maybe maybe maybe so did yard this weekend exem I mean you know I always tell my kids my neighbor he is first time met him he passed away now but he was not time that's what I I I SP I SP a good three hours Sunday afterno just Ching way stuff I would take a little break here and there but hey you didn't get charged good but I don't mind going I I I actually enjoy the ride out to Geneva going to you got a tra you got a truck I used to have access to trucks and all that stuff and now I'm like just not so actually you putting on the jacket looking all professional well sure count to me you guys can do what you want looks very clean I don't think you wearing it very much anymore think yeah but then it's but it it was a cool piece of property right in the river well we would go there during the week when when we were in college and no no one else was there and we would just go there and have a little modire and hang out and it was just that live at the I'd much rather Riv I'd rather be on a river he could talk to me I haven't been to the know like like the Barbie sweatshirt yeah got a whole theme happening here every time I yeah sure I was a '90s kid so you know I do feel a little old though that my generation is now coming back that's when they say you feel old right it starts repeating oh is that when it happens yeah oh it's good to enough so this is the first time we've repeated so what's that what I have so you would not then we going come back and LC actually was oh there like too much crap on it if it's empty then I don't start moving Stu it's not I think got to get September it is embarrassing some people never forget and it is keep your mind yeah yeah I know keeps coming yes getting stuck out of the proler all I got stuck I got stuck in the and you got stuck in the there's an easy way not to get stuck in the pre and that is to never have anybody no put the signs out what are the signs for sale I was leaving hey how are you just the mud just TI I just couldn't get I had four they keep I just want to see how how they're going to get the the train out even with the even the they still keeping the train there at one point Arthur said they were going to keep the train there when they did but but talked to the attorney and so I think the attorne but in the they're going to practice over and F out the back until they can get everything straight down so we got the their insurance paperwork over un mine doesn't yeah it was all about the trash but anyways it's so I I got all the information G the Le and so they they can figure the rest of it out but I really appreciate your help thank you so much so one first bar I think they used we had last chur dance dan haven't done that since College defitely Monday night the that's what it was called like once a month every Monday they would when I was they actually had a l dancing class a real mind dancing it was part of it was like your PE C you take it's like a workout I don't remember any of them anymore but I used to know but some of them have changed over time yeah they do they but I was about six months ago I was over at Cowboys and they were still playing songs back when I used to go and um I Haven Cowboy since I don't know high school I went oh that's fine with a friend we went over there and not the same I got popcorn and everything man on the city agenda for for Monday the the res reconsider very detailed this and the the it is don't look at that one what's happening man doing all right good good recovered from yesterday you mean like the last year I could use like a I don't know was it like a big relief when it was done I don't know feel like it's still going now I got follow who are the people playing poker upstairs who are people playing poker upstairs no idea I didn't even know there was people playing po did you know there was a poker table up there I knew that for the group yeah there was like four people up there playing poker that's that's pretty funny I had no idea I did Blackjack and roulette the cop table was a little [Laughter] F now I know that no I was upstairs at the barn and they had a poker table and there was like four people playing so funny I had no idea oh that's a great question how much revenue see that's why I'm like I have no idea anybody's playing I didn't even know what happened so who knows oh my goodness colan was there too he did he stopped by maybe he didn't go upstairs and see the illegal gambling [Laughter] okay all right so we got 5:30 are we ready all right call this work session in order all members of council are here we will open it up to public [Music] comment seeing none we will close public comment and we on to the order of the business update of Mobility Mobility plan and Mobility fee Mr cop uh thank you deputy mayor uh tonight we have this is a work session we're hoping that we're this is the final work session so that we can we can move forward with adoption uh Jonathan Paul who our consultant is here tonight to do one last review of our Mobility plan and the mobility fees that have been generated through the technical study that he has prepared uh tonight we are looking for direction on three things uh one being the uh adoption of the Mobility plan and the other being the uh that we move forward with a demonstration of extraordinary circumstances in accordance with Florida statute and Jonathan will be able to tell you more about that uh and then also the application of the 25% mixed use develop mixed use discount that we discussed at the lack work session we just want to make sure that we're going down the right path as we finalize this report and bring the ordinance forward uh you noticed in your budget impact on memorandum that if we do do the extraordinary circumstances which we are recommending that we will need an additional $35,000 to uh to to complete that process it does involve a couple of work sessions that we need to do uh in order be prior to adoption of the fee but the thing that we look at is that we want to be able to establish the fee rather than being five years down the road going into a new technical study and only being at a 50% the fee and we feel that that's going to put us too far behind uh we'll never really catch up and when you're going from a what we call consumption based fee which is what our current fee is it's based on consumption to a Mobility fee that's got all kinds of different things in it regarding transportation and Roads and and and bike trail uh now shared use paths all those different things in it that the consumption B base fee wasn't based on there is a huge difference in what you're trying to do and so we would ask that you give us the uh Direction tonight to move forward under with extraordinary circumstances and I'll turn it over to Mr Paul and let him uh give his presentation all right thank you all very much Jonathan Paul principal of new Urban Concepts I'm going to go through this first part relatively quickly please feel free if you have questions stop and ask me because some of these things we have discussed before but if there's anything that you want me to clarify you want to discuss further please uh please feel free to to do so um essentially the Mobility plan and Mobility fee is a vision over the next 22 years for how people businesses and visitors are going to move around the city of um Ido and the plan itself is a basis for what's known as a Mobility fee um this Mobility fee is intended to replace both the city's existing impact fee and seal Cy's Mobility fee and it allows for new development to mitigate their impact through a one-time payment to the city um the focus of the plan itself is all modes of transportation whether people are walking bicycling riding Transit using a new technology or driving their vehicle um there are roadway projects in this plan there are intersection projects there are Pathways there are sidewalks there's something for all modes of transportation these are just some of the steps there's actually a detailed technical report it's about 220 pages in length that goes through each one of these calculations and each one of these steps to demonstrate how we came about the plan and the fee um essentially the the plan itself is really a way for the city to move forward with multimodal projects within the uh the city on County Roads state roads and City owned roadways it is intended to replace Transportation concurrency proportionate share and both City Impact fees and County Mobility fees and I believe about a year and a half ago this city updated its comprehensive plan amendment to essentially lay out that process that if and when you all decide to take an action on a Mobility fee essentially it would replace concurrency any transportation concurrency exception area policies and proportionate share and it does provide a revenue source for the city to fund multimodal projects streets of the past really prioritize movement of vehicles um whether they go quickly from point A to point B uh prioritize longer trips really focused on moving cars um streets of the future is something that's envisioned in your comprehensive plan prioritizing lower speeds encour Charing accessibility of land uses uh goal of zero deaths in the transportation system and really something that's designed for all modes of transportation and really the communities more and more are realizing that you can't build your way out of capacity um there's no Community globally that's been able to accomplish this uh even upwards to the scale of China they have roads that are 50 and 60 Lanes in width and they're all packed