Wednesday June 12th 2024 planning board meeting test equipment and the following day what are you doing now wife I my wife is going a trip so she was she have a car is kind they have amenities swimming pool barbecue area in compliance with the open public meeting law notification of this meeting has been sent to our official newspapers and other Publications circulated in the burrow of alapan and notice has been posted on the Bolton board at Burrow Hall please not fireex is located at the main entrance council chambers and in the rear of the council chambers uh let stand and salute the flag to the flag the United States of America to the repblic stands Na godible and justice for all all right roll callio here here here here councilwoman misso here counc here Mr ell Mr ludus here Mr SCA here mran here Mr aaran here Mr Kramer here to get a motion to open the meeting to the public for non-agenda items motion second all in favor I I anybody in the in the audience have any questions for us regarding non-agenda items hearing none motion second all in favor thank you all right environmental Commission report Mr is not okay none motion to postone to the next meeting motion Council liaison report I'll take a stab at it thank you I'll be brief tonight so um just want to let everybody know that the Oaks Park house um we have a preliminary design we do have to have an architect formally design it so we can put it out to bid but I think everybody on the council is in agreement and we all like the design that's been put forth uh currently the DPW is seeking bids to demolish the current Oak Park house but then uh we have to provide some temporary bathroom facilities because that's become very important to park doors um that might happen as soon as this fall possibly even sooner to demolish it and then build um a new structure in the same footprint as the old one with more of a covered area and a smaller interior space primarily used for storage and possibly some offices where the rec department could uh have some meetings and it might be an full purpose meeting room for different um committees assembly place an assembly place so that's exciting the veterans are looking to uh improve the memorial over there at Oaks Park um with some more design uh features um as you know the veterans committee in town has been on a roll here lately so that's the next uh thing that they'll be working on and the mayor has is appointing a uh mayoral U committee studying the open space the affordable housing element and the master plan so that that team just met we'll be meeting uh every month until this is all wrapped up I know that Nikki is an integral part of that and so is our chairman here um and uh thanks to our own planner John Zabo we are very well positioned to do a great job on that with his under his watchful guys and uh I think that completes my report and and let it be known that councilman Boyce is also on the committee thank you I'm also on the Comm all right everybody has a copy of the construction official report any questions about that okay burrow engineer report no new report Mr chairman I'll take any questions that you might have none for me anybody Financial secretary report so this month out of uh budget we have $1,750 and total out of escrow $1,582 42 for a total of $2,589 192 do we have a motion motion second all in favor okay than you minutes we have the minutes from the May 8th meeting does anybody have any comments on those motion to approve second all in favor I we're steamrolling along here all right any new business or old business for that matter let's cover them both in one shot we have a lot of lot of stuff going on [Music] tonight all right great any Communications Diane resolutions there are none all right so we're ready to get started first one's going to be the Colonial Manor which I have to recuse myself on in addition Mr chairman since this is a D2 variance the class one and class three members councilman masaro and councilman Bo are ineligible to participate and they required to leave the days okay required to leave so will you folks should come up Dian my understanding notices are in order toce okay we made the announcement okay just one question are we going to see are we going to do Parker place tonight or not it all depends on Colonial okay all right don't leave good that was easy yeah okay so we're going to uh have a uh application for the Colonial Manor good evening Mr chairman members of the board Matthew capizzi on behalf of the applicant as the board is familiar I'm sure this is an application for the AL toan Manor which is an existing ban Hall facility within the burrow it has been the sub with an application before this board on several occasions uh this application seeks to do several housekeeping items to help further refine the operations of the existing Banquet Hall facility essentially the application distills it down to five major uh points of proposed improvements there's an existing cocktail room that we'd like to put on a one-story addition to that will add about 720 Square ft of building coverage to the facility as the board may be aware there is a seating limitation in the main banquet hole area of 296 seats the expansion of this area will not impact that existing condition and we are not seeking a modification of that existing condition uh at present when you go to the facility when there's a valley operation the valley occurs on the southernly side of the portion and patrons queue their vehicle there and walk approximately 80 ft to the main entrance Door uh outside and the elements and it's a bit of a walk and the vehicles Quee along the sub side of the property towards Ulta pan Road we're seeking to eliminate that operation by creating a drop off area by the existing main entrance and that will be achieved by creating a circular driveway area approximate to the main entrance that will be double wide allow two vehicles to circulate around the main entrance at the same time and to provide for a covered area to ow patrons to enter and exit um their vehicles were creating a port for share at that main entrance level so those are essentially two and three points that we're seeking to achieve by way of this application approximate to that circular driveway area is a little just aesthetic water for fall feature just to provide some interest in that location help break up some of the parking area that our architect will discuss during his testimony and U during Co we had constructed a paer patio area along the Northerly portion of the site so we can have outside activities during that period of time we recognize fortunately covid is predominantly behind us and that patio area now needs to go away this application seeks to significantly remove that patio area and that walk in that area we are seeking to keep a small patio area in the northwest corner of the site to allow a small area for a bridal party to congregate so we can have outside ceremonies U of A short duration approximately 45 minutes the ceremony would conclude Itself by 7 p.m. and there would be other operational limitations that were part of the application that we'll discuss this evening there is a historical condition that does not permit outside ceremonies we are seeking to modify that condition to allow this limited purpose outside ceremony under the specific conditions that you will hear this evening or at a future hearing date uh part of the request there is the inclusion of sound attenuation walls that are part of the plan set there's a sound attenuation wall to the South the west and the north of the lawn area and Patio area that I just described along the northwest corner as as well as the inclusion of a audio limitation device so any Amplified sound will be subject to a sound limiter anybody that came to play music by way of a violin or other instrument that would be Amplified would have to connect to that house system which would be locked regulated at a certain level so we made sure we maintain certain decimal levels at the property lines uh part of the presentation that you will hear this evening any subsequent hearing engineering testimony architecture testimony operational testimony landscape testimony testimony from an acoustical engineer about how the sound attenuation walls and the sound amplification limiter function and what the achieve what the results are that are achieved from a deciel limitation uh that will be derived from that system and then finally planning testimony uh for this evening depending on what time permits we first have engineering testimony from Harry tuell our civil engineer and then Steve Lazarus our architect and then finally Joseph IMR uh Imani the operator to go through the operational uh particulars relative to these elements that I just discussed U as the board secretary mentioned we had noticed for the May meeting we were uh unable to to attend that evening and it was carried without further notice to this evening uh we have over the last few months certainly AE appreciate the board's patience with the application being carried on several occasions uh Mr amrani has made a a excellent effort to meet with the neighborhood and we have on probably a three or so occasions met with groups of neighbors to understand their concerns with existing operational issues and the proposal before the board this evening uh and we're hopeful that a lot of the plan amendments that you see before you uh have addressed a majority if not all of those concerns That's essential a summary of the application Mr chairman if there are no procedural questions of me I can have Mr Tel warning go through the CLE please please do Mr chairman uh before we proceed um just to confirm the application was amended the plans were amended and it's complete just for the record there's jurisdiction proced Mr capy before you start with your witness do you want to have any exhibits for him so we don't interrupt him certainly Mr the you how many exhibits you have that's a colorized version of the site plan you have there on the easel that will probably be my only I call that A1 fine is there what is what are we calling it is a site the colorized version of the site plan is that correct Harry that's correct it's a colorize version of sheet three of the set that you have okay let's swear Mr tallan as as well as the burrow engineer and the burrow planner gentleman do you swear or affirm that the testimony will given this proceeding shall be to s be done yes I do the record reflected Mr Tel has been sworn as has Mr scrael the borrow engineer Mr zel the B Mr Z the B thank you Mr re Mr Jal before you begin your testimony can you give the board the benefit of your qualifications please yes I'm a uh licensed professional engineer Mr capy he's previously been just for purposes of the audience of it's right we can just okay save your time I'm licensed professional engineering state of New Jersey for over 40 years um I've appeared before this this board before and other boards numerous planning and zoning boards in uh Bergen Hudson fa counties I have a bachelor's and MERS of Science degrees in civil engineering from the New Jersey Institute of Technology license you're still in good standing yes I just renewed for three more years there you go thank you Mr zuel chair I believe he can be being qualified in the field of civil engineering thank you Mr re Mr Tel can you tell us a little bit about the existing site please just to give us the benefit of the lot location it size and so forth yes you know Ulan Manor formally I think for many people forly known as Colonial manner has been uh in in existence for I think since the 19 50s here in Old Jaan it's located on the Westerly side of of Orangeburg Road it is located in u the ra25 Zone which is which is a residential Zone it it's a site of U of just over over three acres uh where the the zoning only requires a half of an acre and and what that would be for residential use so it is a large um large property of course lending itself to to the use that it's uh that it's uh here been used for uh the uh property is accessed from from Orangeburg road with a driveway of approximately uh uh 90 ft and then it opens up uh into the um uh a park currently has a parking area in the front of the building and then the building is itself is about 14,000 square ft and there is a parking area uh in the rear in in the rear of of the building um that that's the existing condition what what is shown here on the on the uh proposed um before we get to the proposed would you do you have an existing conditions sheet you can take us to yes I I I actually do it's it's it's in the set but I also have one underneath there that that is mounted if you wouldn't mind just so we can appreciate some that A2 please tell me the sheet number A1 was sheet three the TV Mr capy could we um get uh this uh presentation on our TV screen so that the uh my office did provide a PDF of the submitt to the board so we could certainly bring that up I think we it would be uh helpful for uh our audience to be able to participate and as well as some of our laptop with here I don't have a laptop um I have an iPad I don't know if I can broadcast it from this I know I don't know thank you Miss um I'm not sure yes we are thank you do you have HDMI on that can you plug in or no no we do have a laptop here okay I can see if I can just trying to find the email with the files just give me one second Mr chairman is it all right if I just make a quick phone call [Music] they so small see you mind putting them out on table Yeah so I can to I some more right good sorry just grabing something on my back there yeah down here just may take a few moments Mr chairman having somebody email me those two files you want to say that on Thum Drive I don't have it available with me I'm having somebody email it to me because I have it on my I I don't want people if the secretary emailed you a copy of my [Music] everybody only the first p is col finish this thing by Labor Day hoping by Christmas um you you are marking A2 the existing conditions which is sheet two of the cycl r pay no attention to them right thank you Mr chairman so we're back on the record so so Harry we were talking about the existing conditions at the site yes um you had gone through the particulars of the property itself and a general explanation of the improvements can you show us with your indicator about the location of the access point the building Etc okay as I had mentioned um this is sheet two uh existing conditions plan as I had mentioned the building uh is roughly in the in the center in the center of the site the existing bank with facility and as I mentioned to you there's a uh a driveway that comes up from Orangeburg Road there's a uh relatively small parking area located in the front and then there is uh the parking area for for U occasions uh and events in in in the rear So currently uh people uh drive up the uh for for an event that requires a valet parking which is usually uh I I think uh Mr Amani can confirm that but I think it's for over a hundred a an a an event of over a 100 people they uh they drop their car off uh in the corner in the corner of the building and there's usually signage that it's either self- parking or valet parking so in the case of valet parking they drop their car off at the end and um at just where the uh driveway meets the building uh they they get out of their cars and valet takes the car and Parks it and then they there's a walkway to the front door and that's how uh the uh the facility is is accessed uh for self- parking events uh people Park in the they drive up the driveway proceed to the rear parking area and then get out of their vehicles and there is an AC way from the the rear of uh the facility into into the building so U Harry that's the current what's the distance from the valley drop off point to the main entrance it's um I would say it's a u from the valet point to the main entrance it's approximately uh 75 to 80 ft thank you and that's the the the access path there there's a walk that connects the valley drop off point to the main entrance that's correct thank you as far as the improvements that are on the Northerly side of the property can you describe that for us please in in terms of uh the paved area Okay C currently uh there is a u a paved uh pavers area located of of approximately 6,300 Square ft of favers that is currently in the Northerly portion of the property is that what you were referring to yes sir and is there a portion of that that that leads to the northwest corner of the site yes and can you tell us the utilization of the of that area that area is is Curr is used for outdoor ceremonies thank you and that was constructed uh in roughly 2020 yes during during uh Co thank you any anything else about existing improvements that are particular to the site yeah uh no that's that's basically the uh in terms of parking and uh access that's that's the uh the current current operation thank you so turning to what's proposed if we can start with the expansion of the cocktail room okay [Music] okay so what's uh what's proposed is shown um in light gray shading uh and is also shown on sheet three of the plans you have which which we're showing a 