the flag not I'm not really not even doing that two years may22 you know I didn't do it all day didn't do it all morning pretty home can we start at 5:30 tomorrow may leaving I think I said I think I said invite pretty sure I think I sent an updated invite but I'm not sure if it was accepted enough yeah got it down got it down for 5 it it shouldn't take the full two hours it just depends on the questions and the level of detail there it is okay I my [Music] [Applause] bad everybody here all the same time okay I was like what you do oh the fluff fluff Mr bford Mr bford 9 to 11 9 to 11 work9 11 now they're going to do it at the end of the medum from now on well I had my Su know I I do have [Music] I had after colle did you and then I had kids mine got better yeah it it Wiggles them no I had 202 I had Henry it was good had Teddy I was like glasses again really how how far off did they go um enough to I wouldn't drive at night class really if I don't have one that's really are you like one or something I'm I'm like 1.25 I'm not that bad again but I was like pretty still help but Mr bord how are you good you see my drafted your quarterback I saw that saw I hope they got a good quarterback's catch be texted Mike I saw you poed t I can't see it I'm looking down at my yeah looking at my laptop for all right I got 5:30 so we will call to order this work session all members of council are present um first up we have public comment and I do have one request to speak uh Mr a if you'd like to come up to the podium state your name and your address sir hi I'm Alan a I'm uh at 1000 Lake Roger Circle in oido um I just had some thoughts about the uh the police station and really about the the referendum that we had in November that failed and just kind of thinking back through uh the way the way that went and uh what some of the issues may have been um we had the the town hall meeting here that was held probably five days before the election and I think there were about 50 people here and uh Mr cob had put together a presentation about you know all all the things that we were looking to do and uh what it might cost and one of the things I that is that uh Mr cob was very clear about how every item that we put in in the line items was was really the worst case and then on top of that we put a 20% margin on top of it just to make sure that we wouldn't overrun the budget and uh while I think that's good um and that we definitely want to do that um a lot of what came to my mind recently in thinking about this was that you know that gave us a number of $47 million and that number of $47 million is what the voters saw right so there were 50 people in here who understood that that was with an abundance of margin that that was our number but you know so 50 people in here you know 30,000 voters or so um probably didn't really get that idea and I think that was evidence by when we went to the uh Q&A portion uh is that one of the first people who stood up said what happen if we go over I remember sitting there thinking we just heard about how we almost can't possibly go over right but I think that's the way a lot of people feel um when they think about government projects and budgets right is that well they say it's going to cost X so it's probably going to cost X plus a certain amount and I think uh that Mr cop in in diligence and I think this is a good thing again um trying very hard to not make it like that and I think the voters probably didn't really understand and so I'm not saying that uh we should put together a proposal that's under right and then go over like everybody's expecting of course that would be worse um but I think it's worth thinking about how to make the perception uh such that the voters have um an idea of what we think the actual cost is going to be um and you know maybe in addition to not to exceed price something like that anyway so those were my thoughts and thank you very much great thank you I don't have any other uh written requests to speak is there anybody in the audience that cares to comment on anything tonight okay see seeing none I will close uh citizens comment on to the 2024 2025 budget and April update Mr cop uh thank you deputy mayor uh budget season has started and uh we uh actually as a staff we began working on the budget around February uh the Departments have been putting together their operational uh needs requests as well as their Capital requests uh the directors will be meeting in a few weeks to go through our prioritization Retreat that we do every year but we always like to come before Council early in the process to give you an idea about where we land Ed last year uh where we think we're going to be ending up at the end of this year and then to also talk about some challenges that we're foreseeing uh as we go through the budget process over the summer uh so I'm going to turn it over to uh Mr Boop he and his staff have once again working with our budget model uh have put together some projections and so he would like to walk you through and to once again give you that update on where we are okay well thank you Mr cob for that introduction honorable mayor uh deputy mayor council members um this is a snapshot of where we're currently at uh and the challenge that we've had as Mr cob has alluded to is that things have started to change even since we put this budget presentation together so as we go through this process I'm going to go very slow very methodically and do my best to explain what has happened since we provided you this presentation but one of the first things that we like to do as Mr Cobb said is we like to try and show you where we think we're going to land at the end of this fiscal year if you'll recall from my presentation a few weeks ago when we presented the financial results to you the general fund ended at $6.9 million very solid financial position against that last year year I should say this current year I'm sorry I'm operating in so many years right now but this current fiscal year we pledged of that $184,500 to balance the budget okay following uh the beginning of this fiscal year we always take a look at what are our open contracts and what are our open projects and how much money is still existing in those open contracts and projects that that needs to be carried forward to the new fiscal year so we had about $1.4 million in open contracts another $400,000 in open projects that we had to bring forward and then the difference is excuse me we had another $166,000 that we just asked you to approve in the midyear budget adjustment uh for maintenance and chemical type expenditures in the general fund things that are just out of our control so and the difference between that that's about $2 million and the difference between that is just various other things that were have been approved throughout the year uh during the budget process so the ending balance that were projected budgetarily and by the Numbers based upon that representation is $14.5 million but one of the questions we get asked a lot Jerry where do you realistically think that we're going to land at the end of the fiscal year so we've been we analyze that every single month we take a very close look at it we break everything down to a very microscopic view and right now what we're looking at is we're looking at Landing right at about The $16.9 Million number perhaps a little bit less okay so we may not have a contribution to fund balance at the end of this current fiscal year 23 24 but the hit against that fund balance doesn't appear to be big okay okay so again if everything plays out the way that we currently think it's going to play out we should end up in a very favor favorable position any questions about this before we get started okay so you heard me say when I first opened up that you know we've done a lot of work and we've done a lot of work subsequent to the introduction of this uh spreadsheet or this model that we provided you a week ago Monday so the information that we have been able to obtain we have put into this budget model we things are still moving they're moving very quickly and there's also some scary things quite frankly that we need to take a look at you know and really really consider but uh this year we've uh pulled the property uh appraiser and they've given us a 6.5% increase which yields an additional $1.2 million in ad valorum Revenue so knowing what we know we went back to them again last week I asked Kelly to fire another you email off to them asking them if they had any updates to that number and they said that they will not have any updates available for at least two or three more weeks okay so we're hoping that we get more than the 6.5% right now again it's too early we just don't know looking at the utility taxes we're projecting 5.3 million in utility taxes this year which is a $253,000 increase almost 254 over what we budgeted last year it's below actuals okay we have to be careful when we consider what we budget in this line item because last year please remember that U there were significant increases in uh utility charges predominantly electric that affected our Collections and utility taxes also last year last year was a much warmer summer than we've had in previous years and much drier so when we take a look at this number we have to be very very careful to consider the effect of the weather and the effect on pricing so until we get more information down the line we're just we're holding this at 5.3 million now if we have an overly cool summer a lot of rain that number is going to be ADV ver affected by that we have to be careful with that um projection looking at business tax receipts uh business tax receipts basically they're they're pretty flat unless there's a significant increase in business applications licenses permits and fees this tracks pretty much like utility taxes does and um the biggest component in here of course is electric franchise fees and other franchise fees but electric is the biggest component of that so we feel fairly confident that this number should hold that might be a little bit High we'll know that when we get a little bit further down the line but but right now that's the number that you know we're we're going with are the franchise fees for electric calculated on the total bill or are they calculated on or is fuel excluded from it because fuel rates are are going to um go down I mean they've been significantly was fuel is excluded I know from the utility taxes I do not know about the franchise fees okay okay um but we can follow up and get back to you on that so can we follow up okay I just you know I just want us to be aware of that exactly so thank you for that question it's a good question looking at intergovernmental what you'll see in the intergovernmental line is the 2223 actuals came in very very high and they came in high because there's about a million dollars in FEMA reimburse ments embedded in that 6.3 million so that number is is is not an accurate number that we can use to forecast the budget going forward what we're particularly concerned about in this line is this is where we collect the half cent sales tax uh and the revenue sharing component from the state those two taxes are consumption based and what we're starting to see see is a reduction in collections which could be driven by the state of the economy and how it's morphing from a very robust consumption based economy now down to a slowing of expenditures based upon what the FED has done with the interest rates it's a little bit too soon to know what exactly is happening and if that Trend will hold but we're looking at these numbers very closely and we want to be very very careful because we do not want want to overestimate recurring revenues against recurring expenditures if those funds don't materialize extremely important looking at charges for services charges for services is is is relatively flat Okay the reason that it's relatively flat is for a number of reasons um we have some one-time collections that took place in actuals that may or may not reoccur in the in the subsequent fiscal year or years uh in addition to that one component that we're looking at very closely in charges for services is the upstart of the Riverside Recreation Center we just don't know right now what the impact on revenues is going to be once those operations gear up so when we get a little bit further down in the budget process there may be a little bit more room not a lot but a little bit more room to increase that number fines and forfeitures flat okay when you take a look at other revenues you'll see that the 2223 actuals were $2.7 million that was driven by basically two events we collected $1.3 million from our insurance carrier for uh refurbishing Riverside in addition to that we had a great surprise of almost a million dollars in interest income so that makes up 2.3 almost 2.4 million makes up that $2.7 Million number so we don't expect that to repeat now one of the things that we are looking at very closely is what's going to happen with interest rates well your guess is as good as mine because one of the things that's taken place over the last several months is that you hear all that fed speak coming from Jerome Powell and um basically the speak has the speak has been textured such that it suppresses short-term interest rates and long-term interest rates now that we're on the other end of that cycle we're taking a look at oh my gosh we really can't lower interest rates because inflation is still rearing its ugly head and they've got to solve that equation somehow so having said that when you take a look at this number right here the 713 we have embedded in that number $500,000 of interest income that's lower than the 900,000 but what we don't know and what we can't predict is when is the Fed actually going to lower the rate we don't think that they'll do it this calendar year however it can be political and things can happen now if the economy starts to tank rather quickly because it's been higher for too long which you'll see is a significant reduction quickly in the interest rates so we're trying to position ourselves to make sure that we can maximize our our our position uh from a forward-looking perspective we're