e e e e e e e e e e of the city of St Pete Beach today is Tuesday March 12th 2024 it is 6: p.m. if you'll stand for the Pledge of Allegiance please to the flag of the United States of America and to the for it stands one nation god indiv with liy and justice city clerk if you'll please do a roll call commissioner Marriott here commissioner Philz here commissioner asiki here vice mayor Lorenzen here mayor patrill here we have a quorum do we have any amendments to the agenda as proposed mayor I I would like to propose and hopefully May uh commissioner res Nikki can hear us loud and clear um based on the amount of uh emails and calls I've received on the uh item 4 a the doncesar boat ramp analysis or Alternatives um I would like to just move that to a discussion item and perhaps continue this to another meeting uh with the option of perhaps having like a town hall or something in between because I think it's a lot of folks that feel like U not that this was done out of order but that no public comment other than here tonight would be available so I would propose if we could move that to maybe 5A or 5B if if that's amendable to the rest of the to you and the rest of the Commissioners um I would still like to see the entire presentation so that we have it uh I do agree that it seems like a town hall should be in order so that we can get some Community input um whether we leave it as an action item or discussion item I'm not sure that it matters I think if you move it to a discussion item it it's establishes that you're not going to approve anything tonight but you can still hear the uh the full presentation and then I think there might be some folks in the audience who want to speak on it as well so they'd be able to do that as well any further changes do I have a motion to approve the agenda has amended yes I'd like to uh move item 4A or turn it into a discussion item for the D is our boat ramp analysis so move 4 a to 5B sure okay do we have a motion to that effect I move to approve the agenda as amended a second city clerk if you'll please do a roll call commissioner Philz yes commissioner as Nikki yes vice mayor Lorenzen yes commissioner marott yes mayor patrilla yes motion carries all right so the clct there's a note here action requests motion to approve of the March 12th sorry I I read the wrong date here um do we have any audience comments we do General audience comments Gina muuli Gina muuli Teresa Chef stad if you please state your name and address for the record Teresa shead pass a girl Hello everybody thank you for letting me have some time um I just want to give a couple of suggestions if I may regarding the application process in general um the staff does an amazing job they put together what nearly a thousand Pages would you mind specifying which application process you were referring to uh for a cup application for a conditional use application yes thank you okay thank you and then planning has to Wade through it you all have to Wade through it and uh then there's the resolutions that get presented this is just a sample I'm not speaking to anyone specific but you know that looks quite intimidating and then there's a lot of discussion about um rights property rights so I just have a suggestion when I was trying to go through those 8 1 72 Pages I'm like is there just one page of a summary of what the Motions are this is a page that's in one of the cup applications and I think there's a column missing and the column sets the basis of what are the property rights in the comp plan that's before there's any cups and if it could be presented by staff to show what those rights are it gives you a perspective of how far you're removing moving away from that and giving more and more under the cup for instance in one situation the units are not to exceed 30 per acre and yet the cup is presented with 75 more than twice as much and I think just for a quick reader whether it's planning committee or you I think it's important to see the basis of what the rights are and then what the applicant is asking for and then it's a domino effect because then staff works on it presents it and says well under the cup they can get this Max and they give some conditions which aren't enough to mitigate the issues and then it gets presented to you so that's just a suggestion those numbers may not be right it's just an example and then if I could there's some bullet points I wanted to suggest thank you in the process too because again the front end it seems to be flawed and then things snowball this is my perspective from an outsider thank you so some of the bullet points if they could be considered is we do have wonderful people that work for the city but I hear that you know their Staffing is not full and uh you know experience levels are different so when you're looking at these cups does the staff have does the city have the proper Staffing and staff expertise for you to rely on because a lot of you said we relying on staff the next is has the city received and considered the community input and done so on a timely basis you know are you getting those things from the developers are we getting them after the fact is the community not being represented is what the community saw is what we saw in those first presentations is that what you're seeing time's up so I'll let you finish reading those bullet points and thank you for your time thank you I have John kurman a general comment thank you please state your name and address for the record John kurman be under way not speaking as a beach Steward so I'm speaking on the same Trend um people should be made aware of all the exceptions to the ordinances the various ordinances when you're looking at a conditional use and you should bear in mind that only division four is about conditional use permits for instance for instance uh section 35 is about what large resort District uh is or a large resort and I think I should draw attention for instance that in the definitions of a large resort uh they talk about a large scale development which is three acres in size or greater and they mention that because in the verbiage of the comprehensive plan talks about they looked at the size of the Lots in the large resort District so if you're to start changing the size of the Lots you would need to really revamp the comprehensive plan comprehensive plan is done with a map that's in mind and so any change to the lot size would need to change the actual comprehensive plan itself and and so also in in in section 35 39 it talks about you know uh the 10- foot sidewalks it talks about street level facades and so if you just think back to your last cup you know it talks about walls and now they need to be open so you guys when you were looking at um the last plan you actually modifying not just conditional use you were modifying section 39 which is not part of conditional use when you were starting to deal with walls and so you need to be careful to be I think call out even the changes that are not making changes to conditional use but making changes to other sections but here is the maps that are set in the comprehensive plan they're M the maps are not set by applicants they're not set by the staff they're not set by the tax assessor they're actually separ of the comprehensive plan and the large resort district is defined and you can't see it here but it shows every individual lot in the large resort District so you don't get to goine Lots you don't get to call them you don't get you don't get to to merge them every lot is separate and it has things in the comprehensive plan that say if if this lot is if you're going to affect more than three acres different things happen different thresholds are met so it's very important we discussed this at another meeting to stick to that um and then also beach access is per lot so if you do something it's per lot and then also um continual construction because you have to do continual construction per lot so you need when you do a conditional use that your conditional use is a project in each lot that you're going to you're going to start your project in that lot that you're getting a conditional use and you're going to continue with that and you can't change that because if you do the other hotels will sue and then and then you're going to all be whining that gee the court made us do it we're going to be double booked and we're going to have we're going to have multiple hotels so we must stick to our comprehensive plan be very careful and not get ourselves in trouble thank you very much thank you those were the only General okay Deborah shner if you'll please state your name and address for the record good evening Deborah shner of boasa aisle Drive in St Pete Beach I have a few things I would like to talk about so Basa my community has we've lost our parking spots for the beach when Mr Ison fenced in that lot that I guess he owns now so um the city may have to look to an alternative for us so that um we have parking for the beach um I'd like to preserve mcferson Bayou and I think district one you you've had some experience with that area in the past and to me it's pristine it's beautiful it's an animal habitat I'm shocked that it hasn't been under Environmental Protection for a city and I think it's something we need to look at I talk to a lot of tourists and they really like St Pete Beach they come here because they don't want Key West Miami or clearw and certainly they don't want Panama City and I think it's important for us to consider not only the residents when you're making decisions but the tourist who love being here sometimes some of the families have been coming for 20 25 years yearly to me that is very amazing and I will say every single one will tell me if they wanted clearw a beach that's where they would go they like our quain beautiful beach uh the other thing real quick too is um when someone is coming before you to present Resort they are not allowed and this is specific to use bellweather Three Palms point or any of the other tall buildings that were here before we even had a comprehensive plan that's stated that's a city document that states that yet each time C Council will say to you well you have the Bell weather you have three Palms point you have all of these other tall buildings well yeah that's because they've been there very very long time before we had a comprehensive plan specifically tells you not to consider that and yet for some reason Council may not know better but they bring those examples up every single time I'd also like to say that we need to preserve our beautiful beach and it was really busy today I'm glad I left a little bit earlier I never would have made it here on time so TR traffic's already starting thank you thank you that's all I have great thank you if you have a comment if you have a general audience comment item 4 a we haven't come to yet thank you y we'll call in you when we get to the specific items can I please have a motion for consent item 3A I'll move to I'll move to approve consent item 3A seconded city clerk if you'll please do a roll call commissioner res Nikki yes commissioner lorensen yes commissioner Marriott yes commissioner Philz yes mayor patrilla yes motion carries next we have action items item 4 a has been moved to 5B 4B is Bo Casa Drive construction Mye Clark where are you step forward I assume it's you yes Mr Clark my Clark Public Works director the bogus sea Drive project uh dates back to 2021 in its concept um and is as close to a complete streets project as a definition of a complete streets project kind of gets which is modifying all aspects of the road system the road Network to incorporate uh accommodations for the motoring public for The Pedestrian public for um bicyclists Landscaping storm water utilities um all those kinds of things and so it's a neighborhood approach a lot of the conversation at the two public hearings that were held um centered around the uh School traffic parents dropping their children off in the morning and retrieving them in the afternoon and using bogus sea as a speedway in order to do that and so there was a a great number of um ideas thrown out on the table as to well okay how do we how do we prevent this from happening and other than the installation of three new three-way stop sign intersections every other consideration was pretty much rejected out of hand um and what we ended up with is a road Network that does calm traffic in a standard manner by reducing the lane width to 10 feet that kind of gives you a little bit more of a feeling that you're in a smaller space and so the tendency is for people to pay closer attention and drive slower when they do that and then to install a uh sherow on in both directions which is a bicycle signalization uh striping on the on the street and there's rules about how that how that works and then the addition of a 10-ft sidewalk as a pedestrian um network connection uh there is a partner project that you'll be seeing soon the Gulf Winds Drive project and so the sidewalk in both of these projects essentially connects uh pedestrian traffic uh capability all the way from the school at 87th Avenue through the 75th Avenue intersection here all the way to Gulf Winds Drive it provides an alternative to getting out on blind Pass road or Gulf Boulevard itself uh the project uh has a $ 1.5 million State fdot Grant in