I thought thought I was ready just buried my statement meeting of the Somerville planning board for July 10th 2024 will please come to order adequate notice of this meeting as required by the open public public meeting act has been provided copy of a notice specifying the date time and location was one posted on a bullet board outside B Hall two mail facts or emailed to The Courier News and three given to the cork administrator this meeting is a Judicial proceeding any questions or comments must be limited to the issues that the board May legally consider en reaching a decision and the decorum appropriate to a Judicial proceeding must be maintained at all times okay um roll call chairman Nado here M rosinski mayor Gallagher here councilman vroom here mrir here M Warner here Mr crasa here Mr crusties Mr Cleveland here Mr addex here Mr aen okay Pledge of Allegiance I Ali to the flag the United States of America and to the rep for one na indivisible andice for okay we have the minutes for June 26 so moved second any additions or Corrections okay chairman nado yes mayor Gallagher yes councilman vroom abstain missir abstain Miss Warner abstain Mr Presa yes Mr Cleveland yes Mr addex yes okay next up we have a resolution for 24 Division Street so move second um any questions yeah did they change that so huh I don't know yeah wasn't really wasn't a change I had offered because they wanted to get it very quickly at were cou ches there okay okay councilman V yes Mr D um yes but on page three of the resolution it says the um number five it says the review letter from Cole dated October 4th 2024 October's not here yet yeah3 be 2023 okay good catch yes Miss Warner yes Mr Cleveland yes Mr addex yes okay with that change okay and the next thing we have to do is talk about um fencing on Corner lots and I have been discussing this with the mayor for a while since we both live on Corner lots and our lots are distinctly different um my approach to this is I would like to have a more simple set of rules that's easier to interpret but also easier to modify in a situation where it needs to be modified so I I agree I mean the everything we have is great for one property but it helps this property but hinders this one because everyone's different so well I I think I don't think the the on Mike's first page would it be would it I'm sorry would it make sense to have Mike just kind of outline the four approaches first sure so it's just for the public stake that you know they understand what we're kind of discussing yeah I know I want to make sure we also don't talk about any particular property I mean we talk about Corner Lots but yes you know other than that this is just a very general conversation the first thing I did as I said the the this was applicable for on the corner Lots the side micone mik I'm sorry sorry this is applicable to the sides of the property that the property is not facing not the mailing address the mailing address is the front that has to comply with everyone else's front yard setback requirements for fencing this is the side that the house doesn't fence okay it's number one so I I listened to what the board had to say in the last meeting and I came up you have four options here and this concept one is the Chairman's idea is just reduce saying you don't have to comply for 30% 20% of the 4 foot setback on that side we just talked about in the front yard but have a setback because I've heard from numerous people that no one wants a fence up against the sidewalk 2 feet off it doesn't feel comfortable walking at dog dog walking your kids and so forth so if you see an option one it's just a three- foot setback from the sidewalk or the property line to give that space so I just threw up a foot to allow a foot higher and 30% but that's just all Concepts the option two is to graduate the fence allowing a taller fence the further back from that property line you go so you're not going to be 3 feet you might be 10 feet away and allowing more solid fence and a higher fence as you graduate back the the third option is right now you can't put a solid fence at all so a combination Fen is allow a solid fence for a lower two or three feet like a lattice or something so allow a mixed fence and some solid in the front yard setback so you do have some solid there not four or five feet of solid but some solid and then the fourth is really the mayor's idea is to make it a a conditional use and then we could have a committee set up to review these and then the committee would make a recommendation to the planning board if the planning board felt or the committee felt it complied and it was reasonable and I I I said both the zoning the zoning officer could do that or the board to the planning board if it's going to be Aesthetics or something subjective I don't think the zoning officer should get involved in that because it's nothing but a nightmare it should be a committee reviewing it if it's anything subjective like Aesthetics if it matches this character or something where I think think a committee should look at it similar to what the ARB does and then right like this is going back when the board used to look at the the wall signs in the Sid and for cafes it used to be the ARB made recommendations the planning Board review it that's changed to three years ago but this is going back to that same model that a committee would review whatever they're proposing on the corner lots and if the committee felt it complied with whatever those standards were it would make a recomend recommendation to the planning board for review and approval if the committee felt it did not comply then it would be kicked to the zoning board because that it's a conditional use and would not comply with condition conditional use and that's a zoning board action and the only thing I would say on that is we'd have to make sure the conditions are very precise because if someone other than a board's going to be reviewing them to make that determination compliance or non-compliance we don't want anything subjective so we'd have to just pick and choose then of course whichever board reviewed it could discuss other issues but for that initial review to