##VIDEO ID:8du2aOSo3yM## this government meeting is brought to you by eastw works and our local cable subscribers um so it is a joint boards meeting of the planning board Mr chairman would you like to open the planning board [Music] good evening everyone those in listening land out in Spectrum TV um here to formally open tonight's uh planning board meeting it's a joint meeting um with the select board and the housing authority and I have four members present from planning Steven Johnson Dan lavali Mark darnold and myself Paul demon and at this time I'm officially Opening Our section of the meeting and I would ask that the housing authority and select board uh follow suit come to oh and it's listening to me it looked at me okay um is this thing on um so I would like to uh officially open the Housing Authority meeting we just had one which we closed and now we're back open um I'm Sierra Simmons I'm the here I'm also here with Janet Kane and uh our friend Dan La valy over there on the planning board who's also on the Housing Authority um so Housing Authority meeting has been opened all right Chris FS chairman of the select board calling to order the select board meeting uh as well and we have uh a quorum with Steven Johnson Dan Lali sitting on the planning board side as well uh Cindy pommer remoting in and uh myself and John lumber should be coming so we have a quorum as well great thanks Paul thank you um Paul Paul would you like to um welcome folks and say a few words about the purpose today's meeting I'd like to welcome Ken comia and Kyle fennel both from uh pioner Valley planning uh commission who are here tonight to assist in the presentation with the 40R district and uh thank you for allowing time in your schedule to be here and uh I welcome all those from the public that may be here and our Town Administrator Scott Seck great do you want to add anything Madam chair um no just uh glad that we were able to all get together I think this is a topic that's come up uh somewhat in the past uh and I'm looking forward to learning a whole lot more about it I know both Sierra and uh Paul FAL from the planning board had brought it to the attention of the master plan committee when we last met and we spent some time talking about it uh in terms of having a 40-hour overlay district and what that meant uh and so um I don't have the history about what happened in the past I believe this has come before the town or at least the planning board sometime in the past so looking forward to learning about that and also glad to reconnect with uh Ken Kya in particular who uh was very instrumental about four years ago I think he just about lived in Southampton uh he helped us with the Master Plan update uh I believe he was also involved in the open space and Recreation Plan update and the housing plan housing production plan so if there's anybody from Pioneer Valley Planning Commission that kind of knows the ins and outs of Southampton uh Ken's a pretty good resource so uh welcome back Ken I think it's been a while since we've seen you back here so we're looking forward to whatever information you may share uh about this topic for us and uh I'll leave it at that but uh again to and we'll do brief introductions around the room some of us have been introduced three times yeah so yeah and maybe you guys need just either take this or stand at the mic one of the other proba EAS be at the mic uh good evening boards um Ken come a deputy director of land use and environment at the pioner valley Planning Commission it's great to be back in Southampton um I was on my drive here living in eastampton um I was trying to remember the time that I spent in Southampton over the past four years uh which was specific to um doing a lot of the planning processes during Co um particularly and uh having a brief conversation with Stephen through email and um and then Paul through email and then the town uh administrator through email um it got me excited about the possibilities of this particular AC position that you've um gotten um but with that said um we're obviously here to um discuss with you and maybe reconnect some of the the information that we tried to dig up based on some of the work that we've done in the past 10 plus years which both Kyle and I have not you know we not at pvpc at the time so we're trying to fill in the blank so getting to hear from folks out here will be helpful um but yeah looking forward to the conversation K good evening boards thank you very much I'm Kyle Fel from Pioneer Valley Planning Commission senior planner in land use and environment I'm actually currently supporting uh the town of Southampton working with the planning board and your uh planning consultant Richard Harris uh revising the water supply protection uh District bylaw so I'm been getting familiar with the town and uh I'm also supporting other uh community in the pioner valley as they investigate and explore the topic of 40R uh in their respective communities so I've been uh learning a lot about this particular program and I'm excited to uh answer some questions and hopefully um Inspire some action from the boards thank you very much for having me tonight great Ryan do you want to continue the around Robin I'm just here as not on zoning board for for everyone's benefit maybe everyone knows you okay Janet why don't you continue around introduce myself okay okay uh we can dispense with introductions um I see we want to get down to business um this is learning meeting and I am not an expert I am however insistent that the information be brought forward in a thorough and factual way so that's my role is uh to be the what the uh facilitator bug in the saddle something the bur in the saddle that's what it is um at best a facilitator so um expectations concerns questions uh Chris made brief reference to the fact that not only have we invested Community Resources and public engagement in creating an updating a master plan and a housing production plan open space open space plan Greenway plan um so this is perhaps building on all of that plus an earlier effort uh looking at 40R and since I'm new to town and new to this role I would invite Sierra or someone who remembers that prior experience Paul to um just give us a Anchor Point for what we do and don't know about 40R and why it didn't move forward last time and if anybody wants to just wander around and write other questions or concerns on the chalkboard we'll collect those this is meant to be worksh shoy and I'm really pissed that we have it set up as board and audience that's not appropriate certainly with me on this side Paul others who who remembers Paul was here so no Paul was almost here no I was here during that last study and it was in 2011 uh when it was done and the report was filed by by pvpc um in 2012 and that was from a dlta grant that we received that year um to uh investigate 40R the packet that I passed out uh hopefully you have one it had a chart there was a 166 page report which I I was not going to distribute to everyone the board has a copy via email the Town Administrator does and I asked him if he he would like to share it with the elect board at some point I did send it to Sierra it's quite a lengthy report but the chart that I had which was a single sheet um was the culmination of what they found out in terms of statistics um in their study now the 40R and uh I'm going to depend on Ken and Kyle for their expertise going forward um to probably correct me on some of my um comments here but as I recall um the main focus of that was mixed use um with a heavy um emphasis on uh residential in either two or three story buildings um in in the area of uh Red Rock shops uh because the proximity to eastampton sewer was the key to it all and with the um shopping center there now an urgent care center years later um a pharmacy and other amenities that section of town was earmarked um um as a place where 40R and the residents that lived there would have access to it walking and not necessarily needed vehicles to do so um the the study also encompassed sidewalks that would be necessary um from the um Red Rock Plaza area down uh the district encompassed just before the manhan river uh as you're heading South I believe um and again uh design standards uh would have to had to been adopted by the board going forward um but again the the main focus and I believe that's what's going to be um probably Paramount this discussion tonight is the um the availability of sewer now I don't know for sure why it didn't go forward the report um obviously um this board um and I take some responsibility for it because I was on the board at the time that uh why it didn't U proceed further um but there were no engagement uh to my knowledge with these stand at the time about any um access to sewer so um it it was it was it died obviously and um one of the main reasons um the Midtown area there were three areas originally looked at in that study the Village Center here Midtown which is across now from the um the Brie property that's uh in the focus tonight and then uh the East Hampton line um the when they looked at all three areas and again I'm sounding like a broken record because of sewer um the pbbc did not decide to um study any of these other two areas because of the distance and the costs associated with the uh infrastructure coming this way so that's all I can tell you uh about what I know and what I remember but the the report is quite comprehensive if um anyone would like a copy of it I can certainly email you it um it's it's pretty extensive and pvpc did a great job on it and um hopefully um maybe that that plan could be resurrected and um brought up to date um if the U the boards or the community so desires um but it's there and uh you did a fine job with it that's all I can offer you anything further yeah I think I just wanted to add briefly I think um in dusting it off because it literally was trying to find it within many folders um of work um you know as Kyle mentioned he's focusing a lot of his efforts on some of the projects that he's doing with other communities on 4dr so maybe leave some of the specifics to him but I think with regards to any planning process um Paul is correct in that you know your master plan has identified those three particular areas where presumably you could have you know looked at smart growth 40R um with that said I also think um based on I I pulled up the application form um which was prepared by someone named John