okay if we can call to order and we will stand for the flag salute second time is the best time I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all okay and if we can have a roll call please present here here here here here okay the note notice requirements of the open public meeting law for this meeting have been satisfied a copy of the notice having been sent to the Asbury Park Press and the poster and filed in the office of the Township Clerk on July 21st 2023 there is an emergency exit through the courtroom doors and two exits at the rear of the room there will be no smoking no new cases started after 10:00 p.m. and no new testimony after 10:30 p.m. in addition the applicant will be limited to 45 minutes of testimony all meetings will be video and audio taped and shown on the township of oceans Community cable channel 22 on Verizon FiOS and channel 77 on cable vision all cell phones must be turned off or if you need to make a call please make your call outside of the room we have two resolutions for memorialization Timothy Apert block 37 lot 28 13 Tilton Avenue and ocean and Robert and MaryAnn Bedford block 89 lot 5 15 North dimar Drive in Ocean and I will offer Sarah second I'll second yesi yes yes yes yes okay the following cases requested to be carried to March 21st 2024 and seeking not to Ren notice to be held in the public meeting room Municipal Building deal in Mammoth Road oakers Ocean gas LLC I aat Services LLC block 182 lot 87 1418 Highway 35 in Ocean Antonio Galina I aat Services LLC block 34 lot 12700 Highway 35 in Ocean our first let me just just so everybody know so if anyone was here on either of those two applications you need to be here on uh March 21st 2024 at 7:30 p.m. you will not receive any further notice okay our first case is Michael giosi block 159 lot 43 78 cold Indian Springs Road Ocean R2 okay if you can come up please and do um if you can raise your right hand do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth yes okay and if you can state your name and address for the record again Mike GSI 78 Colta Indian Springs Road Ocean New Jersey okay so from the last time that we heard the case there were plans that needed to be submitted with the new coverage percent um covering cold Indian Springs Road uh dedicating cold Indian Springs Road to the town by deed and we have the new plan and we're going to have um just additional information shared by Mr matlack and then we'll go into public comment okay uh so a new plan a grading plan was submitted with the uh revised coverages um the grading plan shows that there was a an existing retaining wall uh that extended onto the neighboring property that is being removed and it requires grading uh on the neighboring property to uh regrade um so an easement uh was was requested for that um grade okay and Claire we will Mark that into um as A1 and Mr GSF do you have any other testimony that you want to share I don't okay Madam chair if uh just I may I know you submitted a document signed by your neighbor correct that's not an easement all that is is permission from them to for you to do something on the property so there's going to have to actually be a recorded easement if the board is so inclined to approve this application okay so that's something you're going to have to work out with an attorney uh presumably to to and get your neighbors to uh to give you that grading easement it's going to have to be referred back to the board attorney and the board engineer to review to make sure it's done right and it's going to be recorded with the county cor's office okay okay so just so you know because I I have a feeling in your head you probably feel like you you already did that but it's not what you did is not an easement okay okay um I I was I was told that I just needed to get something from the neighbors to approve that they could if we needed to go on their property to grade the property that would be okay understood and that's and you have that but it's not an easement because that the difference is that there's nothing right now recorded that keeps what they're giving you permission for now into perpetuity so tomorrow they could go and change everything and and it would be irrelevant so in order to preserve what you are doing and make sure that it doesn't change there needs to be an easement okay so that's what's going to be requested as a as a condition of approval actually be required it'll be required yeah yeah it'll be required it have to be recorded so you understand is until that's done even if the board approves your application you don't have an approved application that has to that's a condition the condition has to be fulfilled before the application becomes an officially approved application okay okay to make that clear nothing about that till now okay and you wouldn't have so so don't so oh okay I didn't know if there was something I missed or whatever nothing and it wouldn't have been expected for you to come in with an easement already because the application is not approved yet and we don't even know if it's going to be so we've got to go through the motions here okay okay okay okay are there any questions from board members questions from the public any questions okay motion to close the public hearing Madam chair yes well I think the attorney I think I just tried to and I just do you have any questions sir for the attorney I I'll find an attorney and find out what I need to do to uh appease the seasman okay right that's what I need to do yes yeah okay and any if you talk to any attorney they're going to be able to help you out um and Bennett's going to be able to help you with the actual language um you know of what they're looking for as far as the description is concerned and you'll probably need an attorney also if you're going to be dedicating the cold inan springs portion of your property that's actually Cold inion Springs road an attorney will have to help you do that too so the same one could do both okay exactly okay got it yes I my Jen's doing it wow she magically appears okay and I assure you miss primco understands what we're saying okay any questions from the public okay uh motion to close the public hearing is there a second second okay yes yes yes yes car man yes chairwoman yes okay and I will offer a positive resolution with the condition of providing the grading easement is there a second second yes yes yes got ahead of yes yes yes okay thank you Mr J best of luck next case Allan sassone Block 24 Lot 1 300 Mammoth Road West deal R2 applicant is seeking to replace and enlarge an existing uncovered front porch uncovered front porch does not meet the required 50 ft front yard setback minimum front yard setback 50 ft required 48.8 ft proposed and and Madam chair I do have let me just Mark in what I have as far as exhibits and I apologize if I do things a little bit differently than Mr Steinberg just bear with me um there's a method to my madness and it all works out for me so all right exhibit exhibit A1 will be the application itself exhibit A2 is the zoning plan uh and then we have the board Zone exhibits exhibit B1 as in board one will be the zoning officer's denial letter exhibit B2 will be the zoning officer's report exhibit B3 will be the board planner report and exhibit B4 will be the board engineer report those are all the exhibits that I have okay and did I pronounce that correctly is it sassone you're good thank you good enough okay uh Mr s will you raise your right hand do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth okay yes thank you yeah okay and if you can just state your name and address for the record Allan sassin 300 Mammoth Road West Deal New Jersey 07723 okay and I will turn it over to Mr Higgins and then Mr matlack uh to give their report okay as I understand the application the the applicant has an existing front porch it's set back 48 feet 9 in where 50 ft is required by the ordinance and he's simply replacing the existing porch in the same location and I guess we need some clarification I didn't think it was being expanded and I know the uh agenda says it's being expanded so we need that clarified but the the setback is going to remain exact ly the same and I don't see any substantial impact okay Mr matl uh the only thing is in accordance with the township requirements a grading plan is required for all projects that disturb more than 200 square feet of soil uh so a grading plan should be submitted uh and I don't have an issue as that if that is a condition of any approval okay so Mr Sasson if you can tell us about your request and address uh possible extension and the grading plan so the request is like what everybody said I want to take the existing porch just repair it put steps and um conform for the law that's all I just need like another foot the way uh the architect drew the plans I just need another foot to go form um um to to the plans I just need an extra foot to make it you know the construction okay and any issues with providing the grading plan no I could I I could I could acquire that okay if that's one of the condition is not a problem okay any questions from board members questions from the public okay motion to close the public hearing motion to close second yes yes yes yes yes yes okay and is there a positive resolution one motion for positive yes yes yes yes yes yes yes okay thank you that's apprciate okay the next case is Maurice sour and Linda misachi block 138 Lot 89 801 Darlene Avenue Ocean R1 applicant is seeking board approval to change the grade more than 2 feet in connection with the construction of the inground pool the original plan which received both zoning and engine engineering approvals did not have a change in grade greater than 2 feet and Mr Sher Sor Shor okay do the same thing Madam CH yes uh so the exhibit A1 will be the application exhibit A2 will be the survey exhibit A3 will be the variance plan and then the board exhibits will be exhibit B1 is the zoning officer's report exhibit B2 will be the board planner report and exhibit B3 will be the board Engineers report and then I guess we're going to have an A4 if you this was the A3 that you that's just A3 okay that's fine that's all I have okay and Mr sh if you can raise your right hand do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth I do okay and if you can state your name and address for the record uh my name is Maurice Sor uh I live at 801 Darlene Avenue Ocean New Jersey 07712 okay and oh please have a seat thank you madam shair if I can just introduce myself Joseph vancini with Tri State Engineering survey and we prepared the survey and variance plan so to the extent the board requires we got to swear you in too absolutely that's what I'm Wai that's what I'm leading up to do I do do you do better or I do it I've done it okay Mr manini correct correct do um if you can raise your right hand do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth I do okay and have you testified before this board previously I have not so I can offer my qualifications if that pleases the board uh I'm a licensed professional engineer and planner in New Jersey I graduated from NJIT with a bachelor in science to civil engineering I've worked in Land Development specifically in civil engineering and land planning for the last 25 years during that time I've been qualified as an expert in those areas before many planning and zoning boards throughout New Jersey we'll accept thank you so much um just want to start with Maurice uh talking a little little bit about himself and the property and then I'll walk the board through the couple of variances that we need that's okay just one uh quick if Mr Higgins and Mr matl can just give us very brief there's the only variance they need is that they're changing the grade more than 2T in a small location at the northwest corner of the pool that that I think it's been constructed already if I'm not misten partially partially constructed and it from a planning standpoint I don't have any con real concerns about it I think the the the issues here are more engineering than they are planning okay Mr mat lag uh yes so our uh actually my report and uh Mr Higgin report both kind of requested this a uh the same thing a variance plan that showed the uh pre-existing uh Contours relative to what's what the final proposed finish product is going to look like uh that was provided uh the only other comment that I have uh is that is a a drainage um maybe modification uh the 100-year Water surface elevation uh in their drainage system uh it looks like it might be sarging out of one of the inlets in the back corner of the property I think a modifications required to make sure that doesn't happen okay Mr manini Mr manini I I don't think you need to go into background or anything like that as as as our professionals just said this is this an engineering issue so that's fine and and and uh I'm very comfortable working out that as a technical issue if the board sees fit to grant us an approval tonight as condition approval I'm happy um to address that that in our storm water management plan um just for context um when we were made aware of the VAR uh the variance that was necessary for for raising the grade more than the 2 feet and it's about 2.4t that's when we looked into how to mitigate that with respect to dealing with the drainage I think there's a perception when you raise a grade more than 2 feet how can that be detrimental to the neighboring properties obviously runoff and drainage is the primary way that comes to mind so there's a pretty significant underground storage area that's going to collect runoff from the roof which generally flows to the back corner of the property so just referring to uh A3 real quick the existing partially constructed pool is here um and so the water generally runs south to North so darling is at the bottom of the page which Drive is on the right side here so water generally flow south to North and so we're basically going to intercept some of that water put it undergr sort of mitigate that increase in runoff um really in excess of what the ordinance would typically require for for a pool because we are well within what's permitted in terms of impervious cover and building cover but we're going to significantly mitigate uh that impact to the neighboring property and additionally um Maurice is proposing uh Landscaping along that common property line to sort of mitigate the the visual impact um so I'm confident that we can address um any technical concerns that that Ben has um just for clarification there is one other variance that was requested a requesting uh variants to allow a block seat wall which was part of the pav patio in the rear yard that's approximately 43.4 ft from the RightWay of wikip Drive where of course we need a 50ft setback for front yard um in the R1 Zone um so that's kind of hard to see on the plan but it's this little seat wall here uh there's a pretty pretty significant wood it buffer of the healthy uh evergreen trees along wikip drive so as you drive down wikip you'll never see this seat wall but it is technically within the front yard and so we were asking for a variance to allow that to remain as well okay Mr Higgins or Mr mck any concerns about that variance for the seat wall no as I said I think it's really engineering more than PL okay Y no issues with that that variance okay any questions from board members can can you just walk us through how the yard drains and the and the drain how that system actually works yeah sure so um as I said the site generally drains from south to North so there is a series of yard drains along the common boundary so the western boundary of the property there yard drains um there's also where down spouts on the back of the house now just drain Overland we're going to intercept those roof drains so when we're doing underground