go k do we have a vacancy who's supposed to be sitting here evening ladies and gentlemen planning come to order this 20th day of November 2023 the time is 7 p.m. noted this meeting is being held in accordance with the public laws of 1975 chapter 231 an adequate notice of this meeting has been provided by notice since the Asbury Park Press the two R times posted over there in the main lobby of this building and on the municipal website we have roll call please Portman R darl absent Thomas Welsh present Christina Bon present here Demento here Barbara Boaz here Megan Massie ABS Wilson B here Hernandez here Frederick Stone here Brian paragan here welcome everyone we have an ordinance uh referral from the mayor and Council which we will do later we'll move into public hearings 14 Warf Avenue block 10 Lots four and five site plan approval bul variances and design waivers an welcome thank you pardon me I'm my voice a little hor good evening Mr chairman members of the board my name is Edward McKenna I'm here on behalf of the applicant um this is a two-part application so I'm sorry I put it up to him but God forbid I do it for myself um it's really a two-part application one is for some uh physical changes to the structure itself that uh Mr Monroe is going to cover then the second part um and I there's some new members on the board so I'd perhaps like to Enlighten them a little bit the project in question was re was re approved for four parking spaces originally three employee spaces one handicap space we came back before the board we asked to remove the three employee spaces and the board approved it and the board at the time requested that we keep the handicap space since that time we've had a number of problems with regard to that space uh near accidents accidents and complaints from pedestrians um and in fact we retain the services of an expert that you're going to hear from this evening John McCormack of dynamic engineering uh he did a in-depth study of the area in question prep a report that hopefully all the board members have a copy of um and highly recommended that that space be eliminated and that there be no parking on site we uh also reviewed the letter from tnm Engineers they also recommended that they had no disagreement with the report of Mr McCormick said it specifically in their report and lastly we uh asked the chief of police for his input and you should have a letter I think before you this evening that indicated he likewise agreed with the position that the uh space should be eliminated and actually had a request of the applicant that we cooperate operate with the police department in some site improvements that are going to happen probably down the road when I say site improvements not on our site but some work that the buau wants to do at the intersections and uh I will let you know right up front that I've discussed it with our client he has agreed that we would participate financially with the buau once the buau comes up with a plan and knows what they want to do we'd be happy to meet with the bureau and negotiate and we've never had a problem in the past in cooperating with the B on anything so we anticipate that that would also um be something that we would work out so if if you don't mind I'd like to have Mr Monroe sworn first and have him testify as to the work that's going to be done in the building okay Michael I didn't I just SAR to tells the truth truth and nothing but the truth I do Michael James Monroe 788 shury Avenue TI FSE we're happy to accept um Mr Monroe as a professional as he's testified before the board many times thank you thank you very much Michael you were retained by the uh owner in this question in this particular application to prepare certain architectural plans for changes to the structure in question correct that's correct can you go over with the board the planned Renovations and uh how they would operate see so we first started this about four years ago the whole impetus towards some of these changes the building was working successfully uh but in the winter months there's there's very few places to seat so in order to have a a winter occupancy with enough people to support a First Quality First Rate kitchen and food you have to have more than you know 20 tables to make it technically feasible so the whole impetus towards enclosing some of this uh front Tower element and putting on a vestibule and moving interior stair was towards the the goal of um making our winter occupancy um a little more successful for dining um summertime we're not really changing our our occupancy Nine Months of the Year this was strictly gered by a winter thing so got a night like tonight you want heat you have more a little more choice of where to uh where to sit um also from uh as you know when this used to be branding against you know for 100 years this always had a really uh had a funnel effect going to the back of the uh uh back of the bar towards towards the water and uh I always wanted to open up that incorporated so you can walk around you always get stuck as you walk towards the water there's a fire exit there but it's not a great situation and by enclosing under the piece of the tower the tower is a nice element I think it looks nice by enclosing that you can actually go in and circulate around I think it's going to make it a lot safer and a lot more a lot better operation um that under the tower area is used as it's used now for people standing this is just give a better circulation anytime you can have two ways around circulating and not have a dead end um it functions a lot better so I I think that's GNA be a lot safer I think moving the restaurant moving the uh moving the stair to a safer better location and also doing a little vestibule next to the tower that um also doing a seasonal enclosure on the second floor we put some doors and windows but a nice summer day we don't to open them up you get nice view of the you get some nice fresh air in there but on winter time I could close the top part of that Tower um and that that's where the extra seating would come from it already exists it's already used it's just that you know night like tonight you're not going to be up there you might have a drink up there but you're not up there for very long it's it's pretty coold um and uh so that that's the the story behind why we did these things you know three years ago and that was approved we thought they were all sensible improvements um it also gives us uh one more additional sound barrier you know from from adjacent neighbors I can keep some glass in that Tower it actually insulates the sound from the uh from the across the street on the other side of Worf Avenue but I think it's going to function a lot better all the way around um that was the building part of it the uh the site part of it we were asked to leave one handicap space um but as uh as was discussed um it became a fairly unsafe situation you're backing into an uncontrolled four-way intersection um and uh there's all kinds of problems with that intersection also um but we feel that it's a uh technically infeasible which is under the ADA requirements um if there's no parking there's no ADA requirements if there's less than one but there's also no technically feasible way to make a handicap space work there that does not have to back out on the street I just I don't have the turning movements there never was parking was never good in the old restaurant 100 years ago it's still not good now and it was abandoned for safety issue we we'd like to memorialize that just get rid of the space officially um in terms of the intersection uh there's all kinds of crazy things there's telephone poles the little sidewalks there's all kinds of cross pitches but um all four corners the sidewalk um they do have the breast curves um as part of our last application was approval we put in uh um uh an ADA pad and a curb uh access and we have a new accessible root shown getting from from there to the building um all four corners of that street they do have depressed curves there's there's issues with all of them um and while we think it it's it's good for us to make some sort of contribution I'm not sure the money's not better spent somewhere else in town to make some other handicap spaces or improve that intersection there's a there's just some issues with cross pitches and we can talk about it later I don't need to go into it in detail but there's two very Street Steeps you know war and Union are very Steep and when you're doing an ADA access you can't have more than a 2% cross pitch uh and you design for one and a half percent well that doesn't exist um there's all kinds of practical things that we can't move you know we're not going to regrade the street we're not going to the town has just done some repairs on one of the corners um they just did a curb they just did some pavement replacement and improved one of the situations but even that there's know no one's really got a a perfect situation it's it's the wild west of intersections it was never designed it's been there for over a hundred years and there's lots of practical things that make it difficult but like I said we were happy to make a contribution to work that out with the town and maybe it's uh providing a couple of crosswalks uh but some of these things just can't be fixed I mean because it's just of the slopes that exist they're not practical but you can always make things better and and the purpose of the Ada is to is to make situations better um to the extent that is practical Michael can we go back to the building disc for a second yeah I just like to explain to have you explain to the board excuse me um you're gonna have sliding glass doors up there is that correct that's correct sliding or folding and and you're gonna have Windows that you'll be able to open but on the is on the Westerly side uh the plan is to have the Windows remain intact essentially go closed yes so so that that would help buffer any noise from the adjoining properties yes on that side okay yes I think that's going to be a big Improvement it'll still be open and Airy it'll still look good um but it's going to provide a nice barrier be around and there'll be some nice symmetry between the first and second floors where the tower is going to be created that's correct fin any questions architecturally for Mr Monroe anyone from the board have any questions for Mr Monroe the end of his testimony it can be I was going to go through the I don't have to go through the engineering letter we I went through it in detail in my response letter um I don't know if we need to go through it all but we can talk about it I mean yeah if you want to go through hours of operation and things such as that we can do it I mean daily trash pickup it's uh twice a week recyclable pickup um the hours are normal what I call normal bar hours so to speak um and other than that I mean the the place functions very well we've had no parking problems employees Park all the people that come to uh the site that do not have I Gotta Laugh You have no parking problems because you blocked off the parking lot pardon me you you