##VIDEO ID:yyhTYwkq48Q## what's today Wednesday August 14th FL meeting test equipment okay be here so I save it of course I don't have [Music] any you don't have a thumb drive I can't find one is that one or [Music] two Source what's the source source source I don't know I got to figure out what she's [Music] doing for for e thank you how are you thank you for for for stop have to go in compliance with the open public meetings law notification of this meeting has been sent to our official newspapers and other Publications circulated in the burrow of alapan and notice has been posted on the bulton board at Burrow Hall please note fire exits located at the main entrance to the council chambers and in the rear of the council chambers everybody stand and salute the the [Music] flag Ali to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic which stands one nation God indivisible liy and justice for all okay all right do a roll call here Mr here Mr Mr Mr J here councilman councilwoman misso councilman BL Mr Mr Mr SC here mran here Mr aaran here Mr kman here all right um is there a motion to open the meeting to the public for any non-agenda items so mov a lot of so moved any any seconds second all in favor I okay does anybody in the public have any questions or comments um regarding any non-agenda items seeing none do we have a motion she's missing the chair motion to close second all in favor I okay no environmental commission report I assume and our council person is getting herself comfortable right now it's okay uh is there a council liaison report yes um I am uh filling in for bill for tonight uh a couple things we had our first movie night in the at Oaks Park so big thank you to Tom and the DPW was really nice we watched sing too um we have one more coming up in August August 24th we're going to have one the night before Town day and won the the night of our Halloween um nice Festival um and then bill just wanted me to mention some other good news too um the town has conceptual approval from Green Acres for the Oaks Park house which is really good and they're actually in the process of meeting with an architect tomorrow to develop plans and the specs for the bid um and uh yeah that's about it everything else is coming smoothly Camp sendy was great for First Responders day was great thank you to our First Responders for coming to that and uh was a restful and safe summer for everyone thank awesome good thank you I received a construction official report does anybody have any comments seeing none borrowing borrowing what's it uh Nikki's not here somebody's going to have to do the financial rep oh what's a volunteer Mr account where is he is that what this is I've never sat up here to see the color of the folder um well somebody want to do it we can skip over that while we do some other things so we have a borrow engineer report just a couple items um the apartments across the street are looking for TCO on Friday people are scheduled to move in over the weekend wow so that's kind of a big deal um and the Burrows Road program is ongoing U milling and Paving of a handful of streets um throughout town so that'll be taking place this week into next is that just for right now and then are we're going to do it again next year yeah we've been doing um pretty significant Road programs every year 400,000 500,000 um you know it's things are getting more expensive and it's it's hard to keep up so the Burrows doing the right thing and spending a bunch of money each year that's great thanks we do like typically how many tons tons uh I think this is about 8,000 um no that can't be right it's got to be less than that cuz it's about $100 a ton so it's it's closer to four 4,000 tons I'm sorry how long will that g on for they're kind of breaking up the Milling in the paving trying to Mill based on forecast for days when it's going to rain CU they can keep working and then Paving the streets that they M so as of right now uh they paved Churchill today there's um cesac can't think of the name of real small one um off of Corgan way Buckingham and Hill Crest tomorrow maybe to deberg um then there's one more section that'll be done next week great thanks we will skip over Financial secretary report for another couple of minutes uh minutes to adopt July 10th minutes anybody have any comments regarding those we have a motion motion to adopt second all in favor I uh how are you doing now good you ready I think so all right Financial secretary report okay standing this is the stand in to the stand in so I used to do it for years so okay out a budget $551 out of escrow $2,589 190 a total of what hand 3,14 40 90 anybody have a motion motion second all in favor I I great thank you yeah bet you will I can't afford that all right any new business um additional meetings so Diane if you want to remind me on that one um there's a decent amount of applications coming in yeah um well more than a decent now right yeah we have five par coming up at the September meeting and then um besides Colonial manner which I'm not sure what's going to happen with tonight one two three four six pending presidential doesn't look like anything really major you guys agree on that you guys have the stuff but there's just a decent amount coming in somebody want to at least just plant the seed now before we make any decisions about that you just said you wanted me to put it on yeah no I did and and just we may have to have like a double up one month I don't know if if we have to in September but we should start to think about it anybody have any thoughts on that I'm okay with that we just pick a bi-weekly Wednesday after this meeting probably the fourth Wednesday of a month so all right in September I can't make the fourth Wednesday okay I could maybe it'll be I could do the third Wednesday if I had to okay I think yeah I have no idea I have like a couple of three nights a month I me as I told you last week I had five meetings and four nights no F that's what my schedule is nights every week just you know I'm not going to be able to make the 11th meeting but I'll get the recording beforehand from uh Diane Well what we'll do is if we decide we need this extra meeting Bob will coordinate with you first all right sure I am I guess well yeah don't I I'll forget it's difficult but I can try to things around all right appreciate it all right any old business no any Communications no all right we have two resolutions uh from our last meeting FR one isio VAR 27 Greenwood significant condition is that um additional screening is required on the north side of the property with the location species and number of plantings being approved by the burrowing engineer or his designate plantings will be trimmed and maintained and the Hedge from the front of the fence shall be always maintained at a 6t height for a maximum of 10 minimum 10 six maximum 10 the condition shall be deemed to run with the left that's the most significant a comment that was I was going to ask and Bob said it right all righty anybody have any comments other than that roll call we need a motion sorry motion second thank [Applause] you okay yes yes yes yes Mr yes Mr Kramer yes okay congratulations and then the second one is Ban 145 Orangeburg that's also a fence