storage uh we like to take roof run off because it's cleaner right it's less likely to have pollutants in it less likely to have uh leaves and debris uh if we put proper gutter guards on on the roof it's quote unquote cleaner water so when we're putting that underground it um lengthens the the functional life of the underground storage versus taking Surface run off could have lots of other things get in there and cl up the underground system so instead of trying to pick up all of the surface R off we like to kind of grab and roof R off intercept that water it still uh diminishes the volume and rate of water that's running off the site so essentially St stor management is designed such that we're not just making it as good as it is today we're making it better than it is today and that's that's the goal and that's the measurement that we are uh are governed by so essentially by taking that um roof run off reducing that down to essentially zero um controlling up to the 100-year storm um we really mitigate the impact Downstream where does it go after the yard drains inside into uh so it's still still overflows to the same location there's really nowhere else to push the water other than where it goes today so it still goes to this back corner and as with every other residential development sort of flows along common lot lines okay thank you of course is that why it wasn't in the original plans it wasn't in the original plans because it it wasn't required necessarily by code because we were within what's allowed um I I suspect that the the pool was built a little bit bigger because there was trouble with balancing obviously we're digging a pretty big hole we're generating a lot of fill Trucking that off site's very expensive so I think without realizing it the pool was built a little higher than I I wasn't on site for it so I can't speak to it but I a opining that it was built a little higher to sort of balance the cut fill on the site um and we recognize that that creates a condition that's potentially perceived as detrimental to the neighbors so it's our responsibility to mitigate that any other questions from board members questions from the public yep if you can go to the microphone please and state your name and your address my name is Antonio Russo 805 darl heav Ocean New Jersey what's the address again 805 and next to neighbor okay nice to meet your neighbor un condition they they hire we we should swear oh yes if you can um raise your right hand do you do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth yes thank you okay I was just about to do that be so short okay and your question my question is they hire pool guy unfortunately he built the pool higher now we're here for another variance to raise the grade 2 and 1/2 ft you have rules and regulations you have permits you have to fill them out you have to go by the guidelines if you don't I can go build a 5,000 foot house and it's only supposed to be 2500 but now I'm asking for a Harcher variance because I already did it this is This falls on the guy not on you and I you know I'm sorry we're under these conditions the runoff that comes through my yard I I'm flooded my neighbors flooded the Women's Club is flooded so I can understand what he he just said here with the drainage but I still get it you have a silk fence up you planted grass just like the pool guy said off to plant grass this and that numerous times I said the grade was too high they just kept going until I came to the township and they shut it down so Greg did his job the zoning officers did their job I shutting it down but now here I am I got two sub pumps in my basement I still get two inches of water every time it rains I got water in the corner of my property I have a garden I don't know what type of chemicals they going to use on the grass everything runs into my yard it's just not right for four or five years I've been dealing with this okay and I have pictures if you would like to flooding and the if if you don't mind me I would um if you could show it to the attorney first please this was the original grade where you could see all right my shed no no that's okay I mean I'm going to let you explain to the board what it is we're just going to mark it in um exhibit Let's see we can R1 for Russo one be probably the best way to do it it's a series of four photographs and we just and again will you tell the whole board what these four photographs are this is the original grade from when the property first got sold now the second grade is you can see the difference how it's been raised raised up over 3 ft before you could see you know the Fig Tree in the corner of my garden you see the roots now you don't see the roots it's three and a half ft up in the air all right why don't you you'll mark it okay and then what else do we have here's the flooding every time it rains through a Sil fence down the hill to my yard all right so there two photographs here and when were these taken these were taken out right after the rainstorm have numerous photos Okay but when what rainstorm was was in the past month in the last month that's original last month all right we're going to mark that in as R2 here's some more pictures of the floating okay again same the same event within the last month that's correct okay well Mark that in as R3 is a series of three photographs okay the difference of the GR explain explain that what what do you mean as far as the grade before you stood in that in that in your property you were the same size as my now this is the difference right Stand Out R4 is a series of four photographs showing the difference in grade post the existing work well sorry okay so this is just additional photographs with the grade right so this will be R4 is uh it's four phhs post grade and R5 is three photographs post grade what else is the cans of dirt they brought in to raise the property all right but what is it but what does this prove did you raise the grade well we can we can see that in that photograph though can we yeah I mean we don't need ex extraneous there's more floating two months ago all right so R six is four photograph post flooding okay that's okay good yeah it's it's your it's your argument so can I ask something sure no this is this is the back of their yard this is what they built it up to everything goes into my yard go into the W's Club it goes into the other neighbor yard this is his yard and I just want to make sure that Mr manini does get a copy does get to see all these before that he can comment on them but right Madam chair I have if Mr Russo wants to continue this so This did not happen prior to so when you walk on my property it's just like a sponge and not only that I put a second sub pump in my basement and I keep getting order now so you see what they did at the W and the Chick-fil-A up there just the I'm speaking to the microphone Bas maybe we need to do a catch Bas here throw some fish and when was the work done this is all been done in the past year it's all within 2023 yeah it's been going on for years what's wait what's what's been um they start construction and they stop and they start and they more dirt when I think with the question when did the flooding start all right so so but but they've been doing the work on the pool the entire time it's just within the last year they raised it okay do you have any other um questions or comments okay good Mr you should give Mr manini now an opportunity to respond if he wish does he have all the you have all the photo I have yes um I can't speak to what the conditions were were before I'll take Mr Russo's testimony um as as true um we haven't installed the underground storm water system so I think that's really going to significantly impact and mitigate uh the runoff that goes to his site um I believe the pool originally construction started in 2021 um I don't know how much of that happened over the past year but I um I certainly don't don't discount what he said but I I think that's really what we're here to do is uh to mitigate that impact visually and physically with uh pretty substantial storm water management system okay and Mr matl you had mentioned a drainage draining modification um did you get a chance to see the photographs based upon that does it seem like it will help to mitigate that uh I didn't see the photographs the the drainage modification that that I recommended was uh in the event of a 100 years storm um just to make sure that there are no negative impacts to the neighbors that the entire system can handle the 100-year storm um I I was going to ask if the storm water improvements had had been installed because I understand it's partially constructed and uh Mr manini did answer that that they haven't yet um so you know that's the the intent I'm I'm sure is to to collect all the runoff that's coming off the site uh so that it it's not causing causing these issues okay why was it necessary for the grading to be raised as high as it is you can have a seat Mr I have a question for before you go too far answer yours yeah go ahead uh I don't know that it was necessary I think I'd be hard pressed to tell you that uh there's no way this could have been done without raising the grade more than 2 feet uh I think it's relatively small deviation it's 04 feet um and that's you know not not to say that we're being dismissive of the code I think just code is there for a reason um but I don't know the 04 feet would have been substantially different visually than than what's there today uh I think as I said earlier uh uh my best guess is that um just balancing the amount of excavation and the amount of fill so that we didn't have to either truck in a bunch of dirt obviously would don't want to do that or remove a bunch of dirt from the site you tend to try to make that balance as much as possible so where you've excavated for the pool you sort to spread that around the pool and I think it just wasn't done uh as efficiently as as it could have been done and um and that's that's why we're here just to clarify for board's edification this applicant didn't do this work correct or did he no this is the property uner the applicant is is the contractor who was responsible for the construction so it was this property owner it was this property owner yes I'm just wondering if you can flatten it a little level it because if it has the construction for the pools been going on since 2021 is that correct sir yeah yes so and now in23 excuse me and now in 2023 the flooding began so go back to the grading when it wasn't flooding that just seems logical at this point it would require ripping out the entire pool and starting over but but that's not the board's concern I did not not suggest that it was the board's concern so so so the the re someone's got to give some type of a reason why this variance should be granted in the first place and it sounds like you've testified that there's no reason that it needed to go up this high in the first place sure so so I I find it difficult as a planner to make an argument as a C1 variance for a hardship when there's a reason reasonable case that could be made that the hardship is self self-imposed right so looking at it from the C2 criteria I look at benefits versus detriments and we view it the project as a whole as an aesthetic Improvement that raises the uh uh appearance of the property and the value of the property uh we also look at um how we can mitigate the variance um and we believe we've were able to do that um so we believe we satified the positive criteria in as much as we've uh promoted purpose ey the statute what's the benefit to the community but that he gets to have a higher pool that he would normally have and the community is flooded I don't see any benefit I mean what's the benefit I understand it's a difficult situation for us to be in uh to ask for forgiveness and it's not not the preferred condition however looking at it with objectively we believe that that there's no significant detriment to the public and no substantial impairment of the intend his own plan and that the perceived impacts that we're talking about can be very easily mitigated uh to a much better condition than they are today both visually and physically with the runoff I heard so there's a plan for the collector R runoff for the roof line but I don't think that's I didn't hear anything that's going to help with the grading of the pool all that water is still going to run off down the so yeah I think if I could add on to that you described it kind of halfway and I understand that the mitigation that you're talking about probably does solve the storm water issues but it I had to really read the plan to figure out what the design is so if you could there's dry there's two dry Wells that are like 150 square feet each more than that so if you could walk everyone through exact yeah yeah so so the the storm water management system that I've been referring to is essentially uh a much bigger version of a typical dry ball that you would see in a backyard it's um EX at it with uh uh semicircular Chambers it's on the second sheet of the variance application plan if you want to take a look at those details um so those semicircular Chambers are enclosed in stone which is then enclosed in Filter Fabric and uh we take the the roof drains and pipe those directly into the underground system by doing that it creates a significant amount of storage much more storage and is currently there just in the voids in the soil we're creating bigger voids more room for storage and therefore we can both control the volume of water and the rate at which it sort of leaves the site and as I said um the topography doesn't necessarily allow us to pick up the runoff at the farthest corner of the property but allows us to pick up intercept runoff that would normally go there collect that store it treat it in effect and and then release it slowly so that it it again not just mimics existing conditions or predevelopment conditions this is before or anything it actually makes it better than what it was before any construction was started and that's always the goal of swimw management can I can I ask how much of the proposed improvements have been constructed at this point the pool and the patio none of the storm water management stuff has been installed the uh entire patio around the pool and in the the back of the house correct okay so that can I ask the applicant a question M I know your engineer and planner has has opined as to why the pool was raised as much as it was but he really doesn't have any firsthand knowledge somebody must have come to you and said we have to make the pool higher for one reason or another I find it hard to believe they just went ahead and did it without talking to you do do you know the reason why it was done I I I was not not going out with a measure and a level I I wasn't aware of the change or the difference and I also wasn't aware of those photos I mean we live next door I've never seen one of those photos before yeah okay um but but I also like I said I I when we found out about it we obviously we stopped and we're trying to mitigate and from you know obviously talking and figuring it out we're trying to do our best to to limit as much of that water going anywhere other than staying on our property okay so that's what we're trying we're trying to trying to fix that but that was not we didn't walk into it and say hey we're walking in with you know obviously two feet from what I understand of allowable change in grade ended up at 2.4 we that wasn't like we're going to sneak in another four inches out of it no nefarious intent understood completely and I'm not really I'm not challenging you what what I'm trying to do is the the planner engineer has testified that this is of C2 were the benefits outweigh the detriments and Hein but we really don't