let's call the meeting to order please good evening everyone this is the meeting of the municipal L use Board of the bur Riveredge it is Wednesday March 13 2024 the time now is 7:32 PM I'm going to ask Miss styley to kindly read the open public uh the open meetings act please yes thank you this is a meeting of the municipal Landes Board of the burough river is being held remotely and recorded via Zoom due to the burrow council chambers availability and is in compliance with the provisions of the open public meetings act and Associated regulations notice of this remote meeting was published in the Bergen Record posted on the front doors of B Hall and posted on the bur's website the notice included the dial-in login information necessary for public participation and access to this meeting remotely a copy of the agenda for this meeting was made available on the br's website near the posting of the meeting notice and included the dial in login information during the public period of this meeting if you would like to make a public comment please press the raise hand button on Zoom or dial star9 on your telephone keypad to raise your hand the board will address You by name or the last four digits of your phone number you may mute and unmute Yourself by pressing the microphone icon on Zoom or dialing star9 on your telephone keypad or star six on your telephone keypad you must state your name and address prior to making a public comment okay and when you're ready would you call the rooll please yes um Mr Mayor is excused tonight Mr castlin here miss Bolan here Mr merman here Mr caffer here Mr cig here Mr chigo here councilman glass is excused tonight Mr Gibbons here and Mr don't see him don't see him yet he may be maybe a little late night okay and then also present Mr bar um and I don't see Mr Costa but he might be arriving too Mr Costa may be late okay okay all right thank you uh just a housekeeping note before we get started uh we do have um a couple of items that we'd like to get to tonight um board business at the end of the agenda so I'd like to do is um ask that for the balance of the agenda items that we have a a preliminary curfew of 9:30 just we leave ourselves a uh a time between 9:30 and 10 o'cl if we have to go that late just to cover the uh board member items uh category on the agenda so with that we'll let let's move into the agenda the first item on this evening's agenda uh we do not have minutes from our February 28th meeting uh let's move into memorializations uh we do have one available it is the Cannabis overlay Zone um we have a draft of a resolution recommending adoption of ordinance number 244 amending chapter 416 zoning of the riv burough code draft of the resolution was circulated prior to this evening's meeting for the board's review and I open to the board for comments and or questions on that draft resolution Mr chairman Mr merman um I reviewed the uh draft and I found that it Incorporated the comments the prior comments from the board and I'm satisfied with it I have no further comments okay thank you sir uh anyone else on the board comments and or questions on the draft resolution okay they're being done I will look for a motion uh on the resolution please so a second I think I got a first from Miss Boland and a second from Mr given all right and I'll I'll call the role just for those eligible um Miss Bolan yes Mr merman yes Mr fer yes and Mr GI yes Mo okay thank everyone uh we're going to now move into completeness review on our agenda applicant is Darkstar LLC slipnot LLC uh Mason Lazar and Paul in barado property is 335 Johnson Avenue this is block 1405 lot 3 uh proposing a medical use and seeking uh variances for parking evening gentlemen um let's see Mr baren I start with you pleas or actually miss steinley if I start with you please okay thank you um prior to the meeting I reviewed the proofs submitted by the applicant and found them to be sufficient for the board to have jurisdiction over the application tonight okay thank you Mr Barons good evening um from a completeness perspective the applicant is requesting amended site plan approval so this is for a uh a site plan application that was approved last year by this board and um as was mentioned they're looking to U accommodate a medical office tenant which requires a parking variance and so uh in terms of the application materials that have been submitted um the application is administratively complete and can move forward this evening okay thank you sir questions or comments from the board as to completeness okay at this time I'll look for a motion on the completeness of the application don't moved thank you Mr kigo there a second second thank you m ban all right Mr castlin yes Miss Bolan yes Mr merman yes Mr feffer yes Mr PR yes yes Mr tamigo yes and Mr G yes all right the motion passes okay thanks everyone we're going to move on now in our agenda into new business the applicant is Darkstar LLC and slipnot LLC Mason Lazar Paul and barado property is 335 Johnson Avenue this is block 1405 lot 3 the proposed medical use and amended site plan approval uh is being s good evening uh ladies and gentlemen Mr Charlo I see you're here good evening sir uh good evening Mr chairman members of the board counselor Mr this is Charles sarlo on behalf of the applicant in connection with 335 Johnson Avenue block 1405 lot 3 good evening and good to see everybody um as was introduced uh during the completeness hearing the board members that were here in 2023 I think most most of the board members I'm kind of recognizing the names were were on the board in 2023 would be familiar with this application because it was only in 2023 during the summer I guess the resolution was adopted uh September 13 2023 and if the board members will recall uh this was a series of um public hearings that we had um and the board approved a two-story um office building it's really you know it was you know three stories with the rooftop uh but two stories of floor space with parking underneath that's why I kind of referred to it as two stories but I know from a the the zoning perspective it's it's more than two stories but for the purposes of tonight's uh discussion in terms of the the floor space that we're talking about um it's two two floors of office space and that's exactly what we had proposed and what the um uh application in August September was premised on was two floors of of office space if you recall the top floor was going to be used by Le brow who has been a long-standing business uh in in Riveredge and that continues to be the case as we sit here this evening so why are we back um we are back because um the applicant has um has been talking to a reputable prominent uh tenant which is uh hack hackensac Meridian uh healthare sure you're all familiar with Hackensack Meridian and um they are obviously um not only a well-known uh commodity and business entity um but they would certainly be a great addition as a tenant to this particular facility we're not here because the medical use that they're looking to bring into this facility um on the I call it the first floor it's really the second floor but you know the first floor of off office space um uh we're not here because the medical use is not a permitted use um it is but we're here because the parking standards are different in the township uh in the buroughs code for Office Space versus medical the last time we were here and the board granted the variances we received a parking variance of I think it was um 12 spaces and that was all premised on the gross square foot of the two floors of of of office space classified as office space now what's being proposed is one floor of office space and one floor of medical use so we had to rework the numbers and we are here for a um an additional parking variance um initially the when the numbers will be presented um they may be a little um overbearing in terms of the type of parking variants that we're asking for but I believe after you hear the testimony that um we um my client and his professionals have done a good job in terms of mitigating that that parking variance uh down to the tune of uh if the board accepts the testimony and the mitigating factors really down to um a a zero parking variance based on how the space would actually be used we'll still need a parking variance in accordance with the the Burrows code um and we're going to present it certainly in accordance with the Burrows code um and then we're also going to present the numbers from a practical uh standpoint as as uh the user um the user demands for this particular facility kind of bear out so with that said as a as a introduction um we are here for a amended site plan um that's very minor um we have our architect here just to come back and testify uh in that regard it's with regard to actually a loss of a parking space to accommodate uh um uh potential parking for a ambulance or as needed parking for an ambulance and that's really the extent of the parking viance the or the amended site plan the the building doesn't change the size of the building doesn't change the parking L doesn't change the Ingress agress does not change so before we have a number of witnesses that I think we will will be able to go through pretty pretty quickly but just want to kind of as a Prelude to the testimony is um as this board is aware um variance approvals especially parking variance approvals are are sometimes hard to get not only in in riverid in every town there's always a parking variance um and whatever approval is granted by this board or any other board to a developer or a property owner that's the first step in the process um it you know a lot of people deem it to be the hard hardest step and a lot of times it it is the hardest step but but the secondary hardest step in actually seeing get seeing and getting a property developed comes financing right and I know the board cannot take into consideration financing but this is you know merely background as an introductory U you know statement um so the office space while the second floor there is not significant it's you know 8,000 square foot plus uh in terms of size and there could be a potential user uh down the road that my client could secure um the office Market continues to be soft in Bergen County um still coming out of uh you know covid even though that's been a number of years ago if you read the paper or if you're familiar on a personal basis uh in your uh own careers you know there's been that hybrid shift to potentially working from home and a lot of uh uh companies have downsized their their Footprints in terms of you know square footage so not to say that there could be a um a tenant that comes down the road but we do have um a a interested tenant here um that would like to to uh they like the location and they would like to to see the space um and just kind of circling back to my comment about the financing is you know to get financing on a development project um certainly office space um it's much easier and much quicker if you have tenants that could um that you could rely the bank could rely on in terms of that that there will be a rent roll and even nowadays in terms of multif family uh some I I represent a lot of multif family developers and some lenders now want to see pre-leasing of a number of Apartments before they'll actually issue construction loans so um it's uh you know the the filling up the space and getting letters of intent are very important nowadays um with the um the relatively higher interest that we've seen in the past so thank you for um allowing me to give that introduction so with that said uh I'd like to first uh introduce and call Victor Fetti who was the project architect and who just is briefly going to describe the amended site plan Victor this is a new hearing so I know you testified last time but we do need you to um get sworn in go that if you please raise your right hand do you swear from the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do all right and please state your name spell your last name for the record Victor Fetti f l l TTI and could you just provide the board with a refresher on your qualifications sure I'm a registered architect uh in New York and New Jersey uh I have been in front of this board several times and um I do work in the uh New York tri-state area um significantly in uh residential commercial Office Buildings and um buildings such as this okay so we get Mr fety recognized as an expert in field of architecture yes is are there any OB question so thank you counselor okay Mr Fetti um you were you're you were the project architect um during the first approval of this particular project is that correct yes okay and then you've prepared um an amended site plan that was submitt as part of the application is that correct that is correct okay so if maybe if you could share your screen identify the drawing um by the title Block in the date and describe the the proposed change that um that we need in terms of an amended site plan approval okay okay everybody could see the drawing yes okay yes so we have drawing A1 um these drawings were prepared on on March 11th uh the latest copy um this front sheet is uh pretty much stayed the same with the exception of the drawing list that has changed to just show the one through five drawings list of property owners remain the same zoning notes remain the same and if I could just um if I could just stop right there so Mr flaty if you did not change the if you did not change the 200 foot list property owner list they may have stayed the same but just for the record we did obtain an updated 200 foot list okay yes we did okay and and what was the date of your of the document um so the last printed date is Actually March 11th I don't if I have that version but um the date the date on the drawings is still actually January 19th 2023 those were the original drawing dates okay from the uh previous application I'll just mark this as exhibit A1 okay with the date of March 11 you got it okay drawing 82 um has zoning calculations on the left side of the drawing and the ground floor plan SL site plan plan of the project um this is the one drawing that has changed in the uh zoning calculations the parking calculation has changed to show um the requirements for medical office space at one per 100 and uh that calculation showing 90 spaces are required for the second floor 9,000 square ft of medical office space Plus plus four doctors times two at 8 uh we get a credit for the 2 EV charging station of two spaces with the office space of 36 bringing a total of 130 spaces required currently we are proposing 57 parking spaces plus one ambulance parking space making this a deficiency of 73 spaces which is what the variance is requested in the plan you can see this uh ambulance space is the one space that was added as a requirement for the