variant um the significant condition is the fence is required to be beige in color comprised of vinyl material as depicted in the photograph that was provided by the applicant in an email to the board dat in April 15th anybody have any comments regarding that one it's a six foot high yep a motion second motion motion second yes yes yes yes yes Mr yes congratulations again okay on to Applications okay so we have um two applications we got the gladman application 88 oal and then the continuation of uh old pan Manor which I have to recuse myself for um the agreement we have with the gladman is that they can go till 8:00 today uh because we've already scheduled all pan Manor and and they have quite a few quite an agenda of people coming in so hopefully gladman can get it done in one meeting minutes go for it my friend confidence sir would you raise your right hand please yes you sweare or affirm that the testimonial given Pur shall last M thank you okay I'll make a short and sweet for everybody um have a home uh in the backyard I've also had three children we've had a lot of time outside during the summer um The Patio is only partially covered today um about a third of it's covered we want to continue and cover the remainder of that set patio um that'll include an outdoor kitchen a fireplace and will remain all open air that's our goal um again the Sun at in during the summer happens to be consistently in that area from morning till night um for which we enjoy while we're at the pool but this gives us an area for you know myself my three children and we do a lot of entertaining so we will help give a nice covered comfortable space um during the hot months um we do most of our traveling in the winter months so we like to spend their time in the summer at home this will give us a more comfortable opportunity to do so I can make it more complicated than that if you'd like but um I think that gives a good perspective of what we're looking to yeah I think we're going to need a little bit more information than that I mean your your F your existing f is already significantly over um the minimum the maximum required and now I know you're already going another 620 foot so if you could could just give us more information it's in your application it would be helpful to present it to the board sure you when you're talking about specific information in terms of as to why I'm looking to do it despite the F sort of I think you should let us know what the numbers are so people should understand so so it's it's it's in the end it's going to be about a 600 squ foot covered space um again it's already an existing patio um so we're not taking up any more or adding any more to that particular area um you know this is again from my perspective it's a continuation of something that's already there um I'm not looking to start new it will be attached to that uh to that particular portion of the deck um you know if you give me some specifics in terms of what questions you may have as a relate to it which may help um you know I mean it's it's it's not any more complicated than that from my perspective right so there's two variances that you're asking for right one's for square footage and one's for percentage I believe it's an F F4 so that that's important for everybody understand and it's as a D4 Vance seven members are able to vote the two council members are eligible Christine you um and of the seven members eligible to vote the applicant needs five affirmative votes to approve it okay and do you have anything you want to show us any drawings any any photos anything you want to share with us that we can we should Mark and and we haven't marked anything yet yep so you're not represented by an attorney I'm not no I'm representing myself because I did just so you know this is a D4 D variant they hard to get okay understood um understand understand I'm just letting you know that understood um considering it's an open open air um and and I'm appreciative of of the rules and and the regulations you know it's an open air this isn't Clos structure I know by definition it it it's deemed an extension of my living space but this isn't a year round um living space for my particular perspective but um under those circumstances so this gives you a perspective of the back water so you see where let's mark that as A1 two photographs so if you can just put A1 on there enj your pen I I have a pen so here's the current backyard as we can see the bulk of this 600t space is uncovered this is the only portion that is covered the Sun during that particular time based on the angle just as a constant constant component there in addition it this is my living room um that's one of the hardest uh places to cool in my in my home so my AC has to work considerably harder I've done multiple parties and I've had and brought in a tent in that area I've noticed a considerable difference in in in the ability to cool that space um I I believe we've confirmed that with the extension that would also be a nice added benefit um to the home in terms of creating more efficiency um having less of a drawing on the grid etc etc um so again existing structure extends all the way out on over the existing covered patio um incorporating an outdoor kitchen and fireplace in terms of in terms of you know I'm also on the on the lake um you know I have neighbors behind me which is fully covered by trees you know this isn't obstructing views this isn't you know this is this is just purely um to create comfortable environment for me and my family and obviously friends that we host aggressively throughout the summer do you bring pictures for everybody dist it should all be of the included the application actually we have six phot we want the entire set sure do Mr gladman do you mind passing that around because some of us may not have it so we're going to mark the six photos if they want not thanks anybody else that this that this picture chairman while the board is looking at the photos can ask a few questions [Music] please it was a tough with the when did you purchase the property two years ago okay and since that time we purchased it have you added anything to that house at all yeah so the only thing that I've done you basically inherited the floor area that was that's correct yes when you moved in did you get a certificate of occupancy it was issued by the burrow it was um your intention is not to enclose this space corre stay open that's correct um would you stipulate to that as a condition yes happy just something to think about it's only going to be covered not enclosed it covered not enclosed it needs to remain an open space the reason and I suggest that I was sideb baring with our our engineer here and we thought that you know f is the control bulk massing of a building how it looks um and basically this is a technical application of the code because it's attached to the home and is a roof over the patio it gets counted you know it's technically 600 F feet of new floor area so that triggers the D4 use variance but we treat d4s a little different differently than the d1s the use is not permitted we use What's called the the Coventry standard uh based on Randolf Town Center versus town of Randolph and Mr Regan's familiar well familiar