determine compliance or not you know is it less than six feet is it half solid half not you know whatever it is just definitely not subjective related to number four here um do we have any idea or anticipation what the volume per month or year that would be coming through that board or that committee I don't think it's a lot um I could tell you from the zoning board perspective those zoning boards only reviewed maybe three in 20 years they just don't come in front of the board they did come two years ago because it's expensive to go expensive but the only two years ago one came up and the own the proper nearby Property Owners had a strong objections to having a six foot fence right on the sidewalk the same things that I think we could all relate to and the application with withdrew so I haven't seen a lot of fence applications from the from the zoning board maybe three in 19 years uh I'm at there are Corner Lots fence permits are ISS issued I would say monthly uh but the the question is and this goes back and you know the board could not like any of these ideas but there's not one size fits all every corner lot is different so we come up with anything it's not going to help every situation and that's why I'm leaning towards the conditional use which back not the zoning officer back to a committee to make a recommendation because that committee can factor in and you're dealing with many people but it's not clean is it have to be a lot of teeth put in that to make it clear what it is because if if we were going to make that recommendation I first of all I would increase the height of the the fence I like in the in your first page um I like the 25 changing the 50 Foot set back right 25 ft I don't think we need 50 fet and I would I would increase the height of the fence to 48 Ines because then then you're going to eliminate a lot of conditional use applications so you can go 48 Ines up to 25 ft from a front yard property line which gives adequate sight distance for people coming up on the corner and is is going to eliminate the conditional use applications if you want to have an 8 foot fence within that 25 ft that would be the conditional use is there a is there a cost if they were to go to the AR for an ARB review I you're bringing up a great point because right now people who live on a corner lot are penalized for living on a corner lotre when they want to put a fence in so if somebody goes to put in offence what is it $25 zoning yes review correct that should be the the maximum that anybody on a corner lot should pay for a review of a fence I don't want to increase cost for them I just want to keep it maintaining and then it's just an extra step that's all okay they don't applicants don't pay to go to the ARB do they no I didn't think so no now you do the zoning board application zoning officer and chairman can chime in because he's part of the ARB reviews I don't think there's an additional fee is there Jenna there used oh there is oh there used to be Jenna is shaking her head yes yeah it's not it's not a lot yeah yeah and there shouldn't be it should be equal the property owner should pay equal amount I mean I I guess inside the Sid is one thing but for residents I don't think there should be anything y agree agreed so I my problem is that extra layer of bureaucracy in order to get something done so by increasing the height of the fence and decreasing the setback I think we're going to eliminate a lot of the applications that that are going to need to go to whatever committee is set up to review it the challenge behind that is almost every corner lot is different and whether it's in the R1 R2 um they're very different and we can use ours as examples I already have a fence in that's been there for 25 years so I'm not looking to get a fence may yours is soet tall no um and not on the corner oh no but but here here's the problem problem you have people putting in fences for different reasons some put them in for Aesthetics some put them in for privacy if under this scenario at four feet you don't you still don't have any privacy so it it becomes a problem and it becomes a problem because my lot is is a 50 by 150 well my house sits along the address side is along the 150 side I don't have a I have a backyard that's probably 36 in to my neighbor's property lot so you've got and you've got a dichotomy because you you have a a a differen Siz lot right and your your lot is proportioned differently this is the problem that almost every corner lot is proportioned a little bit differently and these one size fits all are creating Havoc for the resident can't we do both though can't we yes and I think we can create a a logical standard yeah in the zoning but then allow for you know what Bernie's saying but then also you still have you still have another option if you're outside of that still yeah you still go to theb right and if if you want that's what the if it becomes um a non-conforming use because you want a taller fence for privacy within the area that you're not allowed to have that toall fence then then you go to the committee yeah calulate sometimes and if if you want to put up a 4 foot fence a 4ot picket fence within within 25 ft of your your front yard line should be able to do that without having to jump through hoops um and is is this still keeping the triangle for the line of sight are we changing that it's yeah if you look at the last page it's I'm not it's not a sight triangle because it's much longer for a sight I call it a sight safety I want to clarify in the ordinance that it's not a sight triangle uh and that 30 inch comes from the Astro standard which is you can see over in the car and what the chairman is saying is Well if it's not a sight triangle can we make it higher is what he's basically saying as long as it's outside of yeah I don't want to obstruct I I don't want somebody to be able to put a 4 foot fence in that's in an obstruct view pulling up to a corner either right if you have a stop sign mhm the site triangle is going to be at the Stop Bar okay that's where the sight triangles are or for Signal eyes wherever you stop that's the sight triangle that's what I'm saying in this