e e e e e e e testing testing good e e now testing e e e e e e e testing testing one two 3 two 3 testing test e e e e e e e e e welcome to the township of alridge zoning Board of adjustment meeting May 2 2024 adequate notice of this meeting of the Oldbridge Township zoning Board of adjustment has been provided in accordance with the open public meetings act at least 48 hours prior to the commencement of this meeting by prominently posting in the municipal complex an announcement giving the time the date the location the agenda of this meeting by mailing such announcement to the home News Tribune filing a copy of such announcement with the municipal clerk and posting the agenda on the municipal webbsite M belli could we have a roll call please certainly Miss Andrews pres m chalier here Mr ISO here Mr Stoner is not here Mr tester here Mr Victoria Mr Singh here chairman Sullivan here for uh the sake of uh brevity and some housekeeping issues those here in the courtroom tonight I would ask you to please put your cell phones on mute so they don't disrupt any of the testimony also we're being televised uh live on OB TV5 simultaneously this is recorded by YouTube it's it's being broadcast live by YouTube live and you can look back on that and uh if you'd like to see them again you can find it there by rule of the uh board we stop testimony on all evenings at 10 pm we go till 10:30 and the reason we stop the testimony is to allow for public comments I don't know that that's going to be uh that late tonight because of the fact I will announce that one of the applications that was on the agenda is not going to be on the agenda tonight I'll do everybody a favor if you happen to be here for that I'll call this out of order it's the last one on the agenda for tonight in 39-22 3z it's jcpnl First Energy it's in the 01 Zone the physical location is 1345 Englishtown Road uh that's a major preliminary and final site plan with d variant they're looking to remove an underground storage tank and install an above ground storage tank the public hearing for this matter has been adjourned to June 6 2024 if you're here on that matter tonight it is not going to be heard it will be on our agenda for June 6 2024 no further noce yeah no further notice on that oh I'm sorry no with notice they haven't appeared yet that is with notice if you're in that area you'll if you're in the 200 foot Zone you would receive another notice all right that brings us to our minutes on the agenda we have two I'll read each one board uh minutes March 7th 2024 hopefully everyone's had a chance to look at them review them absent any comment I'd ask someone move them for adoption is there a second chier roll call please yes Mr chalier yes Mr ISO yes Mr TTI yes Mr Victoria yes Mr Singh yes chairman Sullivan yes uh board members minutes of March 21 2024 same applies someone move them for adoption please isone is there a second Andrews roll call please miss Andrews yes Miss Chevalier yes Mr ISO yes Miss testver yes Mr Victoria yes Mr Singh yes chairman Sullivan yes item four on the on the uh agenda this evening's resolutions we have three of them we'll take them separately 04224 Z Heraldo Rivera there was a c variance Mr Clancy yes um Mr chairman this is for 18 Holly Street in Oldbridge we heard this back at our last meeting on April 18th this was for um uh a legitimization of a 50 by2 deck in the r six Zone was required a minimum of 9 foot accessory side setback where four feet were proposed um we did hear testimony that night it was voted on an approved by the board it is on for final approval tonight with um all the ordinary conditions uh thank you Mr clany board members you've heard the resolution I'd ask someone uh to move that please test the ver is there a second ISO roll call please miss Andrews yes Miss Chevalier yes Mr ISO yes Miss tver yes Mr Victoria yes Mr Singh yes chairman Sullivan yes uh 05 2024 Z Michael Harris also C variant Mr Clancy yes this is for Sutton Court in Oldbridge this was another application we heard on April 18th 2024 this was for uh the proposed addition of a 16 by8 um rear yard aluminum roof attached to uh the primary structure it's in the R20 uh low medium density residential Zone um the the or variance was for U minimum principal setback of 50 F feet where 40 was proposed um this was heard that that evening it was approved by the board it is on for uh adoption tonight with the ordinary um conditions attached thank you Mr Clancy board members someone want to move that for adoption is there a second ISO roll call please miss Andrews yes M chevalia yes Mr ISO yes Miss tester yes Mr Victoria yes Mr Singh yes chairman suvin yes all right finally uh 09 2024 Z NVR Inc uh doing business as Ryan Holmes me a preliminary and final site plan with variant Mr Clancy yes this was for the uh the site along Poor Farm uh Road here in Oldbridge is block 500 lot 20 the uh applicant had been before the board uh a number of times to get approval to do this um there have been several prior resolutions uh adopted by the board this particular one was was an amendment um there were two uh specific issues one was the uh board or member these were um um the side by side uh yeah the side by-side properties where the decks needed to be um that were looking for approval that they could bring them to a zero uh side setback on that um uh to make that available for everyone who uh purchases in there and also there were three particular Lots slots 23 24 and 25 where there was um the uh impervious coverage being slightly increased to um 58.3% the board did hear this and did approve it on that day um the ordinary conditions that we would see are in here the only additional condition is that they apply they comply with the prior resolutions to the extent that they don't conflict with what has been adopted here this is on for final memorialization tonight thank you Mr Clancy board members want to move it Andrews mve your second T roll call please miss Andrews yes Miss Chevalier yes Mr ISO yes M tester yes Mr Victoria yes Mr Singh yes chairman Sullivan yes that brings us to our applications uh under item five on the agenda this evening there is only one as I mentioned previously it is 27-23 2023 Z Vision Oldbridge LLC this the tcd Zone the Town Center District uh block 12261 lot 64 physical locations 3963 County Road 516 in Oldbridge multif family residential D variant applicant proposes to demolish the existing Garden Center construct a single multif family building consisting of 68 departments including 11 affordable affordable units Peter cler esqu esqu for the applicant sir uh good evening Mr chairman members of the board your professional staff and members of the public for the record Peter clauser with the firm hbr Pape on behalf of uh the applicant um this is an application as you stated for variance relief for um property that's located at the intersection of Higgins Road and uh 516 uh construct a mold M family dwelling it's an inclusionary development so 11 of the apartments will be affordable um for the Township's use and their satisfaction of their COA housing requirements although I guess there's no COA anymore um what I want to impress upon the the board and and the uh and the members of the public that are here is that apartments are permitted in this Zone apartments are conditionally permitted use provided that they're on the second floor the reason we're in front of the zoning board is because we're proposing apartments on the first floor without commercial so um Apartments were uh apartments are appropriate for this area the governing body has made that decision and it's in your ordinance in your town center uh District ordinance but because we are proposing them on all three floors it requires D variance relief the reason that we're doing that and the bulk of the testimony that you'll hear this evening is um with regard to the uh access of commercial space uh and the need for residential housing I have um five witnesses as part of this application we have Laura Lon who's our professional engineer we have Todd ganet who is a uh an expert in commercial real estate I'll have him share his credentials with you and um he'll discuss the sort of the real estate situation in the area we have Nicole gabard who's the applicants architect and I I'll speak to this in a minute but that's where we're going to stop tonight when we get to architecture after that we have um Frank movich who's the traffic engineer and then we have Allison coffin who you're all very familiar with with regard to the planning so I know that the board does not have Rakesh here tonight your your site engineer um we do have L uh we do we do have your your planner and and your traffic consultant so it's not uh fair to reash or to this board if we go too heavy into engineering uh with laureli um however uh because it's a by ated application we're requesting use variance only and should we get through this process and and a use variance is granted um we would have to return to this board for site plan that's really when you get much deeper into um this the the engineering testimony uh so I found this out when I arrived here this evening I quickly asked Laura Li to lighten up her testimony uh for purposes of merely describing the site the variance relief that's required the existing conditions just so everybody has a sense of what's going on we need to we need to know what the thing is that we're talking about uh and then I'll bring up Todd and then I'll bring up Nicole uh to do the architecture and then I'll ask um that we conclude our presentation at that point I know it's the board's policy to always open up the matter to the public so we will retire to the rear of the room ask that you open it up to the public we will listen uh to the Public's concerns I will take notes um and then we will be prepared to respond to what those comments are when we return to the board uh and on that note I'll ask that the application be carried uh to your next available date but we'll get to that so um that's the procedure that I'm proposing I hope that that's acceptable uh to the board and if it is I'll start by having Laura Li sworn get her credentials on the record ask that you be accepted as a professional engineer and then take us briefly through the site okay I have one question yes I'm GNA ask for Council uh can we proceed without an engineer being present um as far as I know there's nothing that prohibits it okay keep in mind too Mr chair I have a court reporter here I'll provide a transcript and Laura I will return and we will provide any additional testimony that reesh needs I don't have a problem with it I just want to make sure we put that on the record and we protect the board thank you yeah you can certainly introduce your first witness thank you very much Laura lonten you solemnly swear any testimony you provide before the board will be the truth and the whole truth I do can you just um reach down and push the button it'll turn green that little ring you can let go okay I do thank you and can you just um place your name on the record first yes Laura Li Toton Crest engineering associate Inc 100 Reich Drive mstone Township New Jersey tot is T is and Tom o tteen thank you so much we're very familiar with Miss Totton over the years I certainly am I've seen her for years testify for the sake of the people in the o audience and for those watching at home would you please ask her to to inform them who she is and what she does and how she's going to do that thank you very much and please be seated miss laurelai where' you go to school what's your degree is what's your license is it still valid and where do you work so I've been dying to say this get a little closer 47 years since I graduated from Lehigh University with a Bachelor of Science and Engineering 41 years since I obtained my professional engineering license which is still in a good standing just renewed it two days ago 30 years since I joined Crest engineering after working at six five other firms prior to that and 25 years with Crest as a