##VIDEO ID:KJYEC5x85f4## um Wednesday July 10th 2024 test equipment in compliance with the open public start again take two in compliance with the open public meetings law notification of this meeting has been sent to our official newspapers and other Publications circulated in the bur of bapan and notices has been posted on the bulletin board at Burrow Hall please note fire exits located at the main entrance to the council chambers and in the rear of the council chambers let's stand and salute the flag I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible liy and justice for all I'll do a roll call present Mr Mr Mr here Mr J here councilwoman here wow that Mr Ellen M ludus Mr SCA here Mr Vian Mr zaran Mr pman definitely have a small group today um before we get started Bob do you want to give an announcement about yes there's one item on the agenda the application of sser n Parker Place par five Parker Place block 1302 block 5.01 we have a communication from the applicant attorney that uh they were requesting that the application be carried to the September 11th meeting and they're requesting that we announce the new date and no further public notice will be required will be provided so again this application by Parker Place is carried to September 11th without any further not if anybody's here for that you can leave I Parker placee all right we're going to open up the uh meeting for the public to speak on non-agenda items anybody make a motion motion second all in favor I okay does anybody have anything they want to discuss that's not on the agenda come up and I think you have to announce give you name address and serial number and all that sure uh my name is John pilaka seven client Court um I'm doing my best to interpret your rules I'm sure you'll tell me if this so are we not a non-agenda item okay uh it it tangentially is in regarding the fence issue down on Greenwood but my com this particular comment is more about this process and how you may or may not be getting public feedback on the issue that consider an on- agenda item I think it's very close to an agenda item it's very close to the topic is it talking you're talking about a generality about how we go about the process let's hear what he has to say and then back in February I'm going to estimate there were probably about 10 members of of the community okay that I'm going to assume most wanted to speak again against approving the variance okay um I get a technical issue happened with the recording and so forth um and I predicted um not as you you'll not hear from as many members of the public tonight as you would have back then I guess I just I mean I I was on a board I understand you can't do things just like oh well that makes sense let's just do it you know and really uh outside of the you know the issue of a a pending issue and so forth you got to follow the rules closely then right because then you can create problems for everyone sure I would just encourage you to kind of look at what happened there there were probably 35 modern recording devices in the room I would imagine the lawyer of the applicant the applicants might have stipulated that you know what if we get good clear recordings from seven different uh board members phones we can accept that and and you are getting closer to what the application is I I appreciate process process is there a way that you can work with the board attorney right to say if something like that were to happen again a technical issue no one you know no one's pointing fingers blaming but could we come up with a workaround maybe if an applicant would say you know what that works for me we're all here yeah that was my one big comment on that process so and then I've got one more comment well really it's a question um the fence issue on Phyllis I read the uh meeting notes from the April uh meeting and it seemed like it was approved I don't remember who was the applicant kodash I don't remember the name sounds right yeah uh it was also a fence issue I I think you they're all very different I understand that but my my question is um I do have a comment on that but I see it's on the agenda tonight not on the agenda that application is concluded if it's going and if it was approved the resolution was passed as well so there's an ordinance that is being proposed okay so I misread then it's not on the agenda so let me just uh I guess it's a non-agenda item so I will give you my related comments for whatever there were sure um there were a couple assertions in that um application about security and I I mean and near as I could figure from the notes assuming that those notes are are uh accurate and complete no one asked what are what are the security issue and how is a six- foot fence going to solve that issue rather than a 3-foot fence the only support to that claim was oh high school kids walk by our our property given that let me finish and then I'll go and you guys can all tell me you know if I'm you know if you have any comments or whatever but given that everyone in that neighborhood should be able to break the fence the fence ordinance and if you looked at that property I drove by it today I I for the life of me I don't know what a three-foot fence would not have done that a six- foot fence you know I don't see any extra security or anything those those trees are beautiful they're you you can't see through a thing so anyway that was my comment if I were here that I respond did you mind if I respond to you I certainly would love any board members who are here that night to respond as well pisty should stick around if you can I mean I know you've got got life and and and and you have other things you want to do but you should stick around tonight and listen we have two fantas applications going on tonight which is unusual we usually have like one a year and we've got we had one a couple of months ago we have two now um you should stick and see how that processes we don't base our decision on one simple assertion right the the security comment which I vaguely remember was one of many things that were discussed over the course of probably an hour hour and a half um and and so you should you should consider that also if that is important to you you should come to the meetings and you should voice your opinion when when those applications are are coming forward I mean it's opportunity for the public to comment on applications if they're offended by it um we're not using any one application as a means to approve another application either so again that's probably not the answer you wanted to hear no for this I didn't have any I'm not looking for any answers I just wanted to give feedback I appreciate it um and again you know you you open the door for me to say there were 10 members of the public here to talk to you in February you know sorry I just had to slip that but we but we followed State protocol I know you know you're you're a board member right you understand we followed State protocol the every was announced everybody had an opportunity to come to the followup heing and they didn't that's why if it was important to them they should have come tonight you don't see that for that other appliation because I can't agree with you there you you know why do you have it then what if if you if you knew it was important to 10 members of the public why in the heck excuse me why in the heck did you schedule it in the middle of July when everyone's on vacation and you could probably guess that the members of the public we're not going to be available here it's not up to us to schedule it well thank business does not stop in the summer months okay that's you that's that's your answer we're all here I I mean we all have other things that we could be doing but we're here let me tell you I was on a board that got a lot of members of the public there you don't necessarily want that either trust me we've been through that under the municipal l Mr chairman the board is required to meet every month as there's an application right you're you're and we have time limits as to when you're switching now to the July statement which is tonight's application so whether there's one person from the public here or 10 we're still going to hear the application and make a decision based on what we have in front of us so the fact that they're not here doesn't mean that the application moves forward we'll still be talk talking about it tonight understand and and the applicant has the fair right to continue the process and not wait for everybody to be back from vacation I understand that the public has a fair right to have their opportunity to speak as well but that's why we I really want right now I have my opinions on off fence I will talk about that later when it's the agenda item right now it really is to say this situation came up and it would be great if just in the course of doing what you guys do over the course of the year you could discuss it and say could we have handled it differently is there a different way to have handled that because you do want to hear from the public and when we have the public here is there a way that we can make exceptions I mean I don't know you know this is where I my I'm way out of my depth I'm you know and I'll stop there I wanted you guys to hear from someone in the public that it was I think a missed opportunity to hear from approximately 10 members of the public on an issue so hopefully there'll be other members of the public who are neighbors to that application here tonight besides yourself who can weigh in on it we listen to the applic we listen to the neighbors all the time it's important for us it's important to the process it is but we can't control some of the requirements of the state law we we meet we we scheduled the meeting it's in July nobody wants to be here in July but we're here you can petition the state to try to amend I'm not going to do I'm not going to do that I'm not going to do that I think we need I think we need to move on okay okay we need to move on thank you for for your Insight all righty any other persons want to speak about a non-agenda item come on up uh Kathy fan Kathy Ferdinand 15 Autumn Lane thank youan um this is a fencing issue also but one non agenda okay non agenda and it concerns the Ida tow houses on Central Avenue that were approved whatever 6 months eight months ago they've moved in the town houses are actively being rented there's about I don't know four or five that are rented now when that property was discussed for probably 2 years with many of us approaching the planning board every month uh they were discussing putting up a burm of tre and they also promised a fence around the back of the property which is my whole backyard um there is no fence there there are some little spotty patches of fences on the sides but there is no fence in the back we have uh landscapers that come and blow their their debris from the tow houses onto us we have people walking dogs we had somebody walk through their yard to our yard yard um and a fence was promised back there and I just remember in the minutes it was discussed whether it was