know what the reason was for raising the pool the whole reason for the there are two reasons for the variant for the limitation on the twoot grade change one is Aesthetics and I I don't necessarily agree that raising the pool up is an aesthetic benefit but the other which is even more important is is the fact that the intent is not to have a lot of truck traffic taking dirt off the site or putting dirt back on the site and if it could be verified that that was the reason the pool was raised that could be a a positive reason a benefit to the township that the board could consider but right now we don't know that for a fact so I don't think you can consider it I was I was trying to see if that was possibly a reason okay yes to piggy back on on Ben's question so how much of the original plan for the Pool Install is done percentage wise is it 80% is it% it sounds to me like it's 100% but I want to get some clarification on what what what percentage of the original plan before the storm water management before this knee wall is completed 100% except for finalizing the pool and filling it with water and uh followup question at what point did at what point did somebody say this needs a variance because it's over I don't think we were four over the the two feet I don't think I don't think that the owner was aware until the zoning violation was issued we got a letter sent to stop work and we sto work and we haven't done anything since then so it's been empty is there oh I'm sorry no that was is there I did see your hand but anyone else from the public with a question or a comment okay Mr Russo I have more pictures to show the construction I spoke to the gentleman that you hire as the pool guy just make sure you're in the microphone who's the pool guy here who's here tonight and he kept telling me it wasn't going to get higher we weren't going to raise it going to your reference Mr Higgins of the trucks in and out this was more of a detriment because you had trucks coming in and out dropping off tandems of dirt which is in one of the pictures there so there was over six or seven tandems of dirt which is 22 yards 22 yards uh a truck it's over 150 yards of dirt poured into his backyard this has been going on like I said over a year year and a half just keep raising the property here's more construction photos they asked for a foot when they first applied for this to come out of the ground and they were granted after I believe it was the fourth or fifth time Greg would know who this the engineer the fourth or fifth time they were allowed to come one foot out of the ground they didn't take one foot they took a yard and one foot and we're GNA sit here and we're gonna say oh it's it's okay it's a hardship no they're asking for forgiveness let's fix this because I I have the problems the Women's Club has the problems my other neighbor has the problems it's not right okay in your what would fix it Ian what fix it I'm not an engineer but I do build homes listen put a retaining wall around the pool bring that grade back to the way it was around the pool have a have a three-foot walkway bring the grade back down put drainage in put a catch Basin like you see at the Wawa put that behind the pool throw some coish now we're talking okay any any other questions or comments I have a koi pond so I can sympathize you koi menl can can we require that the grade be reduced is that something we can ask that's it's a it's a legal question and yes you can thank you thank you because if you if you deny the variance then he's got to go back to where he was or come up with an alternate plan that isn't this plan thank you you're welcome any other questions from the public okay a motion to close the public hearing I'll motion to close the public hearing is there a second I second can we I know I would this is to just close the public hearing can do something else yes thank you I yes just to close the public hearing yes yeah you can do this do by voice you you you don't have to call the rooll every time that you close public hearing you make a motion you second the motion all in favor messing up our flow now sorry I'm just say you don't need to do that every it speeds it up I'm all about speeding yeah yeah can I all in favor to close the public hearing I I I okay and and can we just clarify I just want to make sure we no one else in the public had a comment did they because I want to make sure that I I I am the guy next door to him I'm sorry I thought I did ask comment or I'm question or comment but if I did not then I will reverse that just to make sure um I have a feeling you just asked for questions okay so to correct that are there any comments from the public I live next door to him okay if you can state your name and your address and then I will affirm I'm sorry Raymond scol one Judith Court I'm sorry Raymond scol could you spell that last name please s c o l l a y and your address uh one Judith Court one Judith court go ahead and do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth he's right there okay uh we we addressed that's the pool guy back there me we tried to talk about the grade why is it going so high and he said it wasn't going to go any higher like Antonio said basically everything I wouldn't reiterate everything he said but uh we try to you know you know figure out why he's going so high until the township shut him down and uh now we're getting water from his property you know how you doing I'm your neighbor you know uh I don't know what to do really I mean that's why you guys are up there uh I'm not good at doing this stuff so but it's high the the the now where his land is they saw those pictures are chest high and okay it's up to you guys what you're going to do I don't know but okay any other comments from the public any other comments from the public okay um motion to close the public comment is there a second second all in favor I I I I any opposed okay and um based upon what I'm hearing is there a positive or A negative um resolution for the variances negative is now right negative but with the stipulation I I would like to make a stipulation or suggest that the grading be brought down well you went in there no there no on a negative so if you turn down you turn down the application you madam chair could I have a moment to talk with the client just for a moment for you guys bring it back where it's not flooding well they're going to have to if they don't have a variance then then code enforcement is going to go in and it's going to make them do it thank you okay want it's at your pleasure mad mam chair if if I could just have a moment to talk to Maurice and see if there's anything else we can do to uh assuage the concerns of the neighbors if I could just have one minute then we'll have to reopen correct and then if they offer new stuff then you're going to have to reopen to the public again yes pleasure we're over time on this understood man I I I don't want I don't want to go the point I just want to see if if it's worth it for us to to carry to the next meeting and see here's the thing you completed your application um it's up to the board whether they want to grant you that right you don't have to you've heard the whole application it's been submitted so a consensus I'm getting is to go to a motion yeah um so is there a motion for positive or negative negative negative NE okay so we need we need a motion to deny the application if that's what you're doing I move to deny the application second okay clear any yes vot is to deny yes thank you you're welcome yes yes yes yes M chair yes the applicate denied so so just so you know I mean you can come up with alternative suggestions do what Mr manini suggested that you might do and come back with another application but it's got to be different than this application the the concern is obviously the water can we at least start building that drain because the longer it pushes the more water he's going to get and I understand his concern so they can't this board cannot grant you that you're going to have to uh submit whatever you need to submit to zoning and if it's meets the zoning specifications then that's fine but but this Bo this board can't do it until then we just have to keep things the way they are no further work being done even if it's to move water you can you can submit a separate application to put in drainage Improvement separate from the right okay that's a separate application but this board can't grant you that t I'm just wondering if we can at least help in that you would have to speak with the zoning office and and come in with a different application thank you okay the next case is Philip and Celia Celler block 26.8 lot 15.9 32 Crimson Circle ocean R3 applicant seeks approval to keep the existing Pool Patio surround in stone areas that have been constructed within the side and rear yard setbacks in violation of the original zoning approvals minimum 10 ft side and rear yard setbacks required 3 ft Side East Stone area 6 feet side eaststone area 7.5 ft rear pool patio and Surround uh proposed the attorney is Mr Robert Farber thank you chairman Beal um Madam Litman and gentleman of the board uh good evening I represent uh Philip and Celia Celler 302 Crimson Circle block 26.0 lot 15.09% very briefly I do not think we're going to have any issues with waterf flow it's simply a matter of addressing the um screenage between this slot and the next one and uh we're prepared to do that tonight as part of this application all right Mr Farber let me just Mark in what I have I have exhibit A1 is the application exhibit A2 is the finalized built survey exhibit A3 is the pop plan exhibit A4 are series of four photos and exhibit A5 which you just handed me is a series of six photos which will pass out to the board also I then have the following board exhibits exhibit B1 is the zoning officer's report exhibit B2 is the board planners report and exhibit B3 is the board Engineers report okay I will ask Mr higginson Mr matl for their reports I think probably from my end it's best to hear the testimony what they did why they did it and whether it makes sense that they did what they did it looks like the contractor was just trying to square off the pool patio and if you look at the original approval the patio the 3 foot section next to the which is permitted to be where it is runs the length of the pool then it jogs in 3 feet and goes in both directions again to be 10 ft away from the property line and the contractor just made it straight all the way across eliminating the jog to bring it 10 ft from the property line and then there's some Stone areas that are also within 10 ft of the property line that need to be addressed okay Mr nlac uh yeah so the applicant previously received a grading plan approval from the township engineer um however the improvements were not inspected by the township engineer during the installation so a certificate of occupancy was rejected because of that um and then so I I my only comment is the applicant should just verify that the drainage improvements were constructed for the approved grading plan uh and if if there are photos available of the installation that can you know typically be supplemented for a a an inspection by the engineer uh if that's available but uh the testimony about the installation is is what we're looking for okay Mr far Madam chairman I would like to call as our first witness Douglas clayland who is a licensed engineer he has to be qualified and sworn okay M Mr clayland um do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth yes I do okay and can you tell us about your credentials sure I am a licensed professional engineer in the state of New Jersey um currently work for insight engineering as a project manager I've worked there for the last 10 years working on a number of projects from single family homes to larger commercial site plans um I I also served as uh the board engineer for the city of Asbury Park planning board and Zoning Board I have testified before this board before I think it's been quite some time um and approximately 30 others in in throughout Mammoth and ocean counties well accept thank you um I'd ask that uh Mr Cleland be accepted as an expert in engineering yes thank you madam uh Mr Cleveland just very very briefly give a description uh as as to the distance of the uh area that supersedes by 2 and 1/2 ft and then I'd like you to describe for the board what drainage system was installed and uh just indicate when you actually physically inspected it so they know what they sure and you can illustrate on your uh exhibit up there yes so we did as uh Mr matlack said we did submit a a grading plan um you know as part of a zoning application it was deemed as fully compliant um once the zoning application was issued and the contractor submitted for building permits we were pretty much out of the picture I don't I can't speak much to what happened after that um but I can say that our plan was fully compliant um as Mr Higgins said there there was a um so let me back up a second so the pool is was proposed in the rear yard um um the majority of the pool patio was sat back from the rear property line 10 ft or was supposed to be and we did we did put a 3-ft wide emergency walkway around um between the the pool and the rear property line as is permitted by your ordinance um so it you know if it were constructed properly it would have resulted in a jog you know right around the corner of the pool um between the pool and the rear property line um does but it sounds like you know that did not happen our plan wasn't followed properly um and we're here tonight so I did go out to the site um today actually just to see what was what was built uh we did submit an as built survey which I have shown up here on the easel and I have here before me um just to take a look at the drainage and it looks like the drainage obviously we didn't I can't see what's what's already been installed underground um but based on what I can see on the surface Visual Evidence of what's been installed generally speaking it looks like it meets the intent of our original design so um you can probably see along the rear of the asilt which I'm going to get up and and point to where it is along the rear property line um along the rear patio there's there's a trench drain um you'll also notice there's a number of inlets they look like they're in kind of random spots throughout the yard but after going out there and seeing it um I think I I think I understand what the contractor intent was um and basically the trench drain captures Stone water from the rear paper patio which was always the intent um and then the other yard inets that were installed some of them are installed in in low spots throughout the yard um but they all tend to lead towards the front which right just to the east of the the asphalt driveway is the final Inlet and the chain of inlets um which was where we originally proposed it and it has the lowest great elevation and that is accs as the Overflow for that runoff so um you know our intent was to capture impervious surface protect neighboring properties from receiving that impervious runoff um and pipe it underground to that overflow inlet near Crimson Circle it looks like he accomplished that he added a few extra inlets which actually is a benefit from a maintenance perspective because they sort of act like cleanouts if you know over years if if they get dunked up leaves get in there um they can be jetted and cleaned um so it does look like it should function as originally intended in terms of drainage now I have a question ask before you go away sorry sorry I want you to take my pen and even though it's a beautiful exhibit you have up there just indicate to the board the area we're talking about because I don't want to speak for you but am I correct to assume this is called