Ferman we may have initially talked um with that person back then um this the the email address here is VHB so it was probably more of an engineering firm that may have helped pvpc with some of the regulatory things what uh whatnot um and the analysis um as Paul shared with you it's that type of analysis that the executive office of housing livable communities will require for an application um um the application is quite extensive and often times there um I saw that um stepen had emailed Bill raal he will be your best friend um as you pursue 4r if that's something that you want to do um because he's with the executive office of Housing and livable communities correct just roll off your tongue yeah we're going to see Bill's slid show next yes um and he does this his Spiel all over the Commonwealth um with that said uh yeah I think looking at the Gateway smart growth District as Paul was mentioning it seemed like the easiest lift based on the fact that the infrastructure was there but I think the context is very important if there was no engagement with the city of East Hampton at the time then it's likely then you know there was no momentum to really get anywhere with the application um but yeah I I think um you know for the purposes of providing some context for the boards uh this is a a tried and true process if the smart growth district is something that um seems appropriate for maybe this new newly acquired parcel that probably makes sense I think as Paul was mentioning the um the availability of infrastructure the water and sewer that's going to be probably of most importance to the town people with regards to the support for that um but uh I will say that also there are conversations that a lot of communities more rural communities that may be looking at 4dr have been navigating uh septic um I'm not saying that that is something that the town you know would want to do especially if it intends to maybe you utilize this particular area for more commercial growth um and mixed uses and you you'd probably want that capacity there um but I also understand that the town also has been you know doing its due diligence with its infrastructure study the sewer study um and it I think it could that would be helpful to to kind of understand so will Circle back to that it's worth saying yes sewer is being specifically explored we have contract tie and bond uh to look at the feasibility of connecting to eastampton um up as far as gun Road and that would serveice um about we're going to cycle back to that a a region bigger than this parcel but we'll cycle back to that so we're looking at what would that look like to go forward in concert with the greenway development and also provide um the kind of sanitary services we need as this business district sits today as it's redeveloped and certainly as we look forward with goals hopes for the new acquisition so um we'll do questions uh as soon as com I think um way back when there were many of these studies done sewer studies I think done along Route 10 itself that proved to be extremely costly I know there are consultant firms that have done more than one St we've got volum of paper upstairs of reports of this that you know just I don't know whether some of that the results of those were also um discouraging shall we say from the cost point of view uh such that that also maybe was a factor that nothing ever really went forward all I'm not sure but I know there had been a lot of work done at one point in time looking at sewer feasibility along Route 10 which you know kind of stalled um many years ago we we'll Circle Back to the Sewer question interesting too with with Kyle just understand I mean this study with 40R obviously it's been around for a long time but just understanding the history of it a little bit and what may have changed in regulation or you know key things that may have changed that make it more um palatable or more uh viable maybe for a town like Southampton over the last 10 or 12 years because you know I'm sure something is changed that makes it maybe a matter of timing where maybe before we were you know too early for what we really knew we needed and now maybe maybe something will coincide so I think as we discussed tonight it would could hear that that perspective for you guys indeed and and we're going to talk about the sewer in detail in a minute um here's what I'm trying to find Bill's slideshow Ken you've probably seen this more than I have I think uh Kyle is coming up in that number um but both of us have seen that bill has given these presentations multiple times um right so let me see about getting my screen a little bit larger this is not optimal I know it's an unsecured Network come on is it supposed to be up on there uhoh it's getting there I to do that via kicked me out well Steven pulls that up let me just say anybody that's speaking who's not at a mic at the up front might want to go to the podium it's hard to hear you otherwise okay now it's on thanks Cindy sorry about that uh while I we have a second I um missed one introduction uh we also have uh Ann Bowman here she's a member of the public but she's also like about to be on the Housing Authority she just did the application we voted to approve and she going to the select board so an thanks for being here yeah it's well if you don't mind while you're uh waiting for the presentation on that sheet I gave with the statistics on it it wasn't uh totaled but I just did some quick math on it tonight for the uh possible available uh residential units for a twostory or three-story building which was interesting um I had no idea that um it created that many numbers but the minimum amount in a two-story building for that area that was uh under the study was 338 units and the maximum was 371 and if you put a three-story building um in in that area um and that's that scenario I believe Canen and Kyle is if two or three story buildings were built the length of either side of the roadway in that area correct not just one three-story building it it would be several two and three story buildings throughout that District right to create that kind of number had it up a minute ago I I would think the presumption is based that I think that that calculation is probably based on the developable land and if you were to use all three story products whatever that looked like and the requirements for the underlying zoning more than likely yes it that would be the case and then the number goes up significantly if you're looking at a three-story building of 428 minimum units and a maximum of 561 so those are those are pretty big uh numbers for residential units that could be adopted just in that just in that stretch of Route 10 on both sides from from Red Rock down to Connected manhan but Paul doesn't doesn't our aquafer have limitations though for the number of housing units that can be placed in a certain number of Acres or I would I would have expected in that study that uh that would taken into consideration correct I mean we don't need that answered tonight but that would have been my assumption anyway that that would have had to been taken into consideration the developable land um you know subtracting any Wetlands um and any other of the environmentally um sensitive areas right that's what you would Bas your calculation on so um this is a good time for you to sh and Ryan um earlier studies of the property um published a set of development plans we have the existing conditions sheet here can you D that for me um and mentioned by the prior proponent on the existing conditions sheet is information about the soils and they're characterize as excessively well drained it also cites the D nitrogen loading limit ostensibly for Onsite septic at four bedrooms per acre okay that's D's Title 5 um system oh my goodness and yet what I understand from our health agent is that in the of excessively well- drained one bedroom two bedrooms per acre so these are unusually well- drained soils that dump effluent rapidly with little treatment so the D Title 5 regulation requires lower density development and that's entirely independent of whatever zoning we have in place so it gets to the point that um the property is nice and level it's going to be easy to move dirt around but it's going to be a very big challenge to deal with septic on site um I don't know how far the public safety building took it in terms of specific design or if they just spit balled it for the feasibility study um but we need to figure out a better way to deal with the flin I don't know whether package treatment plants these days offer anything I know that the town has had presentation uh from pvpc and or maybe with some consultants in not too dist class we're looking at T and I remember what I wanted to say Madam chair that all cart each one of these Capital Improvements looks staggering it's hugely expensive wrap them together in a logical sequence and use all of our political clout to seek state and federal grants because they're starting to work in Synergy we'll come back around to that after we look at the slideshow that I promis I still don't know how big I'm going to make it but this is where I got in trouble before single page all right it's not going to do that okay and then we go back to the beginning instead of the end so welcome folks here we are um it's chapter 40R in the Mass general laws and then there are a bunch of implementing regulations um starter homes that's a smart growth uh piece starter Zone Zone starter home zoning apparently is a different chapter in Mass general laws and of course they each have their own acronyms so we'll step through this quickly so we can get to questions and answers so this is a voluntary program to encourage uh the adoption and implementation of zoning that allows Compact and mixed use development by right you give up the multi-step permitting and have in effect uh special permit where areas that have existing commercial uh development they say existing and planned infrastructure and access to retail services and jobs so a business district is an example how uh Financial incentives and a tool to better manage residential growth by directing it where you want to have it build it at scale and use that as an incentive to draw public investment in the infrastructure you need can just put your mic a little bit closer to you oh it's she can I'm sorry uh Basics an overview the requirements you have to first qualify the location in town we heard about that and