otherwise I'm not going to be able to save my life I'll tell you Miami is important to speak Spanish oh [Music] absolutely unit States and to the rep for it stands one nation God indivisible liy and justice for all you take R please Mayor John Eric Cooper here vice mayor Linda Rodriguez here councilman Tom canella here councilman David Mueller here councilwoman Cherokee Samson here City attorney Nancy Meyer here city manager Matthew CER here thank you first up comments from the general public I don't have any signed up does anybody like to speak show hands moving right long to comments from the city man turn mat CER for his comments he has I have no comments for time okay and then now the comments from mayor of city council anybody have comments I would we've all made comments up on up here that we want residents to come um and speak and give us their ideas and opinions and so on and so forth um last meeting at a regular council meeting we had a citizen come up and uh have a Viewpoint and the comeback from another Resident was totally um uncalled for um the way they were spoken to um I I just want to assure the residents that I think we up here hold 100% responsibility for allowing that to continue everybody's entitled to their opinion both sides of the coin are entitled to their opinion but the way Mr McClary was um spoken to was was was doeses not encourage residents to come up to the podium to speak so I would like to myself apologize to Mr McClary for allowing that to continue and to happen um Mr Todd has every right to State his opinion absolutely but in the way it was done against Mr mlar or any Resident is just not appropriate so I would like to um myself apologize for allowing that to continue yeah thank you um and I I add it to that since I were in the meeting the you know there's a a statement that we I try to read sometimes I forget to do that I want to actually do that more obviously to to make sure that people aware of the how to conduct themselves when they do that um I don't uh I kind of preface that I don't want to have a banter back and forth between residents and and US calling us out directly or whatever uh we do encourage public participation um I try to be a little lenient facilitate that and so you know a lot of the hus is on the speakers up there I don't want to have to gavel people out all the time either um so uh this has a general rule if everybody you know you do make comments obviously keep them professional um try not to attack individuals whatever I want to give you your time to speak but we don't want to turn into a shot match so I appreciate your comments totally agree with that I think everybody has their own opinion and that is just what it is opinion we can't critize each other right or wrong that's not what this is for and I'm I'm sorry you went that way it was it was an embarrassing moment and hopefully we don't see that again or have that occur uh at this at this Council thanks any other comments da could I ask uh how does it sound out there does it sound muffled or bad or what good better better much better okay um I'm wondering if the volume could be turned down just a little bit is Echo a little bit so that we don't have that Echo up is very annoying is that better yall still here okay yeah that's good thanks okay moving on to council business the uh only item we have tonight is number one discussion of ordinance number 24696 amending section 12758 of article 3 of chapter 127 of the city of Port rich code of ordinances to allow for recreational vehicle parts in a parks in a planned unit development zoning District I'll pass it to Mr C introduction thank you very much so we have uh I've put together a PowerPoint this is a joint uh project between the City attorney and myself um so we'll be tag teaming a lot on as we go through this but um there's a couple parts to this presentation before I start the first part is kind of bring bring back some of the questions that was asked during the discussion to make sure that you see some the answer to some of the questions that was brought up either by the public or yourselves there's only a couple things there and then we're going to go in and go through each section and talk about what what each section says get an understanding before we move on that this this sounds good doesn't sound good we want to change it this way um in doing that if if we want to go forward it's going to help expedite bringing it forward it's not going to take um offence code amount of time which is a new thing that I want to kind of say that that's a length of time fence coat infinite yes everyone will know it's nine months right but anyhow um so we'll get started with this and so the first thing there was a conversation that came up about the um this would work of course I have to hit the right button about the zoning code and and I believe uh councilman canel asked about the zoning code it been good to have that he's right um a couple things I want to bring up about this is that this particular zoning code or zoning map uh was done in 2011 um so it's a little bit old it hasn't been updated since then and we're are now in the process to get this updated but I'm pretty sure right now that the areas that we were talking about for the A1 is in fact A1 and and so there's actually two different areas that are A1 so the green area is the A1 color and that is the the area that uh the Mr Todd's property is and where they're looking to do um a development there the lower green um which is the only other agricultural is actually owned by the city so our well Fields down there and we own some of the surrounding so I'm pretty sure that we don't have to worry about a RV park happening there so we'd only be concerned about the area there to the upper right um for development related day1 and so I also have the board there as we go through this presentation we don't go back to this you can visualize it there as well thank you good the the next issue that was brought up and and actually when when the resident was talking about it you know I was sitting there listening to what he was saying and I'm thinking yeah why didn't we think about that and and this this relates to where the the RV park allowances within the A1 um amendment that we did and you can call to the the left of this this slide is where it's at right now which is under the permitted principal uses and the the resident had brought up that well you know his thoughts was it should be under this special exception use because then would have to go to the board of adjustment and going to the board of adjustment would require more public hearings with that and you know as he was talking I'm thinking about it yeah I mean why why not eror on the side of of more public input than less public input it made sense and so the next day uh when Nancy City attorney and I were talking about this we we were trying to understand why we didn't think about that it's like why didn't we think about that but looking at it I I guess we we kind of had an understanding that going through the Pud process was going to be a public process but it wasn't until we looked at it again to understand how I knew that it was going to come to a public hearing for Council what I guess I didn't know was there's actually two public hearings for the the Pud first one is through planning and zoning and then after they they recommend it on to council you would have to have a public hearing as well so in effect you're getting that those you know those two um public hearing for the public and and when you read the Pud if you had a chance to read that section uh in what we're changing you know it says that you have to go through the same public hearing process you do for resoning and so we are going to be notifying you know all the surrounding Property Owners so they they would know not only in planning but also for the city council process for the approval so again we we wanted to make sure that that you know you understood that there is going to be um a couple different points where the public can come in and say what they think about you know any proposed PUD development it doesn't need to go through that special exception at least from our perspective we don't need to go through that special exception provision there's any questions comments on that uh again I I think airing airing on the side of public input is a good thing to do so you could do that but understand if you put it in special exceptions you're just going to have three instead of two not bad but you know is it a practice you want to get into I I don't that's that's left up to you to decide that and so this this slide just basically goes into that and shows that you know you're going to have two public hearings so I won't dwell on that one so now we'll get on to the discussion about the the Pud so the first thing I wanted everyone to be clear on and understand is um as as we internally talked about where to put all these requirements for an RV park what we ultimately decided was we wanted to put it actually within the Pud code and so in understanding that the the amendment ordinance that you have is a lot longer than just creating a new section because we're amending the code and we're putting it in as I can't read it from here as M I believe or is that right M yes um in there and so this slide just shows you that you know you have the Pud and then we're inserting at a point the the code for the RV uh parks in the Pud and so it it's interfaces I guess You' say with the existing PUD code um there are some differences and and again that's why we wanted to spell out one one difference for example and I don't know if it's actually the next slide is not next slide but we'll get to it and I I'll point that out but the first part which is m uh Recreational Vehicle Parks and PUD districts uh the first section is the purpose and intent you know so we just wanted to spell out why why we're doing an recreational vehicle park in the p district um you know the entire Recreational Park shall be designed and laid out in a detailed master plan um the land which is developed shall be under a unified control and shall be plan developed as a whole so what what this is speaking about is we want to make sure that um you know we don't have someone coming in wanting to do this 30 acre PUD but they only own 15 Acres right it's only going to be on the Acres that's controlled so control could be you own it you could have it under a contract that you know is clearcut that that's what it's going to be I don't know if there's any other elements of control that you could have outside of those two but those are the two primary ways that they would have to indicate to us and and and actually if you go through the Pud process what they have to submit to us is evidence that either they own it or they have it under their control so this you could say is redundant but I think we wanted to be very clear that that we want to make sure that these things are are within the plan that we're going to get as we go to the RV park and then the last piece three year these standards are not intended to be all inclusive alternate designs may be considered that meet the intent of well organized Recreational Vehicle Parks and and I think and I'm going to ask Nancy on this one maybe to speak a little bit as as we go through the the rules and the regulations we have here the the benefit of a PUD is that they can provide an alternative to what these codes are and it fits within the council and I'm I've started you finished the Pud kind of provides the framework um but that um necessarily someone that wants to undergo a a process to have a recreational vehicle parking as a PUD has to hit every single one of those things exactly as Ed there's there's work that can be done let's say we say you have to have a trying to think maximum of 10 trees they may want six trees maybe we're okay with six trees yeah so there's there's work that can be done it's not a must fit you know it's not a a a square and just square hole kind of thing you can it can be worked together and work um to get to the as long as it means the intent of what's trying to be provided here so what is the process for getting six trees instead of 10 it would be them providing everything that need that's required for the codes bringing it to to the city the city working with them talking with them the normal the normal process to get approval and then it comes okay like any any other PUD any other PUD process this is just going to the only difference I mean there are some different requirements for this as we're going to go through but if you if you've ever seen the process for a um a planned unit development this is the same this is going to be for RV parks are those changes are those those go through the board of adjustment as variances and whatnot or is it separate that well no it's going to be it's going to the framework is going to be whatever ordinance you may draft um pass and you're going to keep within that framework so it's really going to be back and forth with the city int City meaning city staff and then it's going to come to you guys well it's going to it's going to go planning and zoning and it's going to come to you guys there's going to be two Public public hearings ultimately to to seek approval so it's going to go through that process it wouldn't necessarily be a variance from what you have your your you know within the process that again we maximum of 10 trees doesn't mean you have to have 10 trees let's we can work together and that's not not a good example but that's the first one that came to my mind so we're going to hear that a lot I promise you um but that will be through the process first with the city going back forth with City back and forth with the city staff then planning zoning and then UL you guys in in general if in using the tree as an example during the the early part so they they bring in the plan and we're going through it as staff and they say you know you're supposed to have 10 trees but you know you only have to have a a 5 in caliper tree right but all of our trees are 10 10inch caliper so we would like rather than have 10 we want eight and you look at that and say well you know the lot cover is about the same and the intent of the idea behind the the P process and so we would then you know put that forward as part of their plan they go through planning planning look at that and say yeah you know we went 10 and and so to get through planning they would have okay we'll agree to put 10 in there and then it could come here and you know they could make that case to you and say listen you know we wanted eight and here's why we wanted eight they want 10 but we'd rather have eight and something that you could then say okay yeah we understand eight so we we can we can the Planning and Zoning is a suggestion but we have the ability to change that suggestion yes yeah ultimately you as Council have that that final say in what it looks like now again you don't want to go back and say we don't want a trees right I mean you want because the the spirit of this is to have trees um so you need to least stay within the spere so at s very exhausting uh and and time consuming is there some way that we could streamline this that if if if it says have to have a uh maximum of 10 trees if up to 10 trees as opposed to 10 trees and that way if they want five they fall in that bracket so so I'm just I'm just I mean it just sounds where where the uh this this analogy breaks down is in the in the details yeah because you know we have um as we may see later on if you ask uh we we have a a code that details exactly what kind you know what type of trees how big you know all this this type of thing and so it would be handled there um and again I think what we would probably try to do is within the bounds that we as staff you know understand what what your goals are what planning's goals are try to you know make those adjustments already but when it gets there is something that we know is pretty acceptable to begin with and so we're we we use that story that planning has one idea you may have a different one what our goal is it be the same so there isn't that that type of difference there may be things that we don't think are are reasonable and we'd be able to tell you that so it it sounds very exhausting and time consuming but the reality is by the time it gets to planning and gets to you there's probably not going to be a lot of of issues you have to think through like that yeah but still going to be quite time consuming for the you know that that owner you know trying to go through the process again using the trees if if we change this and said they must have between five to 10 trees so anything in between we don't care as long as it's between five and 10 as opposed to 10 and then if they want eights coming back here or to planning and and going through the whole process I mean it's it's time consuming and and see I think I think that will be answered as we go through this when we see those different different areas and and you know maybe there's somewhere it says the maximum of 10 and we can talk about do we really want to say that do we want to say five to 10 do we want do we want to word Smith it differently so you're going to see some of these probably quite a few of them refer to some other code provision within the city like again Tre is bad example because there is a provision about trees and what you can and can't do with trees um so some of the some of the statements within this proposed wording will take you to some other code provision that will give you more definitive information and I will say and I'm I'm sure um Matt will agree the the person bringing this to you wants it approved they're going to do everything they can with staff ahead of time to find out what that what that means and they'll have the the outline from your PE ordinance of the things that you're looking for um and and you know they don't want to bring a project forward for you to go no so there you know there will be some work um but they usually they hire professionals as we've seen as they come here and have have helped with this process um that tell them this is what the city code wants this is how you can propose it to meet those requirements to help facilitate that process is there any other questions on the purpose and intent again we're just trying to make sure everyone knows what why we're doing we're doing what it's supposed to entail good there no changes no then the next section is the I can't say that word applicability thank you um so this say these standards shall apply to all new Recreational Vehicle Parks we don't have any new so obvious or don't have any existing so obviously new uh review in compliance with standard section shall be considered subject to the submittal requirements for PUD of This Land Development uh code and so again we're just referencing back to say that that this process is part of the Pud and everything that the Pud requires you to submit to us you have to submit and again there there's there are some things that may be applicable to this but there may be other parts that aren't um because again if you consider what a PUD covers you know a PUD could cover a very large residential condominium development that's going to have a different impact on the city that you know requires traffic analysis and and some maybe some environmental analysis where a a recreational park being in a more agricultural uh area may not require those things so there's some things that may be required some things may not be required but it's going to go based on what the Pud requirements are for that type of use um shall only be permitted we allowed by PUD classification shall not be permitted in any area found unsuitable for such development because of four undesirable drainage physical topography so characteristics Public Access or other features harmful to the public public health and this is kind of a general statement that you see in in a lot of code that says you as counselor the decision-making body has to take in a lot of different you know uh input into a decision to Grant a PUD or not again P boilerplate language you would see in this um compliance development of the recreational vehicle park shall be in conformance with the binding PUD master plan is finally approved and filed to the city any development use or density which fails to substantially conform shall constitute