a leading question trials be but they it's just a diminus area of this whole decking area is that correct you're talking about what's what was built what's been exceeded it's from the pool here and there so if you were if you were to draw um a little jog on either side of the pool that's AOW we're talking about probably a 3ot wide section of patio that encroached beyond what we previously proposed along the whole back did this additional patio which is impervious did this additional patio in any way shape or form overwhelm or adversely affect the water discharge system no so it all should behave as originally intended um I was like I said I was back there today um the trench drain is consistent it's along the entire back of it so um from what I can see it'll it'll function as as designed and if I'm not mistaken is it not your testimony that the front side of the property compared to the back where the pool is is actually lower so the water would naturally drain that way yeah in the existing condition that's the general drainage pattern is back to front um so we we tried to maintain that and also protect neighboring properties and and the Overflow Inlet is much lower than the trench drain and the other inlets so it acts as U you know water always 6 level flows downhill and that's where the Overflow occurs so in this case the Overflow would be away from the contiguous neighbor that the three-foot encroachment faces is that correct that is correct yes okay thank you sir if the board has any questions of Mr uh clayland any questions from the board I would just if I can uh just to benett really Ben do you agree that it's more or less a the Minimus change from what was originally there yeah I agree with the testimony there is a a trench drain that runs along the entire back of the uh patio so even though there's additional impervious it's still all being collected in that trench Trin and as far as Aesthetics go uh describe the arborite Hedge that runs along the rear of the property sure so I was there today I saw them they're I'm not an arborist or a landscape architect but they look healthy to me there's uh they're they're tall they're they're um they look healthy solid screen solid screen um we indicate the number of them on the asilt there's there's five here there's 28 here 21 there there's a there's a really nice screen around the rear and side property line so you really do feel like you're you're in like a private Oasis just one other thing for the board's consideration to put it in perspective is that the area that's violating the setback in the rear is 7.7 ft from the property line where 10t is required and initially 10 ft was proposed like I said there was a jog in that pavement to provide the 10 feet and be conforming the Cabana is set back 7.7 ft the Cabana conforms the Cabana can be set back 5T so while the pavement the paved area can has to be set back 10 feet the Cabana can be set back 5et so I don't again I don't think this is is a major aesthetically a major issue okay any other questions from board members I just note I'm sorry to interrupt that photographs of the screening of the trees are among the paperwork you have up there so if anybody wants to see they are part of the record thank you I'm sorry okay and this didn't change the impervious uh calculation significant with any no it it uh did not trigger a variance for uh exceeding the maximum imper thank you any other board members questions questions from the public questions from the public or comments coms or comments any comments from the public okay just doing due diligence um Miss chairman I would like to call uh Philip sers as our next witness okay you said Philip sers what did he say sorry the applicant the applicant oh the applicant Mr okay thank you thank you oh and you can sit next to him if you yeah you can come in and if you can raise your right hand do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth I can affirm yes okay Mr seller you're the owner of the property yes and were you aware that there was a deviation when this was constructed no uh it was a shock to you when you found out we didn't know until we basically did not get our Co because of this yes okay and uh uh in the summertime when the and and the pool has been around for quite some time correct uh can you even see into your neighbor's yard from your yard okay and has any Neighbor come to you and ever complained or said there's any problem no okay um really nothing further okay questions or comments from the board questions or comments from the public questions or comments from the public okay motion to close public comment motion to close second all in favor any opposed okay I would just like to say that the purpose of uh the setback requirement is noise annoying a neighbor to mitigate any interference I think in this particular particular case given the screenage given the circumstances there really is no issue of that uh the salutory effect of the ordinance is not really insulted by this requested variance um it was not done intentionally it was accidental and most importantly uh there is mitigation where there shouldn't and ought not be any problem to any neighbors because of the system put in because of the natural Topography of the property with the water going away and and as the experts report have indicated I think the major concern was a screenage and I think that is really addressed here so having said that and knowing you have a full house I would just ask that you give us favorable consideration and thank you okay um is there a motion for positive resolution I move positive resolution okay is there second one second clear L yes yes yes yes yes yes thank you very very much you're welcome best of luck thank you next Matthew and Gloria ingber block 9 lot 46 257 Dixon Avenue Ocean R4 the applicant seeks approval to construct an inground pool Cabana with covered patio deck wall fence Masonry peers as well as the grade more than 2 feet and the attorney is Jennifer S crico good evening Madam chair members of the board as you said Jennifer crico here on behalf of the applicant I'm happy to say that we did not construct anything yet we have not violated any rules or regulations we are proposing a change of grade of more than 2 feet but as you'll hear through my engineer and planner we do have a hardship a double one actually we have a very uh sloped yard uh as well as a corner lot with the house pushed all the way to one side leaving the front yard area really the only area to put any of these improvements I know that you want to allow uh damn it I almost did it Ben and Jim not Bill Ben and Jim to uh put their reports in and as we've learned Mark likes to move his evidence in uh in advance so exhibit A1 will be the application exhibit A2 will be the the B in topographic survey exhibit A3 will be the plot plan exhibit A4 will be the Cabana plan those are the only exhibits I have on behalf of the Apple then I have the following exhibits on half of the board exhibit B1 is in board one will be the zoning officer report exhibit B2 will be the board plan report and3 will be the engine report would you like me to wait until after the reports to give you more evidence or do it now can we do it now you can do it now just one if it's a uh proposed Condition it's a color rendering of uh what was moved in as A3 and it's overlaid on an aerial so that would be A5 thank you Mr Higgins and Mr matlack I I think in this instance since the applicant does does have an engineer planner here rather than have me go through the variances try explain them we'll let him explain them and if there's any questions or issues I'm sure he will go through my report also so rather than do it twice let him do it once same same thing yeah okay okay so thank you so uh I have uh Jason fiter here tonight since the uh Cabana itself is self-explanatory we didn't bring the architect but Jason can speak to those plans as well both as the engineer and the planner uh I'm going to have him sworn in have him qualified in both capacities and uh let him tell you that he didn't wave in he took the test and he's a real planner hit it Jason do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth I do okay can you tell us about your qualifications please yep Jason fiter inside engineering licensed professional engineer and professional planner um I have appeared here honestly I can't remember which board but probably both I'm approaching about 100 boards throughout the state I've been licensed since forever 01 02 something like that uh Bachelor of Science and civil engineering from Lehigh University I've been accepted by the superior court system in New Jersey I've been a board member I've been a board engineer and I've testified everywhere we will accept thank you thank you so Jason you being the expert I'm going to hand it over to you to talk about the existing conditions at the site and what we're proposing sure so I'll run you through the whole thing and thank you Jim and Ben for giving me that honor so uh start with housekeeping so this is block 9 lot 46 otherwise known as 257 Dixon Avenue property 16,99 Square ft we're in the R4 Zone there's an existing home and shed on the property and we're surrounded by existing residential development significantly this home is a corner lot we have Frontage on Dixon Avenue in Wilson Drive and the home is situated all the way over toward the Western property line which leaves uh significant open yard space in the front yard area at the intersection of those two streets which you can see on the exhibit that was A1 no that was A5 sorry A5 okay you have um 11 by 17s of A5 we have a large one here that we can look at together uh the existing home faces Dixon Avenue that's a dead end Street and the applicant's house is the second to last house on that street so from 30,000 ft the applicant would like to improve uh the outdoor living space on the property projects like this are uh always a challenge when when it's a quarter lot because improvements will inevitably end up on in a front yard particularly when the house is situated all the way to one side we're not proposing any changes to the home except for the rear deck that deck is in need of replacement and it's also going to become a main access point from the home to that outdoor living space so the ain's looking to to replace it uh the design of that deck is shown on the plan on A5 the deck at the rear of the home that is the proposed deck however the design is still in flux uh but whatever the final product is it's going to be compliant I've seen discussions of changes it's very small areas here and there but so and if I can uh I do have a handout for the board and um just we didn't have time to get it the change occurred within the 10 days so the proposed change to the rear deck is just adding a little portion to the West I'm going to hand out an exhibit and should the board approve it for resolution compliance purposes we'll submit it it doesn't create any new variances it's in the corner and compliant so that'll be A6 and you'll see uh when you look at it uh it's just the portion towards the end of the house is filled in and it's actually circled in red on this plan sorry keep going y all right so the Crux of this application is the proposed pool patio and Cabana the outdoor space we're talking about is proposed on the east side of the home it's between the attached garage and Wilson Drive so we were faced with with a challenge when we set the elevation of this new outdoor space because the grade drops off from the home to Wilson Drive by about 7 ft that's a lot uh the street uh Dixon Avenue is is a steep Street and that translates right into the yard and that creates a hardship condition that we need to consider when we Design This the goal for the outdoor living space is to make it accessible from the garage door it's an attached garage front of the house uh and also from the rear deck so those are the two access points where residents of the home will get from the home to the outdoor living space and that is what guided Us in setting the elevation of that area so as a result we need to request relief to alter grade by more than 2 feet the change in grade varies from where it ties into the existing grade against the house to about 6 ft at the southeast corner of the proposed outdoor living space uh and of course this is driven by the fact that pools obviously have to remain level we can't slope them down we're proposing a wall around the the uh patio area and that wall serves three main purposes first it's going to act as a retaining wall to help us manage the existing topography and in that regard the wall is essential second the wall is designed to be decorative to mitigate the changing grade it's a masonry wall with a stucco finish and there's a nice ornamental rail on the top and third the wall and railing combination complete the compliant safety barrier around the pool the pool fence is going to be placed on top of the wall for Code Compliance and fall protection that's the ornamental um fence that we talked about and we created we also created what we feel is a very attractive entrance from Wilson Drive it includes Mason rep peers that will match the wall and also landscape steps that blend nicely in to the grade and just that's because we're still as it cuts back we're still much higher so we actually have to step down to Wilson that's how low Wilson Drive is it's a significant drop at 7 feet that's correct okay all right for storm water management this project is not considered major development which is nice and the proposed impervious coverage is well below what's permitted by your ordinance regardless we're proposing a storm water management system uh it's it's very similar to a drywell it's a length of 12in perforated pipe it collects runoff from the pool patio and the attached garage and puts it into the ground and then for safety we have a a positive outlet at the base of this proposed wall on all sides we call out a native planting bed which is going to add great aesthetic appeal to the streetcape and it'll also soften the look of the new outdoor living space we also designed areas around the the patio itself I'll call it the interior of the space uh for landscaping there's five existing Street trees adjacent to the project area which are proposed to remain they're mature and they have a low and wide canopy which is going to significantly reduce visibility of this outdoor living space from the streets and Jason that's why on the plan um it's not as evident on the color rendering cuz you're showing the canopy but on the plot plan it shows the tree well around it to actually protect those mature trees from any damage during the grading that's true okay correct yep all right so in terms of the variances so the rear yard to the Cabana we're proposing 10.85 ft where your ordinance requires 30 ft this is essentially a functional sidey yard and it it abuts what's seems to be a functional side yard of the adjacent property uh so I feel that this non-conformity is is not quite as significant as it may sound and Jay just to interrupt you well it's technically maybe the backyard of that property since it faces the opposite Street essentially it's as when you look at the area it's a row of trees and it's that's where it's closest to that property line so regardless of where the house fronts there's no large rear yard area for outdoor um Recreation that's true on the neighing lot there's also a shed on the neighbor's property in that area um sorry that's okay um the existing shed on the applicant's property is currently 1.6 ft off the rear property line that's being removed by this application so then the Cabana would be an improvement over that there is a hardship element to this variance because of the fact that this is a corner lot with an interior