um more closely in the US you have Houston with the KD freeway I think it's the biggest freeway in the US and has roughly 24 Lanes of travel they um it was sold to relieve congestion make it safer and get people quicker from point A to point B it did the reverse more accidents worse congestion and people are actually driving slower so more and more people are realizing you have to think differently about your system that it's not just roadways that are going to help you people Mo move around in the future that leads us to the actual Mobility plan itself um there's a mixture of both on Street improvements for bicycle facilities for golf carts um there are a few of these I would actually say the majority of the improvements proposed in the plan are actually off Street facilities I think that's something consistent with uh your comprehensive plans the direction that we've been given to focus on protected bicycle facilities multi-use Trails shared Ed Pathways then eventually potentially even accommodating an autonomous circulator some type of um golf tart type vehicle that provides circulation but something other than just um a motor vehicle to get around in the community and so there's a major component of the plan itself is what we referring to as the streets plan and this identifies the future roadway projects roadway widenings um connectivity improvements within the city and also we looked at a broader area because this is replacing the County's fee uh we looked all the way down to the Orange County Line we looked all the way over to the the mall into 417 and all the way out to the U the urban rural boundary out to the East and so there are projects both within the core part of the city and then also there projects that have been identified on the long range plan or in the county these Transportation plans as needing to be improved over the next 20 years and this is just sort of a little bit CL thought I had one on the um the city so the um the plan itself details and documents each one of these projects provides a cost provides a capacity and provides a projected time frame for those improvements the plan itself also includes a multimodal component largely focused on existing Trails Trails um adding shared use Pathways and those shared use Pathways could be constructed in conjunction with the new roadway or built as a separate Standalone facility and these go throughout the uh core part of the city on Alexandria Boulevard and the way we sort of structured the plan itself the plan gives a vision for the type of facility But ultimately when you go out there Corridor by Corridor you're going to do a survey you're going to do utility location you're going to do RightWay delineation storm water there's a whole host of factors that impact how a roadway actually gets designed and so the the plan really gives a guidance and sort of a recommendation but ultimately there are multiple ways to achieve the same outcome this is just sort of an example on Alexandria Boulevard one could be as simple as replacing the existing side walks out there with 8ft shared use paths those could accommodate golf carts scooters bicycles and pedestrians another option is to basically reduce the outside lanes and provide a raised dedicated Bicycle Way golf cart facility um different types of modes of travel within your existing roadway another option is to put a raise median out on that Corridor and provide shared use Pathways adjacent to your sidewalk and then the way the roadway is structured itself the fourth option would be a two-lane divided section and you'd actually have a protected Bice way adjacent to the curb so it actually be elevated from travel any one of these are viable options and the ultimately the final design may be some combination of those um Ovito Boulevard we've included various plans and again these are what theoretically could be designed um um and could be proposed along that Corridor and if you were to accomplish two shared used Pathways separated from the roadway without a removal of parking that's what the plan reflects um ultimately there may be some parking that has to be replaced there may be some sections where you don't have adequate right of way but in essence this sort of sets the guidance for that Corridor ultimately would actually have to go into design and come up with a final cross-section So the plan sets a a vision for these corridors but ultimately there's other steps that have to go along in terms of a more detailed design study and then it would be brought back before both your staff and the council itself to actually have those voted on there's also a number of intersection projects that are identified throughout the city uh including proposed roundabouts um and there's also so uh at least a provision there to study again in the future the possibility of another interchange out at 417 and Winter Springs Boulevard um that's something that you know longer term could be needed could also be done in conjunction with one of our plan recommendations which is a PD and study for Mitchell hammock on what ultimately could be done in that coridor either to the corridor itself or a parallel facility um one unique feature of this Mobility plan is kind of the first time I've done one of these as part of the Mobility plan itself um there were certain roadway corridors ident throughout identified throughout the city um some of them were potentially problematic with the existing development patterns or future development um and so one thing we we're tasked to look at is is there a way to make still some type Ty of vehicular connection between commercial Parcels of land and that's really what this plan envisions is how do you retrofit your built environment today um not necessarily a brand new roadway but these could be cross access connections could be Drive aisles could be extension of parking lots it it really provides another way to move around without having to get back out onto a 434 or back out onto a Mitchell hammock and this would really be a tool for your staff to use in terms of as you come in for development review you have negotiations with developers and say what about this access here what about this potential connection here is that something that could be made then down to the South there's also something that's going to require coordination with yourself the county and the school board but another way to get an alternative to Chapman and 434 is kind of a back Loop roadway or connection um to the school to actually help relieve some of the traffic uh that's occurring at that intersection at Chapman 434 um was something that we also don't normally do at this level of detail either but for some of the major corridors we actually identified where your sidewalk gaps are and what side of the roadway they are and how long they are so the light blue actually identifies the gaps in your network today and these tend to be they're not your arterials your major roadways but they tend to be a little bit higher order um City Street Lake Jessup probably one of the you know biggest examples this sort of gives a a vision of if you're going to fund gaps and close some of the gaps in your sidewalk system these would be your priority projects to look at first there are also a number of projects that are both potenti controversial um or ones that we believe that would have a a good opportunity to discuss with the county uh for areas that could either be annexed into the city in the future or that are within unincorporated County today that could potentially have an impact um there is really no planning whatsoever that's been done in terms of multimodal or roadway improvements within the unincorporated part portion of the county east of 417 so the only projects that they've really been identified is slavia Road 426 434 some of the major state roads but you've got a lot of land just in the couple years I've been working here that's being redeveloped in the county or being developed in the county um your community does have an issue with connectivity and a need for greater connectivity U so I think there's some opportunities to both communicate with the county in the future for better planning for those areas around the city and then also there are some more controversial projects that if you want them to be considered in the future there's a lot more community outreach that need to be done before those uh you can only solve so much at a Mobility plan level but if you want to pursue some of these this map sort of memorializes those projects and if in the future there is a discussion to have whether it be traffic caling connectivity or discussion with the county this sort of lays out some of those projects that are out there this is not included in the fee this is not included in the plan it's not an adopted map but really it's something to document um corridors that have been discussed or you know ideas that are out there for future planning how did the traffic caling streets get determined pardon me how did the traffic caling streets get determined on this those were corridors that we originally looked at that had other connectivity improvements being proposed from them and because of those other connectivity improvements there was sort of a need to slow down potentially the traffic on those one I think would be an extension of Chapman or lake Hayes going into the community in the South there and if that were done you'd want to have some type of traffic coming to go into that if you're introducing a new roadway connection into a community that's already