looking at three different areas Red Rocks in the earlier times this was the village Village Center and the area that we're talking about in particular tonight was called Midtown is that right it's all happening in Midtown eligible location densities by right are huge single family up to eight units uh as a minimum for if it's the U starter home scenario 2 to three family the density increases multif family 20 units per acre so you're really talking about apartment houses and it has to be I think a lot of this is really at 20% affordability 10% is the asterisk for the starter home and the piece that gets all the communities interested and damn it I wish we had Richard Harris to do his shiel again because he was a town planner in South Hadley ushered them through 40 are and was quite high on the income that that provided to the town There's a little bit more oh it is right here uh when you get your District qualified before anything gets built depending on how many potential units are well you get a zoning incentive when you pass the zoning and it's scaled I don't know where we would fall but it also depends on the size of the District which we'll look at in a minute one concept it's what we're looking at for sewering um and then as the units get built you get a kicker of $3,000 per unit and if you incur School costs and there's a way complicated formula for that you also get um a contribution from the state in consideration of the new growth in the school system uh eligible location Transit oriented development we have no Transit we can reserve a space um but we'll promote the greenway as an alternative form of Transit an area of concentrated development it kind of is but I think that's a harder one to sell than and other highly suitable locations so remember that wonderful jargon highly suitable locations Transit access we don't have rail bus or Ferry um concentrated development we meet many of these criteria if you look at the area that's um being explored for sewer uh you can read it it has to be 50% commercial development or commercial zoning in place and uh we'll look at that in our case if not sew eligibility is discretionary unless the area qualifies an an existing rural Village it's all well and good I don't think we have the technology to deal with the effluent on this site and I don't mean to be adding my opinion so liberally here other highly suitable locations Transportation like a state highway um infrastructure um public water walkability safe roots to schools on route 10 and about to be added on Pomeroy Meadow and the greenway of course land use zoning in the district we'll look at infill Redevelopment and you might tee up a question around infill Redevelopment what that looks like for generating new income and prior planning we spoke about the master plan and the housing production plan in particular it's as of right with site plan review at the planning Bo planning board yes MH other Z in requirements do not apply lot siiz setbacks all that we're in A Brave New World design standards are a whole thing and I'm not going to get very much involved in that tonight but it's important that the development program look like Southampton we've gone through that with a public safety building discussion what should the outside look like we're not a rich town we're a town that's committed to our citizens so where's that appropriate Middle Ground similarly if we're building commercial spaces and residential spaces and affordable housing you know it's it's got to look good and to work together no age restrictions but you know if you have rental housing that's one and two bedroom predominant it is suitable for an older couple or single that's looking for a less expensive housing must be primarily residential but I think that it has um flexibility about mixed use more than our current zoning of key Parson so we touched on affordability minimums uh I think we should set the goal higher if we can but um it it's a mix of affordability levels there are four or five different levels and we might try and hit all of them all the way up to what's described as Workforce housing uh that's kind of geared towards that Municipal worker who's not making a lot of money or trades person who's not a master plumber but they're a journeyman and where how do they get started so affordability at several different levels it's not just very very poor people and starter home zoning districts all the way up to 110% of the area median income and of course you have to look that up what that all means the financial incentives you know if we're looking at a good size district with a good size potential for new and redeveloped units um it could be a meaningfully large payment when your bylaw is approved and that can only be used for Capital costs which I don't know if that includes the final design for sewer but maybe it's a down payment on Town match for sewer the process um we've found bill at the executive office of Housing and Liverpool communities and we'll be following up with him local public hearing on Zone application we're not doing that tonight we're just learning tonight but there will be be more opportunities for the public to hear and voice their opinion about a potential zoning article which would have to be adopted in the normal course however we do that but the state also determines whether we're eligible so those um exceedingly desirable [Music] qualities have to actually pass the local zoning provide them evidence they give you letter of approval and you're ready to go off and do your project oh and get paid anything else the previous slide Stephen about 40s a little bit could you you kind of skipped over it oh did I am sorry intentional but because it wasn't applicable or keep going please 40s oh 40s is a school reimbursement and um it's based on your specific experience in the lease out and I could not comment on the calculation is it a lot significant amount yes so to my understanding in conversation with uh the executive office there's only been two communities to date that have consistently applied for reimbursement through the program uh they're on the east side of the state I think reading is one of them um so this applies for new students that enter the system that reside within the district yep the new 40R District it um the 40s program requires annual reporting to prove that those students are you know enrolled and living there uh unfortunately it is not um funded annually so it hasn't been a consistent program to raw funding from um but again there's only been I think I think lunenberg might actually be one of the communities that has also dipped into the funding so uh there is a bit of a complex formula associated with it um so it's did the housing Bond Bill include anything for this or is that not at that level gr the liity I have not seen anything in my summaries of the bond build related to 40 yes but I can I'll Circle back to that that's a fair question uh what you mean by it's not funded annually uh there is no um there's no line item in the annual budget dedicated to this run out uh yeah and then it has to be um you know negotiated some Advocates have to go to the state and you know voice their desires for the funding it's not a lot you know as histo to my understanding communities haven't been using it um I think mostly because of the effort it takes to just prove that the school district has been you know taking on an additional burden with those uh greater enrollment numbers but um it's also just an inconsistent funding source thank you good that cover it J um the process slide we've been over Stephen on the on the next Slide the last slide that that slide there the way I'm understanding this I'm not sure if it's in chronological order but is it that the eohc first determines the eligibility before we'd ever go to a town meeting scenario is that what happens yeah okay got it if I may um there is a potential though um if you were to go through a 40 hour process and you were to send in the application and eohc determined you're ineligible at the time if you were to put into place the zoning that would meet the requirement you know just thinking about the zoning element eligibility could be the district could be determined ineligible because of other factors not the zoning the um communities can apply for 40R eligibility with existing zoning in place if it meets that if it meets those requirements so you could Circle back if the if the zoning itself would meet the criteria and you wanted to push ahead you had the political um impetus and support you could enact the zoning have a smart growth overlay District on the books and then come back when you might have checked off those other criteria okay yeah uh it's been adopted in communities across the state but um a little bit more on the Eastern side of the state and more builtup places but if you look at us here in the Hampshire hamton border we're the one that's missing in this Metropolitan cluster and you can say well we're not Westfield and we're not eastampton but we are in the middle and the middle always gets hurt so it's time for us to chart our own destiny can I can I ask a question folks yep we're going to Y oh there you are I'm up here y on a pond in Northern Vermont um so a couple things first of all Paul demon mentioned that this original study went back like a decade um um and I'm wondering how old the slideshow is specifically in terms of potential reimbursement has not been altered at all CU everything else is more expensive now is and secondly is this based on um State budgeting in terms of success in getting the kinds of support that you're outlining in the slideshow Stephen does anybody know um if this is dated and if there'll be an update on any of that uh to just understand the question you're asking if the incentive uh payments have changed over time um to my knowledge they have not so the initial scheme of incentive payments based on future zoned units has remained the same from the initial legislation being passed in the early 2000s um which is a bit unfortunate because costs of development have increase dramatically um those those payments are guaranteed though so they're not um as vulnerable as the 40s funding so if the if a 40R um district is adopted uh the executive office of housing liable communities guarantees that payment so the second part of my question was it's and you sort of answered it in terms of the guarantee but that it's not based on the budget the