720 uh Square ft uh building enclosed building addition uh to be an expansion uh an addition additional 720 sare ft uh to the cocktail room excuse me I just want to make sure does the uh audience see the uh oh yeah there you go everybody can see that it's sufficient good let do maybe need to zoom out a little bit like zone out a little yeah here you go a little bit more little more little B okay yeah I think I got to charge extra for this well somebody's got to pay there you go got to get on the Des fee for this thing I think it's going to use up more of your client's money the laser pointer doesn't work on the screen it's all right I'll I'll indicate it here the the 720 foot is that a single story Edition yes is that area fully enclosed that will be fully enclosed yes can you describe the setbacks the side and front yard setbacks for us under the proposed condition to that element U there'll be there'll be no uh you know that will meet any front yard setback that does not change uh there's no variance created by that by that addition very good so it complies with the side yard setback requirement yes it doesn't increase I'm sorry the side yard set back a correction there is a variance it relates to the D2 from the bulk variance perspective correct just from a bulk variance perspective it's comping with side darkart seta requirement it it me it's it's it doesn't ex exacerbate the current U sge condition which is um which which which we which we meet the uh the requirement is is 10 and 35 ft and we will we will be at 31 and uh 80s five combined yes so a single side yard set back requirements of 10 yes and a combined side yard of 35 that's correct for both sides this element is how far off the souly side yard it's 30 35 ft off the subway thank you very much the dimension is shown on the thank you I think you just for so this portion is really taking up some of the the uh the space that was used for the walkway going into the front door that's correct right that's where the that new proposed extension is going to be built it's part of what would have been when the people Dro people off instead of having just a a pathway there you're going to have an extended build extension to the building right that's correct Mr Tel turning to the port crocher can you describe that element for us I know Mr lazarous will go through it from an architectural perspective yeah yes we're showing it in in plan view uh the current entrance will have a pcare built above it so that U uh for the circular driveway U people will be able to uh uh be dropped off uh at of at the valet and or dropped off under the pter cair so that they will not be subject to any of the any of the elements which they currently are subject to the elements at the current drop off point when when it's a r when it's a rainy night uh you when you currently drop drop off EV with LA you have to pop your umbrella to walk the the 80 ft to the to the building entrance this will be certainly a lot more of a desirable configuration this is occurring D directly proximate to the existing main entrance yes it's built currently it's right above the existing the existing main entrance does not change thank you can you provide us with the dimensions of the port crer please I I would uh I should have that on the plan the port of CER is is uh 950 Square ft uh total it is um a 40 ft 40 ft wide uh 40 ft Deep by um about 20 ft wide 24t wide I'm sorry thank you Mr Tel and as we continue East we we have a bit of a patio area is that the water waterfall feature that's correct the water there's there's an area a landcape area in the in that will be grass and the waterfall feature uh extends and you'll see certainly uh I've seen renderings from from Mr Lazarus which will show you a much clearer depiction of that what that area will look like thank you the the new uh circular driveway if you can discuss that please yeah that's certainly a a major uh major feature of this application uh the current uh driveway um the current parking area that exists uh in in the front of about 7500 sare ft um will be replaced by a circular uh driveway in pavers and as as you see on on the plan it will be 24 ft wide allowing for uh two vehicles uh to pass each other so that there is so that there'll be no U major or backups uh as as you U exit your vehicle and if there's any for any reason a car gets uh stop for any in any event the design is such that two cars can pass cars can pass each other there's no single take a breath for moment so so you have a pass by Lane is that what you want to suggest that's that's a good way of putting it's a a pass bypass lane thank you thank you Mr tuel and so the you had that 24t width continues its way around the entire circular portion of the circular driveway that's correct thank you uh as far as some of the areas to the south of that that that's just a connection point between the existing driveway and the new circular driveway where I'm indicating here on the screen yes correct that's that's approximately where the existing parking area was and that's just uh an area where the uh it'll be one way one way around the driveway circular driveway in that area will be uh two-way traffic and that's just uh the way we designed it so the the the inclusion of this element would this eliminate the queuing that presently occurs along the south side of the property uh it's certainly a much more efficient uh configuration a much more efficient way of uh discharging uh the uh passengers from their vehicles does it provide for a larger queuing area as well so that Vehicles can stack now within the circular driveway as opposed to along the South oh certainly yes thank you turning to the north portion of the property now the the existing patio along the north that we had discussed a moment ago we have now a different configuration in that area yes that area that those papers will be removed and uh the uh the grass area restored except for a 6t wide pathway from the uh from the existing building to a an area for for outdoor ceremonies and uh we show a path uh to an area of sort of a patio or area that a stage area that will be used for for the actual ceremonies thank you and can can you tell us the uh overall impervious coverage how much it's being increased over the last application of 2013 uh it would be increased by 10,119 square ft and what is that way to from a percentage standpoint from a percentage standpoint it we're we're going from we're going to be going as as I show on sheet on sheet three from total total impervious of uh we're going from the uh from from 60.7 2% which is existing the the um that's not the the 53.7 was the previously approved percentage and currently existing is 6.72% and 6.72 to 61.3% correct but the the 60.72 is is not a number that um that that's as a result of the patio that was constructed number that's correct that's correct 61 what 76 so it's going from 5 that's the new or that's the old 6176 6176 is the new number no 6 no 61.3 is the new number so what was the 53.7 53.7 it was the 20 what 2013 approval the previous approval it does not account for the uh pavers that were installed that we now that we're now removing right So So currently it's 60.72 that's right currently it's 60.7 and it's going to go to 6176 correct your your plan that I have shows a 6176 number I I had that it's in the zoning table that was okay I see that you have that must be the I don't know what the revision date on this one is the that's the May 19th plan 21st that's that's the 5 21 sorry that's the most current I don't know I'm sorry I apologize for that but I have 61.3 on my on my plan I don't know how that I don't know how that how that tyo occurred I'm sorry I don't know how that we'll have to get a clarification on that Mr chairman before the next meeting as to the the build in coverage number no I I'm I'm fairly certain it is the 61.3 I don't know how that how we how that occurred not a problem Mr we'll reconcile recile it later it's a tiny change the last element to discuss Mr toell I know the acoustical Engineers going to discuss the yes functionality of the sound attenuation walls but if you can just discuss the location of the walls and their heights for us please okay so uh as as I just re just described there is going to be a an outdoor area uh reduced from the existing of showing a 6ot wide pathway connecting to a ceremony area that area will be enclosed by U an area of of UE the area in front or at towards the bottom of there that will be 72 ft of 12T barrier and then uh around the the the rest of the perimeter of that it will be 216 ft of 8ft wall and that is per U design by the acoustical uh expert and can you proide us with the offsets to the of the wall to the to the north west and south please yes to to the uh to the north uh the wall will be uh about 3 and 1/2 ft off the property line and to the West please so the West again that's not shown entirely on that on that drawing it would have to be a combined um you know that that's you know that would be well in excess of uh that would be about 125 ft hold on this let me uh confirm that please yes that would be about 125 ft from from the west and the offset of the South again the offset to the South is the is the area of the um of is the back of the building which is where the the parking area is and again that's a that's a rather large area of uh that's about 150 ft to the South thank you Mr tuell there are some open technical comments on the drainage design that Mr Grable has advised you all correct yes and so we're not going to get into a discussion on drainage this evening we'll Reserve that for the next hearing because we recognize we do have some housekeeping items just to address with Mr stra so between now and the next meeting we'll be addressing those open technical comments and we'll be prepared to have a conversation on drainage at that next meeting I don't have any further questions for Mr to Mr chairman okay um I have U I have one question about the uh the circular driveway and the cars going in you're supposed to start I know but I'm just going to ask my uh one thing that was uh I was concerned about is with the cars that are driving into this circular driveway and making a circle back to the building it's going to be um not just sound involved in uh and I know that the sound is not your you know expertise but there's going to be light and cars driving in that direction is there anything that's being proposed that has anything to do with the light the the car lights that are going to be shining on the properties he'll tell you there's a uh Mr Paul Keys our landscape architect we have created essentially a landscaping burm in in this area on the screen in this area there's going to be a BM with Landscaping okay that will help uh Shield the vehicle lights from our neighbor to the north and we're also enhancing the buffer along the Northerly property line so the as well as there's existing fencing but we've created a a raised uh Landscaping bed to Shield the vehicle lights from our neighbor to the north okay but we don't see that necessarily on this particular portion of the plan correct it's on the Landscaping plan okay that's okay so I think we're going to probably start with our professionals down on the other end of the deis uh Tom just a couple couple quick ones um I agree with Mr capizzi that we're not in a position to really discuss drainage yet so um we should defer that to a subsequent meeting um and as we realized when Mr Tel was going through his testimony there's a few square feet kicking around here that we'll figure out as far as the impervious coverage percentage goes it's not a real significant number um and I think I understand where your numbers come from but I just want to make sure the public understands so the 60.72 existing percent coverage includes the northern patio even though that was not previously approved yes but I you know I I wanted to present it as openly as possible to show you that right now it's there no I agree that that was the right thing to do I just don't want people to think that you are at 60 and you're not also considering this other 6,000 square ft um so the number would theoretically be greater under existing conditions I I'm just trying to clarify that um so the 60.72 or whatever that exact number is is reflects current site conditions today yes yes okay but not necessarily approved yet well this approval no I mean on the 6.72 60.72 it's that has not been approved yeah it was really 53.7 is a the last approved uh from 2013 right correct we acknowledge the application to R viewed as comparing the existing condition of 53.7 correct versus the new number of 61 right whatever that but you're making a reference to the current conditions even though that hasn't necessarily it hasn't been approved yet as part of any app and that existing feature is coming out by right okay some of it right so this the 60.7 is exists today but in reality if the application is to proceed to an approval that number doesn't exist anymore never really matters you're going from as you said point the earlier number 53 53 we we do have a notation on our vault table recognizing the existing condition as it stands in the field today as well as the condition that it should be right at 53 and change and the the pap the concrete Pap area will not be open perious papers as per this current design correct that's correct all right just there is a notation in your Legend where you're calling it perious SL perious papers should just probably remove that because it's it's a little confusing as you know Mr scel we had considered in a previous version using Herby's papers apparently that was left over from there right but that that's not the plan now which I think is a good thing um one of the concerns was a lot of people getting in and out of their cars there um with open spaces between papers to allow water through U for a drainage point from a drainage perspective it might be a good thing but from a people walking around traffic perspective I think that was a real not a good idea so the perious papers concept is out just so the board understands that these will be normal tight joint concrete Pap anybody can walk on Tom what is the um the uh I guess the distinction between what you call impervious coverage and pervious pavers just for that for maybe for clarification what is the what would be the difference or the identification of what that means you get a lot of different definitions depending on who you ask um perious pavers are wider open joints sandfield joints so the water can go through um as opposed to normal concrete papers have maybe an that little eighth of an inch nub on it that you put up against one another and then you broom sand into the joints which eventually becomes impervious over a short period of time uh in one case it counts towards the um the uh the use of uh impervious coverage versus it not being if they're perious is that the the perious cover the perious papers would or would not be included in uh in the Ulta pans ordinance only gives you credit for the actual openings so if you really want to get a deduction or a reduction in your coverage you've got to use those open grass pavers where maybe 50 60% of the actual area is open um that's not what was really being proposed either so there wasn't going to be a reduction in the coverage number it was just being used for store waterer management purposes okay good thank you and this I realize this is not related to your testimony Harry but um just to give you guys a heads up when the acoustical engineer comes in I think it's really important for this board to see an actual sample of that wall so we know what the materials look like uh there is a detail on the drawings but it's just it's really difficult to discern what it's going to look like in real life and that's what I have okay sorry can I follow up on the the sound wall one more time um and this is really for the board I think the Board needs to determine what you're going to consider that sound wall is it a accessory structure is it a fence um because there would be different variances required for it I believe if it's a fence you just need a variance for the height correct if it's a structure you need a variance for the setback well if we consider it a wall um wall then you probably don't need anything well we'll have to look into that yeah I looked at it as a fence which that's what I thought also and then you would just need a height well we get more information from the acoustical engineer maybe we can make that determination later just just a heads up that's all I had again thank you Tommy you're referring to the height being what's being proposed as being or 10 ft it's n and a half I think yeah and it's shown on the site plan as 12 feet along the Northerly property line 12T along the South South South oh on the South Side I'm Sor 12T 9 this is a propos continuation W that's something on the south side correct okay were you referring to the north side Tom at this yes the north side which is along the property line if you're going to consider that a fence I think we only allow six right we only allow six that's eight it's only going to be eight not 10 that's eight along