don't have any parking problems because you don't have any parking anymore I mean the parking lot has been taken over by picnic tables well yeah but remember we were only required to have one spot I know but how often have you driven by there you could actually pull in there I mean it's blocked off almost all the time no that Mr chairman I totally agree with you the reason it was blocked off is for exactly why we're here tonight I get it so I mean I'm just saying it that's why you have no parking problems well no no but we're saying even our employees and and people that come there that's sure got Globe Court you've got the East Side Lots you've got uh and and you've got um Low Court East Side lots and you've got some other spaces Street spaces in that area that seem to function pretty well so operationally are there any changes from the way you're currently operating from a standpoint of hours and things of that sort no okay then unless someone's got questions for that and we'll open it up and I don't think we need to review that what's your opinion here on the their responses to your letter uh I think um as far as the access and the uh the ada8 parking and the intersection all that I think we should wait until the traffic engineer put on T So aside from that um as far as the number of new tables how many new tables are you proposing there's no new tables it's just ones that are used seasonally there there's always tables up there um question you just can't sit up there at night like tonight so during the winter time instead of being 100% um our winter time might be 20% 25% we're trying to get that to 30 35% what we'd have the summertime just to hit a critical mass so we can keep a decent staff year round so this is a practical thing it doesn't change anything there's tables and standing area up there nothing changes that the winter time there's a lot less use and this this will be a diminus increase in wintertime use even but it's going to be a major increase in terms of getting a few more dinner places so we can support the kitchen otherwise we can't keep a First Rate kitchen year round and that's we're trying to go for a better clientele and a better food that's what drove the project originally uh so it's there's no there's no new tables um in the winter time there'll be maybe an extra 20 or 25 seats for the winter time when it's very lightly used and what what about the outside what with the the the black top area what are your changes not changing anything with a black top when when this originally was approved we were going to uh lift up part of the area and level it off and put a few more steps I'm thinking my thinking since the steps are bad that's one more place to trip there's no reason to do that so it's been functioning well it's one nice gradual slope over time I think we're going to replace that black top with pavers and I even say the notes you know papers and we're going to make it look nicer and make it feel less like a parking lot because that but it's um it's a nice even pitch we have a barrier free access that that goes up on the side by the fence that gets us up to to the upper level I mean it really functions well I I figured much better not to mess with it so I'm leaving that's the only change from last time is actually I'm doing less and uhh so I think it'll I think it'll function a lot better it's a lot smarter Greg and and really in direct response to your question it's really not going to change the occupancy it's not as though we're gonna enclose that area and add a lot of new tables in fact an actual attendance that'll probably be less because what happens is people go up there and they congregate and stand and have cocktails in their hand Etc now they're going to have tables to go and sit at and we anticipate with the additional use of the four months we can afford to offset that by having perhaps fewer occupants in there during the summer right so your your testimony is basically it's not going to be any more intense than it is in the summer that's correct um the other thing I wanted to just bring up the trash enclosure what's the plan with trash enclosure um it's a covered enclosure has room for recycling and trash there is one container outside now it's a grease container but it's a sealed grease container that a lot of these restaurants have and it has to be located in proximity they come and they pump it out but it's it's a it's a seal contained thing it's not something that's going to drip grease what we're proposing is to put a fence in it in front of it instead of changing the trashing closer and have that match the fence that's in between the property right now it's a six foot white stockade fence and then another trash enclosure on the adjacent property is a little bit of a brick and block but I thought we' put a a piece of white PVC gate fencing in the gate and that way no one would see this thing as they come by um but it would it would function it's got to be within distance of a pump out hose so I I can't move it behind the trash enclosure I think that's a good compromise and I I don't think it has to be covered because it's just it's not going to be a grease slick around it the reason we cover trash enclosures over food establish m is not having all the water go down in the dumpster and then have it have a grease lick R out and have food and that's a good reason um if if the board's not happy with that I feel that that fence will solve the problem we could change the enclosure but there's there's no reason to cover it I think it'll look good and no one's going to see it okay and the fence whatever you proposed would comply with ordinance requirements absolutely yes and we'll review that if this is approved it as a condition of approval absolutely I think that's really all I have for this one from the public have any questions west side of the second floor you say you're going to have uh Windows you gonna put stationary windows or you just going to put Windows that can be open but not open windows that can be open but not open anyone else on the board anyone from the public have any questions for Mr Monroe please come up Mr mcken if you could share that microphone over here please sir please um limit your questions to Mr Monroe about his testimony we are not taking comments right now we're simply taking questions regarding the testimony if you could please I didn't understand that originally when it came out but I'll Li up myself okay then we'll have plenty of time for comments later if you'd please tell us your name and address yes my name is Harry Martin live at 11 if we could just pull the mic closer to you are you going to ask questions now I will oh okay you want to raise your right hand swear tell the truth the whole truth is nothing but the truth I did my name is Harry Martin I live at 11 Mor Avenue Apartment 6 immediately across from Red barfe um I thought I heard you say that if you don't have an a parking space then the Ada law does not app the Ada require yeah the Ada is just it's a percentage of what you have for parking so the the parking originally was for employee use only we eliminated all the employee parking and we were asked leave one employee handicap space that was never ever intended to be a public Ada space it was a employee only space that was stipulated in the original resolution because it was too dangerous we realized even back then that uh um all those would be employee only spaces I'm afraid I didn't hear an answer to my question the question was If you eliminate the 8 parking space does that eliminate all of the provisions of the adaa as applicable to your establishment oh no of course not say no no I'm saying we're talking about just the the requirement for the parking space so we're still required to provide proper door swings which we do we a proper accessible route to restur yeah the r yes ramp accessibility so and um we're still required to spend a certain amount of the money for its ad Ada upgrade So 20% of any project you have to spend towards um ADA requirements so you're never exempt from ADA requirements the federal law um but it's a it's not a suicide P for things that you can't change there's technically in feasible limitations placed on that and they want you to make things better but they don't want to make you spend more than 20% and they want you to do things that are technically feasible so I was strictly talking about ADA respon if no compl spaces were required that's what the handicap Place space was for the employees do you have Ada access to the second floor no that's not required it's not required we have we have accessibility to um more than half of our seating so accessibility is not required uh to every place as long as you have accessibility you you're providing equal services on different places very good that's the end of my question I will have further comments later great Mr mro just for the record the 2019 resolution says that the Ada parking space is for public use is not restricted to employees only that was my recollection so I stand corrected on okay so anyone else in the public have any questions for Mr Monroe okay let's move forward no i' just like to agree with you Mr chairman it was public yeah definitely I mean I'm reading reading it right in front of me it's definitely public Ada space yeah but the and and what I said at the outset was that we had I apologize I'll get the mic back what I said at the outset was that we had virtually little to any demand and anybody that used it complained and said this is really stupid why would you ask people to park excuse me I just any other questions for NOP Mr Monro if not I'd like to call up John McCormack he's the traffic engineer I'm going to raise your right hand you swear to tell the truth all truth nothing but the truth yes I do been here I have been here before uh John McCormack MCC r m I'm a principal with Dynamic traffic 1904 Main Street in Lake comoo I believe at our last meeting perhaps we authenticated you as an expert so please continue thank you Mr chairman yeah thank you Mr chairman so um John you were the individual that was commissioned in this case by the owner to do a traffic study specifically to for the board tonight as far as the elimination of that handicapped parking space correct that's correct and you did a very complete analysis and produced a report that's been submitted to the board correct correct without reviewing each and every part of it can you give us a the John McCormack summary um an expedited one of the uh of your report absolutely uh thank you so uh as i' mentioned we did a site safety evaluation of the property uh it was published almost a year ago now uh December of 22 um this report considers the physical and operational aspects of the parking space and the driveway uh we looked at driveway location we looked at the adjacent roadway and the intersection conditions we looked at the sight lines and we looked at the on-site geometry uh of the u-turns and some of the things that Mike uh already touched on I'll jump right to the summary of findings basically it's page seven of my report has a bulleted