going to be a four or a six or what height the fence was going to be but there is no fence and I just wanted to bring so that we have a lot of control over right we can pull up the resolution and the plans and the plans to determine if in fact we did make that a requirement of the approval and if we did we can go back to the applicant and they have to comply and they have to comply they're required by law to do that so I don't know what the process Department okay Building Commissioner whatever his title is to say I had this question and he never got back to me so I thought he might review the plans the young lady that over there will reach out to the billing department great on on your behalf and we will and we'll look into it for you excellent okay thank you so much when we when we do that I think one of the other conditions was they had to put a bunch of screening in too yes it was quite a bit they their landscape architect back I'm glad you brought that our attention that's what we need theing AG also requirement okay all righty thanks mman anybody else have anything that's a non-agenda item most non-agenda I don't do that all right motion to close motion to close second all in favor I all right next item on the agenda environmental commission report look that way make a motion we pass it up the next month okay Council Le aison report I'm going to take that for bill this month sure thank you very much um a couple just quick notes things going on in town uh tonight is the first of the summer concerts at Oaks Park um that's each Wednesday in July so the next four including tonight tonight's a Billy Joel cover band so that's tonight if you get out of here and you want to head over um tell we say hi maybe open a window we could hear think they'll start around 10:30 today well that brings me a next Point our first movie night is Friday at uh Stone Point that's at 9:00 P p.m and that's due to Sunset so I know people were say oh it's late but the movie is sing too and that's Friday night at Stone Point Town day save the date September 7th ult pan birthday party Sunday October 20th Firehouse happy to report 125 years or what is it we up to now now 130 30 something there 1894 think yes 130 wow um and on that topic we uh as part of the historical committee I'm I've been tasked with collecting items for the town's Time Capsule so if anyone in the public uh or this board wants to contribute any artifacts or pictures I will be the one collecting and organizing that so you could either drop it off of the burough hall or email me with that um when's the deadline for that uh August 13th is our next meeting when I'll be putting everything together so Poss we're putting something in the newsletter about that too okay because that would be fun for people to do and it and it doesn't have to be just pictures art any artifact we could put in the book um and then just to move things along Camp Serendipity is running really well they're having First Responders day on Friday so um that was a big hit last year for the campers with uh the fire department Police Department EMS and DPW come in and they the kids love it they play games with them and they you know bring the fire hose for them they've been running the sprinklers don't worry in the heat so a commendation to our they keep doing it for the next two weeks yes our rec director is doing a great job so thank you to Gloria for that um couple just other quick notes um see uh mayor and Council will meet uh this upcoming Monday July 15th and then again August 19th um the touch of truck event was a big hit so thank you to our First Responders and all the volunteers for that uh the Board of Health reminds us that it is tick season so cut your grass um OT was named a healthy town to watch for which was excellent uh thank you to them for their work um and last few points ult pan received a sizable Department of Community Affairs or DCA wreck Improvement for upgrad upgrading the playground equipment equipment at Garfield so great that's the back part of it that's uh where the playground is so that will be um thankfully from you know some money outside of our taxes that would be a nice Grant um several purchase orders were issued for large budgeted Capital items uh such as a DPW Annex storage garage at Central and chestnuts I think is what you said um commercial grade field groomers for our ball fields we've been getting many compliments from other towns on how well maintained so thank you to our DPW for that um fire department uh got a light rescue fire Tru they've been assisting in several situations in town and out of town uh in the past uh six weeks in particular I've seen a spike in that so thank you to them for that uh including one core accident that in involved a fuel spill and a drive uh that that ended up in a driveway of a residence and the fire department was there right away so we thank them for that and then from uh mayor Gallagher's uh newsletter he put together an advisory committee that uh bill could speak to that maybe a little bit of um putting everything together to oversee the master plan updates identify open space Define a cohesive downtown area prepare our required housing element so thank you to all those who agreed to be part of the committee um and next week I think it's next week next week so if you guys want to speak to that and that's that's all I have from Mayon Council thank you I think you just did very sufficiently that's what we'll be meeting about so thank you that's great good good update thanks all right construction official report was attached I think it was sent separately was a separate email for call so if anybody has any comments on that feel free otherwise no borrow engineer report not no Tom today um Financial secretary report so we have our second in command when it comes to financial secretary reports always a bridesmaid always a bridesmaid total budget 1,660 total escoro 1,850 and total total $3,510 respectfully submitted second and command great anybody have a motion motion to approve second all in favor I perfect hold on just writing that [Music] down all right minutes from the June 12th meeting anybody have any comments on those motion to approve second all in favor great okay any new business all right I know we have some old business though um the fence ordinance so um we did get back some comments John would you like to tell us what that's all about yes Mr chairman what this should interest the people here who are wanted to talk about fences so this the agenda burough Council has introduced two Orin es ordinance 12614 and 12622 24 I presume that they're going to be they were advertised for public hearing for the next meeting on the 15th yes okay so they've been referred to the planning board under the section of the municipal annus law 4055 d26a and what that basically says is that before the governing body can adopt any development regulation that they shall refer to the planning board planning board has 35 days to com on it that doesn't necessarily mean that the ordinance is automatically approved but it frees the council to do whatever they want with the ordinance I've known councils to defer and wait if you know the schedule work out but excuse in any event um so it's not like a it's it's an important deadline because the the council and land the way the law was set up it doesn't want bills to be languishing so what is it what is it that the board is tasked with there are basically two primary responsibilities and and the first one is the most important and what you need to convey to the governing body is whether or not the the ordinance is not inconsistent with the policies of the master plan and I use a language not inconsistent because it's a different standard to say consistent you that means it's got to be perfectly matched and the legislature understood when they adopted the ordinance the law that you know we can't always match things but they should be consistent and compatible and what this is is a it's a mechanism to coordinate legislative policy with planning policies that are developed by this board and it's kind of to coordinate what the left hand and right hands are doing so where everybody's informed so the finding the most important finding for the board is whether or not the introduced ordinance is not inconsistent uh if it is then the the planning board has a responsibility to point out what those inconsistencies are uh if it's not then you can say it's not not it's not inconsistent and and that's sufficient for the board should the board identif ify inconsistencies it creates a situation where the governing body can still adopt the ordinance but then what it needs is to adopt the resolution first by the full authorized me by the the the um full authorized membership of the council the majority of the full authorized membership uh to override the planning board's finding and then they have to put findings in the resolution as to why they think the ordance should still go forward then they can adopt the ordinance so even if the board disagrees at well at least the governing body is informed but they can still go ahead and do what they did um the second uh responsibility you have if if if you want it you do have an opportunity to make recommendations you can't say listen uh we think it should be 10 feet shouldn't be two feet for these reasons you can give feedback to the governing body and I've had that situation often and what happens there is sometimes the the governing body will defer and then reintroduce by making these changes that are suggested or they may say we like it just the way it is that's their prerogative but that's how the the land use law coordinates reviews of ordinances between the planning board and the governing body now in the instant applica in the instant ordinances quick question though John one quick question if we find an inconsistency with it does that stop the clock on the 35 days or still has to be approved within 35 days Days okay no it doesn't but at least the council's informed of what the issue is and then they have that extra responsibility to override now we're looking at master plan policies we're not looking at well in this section of the zone we're looking at master plan policies and I will tell you that in reviewing the I've reviewed both ordinances they are not inconsistent with the master plan policies that are embodied in the bur's planning documents uh you know we don't really speak to um necessarily speak to um fenes per se but we do have language in the plans that talks about character of residential neighborhoods which is where this would be a part of So within that context yeah there is a connection to the master plan um but what what the what the council's attempting to do and we can go through these sections is really clarify and tighten up uh the fencing ordinance beyond what we had originally considered we were just looking at Heights and and and processed this gets into uh some significant modifications U to the or Edits edits now the version I got was uh it's not St out some bolds it was in red the changes were in red which