that area correct along the north and the West it's 8 fet in height but we need to have approval for the variance variance right right and I don't think the ordinance [Music] has any I don't think our ordinance says only fences along the property line could be a certain height fences in general uh just say fence section 25573 no fence shall exceed 6 feet in height above the normal gr elevation so you need the variance for the 12 again the this this height of the walls is specifically designed by the acoustical engineer you need a certain height of wall in order to achieve a certain reduction in decel level so yeah now I'm not trying to say it's a bad idea no I'm just explaining why where the Genesis of the 12 and 8 came from okay that's all I had thank you okay next John yeah I just had a quick question the patio that's to be removed it's going to be replaced with a paver walkway that leads back to an area there where presumably there will be ceremonies chairs will be set up correct that will be on lawn area yes okay what happens if there's a storm event and it's soggy and I guess that's an operational issue Mr old that's because they'll be sitting in Grass which is not a problem except during Clement times but we we'll deal with that operationally I I have nothing else Mr chairman you're up okay um I see in the in the parking lot that you have up front now that there is a handicap parking uh with your turnaround here there is no parking at all so where does that handicap parking get moved to it it will get moved to the rear so you're moving it further away from the front entrance of the building it will it will be in the rear parking area yes okay but but certainly uh someone could discharge a a wheel chair at at under the Portico it's still better than than the current uh configuration all right now your the radius of this turnaround I'm seeing is is uh 44 ft you takeen into consideration of all types of vehicles that can make that turn yes we uh we we actually put a template of a 40 foot limo on that which I and I on this exhibit I have a 30 foot limo because I thought 40 foot was too much so we put a it can it could we have put a template of a 40ft limo on that okay is a pretty long limo have you considered anything else like such as emergency vehicles who need to access the front of the building because right now as it stands they'll be going up the driveway and then they can pull into the current parking lot with no issue this turnaround because there is a similar turnaround like this somewhere else in town that does have issues with emergency vehicles especially um fire department well in the event of there certainly the rear parking area could be accessed the rear of the building could be accessed by fire apparatus of course and uh I think that uh in the event of of a a fire U they would just pull up on the on the outside and and fight the fire that way whe whether a hook if I cannot tell you that a hook and ladder truck can make that turn all right um my concern no you can't M um my concern is if uh emergency vehicle ambulance or fire especially fire if it War tried to make this turn and got stopped just shy of this turnaround would they be blocking the driveway for further access to the back for additional fire apparatus or would they also be blocking exit it for the patrons who are trying to leave the facility I I don't think if even if a hooking ladder pulls up on the on the right side of the U of the turnaround it will not be blocking any any apparatus from going to the rear you have you have a lot of a lot of space there they even would have you know in the case it was dire emergency they could even pull up onto the lawn area not not exactly best practices there um I don't know if you covered it but how tall is this ptical what is the clearance of it um I I I I would defer I think I know but I would defer to the uh we just spoke about that recently as a matter of fact but I would defer to the architect on that okay I think it was around 12T something like that but okay I would defer to him on that okay I'm I'm not an advocate one way or another but I would think that the emergency vehicle pulled in it probably doesn't have to go to the right and go around it could probably just pull straight in on the left hand side but that just I'm just thinking depending on depending on circumstances of I'm not fire I'm not in the fire department I would defer that to I esteemed colleague ex toate Mike you're up I know he is all right piggy back on that question at the ptico P how do you say it porch P call porch if it's high enough you can get get the fire apparatus through number two you can't park on grass it's just not going to happen with the fire truck so I withdraw that that's out um Tommy does raise a concern about the the turn you really don't want to fight from the far right part to get to the building because you're you're wasting 5060 ft of 100 foot ladder to go over the grass the waterfall and other driveway so I would definitely dive into Tom's question about the radius for the turns of the as you call the hook and ladder because you also have to have the stabilizers come out to put the ladder up so if this doesn't change firefighting ability over existing conditions I'm just throwing answer that ad I just want I I I I just want to make the existing facility doesn't have the ability for a hook and ladder truck to circulate and this won't change that no it has ability in the front parking lot but front parking lot is of the same width as what is existing to the south side of the circular driveway yes but there's not Landscaping in the center of that parking lot where you can go right down the center the parking lot doesn't exist where the waterfall feature is proposed it is Al the so the new waterfall is not in the existing parking lot that that's uh it's it and the current parking lot approximately sh just at the bottom of that where I show The Green Island of where the where the waterfall is that's where the about where the existing parking lot ends okay okay and now my concern is also um I don't know who had said it but we have other structures in town that have actually been hit by regular cars uh if this was be to accepted I would like to see uh the the safety polls Tom could probably elaborate on those no I'm sorry Mr scrable could elaborate more on the concrete poles that go in front of the columns and the cor modss bards b o l l a r d yeah yeah okay ballards ballards I would like to see ballards by both columns by the corner of the new uh proposed Edition and then uh along the I guess West Side before you go down the driveway along the property line um I've just seen too many accidents with drunk drivers doing everything so if if going to be improved I like to see some kind of safety uh for buildings and stuff and the the I guess the house that would be I don't know whose house that would be but the house [Music] okay that's it you're done I'm done than okay Nikki you're done um so the port ofer it comes out to the center where that water future is correct it kind of extends over the two the two um you see the columns there the two black yeah two it's that those are the columns that support the ptic share or the Portico whatever you want to call yes I don't I don't see any emergency vehicles going up that way because you've got this whole you know you've got the water feature you've got this whole structure um in front of you is the water feature something that's going to be running all the time is that is that um is it a wall with you know like a fountain or is it a spray or the architect is going to elaborate on that okay um I want have one other question does the I have two actually the outdoor area the ceremony area is that going to have some kind of structure over it a Pergola uh a canopy a gazebo or is this just completely open as far as I know it's going to be completely open there there may I you know a florist made decorated uh or something like that I don't know just on a permanent on a permanent basis structure no permanent structure and then the last uh question limited purpose I think Mr KES mentioned in in his opening statement limited purpose outside ceremony what does that mean limited purpose I limited purpose outside activities is exclusively to the ceremonies okay that's limiting factor right won't be used for any other purpose other than the ceremonies no ding no no cocktail all right thank you that was all I have okay B yeah I had a few questions um the extension for the cocktail room um I thought I heard that the capacity would not increase so that's just a room to make things more comfortable and appropriate for these events correct so the seating for the building is tabulated based upon the number of seats within the main dining area Okay so unchanged correct um and then I'm it sounds like the Portico share whatever we want to call it everything except porch um that's there for enhancing the drop off experience especially in the climate weather you did indicate though that only valets exist um for 100 or more guests so other than dropping people off um most of the events that are under 100 is still going to be self-parked in the rear of the building right that's correct and is there anything there that covers uh the people coming into the entrance or is that open to the elements when they walk from the parking area in the rear to the main entrance there's no cover okay so then the true experience benefit is mostly for events with more than a 100 people mostly for weddings yes well or okay but no weddings more than a 100 people then Mr R will speak to to the operation the attendance associated with typical events and so okay that's all I have all right uh I have a suggestion more than a question actually there is in front at the entrance there is a paved area on Orangeburg Gro I think it's about maybe 12 foot wide it's a paved area uh and you consider it like converting that to you know previous area that will help you with your calculations I don't know if uh I'm explaining it correctly is that Theo area no no on Orange on Orangeburg Road it's like a bump out looks almost like a long parallel parking spot correct yes that's that's exactly been curved and paved I think the limos might wait there oh that's that's the purpose for the limos is that what it's for to do you know I don't know is that correct it's a limo queuing yes okay I always wondered you know what is that for so I have no further questions Mike um two questions one is um a calculation on potential chairs for the outdoor space like what that what that area can hold for the outdoor uh wedding ceremonies well there there have been wedding ceremonies out there and I'm sure Mr Ronnie can answer that question okay and then uh okay and then the second question I guess Dov tailes more operationally as well but I would assume if you're booking um for outow weddings and there's inclement weather look at the option as you would propose to put a tent outside we've never proposed a tent outside so if there was rain and there was a well I'm bringing this up for a reason because I'm thinking about if it's raining and you have so somebody books a wedding planning on having an outdoor ceremony there's rain in the forecast would you put that wedding inside or would you put a tent outside that's my question we'll have Mr answer that and I'm looking at it from like a drainage perspective because you have a huge tent and it's pouring for a day or two and waterers pouring in the neighbor's yard that would be an unhappy neighbor I'm just bringing that up for that's all even if we even if we did have such a covering would be 50 ft at least many adjacent properties there would be no shielding of water onto the adjacent property maybe I'm talking about you're talking about in the ceremony area but the ceremony area yeah we'll have um mrani address that okay that's John yes with regard to the handicap parking to the rear of the building um if that if that's established to the rear of the building will there be a handicapped entrance to accommodate the those that new park back in the whe you'd have to address that Mr I I I do there are ways of getting in from the rear of the building so we would designate an entrance there there are doors at the rear of the building I I know that for a fact and those would be used for hand are there ADA Compliant issue those I I think they're they're at grade I don't think there's any there's I think I believe they're pretty much at grade I don't think that we would certainly uh confirm that well we'll have Mr La speak to [Music] that through the rear and they wouldn't be able to park in the front and and have accessibility with their wheelchairs or whatever from the front I also think that the concern of Tom and Mike about the U emergency vehicles and the Portico that come comes out and the height of that uh that has to be something that should be addressed to make sure that uh it's sufficient for the fire department to approve the the construction of that and the access of the trucks even if they did have to pull in straight in One Direction because if obviously they pulled in around and and came around uh the radius they'd still be pulling in through the front which just means they just pointed in a different direction but I think that their concern about the fire uh the um the emergency vehicles is is something that has to be looked at and and I think that you guys have to address that with with our uh Representatives yes yeah actually um as far as what you were just saying about parking there's going to be no allowable parking within this turnaround correct no and no queuing of limousines in this turnaround no correct okay just want to confirm that thank you we'll have a fire safety on our end reach out to the fire chief and work through these issues okay I did notice that what you had said is that the current uh condition of the property um the uh the fire uh or emergency vehicles would not be able to pull all the way up in front of the front door as it exists I just they wouldn't be able to circulate in the manner which we're discussing right but but currently they even the parking lot that exists there doesn't allow a truck to move forward all the way to the front to the middle of the front door it's short of that so this allows this proposal allows a truck to pull more forward and actually more forward even up to the north side of the building if if necessary with with a with some kind of uh Hardscape right if the just brainstorming ideas if the fire department wanted to have the ability to circulate in other instances we used grassy pavers that sit underneath the lawn area that can support the weight of a fire truck so that if they do need to circulate there is disability within the lawn area to accommodate the weight of the fire truck and to to at least maneuver to uh a more extent than what would be provided by the P area but we'll okay I just I think that that's important that you address that and uh John's concern about access to the uh from the rear of the building yes for handicap uh patot okay uh Bob do we open up for the public at this point everyone on the board is everyone on the board satisfied with their questions there public for questions good we'll open this uh questions of the witness only questions for the uh okay engineer uh open to the public anyone wish to come forward please do just want to introduce myself and oh no you have to come forward we need your name and address uh Brett Ley and we live at six car Court which is the whole north side of the matter okay right so am I supposed to like oppose I'm not going to sit in question questions for this particular so right now where I don't think that that patio is there right now it's because the ceremonies that you've been having illegally are not that close to my property they seem to be a little bit more south is that true no that that is there's the existing conditions plan so where where's the existing I I basically located that uh area exact where that ceremony area in the in that corner in that North West Corner can you highlight the the rubble wall cu the rubble wall is on both drawings existing conditions and proposed that's right so this is more or less up against the rubble wall within a couple feet so now you look at the look at the other drawing so where's my wall where's the fence this is the black this black line is the kindon one and you're so you're basically how how far is that patio from my pence from it's your fence that put that that's my property so is that like 3 ft I would say from the fence it's probably four or five that's really close to my property and he's been having ceremonies out there and it's been really loud illegally just so my my history here that I was years ago just di mention here that we can't hear testimony now it has to be oneit the questions so yeah I'd like to know why is that 3 feet is that that seems a little too close and that should not be 3 ft from my father you need to move that no oh you is that legal rep just give him he's asking the offset of the pay ceremony area to the property line yes there there is a row of our provides separating um at the property line and there is