good evening on behalf of the governing body of the city of Pake we welcome you to the February 20th 2024 city council meeting in accordance with chapter 231 public laws of 1975 adequate notice of this meeting was provided by resolution of the municipal Council adopted on January 13 2023 setting forth the schedule of meetings for the year 2023 2024 that notice was published and posted on the city hall bulletin board by the office of the city please be further suris this meeting will be conducted in person the zoom stream provided is for viewing only and is offered to the public as a convenience on February 7th 2024 public notice and zoom instructions for this meeting were published in the Herold news and posted on the city of Pake website www.city estate.com Council agendas instructions are also available on the last page of this agenda please be guided accordingly roll call please counc president councilwoman Melo present councilwoman Garcia councilwoman colom monz and council president shair President we are acquired will you please rise heavenly father thank you for allowing us to meet this evening Lord we ask you to please guide us in the decisions that will take place this evening in your beloved name we pray amen I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America for stands good evening it looks like we have a number of special guests tonight which is very very exciting for everyone who would like an agenda for tonight's meeting and you don't already have one they are available by going on to the city's website at that website you will find all background information uh in terms of all the ordinances and resolutions and Communications that the council receives uh based upon the administration's input and desire um the council will then dispose of all items um as required tonight we are very excited to have a special a special uh Gathering honoring a number of people who are buting artists from what I understand um mayor Laura I believe you're the one who asked this be J and are in fact the curator of the museum where we're going to be putting all these in the future yes council president thank you so very much I joined with you and our colleagues on the city council along with our department heads in the city of Pate to congratulate these young artists we're so excited as they represent our city and I would like to read that the P County had hosted the my County poster calendar contest and received an impressive 730 post entries one student from Pake one and five received honorable mentions we were so excited because from that huge large number to be uh recognized to have honorable mention it just highlights the talent within our city the potential that we have growing and developing within our schools I want to thank their teachers their parents their principles we have Educators here that are with us and most of all I want to thank these young leaders in our city for the amazing efforts so we have some certificates we're going to begin with our winner for March's artwork and did we have the poster here Madame clerk did they bring the poster we will have the poster up on the city website so if we can ensure that we get the post up on the city website we would very much appreciate it but our first uh recipient of this certificate from the mayor's office and the city council and the winner of the March artwork from Sonia Sodom mayor School number 21 Miss walk Walkin aino Walkin arino Mr Walkin arino we're gonna ask if you can come up with your family and and the principal please come up to receive please come up with your family and the principal get certificates you can come up on the day because you can draw better absolutely so welcome present you this certificate on behalf of our city on behalf of Mayor Hector c r our city council in the city of Pake we congratulate you on winning the P County 28th Annual my County poster calendar contest and having your artwork chosen to represent the month of March this is an amazing achievement that you will always remember and we are so very excited for you soic ask principal to come up your teachers come on up yes keep that artwork going have the whole counsel I I'll get closer everything more than you congratulations this time we also want to call up Aon commo Aon commo honorable mention Dr Martin Luther King Junior School number six Erin come up with your with your family on behalf of the mayor of the city of pan our city council in the city of Pake we congratulate you on receiving honorable mention as a participant in the Pake County's 28th Annual my County poster calendar contest being recognized among 730 entries is truly commendable and we take pride in acknowledging your notable accomplishments great job come on up good everyone right right here two two congratulations we also want to call up for honorable mention from the Pake gifted and talented academy School Number 20 AIA vas Aaliyah vquez on behalf of the mayor's office in the city council We join together to congratulate you on receiving honorable mention as a participant in the B County's 28th Annual my County poster calendar contest and being recognized among 730 entries this is a truly commendable achievement and we take pride in acknowledging your hard work congratulations right here one two what an exciting night if we could have responses from the council in terms of this wonderful presentation councilman love please yes thank you council president um first let me Begin by saying I'm very partial to students in the city of Pake for a number of reasons one being an administrator in this great city um brings me uh more than enough Joy um before I forget let me just thank the mayor for taking this init initiative um it and the initiative to highlight kids for a lot of different reasons it means a lot it will encourage them to continue on with what they're doing and in terms of one of the things that wasn't talked about the poster contest is I know each of the students and they're great academically as well so that that's something that we need to continue so um to the children thank you for continuing to put that positive light on our city um so often we get Negative um reports and and um ran on our city but you guys are are the hope of our future and I feel good about it being in your hands thank you thank you councilman councilwoman Mel please thank you council president um first I would like to thank the mayor for this Initiative for recognizing these children so they also I mean you recognizing them motivates other children to participate next year and to the parents for encouraging your kids because we know they are allowed to express themselves through ART and art is a great thing and encouraging the kids to to not be shy to continue and to the administrators thank you for for pushing those kids and being so involved because it does take a village to to raise these kids especially in today's climate so by participating showing up and encouraging the children and being visible that means a lot to the children and to the kids keep up the good work um guys are at the future so we're hoping that in a f in the near future you guys will be the on sitting here and recognizing other children congratulations thank you councilwoman councilwoman I did all everything that my partners just said especially they great speakers um I'm just want to say that I'm very proud of you um keep up the good work I know you can do it I'm just looking forward to seeing the pictures I'm sorry I didn't get to see it but we do look forward to seeing them and we hope to see you even in higher ups thank you thank you councilwoman uh on behalf of the entire Council number one mayor thank you for this initiative it's a wonderful wonderful thing uh um when we talk about school too often we talk about only the academic portion we forget to speak about sports we forget to speak about music and art and so many other things which are clearly so functional and so important in the development of anyone and certainly any child five we have four runners up and we have one total winners that get married we we actually yes we had five Runners up and one winner and we had 730 children from across p County entered the contest yes and six of them came from the city of pic huge that is a unbelievable response an unbelievable response and it speaks not only to to our children but to their parents to their school administrators to their teachers to everyone involved with them this is so exciting I was going to say councilman love councilwoman Meo councilwoman col mon I'm not so sure if you should we should sit and and wait for you your budding talents they've already occurred all I want to know is where I get a signed copy of some of these beautiful beautiful paintings and and everything else because I think they're going to be worth a lot of money but whether they're worth a lot of money or not they're worth a whole lot to us in terms of recognizing you for all that you do and we thank you so very much on behalf of the city of pic council president also if I can name those that could not make it the additional uh honorable mentions guel Martinez valz of Thomas Jefferson School number one vion Melo honorable mention theater Jefferson School number 10 and Ryan Ramirez honorable mentioned Ellen AOA School number 22 uh we congratulate all those that participated also I know uh Miss Aaliyah Vasquez her mother Bice who's an educator in the school and obviously Miss Tiffany Crockett who is with us here principal of the school and I I always call her for uh pictures and for opportunities to name her because she gets extremely upset at me and then she yells at me letting her privately and gets me back when I go by the school but I want to thank all the parents Educators obviously administrators who work so hard to encourage our students thank you council president thank you mayor um and council president if I may I coun love I do have assigned a personalized a painting several from Aaliyah so uh for the right price we can talk later okay cel's going to be known for taking advantage of of Youth labor um before I call upon the mayor um this is wonderful of you to come we're now getting into the part of the meeting where the mayor will uh share with the council and share with everyone here uh the latest goings on in pic followed by resolutions followed by ordinances um and if it gets a little late for anyone or it's a little late now and you feel you need to go please don't hesitate um we love the fact that you're here we love the fact that you'll be here when you don't win an art Prize or more importantly maybe when you win your next one at this point mayor I may trouble you for your update sure we have uh some brief updates we want to share that on Saturday February 10th the African-American Black History Month uh program was held at the senior center which celebrated Black Culture through a variety of activities including African dances poetries readings monologues singing performances and a multicultural Feld least additionally a display table was set up with information of black inventors explorers and Poets a total of 130 senior citizens attended and participated in this festivity we continue to encourage and highlight our amazing diversity in our city and the intergenerational participation in these activities having young people with our senior citizens I want to highlight our head of seniors Francine wise and all those who work so so hard along in the community to make this program successful also on Sunday February 11th we held our 7th annual Super Bowl party for those in need or those who are homeless we held it at our dignity house at 276 Broadway where we hosted this Super Bowl party for unhoused population or unhoused population from 9:00 am to 1 pm individuals had access to showers they received clothing they got free haircuts I want to take this opportunity to College Dynasty barber shop in the city of Pake for providing ours to cut hair Rosie baralis who uh did the hair styling for women who find themselves without homes jalapenos ricoy Pizzeria aiua uh that provided the food and uh joined and partnered with many of us who donated food also Cindy Gomez of recreation Weatherly fries Katherine Flynn the fountain church and other community members along with Pastor Harrison Sanchez and many others who showed up to support assist and watch the game with us it was an exciting game that uh kept us at the edge of our seats to the very end upcoming events Saturday March 2nd we will have read Across America from 12 pm to 2 PM at the Annabelle uh Senior Center where we will have our paciic Recreation Department inviting all to come and celebrate read Across America with an afternoon of treats Arts cfts games Story Time and reading registration is required and can be done through the Civic wreck or in person at the department of recreation as I mentioned that will be a brief uh announcement of certain events that have occurred and some that are upcoming I'll reiterate that our council president has stated after this announcement the families and the children are free to go you don't have to stay for the entire meeting we know that you have school tomorrow thank you thank you any questions for the mayor this time very good moving on to our agenda R numeral six hearing of citizens in accordance with the open public meetings act and 104-1 at SEC the council opens every public meeting for comments of the public however in accordance with njsa 10 col 4-12 nothing in this act shall be construed to limit the discretion of a public body to permit prohibit or regulate the active participation at any meeting therefore please be advised that the council will not entertain any comments from persons who communicate obscene material make statements which are considered bias intimidation in which a person intends to intimidate any individual or group because of race color religion and gender handicap sexual orientation or ethnicity or makes comments in intending to harass or speak any offensive language the person who makes these statements will relinquish their alloted five minutes for public discussion um if you would like to address the council the council looks forward to your comments uh we remind you that everyone who is invited to speak has five minutes and five minutes only the clerk has a buzzer which will buzz at the end of four minutes leaving one minute to remain we also ask that you share with us your name only is there anyone who would like to address the council yes sir good evening council president good evening Council good evening mayor my name is Yos W I live at 71 Spring Street first of all if we can get this mic fixed so that people can actually be heard that would be nice I do want to ask the city council how we are having a meeting tonight a day after a legal holiday the agenda for tonight's meeting was uploaded today a mere hours before the actual meeting was to take place on the agenda it says that the documents can be accessed by the shared file at the top the shared file only had bills to be paid there's nothing else to be seen additionally at this time there's actually a zoning board meeting taking place at the exact same time and I'm wondering with all this taking place how is there a public meeting taking place I would like to ask in addition to the students who were so respected and congratulated and celebrated I would like to ask that this meeting everyone in this room actually go home as well I would like this meeting to have proper public notice on the Sunshine Law I don't know how anyone could have gone through anything without any backup and with the no with the agenda itself only being uploaded today mere like I said a few hours before I would like this agenda to be adjourned right now if this if this meeting does continue I do want to ask about the resolution um that's an number 34 authorized an agreement with twins investment and developers to receive up to $2.5 million in home fronts from the city of P for development of an affordable rental project this brings to mind the $5 million that was allotted to a developer yet to be named um on Broadway from American reconstruction funds from covid this developer purchased this property a mere 6 months ago for $825,000 on the on Zillow you can check up it says that this property is a approved 12 unit property it is two units of affordable housing the city is offering a fiveyear tax AB payment and $100,000 in Partnership for for affordable housing somehow this developer was able to come up with the cash because it was a cash sale no contingencies and this developer is now going to partner up with the city on a less than 10,000 square foot lot and I want to know how this developer from Wayne New Jersey is getting up to $2.5 million for this project I would propose to the city that they find other ways to bring the cost of living in pic both in taxes and in rent rent is skyrocketing pic is becoming unaffordable but somehow Ser developers are walking away with millions of dollars in tax breaks and funds that seem to be directed only to a select few those are my comments thank you thank you Jonathan yes Jonathan if you could come closer please this is anual right thank you for your comments sir and let me try to uh respond uh if I may after having consulted with uh the city's attorney and that is that uh we number one we apologize the day after uh illegal holidaying is always a little bit difficult to get everything done on time and I know our clerk was anxious to do everything and uh much to our amazement did not do everything but might have dropped a little bit um but I know she put in tremendous work as did her office as it always does I am informed nonetheless that what is legally required what is required by law is that each and every year uh at reorganization the uh city council issues a list of dates of all meetings that list can change but that list did not change for uh for the meeting of tonight uh and in fact adequate notice was presented to the public when passed by the city council at its reorganization meeting prior so we commiserate we certainly look forward to Residents and and uh everyone else being made aware of meetings coming to meetings and showing their interest in asking necessary questions uh but in terms of coverage there is no requirement for the city or this Council to do anything except note your complaint okay I believe they do need to give 48 hour notice if they have the agenda um I'm just stating that and that's okay because I believe that it's wrong I think a lot of things that are going on tonight can happen in two weeks and the city is always doing things last minute why don't they take a twoe break and push everything two weeks forward so people can actually know what's going on in the city and if the city is going to continue the meeting I'm going to sue the city within 45 days to have everything going on tonight anold so that it can be stated that what's go goes on is not acceptable okay that's just I'm letting you know okay we note you concern and complaint I'm going to go to the zoning board meeting because there's a prop around the corner for me so I can't attend both meetings so I have to go to the zoning board but thank you we uh unfortunately won't have your presence for the rest of the meeting council president if I may just um the 48 hours just to clarify is when we need to make notice that we will have a meeting not 48 hours to make documents available by law this body and the clerk met all of its legal obligations these meetings were not only posted as to the dates that they would occur but appropriate as you mentioned public notice have been sent to all the media so that sometimes people get confused when the agenda is available I would ask that those that watch online that if you have a problem downloading a document we'd ask say you call when you have that problem during the DAT so we can make sure to get you access because if you if you wait to the meeting to let us know that you weren't able to download it may be an issue just with one individual and others were able to download the agenda so the sooner we know the quicker it is for us to address thank you man' again this is something which is inadvertent apologize to the public on behalf of the council but nonetheless there is no debate or second thought as to the legality of the meeting the councilman love please yes um this this actually is a question here for the attorney because if if I'm not mistaken I I thought that putting it up online was a courtesy uh if from what I understand if folks wanted to know what was going on in the meeting they had obligation to come to the city clerks and or open for that information is is that am I correct with that that's correct coun okay so um the city putting it up on the website was an initiative by the mayor and administration to make uh documents even more available to individuals it's not something that we have to do correct that's right there's no requirement to publish anything on the internet thank you very good anyone else like to adjust the council please yes sir I would like to address the council my name is Shania Happy New Year I haven't seen you since last year um there was a child and her father hit by a car on Summer Street right in front of a school I haven't seen anything placed there yet to safeguard the place it's not many safeguards around any of our schools I mean in Pake Park Maybe not the other wordss I mean it doesn't make sense how can it be so safe in one area of a city yet other areas are struggling so hard and we don't know what to do can we place State mandated pedestrian walkways near number seven at least given the circumstances that there were two people hit will Scott Street and Myrtle could use a pedestrian walkway as well if we go to number 19 school on Main Avenue there's an open sewage Maine and Harrison that needs to be fixed because the children have to walk past there I noce in Pake Park that the children don't have to walk past liquor stores so many of them too lick stores and smoke shops our children have to why why is it such a difference we all live in the same town I'll move on to the pollution issue that we have you guys stated that you wanted to put a concession stand at the Carney P brag Park why add another structure that will only add to the pollution problem guys don't know what to do with the trash we already have so you're going to keep keep creating places that's going to keep making more trash why there are a lot of people who inhabit the Carney P brag Park you deduced us all down to violent and drug users drug dealers but I mean I go to that Park I'm college educated my children go to that Park we feed each other in that Park we play chess in that Park how about turn that park into a chess park because that would be more beneficial to the community members not a concession stand to pay for your endeavors y'all chose to fix the BFW you know where you can put your concession stand Main Avenue there's literally a free open space right across the street from Power gas station literally you can put your concession stand there and place tables in chairs where it would be comfortable enough for people to sit there and enjoy your c stand and it's closer to the BFW than the Carney p park Carney p park is inhabited by community members you want to place a concession stand