with that because the use is presumably permitted in the zone you don't have to show the enhanced burden of proof you don't have to show that it's particularly suited um you need to just prove that the site can accommodate the use and the the deviation standard not the med correct so the fact that it's open it's not closing off it's the fact that it's located in the rear of the property all of those are things that the board consider in its deliberations because floor area ratio has always been a touchy issue for the burrow very touchy it's been in every master plan that I've reviewed and have written for the for the B burrow uh but again the board understands that every application stands on its own merits and has certain factors that you could consider and those are things you can consider anything else John uh I just wanted to get those two items on the record and to explain this the criteria so we don't get off tangent on on what the burden is for this gentleman to have to prove and always the negative uh for any variance you have to demonstrate that the the relief can be granted without substantial detriment to the Zone plan and neighborhood and the zoning ordinance The Zone plan generally means master plan um and again the testimony that the applicant has presented was it's it's a narrow property fun thing and facing the lake it's not really visible the neighbors uh it's falling into the be yard of the of the the neighbor it's it's it's not affecting views that's the testimony that has been offered in that regard why don't we Mark the architect plan to okay and and uh John par call looking at the application site is odd shaped It's oddly shaped which led to other variances I recall yeah there are existing pre-existing non-conforming conditions associated with it the property this this application is not exacerbating or you know making intensifying any of those existing non-conforming conditions so the way I always look at that is unless there's a specific provision the ordinance which I don't think you have in Old Jaan those are not being touched we we recognize them as preexisting non in and we don't have to deal with it really only if you were expanding the side yard variant or something like that which is not the case here okay all right so back to you Mr gladman um I'm hoping that you found that helpful for Mr Zabo that's the kind of information that would help if you had an attorney and an architect or a planner here um you need to translate that information to us so that we better understand the conditions um anything else you want to share and do you have I'm assuming you have no other professionals I do okay no um you know again uh this is going to be a quick build um this is I'm being told from my Builder it's a four-week build um we know sometimes there's overages but um you know the structure will be up fairly quickly and you know we may even be able to get some use this year which will be helpful so um and and is the roof of the of the is is the top of the roof going to be used as a deck to the bedroom it's a current deck so to do it to to anything expanding the deck and covering the patio yeah in addition you know I do have some drainage sort of issues when it rains uh I have a pitch and I also have a back uh entrance to my property which is basically a waterfall so I have a 4in drain at the bottom of that basement incorporating a draining system within that will help help deter a lot of that water water flow which you know I have a fully finished basement as well so um it's it's that it it can I can have water infiltration for the I know it's off the bedroom um yeah the I'm I'm assuming you don't plan on having a lot of people up on that deck I've never I've never structural and concerns for structural concerns for egress yeah it's because 600 squ feet can can get a lot of people on no no agreed and you know where it's located off the master bedroom I expect nobody to ever utilize it I've never utilized it today it's not for that purpose but to finish it in any other format would be it would be look like a big flat roof it' be a big flat it be very unappealing absolutely Ely all right uh questions comments Tom just one comment and John covered this in his letter but just to highlight it a little bit one of the existing non-conformities is for lot coverage 30% 34.0% I'm not aware that that was ever granted by variance so I think that should be specifically called out should the board decide to act favorably on this so that it's memorialized in some form should we make that a part of the uh approval then is that we looking for another variance for that what you could do I would suggest uh consistent with what Mr scrable is suggesting is recognize that these existing conditions are present and are not being expanded or intensified and as opposed to Gran ad right just acknowledge it and and um be doing the same same thing that Mr scrable wants to and that way in the future it kind of protects the next homeowner and this home owner fine that's fair you you accepting of that ex the one clarification from your side in terms of enclosing for which I never I never will create walls what about what about um uh screens C screens breathable screens just to keep out bugs uh um that's up to the board um screening um that's that's a another creature yeah to this you need to consider would they be seasonal screens or year round seasonal yeah so these are these These are retractable retractable yeah to the board retractable versus permanent cuz if it's per screen then it's considered no it's retractable yeah you you can't have retractable you should not keep them down in the winter they can be damaged correct that could be a condition Mr chairman if the board is so does that require any kind of like half wall or something so that it comes down to a level to the floor so it it's it's within the current design so there'll be one two effectively four pillars um there'll be two on this side the fireplace will act as another pillar and then one additional over there and the rest is covered under um uh under under under very large beams giving the proper structure um uh security so there's no there's no walls being built that would then the screens come down let's say halfway because there's a wall yeah you're not Walling in at all the yeah I mean other than the other than the kitchen component of it which will sort of look or act like a and then the fireplace side is another and that's all on the same side so it's it's it's the it's the far right corner of it so you have the have the fireplace and then right attached to that will a sink and how how do the screens work then they roll they it's an automatic roll with the Phantom Screen so it's an automatic roll up press a button up down can you give me that condition again I was taking notes on something else uh that that the applicant stipulated that there would be no permanent enclosure however um a um movable screen or a retractable screen retractable that was the word proposed but at no time shall there be permanent walls constructed be like with that no heating elements no air conditioning elements so we have the only heating element that would that would occur there's there's heat lamps that are part of the