approximately 3 and 1/2 ft to the to the property line from that Row from that row of arraes which is all which is about another uh foot or so away from that um from from that Rubble wall that Mr scrael pointed out that existing Rubble wall so would be so it's probably around 5T 4 and a half to 5T is that within legal parameters having a ceremony to a property um I'd like to ask Tom something Tom is that is is it going to be that the current condition of where it is now which you're claiming is is in illegal uh Pao as it exists um is this one going to be the same distance from the property line as as it was as it is currently but not yet approved well again if you go back to the other drawing I think the pre-existing patio is just off of this wall yeah there's maybe half a foot here okay a foot at this end there's probably four feet here so they're actually moving the they're filling this they're filling that in right okay so it's a couple feet closer but there is no setback for a patio there's no there's no ordinance setback for a patio no right but but for purposes of um identifying this as an issue for a neighbor um would could it make sense for them to move the the patio approximately a number of feet for 4 to 6 ft to make it a total of 10 ft into the property and just expand the south side of it a little bit wider so that you're just basically moving it a little further away to accommodate the uh neighbor is that a question yes well am ask that's absolutely possible well is it it's possible to do that correct okay um and then we would probably I would probably be interested in asking the the uh applicant uh if that is something that you might be willing to consider moving the patio footprint a little bit further away from the neighbor's property to give him a additional space between his property line and uh and the existing patio that it ex that that's stand we'll certainly consider that and see what we can do to address that remember the sound wall is also going that was be my question is it is it the site that um you and your wife don't like or the sound the sound the sound so can we I'm going to ask you if you want to wait till the my next question wait till the sound barrier guy comes up and maybe that answer that question can be answered with him or her I'm sorry i' like to know also and you guys were questioning whether it is a fence which is only allowed to be like a certain height that the sound barer would be or if it's a it's a wall then it can go up even higher and they can more straber right so I just want I don't think it's going to be one of those Highway sound barriers we we have to wait till the the sound barrier I think that was my question just to clarify it I was just trying to nail down what variances they might need for a larger sound wall not that they should shorten it necessarily they have to give testimony to support the variance obviously that's what this board does but I wasn't suggesting that they make it shorter I was just saying that it was probably probably a variance that they need to obtain from this board I think tall taller is better as long as it looks good and and makes the ne I think they can certainly cover Shrubbery in my personal opinion toer is better if you like the way it looks we like the way it looks and it serves its purpose but that's just my opinion we get to that okay um the other question if I move you have another question let me go back to the circular driveway so right now the way that it currently is cars just drive straight up on the south side to basically get dropped off at that door and then the the valy they par themselves in back so all the light is going straight m now they want to have a circular driver I know that you address the light pollution that I would get being on the North side and then my also my neighbor on the east side and then these neighbors here are all on the South Side so now everyone's getting all this extra light and I know that they want to add all this extra Shrubbery and I guess that will help but I think it you it would still flicker through and it would be really annoying at night especially when we you know all have to work during the week in the city and you have a question sir my question is will that will you be able to really cover the light with the Shrubbery all around and protect all of us we'll have testimonies from our landscape AR speak to that okay and then the other question is since it's a double uh two cost go can pass through all all the way around and I know that you mentioned besides the light that you mentioned wouldn't cars idle there more and would that cause more pollution is that a question would that cause more pollution I ask that question I'm normally it will be one car at a time we're only designing it to be two cars wide in case uh for whatever reason there needs to be a bypass you just don't want a car to be trapped so normally it's going to be a a single Lane que dropping people off it will only in in the event of of a car getting stalled or for whatever reason there'll be the provision to bypass and then if there's like now that everyone uses Ubers and and everyone calls Ubers at the same time there's not going to be like 10 calls lining there just idling waiting for people to come out you don't think that would that cause extra pollution in our aood I think I it's either going to be idling up the driveway or around the circular driveway so I think that's almost a move point the amount of pollution um cuz I live around the corner on hering drive and when my wife makes me go for a walk I we we see the car because she loves weddings so we'll sit there so whether they're idling up the driveway or around the circular driveway whether it's 18 cars or 20 cars I don't think there's that much of a difference of pollution if you were adding 100 cars I would agree with you but I think shifting from here to here is really not that difference of a pollution aspect the vehicles are already coming to the site they well I think by having a circular driver like that gives people more of a reason just to idle and hang out a little bit longer as opposed to just getting your car going because it's that is the reason for people to hang out cigarettes but most of the people would be using a valet and the valet would keep The Cars Moving I mean if there's no party of less than the 100 and the people are parking in the back I guess they would pull up or walk out the front and say pick me up in the front right is what your point is is that people would still be get picked up in the front uh people might still wait you know as people are coming out slow pokes that want to say goodbye to everybody and and not leave and so their husband or or wife might be waiting in their car for a longer period of time um so I mean you're making a point um Mike's point is is that the people would be waiting in the in the driveway portion of the South part part of the property anyway uh I mean I've been there or in the parking lot area you pull in and try and get a little closer I personally disagree with that I think that this will this particle thing that they have is going to be more like a hangout area and people aren't going to be so quick and people can go out with cigarette brakes and smoke more cigarettes in the front so I I just kind of disagree I think it be more of a hang out area we be just hanging out there but that's my personal opinion okay so I'll move on so my other question is because I'm a little bit confused I your point is like perious and impervious um because right now they in 2013 they were granted to go to I think from like 40 to 53% then they illegally put the patio on the back and that went to 61 so I don't understand how adding a whole circular driveway adding another story putting maybe sound barriers only makes it go like 1% more is that am I not understanding that's yeah I I don't think I explained that very well that was the first question I asked the 60% 60.7 that's shown as the existing condition included includes that 6,000 foot patio right right that I understand that now is essentially being removed so all of the new stuff if you add 13,600 ft of concrete pavers plus the addition I plus the walkway 1,500 but then subtract out more or less the 6,000 that's legally there now that's where the difference comes from so even though they're still going to have that P just because they're using different type of Pap and not concrete that no it's just much smaller it's literally the size of it you see what we have there sir this is this is the closed patio it's just this area noted right now it's all this correct it's all this and then it comes over to here and this is much wi so are they are they limitting this this see this is the existing patio by your property right and that's significant portion of that is coming out and the left of the proposed condition but where the current waterfall is now which is around here right right this patio is remaining no that's out oh so that pass so that door that constantly opens and closes when we get a loud of loud of music and then people hang out smoke cigarettes is going to be eliminated no the door's still there patio is being on so people won't be opening and Clos I mean just have cigarettes well that's that's an activity that well they hang out there now cuz there's pavers there and there's a waterfall right and then last time we were there I met with Joseph they had like the cigarette stand there so that's where people constantly opening closing so they're tell me that is all going to be eliminated so there really won't be a reason for people to go out and SM that's not what I said sir the patio that's going to remain is what's shown on the screen not going to change the behavior it's not going to change maybe less an operational issue that needs to be discuss that we have to discuss that later um I think that's it thank you thank you oh I I'm sorry I'm sorry why were they refuse I just want to understand that I'm not that familiar with yeah those the two the two council members the class one and class three members of the board because it's a D2 it's a D2 variance is implicated expansive and unconforming use they cannot participate in that in that type of a proceeding because of the relief sought and Mr magio had to recuse himself he lives within 200 feet because he lives within 200 feet and therefore he might have a uh a certain opinion one way or another okay that's why we have the Kitty table right I see another member of our board here in the in the back Dave would you like to join us on the deis please out of difference I didn't want to interrupt the proceedings Tommy thank you for asking the questions that I would ask U I was going to come up there well you're welcome to come up right now nobody clap please he's very shy he shy when people clapped thanks Dave all right so uh we're opening up to the public to anyone else that would like to question our engineer not our engineer applicant's engineer okay please okay I just have a question about the turnaround because there are coach buses that sometimes drop people off so I just Googled it and a coach bus 12 T so I don't know if they saying how how high is the need to speak up it's 223 to the top perfect and the bottom is 146 great and with that Coach B you look to turn around we we have not that so the the clearance height to the bottom portion of the Portico is approximately 14 ft and Mr Lazarus 146 and Mr lus will confirm that during his testim okay and I just want to make sure that a coach bus could make the turn as well because they do drop you're not in the coach bus business are you no I'm not but I do have them idling behind my house try um and then so how many the um the the turnaround whole so that whole darker gray part that's yes how many square feet is that or how much additional square feet is that because the square foot is not doesn't seem to be I don't adding up I guess in my own mind well I understand the patio that is illegal is 6,000 ft right but you also have to remember that approximately a little Le less than half of what the circular driveway is now is is existing parking lot and driveway as well so what is additional the net additional is around 5,500 square feet just for the parking area for the just right just that area okay and then um but also does the overhang uh is that also considered coverage yes so and that's included in the 5500 yes okay it's well it's not double counted of course in terms of impervious coverage because I have building coverage and I have uh the pavers so I don't count it TW I didn't count it twice I have the overhang of the Portico so that so it's not it's not double counted so 55 the 5,000 565 is the net amount okay and we're getting rid of about 6,000 ft in the back we saying about 6700 ft and then the new um room added on is that how many square feet that's um uh 720 Square ft oh that's it so okay all right I just that was it I just had a question about the buses because I know that they okay uh is there anyone else in the public please come on up here the lady six Caren court so I just wanted to ask when it comes to the outdoor ceremonies where exactly can you just explain to me exactly where it's going to be held in the area where it's presently occurring allbe on a smaller patio area so it's going to be in the front of the Mana in the area where it's presently occurring in the Northwest Corno okay um and how much square footage does that take up that's about it's about a 35t 36t diameter the entire PA walkway and and that uh uh ceremony area is 1,517 square ft ft that I show that I show on the plan I I could calculate the circular the semicircular um I could give you I could get a separate calculation for just that area but the entire area is 15 1,517 okay you might have said this before and I'm sorry if I missed it but sure how long like TimeWise like how long the C money supposed to last outside Mr will speak to that but it's approximately 45 minutes and now I hear that there're going to be there could be two Outsource ceremonies per day is that Mr Armani will speak that yes okay okay but I want to make sure I understand it that's currently happening but is it currently not approved based on our ordinances it's only not approved because a permit was never taken yeah okay nonform so we're talking about it as though it's a given that's not yet to be there's specific condition that prohibits outdoor activity and ceremonies and they're seeking to amend to extend the condition that's part of the application is that part of our application the application that the applicant present that we are allowing them to uh have outdoor that's what they're requesting there's a condition that restricts that activity and not just one but two is it or is it just an it was an absolute ban on outdoor activity then you put a number just can't do it now they're seeking to have that toate that condition correct in my application in my public notice it was very descriptive correct as to the limited request for an outdoor ceremony M the duration of the ceremony the times of day by which it would conclude the area on the site in which it would occur and those kinds of parameters are all part of the application so we appreciate the fact uh of the sensitive nature of the request and that's why we were trying to be be as particular as possible The Limited nature of the request and I apologize had no intention of making no no no I I just wanted to make sure that the audience understood um that that was still a discussion item to be approved correct okay thank you you're welcome where is this so that patio will actually hold 300 people and a bride walking down no so what kind of ceremony you going to have out there will discuss the chairs so it's beer could could be a lot of PA just for like Nick chairs on the grass sorry will be chairs on the ground uh is there anyone else uh in the uh audience I'd like to come forward I don't see any oh we do Mr magio okay we swear of him right is that what takes place L swear telling nothing but the truth to help you Charles mag 30ri my first time ever speaking in front of a board so just be patient with please um and actually walk get aside um these questions are all follow-ups to the excellent questions that the esteem board and myute and very concerned neighbors have brought up none of these are original questions that I can take credit for so um first question is what I I heard the elaboration on the activities that are going to occur inside the additional 720 ft but can you elaborate on that just the cocktail room so it's the cocktail room that they have now it's just enlarged no additional tables no additional seats no additional people they'll be a be will be on the 296 permitted they will be cocktail tables in that 720t area which is essentially are to provide more El it's just an expansion okay um second regarding the circular driveway so there was a few different statements made about the circular driveway and um there was this question about right now people walk about 75 to 80 ft to get to the port cocher but if the circular driveway was installed you wouldn't be walking 75 or 80 ft once you got out of the door to get into the building