it uh the process of bidding and approving approvals um uh all the permitting everything is absolutely complete and the project is before you this evening for um approval for construction thank you Mike any questions for Mike um yeah I've got a couple Mike um do you happen to have uh any you know like cross-section or or or drawings or schematics or anything of roughly what that what that's going to look like um or has that been or was that ever like the results of the design were those presented in any public in any public forum the 30% design was presented to the public for comment I believe in June of 20121 okay the 100% design was presented to the public here in Chambers um right a year or so ago I believe um I have to check my notes here but it was it was here and it was the 100% design shortly after that meeting after all the comments were Incorporated uh the design was posted on our City website and has been there for the past year um I do have with me uh the design that we can show up onto the screen if there's any particular aspect of the design that um you would be interested in seeing to discuss I mean if if you have just kind of a a sample cross-section showing you know like from you know west to east you know like path Landscaping bike lane travel Lane travel Lane bike lane you know kind of what the let me go with a landscape plan there's three parts to the design one is a landscape plan one is the pavement marking for the street striping and the other one is the the very dense actual lines lines on the paper drawing uh that most folks have a hard time reading but I do have one here um that is very representative uh let's see here let's just go to the middle of the project say uh s about 81st Avenue it's pretty standard uh 80th Avenue looks good too can we get the overhead please so what you see here um the curb on the east side of the road gets replaced but its position does not change the entire storm water system is replaced all all of the reclaimed water laterals that have not already been replaced will be replaced the street uh base gets removed and replaced and recompacted uh the storm water inlets are modified to align better with Street profiles the the slope at the intersections to drain more properly I believe there are five outfalls to the bay and all five of those outfalls have tide check valves in them uh to prevent Bay water flooding from scooting back up through the pipe onto Boga Avenue which we have seen several storms in the past year uh the lanes are 10 ft wide separated by a double yellow line so we have a lane double line a lane the um North Side the curb line has been uh taken out and for the majority of the length of the project the curb line has been moved farther east which gives us space behind the curb Lane to the right of way to install the sidewalk and uh any other as you can see here some parallel parking uh and Landscaping so the the entire length of the project is a 10-ft sidewalk Landscaping runs throughout on both sides in some CA in some areas the intersections the radi of the inter sections have all been brought into fdot standards so that our standard visibility triangles are all improved for our site distances and three three-way stops have been put in place to kind of uh continue to help slow things down but this is a this is very representative of the entire project and so compared to what's there the the Northbound travel Lane is going to basically stay where is yes the southbound travel Lane is basically going to stay where it is but it'll be moved over a little because the northbound lane is narrower correct and then next to the southbound lane there's a will be a striped off bicycle lane no no so the bicycles get pushed onto the 10-ft sidewalk well the bicyclists will have the sherro striping so that there's a requirement for motorists and bicycles to share the road if they so choose to drive bicyclist so choose to ride on the street and they can choose to ride on the uh sidewalk if they want but their but their uh rights change under Florida law and Andrew jump in here real quick if you want to if you're a bicyclist on a road then you're considered to be a motor vehicle equivalent if you are a bicycle on a sidewalk then you are considered to be a pedestrian equivalent and the rules about encountering each apply okay and I mean I and and I realize I'm you know like I'm I'm new in this position and I I know that there was two years of this stuff going on before me but but I've had a number of people in that neighborhood reach out to me that are going why are we spending $5 million for something that none of us want so so I'm just try trying to make sure everybody gets their questions answered um and so so let's let him answer that question that's a valid question you're not the only one who's received that question I mean was was the was I mean I guess I and I guess maybe maybe it's just a little bit of a history lesson for me I mean it at what point was the design was the design fully approved by by the commission at some point a year or so ago or was it just that that the the bid was put out for a design to be done and the design was done and now we're approving the construction of the design but the Design's never really been talked about I'll have to defer to the city man as to whether or not there's a requirement for the commission to actually approve a design before it uh goes out the bid yeah I'm not aware of any requirement for that and that's why you typically have the public meetings a 30% meeting the 100% meeting that you referred to uh that presents the proposed designs so if there are any issues at that point in time then uh we can direct you know our Consultants to to go in the direction that that is is given to to our staff and our uh our design team so I'm assuming that you know the 30% design the 100% design people saw something similar to what you're showing here uh as they saw exactly what we're showing here and I personally walked your predecessors through it for over an hour answering all of their questions which now we have kind of like the same question which is fine but to answer your question I don't think there's any any requirement for the commission to approve the design itself that's why you have those public input meetings yeah yeah okay and in those two meetings the majority of your predecessors did attend including the mayor um I believe I saw all of all of them maybe except for district four and so it's through those interactions um and anytime anybody has a question reaching out directly so we can address that uh Michelle Gonzalez at the time uh was heavily involved in in analyzing how we do this traffic uh pedestrian bicycle interface and my recollection is that the discussion amongst the residents and it was a fairly well both fairly well attended meetings was back and forth on everything at one point we proposed culde acts which would stop through put traffic completely and it was loved by some and roundly rejected by others and ultimately fell out of the design speed tables were presented and loved by some and roundly rejected by others and ultimately fell out in favor of the three three-way stop intersections being uh controlling devices for speeding and so the uh the comments about every aspect of than the storm water uh of this project um many emotionally driven um many misunderstood but all of them valid valid observations from the citizens on the street and others in other neighborhoods there was no consensus really so this design really represents a middle of the road so to speak compromise between all of the competing interests that uh I heard for the past two years and the the 10-ft sidewalk um was there ever a proposal for a narrower sidewalk or 10 foot sidewalks are just what we do so that's what we're doing or um yes when when um when we were in the very beginning of this design um it was desirable for the city at the point as we were planning that uh if we could get a 10- foot sidewalk uh then we would like to get that 10- foot sidewalk and uh the number of reasons for the number of reasons against kind of balance each other but um in favor of the 10-ft sidewalk we have uh two couples walking side by side dog baby carriage whatever you pass comfortably so nobody's shifting off into somebody's driveway nobody's walking behind the other you just pass pass by each other and exchange pleasantries and move on bicycles if they do choose to be on the sidewalk have the ability to uh ring ahead and move over and pass safely um it it has all it has good aspects and then the negativity that I've heard is oh my gosh why are we building a 10-ft sidewalk without any real tail to that comment other than I don't like it yeah I mean I think my my concern about the 10-ft sidewalk is that we're we're taking you know in on that street we're adding an extra six feet of impervia surface and two blocks away we're paying people to knock out their Concrete in front of their house in the city right away and and buying them trees so it's it it seems like like like we're a little bit at odds about what our what our goals are you know from one street to the next but well taking the project as its entire extent we're actually removing the about the equivalent of an entire travel Lane so the uh the amount of impervious uh landscaping material is significantly increased it's just hidden in all of the little buffers and all the Landscaping areas right so we're just we're we're adding some back and some buffers and we're taking it out of out of every block SP has some additional new Landscaping yes okay and in this project because uh everybody has a unique front yard so to speak you know how do you uh how do you account for my irrigation system you know which has a plant here and a plant there and so we just basically instructed the contractor to incorporate $1,000 per fronting property to manage irrigation and reconfigure the irrigation for the residents that have it uh so that it functions to um take care of the Landscaping that we're going to be putting in and is that is that just irrigation for those people or are we also replacing landscaping or moving landscaping or if they have trees that are right at the edge of that spot that that are going to get knocked down they're just out of luck or uh there are a few trees maybe three four that I can remember that we'll come down and we talk personally with the property owners about rest restoration uh in the Landscaping plan I I recall there's about 30 new trees 200 shrubs three 2,000 3,000 uh different smaller plants uh and then uh 30,000 40,000 square ft of new uh sod and then the irrigation system for each property is restored in order to um properly irrigate that landscaping and then there is a one-year warranty on all of that that we'll manage okay so so there will be more more trees than there were before it just won't necessarily be people won't necessarily be keeping their own trees or getting to pick what goes in their front yard well when we get down to the one ichy we always talk to the property owner there's a variety of trees that we selected one um but if there's a desire for another one we're not going to get uh too worried about that Florida Landscaping you know that's fine then the value is going to be insignificant in the project against uh you know taking care of our citizens uh but when we're taking out three trees and we're putting in 30 I'd say the net gain is pretty good yeah I mean yeah I you know I and and I I'll have to defer to to to the city manager and and to you Mike I mean I like I say I'm coming into this late in the game I feel like there's a a a number of people who are who are uh probably rightly concerned that we're spending a whole lot of money on on something that they're not real jazzed about but uh but you know there's probably 10 or 12 people that are super stoked about it and don't have any reason to write to me also so you know if if you if you guys are saying that you had public meetings and you feel like it was well attended and you know absentee owners who have rent rentals were notified and know it's happening and it's the best we can do then I I have personally worked with the Condominium Association by the recreation center to a mutual satisfaction again nothing's nothing's going to be the perfect solution there are folks citizens well well meaning that are unhappy with some aspects of this project and there are other citizens who like you said are the silent some you know silent few or many that oh yeah hey hey great let's you know let's rock on let's get this thing done um and so as I recall these meetings there was there was great conversation on on both sides of every issue and this project basically comes into the middle and so it does leave some folks who are dissatisfied with some aspect or the other and they'll come up with you know all of their just reasons why and others are not here tonight because they're okay with it yeah and is there any I mean you know as you as as as construction happens and you start getting into the the house by house what is each individual you know each individual house and each individual Property Owners scenario is there you know when that starts happening is the contractor just going to be going the city said this is what we're doing so by God this is what we're doing or is there any