taking a look at treasuries right now to see how far we can go out and maximize our return on investment and it's a it's just a little bit tricky right now but I'm I'm working with some folks to help us with that now having said that we have included $500,000 in interest income and other revenues we do not consider interest income as recurring Revenue we consider it to be one-time Revenue so we did not pledge it against recurring expenditures okay does everybody follow me on that so what we do is whatever that number is right here we take it and we plug it in down here in capital so as interest income goes so goes Capital unless we can find find another source to combine it to combine it with interest income to come up with a better number for our Capital expenditures but that is basically its use and its purpose as of this session going back up you will see that currently we have no use of fund balance again we're still a little bit early in the process it's too soon to take a look at what if any fund balance do we include and again fund balance is a one-time Revenue so whenever we pledge fund balance to the greatest extent possible we want to make sure that we pledge it towards one-time expenditures I.E Capital if we can so taking a look at total revenues total revenues are projected right now to come in about 38.2 compared to last year 36.5 about a $1.7 million increase okay we're hoping for a lot more than that but based upon what we're seeing from these consumption based revenues the way the the economy is starting to Waffle a little bit it's really hard to have Reliance on some of these numbers from a long-term perspective so but I think right now this is our best position at this point in time any questions about revenues all right moving on down to expenses uh coming out of the the gate you know we really didn't know what to budget in regard to General government salaries police and fire so from a modeling perspective what we did is we plugged in 3% so the 3% numbers yields the results that you see in the variance column but the important thing to understand is this is that when we came out of the gate whoops sorry about that when we came on the gate with modeling 3% we didn't have any knowledge about what was going on in our local governmental structure with our competitors around central Florida etc etc so what we're looking at is and the other thing too I'm sorry the other thing too we didn't have an accurate CPI number we didn't know what direction it was actually going in and unfortunately CPI seems to be trending upward it's gone from 3.1 3.2 now 3. 5% we don't know how that's going to Trend but our competitors are actually offering between 4 and 5% so we think we're going to have to go back and take a look at this number uh and model four maybe 5% 4 and a half% before we get to the end of this budget process and the reason for that is if we don't we're going to fall back to where we were before when we were coming before you and saying we're short 40 FTE we can't we can't hire people because we're not competitive in the market okay so that's something that we're looking at and uh judging very closely but that's you know for that one that's that 3% is the total salaries and if we have any vacancies then they can be they can fill those the you know use that extra money from those vacancies to to give additional salaries to the the you know two individuals and plus that's an average so if you've got you know um super performers and or poor performers they're going to get something on that average so I would you know I would think right now to hold the 3% because those the the the you know the performers that the super performers are um are going to get something more than that and and also you've got those vacancies to make up those differences so I I mean my opinion is is to hold it 3% for now interesting thing you know we do a a cola straight across Ross the board so there's no performance I I was going to ask that same thing are we even allowed as a government agency to pay based on performance absolutely so if you if you produce more you're allowed to be paid more I mean this is wonderful I thought that it was not allowed of government no it's it's totally allowed I mean unless it's you know un the only the only time when it's not allowed is if it's a like a bargaining unit then you know then it's all by the contract but if it's for for normal normal government employees it it should definitely be allowed I mean I don't think there's anything not allowing am I correct I'm not aware of anything that wouldn't allow it other than the consideration of the bargaining unit contract a bargaining agreement um yeah but to your point Mr poock our history here has been u a straight cross the board increased standard for everybody and no performance type adjustments that's been our history since I've been here for the last 12 13 years now so if we migrate excuse me between three and 4% every 1% increase is another $85,000 uh in expense so again you know we're going to go through the process in between now and July we're going to find out what the right answer is and plug it in there because again we don't want to slip back and incur the same kind of losses that we've incurred before and again absolutely right about the vacancy Factor we're pretty full right now uh we don't have the vacancy factors that or factor in place that we've had in the past um and that's one of the things that's saved us you know that's one of the things that has given us the extra money to do some of the things that we have pledged fund balance for and also things that we've had to pay in the previous fiscal year that were of significance so we need to be careful with that because the vacancy Factor overall is um safety barrier for our margin and that can be used to cover the carry folds going forward which is typically what we have done in the past doesn't mean we need to do that in the future but what we want to do is our utmost to protect fund balance so that's the margin that we've used it for now you'll see that General government temporary salaries has been reduced significantly and that has because we have a relationship with a temporary agency that hires folks strictly for recreation we determined that that really is an operational type expense a contractual expense so we moved that down here to operating expenses so we have a $1.3 million increase here uh and of that is the just the movement of of this contract here now police salaries and benefits uh again 3% uh we don't know where we're going to land we're currently under a negotiation for both police and fire for every 1% increase in police we increase our expenses by approximately $75,000 now the police pension line that line that's been given to us by from the actuary we've gone from 14.52% from in the current fiscal year to the next budget budget year 17.37% and those are given to us from the actuary we don't determine what those numbers are looking at fire same thing 3% every 1% increase in fire yields an additional $55,000 in expense now we know we're not going to land at 3% we don't know where we're going to land so that number can grow significantly between now and the end of the end of the period in which those contracts are finally negotiated looking at fire pension fire pension has gone from 17.2% to 18.8 and the interesting thing about these uh pension plans is that our actuary Foster and Foster Doug loen has advised us that these plans will be at or exceed 20% within the next few years so it's it's just a part of the process and he feels very confident about that so those numbers are going to grow as we get subsequent valuations from Foster and Foster uh looking at overtime uh overtime you know we've matched that with salaries 3% again we'll have to go back and take a look at that uh and adjust those numbers uh as necessary health insurance met with the HR team of the gearing group a few weeks ago and uh it looks like health insurance is projected to come in right around 3.5 or 4% but the one thing that we have in our favor in the health insurance line is that there was a significant claim which kind of created if you will an aberration in the projected results so um we've asked them to go back and take a look at these numbers again in June and give us a revision so hopefully when we get down to the end of this process this 165 will be significantly less are flat I'm hoping that the guidance that we get from our broker and our actuary on our projections is much much lower than the 165 based on my experience I think that we can we can make that happen no promises but I think we can make that happen now workers compensation and general insurance we kind of group these together because whenever we go through excuse me whenever we go through the planning process for insurance we know that one component of our insurance uh coverage is going to go out of whack last year it was property last year in property we we basically absorbed a 30% increase in property just because of the hurricane events or the climate events that we have here in the State of Florida this year workers compensation is projected to be flat but we've included 10% in there just as a safety net but we don't know uh about what's going to happen is under General Insurance there's a significant liability component associated with that number so we need this temper whoops this 10% increase here the 21 combined with the 10% increase here right now until we get our renewal premium in from public risk management which we expect sometime in June I tried I was at a meeting last week excuse me the week before in Lakeland I tried to press them for answers in regard to what our overall percentage increase would be and they couldn't pin it down and I asked them if we would be safe with 10% and they said yes but there's a lot that gets included in that number it's just not an across the board easy fix so you should have said 5% I know well again the other component that's in here too I didn't mention kind of glossed over is that you you know as we acquire property or build different buildings and things of that nature you know we uh our taxable insured values otherwise called tis actually increase and there's an inflation component tied into that as well so that's going to be in these numbers at the end of the process and we don't have those numbers yet so looking at operating expenditures um we projected a 5% in increase in operating expenditures and I think by now when you take a look at our discussions that we've had in regard to our carry forwards and the things that we've had to do the items that we've had to inflate you you can see that we're incurring significant um increases here in operating expenses so we projected a 9. you know7 million proposed budget for 2425 based upon the rules that we've employed in the past that number actually came in after we got the results from the individual directors at 10.1 so we've got a $400,000 difference that we have to make up there in conjunction with the other salary adjustments that we have to make up okay so we know that the position that we provided you with a contribution to fund balance no longer exists this because of the work that we still have to do between now and the end of the process our reserve for we already talked about Capital expenditures that's tied all the way back to interest income looking at the reserve for contingency 225 a little bit lower than the previous fiscal year um this is really an important number because before we go to fund balance we try to hit the reserve for contingency so we don't don't have to affect fund balance and whenever you have the significant increases in maintenance and chemicals that we've had to absorb over the last several years it's just a very very difficult number to nail down you want to think that hopefully these things are going to slow down they're going to Plateau doesn't seem to be the case you know what's happening right now unfortunately because of the American Rescue Planet there's so much demand in the industry that it's very difficult for us to get things number one on a timely basis and number two in an at a a what I would call a competitive price something that I've learned this past week which was um shocking is that we take a look at our fire replacement Vehicles the ones that we used to pay $760,000 for are now closing in on 1.2 million and the lead time to get those Vehicles which used to be a year to 18 months is now 48 months and they want to be prepaid okay so those are some of the challenges that were bumping up against air conditioning units large air conditioning units 40 weeks out so what happened over at Public Works is we lost their air conditioning unit last year I can't remember how many months it it took to get it replaced we were paying between three and $4,000 a month just for a temporary unit to go in and keep the building cool so those those are some of the things that we're experiencing that we have to absorb in our budgets because we just don't have a choice you know there's so much pent up the band out there in the industry it's very difficult to get these things done on a timely basis and on an inexpensive basis and talking to the folks from 108 I asked um uh Mr Woodward Chief Woodward to get some information from them just to give you an example of what they're dealing with before Co they made four an they made an annualized 4,500 vehicles per year now they're making in excess of 6,500 okay now they can't tell us when that's going to normalize but at some point in time it will normalize and what they're driving it or what they they told us what's driving it is the American Le rescue plan at because everybody's just purchasing everything that they possibly can and the time constraints purchasing everything or encumbering it is the end of this fiscal year to be completed and delivered by 2026 so it's a tough picture so taking a look at our total expenditures um in the proposed year 39.5 compared to last year 37.9 an increase of 1.6 so what we're looking at based upon the numbers and we typically land right around here at the end of this process we looking at an operational loss of about 1.2 million so basically that