there but why there are community members who use the park we still use the park it's winter we still use it can't wait for the summertime and one question that I would like to ask is why would you guys Place lights on those trees in that Park and never light them up we never got Christmas thank you no we never got lights on those trees don't make a fe sir y'all put lights on those trees and Carney PE bra and you never turn them on thank you for a great holiday we'll move on last year I proposed composting in the city everyone's concerned with you know pollution and racks running around this place what are we going to do to improve it I said composting I started composting on my own it's beautiful because a lot of people are willing to give us their food waste and all we got to do is convert it into compost reutilize it what what are we gonna do pollution wise we have Farm space I told you guys last year too uh I put my own money into the farm space $3,000 I rais money I have people willing monair State University most specifically wants to come and help our city so do you guys want to like come on board because we have fences around the area that we're trying to build and it's a mess someone's G to get hurt besid I'm sorry ma'am that's your five minutes okay thank let me respond to part of of your comments tonight which began with our children versus their children let's get one thing clear if I may man our children is five minutes is up five minutes is up and I'm going to tell you what I mean our children is our children this is a public is up for your five minutes is up our children our your five minutes is up you serious yeah I'm serious your five minutes is up everyone gets five minutes I made that statement from the beginning number one number two to suggest that there are safeguards in one area of the city and not in others for our children that is sp that is spous wrong it leads to conclusions that you're looking to divide not unify it is not helpful you spoke about uh safeguards again in some areas versus other and what you said was very clear because the Us and Them is who the US people who live in in not in third W and the them those that do or vice versa ma'am your time is up ma'am I don't want to have you exited the meeting by the officer but you're leading me to that conclusion because your five minutes is up that's why and it's council president you did not interrupt when in fact no one on this day is interrupted when the individual was speaking I would just ask that this individual give the same courtesy to the governing body as this individual came up and spoke and no one interrupted in terms of obviously Civility and Robert's Rule of orders and the conduct within meetings the expectation is one would come up and speak and no one interrupt we would ask that you allow the council president to express and respond to your comments thank you very much thank you mayor the bottom line is all children are treated the same and pic they come from different places they come from different cultures backgrounds traditions and everything else there is that does not mean anything more than that and to suggest that children are being treated differently is wrong it is incorrect it is is based on nothing except wanting to raise Hellfire between different groups that live in this great City that's clear and that's evident um the city is based upon everyone working together and working together over the past number of years we've seen incredible responses but to suggest that in some areas sidewalks are in bad shape and other areas they're in perfect shape especially around schools is wrong if you want to show us differently we'd love to see it if there is an area of danger to our children which you pointed out there was I would helped you would have called the police department or someone to get the area fixed rather than wait until you came here so that you can make a a note of it in terms of you also mentioned by doing our our plans for a brag Park that it's going to create more trash and make things unpleasant for those people who currently use the park nothing could be further than the truth this is fundamental to all the parks that we have throughout the City by by the way in all Wards not just some but all Wards equally and such to provide for our children and others in the future we welcome your presence here ma'am you are articulate you are bright you are smart you are too bright too articulate and too smart to issue some of these spous comments that you did like to address if I me just for the council council president if I made to address the city council Council presid statements your ination person intends to intimidate any individual or group because of race color religion gender handicap sexual y just literally tried to sit here and diminish anything that I said I am a Community member coming to you asking for help because we need help I'm not coming to you because I have a been data against you because I'm mad at you I don't know you I just have an issue  help and then that's it you guys fting people because they come here and you guys council president if I may to the council I think it's important to get on the record at school number seven there is a traffic light there's a crossing guard there are crosswalks and pedestrian crosswalks they are located at all of our schools um a statement was made in terms of a child that was in an accident the child we were familiar with her mother came to the council chamber and actually thanked us for our expression of concern the police followed up the individual was caught there are certain circumstances certain conditions that no matter what they are you cannot prevent reckless drivers meaning you can put all all of the safety measures up you may still end up with a DUI you may still end up with someone who drives on the sidewalk I share this because many of us personally visited the child that was hit in the hospital we were there with their mother and we addressed it statements were made and I thought the council president articulated well I'm not addressing the individual because they weren't interested or the individual was not interested in an answer other statements were made and I think it's important for the public to hear this statements were made about certain businesses liquor stores smoke shops whatever our governing body isn't here to decide what business is good and what business is bad it's rather what business can legally operate in the city or legally cannot operate in the city I can tell you as mayor I get complaints from individuals in every W because you can find these businesses in every w i get complaints of many different businesses they range from why is there a restaurant on this corner why is there a smoke shop by Vanowen Avenue why is there two liquor stores between Vanowen Avenue and Brook Avenue why are there four liquor stores here because we find these businesses everyone I remind those that would watch online and the recording sessions that this governing body cannot discriminate against a legally operating business if they meet code requirements if they meet state requirements they me local requirements they can operate that's how this governing body trust me if it was up to us individually and subjectively each of us would decide our favorite business and that would be the only one that would operate but that is not how government works in terms of safety measure I can tell you that Monroe Street Third Street Harrison Street Brook Avenue all of these are recent streets that received additional pedestrian walkways additional crossing guards we have expanded safety measures for our children in every world I would argue more in our East Side downtown because it's a more densely populated area if you compare if you juxtapose the resources that we have downtown compared to some of the areas in other wordss you say why do we have so much in that area it's because we have many students there it's not based on anything other than stats but we have crossing guard and safety measures everywhere I just recently received just to give contacts complaint because a utility company is opening up sidewalks all up MAV from Van hen down to Brook to put po not to put any utility company on the spot but if you consider carefully you might get a light bulb light up over your head and that switch might come out and you might know what utility company I'm considering mentioning but I won't shout them out we have work being done all over the city despite certain people's opinions we're not sitting around nefariously planning where there's going to be a sewer line break the governing body doesn't sit around and say we think there should be some Road repair on Harrison Street we think that a pipe should burst on Third Street let's prevent any pipes bursting on Paul we have no control over this if individuals see that something occurs our response is to make sure that the appropriate departments are notified engineering contracted Services if it's an emergency response or fixing I share this because I've had the pleasure of serving with these individuals on this dayas for well over a decade and knew of their work far longer than that and there has been a fair and Equitable approach to servicing every area of our city and when individuals come to a meeting and make allegations and blanket statements stating that there's some disparity between the services or approach baseless allegations and then don't want to listen to An Answer we've been down roads like this before and I share that you can say what you will but the work speaks for itself and this governing body and this Council has supported measures initiatives and programs in every W whether it's a brand new school downtown state-ofthe-art $12 million park down by plaski and dunde record investment at school number 11 with an indoor facility with astro turf racing track at number eight School New parking lots by Brook a and the animal shelter record historic investment in third W Memorial Park or second W park or first W park or fourth W park or all the parks in all of our city I will put up our stats compared to any other municipality in terms of the work that these council members consistently do to make sure that there is fair and Equitable investment and development and assistance for our families and our children and that's not even speaking about the expanded programs for recreation so again I won't address the speaker who stated that the possession stand to go on Main Avenue which I think Brad Park is on Main Avenue in front of the bus stop but I will say this that I will defend the work of this government body in every Ward and for every resident because every council member here fights for everyone in the city thank you mayor thank you very much and thank you for the clarity that you bring to the subject anyone else like to address the council yes sir good evening AR act um I'd like to address the city council um a little bit louder please Mr can you hear me yes I'd like to address the city council regarding um a few things that's going on in the city there are bikers going around our city from Brook Avenue River Drive and Brook AV to Main Avenue and they're doing wheelies and running red lights and dangerously driving on Saturday between 3 and 4 p.m. and I'm sick and tired of it I've spoken to the police department and I've spoken to director um detective Rodriguez about it and um and I'm not sure what to do at this point either um we get something done ban these guys from riding our our city or we do is um we make a lawsuit so that's my that's my what I have for tonight Mr Mack unfortunately the city of pic does not have the legal authority to say that motorcyclists cannot ride on the streets of pic Sir whether they whatever they're dressed like whatever they look like the US Constitution guarantees them the same right as it does to everyone else wheelies if they are doing wheelies and doing dangerous things then we invite you and ask you to please call the police department so they can take Mr Mack we understand your frustration it's our frustration as well because we are caught between a rock in a hard place it is their legal constitutional right to ride on a motorcycle as long as it has all the appropriate and necessary things including a license plate if they are riding without a vehicle without a license plate the police department can impound the vehicle if they are in compliance with the law it's another story there's nothing that we can do we can watch them we can follow however they want they can dress however they want sir that is their constitutional right it is a thin road that we walk if you can instruct Us in something that is legally permissible and will achieve the results that you're looking for we would love to have it and when you're done sharing it with us we'll share it with the other 560 some municipalities in New Jersey because they are all suffering the same fate as is I believe the entire country don't quote me on that in terms of New Jersey you can quote me right so your frustration is our frustration the frustration is based upon their rights uh as individuals and as groups according to the Constitution of the United States and that's not a document that we treat lightly as you can imagine anyone else like to address the council president yes for me I do want to share obviously you're right if individuals are driving legally our police chief has confiscated a number of vehicles at the direction of the council when it was brought up those that are driving illegally the police have stopped they've been able to confiscate some of these vehicles but you are correct because it's a Statewide problem I've been called by my colleagues in other municipalities stating the same thing that there are certain guidelines that prohibit police officers from chasing these vehicles because they have a legal right to ride or they can't chase them out of municipalities what has occurred in the past is our police chief at his Direction has set certain points to make sure that the police are present at times that they expect them to come and inevitably they speak and go to the street where the police are not at we continue to be vigilant but I did want to update the council because I know that the chief shared it with me that we have confiscated a number of vehicles but if they don't break the law you're right legally they can dress any way they want they can drive on the street they're allowed to even though some people don't like the noise the vehicles make so it makes it a a challenge for us to approach it but we are on it when there areas of violation thank you mayor anyone else like to address the council yes sir yes good evening Joe conen 170 Broadway my first question that I have council president is the Irving Place Off Broadway uh cars illegally parked um on the one side of the street it has no parking you got 10 to 20 vehicles at a time that's parked here every day has been reported has been everything and I don't know what to say what could be done with this my next question that I have is 147 149 Broadway the the church put up a a fence now since the church is already just about done um to block it off from the other uh properties so the question I have is you have a front yard with garbage also you have a backyard with garbage so I'm asking if there's any way that somebody can get the owner to clean up his property my next question I have is the the woman that spoke the homeowner that spoke at the last meeting and then the the mayor spoke after um the Broadway with the garbage there's a big problem there because you got store owners you got renters you got a whole mix in in that area and you got garbage that sits out there for days you got bags of of garbage you got uh cases of empty beer bottles you got some pieces of furniture and I don't believe it's the uh GM G GMC's job to clean up because they only got a garbage can and a broom and a shovel so how are you going to pick up a shelving or how you going to pick up a case of bottles in the in the garbage can I don't believe it's their job you got to get after these uh they used to give up uh tickets on these issues so I don't know what ever happened to that my next question that I have is I passed through on the weekend bake Avenue and acri Avenue they starting to work on that building there it used to be a doctor's office they're tearing it down whatever they're doing over there but it's on safety there's no fencing around it there's no kind of safety with that I don't even see permits on the property um maybe get after whoever the contractor is to fence the area off because it's really a hazard um my last question I was on a computer yesterday very interesting that I found they want to pass a law I know youve been talking about it trying to figure out what to do with it the ebikes they will have to be registered with the motor vehicle under proposed law which it's a good thing because if they're if they're driving on a side walk they're driving anywhere you can confiscate them so that's that's a that's a real good thing for this town because they're all over the sidewalk they're everywhere you know I'm surprised nobody got run over but anyway these are my questions tonight thank you sir um a number of the points that you raised all have to do with garbage not at all most if one would when when one sees garbage which is just shouldn't be there right the it's their their day to get rid of garbage is on on Monday sure and no one comes on Monday to pick it up and no one comes on Tuesday to pick it up and it just stays there and gets worse and worse and worse anyone you know call the police or call sanitation and say there's a lot of garbage here can you send someone down not that I know of I'm sorry not that I know of so one that you know would would call the department and say get this why why would they do it they don't care otherwise you wouldn't be there no no that's the point has has anyone that so no one that you know has called the department and say you know there's a lot of garbage here Noe have you no it's not my job I'm not on the payroll that's true you're not on the payroll and that Mr condescending that really sums it all up yeah the fact that you're not on the payroll that's right thank you very much for your comments tonight sir yeah very good good deal anyone else like to address the council seeing new hands is there motion please to close public hearing motion is there a second please motion on second roll call please yes yes yes yes yes thank you we're up to R numeral 7 on our agenda ordinances for second and final reading a hearing is required number one proposed ordinance number 24 33-24 an ordinance amending the designation of restricted parking for disabled persons by New Jersey license plate number introduction first reading was held on January 25 is there a motion please to open public hearing so Move Motion second roll call please yes yes yes yes yes thank you ladies and gentlemen at this time the council will be contemplating proposed ordinance 2433 d24 is there anyone who'd like to address the Council on this item and this item only seeing No Hands Up move the C to public portion there's a motion is there a second please motion and second roll call yes yes yes yes yes yes thank you uh we did invite people to speak on this Weatherly yeah we did so at this point and no one responded so at this point we would ask for a close very good is there a motion please to close to move we closed it already I close it I'm move okay I'm sorry this was on the ordinance move it second Motion in second roll call please on the ordinance Council monk yes counc yes Council yes Council Garcia yes yes yes the motion is passed next please proposed ordinance 24 34-24 an ordinance amending the designation of restricted parking for disabled persons by Li by license plate number introduction first reading was held on February 6 is there a motion please to open public hearing motion and second roll call to open yes yes yes yes yes yes thank you ladies and gentlemen at this time the council will be deliberating on proposed ordinance 24 34-24 um is there anyone who would like to address the Council on this item and this item only seeing no hands I move the codes portion there's a motion to close there is a second roll call to close yes yes yes yes yes yes the ordinance passes no the closing the public hearing closes we want to we're gonna have we want we want to work on the ordinance now right okay is there a motion to move it close public hearing this is to close no this is on the ordinance ordinance only the ordinance sometime we've got to get this done a little bit better huh yes yes yes yes yes yes thank you we got them all done okay we're up to ran numeral eight um about four months ago five months ago uh the mayin his administration proposed to council a change in how we were doing things regarding Towing at that time the council uh agreed with the mayor that this was certainly worth something looking at strongly so um I'm told that uh many many people have reported their uh pleasure at uh the current system uh but nonetheless we wanted to formalize the discussion as president the council's request a number of months ago um and impose on the administration for a report on how Towing is going if there are any pitfalls anything specifically bad things to be replicated for the future an overall uh report Mr Fernandez you were so gracious to accept the request and I know you have nothing else to do except answer the council when it comes to things like this so we appreciate your time on this yes sir so let me begin with your first initial statement uh one of the things that is positive that that has come from the towing ordinance is the amount of individuals now understanding that nobody likes to get towed ever and go get their car and the car disappears but there has been gratitude especially for those that it has happened more than once uh that this current system has really regulated the um fines uh or the fees sorry the fees that are being collected in fact one individual I remember coming forward and there's examples like this on many occasions where they were like I've never seen the fee so low the last time I got towed it was double which is right to the point of why the mayor proposed this uh Towing ordinance in the first place uh one of the things that is also happening that is positive is that we have the ability to go to more than one tour in case of certain situations in fact there was an incident not too long ago where over 15 Vehicles had to be towed all at once uh and where we were able to call multiple Towers to be able to remove those vehicles with a timely uh fashion where in previous uh the previous Towing without the rotation that would have taken significant amount of time as well as expenses so all in all it's working there are growing pains like anything else Logistics that we're working through uh with the police department to make sure that uh things are Equitable for all the towers and specifically and more so for the residents which was the the main reason for this Towing um I can say that the administration's had multiple conversations with the chief and his administration at the police department regarding the towing uh executive orders has gone out to police officers so that