list of the findings I'll give you a grouped uh summary of that so as you've already mentioned there's a little bit of History here with this there's been safety concerns near crashes vehicle pedestrian conflicts all uh in regards to Vehicles trying to back out of this narrow angled parking lot crossing the sidewalk and backing into a very active and at sometimes high speed interection of warp and River viic the safety concerns were acknowledged a couple of years ago by the burough resulted in the removal of those couple of uh parking spots I'll read you one quick quote item 11 of that approval the changes in the parking lot will eliminate an unsafe condition caused by cars backing out of the lot onto Warf Avenue so it was identified back then um we've identified since then similar concerns with the one remaining spot which is why uh the management has taken that spot out of service uh for Fears of having a crash a a pedestrian incident or a vehicle into the building any number of things that have they have seen in the past we're trying to eliminate that OPP that opportunity to exist so that spot was taken out of service on purpose um I'll go through a couple just high level descriptions of the intersection uh the driveway location it's not safe in the middle of the intersection um it's it's along the corner radius it's contrary to Industry design practices good design practice and specifically it's contrary to the burrow the county and the state uh driveway location uh guidelines as everyone knows Warf Avenue relatively High rate of speed for a few reasons it's downhill from Front Street down there's a lack of parking in front of the building so there's no friction there so Vehicles just uh you know get on the gas or use the hill to to accelerate that approach is not stop controlled so there's nothing stopping those vehicles coming around the corner and that corner is probably one of the biggest biggest Corner radiuses in the town it's it's almost like a 50 foot radius it's a sweeping turn uh maybe it was intentional uh because it is the route to the ER but it's it's out of it's out of character for typical intersections in the burrow and it leads to vehicle speed coming around the corner that gets to the sight lines sight lines are not adequate there uh in in twofold they're not adequate for the vehicles traveling on Warf for that motorist to be able to see the driveway and react accordingly if someone pulls out of the driveway or even worse backs out of the driveway that that stopping sight distance for that motorist is only about 100 feet ashto industry standards uh suggest it should be at least double that similarly if someone to were to pull out of the driveway or back out even worse uh those drivers can't see up I I'll call it up the hill up Warf um they only have about 100 foot a sight distance from that driveway location to see that oncoming traffic that's about a third of what the ashto recommends for an intersection site distance as Mike touched on briefly that the onsite conditions are tough the dimensions are very narrow they're so narrow that the parking was always uh on an angle that's how narrow the parking area is that angled parking and the narrowness facilitates or you know makes people think I should be backing out of this parking lot then they say I'm not backing out of this parking lot onto that intersection so they try to kurn from an angled parked position which is virtually impossible considering the narrowness of the parking area uh I was told they've had incidents where there's vehicles have backed into the building and attempt to make this K turn so they could pull out facing forward so um the backing out of the driveway just further exacerbates you know any and all the safety conditions uh that arise from the vehicle speeds and the geometric issues of the intersection so just in summary the evaluation has concluded that the use of the parking area is undesirable and substandard from a traffic safety standpoint um it's my opinion the parking space should be removed that would be in furtherance of the parking removal the burrow implemented a couple years ago it'll allow us to utilize the existing two parking spaces that are diagonal to the building and work with the board engineer and the board on a on a contribution to improve The Pedestrian facilities at that intersection um the removal of that space will eliminate the unsafe condition not only for the motorists leaving the property also the motorist traveling Warf and the pedestrians walking the intersection that's the the high level summary John once again it also violates B standards County standards and state standards the location of the driveway in the middle of the intersection on the corner radius violates all those standards yes any questions for Mr McCormick Mr McCormack if it's hard to disagree with you that the that the situation there from a pedestrian standpoint isn't good how would you improve pedestrian safety in that intersection crosswalks would help um there are as you see at the hospital there are activated P Crossing uh indications that could be implemented there's a number of things that could be done but as Mike mentioned vertically that intersection is challenged so that is the challenge with the Ada but there are things that can be done the ramps could be improved to a degree that they are much easier to navigate the crosswalker could be marked simple signing and striping the cross streets could be you know could be refreshed the word stop can be put on the pavement um any and all little intersection treatments would help okay thank you do anyone from the board have any questions for Mr McCormack I I do go ahead um thank you um it is a m there walk all the time I have a question about the the existing Ada parking spot um I know it's from what you've said and what I read it's it's really a useless spot is there any place in that area on the street any place that it could a another spot could be put um I'm looking at the picture it's it's not about the spot itself it's about how do you get I understand I understand that it's still I hate to see any Ada parking spot you well well used or not well used uh removed in Red Bank we have so few to begin with um so is there any any way that a a spot could be put in within the within you know walking distance short walking distance and not straight up the hill I think the two spots that are diagonally across from the building are fantastic op options for anyone that is going to patronize right but there's two and now you're taking away a third one that could have been used um uh so I'm just or you're asking us to take it away we haven't taken it away yet um but I'm just trying to figure out if a an an additional spot could be placed and is that our our place to look for it or is it the police department is it yours to suggest I don't know I can answer that for you oh I figur no I'm not being fous we had two meetings before coming here this evening with the police department yes they are going to look at it also and they're going to see if there's another spot that they would like to recommend to the baron Council to designate as a handicap spot as as long as as long as this is not just going to disappear Into Thin Air correct and and be replaced by a a handic and I can't even speak tonight handicap space because we as I said we had so few and if you read the uh the letter from the chief of police when he talks in there about doing an upgrade and maybe including it in the road program that's specifically one of the things that we discussed okay is there another Street spot that could be taken and given for handicapped access good so so it's not as though it will dissolve for ever we're hopeful that we can come up with some solution that we'll be willing to contribute to yeah hasn't just floated away and is hasn't disappeared yeah we just it's it's so dangerous and and by the way I hate to even mention this but um I was in my role as an attorney I did a lot of work for municipalities representing the mammoth joint Insurance Fund which is Red Bank was always a part of that our job was to defend towns on claims against them um if if the burough is on notice that there's a dangerous condition and doesn't do something about it we are putting ourselves at risk so what I'm suggesting to you is I'm not surprised that the Chief came out with this recommendation because once once we are on notice of any dangerous condition whether it's a severely bad pothole or something else but the burrow is notified of it you you have to act on it so this is important for us as Red Bank residents also yeah I agree thank thank you also that hasn't been used in quite a while already over a year yeah that that hasn't even been really it's been covered for over a year it's more the principle at the um as far as I'm concerned because as I said if you look around this town the the number of handicap spaces is extremely small and we could use more because there are more of us who are getting to meet them anyone El from the board have any questions for Mr McCormick anyone from the public have any questions for Mr McCormick come on up yeah Mr Martin you're still under o grab that microphone from Mr Mna please speak right into the microphone please did I hear a comment that the Ada parking space that currently exists would unavailable for the past year at least I believe right as as the applicant testified they took it out of service because it was an they considered it an unsafe condition I understand their rationale but uh and the B unilaterally they had agre well the bur cited them for that correct you got cited for that yeah which is more the reason why I think this came back as well it was it was dealt with through C so they attempted it unilaterally as soon as it became apparent they were cited thank you anyone else in the public have any questions from Mr McCormick okay let's continue thank you Mr sh chman that's the conclusion of Our Testimony I didn't mean to overation because it is twofold number one it's the improvements to the structure but number two it's also the elimination of the space and um I respectfully submit to you that with everything the the proofs you have before us before you this evening we have the agreement of the the police we have the agreement of uh the traffic engineer this study that was performed we have the fact that it violates every standard uh of not only the buau of Red Bank but also the county and the state to have that space uh and we're just strongly suggesting that not only are we putting ourselves and the safety of our residents pedestrians our uh automobile operators and the people going to the ER Riverview I I but also indicate that I did have a discussion with representatives of Riverview about this and they wholeheartedly not surprisingly suggested that they would be strongly in favor of this so I just wanted to um use that as a closing remark in connection with that that part of the application and again please accept my apologies for my uh my horseness this evening I'm I'd love to tell you it's because of something great that