principal and I have appeared before this board and the zoning board numerous times and thank you for doing that we appreciate that and congratulations on all those years they add up to a lot but uh we we certainly recognize her expertise we accept her thank you very much so lauraa you're aware that you do not have a tennis partner here to go back and forth with in Rakesh this evening um so if you could um take the board lightly through uh the existing conditions of the property and then through the proposed uh development and I would like for you to get the dimensional variances on the record so we have them uh and then we'll we'll go from there yes so the project is located at the corner of Higgins Road in Old Matan Road also known as route 516 it's lot 64 in Block 12261 on the official tax maps and contains 3.26 Acres it's it's an interesting property it's an existing Garden Center and contains a significant number of existing buildings storage tents storage containers and a big portion of the of paved hiin road gravel parking driveways and brick paaver areas approximately 95% of the property about 135,000 Square ft is impervious the site slopes gently in an east to west Direction the high point of the site occurs in the Eastern portion of the property adjacent to the jcpnl power line easement and has an elevation of 118 the low point is located in the southwestern Corner near Higgins Road and is about 11 ft above SE uh sea level there are no steep slopes on this site it's around 3% 1 3% slope gently uh and presently the site drains to the existing drainage system along Higgins Road uh it's located at kind of a high point the the uh Towers go up over a hill not far behind it so it drains uh to one tributary of tenant Brook and there's a couple of others also about the same distance away so there are no flood planes on this property and per the go web and New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection the 2012 aerial photography there are we lost you yes okay I'm back there's uh as noted there's a jcpnl easement and tower on the property this easement uh has been in place since the 1930s and does not prohibit Construction and as I noted too a large portion of uh in that area along the frontage Hagen's road is in the on the property uh the zoning is the Town Center District 1B which is I think a neighborhood commercial type Zone apartments are conditionally permitted in this Zone the uh there's a variance required because he we're proposing apartments on the ground floor there's also a variance for height a variance for floor area ratio a variance for landscaped area ratio and um as was noted the uh professional planner will provide a lot more detail with regard to all of those variances let me just let me interrupt you there for a second I I in I intended a line of questioning with regard to all of those variances as far as dimensions are concerned and the landscaped area ratio and the fact that we're actually reducing the impervious coverage uh but I'm going to I'm going to hold off on that so that Rakesh has an opportunity to Aline on that so I don't want you to think that we're glazing over in any way what the variances are but again because you don't have an engineer I don't want to go into the details because there's no one to rebut that but I just wanted to get the words on the record of what they are um and then you're you're about to talk about the building so why don't we introduce the exhibit and in Oldbridge we're going to mark that because it is rendered even though it's the the variant sketch that was provid it so I think we're I think we're right at A1 yes what would you what would you call that call that colored rendering okay and and it's dated I think 13024 okay thank you so we will Mark at a13 24 you mark it A1 lower Alli today's date is May 2nd we're finally getting into the nicer time of the year thank you Laura for letting me interrupt now go ahead so the proposal is a three-story apartment building in the open L shape that you see it is the uh light brown or I don't know orange color it's proposed to have a total of 68 apartments with a Lobby and exercise Center on the main floor there's parking for 128 Vehicles including six of those six are handicapped parking spaces and we provider for one EV space there's uh two on street parking spaces created on Higgins um as well as a fast delivery space for such something such as food um or others Amazon where they stop Park and then go into the building and deliver uh there's two points of Access One on Higgins Road and one on Route 516 uh Hein road is proposed to be removed from the site be a RightWay dedication there's a uh also proposed is a RightWay dedication along 516 to Middle SE County which uh the traffic engineer will discuss in more detail um there's a a sidewalk system along the street fronts uh in the rear and there's adequate parking and easily accessible system of 9x8 spaces with 24t wide aisles and that accepts the ada8 spes which have different sizes uh we have added site triangles to the site which will be discussed by the traffic engineer as well both entrances um and I believe that that's where I'm going to stop today because the next part is drainage then I just want to bounce back to um the improvements along Route 516 and we won't go into detail but um there are improvements that are part of your Town Center District um you you see them in front of the right across the street you know something similar uh to that and we've discussed that with Nicole who I know has a good handle on at Nicole Shapiro and I know she's working on things with grants and I know that um raes has uh that information as well but we're we're aware of those requirements we've accounted for the county right away um in the development of the site so it's we understand the importance of the Town Center District design standards and we're prepared for that right space for that that's correct it's and it's a little bit unusual which will'll be discussed further at the next Hearing in that with the right of way the ordinance requires the building line to be 13 ft off the curb line and that's really not possible with the rightaway dedication middle sex County requires but we are more than willing to work with the town should you approve this to come up with a site appropriate uh installation of the town ordinances for streetscape to make it a Town Center or town Village type area as envisioned by your ordinance I have a sense Mr chair that the question of sufficiency of parking we just ask people in the audience there will be a time to speak it's just not right now so please hold on to that those thoughts if you need to write them down I suggest you do I'm s interrupt no no I appreciate the uh control um there will certainly be a question uh that comes comes up with regard to the sufficiency of parking so I would just ask Laura Lon your opinion and reviewing the rsis standards there is Park the appropriate number of parking spaces on the site for the number of units yes we calculated the parking based upon the number of bedrooms proposed in each unit um and using the r rsis standards we came up with 200 I'm sorry 126 required and we're proposing 128 okay and the EV actually for some unknown reason counts as two spaces right now but we did not consider that yeah you get some credits for that so I have no further questions for laurelai we know the area in which we're hamstrung with regard to her testimony but she's available to the board and your Professionals for any questions that you might have thank you Mr Claus let me explain to the audience quickly uh how the procedure and the protocol works the when a person brings in an application whether it be a homeowner or whether this be a larger build uh there's certain professionals that testify each one of them are certified in some licensing that's necessary for them to go on the record and put this information on the record we have professionals here Mr Dari is not here tonight who was also a professional engineer just like this woman seated at the table when Mr clauser used the reference of pingpong he was saying that the professionals would probably go back and forth as to certain limitations or uh one might want more than the other that's the procedure and how it works what I'm going to do now is I'm going to go to uh uh Miss San who's the professional planner for the township to see if she has any Mr tetral is on the end he's a he's a professional traffic engineer so this is the procedure we we we that's the way we would do it the next witness there's only going to be two tonight I believe is the architect two more two more I'm sorry and each one will go through the same procedure after that would be the time that we go to the public so don't think that we're not going to follow the procedure that's what it is if you've ever watched one of the meetings uh we are citizens here just like you are so we have the same interest except obviously we have to make a decision based on our oath and by our training in Municipal Lusa so I didn't want you to think you out I don't want to leave you out in the cold I want to get you involved but I I can't have you interrupting during the testimony and there will be the time for you all to speak okay thank you very much Mr want do you have any uh comments or questions no not at this time okay uh board members I'm gon Mr tetw anything no not at this time okay I'm GNA start on my left any questions of Miss totton's testimony this evening she will be returning at another time to proceed uh with further U testimony I have questions but I'm not sure whether they can be addressed without you know professional basically she gave us a walk around on the property right I just want to know what she plans on what the proposal is for the garbage well all those things all those things would come right that's why yeah when we have that's why I said it's not goad answer that I had intended to and I apologize so there is a trash room that's located on the right uh leg of the building and it is uh that's where all the trash would go and it would be picked up by private carrier and the maintenance staff would bring it out trash truck would come and pick it up and take it away I I meant to say that I apologize thank you can I can I elaborate um have you been on 516 lately in that area tonight have you looked at the trash on the sides of 516 well let's be specific to this I am in this area if you I'm very familiar with this area I live not too far from it down 516 um quite a ways but the the trash is astronomical on the sides of 516 it's appalling are you are you familiar with that it people are they don't carry in carry out like you do with hiking for sure drop things out of their it's beyond that I mean they're throwing whole bags right of garbage trash they're D literally dumping whole bags of garbage on 516 I just want to know if you're aware of that or not I did not notice because the sun was in my eyes so I was trying to stay safe tonight I mean did you see the new control I'm sorry M I'm sorry if I could just clarify who's the they that are throwing garbage out on the roadway no I'm saying if you drive down 516 right now we could take a ride right there right now you'll see whole bags are we talking about this property right across the street across the street well you got we have to limit it to what goes on in this property that's what weal I'm saying in this area on 516 the garbage illegal dumping is out of control okay that might very well be but it just hasn't that really has no no bearing on this application well if you're putting 128 apartment buildings there Mr Victoria what I'm trying to say is limit them to what has been testified to all of this can come up later I know of 516 and I understand people throw garbage of the amount of illegal dumping that's going on in 516 I will look when I drive on 516 my question thank you I'll stand at that Mr Sing okay Mr Rizo no not at this yes M Sher you're providing 12 correct two on Ro they they do not count they do not