they understand the appropriate way to handle the towing rotation and the beauty of it is that the rotation is done through an a system that once the towing has been uh rotation has been randomized it's just a followup of each uh Towing rotation some of the things that we've addressed in our ordinance that were not addressed previously were free toes so if it was something that was requested specifically for our vehicles they they um The Towers cannot charge us so we updated the rotation so there's a second rotation for free Vehicles just so that it's more Equitable and every tower has the ability if they got a free toe that doesn't mean that they're going to lose on the paid toe the next time to keep uh them interested because this is a two-prong approach right you want to help the the residents but also keep the vendors significantly interested so that we can have multiple vendors continue to service the city um so generally that's kind of how it's going um again like I said the hiccups uh are logistically being addressed as any municipality that is doing this for the first time council president also I would add and I think the ba began there to No One surprise we have not received um thank yous for anybody getting tolded still don't not even one but I think something that is important to know we have not seen a drastic increase in the volume of towing or the number of toes meaning that just because the fees have gone down there isn't a message in the city saying I guess you can park wherever you want I think the biggest difference and I do want to share this because just this weekend the chief can attest to this we're not the only municipality who were deal with Towing issues we had one municipality that we're dealing with the tow to person's vehicle that I think is worth less than $3,000 the fee they presented to them was uh $88,000 to get their toe out for towing for towing there's some extenuating circumstances that can add but I wanted to give some perspective there was one resident who got a car stuck in the mud in the municipality right across the bridge from us and the same day it was taken out of there and brought home the towing fee was about cheap or was that about $1,500 when I asked you to reach out to them $1,500 I've spoken to some of our counterparts in other municipalities and they face the same issues they have laws on the books but some of the tours aren't adhering to the laws and when you do not have the option it's hard to hold them accountable other municipalities are looking at the approach that we have taken with the rotation and seeing that that's actually a very productive and uh and successful approach in terms of going if you're going to continue to violate what's in the existing ordinance because as a governing body the council can put ordinance forward but many of our residents that aren't familiar privy they get told $500 so they pay it and then find out later that they weren't supposed to be charged more than 75 or 150 or they getting charged additional fees for the color sweater that the driver of the tow truck was wearing on a Wednesday when it was raining and an ostrich was crossing anyone who saw that cartoon back in the day would know what I'm referring to so I think that we have positive feedback we have stats that show that it's working well in terms of Expediting the process as the business administrator shared it has been extremely beneficial that the police can call multiple tours instead of waiting for one to drop the car off come back drop the car off and come back so we've seen positive uh feedback from the community in terms of the fees and from the police but to say there's no hiccups there are some hiccups we're still trying to make sure that everyone is responding appropriately when someone gets skipped over because they didn't respond because there is a window in which the toll and company has to respond and because it's it's it's set to be objective through a system if you don't respond by a certain time it automatically goes to the next door sometimes our police officers and it's their right may make a judgment call to say look I'm calling someone I have to move this car immediately this is the phone number that I know so we're still working that out to ensure that the system appropriately excuse me forgive me are actual police officers doing that or so I'll give you an example let's say there's an accident that's obstructing traffic and obviously it goes into the system to toll the car but a police officer on the scene makes a judgment call to call a tour I meia say hey can you get here in two minutes and they come and they go obviously just a scenario hypothetical that would go to the chief the chief would make an assessment why is this police officer calling directly why didn't he go through the system was the system down these are all things that we're assessing but as of right now we haven't seen that as a problem I just want to make sure you know we're assessing all of the calls to ensure that they're operating appropriately why foret the second question mayor why would a police officer on his or uh on his or her uh B basement do this why what right white Authority do they have to make this kind of call no this example was more given just to give um perspective on issues so when we first implemented the ordinance their officers they were accustomed to always calling one number so it take there's a learning curve in terms of but aren't they supposed to just call dispatch or or 100% they're supposed to and they have been in occasions where we have seen a disconnect we're addressing it with the chief to ensure that the process is being followed and we see it working well in the beginning of the implementation there were a few hiccups just to ensure that everybody that was being called was going through the system and that the system is objectively choosing through the rotation now it's working pretty smoothly but that's what we're keeping an eye on so I gave you hypothetical in case we see it we would bring that report to the council but that's the only worry of hiccups how about terms of Revenue the city makes revenue from Ching you're shaking your head tickets so you get a ticket and you know re Vue canotes we're making you know profit but that's not the goal it's you get a ticket and then ultimately there's the towing the fees go to the towing company we do not have City Towers so they charge a fee based upon their worker and the ordinances that have been passed that I've set a cap at how much it can be if they're paying the tickets yes that goes to the courts that Revenue comes into the city but there is no gain for us for one tour going above another or a different one there's no incentive for one tour to be chosen above another no of course not um the only other question I would have may is how do we ensure um on a real basis on a human basis I mean what you said about an officer calling a friend of his who's a tour also um how do we ensure that the toes are at the prices that they should be of course and and allow me just clarify I I am no way mean to implying I don't believe I said friend it before the city for about 40 years had one tour so when we first implemented I think in an emergency situation if a police officer called that tour and said hey there's a road issue there was a traffic accident I called the toour directly that gets addressed simply by calling the chief and the chief reminds everyone the council passed his ordinance please submit all to requests to go through this process that was the original hiccups I no way meant imp priv that any police officer would pick preference because of relationship more just because of experience and sometimes you know it's I'm going to call immediately this number I saw a car being told the residents let us know especially when the law was passed and we were fortunate enough that there was enough coverage on it residents know so if they get a $400 fee they come to us I mean many of the council members are aware they come directly to complain but the the stop that they have to go to is the police department in order to get your car out you need a release the process begins with the police department where you go and you show the appropriate identification you have a registration you have insurance you have a license you get a release from the police officer they become our checks and balance the police officers made aware of what Towing yard it's on how much their charged they get told how much their ticket is going to be and if those charges come back to the police that they're not appropriate or lying to what the ordinance was passed we get the information and we can bring it back here and hold that toy company counter by simply saying you're out of the rotation okay I mean listen I mean bad individuals can do bad things and right um but that brings a great Point forgive me this is another hiccup we don't call towing for private Lots so when let's say you know you have melo's grocery store owned in Partnership uh with monks laundry man and they share the that's an idea for you they share the lot I'd rather go to her than than to the grocery to to all right pretty nice anyway so you they call a to company that toor company charges a different fee for private lot or takes it from that lot and each time they take it from the lot that's a private contract they have that contract with it that's not us we have no control we can't force them to rotate we can't force to give a very clear examp shop we can't force shopright to rotate on the tour they're going to use because it's their private property it's their private property right of course yes so those some times individuals get confused and go the city you have this Tower always taking the cars from this lot and like that's not our lot do we have any control mer and this is in terms of the towing ordinance that we passed um is there any way that that we can monitor that my car was parked in shop ride and Shop R towed and they're charging the tow is charging me $500 for what would nor cost $50 there's a limit there the law does provide for limitation cost did it a while ago okay obvious obviously some brilliant people in the council and the administration came up with that that F council president there are no fees for laundry M Max charge for laundry missions which is precisely why I'm going to Mel's grocery store in the first place are there other questions on uh on the Towing report and again our thanks to the administration councilman love yes does um the police have to be involved with private Towing not always right no not always okay it depends on if the private if if the vehicle that's being tow is causing some kind of issue with uh with safety maybe obstructing the entrance to the driveway or maybe they're parked in a way that poses a threat a danger to someone's uh being they can call the cops and the cops can issue a ticket you can't park in a way that that causes danger or concern to Public Safety on private Lots or on public streets so the cops can be involved for that but it's rare but traditionally they don't need to be in my experience I may refer that to the chief chief outside of anything that is creating an issue like someone crashes through the gate of a private property and goes into the lot the cops would be involved because it's an accident or if there's an accident on the private property the cops would be involved outside of that are there any reasons why the cops would be involved for a Towing on private property is correct uh unless there's some type of safety issue the police would not be involved and it would just be strictly private what we get a lot of times councilman is that the police get a call to come to a certain location and the police officer makes an assessment this is a private toll that you need and police does not get involved so private TOS or private toes private TOS with a safety issue could be a police Poli issue a city issue that is a good point they do sometimes call the cops for private lots and find out that's not us but Council Woman made a a good point in in her assessment so if a private say whatever shot right day toe um they're required to have a sign up right of what tow yard so that's how the citizen yeah that's City okay contact information and I do have one more question so let's say someone's blocking my driveway it's priv police would be involved especially since through this Council an ordinance was passed that you can park in front of your own driveway so you would have to call the cops but the cops do not go around just issuing tickets or cards in front of but that's considered unless it's unless it's a call by someone the cops would not just assume that you're illegally parked okay good thank you any other questions on the towing report very good thank you very very much we're up to Communications R numeral n items three through 3 through 14 excuse me are there any questions please on 3 through 14 seeing no lights at this time is there a motion please to accept 3 through 14 so Mo motion and second roll call please yes yesc yes Garcia yesc yes president yes thank you we uh all matters considered to be routine in nature items 16 through 23 it 15 SE thank you uh items just item 15 on items 15 special vote please is there a motion please to accept 15 motion and second roll call on 15 only yes yes yes yes thank you all matter is considered to be routine in nature item 16 through 23 are there any questions please on 16 through 23 Mo it second motion and second roll call please 16 through 23 yes yes yes Council Garcia yes Council yes yes on on 24 please is there a motion mov second second yes abion yes gcia yes yes thank you we're up to resolutions r a numeral 10 on our agenda um on 25 resolution authorizing closed executive session U Jonathan do we need to close session no Mr Fernandez no council president Mr Mayor sir none at this time thank you mayor uh members of the council very good if we could then jump down to item number 26 through 38 26 through 38 are there any questions please councilman mon thank you council president um on resolution 32 awarding contract for Leasing and copier machines the typically we've seen where there's a cost up to a certain amount over here it says approximately whereas the cost of leasing 33 copers is approximately $38,000 we typically see a Max so there is a Max councilman it's not to exceed 68,000 because the resolution says doesn't use the word ex usually it typically says not to exceed it says approximately throughout the whole resolution to 32 32 yeah so the approximate is because of the current usage on the amount am I on the right one yeah that's there's a I know because I did the numbers with Doris we calculated we estimated all the numbers from both copy machines to come up with the not to exceed amount based on our current usage it's an estimate because copy machines also depend on the number of copies that we're printing out um so we put a not to exceed that would cover the historic expenditures on it so I could tell you that not to exceed amount 32 is not to exceed 33 says approximate are we talking about 33 or 32 no 32 says a two mayor it says I see 33 also 32 you look at the next the last paragraph now okay right I didn't catch on 33 also theox usually use not to ex approxim like is there any reason why we changed the terminology of apprx me go to 100,000 also I believe there'd be a legal dispute with that Council in terms of what in terms of the boundaries of approximate the term approxim historically usually said not to exceed correct so what you know any reason I want again you know you know council president you're right if if legally approximately means you can't go more than 10% 5% I don't know if there's any case law what what approximately means 20% you can't go over 20 under the local public housing I mean the local public contracts law the maximum the maximum change order that we can put before the council without going through another process is 20% and usually in these types of uh Services you don't know if there's going to be an overage or not so that's why she put that but I can tell you that we're putting $68,000 based on the current usage and what Omar signed off on was the 68,000 but if there's an overage it has to come back here anyway because of yeah F I'm not trying to no but I understand because it's unlike I understand the question because it's unlike other ordinances where it's very other resolutions where it clearly states I think it's the service that's the issue I think the term approximate gives some small latitude necess necessarily to the administration um and if we're talking approximate being under $100 or $200 or $300 I don't think that that would be particular Germaine given the uh abilities of of the administration I know the executive branch and if it's 500 so good I think that this is a common sense area counil um I I must tell you that if it was you know $5,000 I don't think that anyone would second guess that it was well above right and if it's 5,000 then okay just we we're back here for a different process like they okay okay uh council president item 34 um this is resolution authoriz twin Investments developers to receive 2.5 million in home funds so if we can just for starters understand the process here I see there is a company an outside company that's involved with this called real estate strategy out of Pennsylvania what's the process with this sure and then then I have further question of course I'm sorry coun you said what's the what's the process how this works how does it um who's okaying it and why does why do you need the city council involved with this yes all right and then I have some other further questions to get some better understanding so I'll give you the basic Logistics uh so a development gets approved sometimes it could happen in anticipation of a development getting approved or if a development's approved like in this case they make application to our department the city's Department of Community Development which administers HUD funds right which in this case we're talking about home funds H uh funds that are specifically for the creation of affordable housing the numbers how do we come up with the numbers the there is a maximum this is all presented by Hud that limits the city in the maximum we can give so depending on the type of unit is it a one-bedroom is it a two-bedroom is it a three-bedroom depends on the maximum home allocation limit that they can get for the unit so for example I can tell you right now from just looking at it not too long ago that a two-bedroom maximum is $222,000 for that one two-bedroom unit based on Hud's standards okay and that's how they come up with the numbers so what does our consultant do so this is a HUD consultant that has we've used for many many years the department of developments they look at the projects performa and they look at all the regulations of Hud to make sure that the application conforms with those limitations right whether minimum or maximum to ensure that that project can then be moved forward to the city council for approval of the expenditure of those funds as the city's Community Development Department administers those funds so that's the general uh process okay understood so the the obviously you know looking at looking at a development okay which is costing 3.3 million do to build and when it's finished construction the value is $1.3 million which means on day one it loses $2 million of value so it's called costing 3.3 million to build but the value is only worth 1.3 because values of real estate work with what you're income is Right versus expenses and because they're they're all affordable units which is great okay to add affordable housing and we'll talk about this later as well we are basically we are supplementing 2 million dollar for 12 people to live and it's a 20-year program basically 20 years the the limitations restrictions fall off I assume it goes to Market Market so I I did the math again again I understand we're not here to change the federal programs okay I get it so if you do the math basically we we we plugged in $2 million of something which has no value it's just we're giving it so people so 12 families could live affordably affordable correct that's the key term here yes so if you take if you take the $2 million that's actually 2 2. $2.5 million we're infusing into this thing which has really no value because it's just it loses its value the day you get you co it lost $2 million value $2 and half million divided by 12 families is giving each family $28,000 over the next 20 years you divide that by 20 years is $104 16 don't forget the cost of money which would reduce that further about 20% okay divide this by per month so what are we giving each family technically divides by 12 is $868 okay instead of putting this money into this piece of land we could really give 12 families here's $868 okay and go use this towards your rent every single month the next 20 years councilman if I may for just a moment forgive me please because I think there's a notice that you had shared the money is not coming from the city of pic neither is it coming from the county of pic neither is it coming from the state of New Jersey you are absolutely right it is coming through HUD many of us have some strong disagreements with HUD um and historically the city has had some problems in the area um and we rectified those problems after a lot of hard work and the bottom line is the federal program yes yes and everything he just said is why it's $2.5 million so the only thing that I would say is inconsistent is the no value terminology that you're using okay so it was set up that way by the program yes so that you can put in the money there is value there's a lot of value the Restriction in the value is the income approach because it is limited in its rental it doesn't mean the property has no value that is why you're infusing the 2 million5 however in across this country across this world real estate values are based on income what corre your net operating income of a property is your total income is minus your expenses right that determines your value okay you have the same building the same cost to build these 12 units okay you do the same thing in some highend area and they rent are double that that property is worth double you could sell for double that's what creates based on these based on the income of for 20 years you're basically you're taking something that cost you three and a half million dollar to build 3.3 and when it's only worth 1.3 based on the income so I'm going me going this yeah I'm not here to fix the I'm following I'm following you I just want exp what what's going on here and I'll tell you where I'm leading this conversation okay so basically we're giving every family $833 okay the rents it's in this on this part of this resolution part of this are giving Federal government's giving give like every if we could take that two million2 and half million dollar instead of putting it here we give every family $830 would allow allow right allow $830 per month the next 20 years now if you look at the rents that you're allowing this developer to charge in the schedule here a uh take a two bedroom is allowing is $1600 which means these people can be charged $1,600 for their two bedrooms if you would