are we changing that that says you could put a 4 foot into that area no okay that's I just wanted to no it's 25 feet if if if you're driving a vehicle almost any vehicle will within 25 feet hit the site triangle that you need yeah I we can say some language to help the chairman saying you got to be under 30 inches at the stop bar on your property something so you're looking to marry the two you're looking to set set a a standard that can go through easy for some yeah right and then for those anomaly properties Corner properties they have an Avenue that doesn't cost them anything right may it may delay them a week or two well maybe a month yeah yeah um because it's you know they've got to go through two through if you want body if you wanted to put up an 8 foot fence under the existing zoning you would not be allowed to do it right yeah if I wanted to put up an 8 foot fence under the existing zoning I couldn't do it right along the sidewalk right even though I would if I put it from the back of my house to my driveo it wouldn't obstruct anything correct but I couldn't do it right and you would have to go through the zoning I like the Dual thing where we you know I have no problem with the forefoot and changing it and then giving them the Avenue of a committee to go yeah for anything else and if the committee doesn't think it's appropriate then it gets kicked back and then they have to go through and then then the the issue becomes comes who makes up the committee that was going to be my question I think we can figure that out it it that let's have let's have a look at something let might craft something and and then we can figure out where that is made up from yeah from what I hearing the boards lean towards the conditional use the conditions being x y and z um I if the board wants to have input on this it has to be a conditional use otherwise it's not here yep has to be it's the only way I can get the single families in front of this board so I would have to I have to stop right here this is the first this is the first time I've done planning here on this board for like four or five years it feels great to have these discussions about being clever or coming up with solutions for everyone but we go back to a conditional use and then we can I'm much more comfortable having more subjective ideas of a committee and the board is looking at it as opposed to an individual who's going to get into a shouting MCH owner what that exactly means well it can become too subjective with one person right yes correct um I I think you know it could be the ARB right uh it's an existing body already that's comprised from this board we would have to specify that in an ordinance yeah absolutely so the only thought process I have with the ARB is is the ARB doesn't that have DSA members and do they really have a concept of an understanding for residential and what's their purpose how were they created that they have a specific purpose well although under under other applications we've had we've sent folks to the ARB outside of the any plan waiver committee but this is in the site plan the idea is a certain body it could it could be the the advantage to having theb do it is that there is somebody from the Board of adjustments somebody from the planning board and somebody from the DSA now the DSA doesn't necessarily apply to Residential Properties however it's it's a a variety of perspectives unless the DSA representative is also one of the residential representative that's what I was thinking of the board pulling somebody like it's almost like an like an alternative for the it's the ARB but it's I don't know ARB version two where it's more geared towards the perspective of a residential versus of a of a business yeah I think and I agree with Brian we can Define this better at the next meeting but I think we need to better Define who's going to make up this committee well maybe that brings us back to making sure the ARB kind of goes back to it was it could be you know it well either the ARB or to make up a committee what's in the pocket right now site plan waiver committee or the ARB that's the only two committees I don't think any of us are opposed to keeping with a committee that already exists I think it's just find just tweaking that one piece of it y why why make another committee that right yeah well the the way it currently stands the DSA representative is Rick St Pierre who is a resident would act as a resident in that in that Avenue so under under the current makeup of the ARB everybody would qualify everybody's a residential yeah everybody on the ARB is a resident so just in in different places in the town yeah well that's what you want yeah I have no issue let's get that drafted yeah yep I agree it could work yeah so come up with some tiar on the conditional use this is acceptable if it's not this then these are standards that the committee is going to look and the committee likes that or agrees with it makes a recommendation the planning board would then look at one of the things I would suggest Mike is is actually going out and when you do this ey balling a couple of corner pieces of property those real those Oddball Pieces Just so you can it's not just textbook it's also practical and take a look at it and say how would this work yeah if board is okay we like to get car involved but make sure you're good with it in terms of the language definitely look at it absolutely um so my understanding is the planning board doesn't have jurisdiction over res idial properties well it does unconditional uses that's the cleverness here is okay um and that's why this is a little unorthodox we can make it work the conditional use Clear Lees the planning board yeah if it doesn't comply it goes to the board of adjustment and that's how if the planning board would like that do this they can do that with a conditional use as long as the committee and the board when you review it feels that it complies then the board would have jurisdiction even though Mr chairman that it's a it's a single family or a two family yeah and that's that's my goal is to make it a little simpler easy and cheap it would be it wouldn't be any of my time