makes it easier to read correct so I went through each section um we can go through all of this now or defer that discussion to after the applications it's up to you because this you may have questions it's up to you Mr chairman we can do it after the application but we have to resolve it tonight that would be desirable yes yeah okay all right so we'll talk about that at the end let's just remember to do that because it might be I'll remind you yes well I'm sure all right uh any other old business you got to be a taxmas any Communications and there are no resolutions right no all right so we're going to get to that to the agenda we have we're showing uh volan and then poio but we're going to do poio first because pooo did hire an attorney and we want to be respectful to the cost associated with that if that's okay um so we start the pooo application Dian SM understanding notices are in order of publication and affidavit services and provide the board would have jurisdiction to proceed thank you Mr rean good evening Mr chairman members of the board for the record Bruce Whitaker from The Firm of McDonald Whitaker representing the applicant Mr poio Mr poio is the owner of 27 Greenwoods Road in oldan it's shown on your tax map as block 101 Lot number two uh he has constructed a single family home on the property and um on the basis of that he's received all the required approvals from the construction code official from the Inception of submitting for a building permit all the way through to the construction that has been completed and he and his family will reside there under a temporary certificate of occupancy as part of the application when it was submitted you'll hear this testimony and the exhibits you'll see this evening uh the applicant submitted a set of plans uh Eight Pages of which were submitted uh that basically shows the location of the home location swimming pool driveway and also references a 6foot fence um the construction code official uh granted a building permit based on those plans uh the engineer has had the opportunity from the burrow to review those plans uh and permitted it to occur and frankly our own engineer submitted to prepar those plans uh never called out that there was a difference of a 6- foot fence uh to the front of the property or to the rear of the property and you are aware of your ordinance that there is a Prohibition for a fence to be higher than 3 ft across the front of a residential proper I am not here to point fingers at anyone in like time we all make m mistakes we have times where there is an oversight on what occurs here we're going to walk you through the process and the reason I bring that up uh at the Forefront of this uh presentation is that it's not as if the applicant went and did something on their own uh without any type of an approval and did it uh as we've all seen happen on occasion where someone has built something without a permit uh in this instance uh Mr poio followed the rules say and follow the plans and you'll hear his testimony this evening follow the plans that were submitted the plans were revised you'll hear that too three additional times after the original submission and that 6 foot fence demarcation was shown on all of them um with that said uh those of you I'm trust have seen the property uh Mr pusio has at this point uh created a very good landscape plan uh and uh the landscaping that's there uh certainly uh helps to uh show how little the fence really has as far as an intrusion into the streetcape I submit to you that the Landscaping that is uh there is the type of landscaping that enhances the streetcape and the interesting part and when I reviewed this is that the plans show a fence uh that's 6 feet in height uh no one has ever called out what type of fence it could be I've done enough land use in the past and land use applications and represent a few municipalities myself and deal with planners all the time many times fences are permitted in the front yard but they have to be a certain caliber of fence uh maybe not a board on board maybe not a chain link but something more like an estate fence the plans that were submitted didn't call out for any type of fence but I would submit to you that Mr fio has put in the type of fence that any municipality would want to see and that is a fence that is an estate fence it's a fence that has uh very little uh as far as site is concerned uh that you basically do not look at it as an obtrusive object in a front yard and I would submit from a planning perspective that it is appropriate um the application I submitted to you had an addendum attached to it the addendum basically references the fact that an applicant is taking the position that uh based upon what has occurred here and the uh aspects of what exists there now that under the C2 criteria the benefits in this particular instance uh enhances um your zoning uh plan and on the basis of that uh there is no detriment in this particular instance so it's a C2 style variance uh I think there's two very important aspects to understand as we make this presentation this evening number one Mr pusio followed the plans it's not something that he did and then came back later to say I made a mistake and so would you make it right for me now that's number one uh and number two uh I think it's quite important to understand that in many instances the only chance we have to look at off fence or an issue is on a piece of paper here we have the final product and I submit to you that what's out there in the field right now in that front yard uh enhances the neighborhood and does not have a detriment from a zoning perspective that's an overview of the application I have two witnesses this evening I have the owner of the property who's going to walk us through historically what occurred and what he has done uh because basically what you're going to hear is that history that I've just given you a synopsis of and after it was called out by your zoning officer the zoning officer basically advised him that you have a TCO but show me that you're going to come in front of the planning board to get an approval of that fence and uh our second witness will be the planner uh that will be able to explain from a planning perspective why in this instance we respectively believe that you will have the ability to Grant the variance relief we are seeking that's an overview of the application unless there's any questions of me Mr rean I would have our first witness swor okay I'm going to SAR the applicant and also Mr Zabo the burough planner gentlemen do you swear or affirm that the testimonial given this proing sh should s you got I do let the rec refelect Mr Zabo the B PL morning cirle we have your full name for the record please Cherry poio 27 Greenwood Road thank you Mr poio you're the owner of the property that's the subject of this application is that correct that's correct and you've heard my overview of this application it's correct to say that you oversaw the construction of a single family home on the property that is correct and you're familiar with submitting uh a set of plans in order to obtain a building permit this is not your your first Venture into construction no it is not and that's correct okay so what I would like you to do is to give us uh a review of what was involv in your submission of these plans and walk us through these plans one by one so what we did is we submitted the plans which I have here whiter do you have anything to Mark yes we're going to mark them now A1 we're going to walk through them so we submitted on April 20th was Mark received April 20th of what year of 2023 apologize um and this included the six foot fence it included the full sight plan and it was approved so this this is a set of plans and it was prepared by Stonefield engineering correct correct and this is a set of plans that consists of I believe Nine Pages correct correct and the second page excuse me the uh the page C4 calls out on there the six foot fence correct and it also calls out the pillars that would be uh used or the peers that would be used for for the 6ot fence to be attached across the front of the property that is correct so what I've done is I've made copies of those for the board to look at you'll see that the plans I'm showing you tonight has all the revisions on it because you're going to hear in a moment uh that the plans were revised a number of times but each time the six foot fence was always marked on the pl so after that first set of plans were submitted what occur we meet some minor revisions to the hard skates and we submit another set which was reive on June 13 202 and the revisions that were made had nothing to do with changing the demarcation of the fence with the peers is that correct that's correct we remain the same and then they were submitted to the building department that's correct and that Reis set is also referenced in the caption under Stonefield yes what occurred after that then on July 14th we made additional revisions and we also submitted them and they were stamped received okay right change okay the first set was first set the first set was July 14th of 2022 quick quick question Mr Whitaker the set we just received is that the same thing we received yes I just want to make sure there's no difference and down in the bottom on the page you will see where it shows um the the revision dates down here so we're that's fine I just wanted to make sure it wasn't a different set of drawings all the differ set I have here is I have all the time stamps from the building department when they were accepted okay so the actual timeline is I apologize I'm going to correct the first set was submitted in July 14th 2022 the second set was submitted October 3rd 2022 the third set was April 20th 2023 and then the final fourth was June 13 2023 on all of the submissions that were made am I correct to state that the six-foot fence was shown on the uh plan yes that's correct and the six- foot fence and the demarcation of a fence went all around the perimeter of the property yes that's correct so it went across the rear went down the sides and it went across the front yes and the peers that have been built were shown on those plans also yes and the gate that is exist there now is also marked on those ples yes now after you submitted those four times and there's eight pages in each that actually show that fence so there's 32 pages that show a six-foot fence corre okay what occurred next in getting the building permit so I received a call from the building inspector asking me to come down um I thought it was going let's just back up a little bit after all these plans were submitted an actual building permit was issued correct we received a building permit all the way back in 22 okay and you then went and constructed the home and all the other improvements that are shown on these plans that we've marked as A1 uh you constructed them in accordance with those plans yes absolutely and in fact you constructed the fence the height of the fence the location of the fence the peers the height location the G height location as for those plans