loss is offset by transfers in which come from the utility the water sewer utility 2,150,000 uh storm water 225,000 and a couple of other small contributions CRA 55 and uh Building Services 50,000 so that that makes that the 2.4 one of the things that we've asked our rate consultant to do willan is to take a look at those numbers because we haven't increased those numbers since 2017 so we know that there's some inflation in there that has not been accounted for that we really need to consider so when we meet with them over the next couple of days um we're going to be taking one of the questions I'm going to be asking them is what are excuse me what are we doing with that number right there is there any additional margin that we can bring over into these respective funds uh driven by inflation because we've been relatively flat again for the last several years transfers out $130,000 goes to the um it fund uh for replacement of equipment we fund a flat amount every year because we never know what's going to break and we also plan for replacement of equipment that comes up on a rotating threeyear schedule so we pre fund it it's available at the time that we have to pull the trigger on the funding uh the remaining uh 26 3 it basically goes out to our self-insured deductible fund we are self-insured for the first $25,000 on certain losses under our insurance program so we made that move a few years ago to lower insurance premiums and it has proven to because we have such an incredibly um strong risk management program here it has actually worked out to our favor um looking at transfers out debt 688 ,000 excuse me 688,000 um you'll see that uh that number has declined significantly just a few years ago I think Kelly if I'm if I'm not wrong not not wrong it was in excess of 2.2 million $2.3 million so that margin that we saved in just our debt structure alone has enabled us to basically absorb what I call governmental inflation from 3 or four years ago up to this current point however we're running out of places to find additional funds to be able to absorb what I call government inflation you know again just backing up a little bit taking a look at government inflation this category right here in salaries we know is going to be a challenge between now in the end of the year um and uh we also know that um operating expenses is also going to be a challenge not only is it going to be a challenge is we try to Define this budget as best we can or correctly but it's also going to be a challenge following October 1st because of the continued price increases that we're seeing across the industry so that rounds out the budget presentation pretty much um again this these op this operating result here of 125 really has been totally consumed we're probably now looking at a deficit anywhere between 400,000 million dollars that we're going to have to find um a solution for so um that's that's it by the numbers as we currently look at it now a couple things that we want to ask you to consider is every year we ask you if we can take the go Bond Village savings and transfer it over to the operational savings and we would like to have your consensus on that if we take it this year um 0.008 it yields an additional $30,000 in operational income to the general fund and one of the things that Kelly Jones pointed out to me today is it's this is really powerful in that it's not just the $30,000 that uh is important to the general fund but when you go back and you take a look at 2016 2017 when Kelly came up with the idea of implementing this it has added an additional between 400 and $450,000 a year in income to the general fund which has really helped us close in on that margin okay it's extremely important to us to uh to have that and continue and to continue that uh going forward if you give us consent to do so I'm I'm good with that I'll good with it okay thank you also while we're here um I want to ask you with the challenges that we have in front of us uh over this next short interim is there any consideration to to considering any kind of a milit rate increase well let's I I mean to me it's more of let's look at everything thing as we get closer and and see where the numbers are because what I did notice in the in the other piece is you're only plugging in the amount of interest income you think we were going to get for the capital but we created a capital Improvement plan that um that we need to start looking at so we need to really plug in what what we what's in that Capital Improvement plan and what that amount is so that's going to you know that's definitely going to hit the expenses a little bit harder so it's going to hit them way harder because that plan is very large I but but that's what we put in place so all we're doing is kicking the can down the curve down the road if we if we don't if we don't start to Weedle away at some of those some of those items well a lot of those issues do have to do with either a water sewer or storm water utilities so my inclination is similar to yours let's get those rates adjusted because that's all coming up in the next in you know before this budget has to be adopted and then we will know which of those we can appropriately allocate to different funding sources that are guaranteed and based no because because well I think because Capital expenses some some are within the utility and these ones I guess are probably related to parks and wreck and other things that being said it is legally permissible for us to uh and and I think you you were alluding to it a little bit earlier in your presentation there could be excess gathered from uh sewer and water that could be re relocated to the general fund and put into you know perhaps a capital capital budget that would be this number right here you know but we have to be very careful with that um and we have to make sure that it's justifiable the state is starting to take a very very close look at how we do transfers in from the utilities so whatever we do here has to be reasonable and justifiable otherwise what we'll be doing is we will we will be uh developing an accounting effort that will just stifle process of everything that we do there's a way to slay the dragon I hate to Hate to go down that road but uh and I think we can do it but I just want us to be reasonable and justifiable coming the gate there's definitely some room here to your point mayor um but I don't know what that is until we go through those additional discussions I mean we well we don't want to end up like a Gainesville what what happened with their electric utility or there's a yeah there's a number of examples but but basically you're either you're either charging it in the utility rate or you're charging it in the military so I mean it you know it's you know however you slay it you you know you it's a zero sum game but but yeah I mean to me the the capital expense item needs to be more realistic um than just this is what we have at interest expense and or interest income and we're going to that's what we're going to charge because you know I or what what we're going to spend for this year because we're just we're just kind of building this whole issue you know this this it's going to it's going to become a bigger issue I mean we we finally got out of a lot of of these problems with the um arpa funds and now you know all we're going to do is put ourselves back into it if we don't if we don't take care of it now I agree uh we can make that number real um I mean at least let everybody look at it I mean yeah obviously yeah that's that's an excellent point um that number of course we don't have any uh recurring Revenue at this point in time to match up against what that number might possibly be uh we'll have a better feel for that uh after we meet on May 15th we meet with the directors and we go through the capital schedule all the asks all the all the things that you know need to be considered as well as additional FTE if any re classes and all that so that'll be a product of that discussion on May 15 and we can come back uh either at the end of May early June and bring you an update to this process okay and then as for the the police and fire um I know that that you know those contracts are coming up um I mean one of the things that you know the the mayor and I brought up the last time was try to get those negotiated and out sooner than later so that we can get them into the budget is that even a possibility now being that you know it's we're so far into the to the Year I hope so I don't have a definite answer for that you know we I know that we are both teams I think are moving forward in in good faith you know it's a negotiation it's a process um we started a little bit earlier this year than we have in previous years that doesn't mean that we're going to finish earlier okay so I I think if um the process needs to get wrapped up in this fiscal year it might require some council help okay for us there so I mean you know for a conservative approach I would I would think that we could at least um put in you know as as we go on into the negotiations kind of at least put into the budget what where we're where where we're at like worst case scenario and then and then work from there to see what that impact to the mill rate would would be okay and and we've said it before but from a timing perspective we have to publish what our Max rate is by what date mid July is usually when we early August okay so I feel like mid July is when we have that vote so we need to know that we know that we know what the the contract needs to be completed prior to when that ordinance is adopted and we we publish otherwise it's a fund balance issue which is what we faced in the past you so but our fund balance needs to to grow and not decline right agreed so hopefully you can communicate to all the unions that we would like to wrap this up I'd say by end of June so we can have everything done we're six weeks out one last thing Kelly if I missed anything please let me know in NAIA U one of the things that we're taking a very close look at excuse me one of the things that we're taking a very close look at this year is we're looking at breaking out the it component of the general fund and placing it in its own fund and treating it like an internal service fund and the reason to do that is to isolate the cost for it and make sure that we're funding it properly because it is a significant component of our operations it is the backbone that supports everything that we do and we want to make sure that we account for it the way it needs to be accounted for you know and we don't want to to to bury it in the general fund and not provide funding for it correctly so we're taking a look at that we're modeling it right now if it's feasible between now and the end of the year we will bring that back to you um and you'll see the effects of that in this presentation it's not going to reduce the expenses it's going to reduce basically it's going will reduce the expenses and on as we see it on this schedule but it will increase the transfers out is what it will do so it'll be offset the bottom Line's not going to change which is direct offset so one of the things that we take a look at and Mr C and I and the directors we we've kind of talked about this is that when we we've we've got so much expense in it we've got fire expense we've got police expense we've got HR all that software is embedded in their budget because it's embedded there we don't have an accurate accounting uh for the for our the true cost of fire the true cost of police the true cost of Finance the true cost of HR if we can isolate it we can create the appropriate reporting structure within the uh internal service fund so that we can pull those numbers together without doing all kinds of analytics and spending days on pulling those expenditures together is there any way to do a sub account for those because I do think it's valid to think about the because police is its own Silo of technology I think it it is appropriate to be able to very easily tell which department is using what size technology budget um so I don't I don't know how you could that's what the internal service fund will do for us okay so it'll it'll still oh yeah see what we'll be able to do this but will you be will you have to manually I guess this is more of a no I understand I think I understand your question may it's a good question I use QuickBooks so I'm I'm and I know y'all don't so I don't know how easy not to get too technical but what we would do in the internal service fund is we would we would assign the police and fire uh Department division structure in the internal service fund so all when we do a subset across the entire organization we just pull it in we have our number so right now it's included in categories that roll up into one line item in the it budget so there's a there's a better smarter way to do things and we're looking at that and we may achieve that between now and the end of this budget season I don't know we're we're trying just want to inform you of of that so Kelly n have I missed anything at all thank you all for the hard work any additional questions I got a few questions um first of all I remember when these meetings had a lot worse data than what we're seeing today so I'm sorry the what I remember when these budget sessions had a lot worse data than what we're seeing today this is not as bad of pictures we've seen in the past uh and it to me it's it's doable to toh balance this out I noticed that uh I think I wrote down 1.7 42 million above uh above the revenues expenses that's about a 4% increase or maybe that was the total increase that's about matching with inflation isn't it it's got to be last time I checked it was coming down but 4% was about the number sorry I'm not going to even guess at that at this point in time of the day I know there's some up and down but that's you usually when you read the uh media reports it's four or three supposedly coming down but maybe not that fast it's 3.2% okay so we're we're budgeting about which is right in line with inflation I mean that but hold on there before we qualify that that's based on where we're at right now that number is going to be significantly