medical office which is what reduced our uh parking from 58 to 57 the remainder of the drawings uh did not change building code analysis remained the same all other zoning requirements did not change building footprint stayed the same next sheet is drawing 83 which is the second floor plan indicating medical office space throughout with an open plan right now and uh listing 8321 square feet of usable uh space whereas the parking calculation is based on 9,000 for the entire footprint of the building the usable space is 8,321 and uh that's the only change to this drawing next page is drawing A4 showing the office space on the third floor there has been no change to this drawing from the previous approved application roof plan rooftop Terrace is just showing an open rooftop Terrace that the owner intends to use U there's been no change to this drawing as well okay that's it very good thank you Victor you're welcome there any questions by the board members um might we start Mr Barn you have any questions sure good evening um thank you Mr fety I think that was a pretty good overview uh just a question and and maybe it's for a a different um team member on your end but uh with regard to the ambulance space could you help us understand um what's driving that need and how often you think it might be used so we do V Victor if you could uh I'm sure if you could answer that but um Tom we do have a representative of hackensac Meridian that's going to testify next and that question I mean it's a an appropriate question but I think it may be more appropriate for the user to answer understood so we'll hold off on operational questions then for for that uh witness then okay so I'll stick to um archit just from a a technical standpoint um and the numbers work out the same but I the parking requirement adds up to 132 spaces I'm reluctant to Discount the EV from there versus adding it to the number of spaces that you have if that makes sense so from my perspective and and I know we did it differently with the first go around but I think the parking requirement is technically 132 spaces you have 57 physical spaces plus two gets you 59 credits the deviation is the same but just just from a technical St you end up in the same place but I got out there and just to identify at this point that I believe there is one more variance required um which I did not identify in my memo but I I realized today and um that is from section 46-40 A which um pertains to uh off-site parking are does this application are you proposing any offside parking at present uh yes we're going to introduce a letter of intent um to use the New Jersey Transit parking and I think the um the variant that I guess you you picked up was um the distance between the two sites correct yes so we didn't have um at the time of the application that was submitt it uh we did not have that letter of intent in our hands we had told it we were told it was coming but we didn't have it we didn't want to make any representations that we were going to have that letter of intent to mitigate the parking um when we filed but it did come after we present it as a courtesy copy uh but we are going to introduce it into evidence this evening appreciate I just wanted to point that as again another technical matter so I have no further questions at this point thank you okay uh let me uh go around to the board then if I may uh let me start uh with Miss Boland if I um yeah my question is how does the ambulance space affect uh the maneuvering in and out of the adjacent spaces okay um so while the ambulance is is um within the space there is enough room for vehicles to maneuver and get by throughout the uh the drive area uh there may be some uh you know small restriction on like car with the circle number 13 on it backing up but uh there is maneuverability to get through the parking lot so you said a restriction is it restricted from being able to be used or can they get in and out they can get in and out it'll just be if the ambulance is there it would be a couple more moves okay that's my only question sure okay thank you M BAND Mr Gibbons yeah that that's that would be my concern as well it it doesn't look like there's a lot of room between if that's to scale ambulance um at first looks like it would be very difficult to back that ambulance into that spot um and use it and it also looks like it's an accident waiting to happen for 13 and the two adjacent spots um so I definitely think you're going to have um some issues with with be people being able to get through and hitting that ambulance and people pulling it out in and out as well as the ambulance pulling in and out that that looks tight um but that's my concern for this part of it okay uh Mr [Music] Craig [Music] Mr you're you're you're doing your Echo thing again your Echo okay we'll come back to your Mike [Music] thanks uh Mr Feer no I have no questions at this time thank you okay Mr Keno uh I I Echo whatever everybody just said about the what I see on the screen here looks tight to me I it doesn't make a lot of sense I guess we're going to hear more about the the intended use of the space um in the next uh couple of hours is that right that's correct okay so then I'll save my questions for when I hear the the entire presentation thank you okay Mr Mur yeah I have a couple of questions I assume that you uh Mr fledy I assume you're going to address m C's comments separately yes okay um because some of them also involve um this ambulance um I also assume that you're going to prepare the final construction drawings based on what's determined tonight yes is that correct that is correct could could you off the top since you're going to prepare the construction drawings could you give me an estimate of what you think the life of this building might be in years um if I had a guess I would say this is probably a 75 to 100 Year life expect 75 to 100 Year okay very good thank you uh my my my comments still remain uh the same as the pre previous uh board members and I'm not going to waste waste any time at that point okay I'm I'm I'm thank you okay thank you Mr may I think we have Mr C back yes is this any better much better right um the only question I have is is that angance location in any way GNA impact the handicaps space next to it as far as um people coming in and out of cars that may have be oriented towards the ambulance well uh the the am the handicapped access ible aisle the required code 5 foot aisle will not be affected um that's a that is a standard for handicapped accessible spaces and the ambulance will not impede upon that at all got it okay okay you good Mr CR I'm good I had one question um does the ambulance parking spot impact trash removal I can't remember what we decided for trash removal um it does not the tra the trash room is in the back corner of the building there is a way for them to access trash although I I I don't think it would be during operating hours but if even if it did and the ambulance was there they can enter and exit out of the other uh side of the driveway okay Mr SAR thank you chairman um Mr Mr fle just one quick follow-up question just wanted to make sure everything got covered did you address um and it is in Mr Costa's letter with regard to the height of the ambulance as it relates to the underside of the first floor structure sure um the underside of the of the second floor floor structure has been designed to accommodate uh an ambulance there is enough clearance for an ambulance to go under the building okay thank you you're welcome okay if there's no further questions for Mr py I'd like to Now call my next witness okay please proceed okay so I'd like to call uh Victor if you want stop sharing the screen thank you you're welcome so I'd like to call um Miss Diane chains I pronouncing her name correctly vice president real estate of hackin saac Meridian who is here with us this evening welcome Diane y thank you okay all right if you please raise your right hand do you s affirm the testimony that you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do all right and please state your name spell your last name and provide your address for the record uh Diane Chase c h a yees and my address the business address is fine um three 43 thornal Street Edison New Jersey what was your title with Hackensack again it's vice president real estate all thank you Mr just a fact witness correct that's correct thank you counselor okay uh and Dian with uh now that you have the your introduction on on the record and your position with hackin saac Meridian um how long have you been employed by Hackensack Meridian in this position I've been employed by Hackensack for eight and a half years okay so you're uh you're it's safe to say that you're familiar with uh the operations of hackensac Meridian and the real estate uh needs given you given your position uh yes for for the eight and a half years that that has been my role um for the entire time that I've been here I'm a real estate broker by trade um okay um so I think anybody that's familiar with hack mgan knows that it's um it's been actively growing over the last several years especially in in Bergen County as well as down Shore I think across New Jersey but you know how many how many facilities does hackensac Meridian actually have um hackin saac Meridian has uh about 500 am I'll call them ambulatory locations we got 18 hospitals which are not included in our ambulatory uh uh locations so about 500 through throughout the network okay and when and when you use the term ambulatory is that medical office use for for different practices yes it is a it's all for different practices not located on the hospital campuses okay thanks for that clarification um are these leas are these facilities uh owned or leased or combination uh the majority of of our facilities off the hospital campuses are least space okay and do you have a um you have P Marian have a strong presence in southern Bergen County I sure do uh we have about 155 locations in Bergen County um and I'm I'm going to say that probably 150 of them are in leased space okay um and with with regard to the U property that's the subject of this application um I know there was we're going to share a letter of intent a little later on in the the presentation but um are you familiar with this uh letter of intent that we we've submitted as a courtesy copy to the board at this point in time yes I'm familiar with it okay um and that that letter of intent is obviously non-binding n non-binding letter of intent yes okay but uh does it signify uh that um Hax hack Meridian has a a strong interest in in this location um and would like to uh continue to move towards a a lease if this application was approved um yes um as you saw the the non-binding letter intent um you know outlines terms that have been agreed to by us and the the landlord okay okay um and again we're going to show that letter of intent a little bit but uh Jose uh Lorenzo Lorenzo um executed that Loi could you just identify who who Jose is in his position yes that's Jose Lozano Jose is an Executive Vice President of hackin sck ran Health he's a chief growth officer of the network all real estate and Facilities um report up through Jose great um and how many uh based on the footprint of uh the floor space how many uh employees do you anticipate at this location uh we expect there to be about 22 employees at this location between uh team members and Physicians okay um and um what type um I mean how many how many doctors would would there be uh we would we would expect there to be um about seven doctors and 15 team members supporting those doctors okay um and I know um I know four plans have not been um designed and worked out yet but this would be a typical floor plan of exam rooms offices I guess for the doctors nursing stations break rooms anything anything out of the ordinary I guess from what the general person is used to go into one of these facilities anything out of the or any type no nothing nothing out of the ordinary it's it's it's fairly standard Physician Office Space okay um and your anticipated uh hours our anticipated hours are um 7:30 A.M to 700 p.m. um Monday through Friday and then 7:30 a.m. to 1 p.m. on Saturdays um and you heard the um architect um testified with regard to the space for the ambulance proposed parking space for the ambulance you heard some of the board members um questions um there's probably going to be some additional questions as it relates to uh the use of the ambulance but can you um provide the board members with I guess um an understanding of why an ambulance parking space is required and how how it may be used frequency Etc so it's it's fairly standard for all of our ambulatory locations to have a dedicated space for an ambulance um or an ambulet even to mostly to drop off a patient um if they have to pick them up from from wherever they're being transported from and typ and and I and typically it's probably used maybe once a day it's it's not used you know various times throughout the day but but on average it's it could be about one time per day okay um and you have any can you provide any uh knowledge or input with regard to when you say one time a day is that are they there for an hour half hour 15 minutes any and I know what every um every instance would be have a different time frame but in a general sense or on average General it it's probably about I'm gonna say half an hour because what they're doing is they're they're they're bringing a patient in taking them into the facility into an exam room and then um you know then then leaving they don't typically wait there for that patient to be seen and then transported elsewhere so it's it on average it's about half an hour okay and then with regard to parking um what is so in the LOI again that we're going to into evidence we're going to show and moving into evidence but there is um a in Loi there's a parking requirement of one space per 200 square foot um can you comment on the the parking needs or demands of um your type of facilities sure so uh we have we have found that one space per per 200 square feet um satisfies our parking needs both for our our physicians and our team members as well as our patients um well um and we have learned that um many municipalities that we have locations in have parking you know ratios of one per 200 square feet which matches our needs well so um it's somewhat of a standard that we ask for as we are in the market looking for space um simply because we have found that um a a lower parking ratio we tends to cause us some some parking issues um particularly if we're sharing a building with with another user great okay thank thank you Diane so I have no further questions for Diane at this point in time I do just wan to um put on the record so you heard Diane's testimony about the five doctors um and when