opportunity for a property owner to reach out to to you or to the contractor and go you know if you could make the sidewalk 6 in narrower right here it would fix all of my problems and all of your future problems with me like is is there any ability for people to do things like that or is it just this is what's happening and every project we do that touches a a private property owner's property we do exactly that so our inspector will be out there every single day he will probably meet every single permanent resident anybody who happens to be walking by and uh anybody that has a question or a concern about what the intent is or what we're going to do or has an idea along your suggestion uh we absolutely personalize uh along the property fronts we did that in pass of Grill all the way from 32nd Avenue to first um and we've done it in many many other projects that we we have worked on and we will do it with this project the citizens citizens count their concern concerns about their property front each matter and we'll do everything that we can short of something that we can't uh to accommodate uh so folks out there with brick driveways and things of that nature no your bricks don't get stolen and hauled away well you know you do get a concrete apron uh but we're not going to take your bricks and we'll line them back up again as an example I have a couple of questions too can you hear me okay yes go ahead thank you um M since you're up there and and um and I was glad to hear commissioner Maria bring up um one thing that that I was going to ask I know this design has been done um and obviously we were not on the dis when when this started um but I have a couple of questions uh one what what was the price estimate about two years ago for this project is it any different today was it at a 5 million price tag has it increase since two years ago um and on the pervious uh sidewalk um as well as Street and and Mike I know you you've kind of talked I know I've gone to some locations um that you're looking into Street that's that's kind of partial impervious right for storm water drainage um and was that ALS Al considered for sidewalks as well as streets um could that be integrated into this design I think more that discussion has happened maybe in this past year um but not sure if this is this idea um is being incorporated into this design as well as if the Landscaping I did see some of the the species that are listed um you know for for so many comments I've read from from staff about increasing uh Florida native plants is is that going to be a push for this project as well uh several questions in there I'll try to try to get to them all let's see here um using a impervious material for the sidewalk and the definition basically is that if you were to pour a cup of water onto the sidewalk the water would drain straight through it it would not pwn pool or puddle or run off it would just go right through it and the reason is is because the material IAL mix that is used is is is the fines are pulled out creating voids but we don't lose we don't compromise by losing strength and so the age the age-old U discussion amongst Public Works directors is well that's great that you remove the fines to create the voids to have a pervious surface material but that now has to be maintained and that maintenance has to take place forever which means we've got to buy a vacuum cleaner which we do not have and so so that's the balance off on that one the materials that we used uh out here in front of City Hall and on Bay Street and are planning to use on El Centro is an asphaltic uh pervious material same principle applies the voids in the asphalt or the fines in the asphalt were extracted the the binder was strengthened and that allows the the paracity of the material to you know have the water flow straight through it uh highly successful and because we do sweep streets uh we have a lesser concern about using that material in small quantities I would not want to pave an entire roadway out of that uh but for the purposes of an inverted Crown storm water management Street like Bay Street it seems to be working very very well the Landscaping was selected by a uh Florida registered Landscaping architect uh by on the staff of the design firm so I'm going to have to defer off to them that they selected the appropriate uh landscaping materials if anybody has a specific question about a a plant name that's got 26 letters all of them uh you know no no vowels I'd be happy to pass it along um let's see so landscaping prvious material and was there a third question the cost the cost um so the project started in 2021 I think we might have been in maybe $3.5 million range uh we kind of knew at that time in planning that uh that number was going to go up um how far up we did not know at that time we also did not know about the state Grant and um as uh as subsequent budgets were passed um uh decisions were made and and uh we never we never budgeted fully for the amount that ended up being in the bid but it's no surprise I think to anybody that we have cost escalation uh postco and with the situation that we have out there in the industry today um our two bids came in very very close to each other and so I don't uh I don't think that um there's any disparity there uh if the bids were a million5 apart I'd be kind of scratching my head as the why but because they were not I think they're fairly consistent uh in their materials pricing what what's the contingency set for this project I'm not sure if that was on the agenda memo um what was the question what's the contingency set I do not have the agenda memo in front of me the agenda memo that we submitted for as part of the packet fin exception [Music] desk separately Bud for contingency it does not appear that we separately budgeted for a contingency now with all the you know I know there's a lot going on on that particular Street I mean I see it often when I drive through there when there's um water um rean water you know brakes I mean got I I don't know how many I can count with more than one hand that are broken in less than a year down that street so you know I would foresee there's going to be issues as this is being constructed once the street surfac is taken off and we have a temporary surface on there just compacted material um the reclaimed water laterals will be systematically replaced every single one of them and so that'll happen with utility work so as uh the storm water pipes are going in the inlets are being set the curb lines are being uh set the reclaim water lateral lines are also being uh replaced and so there's going to be a a lot of a lot of excavation a lot of digging uh block by block and to to that point I just want to also that uh commissioner Mar I kind of alluded to it also and it's the personal tou and so I just want to make sure that everybody understands that as we're digging along and you know making holes in your in front of your house and all those kinds of things uh yes it's going to be interruptive but you are always going to have a place to park you will always be able to get into your driveway except for when we're replacing it the mail is going to be delivered Amazon delivers and you can order pizza so um all that takes place on a day-to-day basis it's very fluid it moves moves uh I won't tell you that there's not going to be a hiccup out there uh in the course of a year and a half of construction but by and large we're pretty good at taking care of everybody's needs making sure that we know who the uh who our disabled folks are and what their special needs are we work with the fire department on those kinds of things also uh so we we we pay particular attention to our citizens when we're doing something in front of their house Mr Mayor I've got three real quick ones that I think can afford you short answers so might help you out a is this habitual problem Road like pass the grill way flooding I believe the residents will tell you that it is beginning to flood more often than not okay the the 5.4 million and then you said a 1.5 million matching Grant so is this really like a $7 million project or are we subtracting 1.5 from the 5.4 million no as you see the funding lineup that's precisely that's precisely it that which one which one 1.5 was not a matching Grant okay so what are we paying 4 million okay oh yeah yeah so that that the grand total less 1.5 is City okay so we're paying four and a halfish okay um and in cost per mile or whatever metric you use for doing these kind of things I mean it just seems really high to me the price but I'm not saying I'm against it is this kind of in line with what we typically do and we envision for the rest of the city at this kind of cost or this this is a little high because most uh most Road networks will not have the reclaimed water uh aspect to it so that's a half a million right there so and then um we're installing tie check valves but that's not a huge number um cost escalations recently it it is a it is a big number um but it is a it is an approach that is consistent since I've been here with all of the roads that we've reconstructed pass Grill now this one Gulf w next thank you just let me add one thing to that the storm water component of this is 1.1 million just for the storm water how regarding the grant how and when when is that delivered to the city well the grant uh is approved so it's uh it's cash sitting at the Florida Department of Transportation and then we will draw again it percentage wise as we complete the project through time okay thank you so I was at those Community meetings and um the question that always comes up is why are we doing more than What the residents are asking us right so the resident said virtually all the ones I spoke to I'm sure there's a few that either don't care or like it as it is um but overwhelmingly the comments were why am I getting 10ft sidewalks why are we narrowing the road why are we getting rid of the bike Lanes when all we ever want is can you pave the road so it's not so bad um I mean I'm I'm that road is abysmal it's in fact I'm pretty sure I did a video about that road in particular just on it own that's how bad it is so does it need to be redone resurfaced do we need to reclaim water lines done absolutely right there's no question about that um I do take objection to the 10 foot sidewalks I think Mr Sounders your prevor had an some kind of unhealthy obsession with 10-ft sidewalks um you can certainly understand them in Gulf Boulevard where you have droves of people walking up and down especially this time of the year this week next week and so on but that's not the same case in on boaa Drive uh I you at the last meeting we talked extensively about property rights and here we are you know and while it is an easan that the city technically is entitled to at the same time there's 40 50 homes we're going to be taking a giant chunk of their sidew walk out um and for what purpose I don't know because in my estimation putting the bikes with the cars without a bike lane that doesn't make it safer for either the cars or the bikes certainly not the bicyclist putting the bicyclist on a shared Road or shared you know walkway with the pedestrians well that doesn't make it any safer for pedestrians or the bicyclist either and you know everything that I've heard from residences can you please pave the road cuz it's awful can you fix the reclaimed water and can you patch our sidewalk BLS the few spots that are necessary rather than going in tearing up everybody's driveway for an entire mile taking 10 ft of everyone's property and it was one property loan that I looked at that we're removing at least three or four mature trees so when we're saying that we're removing four trees on the entire Road I'm not sure that's entirely accurate so I'm not I'm not saying you're misrepresenting but maybe don't remember the entirety of of all of it because I've seen single properties that exceed or match the amount that you said in the number of trees that mature trees that we're removing um the other part is you know $55 million that's you know 7% of our City's annual budget you know the question I have is and I had this I POS this question to to the city manager is if we just did what we asked what the residents asked us to do patch you know repave the road fix the sidewalks where necessary leave us leave the bike Lanes loan leave the width of the load of own put stop signs if you need to put in speed tables if you need to what would that cost I can't imagine it'll still be$ 5.5 million do you wish to address the storm water issues well that's being taken from the storm water budget itself so we're that's already allocated from the storm water fund right then you mention that was half a million 1.5 1.5 okay and that's allocated from the storm water yes it is okay so again if we just do Paving and fix the things that we need to fix what does that look like well that's a great question your honor and um I would be a fool to try to answer that off the top of my head but I won't argue that it would be less right um again I was at those meetings and I can tell you from having attended those meetings and looked at the individual plans overall the plan didn't change any I mean minor tweaks here and there between 30 and 100% and pretty much what we received from the consultant was what we told