higher that deficit is going to be significantly higher you know once we go through we update with the most current information so it's 3.2% now I don't know where it's going to land I hate the Gess okay could be even 5% by the time we get done with this because again operating expenses we know right now is $400,000 understated and we don't know where the other contracts are going to land and we don't know the Actuarial impact of the pension uh consideration so those numbers could be quite large okay so we have to be careful but I understand what you're saying so what we can do going forward is we can take a look at that analyze it and try to figure out um if there's a easy solution to that okay well that kind of leads to another question I I thought we had uh storm water and uh water Wastewater index so that we we automatically increase the the rates based on a CPI or some other index we do uh that affects the revenues but we don't index the transfer in from those respective funds into the general fund and it's something that we've asked will to model for us something that we should consider okay so that's a conversation for another day soon tomorrow okay tomorrow and uh Wednesday and Thursday all right well you know I I think we have a unanimous consensus to use the uh the debt reduction into the into the millage rate is that true okay that I agree with that but I still think we need to harden our Reserve account for what might be a pretty active season uh it's kind of concerning that we're going to dip into that Reserve again this year possibly and we might get hit uh you know I'm thinking back to the 2022 with Ian which you know it's kind of disturbing to mean that we still have a million dollars outstanding from FEMA for something that happened a couple years ago um yeah n do you recall how much money we have what's our receivable from FEMA at this point do you have know that off the top of your head I do not but we only have a couple of storm water projects that are outstanding we have Magnolia Street we have mckinon um Riverside Riverside will be very um could you pull your mic down just a little thank you Riverside will be a small reimbursement from FEMA because we receive most of the proceeds from the insurance um and um I think Little Creek is another of the FEMA projects but they're mainly storm water not general fund we do have um we have an unexpected surprise possibly where we might get some additional funds back on the Riverside um if Insurance um declines that we're filing uh we think FEMA will pick it up so we're taking a look at that we we'll get back 88% of that that number which will be an excess of $100,000 so that's hanging out there right now but we don't know how that's going to play out till we get to the end of the process so I mean your point you know Mr Britain is spoton um and that it's always a cash outl until you start getting reimbursements now now the good thing because I remember Mr poock asked me this question a few years ago is well you know we've got FEMA you know in the background reimbursing us but you know it's taken them so long to reimburse us but one of the things that has happened with uh bringing ICF on board is they understand the internal mechanics of FEMA and they have been able to help us out tremendously so what would take us a year 18 months to collect we're collecting in less than a year now because of their expertise and how much theyve helped us on the front end you but they also we get reimbursed for the cost of using them too a portion at least exactly we get reimbursed for for using them so but again you know we we gain their expertise and that has helped us out significantly and it has seted up the reimbursement process now that can be different with every store doesn't it Go doesn't it go through the state now and then the state disperses it has that taken longer to get it through the state now or they they pretty good at they have been pretty good for Hurricane okay hey on uh you mentioned timeliness of procurements how long it takes to get stuff done is there a way we can modify our procurement system to try to expedite some of these things either through piggyback contracts Standalone you know standing up contracts so they're on call when we need an air conditioner fixed or something like that we piggy back as many contracts as we possibly can uh when you take a look at piggybacking we have to be very careful because FEMA doesn't honor piggyback contracts okay so um well just for general maintenance you mentioned the Public Works air conditioner right that's that's totally outside of the contracts I mean that's a demand issue the the the replacement units aren't available in the industry that's the problem they're just not available so um they're not available that's the problem okay councilman I I can tell you that U we have we have been doing that we've been taking advantage of piggyback contracts where we we see that the contract that was issued by the other local government actually has beenal to us uh we have jumped on those uh and one of the things too we've also done is especially on the rec Recreation side as well as public works too uh bringing doing the bids for just to put the contractors under contract and to be able to get three or four contractors under contract so that when something does arise we have somebody to go to uh so we have we've been doing that regularly for about the last 3 four years so those things are those things are are happening and they're in the background they're not things that we just jump out and say hey look what we did so but uh yes I mean we've we've done a lot of piggybacks over the last last few years as well as just going out and saying hey we need contractors for this type of thing I think one of the biggest ones is uh just working in storm water just in the storm water I think we have like three three contractors on be on under contract right now that we can go to one and say here we got this work you and so but yes we've been doing that okay uh I think the last thing I have is on uh paper performance I know we have a step system for the police and fires is that correct Brian uh no sir it's not really a a it's not really a step system what we do is through the contracts we look at over the threeyear period as far as what the as far as the percentage increases would be and we apply them individually to the different members of the unions so it's not really what you would call a based on time and service um in some cases yes it is we do look at uh time and place as but it's also taking into account where they're at uh taking into account the different increases that get approved through the three years of the contract then we also look at what are the different uh incentive pays that they get you know as far as certifications and things like that different different types of duty duty pays and things what about for the other Rank and file groups like Works do they have any kind of system like that step uh no sir we for actually as long as I've been city manager we've only done uh just annual increases that's all we've done it'd be nice if we could reward the top performers with some sort of increase I know in the federal government they'll give you a step increase if you're in grade u a within grade increase it's it's not much but it's it's usually appreciated when you get one uh and that goes to that's a quality award for doing good work so maybe something to think about otherwise I think I think we're you know as early in the process as we are you know we'll wait to see what uh comes back but uh good job I think we're in better shape than we've been in in uh past years thank you thanks anything else no I think we're good right thank you thank you Deputy Mayor if we could take a short re say let us unplug and replug and get absolutely get the other folks up here HDMI could be see can see you again is that you test test test test test test this was two [Applause] you know what we learn so how's it going than Al ready all right let good going all right guys be well if everybody's ready we can get started I don't want to be the only no I'll go do it maybe I'll get like two we get them done at [Applause] good okay are we ready all right so next we have the Zha and Analysis of police headquarters options Mr cob all right thank you Deputy Mayor if you remember back in February uh Council approved the piggyback agreement once again there we go p back agreement uh with we piggybacked an Oola County agreement with Zha for uh Construction Consulting and owner representation Services uh we issued them their first work order in March uh and it was to take a look at options for us moving forward with the public safety uh building project and so they've done an analysis and they've come up with some options for us that they want us to take a look at and they want us to pair them down to uh get to a smaller number of options to move forward for further analysis and so uh Mr Robert iie and Mr Johnny lauram and Mr Rick melan are here tonight they have a presentation for you to give you the findings of their uh of their their research and U I'm going to turn it over to Mr iy and let him uh make the presentation great great thanks so much good evening mayor council members I'm Robert uty with Zha uh nice to see you again and just to give you a little context just so you understand our background and how it relates to this particular study um Zha has been in this market for over 40 years all public sector and institutional clients we've done over 20 Public Safety related projects in advising owners whether it be programming design construction or or all the above and my partner Rick melon and I we've been we've been doing these for over 40 years right we don't look like it but we have right and then we have uh so right now we're working for city of Apopka helping them with their police and fire a new uh building helped them with programming helped them hire the architect which is AGG who also did your study great firm we've done him a long time we're also um working for city of okoi on a regional Law Enforcement Training Center uh and fire station working for city of Sanford new fire station at the airport and also three fire stations for penel that's just a little flavor for what we're doing now and I bring that up because we understand cost you know real time cost in today's right and U my colleague Johnny lauram the youngster in the group although he's the youngster he's been involved in over 50 Public Safety projects in his career completed and he's involved in some way shape or form in 20 right now across the state so you know what what that means is that we've we've seen a lot we've learned a lot and we've been able to collaborate with our client Partners to you know to get to an Optimum solution and outcome in a very efficient manner which means managing your risk managing your costs and all those kind of things right so uh with that I would just say that we would like this to be a robust discussion uh we don't have all the answers but if you challenge the thought process and we discuss it it will end up with with the right outcome so I'm just going to introduce the agenda and then Johnny and Rick are going to kind of walk through it so you know back in 2017 uh you engaged adg to do a study for you very comprehensive and then it was it was reviewed in 2018 and you all are well aware of all that so one of the first things we've done is gone back and reviewed the program again with the chief uh Johnny his expertise and come up with what we think is a valid Optimum program right for what you need and then we're going to go over the different options that we've come up with we're ultimately going to make a recommendation right because that's what you hire us to do right you may not agree with it but again the point is to discuss and get to the right outcome and then um you know we got the cost projections for all of these which Rick can speak to Rick's also going to you know discuss some of the real potential real estate options and whatever decision you make and he's also going to share with you the potential of a P3 structure which we're very familiar with both of us all of us and uh just so you're aware of those structures that are out there a lot of counties and cities are using them may not be the right structure for you but we just want to make sure you understand what the opportunities are so can you tell us What P3 means yes sir yeah now in in the interest of time might it make sense to see if council is interested in doing the same format as before because we hashed all this out before whether we're going to re renovate add something new and at the end of the day we all said let's build something new so it could be in the right place and that's essentially I think the discussion that after about an hour presentation we may end up having again and coming to the same conclusion so I are you guys well I think since last time you know that referendum failed we need to relook at all those options and see the best way to proceed on something we can fund and make happen so I do think we should relook through these I don't know what you guys yeah I think we should go through the four options I mean they put together see what they have to say it the price point is substantially different than what we asked for and I think that right there like if if it was this price point and that was asked for a brand new Standalone I think we very likely could have had a different outcome but if if everybody wants to hear the whole thing I'm we we'll be expedient and uh I do want to add that that the pricing and the cost projections are based on what's really happening in the market it's not based on two or three years ago or it's really current and Rick can speak to that so with that Johnny we'll jump into uh sure I'll test this out for first because I I speak very loudly anyways um as Robert mentioned you're well aware of the processes that you went through before IE 2017 space study that was developed uh previously um you know we don't need to get into the the meat and potatoes of that other than you know that resulted in showing that you had roughly a need of about 