or Cara's time it would go to a Sim it would be the same way it was when the planning board used to approve the signs that airb reviewed it would be going back to that model again that worked for how many years a lot of years a lot of years and the the the trick would be coming up with language that everybody likes on the on the kick okay this is done the zoning officer can approve it nope no nothing if you don't meet this then these are the standards and the committee there's a path right a path there's a path that doesn't penalize right under the same as Lisa brought up under the same $25 yes so you're coming for a zoning permit if well that's yeah that's the one of the keys is that a trip trip to the zoning board costs a lot of money right so for $25 hour you coming for a zoning if it didn't meet let say a under conditional use then you go to B right for the same $25 that committee would review B for those standards and if the committee felt those standards were met would Rec a recommendation to the planning board for for review and stamp and that would anybody's touch on that the $25 we need we need language in there that specifies that the fees aren't going to increase right yeah because it's it's very easy for somebody to increase the fees without anybody's approval really I mean that the Borough Council has to do it but you know it it happens easily yeah same same fee structure that's you just referenced the the same zoning permit fee structure that's right can the applicant I do just make a hand drawing of looking at they don't have to have take a rer and it say this is what it's going to come yeah I would prefer something other than than a freehand sketch but photo property I meanin reason yeah don't have to nothing professional I think is where Larry is going I don't think anything professional so here and here's what we we should do as as a burrow is and we have enough lean on we we should create a short sheet application form that details what's acceptable give us a photo of the property give us a a cut sheet of the fencing that you want to do give us a draw however you want to do it yeah you know it's customer service we're here to serve them they're not here to you know this is It's customer service oh I agree I just want to make sure yeah I agree with you we need we need to let folks know that you know they don't have to get an engineer they don't have to create architectural renderings the devils in the exactly and I I feel like most fencing companies will probably do that for yes with the proposal y they'll give you the sketches and everything else so so I'm sorry Mike and I were talking about something else that I want to bring up but where do we land on that yes a sketch no a sketch can they do it themselves absolutely yeah no professionals needed no professional drawings needed but not needed right now and we can create something out of the the uh the office that says here's here's what we'd like to see uh as a part of this so we just have to be able to understand what they're trying to do yeah that's the goal absolutely pictures whatever the case may be send us send us a photo of the fence you want to put up exactly exactly and I you know that's easy to get now with the internet and people buying stuff like that on the internet right and when you get a quote from a fencing company yeah they send it to you they'll give you all that as well easy enough to get um include a picture of the proper property where and and where you want to put the fence Google Maps yeah um something else not that I want to get too In The Weeds on this because I really don't think it's going to end up being an issue especially if we keep the ARB as the controlling reviewer but I think we have to include an appeal mechanism just in case so if the property owner so ARB says you don't comply property owner says yes we do we should be going to the planning board who's the appeal mechanism do we treat it as an appeal of a zoning officer's determination to the zoning board what do we do my my thinking would be the ARB would make the recommendation to the planning board the planning board would give the blessing or not um ultimately and uh and then the appeal body could be the councel um if somebody wants to appeal something we do now it goes to council right yes well the problem is the condition use if to say the committee said I don't think this complies the standards which means it wouldn't go to the planning board they would be directed The committee's making a recommendation ARB right so they could the zoning board be the appeal body Well normally it is but what I'm saying is they appealing the a orb the appeal would be the planning board saying it complies they would argue that it does comply and the planning board make a decision the planning board says it complies then it can conforms the condition because the ARB is only a recommending board the appeal for the board ARB would be to the planning board and the planning board said this doesn't comply then they have to go to the board of adjustment yeah okay so you would have you would have one appeal to this body to see if this body feels it complies with the conditions of the of the offense and if this board agrees with the ARB that doesn't comply their zoning board if they don't agree they evaluate the conditions same $25 make the appr over and done then you're appealed to the zoning board but the planning board tried to make it work yeah the whole body did a orb tried to make it work and then the same $25 is the Zoning Board review we'd have to change the fee schedule for that because the appeal would be higher right now the appeal I think is a $500 application I'm just I know we have to change that if if you want to make $25 go for the appeal we'd have to change the fee schedule for that okay yeah which which I'm fine with we should take a look at anyway yeah okay great good discussion don't take that all right um I have no further comments at this point I'll open the meeting up to the public seeing no public other than Colin we'll close the public session and I will entertain a motion to adur so move second all those in favor I all those opposed