happened but it's not it's just a man getting older that's uh okay thank you Mr mcken if anyone from the public would like to comment on this application you may now come forward and uh make a comment we if need be we'll limit comments to no more than five minutes oh I'm sorry that's Mr Martin welcome back you're still under oath thank you um and I do have a letter from another Resident of my building if there's any way that can be introduced into the record I'm afraid not we can't cross-examine somebody's letter who's not here that's a shame tell them that we try um the noise issue I'm glad to address um to some extent that the Mr Martin can you just bend the mic closer to you for everybody to hear you and for to show up on the recording we really need you right in there I'm to everybody is is this better I'm glad that they addressed or at least um made some aside to the noise issue um the noise is incredible they flagrantly and frequently violate the noise ordinance which I have here um and of which you're undoubtedly familiar but we can ENT that is record as well but it is incredible um I can go to an interior bathroom in my apartment no the only two external walls are at either end and still here the music and frequently it runs to 130 for instance August 26 August 28th September 3rd September 8th September 9th October 6th October 28th I could make a list of a hundred of these it is outrageous and the design of the building is such what can they do they need to amarate this noise issue because they are flagrantly violating the ordinance of the burrow in which they are present the second thing I'd like to raise is the issue of with the portes um here for instance is a picture uh you'll notice the garbage cans in the portapotty um there have been in the past as many as three patties at a time one must question why they need to be present apparently the bathroom facilities in the restaurant are inadequate to address the crowds that are present um and so they need to be supplemented by this in food establishment um those are my two issues U I'm not alone in these concerns but unfortunately I can't present that to you um noise is incredible astonishing now not always indeed some of the operation of the restaurant is perfectly fine but the live performances tend to be extraordinarily loud they go to 130 typically um and even the c music can be played at very high volumes late into the even that's all I have to say thank you um Tommy what time is the noise ordinance kick in well it's different and it's not specific read you can me and Sean have spoke about this because the noise ordance covers everything from and everything kind of sits under like when you can work as a contractor so I know that we had talked about it over the last couple months something that has to be tightened up and does need to be tightened up may I read yes this is um section 4 50-1 part B any place of public accommodation that plays any music whether pre-recorded or live for the entertainment of its guests or invitees shall close all windows doors and exterior openings and shall cease all exterior transmission of broadcast of such music at 11: p.m. Sunday through Thursday and 12: midnight on Friday Saturday and days preceding recognized federal holidays this subsection shall not otherwise liit or modify the applicability or enforceability of any other section of this chapter this subsection shall not be out to any houses of worship while conducting religious Services Mr mcken do you have any comments on Mr Martin's comments no I don't and and please Mr Martin don't be um upset with this thought but we provided notice to a great number of people who all were afforded the opportunity to be here this evening I have a letter from one of them sir they don't accept letters no well we don't know that no one else is here yet pardon me we don't know that no one else from the neighborhood is here yet we also have people that are in support of the application here if if you want we'll have them come up and talk about Mr M you know that this is not a going to be an election no no to be that whatever the ordinances are have to be enforced oh Mr Lexi I'm not I'm not disagreeing with that please I'm not show up better to adhering to the ordinance at all times as a condition of this approval I I don't know I have let's they should come up and and be sworn then and ask I'll ask them that question because I you it's interesting that I mean I wrote down about the noise and if the ordinance is not to open any Windows spaces or holes in the building whatsoever while live music is being played after a certain amount of time I don't think it's unreasonable for the applicant to testify that that will be the case and that that can be a condition of disapproval music yes you want to sworn in yeah sure I have a question for Mr Martin right hand Mar where to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yeah tell us who you are and where you live uh Paul marot uh 26 can hear you Paul marot 26 herb Road Middletown and Paul you're uh the owner an operator of the facility in question correct correct and you heard uh Mr vanzo just raising a question with regard to the operation yes and can you respond to his inquiry yes and in that saying real close uh with the live music and as they said the uh uh Sunday through Thursday uh it has to end at 11: uh we end it at 10: and on Saturdays it ends at 11: always uh so you're okay with complying with this ordinance stipulation of a condition of your approval absolutely and also as as being neighborly uh when we went back from one of these other applications there was there were a couple other guys we introduced ourselves I will give them my personal cell phone number my manager cell phone number whatever we could do to be neighborly I offered to come to the meetings uh whatever we could do um we had some other incidents where we even identifi if it's uster if it's not you know just with people we we want help we always have so I have both my managers here uh we would give all three of our cell phone numbers and do whatever we could to be neighborly to help right I appreciate that I mean I have no personal experience with it because I'm in bed long before then but um that I think I mean it means a lot to me so I I appreciate that so is it your testimony then that the testimony that at 1 1:30 in the morning there was music getting through to his home is not correct no I mean live music no live music or even Amplified music no not not not that I not that I'm aware of and if and if we were to get a call we would we would we would identify tonight you're aware of it that tonight I'm aware of it okay good chairman I'm aware of it um so we've received complaints and normally after hours that's G that's Police Department's responsibility to answer those type of complaints but we do receive complaints and there is music that comes from the old downtown that is as loud if not louder at times that we know that has gone past 11 midnight we've gotten the calls so I mean I'm not not saying that you're not that may not be coming from them but there is also music on the other side that's also could be an issue at times probably more so and and we are also aware of another facility right in that area that now sometimes plays till 3: in the morning morning and we're going to be dealing with that with the police department not us another organization but very close to where Mr Martin lives I I appreciate your testimony something for Mr mik for Mr Martin yes have you filed complaints with the police department initially when the U Bar was first introduced and this happened uh yes I did I called the police repeatedly this was a number of years ago um pretty ineffectively uh it's a low priority item for the police pretty soon you feel like uh you shouldn't call and I basically gave up but there is no question none whatsoever that the Red Rock Bar is the source of this noise I live right adjacent to this thing and it's gone on I can give you hundreds of dates we go back the noise is incredible have you have you um have you filed complaints more recently I mean you signed a bunch of dates no I have not I thought that this was my best opportunity um if I can resume calling I hope it would be effective um the only reason I stopped calling is because it appeared to be ineffective again I thought this was a good for to raise this issue since they're modifying the building so that they could address the sound issue one of the things is there is a volume control turn it down and don't tell me that you're always stopping at 11 o'clock because it is simply not true well if this is a good opportunity to raise this now during the the the revision to their plan and I think we've made it very clear and they have testified now most recently that they will abide by the ordinance how how can we enforce that you call the police department and can I cite their names in particular yeah if you want to but if you're the police you know yeah well I mean this as as Mr Welsh said this ordinance could stand some some attention and we'll get to that but I think if you were to call and say there's noise you could identify who you think it where it's coming from and whether it's coming from there or not I don't think you need to give names if you want to it's fine but identifying the location or locations that you think the noise is coming from is what you need to do as long as the noise is within the noise ordinance I'm perfectly happy great but I've been very very unhappy for the last several years well I very much appreciate you coming out because it's coming out and and bringing this up in public allows us an opportunity to address it as best we can Port potty yeah yeah the porta potty what's what's the deal you need the port I'm assuming that there are nights that they get very crowded whether it be Fourth of July whatever the case may be and you put these down by the sidewalk here um yeah that's a very bad place for portter podes I understand why you're putting them there so drag them out in the morning when they need to come I realize that the guys will only go a certain number of feet I just went through this at my house so they drug the drag the portapotty from the backyard up my gravel driveway to the street which then I had to rake for two hours and got a blister because putting all the gravel back so I understand why you're putting them by the street but it looks terrible we we could work on to clean it up and get it out when it comes in and maybe come up with a little enclosure and by not having the parking and everything else we could work to do I want to spend money to make that parking a lot look better and and do you need them all the time or on special events just it costs a lot to have them picked up dropped off it's it's it's gets very expensive I can't hear but maybe we could do what you said is pull it in and out we don't need it every day sorry so as a condition of approval would you submit a plan to our engineer about how you would solve the visual problem of the Porta Poes yes okay Mr chairman problem is with the porter potties is