41,000 Square ft for a new PD facility right then in 2018 um the same firm adg that prepared the 2017 came back worked with staff went through that process again um looked at looked at certain things um and really said okay what can we do to kind of make this a little bit more efficient what can we do to look at multi-use spaces what can we do to see exactly what the needs are and and worked with Chief and his staff to say this is what we could live with rough roughly looking at numbers out to 2038 right and that study came up with with a number of roughly about 28,900 Square ft um and so what we've done is we have met with uh staff again um and as Robert said we're going to be expedient right so just a few bullet points um and the truth of it is staff was very very efficient and and the previous 2018 relooking at this um we still stuck with the 2038 numbers um just so things were Apples to Apples um we're looking at things like Staffing changes right I'm looking at things like City growth and if other other areas have been brought in that would affect uh PD's needs you know things like changes due to covid one thing that we've seen in other municipalities I mean since 2018 a lot of things have changed and Co is one of those and the way it's changed is maybe how Patrol works or how many people are sitting in the actual office spaces and work desks and does everybody need to be sitting in an office 20 you know all the time now do you need to have desk space that are sitting empty because you're providing dedicated offices to people that may not even be working in the office anymore so looking at things like that um in regards to what could potentially have changed from an operational standpoint um we had some conversations uh with Chief and staff about has anything operationally changed that would affect how you looked at your numbers previously versus now um and and really the response was no um I looked at it pretty heavily um and then looked at ideas such as multi-use spaces you know one of the big changes that that happened between um that first study um and what what Chief and his staff looked at um in the recent studies with us is and they had pretty much already made these changes before was okay where can we be most costeffective from multi-use spaces right and one was for example the original study included uh a classroom a training room an EOC uh you know a defensive tactics room and these are all spaces that might not necessarily be used all of the time and you know like I said Chief was U very smart in considering hey what if we consolidate that down into one or two spaces um so that we're using those as occupied spaces all the time they're not sitting empty and we're being responsible and efficient with space programming and the dollars um so back it up one one other quick thing that um was a difference between uh the 2018 study and the original study was some of the numbers actually were just kind of miscategorized there was about 3,500 square feet in the original study that was designated towards outdoor kind of rolling assets which really only require for example a canid or to be covered they were actually calculated in your occupational spaces um so you don't you don't want to count that 3500 ft as under air occupied space because it really just sends up your budget right so when it looks like you made a really significant jump from 41,000 all the way down to that 289 number while you did some of it was you're no longer doing a dedicated 4,000 foot or whatever it was EOC right you're now looking at doing an EOC that's in the training room that's also a conference room that's all also a classroom and that's also a defensive tactics room right and one of the other big changes like I said was that 3500 square foot that really just needed to be allocated differently in the number so when you look at that almost 8,000 square ft was really just reallocation of how can you use your spaces better and to be honest with you Kudos Chief and staff that reviewed this before they really were efficient and how they were looking at things and we were able to get a little bit more efficient but to be honest with you for 20 38 numbers you truly are still looking at about 28,800 ft of need to operate efficiently um moving forward um as we discussed will be expedient but you know Brian and staff several other times in the past have already looked at this in detail our job today isn't to look at this wholeheartedly from hey here's where every parking space is here's where every tiny building's going here's where you know all the that's not our job our job is we want to quickly show you just what some overarching highlevel planning options are and then just understand that when we're showing you these numbers they're inclusive of the rest of the development right so they're inclusive of whatever it would cost for retention and utilities and storm water um but we're going to be very just kind of simple in the options that we show you and that first option would be just basically renovating the public safety building itself the existing building it's approximately a 19,3 63t building right and we our numbers for that would be right around 12, 529,000 to evaluate that or to to renovate that now obviously that 19,000 Square ft isn't enough to accommodate that 288 that we suggested is needed for the complex in itself so another option would be considering to do an Annex um so basically you would construct um a 10,000 ft Annex and you would renate the renovate the existing Public Safety facility so um now doing the annex construction only is going to be about 9.2 million okay so then when you said redo the public safety then it's still back to the 12.5 and then you're adding the 9.2 right and so what we're going to build on that we'll show you some other options um now you may have some question the benefit of an option Like This is Swing space right so that would allow you to potentially build something new use that swing into that and then phase the the construction or renovation of the existing building versus trying to do modulars on site pay for that additional funding so you're basically in essence phasing out your own swing space so that staff can stay operational because that's critically important for these type of facilities so this option is to build a new annex and do nothing to the existing except maybe look at how it's organized but no do no nothing run nothing but you would still have to do something later you would have that option and you would have all the space you need everybody understand that okay again super simple just just looking at the blocks right so this option would be let's build the NX first have that swing space and then come back and renovate the existing Public Safety facility that gets you to the full capacity of the your needs um and that's approximately 21665 right and and again these are all in numbers and actually um Rick in a minute is going to walk you through kind of how we came up with these numbers and show you the breakdowns um another option would be new construction allog together right now we're not suggesting that you're building in two separate locations we're just saying that there's an opportunity U by our evaluation of the site that you could potentially build all new in these two locations location a or location B either location basically we're giving you simple numbers to say that if you built a brand new 29 ,000 ft uh police facility you're looking at about 25.8 million right and that that's all in now what that would do is that would leave the existing Public Safety facility as is and but that would be that would be flexible for the city to determine whatever you wanted to do with that right so some of the cost in renovating that existing public safety building is If You Ren renovate it for its same purpose you have to bring it up to today's code right so today's code is very stringent as far as a central level construction you know that that's evaluating new you know New Foundations new windows new doors missile impact you would potentially need new structure new Roofing but if you went all new and then this facility was left for you know potentially other functions that weren't essential level you know it's less of a renovation if you needed to update things like your mechanical systems and do simple Renovations so hypothetically speaking if we were to very slowly renovate the public safety building could we avoid tripping the need to bring the whole thing up to code no there's no way to avoid it no it's it's not so there are alteration levels in the code that say Hey if you don't hit this threshold but it's not that it's not an alteration level threshold what it is is basically the new code requires police and fire facilities be built to what's called a CL a level four or essential Level facility Well for new but we have a roof that is currently leaking so I would imagine we can replace the roof and not be forced to also replace the windows and then we could next year repipe it and not have to replace the windows I don't think you would be able to fa I I know you would not be able to phase this appropriately and still operate efficient efficiently um with being able to it'd be so compartmentalized to try to do that that it wouldn't be efficient with your dollars um and ultimately what I found in the past with projects like this is it's not just the roof that we're looking at we're talking about the structure for the roof as well um and once you touch that you you're already typically over that threshold of saying now everything's got to come up to code um and ironically the roofing issue is one of those kind of stalemates of you touch that you're pretty much touching everything okay thank you you could also site this to the east if correct that was the preference we didn't show a block there but it could be cited directly to the east to the east or North or North yeah okay so kind kind of the same thing um other in just saying hey let's look at some other locations now you've seen these locations before right there was some pretty great options that showed this option D down there which would which would show a great amount of parking up front you could reuse the parking that's shown kind of on the on the west side of the building and then you would you would U do kind of logistics and other needs for PD behind that but we just again simple blocks of showing you location C or location D where you could potentially do a 29,000 s foot uh brand new PD facility again cost are are the same it's just kind of where we're going at uh on the site so in this this um scenario here is you putting the um building to the east either CD whichever uh and then potentially putting up the existing uh acreage here to the West for sale now looking at that from the current today's dollars uh for that amount really going to get somewhere between two and3 million in in Revenue but you're also taking out a asset that you have of about 19,000 plus square feet Mr Cobb don't we own property we we own some of the property that that fronts Mitchell hammock too right north of that no no this is okay that's no that's it's a lease the perkon proper Oh I thought that there was I I know that where the the the spray fields are I thought that there was still a little no there isn't okay no now actually the white boundary on the map there that's that's our with the exception of clar Lee Evans way the our boundary actually runs over to the west side of clar Lee Evans way U but uh that's pretty much the property boundary for the city's 14 acres well I think what I was looking at was the future land use map fut that that little piece up there okay sorry about that right so the the point of this one is you could uh sell an asset it brings down the cost to the almost 18 million million range um there's also one other option that you could look at which is as Robert said the public private partnership um cut to it um just understand P separate private entity designs builds the PD and it and it finances it and gives it back to you in 20 years um you at least doing that um either 20 to 25 years what sort of speed differential is there with our limitations having to hire people to do it versus public private partnership I'm sorry to say that what sort of how much faster could it be done in a P3 situation versus the government doing it directly I mean in terms of getting it completed um typically you're going to pick up five to seven months and okay most of that's in the procurement and both at the beginning and then when you're negotiating the final details of it the the the design time is a little bit faster as well construction time isn't going to be any faster and the reality is is that you know because we've been evaluated sever of these recently the end cost isn't very much different their their cost might be a little bit higher in some aspects um their time is a little faster similarly you know you can get a slightly better financing rate if you were to do it yourself but it comes down to whether it's a a operating expense issue or a debt debt issue from a P3 effectively it's not going to be much difference between one and one and the other in in dollars so this is a question for our accounting people if we were to do the P3 method methology would we be eligible with this I don't think this expense as a lease would be eligible for referendum for uh well not for the referendum but well not for that either but for the um uh once at sales tax if that were to be renewed because it can't be used for operational expenses is that okay so this would have to be if we did the P3 it would almost have to be a millage rate increase specifically for this that is not a Geo on that is the five of us would have to Simply say we're increasing to cover a lease yeah and I was thinking I didn't really run the numbers on what the actual annual service would be but I can get that back to U Brian here tomorrow morning you have other cities that are doing that I'm sorry there's other projects in other cities that that are doing this yes3 in fact yeah we're we're doing um one underway with the city of AO were getting ready to do a second one with the city of aoi as well um