him that we wanted whoever it was at the time whether it was Michelle or somebody else said here's the brief for what we want and that's exactly what they gave us we told them complete streets they said here's a complete Street they didn't go out and say okay well what does what does the community want no they said well here's our brief and based on this brief we're going to give you exactly what you briefed us that you want to hear back from us and they do this every single time because if they didn't we wouldn't hire them again right so I can't sit here in good conscience one nobody here has any renderings so we're not even sure what we're approving right at the very least that should have been included I couldn't find them anywhere in the city website either looking for them I know that they're for Gulf WIS drive for example trying to find all the 30% 60 90% 100% uh none of those were available so I'm I'm really apprehensive about making a four $4 million decision here5 A5 million doll decision here without having all the details first of all second of all they're proving something that is such a vast number and based on the resident feedback that we had is nobody seems to want this project and then the last part is I am a serious concerned here about the properties of the individuals that are going to be impacted because there's going to be vast numbers you know there's there's a large number of homes that are going to be severely impacted in their driveways I looked at some homes where once you take that 10 feet there's not enough room left on the driveway to park a car now you might get yourself a nice smart car and you can fit that and maybe you get yourself a golf cart like me you can fit that but your car can no longer fit on the driveway right so just because we can doesn't mean that we should well your honor if I might um I I serve as the city's engineer and uh there is no compelling reason that you have to approve this project tonight and if there is compelling reason and that's what I'm hearing as you are hearing it from your constituents and my neighbors that we would like to do a little bit of uh maneuvering on the uh west side of this project uh in terms of what the sidewalk looks like and how much the property take is and all of those kinds of things I believe that that engineering solution is really not that complicated um I mentioned the storm water in my question to you earlier because that does set a lot of the profile uh of the U project and it's very very difficult to move storm water it is not very difficult to move this the surface above it and what side is the storm water on yeah it largely is on the uh west side and then crosses to the east in outfall structures okay so if we were to leave the road width as is today let me let me jump in please give hypothetical right okay the roadway width is the only traffic calming uh measure that we we have other than the three stop signs but it doesn't mean that we can't go down that pathway I just want to make that point sure I'm simply saying if we leave the road with as is today right how does that impact the storm water the storm water and the design moved with the West curb line movement as we brought everything towards the east so if we didn't change it then we wouldn't have to change a storm water location we would be replacing a lot of it in situ okay would that reduce the cost no it probably would stay very close to the same because we're still digging the pipe up and putting new pipe in the ground that pipe has seen its best days and those inlets are equally as distressed okay and if we left the road at the current with what would the bike Lanes look like well if we would like to get a bike lane in and do it in a way that everybody that has contacted me is advocating for which is separation of church and state so to speak by a hard physical structure uh whether or not those are the little knockdown uh poles that you see some folks use or an actual curb itself or uh my favorite is an actual 3 to four foot wide medium uh median of planted material um the roadway width my opinion generally speaking is that it probably could accommodate all of that um and if if I mean if we're if we would like to go back and do a little engineering I love engineering thank God for people like you yeah I again my my concern is twofold one the design doesn't seem to be particularly popular I've not received a single favorable response from anyone over the last year um and then the cost is immense well your honor if you want to throw a challenge on the table for me to change that to make it uh more likely that most of the people if not all would would like a different design and then we could drive that cost down by maybe a million bucks uh I would love to take that challenge on where is the threshold for the do fund is there a threshold that says if you don't do this then you don't get the fund if you don't spend this much you don't get the funds now there's a couple of thresholds in there you hit on both of them actually one is time they give you money in a fiscal year that was appropriated for the expense in that fiscal year for the purpose of which it was appropriated for uh and the other is uh the design itself which is approved by the fdot they've been our partner all through the process and um we would be we would go back and let them know that uh we would like to do a little bit more engineering um and um I I I hope that their response would be that that sounds good uh let's talk about uh Grant extensions and let's talk about whether or not the additional design cost would be allowable to be used by that Grant uh both items I think have been done in the past so there there's a little bit of um we we've got to talk to the dot about that I I don't think they would unjustly just rip the $1.5 million away from us uh because I think what we would be asking of them is perfectly reasonable um and makes a lot sense okay questions comments yeah my question would be is it in the realm of possibility if with with an attempt to try to save money taking more time to lose the $1.5 million Grant it could come to that conversation where the amount of money we save would offset the loss of the Grant and then we just basically break even and it would be a city- funded project which is the same as Gulf Winds Drive and is there a specific date like for that grant money uh the grant money has an expiration tag on it I'm I'm not exactly sure what it is I believe it's I may be wrong on the month but it's either May or June of next year but it's not uncommon to get extensions or reallocations like uh Mr Clark said it's usually they budgeted in their fiscal year but if it isn't used it's I know I've gotten extensions before or reappropriations for the next fiscal year uh so I think there's a probably a pretty good chance we could still get Grant funds if we were not able to to construct by by the deadline of I think it's June of next year so I think the grant money or some grant money would be there for us that'd be my comment or concern on it and then I guess my my other question would be if not a 10 foot sidewalk which by the way I think there are some positives to a 10-ft sidewalk um but if not that then what what would the sidewalks look like they be toally the reason for the 10 foot sidewalk is is because they're removing the current bike lanes and they're narrowing boaa and that design and so they're reducing the the width of the road they're widening the sidewalk and then by default all the bikers are going to go off that's what happens right it's just not shared roads whatever it is is not is not safe as an avid biker I can tell you that the amount of accidents I've had on shared roads in fact the only time I've had accident has been on shared roads um so that's the reason for the 10ft side the reason the whole project width stays about the same is just that we're widening the sidewalks to the East and then we're narrowing the east side of bokaa Drive the West curb stays the same the the current sidewalks are about four feet wide yeah right yeah I understand that but if we're not widening the sidewalk then what what are the plans for improving the sidewalk well if we didn't narrow the road we wouldn't have to widen the sidewalks the reason for the widening I understand that but what improvements would be made to the sidewalks like I don't I don't walk on that road personally too much but on on golf WIS drive that sidewalks terrible I mean try walking a baby and a dog and your spouse and Crossing another dog on that sidewalk you know so there's some positives to a 10-ft sidewalk but I get I get the opposition to it losing the bike lane I get that too but my question is if you're putting in a 10t sidewalk you're improving the surface of the sidewalk so if we're if that's not happening then what are the improve what would the improvements be to the sidewalk be completely torn up and repaved still 4 feet wide concrete is an interesting uh thing it's you either replace it or you leave it alone I mean if it's broken the only thing you can do with concrete replace it so with the sidewalk uh is in fairly decent shape for its age and we don't mind having 4 foot sidewalks exactly where they are then we would not touch it if the sidewalk is significantly deteriorated and we'd look at it and say this isn't going to last 10 years then we pull the slabs up and replace the slabs uh in kind uh the 10 ft can go to 6 feet it could go to 5 feet it can stay at 4 feet um if you look at neighborhood standards uh I mean we all grew up as kids in neighborhoods with or without sidewalks but I would bet that in most residential neighborhoods back in the day 50s and 60s and 70s they're 4 feet they're four feet in my neighborhood they're four feet in most neighborhoods in the city where they exist the idea for the 10-footer was driven I think in a large part uh by the folks who are advocating for it uh because we're we're providing this connectivity and and hoping that more folks would use it and stay off of blind pass in Gul way G Gulf Boulevard because they have this nice PA nice pathway now all the way from 87th to Gulf Winds Drive so it's it's that it's that alternative alternative uh mode of transportation throughput um but as the mayor points out uh this is a neighborhood street that we are modifying and so the voices of the neighbors that live there uh as brought forth through you all should drive the train and then my other question that you brought up um before was you mentioned if you I forget the wording you Ed but if if you're a bicyclist on the road different rules apply than if you're a Bic bicyclist on the sidewalk my understanding of Florida law is that if you are a bicyclist on a street you are considered a moving vehicle and you have to act as such if you are a bicyclist on a sidewalk you are considered a pedestrian and you should act as such I get the part about being on the road but I'm I don't get the part about being a pedestrian on the sidewalk if you're it was a bit of a heads scratcher for me too but um when I you know a couple of hours ago I was just looking at Florida statute and that's what it said on like 10 websites I hit okay Andrew for sure on the streets when you're on the street you're basically a vehicle you have to obey you go with traffic not against traffic stop at stop signs stop at stop lights um get back to the sidewalk issue they called sidewalks for a reason walk you know so uh I I I would be very much in favor of of you know pausing or redirecting or you know doing a little bit of a redesign I think I think what the mayor said is is very true that you know there's a number of houses in that on that street where if you you know on the on the west side of the street with the current plan I think most of them are going to be Cav a sidewalk back as far as the city RightWay goes into their yard and I think that does limit a lot I mean I Envision eight months from now or a year and a half from now all of a sudden the city code enforcement portal will be full of people getting code enforcement violations for the bumper of their truck hanging over the bike path and that seems like a silly a silly situation to create for ourselves um along with you know I was out there the other day and there were Landscaping trucks parked in the in the travel Lane to get to houses on the on the east side of the street and now the road's going to be even narrower and you're you know it it it it it seems like maybe not quite the right design for that exact neighborhood um and so if there is a way to to do a little redesign I think that would be pretty wise at this point while we still can I'm in line with uh you as well commissioner marott and the mayor and I think I could suggest that maybe we're at the point where we either give them a redirect or maybe we start thinking about a motion here we haven't had audience comments yet that's a good point let's do that let's Mike thank you and then city clerk if there are any on any audience comments I would like to leave uh with one observation not leaving just you're just taking the seat we'll call you back I I think it's important to note that uh if we go back to uh engineering then I will be bringing to you a task order for that cost thank you sir it will be north of $100,000 city clerk do we have any audience comments