Victor the architect had gone through the parking analysis um he had indicated four doctors uh so um you know there is obviously that discrepancy there from the time the plans were prepared uh to Diane's testimony and I only bring that up because your parking standard the Burrows parking standard is based on you know one per 100 square feet plus two spaces per doctor so that discrepancy actually you know adds to the parking requirement uh so there's three additional doctors from what's in the application again the application and the um the parking calculation was four doctors we now saying there's seven doctors so the difference of three times two is an additional requirement of six I'm going to just leave it at that because we do have um professional planner that's going to run through all the parking numbers including um The increased uh demand based on the difference of uh the doctors so I just want to get that on the record before um I open up um to have uh the board members ask any questions of chairman thank you Mr charl uh Mr baren can I start with you sure good evening um just a few I guess we'll call them operational questions so the board has um in its application materials a floor plan for the space in question and you know we've heard some testimony about there being seven doctors and 15 team members can you help us understand um what the division of space of that four might look like in terms of number of exam rooms and other uh ancillary spaces we'll call them um sure fine um we would expect this a space of this size to have about 20 exam rooms um our exam rooms are typically about 100 20 square fet uh per per room um we have um obviously a reception area checkin check out um area we have a nurse station for the most part uh break rooms probably um um three to four Physician Offices or consult rooms and then um uh uh restrooms within the space okay and so with seven doctors and 20 exam rooms is there a chance that that number may may increase or do you think you're likely to stick with seven in your experience um are our standard is typically three exam rooms per doctor okay so um I I don't expect we don't expect although as we said we haven't we haven't done our own uh plan yet but I don't expect there to be more than 20 exam rooms in that eight or 9,000 square feet of space and um I think you mentioned that this would be used for sort of general you know medical office purposes do you have a a specific type of medicine that would be practiced here or type of services yeah we don't have that at this point in time you know we have um we work with our strategy and our business development team teams um to find out the what the needs are in the community um we we don't have much space in this area so um we really rely on our business development and strategy team to kind of tell us which which type of practice or practices should be located in this uh vicinity in this building so we are in the process of doing that there you know we may have um two or three different practices that we may put in here but they have not been fully identified yet okay thank you just maybe another question or two is it fair to assume that all of the patients will have an appointment prior to all and I know this may be tough to answer because we don't necessarily know the mix of services but do you have based on this size of a facility do you have an idea of how many patients can be accommodated within let's say a peak [Music] hour um I don't I don't know that um it you know it really would would depend on the type of practice that's that's there I mean if it was Primary Care there would probably be more than if it was a cardiologist um so I I don't have an answer to that quite yet okay understood thank you that's all I have for now thank you thank you Mr bar so let's uh go to the board uh start with uh Mr kigo please um no I think I think you answered all my question thank you Mr feffer yeah I'm just curious about one thing I'm not sure if you're the right person to answer this question but we we see on the drawings that there's a trash disposal area um in the corner of the parking lot are there any special considerations for hospital or medical waste disposal does that require a you know a separate section or separate uh type of shed or container any any special considerations that might change the the way things are configured right now I I I can say from a practice point of view there's there's no special consideration to put them in a in an enclosed area or any um area you know away from the building and that would be something that I guess we would work uh with the ownership of the building as to how they would like to see that okay so uh I'm just not clear so the the medical way would would that typically just go in the same area as the regular trash no well well there are are each practice or any practice has to have their own medical waste dispos um it's called a box a medical waste box um and so each they we would have that where it's located in at the outside when somebody comes to pick it up would be something that we would talk to the landlord about how they want to see that I mean if they want to um but we don't have any particular guidelines as to that I mean medical waste has to be picked up you know from the Bo in the Box sure typically typically you'll see it outside of an of a medical office building yeah so we're talking about those relatively small boxes so there wouldn't be a need for a large uh no container or or bin or dumpster or anything like that no definitely not no okay that was my only question thank you okay thank you Mr uh Miss Bolan um regarding the parking um you indicated uh one your typically one space per uh 200 square feet so that's around 45 parking spaces if you assume 9,000 square feet you said between eight or 9,000 um with 22 employees uh do you think you saying 23 spaces are enough for patients in a in a given day well it wouldn't be in a given day because our patients come and go so well so for so it's not like there yes we we believe that there is there would be enough parking to service our patients um because as we said you know typically when you go to a physician you're there for you know hopefully you're there for less than an hour um in and out and and as we said then those those appointments are typically scheduled so that um there wouldn't be any parking issues there okay um I don't know if you've addressed with the um the architect anything about signage of you what kind of sign it your you will require um so I guess I maybe that's more for the architect as far as whether there's any kind of a variance required for signage uh yes yes I would think so we have not we have not discussed any signage with the potential tenant at this time so you're assuming it's going to be conforming then uh or within the limits of what we've already been approved for we had some tenant signage square footage numbers already approved under the prior application um we anticipate it's going to fit within those numbers okay that's it for me yep thank you Miss bow uh Mr Gibbons uh I I have a a concern with the um with the parking um if we're looking at we need to have two spaces per doctor so 14 plus 15 staff which is really 29 um and having 20 exam rooms even if they're not all full you still have the exam room and then the people coming in next so I guess I'm concerned since we don't know what kind of practice will be there um that you will have enough with 45 I I that math doesn't add up for me um that there physic Physicians don't require two parking spaces under our ordinance they do I believe if I'm if I'm wrong please correct me not bar I don't know if you can correct that from from an ordinance standpoint you are correct um I I think she's saying from a a functional standpoint I guess maybe you can address uh Mr Gibb's comment M right from a functional standpoint our physicians don't require two space two parking spaces it's just one parking space up 22 employees and 20 exam rooms that's potentially 42 people people 42 cars and then the next round of people so you know my appointment is from 2 to three the people for the 3 o'clock will be there at 2:45 that that's my concern that there won't be enough parking because of that overlap with the next round of appointments right and I and I but I can also say that if there's seven doctors there they may not all be there every day and they may not be there all day I guess that that's a concern for me that we you know we don't know if it's a cardiologist or a pediatrician um you know we're kind of hoping that it's a cardiologist kind of thing um I just I just see that we're going to have a potential parking issue um you know with the assumption that you need one per or forget what your math was two per one per 200 feet I think it was one per 200 square feet Yes um I'm just concerned that that's not enough part personally that that was my concern okay thank you Mr GI Mr Craig yeah I mean I think the questions that have just been asked about the you know kind of the through C stacking in the waiting room uh you know the same concerns um and I guess I had kind of a question about that too I've done a little bit of interaction with the Health Care Systems and you know everyone right now is laser focused on leveraging technology to improve the patient experience to improve throughput to maximize use of operating rooms exam rooms etc etc so every effort within Healthcare that I've seen is trying to drive volume and improve quality with with that driven volume but I've got to anticipate that if you're using a number of you know one space for every 200 foot now based on past and current practices it's going to change you know it's going to accelerate so there's going to be even greater traffic flow because of the improvements in technology and process so you know on top of the fact that it already feels kind tight uh I get very concerned that two or three years down the road uh as you know Technologies continue to improve and develop it gets even tighter so just my two sent I I and I and I can understand that and appreciate that and you know as we said in in many other municipalities that we have locations in our one per 200 square feet um satisfies our our needs well um and I I don't know why it wouldn't do so here but you know I I I hear what you you saying okay thank you Mr Cay just for the record uh would like to reflect burough engineer Mr Costa is now with us at 8:26 PM uh next on I'll go to Mr merman please thank you Mr chairman um starting from the parking count I'm going I'm going to leave that to um the profess my basic questions and concerns have been answered and they were in the categories of Staffing operation and potential layout um so I have no other questions for this for this person at this time for Miss chase at this time okay I'm just I just have one question Miss Chase just in terms of you mentioned you anticipate only one ambulet a day um needing access to the property um is there any occasion where you have more than one that you find and if that becomes a uh if that should happen uh do you have sufficient cap capacity to accommodate more than one ambulet how are you going to handle that situation it if if this was going to be an Urgent Care location I would say yes it may happen more than one time per day um but even in our urgent care locations it doesn't happen once a day so I I don't I wouldn't expect this space to um have a need for an ambulant or an ambulance more than once a once a day if if there is um I I believe that that we would have to work on scheduling when that ambulance could drop off if there's if there's only one um parking spot for that is that it's not a situation that that that we have come up with in in our facilities to date um but it you know it I'm sure it could always happen okay all right thank you Mr sorl turn it back to you okay thank thank you Mr chairman uh thank you Mr Chase for your testimony I just wanted to Circle back on the the comment with the or the question on the two parking spaces per doctor as um the zoning Ori State I think the intent there certainly is obviously a doctor's not going to bring two cars to to work but it's for the the doctor as well as support staff that's just how your you know ordinance got got worded so obviously there's you know whether it's a nurse or a um uh you know the front desk or or anybody else I mean I think just that's just like there's a you know a number of so many spaces per square foot your ordiance just says you know inter to deal with the staff usually obviously the doctors being of primary importance and then there's staff to support that doctor um that's just how your ordinance got got written so I think that's why it's the two per per one doctor so um with that said we have um two more witnesses um the next witness is really only going to be for the purposes of introducing and moving into evidence um three three documents and that's going to be um Mason lazor Mason are you Mason I'm here okay um Mason let's get you your sworn in please please raise your right hand do you swear from the testimony that you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do please state your name and spell your last name for the record Mason laser last name l a z o r and your title and business address I am Executive Vice President of Darkstar development uh business address 52 Akerson Street River Edge New Jersey okay okay thank you councelor um so Mason you have been uh involved in um the approvals of this project both on the last hearing as well as putting together of the materials and the um the application for this particular uh hearing this is correct okay and you had submitted under my cover letter dated March 8th 2024 to Mr atler um the land use Clerk of the Barrow uh you submitted three documents U which I'd like to thank you um so the first one you have up on your screen if that's my letter correct cover letter okay so the first attachment is is if you scroll down okay this is the letter of intent that we referred to earlier dated October 9th 20123 with a revision date of November 20th uh 2023 um were you involved in uh preparing uh this Loi yes I drafted this document okay and um is this a and you could scroll down um this is the document could scroll down a little bit more um we're really not necessarily talking about the terms of of the LOI but um this is what we refer to before with the LOI being being fully executed this is correct signed by Paul Amber and uh Jose Lozano was referenced earlier the leads the ha andac real estate team okay and this this document um is a true and acccurate um copy of the document that was actually signed by these individuals that's correct okay so I'd like to move this into evidence as exhibit a-2 all right and I'll just note that it is a redacted letter or letter of intent