original design only for purposes no radiators no no hot water pipe radiators or anything like that no not there's not even you know in the sink that's currently out there the water that's out there currently is it's only cold [Music] water and same regarding air conditioning for rest fire please no utilities all right no utilities I'll be a condition it'll have to have a light switch I'm sure oh yeah ELC count PL and the Plumbing's already there already a water line heat or airing okay Tom anything else thank you for bringing that up reminding everybody of that John anything else on your end Christine oh you're not this one you can't say anything open your mouth before I can gagger my questions about the screens were answered yeah all my questions were already answered because I just decided to Jump Right In um Mr M my only concern would have been if there was neighbors that would have had a problem with well we're going to open it up to the public and see right noticed right they notic they saw so I mean usually if neighbors have a complaint and we have to consider their position as to why it's it's part of the variance process and and the uh you know the application process that we consider the feelings of neighbors yeah so um I I'm going to wait to just see if anything uh pops up with any neighbors in whatever reason they have a objection to it you did you guys I know you said you don't plan on using the upper deck really but have there been any consideration of put stairs or anything I know we were talking about e or anything I know it's not on the plan safety issue from our perspective I do not want people having access to the top floor where myself and my children so other than that I'm good thank you no questions y uh the the deck right now currently you access it from the door from your bedroom or window it's through the master bedroom yeah there's a there's a French door so how how you going to do the drainage on the deck put gutters so be pitched yeah so they be pitched there'll be a you know sort of two holes on each side it that pitch will flow to it and gutters around and I will and and we'll be attaching those gutters to an already pre-existing sort of drainage out in addition I have like flooding issues in the pool area we'll incorporate a small drain in there as well to help help with I'm good no questions no questions okay all right any other comments on your part we're going to open it up to the public finish thank you all right does anybody have a motion to open this up to the public I'll moved second all in favor does anybody from the public have any comments um or questions excuse me about this application please step forward it come to the front and they have to give your uh name and address Jason Fox seven Greenwoods Road may I say sure um I my propertys directly to asking a question I'm going to swear SAR sure you raise your rightand you swear or affirm that the testimony will give this percent got yes thank you uh my property buts directly to George George is an excellent neighbor I'm coming here unsolicited George didn't know I was going to be here I didn't know I have absolutely no objection at all uh I don't think it's going to impinge upon or infringe upon my view of the lake uh so from my perspective George can do whatever he wants to do uh I'm all in favor of it thank you thank you Mr Fox I appreciate that anything else no I mean George is a good guy and his neighbors are good and this was unsolicited George didn't know I was going to be here aw and George wants to improve his property I'm all in favor of it thank you good anybody else any other neighbors or non- neighbors seeing none do we have a motion to close so moves second all in favor okay um are we ready to make a recommendation you know I just had a question on the drainage when you said that you're going to tie it into existing I know that we always end up with issues with water comes something that that's become very uh important on our board and people have to make sure they're draining things correctly um maybe Tom lot coverage issue yeah lot coverage issues right but um Tom is there an issue where the drains have to tie into something that already exists you need to know what those existing capacities are because because they're not changing the imperious coverage it's going it's going over an exist floor instead of the ground floor there's no new storm water management required good so whatever Mr gladman would do would be on his own um he's he's offering that um trying to make improvements of his own property we would not review that honestly that's excellent and in theory you really wouldn't be changing much because they have an existing drain there they just you're moving where the point of entry for the system so capacities don't change it's the route right that would change yeah and I will remind everybody I'm up against the Watershed so it's it's yeah just again one of those questions that yeah that we always end up having to ask or answer at some point in time and that's why we have engineers and uh planners on our board to tell us you know no you don't need to do that or yes you do okay good job thank you yeah you're welcome any other uh nothing from me right is anybody prepared to make a motion I'll make a motion to accept I'll second that all righty is there any any conditions though that there are the condition I have the put on noclosure only retractable scre no Primal walls no heat or air conditioning right okay waiting on you okay uh chair Maia okay so I don't like the application but I'm going to vote in favor of it I just wanted you to know that I I and the reason why I don't like it is because we really try we are trying to control F is an existing lock coverage issue but it's in the back it's not bothering anybody it looks fine and so I'm I'm on board with that generally I wouldn't even vote and approval of it but I wanted you to know my reasoning thank you so yes yes with a story I would second Charlie's uh position but there before the grace of God go I maybe one day in front of the board and I would like to have consideration that same respect and consideration done for me as I will for you and so I I'm voting yes Mr yes Mr ell yes Mr Kaza yes mran yes mran yes Mr K yes congratulations congratulations thank you good luck got a good string of residents with no attorneys lately it doing two in a row that no never all [Music] right so I get to take the rest of the so we're going to do the um old pan Manor application I do have to recuse myself I'll be in the back heckling all right and here somebody else's you can take that okay I'm going to bring this to Diane can I just do the pictures [Applause] back for you shoose to fill [Music] that's yes sir yes this is yours water that's mine that water please no that water you know my no I don't want my water but I left it in the car all right Mr Cap all right you're up good evening Mr chairman members of the board maty on behalf of the applicant The oldan Manor this was a project that was before the board in June of this year where we begun our presentation relative to the renovation and expansion of the existing building in several different ways the discussion we had in June was relative to the expansion