a violation of the section as well as other applicable city ordinances as May pertain so this is the warning to the developer that we're we're granting you know this development based upon what we've agreed to you've agreed to cities agreed to and you better follow it because you know if we we say for instance you're only allowed to have eight um sites per and you know when it's Spilled Out we find 10 sites per acre well you only get eight eight sites you can't have 10 and you can't say well let's built you no it's it's eight it's not 10 and then the last section there the Pud master plan may be subject to conditions of approval as determined by the city council and so this this basically says that there may be other things that Council may require that that you know is not contained within this this code that is going to be subject to that and you know an example the one that came to mind first I guess I'll use is you know there's there's going to be a a document that's signed between the RV park and the person running the space you may want to see that and so you may put a condition in there that this is going to be approved conditional Upon Us seeing whatever that document looks like and there may be other things that that again could come up through the land use process as we go through that that isn't contained within this code or any of the city codes that you might think is a very important aspect to address make sure it's part of the approval and usually on on the uh site plan if if you've seen site plans before that are approved there's a list of conditions you know again that that you know may be different than what the code says is there and again if you say that that um use density that you know in this particular case because they very large and you know we want to allow 10 instead of eight sites per per acre that may be a condition for approval or in another context if if the site isn't as uh you know vast and you say you know normally it's eight but you know because of the tightness of this you know we're only going to allow six that's the only way we'll approve this plan then that could be a condition for approval so again it just gives you that ability to put some other restrictions or or requests within the approval of the the Pud so on that c up there where shall not be permitted in an area found unsuitable for such development because of Po undesirable drainage who determines that oh I mean none of us up here has any of that knowledge or education I'm not sure if our building department is capable of doing that I mean here's something who has that say so that that's undesirable so so the the ultimate arbitrator of that is Council I mean you'll ultimately make that decision um you know you won't make that decision in the vacuum though I mean I think if if we have a concern of staff that that uh you know I'm trying to think uh you know there's a a soil type that that is all Wetland and you know it's it's deemed to be Wetland and they want to put you know all the development on on a a type of soil that is considered to be a wetland soil first off that probably wouldn't make it through Swift Mud right when they review it um but we probably you know would be able to flag that and saying listen you know first off we need an engineer to review that to make sure that that you know this you know what they're looking to do can be done on that and and that sometimes comes out when you're doing buildings more than than just a site prep um where we would say listen you need to provide us engineering review that you can put that piling in that area and get it to you know a solid bedrock and so they would have to you know provide engineering that would detail how what they're doing that would meet and make it a suitable use on that type of of soil so you would arbitrate that I guess to a certain degree based upon you know specific information provided by experts saying that that this is either doable or it isn't doable and and potentially you could have you know the developer saying this is what our engineer says you could have you know the city's engineer saying well this is what we believe and you may have to make a decision based upon that makes sense and just thinking forward obviously this we don't have any recreational vehicle park code now let's say that we were to Annex one in that wouldn't fall into it's existing so it wouldn't be new in that case I'm assum it's it's probably a grandfather type scenario whatever we we would have a code to police that at that point right or that's a good point it wouldn't Grand the grandfather is another term that we all kind of commonly use for legal nonconforming use the a legal non-conforming use is a use that within your code was legal you changed your code to make it not legal so if it's property that was never yours that kind of makes that analysis a little bit different so you you may if you're if you think there is an possibility of obtaining more land where this could be an issue you may want to word Smith and not put new all right that's in case you obtain an existing one but other other side of that if you obtain an existing one they're not going to start over right they're they're not gon to knock down and start over so that may you may want to leave this as new um so let me yes jump in there so so thinking about that the odds that we're going to be annexing agriculturally zoned land with a RV park is very slim so let's say we Annex a piece of property you know we're going to Zone it based upon what our land use plan is right so um if you you know some of some of the areas that are close to this building that are not um C in the city if we Annex them in it wouldn't be an A1 right it's going to be you know light industrial or it's going to be a commercial and so right now the only place you can put an RV park is in in A1 so when that comes into the city it's right away going to be a non-conforming use right but we can't do anything about it that's that's where you know the thought of grandfathering comes in is it's an accept it's a use that's allowed but it's not conforming to that so if they came in and said hey we want to expand this you know there's no way that they could expand it because it's not forming in that District and so what what would be you know I think the elements of you know making sure that they do what we want them to do in theirs is a different issue all together this this is development standards this isn't you know holding them you know related to zoning to you know these aspects of you know whether they have eight per acre or 10 per acre they'll have whatever they have and and we can't enforce that any differently than than anything else I mean it's just that's what they have and it would only be an issue when they tried to develop it either differently or expand it or what then it would fall under these provisions and the first first part of that is unless they're A1 they're not expanding it you you can't do that so to to police that in a different way you would have to have a different section of the code that talks about RV parks and you know we want to make sure that that you know they perform the way that they should perform it would be applicable to any any RV Park in the city so not not a land use issue it's more of a Code Enforcement issue right he good so then we get into the standards part so the first one is minimum lot requirements that are set forth in section 12758 which I've provided you the language um this this is an interesting section um because it kind of switches from minimum to maximum in different areas um another another possibly confusing part of this is uh it it also gets into the the maximum residential density which we allow for acre and and you should probably pick up really quick that that says 18 and in the in the RV park we talk about eight and and so they're apples and oranges really because the 18 is talking about dwelling units per acre the thought probably was never about RVs when when this was constructed it was about you know housing units um so it is different and we recognize that there's a lot of redundancy as well in this that that if you told us to clean it up I don't think we would be too too scared to do that I think it needs some it needs some work yeah you don't usually have a maximum density thrown in the middle of a section called minimum lot requirements since it's a maximum density requirement but address that yeah we have we have the field that we have to play with um but the important part of this really is that first sentence of a PUD zoning District shall include no less than five acres of contiguous land and shall be of such proportions as to properly accommodate all proposed uses in keeping with the general requirements of the city and established policies and objectives of the comprehensive plan that's the key sentence that you have to keep in mind with this and and the rest that again is a little bit redundant it kind of goes back on itself and reiterates that and then it gets into the maximum residential density which again is different and we spell it out differently within the uh the code for RV parks the other the other piece is though minimum 20% of the total Site Area less any areas devoted exclusively to non-residential uses shall be devoted to Common open space and recreational areas so there's another section and here it kind of goes back to what um this talks about in terms of open space that it needs to be 20% so those are the two pieces of minimum requirements that you really have to keep in mind as we go through the process I would ask that you clean that up thank you can do that and um we and Matt and I talked this morning and obviously right now the proposed language for 3A just says minimum lot requirements is set forth in 12758 E since right now 12758 is not the clearest piece of writing we could just specifically say in 3A minimum lot requirements and include the two Provisions Matt just pointed out since the other Provisions really don't apply because later in the the ordinance it talks about density and other things like that um so we could do we could the whole options you could leave it the way it is minimal M requirements set forth in section 12758 I could we could rewrite it for minimum lot requirements and pointing out the the no less than five acres provision and the minimum 20% of total Site Area provision and get rid of the rest of it or um what was my third option there's a third option in my head but now I've lost it leave it or change it those are the two things well there's only two options this here is is is General PUD language yes this doesn't have nothing to do with the the actual RV park no but what what the initial intent of including it was you want the the idea was that the to retain the first first provision about no less than five acres and then that last provision of a minimum of 20% retaining those as requirements within the RVP yes right so the other part really is not applicable here so it might it might be cleaner just to for the RV PUD to clearly state that I'll spell that out there instead of referencing inad referencing it back to something that ultim we're going to change we might as well we could just spell it out here um that for under the RV PUD we want minimum Lun requirements to be five five acre less than five acres and the 20% of total Site Area um that last provision and GE the rest of it and then separately we can fix that provision for the other P I think that answers one of Tom's questions before keep it simple for people you know let's not make it confusing and and difficult for them to to to do things so let's keep it simple and and clean it up well and I'm wondering by doing that are you creating like a spaghetti type code scenario where you're we're calling it out in in RV partk but this is this in general PUD maybe it should be actually fixed at that level so we don't have to well I I think that's the idea we're going to fix both um ultimately so we can we can put the specific requirements that we want to keep in the RB PUD section and this 17258 I'm sorry 12758 is from the general PUD language in your code and we're going to clean that up to make it more understandable and so at that point you would just be repeating it in the RV one you would if we unless we decide the the a good example let's say that down the road we we want to loosen that up it's not five acres as a minimum it's four right you'd be changing it into two places right right that's I guess that's a concern I have and the other part of that though is the the provision for non RB PUD you have the maximum density that needs to be addressed for that provision which may end up being the same may not so I think as we go we can kind of if if as you talk about the RV PUD if you within RV you shouldn't have any anything different from the um the overall standard unless you're unless you're deviating from that that's my point right well the the the overall PUD has certain requirements unrelated to RVs and we're making a new section for RVs that do have some different standards so they're going to be different now you may ultimately determine density is going to be the same so that might be the same number and that may allow us to to well dis is a perfect it say eight now it's 18 here so if we change let's say within after this conversation's over it's determined um that you want to move forward with the RVP UD and you want to put 18 as the maximum density for the RV PUD as well as leaving it for the the non RV PUD then maybe the we can leave it as um within the RVP just refer back to the other section and we just clean the other section up so they're going to be exactly the same you don't need to State them I agree with that right now they're a little bit different um so maybe that that question can be better answered once we get through this and see how what decision you guys make with the other language I hope that kind of yeah I I don't down Road as we had more puds or whatever that they they just restate what the general thing is we should be able fact have it here they refer to this section it's you know it's it's 20% it's it's these things um if you repeat there then you got change we you know obviously it's work to change stuff right so we better get it right first time so I think I think at this point not knowing what your decision will be regarding an RVP maximum density we can't answer that question if we need to have it stated in both places because right now it is different as proposed okay so and and just the muddy the water even more I'm going I'm going to make a prediction um that we're probably going to be revisiting the Pud code anyways as we go through the comprehensive land use Plan update I'm I'm going to guess that there's going to need to be changes to the Pud if if again if the public wants to increase density for instance um we're going to have to revisit the Pud and and so that's why I think you know when Nancy is suggesting maybe we just we make the change to clarify it within the standards for the the RV park is better because I know we're going to go back and change that and when we go back or if we go back and change say we're probably going to separate out that density from that section anyways and create another section for density so to make to make a change in now mean we'd be going back and changing it again which may contradict what what you have for this so makes sense yeah gotcha so we're gonna so we're clear we're going to make this specifically to those two sections in 172 58e regard regarding the size the acre Acres of contiguous land and then the 20% of total site for open space yeah this is going to be just for the RV parks yes yes oh this is my S maximum density layout so recreational vehicle park should have a maximum density of eight recreational vehicle spaces per gross acre the number of recreational vehicle units does not confer any vested residential development rights whatsoever now that last that last sentence is important based upon what our our code says now we we stole this like language from Crystal River and they had I mean the language is identical and their density for the number of RV spaces is identical to their residential density and so what they wanted to make sure of is that people are not going to make that conversion that oh an RV space is a residential space right so they put that language in there to say listen you know this is only for recreational vehicle units not residential units and so again that's why I'm not that concerned about that language in the section we just talked about for the density because we've just in this section kind of clarified that they're two different things that's talking about residential this is talking about recreational vehicle units um and and I know we kind of have this conversation what is the right density should it be eight should it be 18 should it be 156 you know what is that right number and and so what I did was I kind of went out there and found a few RV parks to to kind of give you what what that density looks like and now understand these are all different sizes um so it's going to look differently but just understand that they're all different sizes so if you want to hit the first one [Music] Ashley so this first one here is the Sun Coast RV park and it should be very familiar because it's just outside the city limits on us19 and so the the caveat to this information is this is what's readily available so if it's not correct don't hold me accountable for that um but this uh allegedly has 165 RV sites it's 8.96 acres and so that works out to whatever that number is there 18 18 per acre and so now what what you have to think of and and I placed at your desk is I think is the two or actually the one page sheet at the top it says CCO County Florida Land Development code travel trailer recreational parks and campgrounds and so I don't know the timing of this I'm only assuming um that this was either developed under these standards or some standard standards that the county had um so I just wanted to give you what what the county requires for their RV parks which you can see is not as spelled out as what ours ours would be in this but again the important part is so this this kind of gives you that density of what 18 per acre would look like so then no I didn't want to though because you you messed up the whole thing I'm sorry now now click on the next one so this one is Crystal Isles which is in Crystal Rivers I don't believe I don't believe this is the one that was the result or resulted after they adopted the uh the uh new code but interesting enough it kind of looks like it complies with what their code is though it may have been um but this one is 254 sites in a little bit uh spaced out a little more in between each of the uh the different uh sites then let's go back to the next one so I'll show you the propaganda that they put out so this is Orange Lake RV Resort in Citra Florida and so this this is kind of the layout they show that they're building um I don't know if all the phases been built on this and the next one I'm going to show you is oops now see I just did it Okay now click on the next one so this is the aerial that um looks like this one whenever uh Google Earth did this they're still in construction but even with that case you can kind of see how it's going to lay out with each of those uh slanty areas there um on the right side is where the the trail spaces are going or the RV spaces are going to be I just want you to notice there's a worm farm there's what there's a worm farm oh really yeah so it says worm farm oh somewhere along there there is one yes just thought i' point that out this one didn't have the the toy on it unfortunately but it's somewhere I it's it's if I'm not mistaken this one is 140 acres in total because it was like three and a half acre it has to be humongous property so it ends up being like three and a half I think or three three per acre is what it comes out to be no it's the next one is that this this I think was like four or five maybe per per acre it came out but it's it's pretty large and then the last one that one yeah let's do the propaganda first this is Nature's Resort again not too far from here and go back and show you the aerial of this one click on the last one thank you so this one is is 297 sites over 97 acres and that works out to about three sites per acre but the reality is there there's