will come back yes instead of testifying tonight I I think we have we should do a revised submission before Mr duly and have Mr Anderson walk you through that before we even get to architecture okay the one question I do have because we are revising plans is do we have a consensus on the driveway if we're we did not vote on it I don't want to vote I just would I would say if you could confer with Mr Higgins and Mr matlack about board questions so that okay um you're getting your information thank you very very much and before we close I believe Mr gazari listen to the testimony and obviously Council has been eloquent talking about revisions and of the life if there are going to be revisions I would request that those revisions be completed prior to the next meeting and reviewed by your profession prior to the coming back so we can start what you have before you rather than what will be in the future I would request maybe March March or April and we'll give an extension of time to act and that will give us some times to get our ducks in a row just a and I will re notice as well okay so just make Varian is required as a result ofs that you also notice I I said I read no okay just for uh the attorneys I just want to make sure um we will continue they will Ren notice and March 21st does not pose any problems for us with I would I I would love to say March 21st it's my daughter's 9th birthday so I I I I cannot I okay so that the next dat that's a hard no but the next date would be April 18th that's a much better date okay and fine should be fine mark my if we be okay thank you thank you very much so the case will be continued to April 18th 20124 and you will Ren notice okay motion to close the I I help to meet you okay and motion to adjourn I I