the state budget the governor's budget Etc it's it's guaranteed to to my yeah to to my understanding I um in conversation with again Bill rail he's the expert um and I believe he reviewed the application back in 2012 um to my understanding there there have there hasn't been an applicant that was approved that did not get their incentive Bon bonus so need to close it out okay sorry reading has a downtown district and you'll get to see that in a minute 1131 so apparently I'm getting kicked off every time the access code changes so while we're waiting for that Kyle did I understand you correctly then you we could work on an overlay District or districts um prior to any application yes that's accurate so if the planning board wanted to take that up uh it's essentially it's a zoning overlay District mechanism so very simpler to very simple or similar excuse me similar to how you might draft a flood plane overlay or a water supply overlay you know there there are there is base zoning that remains in place um and the planning board would go about creating all the criteria for uh setbacks design standards densities whatnot um it did you could and in effect the way the application is built for 40R there is a model bylaw that eohc drafted many years ago and the expectation is when you apply you actually build your mod your bylaw for the town off of the model so they like to see a line by line you know how are you CH how are you taking the model adapting it to the local circumstances of the community to meet the criteria and prove eligibility that model is available you could take that on uh as a planning board start working towards developing a smart growth District um kind of in abstraction um or in concept and then decide to move forward with an application when you deem it's appropriate right um we're going to not fuss about the rest of these slides we've slid into the question and answer period And I think that um that's perfect what is going to be harder Scott is for you to guide us through how we decided on the district for the feasibility study of the sewering and then we'll connect that to um the 40R concept for Midtown we're going to have to have a jazz club in this we're calling it Midtown um so I had to follow question on what you just said which is just um don't you think that if we did take the initiative to establish that zoning first they would be more likely to approve our request just because they'd be so proud of us um I think that's a wonderful uh question and I would I would hope to I would my hopeful answer would be yes um based on my understanding of the program historically um I think ear there were many communities some in the pineer valley for example that were early adopters that have developed zero housing units in their 40R districts uh I believe over the years the department or the executive office of housing liable communities they've become um more cautious when it comes to applying um early adopters built their districts over one parcel one large parcel they tend to caution against that um so I think if the community were to take it on to explore smart growth broadly you know just as a concept um keeping it aligned with the 4dr application uh showing a dedication to that I think would be uh favorable yeah well while you're up there maybe you can address my question I brought this up to Mr Harris as well when he brought 40 yards to the planning board um my concern was say we had set up a 40 yard district and we have all the best intentions of getting housing built but for whatever reason it doesn't work out um does the state have any mechanism to pull any of that funding back if in the end we do not succeed in getting any of the affordable housing built right um Fair question uh I've heard it from other communities uh in conversation with Bill ra they have never retracted or rescinded that incentive payment I believe reviewing the legislation they have the authority to do so okay yeah but to my understanding they have not done that right so I think from the town's perspective as long as we we have the plan as we're talking about about how we can pursue this we're we're going about this with with all the uh providing all the good faith that's possible that we we intend to do this so I mean the the state has to take us on that absolutely I ask two more questions before you sit down sure so first of all you mentioned early on I think about the application process and it sounded like it's kind of an honorous process can you give us an idea of the kinds of things not in detail but just the kinds of things that we have to think about including in an application and then what other communities in the general area if there are any that may have been going through or are going through this whole idea of the 40R right now or in recent memory sure uh so first to the elements of an application uh the largest um element would be the zoning bylaw itself uh and all the required components additionally though there has to be uh an analysis the slide that uh Paul handed out uh the spreadsheet that's part of um of an uh an impact analysis uh to show various scenarios of buildout so that would be a component um and there would be required narrative to explain you know how those calculations come about um local maps are required there they have to see the delineation of the district which is um in my professional experience the not the best place to start the conversation with the community um drawing lines on maps usually kind of causes friction so um so you have Locus Maps impact analysis proof of infrastructure or plans for infrastructure improvements to meet those criteria uh your zoning bylaw the there has to be a uh a copy of a public notice to show that you've had a public meeting to discuss it so that it's not just being slipped under the The public's eyes you know um and I believe that's all to my recollection right now U but there are you know us uh oh yeah so um yeah just looking at the the past exper um um summary of the um the district you have to identify the category for eligible locations so um as was said earlier like Transit oriented development that does not qualify for your community um overall size of the parcel of the district excuse me the percentage of the area it the 40R cannot um exceed I believe in total 20 to 25% of the total land area of the community you can't make a whole town 40 our district um so you have to just kind of provide those calculations um uh identify if there's an existing rural Village District already in place uh I think I've spoke land area developable area again talking to what is actually developable which that's where your soils studies and your infrastructure all that in place any communities in the general oh communities so uh to date there are seven communities in the the pioner valley uh Hampshire and Hampton counties that have 40R districts on the books Northampton East Hampton Westfield South Hadley Hadley Holy Oak thank you Holy Oak and um no chicka yes and Palmer Palmer um currently there are two communities that are investigating exploring the topic uh East Long Meadow looking uh focusing on their Center Town District that's what they're calling it right around the rotary um and their Municipal complex and Hadley is exploring it along Route n um broadly yeah and of the existing districts there's only one that has has not developed any housing units and that would be in Westfield in Westfield how long have they had the district uh most of those districts were in the late 2000s 2008 I believe is Westfield so they have 16 years the dist would yeah if you're familiar with driving South towards Southwick leaving town um there's a little Brew Pub that overlooks some fields that's their District that's so the fact that at the core of this there's an undeveloped parcel um means that we maybe have an edge up in terms of um drawing lines on the map drawing lines on well let me first I just want you just referred to something earlier you something about is they're not happy it's just in one area of the district so I mean you know the parcel we're kind of looking at is just one area I don't know if that would be the entire overlay District so if we did one in one area they would be more receptive to having more than one small I just wanted to clarify what I heard thought I heard you said yeah I'm sorry if I misspoke but historically early adopters of 40R would delineate a single parcel so one lot on the property map the now executive office of housing liable communities frowns upon that they would like to see multiple uh pieces of property Beyond you know trying to be a little bit more expansive um what do you mean by pieces of property so if looking at the map um so the the property that we're discussing tonight a total of 56 acres is actually three lots drawn on the M on the property map three deed Lots right so um it's a lot of pro it's a lot of area it's 56 Acres it could be looked upon favorably they could come back and suggest expanding it to include you know all the way to Lyn Road or even further on the south side of College Highway they could even suggest delineating across the highway to include some of the more densely currently developed um I believe there are apartment complexes and Condominiums and such if I could I just want to go through the list and we'll bounce off this again because we keep saying if it's not already a rural Village Center if it's not a Transit oriented then it has to have these highly suitable features right good so we have a blank slate at one 17 to 125 College Highway and a wish list for mixed use housing and Commercial and the town would like to stimulate economic development in the community in addition Housing Development so looking at effective ways to blend those two things on this Blank Slate but it's larger than 117 125 if you look at the other highly suitable criter area an existing business dist district is certainly much bigger than the Fringe piece of 117 to 125 so there's an existing business district right along Route 10 in this Half Mile Stretch that you see in the sewer feasibility study post office an example of a Civic building a major inter section that defines the community pomoy Meadow and Route 10 certainly is that a school nor a school is at the top of the map just off the extent that you see pedestrian infrastructure we have existing um sidewalks that were developed with safe roots to schools and we have tip scheduled improvements save