to the cocktail room a modification in the front of the building to provide a circular driveway and a proposal relative to the ceremonies that are occurring in the northwest corner of the lot and how we were providing a sound attenuation wall there and a small Pap patio area for a wedding party to gather during some limited outdoor ceremonies um there are some other miscellaneous site improvements being made including Landscaping drainage and so forth that the design team discussed in detail during that hearing we heard testimony from Harry toell our civil engineer Steve Lazarus our architect and Joseph amrani the operator of the facility based upon some comments made during the application by both members of the board and members of the public we took the opportunity to make some modifications to the GL set and my office had submitted a a revised submitter a few weeks ago excuse me I don't have the exact date here August 1st uh August 1st we had a Revis submitt of engineering plans architecture plans we also provide the board with a modified Landscaping plan to adjust in accordance with the modifications to the architecture and engineering plans uh we provide provide the board with a traffic report from Burge toan to talk about the functionality of the circular driveway uh just before my professionals testify to give the board a brief summary of some of the changes that we made from the Civil Engineering set there was a question about how Ada spaces were going to be achieved the front parking field that presently exists on the site has two Ada spaces that portion of the parking field was going to be deleted and segments of it incorporated into the revised into the proposed circular driveway and we were losing two Ada spaces we have modified the circular driveway to make it a little deeper and we now have two Ada spaces that above the existing sidewalk along the Westerly elevation of the building so a patron can pull them to the Ada space exit their vehicle walk right into the on the sidewalk and then enter the building uh so we provide a modified site plan relative to that effect there was a question about having a parking area from the southerly parking a sidewalk from the southernly parking area to the main entrance that's been provided on the site plan um on the northeast side of the building there are two doors that exit from the main uh ceremony area the main service area excuse me and there was a neighbor to the north that had some concerns relative to noise that was occurring when those those doors opened when the main dining hall was in operation so to help alleviate some of that concern we're providing vestule locks to both of those doors now so there'll be a set of double doors a patron will exit the door will close the other door will then open trying to mitigate some of the sound that may be bleeding out from the norly building wall when the main dining hall is in operation the walk that was along that Northerly property area that from those exits was also modified to system into those vesle locks the pave patio area in the northwest corner where we had for a bride aparty gather again the neighbor to the north uh had some concerns that the patio area was getting closer to his property line so we shifted that South so that it now provides the same setback under the existing condition so the patio is no longer getting any closer to his property uh and then the drainage was updated because we had some additional impervious coverage that's essentially a summary of what happened from a civil engineering perspective the architecture plans were updated to incorporate those vest locks I just mentioned we provided a roof PL for the cocktail area to show where the hva equipment will be located and how it will be shallow in height and obstructed from view by way of a parit wall that will surround the uh cocktail area expansion and in the port crocher there was a question about the clearance height under that that remained unchanged it was acceptable in June at 14t 6 in that did not change as I mentioned earlier uh a traffic report by Burge tomakin uh and then the updated Landscaping Plans by Paul keys that we'll get to uh at some point on whether time permits you want to have any any of these documents marked before we start we we had some we had four previously marked I believe correct but U nothing that I describ nothing that was filed August 1st obviously has been marked and we'll mark that as I have the next one would be A5 fine so that's essentially a summary of where we were in June and what we've done since then till now by way of revised submitt um for this evening we were going to start with Harry tuell to go through through the revised civil Steve Lazarus to talk about the revised architectural plans and then Mr tomalak to go through the traffic report and then we'll see where we are from the time perspective at that point to see whether whether we can get to our acoustical engineer uh and our landscape architect I was also contacted by Mr Co an attorney who's in the audience I believe he would like to enter an appearance he should enter his appearance yeah good evening members of the board my name is Levi Co firm clear jacobe alir and Jacobs I'm representing uh one current homeowner I was contacted by several um in presenting an objection to this application uh currently I have one but uh I anticipate having several others I didn't reach out to Mr py um as I was contacted just a couple of days ago could you identify who you're representing yes uh this is um our client six Karen court it's Mr and Mrs Levy and I do want to present to the board before we get started here I do believe that there's a threshold issue that we have to address or at least I want to put on the record and I think the applicant has the right to proceed but it's incumbent upon me to present this right now I believe that the notice and the application are effective this property is changing in use we're going from interior uh ceremonies to outdoor ceremonies that is something that has been glossed over throughout this as far as I have been I was not present at the first application so I don't know how far the testimony went on that however as we look through the history of this property and I'd like to just make sure that this is clear on the record that this property going back to 1972 has submitted applications to this board expanding this use in 1972 they were prohibited from doing outdoor events in 1985 they applied to this board to do outdoor events the board found at that time that the outdoor parties and ceremonies in I cannot feasibly be controlled and that any increase in the level of commercial activity would be detrimental to the existing to the existing zoning plan into the public good noting the conditions of that approval dating back in 1972 the board found that any change would result I quote again in substantial breaching and impairing the minimum zoning standards pres prescribed by the zoning orance in light of this and after subsequent applications which reaffirmed those conditions Co happened and we are all sensitive to what that did to business owners especially ceremonies where they were shut down however the applicant constructed a patio without approvals