lot the setbacks would be two side yards at 15 ft and one rear yard at 30 ft but with a corner lot there's only one side side yard and the other three yards have that 30ft setback requirement the only sidey yard that we have available is occupied by the home that's where the home is is all the way over to the west side of the property so all the setbacks for our proposed outdoor living space are required to be 30 feet and Jason before you move on and just um asking the board to uh look at what we moved into evidence as a for with the Cabana the entirety of the structure is not enclosed there's large portions of it that are open uh that you can see through that air goes through there's just the small portions uh where the bathroom and the shower and the pool equipment are going that it's entirely enclosed that's correct okay and it's it's indicated that way on the plot plan the darker shaded gray um is the enclosed part the rest of it with that dot hatch that's open air okay thank you yep okay um next variant front yard to the patio so we're proposing 28 1/2 ft to Dixon and 20.2 1 ft to Wilson Drive and again 30 FTS required and the fact that this is a corner lot and the location of the existing home create the hardship element of these variances the better planning alternative I feel is to place the outdoor living space where we show it because it's substantially conforming to the setbacks for example if we place that outdoor living space behind the the home essentially everything would would be encroaching into the required 30ft rear yard the way we show it we require modest front yard variants from each Street um and importantly as it relates to Dixon I know it's only a foot and a half that we're over but the pool is actually set back uh 30 ft from that one it's just that little strip of patio that's correct that exceeds and that patio area actually is uh behind the front of the house correct and and importantly that extra patio area just gives a a little bit of a walking area around that before the um so there's no recreating in that area that's correct okay so but technically we need the variance but essentially at least as it relates to Dixon we do meet the intended setback except for that one little strip I agree okay so the best aesthetic for this outdoor space that we're proposing is to follow the home and remain rectangular and parallel to the home rather than to angle it and follow Wilson Drive and this is where a majority of the front yard encroachment occurs it's in that angled area along Wilson Drive you'll notice Wilson Drive and the proposed home are not parallel to each other so that creates a little bit more of a a front yard situation and I would just ask the board to look on the color rendering that was handed out over the patio you can see the 30ft front yard setback line and as you can see the Cabana is well behind it the pool the just the corner of it is behind it again it's just that patio area that extends and again it's it's so and just just for we don't shift the pool it's the patio area on either side of the pool that strip of patio that 3ft strip at the end of the pool is permitted because if you have a walkway that's 3 feet or less it doesn't have to meet the required setback so again it will be a similar to the last application where the original plan was just a little jog in the patio which didn't make a lot of sense and the same thing here it would be like a one and what one foot one and A2 foot jog that really won't it doesn't accomplish much so it's better just to run the patio straight and then again since this is a corner lot we're not able to take advantage of that side yard now about the changing grade of more than 2 feet where your ordinance permits changing grade up to 2 ft by right um our design is not intended to create additional height or any other benefit except to obviously create that usable flat area for the pool and the patio what we're doing is merely working with the existing grade and that's the hardship element to this variance the applicant is trying to create ease of access to the outdoor living space from the rear deck and from the attached garage and by holding those grades and creating that level area for the pool we're left with a grade change of more than 2 feet again with a drop off of more than 7 ft that's inevitable the fence and wall combination height is 6 ft where your ordinance permits 4 feet um a pool fence is permitted up to 5T in a front yard when it's within 15 ft of a pool um this variance is a function of the existing topography which is where the uh hardship comes in so we have the combination of the wall and that ornamental railing on top of it as viewed from the street isall taller than you would view it from inside the pool to have that um code compliant and Jason what is the height of the solid wall as opposed to with the fence on top I think it was um I think it's 4 and2 ft if I'm not mistaken okay yep and then a foot and half railing so it isn't just a solid wall and the the Landscaping that they see all the way around it if the board were to approve this we would agree to a condition that that would have to be maintained yes absolutely to mitigate that wall there is and just to clarify Mr vior said it was he thinks it was 4 and A2 ft with a foot and a half it is 4 and a half ft with a foot and a half thank you yes got it right okay uh there's two existing non-conformities they relate to the principal building we're not changing those um we're also eliminating one existing nonconformity as I mentioned before that's the rear yard to the shed the shed is coming out so in sport of those variances I need to demonstrate to you that at least one of the purposes of planning would be Advanced if you approve this application and I think there's a few first is I believe this is an appropriate development which promotes the general welfare this project creates an Amazing Outdoor Living Space it's going to add value to the home which is going to benefit the entire neighborhood and that I believe is what advances the general welfare this is in addition to the hardship this is under C2 that's correct so basically What's Happening Here is I I was suggesting to you the variances had a hardship element which would satisfy the positive criteria if there's any doubt in your mind that that whether there's a hardship I'm now providing testimony that they can be supported under the flexible C2 as well so that's what we're doing uh we're providing sufficient space and appropriate location for recreational use I I believe I've said this a number of times over the past few years and I I believe this to my core it's more important nowadays than ever to to get outside Co taught us that um not only for those health reasons but also because I I believe there's an issue of kids staying in side on devices too much anything we can do to create an inviting outdoor living space to draw kids and adults outside I believe would Advance this purpose we're promoting a desirable visual environment the proposed outdoor living space is obviously designed to be very attractive by Nature pools patios Cabanas Hardscape landscape are all intended to be picturesque so we advaned this purpose and lastly I believe that we're conserving property values in the neighborhood so Outdoor Living is very div desirable as our pools uh the be the beautiful space that the applican created here will certainly make the home more valuable and just as a rising tide raises All Ships I believe that more value in this home is going to mean more value for the entire neighborhood terms of the negative criteria I I never want to overlook the fact that the use that we're talking about here is permitted the purposes outlined in your 2023 master plan mirror the purpose of planning that are in the municipal land use law and I just went through those so in that regard this application is consistent with your master plan one of the objectives in your master plan is quote to ensure that adequate active and passive Recreation facilities are maintained throughout the township close quote and I think this application accomplishes exactly that your master plan includes a significant discussion about outdoor living space so in the land use element of your master plan at page 72 it encourages you to embrace inevitable changes to land use within the township one of the changes it specifically encourages is and bear with me here quote the changing attitudes toward the use and enjoyment of Residential Properties resulting largely from the continuation of stay-at-home practices during the covid pandemic and the resulting need for expansion of residential space and accessory uses including front porches and outdoor facilities including patios pools and outdoor living space in General close quote so this application is squarely aligned with this recommendation in your master plan your master plan also acknowledges that additional space for families to gather doesn't increase the intensity of the use but rather provide separate Recreation areas for family members the existing home is tucked over to the sidey yard leaving a large yard area between the home and Wilson Drive so this is the most appropriate location for this proposed outdoor living space the location also provides the most usable area in terms of setback requirements we're eliminating a shed that's less than 2 feet from your property line improvements are going to be very attractive and the existing Street trees create a substantial Vis visual barrier from the streets so with all of these considerations in mind I think if you were to approve the application it would not cause a substantial detriment to the public good or substantially impair the intent and purpose of the Zone plan and as you cons consider the negative criteria I always like to highlight that word substantial you're not looking to see if approving the application would cause a detriment to the public or an impairment to the Zone plan you're looking to see if it would cause a substantial detriment or substantial impairment and I don't believe this application Rises to the level of substantial in either case so on balance I believe that the benefits of this application substantially outweigh its detriments if any giving you the ability to approve this application with confidence that's all I have okay questions from the board um where did you where is that perforated PVC type can you point it out on the plan well you just really hurt me Mrs Litman because on the color rendering it originally showed it and it made it look like it was some above ground structure in the front yard no no and I took it off the color rendering but it is on your for where it's on one of these yeah no it's yes it's on your uh not that one that's the survey I can show you I can't the problem is in the color rendering it made it look like we were building some kind of additional wall yeah the problem is this is right so the perfor that's the wall right and that's the pipe that's going to collect everything in here TI and the reason I had them take it off of this is cuz you won't see it and what I wanted on color is what you're actually going to see so much bigger for me though I need it here it's actually the same size it's just in color colors better for my eyes it's you said it's draining into something specific though or it's just then so the patio area itself um has um trench drains those long narrow ones they don't look like much that's going to collect runoff from the patio area it's going to pipe it to that pipe that you were just looking at which is underground that will hold the water and allow it to work its way into the ground if for some reason we get a monsoon it it will take that water anything it can't handle flows out toward the street as it does today I have one more question this is where the um steps are you said it's now up seven ft um nominally speaking six and change something like that and that is it it is today so the the changing grade is 7 ft right so we need to level out the pool so now we have to manage that 7t if I may that it exists now yeah I because of the application this is right this is the big one and if I could just point out on the survey so the survey shows that the grade down by the street is by the sidewalk is 23 and the grade up by the house is 29 plus so there's a slope that goes all the way down now was that accurate it was 30 but yeah you got it I said up by the house was any other questions I I have a couple questions uh Madam chair um related to the the uh perforated pipe is is that are the trench drains hard piped connected to that that drive yeah the the plan needs to be updated there there was discussion about different ways to get the water into that pipe it needs to be hard piped well update that and the so the that pipe is is at elevation uh 2775 but then the Overflow yard drain is is way down the hill at uh 2365 is there a way to kind of detain the water in that in that pipe the way it looks now to me it it wouldn't really sit in there and recharge it would just flow down the hill and kind of be concentrated down at the bottom no that that's the intent and we'll clarify that in a detail you're exactly right anything else Mr matac uh no I think that's it um what's the uh custody for the stairs coming off Wilson Drive I I didn't understand why we have to put why just so a pool could so the pool could be accessed from Wilson Drive that's really just so you could come in off Wilson Drive and walk up to the pool patio already two the reason I asked is there's already two access points from the house per per the testimony right but if the K if the kid if someone's riding their bike or the neighbor's kid is coming over to play they'd have to knock on the door go in you know there was no there's no way to get in otherwise without coming up there concerned about liability though for the public well that's why there's that pool compliant back barer we we have a barrier around the whole pool that's a state law it's no it's no different than any other pool right but what's preventing anyone from there's a gate there's a gate there yes it has to be yeah it has to be self latching self-latching is different than locked like you can lift the latch that's not what I'm asking you anyone can walk in off the street and open the latch anyone could walking off the street and walk into my pool also right now now if that's not there so it's very different it's a very different issue so the pool code as Mr hiin said requires that self-latching gate where you'd have to reach over I the PO I think the question is why do you actually need steps from Wilson Avenue it's almost like creating like an attractive nuisance inviting people to walk up where you can't even see them from the house walking up from Wilson Avenue I mean it if you need to use the pool go in the normal door knock on the door and walk around what is the big deal working access from the driveway exactly there's access from the driveway it see it seems odd to me as a lay person that you have steps going from a street or people just parking on Wilson right big party and using that as the main entrance you have yeah you have access for you're invited okay understood we we hear you I I know that there are some neighbors here before we commit to anything I'd like to hear what their comments are also because it may change what we commit to one other question the I call the front of the pool on Dixon how wide is that little strip there the between the pool and the I guess you call the sidewalk patio I want to say it's a foot and a half or is it 3 feet okay because I think we can go three feet or going to have to measure yeah and we just also have to make sure that it doesn't intrude on the drainage as well and I would just caution the applicant to make sure it's it's built