and in fact they were likely they're going to fund one themselves and likely use the lease agreement for the other and we're going through an evaluation right now with pelis C County Fire District for three new new fire stations as well they haven't gotten to the point of making that decision of which way they want to go um obviously it depends on do they have the Reserves do they have the ability to to um issue debt it comes down to so I just can't so why is the P3 so comparable to to us taking out that because our our uh rate is should be less than than a Than A Private Industry currently right now it's not that much different in fact that's what we looked at with with okoi very recently was within uh 0.1 five difference in in rate really from like four four and a quarter to four four .1 now in in the past when rates R higher there was a much bigger difference because yeah I mean you're talking tax exempt versus taxable right um the and then also I mean our our city governments or Municipal governments so less efficient in in procurement that that's where where it's made up unfortunately yes that's itow and it's but it's Universal I mean yeah it we we're working with it in many cities and counties and it's always a common problem because you got a procurement um group that is dealing with all these different types of procurements and this is not a normal procurement for the city or county day in and day out you're getting the you're getting the power and the strength of the private sector negotiation ating prices and schedules and it's just much more expedient and then at the end of the term you you own the building you're you're taking back an asset that's in very good condition and that's going to need a new roof in 10 years and repiped and all this stuff you know the building over there is 30 years old so it's an interesting concept but this goes back to something I mentioned before nobody loves the idea but I'll throw it out there again a P3 makes a lot of sense if there is an actual private component that and kind of fund the public component so for example uh If This Were fire stations instead of a police station stacking five layers of Apartments affordable housing on top and say look you don't have to have a car this is senior senior affordable housing um then the rent from that would be so big that it would actually cover the cost of US leasing back the remainder so the private sector would continue to own the top so in my opinion that is the only way that P3 could potentially work from but I don't think the P3 would give us the apartment complex on top they would give us you guys any projects like that not well colleague of ours with is doing that with looking to do that from the kind of perspective we're not involved in it right at the moment um but it's not very common you don't find very people doing it we I've not encountered them no we could be the first guys I'd love to be a Trailblazer in this and you just legally set it up like a condo so we would own the bottom layer up to X number of feet and then the P3 would continue to own the airspace and the real estate assets above it it's legally doable not above a police station ickly on that yeah there there there's issues with that but but to for for to expedite this along um my my opinion um is I I like the the um build the new building and sell the land um we just have to figure out the timing of that but sell the sell the property the existing of you know the existing footprint of that um because I and I and as the real estate market changes and with all the the downtown you know with the zoning that we gave it for the future land use and everything else I I think that we could you know possibly even get more than more than what what they're you know you've got there but um but that's a good you know good number that gets us within the the money that we've already been been allotted by referendum and the $10 million that we're allowed to do on our own um and then but we do have to create a funding source for that $10 million which back to your point would mean that we would have to increase military something like that well not necessarily the on at sales tax would work for that scenario um as to selling the land I am more inclined to do a land lease than to sell it that is a really valuable asset we do not know what that area will look like in 30 years and if somebody were to buy it and have a depreciable asset and at the end of 30 years they say you know these apartments I intended for them to be trash they're going to be fully appreciate I want the city to be able to control what happens at that time and I think we could probably structure it where that funding is dedicated to debt payment or whatever else we need to do are you said you were going to go through how you got to your square footage cost right because I have I have a lot of questions on that before we discuss options so if we could get to that yeah and there to try to make them as Apples to Apples as possible and what we um utilized are the numbers that we're seeing both for the renovation versus a new construction and I know somebody raised a question about you know why had a number from someone else that was $267 square foot when you look at that you're get a new roof you're getting new air conditioning you're not changing anything inside the building in terms of pro progam Pro programmatically you're just getting a facelift on everything else so if you were to do and I was going to come to to it um recommendation which was two one there's an economical one which is build the annex and then r rovate the the um existing building when you have the money could you talk a little closer to the mic please thank you okay so um you know to me it comes down to either build the annex you know keep the the the existing building operational but when you're designing the annex also design what you would do to renovate the the the no and I and I understand what you're talking about but I guess I'm really just talking about the square footage price um I've brought up for to this Council multiple times you know we just had Castleberry build a police department and I know you guys have heard me say that and they came in at 12.5 million with a do not exceed of 12.8 and they met that and they built 26,000 Square ft I've tored it it hits all the needs um that's down to $492 a square foot and I know that was two three years ago right so they said in today's cost it would have been 15 million which raised it over 30% it was like 35% that's $577 a square foot and that included design and all the soft costs I asked them and so right now I'm looking at what you're you have and without the contingency so if I took out the contingency which is $1 to $2 million you're at $771 a sare foot which is way higher than even if we adjusted their price for 3 years so I'm just wondering why we went from $492 a S foot to 77 71 plus a contingency it just seems like we're still not matching something that was just built down the street so that's my question okay and that's fair and Johnny can answer it as well because he's done a number of these also but on our recent evaluations for uh pelis in particular and this is just on a fire station doing the fire stations the I took going back um to the 2010 and looked at all of the the um facilities that he had done we had done and others I could get my hands on and it Al basically came to for just a fire station about $450 a square foot this building that we're talking about here is much more involved and but you did say pelis County correct right that's on the coast in Tampa that's a much higher Market I think we're all wondering the same thing Castleberry just did it what is different in the quality of finishes or the process that would make it more than double the cost three years later is it's about double is what it sounds like it is about double so one it's about when they bid right they did bid at a good time um and depending on who you ask when you walk through there there are things that they had to set aside and that they're going to have to do later right so if you want to ask them what those items are you should really be counting those back into whatever the cost of the facility is going to be well I guess I'm I'm asking you what they are Miss I I didn't design it we we absolutely would be more than happy to to valuate that and and figure out what some of those it sure it's not my responsibility to to knock someone else's design right and because they did what they needed to do to get the budget right so the real thing is these numbers that we're coming up with are numbers based on recent public safety facilities that are either bidding right now or had just moved in I.E University of Florida Public Safety facility northport's doing a large um three-story $120 million um Public Safety facility right now that includes fire police EOC um city of apaka same thing police fire EOC so our numbers are being generated off of numbers from today um even even bidding three years ago it is a significant difference right so um I'm and I'm not saying your numbers are wrong I'm saying we have a a police station down the street that's if we did it based on their numbers and added in 40% we would be at 5.7 million versus 9.2 I mean that's that's a huge difference so I'm just I would just like to know if we could look into that and see what are the differences and finishes and and features that we or if it's just if we bid the same thing today prices have doubled um and and if that's what it is that's what it is I just we need some justification on the difference sure well that's the purpose of having this discussion is to get direction just like that and that's something we definitely can do and and do a true comparison right where we see everything right yeah if we were to build the same building is it not a 30% increase is it a 100% increase I mean it just seems hard to believe well and and the other benefit of having us at the table is we do have other partners in the industry I.E several contractors I mean you do as well local contractors that that work for you that we could easily and honestly that's where a lot of our numbers are coming from as well was reaching out to them looking at facilities we've been a part of looking at other facilities all over Florida that even maybe we weren't a part of but um we can do a cost comparison of you know let's take five or six recently completed facilities let's let's include a couple of those that were done at the same time as Castleberry right and look at those real time Apples to Apples dollars of when when uh Castleberry was bid and and kind of justify these numbers okay and then I don't I don't know if this helped but they also use like a semar type process so I don't know if that's something we should be looking into how they kind of project management to help us save as we go down this road absolutely that's the way we prefer to do it that way oh yeah absolutely yeah because you're you're going to the market and and bidding the job to the trade contractors and then you know making sure you're getting everything you're supposed to get before you go fin price okay so we're big applicants of that yeah we have done quite a few CM at risk projects so I guess as far as picking options um it's just hard for me to pick one if I don't know the actual cost because if we come back and it is more in between um I mean that could change which direction we're going so the way we were actually engaged initially was that we would come to this workshop and narrow it down to two and go a little further and based on these these conversations okay and if I were to recommend evaluating one would be an economical choice which is you build the annex and renovate the uh existing building could you talk a little closer to mik please yeah I'm sorry I'm not as loud as he is um one would be the um um build the annex and then design it the the build out of the um existing p uh public safety building and then do that when it's either you're complete with the annex or whenever you want to spend the rest the money the other which is a planning uh recommendation is to put a new building over on the west side of the proper east east side of the property um mainly that gives you the option number one you can maintain your existing facility that you have there for whatever Civic need you might have number two you could sell the land as I said um or lease I said or lease or or lease um but then the other um advantage of going to the East End of the property is you can get a much tighter tightly designed overall site plan and one of the things that quite honestly with this site is the way they were built it's not overly efficient with the overall um acreage that you have in this case if you moved as much of that you you could over there you could really tighten things up and still end up with the same and or more U uh building opportunity Chief what do you want I kind of think I know the answer but that's a tough question to answer oh just answer it well I look at the costs I I'm I'm a more of a Frugal guy than not but what I the options the easiest one is a single building uh a new building gives you you can design what you need into it and you make the efficiencies inside the building better renovating the public safety building you still have half of it is a fire department currently so it's the efficiency is everybody's been in that building uh there's a lot of space is just not usable that being said an Annex would be better than def an Annex in renovation is better than um what we currently have by far uh it would make meet the needs U but if you ask me what what I'd like to have it would be the single building 29,000 sare ft yeah that's only thing that makes sense I it's it's a 133% cost differential uh doing a brand new building versus not and then it can go anywhere and it can be financed in a variety of ways if we're locked into that location it's we're locked in well I think you could just take the annex just the annex alone out I mean we wouldn't just do the annex and not you know retro the building next to it so that option I think you can take out just gives you ability to phase it yeah yeah