take that $800 to these people are affordable and they're paying 1,600 out of their own pocket anyway you give them $800 means they could afford for the next 20 years to live in an apartment that's $2,400 which would take a family living as we've heard complaints so people have to live lower income live in areas that are not highend you could put these these same families in a development in a nicer part of town and they could afford $25,000 rents you're making perfect sense and I must tell you I had the pleasure today to have lunch with congressman gimer and I know Mar you I believe the past few days you also met with him I'd be happy to give you his cell number um in order because that's his perview of the federal government but your point is your point is well that we can take these people who not only we give them a better life and put them build are charging two 000 but they won't let us ask for $2 million to give them $800 again so where am I going with all this I'm going all this again maybe it's too late for this year but maybe more proactive I'm willing to get involved okay because it hurts me when I see something like this okay that instead of doing a program like this we're giving $2 and a half million dollars and one other thing this also this development restricts the developer from taking out a loan he can't leverage that is the ABC if you buy but it's also the basis of private Enterprise and the risk that is involved whereas you're mitigating the risk here at that cost if you can leverage this so you don't leverage at 75% you leverage at 50% okay which is very very little RIS right you could build 24 affordable housing units with the same amount of funds and the returns would be higher no it was this this this developer okay if you're looking at his returns know I understand but there's list there's logistical issues that you're missing because of the program I'm not denying your numbers I know you know your numbers that is not the program in fact after this number of units you have additional costs that are associated with the construction of that project by exceeding the number 12 the system purposefully is is set up so that it looks like it has no value but it does have value because we're infusing $2.5 million into that project thirdly and most importantly based on what you just said we did not approach the developer the developer approached us because the numbers work for the developer this original project had a set aside of only two affordable units the only requirement of this project was 10 market rate to Affordable because of the program and however the financing worked for that developer they came in and said I'd like to do a full 100% affordable project and we are very excited about that because as this Council knows and alluding to what council president said originally HUD is always ready to take our money always ready you don't spend it in a year they're asking where'd you spend it I want the money back we just go off and take our money back back part is ready to take their money back their money back their money back but because of people here and they think but the money that we're supposed to use to create affordable housing so the purpose of that is we're a HUD and titlan city for the creation of affordable housing to use their money is it ever does their money ever include this subject has been debated for quite a while now yes and that is home ownership yes is rental when one speaks about the experience of of so many low-income people it's because one of the reasons for the low income is there's no generational wealth being passed on first time home buyer that we have a first-time home buyer now how many people how many people how many people would qualify for that so I have expanded the yes I was just gonna say we've expanded since this so within the city's control and working with the council I think at one time it was up to like 40,000 or 60,000 you can give we lowered it thus providing more opportunities for more individuals to apply So to that extent yes I I mean I would argue and I think that that many people would argue that every dollar that we're spending now on projects like this or they're nice they for 12 people or 14 people or however many it's fine but it does not provide overall what what what is necessary and that is the ability of generational wealth to be accumulated which is councilman Monk's point I think if we had ideally um the opportunity to tell HUD or to ask for the funds to be use how we would want I think giving people the option to use the funds to live where they want with supplemental rent for long periods of time I think we we would definitely love to do that we would love for individuals who are using Section 8 to ultimately end up owning that property but we're restricted by the guidelines that they set for us and then when they give us funds if we don't use them by a certain date for projects they take it back and then it gets allocated somewhere else so can I make a recommendation request yeah I I understand HUD regulations are just through the roof and it's probably something I'll never understand but seems there are companies that do understand it can we invite this company to a council meeting to understand the overview because hopefully we'll get more funds in the future and instead of waiting for a a developer to approach us right oh I have a great project and we're gonna lose the money oh fine so here's $2 and half million if maybe we be po proactive I'm willing to get involved okay be more proactive and try to use those funds and find ways that we could maximize instead of 12 units let's get 24 let's get 36 right and let's see if if we could create some type of joint vengers I personally just I say this because my company we invol we do development as well okay we just finished a development in Texas where we built a project joint venture project with the Housing Authority at 50% we buil 250 units 125 Apartments have to be to people making less than 80% of the annual inome income okay and and and 25% of all our profit every dollar 25% profit 25% of it goes to the Housing Authority so we're infusing millions of dollars whether we sell it or every income every time we take a dollar of profit 25% goes to the Housing Authority so we're not only do we give in this small area Community we create 125 Apartments of low for low income housing we're also giving the Housing Authority hundreds of thousand dollars a year potentially we sell it millions of dollars a year for them to use it to build something else so and not sure we can do that in New Jersey it's obviously needed certain laws in Texas they had that the Housing Authority has different the housing author has a whole set of regulations just for the housing in our say there's such a need and and we're going to talk about other obviously this ordinances coming out by the need of affordable housing we can maybe try to do joint ventures something right and try to maximize these dollars to create these opportunities that's understood that's um that's now just diving a little bit into this one okay I would like to understand I me I did the math of their rents I went online to look at what the okay this they're requiring certain amount of units to be 60% of Ami I don't see how those rents match up to what they're proposing here rent should be a lot cheaper than what they're proposing so that so it and I don't want to keep interrupting if you want to finish all the questions it's just that as you're asking them I can answer them or I can wait why don't you respond Point by Point okay it just makes it easier and in fact in preparation of tonight I have those numbers with me okay any portion that is uh less than 60% Ami that rental is at least $200 less because they're below the income limit and then the rental so the rental limit always has to correlate to the income of the family right based on that income if two of them have to be if two of those units mandatorily because of the HUD tools have to be below the median income and be let's call it low income under their defit or very low income under their they cannot exceed I believe it's like $1,400 be for those rents so for them to get that money and not have to pay that money back HUD would have they would have to comply with Hud's rental requirements which is approximately $1,400 1450 they can't charge more than that they can charge less than that so for example some of the rents that are 80% between 60 to 80% Ami can go up to as high as $1,800 and then those that are 60% and below the maximum is 1452 or something like that so they would have to how many people in the household no no so so the rent is based on um bedrooms the rent is based on bed one so this is a two-bedroom two bed is it 1400 1400 for a two-bedroom I'm doing averages of two bedrooms because that's I think this project most of them are two bedrooms so those are the numbers one bedrooms it's less in fact if you want that number a one-bedroom the max rent for a one-bedroom is 12215 for the low rent so that's 60% the low 60% is uh actually below 30% of Ami is 1215 and then the other one is 1560 for one bet so the 1560 is the Max uh that you can charge and uh if it's a low rental limit which is the 30% it's it's 125 okay that's for one okay the the next point just move yeah the shouldn't it in the resolution be what the restrictions are shouldn't it say in the resolution what there has to be the 60% Ami or the whatever is being proposed should that not be part of the resolution so those numbers change annually no not the dollar month I'm talking about the number of units that have to be below I mean we can add that in there in future ones because there's so what happens is under HUD depending on the number of units a percentage of those units have to be for let's call it they call it lwi income which is below 30% I think the question is should does it are we reiring we're not requ to have it in the resolution to ensure that they're going to meet that because they have to meet bus standards it's part of the money they can't get the money without it yeah but but there's there's EX for instance it says here the sponsor will set aside three home assisted units that'll be rented a Huds low income low home rents right so the balance the balance of the home assistant units will be for for lowincome households under 60% of area medium inome now that might not be it's not a HUD requirement per se that's what that's what is that a HUD requirement yeah once once they there's HUD requirements for a percentage that have to be for very low right that does have to be part of a resolution no it's part of the HUD agreement that is done through HUD andit okay okay fine okay that it is what it is fine the next thing I want to point out here is in the this consultant that was that wrote up what the HUD requirements are it says in here on page no page seven the city is putting extra restrictions in place that will require the developer to repay the home funds should the developer decide at any point during the affordability period to refinance the property I'll read again this is from the consultant to meet I guess HUD I guess it's all HUD regulations the city is putting extra restrictions in place that will require the developer to repay the home funds should the developer decide at any point during the affordability period to finance property our resolution clearly states differently our resolution says whereas to limit the sponsor's ability to realize a cash windfall by taking out a loan against the subject property the city will place the first mortgage lean on the subject property that prohibits financing against the property without repayment of a Tob determined portion of Home funds right next whereas if any time during the affordability period should the sponsor wish to leverage the sub property the city will make determination of the amount of cash sponsor can realize yeah so so that's consistent to me he's no from the consultant it says the city is putting extra restrictions in place that will require the developer to repay the home funds yes should the developer decide our resolution says prohibits of refinancing against the property without of of a to be determined yes there's not what's to determined it's very simple that because HUD requires a pro-rated share the to be determined is we don't know the number until we know what year it is that they're trying to get out of the deal right so if it's a 20-year deed restriction and they have it for 10 years under HUD regulations they need to pay back half of the money I don't know that yet because I don't know when they're going to leave right so that's what to be determined is also the reason for the financing right is also something that needs to be determined like why so the windfall is the issue because the program is set up to reduce the value so that the numbers always stay low well I there's a first there's a there's a total flaw in this in this whole calculation okay and that is because in his whole this consultant he writes how how the city has performed an analysis of internal rate of return to developer and the irr is approximately 15.7% IR return is say you take all the money spent all income along the way and what you could sell the property at the end of the day and you figure out what his return was per year so they're saying that it's 15.7% which is consistent for to give funding because 15% is nothing great when you're developing okay y in the IR calculations and they they have it at the end they're using a valuation of 1.3 again this cost $3.3 million to build the valuation they giv in year 20 is $1.3 million now in year 20 there's no restrictions left right so number changes all the affordability which means the rents here could go up could double y whatever it is so the valuation is not going to be 1.3 the value of this place could be 3 million 4 million 5 Milli more because of the cost of money because of cost of money 100% could I could I interrupt you for a moment I this conversation is extraordinarily interesting what I'm curious about is it is it particularly Germaine and that is are we are we intellectualizing amongst ourselves or the bottom line is the federal government has certain rules and regulations whether they make sense or they don't and if you want to take advantage of their offerings through Huds through home through whoever these are the requirements have a nice day so I I thought is that where I thought about that a lot and and my response is is that we're asked to vote on something and if we're giving a consultant who's cominging up with all his figures I think we have the right to ask this consultant to back up what he wrote of course if something's inconsistent something that's that's no problem with that's all that's all my question really is is we ask to vote on something which means we're supposed to review it and if we see some inconsistencies with the numbers and calculations I think is only due to ask and I'm not expecting any answers tonight right you know but I think I did a pretty good job answering your question right well you want to answer this one about the calculations I didn't do the calculations so I'm gonna have to talk to the vendor who did them because I didn't do those calculations that's really what I'm trying to drive home is the one is is is how this the process and really I'm trying to really bring more light to the fact that based on all these things that we might be able to maximize our dollars to create get more money for these funds in the future that's but understand that if this project were 13 units and they got money for 13 units those prices would be half because railing wage now takes into effect and it would completely change the whole project so I understand what you mean and we want to promote as much affordable housing as possible but scattered throughout and diversifying you know the income levels throughout the town not in one specific project because that's where the issues comes in and then that same exact project you're talking about would not meet the underwriting standards for HUD which is what this consultant is very well known for throughout the state and throughout the country doing this in other states as well to make sure that they comply with the HUD standards to underwrite this amount of money so just to sum up if I may please is that if this fellow is such a professional then we should bring him in it's okay now you know the laws you know how it works you tell us how we can take these dollars okay and instead of doing one 12 unit building let's do three six unit buildings whatever it might be right you know how can we work our way around the funds and and get more dollars out of than just throwing $2 and half million dollars into 12 units which from a from a business it just I mean just it like we said we just give the money to the people let them live you know for $2 and half thousand a month right now again this regulation now there's no way around it there's no way around it I'll turn my mic off there no way around it was done that's it that's you know but I think at least we should be asking the question are there any other ways of doing this I can I can answer that for you okay the answer is yes there are many other ways and we've been doing them all okay we've doing we're doing them right now you need to qualify that answer if there are other ways so with all things being equal so if we go there's a 12 unit um project that can be developed and there's a location that conducive for it and one of the council members says well why can't we do 10 two unit projects and we go where right who are the applicants where are we doing what what locations are conducive for these T yes when you think about it in terms of principle it's great but the the city doesn't get to work in principle often what happens is and I think the business Ministry sh we don't want the concentration of affordable housing all in one area in large numbers that hasn't been successful historically for communities like ours and concentrating poverty or individuals in need all in one location so when we want to scatter it around appropriately we consider land that's available how much development would have the least amount of impact on the area of footprint and what we can get approved by Hud so we don't lose the funding they give us ideally we would love for them to give us the money and let us decide what to do with it but they give us guidelines and if we tell them look we want to do four projects of 20 units each affordable and we go where where do we have the land the location the property that we're going to do these four units so in this particular property this 12 development makes sense it fit the guidelines for HUD and we can say look we're we're using your money the money you give us we're using it in a timely fashion and then we apply for more money I think these exercises which are extremely beneficial and you're right if they are contradictions we should definitely speak about them but we cannot govern in what is theoretically possible or in principle we must look at what's what's viable in terms of the project I think you're aware of this and I think it's extremely important that we take these numbers at Value unless we genuinely believe that there's something off that would keep us from being responsible and have hard come to us and say you're misusing or mismanaging the money I don't know if that was in line of what you were um along the same lines and just to close that statement is they're audited Our Community Development Department and each project is audited and the files are pulled out and the underwriting before it even comes here that whole package that you're just looking at goes to HUD I don't know if you know that HUD gets this package they okay it before it even comes here for a resolution to pass so this was all these numbers were reviewed by Hud who is gonna ultimately audit the project uh when they come into the city so I just want you to be aware of that and the mayor is correct right so that's why we're doing when I said yes we're there is it's because it could be three projects at six if they're available the whole caveat here is where are the projects right now this is the projects staring it in the face we don't have three different projects or three different developers are coming in for six units right okay I I would just maybe ask for one change in the resolution if that's okay um whereas if at any time during the affordability period should the sponsor wish to leverage the subject property the resolution right now says the city will make the determination it's not the city what I'm hearing HUD based on Hud's Huds it's not the city who makes a determination it's HUD that makes a determination it's we administer the funds so I would with your I would urge against that because we're the administrator of the funds as the Community Development Department is the the keeper of it and they audit that department and want it to come back here if there's an issue so but the city's determination should be based on Hud's requir well that's automatic anyways that's automatic okay because I guarantee you the one thing we don't want to do is give HUD back any money in fact the mayor's direction is like every penny stays here don't give a single penny back not question and we wanted to come through the I just again I'm just question if there's any other way and maybe there isn't but I think so much money we're talking about here maybe it's worth all just going through the exercise and again if this fellow is so big he's doing other states he'll know what other cities are doing right if no one else figure it out we don't you know we're not gonna figure out we're not gonna be but maybe other cities have figured it out he can just share with us what other cities have have done to maximize the dollars councilman do you have an objection including 34 on today's agenda I do not but I I would ask is how do we make contact with this company is this Mr Fernandez of the council can you make such inquiries his question or Mon's question do we have a relationship the answer is yes they're our vendor they're are Consultants we consult with them on every single project and now council president thank you mayor because I was gonna say I was answering councilman Monk's question should we invite him to have a presentation for the council for general questions or done priv you know I councilman I I think that we've entertained in the past or uh uh Mr Lurch done with a number of people I think that if okay you I just don't know how meable they are to do these things so because the breath of Hud's regulations is so broad I would ask if the council had specific questions that reach can we explore if it's possible to bring them in if there are any issues we'll make sure that the council is aware we understand that there are certain sensitivities and we need to make sure that we approach this ethically right out and say is it okay for them to come and ask certain questions are there concerns of what questions are going to be asked right because I would hate for them to say I'll get back to you versus answering the question right then and there so oh okay that's a good point if there are specific questions that the councils would have so we can tell them to come