it's probably 297 sites over about 40 acres um they own a lot of the land surrounding where the development or the develop sites are so they're able to include that as their acreage lot wets there that AR buildable I bet so so that that adds to the yeah I mean I would I would guess that's the case just looking at especially if you look to the kind of the left side there a lot of that's probably going to be Wetland the point the point of these really is just to give you a sense of density when we're speaking about 8 18 20 whatever uh it kind of tells you what what what you can expect and again any developments you know you look at all all the developments are different and so you have no idea what's going to be coming into to you um they're going to look different but you can kind of feel how how the density numbers are it's really relative to what the acreage is you know you have lakes you have Wetlands so it's I mean like if you have a lake or a river or something like that that included in the acreage and it pushes it into more dense so I mean if it was all flat land it would be more space between it so it's yeah I yeah I get that then before we begin discussion on that I just wanted to go over the the second part of that which is as Park models known as park trailers find has set forth in section 320.00 one 1 B7 Florida Statutes are expressly prohibited so you may wonder what what what that definition is you could click on that bottom one there I like pictures good so I I give you what that definition is um from the uh State Statute uh but what you can see is the the difference between this and an RV or will really is the way that that you know these come on a trailer and they're generally dropped off where an RV comes with wheels attached you don't drop the wheels off and a fifth wheel attached you don't drop the wheels off that really is the big difference is the ability to to take it off of the trailer and set it down onto uh the ground and leave it there for a period of time so it's a tiny home that's another name yeah I this is like what goes into a mobile home park as opposed to RV park I and the picture on the right is a is not a Park trailer that's a that's a reg RV that's a Park trailer that's a park what saying you can take the wheels off if you if you if you look very closely at that one and the only reason I know that this is Ina one although it may not look like it is the story it goes along with it about it being stolen and all that but so story um if you look very closely at it you can see it's a trailer that it's it's sitting on not oh not part of it yeah not part of it's not yeah it's not kind yes again I think all part of the story with that one is it was stolen and they couldn't figure out how it was stolen how they how they got it out and put it on the trailer and all that without someone seeing it but but again I think the reason that that you would you know not allow these is that you know the the expectation of an RV park is that it's a transient housing and they're not going to be there for a lengthy time um now well I I won't go any further than that I don't know if you want to talk about that piece or go back to the the density but they're both there and I know we need to have this hatched out to be able to go on to the next next piece okay so as I stated before on a density eight seems a little anemic to me I think we could expand that I did a little investigating on that um motor home park mobile home park they require 5,000 sare foot per year that's about eight per acre if you just do the ma but that's a different size deal than what these trailers are and they need or these motor homes are and they need to be able to negotiate the turns and drive through there they're long Vehicles they're 45 ft you know if you drive it they're 8 and a half ft wide but if you look at just the math on that just allow for you know side side things that roll out hit your button the side panels that roll out you're going to need some side uh space on there but you know if you look at, 1500 square foot as opposed to 5,000 sare foot I was just doing some some round numbers here um you know you could end up you could end up in the in the 18 to 20 space pretty easy and not really have that feel like that's density I think you had an 18 as an example up there which was real similar believe but I but I think you know if you compare eight per acre on a mobile home park versus a per acre on a RV Park uh there is a big discrepancy there and I think you could actually handle a little more capacity in there because you know you're you're allowing for all that other stuff these things have to negotiate the turns they're long Vehicles especially if you got an RV Towing uh tow behind Jeep or something like that a lot of them do that so uh I I'd be inclined to move that number up a little bit yeah I think what I'd read is it kind of the standard range is 10 to 15 is what they kind of The Sweet Spot um so when when this was originally written by the city how do they what was the purpose of having eight so that was a regular density right for the so um in talking with Chris River about that they they kind of went through the same struggle that we went through is what is the right and like us when you they looked around at what all the different codes out there should you know are model codes would have and and it ranges right all over the place and they they wanted like you know us to a certain degree wanted a a number that they could go back on and say this is why we chose this and in their PUD the density is eight residential units per acre um and so again that goes back to why it said earlier that you know because those numbers were the same but they're two different meanings behind them they put this doesn't confer any residential development rights um so they they ended up choosing what was already the density for residential housing be able to tie back to it um we we looked at I thought about it you know again I I put eight in as a placeholder because I didn't know where you would end up um I didn't think that you know going any smaller would make much sense because then you really wouldn't probably have the the the density for it to be worth developing um but I didn't know what the right number would be with that being said let me say there there is another law out there though that does say what the maximum density is and that's in the the figure one that has chapter 64 e-15 Flor Administrative Code mobile home lodging Recreational Vehicle Parks if you go to the second page towards the middle this would be uh 2 B3 Recreational Vehicle Parks um where it says the density shall not exceed 25 recreational vehicle units per acre of grow site so the maximum that would be allowed I mean you could say I want on there but related to the state code that would not go over and and ultimately this is going to have to go through the review by the health department and this is what the health department would be going by so your range is anywhere from zero to 25 and not over that and again the pictures that that I put in there just I wanted you to kind of feel what the different densities look like so you could understand what eight looks like and what you know more look like the density is for I don't I I think the proper word is gross acreage correct um irrespective of what's on that acreage flakes Rivers swamp land um you know mangroves I'm sorry worm farms worm farms thank you I didn't know you needed a farm for a worm okay you learned something every day all right um anyway go bye um density A1 what it's A1 um so you could have 50 acres of land and only have 10 acres of usable property and they can put if if we do the 18 as you had suggested they're going to be on top of one another with slides and our police or fire are not going to be able to I didn't suggest 18 but what 18 is what we have in our code now for residential okay and remember there's also way we're going to get to there setback requirements there other requirements that they're going to have to still adhere to I see so that can help them not be on so that's it's kind of like hard to say units because of the each well we only have the one the two areas that are A1 and I understand that but if we should acquire new land this code is is being written for the general purpose um so it's kind of hard it's very yeah very hard to put a number in there because depending on the layout and all that you you could end up with a mess so a followup question to that so let's say let's say we make it 18 just keep it saying kind like today we make it 18 and uh this particular A1 Property like said is it has five acres and four acres or lake so we're talking about one acre so they're going to put um 18 Time 5 whatever that is um it's going to be very compact when we see that site plan at that point if they're within the restrictions of the the Pud they have the 18 based on you know the layout whatnot but we look at that as man if they're on top of each other do we have the ability to say no we don't like that density because it's the way that the land is well isn't the master plan going to address that I think I think that's what what he's asking if if if our our code says you can have a maximum density of 18 vehicles per gross acre and they come to us and the way they're land is configure they're on top of each other and you don't care for it right can you can you do something with that um because we don't have to approve the let me development right can can can I ask another question on this piece of paper that you gave us mat um regarding what you just said um three whatever y um Recreational Vehicle Parks the minimum size and location of each recreational vehicle space constructed or develop after the effective date shall be a it says each recreational vehicle space shall contain a minimum of 1200 square fet instead of putting a maximum number of vehicles per acre I might say can we put that as the requir a minimum number of square feet per space I actually like that idea better than saying okay we're gonna allow 12 units on here but there's three rivers in the property and then oh now they're all on I'm big on RV and I love you know sites that have ample space well to that example both of you I did the math on that too and if you do look at it per acre I use 1300 which is is real close to this number and that's 33 per acre but the master plan once they lay it out they go okay you got 20 acres and five of it is a water that you can't build on and then maybe you have some other stuff ultimately it dials it back by default doesn't it once the if we settle on a number and then that number is used to try to site plan that's what the next step would be is the owner would try to basically lay out a plan all those plans don't come to us for I mean I mean like like um the Washington Street I mean those things changed those plans changed as and that did not come to council right it went by whatever whatever was written but if we write something here that's a guideline and then that guideline is used for the engineer the planner the Civil Guy come out lay out the site e comes to our building code say Hey you know this isn't really going to work you know they're going to have restraints automatically because it's not going to handle the flow of the roads and curves and the unusable space on the ground uh does it does it allow us to focus on what that number is and just pick a number ultimately it's going to be less than that because the default is the master plan is going to kind of limit the factors of what they can or cannot build so I'm I'm breaking one of my rules that I I had in my mind tonight which is I'm not going from a slide until we all agree what that slide says but I was I just want to go forward real quick and and it's to this slide here where it talks about the dimensional standards so that's what you're bringing up is the dimensional standards and so the way that that was kind of handled in this is each recreational vehicle space shall be a minimum width and depth to accommodate both recreational vehicle unit and the tow vehicle and so it was it was then then you have the side setbacks that kind of overlay that and so the the intention there is so they the developer can come in with a plan that you can look at and say yep that that meets the characteristics of of what we expect without saying specifically it has to be 12200 ft it maybe 1150 FTS better than 12200 ft or, 1300 FTS better than than 1,000 feet and so it allows the developer to come in make you know what they want and you can say no that's that's not going to work but understand that that these are actually two different concepts because you could have a large enough space that you could have 1300 square feet and and still have you know 20 20 units per acre right so that's that's why you got to look at the dimensional space differently from the the the maximum density what you could if you just say well you can have as many unit spaces as you want as long as you only you know have 1200 square foot of of unit space and that could work out to be in again up to the max 25 and you may not want that so they're two different issues to get into so so go back to my question on on say we a site plan and before we answer that I don't like the metric here for obvious reasons right it could be a five acre tract it could be all five acres of develop and they're spread out well or they're compacted based on there's only four acres that or one ACR is usable so it's that it doesn't make sense to and I was going to interrupt you as you're all talking it seems to me that part of the issue is the way it's written say gross acreage because you don't you're I mean obviously that's a way to to measure it you know exactly what the property is but the part of the issue with how many for your density question is well what's that what's that going to mean depending on a lot is it is there some other term that would Encompass I'm trying and I'm I'm sitting here I can't think of a way to do it um if it's all developable develop there's no lakes and yeah yeah it's all buildable thank you um is it one metric if it's you know um has the pond or a lake or there's Wetlands that make it not all develop I can't say that you can't build you can't build all of it is there a different metric and I don't sitting here and I can't craft you know perfect language to tell you but that might be something to think about too to kind of give you may not like that idea well I'm just I'm thinking later on in in the section you know where we talk about the open space requirements so if if you get into you know um you know do you you would you would subtract out of the developable land that space as well yeah so so it just it creates potentially you know a two-step process where you take the portal back out the nonb buildable now you have the remaining buildable and then subtract the green space and Roads then you've got what's you know where you can park right maybe maybe we can put um I'm not to probably do some research on this I didn't it just popped in my head um some some more limiting language let's just use eight because it's here I mean you can obviously change the number but um saying that you the part shall have a maximum density of eight so you know they're not going to go over that number um but maybe some qualifying you know PR gross acre but has some qualifying language of um they capture what you're concerned about you know unless unless it's trying to think the boards that you could use this um you know once that other other land that you can't build on is removed it become I'm trying I'm trying to think out loud it's not working but to qualify it it gives you gives you Council and City staff more yet yes our maximum is eight but because your piece of property really is only you can only build on this small portion you're going to be on top of each other so we're not going to let you get to eight but you have language within your your code to let that that ability to to not let them go to eight there it's captured if that makes sense to to qualify your ability to say you can't do eight based on your makeup of by Thea by having those setbacks aren't we a and green space doesn't it automatically Force to a buildable number yeah I don't think you need a number here that's what my point is yeah oh that's a yeah I mean you're I've ever seen a code about a density number um I don't know I don't know that's what I'd have to I'd have to look at that maybe put a maximum on there and then yeah because you're right it's part of it is it's going to with the with setbacks and other the other requirements that we we went to real quick there it's going to also limit how many RVs can be on top of each other you're going Road or you can't park them in the bathroom or there's other things that are going to kind of Squish the amount of buildable Space by default and if we don't have that number but we we control it with the appropriate setbacks and whatnot and the number just kind of falls out based on the site plan at that point can we look the side plan say these are too close together it because this is too many people you know we can't get fire truck here whatever thees are I don't I don't know I've never seen a a code like we're talking about without density being addressed I don't know if that's something that we want to do so that's something I have to think about and look into with the density numbers in there let's say we let's say we keep it at to 18 like the rest of the stuff is maximum of 18 maximum of 18 so get example same question you have your maximum but they when they come in with their site plan and there's it has the 18 but we the circle it won't be because the setbacks will take come into effect so they won't be on top of each other you'll still have the setbacks right so it's kind of a circular question um I think the your question is forget the setbacks if it's we allow 18 but ultimately that what you see you don't like is 18 and you want to say have 10% and that's why I I I would be more com aable if you had some language that that noted you have that ability to limit that and I can't articulate the best language right now to put in there um but I can come up with that okay so so this this is I think an example of what what you're saying and and the impact of it so the reason that they have kind of those PODS of development is because a lot of the land you can't build on and so what happens is they they may have 97 Acres but like I said it really the development is on a lot less than 97 Acres if you look at that one right in the center there that those those RV spots right if you were to expand that out into an acre and just duplicate all that it's way more than three yeah rer yeah yeah under those trees there's a whole bunch of spots my there probably are yeah they're under those trees but I guess my my point in what I'm saying is when when you look at the gross site gross acreage site and and the density even though you have what you think are other controls like you know the space and the setbacks as it gets larger you you can manipulate those numbers to make it look different right and and so in in a large track development say you're you're not rewarding someone to have a large development a lot of extra land but I think you would be punishing them um maybe not the right word but that's where I'm going to use you're punishing them because they have a lot of land if if you took the density piece out of it because then it starts becoming you know does the the the you know the square footage timately have to build in for each one based upon the law lines and everything else um maybe more constricting to what their development is going to be and and so I think putting a density maximum density in there is is one that allows you to control ultimately what those Pockets look like right more so than what it looks like spread out across the the the acreage because again that's what's going to happen is that they're going to put them on the land that they can put them on right they're not going to put them if if there was a lake there they're not going to put them on the lake because they would sink and I couldn't sell them for or run them for very much um so I I think density is is a control but it's also you know that's not what's going to really drive the train it's going to be the setbacks that are going to drive the of of the look of