as built don't come back say we went a foot over and cuz you're going to be getting a jack cammera yeah we're going to make the knock it will be it will be built get CO as you know the last applicant didn't have me as their attorney we know that it will be built exactly how it show any other questions I know you're measuring but any other questions from board members think get rid of that yeah I agree it's about a foot and a half yep and do we have room to make it 3 ft to make a safe walkway around the pool or will it interfere with the um trench drain it will not interfere so if the board wanted us to widen it just for safety purposes we could do that any other questions your ab so we're asking the board if you want to widen the pool walkway around the right just that one area on uh the South Side South Side what it's only a foot and a half to make it three feet they probably did that did you do that though for the ordinance to be in with no I think it was just the Aesthetics but again we didn't expect there to be a lot of walking around that side but again if there's a concern we could address it well I just I can remember another one I just don't want to see somebody like where it's all been filled in with gravel and there's beach chairs and right Agreed 100% they have a hard time they'd be sitting on a pipe buried pipe that nobody can see so are we talking about widening that then oh it's at the board's pleasure worried about um it's at three now I think no it's not foot and a half fo and a half okay yeah widen it to three yeah you want more green any other questions it's going to run off turn fo half okay questions or comments from the public if you can come to the micr um is it behind that okay and I would just ask Madam chair that if we're going to do questions and comments at the same time to just have the witnesses sworn in yes if you can state your name and your address Nancy excuse me nancy4 Howen just SP could you spell C for us please so she's right here l a r k okay and what was the address again 254 Howard Avenue Howard Avenue okay I would be the Abundant and do you um affirm if you can raise your hand do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth I do okay and questions or comments sure so I I actually came into this with two critical concerns after listening to the plans that I also have substantial feedback so the critical concerns are proximity to my house um right now there is a very steep slope about six feet which I have photographs of to illustrate for for the board this car can you can you just so the board is totally orientated are you this house here lot 47 if you look on the big one 479 I pay my taxes I know that 47 you're you're next door on Wilson you front on Wilson also no I am on Howard it's the house right behind it then you can't be lock 47 no are you this here front on Howard you have a corner lock Howard is then you're on both Howard yes but I don't front well it your property does right I just want to make sure that's who you work and and to your point uh I found out today I also have a hardship because my house is squished to the corner with a lot of yard and I'm in a corner lot so I I have the same concerns but the critical concerns that I came with is for hey what SEC is someone pressing their button ma'am can I just ask you when you say the proximity what what is your critical concern I haven't been able finish because of the money let's see if we can get rid of the M someone is causing feedback it's going in out okay and I think they're on so we don't need to press them if I'm not mistaken okay so the first is the the proximity so the Cabana which is a cabana and a shower and a bathroom uh and something and pool equipment which is loud and noisy will be just over 10 ft from my property instead of the the 30 ft that's a substantial difference in variant uh we do utilize my backyard we don't utilize the front yard at all so we do spend Summers and we have very beautiful expensive screened in and glassed enclosed porch that overlooks that yard that we spend off so we would be experiencing whatever noise came from the children and the party that apparently is coming up the Wilson Avenue steps uh any noise that using the bathroom in the shower we hear we see them and they'd be UN about prop so the proximity was the first one I did not see the the hardship rationale for a full this par just wait one second I don't know is it this I think I just I don't know sounds like it's this one maybe are there papers on that one is that what it is no maybe see that okay sorry please continue your testimony I apologize it was is if you just speak into the microphone can't figure out what it is so that's fine so the second concern is the more uh serious of the two so there is a significant slope and I'll I'll share the pictures from the neighbor's yard to ours and it both goes what it goes both ways which is why I brought several pictures it's about about 6 feet maybe seven we've always had runoff problems the soil is primarily clay we've lived there substantially so we ourselves have installed underground pipes Drainage Systems we still get serious flooding the clay just doesn't absorb the water so with the good intentions of the pipe if it pools on top it will come downward and that goes into our property so we've had recently substantial flooding there are other neighbors here that are even farther away that have had that I am concerned that the increase in flooding would be there plus the disruption while that's being built the the area between the two properties used to be overgrown with Ivy and about six years ago we put a significant amount of money to make it a rock garden we landscaped it and I do have pictur too of what it looks like in the spring as well as what it looks like now I don't see any way that they could come directly up to the property and not ruin the work that we've had and we have to start all over again when they were done so those are the two critical concerns that I have I also would like to address some things that I heard about the attractive and aesthetic masonry and the clay that they'll be putting facing our yard that won't bother us because it's only a backyard um that was a bit presumptive we actually spend most of our time back there due to the screened in court we have two fenced in areas that we enjoy with our fam and our friends that are set back I actually just put the fence in this last year and I followed the zoning ordinance to the T so I understand she so that is where we spend a lot of our time with Grill and dry Summers it it would be very much interfaces so those are the concerns if they can deal with the flooding and I don't see where a drainage pipe can do that because the clay just flows over it I also heard I Believe Miss crico say it would flow as it does now into the street well it doesn't flow into the street ma'am I didn't say that I'm sorry the engineer did Mr fiter it would into our basement way it's been so there's a lot of presump of what has been going on that I believe will and I'd be happy to before she shares any pictures I have a bunch of questions based on what she testified to that I I just want to confirm you said currently the water goes into your basement I so I I didn't say that would we get significant flooding in a crawl space which is directly under the kitchen and in the basement but you don't know that it's coming from this property I do not but I can show you the elevations where it slopes down to that just I just wanted to make sure that you didn't know I can't watch it and see that that's where it comes from just before I do have one question so I don't know if you can see on there but is I wasn't able to see this so if I may right here yeah that's that's her so this is your home and how far are those the ivys that you were talking how far how much foliage is there versus yard versus the screen in picture I okay if you can show the attorney first may I ask well before we do you also um you said it looks from this picture that your yard is shielded from their purview can you actually see into their yard at all so so she has P Miss car has pictures which I'm GNA one two Are You full shield or they have fence the previous neighbors put up a fence directly on the property line it's Miss Clark I just want to make sure that you're being picked up on the microphone so yes yes but there are six photographs I'm showing to miss crico and Miss Clark did you take these photographs yes so uh four or five of them were taken the day that we received the notice and I came to see the plans two of them are in the spring earlier on to show how it looks when it's nice it happened to be uh full of dirty leaves the day that I got home but I wanted to show the slope all right I'm going to mark that I'm going to Mark the six photographs at C1 for being Clark one barbecuing outside like you were talking about can you see in their yard um no that is the lower level and we have put a fence up so we can yes we can see through the fence and actually they're their children they have four children the new people they do come poke their fingers through the holes to play with my dogs and I do get worried can I can I ask a couple questions before we move on to the pictures just just one thing Mr um lexine did you have anything else no no I just wanted to Mark in theot okay thank you so Miss Clark you say that your critical concern is the proximity to your house particularly because of the Cabana and it's going to be noisy um did you have a chance to look at the plans so I did okay however the noise was not the major concern okay but you if I I mean again I'm just I'm asking you some questions you offered your testimony I I so yeah I will answer that I looked at the plans but I am not an engineer and it is the first time I have ever looked at any blueprints other than my own house uh there were two people that helped me to understand somewhat I would be happy to understand more but I couldn't see anything you were present so that isn't on there but again and I'm not challenging you I'm asking you questions for the record so you know it's I'm not against you here of course okay so you indicated that the pool equipment was going to be noisy I I I'm not I heard you say noisy no ma'am I you I am literally I took notes as you offered your testimony your critical concerns were proximity to your house particularly the cabana it's too close you're going to hear kids going in and out of the bathroom and shower and that the pool equipment is going to be noisy that is what you said and my question for you is do you know if we need a variance for the location of the pool equipment so until I heard today that there would be pool equipment and I don't recall who said it okay in the Cabana correct but that this was the first that I considered it I had not considered it prior to so what I'm offering to you is and just so you know you're welcome to come here and look at the plan where I'm PL pointing at if you said you didn't look at it the pool equipment in the Cabana is set back 10 ft from the property line that's the required setback for pool equipment so whether this Cabana is there or not we're meeting the ordinance as as it relates to the pool equipment what I understood from the ordinance ma'am it this unfortunately and again I'm happy to talk to you outside of here at this point we're in a public hearing we're creating a record if in case it goes to court it's not a conversation between us it's me asking you questions based on your testimony secondly you had indicated that uh there was going to be a lot of noise going back and forth with the kids is there a door into the Cabana on your side of the Cabana I indicated I was concerned it doesn't mean that there will be there are potential concerns that I am voicing I have labeled them as concerns that they didn't come across clearly I am doing it now okay and I believe you called them critical concerns which is why I'm asking the questions so the kids coming in out of the Cabana kids are allowed to play in the yard correct they can make noise in the yard whether they're 5T from the property line or 10t feet the location of the Cabana isn't going to keep kids from playing in the yard would you agree with that I can't disagree with it okay and you had indicated that there's a slope and you showed the pictures and that you indicated that there is runoff so I'd like to uh take a moment if I may and and ask my engineer whether or not based on the grading and the differential whether or not our existing topography runs off on to m Clark's yard or in the proposed condition so looking excuse me looking at the survey the rear yard of the applicant's property uh the Contour suggests that the runoff flows in an easterly Direction it looks like a little bit of runoff from Miss Clark's property comes onto the applicant's property I I don't see anywhere where the applicant's property flows onto Miss Clark's property but I mean just zooming out a little bit by and large the water flows from the applicant's house to Wilson drive without entering Miss Clark's property okay and with regard and what we're proposing is not going to change that because by law we're not allowed to change the direction of the water flow correct correct okay and then lastly Miss Clark you had indicated that there was going to be disruption when it's built again whether this board grants a variance or not doesn't affect what we can do on our property and they don't have control over construction so are you just opposed to Construction in proximity of your yard I voiced a concern that The Rock Garden that we built that we spent quite a bit of money on would be red during toer working on the property L okay and I would just stipulate that should that happen Miss Clark has remedies outside of this board this board doesn't control that obviously we'd be liable for any damage that anything we do on our property would be done to Miss Clark so you can't deny a variance because construction is going to be disruptive I'll I'll agree with that that you can't deny we don't get involved in construction there's always going to be issues with the construction they have to meet the construction code we can't waave the construction code so any damage done during construction they're responsible for now the other the other concerns about the location of the Cabana you know those are legitimate concerns that that a neighbor can have that you're putting something within the setback when it doesn't when it's and you're you're requesting variance really from that right behind her house I have a question on the grade line because if you look at the side profile it's a drawing a102 and it says Cabana North so yes you're looking at the architectural plans mrki and it shows the grade sloping towards her property so while you're answering that question Madam chair if if I can well let me and let me it it doesn't it actually SL that's the back facing her property so it actually shows the grade sloping down towards Wilson that's the pool equipment right I would not look which is behind it her property is here propert here no properties here's the pool equipment the slope is going this way that's what you're looking at you're looking at it this way all right so the slope is going this way down down with to not towards your property as long as you're here can I ask a question can I can I can I just but housekeeping purposes Madam chair this application has been going on more than 45 minutes I'm not suggesting you should stop it because I think we're nearing the end of it there is no way we are getting to the synagogue tonight because this you don't take any testimony after 10: and it's currently 9:35 and the way this application's going which I'm not suggesting again that you should stop it you probably