prepare with their answ right it's very it's a it's voluminous I mean that's why they right like I don't that's special yeah I got again the answer there's no other do get it you know that's you know the answer is yes we can reach out just ask council president through you that if there are certain questions if there's an expectation of what they can come with knowledge of so they can to respond are there any other questions on 26 through 38 Council Mark your light sorry hearing none is there a motion please to accept items 26 through 38 move second motion and second roll call please yes coun love yes counc yes counc Garcia yesc yes thank you uh why don't we take about a 10-minute break here and go into 39 at that time yes yes yes yes yes thank you we are up to Roman numeral 11 ordinances for introduction in first reading number 39 proposed ordinance 3177 zoning article three definitions and word usage section 37-10 definitions article six conditional uses section 37-16 all zones and art article F article four excuse me schedule of regulations Section 317 to 11 adoption of schedule of the city of to to permit accessory dwelling units in all zoning districts ordinance for second and final reading to be scheduled for the March 19 2024 meeting on 39 Mr Fernandez can you help us understand 39 please yes council president as has been the topic this evening regarding about affordable housing especially discussing uh all everything we just discussed on the previous resolution what this does is um allows for accessory dwelling units in a one or two family house basically if previously these accessory dwelling units were called granny Flats in-law suites mother daughters they changed the term to be more politically correct but I want to say what it was so that it may pique somebody's memory of what these units are supposed to be um the main focus of these units is for an an owner driven ability to provide an accessory unit for those that income qualify the reason they're called granny suets or inma suedes or mother daughters is because the main goal of this is twofold one to agent place right so as you get older and over 60% of our current population under the last census is over the age of 55 hey so I'm sorry could you repeat that please over 60% of our current population is over the age of 55 under this last census okay thank you yeah our our median age for the city of Pake as a whole is 30 years of age but 60% of the census is 55 and older which means we have an aging population also we for this uh we did a study and over approximately 18% approximately 18% of our population is between the ages of 15 and 24 which is the second prong of an accessory dwelling unit which is for the access to the daughter part of the mother daughter right I just explained the mother part I'll explain the daughter part uh or father son however you want to exppress it or father daughter any mix you'd like what this allows is and the mayor and this Council and we've heard it millions of time we want you to have a place to come back to you are now have a mountain of debt and are just starting off at an entrylevel job and need a place to stay this also accommodates for that again this is income restricted there is a deed restriction uh it maximizes the number of units to two uh On Any Given property so you can have above a garage in a habitable basement because there's uh code requirements or a habitable attic uh where you're permitted to have these accessory dwelling units this is been a very popular um kind of ordinance that has been passed in many surrounding municipalities of all types we did research on all different types Urban Suburban Rural and you'd be surprised of how many different municipalities have this same ordinance in place and the idea is to expand the opportunities for homeowners it also allows for those homeowners that may be struggling that has been exas mated through the pandemic to have additional sources of income to pay their mortgage to get their expenses within 30% of their income which is what under affordable housing is defined as 30% not more than 30% of your income on household expenses uh and as an aside it allows for these properties to be built adequately and correctly to code as well as provide additional um rentable income which translates to um additional value to the home and additional taxable value for the municipality so all in all this covers many different aspects um of the renter the owner and the municipal tax base that's it in a nutshell um I can go into many more specifics and numbers if we could uh just so the council knows in the last census 22% of our total population is below the poverty line so addressing affordable housing within the municipality is something that uh we've been looking at based on a uh calculation that we conducted based on our total our total population the total percentage of our population under the poverty line the average household size and the number of currently existing affordable housing inventory when you extrapolate that number it shows that the this municipality would be looking at a shortfall roughly of about a thousand units of affordable housing based on that formula and that's why that's this is before you based on that formula does is there any municipality in the state of New Jersey which meets requirements say that again if that's a question AC every municipality is attempting to the best housing expectations but I think sing one that they all the requ I think reason expectation so but we have a constitutional obligation in the state of New Jersey to make a realistic opportunity to create a realistic opportunity to address affordable housing needs so I think a good to put it in perspective to say l .2% land so adhering to the Adaptive use component more cost effective option to homeowners will provide additional housing on existing structures we don't have a lot of options in the sa like ours to build huge portable housing project as long as the council heard me I think I'm start start over appreciate but I think that that that what you're saying makes a lot of sense that municipalities around the state are struggling to try to meet what the expectations are and do their best to meet at least the minimum requirement and this is in regard to attics basement sellers garages so sellers would not be allowed there's a difference and I think there's certain restrictions that deal with the height of the ceiling and the height from the ground level but but this would restrict two at most I mean you can't have an attic over garage and your basement right and there's a minimum standard and a maximum standard so you can have a very small substandard efficiency of a 100 square feet which is barely a bedroom no they need a minimum of 300 square feet to even uh be able to be considered and it can't be more than three bedrooms also one thing to knowe it it it would allow not more than it would allow uh kitchens of course it'd be a unit yeah it'd be an accessory dwelling unit and under the law it has to have a kitchen like you can't not have a kitchen it has to have a kitchen and it has to have bathroom facilities how about egress separate it has to meet ESS as a separate unit so it has to go through inspection code everything I think as a business administrator described that these used to be referred to as family units it's intended and often historically used where let's say Someone's Child I call them more parent child um accessory dwelling units let's say your child graduated just got married they can live in the attic legal they can live over the garage I call it the growing pains approach when we used to see that show and Mike sa lived over the garage over the family house for those who used to watch that show or your grandmother staying with you or your mother-in-law is going to stay with you it's intended to provide an opportunity for the one and two family homes to uh to have that that option if they need all of the requirements in terms of cod and appropriate living space and to add to that this is not a just as of right this is a conditionally use this is a conditional use so it's only approved if they meet all the conditions do they need to go before the zoning board if they do not so under the municipal land use the state of New Jersey if they do not meet the code they are required by law to go to the zoning board for What's called the D3 three conditional use variants anything that starts with a D in the state of New Jersey has a higher stringent approval process and quality um proofs that are required before you get them that is why this was specifically done as a conditional use so all these conditions have to be met if not they do not qualify for the unit they'd have to go to a zoning board if you have a legal attic already you have a legal basement appropriate ceiling space from ground level you'd simply have to come in in order to make sure that you're doing everything additional or any additions that you made in order to allow them to use it and it must be affordable do we have any impact statements do we have any reviews that were done in terms of traffic and parking and schools yes yes so specifically for this accessory dwelling units the you can't eliminate any of the parking to create the unit that's one of the conditions secondly when we conducted our study for the areas that where most so I don't know if the council knows over a third of our municipality over one square mile is R1 and R2 zones so more than 30% of our municipality is single family and two family when we did our study just so you know and I said that just so you know the level of study we did did um the grand majority of those properties approximately um 88 to 90% of them had driveways in driveways in which multiple cars fit on the driveways when we did that for accommodating the parking uh for the the current use and any additional use because we limited the amount of units that can go on there but bottom line if the new unit is is erected purchased whatever the bottom line is the people are going to who live there are no doubt going to have vehicles who lives thereor so it depends who lives there I mean obviously any scenario or any hypothetical you can attach stats to but if it's your children who going to live there they were living in the home anyway and they had the car there and they had the car anyway this would just provide them the opportunity to live upstairs in a unit if it was your mother-in-law that was going to stay with you whether she's going to stay in a guest room or stay in the Attic so it really depends on the property owner whether the property owner is intending to have individuals within their families use it or otherwise we don't have an expectation as this has been done in other municipalities when we consider how it's work there to see a huge impact at least an adverse effect and if you're looking at statistics specific statistics on parking our centus data under our community for rental properties for rentals over almost 40% have no cars of rental units based on the Census Data so you extrapolate that you're looking at I think what was the number mayor 60 or 65% have one car or less of the rental population the stats don't show that that would be a major concern can we can we see the stats please the back up all these numbers yeah I mean if you say a little bit longer please even 40% do not have cars but 60% do have cars yes but then poate one car or less yeah but let me a couple things I mean this the the thought that because the driveway if you're renting an apartment your addict to someone he's not parking in your driveway we know that he's parking on the street fact you know you're not GNA wake your tenant up at 6: in the morning you know can move your car the second thing is the if my child is living there I'm doing it for my child and I keep hearing about your child why would I create a unit in my attic to put my childh in there and have the tax assessor come and I move my taxes from 15,000 to 20,000 so that I could charge my child rent and have expenses if he moves out in two years I have those taxes for the next 30 years if so this thing about this mother daughter or the child moving in why would I put more expenses long term on my home guaranteed even if my child decides to move out in 12 months I don't have no one else to move in and why would I do that if I me if if all those numbers and all those years in that or to work out exactly the way you you pose it I would wonder as well but if I would to tell you if your child wants a level of autonomy and privacy Independence adult child and Independence and you bring in additional revenue and they get to stay at home as opposed to going into debt to buy a home or moving out somewhere else they go I'm going to stay here I'm I'm gonna live at home with my family but yet still feel independent that additional Revenue may help to pay the mortgage or to pay taxes and they stay for 10 years so I think anyone can come up with any scenario so no if I have two children one became a lawyer okay and one unfortunately a lawyer you know so he's whatever he's making something these other ones just unfortunately didn't make it right and they just became I told them the lawyer made it so the lawyer sorry you cannot live in my attic because you are you do not meet these qualifications of Ami of a whatever the percentage is am I you could live in my house and you can't live in my house or that's what we're creating now I could pick I'm restricted which my children could live in my house that would that would be correct however I think you may miss a point that no one is compelled to do this right so in your case you would go well I'm not going to do the atct because I don't want to do it see this provides an opportunity and our approach has been rather than compelled to incentivize if it works for you if you go both of my kids have become lawyers so I don't want to do this and I'm not going to create the issue with my kids or want became a lawyer I don't want to if I want to do it if I would like to have my mother-in-law if here I've to date never heard a husband let's deal with realistic circumstances but whatever scenario one comes up with obviously the idea is what's what's the spirit of the goal so I think that's the same question that we've asked with other ordinances what are we trying to accomplish I think what we're trying to accomplish is we understand that there's a a swelling an outcry for affordable housing in fact it was just mentioned in fact one of the speakers began with rents are too high we need affordable housing some of the statements that the council members made we need affordable housing how do pragmatically approach this lead which is obvious around the state in a way that could be Equitable and give Property Owners the choice what do you want to do how do you want to play this out and if an owner of a home goes I I would like to rent my addict to my daughter-in-law and my son and let them pay5 or $600 a month they're just starting out even if they just became a lawyer very few lawyers make any real money for the first few years while they're out and they're trying to pay the bills and you go I want you to live here at home and have some Independents that's the idea of it now can any scenario be made mayor what if every house has the money to build and I would propose if they did they would have built out their house a long time ago we don't get large numbers of applications to say I want to expand my home I I want to build up my home I want take my one family and turn it into a 1.5 million we we don't get a hundred of those applications we don't have a realistic expectation that we do this and a thousand homes are going to come and do it what will happen is those that can and wish to do it will be able to do it in our city we've seen it recently passed in Monclair it's passed in other municipalities there's been a lot of positive feedback and we said this would be creative and practical way for us to approach a need of affordable housing that would at least take our city a little further along into what we're trying to accomplish by creating affordable housing everywhere okay how are tax is assessed now if I have one family home two family home right let say my home is assessed for $10,000 right okay tax $10,000 if my house was 20% bigger okay let's called be $122,000 yes right so if I add a basement or whatever it might be whatever it might be this this unit here right so now I'm adding on okay another 10% of of my property right and so I'm going to get reassessment reassess the taxes right but is the tax assessor going to take into account the fact that that this 300 squ feet call it I can't get $2 and half doar a square foot of rent I can only get a dollar and a half because it's restricted to someone meeting the Ami requirements yes is a tax assessor going to take that into accounts yes and they do already your assessment will be less because your income will be less on this on that 300q foot addition right we call it the added assessment of your property and it takes into account the type of construction so if you really really love your kid and you have marble floors and granite counters and really expensive stuff that's taken into account versus for M right and and and the rental income of it it's it's and in fact you said it yourself when we had the conversation before they look at the fact that the value is less because it's income restricted and that's the same that across the board for any affordable unit that is created not just here but in the state of New Jersey okay so if it is based on income then should it's it's irrelevant if I put marble floors down yes it's irrelevant it should be irrelevant because I can put down gold but my bottom line is it's the value is based on income and if I'm restricted I could build a beautiful thing and I cannot get it taxed have be taxed within a certain amount of Bas based on the income I think you said do they take that into account they do take it into yes not whether you can't be taxed no they'll take the tax but it shouldn't make a difference this part of my home now should make should not be any different how however I build it with the mark with the gold and who knows what because it's income restricted so I'm I'm I'm smiling I'm smiling because the mayor has proposed on multiple occasions a law about restricting improvements to a home that does not I'm gonna yes to the state representatives who this is based on the New Jersey state law on taxation right which is different on how we calculate so what I can promise you is that we're going to follow every single requirement for taxation on the property and income restriction is a basis in in which they calculate your assessment so if it's income restricted it will definitely affect your assessment councilwoman mon yes yes I think it's a great idea and I just wanted to bring um M councilwoman monk to reality your kids I'm G let them in anyway you're gonna let them in and then you know what's gonna happen when they move out the grandkids are going to move in and by the way all right Council the reason why it says here that dwelling may not be situated within a cell because they're worried about the Mother-in-law com some in love pleas no I just wanted to say the same thing uh basically uh the key term in the mayor has has articulated in in a lot of different ways is choice right um some some people may not want to make that choice to um have their house reassess or t and then some may be those individuals who went off the college and saw their mother and father's um walk to work in some cases and factories and they they feel like the mayor said they want a little privacy but they want to stay there to help um their parents and I just think it's a great incentive because rather than those individuals saying okay I want privacy and now I'm gonna move down the street or next door and pay double of what they're gonna pay being in an attic are going to stay there and supplement that mortgage for for their parents Andor help out with with the utilities the water the electric and everything and and somewhat be kind of co-owners of the dwelling I think it's an excellent incentive incentive rather and I think it's going to be something that's going to also keep those individuals who we who parents struggle to send the Ruckers and and keen and everything in our city and and keep those professionals here so I I I really like I spoke with the mayor uh I think this is one of those ordinances that eventually once all the Kinks are worked out we're gonna be very proud of it um for so many reasons because one we're gonna keep before now what they their choices are either we sell and move out right so that we can get a bigger place for us um because that room that I grew up in since I was in in kindergarten is just too small right now for my spouse and my child so I I think that um that choice is the key um it might not work for you counil mon but it may work for for several of our other syst is if I could just ask in the not to you if you don't mind density spoke about it before we have a limited number of parks we have a limited number of everything right we've got two square miles that we can build and one plus square miles that's Parkland and and nonprofit this I mean I just we're one of the most densely populated cities in the United States shouldn't we be looking for Less density are they going to be what kind of service provision is going to be made here we're going to need more ambulances police cars more police and who's paying for that so that argument can be made with all development that occurs why are we making development are we adding to density now we look at historically in the city where we've had I would say an increase of development over the past 10 years we have not seen a drastic rise in the number of our population from 2010 69,800 2020 70,000 we have not seen a drastic rise in FA that those statistics but they're what we have so if if we're gonna say but we can go to the school the school five years ago 15,000 students today 12,000 students barely we're not seeing an increase in the population we're not seeing that this development is resulting in more individuals here we're actually seeing the numbers stay flat steady and in the schools honestly there's been a drop so that that hasn't been a major concern we would also argue that in areas where you're going to have a lot of one family or two family homes are not our most densely populated areas they're not a major concern in terms of dense population so it provides an opportunity for the homeowner to choose who's going to have access to these accessory dwelling units we we would argue that if these individuals and ideally that would be the case it would be within the family that they're already there I can make an argument for why your college kid actually benefits from showing that they pay rent in your for college for financial aid rather than say I just live at home my parents many young adults when they're first starting off in their career benefit from having rent because it lowers how much they have to pay for tuition so especially for commuters when we weigh the benefits and are there going to be certain cases where individuals may say hey I want to rent to someone new but we have not seen that be the case in