yes then what occurred okay so the home was constructed it was nearing the end and the fence had been erected about six weeks after it was up I received a call from uh Bob to come down to the office just Bob who rush and he is he's the building inspector and he want to discuss the fence he advised me to fill a separate application out for the fence because he said it was too tall I I pointed out that it was marked six feet but he said it wasn't clear enough so we you know we filed the application for the fence obviously received a denial and we were directed to you know submit an application to the board here we are on the basis of this the construction code official recognizing that you were going to make this application for the board to get an approval of the fence that had been previously listed on a set of approved plans um granted you a temporary certificate of occupancy yes you did and on the basis of that you're residing there right now yes just to clarify all the plans that were submitted the building permit that was was issued was based upon the plans that showed the six-foot fence correct now the plans that show the six-foot fence did not show the type of fence that you were proposing correct no it did not but the fence that you've always anticipated and and planned on proposing to do is the fence that's there now I've referred to it as an estate fence yes okay um I'd like you to explain to the board uh what prompted you to propose this fence in the first place well we felt that we just add to the aesthetic of the home and um we also wanted more security um I know that everybody knows that in the area including in oldan there have been burglaries and automobil stolen so we just wanted to add that extra layer of security and also it's a deterrent and uh we felt that it would be helpful and when you submitted your plans as part of the plans you submitted you had to and did in in fact include uh a landscape plan is that correct we did yes and I have a landscape plan that shows 347 trees and shrubs 705 perennials and over 200 um plants along the fence itself is that correct that's correct Mr Whit could you give me those numbers again sure sorry I went so fast Mr re cop copious notes okay lawyers are not good with numbers 347 trees and shrubs 7 105 perennials and 207 um plantings along the fence 27 207 a lot of plants and I would now like to direct you to the set of photographs you have to show what uh the Aesthetics of this uh fencing is at this time want to take me up take take us through these are photographs you took of your home with the fence correct yes these are all photographs taken from the street we have we're going to Mark these yes approximately when were they taken um 3 days ago and this shows the U the street skate yeah basically the front of the house at every angle it shows you know the all the par so walk us through these one at a the time to explain to the board and members of the public so this is directly across the street this is shot from the from the right side of the house this is shot from the left side of the house this is shot from the right side directly across the street from the right side from the left side from the left and again from the left approximately how high are these plantings in Plant High right now the Green Giant Ares are about 6 to 7 ft tall and they will grow about a foot year and I heard the word Green Giant I've learned from doing uh zoning work they are somewhat and basically deer resistance is that correct not every year not every year and do you have other plantings around foundation and around the the area in the front also yeah there's also perennials there some box Woods um yeah everything is basically screening the fence so you really can't see it when you drive by you really have to look closely to see the big fence there and uh as far as the fence itself is concerned it's attached to the peers that I referenced earlier right it runs right into the pi and those peers proportionately have been constructed to accommodate a 6ot fence correct from your perspective in construction if the fence were shorter than this than the six feet uh would the peers look out of line it would yes okay um let's uh explain and show where the gate is here is a photograph the gate here this is the gate on the right hand side of the property and this is a photograph of the gate on the left hand [Music] side just shows the left hand side again the right hand side and those gates are attached to the peers that were shown on the plan and the gates that have been installed are in the location that was shown on the plans that were submitted and used for the submiss for the um ability for the building permit to be issued corre I have no further questions at this time all right before we excuse me I have I'm sorry I do have one other Mr poio in looking at the estate fence that you uh did in knowing old Japan were you aware of any other estate fences of similar character or nature in the town um yes did you have some photographs of those also I do and I didn't really drive around looking for them just you know they're very obviously there so you can just tell us where these fenes are this is on hitting courtt these three photographs uh this is on Hill Crest Court this is on wal and so the purpose of my just presenting them is not to point out that there's others I know each piece of property has to be determined on its own merits but just to show that Mr poio was not thinking he was the first one to uh suggest a 6 fo saate fence but there was always some in town when you had your plant prepared correct yes that concludes it now Mr chair okay so before we do the run around the board I just want to Bruce You didn't mark any exhibit we'll mark the plans with the four dates A1 through right and then the pictures we'll mark the photographs for his property as A5 and then the photographs of the other properties is A6 [Music] all right so uh before we get started with everybody um what I'm going to talk about has no reflection on my opinion about the application I just want to make that clear um but but I do take uh offense to the assertion which I know you said you weren't trying to assert about um I'm going to say I'm going to use the word incompetence of of our building department official so I I work in the design and construction industry I'm a licensed professional I've had a a license in the in I'm an architect I'm had a licens for over 30 years I write building codes I work closely with Building Department officials um and I've been on this board for 18 years um it is not the responsibility of the building department official to find mistakes on the drawings it's great when he does but it's the it's the responsibility of the applicant and and I don't expect you to know that you're not an architect you're not an engineer you're not a contractor you're not a civil engineer but your architect needs to know that your architect needs to know that your attorney needs to know that they need to know in advance so the assertion that it was a responsibility and you repeating all the date stamps I take offense to that I take offense to that on behalf of our town official and on behalf of everybody on this board that's not his responsibility to do that if it was a mistake it was an honest mistake can I say something yes and we're not trying to say that Bob is a wonderful guy but it certainly came across that way I think I apologize did it was a little too heavy hand it was a little too heavy-handed what I'd like to say is we definitely did not come here trying to blame anybody because we have blame in this as well if they we're going to use that word absolutely we're not looking for blame absolutely let's start with the architect the architect made the mistake it was always my intention to comply from the beginning and I I can tell I I I can tell that's why I started with this what I'm about to say has no no reflection on how I'm going to vote on anything like that but I just want to get that point across I never want to hear that argument again I I think that I think that we went this direction because we just wanted everybody here oh we got the point to know and and all it had to be said was once I know and apologies for that but we want in the board to know exactly what happened from day one to to day 10 sitting there today that's all yeah and I get that I get that I understand that that's why I preface it the way I did my commentary later is have nothing to do with that it's going to be different okay but I just need to apologize if it came across that way and but just so the record's clear I never used the word incompetence no but that's how it came across when you keep talking about the date stamp and the date stamp and the date and the six foot was on the drawing and six foot was on the drawing the six foot was on the drawing it it was clear what was being asserted what I the word I used a careful word I used on the record was oversight and it was an oversight I said three not his responsibility and I said the oversight of our own engineer that prepared the pl that's who responsible understood all righty now let's start John I have no questions the testimony speaks for itself it's a matter of the planner's testimony on this that that should interest short this is factual Christine um no I one small question in this um in regards to the the the green Giants um I I missed the number that you said they grow pretty quickly I wanted to just ask Bill to confirm I mean you're like our tree guy that's pretty true I mean green Giants are known for privacy screens correct this uh if this hearing was delayed any longer you'd never even the fense thing we're hearing it today so I just want to confirm that green Giants are a privacy screen type of tree at least 12 12 inches a year is a true assertion there that's that was just my wanted to confirm with our tree I have nothing I have nothing um other than um I have no objection to the fence it it's attractive it's it's appropriate for the type of building thank you okay one 207 that could make it 200 I just work it off the plan number um and you had said that the fence now is like you can't see it's invisible but then the question was asked of you the peers are 6' High and the fence was 3 foot you said the fence would look out of place but you can't see the fence at 6 ft and you look at a place at 3 ft if you can't say it well you can see it I think from the inside yeah you can see from the inside I think that the other the other thing that we're missing is that's from an aesthetic standpoint but the other we're missing is the security part of it which is really important to us and speaking of Aesthetics God forbid knock out wood if you have a fire when the trees are how tall the trees are going to come down because they can't get any of the ladder trucks over the trees fire they can destroy everything okay just want to make sure that so I'm going to be the one to ask a bunch of questions so bear with me first of all I've been past your house and it's a beautiful house thank you I've been in town now for 24 years