because he's got such a larger occupancy outside during the summer the water closet and what he's got inside does doesn't make a difference it's not calculated it's calculated for the occupancy that he has inside the building so he it would be overwhelming to even maybe 25 or 30 people on that parking lot would overwhelm what he's got in there which is why the needs porta potties to come out there when of course fans events and everything else it would just be too overwhelming if you just have more more bathrooms inside you know I wish you're doing thisel it seems like that could be part of it actually if if if I might mrto actually what he's doing is he's just covering is enclosing existing space that's occupied so it's just a minor yeah it is big deal no I mean but but to to their credit uh on the other hand according based on uh the discussion earlier they without knowing this Martin was going to be here tonight or complain they took it upon themselves to design it in such a way as to impede the noise going over towards Mr Martin's building I'm not saying it's gonna solve his problems I'm saying the noise is incredible okay okay Mr Martin please we've heard enough I've heard enough I've heard enough I'm sure you have but I have a question I know they written letters for me yeah there we the the owner has people in the building that he's friends with that don't complain I'm not I'm not saying that this isn't an issue not to not to dismiss Mr Martin I'm beyond the noise at this point we've done in my opinion everything we can do as a board to address the noise the portapotty is a self-inflicted success problem that you've created for yourself which is great for you I get it it is very unsightly to see the Porta poot out by theci you've got a logistical issue you you have to deal with and the building department will will weigh in if they have to about your bathroom capacity that's not within the pro of the board but you submitting a plan to our engineer where you're going to put them in properly screen them so we don't have to look at them when we're not at your establishment is within our purview fair enough yes okay Mr chairman yes if you were to take those Porta poodies and move them against the fence parking lot the joining parking lot because you're not going to need the curb cut anyway I'm assuming you're going to keep the curb cut there you proposing to keep the curb cut into the parking lot to unloc okay so if you were you're you're gonna if you get the approvals for the to get rid of the handicap spot which is already tables on anyway why couldn't you move the Porta John's to that corner closer to where that one table is next to the next to the garbage enclosure so they're not right there on the parking lot then if you put them over there you wouldn't even be able to see them from the intersection from across the street or anywhere really could you do that yes you have room they have room for it there good it's just a matter of moving that one table area you know and then if you did go to use your tents for when you guys put up the tents have to figure out something else put them on the other side you know I mean that might help just put together your plan and submit it okay did you have another question or comment yeah I'll pass does anyone from the public have any other comments or questions this is your opportunity just one thing um as far as the um if if the board does Grant the approval to eliminate the parking space um as far as the contribution or I have notes on that okay you want to take the lead on that or I I tell you what I would like I I would like if the board were to Grant a favorable uh ruling on this application I would like it to be subject to a developers agreement with the mayor and councel regarding whatever your level of contribution to improve the crosswalks The Pedestrian cross crossing whether it's um as Mr McCormack mentioned you're going to you're going to put in crosswalks or improve the ramps or other intersection improvements you want a number from me now to wrap this up tonight I'll give it to you but I have a feeling you don't no no I don't because I I I don't either which is why my number would be outrageous so because Lord knows what I'll do with we we'll really do some nice things with that money so if if if we were to move in that direction I I would want some agreement not we're going to work with you down the road I would like an agreement a little stronger than that as a condition of approval and can we put a timeline on that maybe uh like a two-year that it has to be completed within like a twoyear or contribution within it I mean it'll be in that would be in the developers agreement so to to for them to for them to move forward the develop agreement has to be in place the terms of which is not us let me um I'd like to respond to that I don't have any keep in mind I learned everything I know about developer agreements from you so just be careful well um I I thought I was very skilled in that area I'm not so sure anymore uh only because I've done I'm not sure on have four of them recently and uh one of them we started talking about in April I don't haven't signed yet uh and I I prepared it in June we still to nudge on your behalf if if I have no problem being nudged no no we're not gonna nudge you we're gonna nudge the the the the powers to be to help you get that done if the bo grants approval sh and I will nudge as best we can to to not drag that out that unreasonably that would be great because I've got people that email me every day clients where's my developers agree I only promise to help with this one okay last chance ladies and gentlemen if you have a comment or a question regarding this application just just one thing I get paid by the hour as far as as part of that contribution I would suggest um having the applicant contribute a survey and a design for the improvements to the intersection um to to sort of speed that up that process up and make sure that um those improvements will be done uh you know in almost in conjunction with the um removal of the parking space well two things I wrote down survey and engineer drawing here earlier um so I I agree that we would love to see your thoughts Mr McCormack I'd love to see a drawing I don't know that I agree with the improvements being done at the same time because that that may very well be part of a larger scope of work that the town does in the road program so I I'm okay with it not being concurrent with the the removal of the spot or other work done once the developers agreement done I'm I'm comfortable if it's a year before the road work gets done we don't want to do anything hastily if a year down the road the road program happens and we're really able to do something nice understood and Dan that's exactly what we uh spoke to the police department about and and in fact in the chief's in the chief's letter it says specifically we're going to be looking at this in conjunction with the road program so Greg it might be six months or a year before the burough moves for moves forward with the road program but if they want this to be part of that we're fine we're we're ready to sit down tomorrow or six months from now whatever whatever whatever works for the burough okay okay anything else that's it wison you lean forward like you want to say something thank you uh have a motion to close the public portion of the meeting no moved second all in favor any opposed or abstain would anyone like to make a motion regarding this application yeah I'll move to Grant the is there a second a second subject to a number of conditions subject to the the compliance um of the the noise ordinance um submission of submission of the plan submission of agreement of a developers agreement with the mayor and counsel as well as the pter poies towards the moving the portter potties and providing a plan as such to that uh to the engineer as well as anything else in the engineers letter yeah I I don't think there was anything else in there gr was there no I don't think so the only other thing was the uh the trashing question as well yeah yeah we're doing that yeah okay Thomas L yes yes Sam Ando as much as it burns my you know what because you closed that yes L Demento yes Barb Boz yes Megan Massie wion B yes Hernandez yes frerick St yes ran car yes Mr Martin thank you for coming out thank you for speaking up it does make a difference I hope that the police will back I'm not giving you my cell phone number so you can't call me that late at night but call them yes I'm I'm not unfort not hard to find thank you next up we have 52 White Street block 30 lot 46 Red Bank investment liit in the ccd2 zone for site plan approval welcome Mr Anderson was that five minutes I look my watchat crazy I don't know what happened was gonna be five minutes he told me would be five minutes for the love God turn microphone I see what you're missing years you Mr Anderson good evening John Anderson the law firm of FAL San Filippo and mil behalf of the appli it's Red Bank investment limited um a board attorney reviewed service order we have jurisdiction all right this is 62 White Street it's the former home of hobby Masters it's located directly across the street from the White Street parking lot it's fully developed existing two-story building not proposing to expand that building in any way uh but it is presently vacant and we're proposing to tenant it with a permitted use uh tenant is a outfit called inclusion p Pathways they have a concept to do called a robo Cafe um rooc Cafe is um kind of a I don't know an amalgamation of a few different components shall we say it's one use but it uh it brings in folks with special needs and it offers vocational uh training opportunities in the Food Service uh food preparation Food Service Industries uh and it also provides an opportunity for socialization folks special needs interacting with uh with patrons of the cafe the idea is to bring people in possibly give them a small meal it's it's more of snacks light fair not a full service type thing uh but also have them stay and there's some some games and some opportunities to uh to build Lego type Creations um robotic type Creations recreate some video games uh ping pong tables things of that nature so just just getting folks more comfortable with one another uh and I think that's a two-way street right getting getting folks that uh don't have special needs more comfortable with folks that do have special needs and getting those with special needs more comfortable interacting uh in the community in a work environment uh we're going to have 28 seats they're shown on the plan reality is I don't think that they will necessarily always be occupied so it's not really this organization's Prime Revenue model uh they do make money by working through Medicaid and billing for some Services they give to those with special needs so they are uh essentially for profit other than a not for profit but they're doing good works um you know things that I think we all agree are are in the benefit of the community and the general welfare uh we are asking for major site plan