our city and we don't have a huge expectation because if you already don't have a legal addict and you need to make the modifications it has to make sense for you the investment has to make sense and if you're going to be limited how much you're going to rent if it's not family first of all I would say people who have one family homes and two family homes they're very careful as to who they let in yeah you don't want strangers this isn't a building where you're just renting out to whoever but when you but when you sell yeah can you sell two separate entities uh so if I may add there is a restriction yeah you can in this ordinance that requires a d restriction for that purpose so whoever comes in is held to the same exact standard that the seller did for the deed the term of the deed restriction yeah you can't sell the attic separate from the home no it's an apartment it's an accessory remember it's an accessory to the principal structure that's it's called an accessory dwelling unit and there's a deed restriction to maintain that unit affordability for the affordability period councilman monk sorry to have interrupted you before why I understand the need and I get the concept of it may we spoke earlier about it but the need is that's not why are we why are we restricting only to 10 year look we have another project that we just approv 20 years right 10 years is not a long time right and and if you know if we're short a th000 units is a shortfall in the city of a th000 units and we only have 1.3% of empty land right to reuse we're not have find any easy fixes for affordable housing so why would we have this restriction after 10 years it just falls off why would we make this a 20 year that's a great question we're trying to line it up with existing guidelines that we have home repair firsttime home buyer but if this Council wants to make it longer we're open to that if if you want to say we want it to be affordable 20 years I mean so if if the reason why we're doing it you know is for the affordability I heard a lot a lot of discussion about child moving back and so on so forth which again but that seems I he two different it seems the the more the intent of this where it all started was from affordability yes that's what it started from so if that's our Focus why wouldn't we it 20 years we agree again the response the retort that I gave before was specific when we do home repair first-time home buyer right restrictions about 10 years so we just lined it up because that's what we've done before we wanted to be consistent so in case anyone asks where you get the number from we go this is the number we always use what we're free to say 15 years 20 years 30 years the goal remains now in terms of I I don't know if anybody expects their children to stay 10 years or children goal is not the children the goal is to have there affordability for people who are on the street who have nowhere to go there's none of housing that's what I said we can extend it for as long as you want if this Council wants to do 20 years we'll go yeah 20 years if you want do 30 if you want to say for the life of R life you see you see HUD does 20 years you see there's something so it's all based on dollar amounts that's where the numbers came from they're all based on dollar amounts and estimated cost for the repairs and the higher the more money you get like this $2.5 million the ma you get the maximum restriction which is the 20 years that's where the mayor is talking about we took it based on our current standards that HUD allows us under our current programs so that you saw the consistency and we weren't making it up now like the mayor said and agreed with right mayor if you want to make it 20 years make it 20 years we're not against that would actually be more beneficial right that's what we're trying to do right it's about affordability and to have the housing stock not to have this problem six seven years all of a sudden now you know now now all these people are renting it out for three times the amount and all of a sudden let's assume you get 200 apartments for this okay now 10 years you're gonna lose 200 units of affordability right and whoever did it did it no assuming no one else is do those they would have done it already maybe maybe maybe not whatever it is but okay I'm just uh I think that's a great point and we would definitely be open to extend the the other question I have is um in number item number nine it says tenants for each accessory unit cannot exceed the maximum income limits as established annually by the US Department of Housing which maximum income units limits there are different levels there's the moderate there's a low income there's a very very very low income which what limits they have to so match up here remember we have maximums and minimums right so really is dependent there's no requirement that you have to have a very low unit right especially especially if you're not getting any money and you're doing this on your own and you're not taking any HUD money so if you yourself as a homeowner say I want to do a low income which is the let's just say it's two bed just because I know the numbers off the top of my head and you're going to say I want it to to be for very low then that's your restriction that you're going to put in your deed because that's what you want to do right now the accommodation of this ordinance it can be for moderate income and that is the requirement right it's it's it's considered well it's the 80% and less so this ordinance is anybody from 80% of median income and below so you can choose as a homeowner that's why we're trying the mayor was trying to say about flexibility you as the homeowner have that in high range so let's say your child now starts getting more money you don't have to kick them out because now they're over the 50% threshold right do you get what I'm saying so affordable in the state of New Jersey is 80% of Ami and below so this ordinance is 80% of Ami and below if they fall under the 30% Ami you can charge the lower rents in fact for you to qualify as an affordable unit under HUD it can't be more than 30% of expenses on on household expenses of your income so if your child is at the number is that pre-tax or after tax what do you mean that that percentage that uh so it's it's um you know what that's a good question I knew the answer in it escapes me right now but I can get you that answer um I think it's take-home net I think it's net I think it's net not gross if memory serves me correctly I think it's net but I will confirm um 30% of income and that puts them under that limit then in this case under our scenario that child cannot and or renter can't be charged more than the $1,400 for a two-bedroom if they can afford it based on on the 60% to 80% then the number can go as high as 1,800 based on HUD numbers what we don't want to do is have this Council or this Administration unilaterally start picking rent numbers that's why we use Hud's guidelines as an affordability period so that there's a standard that is followed annually and investigated annually and produced to us annually that is used Nationwide so that there's no confusion and no one can say want this to be that or that to be this could could I suas could I add on to my attic um and then sub that's mean addon so do an accessory drawing unit do an accessory raise the height or what do you make it make it livable yes you if you if you can make your house livable now so outside of this ordinance if I want to invest to make my house I put in a permit if I meet all requirements then it would get assessed and then you like if I want to build out my house and make the seller into a basement and ensure that 50% is above ground and there's an entrance and an exit and I have the money to do that I do not believe legally we can restrict you from being able to make improvements on your home so I'm trying to understand the question could could you improve upon your home and then make an air that previously was not um allowed to fall into this ordinance now fall into this ordinance is that the question I believe you can do that right now if you wanted to if I have money and I get approval I can I can build out my house as long as I believe it reads here no accessory structure may be built on any lot in which there is no principal building structure and accessory structure should not exceed the maximum height permitted in the zone for one or two family homes the existing restrictions you have to meet but if you have the money to expand upon your home just like I can expand on my two family or one family home right now I can make it bigger I can larer do whatever I want if I want to pay the taxes for it I can add all the square footage and go as high as the limits allow in the city like lot coverage doesn't change it have to also do within right so it's a conditional use P please I a lot covered other words if building can't cover more than 25% right it doesn't change remember you have to meet within the guidelines that already e it's an accessory let's antic I remember years ago we passed the law that to even put bedrooms in attic your your the your steps going up to your attic has to be a certain width yeah that's all a code so so another thing is if you're using your attic there has to be I think to have a apart in the Attic right you have to have an eress to the attic that does not go through correct M that's correct they have to have an exterior staircase so to have or it can be a ladder right all the codes ladder has to be allowed right is that what you said ladder ladder oh yeah no so usually it's a staircase within the house so usually what happens is usually typically in the as someone who's inspected many of these homes typically what Happ happens is you have a hallway that they block off with a door to separate the second unit and the attic unit so that they can walk without going into the second unit that's typically what happens but again it has to meet the width requirements of the code it has to meet all fire egress standards uh and what has happened is a secondary means of egress sometimes is required they've had a roll down a roll down ladder I've seen that's separate that's what the council president is trying to get but that's not the primary means of equals so you're all correct they have to meet the standards of the Zone I have one comment and um not that I'm restrict myself in any other comments why get it appreciate it and everything and I know there's unlikely scenarios there technically under the scenario if you have of a block that has 10 homes let's say right right now there are 10 families based on this right each one of these homes can put something in the Attic put something in the basement now 30 homes on this block okay you go from 10 cars to 30 cars again I'm giving you a crazy it's not gonna happen I get why don't we start off where allowing only one accessor unit for dwelling why are we going right away to two understood I think that's a great question me to State this I believe that it is the responsibility of government to consider hyper and the worst case scenarios so I think it is important that we share what if we ended up in 30 cars what if we ended up with 30 houses so I wanted to prefence my statement are lead with that I think those are fair and and appropriate um considerations in debate why two units why did we choose that because of the need because we don't believe and we have no reason to believe that we're going to get flooded with a bunch of applications so we want to maximize the opportunities for those who can um I I think we spoke about earlier generational wealth for me how do we create that how do we provide people with genuine opportunities to have value to their home to keep their families in their home told homes we have families in Pake that own homes in in word alone the banks on their home they're struggling to pay that mortgage and they know that at any moment if they don't pay that it can be taken away what you call your home is really yours until you pay it off if you don't pay your taxes for two years trade you can lose your home so we were trying to think if we're looking to help to create affordability while at the same time thing some kind of benefit to the homeowner to those who struggle two units May sense we know you could potentially have three you could have up to three if all I guess factors work out if you have a base one that's 50% above ground if you have a garage if you have an attic so we said look why don't we start with two that was the approach start with two if it works out and people really like it then the council could always say all right why not three but we felt one may have been a little less than what we were hoping to accomplish for the individuals or maybe people like you they have one son who started off at a lawyer and the other he's not making much money and the other one you you to the garage you to the be serious we just thought it would have the most benefit yeah I I keep I thought really the gist of this was affordable housing it is but addition now the benefits of looking to help people because can't afford their homes then why are we strictly just affordable because so one one doesn't neate the other if we were to say you know we want to create a park for for recreation for kids and also a benefits adults and also it's gonna help with flooding their additional benefits but we have to look at the flip side is that and this could happen yeah take any home in any area of the city where you have a single family home okay your home okay I know how I would feel if the person to the right of me puts apartment in the Attic puts apartment in the basement the person the left of me puts an apartment in the Attic a p now I have six families on the side of me instead of two okay I can hear if you go from one family they go to two on okay there's another another car there ever might be I know want one more on my side so instead of having a one family next to me I now have a two family I get it but we're open this wide open that now the person to meet next to me is three and now all of a sudden I have six families next to me all right and if I live on a block we parking is restriction we we know most blocks have that issue now so theum of the six of the I added out two in each side instead of those four only three of them have cars you know what three cars do it does to a block so I think going I think we could accomplish we're trying to accomplish and we could go just a little slower by by doing one unit and it won't affect I say we want to help the people to the right side of council woman their expenses so so forth what does it do for the person who's not doing it right in terms of their quality of life and the values of their home and what the values of what we're doing to to to their life if if I could respond and say way that that you did earlier so if if the goal is affordability then we want to maximize the opportunity and have more rather than less if that's a goal idea is affordability if if the idea is that we want to extend affordability for longer periods of time we go 20% makes sense but again if if the goal is or 20% 20 years 20 years if the ideas were we could use a th more affordable units and this gets us closer to so two two accessory dring units meets us closer to the goal if you say let's start with one let's start with one and then assessive when to see if it has an impact I see I think of I think to set our goal of trying to add a thousand units and backing into it is maybe I'm not I don't know if I that approach is a help the approach because we're not looking maybe we should be looking more at what people currently have in their home right and then what they invested in their home right they invested everything you have someone who finally paid off 90% of the mortgage they're almost there and all of a sudden I have six families next to me what are do to my values right so I think maybe we need to say yes we need to add a affordable right are we get a thousand neighborhood 100 200 whatever is we have to go down that road to be creative 50 whatever whatever the number is and the likelihood is that there'll be very few probably they will do the two okay and the fact will be very we agree there'll be very few why even open up to the possibility of the councilwoman having six families surrounded by her if the number anyway is likely but it opens a possibility that it could happen so the argument if I'm here an incorrect I'm not argu just I know what ites but I'm not I'm not stating that we're we're arguing that in that form I mean the I guess your position if I understand be why allow the one family the potential of the two units considering the impact on the neighbor I don't want you to have two additional units can have an impact on me and I think that that's a legitimate consideration so I think that if the council is open to moving for one accessory unit to begin with you choose which one it's going to be could be the at can be the garage the basement we're receptive to that because right now we would go from zero to one that's something I think the spirit again in the motive and I I genuinely believe this anyone's watching and I think we're all in agreement that we want aordable but we also understand that we have to live with the consequences of making decisions and if it adversely impacts and if it's harder for us walk back initiatives than it is to move forward if we start soon so I think it's it's a wise approach iide the young one to because I was I was in state with our council president his other and I'm in agreement with you so now I'm just speaking hope not bro just want to give a little bit anecdotal um perspective when we kept hearing the testimonies and the outes for affordable and I've heard from this Council over and over from everyone in this Council we need more for so two is just that it's thinking we can get more so we figured instead of three let's go for two I don't think there's anything wrong with one we're starting with one with perhaps the idea that we look at it or perhaps those that come after us 10 years from now may look at it and say you know what it did not have an adverse impact on the community let's move at two I think that's wiser more responsible I would ideally want to but I definitely understand why one this Council if it agreed to one would be a better approach consider we don't know the we don't know 100 cars on a block or zero cars on a block but one at least say we did something and uh we have something to look at so yes are there any budgetary considerations that need to be taken for the city yeah I've always been told and in fact it's not been told it's recognized that housing costs money it doesn't make money in terms of Revenue generation if we're proceeding with something like this and adding more people to the city um do we need to hire more fire more police officers if we add more people so I think I would stay with the same answer that we have not seen development necessarily result whether in the schools or in the population adding more people I don't know if one family because you have more control it's you let's say you Gary Shar have a one family home you're deciding who's going to live here and I think you live in the neighborhood so you have something vested in that M Ro you know who you want there I don't think you're you're taking your attic and saying on 10 people with 10 cars now ideally I would love it for to for you to say my grandkid is tired of my kids and I understand it because I was tired of my kids they tired of their parents and my my 19y old grandson wants to come live with Grandpa but he doesn't want to live in the house with Grandpa he wants to live in the Attic that's my ideal scenario but I have no control over that we can't we can't even legislate that or make that through ordinance it must be your grandchild we we can't do that so I think it depends on whatever hypothetical you make you can make the argument as whether it's going to have a budgetary impact if I say we're going to build a new school does that mean that more families are going to move in because we have a new school so we're going to need more police we're going need more crossing guards we're going to need more fire yes you can make that argum but historically we haven't seen that be the case I do think the fact that it can be the case is reason enough to reduce the number I I do agree with that we don't know and it would be disingenuous of me to make an argument that two accessory dwelling units is going to have no impact the same as one but I don't don't know if I can make the argument that adding the opportunity for you to decide that you're adding because and I Want To Tread carefully here I believe it occurs already in our city and cities around the state I believe people have their families living in addicts and in basements in additional needs this provides the opportunity to take substandard living conditions because you're scared to come to the city and say you can do it this council is actually and this may saying we want to help you do it let's do it right and second I think that the argument of creating affordable housing or rather than not arguing but the opportunity for us to create affordable housing while we're seeing that the outcry continues to grow outweighs the negative of do we end up with more police because I think police come when you have more crime and fire maybe make the argument if you're increasing square footage you may create homes that are closer to each other developments are closer but allowing individuals to use their homes in a way that otherwise they were not allowed to or maybe be used illegally I think it's a benefit and I don't believe it would directly impact our budget I would ask the business administrative to add in so statistically um adaptive reuses which is what we're doing here in a lot of these spaces that we're talking about would not increase the services because they already exist they're already buildings that are being serviced if you fire protection actually and to the mayor's Point creating legal areas which meet code actually have greater fire safety protection and will reduce the need for those Services because they're not being to code currently I don't have to hide my addict so now I can do it legally now you can come in and tell me how to make it safe now there's less likelihood of a fire you may not need as much that's why I mean you can make the hypothetical for each one or the argument rather the argument because I don't have another for either case but I think one historically statistics have shown that it has not created an unnecessary burden or additional burden on the budget or government services that that is correct um I'm sorry um councilwoman yes yes so um I'm trying to do this in order you freaking me I'm glad you brought up you know let be reality is you do have some people that do rent out oh the reality is that you you might have one or two people that do rent out right and they're doing it because they can't afford to pay the mortgage or whatever and they're hiding you know and they'll say it's my son or whatever it doesn't matter right as long as it's up to code when you usually have a one or two family house I know you usually like I want either my son or something you're not going