you would probably be 10 10 or 20 ft would that negate the need for a port crochet it's a rhetorical question that should be considered well they don't have a they don't we don't have a port forare at present right and so the objective is so ter terms of in Clement weather the bride or groom and anybody entering the party even though it's 10 ft it's 10 ft less to walk in the rain or no right but the testimony was made that it was because it was 75 to 80 ft but it's not going to be 75 to only there was no testimony it was go back and listen to the there was no testimony time the P for share to an 80 foot walk there was a comment it's just another element of The Proposal sure um handicap parking also is an issue I that was brought up earlier I I would think that the board may want to ask to to demonstrate whether or not I don't know if that's a question that you're going to ask or not to demonstrate that there is a handicap accessible entrance in the back because to the point that I think it was Mr SC Bob made um I have that down as a note have it that needs to be addressed Mr Kramer raised that Mr Kramer that same with the emergency vehicles can I don't know if something you can request to have a layout a regarding traffic consultant it's going to it's going to be also one of the uh and then finally regarding Le's questions regarding um the dimensions for the he he he had a question that was asked that wasn't answered which is are there legal requirements for a patio distance from an adjacent yard I think Tom might Tom there are no there are no requirements for that a structure that would be on a patio yes but not the patio so even in business environment Tom even in I'm sorry business this is a business environment it's not a resal z yeah you've got to go with the the cone the code for the Zone 10 resal Z okay and so as part of the uh said there is there going to be a testimony made about a um about the issue about whether or not there'll be outdoor ceremony which is currently not allowed is there going to be any concern concerned about decibel level regarding that can that be addressed and how and how is that addressed they have an acoustical expert that will have to testify we provide the board with the acoustical report and the plan set illustrates sound attenuation walls so the acoustical report will address the level of sound that might come from ceremony assuming that the walls are approved at the right Heights so in summary the accusal report modeled 296 people outside in the area using and you'll hear from the expert directly loud voices which he'll describe what that means and with a decimal level is of that correct now keep in mind human voice is not regulated right the only thing that's regulated is Amplified sound so the sound I'm sorry it's music correct correct so what he what we had done by way of that modeling was generated anticipated sound essentially worst case scenario that when people would clap at the conclusion of the ceremony and maybe celebrate with you know the typical celebratory things that happen that was modeled in the report and then what was then we discussed what was necessary to bring that sound down uh to the state level to the South which was 65 Deb which is state level or um sound at a a prop so the combination of the sound ATT continuation walls and the sound the house audio system limiter were able to achieve that 65 de properly okay all thank you for explaining that's it that's all I have thank you [Music] Charlie uh do I see anyone else in the audience I do not so we're going to close that to the uh public next you have uh another witness yes Mr good I'd like to take a five minute break [Music] okay means no more Koke for you probably be another hour application some I Just Whipped it at you if you just would have waved AR architect [Applause] yes Prof Mee I do I'm good Mr how are you Harry oh you did I don't remember oh man yeah Fernando Marie no she's still there no kidding still the dance that never ends always he's going to retire at some point yeah I think so get a nice pension he been in the system long enough since he was in his had retired I heard how come I'm not still how come I'm not how come you still work I'm I should be re slowing down yeah you know you know the well the outdoor stuff everything else I mean it makes sense for Mak they're going to get worse [Music] all right Mr kaby our next this is Steve Lazarus our architect we swear or affirm that the testimony will given this proceed shall be I do for the record State SP uh Sten B Lazarus v e VN b as a boy Lazarus l a z a Ru and as I said Mr Lazarus has previously been here he's been qualified if you want to go through his credentials is still understanding yes it is thank you he's been qualified before this Bo Mr Lazarus if you can bring your PL set to the front of the eel please I think we're up to 8th right sorry to interrupt but I believe we had the discussion regarding scheduling right if we want to do that now okay um Mr capy are you going to be around in July what's the board's date I'm sorry Mr chairman uh it's the 2 10th 10th 10th second Monday oh Wednesday I believe I have another matter booked that evening and housekeeping I have would you def will be carried to August we'll carry you to August the August meeting date but we still not just yet 14 no you're going to have to leave now okay a take him with you August 14th oh I'm sorry we do okay and we have to deal with Mr stamos's client who's on the agenda for tonight right so we could we could put him on for July to July uh yes again if again there are two other applications before you that corre and one is a controversial application with a lot of neighborhood neighbor objective I understand but I think of our prospects for tonight of uh I don't know is there anything less than zero as a percentage available tonight okay so he'll be carried he'll be carried to July July 10th okay July 10th at 7 so we're going to make an announcement on [Music] the yes so we have the floor plan and a key plan on a 1.0 and on sheet a2.0 we have elevations and a rendering got sheet number what 2.0 2.0 so that a 2.0 that'll be A4 Mr and then A3 three the floor plans right which what was the sheet number for the first sheet you had 81.0 so using the the first sheet that was a 1.0 can you take us through the proposed modifications of the building pleas yes uh we proposed two things as was discussed before one is a poto coare or as you called it I forgot porch porch with a water fountain at the end and an extension to the cocktail area which would be in the closed new cocktail area and one of the reasons he wants the cocktail area here whenever they have the cocktails here they have a lot of stations for food uh for the main meal and it gets very crowded so we thought it would be a nice idea to be able to have a little Elbow Room and move the people out there can you give us the dimensions of the cocktail area Edition sure the cocktail area editions it's 356 going across here and it's roughly 19 112 going back and we also have a handicap ramp on the side over here uh for anybody who what needs to get in through here they have a ramp to get up into the bar area the addition will be a fully enclosed space it would be fully enclosed space with Windows and a roof it's a one story Edition one story Edition thank you as far as the port CER can you discuss the ele the Portico share just so you know the top of the P Portico share is 20 foot3 the bottom is 1462 but we're in design stages now and you know I will check out a fire truck truck it's height and make sure cuz we have six fet we can work with and I don't think you know at the time we just had a lot of room we'll bring the it up to like 16 17 ft so a fire truck can get underneath there uh basically the Poo share is 24 ft wide I mean wide and 45 ft from the building out then you have the waterfall which is it may be simpler for you to see the rendering to understand and it I think you have the plan seeing the rendering M um you can see the waterfall out here which the water would come straight down the toal shear sits right in there which they would come underneath and en clle during any kind of C question can we can we get that sorry up there Yankees lost come on face it go yeah uh rendering know what you're doing problem uh he doesn't that portion of the file for some reason didn't download one fire your wife so pretty much it shows the Poo share and the on story cocktail area right over here with the ramp on its side the port cocher does that connect directly to the building yes it touches the building the columns but up against the building and then come out the roof comes out roughly 45 ft and you have another two columns and supported so four column support the pH for ship when the vehicle pulls under that elements you'd be able to enter directly to the building in a fully covered space correct thank as far as the The Columns and protection of that is it necessary to add bers is there something from a structural perspective we can add to the design how do we protect the building giving its proximities to a driveway I can reinforce The Columns that we're putting in and we can also decorate some Ballard somehow some way to put up against the building because I kind of agree with you on people drive up you never know we can work that out yeah the waterfall feature can you give us the specific specifics on that please okay the waterfall feature basically is roughly 11t high and it's roughly 14 ft long and basically the water recirculates and comes down in a pool and goes back up and recirculates is it a wall or water no wall wall water right in here water comes down so you see water coming down as a wall oh so like the water comes up through something on the top and then it just Falls straight down what else for the drugs to run through we still have yet to design it right okay but that's a thought okay the side itself are we anticipating Mak some we're thinking about reskinning the building either with stucco or a stone material IAL panels to enhance the look of the building would we want to make that part of a uh one of the requirements that they provide us with the information concerning the in terms of mat material can ask yeah we would want to know that a sample we would like to see your your rendering and what it looks like so that the public could also see it and uh and they could have a not a problem approval good thank you Mr there's the inclusion of the p casare is that a typical element for such a facility how would you describe that well the whole way this came up I went with Joseph to a few facilities and they all have poo shares and he was losing a lot of business because he didn't have a poo share poo share and many other places had him so he thought it would be a great idea to keep up with the other facilities to have a poo share so people when they pull up don't get drenched on as you wish they can pull underneath and get into the building without the Clement weather above any lighting associated with with this element uh yeah we'll probably put some lighting underneath some high hats that go directly down there's no spillage on it and we would you know I've already talked to a lighting guy and we can probably put probably 10 to 12 high hats up there that just go straight down to light the area and that would be mounted within the ceiling of the correct that's what the hide might be in the ceiling during our conversation ear earlier when Mr Tel was testifying there was a question about 8 accessibility from the rear of the building are you in a position to discuss that this evening or I think that has to be looked at that something that you'll investigate before we come back before the board yes and you would be investigating what specific well we've got to figure out a way if somebody comes up is handicap how they get out of their car and how they get into the building and get easily thank you that's something we'll do before we come back yes thank you I don't have any further question maybe even a drop off of some type for uh handicap um Tom I was just going to ask you a question does that water feature count as impervious coverage because it's water and it contains the water that's or is that could could that be excluded it does it's like a pool yeah a pool it would be included like your your swimming pool is included it is included even though it does absorb the water that that falls it doesn't pass through water no it stays in there so depends on how much okay I'm not going to I'm just asking I'm sorry I'm an accountant I'm not an architect or an engineer seem logical to me okay well thank you um I think we're gonna ask our panel here our engineer just one thing that was brought up earlier I forget who asked it I think maybe might have been you Nikki the fountain do you have a plan for when it's going to operate uh we' have to ask Joseph okay the operate I don't have any control over that that's all I have okay I I have nothing Mr chair Tom I I have nothing is the uh is the the new extension part that you're building cocktail area yeah the cocktail area is that two stories one story it's one story okay and what is the roof um it's going to be accessible by the second is that a second story there from I see Windows yes there's not going to be access to a roof or anything from anybody there's really no need if they have to fix the roof you get a ladder right okay another question is that used to be the walkway that was coming from uh the area where was a walkway in front and when you came out of the building there was a ramp you came out to a platform and you came down a ramp okay as you can see as is now so the people that come from the parking lot that walk should walk up if they don't do the valet or it's a small enough party do they walk in the do they walk is there a walkway for them in addition to the circular driveway that's there or do they walk in the circular driveway you want to take a quick reference to the site yeah they went through the back door what I'm saying is though is the the walkway is being removed that was there or at least it's being replaced by the building so now that there's no place to walk do they have to walk in the area where the cars are walking around and if it is it doesn't seem right you know should be addressed Mr to can you answer that course we have an ADA ramp going up the side to an to an entrance um wait sorry over here walk walk in the car right since the building is being expanded to take up the space in which the persons used to be dropped off and walked straight up to the entrance now that that building is there are they being asked or required to walk in the right away of the circular driveway well everybody is is pretty except for the handicap consideration which we'll address everyone is going to get out of their car here and that Valley will take it and they and you're saying if Mr chairman we'll have to add another walk that's what I'm I think you do I think you do because as people are driving in and there and people are walking up there's going to be he said they're going to add it right okay thank you move you know I think you we move on thank God I have Mikey as my my right hand you know Vice chair tonight that's all I could say Thank you Mr Vice chair you're welcome um you know what on that note I'm I'm going to defer to you and I might come back with some more questions so if people are walking up walkway existing walkway up kid the one that they going to consider during construction is if we can ask Joseph is wedding are weddings is weddings or weddings are weddings are weddings still going to take place I think we're anticip Mr will speak that I think we're anticipating it doing it during our slow season where there wouldn't be limited to no activity there okay and are weddings going on now outside on the the big patio there are ceremonies now be legal um that answer through me um ala come back just two things uh you mentioned that um on the porch there'll be some recessed high hats to eliminate any light spillage but there's no exterior lights on it okay very good and uh Tom correct me if I'm wrong I believe the length of our ladder truck is 47 ft so take that into consideration for a turning radius out um I think I'd be more concerned with the height that a truck would get underne also on the um they would never discharge the orientation of the drive there cuz it would have to Circle that drive and still you stay on I'm just throwing that out there that's information you may want to consider so I think it's Tom if I'm correct the ladder it's about 47 ft yes if you're anticipating the ladder truck actually making the move all the way around the circle then you should have the applicant show you a template that that works because I I'm sure that doesn't work well I just want I I'm not I'm not saying that they I just want them to consider that I don't think I don't know whether the design I don't know that they're working the design I think previous testimony they were talking about they were going to coordinate with the fire chief okay that's F yeah that's about the time I think I walked in so uh maybe some of that discussion was uh had before