fruits to schools plus the greenway which is a destination pedestrian resource and really if you look in the uh area inside that yellow polygon there uh rout 10 pomoy Meadow and gun Road Extension um it includes many of the businesses almost all the multif family in town and the smallest starter homes the original starter homes in Southampton so it looks like it's got a whole handful of Highly suitable uh features how do you work with qualifying this neighborhood if you only apply the zoning on a portion of it or do you need to be expansive and look at this is my Redevelopment question what does Redevelopment of a facility like Hampton South condominiums or one of the older um apartment buildings that's looking at a failing septic system and maybe they're already going ahead with a you know as best you can replacement on existing site that has the same limited soils we presume so you know we've got 56 Acres maybe about 45 on the west side of the greenway CU 11 is going to be conservation do we get bonus points for doing conservation I don't know for sure all right great question it's flanked by conserved Farmland to the north and to the South so it's a wonderful context and it also has Frontage on the manhan river which is a sensitive habitat I identified by natural heritage endangered species there's been a lot of work on connectivity because we do have anatomist species in the river that need to be able to move back and forth so I think that we can ring a lot of bells in terms of the public benefits and in so doing recruit a lot of support uh political and other onse I'm not going to try and describe the existing zoning just mentioned that it is residential Village and Commercial Village and they have their own peculiar Provisions for multifam and various permitting processes again I drew it from Parson's Village submission to the zba of 18 months ago or two two years ago so our feasibility study is now keyed up for Scott to talk us through so the town's contracted with you name Mike so the town's contracted with Ty and bond to provide a sewer feasibility study and I think one of the main differences from the previous ones that we've done is really looking at access um instead of long 10 which is obviously a state road um looking at access for the main sewer to connect to East Hampton would be through the greenway Pro property or the greenway uh rail trail along the South uh as stepen mentioned that this area is very um I guess dense dense in terms of Southampton it's probably the the densest area you have the Condominiums you have the apartment buildings you have uh the Pisano Plaza you have um the school obviously and then if we were to develop the 52 56 Acres uh with additional housing I think that'd be a good candidate for 40R and the sewer we hope to have the sewer feasibility study probably around October October November I think um the good thing about using Tha and bond is you're already familiar with East Hampton's sewage uh facility plant and and the design of their um their their pipes um so that should expedite it a little bit more but obviously it's the big question is the cost and how we can defay that with grants and other uh marks um moving forward so that's where we are right so if you zoom out a little bit the blue or whatever color that is line question is the outside of the feasibility study have a question for Scott so tyan Bon is doing feasibility what uh was the outcome of discussion that I believe you and Steven had with the mayor be stampton are they accepting and how much will they accept is that has that been agreed upon the technical aspect has to be talked to between their DPW Pond and obviously Southampton uh but I can tell you that the mayor is very supportive of this she is and tyan bond has assessed the infrastructure in place and backed out as best I could first cut at what the water use is being dumped into the sewer or they have sewer rates too anyway there's a likelihood that there is plenty of capacity for this entire District built out but it's a feasibility study where will that take us it will give us a sense that it could or couldn't fit in conjunction with the development of the greenway tyan bond is is also the greenway designer so they have all the gis loaded up they have survey data but they will only take the sewer to a feasibility it's bigger than the bread box it's likely to cost X and then if we decide to pursue it we'd have to hire Engineers to take it to 25% design to apply for Grants and ultimately put it out the bid the the part of this that's been confusing to me not the 40R but the timing and the the uh sequence oh how shall I say prerequisites for no the what's the priority I mean is the is the public safety complex and the senior center going to wait for sewer before they break round so that is where I'm confused because I would have expected a land use study would have been done first um and the safety complex the senior center take priority over that and then this 40R would would come after that but it seems to me I'm I get a little bit confused on all the moving Parts in and what is going to be done and what is going to be waiting for sewer and in the timing of it all well I I can tell you that we're looking at ways that we can bring in a land use planner right now uh at least not on staff but through a contractor to help us start with the land use planning uh we don't own the land yet so we're going to be closing on it in late September uh once we have ownership um then the planning phases are going to start so we're going to we're going to hire a land use planner to help us go through that process we're in the middle of redesigning or I guess revisioning our Public Safety complex right now um we do have a pretty firm plan for Council on Aging as well but we need someone to kind of help us bring that together figure out where we're going to locate it what other types of uses there there could be possible um and obviously sewer is going to play a big part on that so whether or not uh sewer is going to be available for you know new housing or if it has to remain a much smaller uh project that's really to be determined so in all for all intents and purposes though the 40 the 40R concept here in the the idea is is going to be somewhat down the road after after the complex safety complex and the senior center right we're going to we're going to have to locate the uh safety complex and the senior center first and then from that point we would see what's available and then I would expect you would then Encompass a 40R District or or adopt or a 40R zoning District uh after the fact to Encompass those those areas with those buildings already in place correct I have an idea or thought oh thank you very much I forgot about that part uh just thinking through what what was said about a 40 hour before is there is that that whatever it is like half a million dollars they provide to the town for uh signing a 40- yard District I'm wondering if we use that in timing if we were to get all things arranged such that we're applying for Grants and that is our matching piece then starting the 40R sooner would allow us to secure that money to pursue the implementation of a sewer so thinking about funding is that going to include the infrastructure so I think that's the question of how much it costs and how it would be funded is something that has to be included studied but I think that I heard people mention like looking at Grants right and there has to be a match Corp and to get that you have to have a certain percentage complete so the four yard District could be a funding mechanism to to um get that part the work done maybe I I think just to tie in a little bit to Paul having been on both of the feasibility committees um both structures both of Public Safety building and the future Senior Center are both designed with septic in mind right now that is the design uh so that's that's probably still going to be in my mind just given the cost of both of those facilities um and the urgency of both of those coming into play I personally would see those and this is my own personal opinion see those coming first before we get into really developing the whole housing process so I mean the sewer thing hopefully will turn out to be feasible but it's going to be another cost and how we how we Finance all of this from borrowing to Grants is going to be a huge challenge for all the facilities we want to do but right now both facilities are being designed with septic in mind sure um just to follow up on Paul's Point um I've been an advocate since February of having professional land planning services to especially begin with the public engagement Pak and I have to say that with the good work that Public Safety and seniors have done on their feasibility studies the rest of our boards and committees need to run fast and catch up this is a process tonight of helping the Housing Authority understand what the range of possibilities are for dealing with this newly acquired property I think that it very well may be the case that a public safety building is built first and it may have to have a septic system but we absolutely need pass this scope I know Paul's received it several times electronically we're sending the scope of services around for the public engagement and land planning Services is probably not one individual it's Technical and process both but it also begins with us each of the boards and committees so we've also developed a onepage tell us what your wish is so let's pick let's pick on somebody let's pick on the parks department so town of Southampton land use Master planning wish list from the Housing Authority title of land use Athletic Facility or courts Fields next question you give it a three sentence description but tell us what's the footprint of the building or built area how many parking spaces do you need what are your wants and don't wants and there are at least six boards committees and authorities that need to chime in on that housing can I mean uh seniors can do it real fast um fire is evolving um but they're the best developed I think there's Synergy in planning it all together and that's why I continue to be an outspoken advocate for moving forward with professional help I I'm I see this as a 40R runs parallel to the other projects right I mean it sounds like it's an lengthy process and to wait for Public Safety and seniors and then begin the process it seems like it makes more sense to run parallel