which I do I do like the idea I mean that you could phase into but um I'm not a fan of selling the land if you went with the new build option as well there's ways of phasing a new build that you could treat it just like you would if you were doing just the annex component where you're phasing a portion of the new build you're using that as swing space then you're building the second portion of the new build and so I think you could and then we had the the the Dilemma of what we had before if we did a new building you still have the old building correct you know what do you do with it you know obviously retro is 12 million um demoing it I think we we talked about that before too what is like demoing it's like a million it's 90 grand to demo 90 grand we already got a price Brian had a price for that I'm I'm sure Chief would go over there and help too that's a waste of a building but a bridge to cross later right now I guess we need to get you guys two the two things to move forward which it sounds like you can't really pick one and well I I'm definitely in favor of doing one building versus two I think okay so everybody's on board know what you guys are in favor I'm just the price point honestly I think we're looking at a 15year space need instead of a what was it before 430 is that 40 so we went from 40 Years of need to 15 to kind of lower that size we need so I would love to see if um we are able to get the numbers down if that's realistic or not so we'll do a benchmark study if that's one of the things you'd like us to do for a new and I guess that's something I like but I well I was going to say though as far as the price point I think we're we're at a much better price point I would just like to add square footage and see if we can get further out in our needs versus um reducing the size I guess and being outgrown by 20 was it 38 38 yeah like maybe maybe it's okay to have a cement floor instead of an official type of flooring well my my former employer when we when we built our our new building we actually we called it the black hole we we built out like we built the building for future needs but we didn't finish that section um you know we just basically put a roof over it and windows around it and that was it you sh part of the yeah and maybe maybe looking at doing something like that and seeing what the cost would be to get us to that additional square footage that we need to get to the you know the 30-year 40-year buildout I just don't want to outgrow it but well especially if we're putting it in a new spot and selling off land um which I know you're not in favor no I'm not in favor of that but me either okay okay so we're not doing that um but but but I want to make sure that we have a big enough footprint um that we for that future expansion so that we're not having to build another building you know after 2038 completely so agree with that if that's an option hey chief when you looked at these Concepts um one of these things that's popular is this hotel concept when you talked about usage of the areas where you have a room with a bunch of uh computer links where it doesn't matter who sits there they can just walk in any day is that part of this this layout absolutely Chiefs and Chief and his staff made some some pretty good concessions as far as I mean traditionally uh police station going to have quite a few workstations or um hoteling desk as you as you mentioned um and I would say a significant portion of of the space is just that h hoteling of the desk sharing of the desk especially in the Patrol department and uh uh other areas so they definitely looked at that okay is that included in here you know I don't want to see a a systems Furniture where each each police officer has its own desk because that's that seems really inefficient to me there were mult multip mle uh units that they that established shared desking so y okay does do any of these Concepts or I should say do all of them include securing the area yes they do okay even the annex uh onto the existing building yes any of the locations that we propos there's there's ways of providing the secured area the logistic storage the the secure uh Logistics parking area that PD would require okay uh I was going to ask if the if the renovation concept what it involved with the fire station in that mezanine area but I don't think we're going in that direction so I'm going to not do that I mean I can answer it real quick if you want because I know there were previous studies where you evaluated evaluated adding another floor in that mezzanine area our study strictly took the 19,000 ft as is and you know you basically would be getting it and renovating it right so we wouldn't our option did not propose the Second Story above that space okay but but the second story of the fire station that living space and kitchen area you did include some sort of renovation for that corre right okay okay um you know I I like what you're doing I think this is good ROM numbers it's I did this for a lot of years uh we're looking five years into the future at at best probably uh most of the time when I gave a ROM number it was either anywhere from 50% low or or 100% low to 50% High other words that price could go up 100% in that 5 years it might go down 50% but that never happens uh so I understand the the uh the uncertainty in these numbers um I'd rather not come in five years from now and say we have the issue like a poka has they're looking for a lot of money to to cover the the shortfalls so and there's a 20% contingency in these numbers too yeah uh but I do think we need to look to the future we need to cover all the needs for what we think we're going to need into the future whether we do something that's unfinished and and and finish it out as we need it or but I think we need the space for the city so that we're not having to add an Annex to the annex or Annex to the new building sure and I think when when you get there those type of options need to be looked at I.E is it shelling out space is it looking at an opportunity to build a second floor eventually over a first level right or is it expanding on the building in a way that when you build your first phases you're paying attention to where utilities goes and where parking goes so that you're not coming back and redoing those things later on when you shouldn't have to right so those are the type of things that kind of come as you know later on down the road and options that your designer should be looking at yeah okay so it looks like out of the four options we got a a new Option One new option two I guess one's to the north and one's to the east oh okay they're both to the east right there no I was I'm looking at those so they're both to the East and uh the the annex plus renovation and the annex I think we can reduce those so I think we're down if you want two options to look at those and and I think it's a little early to decide whe what we want to do with the existing space when it when it's all done we can sell or release or do whatever we want 5 years from now but we got time to to look at that and our thought process was if you went this option of building new it's it's a good flexible option for the city because you just you have just that what do we do with that existing building you know and ultimately if the city determines that hey it comes down and it gets repurposed to something else okay that's your choice if it's sold off if it's leased that's your choice if it's a small renovation to it so it can be used for additional City growth that I know you guys are busting out of the seams here right that's the city's choice so in our minds if you do the option of building new it's just a little bit more flexible for you okay and getting back to my ROM I I assume as we go through the process we'll update these numbers based on reality yes and and I can tell you I should have said this before I'm comfortable with where these numbers came from and how we generated them but we have absolutely no problems in helping putting where that came from on the screen for you so you can see what's happening with other department with other areas around the state because I mean and when we do that I typically like to include stuff on coasts I like to include stuff on the other coast because they have a factor over there I call I call it the Sarasota Factor right you pretty much add another $100 a square foot right so we don't want to be giving you those dollars but it's good to see what they're doing so um yeah task us with that and we have no problem putting that together for you okay appreciate it I I did have one more question I guess um you know we wish we had built this like 10 years ago so how fast will we be able to move this forward is this something if we had to put it on a referendum this year is that possible as as far as the design or the construction or additional funds I mean as far as how we the mass says we need about what 15,000 we got 11,000 on the current referendum do 11,400 11 million approved 114 22 13 yeah I'm just I mean we might have to put that up I mean 13 million is better than what was it 36 million it's a lot better yeah but I'm just saying like do we still have time to put that on this year even the private partnership is interesting yeah if we went in that direction too and and and if you're interested in a future Workshop of you know further details on the you know the p3s and what other opportunities come along with that we can uh absolutely you know help secure that for you yeah I think we definitely be interested to hear more about that you know I got do have to ask a question and I don't mean to go back on it but obviously this is significantly different than what we put in front of the voters um and I wish we had been at this point when we were going to the voters and having that conversation and your guys attention because we're also talking about a third fire station down the road if we do something like that where where could we approved in this process I mean did was it because we tried to do it internally uh we didn't come to you guys I mean there's there's a big disconnect to saying 43 million down to 25 million I mean your guys's opinions to where where we went wrong when we went to the voters were too high I don't I don't know that you went wrong and I don't know that these numbers are significantly different as far as the cost per square foot and and that I think what was shown in the what went to the voters was the full 40,000 square feet correct yeah cut out so that's the difference I I I know you did you did use us as a sounding board for as a sounding board I me I just think this this probably would have had a little bit more legs to it I I think the difference was the just the larger building right the 40 some th000 sare foot versus versus this yeah okay just just trying to get learning lessons I I you know we've we've done this a lot with a lot of municipalities and I can tell you Brian and his team were very very thorough and uh I don't we don't get that a lot um so as far as your no and I wasn't trying to knock down just but as far as your internal process when you look back at what can we learn from what we did and you know what can we do better going forward because this won't be the only project that we have like this right um it'd be nice for those who don't know what construction management at risk is to have a CM 101 included in one of the updates we certainly can do it yes yeah and I think if you're interested I mean Rick if you agree I mean there's other methodologies as well procurement methods I mean you've got CM CM CM at risk you've got design build and you've got hard bit right and P3 on top of what we showed so there's really kind of four procurement methods that are really out there and I think we could pretty quickly and succinctly tell you the pros and cons to all four and maybe Brian make sure our proc urement system set up to do each one of those I do know that we have um we're already set up to do design build even though the process was established a long time ago so it would have to be re-evaluated I believe uh I know semar we have discussed uh in the past I know Public Works is very interested in using that process I'm not so sure if we're set up for it yet um we are not set up for P3 I can say that for sure but that would be more or less agreements more than anything so what what I would say to that is we've actually worked with cities and counties in helping them with that procurement process because uh we've done over a 100 design build projects which are in essence CM at risk with design on right we've done probably close to 100 cm at risk risk projects and you know the short version if you everything you want to know to about your building and you you design it to that and you get the drawings done um a hard bids a good good product good um delivery method if you have any ability to to um Define what you want conceptually and and at least have some outline specifications if you will both as a criteria of the program as well as the building you can do design build um the CM at risk where really it comes into play is you're BR you're involving the contractor on a on a Consulting basis to get to a number and that number then in state of Florida to use it for agency it's basically open book so they will go out they'll they'll um uh Goose The Market on getting them ready for upcoming bid they'll reach out to subs and they'll they'll bid it publicly and then they'll put their whole um GMP proposal together review it with us to make sure that there's no anomalies in there and it's it's one way of getting very open um bidding and getting the right quality of what you want and the biggest misconception with semr is that it people think it doesn't you're not going through the bid process you still are they still have to go out and get multiple bids but they're just showing you the numbers and you as the owner have a right to to say well they may be the low bidder but maybe they're not the most low qualified bidder and you as the owner can make the decision on who you want to use so um I mean those are the type of pros and cons we could bring to the table in all of those formats if you're