to just have anyone move in there because that's just the norm human nature we just want somebody that we know we can trust or whatever right I I've been lucky my my home is a legal three family house it looks like a one family everybody thinks right so I've been lucky to have my children stay there then they move out and then the grandkids come in and then one grandchild moves out and the other one comes in and then comes back why because they can't afford to pay the rents out there and what do you do right you you're not going to kick them out they're there or whatever so I I agree with this whichever way you guys agree I I say as long as it's up to Cod and basement that's that's my fear basement as long as they have a way to it come in both ways and the attic both ways my my attic I guess years ago before I bought the house which was 20 something years ago or 30 years ago it used to be a one family house and then whoever owned it and this is historical whoever owned it sold it and the second person went and built three family and made it legal and then I happened to ride by and I got the house you know so I'm the third owner so I'm lucky to have a three family and lucky that a couple years ago when everything was going down I lost my job for two years my husband lost his job for two years but because I had the three family helped me stay where I was at so I'm just saying I think this is a great idea as long as it's up to Cod and we keep talking about the kids but we're forgetting about ourselves at a certain point you're going to want to downsize and maybe that three-bedroom that you're currently living and I don't know if it is or not right and now you have it's just you and your spouse maybe you have the attic can only fit a one bedroom now you and your spouse move up to the one bedroom and you rented your child who now has multiple kids and grandkids moved to the unit you had with the three bedrooms and now you're in the unit that's above so let's not forget that either this is also and it's Nationwide adus are also for Aging in place that's why I started with the statistics of how many of our population is over the age of 55 because that's also a growing need in the municipality uh that we can't forget as far as the R dwelling units so I I I was going to make a joke of it but I said I think it's a little bit more of a serious topic and they throw you said the gr they throw you in the attic and they take the apartment they're not going to keep you they do believe it helps us address the issue of affordable housing accessory do this as I mentioned before I think though not the direct reason we're doing it but it adds value to your home helps for generational wealth keeps families together and gives you the option and it puts the power in the hand of the property owner so again I I think it's pragmatic to reduce the number I believe it's extremely beneficial to us to have an approach of increasing affordable housing do we have any any analysis any supposition anything at all to assume what the results will be at the end of the year that how many conversions or whatever would be I think we we would go with what we've seen in the past we haven't seen an increase of individuals trying to add square footage to their home so we don't expect that we're GNA get a flood of individuals say oh now I can rent to my kid I'm gonna I'm gonna go redo my attic and make it bigger and then have it reassessed and get more taxes the only way we're going to get those stats for our city exact numbers is to do it that's how we're going to see it it becomes extremely hard because it' be conject we'd be pulling numbers out the a what we can say is that in other municipalities we've seen municipalities range from Suburban to Urban accept this model seems to be a good compromise in terms of creating affordable housing in a responsible way that benefits homeowners may not be able to immediately reduce their taxes you know cost of living is rising and individuals are concerned about where their families are going to live more and more am are choosing to stay together just for economic reasons and this gives the opportunity for you to say come home mom and live with us in the Attic or kids come home and start here don't don't go off into debt start here save some money help pay off this house so you're going to inherit anyway when we're gone this is going to be your inheritance so it does help some families and it gives us the opportunity to turn to a community with we have unique needs and we have some needs that are similar to other municipalities and say this is the approach that we thought would benefit across the board across the board whether you have a big one family or a small one family everyone gets the opportunity for an accessory dwelling unit one there's no questions please yeah just uh just to wrap this up yeah a garage has to be attached to the main structure or a garage be has to be on the law has to be detached as well it could be detached in fact we would argue most of the garages that are detached are probably more conducive for this yeah that's definitely the Mike sier approach separate I think Happy Days also had I think Fonzi lived on Fon lived on top of the garage so we've seen some of these around the city some of the garages that have the additional unit top that you can convert into a little one-bedroom studio for your kid college or things like that okay um just um again that's going back to the language here again I I don't know I just don't know how it works tenants for each assessor unit cannot exceed the maximum income limits as established annually by US Department of Housing but what I heard earlier was it have to be 80% yes so I could give you I can give you those numbers right now so let's say do to be part of the resolution that's what I'm saying it does not because that has to be 80% of Ami no that's done by Hud that's what I'm saying that's the beauty of by yeah so I could tell you 2023 numbers right now if you want it's fine so Maxim limits for something which is affordable housing is the 80% that's def finishment of right and they do the calculations regionally for us okay so that we already know the number they do all the studies all the data collection and give us the number already okay other question I have is what mechanism is in place will be in place in City Hall to to to track let's say we get 200 of these right who's tracking in a yearly bases that that there that the tenants there that there has to be a lease and who's tracking the pay stubs to sure that it's that it's certified that these people are making less than 80% of Ami and so on so forth what is the mechanism for all this to do so the beauty of it it already exists in we already do that with all our HUD funded projects so we would not change that you have this um the city of's current ordinances have multiple locations in which the processes are reviewed you have um tenant registrations which tells you the number of people that are in there the rents that they're paying the number of units you have code enforcement and Zoning which are going to put that restriction on the and you have the deed restriction which is required before they can get their C ofo and then finally and ultimately you have our Community Development Department which is the uh Department which is very well-versed in these HUD guidelines that are going to review the income limitations and the rental limitations and that's already done now in our HUD projects it would just be every time these cosos are issued that department is also going to be included we go back to the so it doesn't become a blanket approval for everyone you have to come in to have this registered as my accessory dwelling unit so it isn't like tomorrow you wake up and go okay the council just waved the wand I have an addict that can be rented you have to come in and go through the process inspections and make sure meets all the qualifications yes and remember you said it if they don't meet lock coverage if they don't meet Heights they have to go they got to get a variance just like any other homeowner would in the entire city this does not preclude them from getting those approvals necessary need a variance to do this no no no they need a variance if they don't meet code that me code and if a and if a two family turns into a three family it has to go to a board well it's not for twoam it's only for ones and twos right but if a two family let's say right now if I heard the council correctly we're doing one accessory unit right if that two units becomes a three unit under the state of New Jersey it requires site plan approval at the planning board so one a a one a one family would not have to go for they would go to the zoning board if they don't make code so I don't want to get too technical but just so you understand a one and two family house in the state of New Jersey if it's a bulk variance not a d right because in the state of New Jersey they do not require sight plan approval it goes to the zoning board so you made a statement about do they exceed lock coverage that goes to the zoning board now this is a conditional use if they don't meet one of these conditions it now becomes a d variance because of these conditions and still goes to the zoning board so a condition could be is let's say it says here that the the dwelling area be no less than 300 square feet right so if they want to put this in with 200 square feet they got a D3 use variants that needs to board that's correct it's the reason why I said it's the most practical approach because their checks and balances in place we get to meet not the requirements because we're not going to meet all of the ideal requirements the expectation that we're providing more affordable housing in a responsible way where we still have this process so people can't abuse it right so this variances whether it's a zoning a zoning zoning or planning certain powers for instance to allow less than 300 square feet right or allow less coverage of done a lot right but they don't have the ability to give a variance if it doesn't need fire code that's correct the width of staircases that's correct with the size of egress windows 100% that that St that state code or even some of the stuff is City stuff it's fire stuff that doesn't fall into V so what would happen is this if they did need to go to the board they would hire an architect and the architect would have to present it to code to keep their license and not lose their license in the state of New Jersey so whatever the board would see in the expectation is that they're licensed professionals that are going to meet code and guess what let's say they make a mistake and it doesn't when they get to to the code department and they don't meet it they have to and if by any reason that changes any of the approvals they got to go back to the board to make sure they build it accordingly and the board gets to approve whatever they need to approve so you understand this is not special to this ordinance that is just general practice for land use cases okay would the administration be okay with going with one unit and changing it to 20 years yes but ideally I do want ideally wanted to yes I do understand we would be open one 20 years to keep it affordable yes and if I so we say we're not going to restrict which one right okay which one you want every house is different make and I can tell you right now we talk about basements here very few of our houses in the city of Pake is an actual basement there more sellers you can do this yeah and even less that are willing to build a garage to do this because it won't make sense yeah this is my last question would not make that statement if I were I did not say say let me just uh let me say it's my last question for this ordinance any reason why we're restricting it to only a lot that already has a principal building structure like if we want want encourage affordable housing if someone has a lot empty lot I mean go put up unit that's that would become that would become a single family BL yeah that's not that's not an except that's no longer access this is accessory dwelling again I think it clarifies if you're doing the accessory dwelling in the Attic you you don't necessarily become a three family home if you already have if you're had a two family home it'd be a three you'd be a three family so you don't get to do it if you're a two family oh yeah you do and you become a three family that's an exess for unit Council oh I'm sorry I'm trying to figure out just to be clear that we're not in in in a way restricting the opportunity to build it one family and two family homes are allowed to do one accessory dwelling unit there's no limit on one family can do one and two families can't do it so lost my train of why we're not building it's because yes once you build a unit and it's not accessory attached okay so not that I'm going to do it but I have a three family you can't and I have a I know we change it to three family you would not be able so I have to keep my grandson you can't put you can't put your husband in the garage no you can't my mind is racing right now if I me and I just want to make a family it becomes yes so you know that the three family I'm not wrong because they did this to me I didn't know that you you have the state now comes to that's correct respect also so under the hotel they will come right under the hotel and multiple dwelling law of the state of New Jersey you have to register with the state and they have a fiveyear cyclical inspection which you probably haven't had yours for 10 years but that's different and every five years it's the green card so people call it the the the multiple family Green Card let's be clear on that because it's a little green card you get from the state of New Jersey saying they inspected it and you meet the state of New Jersey's minimal maintenance code so yes you have to get that no it's good so that's another level of inspection so to ensure that the attorney is clear it's a one one accessory D unit in 20 years so that was the question I was going to ask are we going to amend this before sending it I we're sending to the planning board that's correct we can amend this and then send it to the planning board for their commented so just for the edification of the public as the council does it all the time under the municipal landage law of the state of New Jersey any land use regulations that are changed by ordinance require a consistency review a master plan consistency review by the planning board which would be conducted in the beginning of March and then the second reading for this would uh we requesting respectfully the second meeting in March so that we can have the recommendation from the planning board before the council has its second and final hearing okay what is the disposition of the council I'm comfortable with this councilman uh love I'm fine with it and and uh Administration is amendable to the changes so the change that's going to be made is it's going to change from two to 10 to 20 one dwelling right one addition and from 10 10 to 20 am I correct you all agree I'm fine we have a motion is there a maker please motion to accept second motion to accept I have maker and a second roll call counc yes yes yes yes yes sh you yes so that was thir 39 yes yes this will go on our meeting of March 19 2024 and the and ordinance the 40 which we're looking at now that would also be for March 19th yes sir very good on 40 please are there any questions on 40 I have lights on could you ladies and Gentlemen please check your monitor I do have a light on I was I wanted to talk about councilman monoun thank yeah okay this is on 40 sir 40 okay again this is about affordable housing yes this is not about finding a place for your mother law right okay um again I understand the the intent here right and what the goal here is again to encourage in every way possible affordable housing right um so a couple of questions so the the resol the ordinance is request is requiring um any development of five dwellings or more to have 20 % if it's for sale it's 20% of the units it's affordable and if it's for rental 15% um how does it work I understand I understand the rental part of it we spoke about length about the Ami different rates one bedroom two bedroom so so forth how is affordable housing work with sales of units um good question so that would also be income limited and then there's a maximum sale price of the unit that would make it affordable depending on regional market uh analysis so how does that they give us a it depends on the unit so it's hard for me and that's why I didn't bring it because it depends is it a condo unit is it a townhouse unit is it a one family house so it depends what's the square footage of the family house so a lot of that a lot of those fact are taking into account when HUD gives us the numbers depending on the type of of unit um but as an example and this one's a little bit dated but when we did the uh homes on Broadway Broadway they were $125,000 per affordable unit for sale based on the HUD calculation just so you put it in perspective so uh I believe the VFW ones are also around $120,000 maybe a little less for the VFW condo apartments and that's that would that just happened so these are fresh numbers so a condo unit two-bedroom condo unit uh was about 120,000 after you infuse all the dollars and the beauty of the program is because we have a first-time home buyer program that can be tacked on to the program right so what'll happen is let's say it's $125,000 to buy the house and we give you and you qualify for up to $30,000 of the first-time home buyer program that the mayor discussed you cannot get $30,000 to put a down payment for that property because you qualify so that doesn't preclude you from getting that money and because it's income restricted the taxes are also reduced because you're an income restricted purchaser if you were asking I'm trying to beat you to the question so I like to understand where this 20% came from because we're always especially the Administration has been at the Forefront of development development development which is amazing go look at say was 10 years ago today to it's just amazing it's just amazing what's going on so let's let's think of scenar this is five units or more let's take a scenario let's say six dwellings of I'm building six town homes okay M 20% have to be have to sell for as affordable units So 20% of six is 1.2 but I can't sell 1.2 but you roll it up based on this ordinance you go up so which means two of the six I have to sell as affordable units so using the numbers you mentioned earlier I have to sell for $125,000 a piece based on the resolution we had earlier of building these HUD units which are really small and whatever one bedroom two bedrooms with one bathroom I mean minimum minimum minimum right it cost us $272,000 close to $300,000 so if I'm building something at $300,000 six units two of them I'm forced to sell for cheaper for people who could afford which is $125,000 which means I need to take a loss on two of my six units I need to take a $175,000 loss which is $350,000 my project but I'm giving it back to which means I have to make that money the additional $350,000 and the other four units which is around $85,000 additional cost cost the other units which I'm building the other four are going to cost me an extra $85,000 because these four have to compensate for the loss I need to take in the first two right but you're such a Savvy investor that you know that we have significant amount of Home funds that can go into this project and you will get your $300,000 back on home funds and have a resolution just like the project we just had so that you can get your difference so you suggesting that in this ordinance we P we put in here you only have to sell 20% if you get home funds no okay therefore let's talk about without the home funds tell me find me one developer who's going to build six units where he has to take 20% two of the four which is a third of his units he has to sell at a loss that type of loss it's going to kill development now so therefore i' like to understand the science where this 20% came from y I understand what we're trying to do we want to push developers give back to the community it's a very normal thing you build anywhere in other places it's called impact fees right you're impacting the need more Parks because you want to be building 300 units you give impact Fe you have to put money towards the city to improve the parks okay improve the roads and so on and so forth but what's the science of 20% is that going to what background work was done here to back up that this is the right number and it still makes it affordable that people could still continue to develop which has been such the Forefront of this Administration so these numbers are standard numbers from the state of New Jersey and the Supreme Court of the state of New Jersey of over I don't even I can't I lost count of how many calculations were done throughout the state to come up with a 20% number set aside for for purchase and the main reason for it and the mayor said it and council president said it is for creating generational wealth there is a huge gap of individuals being restricted from purchasing homes that then cannot create the general weal the generational wealth to get out of the affordable housing uh category right because most of us we're not developers and own multiple homes your greatest asset is your home you get I could tell you from personal experience I had a second mortgage in my house just to get my daughter through college right so that is what generational wealth brings to the table as an example I me counts and I'm I'm willing to stay here as late as possible I kind of see where this may be going the 20% is a standard number and we've done the studies and the statistics I feel we may have a very long conversation to ultimately come to can we lower this number I want to try to get there as quick as possible cognizant of the fact that it's been a long meeting if there if if the 20% is a concern because the six condos that are going to be developed considering there's six instead of 10 12 or 15 would would you and would the council be open if it was a less 18 17 15% we're looking to do is is moving forward this will not retro this will not retro impact any of the development moving forward on new development to have a set aside for affordable housing if there's a reasonable number that we can agree with this Administration would be open to except that number and moving forward on the vote because we we're going to go back on stats the truth is the ba is going to give you stats he's going to refer to the Mount laal decision he's going to refer to other municipalities and we're going to discuss it not ad nauseum but we're gonna have long discussions and if we're ultimately going to get to a place to go what if we went down to 15% because I would be open to it because again the spirit of of of the ordinance and the goal is to create affordable housing so I hope that's a fair question is there that you may be thinking or that the council may be thinking in all due respect me right yeah if memory serves me correctly the state's guidance here is 20% yes but since the city so we can determine the number we can decide because we're