the of the AR part yeah I mean the density piece is going to be impacting again those areas where you can develop it how many they're going to be able to put in those areas um and and again understanding that that you know every every as you can see all those are different you know if you go back if you go to the the fourth slide there in the fourth one from the left yeah when there I mean this this they're they're using every every spot that they can use that looks like a park I don't want and and I think we all would look at that and say that's not what we want right um but so I think you do need to have that that maximum number and again understanding that that most likely the the site conditions are going to be such that they're probably not going to be able to do that maximum number anyways set yeah so yeah so I mean eight to me is is and again it's anemic I mean we should air on a side of caution actually increasing that um and then you know because even even with eight if you've got you got five acres and you only got a quarter acre you know if you put eight on a quarter acre that's the only thing that's that's too dense so I don't think whatever number we choose here it just depends on the layout of the property so you know if if we improve the site plan later on we have the ability to say no this is way too dense based on your particular layout but we don't want to get punish we don't make it too restrictive to where you've got five acres and you got they're all really spread out so because at the end of day it's a math problem to be able to do these developments right you got to make money otherwise it didn't make sense so using this as an example Nancy if I don't remember the boundaries of this can you go back one slide Ash please so really is is a lot of land anchor like three and a half that's probably not showing 140 it's not showing 140 Acres yeah so using that example what you're saying can we this plan was brought to us and it's only three and a half per acre but the rest of the property is not usable because it's wetlands and so on and so forth can we go and say no we're not we're not um approving this because we don't want that right and that's what that is that your question that was the question so I think I think the best way to address that is to have some kind of language within there that the maximum is again I'll use eight a tier eight some kind of qualifying language and then I'm gonna have to work on that to our perview to be able to or not see because you don't want it you know you want it subject to approval or subject to what they need to know they need to know the developer looking at it needs to go oh it's eight okay and here's my setbacks and here's how I can do this and and they see how they can make it work for everything we have in your code and then they can still come here and be told no we don't like it we had to be really careful with something like that right um so we want to make sure it's noted that yes heer this is the maximum density we have all of our setbacks but there there still may be um some pullback from city council but I need I need to work on the language and make sure we I still think the setbacks are really what's going to drive the trade of of of what it's going to look like so yeah because like you said if you if if like looking at the other side you looked at where it's all kind of looks like it's in one section they can't be on top of each other it's going to limit how many they can build thank you so with that in mind then what number do we want to land on I think I've just been looking at cities all over Florida around our area that kind of are within the same size some of them are a little bigger seems like the average is 10 not saying that we should have that but it looks like the average is between 10 and 15 yeah that's what I found as well um so maybe we should say okay 10 because if the land is completely developed I mean 10 per acre isn't that bad it isn't very dense um I mean I I'd even go right in the middle of that rain say 12 would be a good number [Music] and again if we have the ability to say the 12 based on this site plan you know you don't have a whole lot of room for 12 bre because they're all packed into this little area if we have the ability to dial that back and say well in your particular case we'd like to see 10 just because your the way your lot is but again I want I don't want to be too restrictive so that when they do have all that it's they're forced into have it very sparse RV park could we have between 10 to 15 could we have that Max one number some of them say 12 one of them was 11 13 so one acre is 28t by 208 ft CU I didn't one acre to me is you know I have to I so I did 43,000 Square ft oh it doesn't help me 208 ft by 208 ft if I if I could um would be would you guys be opposed to letting the public speak I know we've got some expert in this you guys could you guys comment on on density your experience are you asking me to comment on oh I'm sorrya right now it's 8301 Congress um you're asking me to comment on how many sites are in a group per acre What In your experience I guess what uh I mean we see that 10 to 15 is kind of the range some some being less more sure so I guess um on an average site it's usually like a nice RV park they're they're usually there's a lot of open space so I think if you pick 10 or 12 or even I mean eight is a little low but it would still work uh because the sites are 20 25 by however long you know you still have to have a maximum of 1,200 uh square foot of living space for the Department of Health in Florida so there's certain codes that we have to follow or that the developers do they do this all the time that's what they're telling us so in this particular property doesn't really it doesn't really matter if you pick 10 or 12 it's already determined B on that put in your setbacks yeah well the only thing obviously if we if we do pick a number that's lower than than that then you they have to change that and they have to spread out I think it goes back to what I said before exactly what you said the 1200 I didn't realize that the 1,200 square foot is the it's it's a it's the Florida Health Department that's the minimum require the lot size thought it said 13 conforming anyway but they need like we talking lakes and like that like the RV has to be on 1200 minimum that's correct so that's basically the answer right there right no matter what like if you pick if you pick too high it doesn't really matter well no yeah if you pick too low though it does matter if you pick too low that matters that that's important to us but if you pick too high it really doesn't matter we still have to follow those ordinances that's what I was saying the the bigger the number that doesn't mean they're going to go to it but this they can't go to it so it's not going to hurt anything to have it that way because you're going to you're always going to fall back we have we're going to have other controls in there with the setbacks I think the square foot the minimum I think is is I mean that's Flor law anyway so I think we can make it 1,200 or go to 13 or whatever I mean but I mean but we we have that as well so it's going to be no less than that so okay so what was your square foot on the acre do the math David I I did the math on 1300 and it was 33 per okay but if we have setbacks I mean I just did The Divide okay simple division but if you're going to have setbacks it's going to knock that number down so knock that in half and you're at what streets and stuff like that take that you know 15 18 you're right in that ballpark okay and setbacks are going to hold them uh to build within those [Music] confinements I 15 then because it I mean basically it's up to the Florida Department of Health so 15 to 18 i' rather stay with 15 15 sounds good to me I mean I don't want to go any higher than that at all 15 sounds [Music] good okay if I take the 12200 into that number it's about 36 per acre but that's all jammed up on flat didn't like that's a parking lot yeah so divide that by two what are you 18 you're back at 18 you're right in the ball park yeah but that but that doesn't take into consideration the roads and stuff like that so yeah yeah okay gotcha perfect gotcha there we go M and you're okay with uh prohibiting the park models yes yes yes sorry I [Music] was next section uh all Recreation Spa vehicle space have a concrete pad or constructed of an adequate base grad in surface to faidate drainage and reduce dust as approved by the city individual recreational vehicle space shall have access from internal roadways shall not have direct access from adjoining public rideways um and each recreational vehicle space shall be marked and numbered for identification I don't think they're I guess a discussion Point could be number three um number four uh again I think this is something that most likely in in the areas of the city wouldn't be an issue but you definitely don't want you know the ability of just to back out you know street without you know proper proper uh access and warning for that so I think it's pretty self-explanatory of that I like all three of okay yep we do setback right oh it's just F you're not there yet number six dimensional standards each recreational vehicle space shall be at minimum width and depth to accommodate both recreational vehicle unit and the tow vehicle where Dimension dimensional standards are not specified approved PUD master plan recreational vehicle spaces and other amenities area shall be designated to meet the following minimum setback standards so so this is you need to think of this in in kind of a two-step right is they're going to be designing you know who whoever does this will be designing it based upon what all the requirements are so as we heard and and what I provided to you the state of of Florida says you have to build certain dimensional uh standards into this and so that's what they'll be putting in there and so if they weren't doing that you would be then saying all these uh numbers have to be in there but it's probably already going to be taken care of based upon what uh the state says so this is two steps if they don't have that dimensional standard already approved in the master plan so what they bring to you um they would have to follow this and so you know I I did not have the capability or ability to give you a diagram that kind of shows you these Dimensions so we laid it out here in the council chambers for you um so uh if you look straight out in the seating area where everyone's seting they're actually in our r v um that's a space of about 142 ft which is an average of a RV with you know this the yes could be larger could be smaller but the average was 14 and a half feet um and so right where the line is right there is is that if you look at the what this says for the minimum sideline you go 5T out and so that last row of chairs inside there is the 5 foot Mark so that would be again based upon this what what that RV site would look like so there would be a five foot in between the chairs that would be to the next the next site yeah so this this would be one RV site now it it could be different the way that that they lay it out terrible but under this that with the slides the middle section yep is RV with slides open yep with slides open all the chairs were the GU and that's the chair is the is the the neighbor is the neighbor or the property line that's the neighbors's partk RV so there 5 foot Gap in between there so they could hold hands no no no so where the inside of the chairs are uhuh that is the 5 foot Mark so that's the 5 foot RV has to be 5 foot with the slides out yeah so so be 10 foot in between them yeah so here this this set of blue markings in the middle here so that's 10 ft okay so that would be the distance according to the minimum sideline of where the slide the edge of the so if you looked at this so This set would be over here on this side and then the next one would be to the left of that that next that last blue uh piece of tape so this would be what's in between the slides of the the sides of the um RVs I didn't have the expense account to actually either get an RV in here two RVs or do Mo up of them we talked about it but we didn't have cardboard so I wonder if we could get their opinion on that I I don't have no clude what a particular didn't know you were G to be answering questions did you Diego FR um 8301 Congress so I'm not sure what I'm asking or answering the with the space between RVs okay so 14 ft on a u most fifth wheels that nice F fifth wheels that you see are going to be roughly 2 foot if there's a slide on both sides it's 2 feet on both sides so 4 feet plus eight um that's the general when you're looking um at 14 or you're getting into some bigger bigger buses and stuff so it they do get they do get bigger but it's the distance between is so if you had two come in together and what's normally that the space between the sites what we see typically is sites that are 20 20 wide by like 55 or 60 and then there's wider ones for the bigger buses 30 uh and and and and bigger so it it depends on how you lay them out and you know obviously the more the tighter they are the more you're going to get in there but it's not as desirable it doesn't you know so it it it's not Lisa again at 8301 so the average like a nice um I'm going to say like a KOA a nice they're they're 25 wide uh and then links vary depending on they have ones for shorter campers for longer campers but 25 25 is actually a really nice so basically you can park your rig with your slides out and then you can park your vehicle right next to it um and you know the other person is there but you you have a a whole camper with in between you and the next person so they vary because don't want to have a 30 by 60 site that you have a tent on taking up that real estate when you know a bus's in and they're all all the RV site you know the big sites are taken so you have a mix so um to accommodate thanks so so again using our exaggerated RV here um you know you would have a spot that's it's effectively 24 foot wide and so that's kind of in that 25 foot range that he just talked about and so there would be room on both sides and under this code a minimum five feet which again if if we're talking the exaggerated size which is 146 you would be you know the 5 ft approximately 5T which gives you the the 10 feet five yes each unit has five yeah so right yeah that's that's the distance that would be between the units the units with the pull with the pulled out Slide the slide ends at the Blue Line each side oh yeah so the slides it ends at this side and that side over there gotcha so this would be what's in between right so you have a minimum if you took a tape measure from the side of the RV on one lot to the other you'd have a minimum of 10 foot between foot okay and again that that is a minimum requirement and what you know they suggested is you know that's going to change based upon you know the area in the park and you know what if they want a larger a larger unit they're going to want 30 and and again I don't know what a a really large unit side to side really is but probably not much more than 14 foot so got to be on the road so can we ask Mr do you have any input in to these you have any any suggestions ideas or no basically what Matt saying about the setbacks is the same thing you have in a house when you just look at each lot as an individual house so your house is say 40 foot wide and you got five foot setbacks on each side each lot's going to have that giving you that 10 foot in the middle so I agree with that okay I mean I think the five foot is is fine yeah what you look at compared to each unit it's really a c right yeah so what you all have here is is good now we're just talking about sidelines right yeah just the sidelines and again you know I think the rear line and and the front setback again are going to be a function of of how they lay it out um so I don't think that it would would be contrary to what most most are doing anyways for the you know from the road to where you know they would be parking this now the question and it came up previously when we've talked about this is for the Waterfront jurisdiction in Wetlands well before you jump that I'd like to talk more about the setback off the road the internal road line because it's 10 foot here and if you take the gap between those chairs which this 10 foot here so you're G have to have that much space off of the road which seems to be a lot to me I think five foot there as well is is plenty you got to turn yeah that needs to be for for you can't drive no that has to do with the road this is I mean if if you have to drive on a campsite it's got a problem with the road anyway this is just from your where your campsite is you have to have 10 foot off of the off the road you have to turn off the road into the campsite this is on this is not on the road on on the driveway of the of the campsite there's a road that you have to get to your campsite into campsite yes and you what the setback is is you have to be 10 foot off of the road right yeah so the rear the rear or the front and on how they they look at it has to be 10 foot from the line of the road so that would be the road so rather you're right up on the road or you're 10 foot back from it you're not on the road the road has to be wide enough to accommodate turning yeah when you when I turn down on green seat I don't drive on the corner block I stay on the road I think 10 foot is is appropriate I think we I don't think any any no when you park your car in your driveway you stay 10 foot off the road yeah as a matter of fact I'm back up to the garage you got to think that some people are Towing their like my uncle and Aunt when they come down they have their Jeep on the back with a trailer on it what if they need right but I mean you're you're you're you're parking space for your house I mean I but this is not a house this that's a stationary object sure yes we have experts here you guys want comment on that for a 12 1200 square I mean if you're you're going to follow the minimums that they're they're talking about here 1,200 square foot that's going to equate to a length right I mean what's what's the length and width on that it varies so varies would be 50 to 60 is what what seems to be typical in most uh newer RV parks and what's what is the length 10 feet does see in my opinion 10 feet does seem you're going to be at 10 ft the road itself which is going to have to be big enough to accommodate you know swinging around corners if on a corner it's going to be a wide section of the road so that you can stay on the road in order to navigate the corner but then another 10 ft so you know the road is is most likely going to be 15 ft so you know that that's a lot of real estate so just diens dimensionally get 12200 square feet you're going to have length by width the what what's the average length of a 1,200 square foot unit uh I I was going to put the onus on you to do the math so I didn't have to do it typically what we see is is I mean you you typically it's a 45 ft TI wheel so you're going to you're going to want 50 feet is going to be is going to be pushing it you know you're going to need you have the vehicle the tow vehicle as well as the so the obviously the tow vehicle is going to have to be put on the side in a in a case like that um that's where you you know you're really looking towards the 55 to 60 foot length sights but or make that for a smaller trailer you know a a smaller a smaller coach uh to fit a row of smaller you know a row small smaller Ro so I guess when when I go to a campground and you see the fifth wheel stuff back in there their sites right they unhook and a lot of times they they'll take the the truck they'll go get groceries whatever they come back and they they park right in front unless it's a really big one and they kind of angle it or whatever but I mean they're not 10t off the road and like when I well the vehicle that's when I'm talking about the parked the the vehicle that comes in and out well that's that's I'm talk question the vehicle for B park right up against the road this is the RV vehicle not not not tra yeah I mean I I think they're one and the same in this context so so what you're looking back is the setback is for either the trailer or the vehicle buing trailer so when I back in with the fifth whe I'm back in my spot 10 foot off