please John kurman so please state your name and address for for the record um John kman be here underway uh I won't be a dead horse but um the ebikes are ille can you zoom in a bit more on that ebikes are illegal on the sidewalks in St b beach so that's something to consider even if you're pedaling them I think that law should be changed but we have to consider it um and um this is a study uh 20 years ago when people started thinking about sharrows which I didn't even know what a sharrow was when when people said oh we're going to do a sharrow I'm like oh we're going to have sharrow markings so I don't know that everybody even realized that a sharrow was basically meaning the bikes were going to be on the on the regular Lanes uh and they said you know they've just learned that shows are ineffective at improving cyclist safety I don't want to beat a dead horse but we still have Gulf Winds coming down the road and that whole project is sharrows too um and um uh it's this article just came out in 20 20123 it's been more than 20 years it's an old idea that failed but this is the this is this is 81st Avenue up on the right and then here's another view of it and then I went into into Google Earth so the overall roadway is 30 feet wide and if you put the two together you can sort of see exactly what was happening it was basically an mination of the bike lane um and you know if the goal was traffic calming I don't want to be the guy calming traffic on my bike um that was sort of my message uh and then here's over the Donar and you can see that you know cars mess up and we try to get off of Gulf Boulevard when we can and it's B it's it's streets like BGA drive and gulf winds that we seek refuge and ride our bikes on when we can and so it's really important that we don't mess up and and and and you know keep us from that exclusive Lane and remember there's a law that says you know you want to be three feet cars need to be three feet from the bikes and so having wide Lanes is important having wide bike Lanes I still think they should just get a wide can of paint widen the bike lanes and call it a day you want to narrow the car Lanes just widen the bike lanes and and and and take that approach the overarching issue should just be just you know make sure you always have a 5 foot Max minimum bike lane or I looked up Vision zero and vision zero uh there's an actual article uh or a book on how you should do bike Lanes with vision zero and uh here are some suggestions so there's some pictures in this book um that came out um of some of the creative ways you could do either two directional bike Lanes or one directional bike lane um you maybe put them on on side and and these coexist with Park cars and with driveways and with uh people even you know in wheelchairs being able to get across so I think we've got a great opportunity moving forward you know now that if you guys vote no uh to come up with a new plan so thank you very much thank you sir that was the only one for that item Deborah shner if you please state your name and address for the record I will thank you Deborah shechner basa ale Drive in St P Beach so I was on the transportation board for the county for several years this was discussed back then bike lanes were very very important in our discussion and we even had a member who I believe headed a bicyclist organization because so many people were getting hurt in those Lanes so Safe Streets pelis Vision zero forward pelis so for forward pelis they had five E education meeing meetings and other things engineering enforcement emergency response and Equity Equity meant Walkers bicycles cars public transportation should have a place in the road you should never ever take away bike Lanes that's not part of the plan bikes and pedestrians on a side walk is dangerous and for the biker it's really pretty uncomfortable because pretty much you have to walk your bicycle unless it's you know very early in the morning so if you have an RV and it's 8 feet wide or so you'll have a foot on this side and a foot on this side to travel down that road and I almost think a 10-ft road does not make sense at all but I think that bike lanes are very important and if you take away the bike lanes and I think perhaps in other areas they're talking about taking away the bike lanes and putting in parking no way does any of this go to Safe Streets pelis nor does it go to forward pelis nor does it go to the spirit of what we talked about all those years ago because it's very important to keep everybody safe and let's get back to equity Walkers and bicyclists cars public transportation and you can also add scooters and a few other things in there that we didn't even think about back then as being something people would pick up and use so I would say that we do need to re-engineer this and pretty much going back to when we had Mr Ray as our city manager and he had a meeting open up to the public they didn't want the 10ft side books back then so I don't don't know where all this is coming they want safer streets I will admit to that and a safer place for the kids to walk thank you thank you that is all thank you so if we were to instruct the city staff to come back with uh with redesign we should we would need to be able to give them some direction as to what kind of redesign we have in mind if that's the direction that we want to go my initial thoughts would be something along the lines of maintaining the road width as is with bike lanes and the same with the side same with the sidewalk is to maintain the width of the sidewalk maybe look at 5 ft but really anything more than that wouldn't be necessary if we're not putting bikes on the uh on the sidewalk can you clarify when you say maintain the road so right now Mike what is the width of the road right now basa drive is it 30 feet I I believe you're correct but um if I might uh trying to engineer a specifics on the dis might be a bit of a challenge and the the things that we don't know about what you're going to ask the engineering to do might pop up and then we get all into a tangle I think I understand the general direction uh of where the conversation has gone and where we've landed I understand that the the the width of the sidewalk is a concern and it's not 10 ft I understand that we uh are desirable of a safe bicycling Lane option in the in the roadway um I I have some con uh some thoughts about how to pull all that together so if you if you were to just give the uh staff some general direction as to incorporate these concepts of uh smaller sidewalk a bicycle lanee addition a safe mobility and micro mobility and traffic calming um then I think we can uh come back perhaps with a couple of uh General General renderings uh that uh we might be able to review together um and then then more specifically take the engineering from there I guess my question was if the street is 30 ft wide and we're allocating 10 foot per directional travel so per Lane that leaves us with 5et on either side for bike Lanes is that within the range that do recommends for bicycle Lanes uh I I'll I guess the best I can answer is that 5 feet sounds like it's reasonable I don't know the if I think FD is three um so certainly five is better U but there are all As as Mr kurman showed you there are a lot of opportunities here about the configuration of that lane is it one on each side is it two on one side is it next to you know one is is the East Side better than the West Side uh is it protected in in the manner that I described before by a curb or by some pards or by some Landscaping um having having the road having the right of way width as the paint pallet allows us to bring you some ideas uh along the concepts that have been discussed tonight me contention is the rideway rideway width is 60 ft I understand so that's why I'm trying to say if we stay within the lanes right figuratively you know can we do what seems to be the you know can can we do two lanes and two bike Lanes within 30 ft so that we're not taking any more RightWay or or I guess the other way to word the question would be to say that if you if you look at the the westernmost boundary of the current sidewalk if you if you took that to the Eastern curb is that enough space to do something reasonable with so that we're not encroaching further into people's rways I think that statement is probably a very good guideline to go by do not encroach farther past the existing sidewalk into people's properties and then use the existing roadway withd to its best benefit um and then the rest of what's left between the sidewalk and the curb uh accommodates um the the uh utilities that we need to stuff in there and and so I like that and I and I appreciate the roadway WID and that gives us some ability to bring you back uh a design concept that I think uh would get us really close and then we can tweak it from there I've got three points on it my biggest concern is the grant money and losing that if we take more time or not getting all of it so that's that's one of them if that is even a possibility um the other is by not doing the 10- foot sidewalks are we not going to improve the sidewalks at all that would be my other concern and then the other point is the raised intersections on Golf Boulevard north of 75th in my opinion I think those do a good job of slowing down traffic old Gulf Boulevard is a unique street that those raised intersections seem to do what they've been designed to do and I've driven up and down hundreds of times and I never hit more than 15 18 miles an hour um so can those come back you know we can put them anywhere we want um it's just asphalt with some storm water consideration but um I think with the two generalities that you have uh brought forth uh in a Loosely worded set of guidelines you know bring bring us back uh something along these lines don't go past the sidewalk use the roadway with for its purpose and the sidewalk I I'm probably going to lean towards replacing the whole thing uh what's the a lot of the property owners forget is you get new driveway aprons and uh that's that's a benefit for the property owners but that's the connectivity to the street my suggestion thank you thank you Mike okay so are we in favor of sending this back to City staff for redesign yes yep are just Sor couldn't hear what you said I asked if we're in favor of sending this back to the city staff for redesign yes city manager make sure I understand I mean I think we're I think we've heard very clearly the issues and I think we've got good direction on that uh and when you say come back with the redesign I think probably or concept what you mean is come back with some Concepts of Meeting those goals that we've heard tonight we can certainly do okay thank you thank you great mayor could add one one thing on that when they come back with the redesign certainly is it okay go ahead um besides what what the commission um on the DI everyone has been speaking to when the design comes back could could we also have um the comments the majority comments of of the meetings from the community um that were done so that we could have a clear understanding of what the majority of the people who live in that Community um because I'm I don't just I want to take into consideration the emails I just received but we know there's been meetings so what the majority of the residents in that area were looking at was it um traffic calming was it um large you know 10t sidewalks was it keep the same width now was it two bike Lanes was it one bike lane like just so that we have a good understanding of what the majority of the people who live there were looking for plus the recommendations that we are we are all alluding to um in this meeting if those comments are available we can certainly provide them to you you know I don't know what type of meeting that was in so I don't know if we had written comment cards or if there were minutes that would capture that but if those comments are available we'll certainly make them available to the commission certainly and I mean there's nothing preventing us from there say have another town hall meeting you know to to look at those or just present them at a commission meeting and then have the public be able to okay send in comments okay so um for 4B we are recommending that this go back to the city staff for uh for a new design draft okay thank [Applause] you next we have item 4 C fourth Sixth and sth Avenue Dune walkover Replacements is this mic again I told you not to go far hurricane idalia ripped across the face of passag Grill as it did a lot of places and took with it uh substantial damage to the walkovers the walkovers were quickly demolished and removed as a public safety hazard and uh as the FEMA inspection team has come in and done their inspections done their due diligence we uh uh city engineer Brett Warner is leading the efforts on this one um we are approved to replace the uh walkovers at third fifth and Seventh Avenue they will be pretty much straight forward straight up straight down um some steps or ramps depending on the slope and the uh top of the walks uh will be 3 ft above the top of the Dune by Florida Fish and Wildlife St standards this is a 7525 uh 75% FEMA 25% City match thank you any questions for Mike ju just a quick one I it's funny when I look at the next item it's only 61,000 and change to do an entire