count in correct we wanted to make sure we had a spot for an Amazon truck door Dash delivery something like that if they don't come on the site that was a third spot for the twoes cars and is that correct yes that is correct right but they're not part of our calculation but it's there so it should be on the record correct am I right Mr and right m t Okay counselor no I'm good thank you you Mr CL thank you laureli if I could I'd like to call up Mr ganet just to clarify two it's 128 parking spaces and 68 residential units so the purpose of having Mr ganet testify is to describe the uh nature of commercial and residential real estate in the general vicinity um so the board has a sense of uh the need for residential Apartments uh and the need for commercial in the area and so if I could let's start by having you sworn do you solemnly swear any testimony you provide before the board will be the truth and the whole truth yes thank you can you just state your name for the record please sorry Todd ganet last name is g n NE T thank you can have a [Music] seat good evening everybody good evening so Todd if we could let's start by by sharing with the board your expertise in this area why did we pick you to come and provide this testimony I have I started my own business uh and I was in business manufacturing business for 30 years during that 30 years I had invested in commercial real estate buying and selling real estate for my own purposes I during the 30 years I had been buying and selling commercial real estate while I had my business running the manufacturing company I sold my company in 2007 so thought I could retire after 6 months my wife told me to get out of the house she can't take it anymore so I went back into real estate the real estate I do is commercial strictly commercial I've been doing it for the last 17 years as part of my um business I'm obviously n a member of n National Association Realtors which most Realtors have to be I am a co-star which is these are all commercial sites now we're talking about commercial um organizations I'm a premium member of CoStar premium member of loopnet a prom member of kxy those are the three major organizations for commercial real estate on listing services advertising and marketing I am also a 15-year member of ccim that is the largest most respected commercial real estate organization in the country it is strictly for commercial people uh primarily Brokers and agents excuse me primarily Brokers and agents and uh professional people that service that industry those the only people that are members um through the years I have done a significant amount of business in commercial real estate I have um tenant representation landl representation I work with um development projects developers I have investment analysis uh background for people that want to decide on investment properties and then normal sales and and uh purchasing uh abilities thank you so it's the applicant's position ask a question yeah certainly so what are you testifying to I know you've been in a real estate business since 2007 you had previous experience during your uh tenure in businesses uh buying and selling commercial uh where do you live do you live in the area I live in Somerset County you you're you're familiar with all the counties in New Jersey yes I want you to hone in to why we should allow you to put all this on the record it's a fair question I do business all over the state I have a team of people that work with me we have properties that we represent and have sold or have hand I don't doubt that you're a good real estate agent what I'm saying is what makes you different than me having a real estate license I do everything I'm on hand with everything I'm up to date on all the knowledge I'm up to date on virtually everything involving the counties at towns that we work in when we represent a property in town the first thing we do is go to the zoning office to see what they' like to see in town then we try and Market the property to that effect but I am very familiar with just about every area of New Jersey as we represent properties and have bought and sold properties for our clients within those within most every County in New Jersey yes are you going to testify with certainty as to your as to your um knowledge of of what's needed in this area absolutely okay and you back that up with what I have um material that will support everything that we're talking about um on the testified before other boards yes I have many uh three boards yes and twice in twice in Greenbrook and once in Hillsboro you never testified before this board never before this board let me ask councel um is he an expert or is he merely a um opinion on uh this particular matter it appears that he has a basis of of specialized knowledge he certainly has some um credentials which he's placed onto the record um specifically related to commercial real estate it it sounds based on sounds like what you're based uh what you've asked him and based on his response that's the nature of what he is going to testify to he does have prior experience testifying before some boards um throughout the state so um if we know specifically what he's going to be testifying to have we place that onto the record which specifically is going to be testifying to it sounds like he's he certainly is a qualified I don't doubt that um you know witness just what what specific maybe maybe U Mr clauser can just tell us what specifically he brought the witness in to address and then we can certainly yeah I I I've asked Todd to analyze uh the commercial space that's available in the area the history of the commercial space in the area the absorption rates of those commercial spaces as well as the availability of residential uh uh rental uh units in the general area of the facility uh so that the board can have a sense of the fact that have a sense of the need for commercial in the area versus the need for residential in the area and he's conducted that analysis sounds fair thank you so you heard what I just said why I think you're testifying if you could just share with the board the analysis that you conducted of this area uh both from a commercial and and to a lesser extent a residential real estate um just uh to add one thing excuse me I am very familiar with residential real estate I don't do it on a regular basis I will do it to a family friends or clients but I am very familiar with everything that's going on in residential real estate um so when I speak to it a little bit later on I'm doing it with s with a certain with definite knowledge the analysis that we did uh for commercial uh opportunities here in this area and it was done with a three equivalent of a three- ring type uh assessment a half a mile radius around the everything was used that the property as a center of the point we did a half a mile analysis of Mile analysis and a two mile analysis within that analysis we had a uh formula through cim for business locate business located in the area businesses located in the area um we had the type of business the summaries of what they did we have a retail Market potential retail demand potential time series management for the population and households and an analysis of the retail square feet and the absorption rate of the square feet that that are available and that may be coming on the market we've summarized all that we have many of the um principal starts in in this brochure um there is about another 100 pages of backup for everything that we have here that will be available can be emailed out to everybody as when we're done the summary of what we have done is as follows the absor the vacancy rate right now and this is all this information is coming from the real estate Marketplace multiple listing services available properties that we see in the system that are on that are uh marketed there there are certain private transactions and private deals pocket deals for lack of a better way to put it that are out there those are not part of the public record so if my numbers are off slightly it's because of what I'm just explaining now but what I do have now is about 95% accurate the vacancy rate in this area right now using the uh ring rings that we talked about up to 2 miles vacancy rate slightly over 20% that vacancy rate will not include the new properties that are coming on the market they are uh they will add to the vacancy rate once they are completed as you know you have uh according to what we find three properties coming on the market now uh one is on the construction one is supposed to start in October and the third one um is in AO um planning stages the square footage of those three properties combined will add about another 880,000 ft of retail space the popul in this area um going back to 2010 to today's date and then what's projected out until 2028 there is less than a 1% increase in the population according to the S charts that we have now that obviously can change as anything else can but according to the information that's published right now they anticipate less than a 1% increase in population for the next five years or four years at this point the addition of more commercial space is going to add to the vacancy rate it will um not be a benefit to the town to have more vacant space out there obviously um the absorption rate and absorption just so every understands what I am explaining and if you don't please let me know the absorption rate is when you have a piece of property that's marketed whether it's residential whether it's land whether it's commercial whatever it is the absorption rate is the estimated time it takes for that property to go through a closing transaction how long is it going to sit on the market before somebody buys it or somebody does something with it the absorption rate right now in this area is anywhere from 10 to 15 months the absorption rate has increased 2% in the last year the vacancy rate is also increased 2% in the last year we have approximately right now 131,000 Square ft of existing vacant space out of a total available square footage of roughly 600,000 just over 600,000 square feet the available square foot square feet of the projects when they come online obviously will increase that that number and the vacancy rate will increase accordingly we currently have according to the records that are public 794 plus or minus businesses in town right now and that's within the 2 Mile search area that we established the half mile one mile and two mile that 794 businesses encompasses virtually every type of professional and service businesses you can have it includes gas stations it includes hair salons it includes supermarkets it includes every type of business you can possibly think of the list of those businesses is not in this for sure but it is I do have it as part of our exhibit to show that where the 794 are that list also tells you how far from this specific project those businesses are located and if we go through a summary of those businesses that are within a half a mile you probably have if I recall 130 or 140 businesses within the half mile radius different types of business business that are within that half mile radius the residential information which I'll get into now comes from the cjmls which is a central Jersey multiple listing service that's a residential site that uh is the largest site for this area of in this County in uh New Jersey and it's what virtually every residential real estate agent will use to look for available properties list properties for sale and uh mark them sold when they are sold or rented this particular analysis is strictly for rental apartments or rental properties right now according and this this information was taken as of today I'm sorry as of yesterday there are seven properties available for rent on the market and this this by the way is not the 2 mile radius this is all of Oldbridge the entire town there are seven properties on the market right now now of those seven properties most uh six of them are either houses or spaces within a house or a town