and I've watched Greenwoods get rebuilt almost the whole area has been totally revamped tell me one other house on your street that has a fence like that I can't tell you of any on my street you're right there are none and but there are two major houses the size of your house being built as we speak so if we approve this tonight what stops them from wanting to do the same thing secondly I want to make a comment you don't build a six foot post with aesthetic post for a three-foot fence so you built it always with the intention of having a 6 foot uh Security Fence in the front of the house that is correct cuz that's what I thought I was able to do yeah my initial thought of the plans my initial review of the plans I thought the only spot that I saw 6 feet was on the side yard where it said Security Fence I don't recall seeing anything maybe I missed it somebody can help me that showed the front of the house with a 6ot number on it but there was an existing fence I think that was there that had the number six next to it so it is marked in one location 6ot you are correct but it also isn't marked anywhere else in the plan that there's any other size in the property so that would just say it's the same fence it goes all the way around well it could be no fence in the front of the house well there's a line though that shows so if you look at the key okay Mr Poo are you in the construction business I am okay so it you should be knowledgeable that each town has their own zoning rules right and you're you're absolutely correct each town has their own zoning rules with fences with height coverage all of these things but you know we left it up the professionals to draw the plans and here we are today as we said earlier people made mistakes and again it wasn't intentional you know when you hired the fencing company to put the fence up I I put one fence up on my property and as soon as I met with the fencing owner he told me you have to get approval based on height in town make sure you're within these standards right building a house like yours you're telling me that the company that you hired oh did not guide you that this could be a problem no because we're working off the approved site plan and that and that that's what was approved what's on the site plan um I I think that's a stretch Mr CIO you said you're in the construction business you know straight up that whatever is on the plan isn't always what's built when the final product is done so you're you're 100% right but we use these plans as our guide to construct this home and it says six foot fence and that's what we built six with fence on the side the original the plans that they emailed to us in the beginning of the application show it in the front as well if you look if you look at the at the um at the symbols where it shows a symbol for a fence and then you go over to the plan where it says 6 foot and you follow that same symbol that's the fence you'll see that it goes all the way around the property the ones they sent us in beginning okay I'm done I've been here 60 years I remember one was Woods the green and there's only one person in this room that's been here longer yeah ins out of my bag so I too drive by your home frequently it's a beautiful home thank you um my in-laws live around the corner so very frequently I drive faster home and I do think not calling out the engineer who designed the plan and indicated 6 feet with only one liter or two lers leading to it there is no indication on it that says limit of 6ft fence begin the 3ft fence so it's quite possible as Engineers are you'll see typically drawing as as quickly as they can to complete projects under deadlines that they forgot to check the ordinance we're here where we are now the fence in my opin professional opinion is in proportion with the scale of the home the arbor that you planted on the road side of the fence correct yes are going to grow and envelop that fence within in my professional opinion two or three years and I would think that you may want to hedge them not that I'm going to dictate your maintenance but to Mike's Point the access for a ladder truck might be encumbered by a you know a row of 20 foot or more tall green giant or verities so I will head you for put the ladder um great so um I I don't take aesthetic offense to it I'm just disappointed that we're here and everybody's here and I'm sure we'd like to get past this so you know taking into account what our other um planning board members said you know we don't want this to set the precedent for other people to say let's break the rules and then everybody thing will be okay you know I think we now have a red flag in our building department everybody knows about the fences we're updating our fence ordinance which you know is important so I don't think we'll make that mistake again and at this point that concludes my comments thank you I just have a quick question for Bob what being I KN I know what everything Charlie said and I understand that is there any exposure to the town or anything given that the permits were issued and the work has been completed is there any case law or previous experience on that I don't believe so the board will cons proceed to consider the application based on the testimony the evidence the applicant indicated that planting testimony will be submitted presumably satisfying the criteria for the granting of a C2 variance I I really don't think there's exposure but anybody can sue anybody for anything that's all that's all thank you uh couple of questions what's the distance in the fence to I got to the middle of the road is it along your right away line just on the inside of your yeah right away line so what is that right away line like 10 ft typically 10 I think it's 10t yeah 10t okay and what would the distance of the green Giants be uh from the road from the curve from the curve line I would say probably another I would say probably if it's if it's 10 feet I would say they're 5et from the curve is what I would say yeah I would uh on Bo's comments that those trees grow foot a year B they grow certain amount in width and it wouldn't be long before they would be encroaching on the road uh second one uh and I would agree that uh maybe training as a defense has a fence with the an alternative if I'm not not I'm not mistaken uh fenes not fenes and living fenes not required to be minimum of 10 from that's a good question John do you know think I think they're providing a new ordinance I don't that's correct Mr Regan the or there are no regulations for creating a wall of vegetation along the frontage of your property but the new ordinance uh talks to that and we'll talk about that later since it's not law at the moment hasn't been adopted okay that's all I just want to say that the plan is to trim them into a hedge very similar to I think there's like several homes on the wol that do that now they're all our provi and they trim them into a hedge that's our plan one other one other point Mr chairman from the on the north side of the property defense is very visible to the neighbor on that side from an aesthetic standpoint I I think I find it somewhat objectional perhaps that may is here today so we can find out thank you that's is that when it's a Cyclone Fence or the new no it's it's the new fence but it's not screened in any way and the new fence is an aluminum fence yes would you be willing to put screening in like you did along the front sure absolutely thank you we're we're going to open the meeting to the public for for um questions directly to Mr poio about his testimony it's questions only not comments anybody make a motion motion second second all in favor all right does anybody from the public have any uh questions not comments for Mr poio about his testimony have to come up yeah name I'm sorry to do but you have you name an address again it's okay you hear me from John pesel Aqua s Klein Court than two quick questions sure um have you sued your architect for your attorney fees in this matter not yet section okay answer it's yeah oh is that is that not a good uh answered the question go ahead next question all sorry it wasn't a good question um at what point in the process I it felt there was a little bit by the way thank you for kind of clearing a lot of questions had up going to make my night easier um at what point in the process did you become concerned about security versus uh as you were designing your you know the from the beginning the ex so so the security concern was always an issue for you we always we we always had the defense planned okay and then last I think it was kind of talked about but I I had looked at the plans way way ago it was I forget where I saw them maybe they were here yeah okay um am I correct that it was just one indication of six foot fence and it's on the side it just that's what I thought I recall seeing and that's what it is and you're you're you said because you the the symb the symbol goes all the way around but that's why okay thank you thank you Mr anybody else from the public have any questions from Mr poio about his testimony seeing none do we have a motion motion second all in favor next up thank you next I would call our planner Mr seckler sorry would you raise your right hand do you swear or affirm that the testimony will given this proing Shel to s yes and further Rec State your phone name please and spell your last name my name is Matthew seckler that's s c kle r address is 92 Park ad and Rutherford New Jersey chairman Mr SE has been qualified as a planer before on the boards I represent I recommend if being qualified without any additional testimony unless you want to provide thank you thank you Mr Seer you've been engaged as a planner to evaluate this uh application is that correct that is correct and on the basis of that uh can you provide to the board just the background of what you did in preparation for your testimony this evening absolutely as part of this uh application I reviewed the application materials that includes the plans uh the photographs and the actual application that was filed before the board I reviewed the uh ordinance the master plan as well as visited the site took photographs not the photographs you saw there but I have my own photographs and on the basis of that have you formulated uh a review and an opinion as it pertains to a justification for permitting the existing fence uh to remain absolutely yes and you're familiar with the municipal land use criteria for purposes is the variance relief we are seeking correct uh I would therefore ask that you provide your analysis to the board at this time certainly and again we're before this board seeking a variance related to fence height uh your ordinance has actually 10 standards as it relates to fence we meet nine of those 10 standards the only standard that is not met is for uh Lots such as this an interior lot uh the current ordinance only allows for a three- foot high fence um the as was mentioned earlier your ordinance does not speak to things such as solid fences material to be used on the fence uh those types of characteristics it just