without per started doing outdoor ceremonies without approvals without permits has continued to do these despite being unnotice of these prior applications despite being I'm noce of everything that's happened in the past fact in 1972 but this board has said we because of the adjacent Property Owners because of the zoning that this is a serious issue what I subit to this board today is that the application is deficient on Space a change in use when you have a resolution in place that says you cannot do this you cannot do X and they do X that is taking an indoor mechanic garage and putting it Outdoors right next to the proper that is taking the noise from inside and putting it Outdoors it is a change in use beyond what is prescribed or beyond what is contemplated by just a D2 variance it is a D1 change in use a condition of approval is tantamount to a zoning ordinance that prescribes or limits the use of a property given those prescriptions given those limitations they've been fled my clients the adjoint proper owners have addressed the the applicant have addressed the police have called in multiple instances of this and this is what is actually before the board the expansion of the the turnaround the locks those are good remedial measures they've done a great job with the the Landscaping the sound barers are not going to be sufficient they create a cacophony of noise that goes back into the residences you have speakers that are not on the ground they're mounted you have ceremonies starting at 9:00 a.m. M Mr chairman I think right now we've gone beyond his objection to the notice well it's on it's on the record um one question I have um I don't know whether Mr Co or Mr capy in terms of the outdoor events the Mr Cool stated that the patio was constructed without a permit after covid which was in I think March it started in March of 2020 I believe were outdoor ceremonies conducted prior to that time on the premises I believe Mr just testified to that when he was here in June the answer was yes okay since he's owned the property and I we do have a transcript I don't recall his exact testimony since he's owned the property over the last 20 or some odd years he's been having outour ceremonies yeah I'm looking at my notes not saying they're 100% accurate they said yeah [Music] --------- ##VIDEO ID:35AzlfIGPHg## doing a resolution okay yeah absolutely and S my notice does provide for a modification of the condition it's been clearly stated in my notice and in my application there was testimony to that effect during the June meeting as to when the patio was constructed why it was constructed how Mr amr's been having outdoor ceremonies the nature of those ceremonies and so forth so certainly we are not skirting the issue we recognize that for the releas s that in our application respectfully I disagree there was no completion of the D1 form I looked at the application today it was left blink uh is it referencing the notice that was given to people within 200 feet in the advertised notice I don't have that in front of me there's a detailed description that we're seeking a modification of the prior condition to allow after ceremonies I don't believe that's the case I did not have a copy of the actual notice you have a copy of the notice it's pretty easy to sure and again I do would default to the application that was submitted to the professionals where they would then review this as a D1 variance use application as opposed to A2 yeah I don't I don't I don't agree that it's a D1 variance case either obviously ceremonies are an accessory component of this type of use right now they're not allowed to do right so they have to come back with an application and says we are first of all asking F that's what I'm going to look at in the notes the applicant is also before the board seeking to modify a prior condition prohibiting outside activities to permit outdoor ceremonies in the lawn area and propos Patio along the northwest corner of the property with said ceremonies to be more than an hour in duration occurring no more than twice daily and including no later than 7 p.m. s question based on that notice how long has there been a condition on the property for no outdoor ceremonies I think since 72 and we just testified we've been doing it for 10 to 12 years this current this we've own the property so that's I'm saying so it's basically flating that condition of the previous resolution regardless fact the approvals were well before you bought it as Mr testified to when he was here in June He was unaware of the condition until it was raised admittedly some time ago in the past but well after own the property I but I think he also said that it was necessary during the time of Co and Co is well behind us most of the rules and zoning and everything went out the window temporarily no outside ceremonies was when he had the patio constructed it wasn't just for outside ceremonies we were using that for a tent to function with the vents and to serve meals outside the patio was not exclusively for outside Serv but was nonetheless done without approvals or permits Bob does the state mandate that I think Bob Rush brought up at one point come into play here or not I don't I don't necessarily agree with thator condition for no outside ceremonies of 1985 as we look back to the history and again this wases 2009 2010 2011 there was an application 2014 there was an application there's a history of applications and I don't fault the property owner for trying to that are their property and neither do my clients and what again they proposed generally in terms of the improvements are not objectionable it's the expansion of the use it's the D1 change where you are again bring an indoor function outdors so you were taking something that sorry just to the root of your point tonight is your your objection right now is relative to the noticing which my my understanding is that that was correct that was done correctly so was go ahead I was going to say it's to the application as I reviewed it the application was completely left blank on the D1 VAR is if I'm seeking a separate and distinct use in addition to the catering all which I'm not you're asking for a modification of the catering hall is in non-conforming use at the site since the 70s outdoor ceremonies or ceremonies of any kind any kind are a accessory component of a catering facility and they were prohibited in the 1985 decision of the board and you're seeking to modify that now correct okay I'm my concern is always that where was the enforcement of the non-conforming use for this period of time since he's been using it for these number of years since he's owned it that is there a record of an objection to his use that's been that would be able to be provided to the board whether it's legal action or whether it's negotiations or something that that we know that this has been a ongoing problem for a long period of time so I can only speak to what my clients have experienced since they moved in right and since they moved in they have complained they filed complaints with the Municipal Court they were adjudicated and found in FA favor of my clients they've recently filed more complaints with Poli you say in favor was the the they were found at fault