home they are not an actual apartment in the last 12 months we've had 43 I think it's 63 hold on a second I apologize bear with me for a moment in the last 12 months we've had 43 properties rented those properties were mostly how again spaces within homes town homes or Condominiums very few of them were actual Apartments the apartments if they are available are priced cheaper than a house or a condo which certainly will make them more affordable with the need for housing and the lack of apartments in this area and the fact that there's only seven available right now it would to me seem more logical to add to the apartment count if it's possible as opposed to commercial the apartments will be occupied very quickly based on current statistics commercial will stay vacant for anywhere from 10 to 15 months before it'll be occupied and again everything is fluid it can change if a business comes in the area that nobody's ever heard of and it hits it'll work but the uh analysis shows that the spaces will take up to 15 months to occupy yeah it it may seem logical but the apartments would feed the existing and proposed commercial that's in the area uh here that is correct Mr chair the the purpose of having Mr Gana testify is to demonstrate the disparity between the availability of rental apartments in Oldbridge and the availability of commercial space in the general vicinity of this project um it's for the board to do what they wish with that information but I wanted to get it on the record I have no further questions for Mr Ganon he's available for any questions that the board may have thank you he was informative uh Mr one anything not for this okay Mr tet anything I I have nothing okay I'm going to go to the board members I'll start again on my left Mr Victoria uh Mr ganet thanks for your testimony um you stated that how many businesses did you estimate were 794 I believe it was you said 794 businesses in Oldbridge and how many within a two within a 2 mile radius how no you said uh businesses within a half mile 600 and something I think 130 no we we about 100 between 125 and 150 within a half mile 125 to 150 where do those numbers come from S3 what is it I'm sorry it's s S3 esri it's an analysis company that works with ccim okay they they they are also used in by other organizations but SRE is the primary source for that type of information for virtual any when that needs it okay thank you so basically your testimony is that you want to create Apartments to equal the commercial you know so there's well it's not necessarily to have Apartments equal commercial businesses uh because one one the occupants of one apartment can support multiple businesses the the the point of bringing this up is that with as many businesses we have here adding more businesses are just going to dilute what you have and one of the things that I mentioned which is not in this folder it's the backup that we have was the retail demand and Retail potential if you look at the amount of dollars which this that information shows if you look at the amount of dollars that are being spent either by category or in total by the populace population in the area in many cases the dollars they're spending is more than what the uh I'm sorry is less than what the businesses here can support so there are businesses that are not selling as much as they can because there's too many of those businesses uh the retail demand Outlook will give us a chart will give us the ability to see if uh the money being spent will support another business opening in the area because there's more money available that current businesses can't handle or there's not enough money being spent to support the current businesses that's where we come up that's where we look at how many businesses are here and what they do and in addition to that the distance they off from the existing property the the proposed property so are you of the opinion that there's not enough money being spent to support these businesses I'm of the opinion that in several categories there's not enough money being spent that is correct yes okay and then the uh the only other question I had was one second sorry it's okay you said that there was a need a need for housing um that's kind of a blanket statement overall where does that come from the apartments that come on the market even the ones that are in the houses or the condos for the most part are rented in less than two months when you have a property that comes available and you have an occupant that needs a place to live and they're taking it within two months and many cases under a month it shows that we don't have enough of a supply the ability to have uh nobody wants property to sit on the market for months on end but if you have people that are taking them as quickly as they come on the market it shows that we need more units in addition to that as I said typically an apartment will rent as a at a more affordable price than a house or a condominium will or space within a house um I'm sure there are people in this town that would rather have an apartment than live in a house and share it with somebody or spend an extra th000 or 2,000 a month for that property okay so um so you said there's 43 properties available in the last month in Oldbridge correct no no there are SE there are seven properties that are currently on the market 43 have been rented within the last 12 months okay and that's come straight out of the multiple listing services how long did it take for those properties to rent I think you you answered that that was your one to two month answer for yes most of them were one to two months that is correct okay there are some that were on the market for 6 months or or five months um they were more expensive Properties or less desirable properties but the average was less than two months okay all right no further questions if I could Mr chair just to clarify a little bit those are you excellent questions that the what I'm asking Mr ganet more to lean toward is to emphasize again that apartments are permitted on this property provided that they're supported by commercial below it sounds like the correct idea and in 2001 when the Town Center District ordinance was drafted I think that's the date um you know it makes sense you put commercial down below Apartments what I'm asking Mr ganet to attempt to demonstrate to the board is you have the commercial to support the appointment Department that's why we're asking not to have the commercial as part of the project um so that that's just sort of more the the the uh the explanation here that we're trying to provide thank you thank you Mr Singh Mr Rizo um you emphasized the affordable you use that word a lot affordable can you define affordable there there's obviously multiple definitions for it when I'm talk when I'm using the phrase affordable I'm looking what a uh a potential tenant is going to spend they have a choice of spending let's say $3,000 or $3500 a month for a house to rent or a condo to rent or they'll spend $2,000 or $2,100 or $1600 a month for an apartment the apartment becomes a more affordable number for many people that may not make as much money as other people I'm not referring to the affordable or the old old phrase of co- units I know there's 11 of them planned here um that is you know something that is certainly needed and certainly necessary but I was not using the affordable term for affordable apartments I was using it to because they become um easier for someone to pay for but easier for the uh for a tenant to pay for an apartment that is to pay for a house or a condominium so again if I could have an opportunity to clarify a lot of times when we have a use variance uh maybe for a Wawa or a gas station um we're often asked the question whether or not there's a need for that use do we need another one do we need another gas station do we need a we don't have that question in this instance because apartments are designated for this property so it's not necessarily that I'm asking Mr ganet or the applicant to demonstrate that we need Apartments here your governing body has already said that I'm asking him to demonstrate in the negative that we don't need more commercial here that's more the focus Mr Rizo Mr Sher can you restate that please I'm sorry what you say yeah I will because it's very important to understand because a lot of times a lot of the presentations that are made to this board are based although I don't believe it's necessarily grounded in in in the law um or based on the need to demonstrate um I'm going to use the word need too much that there's a need for that use that's not permitted in the zone that's what this board deals with a lot somebody's asking to do something in an area where they're not allowed to do it um and so you have to demonstrate that there's a need for that there's a market that that needs that use uh again I don't necessarily agree that that's actually the law but that is where we usually end up when we're discussing these issues um I don't need to demonstrate to this board that apartments are necessary in this Zone the governing body has already said that by adopting the tcd district the Town Center District so I don't have that burden here but I do have a burden I think of demonstrating to you that adding additional commercial is superflous in this area so I'm I'm I'm presenting Mr gan's testimony to demonstrate in the negative that we don't need more commercial in this area uh the question of whether there's it's appropriate for apartments or not is not before this board it's not before any of us it's already been determined by the governing body Michelle commissioner can I can I ask a question in regards to the statement you want to question the attorney a question in regards to his statement okay that's I don't know whether he's going to answer you but goe that's fine isn't it he can or he cannot um you say um you're not here to prove that apartments are necessary because that's already been established that's what you're saying correct that's correct are you saying that there apartments are necessary or apartments are allowed apartments are permitted a big difference between the two apartments are permitted in the zone so I don't have to prove to the bo NE they're permitted I'm not making an opinion one way or the other nor can I because I'm the attorney for the applicant whether they're necessary or not but you but I mean I think we both we both agree that apartments are permitted allowed right if you will but they're not deemed necessary I'm not sure I understand the permitted is allowed necessary is they're like essential like you have to have them there's a big difference right so I don't what I'm saying is the applicant doesn't have to ask this board's permission to have a departments in this area because they've already been permitted by the board by the necessary I don't think that's the case they're permitted but they're not necessary okay is that you certainly can have that opinion I'm not offering one one way or the other I'm not asking my opinion I'm asking asking I'm asking what your opinion it's the it's not the the attorney isn't for to be questioned I mean you want to correct something but no I appreciate the witness is well and I think he's answered you he's not going to offer whether he agrees with or not no I'm just saying permitted means something is allowed that's correct permissible that's different than say I'll agree with you on the def I don't see anywhere where you're getting it's the apartments are necessary okay that's all I want to say give me I was I just make comment I'm not saying that the apartments are necessary either I I'm trying to demonstrate that we have more than enough commercial right now and in using the analysis for the apartments and the housing it was a comparison of what we currently have available in apartments and um what the general area could support but whether apartments are there or not is a decision that is not going to be my decision obviously I'm just trying to explain that we have more