this is not the complete agreement because the complete agreement doesn't have the redactions correct that's correct yeah we we redacted some of the sensitive information regarding terms yes all right thank that'll be A2 thank you for counselor okay so the next document uh Mason okay we haven't um we haven't spoken about this document as of yet I alluded to it in my opening opening statement so can you describe what this document is sure um this is a letter from Les whitesman who is vice president of Park America Inc who is the operator and manager of the New Jersey Transit parking lot at the Newbridge Landing station okay um and is based on your interaction with uh Mr whitesman um is he authorized to provide this letter on behalf of Park America as well as New Jersey Transit that's correct yeah this is a commitment to least um a number of parking spaces uh which they are the fully um as the operator manager of the parking lot they are fully authorized to manage the parking spaces in that lot um incl including leases to uh various individuals or businesses okay and letter says um right now leas leasing up to 20 20 parking spaces and I think that was based on the U the requirement of the four four doctors uh do you believe if you Circle back to Mr Weissman you can get some additional parking spaces least to you yes I do we are familiar with that a lot we we see a lot we M we help maintain a lot in terms of snow plowing um at this business so we're well well versed in it and kind of see it on a day-to-day basis basis being so close to it and how much it is used okay so um is this also a uh accurate aside from the redacted portion is this an accurate copy of the letter that you received from Mr Weissman this is correct I'd like to move this into evidence as exhibit a-3 okay and the next document Mason okay can you so this is a this is a image from Google Earth this this is an image from Google Earth depicting the walking path from one of the furthest points of the new bridg Landing parking lot which you can see over here uh to the property of 335 Johnson have so I I use this to highlight um and and give a snapshot of the overall look um we did I did also personally wield this off um and come up with this distance of just over a th000 feet about 1,800 feet walk path okay and you and right and you said that's to the furthest um furthest parking space or furthest yeah so there there's the Lots kind of the train tracks run along here and there's two lots this is generally the main daily commuter lot and this is more of the um least lot over here and generally less used no kind so you you you took the most extreme approach notwithstanding the ordinance says go from the closest I believe it says the closest parking space between the subject property and the offsite parking location you went um you went to the closest on for Johnson Avenue but to the furthest uh for the off parking that's correct that's correct okay I would like to know too um as you guys may be aware that it's you know fully sidewalked traffic lighted at each intersection it's a very it's a very safe and walkable path okay and was this um exhibit prepared either by yourself or under your direction myself yes okay and it's dated uh March 6 20124 is that when you pulled down this image yes okay and it's an image from Google Earth but you then put in the The Walking path uh the walking path is from Google or but I did verify this um you know myself with The Walking wheel um on foot you you field measured it yes okay okay I'd like to move uh this into evidences exhibit a-4 thank thank you I have um no further questions for Mason if any of the board members have any questions on these exhibits uh let me start with uh the uh with our planner Mr Barett sure uh good evening so Ju Just the only question I have is um and I suspect others may have it is that um you know this agreement with the uh NJ Transit parking facility you know how how long I guess do you propose to be uh engage with them or have an agreement with them they can offer it at a on an annual basis um and given that you know we we again we we work for these folks and we have a good relationship with them so we expect you know within for perpetuity uh we will be able to utilize utilize this lot and um I know the town's been reviewing that site probably for 50 years and it hasn't been developed yet but if it ever were to be developed you you know I guess you'd be you'd have to find another place to park is that something you'd be willing to uh figure out as that need might arise correct that'd be correct okay that's all I have thank you okay uh Mr Keno I saw your hand up start with you yeah U thank you so I've got a number of questions um I've parked in that lot for I don't know 20 30 years now so I'm very very familiar with it first of all that backlog can we get that uh uh docum back up again showing the little dots all right so let's begin with the back lot okay the the front lot gets filled up by 8 a. and it's completely uh uh full then the back lot is other spots that are available now that one gets pretty full as well but if you were to park in that lot for the doctor's office you would be walking over railroad tracks so You' be forcing these patients to walk over railroad tracks all the way to kinder KAC cross Kinder KAC which is actually not a very easy Crossing and I've done it myself the light changes very quickly and then go all the way down to Johnson app I don't see that happening I see anybody looking for other parking and spilling over to whatever is nearby and there are commuter Lots nearby as well if they're not full and I think Total Wine has a lot over there I think people are going to park across the street I don't think there's any way they're going to that lot down um the letter of intent that I saw if I'm not mistaken said slipnot LLC so I don't know if it applies to this because I think you're Darkstar I'm not sure if it's the same company or not but the um go ahead you want me to address those I mean sure you can you can jump in yeah um slipnot is the owner of the property 335 Johnson AV um Darkstar development is the developing company you know working on this application both of these companies are owned by Paul Amber um as a SLE proprietor um so it is it is relevant um but we did name name it in the properties's um name um I do want to also address the the intent of what we're what we're proposing for the parking and this will be further detailed in the next witness but um the medical tenant Hackensack Hospital would be given priority in reserve parking on site uh for those patients coming in and out so they entirety of their parking will be on site and the regular office space that is proposed for Let It Grow um and our employees from a day-to-day basis we would be the ones that would utilize the site parking so Med medical patients at no time would be directed um to this parking lot offsite so this parking lot outside is for the doctors and staff it is for no it is for the third level of the building office which is proposed currently as let grow office all right look I I'll be perfectly honest I think there's not enough spots over there are already to uh to um um uh service the commuters U uh and with all the building that has just happened nearby in hackin sack I think you're going to get increased traffic as well so I think this particular parking proposal that you guys are proposing all the way down here um I think that's very problematic and I also Echo the uh earlier uh statements that I it just does not seem that what's under the building is sufficient both in in the number of spots um and uh in the size of the spots given the ambulance I still don't see how it works um and then of course you know it also depends on the types of patients that you you ultimately have there uh you know if it's a geriatric practice you know that tyght parking lot might be a lot tighter uh than if it's a different type of practice so I don't know it just seems a little too much in that small space that's it for now thanks okay thank you Miss Bolan uh that was my question who would use that uh that talking area that's down the down the street and it's been answered okay thank you uh Mr GI no I have nothing more than what Mr Keno brought up I have similar concerns uh but nothing nothing in addition okay thanks uh Mr Craig I have one question and the um the letter of intent from Meridian was for 10 years I believe with a an option for fiveyear Renewal that's correct would you get the same commitment from the management of the parking lot with a 10e lease with for five years so so that it ners the the intent ofas at this time we were we were not able to secure a multi-year lease um most likely due to their agreement um being renewed on an annual basis with NJ Transit there's really no commitments if if if if if there if their association with New Jersey Transit goes away your deal goes away right I mean so there's no there's no uh certainty that you've got have that solution in place after the first year but you've got a 10e commitment to I can Mar yeah I mean knowing it's a a stable parking lot that is is there and available um that is you know that's the intent to to utilize that but it it is it is on an annual basis okay that's all thanks okay uh for the record just like to state that uh our zoning officer Mr Steve dekin is now here at 8:47 I think the next on uh questions I'm gonna go to Mr Fe yeah I have no further questions thank you okay Mr Keno yeah I'm sorry I just something that was said resonated a couple minutes after after I heard it so when when I was asking uh Mr Lazar uh about the parking lot now initially Miss Chase was testifying that the spots are all for the doctors the nurses and the patients and then we suddenly heard that there's the third floor tenant that is now going to be using this outside parking lot so that's not even accounting for the Overflow patients that Mr Gibbons pointed out so where do those patients Park when the parking lot is full I'll I'll let the our next next witness answer that in a little more detail um regarding those P accounts but it it will be clarified there okay uh Mr merman couple of questions from Mason um the documents that you just admitted have redactions as noted by Miss steinley at some point will or um legal council get to see an unducted um version of this only for their purposes yeah I think if necessary that would you know to authenticate the veracity of it I don't see that being an issue we just didn't want um certain certain items I I understand that yes yes that the board members don't need to see that information M steinley would you uh comment on that that you would require or prefer or some reason like to see an unducted copy at some point I I don't know if that would be necessary um my question would be whether there's an actual lease agreement for the parking um parking space commitment it's only a letter there's no other no other details and it's not signed by um slipnot it's only signed by the park America okay that's fine you answer my question um one further question Mason um you alluded that there was a u another witness that you folks were going to put on would that be the person to uh more closely identify and well discuss the uh offsite parking itself um I'm not sure I guess maybe it depends on the question specifically well I'd like to discuss the offside parking per se m c can you give me the um background of the person your next witness is it a planner is it is it it is the planner yes okay so I'm going to um um hold my particular questions to to the planner then but uh my other questions but yes um I I have very uh grave concerns regarding the parking situation myself and Mr chairman at this point um I'm GNA reserve my comments for the planer okay thank you Mr mman and my question was asked by Mr CRA so I will turn it back over to Mr sarlo thank thank you Mr chairman U before I call the next I just do want to address the the comment about potentially um submitting unredacted versions of the the two documents the LOI well the two Lois um that wouldn't be not common practice um especially for hackin sack Meridian as everybody knows the documents that are submitted to the planning board or subject to uh open public records act request U and it would be um potential hurt the negotiating um position of hacken sack Meridian for any other facilities locations that they would be um looking to um lease in the particular area that would be unreasonable request and I think yeah I think I think we've already covered cover that issue so you we can we can move on okay thank thank you Mr chairman okay so I'd like to call our last witness which is um Mr TJ Richie from Stonefield engineering professional planner Mr Richie you please raise your right hand do you swear or affirm that the testimony that you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do could you please state your name spell your last name and provide your address to the record sure first name TJ last name REI R ICI business address is 92 Park AV in raford New Jersey and I know that you were you provided testimony on this application previously but could you just remind the board of your qualifications sure uh licensed professional planner in the state of New Jersey member of the American Institute of certified planners uh I've testified in front of well over 75 different boards throughout the state including this one uh all my licenses are active and in good standing any questions from the board on Mr R's qualifications okay Mr s thank you Mr chairman um Mr Richie so uh you were the planner um during the initial application back in July August September that is correct okay and you've been on Zoom since the beginning of this particular hearing I have okay so you've heard all of the applicants um Witnesses testify as well as the questions posed to um all the witnesses by the board members yes I have okay and and um we're going to ask you to obviously provide your your testimony with regard to professional planning you know there are two variances that's being requested the parking variance um as well as the distance for the offsite location being proposed um but I think and I'm going to let you handle your testimony any way you deem appropriate but I think what's going to be important for the board members is to fully understand the numbers of um the numbers we'll leave it at that right the parking the the number parking spaces per user Etc yeah yeah absolutely I agree I think that's the most important part uh before I jump right into the variances and the numbers I just give a a a little background because I think it'll uh help preface the presentation nicely so I'm sure as either all of the board members or at least most of the board members are aware uh this was an application that it got approved for