approval that's solely because of the parking variant because there's nothing happening on the site there's no site improvements uh presently there five spaces and the former retail use would have needed 37 so it's already very uh very much deficient in that regard what we're going to be doing does increase the parking uh requirement because portions of the space are going to be used for seating and they have a a higher um allowance on a per square foot basis but we're offsetting that somewhat by allowing for a shared use of 10 parking spaces that are on adjacent lots that are owned um by our clients entity Red Bank investment or related entities that are also uh owned and operated by the Bowers family uh who owns quite a few Holdings in that area Mr Anderson if I could just interrupt you for a minute not that I don't love listening to you talk but and despite what I said earlier we don't get paid so let's let's jump to if it's okay with you um I'd like to hear ours of operation number of employees and let's then let's jump to the variances very good I I'm assuming no one from the board or the public has any issue with this use in general we're also obviously very familiar with the bers family and and and personally from my standpoint have been thrilled with everything they've done in town for many years despite what someone said to me today about the city center I actually like that very much um such a big improvement over what was there originally so if we can jump to hours of operations number of employees and the variances let's do that certainly so we're gonna have Mr Yellen Ross Yellen sworn where tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes I do us where you live sure I live in uh manalan New Jersey you our address oh I'm sorry uh it's my first time three Waterville Road man alapa New Jersey thank you all right Mr Yellen the question posed by the board chair is what are your hours of operation at Robo Cafe sure uh so the hours of operation for the general public would be weekdays um a between after 3 o'clock so it'll be um evenings um and weekends um pretty much the entirety um of the day uh both Saturdays and Sundays um if you wanted specific hours I'm gonna I'm just gonna say maybe between days maybe your can you do that approximately maybe between 3 and 8 on weekdays so 3 p p.m. to 8:00 P.M weekdays and then what do you think on weekend um Mo most most of the time on weekend so pretty much the whole day on weekend done 24 hours oh no no no no not 24 hours um you know one one of the interesting things is you know folks with special needs we try you know we don't want them to be up too late um so I would probably say you know probably till eight on weekends um you know and then maybe opening up around 10: maybe 10 to 8 10 to 8 on the weekend I would say so approxim prior to 300 p.m. Monday through Friday do you anticipate staff and employees to perhaps be on site yeah so prior to 3M um between 9: and 3: that's when we would have our training program um for the folk for the employees and volunteers that work um at the uh Cafe um you know people with special needs do need enhanced enhanced training um so that's why there would you know be you know some more you know hours of training than most other type of uh facilities there's social socialization training in order to get them to interact you know with the public and that's part of working I'm training them in food service and you know different things like that and also even steming down to some of the um the robotics um you know opportunity um exhibits that we're going to have uh there hence the name Robo Robo Cafe and how many people say between that nine and three period Monday through Friday how many people do you anticipate being on site on an average day from 9:00 to 3 between 9 and right so what what's interesting is um I want to to clarify the folks with special needs do not drive 95% of people with special needs autism Asbergers people high functioning are not able to drive they would be dropped off um by um a van um for small man not a special van mini small mini 7day passenger um or their parents and picked up um so we're anticipating as far as folks with special needs that would be there at the program approximately 20 um you can even say 203 but it it wouldn't at all affect parking because it would be first of all the cafe wouldn't be open then during the training um you know so it's you know and it would just be them and then um for the folks with special needs and we would have a couple um employees who are providing supervision and you know training these folks with special needs so maybe three or four um individual staff members that would be training them okay and how about U administrative type employees that might work in the office on the second floor about how many of those yeah absolutely we're looking maybe three or four administrative folks on the second floor right so just kind of summarizing that the the various components maybe three to four on the second floor working at any time and administrative roles maybe three to four supervising downstairs and they'd be working with perhaps 20 to 30 individuals uh with special needs to train them uh to prepare food and serve food at the cafe yep training and preparation other um other questions of this uh this witness I can go over a couple basic operational details with him that's fine I don't have any other questions anyone else have any questions for Mr Yen let's go over the variances or you have if things come up but we'll um we'll have you sit in the gallery Ross and we're going to bring Mr Simpson over to my table stay here we'll give you a mic then here trade mics sure have Mr Simpson sworn please good evening I'm raised your right hand you swear to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth I do the board accept Mr Simpson's credentials as a registered architect and licensed professional planner yes we did hey Stefon his past appearances of course Mr Simpson uh you familiar with the site in question very the Red Bank ordinances Yes master plan yes all right you prepared the site plan dated October 18th 2023 and last revised to November 1st 2023 yes can we have that marked as A1 all right Mr Simpson would you describe the site please certainly uh the site is largely taken up by the building it's a roughly 9,000 sareet site but most of the site is either taken out by the parking spaces behind the building that are part of that aeration that John described earlier of parking that belongs to miscellaneous buildings around that location largely owned by the B uh family um there are spaces adjacent to the building and those are available the building said takes up about 9,000 excuse me the parking lot is about the total say is about 9,000 square feet total buildings square footage is about 9300 sare ft and what's the applicant proposing to do at the site from a you architectural perspective Mr Simpson from architectural perspective we have some improvements we have to do on the first floor that can be seen on our sheet a 101 um those improvements largely have to do with building doesn't currently meet uh accessibility requirements so we have to make some modifications at the street um the streetscape in order to provide for that uh inquired accessibility once those improvements are made you'll be able to enter into the building uh for the robo Cafe section on the right hand side uh through a storefront that will also be a common Lobby to the upstairs elevator areas um so the building is and has always been served by an elevator that elevator will now serve office spaces on the second floor uh on the west side of the building which was once upon a time we Masters um it will have a little bit of that feel again but again we have to make some modifications to provide for accessibility both of the doorways on the building currently sit between um six and 10 inches above the street level so we have to make modifications in order to provide for that accessibility under the building code once inside the left hand door you will actually have a retail store as both Mr Anderson and and Mr Yen have described there is a very interesting component of the operation here which is not only just train uh the special needs uh Community for just the food uh but there's also an area that's going to be given over to ques maker space and that's to also be able to train people in how to do other kinds of U manual work and manual uh creativity as it were uh and there are certain kinds of uh Toys Games Etc that will be used in that space for that purpose but they'll also be available for sale so we have a small retail store component that would enable just a general public to come come in and obtain those same uh Toys gain educational elements from that space on the left hand side as noted that would then be a retail space the only remaining component of this building that would be a retail space uh at the rear of the building there will be a quotes kitchen but that kitchen is not what you might think of as a commercial kitchen which would typically be associated with the restaurant is in this particular case it's largely going to be countertops with an island in which the various different uh constituents will be able to be trained and how to do very basic food preparation work as well as packaging as well as the uh presentation of that work so the kitchen is not what you think of as like you know he across the parking lot from that it is a much simpler countertop thing would be more like uh the way I describe it even inhouse for our offices it's more like the Service Catering kitchen we just recently did for the Two River cater company just pre it's a simple place where very basic uh kitchen elements can be present the last but not least thing which is mentioned by Mr Yellen but is very important to their program which is an interactivity space for both public as well as constituents and that is to create a space that is kind of a a lounge uh the intention is to literally have a ping pong table there as as well as some other tables in which these very same games that are selling in the retail space can be participated with not only with constituents who would be trained to work here but also the public to interact and come in and enjoy the space as well for that and um getting to the parking element Mr Simpson would you discuss the current parking the proposed parking any um any parking that's open to the public in the general vicinity at the risk of shocking of the board who know me but it tra to be direct um there's uh I've provided an additional exhibit which is not in your package do that not creating but this is a sheet I'm referring to as A2 and really it's only two things the sheet A2 represents an aerial photograph of the area uh the building as you can see is right here with all the wonderful solar panels on the roof um it shows a it's hard to a little bit see this and I'm more than happy to provide this for the board uh informationally um but it's basically shows an area which is the 200 foot circle which is Illustrated on our cover sheet but just