been developed um so we've sort of left those in there um if you want to take those out we could certainly do so but all these would be subject to much more studying community outreach if you were to move forward with those okay and these are just some of the other follow-up programs uh your 10-year Mobility plan had recommended several of these um our plan recommends several also the Mobility plan is really the first big step but there are going to be other implementation procedures whether for projects themselves or other programs that the city may want to pursue um in terms of looking at mobility in the future that brings us to the actual Mobility fee calculation itself um we did look at a larger study area than just the city um because this is replacing the county fee essentially the the row is that you see there bordering it and that black sort of outline evaluates the full extent of the are that we looked at in terms of traffic in terms of mitigation in terms of identifying improvements the blue area is roughly your city boundaries today the orange area is a study area so any projects that were annexing into the city in the future you wouldn't necessarily have to update this map or assessment area each time essentially as any projects were Annex in the city it would automatically then become part of the assessment area for the mobility fee so this is really just not saying you're going to Annex this much in the future but this is what we looked at in terms of studying um that way each time you have an annexation technically you should be updating these Maps but this allows you not to have to go through that process um the other areas we looked at is what's the benefit district and because we evaluated all the way out to mullik and this whole area um this will eventually be a discussion between the city and county is within this area the mobility fee could be used to fund any portion of a county project or state road project so if you had a project on a mccullock or on a 434 or a slavia extension outside the city and you wanted to share potential share the the revenue with the county in terms of helping to advance those projects this allows you to do that if we don't have this map in there the only thing you could actually spend it on would be within the city itself but because we looked at a broader area this gives you the the flexibility to spend projects outside of City Limits and this is the actual technical report itself there's a whole host of calculations that go into calculating the mobility fee that we've come up with um we also did a pretty extensive evaluation of traffic not only within the core part of the city but where does that traffic go throughout all of semino County to kind of get an idea of it um the County's current study essentially assumes everything in the county either flows into Altimont Springs or flows up to Sanford and back in just three or four years ago you all made comments to the county that that wasn't necessarily didn't feel that was the case um that's not necessarily how travel mov moves and how people move so we actually wanted to make sure that we had documentation in here to justify that and substantiate it and what it did show us is a large part of the traffic generated from Ido or attracted to Ido actually stays in that broader area so in some respects I will say that Ovito functions as a downtown for Eastern seminal County not just the city of avito but all of Eastern seal County and part of that's just the data itself just from the pure Mobility study area 49% of the trips generated in that area stay in there and another 18% go down to Orange County so that roughly means that red core area there roughly 50% of the travel stays within that red core area goes to from those uses places of worship school what have you the trips actually stay in the area or they head Sou South down into Orange County which is roughly 18% we also looked even further just taking for example the the downtown district itself which should be number 36 there um roughly 48% of the traffic stays within the core area 20% of it goes down into Orange County that's roughly 67 68% within the overall study area is 62% and then actually from the bigger perspective of the the blue zones to travel to and from those blue zones equates to 94% of all travel generated to and from that District so that's not necessarily going out to Sanford it's not going out to Altimont it's largely staying in and around the city of lito so that leads us actually to the mobility fee calculations themselves so one of the um and I'm kind of just going to go go into this in a little bit of detail part of this is the basis for um extraordinary circumstances or something else in terms of how you wanted to do your the fee itself um so the very first example um the city I don't believe has an affordable um residential fee itself but the county does and so the County's fee is $2,100 per dwelling unit the city's lowest fee or it's its uniform fee is $1,600 for a residential dwelling unit we calculated a Mobility fee for affordable residential uses um and actually that should say per dwelling not per thousand square feet because we actually made it per the dwelling and it's $2,700 so it's actually a 28% reduction from what it is today so for affordable housing um that would essentially equate to a 28% reduction the caveat is and and there's a couple of these fee categories that fall into this the city itself needs to establish criteria for what it deems is Affordable and you may already have it either in your comp plan or you may have it in your ldrs are we talking single family detached residential you're talking affordable single family detached residential well this one example this the category itself is Affordable residential doesn't matter if it's single family multif family town home Villa it's just it's a reduced overall rate per dwelling unit and so the city itself I don't know if you have criteria for affordable uh residential or not but if you if you wanted to have that and you establish criteria for and somebody met it they can pay this lower fee if you elect not to have it established the reduction wouldn't apply so it's something that a lot of local governments like to have an option it isn't saying you're going to qualify for it upfront but if you do qualify for it um the fee would already be calculated for you so we're talking 2728 versus 7501 is that well so you'd have like a the actual significant difference it would actually be 3,800 so the county does have a fee for affordable housing and then the city has its flat fee today so that fee that unit to this is pre us having a Mobility fee because I think he's looking confused too I think that's the resal fee that's not the affordable what you've got up there the 28% reduction that's the residential that's just a ordinary residential that'll be the very first one the AFF 44 the affordables 44% 44% okay all right that was I was sorry okay cuz I'm just trying to read from off of here make sure we're we're all following you look at look at attachment 10 and you'll see what Jonathan's talking about uh with the with the individual fees what's up on his screen right now is the basic residential fee not the affordable and but the affordable discount is actually higher show all right I'll turn it back to all right no you're all right and I'm sorry about that I thought I had a um I've had a couple different versions of the slide um um may actually be the so actually the 28% reduction then is actually of the fee today for a residential use per thousand square feet so if you had a a th000 square foot single family home that came in today the calculated Mobility fee is actually 28% less than what it is between both the city's fee and the County's fee but because it's based on a per square foot basis if you go up to the next level all right that should I apologize this um it should actually be 2200 foot the second example is a 2200 foot house the fee is actually 37% higher than what it is today so the way the residential works is today it's per dwelling unit doesn't matter if it's a th000 square foot or a 5,000 foot house it pays the same rate under this scenario it goes to a square footage basis so lower square footage would pay less higher square footage would pay more in terms of residential um the County's fee is somewhat similar but they just they have three tiers under 1500 square feet 1500 square feet to 24.99 and then 2500 square F feet and above um and so that last example is 2500 ft and above if you had a 27 2,750 foot house um the fee would be $7,500 which would be a 42% increase um I will take this point say some local governments have elected to adopt a cap for how much it's going to be assessed at others have said it can go to whatever it is so if you have a 10,000 foot house you pay for 10,000 square ft um some communities say say 3500 Square ft is reasonable 4500 square fet it's really ends up being a policy decision at that point others just allow the fee to be whatever the fee is per square foot um so that is something to think about give us Direction about that in the future whether or not do they ever do it based on like number of rooms or the average number of people who live in a house so we've looked at at it and I've looked at a number of times based on the number of bedrooms when you're dealing with multifam It's relatively easy to define a bedroom because you have a contractor usually building a multif family unit when it comes single family it gets very difficult um because technically