I got in but um that's fine as long as that's going with the fire chief I'll be comfortable with that I haven't put a template on it but my guess is and I'm pretty sure it's accurate you're going to be able to pull your biggest truck straight into the circle mhm stop at you know 2/3 of the way through the building and then have to back out yeah yeah and that's that's good that's good okay you good yep all right Nick is there additional um is there additional condensers or air conditioning equipment or anything needed for the extansion and is that I'm sure there will be but we haven't got that far we're just in the design stage right now and where would those I know it's in the probably go on the roof where you can't see them it would be on the roof rooftop units um would those need to be screened if they were yeah we would do what was required we'll have a plan that shows the worst case scenario inclusion of additional group toop with with the associat SC the other question I mean would be required devel where's the existing um dumpster or Garbage area where trash is taken you mind coming up and just plopping your plan on the easel a please I just really I want to know if that's you know where it is if it's screened and if it's moving actually I it was it was part of a previous application I believe we had that uh it's located in the U on the existing plan it's shown uh in the corner of the existing gravel parking lot okay in the rear and that's not changing that's not changing good Bob yeah um is there a second story on the building today yes and is there an elevator for the handicap to get up to the new cocktail section uh or is there one plan no um but I think it's a good idea to get up to the cocktail section well the existing cocktail section no the new one oh the new one be on the second floor right no no no first floor and we have a ramp I miss okay um and we heard some concerns about the noise for the smoker group and uh let's face it I don't want to offend anybody here that smokes but the smokers have really become the lepers of society they have to go somewhere to smoke and it's never where they are um so I'm going to ask for some consideration on a way to soundproof the exit from to the patio because that's the most likely section that seems to be a use to today um maybe there can be another door so that when one opens it closes and then the next one opens um because as the business owner I know you're spending this money you don't want them smoking out front you know where you have put all this new functionality in in um decorative space the yeah the patio area the north side north side Theo outdoor area along the westly side of the building is a covered outdoor area that's off the main dining room I'm not sure I think we heard from the gentleman who lives on Karen court right they they're out by the patio and when they go out the music is blasting you know cu the door is open and so I thought he was referring I could be wrong I thought he was referring to over here on the side correct this side door right here that's what I thought he was referring to we well we'll ask him I'm sure he'll come up okay Mr Le yeah and there's a water yeah over here that's where the main party room is and that's where the this big room and then there's this door here you're talking about come conly opens and closes opens and closes andang out cigarettes is there ask J they can maybe make that more like an emergency exit and have people smoke on the west side where the big iling of patio is now but of course that it just moves it to some can throw but it's not where that is there's really nobody the West uh neighbor is kinding further way so but then again yes but it it seems to be an issue that needs to be addressed I think you should give some consideration now are you were you basically saying that there should be like almost a vestibule put there so that when one door opens the other door closes and then so that it's sort of it's a buffer of the sound or the cigarette smoke the the sound so that would just maybe mean a little bit maybe a little bit more impervious coverage to build a little bit more of a a vestibule area yeah might might might Vice chair wants to say something sure Mr Ley is complaining about the people being outside so I get what you're saying VES Star Trek doors open go in close open could me if I'm wrong Joseph isn't there a room behind well he can't wrong isn't the room behind like near the top of the paper that is enclosed like where those two doors go out isn't that an enclosed room these doors yeah isn't that a little like enclosed no right there no to right right there yeah isn't that enclosed it's a covered area but it's not enclosed covered area there's no walls on that can can we make that a smoking area it presently is and but like no smoking out by the fountain or you know to alleviate the noise we've had we've met with Mr Levy and at one point in time he had a lawyer and we tried dialoguing about realistic operational limitations that could be put in place to try to discourage that kind of activity and we never were able to uh get to an agreement uh we were hopeful um that the reduction of the patio area at that location would help the St people from conting about recognize that the patio that exists there now is somewhat of an attraction to people to go outside and gather and that they'll be we we're of the thought that the elimination of that will help diminish people congregating outside but to make an assurance that nobody will go outside and walk about is just unrealistic and that's just something we couldn't commit to all operationally but maybe architecturally we can't off those doors and need regress no nobody's saying to close them off it's potentially look at an alternative to buffer the sound with some type of entrance and exit so if they're ESS well you talking about sound within the building or the smoker sound no it's the music the music that's SPS out because smokers we would create a vestibule if we had to on the outside we could do that but then it would increase the lot coverage that's something we'll investigate I think you should I think if that's going to be a concern of the leves and it's something that really is of their concern uh and it does buffer The Sound by one door closing and then the other door opening now the now the new door opening does not have the sound of the event coming out to them it it might make it a little bit more palatable for them Mr Levy said it was the people outside well we'll hear from Mr Levy when he's ready to come forward and talk to or the with the people outside he might not like the people but anyway what about in a doesn't even know the people okay M he doesn't know the people and he doesn't like them I don't understand we'll hear from Mr Le EG store right so so we would create another eagus doors you would go through what no I I get that but what if what if you just make the doors there and alarmed in the back or the on Mr ly's side at the site every occasion okay Dave's young he can go let's let's move forward from this point it's something we want to consider let's hear from the uh the you know the applicant the applicant and some the uh neighbors and see what they have uh their up their uh sleep uh Vick yes uh just a clarification what was the the vertical clearance to Porto share is that that right now we have it at is 146 and A2 okay that's good well I have 6 ft to the roof so I'll probably raise it I'm a I'm a bridge engineer so 14 ft is is the standard so if you have more than 14 ft you shouldn't have any problem with any Vehicles you know passing through thank you okay I think Mike you're up you good John I'm okay you're okay can I do one quick followup sure Matt you would kind of given a a preview of the acoustical Engineers report I think based on what we're hearing tonight they might want to consider music spillage too in that report that's that's not what we're something we prepared to address they can't look at that before they testify well it's been it's been raised as an issue like the the primary sound problem is when the door flies open and the music comes out right when you when you have the ability for a sealed space to open Sound is going to flow out from that area um but what I'm saying is the barrier would again but the barrier the barrier wall as it's currently designed as a $300,000 cost to extend it further to connect past those doors increases the cost exponential um so there may be another way to model it or to to address it through the best of you a lock that Mr Lazarus just mentioned as opposed to further continuing the sa continuation wall but we'll we'll we'll look into it Tom are you saying about extending the uh the anything yet I'm what I'm suggesting is the report should address it since it's a neighbor concern right I agree I agree so your sound person at least we could bring it to his or her attention and then they could either address it now or bring it back to our board with some uh Alternatives that might make you know our some of uh the uh the proposals uh you know doable or not doable based on you know uh working with with your architect an answer we just need an answer right I'll I'll certainly bring the concern to the acoustical engineer and see what kind of uh thoughts he can offer good that's what we're asking you to do okay good um Mike has a followup oh Tom first Tom uh yeah could you just back over to the previous picture question drawing sorry you said there's nothing currently on the roof no I didn't say okay I thought I thought asked about putting where would we put the units I said probably in the roof okay um the the addition the cocktail room right there is that a flat roof yes okay it's not a parit roof it's a flat roof flat okay if we created a parit then you could hide yeah exactly you may do that yet okay Mike back to sound I'm sorry people back to sound John did you previously say that no outside weddings are allowed and part of the application is to allow outside weddings to take place yes that that was a prior condition right so right now no corre so how many outdoor weddings are booked Mr am will address that I have to wait for him to sit there I'm sorry I have to wait for him to sit there exactly oh okay and you can't call it a porch oh okay he okay for cret but Mike that's also why we could make it part of a condition to buffer the sound out of the building because it's part of the whole overall application that what they are currently doing is not allowed and so to allow them to continue to do it they have to come to the table and and and uh and satisfy the requirements of the board so we'll see what um what our contestant contesters have to say is there anyone else on on our de and members want to say uh anything okay I'd like to open up the uh the the uh opportunity to question the architect to the public do I see anyone that like to ask him some questions well forever hold your peace okay I don't see any Charlie not even you Charlie come on Aries really well Charlie okay I guess we'll close that and uh your uh your next have two minutes to speak to Mr sure sure thank you GNA two minute okay we'll take a 5 minute we haven't had one of these in a while have we I know not the Bob how far how far back do your files go on this first to raise your right hand please you swear or affirm that the testimonial given this shall to sou guy yes sir for the record we State your full name and spoil your last name please Joseph amrani e m r a n i thank [Music] you Joseph can you tell the board your connection to the applicant um I'm the owner of the Alan man colon man thank you would you mind give me your voice up please so the microphone to Pi you of course how long have you all the old man since 2002 since that period of time you made a series of renovations to the space is that correct good the application that's before the board can you tell us some of the problems you're having with the existing space um the problems one more important I shouldn't say more important the port crochet which uh in in climate weather impossible or very hard for those who are test with their hair made up makeup bright groom to come in in case of rain wind cold or heat so we it it is difficult for them to get to the place by time they get to the place in an in climate whether they soaked or hair blown apart and so forth um I do have an issue with my cocktail area it's a little bit tight uh so we we want to create uh an area for the folks to have a little bit more Elbow Room and uh the other the other problem that I have is uh the capability of doing the ceremony outside so outside ceremonies you you're currently having those ceremonies is that correct correct and how long have you been having such ceremonies well a long time it's been it's been a long time I have at least about 15 20 years and and the prohibition on having such events when did you learn of that condition um I I I it came to to light when he applied for this uh application and that's how the by someone reading the past resolution and understanding that I can't do ceremony answer so you you've known about it for some time and yet you're still continuing to have outside ceremonies why is that it is vital to my business um if I can't do CER morning outside I would not survive and if I can't survive I may have to turn this property to something different it is important it is vital and again if I can't do it then I might have to turn it to something different the the ceremonies under the the circumstan in which we're proposing to do it under this application can you tell us would it be isolated to the area that Mr Tel talked about that's in the northwest corner of the property no it's it's in the same area is that the northwest corner of the property correct and the modified patio area that we had discussed earlier what how how would that be good to use well the only the patios only will be used uh which is a 6 ft in case the patrols were walking so you won't go into the mud and just a little bit of an area on top by I guess western side which would actual ceremony so the bride bridal party would not be standing on the grass on the hard surface and the balance of the participants for this ceremony how would they be set up in that area they'll be uh on the grass and how many people are you anticipating would participate in the ceremony well maximum capacity of the place is 296 no want to say that I do 296 every day our average parties these days are varies but it it's we would never do maximum every day so we can do maximum 296 chairs in there but we don't do we don't book maximum every day understood but does that area sufficient to accommodate a capacity event yes you can and how would you the people that are not part of the Ral party how would they be set up in that area where would they sit the regular guest you mean yes on the chairs on the grass and if the I believe the board planer had asked if the if the ground was wet or soggy that day how was that dealt with well that is discretion of uh the bride and groom if they say the ground is too wet they have to come inside and as far as if we're anticipating snow uh rain for on a particular time when you have a wedding plan are you anticipating correcting a tent of some sort or how do we deal with that condition no I don't I don't plan to put any tent up there um the only time you put tent was around the co time and I have no plan to put anything so so again if the there's a wedding on a spe on a particular Saturday and rain is anticipated for that Saturday how is that dealt with from a planning perspective then we have to take it inside the ceremonies what's the average duration of the ceremony the average duration of ceremony is maximum 45 minutes half an hour to 45 minutes and is that half hour 45 minutes is at the time in which the bridal party is at the paved area and the Cil ceremon is occurring what what happens within that 45 minutes it usually take from we try to hold the guest until the last minute from the time the guest are seated for session the actual Services which these days it's a lot of justice of peace and nothing necessary as a priest it take about half an hour 45 minutes the particular time of day that such an event would conclude is is there a time period by which these events typically the ceremony ends and people return back to the building for the balance of the celebration mean that the time that I do the ceremonies yes if we do ceremonies either is done from 12 from 12: to 12:45 or it's done from 6 6:30 to 7:00 that's normally the time and as far as the the frequency of such an event in in a given month how many outdoor ceremonies would you have now it's important understanding that I don't do ceremonies or we can do ceremonies from April I'm sorry we can we can only do from April to October so 6 months out of the year we don't do ceremonies outside because it's too cold um and not all the weddings that I book require ceremony on site some of them are outside um and even say outside what do you mean by outside by church or elsewhere um and even those that are planned to have inside cere onside ceremony again because of the climate some of whom are not able