than enough commercial right now we have over 20% vacancy rate we have another 80,000 or so feet coming on the market and it's you know we have more than enough businesses in the area right now we don't need to add more businesses to dilute what the current businesses are doing right now that's all I'm trying to say no thank you Mr G I I understand your testimony I just want to make sure there was a clear distinction between the words permitted versus necessary that's all I was trying to do certainly understand question you can explain to me how you came to a 2% increase for last year where's this year's increase with the you know population on SCH Meister increasing with the apartment buildings there the the records that we have available through SRI are not uh real time as far as up to the current day or the current week they go back to the prior year that's what I'm saying that's not real time that is correct up% isn't real either well as I stated in the initial uh opening the current numbers are based on the research that is done and the research is on an annual basis it's not updated on a daily basis unfortunately right but this town's changing at a rapid rate yes it is I agree so to me 2% doesn't mean anything thank you okay M Andrews uh yes I would like to know the apartments that you have said have gone within a month or two are those marketable market rate apartments or are those are primarily from the affordable rentals which those they all the market rate they were all market rate and there's not an a calling for the more affordable rate Apartments the research did not show it that in other words in the multiple listing system that does not show that shows they're not they're not counted in any of the information affordables are counted as far as sales uh either sales or leases that that is part of whatever is in a system but the units that have been sold are market rate units the the units that have been rented on market rate units okay are are you aware of all of the apartments that have been approved so far that have not been built or have been started as yet that wasn't I'm I'm sorry I didn't I didn't ask Mr ganet to conduct that analysis again we're I don't want to go down the path of demonstrating that we need more apartments in Oldbridge that question's already answered they haven't changed the ordinance for this Zone they're permitted here um the question is to describe that we don't need any more commercial because the ask for this board is to allow Apartments without commercial on the ground floor why because we don't need any more commercial the question is not whether we need apartments or not it's already permitted in the zone yeah okay that I understand also and and I mean this really with due respect do you do Investments uh or do you have investors taking a part in properties that come up are you also that service do you also do that yes I I do handle I do handle clients that look for investment properties that is correct okay thank you you're welcome this test verie counselor no I don't have that back to you Mr Claus thank you Mr chair um thank you very much Todd our last witness this evening is our archit technical gabri he's in Mike testa's office um so if I could I'd ask Nicole to come up thanks Todd so we don't well all right I'm sorry I have to get I have to get Nicole swor first I apologize gabard do you solemly swear any testimony you provide before the board will be the truth and the whole truth I do okay thank you just put your name on the record for us please you can have a seat you can have a seat thank you my name is Nicole gabard last name is g a b b a r d thank you so we don't have uh so that Nicole can freely go through her testimony um let let's just talk about quickly the oh no wait I'm sorry I'm sorry Mr chair um if you could share with the board your educational background your license and whether it's still in good standing yes so I have a bachelor of Art architecture from the New Jersey Institute of Technology from 2014 I am a li registered architect in the state of New Jersey as of 2023 in good standing and I am a lead project manager at the firm of Michael tester architect and I've been there for the past 10 years looks up your credentials thank you very much now um you have three boards I think that you are presenting um the two could you describe the boards I think two of them are just the plans that have already been submitted uh yes and actually there are four there's four sets of plans and then there's the colored rendering so just take the board through them so I think we have one to Mark I think the others will be what's in evidence already and then that way Nicole can kind of just flow through each of them sure so there's going to be the pb1 drawing which is the proposed basement plan and then we would have the pb2 which is the proposed first floor plan pb3 will be the proposed second third plan floor plan and the pb4 is going to be the proposed elevations and then the board that's lower down is the colored rendering of the building so let's mark the colored rendering A2 I don't think we need to Mark the other ones that have already been submitted that sounds good so we just Mark that A2 and today's date is May 2nd 2024 then just identify the exhibit as you go through it and I'm going to get out of your way and I'd like you to take the board through the building that you have designed sure I was just going to ask do we have a microphone that I could stand next to the boards we have a portable over there okay thank you okay so we are proposing for a three-story Residential Building it is 70 it's approximately 76,000 Square ft with an additional 3900 Square ft in the basement which is what you're currently looking at right now um there's really want to go to the next one so you can see the actual first floor plan okay looks like it's GNA fall there yeah right okay that's that's what I thought that's what Mike's here for yeah okay so looking at the first floor plan we have we're showing all the residential units along with a main lobby there is a fitness center and then there is a trash room located along the center Corridor for everybody to access we have a mix of one and two bedroom units we have 49 one-bedroom units and 19 two bedroom units within the floor plan go to the second I'm now going to the pb3 drawing which is the proposed second and third floor plans again all a mix of one and two bedroom units and again there's the trash room that everybody has access to off of the main Corridor um all of the units are fully handicap accessible I'm trying to see I think that and the building is fully [Music] sprinklered jeez thank you was the last one it was the building is Handy fully handicap accessible and sprinkled okay yeah so this is the pb4 sheet which is showing the building elevations which I'm going to actually just pull out the rendering in front of you guys you can actually see the colored materials so you guys can see that there are there is Brick horizontal siding on the building we have a whole bunch of Windows for everybody to be able to like a lot of natural light into the space yep and have a second one of those that could the audience could view oh can you put it up oh great thanks thanks so much subm just hold on one second okay that's fine there it is okay so as I was just mentioning so you guys can see that there is you know there's all upscale materials we have horizontal siding we have the brick materials and we have a lot of large windows for natural light that's really the basis of the building did do you pull the building up a little bit in the front could you talk a little bit about that raise it up add a little privacy to those first floor units oh yes so the first floor the first floor level we have doors entry doors straight off of the street both on Route 516 and on Higgins Road it's to afford some privacy for the tenants that are there so they're not directly at the ground level and it is also to give you guys that more of that town feel you kind of have them with their own entry doors in your downtown area I just needed Nicole to take you through the building and we St it earlier but I'm going to ask you to put it on the record of the 68 units 11 would be proposed to be affordable uh for the Township's use correct okay that is it Mr chair I have no further questions of Nicole she's available to your board for any questions that you may have it's one and two bedrooms 491 and 192 correct correct all right so it's a total of 68 units yes thank you uh I'll go to Mr w um actually I don't have any question I just have a comment um because I feel this is at a real infancy stage we haven't still gotten through the use variants approved but I would love to work with you especially because we have the Town Center it maintains a certain style uh it has certain materials that were used uh with the developer who is proposing development at the the corner of 516 and catrell road I made similar requests that they work with me to come up with elevations that I mean this looks beautiful but probably the place for this is somewhere in a more urban setup like matachin Harrison you know but because we have uh a style that we have been following in the Town Center um I would want you to at least pick up some elements from those I'm not saying you have to copy exactly the same thing but what I'm saying is pick up some architectural features that that make this project should it get approved uh a part of the Town Center you know so I would love to work with you uh should the board get uh should you get an approval from the board and that would be one of the conditions we have no with that that's all Mr Mr tetral anything uh I have nothing thank you I'm gonna start on my left from the board members Mr Victoria it's a um I agree it's a it's a beautiful rendition or or building um it it's going to be what's what's the distance from the like 2516 or to Higgins Road like from the front of the apartments I'd have to actually ask it seems like it's right on 56 right on Higgins hold on I'd have to ask my engineer she does the the dimensions if she could tell you what that is so I can get that I'll get that answer for you Laura's working on I could see right now but they're pretty much designed to be like right on the street correct right off the street I believe Laura she's going to be better at we have Laura Li back up again to answer of course she's still under oath the question okay so the from the center line of 516 it is 50 ft plus 13.4 feet because it's it's um I think the requirement is 13 ft off of the curve line but we couldn't do that because of the dedication that's along um 516 itself and I'm just not sure what the lane oh 13 ft so it's about 15 ft off the curb 50 feet off the curb line on 50 ft off the curine 50 feet right building yes the building is 50 feet off the curb line it sits back 50 foot yes okay it's 13 ft off the right of way line thank you that's a that's a center line or the curb line the half width of the road I think is 13 ft about let me get my scale you're so laureli I'm looking for the dimension from the building to the curb line I think that's the question yes okay 40 feet I apologize for before I can't subtract 40 feet but then you're set back from the right of way line 13t 15t 13t 13t and the right of way line is that invisible line that's on a map but what you see visually out there which I think is the question is its relationship to the curve line there's a 33 foot wide dedication to Middle sex County so for so 40 feet from the front of the apartment to the curb line yes and then 13 feet additional to the center line of the road oh wait a minute is that correct so it's 53 ft from the center of the RO Road it's 50 it's 63 ft from the center line of the road it is 40 ft from the curb line and the curb Line's 26 feet off the center line okay so then the road is 52 feet wide 26 halfway point plus 40 feet so it' be like 66 feet from the center line is that accurate yes it's 63 ft from the center line okay and then um