may sort of blown up so you have a better hand on it the key thing that's important to understand is while there are 15 parking spaces going to be provided for this building directly across the street there are 145 parking spaces within 200 feet of this building so yes technically by ordinance we are deficient 15 spaces more than it used to be but it happens to be in a location where not only can the property owner provide 10 more than the building previously had because they own the adjacent spaces are willing to provide those Asal spaces for this um but it also will DW arrive those users that will arrive here they're going to be in the'll be generating revenue for the burrow Red Bank by parking in the parking lot as much as possible Mr Simpson is there a diagram on your A2 showing a proposed location for an ADA space yes um as noted in the tnm letter um there is a place on studies where a space could be created um there is a survey that is and also this is shown on our sheet A1 um where if you just modify what is essentially the straight painted area you can actually create an onsite uh accessible parking spot which is immediately adjacent to the parking lot uh excuse me the walkway on the east side of excuse me the west side of the building so you can basically go from that space along here get around to the sidewalk of the front of the building yeld accessibility on site however it's my personal believe that nobody's going to use that because you have directly across the street two very accessible parking spaces with a very well marked uh uh walkway done at the time the whole White Street parking lot was done so it's our belief that people will park in those two bar free spaces and come directly across the street to the front door Mike are you talking about behind 64 white is that where you're talking you would create this this SE I'm saying right behind the building itself there is behind 62 so behind 62 not tucked in behind 64 right here at the Northeast excuse me northwest corner of the building there is a space that's already there it's just that it has a fairly large L and shaped straight area yes I see that area a little bit smaller and dedicated that to the stri area for the accessible parting space you could sign that and you could provide that as a space ques on site legally it's within the site boundaries of that property do you think people would be more inclined to use it if you put it directly behind number 64 rather than at the end no I don't think it would be more accessible go right behind 64 um first of all there's question that comes into play of who has what spot dedicated to yeah sure I I get all these spaces not all these spaces but all but 10 of these spaces this point are are distributed around various different Le property Jason so 64 doesn't really help this property this is on the property literally on the property it has a sidewalk Associated to it on the west side of I see that so if one takes and makes that the accessible spot now you have one on site my personal belief is people are still going to use the one across the street in White Street well as you said it might not be uh designated for anyone specific use so while I agree with you the the Robocat CFE users may go across the street I'd love to see the space in the back of the building because who else who who knows who else might use it elsewhere on the in the shared site additional benefit and it's simply a restri question Mr Simpson um would you just I guess for the board's edification tell them exactly how many spaces were seeking of Varian for um as you already noted um there was already a deficiency on the site um where five spaces have been allotted but 37 were required so we had a 32 space deficiency um when it was hobby Masters under this because of the fact that we're sort of being categorized the same as a restaurant for about a quarter of the space which is unfortunate and true um we have a 10 space per thousand square foot this is hardly a pure restaurant but the RO those are the rules um so when you do the math and you do the parking calculation you have a 47 space requirement for this building under this use and if you take that 47 space requirement and you deduct the already deficiency we have of 32 you only have a 15 space increase in a deficiency I don't believe that there is anything remotely like that ever going to be need I agree I agree with you I agree with you um and if anyone else has a question or a comment feel free to jump in any time but um I I have one more thing you obviously have a significant change of use from Hobby Masters to any version of food Use so tell me about your trash and recycling so trash and recycling is very interesting on this site um again under the Bowers control at the time the approval was done for the Commerce Bank a centralized trash enclosure building was created at the southwest corner of the Commerce Bank system that current location is being is servicing all of the properties that operate off of this parking lot and is a low capacity you could put more in there so it's Our intention to do that to use the same collection facilities to use the same uh hall or as it were to have all of that be handled exactly in that location again it's less than 200 feet from the back door of the building so there there'll be no trash in cans or otherwise directly related or directly behind or near 62 White Street you're going to use yes they're GNA use dumpster we're not going to see trash cans with food or anything behind the building okay and in speaking to Mr Yellen his intention first of all he says they're not going to have very much food waste if they have leftover food they would look to try to partner with another Community organization to make sure that the food Foods consumed long as they're not violating any health laws of course Mr Simpson would you just review the standard of relief for the variants and why it is you think the applicants entitled the parking variants I apologize I to my notes so the standard for granting a variance is you have to have something on both you know essentially on the positive side here you have a hardship they don't have enough land to buide most of it's pre-existing am I correct it's pre-existing we can't provide for variance it's pre-existing um provide 15 more parking spaces so we can't do that um we also have that the variance can be granted without substantial detriment to the public good without substantially imping The Zone plan or the zoning ordinance in this case you have I would argue and I think the municipal land use law would say it an inherently beneficial use to we building that pairs rather nicely with other uses that boards in town have recently approved um they've already had some communication back and forth of how they can work through programs together and so I think the benefits outweigh the negatives U pretty conspicuously one other thing I would note a lot of times when a um an applicant comes before you they may be coming before you as a future land owner existing land owner they're going to offer General Welfare benefits they're going to do charitable works and it sometimes comes with a cost and the loss is rable here you kind of get um I don't know you get your cake and eat it too because it's going to remain owned by a for-profit entity renting to a for-profit entity stays on the tax rules but they're doing great works anyone from the board have any questions Dan just so that I know that they're going to be doing something with the parking lot uh I don't know when but they're supposed to reconfigure some of that based on the uh opening that up again I just don't know where opening up what again talk about the White Street parking lot White Street lot so we may all or may not be aware of there will be some reconfiguration of the White Street parking lot even though it has been as a result of Port so municipality so that will happen in my personal opinion as a public parking lot that will be a meaningful Improvement to what has been done and it really doesn't have any impact on the 145 spaces I've already mentioned and all you're doing is restriping the back to provide the 18a space right literally the restriping would be limited to the direct free parking spaces all these other spaces we talked about all exist and they're just being resigned as you know um access excuse me exit spaces that already exist and they're not supposed to lose many parking spots during the reconfiguration yeah now I remember that okay yes yeah right used to be to we opened up all right an easement I get it the um the other thing I just want to we do have a on Newman Springs Ro a similar use to this I didn't know that this was a you know as far as being a restaurant use but there is a similar use in 210 for special needs to to you know use around a kitchen there's a maca it's not even a maca kitchen it's a kitchen it doesn't have you know commercial stuff in it is to train people and to function better at home and in public so we do already have something set that's true it's a great organization I actually did that application a great very good but as I mentioned before that one is owned by the organization and I did the tax exemption for them so that came off the rolls and it's a pretty expensive property to come off the rolls so this is kind of neat in that it doesn't come off the roles but still provides good y anyone in the board have any questions or comments on this application one thing um as far as loading what's your proposal for Lo um there's no change to loading as the way the building functions now other than the fact that you know when I was TW Masters and hobby Masters you may get some solid sizable trucks to come there the vehicles that come and from this site will never be anything bigger than a sprinter event um you're dealing with getting light packaging for light lunch it you're not going to have anything other than Amazon fate deliveries for this thing there's just no need for that kind of deliver to the site I mean speaking to the applicant you mentioned that a lot of times they'll be going out and procuring their own food offsite like at a Costco style thing bringing it in it's it's not like a restaurant where you're gonna have the big 18 wheeler or a Cisco truck or something like that and just any other comments that are in our letter you guys agreed to address I think there's a comment in here about or wheel stops so yeah there was a question having to do with Ballers so in my detail plan here um you can't say it but again I'm happy to provide it to the board and especially in Toto um is that the spaces at the rear of the building are not gigantic they're they're pretty much the minimum they can be if we have to install a line of B at building you're going to start moving them back and that means the aisle is going to get smaller I think if we talk about maybe doing wheel stops that's not a ridiculous idea so obviously we're trying to protect the building and protect the vehicles but um making the two-way traffic back here narrower I think is not a great idea so bother to me doesn't feel like