they were defend the sum and there was a judgment by the assume they were fined or whatever it was how long ago was [Music] that roughly right 2020 2020 is co co before or after Co after have to SAR have to be SW later on yeah but um yeah I think councelor did you first say I'm just a moment ago you said you almost didn't have an objection to some of the other issues except the D1 portion of this through I've walked through a lot of but you made a mention of the fact that the driving of that circular driveway was infringing on sound and movement towards your client's properties so there was there you made a mention of the fact that that's also a an issue for the so historically was and to the again I mean full transparency the property owner has been considerate in what they've done for the Landscaping along that side Landscaping is great for light Landscaping is wonderful for like you can create landscape areas the sound does not Escape that the sound goes right over that the sound bounces up trees the sound boun bounces up Mr chair completely inaccurate so what as far as the application before the board is concerned we have sound attenuation wol he's not an acoustical engineer neither am I I don't we can't make that determination until we see Tony of the other professionals absolutely he should have an opportunity to rebut the profession objection regarding Noti is on the record Mr capiz why you proceed sorry the objection to correct uh Mr Regan sorry to disc correct that the objection is to the application itself that submit to this bur is deficient on Space okay that's on the record too yeah okay and if uh Mr wishes to proceed I obviously can't stop so the notice you don't have an issue with I'm not waiting my notes you have an objection to the notice I an objection to the no okay and you have an objection to the application yeah Mr cap this is your call all Reser I understand that right feel like we're watching a personal injury commercial having rep having represented landu sports for about 40 years okay there are two things I never like an issue when a hearing starts and this is not the start of the hearing it's the second hearing one is the issue of notice and two is the composition of the boardin his professionals do you want to proceed even with that notice issue hanging out there or do you want to attempt to resolve with Mr Cool the notice and provide a new notice and so you don't spend the next six months uh uh uh proceeding with this application spending your client's money and time and then having a judge sending it back because the notice was inadequate that's your I don't agree that I need a D1 varing number one okay okay if was to amend my notice to say if the board were to find that the applicants request to have outdoor ceremonies necessitated D1 relief right and granted that D1 bearings are you now going to have me start my presentation all over again or am I doing my new notice able to make I just don't see it being a D1 variance I see it a modification of a condition prohibiting outdoor ceremonies right so the use is the same it's just you can't under the 1985 application for decision you can't have outdoor ceremonies so but it's still a catering facility agree but again but I'm just saying do you want to proceed tonight with that issue hanging out there and possibly wasting your clients time and money well I don't want to waste anyone's time okay but you're cool but my my my point to Mr Cool is if we take a recess and if I republish new notes and then if I fill out the one page of the application can I start my case from where I am today and then resolve these two procedural issues because if his answer is in the affirmative we'll take the opportunity we'll take the break we'll come see you in a month clean do the housekeeping from a procedural perspective so we don't have to be Bob down on that issue there are plenty of other issues to get fogged down right and then we move forward but I don't want to take the recess in to start all over again I can provide him with the transcript you can read the transcript and then well aren't you bringing back your professionals that originally testified at our first meeting again because of the modifications you've already made with the exception of Mr Amani everybody else was slated to ret testify right but but then it might become important for him to testify as to what these other professionals are amending or adjusting the application to to present us so he may actually need to come back as well but so I'm not sure exactly like if you're saying we already had one meeting that that that you did provide a number of uh at least three three individuals right the applicant they'll be two out of the three are going to be recalled regardless correct my point is that their testimony is is pretty limited as to the revisions to the plan as opposed to starting the presentation over a new well I'd I'd like to be able to consult with our our board attorney before I continue to I'll take a minute with Mr can we take about a five minute break so that we could I could talk to my my board attorney that issue fine yeah if you want to carry the application we'll do that yeah good than you thank you you're on okay so Mr cool and I had an opportunity to speak outside I'll update the notice I'll update the application I'll send in modified copies of that to make sure he's in agreement with the contents of the modified notice and the contents of the modified application assuming we get to an agreement on that we'll publish new notice update the application accordingly and then those procedural issues as to the notice in the application so you don't want to proceed quick question what are you going to update on the notice I'm going to put some language in there it'll say if the board were to find the if the board feels that the inclusion of outdoor ceremonies quality triggers a need for D1 variance relief the applicant seeks that relief if reasonable could the board make that determination right now no I have oh okay I have question decision the determination of whether or not the accessory use is going to require a D1 or not because that it's not it's my opinion it's not a D1 I agree with you that's that would alleviate the well no he needs to he needs to protect his client by providing that nose I would just say to the board you know I I think de in my clients I think it is something that we would be given an opportunity to at least address whether or not it constitutes a change in use as opposed to an accessory to a continued use but I also feel that it's very important to understand why has it not been brought to the attention of the board or the town or to the whoever you know why is this continued to be allowed if it is not legal to well the board the board is not enforcement agency right we're not an enfor but we need to inquire as maybe why it hasn't been and then if we get more information we'll have we'll be armed with more information as to what and be able to make a more educated decision agre yeah certainly and we we'll be happy to provide that testimony throughout the uh remainder of the hearings um you know we have several residents that are here that can testify to the time that's been going on and