office only uh now the applicant intends to still uh stay on one of those floors it was two floors of office essentially hackin saac maridian Health uh which is a medical office use so technically a different use different parking requirement uh is uh you know if we are to receive an approval and they are to uh follow through with their commitment uh enter just that one that one of those two office spaces so then we would have a a split building office use and then the other half would be the medical office use uh I'm sure as the board is aware medical office requires uh a different parking requirement so that's essentially what brought us back to the board uh for this uh parking variance now the requirement for the site is 136 total spaces uh medical office in the burrow requires two per doctor plus one per 100 square feet of floor space uh and as you remember from the testimony the last approval we had 58 spaces proposed on the site but now that's 57 with the ambulance space so required is 136 57 is is what is proposed um so you've heard the testimony from Mrs Chase uh about Hack and Sack Meridian health networks parking demand they generally look for uh a one space per 200 square feet and with the 9,000 square foot medical office space that comes out to 45 spaces um that is also in line with uh a lot of other uh typical medical office zoning requirements that we see uh that would be the five per thousand uh that's not something that's uh uncommon for this type of use uh once again I think that that aligns with with their needs and their you know their corporate standards of what they look for when they uh when they go and and look at a site so just to kind of go over the numbers 45 spaces out of the 57 on the site are going to be dedicated solely for Hack and Sack Meridian health uh just for the board's clarification that will be the doctors for Hack and Sack Meridian health that will be the staff members and that will be their patient so nobody for the medical office tenant uh will be parking anywhere off of the site uh but the way that we work out that 45 number uh taking it I guess one step further than just saying the one per 200 is adequate based on hackin saac mine's needs um they have the the seven doctors plus the 15 staff members uh gives us 22 spaces required for for basically all the hackin sack meran staff and then they have uh 20 exam rooms so another 20 patients in addition to the 22 staff members uh brings us to that 42 number um so you know 42 43 is really what the what the parking demand uh would be based on their operational characteristics and like we said we have 45 that are reserved solely for hackin sack Meridian health so uh a couple space extra uh you know if we look at it in that analysis I think this you know also going back to that one per 200 which would land us at the 45 number I think both of those kind of analyses uh align with what we have here on the site so we have the 57 total on site 45 are for hackin sack marinan Health there's that leaves 12 left over for the office use uh which is the applicant they they tenant they're you know will are proposing to tenant uh the other space so they they have a little bit more control over I guess where their their employees uh and where their people uh are told to park and can park so as testified in the last hearing they have on a maximum approximately 30 employees so 12 of those employees will park on the project site and then as it was mentioned by Mason they Reserve 20 spaces off site uh so that brings us to 32 provided spaces uh for the Let It Grow office uh as I said they have about 30 employees if that's if everybody comes to work uh that day and drives a car and doesn't take the train nearby uh they still have a surplus of of two spaces for their employees um so so that's kind of where we're at with the uh with the parking numbers so we are seeking the variance for the uh for the number of spaces and also parking uh offsite uh at the NJ Transit site as Mason mentioned there's uh we we we confirm this as well you have the uh accessible walking paths uh crosswalks everything like that so we did confirm that the path would actually uh connect from that lot to the site uh so it is a very realistic uh uh way to park offsite and generally what you look for uh I know the ordinance has the provision that no more than uh 200 feet can the parking be provided offsite uh but there's a lot of uh planning literature and good planning principles that promote the quarter mile walking distance that's 1,320 uh linear feet and as Mason mentioned we're about a th000 feet within that lot uh it's about a f minute walking distance from a planning standpoint that is a very realistic uh walking distance for uh Daily Office employees to park their car and then head on over to their office uh that being said so so those are the parking numbers we are deficient uh in terms terms of the zoning ordinance but I think the way that we kind of did this alternative analysis was we were able to quantify uh what each user would need and then be able to get these uh appropriate spaces to actually make sure that we supply enough parking for the actual demand that's going to be needed on the site uh typically with parking uh especially when you have such a high requirement you would never uh it it's good planning practice to not build more than you need and I know that we don't have enough on site but the fact that NJ Transit does have the capacity to serve another use in the nearby vicinity I think is also a good good planning principle it's good efficient use of land especially if that lot is sitting uh and those parking spots are available and they're not being used so that kind of sharing of those of this land in the area I think is is good planning practice um so so really I think that you know once again we've Quantified this demand I think we've showed that the uh that the lot nearby has capacity to support us wouldn't it make sense uh entirely to build anything that's unnecessary for uh this user especially when you have these spaces that are available sitting vacant uh I think that's good planning um and I think that that's why uh these variances can be granted subject to uh the leasing of those spaces for all the users on the site uh yeah that concludes my direct but I'm happy to take any questions thank you Mr Richie Mr chairman okay uh Mr Barons sure good evening uh Mr Richi um I guess I'll start off with uh given your familiarity of the area um you know obviously there there are a few other similar type Office Buildings you know two stories of office above parking do you have a sense of how those other sites have accommodated parking either from a numerical standpoint or you know functional standpoint do you have you looked at that by any chance uh in terms of like operationally how they park or or even in like number parking spaces if you don't have that answer that's fine I just thought it might be worth uh discussing yeah yeah I I I don't have those uh exact numbers but I I you know I don't it doesn't appear that they have any any offsite uh parking Arrangements it appears that they Park generally on their site right understood and and we're concerned primarily with the uses being proposed so I understand that um I I don't know if I have any questions at this point um I'll say that I I do think the Burrows medical office parking standard is is a bit on the high side compared to what I've seen um we've heard you know the the applicants presentation and the testimony that's been offered um you know I think it's apparent that at least some off-site parking is required they've uh they're offering a solution uh that you know it is where it is um and so at this point it's just a question of you know can can the uses be accommodated there as proposed by the applicant um one thought or suggestion that I did have is that um I believe the burrow owns a a parking lot adjacent to the NJ Transit lot I don't know about the availability but um if there were spaces available there uh for permits I don't know if that's something the applicant would consider just a suggestion or a thought okay thank you Sterns uh Miss bowan no I have no questions okay Mr Gibbons uh just wanted to clarify a few things um we we provided a variance for parking in the last uh session and I believe it was 12 parking spaces is that accurate for the if it was off as used for two stories I believe that's correct yes um so that would basically say that we gave an ordinance for six spots for the we'll call it the Let It Grow section of it right would that be a variance for six spots yeah essentially is what we did okay um and just to clarify um you had mentioned a 12 or 1300t distance was appropriate for off street parking is that I think you said something along those lines of having it about that distance yeah yeah I said we used the quarter mile walking distance in in transit oriented development projects because that's the that's what we think is the realistic uh distance that someone would would walk and what I I believe we heard two different numbers of what that distance looks like because that doesn't look like 1,200 square feet to me uh I don't know if that was Mr Lazar I don't know what number you said earlier I thought you said 1,800 square feet is that I I think think he said I think he said 1800 with the you know for walking down Johnson and then across and then wrapping around in the parking lot but generally that from a planning uh walking distance standpoint you measure that usually as the crow flies which is a straight 1320 linear feet so I think those numbers are probably pretty close then because of the way that they were measured did Mason did I say anything that contradicted anything that you presented yes so the true walk path along the sidewalks is 1,080 uh so it's under 1100 it's it's two10 of a mile I think it's 1,800 okay yeah 1080 so under 1100 as the crow flies it's about 860 860 ft um I guess I don't necessarily have any questions for you I'm just I'm still concerned that you don't have a lease for that other property uh to park there and you know if that is developed then you don't have a lease and we have a problem um so I I still not convinced that we don't have a parking problem here that's it for me thank you Mr gibons Mr peffer yeah thank you just um hearing listening carefully to everyone else's comments and questions um my concern and maybe you can help reassure me um is that even if you even if you lease the the lot next to the uh the train station for the Let It Grow employees the Surplus or the Overflow from the site parking um I just I just don't find it believable that people are going going to park there because if if you picture it and I know that area very well I used to park in that lot also when I was a daily commuter um if they park in that lot and they're going to walk back to the office to go to work they're actually walking past several other parking lots they're walking past the 711 parking lot they're walking past the the uh Green Papaya parking lot they're walking past the the bank parking lot the dental office parking lot the total wine parking lot and I just think especially when it's either 95 degrees out or whether it's two degrees out people are going to look for the closest place to park and so you're going to have people parking in improper parking spaces spaces that they're not supposed to be parking in um and that's going to create problems potentially for for the local businesses because their spaces are going to be occupied by cars all day long that are not shopping there so tell me why I shouldn't be concerned about that yeah I I mean I think that's gonna those lots are going to operate just like any other non-residential parking lot in a town you you can't just park in a in you know a small business or a 7-Eleven parking lot and leave your car there there's usually signage that prevents you from doing that if you know if you continue to do that that you're usually towed I mean that at that point becomes kind of an Enforcement issue um you know I I think it'd be a different story If This Were a bunch of tenants that didn't uh also own the building but the fact that this applicant is going to be vacating their own building I think they have total control over where they're going to make their employees Park I understand there's going to be a lot of lots that you're walking by that look a lot more attractive because they're closer but I think it's like it's an enforcement thing just like anything else you can't I don't think anyone's realistically just going to say this is a little closer so I'm just going to leave my car here I mean if you're not using that business I I I don't think someone would feel so inclined to have some sort of feel some sort of privilege to leave their car in a space that they know it doesn't belong I think that this applicant has to uh enforce this within its own employees and I think that I think that that was the testimony that that's what they're going to do okay that was my question thank you yeah you're welcome thanks okay Mr Craig yeah um I I I just I have to challenge the functional examination the number spaces needed for medical because you ran through the numbers seven doctors 22 total employees including doctors 20 exam rooms that's 42 people now I've been to a lot of medical offices and I have never I can say with 100% confidence I have never gone into a medical office and not had to sit in the waiting room ever okay I can't imagine this facility is going to be different from any of them so if they're fully staffed and if they're fully staffed they're loading up the exam rooms because everybody wants to get you know Revenue per square foot uh they're not going to Li sit empty people are going to be in that waiting room that put you over the 45 and I haven't heard anything to convince me otherwise well I I think we kind of lean back on the testimony from Mrs Chas as well um how they said that hackin sack Maran Health generally looks for that one per 200 which is what we Supply here and she said it's very highly scheduled this is something that they built into that one per 200 number because they use that at other sites and and I believe she quoted it works at other sites so I wouldn't imagine why it wouldn't work here so I think between scheduling SCH numbers you right right I mean I would defer to hackin SAC marinian health for for I guess a more uh detailed explanation on the number of patients that could potentially be um you know in the building at one time but you know from what I remember her saying as well not all you know not every doctor is going to be in not at the same day not every doctor is going to be in at the same time therefore you know not every exam room might be full so there will be some some areas of the building that are you know