is there's a height limit for the front yard uh areas um so in looking at that ordinance uh again the type of variance uh relief that we're seeking would be from the C2 criteria flexible variance criteria we're not seeking hardship clearly there's nothing about the property that's preventing a 3-ft fence being constructed other than the fact that a 6ft fence was already constructed um so we're seeking the C2 uh standard which is uh weighing the benefits versus the detriments of this application um and again as part of this this application one of the things we look at is to again see one the purpose of the fence and to see those negative impacts what could be negatively affected by the the fence itself and one of the key aspects especially with fencing is from a negative aspect you're always concerned about the Aesthetics what does it look visually you don't necessarily want a compound type look with where you have a complete wall a solid fence along the whole uh um area but again obviously fencing uh is meant to provide some level of security whether it's um whether it's uh from theft or from children running in the street again A lot of times you have you know Corner lots that ends up being the concern um so we look at you know balancing that safety which with the negative aesthetic effects from a safety standpoint um obviously there has been a rash of of uh car thefts and break-ins in the past obviously it's not unique to this property or even the the community at large but again in July of 2022 Chief Tracy did of the police department did Issue a I guess a press release or public um letter you know uh discussing the rash of uh uh vehicle um thefts or attempted vehicle thefts uh in ultap pan during that time Bergen County similarly in 2022 recognized that auto thefts were up 50% uh during that time period but again of course you know that is not unique to this proper again that also necessarily is not you know uh we're not seeking a D1 variance so we have to show why this site is the only site that can have offence uh in the entire Community but I do want to you know provide some at least details towards why um security is important in a site like this terms of Aesthetics again obviously there were some board members that have already kind of weighed in on the aesthetic aspect having visited the site itself um I don't believe that the fence itself uh provides any type of let's say long wall or complete screening where you know really it becomes unwelcoming uh also the way that it's broken up uh again I did get a sneak prak I think at your future ordinance or your potential ordinance and it does kind of allude to the fact that having uh fencing you know certain type of uh being able to see through a certain amount of it I think it was 75% was important and a f fence like this uh exceeds that on the fence portion of the of the fence um as well so again the idea is not to have you know a compound this is aesthetically pleasing again I think I'm look at the wrong photographs of my left uh but the you know being the material it is the color that it is the size of the house the way the uh house is set back and the plantings itself the plantings help break up the height so you don't basically see an entire six foot high fence you see right now portions of fence and then over time as the plantings grow you'll see less and less of that fence and it'll be like other I'd say living type fences that are in the community again while there are not um any back fences that match this one there are other similarly I'd say living screening for some other properties in in the general Greenwoods area there were also some other fences uh that look to be about 6 feet in height uh in the general vicinity although they are seem to be Corner Lots um I think if you look towards the back corner of Corgan uh where it meets Greenwoods I think there's a long property that has what looks to be a fence similar to this no pillars but seems to be at 6 foot height you know even if you look at there's a pump station further down the Road from that that again I think has around a six' high fence obviously different purpose it's not a residential home The Pump Station but it is not uh I would say atypical to see a fence of this height on roadways again not in the front yard not necessar residential I think if you go down I think it's I might pronounce this wrong augle road hle road um you know does even have a chain link fence at Six Feet Again separating the roadway from the the lake property uh the lake in the rear but again from a security me so it's not like having a 6ot fence is unheard of but obviously it's particular to certain properties in the area so when I look at the negative impacts of this application I do not see a substantial negative impact with this application and balancing some of those positive criterias that I look at here in terms of uh promoting purpose I which is promoting a desirable visual environment obviously uh visual desirable visual environment is in the beholder not everyone is going to agree to Art is art or a good architecture is a good architecture but I believe that this does promote a desirable visual environment I believe it does meet purpose C which is the light air and open space again because it has that open Nature to the fence it's not meant to be that solid wall or board on board type fence look and again I do think there's uh relative aspects of purpose a health safety and general welfare that a fence does provide and help prevent um you know thefts or or break-ins again I think the fence in front of us right here may be about 3 feet not stopping me from I'm not going to storm the the board but it would not stop me from easily getting over the board uh getting over to the board while obviously a six foot fence or you know your Podium height would be more of a det turn in that nature when you're 62 you're going to find this fence I think handle that but again I do believe that you know in breaking up the fence height with the plantings is mitigating some of that height and nature um and makes it less imposing and again I believe that this application when balancing those positive and negative criteria I see some positives and again those potential negatives I think are are minimal and can be outweighed by that positive thank you that's all the questions I have Mr chairman all right we are going to open the what board members question oh right sorry John uh just couple of observations um you heard earlier from the applicant that there are no other fences of this nature in the neighborhood how does that impact the neighborhood as it compares to where it exists yeah and again I I would agree that there's no interior lots that have six foot high fences along the streets but I do see other potential Corner lots that have fences I didn't measure them again whether they're 5 feet or six feet but appear to be higher than 3 feet in the neighborhood um so while I agree that there are no ones that would have received this variance uh potentially um I believe that it's not negatively impacting the neighborhood when you're on a corner lot and you have a six' high fence similarly I don't think that this would have that same uh negative impact um can you Enlighten the board about your opinion as to why we regulate the heights of fences in front yards I your opinion I imagine it's from a visual uh aspect it's again to you know create a um not a visual deterrent uh you know something that is making someone feel like una aart of the community they obviously want to have that uh visual nature being able to see people in a front yard walking around you know you're in your your uh front porch you know that type of inviting nature I think is encourag in communities again which is why I think having some sort of um you know measurement in your ordinance in terms of you know how how how a spacing the fence should be made having a certain amount of open space is important um obviously other deterrence or aspects of fencing is whether it provides or prevents any type of proper vehicular um uh visual ability so if you're coming out of your driveway can you see properly so you don't you know potentially hit uh someone walking along the sidewalker in this case the street in their stroller and again I think that is somewhat remedied in this application and fing your ordinance is that the gate itself is set back so while we're about 10 feet off on the fence where the gate where the car would enter is 20 feet away so you basically have a whole car link before you reach the the roadway between where the gate is and the street itself so I do think that is also um obviously a a sensitive standpoint when it comes to fencing in front yards one of the concerns I I I have with this situation is this reference to security uh I understand the importance of security for people um but that's not necessarily the intent of fencing and in your opinion I mean where does the board balance security against the character of a neighborhood agreed again it's somewhat a a board question as opposed to a plan question again I'm stating that I don't believe that the negative aspect of you know having a six foot high fence outweighs the positive aspect of again not just security again I think this per provides a nice visual um uh fence in this area but obviously you know that's that is for the board to decide and the board to uh deliberate on would be where that balance is and again I'm not speaking that this property is or I'm not I don't believe the threshold is this has to be the only unique property in town in which you know safety is concerned clear that's not the case one of the one of the things associated with the C2 argument is that somehow that you're advancing the intent and purposes of the land you slw and you've I you've cited Aesthetics which is I think J I don't remember the top of my head uh and that that and you only have to site one you don't have to go through the entire litany meet every criteria um and and and but but there has to be some public benefit that acres to that can you touch upon that you know you can't give it to an indivi the C has to be a public benefit not an individual benefit how would you address that to the board correct and I I do think that is uh typically a a struggle from a residential standpoint because you know most of the applications are serving the resident that is living here and not you know uh the public at large but I do believe that again the landscaping that's provided and the fence itself not only is benefiting the resident but also the neighborhood again the plantings themselves that we're looking to kind of mitigate the height are on the public side of the fence it's not on the private side of the fence so we're looking to again enhance the way the building looks or the house looks from the street which would be from the public benefit standpoint not necessarily from the resident themselves I have no F I have no further questions thank you Mr all right thank you um I I just had two quick questions um do your neighbors to the north their neighbors to North would