this is a I'm just trying to get the vision overall um that's why I'm asking it's it's a 3.26 acre lot as previously stated it's a large lot like um what's the purpose with um putting it like right against the pretty much right against the street if you will why is it not set back a little bit more what is the uh front yard setback in the zone the requirement the requirement is 13 ft off the curb so because you're supposed to be close to the road to create the uh town center field can I can I respond please so um Mr Victoria when you design a downtown or a mix use kind of a building in a downtown you want the buildings to be as close as as possible so that it's more pedestrian friendly and you can see The Pedestrian activity you don't want them to be set back because that's then creates a dead space so you want buildings to be closer so uh I didn't write this ordinance but it is very typical of a Town Center or a downtown uh Redevelopment plan to have similar standards now u i mean over the last 24 years things have changed because this area originally was envisioned to be like a hustling bustling downtown um but obviously with 516 being a County Road um that really done did not come to fruition because of the high speed and because when it's down on you want parking on street parking you want to be able to enjoy outdoor dining it didn't really happen so it's something that will be addressed probably through master plan reexamination because I am working on the land use element of the master plan but that's coming up in future right now we have an application which they're trying to comply as much with the Town Center District standards that are in place what happens in future how the council changes it it's it's a completely different story the filed application is they're trying to match as much as possible to the Town Center District standards did I answer that right Peter yes the building is where it is because that's where the ordinance says it's supposed to be I'm I'm gonna leave that one alone um the but as you would St I I appreciate thank you for the knowledge because I'm a layman in comparison which I think you know but um you did state that it doesn't fit you know it doesn't seem to fit the area um I mean that's the use part of it uh and I'll I they have it's not fair to discuss it right now because we have to give uh their planner a fair chance to come and present to us and try to convince us uh for the Ed variants so I would hold off any questions uh related to the use or what I was trying to say is not that I don't want to comment it's premature for me to comment that it does not fit what I meant is things have changed there was a vision but because it's a County Road it's much easier when it's a Township roadway because then we can control whether we want on street parking we can limit the speed we can design it the way we want but now this is County asking uh I just had a meeting with the county two weeks ago on the project that is at the corner of 516 and catrell Road whatever is written in the Town Center District plan uh plan for roadways and for the street hierarchy or the design of it uh they don't really agree with it and they want to see changes so now we are working with the developer to change that streetcape um so pertaining to the use I would say please wait uh for the planner to testify I understand I'll I I'll I'll keep it to a minimum but I I just was I was just trying to understand the overall Vision because this is a large lot there's no pedestrian traffic at that area on 516 there's not even any sidewalks so I was just trying to understand what the I understand Vision was thank you Mr Sing Mr Rizzo not right now no Chevalier okay like when the waiter comes over and asks you how your is right did you take a bite Miss Andrews Miss test verie counselor no I'm good thank you so we're at the point where we've discussed the procedure from earlier um we're going to step down uh I imagine you're going to open it up to the public uh i' I'd like to you know step back up when we carry it just so that I'm here and we can discuss the date well you can leave your stuff if you'd like um unless you're just going to pack up and we just wait for the date well no I'm not pushing you off no no no I know but I'm going to just give the public their opportunity and and we'll sit and we'll listen and as I I've stated earlier and as as this board knows what I do I listen I take notes we'll prepare responses and when we return to the board we'll come up with some answers thank you Mr clus and thank you for your Witnesses testimony tonight thank you very much uh board uh what I'm going to do for you in the audience right now this application obviously is going to be continued because there's obviously more testimony uh there's not going to be any vote on anything tonight but what we I know you all have some comments and there's probably a lot of comments that wouldn't be applicable to what happened here tonight so when I open a public portion I'm going to ask each one of you who is ever going to come up we have a microphone standing there it may be a little bit too high we can adjust it accordingly I would ask you to step up to the microphone I'm going to ask you to uh state your name and be sworn in by the board attorney your comment or questions is really what it should be should be as to what was testified to tonight not what you think about the project not what you think is going to happen but what was testified to tonight so what I would ask you to focus on that and if the same question is asked by one person there's no need to to to ask it again okay uh we want to give you all a fair shot uh so we'll have an orderly uh uh you know procedure here so I'm going to call this as uh the public portion for 27- 2023 Z this is Vision allbridge LLC it's block 12261 lot 6 43963 County Road 516 I'm going to open the public portion at this particular time anyone that wants to be recognized just do so by raising your hand please or come forward sir you stood up first so I'm going to take you come on up once again I would ask you to state your name at which time the board attorney will swear you in okay my name is Benjamin Spinelli Jr can you spell your last name sir SP p i n l l i thank you I already have your hand up for me to the punch you solemnly swear any testimony you provide before the board will be the truth and the whole truth yes I will thank you sir you have questions for the board uh yeah the first question I actually have is in regards of the height now they're asking for a three-story building where there is no other three-story building in this area period including the building that we are standing in right now so why would there be a precedence now to go to a three-story building uh to be allowed here when it hasn't been done in the past so that's number question number one would that come from the planner Miss Swant do I really respond with the no not you I'm saying that question would really be for their yeah I I think I think you should stick to asking questions pertaining to these three professionals only problem okay no problem I'm sorry about that all right um the other question I had uh the right away now I live directly across the street from this property and my RightWay setback is 55 ft that's what I had to dedicate to the town when I went for my variants so it was 55 ft from Center Line of the road that was dedicated to the county of middle sex and the question is and the question is what why do they saying it's only 53 feet can the can the can the professional engineer answer that I don't think we are getting into those details right now I would hold off because because I know um that Nicole and Rakesh have been discussing I would I would hold off from for our for our engineer to be yes yes they put they did put some engineering testimony on tonight you sound like you're way off Bas but they um they haven't gotten into that meat and potatoes because they have we don't have our engineer here tonight so all we kind of got was an overview so I would say if it looks like you have a notebook there I would hang on to that one for when they're when they engineer my last question is regarding before you proceed before you proceed I'm so sorry to interject but I think this might be helpful to all the residents um typically when an application comes in front of the planning board zoning board it has the use as well as the site plan so there's much more heavy engineering testimony there is a heavy engineering review however when you're asking for a use variance in front of the zoning board the developer has the option to choose whether they should go in for the use variants and site plan or just go ahead with the use variance get the use approved if the use gets approved then they come back to the board for engineering comments in this and those type of applications are called bated applications this one is a bated application what they are what they're presenting here strictly pertains to the use of it because they have a heavy lift they're uh trying to defend a use variance they have to make their case should they get an approval for the use variant they will come back with their engineer plans there will be a thorough review on our professional side there will be a review letter uh which covers storm water grade grading drainage everything you know the right right of way dedications so I want the residents to be aware that this is not the only chance there will be more sight specific uh questions that we will ask you will have an opportunity to ask okay does help yes yeah no I understand I understand why they they they separate the two because if the site or if the use Varian isn't granded why would you spend all the money rating or the site plan I understand that okay and my last question is um regarding the distance from the road the building I can understand if there was retail yes you want to close to the road you're going to stop you're going to go shopping and you wanted it close to the road but now this is going to be 100% residential do you really want housing right up against 516 with all the traffic noise and you're going to be trying to sleep with that believe me I've been sleeping there for 58 years on 516 and I can tell you about traffic noise it is 247 so that's something maybe you guys should consider also by allowing this so close to the road okay thank you thank you they did so because of the restrictions though you understand that right no I understand that but but again that the restrictions is in place for retail that's the reason why sorry about the restrictions are in place because of the retail aspect of the Town Center design I understand you were trying to create a Main Street which that's what we were all promised all those years ago which we still haven't gotten but at the same time now that you want to change it which is fine you want to change it and put Apartments go right ahead but do you really want to put apartments right on the highway that's my question okay thank you uh who wants to be next my name is pH I'm sorry your name please Philip mcgoverin I'm in the resident of Society Hill word attorney will swear you in do you Solly swear any testimony you provide before the board will be the truth and the whole truth I will okay put your hand down thank you okay go ahead sir it was stated tonight that there's too much commercial space in the area now it seems to me that the restaurants in town center are doing very well a few days during the week it's hard to find the parking spot before too long the catrell farm is going to open up why not then have restaurants across the street from the catrell farm near the Town Center on the ground floor that's my question thank you thank you sir ground floor restaurants right come on up Sir on the on the aisle hello my name is Michael Anderson I'm from Society Hill um first question I'm just looking for clarification sir hold on how do you spell your last name sir Anderson a n d e r s o n okay per perfect just uh raise