to develop the district while we're doing and the public safety and the senior center is part of the district if we can't answer how many units we want to build on this parcel we can't finish the application for 40R so we do need the land planning the public engagement the Synergy so that we can write a bylaw that facilitates the type of development program we envision not something that was baked in Boston and we can do it um so you are so you're not an agreement at all with the original 40R uh study done for the east ampton line well I started by saying I apologize it was done before my time I'm not familiar with it as a professional planner that looks like all Redevelopment not uh opportunity for significant out of the gate according to Richard Harris you could also and correct me if I'm wrong you uh uh fellas that you could also have subd you could also have multiple districts overlay districts that would be fine correct yes fine so in drafting your smart growth zoning you can have multiple districts so you could do um you could go back to the original proposal from the 2011 study and feasibility and application you could think of multiple subdistricts um that would you know increase your total future zoned units you could have them be very identical in terms of densities allowed just you know just different geography or you could actually differentiate and have one that's more mixed use more commercial you could have one that's more um strictly residential uh you could change the degrees of affordability requirements you could change the design standards even if you wanted the Gateway par you know if you wanted uh a district towards East Hampton to look different than what you would want in uh Midtown or the Village Center um you could determine all that uh and shape your districts design your districts accordingly another concept that was not really touched on that was a part of the uh slides provided from Bill ra 40 y the starter home zoning District receives the same incentive bonus payments as 40R requires less density it has a wider range of affordability so that you could have affordability set at 110% of area median income so it would more people would qualify you would have uh less required overall units that would have to be affordable as well so just another concept to consider question the title confusing is starter home do they have to be for firsttime home buyers or can it be seniors which is a part large part of our population it's a great question uh I don't believe I have the regulation in a big pile over there uh I don't believe um I don't believe you can legislate ownership necessary you can't Define it uh it's more it's more of a um uh a size oh I see and also number of bedrooms so so in a starter home District 50% of dwelling units have to have three or more bedrooms to attract the young families that are supposedly you know firsttime homeowners thank you very much yeah does the um why District count toward our Shi if there is an affordability restriction put on units that all of those units qualify for your subsidized housing inventory uh and based on our quick review of the housing production plan I believe you're currently sitting around 40 plus units 44 45ish uh that's about 2% so you're trying to get to 250 or so affordable units affordable in perpetuity to meet that 10% Benchmark outlined in 40b sorry for all the 40s if we if we did set the affordability for the starter Homes at 110% then it wouldn't qualify for the Shi we would have to set like voluntarily set it lower or is that not the case it's 80% is the you're right you're correct thank you for the Shi it has it it has to be 80% or less of affordable uh area medium area area median income thank you sorry actually I have one more question probably a great time to segue to you Siera and the next item on the agenda was update uh on the conversations that we've begun with wayfinders their CEO Keith Ferry and I guess we up to three different staff uh working with him exploring this possibility in Southampton I saw him at the rural Massachusetts conference in um Northampton uh where Keith Ferry was presenting on or the enormous challenge of affordable housing and how sort of practical how a community can be successful with that just pass that back to Paul please I have a copy of it well read it I have a lot to read I'm sorry summer can I ask a quick side question that ask yes you can you have the floor M apologies if this was already answered and I was spacing out what's is the time expected on the sewer feasibility study being done November okay thanks um and you want me to share more about speaking with wayfinders um well uh a lot of you have sort of already uh been updated on this but we did have wayfinders come out to walk that uh parcel with us um and they did see uh potential for um affordable housing to be built there and for them to be potentially interested in it um we've been staying in touch with them um mostly because they're sort of like the regional expert on um development of affordable housing um and because they actually do some of that development themselves we asked them for suggestions in terms of like land use planning um and Stephen just sent them a very detailed email well wayfinders both develops and manages uh affordable housing they're one of maybe five Community Development corporations that are active in the p VPC region but really they're The Sweet Spot for us um they're the interested developer and really very collegial in sharing their experience in other communities things went smoothly and things that didn't go smoothly right and they connected me with an Capra who's the um design and conservation director for South Hadley and I got to talk to her about their 40R development process um and you know her her two the two biggest takeaways from that was um number one 40R is not a Magic Bullet that creates housing for you like they took took them a while to get some housing built there although they do now um the only other thing she cautioned us against was um developing stringent design standards without having a architect or planner with us who's experienced with um affordable housing because I guess in their case the board just sort of like came up with some ideas for the design and then when people came down to actually trying to do it a lot of it just wasn't feasible so just having people at the table who will actually be doing some of that work during that process um so in terms of where we're at with wayfinders they did say they would come up with like some kind of vague proposal about like how many units could fit there for us but I I think what they did was refer us to two ongoing affordable housing developments um one I'm going to we've been talking about all one in Northampton uh no um two two the recent subsequent to Parson's Village um which is that crazy s not s coincidence that the proposed development for 17 to 25 was also called Parson's Village but wayfinders did uh a 40b development of Parson's Village in eastampton and it is a good reference point for Town Home Style development the two that are in construction by way finders are also town home program U programs um Village Hill in Northampton has a whole gamut it's mixed use with mixed results on the commercial retail kind of thing um office space they've rented out they have big apartments that are historic rehab they have new largish apartments they have town homes they have single family detached they even have a corner that is um co-housing and so that it spun off a sort of self-sufficient element the difference in nor Hampton is it was all run by mass development rather than the community it did not result in a simple life for the developer or a predictable path which hopefully 40R could give us so your understanding is they're not going to send us any additional info they're just basically like here based on what we've got in East Hampton tell us how many units or how many acres you think might be available for affordable housing so I think what we're trying to do Paul is for each of the Committees to Define their puzzle piece um we've got a pretty good sense although the footprint is evolving with the public safety building the senior center they may also wrestle with their cost of building but um here it is it's being promoted at uh all kinds of public venues 12,000 ft building that needs 80 parking spaces we've got a a footprint and we can bring that right into the mix do you like it better over here or over there or next to this or farther away from that and there's a Synergy that develops but we each have to own our puzzle piece and put it on the table and then the community creates a picture that's what I'm hoping to stimulate here by bringing experts um that already provide have provided a lot of the foundational planning services to the town we'll also have to hire a dedicated consultant to do our piece of what Paul describes as land planning and I add is community engagement as well different skill sets and that we need to get that going real fast to find the Synergy that'll help us afford the sewer that'll help us keep a really wonderful housing developer on the line collaborating so that when we get to saying this is a housing parcel it's feasible and we can put out an RFP and get responses because we' been thoughtful about the land planning and the community has designed it but with understanding of what a developer can actually fund and develop we've got to have that piece of reality yeah I think I'd like to say thank you Stephen for pulling all this together and uh maybe I think laying out that timeline of what what are the next steps as you have on on the agenda is is a place we're ready for and I I I agree with that the land planning part while when we have that person in place and can provide the detail on what in terms of housing we could build there and how that fits into the puzzle right then we can apply for a 4dr which it doesn't make sense not to do a 4dr if we're going to build affordable housing in this area anyway um to get the benefits of a 40 yard District to find um so I I see that as the next step as well as getting the result result of our our sewer study back so maybe those are the two gating or the next the F on steps the feed into um starting the application for 40R uh as a planning board the planner looking at the Green Space the 117 to 125 would develop collaboratively that program that would answer specifically okay the