seaw wall at one Avenue and then when you divide these three Dune walkovers it it's about 60,000 and it just seems like this would be a lot easier and more economical job to put in pilings and woodwork but I'm sure you got multiple bids right we're not out to bid yet for the walkovers it seems like it's a very high price so you got multiple bids on that one and well we're not we're not out to bid on this on the on the Crossovers oh you didn't oh this is a female approval oh so we're not paying this yes well so um we are using our job order contract which is a design construct uh type of mechanism to speed things up and so um what you're seeing here tonight for the approval is the approval of that process for the process and the construction this is the approval for the construction of those at 10 yeah 183,000 which is about 60,000 I think the question is why why would a crossover cost the same as the seaw wall basically well the crossover is all wood and pilings pilings don't cost much to drill in wood deck's not that that expensive so there's no concrete here um so it it's what the material costs are what they are all right I think you're missing my point but that's okay um I apologize all right so we so we just went with a contract somebody we always use to do this work this didn't require multiple bids you want to explain the job order uh so the the job order contract it's a pellis county contract uh that is competitively bid and they actually selected four vendors with a with a with a workload capacity of $4 million a piece we have selected one of those four to piggy back back off of cadc we have worked with them multiple times in the past and the process is uh they do the inspection of the work that we're asking them to do they come up with the design from the design they come up with the construction cost and from that we move forward and so the value of this methodology is we're probably saving six months of time instead of a designed bid build and we're saving money because we're not going to a full design with specifications in the bid package because it's all integral to the same company and Mike could you explain how what they submit to you as far as their subs that they use material they use how yall uh see those numbers yes we see those numbers and what's called a it's it's a it's a computer program called gordian and there are literally 20,000 different line items for a vertical Construction in this program everything down from bolts and nuts to piles to sidewalks to contract or concrete to Asphalt to Windows Doors everything and they're all bid on quantity so if you want 20 piles 30 feet deep then that pile has a price and if you want to put a wood deck on that's 6 feet wide and and 6 feet long that that quantity has a price and so basically it's a building block based off of the design you take the takeoff of the materials uh the value of the contractor's efforts is in in inside that also and that's how you come up with your uh construction number I got it thank you so very similar to our large pipe contract for our sanitary sewer repairs a stick of 20 foot pipe cost you know 6 feet deep cost X numbers of dollars we don't have to negotiate that twice thank you Mike any further questions for Mike city clerk do we have any audience comments John kurman if you please state your name and address for the record John kman on way I actually would first like to talk um as a beach Steward however I'm not representing the um other members because I have not spoken to the other Beach stewards but I'm speaking as a beach Steward because the beach stewardship committee uh is responsible for two things ongoing Beach nourishment which is not about and also preservation and maintenance of the public beaches uh and make recommend the city commission regarding these matters um and so in that regard I I just think I should speak and one of the things that we are doing is formalizing that process um we're working with Mr McConnell on on trying to formalize that uh for going forward where we would be you know consulted on such matters um one of the things that I wanted to to pass along is that we have uh had comments uh at prior meetings uh from people that they would like to see more handicapped access and I noticed in this plan that there's steps on each ends and I just thought that maybe if there could be ramps on each end that that might be something that might be more accommodating I'm not familiar with the Ada regulations but I just thought that um if there could be ramps I also realized that you know one end might be lower than the other this might be you know artistic license that it looks even at both ends uh I also just couldn't tell from the specs um you know if this was an exact rendition or not or you know it's at 105 ft um and so I wasn't sure I happened to have personally taken pictures in November of 2022 and you know saw the heights of them at that point um let let me switch now a minute and a half in to now just speaking for myself uh speaking for myself um I just would like to say that you know I see that the after erosion and I know it erods a lot in this area um that there was a step down at the end so my question would be do we want to also specify that maybe at the far end it should be buried into the sand a certain number of feet in anticipation of erosion um that might occur and then uh at the other this is another one of them uh you know how far should it embed and then the other thing I happen to notice is that these uh pilings are only being hammered in 5T there's no footings or anything like that and then piggybacking on what commissioner Lorenzen said as I think about that you know this is 105 foot long deck four you know four feet wide uh you know normally the expense in a deck is you know you're getting your footings and you know concrete you know footings you know inspected and all that kind of thing this is 5 foot pilings you know 5 foot deep pilings um $60,000 I don't know maybe maybe you do want to go to bid I mean what's it really going to cost you to go to bid I don't know but anyway that's whatever thank you very much thank you sir that was the only one okay ramps is that ramps is that do we have uh it'd be a complete redesign do we have access uh we do have other access points okay 22 okay any further questions do we have a motion uh I'll move to approve the price proposals under the pelis County job order Contracting contract with cadc construction company in the amount of $183,500 for fourth 6th and 7th Avenue Dune walkover Replacements I'll second City CL CL if you please to a vice mayor Lorenzen yes commissioner Marriott yes commissioner Philz yes commissioner res Nikki yeah mayor patrilla yes motion carries thank you Mike item 4D 29th Avenue Avenue 29th Avenue seaw wall the 29th Avenue seaw wall I believe it's a 50 foot rway that the city has significant cap damage so significant erad behind the seaw wall itself the panels on the front of it all failed and so we basically have a replacement um and it's uh has been driven at the request of the citizen uh on pasc way rightly so because it has been over topped in three of the last three hurricanes and and it has contributed to the flooding of pasir way significantly it is not the only seaw wall on pass way that was over topped but we have to start someplace and this is as good a place as any so uh this is one of our nicer projects I'm looking forward to it and and it will definitely help as we move forward into to the future of our flood protection any questions for Mike do we have any audience comments I don't see any on this item okay do we have a motion I'll make a motion to approve the services agreement with Villa Forte Construction in the amount of 6195 for 29th Avenue wall and cap replacement and extension I'll second city clerk you feel please to a roll call commissioner Marriott yes commissioner Philz yes commissioner asiki yes vice mayor Lorenzen yes mayor patrilla yes motion carries thank you next we have item 5A discussion for possible commission dates in June July and August of this year so we all have a mayor could I just make one quick point I think we've got a lot of folks that have been sitting here um waiting to talk about the um the um am I looking at here the boat ramp um any thought into doing that and then saving our business for last if somebody would like a motion to switch those two items I'd like to make a motion to switch uh five a and 5B around second see cler if you please do a roll call commissioner Philz yes commissioner as Nikki yes vice mayor Lorenzen yes commissioner Marriott yes mayor patrilla yes motion carries Mike you're up both ramp it's been real quiet around the bo ramp this week the Don CeSar boat ramp has been uh on our radar screen as a a uh a flooding challenge uh for many years and um as we have been looking at that it has specifically not been addressed in two previous Don CeSar neighborhood uh flood studies and the reason is is because of the uniqueness of that one particular location it's a boat ramp an active boat ramp with some very challenging topog graic aspects to it and so as we were looking at this the Florida boating Grant came up and the way the Florida boating Grant works is it's a three-step process in consecutive years the first step is uh you ask yourself Is it feasible to build a boat ramp in a location that's that's the Is it feasible and then what are some of the aspects of that feasibility if it is feasible and you like it then we can request a grant for design for a boat ramp in that location and then following the design we request a construction Grant to build the boat ramp so it's one year two year three year so we are uh in the first phase feasibility study and as we scoped the feasibility study with the state we said we believe that we have two possible Alternatives one is the current location of the boat ramp and two is at the turn of the cabillo Avenue uh um road that thing area there a third alternative was to aband in the boat ramp um in all discussions that I was a part of that was not very favorably received uh a fourth alternative would be to somehow Nest it up underneath or next to the the Bayway bridge system the challenges there uh with accessibility are just so were so so much that I just thought you know this is a stretch uh so we kind of discarded that one uh another alternative was to double up at Egan Park and the response was well what does that do for all of us down here at the South half of the of the city you got two up at the North so I got to spend an hour getting back to where I was to begin with so no I don't like that either so the viability the the feasibility of these two locations kind of bubbled up and said okay here we are as I look around the land perimeter of our island in the South I'll be dog on if I can come up with another location but if anybody else has one I I would love to know about it but these are the two locations that were incorporated into the state Grant study you have uh in the package um the fees feasibility what does it kind of look like how far out do we have to reach what are the permits uh you know what are the considerations environmentally what are the considerations with utilities what are the considerations with parking what are the considerations with Road eress uh all the basic uh engineering considerations and environmental considerations are kind of touched and contained in the feasibility study so the results are yes it is feasible to rebuild the boat ramp exactly where it is and you have the challenges associated with that and the cost associated with that and yes it is feasible to put the boat ramp in in the other location at the turn of the cillo Avenue and you have the same the same analysis of the utilities and the parking and the environmental considerations and all of that um and so as I read the report and I kind of take a look at um our posture for uh defens of measures against future sea level rise and flooding uh and the use of the adjacent areas and the con activity around East maritana uh in the Don cazar and pass of Grill uh the roads the road network uh are our sea level or our sea wall cap elevation of 5 ft nabd 88 as I Look To The Future as to what's going to you know what we got to do in there in order to protect our citizens from that uh that that flooding that's encroaching into the neighborhood um my staff recommendation is that we uh take a hard look at the Cabo Avenue location the challenges associated with the existing location as we view uh future flood protection and the and the usage of a boat ramp and what it takes in the road Network to do that I think are significantly more difficult um and and quite frankly unnecessary the cabillo ramp is much easier in the constructability operability maintainability realm uh and the environmental considerations are almost exactly the same so tonight before you it's both locations are feasible which one do we believe is more advantageous for the city now and into the distant future and I and I have as I have said considering the challenges at the existing boat ramp location with protecting against future floods and tying into the rest of the neighborhood I think the cabillo Avenue from an operability maintainability constructibility standpoint is the better choice I didn't see the I don't think they're labeled that