what they've done to alleviate that issue certainly if that's what the board wants to hear we think provide that did you did someone one of the two attorneys made a mention of some kind of court case that has been brought up and somebody has been fined why don't why isn't that information going to be provided to us or will it be it should it should be yeah it will be it's part of the part of your objection package and you know again um unfortunately due to my late retention here I didn't have a time to brief this and I would I would have submitted this you know couple weeks out as opposed to you know the shocking approach here um so apologize to members of the board that this is not presented to you fully flushed out with the case law and the facts um but certainly I appreciate SP being amenable to allowing us to address this in its totality so that we don't have um right have I think it's the right move well my second concern I assume there's no objection to the composition of the board and professionals not here and just to address uh something Mr capy did mention um we have no issue with a continuation of this hearing as opposed to restarting the hearing okay I would re uh reserve the right to call the applicant property owner um just as to a limited scope as to the time frame in which outdoor ceremonies have been he's here I'm sure Mr capisi will make them available for cross examination right appreciate that good um obviously the applicant gives the board an extension of time until the next available date I I know you have open your so where we're going Mr kizzy we'll need till Christmas if we're Lu or more we can always open up the old pan matter for meeting space as long as it's not outdo as long as it's not Outdoors right open bar I mean we got to make sure it's not Outdoors but if we could try to I don't know I understand the agenda maybe getting quite busy uh to the extent that we can certainly open up time for this so we can move along with the application we certainly appreciate that that's my concern what's the next meeting September September 11th September 11th wow continue have okay that's that's a far variance be in that and also I just like I said ear I won't be able to make the 7 September 11th meeting and I might not be able to make it either it's tax season I got a family obligation in Boston I'm probably going to have a problem with October meeting oh me too I say I say Christmas I think now we're into the spring so September seems unlikely du to uh attendance yeah hopefully Charlie moves from his house and he can retake the Chairman's chair so that he doesn't have to be recused and it doesn't have to be on my plate res I'm going to be Charlie you sell your house Charlie I'm kind of so it'll close by one last question for any of those documents that we were just talking about the any of the complaints the court documentation can you make sure that we get that to Diane maybe at least two weeks before the meeting so we have time to look at it other words we get it handed to us and Y clear just this is more a use issue than is there a possibility that when you provide changes to your application that they could somehow be highlighted so that we don't have to read through the whole entire you know literature to find oh like on page seven you know Mr Tel or Mr Lazarus testify send a letter indicating summarizing the change Mr Mr Tel did provide that with this engineering plan set okay we just didn't get to it right part of your package we just didn't it's his fault yeah it is he's he's wrong I mean he's wrong on many many different reasons okay all right to the I can call out the uh revisions to the plan set in Su in a summary format we'll certainly do would that would be helpful and the transcript we get it today transcript will be provide that'd be great so as far as a new date should we set it for uh we September 11th okay application will be continued to September 11th September 11th right Dian would we do the first application first and then this one second we would just have to split the night because the the five Parker Place is going to be I don't think I think it's going to be a short it's a far variance yeah so what does that mean well once we're done with the administration we would split whatever time is left till the end of 10:30 for each application like we've done before so we would we would say uh let's say from 7:30 at about an hour and a half an hour and a half each that's okay better and then they would they would have the the uh priority over the next uh the November application the SE sorry the October application it kind of all falls into plays to when the other applications are completed and ready for a deal ready to come right but would something like this where we have an application that needs to continue into October would the other applications that come in be put on sort of on hold or smaller application so I think we could do something like this evening bring in the smaller application that wouldn't take as much time they're residential par the rest of the evening okay so they they don't have to wait this right right yeah that would make sense okay there are also time frames under the statute we have to be aware of 120 days upon you know completion okay so we have to be aware of that that's why the applicants typically give you extensions and when these little applications are getting closer to those dates we need to dispose most of those usually get finished in one night us okay if there happens to be in conversations an opportunity for a special meeting date if you could keep this applicant in mind we certainly appreciate the opportunity have some time on that meeting okay and if I'm thinking really outside the box is it a chance the two of you can resolve this the issues that you have we'll certainly have a discussion we have in the past it's a otherwise it's tax time you'll finish application tax time April 50th right why don't we do it one in March and one in April go okay perfect yeah nice try right thank you we'll see you in September okay enjoy the rest of the summer guys do we have to open any questions from the public no no no witness tesy it's on the record he doesn't have toce correct do a re that was the with wife yeah this how we get into TR items not on the agenda right gone till 10:30 wasted 2 hours and that was my point like what a waste of time happen you mean it would have been worse if we started hearing it again better it would have been worse if because the issue of notice is still out there right and then it would have had to then been yeah eight or 10 months from now a judge can say the notice screwed up you got isn't it better to make them it's better deal with it now I'm sorry primary function ceremonies I it I understand now Charlie you coming back up you sure thank you i' like to open the meeting to the public for any other nonest non agenda items do we hear a motion motion second I saw Mr Mr syri favor I I okay seeing none I'd like to close the meeting close the motion for uh public to have a say so move okay and if there's no objection I'm going to call this meeting uh closed Clos all in favor I I I meeting close way to go Nick I got off the yeah  natural Charlie I'm buying you a house