community has spoken and they are up for 25 units or 250 units or it's going to be 400 bedrooms and you you can't do it without sewer so the sequencing of the studies and the planning for the financing um I think it's very important that we let our elected officials know that we have these kinds of aspirations and that it'll be a five to or more year development program surely before it's all completed and leased out it'll be 5 to 10 years well good things take time if they get started right so I'm hoping that um people won't be bashful and they will who's who's a point of contact for this going forward you know our hired planner could be that sort of confidential good cop the treasurer will be the bad cop or whatever um but you know I've offered to take people for walks on the property so individually or collectively as uh committees authorities task forces you can get a tangible firsthand feeling for the property we've got maps that scale and Trace and we can you know we we can color up our own adventure but really to prove it out we're going to need a professional so identifying the source of funding for facilitation and land planning I'm not going to venture a number the LTA well we're already using we're always already using well of course that's you've already already discussed how you leverage the various you know um contributions the town would be willing to make to to get additional grants um it I think when you you have to contemplate what you actually want from the scope of work um so when I initially talked to Scott um the conversation led to okay I and and then got some more confirmation today with regards to the console in aging and the public safety complex right you're nearing some sort of footprint and that's very important um understanding visually too where you know where those things would go um obviously uh trying to navigate we've also talked about 4dr any sort of zoning changes that you know would be required to allow for different types of uses you talked about visioning there are probably specific uses that you may want in this new neighborhood um you're creating a new neighborhood or the there is a discussion put forward about a new neighborhood in Southampton um it's adjacent to a lot of additional density um it's a walkable area uh could be and I think it's just a matter of like Stephen said it it is identifying um both a process what the expectations would be over a certain time um and try to identify those particular Milestones that you would need you've you have some dates already with new reporting coming um that it might be you know a good time to start thinking about how you want to engage the community regarding this new uh acquired parcel um knowing that you um have these plans for the public safety complex and the council and aging that you know you can tell them yeah we'll put them here and here but there's a lot of additional land to use for you know other other types of uses in town um so with that said yes it it I think it requires some sort of facilitation some visioning um that a consultant would do in addition to um visualizations CU that's very important you're going to want you know to show the community where these places could look and in addition to that where if through the conversations with the various stakeholders where you could presumably see development you know along College Highway or is it you're going to have some um you know public uh Open Spaces near the river um near The Greenway um that the visualizations would help with regards to costs I mean I think you just have to it is trying to scope out the project and the and the specificity of the various components that are that you are seeking um is there a survey is there a community meetings that you would imagine here is the 50 up to 56 Acres that the town has acquired we may be thinking of putting the two spaces and and then what do you imagine you know and and kind of coming up with a set of regulations or a set of guidelines that presumably could lead to um a visualized neighborhood um so yeah I am guessing that's more than a local technical assistance yeah that being said yes it's definitely more than uh District local technical assistance there are grants out there you can leverage District local technical assistance um for that we were helping kle and I were helping communities use DTA funds to get more funds through like planning assistance grants um that that was in the spring uh so that was actually it was July um cuz they were late but um Community onetop could also be used for that right through onetop Housing Works does Housing Works have site planning support I would have to look at the the comp that particular program we're thinking about cycles of application and that one maybe too far out when we have a current need yeah and and the thing is You' you've identified it correctly it's the community onop is supposed to acknowledge this community thought you talk about your planning your visioning and then you're using the rest of the funding mechanisms that the community wants to provide for you know more technical things and you're like we're maybe now getting to mass works right and that's your big grant money that's for your infrastructure um yeah and pres the presumption is that um you know the town will be doing its due diligence as well as a consultant to identify those pots of money for you to you know navigate those larger projects for instance if the senior center wanted to be at the back side of the field at the edge of the woods who's going to build the road there no no no no there will be a whole Community with roads but in contrast to the fire department which wants to have explicit Frontage on Route 10 the senior center might be composed in this new Village this multi-age village with um attractive amenities you know first floor kind of coffee shop in retail second floor professional offices third floor apartments and performance space outdoors and you know your pickle ball court would have to be on the other side but everything else that the seniors want would would bring uh another wonderful piece of Vibrant Community Life into this community so just talk about how we move this along is it a request from the planning board to to ask the select board for funding I guess how what's the mechanism here for the town to get the monies for a study we should ask the chair and the Town [Music] Administrator I mean we've spoken about several we do have experience with one stop we we do have experience with LTA we do have experience with larger sums of funding for planning projects like the greenway so um there are funding channels that are specific to recreational trails to affordable housing just just one thing in terms of timing though so the One-Stop Mass Trails all of those are not until the spring there's usually an expression of Interest then there's a whole couple of months to develop an application so you never hear about it until usually May June if you're lucky so we're you know that's quite a ways out I mean your your expressions of Interest are usually January February is um so if we're looking for something in terms of a planning process sooner than that which is what I think I'm hearing we've got to figure out other sources of funding besides that right now I think it's not going to be cheap um to hire you know a firm to do the land use planning um we're going to have to find the funding somewhere more than likely would to come from something approved by town meeting hopefully we have a special town meeting after that we're going to have to do an RFP process which you know will take 30 to 60 days do a review process so we're a little bit aways from the actual hiring of a land use planner but you have to remember that this project really is only a few months old um you know it was only in April that the senior center found out that he couldn't go to their preferred site and then in May uh town meeting approved it and purchasing the whole 550 2 Acres was only in May and then obviously the voters approved in June uh and we're closing out in next month so we're we're in a very early stage and there's a lot of moving parts that have to go on I think the important thing to say is you know we've we've done a great job as a town moving this project along and this is the I think the the most viable and appropriate next step to take um in moving this along so we want to help I think as a the planning board I think the the question is perhaps the planning board what can we provide to um I think it's maybe to the town Administration to to allow this to seek funding does the select board want to direct each of the potentially interested boards and committees to complete the onepage wish list yes we do yes we do well and right now that's Public Safety that's Senior Center that's Housing Authority Parks has kind of come and gone and we're not sure where they are open space committee is probably another one U maybe the school those are the ones we've heard about um and I don't know how advanced I mean a lot of work has gone into the public safety and the senior center feasibility studies I mean these have been months long year-long study to get done in order to get that footprint we we need all that background to I know but we've got that because we've put out money we've hired Consultants we've spent a year-long process what I'm saying is these other committees don't have the funding to do that and haven't had the time to put that together this is a new idea for them as well so I'm not sure where that's where that's going to go I'm not sure where where all that's going to go but I think you know we've got to we've got to figure out what I I guess I'm wondering where and I don't know where pvpc can help us on this but given that the earlier study was done I mean I I don't want us to start from scratch I it feels like we did something in 2012 we got somewhere with it maybe a lot of it you know 70% of it maybe is not relevant anymore I have no idea but is it worth taking a stab at looking at that old report somehow with pvpc help I don't know question mark uh um to at least you know um highlight which areas are still relevant to us that we could then build upon with a new planning process I guess that would be a question rather than just sort of starting from the beginning again which is what I'm sort of feeling like we're aiming for here yeah I mean I think that there's always an opportunity to dust off the pl similar to how