interested it really boils down to yeah it boils down to risk management and all these different procurement methods so in lumps on bid you know once you award the contract you know you're no longer in charge of managing your risk you you've turned it all over to the GC with CM at risk when you have the right management team then you can manage the risk to get the job for a cost certain and a schedule certain outcome right so we can discuss all that so city of Sanford when they first hired us they were doing nothing but lumps on bid so they hired us to manage a new Clubhouse that's going to be built in Mayfair which is breaking ground next month and we convince them to use the CM at risk approach right and then we're going to manage all that for them and we'll go to the market we'll bid to the trade contractors and then we'll button up a GMP and that's what will take us to cost certainty and delivery certainty so yeah hard bit is difficult right now because it's a volatile market right there's so many unforeseen things that can happen and like Rick said if you don't have everything your te's crossed eyes dotted it's change order City usually Mr design build uh isn't it dangerous to have changes during design build well in in again as a a public agency there's a a a process you have to go through based on um Florida Statutes number one you have to hire someone like us to O put together design criteria package and then you have to hire someone like us to oversee the design and construction so they're making sure that there's a professional in in in between you and the design but it's one of those where I tell any client if you know all of the things that you want in your building that's a good good way to go if you don't you'd be better off going through the design process and doing a CM agree so we want to try to summarize where we think you're telling us to go or at least what I think and then you can tell me if I'm right or wrong so um go back and review the cost estimate for building new at roughly 29,000 Square ft get some Benchmark information for similar projects that have been built and so we can look at that together and we'll local as possible and we'll true we'll true up the the estimate right and we'll have back up can you apply it to the Retro and the annex project as well um yeah we can yes yeah so that's that's one assignment right to do that and that's for the 288 28,800 square feet wa for anything new I just I guess a square footage price um and I guess you know to to council member Britain's point you know if we're projecting we go to bid in three years and if that's you know inputed into that and we put that just broken down just we could see it that would yeah we'll put a schedule together a little more detailed say here are the milestones okay okay so this just came up I you you may have already said it but the 29,000 square feet Chief that's gets us out to how big of a force 15 years just a 2038 projection okay so are these concepts are they able to have annexes add to them are growth for for the future beyond that considering they're just little lines right now yes yeah okay right I you know I'm just saying make it scalable so that in the future we're not having to do a major you know cutting down walls we it can be designed for future expansion so everything's already in place right okay yeah yeah we can as we move forward and add further detail we can show some expansion opportunities up if we have to so the second assignment is that to do a deep dive on a P3 structure for this if we were to I don't think that's useful I see we've got Bond Council hanging in the back here I I think we may need to pause and have a discussion about how we would Envision funding any of these uh mainly the one that we want to do which is probably the 28 or you know 20 258 uh price point which we don't have enough to do uh so Mr C I don't know what you think would be the best flow to the discussion but I think you guys have as much direction as you can get potentially until you get back with us on some stuff and until we can become comfortable with a higher price point in some form fashion does that sound like a summary of where we're at are you like P3 I I'm still curious about it well I I will send you information on it regardless I mean just so you understand what the pieces and parts are and what some of the lease options how you know really it is kind of the same so if Mr Pollock's thought is we'll just do $10 million in debt and we will raise taxes that sixes the one half doz of the other because we'd have to fund a lease the same exact way uh and then we would get it faster yeah I'd just like to learn more about I me could you say again it's five months faster I mean it's the cost could be rly the same it's but I think it as to us right now we need to know which of us is comfortable raising millage and how much additional millage would it take outside of a go Bond or would we rather do the Geo Bond because we right now the way this is shaping up is either we can take the Geo Bond we have now issue additional debt or we do the Geo Bond we have now we figure out how information to understand what what we're looking at and then obviously understand when we get to that point okay go in that direction well do we have numbers from anybody on what The Debt Service would look like on 20258 I I'll send something tomorrow okay to Brian because then then we could at least begin to look and say oh we get 3.2 from the 1 cent sales tax and we you how much run 20 years 25 years yeah but we need that one sales tax for other things but we only use about half of it for roads so if we take the storm water and the um you the things that have their own dedicated funds and we actually fund them from those funds instead of the on in sales tax that would liberate once in sales tax money for things like this yeah well well but if we are thinking on the goo Bond idea what might make sense is to have that discussion really fast because it would need to go on the November ballot well hello there um I'm Mark Al and I'm with Hilltop secur your financial advisor um while I don't have exactly um originally when I looked at some of the numbers I took a little bit different approach because to do 25 million you would have to just go out and you could stick with your current go could you talk a little closer please yes you can basically go out like we tried to do on the original um is that you go back for another go that's one option um the other option that you have is that you could turn around and it's it's is issue $10 million without voter referendum if you move forward with that you can almost straddle it to the point where you know we issue the debt before um December and then next issue you do the extra five million on the um the following year um or the other option that you have is that you turn around you just issue the goo you issue the um 10 million worth of new money and then you internally fund the difference between the 25 and the 20 million or 22 million at that point I mean you could indeed if you wanted to wait until you got the um if the infrastructure sales tax tax you could use that debt or that money to help pay for the debt service so I mean you've got a lot of options so when you say G what would be the debt service on 25 million um I mean if we did right now just kind of give you an idea Debt Service on an um on a Geo would be approximately I think it was about6 to 700,000 for the first 11 million for another um the whole big Shaboom like what's what how what would our payments be annually if we just did the whole thing allinone trunch 258 the only way you could do that is do a go exactly but what would that would even if we didn't do a goo if we took out the 10 million in debt and we took out the go the the what the voter referendum we I think what she's asking is just what our payment would be oh you no matter where it comes from what is the payment it would be close around to if I'm looking at it correctly and Joel you can correct me Jo part6 million that's it and that would be for a 30y year presumably a 30-year loan yeah but we're only building out to 15 years so what if we amortised it for 15 years I mean I guess that no you wouldn't want to do it 15 that 15 would kill you I mean give you an idea just to do if you use the every penny that you had on the um next gen assuming three and a um approximately three million over a 10-year period you could find about 23 to $24 million but you would use up your full amount I mean ideally the way in which you would probably structure if you were going to try to minimize the impact on your budget is that you've got two loans that are going to mature in the next three years um which would free up about $700,000 worth of debt service now once again freeing it up is one thing but you've historically used the paying up Debt Service to be able to um cover any um Municipal I think it was inflation was the right word that um um that Jerry used but as far as from a Debt Service perspective you could go ahead and be able to do this um so there's ways to be able to squeeze it the problem you have is that no matter what if you issue more than 10 million you're going out for a referendum unless of course you go um and if it's a lease I I'll let Bond Council um talk about that's debt so you're still going to end up having to pay for The Debt Service that that doesn't go away so the the real question just becomes now do how much money you want to pay or can't afford to pay and two how do you get it because of the restrictive covenants that um or Charter provision that you have well I'll just throw it out there right now I am not comfortable supporting raising the millage just to borrow it the voters said no granted it was for a huge amount but I would rather go back out to the voters and have dedicated certain funding source straight from the voters like I said one of the options that you have although it's not going to get you enough money is to be able to turn around and to um issue the 10 million delay principle used assuming the infrastructure sales tax passes then you could use that for the three years at The Debt Service which means you'd have to front about U $450,000 per year for each year from the infrastructure sales tax but at least at that point if you did that then the other um at least 700 ,000 would be available without impacting but there is no free lunch as you guys are well aware of it right well it sounds like there's some options and I don't know that we're going to decide this tonight no we're not I I I think the biggest thing we needed tonight was what we wanted to pursue and I believe from what I'm hearing the two options that you're interested in are building the annex and renovating and then build building a brand new obviously brand new is one and building the building an Annex and renovating is two once we go in and refine those numbers that's when Mark and his team as well as Mr Smith can then come in and give us advice on well here's how you can pay for it and obviously the 11.4 one of the things you have to be guarded on is the 10 million the charter says we can do up to 10 million in a calendar year provided our financial adviser says that we have the money to fund The Debt Service we can't use the debt we can't use the millage for Debt Service in other words we would be paying we have to dedicate a funding source like um Ador revenues yes non Ador revenues like like the sales tax we have non Ador revenues to yes if you Ador revenues can only be used for the geobot oh yeah so but when you're looking at when you're looking at the non-ab alarms you're looking at those franchise fees you're looking at those utility taxes you're has that always been that way I thought you could always mayor I think probably what you're you conceptually you throw in debt service you've got to make it up whereas it can be non-ad bor revenues the problem is that non-ad Bor revenues was used for services and other items which would then cause you to have to raise your operating Mill that you are legally not allowed to use Ador revenues to pay for non goo type of debt interesting okay so it's a show game there's one big bu yeah I just I didn't know the technicality of that the mill to pay for those other things that you took yeah gotcha interesting well is there any interest from anybody else in putting this back out to the voters in November because well why don't we why don't we finish this part and then we'll come back to that okay well just to answer your question we've got to adopt the ordinance in July so we have till July to make a decision and get ready to adopt in order to make the November 5th ballot we've got to adopt the ordinance in July Oh I thought it was do we need public hearings before that well it'll be it will be a public hearing yes we'll have two readings like we did last year so when would that have to start like the beginning of June we last year we started in the second meeting in June we did first reading and then we did a workshop and then we had the second reading the second meeting in July so if we made all of our decisions by the end of May it could happen it's possible okay early June or early June or early June we could sque early June I think I think you're yeah early June's going to be more but just like as far as you know we've got not a lot of time we not no it it'll be compressed just like we did last year okay and this will be the last item on a huge ball but people will remember the big number and they'll be like that seems lower so do you guys have everything you need yeah I think we do and Brian you can just follow up and confirm tomorrow we can certainly support uh Community awareness initiatives relative to a referendum if that's what you decide to do and we can put together a tour right with the right kind of message and I think one thing that I think will be appealing is the number is going to be a good bit lower than it was and that that could be a a very POS thing as long as it's messaged the right way and in the right forums right so we certainly can support that and help okay all right anything else no great thank you very much we're thank you guys enjoyed it sir back