maybe not in use 100% at the time but I think that we we did account for that for usage of every exam room being full um but I mean you know I'm not sure if they have any anything else that you know they would like to add a little bit of testimony on the number of patients yeah I'm not sure that there is anything else that we can add at at this time but but only kind of repeat that you know this this ratio we have it in almost all of our facilities throughout the state and it and it works for us um and there there are many of our offices and again depending on on the type of practice that's there you know if it's Cardiology they you know they're in they're in the hospital they're doing procedures so they're not there every day all day um and so that takes account into our parking also all right Mr Keno look I I I 100% agree with everything Mr cig said I still haven't heard uh any real answer to the whole waiting room thing I know Hackensack Maran health is a is a great medical provider I've used them myself I've gone to these other facilities for orthopedic surgery and injuries and and so forth I know you know we can't Bas it on ourselves but I'll tell you those other facilities also often have parking issues and they tell you to park somewhere else and then you go and look for the best available spot I think that what's going to happen is when you do have those days where everybody's in and everybody's seeing patience and everybody's running behind and all of a sudden your waiting room is uh full when that late patient comes in they're going to park in the parking lot right across the street which is a mini mall parking lot and they're going to take that space they're going to go across the street and they're going to risk it and then when we talk about enforcement it's easy to say enforcement but who's got to enforce it right like who's going to call the police to come down and and look at this particular patient who's parked in the in the spot for an hour to go see the doctor the patient's not going to be there but the people who paid for the spots and who actually utiliz the spots the mini mall owners they're the ones who are going to be ill affected as far as the far parking lot look it it it's it belongs to somebody else but I already like I said I've been parking there for years I know that when winter comes and and we haven't had heavy snow really for a couple of years but before that half that parking lot is full of snow like all the snow is piled up there's no spots and and then all of a sudden I'm scrambling to look for slots elsewhere as are other commuters I don't know especially if New Jersey Transit is not willing to give a fiveyear commitment to match the commitment of hackin saac maridian Health that we can count on it who knows what's going to happen next year when somebody in New Jersey Transit has a great idea and decides to do something with it so I I would love a business like hacken Meridian health to come in and everything but I think that you know we're a very small town and and the roads are congested and they're getting more and more congested with all the uh buildings up in Hack and Sack and I think that you know this is going to end up being a very well-used place and it just I don't see enough parking spots here I just don't I'm done I'm not sure if you said something mute CH just have to mute for myself dick you there yes I'm here okay all right I know that you're looking for a uh perf I want to move this along and I'm going to be as sutin as I can be um um Mr Richie yes may may Mason explain your side parking rationale our planner um referred to earlier his comments about prior site development um on this on this parcel of parcels and um I'm going to have one quick question to you will be two and the first one is what guarantees do you have that parking will exist for 75 to 100 years from now for this building life for this site um and I believe your answer is going to be no guarantee correct I I that is correct I don't think we would feel comfortable agreeing to yeah providing parking there for 75 years all right likewise um and I'm sure you're aware of this um the New York metropolitan area engineering community including the core of engineers are becoming increasingly concerned and preparing for eventual higher water higher Coastal Waters so likewise can you guarantee parking this parking site will not be underwater during the 75 to 100 year building life as indicated uh by your architect and I think we know the answer but let's go on the record we cannot guarantee that thank you Mr chairman I rest my case Okay um I think we have we've got about 10 minutes left before for our curfew I would I know we've got folks in the audience who from the public who want to be heard on this um all right let's uh let's open to the public we're going to make it fast um and keep uh keep comments to uh to two minutes let's uh I'll look for a motion to open for the public at this time no moved thank you m b for a second thank you Mr Cay all in favor any oose the abstain all right this time we're now open to the public if you wish to be heard on this application please raise your hand or on Zoom there are three members of the public so if you're interested in asking a question or comment please raise your hand now there we go and Dr fer if you could please state your name and address for the record before you make a comment or question I think you're on mute you're muted Dr fer can you hear me now yes yes okay good sorry about that yes all right we're gonna keep comments limited here on a timeline so yeah yeah so I'll try and keep this really quick um yeah I'm sensitive to all the different I'm sorry before you get just your name and address just for the record address well my my office is 1060 Main Street in Riv New Jersey okay okay so I'm sensitive to uh everything everybody said in all the different ways I I agree that um it's a challenging situation I know it was already challenging before you were bringing a medical a medical group uh tenant in and you needed to get an you know um a variance for that for parking and then to make it even harder you've got a medical group so but I'm a medical group so I understand and I've also landlord I've also had uh several different offices all around Bergen County and Essex County um over the years and Essex County yeah and and pic County and Rockin County so I've been a lot of places with a lot of different offices so I'm sensitive to that I'm also sensitive to the fact that you'll be right across the street and I I could see the very very minimum of all the off street parking in some days being taken being used um one of the reasons I moved to this area area I was in glenpoint before this huge parking lot but it was always crowded not always crowded but it was crowded a lot and the problem with parking is yes there are times when offices are slower and they have enough parking but you really have to prepare for the times when the offices are not slow and if I go to uh hackens sack has a medical office on P in pamis and it's huge building and it's when when it's really quiet at certain times of day you could get parking but when it's busy it's hard to find parking there you have to go around the parking lot and wait for somebody to get out of a spot um so I I'm concerned about that happening for you and I know when I first came in one of the solutions for this is they tell people don't put so many treatment rooms in you know if if they rather than looking for parking all over maybe one of the solutions should be not have 20 treatment rooms 30 seconds um okay um so I'm open to other things I'm curious to see how this uh I I see the challenges for you Paul and I see the concerns for the county and I really agree uh I don't see people going to that all the way to that far lot but uh I'm open for suggestions and help at the same time okay I'm done thank you okay thank you Dr is there anybody else in the public who wishes to be heard on this application please raise your hand on Zoom all right if you please state your name and address for the record yes hi Timothy Corston representing the estate of tamborelli um we just have some concerns uh not so much with the medical use as the fact that trying to have Let It Grow use this other lot which is you know far away and uh you know asking us to police it is I don't think Fair um I also am curious about what do you do about elderly employees or persons with disability walking that kind of distance um so that's just our concern we're not it's it's a real concern we hope we wish they had a better solution obviously also concerned that it's a a one-year lease so if you give an approval based upon that which is the foundation of the application what do you do when the lease if the lease isn't renewed is it is does the use turn does one of the uses terminate uh so it's pretty complex when you have that type of Limited lease um perhaps a a better requirement would be to require potentially valid parking and a real lease at least that has some length to it I know there's many medical facilities uh that have valet parking to deal with the a disabilities and B lack of parking thank you okay than thank Mr Carson anyone else in the public wish to be heard on this application please raise your hand on Zoom okay i' like to take that as there's no further comment from the public I'll look for a motion then to close to the public please second I think I got a first Mr given and a second from Miss Boland all in favor Iain okay we're now closed to the public for comment on this application um Mr sarlo at this time I I think you've heard some concerns uh and hesitations from the board as far as this application Mr K I'll get you to you in a second um well Mr can why don't to go ahead and ask you a question I'll finish my thought I was just thinking try trying to again think outside the box here I know that there's other buildings in the area and whenever I walk by them those parking lot seem empty has any thought been given to contacting those landlords and seeing if that there's any U availability for uh spots that you may lease from them which is much closer and then it would make more sense other people then would not be parking in the adjacent parking lot because it would be something much closer that was my only question and thought if I if I could address that sure so we did we we in fact Paul and barado um spoke to number of surrounding property owners and and we did the um the issue the issue there is if we submit it if we submitted a another parking lot to use that space um what's we have we'd have to do an analysis of that property um because the first thing the first review letter that gets written by your professionals is going to be okay the parking lot's empty today but that office office building requires 50 parking spaces and there's 50 parking spaces there so you can't even though it's empty you can't lease because you're creating a parking variance there and that's the difficulty with any ordinance that allows for offsite parking such as the the barrows ordinance is it's there it's encouraged by good public policy but sometimes it's impractical because of what I just described here the benefit is we do have a public parking facility that we do not have that issue of creating a parking variance um and I you know I go on but I I just want to address that and I'll turn it back to the chairman before I do my summation okay well I think at this point you you've heard the board's expressed several concerns I think part of it is also the fact too that we really don't have any sense of what hackin sack Meridian is is anticipating using the space for other than quote unquote medical it's a it's sort of a it's it's a hard thing to quantify at this point and I think the board is having difficulty grasping with with with that issue as well um so I I'll leave it to you to if you want us to proceed this evening if you want uh to hold the board if you want to S of take stock of what we've had discussions here this evening um I I'll turn it back to you at this point okay thank thank you Mr shman so um we we certainly heard all the concerns um they're all concerns um Everybody obviously um is entitled to uh their opinion and their concerns um I think where we're at is um we have no choice but to move forward notwithstanding the cons the the concerns and the positions I think we heard from the board and why do I say that is we have uh a reputable tenant that wants this location there are no other parking options as I had um just discussed in terms of surrounding uh uses unless a property becomes available to purchase and use it as a as a parking lot um within 200 feet which M may be unrealistic and is also a realistic purchase price um it's just not there's not going to be any other any other options like I said um the benefit is even though it does that we need a variance um and it doesn't you know uh comply with your ordinance is we have public parking um to use um versus relying on on private parking all of the concerns of the board with regard to um the fiveyear lease that's in your ordinance and potentially get using private parking lots those are all going to be the same concerns do you think a a property owners want to tie up their property with a fiveyear lease for parking um when the real estate market is hot could to be hot and they may that may be a constraint on them potentially selling the property or redeveloping the property it's just unrealistic um in in in a real world practical sense um they someone may give a five-year lease with a 30-day out um would that be enough to satisfy the board I could tell you um hearing hearing the concerns and their valid concerns um is if the board was to approve this application certainly there's going to be a condition about having off-site parking at the New Jersey Transit lot that's going to be a condition and if at any point in time my client cannot provide that parking and cannot find suitable other parking to substitute he's violating the condition of his approval and if the board is aware of what happens when you violate a condition of an approval it's a zoning violation it's no different than if you or I put up a eight foot fence on our residential property when only four feet or six feet is required your zoning officer can be there will be there and every day that there we cannot provide proof that we have the requisite off-site parking is a zoning violation and that zone violation is a daily occurrence and adds up very significantly very quickly so it only behooves my client to not only be looking at the present but the immediate future and the future because one if that New Jersey Transit lot gets sold or he cannot park there anymore uh he violates the zoning his his approval it's a zoning violation um I am not saying that the town