has that looks like you've got both possible options with a cost estimate one is almost a million one's 1.25 which one's which the more expensive one I I believe is the existing location it's number one let me check I could be exactly wrong am I not reading it correctly is that I think the 1.25 is the current location that's correct okay I might not page 18 hey you can look on page 18 of of the uh visibility and it has the two two listed there I was looking at 90 something yeah okay so uh on the left the 1.25 is the Donar ramp current location and on the right hand side is the alternative to cabillo location why is it cheaper to just move the whole thing a lot of it I think has to do with the utilities um and the elevations that we have to meet in the road Network and the other storm water aspects associated with it there's the existing location has a tremendous amount of concrete and that all has to come out in order to meet slope requirements for the boat launch and elevation requirements for flood protection I mean we're talking we're talking about a lot of concrete here MH and so if if the boat ramp moves we don't have to take all that concrete out of the existing boat ramp if it does not move as we move forward with what to do at that boat ramp location uh we would be considering it its removal and incorporation as a flood control structure and so we well may not have to remove much or or much at all of the concrete that currently exists the elevations we can modify those in a storm water approach we're heading to pump stations anyways in in the distant future and so uh I don't think that a lot of what currently exists would have to come out we would just have to add more to it and what that looks like we would bring to you in another in a separate design all by itself I'd like to add one comment to that we were talking about the the difference in the cost there with ad Don CeSar location being more expensive but these cost estimates do not take in for to account the cost if we move it to cabillo the cost of doing something there at where the old rant that would be an additional cost it's not included in these figures so just need to keep that in mind like building seaw wall demoing all that right whatever you did it would be an additional cost to yeah so the the the simplest thing to do would be to close the existing ramp and make it not usable so people aren't tempted uh for minimal cost and then incorporate what it looks like for the future flood protection into a design by itself I've got a lot of questions and points to make but if I understand what we've agreed on earlier we're going to move this action item to a a date to be determined correct yes okay so I'm probably going to withhold all my questions anding a community meeting I think you suggest exactly so that that's my proposal for uh is probably to hold the town hall of some sort and I think it might be a good thing to be a joint one with District three and District Four Commissioners commissioner res Nikki if you if you're open to that idea and that way we can kind of hear from both sides because there going to be two sides of opinions absolutely on this I can I've already heard most of them which is a good thing um so that's what I would recommend and that way I'm not going to tie up with all my questions and thoughts tonight I have no engineering objection whatsoever I would just remind you that we would set the entire um the entire program back one year and we will take on another year of flooding I the other hand that boat ramp's been there like 70 years so it's not the boat ramp itself it's what uh it it allows the flooding to do for one more year so I I think we'll survive can you explain what you mean by it sets the whole thing back by year uh the grant window for the design phase where you to make a decision today is the 20th of this month what is the design window it it closes on the 20th of March my understanding yes is available again next year so I I don't feel any pressure in trying to make this decision right now I I you know I'm very passionate about this one um even if this closes on March 20th there is a possibility of next year having other funding correct there's always a possibility but you just left your neighborhood open for another year how and the other thing you know we're talking about two locations that are bad you know when when I read the study is telling you current location is bad and the other location is not as bad but bad so other than water which is significant on both sides um that I've seen personally many times There's issues on safety There's issues on environmental there there's a lot of issues at at this location along P Blanca and Cabrio um so definitely I want there to be discussion on it um but many people don't understand how much this has impacted the subdivision overall for many years this is not something that just happened um this year or last year as a resident um in that particular neighborhood for quite some time this has been going on for several years way before that water threats analysis was done um you know long long time okay I have I have years of when um it was kind of conceived as a boat ramp but not really there's no history nothing on file that indicates how this ever was approved to start with um so there's a lot of history that goes back um so I definitely want to have a discussion about this um and and also having a design in another location and we we're talking about two locations but we're not looking as to whether we do want to have two ramps at Egan that could have been a design that would have been presented um I I know we're Limited in land um as far as location of where there could be another one but when we look at our comprehensive plan if I remember um and you can correct me it's one one ramp for every 5,000 population is that correct yes that's correct So currently having one means that we meet the comprehensive plan correct yes our population is just less than 10,000 so uh currently you know technically we would be meeting it right now with the one r but as soon as we hit 10,000 then our comp plan says we should have two or you could look at that a different way you know again I would love to have a meeting with the community so the community can understand what's happening in that current location and the impact it has on the residence um I understand what's going on in uh people's comments from Pat Grill Vina delmare um who used the ramp because of the proximity um but we have to take into consideration all the other other reasons why this current location is is not um the best best solution um when you read a study that says it's just bad both in in Cabrio or the current location um again that's just part of what I would like to I can go on for a long time about this I'm not going to because I would definitely not be motioning to approve something that doesn't make any sense this study says it's not good thank you um I think commissioner renz makes a good point you know if we're going to move this to a town hall uh there's really no point for us to keep going on here with questions and so on um I do think we should give people an opportunity if they want to speak now or wait till the town hall it's up to you um but I think we should open up for audience comments thank you very much um thank you Mike from an engineering perspective um I I'm perfectly happy I'm very glad to hear from everybody and get more feedback and of course as we're directed for a town hall meeting we certainly look forward to that sounds good thanks Mike do we want or need a motion to move this to a town hall so I think it's twofold one is that you're going to defer this to to a later date not to be determined right now but after holding a town hall uh um meeting to discuss it okay so did I hear we need a motion for that sure okay I make a motion to I do it I'd love to hear you do it I'll make a motion to uh defer this uh as an action item to a date to be determined we gen just as a point of order we generally do audience comments first and then we do motions thank you um so I think if you're here and you want to speak um we have your card and Jenny's going to call out your name if you decide you don't want to speak that's fine as well Martin leond I'm gonna hold my thank you Jill leond hello everybody thank you for tonight please state your name and address record yes um Gilla fond 3200 GF Boulevard Marina Bay Condominiums coming here tonight was really refreshing I so appreciate this entire meeting tonight the last time I stood up here we were fighting um to stop the bus stop that was going to be now where this boat ramp is proposed on cabillo Avenue um I just want to point out a couple things as to how we got here and really honestly it's a mess um Betty thank you to you too I appreciate everything you said the stantech was hired sometime in February to do a feasibility study that Mike spoke about there was a town hall in um a District 4 town hall on July 12th 2023 at that town hall the feas people came out to that meeting because this boat ramp was on the agenda and people were fired up because they were talking about the Fe the possibility of it closing it being moved or being fixed where it was we were assured at that meeting but don't worry there's going to be lots of input what we heard tonight was Egan Park was considered there was no town hall on that the closing who who had input Mike seemed to say no one wanted to be closed but where was the town hall on that so that's why y all got so many emails from a lot of us in the past several days and even hours because when the agenda packet came out one of our resident saw it it was like wait where did this come from so procedurally this was really a mess and I'm just feel very relieved that it's going to be tabled but I do think I would make a motion that we go back and look at all those things again because really there was no Talent input on any of it so thank you very much appreciate it thank you and just to clarify something not for you you're good uh as far as the process goes the way that the process was established was we're going to have a study based on the study there will be recommendations that the commission can consider I was was surprised that we did not have a study with the information and then more resident input but that's what we're doing now and just kind of resetting the process um but that's that was the purpose of the study is so that we can come back to the residents with something that has data numbers information that is you know not just but actual Based on data so thank you yes Omar Shakin you please state your name and address for the record chck 1 3335 West maritana Drive I have some photos that I copied and I'd like to distribute those to you if you would appreciate that certainly you want to do that ma'am you want okay I want to begin by first thanking mayor brilla for his contribution cutting the exit time at the Don CeSar ramp from 11:00 p.m. to 10 p.m. also commissioner Betty R Nikki for her ongoing encouragement without which I would not PL giv up all all hope to the former commission for the unanimous unanimous vote in support thank all of you I want everyone to know that this simple act has made an impact on our lives in West mediterania Drive thank you very much on the topic regarding the boat ramp and question I have comments and encouragement the ramp is dangerous um one season I saw no less than five vehicles sucked into the inter Coastal Waters these just didn't slide to the bottom of the ramp they drifted 50 to 75 yards out one Saturday morning a fellow backed up and went out to adjust the boat there were two young kids in the truck and the truck was perilously close to that break loose point when the attached now floating boat begins to lift the back of the truck taking weight off the rear wheels the father ignored my warnings two little kids in that truck so that's the purpose of the relatively new sign of which I've given you a picture slippery indeed the new policy of pressure washing the ramp makes it significantly safer but the last time the washer showed up was on the day after a vehicle went underwater excuse this is a dangerous intersection excuse me for a second Omar I'm sorry we can't hear him whoever is speaking in the audience I don't know who you are just take it outside please thank you the this is a dangerous intersection next picture shows a car driving on the left no problem another speeding vehicle runs the stop sign while quickly turning right now picture the kayakers in the intersection I've given you a picture of the kayakers add the weekend rush as existing Passad Grill Vehicles cut across this intersection after sunset in a hurry to both beat the other traffic to get home quickly because of the daylight savings time boarding The Kayaks and these rushing Vehicles will soon clash and on on more than just one night look for that to happen over the next four weeks this ramp is a perfect storm gave you a picture when the prevailing winds prevent the Waters of Tampa Bay from leaving at low tide then as high tide approaches this dangerous ramp virtually catapults the waters onto the road we have four to 5 ft of seawater flowing like a speeding River down the street at the very least with a ramp built elsewhere at 99 degrees to the prevailing storm surge