to do it outside so the most I can do and again these are all not exact number that I can give you but very close to it the most ceremony that I will do in a month is maybe six or eight that are outside now if you ask me exact number I could never give it you for come for a month to month changes but if you average it six to eight a month and out of those six or eight cies that occur a month how many times at those six or eight are are more than one occurring in a given day is really we don't I can't say I've never done two ter ceremonies in one day but the chances of that is not that great part of the application proposes a sound attenuation wall as well as an amplification limitation are you aware of that of course and the acuil engineer have you spoken with that gentlemen of course will you be installing a a house an outdoor audio system that will be controlled by um old p yes the the the the the system will be installed by us it will be controlled by us it will be limited by us as far as the sound thank you the drop off area we had talked about utilizing valet only for certain events and not for others can you tell us what the break point is the utilization of Val and why that is well as we planned if the parties are over 100 uh they will get a valy if the parties are 100 and less it will be self Park so take me through the self Park scenario where do people Park and how do they enter the facility Well even when we say self- parking so they may still come through the circular drop elderly and wife and kids off and then they can go park their own or if they choose to go directly to the back of the parking lot we'll have sign for them that says self parking so they know there is no Valley parking they can either come under pter crochet drop the family elderly someone that has a high heel and the man will go park or the woman or someone else will park or they can directly to the parking lot and park their own C so the circular driveway area is available for both the valley and self Park scenarios it is available you know I mean if I was going to a wedding and I had to self park the car my myself I would take my wife to the door I'll drop it off and I don't and I go par the under the valley scenario can can you describe for us how Valley currently is performed at the site and how it's going to change under the proposal as of now as you come to the ult pan maner just go drive up St stay closer to the building the valet guys take the car and then the patron walk as you mentioned about 80 ft into the building in case of a a port crochet of course there will be two lines that come in of course one line at a time with two lines depending how fast we move it they drop the folks right in the front and then they the car the park park in and so the valley under the Valle on the valley scenario the valley would bring the vehicle back to the main and then they will bring it to the main entrance and um and the the new system um the way it would work the valet would have walkie-talkie also so the guest they don't need to go outside the building to wait for the cars they stay inside Val guys with the walkietalkie with the number uh tag number 464 the guest are inside I they bring the car and then they go outside the the modified cocktail room can describe how area is going to function um the area for cockal area is just an extension to to the existing cockal area is enclosed and I'll be utilizing it with some cocktail tables to allow more guests to have a little bit of more ill room and not not to have the t i the overall number of seats limitation in the main dining hall at 296 any proposal to increase that absolutely not he's staying on that number and makes no sense no we not changing that number thank you Mr no F question okay I don't have any questions no questions no questions Mr chairman uh yeah I just have a question about um your potential traffic pattern here at the end of your event um like you said you had your valet coming down from your parking lot in the rear of your building and they're coming into this circular driveway that you're proposing they're making the turn around and then they're parking underneath the Portico and then the owners of the vehicle will get in their vehicle and then they're going to leave by making the right turn outside of this down your driveway to exit your facility left left turn I'm sorry left turn no actually oh cuz traffic is Flowing trff is Flowing this way yes right the left turn but at the same time um you have your valet coming back from the back of your parking lot making the right turn so you're you're actually having traffic left turn left turn sorry left turn again I'm the other it's the other right yes thank you I'm sorry the left turn you actually have traffic Crossing each other is that a concern that that doesn't happen sir how can it not happen because when the guest leaving they coming down the driveway yeah they they they go to the circle of driveway they make a lift yes valy guys come up from the other side and they go to the other side of to the other side of the portal to come out but if they're coming from the back of your facility and they're going into the circular driveway here they're still crossing a paths thas I I appreciate your question but this is some something as we just say if you're on an intersection somebody making a left somebody making a right all right are we careful how we do it that's that's my question I mean is I mean it I'm just Mr joh we'll have to have somebody look at that okay I'm just I'm just if you're you know we're talking about operational here I just want to know what plan you would have in place to uh prevent any backups here traffic that it's a it's a fair question but some of the things are also will be trial and errors and at at the beginning we might have some problem we would tweak it and we'll fix it okay thank you and just to follow up on that it's it's a very large open space which I think is a good thing it gives you the maneuverability but the other side of that is it doesn't actually direct people very well so if you could just have somebody testify to that at some point understood good I'm good yes okay um uh I have a question you said you're the owner are you the principal owner or are there other partners are you I'm the only owner 100% okay um you said that you've been doing out events for 15 to 20 years there have we had do we have a um an ordinance that'll had allowed that for that period of time refer to the resolution resolution the resolution from 2015 W it's reference 1985 1985 okay and so we're not sure if it does allow it or doesn't allow it doesn't allow it doesn't allow the resolution okay um 1985 you mentioned that uh you can only do weddings between April and October is that sorry sorry outside weddings uh April to October that's not because you can only do them that's because you choose only to do them because of the weather no because it's cold outside yeah I'm saying it's it's a weather related right okay and you also mentioned that you do maybe six to eight ceremonies outside a month during During the period so that's that's two one to two every weekend if you have a an affair every week um you're doing four if you did uh two a week it would be eight say so every week every week every month you're doing at least six to eight outside ceremonies so people are not doing their ceremonies somewhere else and then coming and so they're doing them there does that part of your marketing uh of your business that you that you offer that service it is part of your marketing okay I I don't know if I use the word marketing but if somebody comes to our facility and uh insist of having ceremony or they may not book the parties with me if I can't do a ceremony then they won't work with me right if I now I certainly understand the idea of having that that covered I'm going to call it a portico I don't know what you guys are calling it but I would call it oh po I know but that's I'm not French call it Port okay um I can certainly understand and I I'm an advocate of having that type of uh covering because I have to take a lot of pressure from my spouse if I have to drop her off somewhere and it's raining or something it's it's a it's a problem so I I can understand that that is a important aspect and I don't know to what extent that that our board uh or the U objectors maybe in the uh the audience have anything against that particular uh aspect of your application um I don't suspect that they do but that's my own personal uh feeling um I'm going to leave that up to my other uh board members to question and for the public to question you so with that I'm going to leave it to my first lieutenant Mr alessie you're up okay uh one I have to agree with Nick I'm I'm really concerned about the ordinance from 1985 actually was an ordinance it was resolution resolution thank you adopted 1985 that you can't have outdoor weddings but you continue to have outdoor weddings to me we're setting a precedence that will then say you know somebody else could do something against a resolution until it stopped kind of asking forgiveness instead of permission and maybe that's just the way I was brought up but uh I just have an issue with that and we need to discuss that further I know it's part of the application um I can't speak for Charlie's esteemed neighbors um they'll have to speak themselves whether they like it or not um and then um my colleague Bob brought up the double vestibule and maybe has to come back to Mr Lazareth can you do it inside instead of outside adding to the impervious service just a question throughout you bring it back you know next month um that way do the no the the vestibule you can build in instead of this way you're not adding to the impervious service um surface that the port cochet is creating which by the way is a nice idea it looks nice um I just keep going back to the asking forgiveness instead of permission for the the outside because it's you're opening up not just for you but for everybody else in town I'm going to build I'm just it has nothing through your friends I'm going to build a 10-ft fence and then come in and ask for a variance or I'm going to double the size of my house and then come in and ask for a variance I I I don't like that that precedence and that's all I got to say hey of the 6 to8 ceremonies a month during the April and October period do they all occur on Friday Saturdays and Sundays or do they extend all weekdays uh we start doing some ceremon we started doing some weddings on uh Thursday too so if it is a ceremony on Thursday you could be there too that's all I have justess um piggy bagging on that question if somebody were to ask for a Monday or a Tuesday are you basically open 7 days a week yes correct and is it only weddings that you cater to or if somebody wanted to have I know they're not having a christening there but some other party um and they wanted to do an outdoor ceremony I can't think of a specific ceremony right now but maybe it's renewing vows maybe it's birthday party something where they want to start outside no if it's if if it's if there anything except Sodom when I want to do what I like a bar mitvah or no no um the times that you mentioned 12: to 12:45 6:30 to 7: that coincides with maybe a 4-Hour party slot that you have I know most restaurants you have an event you show up at 12: maybe there's a 1H hour cocktail hour and then you have three or four hours after that is that pretty much what you have two time slots a day or can somebody come in at 8:30 and do a morning event or later in the evening 9 or 10:00 no we like to do two parties in a day it doesn't happen all the time so uh we could do two parties in a day but it doesn't happen all the time but in terms of the time is 12: the earliest or or if somebody came in for one party that day and they said 9:00 in the morning if you ask average again this is average um the 1: in the morning starts from 12 12:30 ends 5 5:30 and the one at night time start 6:30 on 6 6:30 on so there's no limitation really but that's mostly when you have the parties 12 12:45 6:30 to 7 and then when you have it in the evening um I know you said April through October so September October I don't really know when Sunset happens but I'm assuming it's around 6 6:15 do you have any additional lighting that comes outside for this afternoon late afternoon RS we have an issue with that we don't have much of a lighting for uh when it gets dark it is difficult to do seven mon so you don't bring out um any extra accessory light for that particular event there is one light or two lights which is very minimal uh on the on the roof of the corner with the ceremony takes place but it's very minimal it doesn't really do much um my last question just had to do with the valet station I I I have been to the manor many times over the years um when you drive in right now I believe there's a a table I don't know what you would call it where they keep the keys right does that change in this scenario where we have to bring that uh closer to uh main entrance so it just be like a movable portable you got to find something attractive that thank you it make those portable but it has to be attractive [Music] thank the valley I want to make sure well but I have to go to the back yes okay um but if there is a valet when it's the end of the night is the valley coming from the back almost around and and then the car is pointed up the driveway under the Portico or is it facing the street uh it's facing uh South I don't know what south is facing towards Dearborn facing towards Dearborn so but on what side of the building door will be approximate to the building under the P under so it it would be as though I had just come in so when I get in my car when valet gives it to me I have to drive around to the back and then come all the way back around to exit oh you just go straight and make a look straight and make a okay I don't know the setup BR right right now how many parking spots do you have in the front of the building question I think it's about 20 10 11 I may beong so I may be wrong okay so operationally the valet are going to be huffing a lot further distance to get back to the front of the building right 10 10 call doesn't make that much difference when you have four four valet guys it's one to to a guy so that's yeah and as you said operationally if it if you need more you'll you make the tweets and you make and t spot yeah yeah I don't I have a problem with the fact that you're not following the guidelines of the town but I also understand that that business that you're in um basically that's almost a standard to be able to do outdoor ceremonies um so I I feel for you but uh we have a tough decision ahead of us I appreciate that thank you okay that's that's all I have yeah Mr amrani what year you started the business or or you took 2002 202 and there was a resolution in 1985 for the previous owner do you know if the previous owner was using outdoor ceremonies yes question only one question and uh uh during your exploration of building the circular driveway in the PTO CER in the outoor space was it at all explored to perhaps move the outdoor ceremony anywhere else in the property maybe away from the property lines at all at this time if you ask me that's the most secluded spot in the property probably the most peaceful have you been in a property many times so I would love to take you for a tour um you don't have no but thank you for the ceremony here um the most secluded uh is part this from everybody except Mr lady um that's the most secluded area that I can find I'm trying to be honest so it is closest to Mr ladyy but it's farest from everybody and and come we go for the tour go no um I'm going to just bring back up because I know I mentioned it to I think it was the uh engineer first and then the architect about the walkway between the current circular and the coming from the back and with the extension being built you're going to consider and we're going to make that part of any kind of agreement that there's got to be an additional walkway allowing people to walk without being in the street when we come back and see you in August we'll have a revised plan okay that was one of the things uh I don't do we have any other questions on uh by our panel all right I'm going to open it to the public anyone from the public like to be heard please come forward identify yourself yeah I will stop hi I'm chy long I live at 10 Dearborn Drive my backyard looks right into the um cocktail room and where the extension is going to take place so that's where I live um I've been there about a year and a half almost 2 years so myself my husband and my fellow neighbors um are concerned because the outdoor ceremonies are not allowed they haven't been allowed and they continue to do to take place and now we also know we've been the meeting um that the owner of the old fan Menor is looking to have a permanent outdoor ceremony space so as he mentioned he's been doing this anyway and it's illegal so we do not feel that it is in our best interest as Property Owners to allow taking going forward a permanent outdoor ceremony State M it's it is loud enough the cars the people that work there