a bedroom has a closet and it's designed for habitable space and a lot of times you'll have people say well I don't have a closet in it it's on a bedroom or what have you so it does become problematic on a bedroom basis um that's one of the reasons a lot of communities have looked at the square footage basis I and again it's another way of also addressing I don't know if there's been a push for tiny homes or smaller homes in this community or not some communities are actively pushing for it but it does actually recognize that a smaller home has less of an impact larger homes tend to have a greater impact in terms of overall travel for multifam for a th000 square feet um for a one and two story multi family residential I think those are larg would be duplexes um your fee today of the cities is $1,155 the county is $1,600 the combined total is 2,800 for the multif family under this fee calculation it doesn't matter what type of residential you are it's 2728 per thousand so you can be a villa you can be a town home you can be whatever new nomenclature comes out there in the development industry but if you're a residential unit it's the same rate per thousand square feet so this calculation happens to be roughly 3% less than a uh a duplex Tesa do you you all consider town home single family here though yeah have attached single family okay so this would for the most part be um duplex type of style or Triplex something that's one or two stories your general apartment that you see the three or four story apartment um the city's fee today is $859 the county is 1,200 combined together that's $2,000 the mobility fee itself would be $2700 that's a 30% increase um the reason you don't necessarily see this in schedule is because the impact fee itself is just a flat rate for residential but I just wanted to point this out to you all in terms of how it is assessed versus the different types of residential that you may see coming in to the community and as I'm sorry that that right I got us ahead of myself so the affordable residential is a 44 uh % reduction so is a pretty significant uh reduction in terms of the overall fee if you all decide to go down that path again residentials per thousand square feet um for the hotel fee it's roughly 41% higher than what it is today um for mobile residents I don't know that you have a whole lot of those um if anything you mostly going to have replacement of a mobile home uh for areas that probably Annex but the fee itself is 97% higher and you'll see any of the fees that are above 50% it's because the actual trip generation itself that we use on a national basis changed so the actual trip generation for mobile home parks change it used to roughly be about four trips per unit in the most recent one it's seven and a half so it's almost like a single family home so you've got a couple of categories where the fees it's like everything's sort of under 50% % but then a few of them are really high that's because there was actually a change in the underlying land use itself and so had they' actually been calculated again um you know had your Fe been updated with the same trip generation manual those differences would be a lot less so are you saying from when we began this process till now these numbers have changed from when your existing study so both the County's study and the the last time the city up St of this fee there was a different trip generation manual so this fee we're using the latest one those are based on the 10th edition of it this is using the 11th so anywhere where you see those big bump UPS that's because the actual trip generation itself change for that land use and I I I will um ultimately you're looking at just numbers on a screen here but the comparison it's actually between three different fees three different Consultants three different methodologies so you you had a city fee that was done in based on 2017 data adopted in 2019 uses one methodology one consultant you had accting study that was done over a number of years it was adopted in 2020 different methodology different basis different consultant then you have the feed that I've done so yes yes the dollar numbers are there but the underlying comparison they're very different each one of these studies so it's not a land use is an Apples to Apples a dollar amount is a finite defined value but how you get to that dollar amounts very different amongst the studies so that's part of the reason why you see some fees have 0% increase some have a 5% reduction 10% reduction others have a 30% there's underlying factors that are changed and there's just fundamental differences in methodology as well um for Community serving fee which would be your places of worship Museum Performing Arts um the fee is 45% higher um today between the city and the county uh for long-term care which would be your nursing homes your assisted living facilities it's 24% increase and for private education it's a 14% increase all the examples I'm providing are based on the fully calculated Mobility fee there is another category for mixed use the mixed use is a 25% reduction from the fully calculated fee so any of these comparisons for mixed use some of them may be higher some well none of them are going to be higher than the mobility fee but all these percentages will be different if you are comparing the mixed use part of that so just the mixed use component that I'm using um or not using so you see the example just for Community serving um roughly 2400 4,000 square feet if it was part of a mixed use development or mixed use structure it would be $1,800 per th square feet uh for industrial uses which sort of encompasses a broad range of all spaces um there's roughly a 5% increase in the fee today neither the city or the county has it advertised but if it actually came in I guess so one example it's probably been here for a long time be your golf driving range um but if you actually had an outdoor activity like that or somebody did um commercial tennis courts commercial Sports Complex I'm not sure if you've seen it a lot but there are a lot of communities where um Eco tourism or Sports tourism is becoming a big component so you actually have developers coming in there building entire Sports complexes but you actually have to pay for them they're not a public park they're not a public facility but they'll have ball fields they'll have tennis courts they'll have swimming they'll have a whole host of functions so that's really when I say commercial recreation this isn't isn't a park isn't an outdoor this is if somebody's charging somebody to go to an outdoor Amusement outdoor facility Golf Course Tennis Court Drive range if you have to pay for it uh indoor commercial is a little bit easier it's a gym it's a dance studio it's um some type of fitness facility um and that's roughly a 5% reduction from what the city and county charge today um office uses are 32% higher U medical uses are are 19% higher as partially due to some of the trip generation changes for office uses themselves um small retail this is something that the city's going to have to define the fee is pre-calculated for you some communities like to establish criteria for local businesses or small businesses um part of it came out of the covid-19 and trying to have other programs to help local businesses out there so communities that establish that and you want to Grant a lower fee it's B calculated for you and it's roughly a 23% reduction from the lowest impact fees charged by the county and city today you don't have a a small business today County doesn't have a small business today so that number reflects the lowest retail rate that both of them would pay together and that fee itself is still 23% lower than that so somebody would have to qualify to be able to use that rate it's not something that's automatically granted for just straight retail fee is almost the exact same um high impact fee fee retail which is your grocery stores your wine spirits that number is so high because basically the trip generation itself doubled when from 50 everyone started drinking more yeah out of Co that's probably true um but in essence the data was always there they just decided to recognize that supermarket are much higher generators than the surrounding uses um so that fee is really reflective of change in chip Generation Um convenience retail is also a change in chip generation itself that's roughly a 24% increase over the fee today well go back to that what was the difference between financial and Bank you have retail financial and then you have high impact retail bank so so a bank would be your typical Bank Financial be stock broker or some type of other financial transaction mortgage broker I mean is it necessarily a financial use it's kind of a a gray area some people consider just a straight office use or they'll consider those a financial institution how how big is a public so I'm looking at this think you if it's 50,000 50,000 feet yeah 40 5 to 50,000 okay because that's like a $790,000 Mobility impact fee I mean that I mean interesting to put into the real number they generate 100 trips per thousand square feet so I mean they there are bigger you know so generally the high impact retail your Banks your pharmacies your wine and spirits they all generate roughly a 100 trips per thousand square feet um most retail uses generate 40 trips per thousand so these are almost double the rate the same thing that you see with the office component medical uses generate three times as many trips as regular office use and and that's partially