should finish it I don't think you're getting the men low either uh I'm sorry uh memo memo Investments either so I don't know if you want to carry those two applications and and let people go home if anyone was here for those two applications CU making them sit here I know we're not getting to the synagogue there's no way because there's no way memo is being done in 10 minutes and I believe that there's other test um public comments right exactly so I don't know if you want to deal with those two applications from a housekeeping perspective and then just continue with this one and let this one finish but I leave that up to the board I just wanted to bring it to everybody's attention just process wise that meeting on the 29th can we add any of this to that no room and what I was going to request and again because it's a synagogue well I'd love mimo to also get the same privileges because it's a synagogue the delay and the delay is is really impacting our ability to as you're going to hear through the testimony serve the congregation and pray so I'd like to request a special meeting if possible I'm sorry Mr lenski I I know how to read the 29th was rough I can tell you right now Sy they've been waiting so long we won't we won't get to it realistically because I believe there's more public um comment so just for a clarification and I don't mean in February I mean maybe a special meeting in March where on this we have the full we're doing the one in February it was tough to put together oh the February 29th was a special yeah for other cases I believe multiple if I'm not mistaken um so just for a procedural and you said it's mimo I'm sorry I was calling it memo memo it's memo memo yeah I I called it the wrong name but it's memo Investments um since since we're right in the middle of one I don't want to steer too far from this one can we officially carry it to if they put a wall so Claire what does the March agenda look like right March 21st we need to make sure everybody's available except this is open make this a wall so right now we already carried those two billboard applications to March 21st those applications are not going to be short think there Chang in April is the um church the church church they were carried without um without having to Reen notice so that would put us at May is there a way that we can may I ask carry it to the February 29th meeting for now recognizing we're not going forward on February 29th give Colleen and I an opportunity to see if we can come up with a special hearing date and then if we can't at that point it can be adjourned to the next that way it saves notice and it doesn't make us try and search for a special hearing today so we're we could carry it to February 29th just for the purposes of providing a date correct you can do that but with the knowledge that that there's no way that they're going forward on the 29th correct okay I don't have a problem with that anyone have any issues with that that's for memo and you know what I'm saying is soog 29th I'm going to try and come up with a special meeting that works for everybody and and we'll do the same thing for the synagogue also correct so for memo and the synagogue of Oaker Community Center Carri to February 29th for the purposes of determining a date only correct um without having to R notice so if everyone on the board is okay with that we'll make the general announcement that both the memo Investments application and the synagogue of urse application are being carried to the February 29th meeting at 7:30 there will not be any further notice however the neither application is going to be heard that evening so if you want to come that evening just to hear when it's being carried to please do otherwise you are free to call the board secretary after the 29th and I'm sure she'd be more than happy to tell you the dates that they've been carried to okay does everybody understand I can we take a two-minute recess also before we continue yes if if anyone needs to and we will get to um because I do have questions about Miss Clark's um the the runoff yeah um so can you one thing it go to and I see what he's saying about this curve but no no she's be careful what you wish yes to their testimony that it goes to Wilson's you can you can you can this is your downgrade here these lines show that right right as your L as your lines get closer together that's showing the steepness of the gra so the lines are actually coming closer together on her actually coming it's actually coming down this way just from of the right right so the water is running down this way actually running off so he was accurate in that it's going to Wilson technically it's going it's it's but how when it goes over you're thinking of the lines as theic it's perpendicular to the and that would be a side is actually running this way the way that the lot lines are run the way that theal lines are that's what he corre that's that's the dirt that's the H oh that's the clay that she's talking about that is that is the H okay the dirt's made of mostly clay that's in my neighor so so the hill the hill goes up this way and as the lines get closer that's I mean whatever whatever it is it's an existing thing now well I knew what you were trying to say so the actually moving away her Hill is the opposite side of the flow so to speak correct okay so I will ask Mr matl to confirm the only place where it looks like it's sloping towards there is like a one smoke right here it's sloping down into her yard what is that right that's there's no water there I mean there's no um that's just see how the white lines property right that's and then it turns and it all slows that's not even that's not even her property so could it be that neighbor mhm looks like it is it looks like there's a few people there's a little bit there's a little bit in her property that's right was open right mostly open so wall they do have one already well I thought you said it was completely said said it was so one area was going to be walled off and then you're going to have the wall from the bathroom there's a solid building here and there's a roof here this this is closed off I mean it's it solid or so it's like a you know how like the prev basically denied it because running they're requesting the variance because it has to be so the first one they changed it and wanted forgiveness they're not changing no they're not changing the grading twoot over twoot VAR because it's and at one point the pole is going to be 2et higher than the ground you put anything flat right CU I didn't want to I didn't want to look like Hypocrites where very different very different very very different well I'm glad that you could explain it cuz I couldn't who are we UMES coming you have access from from the driveway and this is like learn how to read can dided won the lottery no I don't have yeah maybe dad gave you my number I think so yeah I don't have I don't have you in here um I have you yeah he said yes but um calling miss crico calling Miss kmco I'll go get her oh I got her Sor I to explain okay but we're um is everyone here where did he go think he just went to the restroom I just and I'm he was here for this um I just want to clarify so memo and synagogue evokers we are clear to hear the new date February 29th they will figure out a new date and then we'll have that on the 29th to announce okay and if for some reason we cannot get a special meeting date then we will still give the next date for the next at that meeting there's no chance we are hearing those two applications on that date okay okay so I do want to um Miss Clark so there was testimony about water um in your basement in in your yard your area but there was also testimony that the water does not go to to lot 47 it actually goes to Wilson Drive so I wanted Mr matlack if you could just please explain that on the record because the visual kind of looks like it slopes but then it was explained how it is actually perpendicular if I'm saying that correctly yeah the so there there were two things that were brought up um the the there's the grading plan that's uh part of the engineering drawings and then there are the architectural plans I I wouldn't go by the architectural plans because they're more of a uh just for a visual just to give you an idea the grading the engineering uh grading plans uh the way I'm looking at them uh I agree with Mr fitcher's testimony that the uh slope is going towards Wilson Drive and not going towards the neighboring property okay um I just one second I believe miss that was that was the only questions at this point there seems to be a legitimate setback concern go ahead oh I'm sorry you were talking to me go ahead finished I'm done I didn't hear him but it's fine there seems to be a legitimate setback concern what if you um rotate the shape of the pool to the left 90° 90° thank you so now the pool and the um Cabana um a line in the same uh uh shape and then you can move them both up from the um the the um property line so instead of being 10 ft uh set back maybe it's 20 now cuz you can move them up understood and and the one thing that we may consider is if we make the Cabana smaller it's permitted if it's 150 square ft and less than 10 ft it can be 5T from the property line without a variance so we may consider reducing the size of the Cabana because the inclosed area really is much smaller than that probably not much more than that so perhaps we depending on where the rest of the hearing goes perhaps rather than reconfigure the entire yard because doing that may be problematic so what we may do is reduce the size of the Cabana so we can put it at 5T from that property line without the need for a variance can you clarify that wait what if you reduce the size of the Cabana and then just kept it because the pool instead of moving it back towards the prop the of the Cabana there's nowhere to move it up towards the pool so what I'm saying is your ordinance provides that you can have one accessory building right if it's 150 square ft or less oh I'm answer Mr chimur or 10 ft or less it can be 5 feet from the property line that's not that doesn't matter if it's the rear yard doesn't matter what it is thank you so all I'm saying is yes it's bigger but it's giving the solid W and again we can't move it closer it's it's in it's a it's 3 or four feet from the pool right now so we can't move it closer well you don't need as big of a pool or you don't corre I mean there are things you could do no no no I'm saying I'm I'm just answering Mrs Litman that you can't just shift this around of course you can always change things the other thing we could look at is swapping the pool and the Cabana and then the pool can be 10 ft from the rear property line knew you were going to say that well but it can so so again if we if we if we move the Cabana and line it up with the house or line it up with a 30ft setback we would need a variance and the pool can now be set back at five at 10 ft from the property line so this all goes to why we think this is the best zoning alternative because we have a wall up against her property where no nois is coming out of that wall as opposed to a pool that could be in that location with kids jumping and screaming so again we didn't finish and and go through and I didn't have a chance to respond but if I was the neighbor I'd rather have a attractive back of a building blocking me from the noise than having the noise 10 ft from my property line I need can I ask you a question on you might have answered my question so I heard the Cabana is that going to be a solid wall not louers but a solid wall cuz I think that would help you along the back of the Cabana is yes is solid wo okay and will be finished on the backside yeah yep so it's not going to be exposed Center and and if you look on the drawing there's we have a whole row of trees there too yes that we're not we're not planting those right those exist they exist those all exist we're not taking any of those down no I I think to help with yours if that was a solid wall there I I'm good with that I'm not good with the sidewalk or the side entrance I understand that and and believe me I'm going to have to explain to my client that he's going to be losing using that I I read you loud and clear Miss Clark did you have any other questions or comments would the elevation change and the insertion of the plumbing for the Cabana cause any problems and again I am not an engineer those are concerns that I think so we can stipulate that they won't and that the engineering plans show that they won't and that by law we're not allowed to and we need to get Plumbing permits and construction permits so not only is it reviewed by Ben matle the board engineer we then have to go through the whole construction Department to do it so no we're not allowed to and we're not allowed to if that fence is yours on the property line but that is not mine oh okay well are we leaving that fence or we replacing it I don't no no I'm asking my engineer to tell you I couldn't find it in in the plan so I don't know that's one of my questions there's a there is a new fence shown on the plan going along the back property line to the front of the Cabana and and attaching to the cab so maybe one so there's going to be a fence there regardless between the two properties so a fence the wall and the trees correct okay Miss Clark any other questions or comments no thank you okay any other any questions or comments from the public yes sir if you can come up to the microphone oh sorry I didn't see you me miny mo but I don't know who would win that one too by the way and if you can Chambers 247 Howard Avenue and can you raise your right hand do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth yes I do thank you Mr Chambers I'm assuming you are LW 48 um you you next to Mrs Clark we're across the street from Mrs Clark are you you're not on that map then we Howard uh hold on a second we're right here okay so you're off cross the map cross Howard yeah from the property talking about here both of my points and questions have to do with elevation can I ask a question first about elevation you can question and comment was there an option to scoop out ground for the pool as opposed to add elevation in order to do that it would bring the pool down towards the street level that's good well again and it would not be accessible from the house what we're trying to do is put the pool at the level of the house why is that the the um the residents of the home are going to access this outdoor living space from the rear from the deck and then from the attached garage and that's what I was describing how we set the elevation of this place it's pinned by the house the existing grade at the house we can't change the elevation of the house so when you come out of the house you're at the living space and then the pool is level so when you carry it across that's where we are if you were to drop that you would then have steps outside which is not great for the resident but it also doesn't fix the problem at the street either because you're still going to have grade to make up 7 feet is a huge drop so there's going to be a slope there's going to be a wall there's no other way to work with it well you do have some steps right so you go from 33 down to 30 so you've made a choice to have a minimal amount of steps well that's the goal right yes there's two steps there but it's at the same level as the driveway there's no Steps From the driveway got it okay so my two concerns are that the raid change is dramatic uh we go from 6t drop across around 60 ft of land to well to that same 6 ft drop across 12 ft of of property with the change in ter Mr Chambers and I'm going to address I'm going to address this rather than Jason because he might over complicate it that's not exactly true and if I L it