the employees the valet parking you know you name it everybody that comes and goes out of there it's very very noisy and then when you add on an outdoor ceremony and you don't know what you're going to get it it it's all sorts of of things you don't know I mean we've heard everything there's a on the front lawn there's a gbo there's activity in the Gazebo I know there's activity in the far Corner which has the patio you you just don't know what you're going to get and it's very unfair and like the owner said these events take place April through November which is when we're out on our yard we're trying to have a good time with our family okay so I'm going to ask you where you in we need to have a question for the question is we would like you to stop I don't know that's can you would you please stop can you stop the outdoor C and it's making it very hard for us to get behind you and wanting to do something like a permanent outdoor ceremony when all along you're not allowed to do it and every weekend and you're allowed to do I'm a business owner my husband we need a question I'm sorry question is would you stop we're not in the position to do that sorry so the answer is no he will not stop it's illegal and he will not stop is that correct to put this in context the outdoor ceremonies he has right to ask in the case I mean that's the point he's asking for a waiver of that the applicant has a right to come before board and make a case and so as a quasi judicial body the board has to act as a judge and jury based on the evidence so that's why we have we're limiting you right now to questions to to elicit information for the board you'll have an opportunity to to to to express your concerns but the applicant has an absolute right to be here to ask it'll be up to the board based on the testimony and the proofs whether or not there's been sufficient evidence to support an approval if not it'll stop if it it's approved they'll be conditions or whatever that'll be a board decision but just so you understand it's it's a process and and they have the right to come and ask that doesn't mean they get what they ask for right now it's not allowed so that's that's a different issue this board is not an enforcement body they're judges so they have to deal with the evidence have have you or your neighbors ever called the police to complain about the noise so one of the neighbors has um it's a process and you know we don't want to involve the police I guess they have bigger problems and we don't really know what the protocol and I I don't know it but she can object I have a question so you said you live 10 deer board yeah and you hear the wedding ceremony that takes place on the other side of the property by Mr Mrs Ley yeah well it depends it you know usually there's like a microphone you hear you hear the people you know you hear you just hear the out you know 150 people you can hear okay like I said to Mr Levy earlier let's wait until we have the acoustical people here and see what they have to say because if I understand that the architect is including in the building a automatic buffering system so it won't like here and that's loud the buffering system I would do that and that's what you would hear not this so maybe we can wait to hear what the acoustical people have to say I get what you're saying and I said it before I just have a hard time you know asking for forgiveness instead of permission um I I don't know I mean it's a very expensive situation the $300,000 to do that and what if it doesn't work that's the wall we don't know what the acoustical thing is going to be the wall or the fence or the to whatever I know I I don't know I'm just I'm just here to ask a question well you will have an opportunity later on if you wish to come forward and testify as to why you feel your position is is more than warranted and just other than why it's illegal and why he shouldn't do it and why it's it's infringing on your use of your property and such and also also your other uh you know um neighbors could could also come forward and uh and you'll have a opportunity to reot the application for our consideration when the overall uh consideration for this application is is going to be uh done by us so um you know this is just a question for this particular witness that you're asking and obviously you're entitled to it and we understand what you're saying but there'll be a time later on in this application that you can come forward and uh and bring Witnesses and such that you wish to bring forward for our consideration as to why the position of not allowing that is in the best interest of the town and the neighbors you know okay okay okay I appreciate that yeah all right thank you thank you listening I appreciate are all the rest of the Charlie esteem neighbors no what I I'd like to see if there's any other neighbors like to come forward yes please I was going to ask if they're all going to say the same thing well we might we'll find out hi Joseph I'm rich rousa 26 Dearborn I've been to many weddings where we Mill around outside drinks Cocktails so on and so forth I think it's well established that you're having outdoor unauthorized weddings I hear I hear the word ceremony and I'm almost getting the impression that it's ceremony and everybody goes inside no outside Milling no that's not what we said okay that's what I'm asking is there a a wedding ceremony that's conducted outside followed by perhaps cocktail hour uh uh Milling around uh on the patio uh joking around talking to neighbors relatives ask that's my question okay so all request is only for Ceremony I'm asking about now well even now uh I don't serve people outside we don't serve outside we don't service them outside we don't bring food outside we don't bring drinks outside we don't bring dessert outside if someone wants to go outside and get away from me for 5 minutes and smoke cigarettes I can't help it if someone wants to go outside take a picture I can't help it but I don't save anything outside I don't pide them with food I'm not asking if you serve I'm asking are there people that congregate outside after the wedding he just mentioned that how people smoking outside and otherwise so the answer is yes he just testified so the answer is yes they could go outside and smoke a cigarette I can't stop them can they have cocktails can they Mill around can they hang out I've done it at weddings sir I don't serve them if somebody takes a I ask if you're sir if somebody takes the drinks and they they want to go outside and have it Scotch outside and smoke a cigarette I can't stop that okay now under this and it's inappropriate to stop under this application I heard many times that it's all about a 45 minute wedding ceremony but actually there's going to be people outside that you can't stop even though you're not serving them we're asking we're asking for an organized activity now if I may if I may correct you on that right our ceremonies followed by a cockta hour m in other words we do the ceremony and people are dying to go have a drink and eat something so there's no reason to stay outside and we direct them to go to the C area to enjoy the drinks and the food if one or two want to stay outside it happens but 90% 95% 98% are dying to get inside the cockta area and eat even though it may be a beautiful blue sky day they're not going to want to have their drink and their snack outside Jo's asking the same question and you've already answered okay thank you good okay so but there lies The Dilemma right the ceremony is fine everybody will Rush inside for a drink but there's always a group and if the group is a young group and they don't like the music 25 of them will be outside the whole night drinking this application it's part of our decision as to whether to allow the outside ceremony and the noise spillover that takes place is part of a business event you can't control it but trust me it happens you know it happens happens at every wedding but whether we have ceremony or not ceremony people will still go out and have a drink and smoke in other words you tell me if I don't have ceremony nobody will go outside and smoke they still do it whether we have ceremony or not ceremony someone wants to just get rid from music from whatever reasons they have fresh air they go outside and smoke a cigar or cigarette it happens all the time you we could ask them to maybe even post signage it says please do not smoke or please do not bring drinks or food outside might be something that we could consider if we approve it and the rear portion of the building has an exposed patio area it's designed for outside congregation okay so so is that part that's built for that correct is what you're saying but our ordinance does or does not allow that outside part of the prior approval from the board okay so there there are out there so is that what this young this gentleman is referring to where people are outside or only outside where the where the ceremony was occurring where there was some spillage of people or people that were staying out there and talking and making noise or is it in the area you're talking behind the building you're talking about on the I guess the west side of the building there's two exit points from the main dining the north and west the west and the north right so as a result of those doors people either go to the west by where the outside covered area is which is not part of the area has nothing to do with what Mr andron constructed in 2020 part of a prior approval attached to the building there's congregation occurring there in this area here do we are we um we have approved or it is approval for them to use that portion of the building on the west side for outside you is anybody I'd have to check the record I'm sure that there's some paper trail that goes back to the board approvals but okay it's that's a facility has been there we have a history here we have a lot of history 1972 on right that's when of the first resolutions record okay so the so what this gentleman might be complaining about might be the sound that might be occurring in the west side of the building that is already allowed potentially allowed we're not sure we'll we'll check all of these uh approvals and it's it's an existing been there for quite some time want identify where and what he's talking about is there a roof on that there I don't spoke so I don't I don't I haven't been out there yes there's a roof on it yes could you discuss you know between now and and August maybe just making that a smoking designated area only we sell it as a smoking area but no other no other place on the property to alleviate the let see we sell it but whether you can force the guest to do it or not that's the differ stored it but we do sell it as a smoking area and we explain to them that there are windows you can still see there are cocktail tables in there you can sit and smoke but whether someone decides to go somewhere El we we understand okay we uh we have a 10:30 uh yes I want to I want to get to more people in the audience if it's you know please come forward yep Carol Roberts um 14th aorn drive I have um just questions about the valet I think it's a great idea the whole PTO whatever you guys are calling it um I think it's a great idea um I actually so my question is the back your back parking lot is that 100% P or is it grav or there's one part on the um uh uh North West that is going to stay uh uh not paid stay gra it will stay gra so my my um my thought is so where the Val currently is it's behind my house and Christy's house our H our backyards are right there I hear a lot of noise valet guys talk all night um the people slamming the car doors getting out of the car walking into the events this is when they have to park themselves if there are no valet guys there if there are valet guys there I hear them talking without the valet guys I hear all the conversations from the people leaving to get into their cars I think it's a great idea to have ballet all the time um well I don't know why you cut it at 100 or you know under I think I have beer bottles thrown in the back of my grassp I have I mean I hear it all I'm sorry to say but do you have a question specifically why because it's supposed to be oh right okay please could you have valet at every not just 100 and over e that would also alleviate a lot of the noise economically is not possible why is that economically economically costly but you you put it in you you have the right whoever you have the you know you have the paper it's just an added charge part of decision you there's just a lot of noise from every and I'm and I'm talking about the valet that that could be one way to alleviate some of the noise something that I want and you know it yourself the new proposal helps you tremendously because it's taking all that traffic away from and I'm I'm saying it's a great thing with you but but you know I mean yeah it is benefiting You by coming around I don't know how many parties are under 100 so you don't hear the doors anymore you don't I want that all the time but you know how much it it is benting you I want to hear I'm glad you're doing I'm sorry okay any other questions any I just throw a question in you had said you have beer bottles thrown into your backyard and and you two 10 Dearborn I don't know your name I I don't think so no could you think of I'm throwing these things back at you not bottles all right okay throw it back like a like a golf ball net you know you see a drive no me to no okay you know I'm just it's a very it's a very simple thing I've tried to be as nice as I can as a nebor okay if such a thing exists all they need to do just call me I'll go clean it it's not a big deal all all all they need to do just call me is Joseph I have two bottles and if I don't do it next time then they can complain but it's a simple solution I all right uh are there any more questions in the audience Charlie no questions yes sir have this will answer your question okay U because you asked about if we call the police before yeah so uh 3 years ago during Co um I out everything was out okay the this is the question okay but I'm just right prefacing it yes so I I called you we had the cops come I called you CU you just said right now all you have to do is call me I called you and I said it's 2 L Sunday night it's 10:00 we have our grandbabies kids at school tomorrow and I said can you please lower it this is not a question I'm asking did did you lower the volume I'm not going we're talking about his testimony and now we're really whole thing is that this is his credibility I'm asking he may not recall this is about his credibility and whether or not he lives up to he's asking for a lot he has an illegal patio he has illegal ceremon outside knows that that door bothers me open he does so his his credibility here is on the line if he if he doesn't answer my questions is not truthful to us you know supposed to be asking questions about his direct testimony right okay you have to ask questions with him specifically about what he's testifying about today or tonight very simple answer okay I have a question and he can answer it like that question if he remembers you can ask specifically do you remember that specific event that occurred two weeks ago there was a ceremony outside I don't think it was a bom MIT but there's someone speaking for about an hour and a half in a foreign language it wasn't a we because there was no music what was that I think it was on a Saturday afternoon yeah I heard that you guys heard that right it wasn't English it wasn't a wedding there was no music it was just a man speaking in a foreign language Mr you should it was me what you sure it was us who else I don't know because I don't remember anybody being I thought just St for half hour okay all right can let me I it's really not we're going to have Mr Lazarus is going to look into the door situation either interior or exterior so we can answer that question in August again going back with the acoustic people um to see whether or not the wall will and the sound thing I don't want to do that again um I think we'll have more answers from and no offense professional people about the sounds and the doors and sorry in August then now we we hear you right and we don't hear the band just kid but I I think if we wait until August maybe we'll have some better answers is is that no okay well it is it is what it is at this point um we're going to continue this application in at our August meeting without any further notice without F any further notice uh August 14th right August 14th AUST 14 7M all right so on that um this application is continued till August and thank you for coming in thank you thank you the board appreciate it thank you for giving us app okay you going to have your acoustic guy you gotta all right don't make me go down and drag them I'll drag them that's the question or Charlie has uh speak I'd like to open up the meeting for anybody that like to speak on a non-agenda item please come forward do I hear a motion second seeing none make a motion to close motion to close thank you second okay seeing no other uh motion to adjourn motion to adjourn second second anybody oh here pick good job