reflected here in the fee and of course convenience retail generates the highest of all of them um we are proposing and this is something that's you know you don't necessarily have to in if you don't want to include but um more and more we see banks are downsizing or getting smaller and they're going to either just drive through Lanes only or Standalone ATMs um or you know they're getting a very small footprint those ATMs still generate a lot of trips um so some communities are electing to adopt a fee that would be per either freestanding driveth through ATM or per drive through Lane for a bank um and that'd be roughly 1,500 uh per facility that is a brand new fee it's not something the county or the city assess today um car washes are a real big generator um so this would be a new fee this would be $116,000 uh per lane or stall for that car wash uh vehicle fueling part of this large increase on the fee is because of underlying trip generation self change as well that's per fuel pump um motor vehicle service facilities the prior fee used to just be based on a single study for a quick lube the updated trip generation included several new categories um so that actually resulted in a reduction so think about think of your uh your tire super store or your your quick lube or your your General Auto Repair um you know they don't tend to generate a whole lot of trips they generate a decent amount but they stay there a little bit longer so data showed that there was actually a reduction in trips from that um the the new biggest one another new one is um quick service drive- through restaurants and what's starting to happen in the industry is either they're no longer having sit down restaurant at a um a Taco Bell or a coffee shop building Footprints themselves are getting smaller but the number of driveth through Lanes is increasing um so I've actually there's a couple of them that are going on in Florida right now it's a roughly 700 to 800 foot Taco Bell with four drive-through Lanes no seating no window nothing everything's done either by your phone or order and pick up and it actually is two stories and it comes down from the top like a a bank calor food comes down and that's a trend there's um a new coffee shop from out west that's coming through I think it's called drive-thru it's a Sim mod model that's 600 square fet um 700 sare F feet and it's drive-thru on both sides of it do you know where one of these Taco Bells is in Florida I mean this sounds it'll be it'll be into Sarasota County and Palm Beach County okay thank you so they're um they're real so so each one of these uses the reason I'm putting here is if you just base it on the building footprint the building Footprints are getting very small but the actual impact of the itself you know so the the convenience resale seems like a big number the quick service restaurant seems like a big number but you know those actually buildings unless you're bues um I don't know if you ever heard of bues or not their gas stations are huge but in general the trend is actually getting smaller with more facilities to be provided as opposed to getting larger uh there's a couple of them out there that are bucking that Trend but um you I think the there one and one being planned in noala right now bues they have 100 drive-thru or they have 100 fueling positions and I believe there's one up in Daytona now as well and if you ever if you've ever been in Texas they're all out in the Texas area and they actually have a smaller bies as well but most other places are getting smaller as opposed to getting larger Jonathan do you charge the square footage and the additional so you charge for for both you charge for both the building itself and for the additional impact or if somebody comes in and does a freestanding or an addition to a drive-thru they would be assessed for that so if you have a Chick-fil-A or McDonald's somebody comes in there and they want to add a second or third drive-thru Lane they would pay this fee for that additional drive-thru Lane what about charging stations that are in association with with like retail businesses because one of our um uh mitigation techniques is to have a charging station so are we going to tell somebody well you can mitigate it with the charging station but now you got to pay a fee for the charging station it's only if it's the primary commercial Enterprise use so if a gas station or say Wok's coming in and they're putting in 12 pumps that you pay for charging plus 18 fuel positions yes they would pay if you require an apartment complex to provide them in a garage they don't pay if a public or somebody willingly provides for the benefit of its customers you wouldn't pay but if it's a commercial Enterprise where they're actually charging you to pay for charging your vehicle at publs in these other places even within garages and apartment complexes they they make you pay to do this is my understanding so either way no but it's accessory right so it's not it's an accessory use but if I so I don't have a garage if if I find a place if I think I want to get an EC car I think well maybe I'll just I'll park it in the Public's parking lot I see how it could be potentially abused yeah I mean if if Tesla wanted to put their charging stations over at over mall at Sterling at Sterling Creek uh Publix you know that's you know you're starting to develop kind of a a distributed gas station you know because because you don't need the infrastructure necessarily like a a gas station where you have tanks and everything else for for electric charging stations it's something I'll talk to Tres on further defining but it's really intended to be if it's a like the primary purpose of going to there is to charge your vehicle you know and you're paying to charge your vehicle whereas if you're shopping somewhere while you're doing something else um something we can look at but you know if it's a requirement because you're trying to offset you know certainly that would be something you wouldn't charge a fee for because you're mandating it then you're basically saying you got to pay for it as well so we'll work on the the definitions of that to make sure that it's not required but generally it's intended to be and some of them are starting it now some of the gas stations are starting to also have charging stations lined up as well and you pay for those and those tend to be the Super those tend to be a little more of the superchargers where you you're really within 10 minutes 15 minutes from now you get a a pretty good charge in your vehicle and then you go on um it's not really intended to be the oneof you know Public's provided it or apartment complex provided it what have you so the extraordinary circumstances um the way statute reads right now you have your roadway impact fee today and you have the County's fee that you're proposing to replace so the combined total of those two is your Baseline fee so that's the amount paid today if you're less you can adopt that fee right away and it goes into effect if you're technically 1% above your fee the combined fee of those the way statue read you'd have to phase it in over two years so be 05% per year um none of those are that low so it's not sort reality but but any of those fees that are 25% or less you'd have to phase in over two years any of those fees that are between 25% and 50% increase you have the phas them over four years the maximum increase is 50% um you could do that today we just go forward with the ordinance take the technical report as it's written and then that's what the new fee structure would result so any of those percentages that you see were above say 50% it would be capped at the 50% rate and then it would actually you'd have a schedule that's fa bed in over four years for all these fees um we'd have to work a little bit in terms of the residential because it is based on square footage there would have to be some caps and threshold caps that are actually put in place over a fouryear period as well the other option is um adopt the fees as they're calculated in order to do that you have to go through the process of extraordinary circumstances so you have to document one why are you claiming it um two you've got to show population growth employment growth then you've actually got to detail in this instance because we have some that are lower some that are higher we actually got to go in there in detail why each one of those fees themselves are higher or lower you got to hold then you got to complete that study which should be an addendum to the the report that you see hold two public workshops um to review those findings and review the fee itself and then there's a required super majority vote of the elected body so in this instance four the five of you would have to vote for extraordinary circumstances to move forward um I will say that the extraordinary circumstances there was a a push last year to do away with it in legislation um this year there's a major Bill going through that would basically everything we're doing between the city and the county basically memorialize what's being done right now and put it into effect in terms of the city and county negotiations um and actually just got a notice today that it passes third Senate hearing and so this bill is pretty far along in the process um and it was voted for unanimously today so it's going to go on the rules committees for next week so essentially it would be memorializing the process oido is going through right now um so they're not tackling extraordinary circumstance there was a