would revoke his Co but certainly would be he would sub be subject to um a zoning code violation on it on a daily basis um I do wholeheartedly agree with Mr Richie's answer to one of the the questions um in terms of the deterrent to park somewhere else um it's a uh it is an enforcement but I don't think it's an Enforcement issue for the burrow um it's it it is a Enforcement issue by the surrounding Property Owners um some Property Owners may be a little bit more V uh diligent and uh Vigilant in who's parking in their Lots but a lot of these um these uh property owners that have large parking spaces uh parking lots have agreements with towing companies and they pay them nothing and the towing companies are doing the enforcement why because for every car that they could tow they're make they're they have you know very large fees attached to that um and if anybody has ever had their car towed for illegal parking whether it was by a public ENT by a public entity Towing the car or in a private lot it's not a great experience it's not only costly it's just not a great experience to retrieve your car it's a whole day so um and may be there are going to be individuals that visit this site um that have not gone through that experience and will try and park um elsewhere um but I think the general population understands the potential ramifications of of not parking I think Mr Richie had you know also indicated this is just not um customers coming to the site uh patients coming to the site that's not going to have the parking um it's let it grows own employees and so there is control over you knowk um I think the the one question I think I somewhat um answered it and by uh but Mr manman did a great setup when he asked the architect the longevity of the building 75 to 100 Years of lifespan and then he segue that to the question to the planner can you guarantee parking for 75 to 100 years in um the offsite location um it was kind of a a great great setup however having said that um nobody ever said Hack and Sack Meridian going to be there for 75 to 100 years the building may be there as an office building and we already have approval from this board for two floors of office space for the longevity of this of this building um and just one other comment with regard to the parking the number the your parking standards and your own planner um uh has even said based on his experience as well as the applicant's planner um on based on his experiences the parking standard for the medical use in your town um is is is High um based on other surrounding municipalities um not sure if you know maybe during the next you know master plan reexamination that you know needs to potentially um be be take taken a look at but the point here is you have two professionals saying it's a high standard and we all know that parking standards are theoretical right I I look you when you this boort has heard applications for multif family right 1.8 parking spaces for a one-bedroom 1.8 right you know everybody jokes about that but it's a theoretical parking standard um and that's no different than it is here these are standards based on planning studies and and and some some um some theory behind it but when you hear real life testimony of an actual user that has 500 locations and unequivalently testifies that this standard is appropriate and suitable for this user that's hard to overcome in my opinion that's not that's not Theory that's not one one one location that maybe is um not you know used that often you know this is a tenant with a reputable history and 500 locations that the data is based on that is to me is more powerful than a the theoretical number of how many parking spaces so the numbers are the numbers and then that's why we wanted to present we had to present we had to put in the application we had a notice for the zoning ordinance numbers deficiency um and the board if they so inclined would have to grant that parking variance but we also get a chance to mitigate or try and convince the board to mitigate and I think we have done a a good job through the testimony of mitigating based on real life um real life examples real life life data as well as off-site parking um mitigation efforts so um you parking is always a limiting constraint to any development opportunity I'm sure this board in almost every application that they hear um there is a parking variance uh this one happens to be based on the numbers a large number but again um as Mr Richie went through the numbers based on our position our analysis um as we present it we've we've mitigated that down to basically in a real life sense no no variance and I I use that word lightly because it is a Varian but you know no deficiency I think that may be a better way way to put it so um we do appreciate um the board's uh consideration um we do believe it's a it's a obviously a great tenant a reputable tenant um and we do need um relief that we don't ask this board lightly um for that relief we know it's a heavy lift um but all things being considered um and the mitigating factors in the real life data uh we certainly hope that the board would take that into consideration so I thank you for your time and and consideration okay any final comments or questions from the board I'll make statement yeah I do have a comment I make and there's one thing I think I can't help taking into account here which is that we started with a green field with okay a lot of the variances that we end up giving for parking or for coverage or whatever it may be is because people are dealing with existing conditions um and and situations happen that that that drive request for variance this was Greenfield okay we reviewed variances for you in the original subs and gave you variance on setbacks on height on parking you maximized your coverage as far as your building goes okay that was a conscious choice and you take risk when you do that okay you didn't you didn't inherit an existing condition say okay now I've got uh you know a situation changing the fact that you're already under uh populated with parking was a conscious decision that was made based on you doing an office use now the situation changed and now you come back for another variance it's like somebody building a new house maxing out the coverage and coming back three months later saying J you know I really want to put a CO in too um you know there there was decision making here that in my mind I got to take into account when I started looking at how do I how do I weigh this so I just I just wanted to make that point because this didn't happen in a vacuum Mr merman yes I just make a a brief closing statement um uh to my fellow board members um you know when considering this application you've heard a lot of uh good testimony good comments All I do is I urge my board members to apply good land use principles and sound Common Sense applications that's my comment Mr chairman okay um at this time I'll look to the board for well Mr s you you I think just to confirm you you wish us to proceed on on on the on the application this evening is that correct uh yes Mr chair okay um that being the case I'll look to the board for a motion on the application please Miss steinley does not sound like it does not appear that we have anyone wishing to make a motion on the application at this time um so does the board want to carry this application to another meeting or a motion to deny the application typically we don't we take affirmative motions but we don't but that it's a possibility if if we're making a motion we're not necessarily supporting or not supporting do we if we need to have a motion is that basically the case at this point M I'm sorry someone no I think Mr gibons was asking do we need a motion one on this on the application one way or the other at this time yes I'm yes we'll need some sort of action to be taken either yeah to take to take action on the application tonight or if you think that the Board needs additional time we're still within the statutory time period to make to take action on the application but if you don't think anything all the testimonies has been presented so I'm I would expect that a motion could be heard tonight so Mr chairman my just for clarification we we either have a motion to approve we have a motion to deny we have a motion to table or if we don't do anything we just remain silent then I guess it automatically gets carried over to the next meeting are those the options or to a future meeting so if the board does nothing and makes no motion and the time period for the board to Act expires then the application is automatically approv um so we'll need to do some sort of action preferably tonight well I'll make this easy um I I will make a motion to approve with the conditions that were outlined with the remote parking being committed to and the uh the the 20 offsite spots as well as the U the spots that have been submitted on the on the property okay so we have a motion from Mr Craig is there a second Mr chairman may I add an addendum to that motion please do okay I propose that any additional medical related space or doctors requires land use Board review and approval for parking requirements likewise any change in medical tency requires review and approval for site plan and that's basically what we do with our food handl principle that's am M gray that's acceptable okay so we have so we still need a so would you be a second Mr merman with those conditions well he accept he accepted the conditions correct yes he did so we still need we still need a second I think technically M stle we a second on the motion we only have the motion from Mr Cay so you've amended Mr cra's motion we still need a second on it Jesus Christ Mr merman are you seconding the motion I'll second the motion that's fine okay thank you Mr GI M Mr chairman can I just get a clarification of that second condition I understand the first one if there's more I think the first one is if there's more than seven doctors we have to come back and that would trigger another variants and I I I I think that's clearcut that's what was represented that was the testimony but um I Mr merman kind of cut it in and out on my audio the second one is what to okay if there's a change of medical tency that will require a Board review and approval for site plan okay so I I didn't do you cut out on the tency so if it's hackin sack Meridian we're fine if it's another if we don't de do the deal with hackin sack Meridian and somebody I that's perfectly fine okay so before we vote M can you just recap what the motion is please for for the so right now we have a motion to approve with the conditions requiring um off-site parking um of at least 20 spaces as presented by the applicant if there are additional medical spaces required it will require additional landuse approval and if there's a change in the medical tendency it will require um site plan the additional site plan approval I think that was everything Mr K okay Mr merman yeah I'm fine okay okay we'll take a vote all right Mr caslin no m bow uh my concern is not that the testimony for the parking um that is being needed my concern is the ground Le the uh offsite lease if it goes away tomorrow you're not as Mr solo said you're not going to pull a CO um and then we have 20 spaces that have to be made up for somewhere in the area so I'm Al now Mr merman Mr merman your vote he's Frozen you calling me yep for your vote Yes No I vote no vote no okay all right Mr peffer no Mr Craig no Mr kigo no Mr GI no all right the motion fails and so pursuant to the land use law um failure to receive the number of votes required for approval constitutes a denial of the application so the application is denied thank you very much R time thank you thank you Mr s thank you all right uh with the few minutes we do have left this evening uh we do have uh two items to discuss under board member comments uh Mr Barons I'm going to ask if you would mind uh taking the uh the lead on the uh discussions there please uh you're referring to the affordable housing uh matters yes okay so briefly there there's two um bills floating out there uh I'll I'll I'll start with the the larger umbrella affordable housing legislation uh basically there's an effort at the state legislature to uh sort of reinvent the the wheel uh abolish the existing program or protocol which is uh which was governed by the the Council on affordable housing which basically hasn't operated since you know 1999 so we've been under this uh Port process whereby municipalities um had to essentially negotiate with fair share housing center um the rules were unclear the the housing need numbers run clear so in an effort to to address that issue the legislator has come up with this bill it's still not perfect there's there's uh quite a number of issues um there's been some progress in uh addressing some of those issues but some of the major outstanding items um that uh require in our in our opinion further refinement have to do with the methodology uh of how towns will be assigned affordable housing obligations um and the various compliance aspects uh in that regard and one has to do with the time frame there's a very stringent time frame whereby let's say that the legislature adopts this bill towns would have to get started immediately um in working toward uh basically towns have to come up with their need number or at least accept the one that would be provided to them by the by DCA I believe um and then you'd have to you'd have a short window by a number of months to develop your plan and essentially get the plan uh certified and approved by this program so it's it's generally a tight time frame if if you don't adhere to a number of the steps along the way the town could lose their immunity from What's called the Builder Remedy or exclusionary zoning lawsuit uh previously towns working through the affordable housing program would have immunity while they were working through the program this would sort of strip them uh of that immunity um and you know while they're working in good faith toward achieving their their various goals and U just to back up step we're we're currently in the midst of the the third round of affordable housing in New Jersey which takes uh which will expire in July of 2025 so from now is just over a year away so River Edge as it currently stands has a plan to satisfy its current obligation uh again up until that time frame and so it's expected that the state legislature this point will adopt some form of the bill um we just don't know when that will come and and you know what revisions may occur between now and then um but it's you know we'll keep you in the loop in terms of uh how things develop well requirements are if any but again regardless of of this bill that the burrow will have to start working toward its um you know fourth round plan