the back of the his face I have to Le 10 foot in front of my bumper so you got 20 foot well this ISS 5 foot rear rear is five it's the third fourth column oh pull through I'm sorry got 10 five so five So it's 15 so five foot off the back and you get 10 foot I'm just saying like when I when I pull in my driveway um and I I pull up and I have somebody else come over they park behind me you know I'm still you know you don't want to be parked right on the road but you don't need to be 10 foot off the road either that's why I think 5 foot is probably better number there it's same way in the back right and let see the back back in there's be space so back in space could technically have a road on out of so in that scenario you're 5 foot off that road just because the back set back it's back in space they have like a pull through either side so the main 5 foot front and back off the road line is is adequate I don't know why we get 10 foot there because I think that's appropriate why is it appropriate I agree he got it all he got he got it from the other did you just come up with that number Matt or this this is based upon the uh Crystal River and they had eight no not all of them did not have eight hour I'm saying again these are numbers that they came up with they had eight in their maximum density so that doesn't mean that there's some magic thing about 10 I'm just saying practically do we need to be 10 foot off the road and I I don't think you do why do we need if I'd be happy to hear entertaining ideas of why we need to have 10 foot space off the road do you guys need space on either side of the road for us yeah for apparatus I mean we need need that the width of the road for the apparatus itself but then if we're bringing other apparatus in aerial trucks it's on it's on um you have to have room for for out riggers to come out as well I was just messaging Tom the width of the fire trucks do you know off top of the head what they are uh no but looking at um NFPA pardon me for this car I think it's $ 1194 so there's two things that reference these um Parks um it's NFPA 1 you got it's uh there's there's three things that govern this from a fire perspective it's NFPA 1 NFPA 1194 and Florida statue 69-42 um most of these set setbacks going through NFPA and again just browsing through NFPA as we're talking here all reference 10 foot 10 foot 10 foot um nothing references from the road 10 foot but all other you know uh for instance here it says that um uh the minimum width of recreational vehicles and camping ground roads designed to accommodate all types of size of camping unit shall be 10 feet per traffic lane and 8 feet per parasol parking Lane is that flid statute or what that's nfda 1194 what does that mean the National Fire protect that's the fire code that when they put a site plan in front of us that we would reference so what you're saying is that you have to have what was the number again so it says the minimum width of recreational vehicle Park and Campground roads designed to accommodate all types and sizes of camping units shall be 10t per traffic lane this is Road and per parcel parking Lan parall excuse me parallel parking Lane so the road's got to be if you're going to have two lanes it's got to be 20 wide you're going to have a going and coming Lane what's our what's our road in here well it depends there's if it's one one way I 15 yeah which speaks to 10 yeah so again so the NPA normally sets a standard like right at and then allows the cities to go that all right so our roads are going to be 15 it's 15 in should be 50 oh yeah that needs to be changed it's right here right line wi missing that's why I got a big circle around it I think it's 15ot in width it's again is not inches there well and then and then a two lane I think it was 24 right 24 ft right but again we're not talking about the road we're talking about we're talking about off the road but the floor the fire says 8ot right about parallel parking what was that about that's if you're parking road yeah that's for parallel parking that the um the per traffic lane and 8 feet per parallel parking Lane if they're parking along the road if they're parking along the road yeah we don't allow that this and this that's on the road this is going to be on grass well you guys have mentioned in the code says do that correct or wrong but the they have to accommodate the parking for the the tow vehicle in the square [Music] right I'm still good with either eight or 10 I'm not good with five eight fine would be I guess if we got I mean 10 seems like a lot only two foot it's this big ER two foot again I don't know if I was put RV park there and I was and I was hamstrung by a 10 foot thing you know it's it looks like the average is 5 foot for what I've been looking at so there you go I'm going with the fire not with National Fire well that's National Fire Safety Code that's not talking about that's talking about parallel alongside the road this is not that you're pulling in this is to the road of the this is like your driveway off the road is what it is car coming in out not the radway itself but it's setback in other words setback so in other words you cannot park within 10 feet of the road is what it's saying which is a lot yeah look like I that's a lot I don't have a problem with the car being there I have a problem with an RV being that close cuz where are you going to park all these vehicles well where you going to park them you get you got the slides pulled out where are you parking parking as well right so [Music] well but if you look at the pull through a lot of these Parks they have a lane behind and a lane forward and they don't have them at a 90 they have them at a 45 because these vehicles don't turn right I saw that on the pictures as as well but on a pull through there's no setback on the rear line but there's a 10 on the front but technically that rear line is just like the front line so it doesn't make sense there you could be right up against the road right you're back in and a back in space you do need the so because I I think the way that I would interpret that minimum rear line for pull through space yeah why they don't have that is because either side of a pull through I mean it indicates that it's on a road both sides so your setback would be 10 foot because the rear would be considered the front as [Music] well okay so the tin would go all right it says from the edge of the internal roadway line maybe that's what you're talking about minimum front set back from edge of of the internal roadway line so that's where you got that from and I mean sometimes you're going to have people that pull their Fifth Wheel in and they're not going to unhook it they's going to leave it all hooked together if they if they fit within the spot so again if you get 20 foot on the spot 10 in front 10 the back it's just a lot of space it's unusable that's why I think five and five is fine I mean you need to get around them I mean it's not like you can have it jammed up I mean if you had a back end like you look at the other one backend space you got a minimum rear line of 5T so you can't go back against the wall FL you'd have to be back 5T from the wall um so in that case you're got a 15t because you got a front front set back and and a rear set [Music] back I mean in my mind there is absolutely no reason that you couldn't be 5 foot off the road be fine I don't I don't I don't I mean you're not driving on the campsites you're driving on the road and the road is going to be adequate for the traffic you know I mean if you're parked right up on the road you're technically okay unless you're driving off the road so I think 5 foot is plenty of buffer to be off the front that's that's my opinion I feel we should just keep it the way it is 10 ft and and move forward can we ask them some more questions so you all have obviously I mean we've camped a lot yeah a lot exactly see one to zero a lot so five is quite a bit 10 you know the reality is the fire department and vehicles need space the road needs to be big enough to make sure that that that you know everybody can travel but realistically we see one two feet off of the line all the time and that that's what we see I've never been a campground head foot you almost play cord hole in front of your camper it's not every camper but but you know when you get the big ones they you know they need more space they need more space so happens and your question on parking you know a lot of times every fifth wheels will unhook and park alongside it because the lot is wide enough for for the the RV and the vehicle because the slide outs aren't the full length of the unit so they're you know it just it just I understand you guys are looking at doing a highend one the problem I have is this is for if we get I mean not for your specific this is this is the bare amendment I understand you guys are going above and beyond and and I get that um so this is not necessarily for you guys because you guys are already exceeding what we're talking about but this is for somebody else who might want to come in and just Jam every single thing in there and there's a safety issue for not only the residents that are in there but for our fire and police that are going in there so I to I just want you to understand I understand that you are absolutely going above and beyond and exceeding what we're talking about and that's why we have one ways oneway roads throughout as as much as possible as well just so to that fact I mean you essentially plan this thing so that you do have good flow through the the park and one of those motor coaches is much larger than a fire Tru I believe isn't [Music] itage m home mot home myself 22 foot to 45 you have trailers then a lot of campsites also account for not just the the tow vehicle and the camper they account for a space for friends or family to visit to park another some of those and just talking from the camper perspective some of that other space does account for that purpose for corn and space just to have a p PUO a place to do things and like I said to park auxiliary vehicles but from our perspective the roadway has to be cleared you can't park on the roadway long as we get apparatus there that's the main focus would you all be comfortable a certain setback the more room you give me the better I mean out rers on on a ladder truck is 12 to 16 ft so more room you give us the better so so 10 is but you wouldn't need a ladder truck in the RB Park I'm going to push when nfpas standing behind and that's it you I mean I'm not asking for anything just long as we get our trucks do if we can get a little bit more space to you know allow those Outriggers to come out that's great but you I would never ask for anything that's eightt then minimum well too I mean you're going to have 10 foot in between the the stuff too pull right alongside the something burning you're not going to be right up against it anyway right exactly so be down the road a little bit lot right and you get you get 10 foot in between them minimum so for whatever it is I mean it's again it's really it's impacting parking and whatnot more than anything yeah I said most of the Extra Spaces accounting for that vehicle that my camperi not yes that's exactly right I say we go with the do we do we I have a question do we have a minimum here for the width of the road yes yeah 15 15 well that's that's what I'm saying because maybe because the National Fire Safety um recommendation was 10 foot Tom is that correct but you're EX that's what I'm trying to say maybe we're going to maybe we're saying the same thing in two different ways that's what I'm asking yeah so if you think about that from the 10 foot well we're going to find out so number three the the the internal private roadway shall have at least one direct connection to a paved public Street have a pavement width of 24t in accordance with City specification consist of concrete asphalt or across slimestone the roadway may be 15 feet in width if it is designed for a oneway as long as there is a minimum of 24 feet of unobstructed clearance and a minimum of 60 feet turning area and ra rate ey to permit free movement of emergency vehicles so in this this particular language the pavement may be 15 fet but there has to be a minimum of 24t of unobstructed clearance so that's on the sideways right so it's 15 ft of pavement but you have to have 24t of unobstructed clearance so that's four and a half so that's ma is n feet total soio 15ot is that correct so in in in this so the from the roadway to the unobstructed clearance right would be so it's 9 ft more so it's 4 and half foot but that's a different number than than what would be the the the setback right setback requires 10 feet so there's an overlap in the the clearance so they couldn't under this you know if you said okay you know they can park zero lot line they can park right on there well this section would say no you can't because you have to provide us four and a half foot off the pavement that you know there can't be anything so with this you're automatically you know not allowing them 4 and 1 half foot from the edge of pavement to put anything so now you're at 14 and a half foot with a 10 foot set back right well the setback is different because the setback is saying you have to be 10 foot off the road pavement right so this is saying you can't put anything in between you know the road payment and four and half be because we want 24 out of 15 right and so the the setback is saying that that distance has to be 10 feet so you're adding six more feet onto that to get the the setback so it's not four and a half plus 10 correct that's yeah the two overlap so so if you said again if you said well we want zero setback then you'd have to change that 24 feet of unobstructed clearance to you know 15 feet total so with this number three and then having that five foot what the mayor has recting then that would give no it would be five foot because you're you're saying that they they effectively can park a foot less than a foot off of half a foot yeah six inches off of that clearance that this this particular section requires but effect ly it's 5 foot off the pavement already or four yeah and if we put another 10 that would make it 14 you're measuring from the same spot so yeah you're measuring from the the P so the setback would be measured from that spot and so would the the D3 the um 2 24t of un obstructed clearance would be measured from the same spot so they would overlap so five foot would cover the 4 and A2 foot inquired for of course but plus a half a foot right would that still comply with the of course oh yeah yeah I've been uh going through the code and from what I can tell from what I looked at right here it um in 11 94 does not address anything about distance from the road it just addresses and that is included there so way to think about so again they're they're different sections and they have different meanings to them right so this one really is addressing what the chief is saying in terms of I need Elbow Room to operate right this is saying you know we're going to give you four and a half foot on both sides of of a 15 foot roadway for Elbow Room it's it's not necessarily addressing what a setback would be and so if you think about it from a residential perspective you know you have a driveway that goes up to the front of the house right and and what normally will happen is you know you can park in front of your garage but you can't park blocking the sidewalk and so even though your front setback maybe 20 feet the reality is you can only Park in 15 foot of that driveway because you're not allowed to lock sidewalk sidewalk if it's you know normal 5 foot you wouldn't be able to park here so that's kind of the setback thought process I like five now that we have it explained to us properly thank you everyone for explaining that properly I agree I think five foots more inadequate yeah all we're required by our own code is four and a half foot so for that specific part of it so I think five is [Music] good [Music] person well round five I still go for eight majority rules I'd rather go with eight I hear seven we split the baby again I'm just trying to make it out state for everybody that's all I'm not trying to be a I don't see that safety issue you need them you know right now we're sitting here we never see the safety issue until it's needed and then when it's needed then we start bitching about we don't give them what they needed so let's plan for our First Responders because we don't do that and I'm sorry they need to be included in all this well they are and he just said he just referred to the road width which is 10 foot required by law here here's the thing it's it's a balance right obviously Chief you'd like to have as you'd like to have a football field in between your I mean the more space obviously the better no I can't agree with that though more host [Music] right the further the further you can get away the better so but if you if you focus so much on on that aspect and you're too safe you're not going to have the development in the first place because nobody can make it work it doesn't make sense to have that much space off the road I mean would I would I want to be told when I pull in my driveway that I I got to pull my car all the way in I'm 10 foot off the road no of course not um if firet truck comes down there and I can tell I give you a perfect example of my house when I back out I've got uh we can park people come around to cut the grass they pull up they don't pull off the road they stay on the road they park there they pull the thing when I try to back out of my driveway I can hardly do it because they're right there blocking me all right and have bit my house caught on fire while he's blowing the grass I mean so you can think of scenarios where you know all hell breaks loose and you're in a tight spot but you know those are you know job to keep people safe that that's our job I don't again if if I thought 5 foot off the roadway on both sides impact of safety I would not recommend it but I don't see a problem in and I've been to several of these RV parks I've like he said Z if they're if they're one foot off it's you know I mean you're a I mean they're not you're not building homes they not staying there and pulling it out maybe after a week maybe a month you know a Transit type thing so now obviously a house that's going to be there all the time there could be an issue but in this case you're talking about really just a vehicle not even the RV the RV is more than likely are not going to have uh they're not going to be that long where they're they're take up the whole Space it's more of this the tow vehicle or the parking vehicle or whatever and again if you're forcing to go all the way 10 foot in it's it's it's a lot I don't think it impact safety otherwise I'd be in agreement I just never seen that that's I mean why I mean why should Port Richie with our first RV part be so restrictive that you got to be 10 foot off the road that's you know I don't want to put that kind of you [Music] know the least restrictions to accomplish the goal that's that's the way I look at things and if if 10 foot is we have to have 10 foot well let's make it 10 foot I I just question whether that's actually needed I could go with either [Music] one I would like to show you 8 foot 8 foot's fine you know as long as it's not 10 I still think it's too much but if uh the good news is Eric we can change it this is not written in this is not this can be changed like everything else how about suggestion seven there a little bit less it's almost right oh my God Seven Eric good Lord fine seven I'll go with seven seven it is seven I'll give two foot Seven's a good number and this is for both both the tens I see on here will be two sevens yes yes okay for both of them yes seven yes we all compromise a compromise I was hard set on five so I'm giving two seven drive that was painful I had visions of offense the other still that's that's not done yet I'm sorry yep yeah okay I thought the the real conversation was going to be on the last the last column which is the Waterfront jurisdictional Wetlands which would be 25 ft which again this this was lifted directly from um Crystal rivers and and again they they are a little bit different than than the situations we would have in the r r A1 you know their areas that they were going to allow this were up against um River Riverfront