be 31 Green Works I know it's lot three it is 31 yes1 uh and is there anything in your opinion that you would see Could Be A disruption to neighbors there um I don't specifically again I I I didn't notice but obviously when the board members mentioned that it might be a little um empty on that corner there uh in terms of being able to provide some planting so obviously that's something that could be added again obviously need to understand where the RightWay line is and the fence is to make sure that could be properly screened and uh you actually did brought up something and you I think it answered my question actually but about the their ability to to exit their driveway and and you you in your opinion you feel that they don't have any sight line blockage issue that they're able to see for a safety concern for you know pedestrian traffic or cor a lot of times again when you have a gate or a driveway that's basically right on the property line that's when you kind of run that issue that and there's enough space this is yeah again the the the fence basically bends back 10 ft Beyond where it's 10 ft back of the curve today so you got that 20 ft between the the gate and the the road so that's a car I don't know what the applicant drives but most cars are between you know 16 and 18 ft so You' be that's good and then lastly just said General thank you for reading the town's ordinance on the fencing because as a member of the council I appreciate that you did your homework on that so nine you said you met the criteria for nine out of 10 I believe you said so thank you or they weren't applicable but there was only one that thank you for doing your homework on that it's appreciated that's what is that thanks Tom um yeah you mentioned the gates how do the gates open are they electric manual I believe they're electric but the applicant uses it every day so they would all right and they're typically closed how if there was an emergency would uh would they be overridden firearm goes off automatic okay thank you Swit just a couple quick questions do you see a lot of six foot fence applications I mean and I asked that question because most towns don't allow 6ft fences they usually allow 4 hours is a little bit more strict where we're work on that um but do you see a lot of six foot fence applications I happen to have one next week in Crest kill so I would say yes I have seen others um but uh again I think it does vary again three four six sometimes I see um you know six in certain areas and maybe even eight in the back type of thing but again I four and five seem to be where it lines up but again I do have another application literally next week they generally tend to be fences like this where it's more open you and typically open and I tend to see the higher fences where you have Gates you know typically I see 3 4ft fences when they're just fencing not with the gates a lot of times again the type of gate system seem to be more on the 6 foot high so instead of having I think a lot of times like a low fence and than a high gate you end up with fencing that's consistent and the last question about what you've experienced do they tend to be more on Corner lots and we talked a little bit about Corner Lots before why is that again I've noticed it more on Corner Lots again sometimes it's the zoning regulations you know sometimes it's you may have two front yards and one of the front yards you get relief on a fence uh application from another one again is going back to the health safety and Welfare you know children or things like that you know you want to Pro protect them from going on to the street and when you already have when you have two front yards that becomes an issue I was talking about that from you know from an aesthetic standpoint you know when you're driving B seeing a 6o high fence to me it doesn't matter when you're driving by the impact whether it's someone's sidey yard or someone's if they're on a corner lot or not a corner lot it's whether that's negative or not a negative impact or not and then last question is do you feel that you were able to um respond to Mr Z's question about the benefit to the community again it is it is a a difficult balance there and again I I would lean on the fact that this is aesthetically pleasing and again the plantings being on the public side was basically the emphasis on creating a better visual environment for the public versus the president is and I have a question for both of you is it being aesthetically pleasing to the neighbors appropriate in a response to the question about how it benefits the community is that a I don't I don't know I think it two two two two parts and and of course Mr SEC should chime in one um is the idea that it it Blends in and does not adversely affect that really goes towards the negative criteria in my opinion more so than than the positive uh although there is a provision in the purpose of the law that talks about aesthetic uh and that is a legitimate uh purpose and the board could determine that the Aesthetics of this is such that it it it Blends in the fence appropriately in the neighborhood and that's how you would reconcile that that issue um but you need to be convinced of that you you know again the burden is on the applicant as you know and the board has to accept that as as a as an appropriate response to the variant and I guess the piece that I would weigh in on is that it's one of the ideas that let's say a rising tide raises all Vates you know when you have a property that has an enhanced aesthetic it makes the neighborhood look better it makes everyone look better if you had a house that was you know vacon and in disrepair and it gets fixed up that is you know a benefit to the whole neighborhood again I'm not speaking to what the former house looked like or any other else's property but again there is an aspect of being in neighborhood of well kept homes and well well-kept um Lawns and things like that that does you know raise the whole General neighborhood thank you that's all I have is the the neighbor 31 here the neighbor to the north that everybody keeps talking about the vacant fenes are they here I'm sorry Jon house is own okay okay thank you um if we do approve the application and um like to throw in a stipulation about that North part of the fence that the applicant additional screening screening and maintained I guess it would be on the inside of the fence cuz you can't plant on your neighbor's fence whether in the career or not um I just want to have that stipulation Mr puto agreed to that yeah we have we have no we have no objection want it approved by the B engineer or someone in the and for security I know I have my property assigned it says you don't have to be faster than a dog you just got to beat him to the fence so maybe you can put that up on the the outside there that's all I have how do I follow don't try yeah I'm unfortunately going to not raise the tidee I have a question you talked about the neighborhood and the fences Mr poio has already agreed nowhere on that street are there any of those fences in fact I I do a lot of walking at least a year ago I was had some health and I had to overcome and I always walk through Greenwoods down Ogle the whole works I'm very familiar with that neighborhood my kids had friends on that street um so although you're talking about neighborhood and fencing in other areas that's not that area when we're looking when I'm looking at the master plan I'm looking at how is it enhancing the immediate area now in my neighborhood when people come out we walk to each other's front lawn and stand and talk this if somebody wants to become friends because they're Neighbors they have to talk through a gate or wait until you open it I don't see how this is enhancing the the appeal of the neighborhood the house without a doubt the Landscaping which is different than the fence you would have put Landscaping in whether or not a fence was even added okay and that doesn't make the fence part of the landscape it's just there and as admitted by the applicant it's there for security reasons primarily for security reasons and that doesn't fit o to pen and uh I have a problem with that where where do they deliver your packages when nobody's home on the street we open a nobody's home how do you do that we can open it from our pH only if they call you how does that work so what happens is if you have notification when somebody brings the ballot gate and if we recognize who it is or we know it's a package that we're expecting we open the gate they bring the package in and then when they're gone the gate closes by itself you must have different Amazon men than I do because they just drop and run my camera barely sees them for more than 10 seconds I I'm just I just want to point out that the way I see it you're you're saying things that are not accurate if you look at old toan in general yeah we have other areas and they were done a long time ago uh the one at the end of Ogle which was a very big piece of property that man is now retired and moved but that was there when I moved in almost 24 and a half years ago so we're talking about today and going forward and your house is beautiful it may you may think it fits the character in the neighborhood unfortunately I don't so I I'm I don't your testimony doesn't really sway me in any way I don't think it's proper some of the things you was say all right so we all have a deer problem in Old Japan I'd say so Landscapes are expensive especially when you're planting 207 of these and 347 of those and 705 perennials I'm sure they're not all deer resistant but a house of your caliber graced with beautiful hydrangea and all the other Delicacies for deer will actually be more valuable than a denuded house with the variety of three different plants that can grow with consistent deer predation therefore I would argue that he's actually increasing the comps of the neighborhood and providing a public benefit to the neighborhood because of the Lush Landscaping within the confines of the f which is 6t it's only the green Giants that can stand up to the deer that are on the outside so in an odd way he is actually I think Rising the tide of the neighborhood but so does that mean the $2 million house that's still under construction or it may be finished one on the corner a little well there's one on the corner and there's one about four houses on the other side of the street okay let me that all those should be able to come in and make their case it's the old adage well I mean that's Rising that's Rising the ti right they can come to the they can seek a variance if they'd like this six foot fence because now that we're redefining our every application has the opportunity I'm with you based on the evidence with you it's just harder toate it at that point once you improve it there's no precedent and the old going forward I think we're going yeah I think we'll all be informed so uh do I have any other comments I don't think have any other comments thanks Bill D we got no no comments thanks you mention something with regard to the transparency of