you were looking at updating the master plan or you know trying to find the status of many of the uh strategies that you identified in the master plan so you the the town has um local technical assistance which it can request up to 22 and 1 half hours of pvpc time to maybe navigate project proposal um I also think that something like this is a great candidate for DTA we're nearing the end of the year I mean it's weird to say that we're nearing the end of the year but uh um but dlta is a a an option to at least you know a be both a a way to really assess the previous plan and see how there may be some connections with the previous work that was done um on the on the 40 art and then also be used as seed money for another Grant um for additional planning maybe you know taking a look in the spring where the opportunity may be more timely based on some of the conversations that are happening in town and obviously you can uh throughout that process identify other ways to engage the community however you know people would want to engage the community at this point um but yeah I could foresee that we can assist with some sort of thinking around this and spend you know a little bit of time thinking about it and how to maybe look at things that were done in the past with regards to 40R and how could it apply now have other communities who have recently gone through the 40R process hired land use planners to support their application so what I'll say is that we're currently working with communities to talk through what the communities want so it's a lot of visioning surveying um Community meetings um these are obviously established neighborhoods already um but identifying possibilities of Redevelopment brief uh infill that which is briefly mentioned um that uh pvpc is providing um some support with that we've also as Paul mentioned provided support with southampton's initial application in 2012 um I was hoping I was fishing for um a list of private firms Consultants that are active in this space your for-profit counterparts or sure deeper dive yeah they're I mean they're out there um that's what I'll say um I've got a long list I'm trying to shorten it okay um and I'm happy to engage with you on that but yeah all right I I didn't expect you'd give an endorsement I this um so I I hear enthusiasm that we need to move along towards hiring a community engagement and land use planning firm um and we need to find the funding to effectually effectual boom make that happen um I come back to we can jump start our own situation Chris and pvpc have identified um with Paul getting on top of the 166 page document I'll read it from cover to cover and uh we'll we'll see what that brings um I think continuing to have dialogue with people who are actually interested in developing things Public Safety seniors and a housing developer will really help inform the process that we don't go off on a tangent and say we want you know glass Towers 10 Stars tall and know you don't have market for that you know we need a reality check from professional plan planners uh but also their experience to help us find what I promise are synergies out there and a good landscape architect land planner especially with the engagement of our boards committees and authorities that's what they do all day long that's what we eat sleep and drink so I think Paul I don't know what you think about doing a DTA I mean it might be something at your next you know planning board meeting but I I mean if if you think that that's something that would be worthwhile to take a look at the old old report and sort of just figure out what parts of that make sense to continue and build upon or or not I mean I think it's usually planning board that puts that forward to pvpc if I understand correctly every every year we apply um I'd like to have a conversation at our next meeting with um Richard Harris on um an approach and might even um ask you folks for some input I'm sure he'll probably in be in contact with you but I think we've got to create the overlay District first with the criteria that's necessary um for 40R and get that in place for the one District Two districts whatever we seem to to need and then once that's in place then we can start the wheels turning on the other but as for land use planning I I have no I have no clue on where to begin on that um you know who might be of uh assistance is George Russell because he's a certified planner in the conservation department he's on the payroll and he might have uh some interesting uh feedback in in connections he's got on land use planners that he might guide you on um going forward with this it's been especially hard to reach Richard Harris I wonder if you could lead the charge oh he's on vacation I'm jealous he's been on vacation for months that's why he retired from South adley so um is is that sufficient Clarity what's Housing Authority going to be working on um oh yeah so I mean if you send us our form to fill out we got that um and honestly I think we do we are going to need this you know supposed Consultants help to come up with what exactly we can do in the acreage I mean we can look at you know we were just talking about what are the you know minimums uh densities for um 40R for town houses if we think that you know town hous are the way we want to go that's the way wayfinders is going you know we can have some sort of parameters but um I think it's hard like for me um who's relatively inexperienced in this area to say okay sure we're going to take six acres I want them right here and there's going to be 80 units you know I'm going to need some more help and information on that so you just get the ball started and then it goes in iterative process um do I have a motion to adourn the Housing Authority meeting yeah I think we're ready to good okay have a second second all in favor hi hi thank you iscome and with thanks to our special guests from pvpc um Ken and Kyle it's really great to have you hearing it in real time as we fumble forward Scott thank you for being the point person on this wouldn't wouldn't think of it um the planning board has similar intention of doing a small item of business so you're competing for two of us thank you guys for together select will be are you having a meeting after this is that it for that's what he said both boards have I have just one item and it's Richard Harris's contract for oh yes the next fiscal year did you send that out it's right here and if you want to read all the fine print no right ahead but in essence $90 per hour plus travel if he comes to meetings and he has a u $7,500 um maximum for his that we approve the contract negotiated by Paul demon for outside planning consultant second all in favor I you have a motion to adour so moved second [Music] second you got that as three yes one no [Music] 301 all right one more meeting to go no 310 okay one Zer you guys for planning yes um so we did have one more um topic just to discuss things have been moving kind of rapidly at the COA I know last week we talked about um doing a search committee and then we were looking at into doing internal candidates yeah um we we just found out late last week that Deb Deb Brad is going to she has a unfortunately she has a personal issue uh that she's going to prevent her from continuing on in the interim capacity I see so so it's going to be our last week next week um I would like to move forward with interviewing the internal candidate I'm going to uh as soon as possible with the hopes of um kind of Expediting this for approval of the select board for Tuesday evening y um at that point we'd still have to probably do an emergency hire of the person for 2 weeks and then final approvals by the pqb and then select board again um but this is just to have some continuation of leadership in the Counsel on Aging if that person does if that person does um you know is the best person so you know I know that we had the um directive before but to do the internal candidate I'm not sure if we really need to do a timeline and redo the job description right now and create a posting and post at mcoa um you know really essentially just having a very small group uh probably myself Janet um Ted Palmer who is the new COA director uh COA board chair sorry um Francine Francine COA Friends of the COA Friends of the COA um and there was one other COA board member that was interested too um the I believe it was the doctor uh perhaps yeah um and then uh hopefully one of the select board members what depends on the time time of day I guess just to get um you said Tuesday uh probably you know probably later Tuesday um that the person's going to be available uh and if the interview goes well then this small group could recommend action by the select board to take the next steps if not then we would move forward with doing a nationwide search uh for this next next director so putting on the mcoa and you know MMA and all the other advertisements so so this would not be an interim this would be an emergency that might be permanent yeah just TimeWise I mean because we won't be able to get it by the pqb before Tuesday night come to an agreement with salary um so when are they meeting uh they're meeting later next week so they would have to approve the emergency then they would go back to the select board for approval of the emergency hire and permanent so you're looking for somebody from select board to join the committee yeah um if this is okay any volunteers what time again it's Tuesday late I don't know I need like a time it'll be like Tuesday afternoon to evening early evening before the secondy board meeting obviously I I I may be able to join them but I cannot commit to those time okay I sign a warrant every Tuesday and that's a variable time requirement so I'll be available around that okay thank you sir so if that's okay to do like the small committee approach all right so then all those in favor of stepen being our the appointed uh select board person to be on the interview second group okay uh I think uh I I have a motion or second I thought you were making the motion I'll make motion person and I second it second okay all those in favor I Palmer I okay Palmer i fs I great Johnson and Val all right very good okay so so be it okay than okay thank you Cindy motion to adjourn back toing Boris motion to adjourn I have a second uh second all right we are adjourned at 859 thank you very much all right thank you very much that was a lot of work all together e