and you know other sensitive areas that are actually out of their control because the State of Florida would be inter intervene with that and so they were kind of following what those requirements were going to be um as they put that there you know we don't have in those A1 areas off the top of my head I don't think we have any of those jurisdictional or jurisdictional water front fronts but there could be Wetland again we wouldn't find that out until um you know the development comes forward and is classified as Wetland and to be honest we probably be out of our control anyways because another jurisdiction will be saying you have to be x amount of feet away from that so understands this this number could be different if you want it to be different to give you a idea of what 25 foot looks like s if you'd point there from that blue piece of tape all the way back to the back wall is 25t again like I mentioned before my comments on that that's a lot as well and so if you look at the the front of that chair out in the audience the wall is 15 foot which I think is plenty enough off the water I would definitely consider looking into that number as far as what FD and Swift Mud would have recommendations for they would control because they're going to control that um especially going forward um already discussing the new um the new ms4 storm water reporting they're doing a lot of changes to the permit so I would definitely check that number out before setting that so can so can we instead of putting a number in that because I'm sure the umut ETC will change that just can reference to whatever their standard is I mean instead of putting it's five we want actually some buffering off the water I mean you don't want to be parked on a lake even if Swift Mud said it's okay that's be only thing but we can try to find out what that number is 15 now find out what that number is yeah leave at 15 and if it's greater than that yeah yeah and understand that that is a minimum so so again you know Swift mud's minimum may be a different number than what our minimum is which would probably be greater than what our minimum is Swift Mud would sued our number whatever that is so in what this would take a place of is if Swift Mud says you don't have any issues you know we don't care um we're saying we we don't want it to be any that's that's good I don't I don't you don't want people parking right up on the water 15 for now see what I know you all been that easy i' gave I'm just kidding there nothing else on that slide no beat that slide down uh still on standards uh temporary structur such as canus awning Screen Enclosures or platforms or normal camping equipment may be erected but must be removed when the recreational vehicle space is vacated no other structure addition shall be built or become part of any recreational vehicle so that one is again it allows you know to put a a a structure up where they can sit and keep away from mosquitoes or other bugs I guess and that um they can't like build an addition that's attached to the the RV or the the uh trailer again it FS with this is a transient lodging area and we don't want permanent structures built there unless otherwise indicated on an approved PUD master plan camping shall be limited to one campsite per designated recreational vehicle space and shall not be allowed in any other designated area so with this one um you know if if they are if the developer comes in and says hey we want to have uh tent camping um you know they could EAS easily say we're going to have this site right here and we're going to have 15 10 sites on it and so it's very clearly spelled out what this is saying is not that is if you don't come forward with that the most you're going to have is one per campsite or one campsite per designated recreational space so again if they come in and there's 70 RV sites well they could up to 70 campsites spread throughout there without necessarily coming to you and saying I you know I want 70 in this one area have an RV andent pardon me can you have an RV n aent on the same site is that what that says well if you go to number back to number seven where temporary structure such as canvas awning screened enclosures or platforms I guess you know not necessarily a tent I mean as I guess it's possible I'm I'm not into camping or rving or anything like that so I don't know what I'm talking about that is a caveat to this um you know I could easily see where maybe I don't want my kids in my RV put them out in a 10 right so that would be you know a screened enclosure I guess keep them away from me um so that would be different than a a camp site yeah so on their PUD master plan they wouldn't necessarily show maybe maybe they would so I have a layout let's say I have all RV spaces all pads or whatever in that Master Plan do I say if I don't have an RV there I'm going to have it provision for two or are you saying that in their master plan here's my section of RVs here's what I'm kind of reserving for1 I can see here is you're gonna you have let's say you have all no T campaign it's all just RV spots but you wna allow tent camps are they they're GNA be limited to just one or can they do two based on this it would just be they only have one tent per space and that that space could be rather large if you're camping in a tent you get two or three on there perfectly fine but they wouldn't necessarily show that on their master plan because it's of course do a business they they they don't have all their RV spots filled so they're going to allow some camping y that's what that's saying okay so I I would suggest that and let me ask a question for you guys what um as far as tents on a campsite that's an RV size well what's a normal number that you would maximum number that you allow where would you put them 8301 Congress um so typically if they're just tent camping you got Mom and Dad's tent you kids tent and maybe you have a teenager you know so it it really depends H what the what the size of the thing so we would probably structure that based on the size of there if they have a 12T 1200 foot or if they've got a bigger lot or or whatever I think what it's referring to is people like to Rustic camp and you have an acreage that maybe doesn't have any electricity or all of that we don't have any plans for that but some people do enjoy that maybe that's what it means when you can have so many structure or so many tents on but this would so it would really be anywhere from three to four per site yeah depending on yeah but but this is going to have a a concrete pad tent camping is you you can't pound a steak into concrete so it's going to be limit you right there so well this be could be gravel adequate base that be concrete yeah usually the pad is for the the vehicle and then the other maybe 10 is grass so they put there that that would be the only spot you could put so that limit that Li that alone limits you so so what what this is limiting is so using the example of okay we're going to have we're we're one party you know it's going to be mom and dad and you know a t for each of the three kids so four t0 you could put four t0 on that one campsite but what you couldn't do is under this language have two separate families you know say okay I'm going to split that side up and and you know have two different you know individuals on there because it's a camp site not tent I was read tent I was so so what this is doing is interchanging campsite with RV site [Music] gotcha so if being and my wife and you and your wife want to go camping together in in that analogy we couldn't I couldn't put my tent and you could put your tent on the same campsite we have to have a whole separate campsites as long as as long as they're touching like a yeah like our see I say no I think you failed because you're you're a party of you're you're inclusive right I agree so make our language restricted yeah I can't go they can't rent me a camp site for me and and then the next day Susie Q comes in with her 14 kids and has another campsite next to me no right no yeah that's that's what I'm saying obviously this would be a a you know it's it's your you're in it but you could put multiple camp sites on it to a certain I mean maybe we don't want four maybe it gets too crowded on one campsite so I don't think we should restrict how many tent I don't think we can we're not going to be in the accounting they're going to be doing that yeah and so I think that it just also means like they can't tent in any other area but what is designated for specific recreational vehicle yeah so like they can't tent in the road space that the firefighters need to drive down and in the open area for unless it's designated as a tent camping area right because they could do that if they want tent camping in there Camp want to pay that price just for the so as long as as long as this one campsite doesn't get translated into oh no you can have one tent I'm good I was think I was reading it like that the lawyer read it like that that means something that's pretty bad is it yeah and guess who's going to interpret the law right there and you'll fight me yeah she tells me no all the time but it cly says fight not tent so every word has a meaning and when I skip boards I mess up too so yeah the last section buyers shall be made only in stoves and other equipment or structures intended for such purposes and placed in safe and convenient locations where they will not constitute fire hazards vegetation undergrowth trees and recreational vehicles so it's basically says you just can't build a campfire any place you want there has to be um you know a stove or other equipment or structure that's intended you know like a actual fire pit that's designed to contain the fire can't set the kids p on fire probably I mean not specific Al prohibited but frown upon what was that about marshmallows you said I want to know if it comes with marshmallows of course there's two types of burning one's land clearing or clearing of debris that you have in your yard and that kind of burning is prohibited and then there's recreational burning which is I want to make a more melt you know melt some marshmallows and sit around a campfire and enjoy your beer with friends those are recreational fires and that's what they're talking about there so we would allow those in the city as as long as they are in you know some sort of containment area reasonable size you know there no Embers flying out of them and they're always occupied so we have certain criteria to allow recreational Burns um within the city and so the details you know as as the plan goes through the process for approval you know they would look at that and say you know where you know where where Camp yeah where where will campfires be um and they'll have to spell out you know what what what is you know where they will be what kind of structures or equipment they're going to be using to contain that in other words you could have fire fit something like Whiskey Whiskey Joe's yeah I'm not familiar with theirs but oh yeah the little they have the fire Rings yeah they can have those or the commercially bought ones you buy at Walmart the metal ones so they have to contain the fire I guess there's a series of things they have to contain the fire they have to contain the Embers and then the other big thing is somebody always has to be there with them but we could work with the park owners and then and give them our criteria they would put that into their park rules just just my understanding would that let's say you lot of times you see rocks lining a fire area would that be acceptable is it have to be some kind of commercial that would be that would be acceptable as long as it's containing the fire ring that's the purpose of the Rocks I mean it's aesthetically pleasing but it's also to M focused is to contain the fire from spreading out of there so you couldn't have rocks around it looking and logs hanging out of it that defeats the purpose of it all so no fun you think it would be maybe not this is just listening to the very specific requirements that the city had the fire department has for people within the city number nine I think might either need to use those specific words that he just said a couple times or make a reference that it needs to comply with the fire department's sounds policy which might be easier because you might change your policy I don't and then yeah so they literally copi and paste NFPA on number nine is what that is but in our fire code we are going to require them in the fire code when we review their plans that we'll have to that the fire department approve fire safety rules and regul regulations be shall be conspicuously posted by management so we're going to require that and when we do our site plan that they have fire safety rules that we approve good see is landscape and buffering uh recreational vehicle park shall have a buffering in accordance with the provisions of section 12795 or is specifically required by the city council in its approval action so there is section 12795 the buffering requirements um in their their quite uh yes um but again or is specifically required by the city council and its approval action so I mean you could you know I mean how we would view that is You' be more more strict than that because there could be a situation where um thinking of a very intensive use you know there's a a drivein restaurant to a residential unit you know you're probably going to be more restrictive in terms of what that buffer is to protect the nature and the quality of life for those residents where in an agricultural District that is more spread out you you might not have as as strict of a a buffering requirement but at least a minimum of of of you know what this is and again you know uh side property line for the rear side property line of of a lot developed or proposed to be developed for nonresidential use it joins residential zoning District residentially developed area or public Street joining any residential district or residentially developed area suitable buffering in the form of a solid fence aary wall or plant material shall be provided said along the entire length of the property line so again in in this particular use you may not be saying you have to have a m Ary wall but you may say you know we want planting materials that that you know will buffer between the uses um then if if that is the case you know it goes further it says the plant material should be of an evergreen variety capable of obtaining the required minimum height and shall be properly maintained and again you know not getting specific to the development that could be coming down the line um but again in a areas that are agricultural you know there's probably going to be already some buffering that you know depth that you could you know already be in place that the developer will be bringing forward with that but again these these standards are the minimums and and you could require more fine with me good all existing so this is where we get into our tree discussion all existing trees having 4 in dbh or more that are located within the designated buffer shall be maintained and must be protected by establishing a tree protection Zone pursuant to requirements for trees and tree protection of This Land Development code these may be counted as contributing to the total tree requirement no site grading shall be allowed within the buffer dbh what is that that is you know probably about two hours ago I could tell you off the off the top of my head but and should we spell it out on there I think um actually actually I have the tree protection code if you could pull that up do yes but you're going to have to directly see kind of goes it's diameter at breast height oh there you go diameter at breast height yes that's interesting for the average average person that's about 5et High that is a strange four thing I I didn't know we had a tree protection zone I'm still giggling at that it's it's standard for measuring trees okay and it refers to a tree diameter measured at 4.5 ft above the ground so you were almost almost there oh so dbh actually has a number why don't we put that diameter measured at 4 because it may change oh okaye it change the standard yeah yeah so so what is this saying jeez you got to protect them if they're bigger than 4 in in diameter so they cannot yeah so in in the buffer zone so if if in the buffer zone existing prior to the development you know where they're going to have the buffer if there is a tree existing tree that has a four you know it's four inches in diameter at four and a half feet um you know they have to protect it they have to be maintained it must be protected by establishing a tree protection Zone again we have we actually have a code right now that she just pulled up which is labeled tree tree protection tree protection and restoration now one thing I noticed is that I think ours is actually five inches and not four inches so we need to to change that but but they would as part of the the development plan come forward with with how they're going to you know they'll they'll show all the trees that are required because our development standards require a certain amount of trees um and if they're five inches which will probably change us to um they would have to show that those trees are not going to be cut down they'll be protected you know whether they create buffers around the tree in the buffer zone so they won't you know take those down as part of this and again it's meant to keep those species that we want to keep there um and protected so they don't have to replace it because you know what what we don't want is they come in with a plan that shows all these trees and then when they develop it all those trees are gone and so we're just requiring them to show us what they're going to do how they're going to protect those trees as to go forward and in our code it says how what I mean obviously you can't leave all the trees up you can't develop I mean that's yeah if if you so again this is a very extensive tree protection and restoration so if you go down I can't remember the exact section I was trying [Music] to keep [Music] going there is one here tree plans no yep so they have to you know as part of this they're going to have to show their tree plan because again we require based upon the type of development a certain number of trees within within the area they're developing um I think keep going down a little bit more is where it gets into the the maintenance because you know there are some trees that we want there and we want to protect but there's other trees that you know are maybe invasive and aren't aren't as good it's all contained within this this code you have a tree plan again you know this this this sounds I think more ominous than what it really is and and generally in development because here in the city we're not really developing large tracks of land it's not as onerous as you might think um in this particular case guessing about this particular development when it comes forward they already have a lot of trees and and and this is this is just within the buffer zone so not they're going to develop in that area anyway right and and but there are there are going to be areas where they are going to develop and they have to make sure that that you know whatever they do complies right I I don't think it's going to be a thing an issue in that particular case where we're going to say you have to add 50 trees right it's really going to be just make sure you don't eliminate trees to fall below what these these minimums are okay are we changing four to five inches what are we changing to five in and number two will be five in landscap being shall be consistent with the requirement standards for buffers Landscaping tree protection of this LDC again we do have standards I didn't actually I forgot to give Ashley that if you wanted to look at what our our Landscaping code is but um again we have that and that's what we would be reviewing if they submitted this to the the city as part of the review process uh recreational vehicle spaces and designated amenity and service area shall not be located within the buffers required along the property boundaries I that's self-explanatory buffering landscape shall be continually and properly maintained you know obviously if if they come in with a plan that shows us you know really beautiful trees and you know no weeds and everything growing up our expectations