there will be some obligation some need to address that um it's our recommendation to all all of our municipalities that they start thinking about that some have formed U subcommittees again to start looking at you know we know there's going to be some obligation let's look at what we've done what we need to do to address again the third round but also what might be coming uh again because there there's some looming obligation um and second to that bill there's a separate what they're calling an accessory dwelling unit um legislation we'll call that and an accessory dwelling unit basically says that if you have a single family home you can build a a second uh unit on your property could be in the basement could be in in a garage could be in a a detached structure on the property and there's support for this there's several other states that have this um as far as I can tell it's it's sort of a blanket uh permission that the state would allow so it would apply to essentially every municipality and in every applicable context which again from from our position that you know it may work well in some context but you know not not this blanket uh you know uh permission we'll call it so um again some of the nuances are that you would again have single family zones which would now have to allow these things as of right you could still maintain some zoning requirements in terms of coverage uh setbacks Etc but again you could have conversions of basements conversions of garages you could have separate structures built in the rear yard that could be used as accessory dwelling units and again this would be a second unit on the property so that that's in essence what those two um bills are that are out there Tom just to be clear on that if it's in if it's in conflict with building card it could be allow or no I'm sorry repeat that please I didn't hear you it's in conflict with with with zoning it can be disallowed or you know if I want to you know I'm I'm pretty maxed out on coverage if I wanted to put a new structure in the backyard I can do it under this in even though it's not in compliance so it so it doesn't do away with zoning that there would still be some guid lines I think it's unclear exactly how each municipality would address that but they're trying to pave the pet so that it it becomes easier to allow these things um so so again you you would be able to maintain some some zoning requirements but you you would have to make it feasible that somebody could do this and and again it doesn't necessarily mean building a separate structure it could be converting an existing garage it could be in a basement so it basically makes every home in River Edge susceptible to becoming a two family home yeah in essence that's what we all have basements right so why and why do they think this is good there are lots of thoughts throughout the country of how to deal with the um we'll call it the housing issue and and there debates on that on what the actual demand is and you know whether it's regional and you know this I guess attempts to address affordability and maybe it does in some respects but um you know doesn't require any deed restrictions or anything like that so in theory you could have a market rate accessory dwelling unit and still charge three grand a month for you know your pool house or whatever so it's it may Sol I'm sorry go ahead no no no continue I'll I'll wait no it may it may solve you know some problems in some places again I think we have to be aware the state should be aware of unintended consequences you know on the one hand we talk about storm water and coverage and parking on the other hand we're talking about now you know sort of uh you know maybe ignoring some of those things are putting you know depending who you talk to affordable housing you know is the highest priority in in you know the country and the state it's among other priorities so um but again it could make sense at certain locations um but it's it's something that's been brought up I don't know how much traction the accessory dwelling unit legislation has that certainly the the the broader affordable housing uh bill will be adopted in some form at some point probably this year maybe even as soon as next week potentially um but but just to for you to be aware that it's out there and again that this board will ultimately be the board that comes up with a fourth round housing plan and has to you know vet some of those issues moving forward um and it is the case where the state is basically Reinventing the wheel in terms of again how to assign municipalities their affordable housing obligation and how they can deal with you know addressing the obligations so could potentially a building be built because we've got a lot of construction in town that is basically designed to be one of these so if I can convert my b basement then I could essentially build a property that is designed to like Dario said you know could essentially be a two family house without being a two family house I mean is is that realistic that that that could be that could be done on some of these maybe bigger properties I I I think I think that is a real scenario and again given that you comply with certain other requirements but that's that's the idea that that and it's not just New Jersey it's there are other models and places throughout the country there's some some states that even that have done away with single family zoning and you could have up to I think four units on a on a property and and again there's is there anything as a municipality we could do besides our typical zoning of you know percentages and things is there anything that we would legally be able to do to prevent that from I I don't think me from buying a piece of property and just basically turning into a two or three family like is there anything potentially do if that bill comes to fruition and again I I I do think that's a a I don't want to say it's a big if but I I you know I don't it's not a slam dunk at this point but if if it were to come to fruition I think you could come up with some guide rails that you know maybe uh help mitigate some of the impact meaning that you couldn't have it everywhere you'd have to meet certain conditions and maybe it pertains to lot size maybe it pertains to um again a parking requirements setbacks but at the end of the day he still wouldn't be able to outright prohibit them and you have to you know sort of create a path or an opportunity that most properties could have that you know allowed so it's tax the hell out of dwellings that are accessory structures it's the hell worth yeah right I can add to to that in the text of the bill as we're looking at it right now it does include a provision that says Municipal zoning ordinance may require a principal dwelling unit with an accessory dwelling unit should be subject to the same dimensional controls and other controls except for residential density as required for the same principal dwelling unit so that means all of our bulk variance requirements could be could remain even if it had an accessory accessory structure so we could by limiting our improved lot coverage requirements C building coverage requirements that can also help limit the impact of this bill if it actually became law yeah it's not going to help the parking isue that's for sure right there are lots of you could think of you know school kids barking I mean you know you solve one problem you create perhap it depends it really is context specific but again from from the state it it's this blanket thing of all municipalities shall adhere to this requirement in all zones all situations so when you do that you know it you're going to run into some issues is is our opinion but that's what's out there so Tom yes Tom Tom bar I'm yeah I'm here yeah let's just talk about the timing of this you seem to say that that that it's in the legislature now it'll be tweaked one way or the other but it sounds like something will be approved um th this calendar year if not before well okay there's two bills one is the accessory dwelling unit bill which I I don't know any time frame with regard to that I I think there's still some questions of of whether or not that will actually Prevail but in in my opinion what will almost definitely happen in this year is the the broader new uh we'll call it affordable housing program which is expected to pass either within the next week or within the next several months at the latest and once that happens the the shot clock will start um the gum will go off and municipalities will have to follow pretty strict timeline which basically starts with um you come up with your affordable housing need number you come up with a plan and you get that plan certified more or less and you know within at 12 to 18 months generally depending on what the ultimate time frame is going to be I I think some some of the push is to look for more realistic program just because of you know expecting municipalities to deal with you know we work in some towns where they've had 12 or 15 developers that they've had to negotiate with and to try to negotiate with them in in a month's period is just unrealistic um so you have issues like that so it's uh you know in some respects they just don't care either the way the Bill's written and some would say well this is the way it's going to be and deal with it and that that's you know those are some opinions that are out there so ultimately I would expect this board and this town to have to come up with a new fourth round housing plan you know generally by the expiration of the third round which again is July 225 it could be a little sooner it could be a little later depending on when the bill is actually uh adopted so you talking one year approxim approximately not right not not a ton of time so again it would it I think it behooves municipalities to at least start thinking about it and and getting you know in some cases subcommittees together to start looking at you know have we achieved the things we said we were going to achieve in the third round because we have a court certified plan that said we were going to do certain things to my knowledge we've done you know pretty good job in in doing you know all the overlay zones we had to do the you know I think a bunch of you were on the board at that time um and again making sure that we fulfill the obligations we said we were going to do uh and also looking forward to say okay we know we're going to have some number of affordable units that will have to satisfy what other mechanisms or locations you know or ideas should we start thinking about to come up with a way to satisfy you know X number of of unit yeah move to Vermont okay one option do we have properties that can be developed other than the ones along um river river uh draw hack Avenue there well the current plan includes two Redevelopment plans one is um the current Le grow site and one is the new bridg Landing train station there's also an overlay Zone over uh the I guess it's the Golf Center used to be the batting cages by B that's the one I was thinking of those our three main sites we have there's I think seven affordable units on that uh in the new new er uh multif family building on Kinder KAC that's uh sort of by the reservoir between how and a reservoir yep um and there's a couple other units scattered I think St Peter's senior housing counts for a few so we've we've got enough I think to carry us through this round but one of the the newer Provisions is that used to be able to reduce your your broader number and every town was assigned to a ridiculous you know to the tune of hundreds of units I forget River Edge's exact obligation but it was like 335 units something ridiculous that you could never conceivably achieved U but you still would have to address it but the the previous program or regulations would allow you to conduct what's called a vacant land adjustment so you could basically say well you know our Town's fully developed we have nowhere to go and therefore our number should be reduced and in our case we were able to reduce that to zero essentially it doesn't do away with that whole giant overall arking number they still say you know you're supposed to make an attempt to address that so it never really goes away but in this new set of rules basically they're saying that okay even if you're a fully developed town and you're num you know you've done the vacant land assessment and you come up with a number of zero we don't care you still have to come up with 25% of this overall ridiculous number that we're going to give you probably in the hundreds of units that you have to come up so they're going to force towns to look at areas uh essentially to redevelop that they might not have otherwise thought of that's the way the bill is currently written um and it sounds like there that hasn't moved much that provision so again this is this is a new aspect where you could have just stopped and said we're good we're at zero we're fully developed now they're saying well you've got to go beyond that and make something happen I mean that's more or less what they're getting so one more committee to be formed and and and on that point we'll have we'll have an email out shortly with uh we're re reconfiguring our committees uh our subcommittees so uh we'll have an email out to the uh the board shortly with uh some committee assignments and if anybody is is interested potentially in serving on on this particular board feel free to uh drop an email to uh to me um sorry to cut you off Tom no that was I'm I'm good okay um I see we're we're past our curfew so um one other item Mr chairman yes okay um um Tom with Ed alter submitted their annual report must we vot do must we vote to accept it or just do we need a formal acceptance I we will need a we we do typically adopt um a resolution to accept the annual report um I can prepare a resolution for the next meeting and we can adopt approve it and adopt it or memorialize it at the same meeting why don't we yeah let's put it on the agenda for the next meeting then thank you because I'll be chairing it you'll be off fishing I might I might be otherwise occupied sorry to say um and just one of the points before we close there was an email out late this evening from Ed um with a uh a new topic that'll again be on a later uh later agenda so take a look at that there's a proposed ordinance that uh is being considered so uh take a look at your email for that and that will appear as an agenda item on a on a future meeting stay tuned on that um if nothing further I will look um for motion to close the meeting think I got a first Mr feffer and a second Miss B all in favor hi POS stain all right we stand adjourned at 10:09 p.m. thanks everyone for hanging in tonight thank you thank you everyone good night good night everyone night good night