the fence certain amount certain percentage I haven't calculated this one I just from the sneak preview that I got from the ordinance that you guys are reviewing tonight I think has yeah there's a proposal to change our proposal to have it 75% open I don't think we had 75% open in our original language um based on what I've seen exceeds the 75% okay however once the green GI grow next year you won't see you won't see them you won't see the than one you won't see the flowers that have been so so that's my only Point all right now I promise I'm going to open it up to the public for questions to the planner only about his testimony anybody have a motion motion second all in favor I all righty does anybody have questions from Mr Seer about his testimony regarding the planning that's questions only no comments come on good opportunity all right seeing none is there a motion to close second all in favor I thank you Mr second this this concludes our presentation on direct any closing comments public comment first okay my comments would be at the end that's fine submiss is after public commentary all right if necessary so we want to open it up to the public for comments about the application be and each has be sworn if they have any comments so any motion motion second all in favor all right anybody from the public have any comments about the application doesn't matter have to come up to give your name and address and you're going to be sworn in you raise your right hand please do you swear or affirm that the testimonial will give his proceeding shall to selfie done yes for direct State your full name and spell your last name please and give us your address my name is Kathy Fable epis and Frank abl my address is 14 Stewart Court in ultap pan thank you um first I want to thank this um planning board I think you guys are great you are asking some very good questions um I see a little bias here and there but I want to I've been a resident of all Japan since um for 31 years um I live back there I live U my first first house that I built was on um Buckingham Place at six Buckingham Place there is not a single fence like that on any property back there at all um and in 1993 when I built my house my plans included a 6ft fence and 6ot stanions and the town told me absolutely no way there was a limit and I saw no sense in putting in a 3-foot fence I abided by the law and did not put in a fence in 199 7 I built a pool house I had plans to build a pool house in my backyard at sixth Buckingham Place the peak of the poolhouse which was already framed out um exceeded the limits the height limit for a pool house by 24 in I spent a little over um a year and a half coming before the planning board redoing the plans um we came to an agreement for a 12in variance and reframed the peak of the pool house per the direction of the town and again I ask permission not forgiveness and I did what I was told to do and that was many many years ago I was a little surprised and and Mr PUO and Miss P this is not personal at all I don't know you guys but I was a little surprised when I also walk around the neighborhood and I grew up on Long Island and d drove through Queens just on the border of queens and every every single house was gated and fenced and it looked like it was armored and I mean I know we have safety issues but I don't want to live in Queens um I think it was a little disingenuous that the planner said that there's a lot of theft in Old Jaan of cars there is but it's predominantly because people leave their key fobs in their car and therefore there's an invitation with the door open with a key in it to steal a car I think there are no theft of cars s that are not given a key on exit so I read the um application and it is a beautiful fence and you know I kind of laughed at the idea that you know it was an estate style fence because it is the problem is that the other 30 Acres of the estate are missing it does not fit the neighborhood whatsoever I mean you don't even see Gates like that in Alpine so it does not fit our neighborhood whatsoever um I think more importantly my husband and I often walk through the neighborhood no health issues but we walk and in going through there with those Gates very often my pool guys drive into my driveway my gardeners um the window cleaners all pull into my driveway in walking down the block there are always vendors parked on both sides of the street leaving a very narrow walkway for people people and I mean there's been at least three incidents where people have either been very close to being hit or I mean we we are literally now put in a situation where there's one lane going down Greenwoods so it totally does not meet the character of the neighborhood or the complexion and I do want to say that um aside from the safety issues and the Aesthetics again beautiful but not for old Japan there were a number of neighbors that alerted um all of us and as you said walking down the street you talk to people um the adjacent neighbor I understand is a rental but there are other neighbors that were here in February that are now on summer vacation out of the country that aren't here so there were a number of people that had similar complaints that were I have to object to that because that would be height it is height okay just want to let you know because I know you saw people here but thank you very much I I do hope that you vote against this because if not we are going to have Queens in Al Japan thank you m b anybody body else have any comments you know the drill by he hasn't been sworn yet though yeah I know he's going take his name address you swear or affirm that the testimony will give his pring shall be TR sa done uh it'll be the truth well just say yes please no I don't swear to God it's not my deal oh you'll affirm then you'll affirm I affirm you said so help me God I don't do that okay so you affirm that you testimony I affirm it will be true okay and then give us your address please uh seven Klein Court um so I would urge you not to approve variance and also not personal it's just my opinion first thing if if Mrs Fable and I agree on anything it's either means it's really good or really bad I don't know which uh sorry so just a couple of of points um and I don't know what you are allowed and not allowed to to bring into your decisioning um from my point of view um it just if I'm if if I were building a home and I were concerned about security from the outset um I think it's a little I I I don't want to ascribe motive but it just is troubling that there was no explicit conversation hey this so the six- foot fence in the front of the property is going to it's good with you guys right um it that that conversation never happened is troubling secondly if in fact every bit of the testimony is 100% accurate the way it happened and if our town employee missed something that he should have caught or they should have caught um and if in fact um that may create some kind of a liability issue I I don't know any of these things but if it did the proper step is to settle make a settlement with the property owner and spend some of the town's money to say hey we made a mistake you know here's let's make a settlement to put in a proper approvable fence the the remediation of a of a problem if there was a problem of a mistake is not to go ahead and change the zoning to to permit a variance um I I think this is my I think this is my time um the last thing I would say is that not everyone in town opposes this if I were on if I were one of you I would be I would ask or I will ask that you guys are all very conscious of that because as soon as this is approved I would wager there are many homeowners it's a beautiful home that was built I just drove through that neighborhood today it is by far not the most grand home in that neighborhood and if I'm living in like you know oh there's going to be a lot of keeping up with the Joneses I think that would that you would uh needlessly cause and then someone brought up deer you you know I am tired of spending money on uh landscape materials to be you know eaten by deer you guys approve this I can pretty much guarantee my wife is going to be in here looking for a six six foot fence around the entire property to protect her patunas or whatever so and then the last thing is this is a question you don't have to answer I'll leave because I was a little snippy so if anyone wants to answer this if the homeowner sold the property tomorrow to me and I have a deep iding hatred of green giant arbites would I be allowed to tear them down I think I would be and then we're back to a 6- foot fence where we're in a town that only permits three-foot fences thank you for listening and what I was going to say before is there there's no liability to the town but the town's not going to settle okay with any applicant regarding that is the responsibility of a design professional which is why they carry Insurance to design appropriately to know all the codes and requirements clearly it was an error on the design professionals part I'm not proud of that because I'm a design professional I can tell you that that's not that's not appropriate I think your question earlier which I know Bob was was objected to is the more appropriate question regarding that Mr chairman um just on that point Mr Reagan can elaborate further on the law there's a certain level of immunity that goes to officials it's not absolute you cannot knowingly break the law but there's a recogn I don't see any liability here at all they're they're covered under under protections that are offered because you have to be able to do your job without the fear of getting sued every time you make a mistake because guess what we're human right so it happens I I've supervised enough departments to know it happens it's frustrating but it's it's a phenomenon but it's protected to the extent that you it's an honest mistake just so the board is understands how the process is anybody else from the public have any comment regarding the application um you raise your right hand please do you swear or affirm that the testimonial given per Shel to and your name and address please Lena Anderson uh 39 Greenwoods Road these guys are my neighbors uh two houses down I love their house I think they have added to the street I love the Landscaping I love the design aspect I think there's nothing DET turn about it I think some other properties that don't keep their properties well um the grass is dead the construction I I live next door to the construction that's never going to end on the corner um and I for 2 years uh we bought our house and that house was being knocked down nobody was living in it how many nails in my tires I've had from from the guys next door so I'm not going to talk about that in my opinion that house is not pretty but but you know that's their they built it they they designed it I think their house is gorgeous the fence really does it it adds to the aesthetic it doesn't you know I don't think it's uninviting I think everything about the house is beautiful so I walk past it daily I drive past it daily [Music] a