would be that that's what they maintain going forward as well if there's wooded area yep does that need to be maintained as well or is that be natural just leave natural yeah I mean again I think the way that I would interpret this which hopefully is the legal perspective of how this is but is what what we're trying to prevent is a a pretty picture but not the intent so if if it's kind of a natural um and you know non-invasive species you know whatever those wild flowers or wild plants are going to call them weeds wild plants are there and they say this is this the way you see it is the way that we intend to do this I mean there's nothing wrong with that may not look pretty but in fact I mean it's closer to what the natural yeah is and and again that's what we're trying to prevent from happening is is yeah something that's not natural to the area if they came in and I I can't think of an invasive you know there's there's certain IVs right that are invasive species you you know bamboo if they came in and said hey we want to put bamboo up all along here you know we we would be saying no no bamboo no I'm just saying you know there's a wooded line if buffers the property whatever they don't have to go in there and deach it and all that no no no again it's just we want to make sure whatever they show us during the the process is what they intend to do and so if they again show a a picture of you know we're going to have you know these these palm trees and that's all is going to be there and you know six months later it's palm trees and you know just weeds and all this other stuff well that's not what we approve got but if but if it's natural vegetation that's going to be there that's what's going to be there okay any issues with those no tree talk oh I'm [Music] sorry H we discussion interal roadways and circulation uh the primary interest and exit for the recreation e park shall be from a collector arterial classified roadway so this is basically trying you know to prevent it from being in the middle of a residential area so it's a residential street which isn't a collector or arterial those have specific definitions that again I should have written down to provide you but those are are more heavily traveled types of of roadways than just a standard residential Road um parking spaces or so I guess any any issues with that that language uh parking spaces for ancillary uses associated with recreational vehicle park shall meet the minimum standards for parking space requirements of This Land Development code so the example I'll give to you is if if uh the the recreational vehicle developer Park developer says we're going to provide a a store you know a camping store and we we would look at that as a different use than the rest of the park so within that plan they would have to conform with whatever the the code for a store camping store would be um and again we have specific parking requirements for all types of uses so we' look at whatever that use is and say oh you have to provide one parking space for you know five Shoppers or whatever that that code would be for that particular use like if they decide we're have a restaurant you know there would be a parking requirement for that again this would be part of the plan that they would commit to us in conformance so this wouldn't this wouldn't restrict at your campsite parking on the the campsite no yeah so this again this is for ancillary uses it's something that is not necessary I mean I guess you could make the argument well what's par what's an RV park without a camp store well you can have an RV RV park without a camp store so the camp store would be an ANC use um you know because again we don't know if you know today it's only for the the camp but maybe down the road it's you know for the neighborhood or for the city or whatever and so when we don't want is Now parking all over the place because you know they they sell a great you know sore there right and so everybody wants to go there to get their s'mores um we just want to make sure that you know we have at least the right parking standards for those the entrance of the internal private roadway shall be constructed of concrete for the first 50 feet and have a pavement width 30 feet with 30 foot curb radius so again this is driving into the park off of that that uh connector arterial rub is there a reason why just lied concrete or another a hard surface like that I I think you you could do that I I think I don't know again this this is language we stole directly from from uh Crystal River right you could easily have asphalt U or other qualified Sur I was looking at that Chang the the language of the previous yeah so a little bit later um because there was some conversation about well concrete asphal is is too limiting and maybe you know you could have something else looking at at you know what what others have allowed for that to me you know we extended to saying concrete asphal or Crush Limestone and and again I think even when when you ask the fire chief which I'm sure you will about that um you know I'm sure he will not have a lot of good things to say about fresh Limestone I've already talked to him but I think uh I think in in the entrance part there's there's two purposes for having a hard base one you know you're going to have a lot of turning movements coming in and out of there so you don't want it start ring and con why concrete concrete tends not to do some of the things that asphalt does with the pushing when you have large Vehicles putting their brakes on there kind of shoves the the asphalt and creates bad bad places there so that's where they'll tend to break up first concrete doesn't undergo those type same stresses so I guess that that would be my guess why they put concrete there and I wouldn't disagree with that but yeah might be up conrete over roads are made of as yeah and I think again I'm I'm not I'm not saying yeah I think where where I would draw the line is when you get off of you know a very hard durable surface you know you're going to have a lot of maintenance issues and a lot of issues and and again I may not necessarily care about what happens to you know a large RV TR on there but I know that I'm going to have a million dooll piece of equipment at some point on those roads I do care about that and I don't want it to you know have issues but I think you know again those those widths are important because you know it does help make sure that our fire equipment can get in and out the ancillary benefit is for the the users again from my perspective the users will be able to get their large pieces of equipment in now they're uh pretty pretty safely and without damage so do we need to change that to not be just concrete yeah I mean I if if you want to make that concrete or asle I don't think that would be an issue I okay with that the further out in on the uh interior roads concre as for of course Limestone you know I think of millings um which is recycled asphalt almost becomes asphalt right um even even gravel to a certain degree depend on how it is I mean these are interior roads you you want to keep kind of a campground feel and if you pave it it becomes less of that and you're adding a lot of obiously expense to to be able to do that is there I guess there's there a reason behind limiting that don't want dirt roads in there that's go out saying and and maybe even gravel because it can hole up and but most campgrounds are gravel roads if leave inter right I mean for the most part um they be well maintained they get out of shape but I don't think there's a reason why we for to to pave well I I again from our perspective we looked at it and and we're thinking of of our equipment that we have to put on there that that's why we want a hard durable surface that that I mean you know the I guess the the counterargument that I'll throw out there to my own argument right now so we can make that argument amongst myself is that that you know they're they're you know they could easily let an asphalt or concrete road go to pot and you know I would have that same issue with with you know a fire engine going over there that it isn't on there I guess you know from a development standpoint though we're trying to start off with the best possible situation that we can have and and you know typically with whether it's concrete or asphalt roadway the way it's designed is the last um where you know necessarily A gravel or dirt or you know a a stone dust Road um you know is is not necessarily designed to last it's designed to be efficient as a road but costly to maintain over time because you're constantly grading and making sure there's no Pooles and again from from a a perspective of safety equipment you want the best possible so you don't have to worry about it you know hitting the a you know a pothole and damaging the equipment or or causing an accident because it loses control um you want the best possible condition you can have and again I think you ask to keep that you can probably say that in a lot better words than I I just did um but again these are the development standards that that we feel are necessary to protect you know the public safety equipment that we're going to be putting in there well this say you want to go well Above This you want to put the brick roads in there wouldn't put brick roads so I mean if there's a concrete base underneath that or asphalt base yes properly they Brick Road would have that right well properly yes but I drove on roads in Paris that were better than our asphalt roads and they were all brick yeah they probably don't have asphalt there you find that the way that they do it there they don't yeah you to change that to 15 ft yes I have that marked nice big letters yes I like all this including the to leave it as is with 15 fet and ask both to add it to concrete what what about millings let's just entertain that what's your thought on millings with what about what I'm sorry Milling recycled asphalt it's it's basically it's they they they crunch up Asphalt they redeploy it it hardens I mean it it's not as bad as not as good as asphal but just about listen I I want growth in the city so don't don't take this the wrong way I'm just going to ponder a question um when we have new subdivisions coming come in and contractors come in and build place we require them to build streets and sidewalks so we have the apparatus access and room and safety for pedestrians and so we're building a new park whatever it may be um again we need to require apparatus access and any roads that are not paved or concrete can be very subject to the weather so and to um um maintenance so again I I Mr copard mentioned maintenance of a pave or concrete road it does need to take place but it's minuscule and compared to maintenance of a Lime Rock Road crushed asphalt any of that those other um options are very subject to weather um I I'm not you know as familiar with the property but I know Captain Quinn had talked to me about it before when this will come up and one of the issues was that um it has flooded before uh been you know uh the access roads have been underwater before um so knowing that history um it begs the differ what is a secure solid surface so um again I'm I'm not the deciding factor as to whether you pave it or Mill it or not it needs to be like you know Mr coppler said a solid foundation for a fire truck to go Road drain pipe has to be able to allow the the apparatus to cross it well I mean I gravel can be problematic for sure I guess millings is a is a popular choice that's lower cost and I would argue is probably a better product than uh crushed Limestone that also depends on how it's laid how thick it's laid how long it's been there whether it's compacted or not i' I've had friends that bought millings and put them in their yard and it just pushed down into the sand like it was never even there I had a neighbor that did it by his dumpster where the garbage truck kept coming and put it out there and again because it wasn't thick enough compacted right so just to use the word Mills is you know op same thingone be the same thing you don't pour thick enough which are really all unimproved roads right are we not removing crushed Limestone I thought we were going to remove that no be leing as is so first part we added concrete and others have I I do want to say that that area has flood my neighbor used to own the skating ring that is right there and um I think um she sold it but they have had to change the floor in the skating rink three times to my knowledge minimum um so that that area does flood to the point where it has ruined the skating there's a major drainage thing along the side there so want to flood I don't know if the actual property itself is flooded I've not been in the property I'm just telling you about the skating rink adjacent to it right yeah so the the skating rink has has has flooded yeah so to to the point where I had to replace the floor three times so on three separate occasions over the past 20 some odd years so just to um and we're paying to I apologize um we're paying to um repaved the road by the trailer parks no November and and down there because of the potholes and those are fful and for and we're doing it for the safety of our our first respond because of the holes so I I think we need to um protect our equipment our responders and the people that are there so can you drive on Crush limestone is that an issue I mean if it's maintained and and compacted appropriately sure I mean we're going to go wherever we got to go as long as the road will allow us to get there like I said I'm not the deciding factor on whether it's paved or crushed or gravel but it needs to be able to be maintained and sustained and and taken care of on a regular basis otherwise it's subject to weather would that be in the overall site plan as well and you guys would aine on whether that would be adequate for your service equipment sure sure that that would be part of the the plane review process correct for us I mean it's a private property so you know you can't say you've got to repay you know re what's the term re resurface it fill the potholes I mean is is that beyond our legal capabilities I mean that would go back to like we talked before who's going to inspect it who's G to go who's going to monitor that you could within this section I guess you could add some language about make you know maintaining it to a certain level um then you at least would have the argument that you you know this is a kind of it's in a contract at some point we have an agreement you need to keep to your the bargain um and then you could have some more more um Power behind you I just want to make sure that whatever we put in here that that we can um so I I don't yeah I don't know off the top of my head because I haven't had to deal with this but other other communities I've been in in their their code enforcement sections you know Property Maintenance you know it it will talk about facilities you know think think of a a store and has a parking lot you know um again I would have to check here before I could say it or might off the top of his head maybe you know if if that they don't take care of that parking lot and just becomes you know the moon you know we we should have the ability and maybe not in this particular other place I've been to say you know Property Maintenance wise you're not maintain your property this is a code violation you need to fix it I don't know if if ours Property Maintenance allows for that or not I don't recall on top my head about the parking lot but but we do have Property Maintenance in our code yeah but I can't remember off the top of my head about that we'd have to look to see that but there may there may be that outlet to do that now again it may be not a proactive enforcement of that it may be you know someone you know bent the the rim on their very large uh RV and they come complaining to us about it and say you know they're they haven't maintained that or or it could be that we have to take uh you know one of our engines in there for a Medical Response or a fire and we bust the rim on that that they you know force that issue but but I'd have to look to see if our codes you know have that that provision or not but again as a condition of approval you could have that I'd like to see what the code has to say regarding that if that's okay yeah yeah I'll look at that and get it to you before next meeting I just hesitate to be so restrictive on internal roads um on a campground no I don't want to be restrictive either I just want to make sure that we can get in there you know yeah that I mean like I said you know I I drove down November and whatever not too long ago and the potholes were horrible on a paved Road um I can't um somebody get trying one of our emergency responders trying to get there in a hurry to um no is actually well means and again if you look at from the development that that they put in um you know they want they want high-end customers coming in with big RVs if I'm if I'm an owner there I'm not going to come to some Campground it's got riddle with potholes and all that so kind of self we're not doing it for this these specific people that we have to do it for the people who don't want that who are just you know we're going to try to do it for other reasons so but again a campground you know you don't see a lot of them i' V say hardly any that that have all asphalt pave roads but all I'm suggesting here is that uh you know we do have fresh Limestone again millings is a is a is a is a popular thing it's it's durable if it's done right you know again I don't have a problem saying not gravel but you know if it gets the point it cost too much to to lay the infrastructure down for roads and all that to actually do development you're not going to get any development so it's all this all for not right if they you know because Paving and stuff is very expensive and is it is it if it's what we want okay do we really need it to be well let's look at the code and see what that has to say and we can go from there how's that that work okay for you [Music] yeah um the next one allal roadways shall be privately own maintain just basically saying you know it's your roads you have to maintain them um and less of different roadway configurations approved by city council the recreational vehicle park shall have a continuous path of travel throughout the recreation vehicle park with no dead end roadways unless called this act is installed in accordance with City specifications and originally when I think we first talked about this um it kind of ended with no deadend roadways and it didn't allow for call to sacks you know looking at it again if built to City specifications they could have a dead end with a call to sack but again you know the specification will be what goes through uh the the fire department to look at and say what you know the turning radius requirements are for their their equipment good on y good no issues signage uh one identification sign shall be allowed at the recreational park Vehicle Parks primary entry and exit said sign said sign actual City Sign regulations so so the sign regulations will control you know the height the the size and all that this is basically just allowing for only one one site one sign at the entrance way and whatever the size and height would be dictated by the existing City Sign regulations traffic direction shall be clearly visible at all internal roadways other internal directional information lines for the KE to the Park are permitted uh utilities and refuge disposal recreational vehicle park shall be required to be connected to Public Water and Sewer electricity shall be provided to each recreational vehicle space vehicle parking pad all electrical utility lines in the park shall be underground all internal Water and Sewer will shall be privately owned and maintained all Solid Waste shall be contained stored in sanitary and nuisance free manner dumpster in or trash receptacle shall be provided located in a central location easily accessible to all recreational vehicle spaces number three allal Water and Sewer should we say lines uh sure yeah and and and I mean if because it could be that they may need a lift station to get it there so it's not just the lines it would be the the other equipment necessary as well in other words I didn't want to have a private water utility there or a private sewer there because it really