earlier Bill draft that actually was proposing to do away with it um they may bring that back next year so it's not necessarily going to say that you're going to have a chance in the future to address extraordinary circumstances and there's not necessarily a thing to say that you're going to be able to phase in these fees even if you adopt it um just in terms of the way the legislature's been going with fees every few years they've tend to change the direction of those fees so um if you wanted to go down this route I've done any host of different workshops um we've held two different meetings on two different days we've held one in the morning for the development community and for um those folks that don't work one in the evening for those folks that do work held one in person one in Virtual um they can be held any time of the day am p.m or afternoon um my most successful has been the the one in the morning the one in the the evening on the same day because you have advertisement and then all of them have been recorded and they've been placed on the city's website or social media made available to any member of the public who can't attend those meetings and still provides feedback to the community um if you do it you've got to follow the same public notice that you would for any code revision uh it's got to be noticed in the paper and then most local governments are also posting it to their social media or to their online calendar as well and so the one thing um so the other the affordable housing component the small business retail then the mixed use uh in the documentation and the report I sort of provided some guidance of how other communities have defined mixed use or left it to be up to the city itself or the county to Define its own policies so mixed use would not be granted by right it would be something that your staff would actually have to say somebody meets the standards for um and I provided three sort of General categories and then one would be the city as well I think the the city's approach is being um instead of the mixed use being defined to a geographic area it would be per development that comes in So based on development plan for vertical mixture use a mixture of uses that are adjacent to each other and interconnected it' be something that staff would take a look at and say yes you are or on mixed use or an applicant could request it I I believe on mixed use um here's my documentation saying why I'm mixed use staff can review it and then say whether you are or aren't but it is something that you know I help you all develop you all develop in house or what have you it is additional CR criteria that you have to establish uh for how somebody would qualify as mixed use and um you know the other options are you identify a geographic area and say anything within that area qualifies as well but believe at least initially um one of the reasons been going to more having local government Define it or the guidance have given developments have different time frames so you may have a residential component and it may be 10 years before the retail component comes online or vice versa but for that whole time frame you don't have really any mixed use interaction you have no reduction in trips going on um but when you have a unified development or you've got it within the building itself you know tends to be a little bit more that you going to get that up front but ultimately you got to Define that type of criteria for it so it's not as easy um to say that everybody qualifies for it but you know as a side note too though some communities have so Altimont Springs has defined all activity centers within those activity centers based on other policies they said there's a 15% reduction in trips they also have one right by the to SunRail station that's a 15% mode share reduction because of the rail service and a 15% internal capture so there are some local governments that have done it on the area there are also local governments that have done it on specific development plans I tended to give my guidance that I know really gets you to the mixed use and then also recommended to the local government it's really best for you define it based on your own criteria that works best for your comprehensive plan and so with that um kind of concludes the presentation and U so I think there's one um if you elect to not pursue extraordinary circumstances I'll go ahead and finish up my amendments to the ordinance probably within two weeks or so come back here I don't know if you do I don't know if you do a request to advertise or you just advertise your first reading of the ordinance but you'd hear the ordinance you'd have an updated schedule that shows how the fees are phased in over four years consistent with statute um if you elect to do the extraordinary circumstance it's going to take me probably about a month or so to get through and do the study the documentation for that during that time frame the public hearings could be scheduled and then we would basically provide both the document documented findings for it plus any of the outcome or any of the feedback that we receive from the public from those workshops that would be presented to you at the the first reading of the ordinance so by April we could have the extraordinary circumstances documented have the meeting and we're done and we move forward a realistic timeline documented hold the public meetings then it becomes just part of your ordinance yes so we would we would we'd have there be a whole section on extraordinary circumstance you're poor so the next ordinance that you get would already have everything in there for Extraordinary circumstance but you would you should still have to actually take a separate vote on though oh in extraordinary circumstances to get it into the ordinance and then the ordinance could presumably be the next the next meeting yes I mean well or if you support it if there's four or five votes out of it or majority for it just move forward with the ordinance but um generally I like to recommend if there is people that don't necessarily support it and there has been some communities that don't um there have been other communities that that do support it um I think just for the record because it does require specifically in statute it's good to take that vote so it's on the record and then move forward with the ordinance um then your internal capture staff has a written right now that it's something that have to be reviewed um and it's really focused on development specifically or development plan um so if you want us change anything now so today's really a good chance to give us any direction or changes that you want to see um and then so next time you'll see us again we'll be with some type of ordinance coming back before you I think it doesn't make any sense to do anything other than go ahead as quickly as we can and charge actual full Freight for new development for all the the mobility stuff we we'll just keep getting more and more behind if we don't just do it I'm out there I'm more in a camp of pH Teresa is do you have it Quantified what cases or would would be come under that extraordinary circumstance do we have a lot of cases for that this is for the entire Mobility fee structure so the entire amounts charged I it's so we're not talking about whether something would be eligible for the 25% thing that was discussed no the extraordinary circumstances is to adopt the full fee so that we do not have to phase depending on the on the percentage of increase so and we have actually oh so this takes away the fa the fouryear phasing and two-year phasing if you were to go down the path of extraordinary Circumstance the intent of going down that path is You' adopt the fee at once full free um and I will say I've had some local governments elect to do it other local governments elect not to do it um to best of my knowledge you know there's been a number of inces throughout Florida where it has been done um none have been challenged to date on that um and there are number of communities that have done so but again it really it really depends on the local government itself when is when is the fee charged when when at building permit at the issuance of the building permit the issue of the building permit okay so technically people could Rush within the next four years to get their building permits in quickly and still not build or do they have to build within a certain amount of time after their building permits well building perment expire right but um they could do that they could anticipate if if they have the building plan reviewed right they would have to have the building plans building building permit application or building permit is good for six months oh okay you have six months to get your first once once it's issued you have six months to get your first inspection you pass the inspection you get another six months you pass the next inspection you get another six month so it stays in as long as you keep making progress as long as you keep passing inspections it'll stay in effect until you get your certificate of occupancy or certificate of use whichever one it is uh so but yeah initially when you're handed that building permit it's good for six months okay and there there is a 90 any increase fee there is also a 90-day window from either the date you first advertise or the date you adopt it to issuance of building permit for that to go into effect so that anybody anybody that contemplates a building permit now they would have some time to submit that before it actually goes