your right hand please do you Solly swear any testimony you provide before the Border will be the truth and the whole truth yes I do okay thanks go right ahead uh can I get more clarification on the garbage where that's going to be placed he said on the right side depending upon which way you look at it which is the right side is it the side closer to 516 or is it the side closer to Higgin road because it depends if you're looking at it straight or back right can be two different ways internal I believe so can we return back to the document and take a look this is something that would be better addressed at site I know um the engineer did provide an overview to kind of give uh folks an idea of where it's at but that's like the the planner explained before this is this application is strictly for the use part of it so if they do get approval for this from the board they have to come back with all those details and that's where really the nitty-gritty kind of gets worked at as to where they put these things specifically on the property they have to you know go through an extensive review with the planner at that point in time and then it also gets presented to the bo and there's also a public public question and comment for that but it's we're kind of putting the cart before the horse and the folks that that would be answering that question would just be guessing at this point because we're not even at now have they um another question was they talked about um the rent have they said what the rental average would be for these properties because they keep talk about affordable what exactly like that on the record okay no one said that on the record yet is that an important part to see what those apartments are going to be going for wouldn't that be something that we should know like are these going to be $3,000 Apartments may find out in in an uh Community impact statement okay um also there is a complex of a little further down the road on 516 like you're going down towards the high school that has um commercial on the ground floor do we know anything about the leasing opportunities in that building are they all fully leased because if they have vacancies in there so then the question would be well why do we need more if there's vacancies right down the block then doesn't that cuz he mentioned that there was seven available but he didn't say where they're available and the other thing he had mentioned when he was talking about the difference between apartments and houses people would rather do Apartments more housing because he said people wouldn't want to pay $3500 I don't know many houses in Oldbridge that are one and two bedrooms which is where these complex will be that are going for $3,500 like yes you talk about a house that has four or five bedrooms probably leasing for $3,500 but I don't know any one or two bedrooms that are going for $3,500 so that's why I think it's important to find out what are they looking for as far as a price to rent out these especially when it comes to low income because low income can mean a lot of different things like like you ask like what exactly does that mean and I think that's an important thing to find out especially with everything going on in the country right now people here have low income there are certain connotations that come with that so I think that's something that definitely needs to be addressed okay normally they go by market rate okay well we don't know what market like he's an expert that's what I say they normally go with the market rate that's prevalent at the time okay that may come in a community impact statement okay thank you you're welcome thank you who's next uh gentleman in the back hi alen Steiner right Allen Steiner how do you spell your last name sir s t i n e r thank you you s swear any testimony you provide before the board will be the truth and the whole truth yes okay go right ahead sir I'm the former owner of madaan world of gardening and I took ownership in 2001 there and yes Town Center was one of the big things that everyone talked about uh back in the day and it didn't quite come to be but as far as retail I think we have more vacant stores than we need and quite honestly I sold my property because of declining retail and my garden center was well 3.2 acres and the question is do we really need more commercial real estate or stores the little the little stores in Browntown or our half a bacon and that certainly doesn't add to the look of our great town town and I was a player in this town for for 21 and A2 years and I recognize all your faces you know um but I'm retired now and I just thought my two cents would be good in here just to say we don't need more retail I had enough trouble keeping that place above water it looked great but it was quite a bit of debt thanks to our world of Amazon and the websites and all the things online so it probably would be a great thing for overage thank you thank you lady in the back name ma'am Carmela Spinelli I'm the other half that lives across the street um two things really oh you solemnly swear any testimony you provide before the board will be the truth and the whole truth yes thank you go right ahead um one thing I just want to make as a comment um you stated there was a lot of garbage directly across the street that's my house and I can attest to you we don't have garbage on our lawn we pick it up regularly there was a lot of garbage dumped but trust me on our property we're not going to have a debate from I just wanted I'm just setting the record straight that the garbage is not coming from our house you said it was across the street I said on 516 in that area not not on your property specific well it was across the street so I guess my question is I'm not so much against Apartments okay I want to know where did the third floor come from because as my husband stated being bam right on that corner I'm not an expert in traffic I'm not an expert planner I'm not an expert in engineer but I've lived there since 1987 and I am an expert of that corner for for even when the garden center was there it was seasonal I know that corner so I'm just wondering why if they went for variances as part of this application for height and ratios and land use and all this they didn't ask for a variance to push it back off the road yes they are com you know comp you know complying with what's there but there's a lot of things they're not complying with and they didn't have an issue asking for those variances so my question question is why not push it back and where did this third floor come from because they're asking to put apartments on the bottom floor which you know empty stores Apartments yes I'd rather see Apartments personally I'd rather see ownership something that people actually go in and own so they're long become longtime residents of Oldbridge but why not push it back and go for that right away because that corner people that live there I'm not an expert but I consider myself an expert of that corner unao pointed expert that's all thank you thank you for your comments see any more lady right over here my name is Kathy fernbach F Ur n b a c h to it you solemnly swear any testimony you provide before the board will be the truth and the whole truth yes okay go right ahead Kathy I'm a resident of Oldbridge on 516 for 25 years I didn't hear a discussion about traffic impact that's actually a beautiful building but it's awfully large for 3 acres and 128 parking TW parking spaces not for that many apartments we do need a apartments in Oldbridge no doubt I just don't know if that's the right area that's all thank you the answer they didn't present a traffic expert yet but they probably will anybody else gentleman in the red that would be yeah okay good evening everyone my name is Richard last name is pelli PCC i a r l l i I'm a resident at Oldbridge 31 years and I'm also the president of the Madison Oldbridge Township historical society as well as the chairperson of the Oldbridge historic commission uh I'm going yes the right hand yes wrong hand you tell me swear any testimony you provide before the board will be the truth and the whole truth yes thank you thank you sorry about that that's okay no problem okay uh I'm going to have to limit my remarks because the professionals that I need to talk to are not here as as instructed by the chairman I have to limit my remarks so I'm just going to say that uh we are involved and engaged and I want to know from the chair I just a question for the chairman uh is the is the Zoning Board in receipt of the letter that the historic commission sent it is sir yes and is the Zoning Board in receipt of the letter from Mr William Quinn of Hoboken New Jersey in opposition to this application no I have if it's if it's somebody who's in is is in opposition they actually need to come here they're board's not allowed to receive um okay you know like materials from an objector um if the if if anybody formally objects to it they would actually have to do exactly what the applicant would do the applicant goes first okay all I gave a copy to Mr clauser Mr clauser has a receed of the letter okay okay and um that's it since I can't talk about the uh we haven't had the discussion uh with the experts I'm going to Reser serve Judgment at this time thank you thank you Mr you a question could we know what's in that letter and when will we know wait you'll get a chance to come up okay but I'm asking you can't you can't speak you can't speak you can speak to him if you'd like you can go back in there and talk to him that's I'll right could I just name Carana oh go ahead real quick about the letter from the fella in Hoboken I want to acknowledge that I did receive a copy of it maybe I misunderstood I thought it was something that was sent to the board already and I was just getting a copy so I did not pass it along but I would agree with your analysis I would object to it I don't have it I don't think we should have it okay yeah actually not what he said is true he did give me a copy but I thought it was my courtesy copy of something that was already sent to the board I believe I had checked uh with uh Chris and we decided not to circulate it yeah if it's from an objector that we're not allowed to it's not a submission to the board it doesn't go to board memb correct and that's why it was not yeah agreed now ma'am go ahead thanks sorry good evening everyone shenan kowana c a r u a n a thank you swear you solemly swear any testimony you provide before the board will be the truth and the whole truth I do okay thank you yeah goad man so I mean this is a very emotional situation that probably a lot of you are not aware of and that probably none of you especially the people here proposing this development don't even care about so I know chairman you asked for questions but before we get to questions I think you really have to understand the heart and soul of what you are doing I mean how can you even imagine what you are proposing yes maybe 21 years ago when you decided that this was going to be a lovely little town center on a county road that has always been a County Road and that has always served as a road that goes from one part of the town from one part of the state of New Jersey to another from one County of the state of New Jersey to another how would you even imagine that all of a sudden you were going to carve out a town center in that area now there might have been other areas of old bridge that you could have imagined doing that in but on 516 have you been we asked the engineer earlier if she had SE if she had seen the garbage on 516 and she wasn't aware of the garbage because the sun blocked her vision was what she said well then I will ask all of these Representatives here tonight do any of them live in brid we have to you you couldn't be on a board if you didn't live in the community no you live in orbridge but any of these people who are going to build this building do they live in orbridge the the applicants have a right to bring matters the board the board has the right to allow