moving forward on ordinance if we find the reasonable number that we say we want 15% yeah and then we look at it for the future I would if the state is is going in One Direction I think that we need to be in that direction I think it would be uh difficult at best despite all the great things that we're doing tonight and prior um for the city to come out with a 15% figure after the state's coming out with a 20 understood understood again I I don't believe we're required to do it I agree with you that's why we determin 20% and I I think we could defend it we could defend the can I just I understand um council president all due respect to the state we just had early discussion of Hut HUD funds of how HUD funds work right blowing out millions of dollars to one municipality where we could benefit people in many many different ways right I don't know if you could take 500 municipalities in the state of state of New Jersey and with one paintbrush and say okay it makes sense 20% for us okay every city rents are different right and the purpose of the 20% figure councilman is to encourage in the most strongest way possible for a change of how the state has been doing business understood because figure the the numbers that have been historic have been anemic at best yes sir um and the state is taking a more aggressive point of view For Better or For Worse right understood but the that's that's without looking at the city putting up now 12 units in one spot right using other funds to build affordable housing right and the other thing is there are other municipalities that are not in need of Redevelopment like the city of Pake without the development that has happened over the last 10 years okay we'd be dead in the water and if we don't continue that development all right you you know where taxes are going we know what the increase I'm not sure this would help the argument but I believe that the a project or development under the Redevelopment plan would not be required that's correct re development law is separate and apart from this and would be voted on independently by the governing body versus the ordinance so though I want to say on record I agree with the 20% and as I mentioned before I was in the state in the hearing with the assemblyman I do believe 20% would be best I was looking for consent ensus and sometimes compromise I would prefer 20% we can definitely go through the numbers I just want to share but perhaps you would reconsider the 20% if you the Redevelopment my my really my response really was is I was gonna ask if we could just wait two weeks only okay so that I could I don't I think for me just like just like I was asking like where does this 20% come from like what's the backup for me to throw out a number of 15 or 18 or 19% is also been doing the same thing what's my back up right I want to do more of a maybe speak to developers right look at your numbers and just go to your Excel model change it now where it look does it work doesn't work we need to keep development going we have to have keep development going and maybe the number is 20% it might be 20% I'm not I'm not suggesting it and and I'd also like to take a look at the state where this where the state's coming from again every city is different what works across the state they're looking at just the whole state does not necessarily what's best for the city of Pake understood so with that stated councilman if if I may could we consider passing this and having the disc because passing it today doesn't doesn't create the ordinance make it law today it moves us along because if you say it could be 20% Then we could be closer to where we need to I I don't have I don't have an issue with that okay I don't have an issue with that so what would be the conclusion if ask that we would pass it today and continue the conversation with research on whether 20% even though that's the state number figure that would be used for passage tonight would be 20% 20% yes so we're going to do a further exploration but the number out there is 20% Mr Fernandez I see you're in consultation with the mayor which is a good thing but this is an issue that I would love to hear what you just said sure I think he's in agreement with me that passing it today and having further conversations at next meeting would make sense we can always change it but right now we're going with the intended um and what we believe is policy coming G given to us by the state is this being sent to the planning board for review with the 20% yes but it still has to come back to the council can I also get an understanding of B2 in in this ordinance please event that there's more than one affordable unit provid mix a bedroom now my question is how can you have less than one affordable unit how can you only have because there only applies for five dwellings or more right there's more than one affordable unit so yeah so if it's one affordable unit you get to choose what you want to make it a one bedroom a two-bedroom a three bedroom it's up to you because it's only one if it's more than one like in your scenario where there's two of them then B would fall okay so if there one affordable unit if there more than one affordable unit developers should provide a mix of bedroom unit types among the affordable units in conjunction with the following bedroom distribution okay no more than 20% of dwelling units within one building shall consist of one bedroom units in studios what does this mean basically what it's saying is you can't fill this unit up with all Studios and all bedrooms we don't want that you also can't just fill it up with all three bedrooms and four bedrooms so what we're saying is you have to make 30% of that of that percentage be two bedrooms so if I have a two so if I have I I built again I built I built uh six units okay and two of them are so now so two of them have to meet this so what does it mean no more than 20% of the dwelling units within one billion cons now that's 50% each unit is 50% so if it's a one bedroom I I only have two affordable which means if I have a one bedroom that's 50% and this says no more than 20% Which means how do I how do I build this so if you have six units right yeah that's one unit would be can can be one bedroom because you have six units and one unit has to be two-bedroom you can't just do both of them one unit of the affordable housing affordable rents yeah but no more than of the dwelling units so it's the total of the project so if I have six units and two of them have to be affordable right one has to be two-bedroom and then the other one could be a one-bedroom or can be a three bed but no more than 20% of the dwelling units which doing units all the do why would we restrict because you need to put 20% to affordable housing why would I restrict a developer from building ones or twos or threes I he wants to build what the market dictates why are we what does one thing have to do the other because when you're talking about affordable housing and the statistics coming from the state and looking at our demographic here our household sizes are on the higher side our current census data is three our housing our household size is over three people per household you don't want them to fill up those affordable units with just one bedrooms or just Studios right so you're doing a very small sample size of six but if you're doing larger projects you can't have them meet their obligation of this code by building us all one bedrooms that would negate the need of the affordable housing units which are predominantly family and that's not just in the city of paciic that's actually from the state so again so the 20% 30% is of the affordable percentage or 20 is of all the units in this Z buing 100 units let say I'm building 100 units that's right have 20 units affordable so this means I cannot build more than the whole building cannot have more than 21 bedrooms not the whole building but the units that are affordable so this this 20% 30% is strictly too affordable based on your total unit based on your total unit count now that's what he was asking on the six units that if you're doing two units those two units can't both be one bedro correct but the other four units can be whatever you want yes I think that's where the confusion right but it's calculated on the total number of units the six yes but the four can be whatever in the one 100 the 80 can be whatever the 20 cannot be all one they can't be stent so if I build 100 units yes I can have 80 which are all one bedrooms one bedom two bedom or 80 could be all three bedrooms 20% of them right not be all Studios that's right okay so no more than 20% of the dwelling units within one building to consist of one bedroom which means of the 20 which I have to leave for affordable no more than 20% of those okay which means four of them hold on the math is in math hold on because I want to be clear this the 20% of the 100 is 20 units right those 20 cannot be all Studios so it's telling me I just want to make sure I'm reading this correct so no more than 20% of the dwelling units which means they affordable housing units no more than 20% of the affordable I'll put the word in here of of the 20% of the total units we just said you can build 80 one bedrooms 83 bedrooms yeah 20% of the total units are the ones that are set aside right of those set aside you cannot build them all studios Okay so that's that's that's right okay okay those have to you were saying the same thing how you understand it that's understand the way the mayor understand so other words so can we get clarity on this ordinance say it should say no more than 20% of the affordable affordable units right run dwelling units could be older units wait a minute wait no more than 20% of the affordable units the problem is that takes 20% of the affordable So 20% of the 20 units would be four no no 20% of 20 is four we're saying the 20% of the 100 cannot be all one it cannot be all one if if your wording would become interpret an interpretation that 20% of the affordable can't be all the same then you're reducing the number talking about sub B where they're saying if there is more than one affordable unit then they have to be broken down according to these percentages how was this written I think what the council Council P councilman is saying is that it might sound like 20% is the restriction on the entire building rather than the restriction on the affordable unit what it so how do you say this only impacts the affordable units we would simply could even by Amendment right now to say more than 20% of the affordable dwelling units at least put the word affordable affordable because that that catches it from from B2 which uses affordable unit 20% of the affordable units you wouldn't word it with 20% and this applies only to the affordable units right I mean there's an argument that because it comes through the the ordinance in a certain way with the subsections that it is referring to it the subsection immediately above it but for extra Clarity and and to to to clear it up we could put affordable dwelling units in all of those subsections a through D okay just for clarity okay so let me this now with adding those words so no more than 20% of the affordable dwelling units within one building shall consist of one bedroom units which means again if I build a 100 units 20 of them are affordable which means 20 are they for sale are they okay for rental let's 15% okay let's go down to 15% we'll use that 15% for rental I build 100 units 15% have to be affordable so 15 of them are are have to be affordable of the 15 no more than 20% of those can be one bedroom which means 20% of 15 is three so I have three one bedrooms up to three one bedrooms then it says at least 30% of all dwelling units are are two bedroom so 30% have to be two-bedroom okay so that's a half of the affordable so your 15 units so 30 30% of that is gonna be four and a half so five so five of those so that's eight units five of these units have to be two bedrooms okay and at least 20% of all dwelling units all affordable dwelling units are three bedroom units unless the mark rate component of the product does not include three bedro so in your scenario that 80% of the rest the 80 are going to be one bedrooms you don't have to provide a three-bedroom because your full project doesn't contain three bedrooms but if but if my project does contain three bedrooms so then 20% is another three so you have three left you could do whatever and then three you could do whatever you want okay so for one bedrooms is no more but for two bedrooms and three bedro it's at least that's the difference well the three bedroom is if you have if you have three bedrooms you need at least so the two bedrooms is at least and the one bedrooms is a Max right that was advisedly and does and does the council understand why I I understand because you're trying to create affordable housing for home for families right and then what happens is you're going to fill up the rest of your market rate units as three bedrooms and then stick the affordable with just ones and twos and that's why that language is in there got it so we had to take some Liberties to make it fit the city of Pake and that's one of them okay so we have to stick in the word AFF afford okay affordable units in there right okay okay that answers that take your time coun I'm sorry just a hold my different no no please your time this a good good question the again now affordable here again means what criteria is again the 80% of Ami so it depends on the number of units and it depends on the funding well no funding this this guy's forget about the F then you could do um 80% of Ami 80 to 60% of Ami 80 or 60 which one is it so it's both it could be between 60 and 80 get you the same rental number so you have you as a you as a developer have a a range of individuals you can rent to between 60 and 80% and still charge the same rent got it okay so as long as they're making 80% less than 80% of Ami they'll qualify for these units right but if they fall below 60 then the rent lowers got it based on these numbers you're not obligated to rent to people making less than 60 we're not we did not put that in there un unless you take HUD money money right because that's a HUD requirement not a city requirement it okay are there any other questions on 40 okay do we have a makeer on 40 Mo motion and second on 40 please yes yes yes Garcia yes yes yes thank you 41 please propose the ordinance amending the designation of restricted parking for disabled persons by New Jersey license plate number uh to be set for March 19 motion and second roll call okay I'm sorry council president for 41 do it at our May I'm sorry ma'am may I'm sorry March 5th meeting March 5th yes that's uh I have another vote please so move this is to move it to March 5th yes yes yes councilwoman yesc yes thank you 142 please an ordinance amending the designation of restricted parking for disabled persons to be heard on March 5th is there a motion please MO second and second thank you roll call counc Mon yes counc love yes counc yes Council Garcia yes Council counc pres yes thank you uh before payment of bills uh if I can share with the council uh we have a policy where uh if people wish to have questions uh that they' like to raise during hearing of citizens that the questions need to be sent to the city clerk um and then read by the council president at the meeting when appropriate uh that does not apply to letters which may come to the council uh which if the letter is not signed for the record uh a letter did come in it is not signed and hence I did not read it into the minutes for the meeting that's number one number two we had uh a gentleman here who spoke earlier about uh not getting information in time in order to make a decision um I believe that we responded appropriately by based on advice of councel I believe we spoke uh purposely correctly in terms of uh how we responded um but I did want to uh apologize to the clerk and to her office if I in any way insinuated anything except that you're doing an amazing job so I for the record we up to payment of bills R numeral 12 are there any questions on the bills councilman monk thank you make it fast the good thing is is only 25 Pages the really better thing is I'm in my bedtime is 11 o' now I have a question about on page three we had earlier resolution about the copy machines and in the resolution it said that inclusive in the fees are cartridges and maintenance on page three there is again I said this is last year I'm assuming we're copying last year's uh contracts assuming that you have Rico c c a fee for cartridges of $41 here and the other thing is if you do do a quick math um the resolution had 33 copy machines at $68,000 that's around $2,000 a piece $2,000 a piece a year comes out let's say $180 a month and they look at all these fees on page three copy here for housing $95 $95 $95 $95 um are we based on this new resolution we passed tonight are we increasing the cost of our capping machines by 80 90% and also why are we paying for these cdges so the issue is and the reason you see many of them there is that unfortunately uh the housing department had several months of bills they had to pay at once so these were multiple invoices spanning several months that were not paid and were do before they rolled the copy machine out of the office that we needed to pay so we put them all on the same it seems we're paying $95 a month and based on the resolution we passed tonight of $68,000 for 33 copy machines that's that's like $2,000 a copy machine per year which is $180 a month so there's there's two different copy machine companies okay this is just Rico is just one of them right we have another one I forgot um yeah the resolution what is it K Sarah whatever right um and remember that what happens is most of the copy machines are black and white um our copy machines in the clerk's office and for planning and zoning and and administration are colored copiers those have a different number so code is going to have $95 a month because code is black and white oh yeah it is okay in terms of the in terms of paying for cartridges is that included so typically it's not included I have to check specifically this one cartridge and what the issue was with this cartridge um you look on page nine there's also a toner there for cop machine that's actually for a printer that's a it could be a printer that's a printer that's a printer could be a printer that's a printer the other ones our cdges so okay all right there's no cop and printers it's an argument everywhere because you have to keep keep the warranty just in case we don't have a warranty we renting them rent releasing them it's even better and that's the only way you could go because you B them off the service so so maybe we'll get our money back in that Carthage well any other questions on the bills I have a question please on page four the last entry 2424 shipping 6.99 could you tell me what that is please which page sir page four four I know the problem is that there's a lot of page fours not the literal page four the last entry 214 for shipping $6.99 $6 well no the council president's question is because it's Amazon there should be prime free shipping that's the question well this Council didn't approve didn't approve the $99 annually they it's it's 100 it's 100 now look I'm dating myself Amazon Prime requires an additional membership thank you for the clarity it kept me up last night there any other questions on the bills is there a motion to accept the bills please motion a second please councilman monks now I'll second motion and second roll call please skip let's go yes yes yes Garcia yes yes thank you um it is not often that we engage in a serious and significant policy discussion I'd like to thank my colleagues in the Administration mayor of course for putting it on the high level that it was um all kidding aside yes um Mr fernandz you did a stellar job this evening and I know that I speak on behalf of all my colleagues in the in the council uh administrator's report none at this time sir good deal sir report very briefly and we'll discuss further at the next council meeting the state is putting or considering legislation that would require ebikes electronic bikes to have to to pay for insurance to register and pay for insurance similar to cars and motorcycles I want to put that on your radar as it is it one of the residents in the city of Pake was concerned about some of these bikes some of them do have license plates others do not but uh it was stopped and sent back to committee for some concerns but there is an expectation that it would pass the recent uh residents that came in to complain about Vans as to vehicles that transport students to school we have found a temporary solution a temporary solution in terms of a lot that they can use overnight and the ability to park as Tools in their driveways to June however it is temporary and I had explained to the group that it can only be a permanent solution if it goes to the council so we have further discussions in future Council meetings just so this body would consider whether we want to make a permanent change for specific vehicles in terms of being allowed to park in driveways I know that it was a discussion we've had in the past in terms of commercial vehicles but this new category May there may be justification for allowing them to park whereas we may not want a huge ice cream truck or a bigger vehicle but these vehicles it may be an easier solution to maintain them off the street and allow them to park in driveways while uh partnering with the parking authority to provide permit parking in a specific area of the city where there is no parking overnight permit parking permanent parking in terms of a solution I'm sorry mayor permit or permit per perit there can be no permanent solution unless it goes to the council I had spoken to the group but we made a temporary solution in order to provide them with some kind of assistance until June the end of this school year with the expectation at the beginning of the school year and that there wasn't Clarity on S2s at the beginning of the year or previous years that we can try to make some provision right now however going forward after June this Council would have to decide whether they want to allow them to permanently be allowed to park in driveways and if we want to continue with uh an agreement with the parking authority will they get permits and pay an annual fee or school year fee more school year fee from September to June and then turn in their vehicles wherever the vehicles come from so we would present potentially we can have that before June I obviously have convers with the council president at our agenda review our business administrator and our clerk will present the potential of how it could be written and then this body could consider whether you want to codify it and make it permanent thank you ma'am okay um memb of the council thank you we had it was a very productive night thank you Council monk I King aside noing aside this marketing aside you raise issues which are vital to be discussed thank you thank you that is disregarded everything you said but nonetheless is there a motion please to adjourn Some Mo motion and second to adjourn roll call please yes yes thank you this meeting thank you ladiesent