into effect okay so yes everyone's yes sir Axel you can go ahead and say so thank you I would encourage the council to adopt the full Freight all at once if you heard what what Mr Paul said it would be extraordinarily convoluted when you change from this per residence to per thousand square foot to figure out how to do these steps and terribly confusing I'll add just one qualification to that there's existing projects that are working their way through the system it can be a real shock to suddenly be hit with a higher fee the way seol County dealt with this and this involved projects in the city also was to give people an opportunity to apply for vesting because they're a pending project and they you know there's a mechanism and I believe Theresa is familiar with it because we did it for certain projects in the city under the County ordinance and that that's all I've got you really need to collect these monies it's a bitter pill but I think the mayor's correct if you don't you're just pushing the pain till a later and harming your Mobility network uh and that's tough for a developer representative to say but I'm saying thank you thank you okay I'm more worried about adopting that and increasing these fees and then people go outside the city and we get the same impacts U because they're outside the border and paying the county the fee or whatever it is well and I'll say I mean in some respects you already have that today because you have a county fee and you have a city fee so you are already more expensive than the county today um Winter Springs has a fee as well so any development going into Winter Springs is more expensive than the county so unincorporated county is the cheapest any any city that has a fee that you charge you're automatically higher than unincorporated County um because they just charge their fee and you know by the looks of it you know they're building a lot of stuff right around your city um and I don't see necessarily a whole lot of network coming in as part of that or con activity um so that that's probably your biggest hurdle and you're already facing it today you're more expensive than unincorporated County today if we did nothing if could ask you a question though if if the count when the council adopts the fee we'll be replacing that counting fee so that the at least the goal of what we're trying to do with the mobility fee is that developer our developers we only pay the one fee they won't pay they'll no longer pay both fees correct and what some communities have elected to do um theyve where it's replacing a fee they've made that effective immediately and then any increases either phased in per statute or 90 days later 120 days later something later so you could theoretically adopt it where it would be the day it goes into effect because the developers not paying any more than they're already paying today and then any increase could be either phased in or implemented 90 days later however time frame and then essentially you would you know if you vested some developments since they're paying that today that would be the amount that they would be vested to is the max between the city and the county so if we were to go with extraordinary circumstances and fully fund it when would we expect to for it to go like into effect like how many months out would that be the minimum so what statute requires is 90 days from public notice some communities elect that to mean the first reading of your ordinance historically it's been 90 days after adoption so we're talking like five months four months I'll say we come back in a say we came back in a month or in April you're looking at now if you wanted to the combined city and county could go into effect at that adoption hearing any increase would then be 90 days later so say you came back in April May so you're looking June July August for any type of increase to go into a fa okay and how much notice do we have to get the county none well I'd recommend you I'd recommend you give them notice you know just out of courtesy is um you know whatever decision you you make you move forward that I would put them on notice that hey as of this date we're going to do x y and z um and then you know we'd like to renegotiate the interlocal with you or I believe staff's already provided in inter local to uh the county for review so something that the county could take up and look at any time Mr Hall do the county have any recourse on us if we went this direction no the only thing the as you know when when they adopted their ordinance they provided for for an opting it was actually at our request and U the only argument they could make was we didn't necessarily follow their methodology that's an argument we don't think they would win but uh you know we have provided we have been negotiating now for over a year with them to try to get an interlocal agreement together we're not trying to shut the county out we're saying we'll share the feet with you we're just we're saying our study shows it should be 25% is what we should share with you and they're they're saying no we want our whole fee we want our whole fee we said doesn't work that way and and the other part to their study is and then I know Brian has um alluded to the Dual rational Nexus test um they're of the opinion that they can take a a Mobility multimotor fee from us and apply it to Something in Sanford we say that doesn't meet the law that doesn't meet the statute so we have that that discussion going on with now so so we we have looked at it and and Jonathan's methodology and all is very is very defensible uh we don't necessarily think theirs is as defensible as ours as best way it put so we we want to do an in agreement because we want to work with the county we don't want to just shut them out and and Johnson's report shows that it should be around 25% based on the the our area service area and the projects that are planned and so on so forth we feel the the the fair and all is about 25% that we would share with them the other issue is we have to Stu say it has to be utilized in five years some of their projects would want be done in five years so we're proposing we hold those fees and they they they because they have to be refunded if they're not used in five years they have to be refunded so so we have to very cognizant of that too so we feel a definite need for inter local agreement we have been working with the county to try to get one and and our feeling is when we move forward this that will push them to say okay we need we need to resolve this so that that's where we're heading Deputy Mayor the County ordinance does have a notice requirement I'm trying to remember if it was 30 days or 90 days prior to adoption uh one thing I would give you is that we them in 2021 that we were opting out we had a letter signed by all of councel uh that was sent to them that said actually was part of the or the letter that proposed the language that actually got that Mr Hall got adopted into the County ordinance but we told him at that point we're developing our own Mobility fee uh we then told him again in 2022 when we sat down with him and we said we're opting out we're developing our own Mobility fee we want to work with you we want to share Revenue but I think being on the safe side what what I would propose is that when we have when we know the adoption date we immediately notify them and say we're going to adopt this ordinance we're opting out and we asse the notice so that we cover our tracks even though we've been saying since 2021 we've been saying we're opting out and we're going to adopt our own fee uh we put them on notice several times uh several emails have put them on notice but uh I think have they responded when we've emailed them uh you know sometimes well I mean one of the things they did was they amended their ordinance based on the the uh the language that Mr Hall recommended so I mean that was one of the things that actually got it in there so that we could opt out we had the option of opting out and but I I think from a standpoint yes once we once we Define a definite schedule uh we do we go ahead and send the notice again just to be on the safe side okay so do we have consensus on the on the extraordinary circumstances I'm a yes for it I'm a yes yeah okay is that what we needed for tonight or no there there's a couple more questions right yep I thought there was three there was a well the first one would be either phase in or extraordinary Circumstance the other was to make sure that we we captured your the feedback that we've gotten on the um mixed use correctly um and as of right now the way it is it would be per development and it's really some criteria that the city would need to establish further to to give some guidance on that of what um it would mean to actually be mixed use the other option as you make it designated for a specific geographic area I'm I'm for a designated geographic area I would rather it be anywhere in the city that is defined as mixed use because it doesn't seem fair if someone's doing a good mix use development outside a certain area to not get that so to be Equitable I mean we have different core areas too so I think if we were going to do a discount it should be Equitable across the city on who's doing mixed use well I think I think you've got a combination of both I think we should have Geographic areas but if someone does a mixed use outside of that geographic area and it's defined as a mixed use then you know but when you're within those cores and those those other areas kind of I mean for