is no if I can show you why that's not true can we turn it a little bit just so resident um um community members can can see so right now this is at elevation 30 MH and this is at elevation 23 yes so the change of grade goes from there but when it gets to here it's already down when it gets to the edge of the M it's already down to 28 here so it's sloping down from here so it's not the same 6 ft sloping down by the time we get there we was we're looking down after the pool the pool's level like the gentan said the water level so right in this corner here we have a 6ot drop across 12 and 1/2 ft of property if I got numbers right there um the 6 feet so the the wall the the I'm sorry the change in grade which was the focus here the change in grade at that corner so that'd be the southeast corner of that patio is 6 feet that's that's the six feet yeah if you go to the northeast corner it's about 4.8 ft if you go to the northwest corner it's it's only a few inches and then if you come on the corner by the garage that'd be the Southwest it's a little under 2 ft so it varies the the the biggest change in grade is that Southeast corner and my concern is that six foot change in grade um is not going to absorb much rainfall and increasing The Hardscape so I am concerned about runoff that steep changing grade and addition of all the pool Hardscape well so it's it according to the grading plan it's about a 4ot change in grade the way you're looking at it so from the corner to the street what's a change in grade the grading plan shows about 4T the the change in grade is six in that one spot existing proposed the change in grade is is six but the the drop four feet and again what's that what's the elevation at that corner you want the low side or the high side at the base of at the base of the wall it's uh a little over 27 ft okay so at the base of the wall we're at 27 and we're going down to 24th that's at theit this is higher but there's a wall here going down yeah the sidewalks the other side of that the point is it's a roughly six maybe 5T drop from that that that across that the pool is flat and then there's a wall wall down and at the base of that wall it's at elevation 27 and then it goes down to 24 so the Wall's not on top of the grade no right correct the wall is holding the grade back right go so it it at the base that well it's only a 3 or 4ot grade over that area so and the the wall is going to be hidden by the Landscaping so it there is no that's the whole purpose of this so it's not we're not creating any steep slopes the same gentle grade is going to be there it has to be if I can just show you on here if you see these existing trees if we change the grade the trees would die which is why we're not changing the grade you're scooping out a little collar around the only on this side scooping no we're just protecting them from it so you're thinking about the changing grade from where the pool is down to the street but that isn't where the slope is the slope is at the base of a 4 and 1/2t wall okay that that I need that clarification the wall is not on top of the change of no no no no no it's at the bottom of it okay the the top of the wall is where the pool grade is okay thanks so it's a 6ft change in grade and top of the wall is 6 ft I'm walking on the side wall no no no the top of the wall is 4 and 1/2t feet changeing grade on top excuse me the wall is 4 and2 plus 1 and2 on top of a changeing grade correct so I'm standing there in the corner of Wilson and Dixon if I look literally 12T which is the you're looking at the fence yeah so I'm seeing how higher fence it's Apex how how high is it above me the well the 6 and half six you're saying if you're standing in the patio area how high is theall he's not he standing on the sidewalk right here all right so the sidewalks at about 24 yeah yep and then the elevation of the top of fence is about 33 and a half the wall is about 32 anyway my my concern was the visual block of the of the wall might like a fortress more than a no no the grade at the at the bottom of the wall is 27 and a half so it's only it's only about 3 and 1/2 ft from the sidewalk to the grade at the bottom of the wall and and then you're going to have Landscaping so we were talking about landscaping and then on the other side of the Landscaping you're going to have a 4 and 1/2t wall so again what you're looking at is a slope to a 4 and 1/2t wall with a decorative fence on top with Landscaping in front of it I apologize if we weren't clear that you thought the wall was on top of that 30 absolutely not that's good to know the intention of the wall is to create that area so we can decorate around it right can I just clarify this um so if you're standing at the sidewalk you're looking at the wall the wall is about uh 4 1/2 fet tall the the grade of the pool area is lower than the top of the wall the wall is a foot and a half higher than the pool elevation uh so there is a a little bit taller wall than what needs to be and I imagine that is for fall protection and for privacy that's correct yeah the wall and the ornamental fence yeah together form the code compliant pool barrier but from the ground you're looking at a 4ot wall with the one and A2 foot tall or and a half Miss kmco are you putting arbores or anything around we're actually rather than not Arbor varities I mean um we're putting landscaping around the entirety of the wall like a of a hedge of um we could do a hedge we were hoping to do grasses or something a little more attractive or native than a hedge but if the board wants us to do evergreens and not do a more interesting visual we can certainly do that something around the entire we are putting something around the entire wall not on the inside from the pool side from the on the one that you that you like you see you're going to see there's dark green around all sides of the wall That's all Landscaping but not grass that I'm going to mow I mean no no no grass is yeah big ones y okay Mr Chambers any other questions or comments suggestion is that consideration i' like to the feedback could the pool not be put directly behind the house and and and and long axes same long distance of the house just SP I didn't follow that no because of the when by the time you have the 10 ft right right here I'm talking yeah you only the deck you only have 20 ft there so you would have a 10ft wide pool and it would be up against the deck 22.6 89 ft behind the deck my my question is could it not fit there and remove the deck was that deck currently there yeah there is a deck currently there could that be removed mean is that an option well they are the testimony was that you're removing the deck and replacing it okay so it will be gone for a short time right and that's not an option so it it's not the application so can you always we could put a kitty pool in and not need any variances and I'm not being cute when I say that no you're not being cute no I'm I'm being serious about it saying you can always be more conforming but this is the application that we have before the board and we put all of the proofs on for it so the answer is can you build a smaller house always can you build a smaller driveway always can you build a smaller pool house always but this is the application that we're coming and presenting all of the hardships and the reasons under the municipal luse law as to why we believe it's appropriate and the best zoning alternative so to answer your question yes they could do what you're suggesting but that's not what's being presented today okay I just put that there as a a seed to be planted no and again what I offered before is a pool can be 10t from the property line if it's back behind the house it's going to be 10 ft from the property line in our opinion this is a better zoning alternative because it's moving the noise away from the neighbors immediately to our is that North plan up plan up thank you thank you any other questions or comments from the public yes sir that's hurtful Mr Chambers if you can state your name and your address please I'm Norman Ginsburg and yes I do do you I need to do my Spiel do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth absolutely and your address please your address what's your address I'm sorry your address 258 Howard Avenue which is lot 48 back here um and uh obviously I'm not in the direction of any of this pool business but I am concerned because there is a a shed there which which uh let me back off just a little bit my opinion this whole 100 house section of of Wilson Dixon Howard Pine Etc uh nothing there except the new houses and probably not even though conformed to any of the zoning in other words they were built before the zoning laws came I'm too close to these people they're too close to me same thing over here there's those setbacks this shed uh Mr gin one second is the shed being removed the shed's being removed Mr Gins I understand it okay my concern uh is and I'm glad the shed's being moved what steps are being taken to prevent drainage from coming down here right here the ground slopes back in on September the 29th there was a little bit of rain that came down and we had seven in of water in our basement right now that doesn't happen too often because we moved here in 1977 and never had a drop of water in the basement and these storms due to climate change are a little bit more so I'm just concerned that uh we're not going to get any extra we're not changing the grade there we're not Mr Ginsburg we're not changing the grade there at all no no I I understand but you're taking away the shed so you think the so what you're saying is I don't think that the shed is causing I just no no no is the shed the the grade the grade is going to stay the same correct and where you just lifting that shed out and throwing it away right there's going to be grass here now currently the shed takes rain and pushes it down here on one side because that's the way the roof is right this side it goes the other way I'm just wondering if there's going to be any change here because of removing that water excess no I don't believe I noticed I noticed in the plans uh which you started off preface in place say we've made some changes to the plans um in the time that I looked at them no sir the only the only change to the plan just so you understand and we didn't change them yet we're suggesting we're off bring it the only change we made is add a little bit of deck here no no other change that's fine uh the change that talking about I believe is that there is a down spout here that indicates that it it went out into the and now I believe that you're proposing to put some sort of a uh piping on the ground to open here and shoot it all the way down I want to know is that still the case that's a that is on the plan you are correct and is that meant to uh mitigate any extra rain that is coming down here it will yeah so when the shed comes out you'll remove impervious so that by Nature reduces runoff and we're also putting that pipe where you said to capture roof run off from the roof leader and bring it out towards Wilson which is where it gets eventually anyway no but he's asking so it that pipe is so this pipe the water currently goes here this pipe is going to direct it to here that's the pipe I was talking yeah it's going to direct it away from your property correct it's directing away from his property yep that's correct okay thank you any other questions or comments from the public yes sir and if you can state your name and your address Thomas Bane address is 255 Howard Avenue and do you affirm to tell the truth the whole truth I do okay and Mr are you on the map uh no he's not no you're not is it p a y or p a i b Oh I thought you said pain no that's a different it's a different so how do I spell you L name B is and boy a i n oh okay got it longtime resident of that neighborhood um I guess I think it was brought up earlier when we talked about uh the area over here fronting Wilson and the steps um I think You' voiced a concern sir about the steps why are they needed um I agree with that concern um to me that seems like you're building a community pool um I Heard the state statement about well the the friends and neighborhood kids and stuff like that um I'm 63 I've never ever in my life entered somebody else's property through some back gate uh so um neighborhood kids that that's you know sorry I don't buy it uh that seems to me like you're creating a open space for your friends coming down from New York because let's call it what it is um you know and my concern here is you're parking here you're parking here you're parking here you're parking around the corner on Howard I live over here on a dead end Street I have to go past that um so Mr Bane I think Miss crico indicated that we'll remove those St remove the STS okay that's a guarantee yeah if the board approves the application the that would be a condition that the have to be move from okay um I just don't want you to have to Del labor the point I think you're on the same page as the board and and the okay just thank you Mr B okay questions comments from the public questions comments from the public okay motion to close the public hearing inose second okay all in favor I any opposed okay very very briefly because unlike the attorney that went before me I know when to stop um that's a joke and I yelled at him for doing that um I hear what the neighbors say I hear the concern from Mr linesi we're agreeing that we would amend the plan to eliminate the access stairs from Will Wilson um we would hard pipe the patio to the trench we would agree to a condition that there be Landscaping maintained around the exterior of the wall I think that when you hear the neighbors's concerns the concern is bringing the activity closer to her property and by approving it this way while we need the variances as it relates to the front yard you're actually moving all of the activity much further away from our property than it could be so for all the reasons that Jason in put on the record and I think all of them are valid I think as it relates to the neighbors concerns this really is the best zoning alternative she's going to be shielded by a building and all of the activities on the other side of the building stairs and that gate yes got it and it's a solid Cabana wall if I'm not yes solid Cabana wall and and we can maintain a solid fence along that property line as well we may replace the existing one but we can commit to a solid one along that property line I just want to make sure so the St the stair and gate on the Wilson side are being removed yep you're going to maintain the the fence or you're going to replace the fence or do both the pl show a new fence okay and what I'm saying is if we put a new fence in we'll commit to it being a solid one okay that's all well you have to put right okay we're going to put in a solid fence thank you you're welcome and that's along the uh the rear property line correct yes and the solid wall for the Cabana yep you're also making the concrete a little wider that's up to the board we're happy to if you want us to I don't have problem with that no no no it's fine just leave it how it is I I don't really care if you make it this whatever we approve not one inch bigger fine do you want do you want it done is just whatever I don't care either way no doesn't Mr matlack or Mr Higgins any reason why it should or shouldn't no okay no anything I have Madam chair okay um we closed the public hearing sorry I just had a brain freeze for a moment um is there a positive resolution with the um conditions I move awesome resolution okay s second I'll second yes yes yes yes yes yes thank you very much thank Youk you and a motion to adjourn oh call so you can make the motion to adj oh okay heard I'm motion to adjourn is there a second second all in favor