or deny yes I understand we didn't ask them to come in here and bring this but that's part of our job to listen to Applications yes each and every one of the members are volunteer members no one up here is paid I understand all of that I'm not criticizing you the board I'm asking the the people who are proposing this building oh yes real estate people can go anywhere they want and decide to build whatever they want but then it is the responsibility of people who are volunteers on the board and yes I'm looking at you how long have you lived here who are you talking to yes I don't remember your name but how long have you lived in this professional planner for the town yeah how long has she lived here where she lives is has nothing to do with it well yes it does it does not it does have something to do with it it it it doesn't have anything to do with it maybe um physically and and and MoneyWise and and and Grand Vision but do you know how long my family has been here I'm it doesn't matter right and do you even know which house I live in you didn't give me the address so no I wouldn't know I live on 124 Higgins Road and you know which house that is that is the original farmhous the name of the road is the house of the family that had the farm there it is the Higgins house and that's where I have lived and my father and mother had lived since 1970 okay so I have seen what Oldbridge has become come okay and the idea like I said even 21 years ago I don't know I was probably outside the country but to even think that you were going to make a Town Center on a County Road whoever did that you probably did not because you were not on the board at that time it's by done by the council there has no jurisdiction over that Town Council absolutely ludicrous ludicrous and like everybody else has said there are some very distinct questions my other neighbor who unfortunately would be right in front of this development on Higgins Road what kind of traffic is going to be and how are you going to control the traffic that is already on Higgins Road and now on 516 with at least four people in each one of those apartments two to four people in each one of those Apartments I mean have you considered any of these things are you considering any of these things when you're talking about it and then like our we haven't even heard the entire application ma'am oh yeah right so we're just going to and and right so we waited how long to get to this application right how many times was it postponed right three times right before we even got to this meeting what are you inferring by that well because yes I have no idea why it was postponed but it just seems part of the whole plan maybe we'll forget about it maybe one day we'll wake up I take a front to that ma'am by the way each and I told you to this I told you that each and every member here is a volunteer I take a front that you make an accusation like that well I mean I don't control the scheduling of these matters it's controlled by the township more often than not the uh professionals are not available on a certain night all these people have other these men and women professionals go to many different places not just here so they all have to get together on the same night and we only have two meetings per month so they got to fit all that in and coordinate that please don't make don't make accusations that you can't back up please oh well I can back up the fact that this was that I had something to do with oh no I didn't say you had anything to do with well I'm not going to debate you what is your final comment and my final comment is just please please I mean um one the height definitely two if this is going to go through as the solicitor has said many times because of the grand Town Hall uh Town Center decision and so we can't even discuss the fact that we should even be building apartments please consider the height please consider the road distance please consider um traffic lights now because already trying to get out of Higgins Road at this point without this new development is very very difficult so all of these are valid questions and I did have one last question um when is the next meeting but we don't know because you don't know it's going to be announced okay yes it'll be announced before you leave thank you okay Mr chair could I just about the adjournment and and beinga help me out because we adjourn you know we've had to adjourn a number of different applications your board's a very busy board I think you all know that this application was scheduled for I believe February 2nd um we received the professional Port um from the Township's professionals on January 31st that's not a comment on them having it delivered late they're busy so when we got it on the 31st there was a lot of meet in it and so we asked that the application be adjourned so that we could address the questions and be properly prepared the next available date from February was May um I think you you've heard me ask for dates as soon as I can get them the Ford application you know so just to get it out there it was adjourned once unless I'm wrong about this one but it was adjourned once and it was because we got the reports two days before the hearing and we wanted to properly address them uh and the next available date from February was May it's tonight where we are that's all that is thank you Mr claer any further comments from the audience come on up ma'am it's okay oh there you could hold it yeah that's even better that's better better yet your name Patricia shook Patricia how do you spell your last name s c h u c k thank you so much do you solemnly swear any testimony you'll provide before the board will be the truth and the whole truth I do thank you go ahead man I'm probably not giving you any facts I'm giving you emotions I've lived in my old farmhouse on Higgins Road since 1959 my house was built in 1848 this is heartbreaking to me and I feel emotionally bad for the people who are coming there to live it it might be their dream but it could become a nightmare for them living on fire 56 like that having children the road the way the people come down Higgins Road has anybody come from TI toown road down the curves so this is I have no facts for you except what I stated but it is a very emotional thing that I carry in my heart and I hate to see happen thank you very much thank you ma'am slide that yeah just slide that back would you would you give her a hand I got it I think it's gonna fall that thank you thank you Mr GL anybody else go ahead ma' on your name ma'am my name is cherol civilia s i b i l i a thank you do you s swear any testimony you provide before the board will be the truth and the whole truth yes I do thank you go right ahead I moved here 14 years ago my house is third house on the left of Higgins Road I look out my back door and I see Christmas trees I hear Christmas music which I don't anymore because M mwan Garden has left I can't imagine walking out my backyard and seeing a three-story apartment building I can't imagine the traffic what we already face I can't tell you how many dead animals we have picked up off the road on Higgins and on 516 my husband and I are very devout in Animal Care I'd say between 12:00 at night and 2:30 in the morning because I am up at those hours the speeding that goes on on Higgins Road is unbelievable if you just spent one evening sitting in my living room you would be astonished at what goes on down that road I can't foresee more cars more traffic people coming and going into their Apartments if there is a third story apartment building there it just does doesn't make any sense to me and I hope you take all that into consideration and thank you for your time thank you for your time and for being here tonight and and your comments anybody else I'm going to close the public portion at this time we're going to have to set a date for the continuation of this matter Mr belli uh September 5th counselor September yes no is it um may I ask a question SE will we get a notice like we have in the past September there's not going to be no mailing at a mailer no okay because there was in the I'm gonna give you I'll give everybody some advice as soon as we complete this thank you I'm just waiting for the professionals to come to terms with the date I don't know when when is Labor Day this year second second second yeah it's I believe it's the weekend wednes okay it would be the first week of the the first Thursday of uh yeah of September 5th okay Labor Day is second this year Labor Day is early yes it is happens that way yeah I mean you know just so the I'm I'm not I I completely understand but I'd like the public to know I'm not happy with the date I wish it was next month too but that's just the way that it is that's what your schedule is like and I understand it um so you know I that's fine I would ask that it be carried without further notice or publication yeah uh just a comment Mr clauser the the members of the board would also like these to be uh much tighter and have some more continuity in them uh but unfortunately when we meet twice a month and we have longer applications and we only have so many hours to do them I get just in the I'm empathetic to your position I know you're empathetic to ours yes and just based on a comment that was made earlier about the delay from from the original one I you know there's another delay but we can see why there is you know it's not intentional this matter uh 27- 223 Z Vision Albridge uh LLC is going to be continued September 5th there'll be no further notice as far as the 200 foot Zone however I suggest all of you go to the township website look up Township of Oldbridge Zoning Board of adjustment uh as soon as it opens up it lists the members and it lists the dates and it lists the agenda for any for every single meeting that we have you can check self check this I can assure you that through the the technology over the years no one is cheating on anything and we again we would prefer to have these all at once if we could handle the whole thing in one night they're too big as they mentioned before these are heavy lifts as they say so uh this board will be here to hear that we hope you come back also and when I have to limit that when I have to limit the questioning it's because we have an attorney sitting here and the attorney is to keep us focused and within the law because there's an attorney sitting over there so they play pingpong but he really advises us so I have to follow because the testimony wasn't made by a planner they haven't finished it because the testimony has hasn't been done by a traffic engineer they have to finish that so all those other questions will come in as this Pro uh progresses and comes to completion and of course they going to be uh at each and every hearing another open uh uh public uh comment and questions all right so please don't be dismayed by this this is just the way that procedurally things have to happen again I know you're only interested in your uh your properties your area everybody on this board has the same concerns so give us some time uh give us some Faith let's hear the rest of the application and then we'll see how the board reacts okay let's not jump to any conclusions we don't jump to conclusions I would ask the other residents please don't jump to conclusions either having said that Mr clauser any final comments no just thank you and thank I want to thank everyone for their participation it's very helpful right as well as the public I'm sure yes everyone okay all right once again that matter September 5th thank you no F no further notice all right board members we have nothing else on the agenda uh this evening uh that finishes that hold up minute here yeah no oh okay then you're fine what you showed tonight I have yeah that's fine you're good okay thank you all right absent any other uh business to be brought in front of the board I'm going to call for an adjournment call for an adjournment is there a motion motion all in favor I I I all right board stands adjourned e e e