instance across the street I mean overall the oito on the Park's mixed use but you've got you've got different developments in there you've got your residential and your and your retail and stuff but overall so like if you were to develop a you know like as we're developing the the North End of of town you've got multiple land owners but overall they're all going to be mixed use within that core if I could one thing about that in in both circumstances the lead on the park the the master did you talk a little closer yes sure thank you AO on the park master plan was developed under one development agreement so we could look at it from the standpoint that the instrument that enabled it was that development agreement and that Master land use plan and it encompassed it all the all of the different uh uses within obido on the park even though we got a couple of buildings that are you know truly vertically mixed use but it also accounted for the horizontally mixed use as well and I think that's the same pathway that we're going with with the older downtown uh there's going to be like let's take the uh Citizens Bank master plan it's it encompasses the entire property it is a mixed use development and so but it's encompassed under that one development agreement and the same thing with what's what's coming for the rest of downtown is you're going to see a development agreement that's going tocover SE it's going to Encompass several properties and it will identify the various uses within those properties and it'll that development under that development agreement would Encompass a a mixed use development uh so I mean I think that's the thing is that in looking at it on when you look at what's encompassed within a development agreement or within a site development order and you can you know there is multiple uses there it is mixed use there's internal capture people are moving about without having to go outside of the realm of that development then you you can see how that uses the mixed use there uh if this you know if you have that what I what I'm most concerned about when you just say well here's this District everything in here is mixed use uh you could end up with okay there's a convenience store here there's a duplex over here it's across the street well they're both claiming mixed use when they're really single uses the the development that's occurring is is is just single use and I like your small example uh we we I was talking to them a lot today about this and if you could share it I don't know if you have with everybody else yet but that made sense to me all the mall yeah with the apartment what the example that I used with M's question was Macy's the original Macy's Redevelopment had the apartments it had retail it had a restaurant and it had a hotel and the development that was within that development plan was what I would say was mixed use okay but now the with the second round that came through the most recent Macy's development was an apartment complex and so if we said okay the that apartment complex really is a single use all right but in in my opinion it doesn't make the mall now a mixed use development because the mall is retail and so having the having the uh multi family next door under a separate development doesn't necessarily make the small retail then on the other side make them all exed use on the other side you're going to have another program coming in another project coming in that's either going to be multif family or it'll be multif family with some accessory retail maybe a restaurant they haven't made up their mind yet if they come in with the mix of multif family retail resident restaurant then we can say that area is a mixed use but it doesn't necessarily make the mall mixed use but if someone would have would have purch purch the mall and you know along with the Macy's and put in the apartment complex and the mall then and under one development agreement like you're saying that would have been mixed use yes sir I agree and so the the the apartment complex and the mall would have both got gotten mixed use under one development yes under one development agre just because it's separate land owners now they're paying the full the full Freight or whatever the new development will the new develop the new apartment complex would pay but I think if you didn't do it that way and it was single land owners essentially you have someone coming in and building an apartment complex with no mixed use to it you're opening that up for them to get a discount and just piggy back on other people or if you do it as a single development site and require that for mixed use they're coming in with the whole plan to make sure it happens versus just get these I mean I think my issue with geographical location is you're opening the door to just apartments and you're you're getting rid of the mixed use ability there if I can add for of you know the park I think it's pretty um visible that it is a mixed use District right you can walk to places so it's pretty easy for them to prove that they are mixed use plus we have a development agreement I think the Redevelopment of the old downtown will have the same situation but as a compromise in the comprehensive plan for the downtown District where we wanted to be mixed use we waved you know smaller properties from having to bring mixed use or having to show that they were distanced to another mix use so that they could you know so we could have you know smaller Lots with a range you know the sequence of single use so I think the discount we are trying to uh Target the discount to something that we really want to achieve which is the mixu so if you prove that you're mix and I think even in the mall situation because it's not a new development you know as a whole but if they can proove that they are meeting the mix use you know Target I think they should have discount okay right so I think that is it's to Target to whatever we really really are getting from you know from the the development okay I'm good with t to the developer agree development agreement or site development okay I'm good with that we good got consensus all right what was the other thing well it was moving forward we we want to what we would like to do is move forward with the plan and the ordinance and get those in place get the fees in place and if we have an interlocal agreement it'll catch up and and as for the two days would that just be one meeting in the next meeting it could be it could we could as Jonathan mentioned it could be one day we have meetings in one day or we could have two separate meetings one one day then have a meeting the next day too do all of us have to be present for both meetings because I I do like the idea of the morning and evening actually it's preferable that you all aren't we're not there it is preferable that you all aren't present it's oh even better it's intended to be for the public okay yeah it's intend well then do it whenever you want yeah the sooner the sooner the better I do like the idea okay so it's it's more like a d Workshop it is intended to be a now I've had some local governments that wanted to hear so they want they elected to have one of theirs as a public Workshop where they were in attendance but it is not required that you all are in it is really for the public to provide it if you if you all want to be you know it's up to you all but so it's not a first reading and then uh it's not a first reading it's not a second reading oh okay it's not you know now if you wanted to be there at for one of them you could certainly be there as a member of the public or as a you if you're a formal body obviously all the other rules apply um you know that if you have a workshop here but no it can be so say you have a neighborhood you have a development company in there and you require them to hold a neighborhood Workshop that's what it's intended oh okay to be all right then then I'm I'm indifferent at that point I I do have a preference that one of the meetings be in the morning during the workday make sure everybody can go to it I believe if we do hold it here the room city has capabilities and it can be I would recommend definitely be that's been pretty well received have it recorded and then posted online that way any member of the public can have access to it all right all right that's you have everything you need from my perspective I I do have one last question for you um tradition city council meeting during uh spring break uh has been canell uh March the 18th is the first day of spring break and so I wanted to find out from you if you wanted to cancel the meeting or leave it to a if if we have an agenda move forward if not cancel the meeting I will not be present I might not I I also will not be here so I guess gu I guess quum it just be me and Natalie I I had a well we wouldn't have quum so now we I had a few staff members ask about it because was traditionally what we do and so I I know a few of you do go out of town uh during that time frame and so I wanted to just make sure before we got too close to the 18th so that we can do that so Mr Axel you will not you don't have to have a c meeting if you don't want to so what do we normally do spring break Fourth of July somewhere uh spring Drake Fourth of July Thanksgiving Thanksgiving and Christmas yes but luckily our Charter reques May yeah I checked with him before that's scary you get to sign all the stuff oh yeah good times all right that is all I need thank you okay I think we're Jed thank you thank you no you're even out of cell signal I might of