doesn't Define here yeah well the the yeah so you know the connection here so it has to be yeah the infrastructure yeah whatever the infrastructure want to call it out yep yeah the uh only thing I had mentioned before was on number two the electricity shall be provided to each recreational vehicle space um sometimes you have no hookups do we want to force every space to have electricity and if so we don't have water mandated so is there a reason why other the fact that's what they have is that we you have to have electricity on each one of the spaces so is this for the legal terms is this mandatory or is it one of those that may the states you have to have electricity shall yeah have yeah I don't have a specific reason why that language is like that because he's right I mean when you go to an RV part there are a lot of them that have the electrical hookups and then there's a couple that might not for people who want to go rustic or people who just want a tent don't need an electrical hookup I don't know what the reason would be that we forc electricity on each one of them I mean obviously the more more electricity hookups and water soon Cooks you have the the more charge right exactly that me this is a nicer facility but this is coming out the gate too you some that stuff I think gets added as time goes on as you develop right too so you maybe start out with half of them like that and then work your way towards as you but you don't need electricity and water to keep your Camp spot I me most I mean you can park an RV and a Walmart parking lot and operate fine right so you just have to have obviously a place to dump out oh that's later on yeah was hook to the sewer and even that it didn't say you have to have sewer in each one of the campsites it's just the park itself has to have a sewer connection so so that's then that's what I'm looking so again provide you what the the state requirements are so it gets into the the water and sewer cook up so again reason why this one probably doesn't say that for water and sewer there's a whole set of state standards that they have to comply with you know whether you know they provide you know sewage for you know self contained units or not I mean there's a whole another layer of review that happens with water and sewer it there isn't anything in the state code for electricity is not there's nothing that I see that talks about electricity but I'm just reading very quickly here so I agree yeah if anything think water is probably more important than electricity so I I would probably be scratch that or can make it a may it may be provided you can scratch it and have the same result but if you want something in there that addresses it it could say that they may provide well you could leave it say m provide and say all Electric electrical utility lines that are you or whatever they shall be underground oh yeah that I agree they should be underground yeah but uh so I think if you wanted to if you wanted to change it and not not make it a mandatory requirement it could be electricity may be provided and then obviously if is the lines need to be underground y I like that better I really think the goal is I mean as time goes on you would I mean they would be providing electricity to each one of those but in the onset you know I that's a costly thing and there's you you know if you're there for a couple nights or whatever do you really need electricity not necessarily I you want it but yeah not required especially in AR July and August months right okay anything else with that good y common facilities recreational areas open space for common areas playgrounds and other recreational uses shall be provided to rate at least 20% to the gross area the recreational vehicle park the recreation area may include space for common walkways in related interior landscape areas Recreation Area may be comprised of facilities for active Recreation such as swimming pools or beaches shuffle board courts or play lots for children these facilities shall be located and interconnected by defined walkways to be readily available for all recreational vehicle spaces and separate from vehicular traffic flow the the other question I had on the 20% um let's say that there's a lake this particular has a lake does that Lake include is that included at 20% or is that because it specifies open space for common areas playgrounds I'm assuming out middle of the waters well it says gross area so it was the same as the density for the other thing we talked about well right so I would say yes the lake is is included in that pools and beaches right yes I mean it's it you know the key the key there is recreation area right and um if if that is considered a Recreation Area you know they they can CAC they can throw a boat swim uh restrooms and bath facilities shall be located within 500 of any Des recreational vehicle space bicycle rack shall be provided at one space for every 10 recreational vehicle spaces uh the developer is responsible for obtaining any and all permits and approvals required by the city and other federal state and local government permits to operate the recreational vehicle park is provided by the approved PUD master plan is any comment on that that sounds all right to you guys again I don't really know it sounds okay to us up here but if that's that's way out of the norm let us know yeah it's fine they com always guys are experts Lisa fan 8301 Congress I think the bathrooms you know I guess I'm not sure I'm not quite understanding that you have to have one within 500 feet of every RV I mean what's that what spot you just have to have one facility on the site wherever you're at in RV campground you have to have a bathroom facility within 500 foot of you that's what that said it site or any one site any designated space right wherever you're at there has to be within that space 500 feet at bath facility so you will never have to walk further than 500 foot to a bath facility what that says right I reading that correctly that's why I read it that's how I read it too that seems excessive most RVs are come with their own bathroom so I don't know that you need that many on site I see saying yeah yeah that that seems excessive like nowadays you have full hookups they all have their own the uh I think the obiously the intent though is if you don't have that you don't want to be should definitely be in the park you got to walk all the way in front of the park to get to the bathroom so it's you never know where they're going to be parked at that that don't have the facilities in their RV so let's let's think about that so 500 foot not quite right 600 to a little shorter two football fields that's pretty long distance i' see I mean if I had to walk a football field which is um 300 feet right yeah yard yeah so this would be almost two football fields well it seems POs to me I I figed to ask you guys but he says we're good so I think so too that's pretty long distance that's I will I don't think think that specifically is mentioned that there's a lot of um requirements in the Department of Health about bathing and restroom facilities much more than what we're asking okay I tried to look in here I don't see where it says um thing you gave us it doesn't have the specific specific about that but it talks about a lot of other requirements I mean toilets have the toilets have to be from people a lot of different stuff should we that that's not specifically in there that this the restrooms of bath facility shall be located within 500 feet I didn't see I'm reading quickly I didn't see that specific provision I was just letting you know there are a lot of other things that Department of Health States going to require that we haven't even hit on about toilets and um so it's not so I wouldn't refer they're going to have to follow that anyway but but the the state's requiring this is looks like what what's added here was a little in an addition to that um but there is a lot of information in there can we look into the help um guidelines I yes I can read it slower than I am now but I don't see any I don't think it's in there this this particular provision it does have requirements about restrooms and other facilities but I don't think the 500 ft from any designated Recreation vehicle SP is included it looks like they just have like a minimum of one toilet one Ural one Etc the only thing I see with is G yeah that's where I said um permanent in permanent buildings each toilet room shall be so located that no individual required to pass through a sleeping area other than his own but toilet faity shall be located no further than 200 feet from the door of each sleeping room that's building I don't think that the only I seeing distance do you guys think fire increase it to 600 maybe I don't know what I think think we should go with the Department of Health guid they don't have they don't have one no I mean just their guidelines and not add any extra ones as far as like feet put feet they're going to be required Anyway by the Department of Health to have at least a bathroom on the site so I mean it isn't like they said too like most people don't use those if you've got a bunch of kids in your RV maybe you do well I will say this C if I'm wrong that it's not so much the bathroom aspect of it as the the shower um because FL RVs is tight showers whatever so at least in my experience when I've been I wouldn't use the shower in the RV I would go to the shower [Music] house even though it's hooked up to the Sewer just more space it's just easier to do that but again I don't I'm not opposed to taking out any feet requirements on on bathroom I mean they need to have a bath facility there yeah and what you me obviously this is written across the board you want to have adequate facilities uh what that is would depend on the layout of the property again so you don't really know is that something we can control with a site plan um did we get that P River as well yeah yeah so you could I mean you could I I would again I need to read it again I've read it um the information from the state but I don't remember all of it um you could just for that provision refer to what the Department of Health requires you don't have to add anything extra you don't even have to refer to it because they have to follow it anyway but if you wanted to say something about it you could just refer it to the uh make sure it complies with the provisions from the Department of Health can we just say that can that the restrooms and bathro Facilities will be required and comply with the state of Florida Health Department you can and then whatever their restriction is that's got to comply anyway we kill two birs with one St Mike has has input I don't know you're actually going to it's going to be depicted by federal because there's 88 requirements right so it can be picked up during the process of whoever the designer is because it's going to be based on the number of RB spots the amount of occupancy based on how many parking spaces they're going to have to have at these facilities how many bathrooms are going to have to have and the ADA requirements yeah I think we leave us that that's that's fine that's a scratch to 500 foot take leave restrooms and bath facilities in but say should be provided as as dictated per state federal law state federal law okay what's the state fair bicycle racks I don't know if there is one but there might be yeah I thought that was interesting isn't that something with the bicycle R isn't that something that they could just like do do we need to have that in city code that sounds like something like Washington State or New York City would want yeah I'm not sure why don't these RVs carry their own bicycle rack when they move it into the facility yeah the thing pull off of there you pull it off and then you drive to the around the park and they all have kickstands [Music] right I assume that wanted that for some reason but you don't have to I don't I don't believe there's anything that I have never I have never researched anything about bicycle racks but I don't believe there's a provision that requires I don't know why we would require that she asked me what it's a bicycle it's they can do what they want whoever owns I think if they want us have be able to secure bicycles for their people that's fine if they don't that's fine too that's right number three is gone good that's that's the one right there yes right the developer of a recreational vehicle park which is fully or partially designated special flood Hazard area shall provide City with site plan delting the s FHA in which shall include a statement of testing to the base flood elevation as has been established by FEMA is certified by a licensed professional engineer register in the State of Florida and then lighting all common access routes roadways internal streets off street parking areas and surfice buildings within the RV park shall have adequate lighting to ensure visibility with such areas of light EXC me such areas at Night by Park resident guests and public safety personnel who might be called par night so we we don't have within our code anything specific about lighting or this this would have referred back to it um and so this is just a general statement saying that they will have adequate lighting and that would be determined as part of the the review process can we put something in there since this has been discussed previous that that we asked that they put some sort of buffers if there are the big street lights let keep it secure to the one area instead [Music] of to decrease light pollution Etc right can we ask that they shelding you mean the shields are I'm not quite sure what exactly I know we talked about it a long time ago this Shields I mean I'm kind surprised we don't have anything about lighting I mean there's kind of in in you know inp specific lighting requirements for like subdivisions but that's that's about as as far as we go so the answer could be yes it could also be a part of the approval condition that you know any any you know lighting provided internal to the the park has to have shielding to reduce light pollution I mean do do we have any that like with Walmart considering that's next to residential areas do they have shields or anything like that to keep their lights I'm looking around because I don't know who's going to answer straight down so they have a obviously a yeah con that goes around well generally you know the the lighting requirements they have kind of I think it's called spillage you know they can only spill over a certain amount off of their property and and so that but but again that's different than what you're bringing up about you know the shielding you know make sure it all stays down and not up because you know some lights you know not so much with with LED lights that tend to force it down um but the normal lights that you put in would would have that that effect that goes up this this is an area I think that you know we do need to look at our code to address this because I think you know there is a lot of movement towards you know reducing the the the amount of light pollution and again our location where we're at by the the golf it's kind of a unique feature that we could have if we do that um so we we do need to look at that and add a section to our code about it but again here the thinking is you know that could take a a length of time you know not not a fence code length of time but it could take a amount of time and we're kind of in the middle of this so I thought it's best to leave it really to the process and when they come here you can look at that and make that determination thanks hold on you oh so we made it through the whole the whole whole code thank you very much um I think the only the only other thing I wanted to address there I did get a question about you know what what type of of financial benefit does any development bring to the city and and in particular um you know what we would see with an RV part so my my com you know when I'm not an expert on this so keep that in mind but second part is going to be very general so you know obviously when ever you develop a piece of land you have the the current value and then you have the value of development so again not knowing the the the change is going to happen and and what that land assessment is going to go from to it's kind of hard to say that you're going to get you know a windfall from just the development itself based upon the the property taxes but but generally you know in in looking at some of the before and after of other RV parks I mean it's pretty clear that the value of the land goes up because of the use um again it's specific to the the assessor and all this other stuff so there's really no way to say you know the land is valued at a dollar today and it'll be valued at 10 times that because you have an RV par so there is there is a benefit of course in our case it we go into the CRA so there's a benefit to the C uh related to you know any type of taxing that may come off of it um and looking at it so I've learned a lot about sales tax in in the State of Florida thank you um not wanted to but I did um it it again you know there there will be a tax on whatever the the rental rate for the spaces will be and that impact to us is most likely contained and so I just I have to put a lot of caveats to this because I could be proven wrong and if I am great but um it would appear that that the biggest influence on that would be um our share of the penny for Pasco so you know that one cent per you know of of what we're going to get we're going to get 6 of that Penny um 67% right um so that would be where we would gain on that now the county and I believe I looked at this the county is one of the uh Pasco County is one of the counties in the State of Florida that actually um charges an extra 5% on transient uh lodging which is would be the case so the county and and I don't believe we get you know 67% of that Penny uh that I think goes directly to the county um so we wouldn't see the benefit of that so again there there would be some benefit on the tax side for the penny for Pasco again not knowing specifically what the rental rates are going to be and and the breakdown the magic math that happens in the state to determine what what ultimately we get um I think there is the the other type of you know thought that if you have uh this use there there's going to be people that's going to want to go out to a restaurant or go to the store so there there is a spin-off uh benefit also to the community as well again can't can't come up with a number for you and I would be a fool to try to give you a number on it but but again any any type of lodging tends to have spin-off with with people going to restaurants or going to stores you this particular type you know those that want to be self-contained and cook they'll be going to a to a store to pick up supplies for that so so there there would be some benefit there but again I I can't give you a a direct dollar benefit to that so I got a question on the lodging piece since Port Richie has no lodging facility uh within our city limits but Newport Richie wonder if we reach out to Newport rich and asking because they got some hot SS there are they getting any benefit from that or or what the county has is that all directly going to the city not the county I'm just wondering if if there's Exceptions there I can I can ask that question tomorrow to the manager maybe work that way maybe there's a little secret that they have yeah [Music] definitely and the sales tax is less than 1% of what we get if we get 67% so we don't get 67 of a penny we get much it's it's okay 67% of a pen less than 1% yeah okay with that is there any further discussion I'll uh anybody from the public like to speak on that topic see bring it back um just a quick comment the uh I think this is a great format meeting to talk about especially something large like this so I appreciate yall we're in 9:30 so we've been here quite a while so I appreciate the the effort if we would have done this last Tuesday exactly that's uh so I think we should entertain more of these when we have something of this substance that we should talk about to to actually drill down details and it helps us make better rules for the community so I appreciate yall's diligence here um is there any old business like to bring up if not look for a motion motion toour second motion second all favor I say I I