the right solution are you okay with wheel stops I'm good with I think I'm good with wheel stops maybe we can add some like caution signage or something in front along the building just have like have a lot of people driven their cars into the back of hobby Masters all these years I didn't know about I actually looked at that and because I as soon as I saw his letter was like gez I never actually thought about that or people driving into the building but I don't I can't literally see any damage on there I mean Mr Bowers does a great job maintaining his property so if the wheel stops and some signage would be great yeah some wheel stops and again I'm not sure what the signage would say and don't hit the building it's like have a picture of a car running into a building with a line through it yeah I certainly would would defer to tnm for their advice on signing for come up with Mike could you speak to any uh exterior improvements that you're doing on the building um none are proposed at this time other than changing the sign at first floor of the building um they're you know we are trying to facilitate getting them in as quickly as we can and it's somewhat of an experimental program for them um they've not done a building of their own before they've always done their program out on site at people's houses that's so at this time there are no improvements other than those the first floor which will new storefront in both of those two places at this fun um as far as other improvements to the building uh I would defer to the the property owner as to whether there anything they have planned but for inclusion Pathways there other than storefronts at the street level there's no no improvements suggested do anyone from the public have any comments or questions regarding this application have a motion to close the public portion of the meeting some Mo second all in favor anyone else have any other questions or comments from the board just one more thing uh so there is technically a street tree requirement um and you know this probably doesn't make the most sense to install them here um however um the applicant would either have to install trees or post a contribution applicants nodding is head that there'll be a contribution so the the contribution now for one street tree is $1,000 it's it's 500 per I think we just I stand correction to's not going to be opposed to $1,000 for a tree hitting me what is the requirement Mr G it's $1,000 one trade one trade amendable to that yep that being said I'd be happy to make a motion to approve the application as submitted with the comments and uh Engineers letter taken into account as well as the testimony from Mr Simpson and Mr y um I didn't get I I've been trying to get your attention I really have a question to ask could we can I jump in now or is it we're informal I just kind of disappear behind me um I have a question about the the numbers of people that are going to be there um I I see that you have so many of the trainees and so many trainers um are the trainers all going to be professionals or they or you also might have volunteers in there um helping and um what's the maximum number of people that you think you will be dealing with in in the building at a time that's good question we'll bring Mr Yellen back up um um we we don't anticipate um many individuals I would say as far as trainers again that would be you know between the hours of well 9 to three that they're training them um I'm really anticipating maybe as I said before three or four um as far as the trainers and um sorry apologize what was the other would they all be paid like a paid professionals oh yes yes they would be paid professionals um you know um that were that are that are doing the training um you know we may have some of the folks with special needs um in addition to or who are being trained there you know not every necessarily everybody is going to be um you know the special needs is paid during the operations we might have some folks with special needs that are volunteering um at the cafe so a little bit of a hbd between those um and I also did want to add which I think you like to hear as far as um the people that patrons that will be coming to the cafe we are anticipating uh a a lot of patrons um to also be folks with special needs because we do plan on um opening up um um housing people with special needs Red Bank which is really beneficial um you know placing them in apartments there's a big housing shortage particularly for folks with special needs definitely is so we work with people to get housing vouchers um um and we place them in housing and we're looking at Red Bank we identified a lot of potential apartment buildings for them so what's great about that is far as patrons know people with special needs they don't drive so there's not going to be any foot traffic there they're going to be walking to um the cafe uh so I just get to ask you what is the maximum capacity of each side of the of of the probably a better question for the architect yeah we haven't done a set of occup calculations for um building code purposes discussion we've been having all along is that you're looking at six to eight staff members total in the building at PE that includ as well the people downstairs so at the moment that's the current plan um you know we can't what's going to happen you know if the program goes rocket science great but their operational model is 6 to8 staff members on site of the constituency is going to be any place as he already gave testimony to 15 to 30 depending upon what programs are being trained downstairs any given time so you could have 40 people on site just conceivable um at a peak training time we have allowed based upon the building code as many as 28 seats for um people in the restaurant but as we've discussed if they get 28 people it'll be Beyond a miracle the real expectation is something on the magnitude 15 we showed the 28 seats because that's what we believe would be a maximum for that portion the other areas identified as either the maker space or the uh the lounge space really it's going to be the same people that would be functioning either in the quotes train kitchen the cafe itself or people upstairs or those who are coming into actually use the services so I think maximum 40 people probably allow more than that yeah I mean the building is quite large I know but I was just wondering how many what what your the history is of of the program and how many people they the problem history of the program question is it's pretty much he's inventing it nobody else program I'm glad you're inventing he's been trying to do it in these various different locations offsite and there's a lot of downsides to that they'll continue to do that right as well because the constituents benefit from that but this one there's really not another model like it and the hope is that this becomes one that is very successful that's can be taken elsewhere yeah I just I just was concerned about the the numbers I didn't want an overcrowded building at any point in time under the occupancy of that building by the time I were to actually finish an occupancy that building you probably like ancure occy really good you could probably say over 100 people be there they can't no no that's that's what I was looking for that kind of information I have like sort of the discreet uses during the day they're doing the training and they have the administrative staff at night they're they're recreating they're serving the food so like presumably the administrative staff's not there still at night you know so there would be supervision anyway yeah supervision of course but like the administrative office workers that are upstairs during the day they're not there at no so their parking space is free up we we like I want to say do is we we like the idea of having a larger space not because we anticipate to fill up the whole Space because we like to have a variety of different things that are going on so you could have the same people move from one area to from the gaming area you can go to the maker space area you know um it's kind of Shifting around that's why you know I think this is a perfect setup for us it's a very large space um and we're not GNA I can tell you it will be a miracle as um sorry um Mr Simpson Simpson said you know for you know us to fill up those points well I hope at some point in time you do thank you thank you that being said let the record uh show that I'll amend my uh motion to approve the extra testimony given we have a second a second uh Thomas Walsh yes Christina bonus yes Sam cuso yes yes Barbara Bo yes Messi wi B yes Hernandez thank you very much it a very exciting you all the best of luck thanksgiv Happy Thanksgiving to everyone as well but we're not done yet we have an ordinance review that you can please explain to me um because I did read right so they council is adding another section on I guess another position to the off street parking requirement for the E vehicle Supply um and that section is 490 982 eight number eight and this is for the um e cases and this is talking about the um disconn disconnecting process what does that mean the disconnecting just saying that the the disconnecting um tools or mechanism should already be in place when installing the um make ready or EV spes it like an emergency off switch from okay so on I give any insight on this because I still don't understand it from the car yeah I really don't have too much to say I think it was driven by fire code Tommy has a B on his face this this this came through the fire department through the building department and the electrical subcode because it's something that eventually is going to be an any C70 which is Electric Code which is the electric code and the concern for some fire departments is the amount the r fires that you know people are getting inside with these EV fires and at the same time us to be able to secure power to them like we have the ones up here where to secure power to these you have to go up to the corner so the idea is to give more availability to the fire service incident commanders to know where to secure that should we have to attempt to fight a fire in there excellent does anyone have any questions you don't really need a motion do you Mike oh no I mean everybody's okay with this if everybody doesn't have anything to do with the where the disconnecting as much as where the power source is but like what you were saying we're not yeah we we certainly don't consider this in conflict with anything to do with the master plan it's all we have to vote and if if everyone's in favor this that this does not conflict with the master plan then then there is no issues with it uh all in favor there you go any opposed or abstained one last order of business business I hope everyone has a wonderful Thanksgiving and we'll see you all in December and the calendar has been revised I um for next year yeah for next year the one that I dropped in from last meeting has been changed um due to League of municipalities and other things so yeah Mo Journey all in favor you doing for Thanksgiving now it's