perhaps the waters might be calmer and somewhat filtered by the grass and I might not end up with jellyfish in my pool you can see that picture on a related note thank you sir can I continue no we all get three minutes thank you I'm sure we'll hear from you again at the Town Hall you will thank thanks om Ed Chima please state your name and address for the record okay my name is Ed Kea I live in Don cazar place and um I'd like to say to this commission that anybody who can read knows that you guys have been under a lot of heat from a lot of different angles and this boat ramp issue I think is an opportunity for you to do something great for the community um Betty's right the study says one of the areas you're looking at sucks and the other one sucks even more so I don't know why we'd spend money to design something in a place that the study says is not a very good place Mike Clark is right about one thing he lives in Don's our place so he knows that the people in Dan's our place are crying every month about the water that invades their home nothing's worse in my opinion nothing's worse he's not right about enough other thing nobody ever asked the residents of Don as our place about eliminating the the boat ramp entirely and uh Mr Saunders the census says the population of St Pete Beach is 8,900 roughly so you've got 1100 people to go before you meet 10,000 so one boat ramp meets the comprehensive plan um if you voted to support people in other communities to allow them to take their boat dump it off have a nice day out on the gulf and come back versus supporting the people that pay the taxes here and live in a place that's underwater for several days a year you would really be doing a big disservice to this community last but not least you could save a lot of money by closing down the two locations or the one location in the proposed location and spend the money to mitigate the flooding in a neighborhood that's been Peril with this and not much has been done about it that's all I got thank you sorry Kevin there will be no more clapping thank you you all think the sheriff's here for no reason at all controlling the roues uh Kevin Hughes 3211 12 um my family's had the dock north of the proposed Cabrio location since the 50s uh the current Dock's built to accommodate a 90f footer but we've had boats ranging from 53 to 70 ft in that dock for pretty much forever uh the real location is a hazard to navigation for me you're sticking it out 80 fet into the water now there's only 80 ft between the end of that Dock and my first tie pole yeah that just makes it either impractical to dangerous to dock or cast off a decent sized vessel out of that Dock and that's and one of the discussions was repairi and rights well that's Ingress and egress to navigable Waters and that thing would cut off my access to that dock for anything any reasonable size boat uh on Commercial activity uh the kayak business is generating traffic and noise after normal hours yes we've add you've addressed it and my neighborhoods complain about that at every general meeting of the our association uh there's also been a lot of use of that of the ramp for uh commercial barge construction traffic uh that's not appropriate for residential neighborhood it's an RM Zone I don't even know how they're permitted to be there in the first place moving the ramp you now moving the ramp to Grio gives those problems to other people it doesn't solve them now parking uh reading the study the requirements in that report are are arbitrary suggestions and no study to an actual basis in fact over the past couple years there's only really been one holiday weekend where the existing trailer parking was inadequate the reports calling for more but the existing parking is underused 90% of the time uh dces our places problems with unlawful use of our beach we're helped out the issue was helped out when a substantial number of car parking spaces were converted to boat trailer parking adding more unused trailer parking is just going to encourage par cars to park illegally and unlawfully access our beach the elevated that elevator ramp design effectively will create a dam at the south end of Cabrio and the result and there could make it impassible during tropical events we only had that's the only alternative golf boulevards blocked by an accident the storm water redesign in Gulf Boulevard didn't improve Gulf Boulevard so I don't have much faith in proper mitigation of flooding from this ramp uh well the other part of it was addressed thank you thank you sir Mark rashall please state your name and address for the record um my name is Mark RHA I'm representing oton Florida which owns the Miller family bird sanctuary mcfish byou and um we're based in Tampa um so I appreciate the uh Commissioners and mayor having uh public comment on this issue um I know this discussion will be tabled and and be part of a um more of a wider public comment and I just want to say that um myself and aabon Florida is here for any information I know that um folks have cited the bird sanctuaries is one of the reasons not to have you know an expansion or movement of the um boat ramp and you know I like just like to say that you know we'll be there to provide that input um that island is one of the more important bird colonies within BCAA Bay and that includes the National Wildlife refuges to the South which no longer support the large Burg colonies that they did in the past and so it is a property that was donated in 2012 to the oton society that we've maintained um many years before that managed and surveyed and we continue to do so so I just want to say that we're a resource um for that information and can help in any way we can thank you thank you Deb shner to John kurman from be Honda Way South John kman um can I have my slides zoomed in and start the clock can you zoom in and then start the clock please can you start the clock thank you um so uh it was discussed but I prepared these slides earlier the relocating the boat ramp uh being one alternative and the other alternative um keeping it there is interesting to note um Betty will recognize this slide I did a search on the ramp and noticed a petition she had done uh Commissioner rukki of you know the spillways and it looks a lot like the ramp on a lot of the occasions where the water level just goes up too high and and so when you do the ramp relocate really that alternative is not just a case of relocating the ramp you you you're you're not relocating the ramp you're making a new ramp and as as as uh Mr Sanders uh mentioned you actually have to now decommission the old ramp and so that alternative needs to include that cost so before you can really do a town hall I think or before you can really weigh the alternative you need to include the C cost of what you're going to do to the old ramp in association with that alternative so one alternative is to redo alternative one which is the Donar ramp the other alternative is to make a new ramp at the other location and then repair the Donar ramp to no longer be a ramp and be a seaw wall and the reason I say it like that is because here is the Donar ramp if it was redone and then here's what they would have done to the roadway if they redid it they're going to raise the roadway now some of that is for the curvature and the roadway but as we've seen these projects aren't just raise a seaw wall and make a moat uh or you know you have to do more so you know what's really going to be involved uh what would the cost be for that decision uh and then here's the here's the the other ramp and what they would do if they you know made the new one I mean I I I I'm not going to even weigh in on what it would be I'm a Boer I don't live there I know the people that are there are suffering they have a flooding issue you know I sympathize with that um if I had to choose between the one way or the two-way I'd say the one way is more efficient help get the noise down and get boats in and out of there um uh for the parking you know it said that alternative to uh they didn't have enough parking uh then you know maybe just you know since the two spots are close enough to each other use the parking you know save some of the parking spots from the existing ramp area and and assign them you know keep them around for the first one uh but then again the drainage is the big issue and you know solve the drainage costs and those issues you know so thank you very much and again I'm saying that now because I think it's important to figure that out before you know you do more decisions thanks very much thank you Ken folon oh I guess my time's up just in my last couple seconds it's really we got to can't hear you if you it's really difficult for people from pass Grill and Don cazar especially what all the construction would be doing to get their boats and their trailers all the way to Egan Park so that's a consideration to can think about also you it's a long way especially with you know thank you please state your name and address for the record yes sir uh my name is Ken falson I 358 Casablanca I've lived there for 33 years if you go out to my mailbox and look directly right right you look straight at the boat ramp so I've had a bird's eye view for a very long time uh through the years I've seen everything from a helicopter stopping a rescue helicopter stopping right there uh to pick up someone who's been injured and come in on the boat ramp um seen numerous fist fights lots of arrests and uh sadly several deaths um I'm not I'm not going to go into the comments that I had prepared mostly because they've already been stated and only to say that I agree with all of um but one when we talked about uh getting more information and statistics we talked primarily from an engineering standpoint or also traffic flow and things of this nature but we neglected to talk about the um the um uh user profiles so I don't know and I think that would be extremely useful to understand because I do not know what the percentage of people using that ramp uh come from whether they're uh City residents or outside or or residents of penel County I would strong based upon just my observation I would say that probably outside of the city I do not know what percent if it's a very high percent perhaps that sheds a different light on the decisions that we need to make um I do know that it's that that uh several businesses use that ramp or have used that and in talking to some staff at at the uh at the city I know that that's a trend in Florida in general so we need to take that into consideration as I've SP said many times in front of this commission uh working as a um working as an elected official in town such as St Pete Beach requires that you balance both the res it's a constant Balancing Act between the residents concerns and um the outside interest we're we're obviously an economic engine for the for the county Etc um but um the mayor is right when he always says you know is this the the line is is this good for St Pete Beach or not is it good for the residents or not and um I think that that you know that that if we have a little bit more information in terms of who's using it that would that would help to uh you know illuminate some of the discussions thank you that's all I have thank you okay so um we're going to get with the city clerk and schedule a town hall uh while I appreciate that this Bo ramp lives in a specific neighborhood this is a Citywide issue that will have impact on more than just the residents from that neighborhood so I think it is important that it's not just a District 3 and four Town Hall but rather a Citywide Town Hall at City Hall or at the community Center someplace uh where everyone from the community can come in and contribute and and comment and provide feedback so would you like to make a motion that we instruct the city clerk to schedule a town hall yes I would I'd like to make a motion for the city clerk to uh work with us for a date uh to schedule a town hall that sounds like it needs to be a fairly large Place do we have a second I'll second city clerk if you'll please to a roll call commissioner res Nikki yeah vice mayor vice mayor Lorenzen yes commissioner marot yes commissioner filtz yes mayor patrill yes motion carries okay we are at 5A discussion for possible U commission dates for the summer months uh June July in August uh you have before you two sheets of paper one has the current uh City commission dates and then the other one has the itemized availability for the Commissioners um I think what we had discussed excuse me if you'll please take your conversations outside thank you I think what um I think what we had discussed um last year with Amber was uh looking at kind of squeezing the summer commission meetings to the front end and to the back end um so maybe too early July and then too late August that's that was kind of the discussion that we had uh the thought of it was the schedule and the activity seems to be rather light during the summer months um and also to be able to afford a commission kind of a quasi summer break by putting two because we have to have two commission meetings per month um but we could have two commission meetings in the first week of ju uh July and then two towards the end of of August for example um and if anything urgent came up we could always call a special meeting as well somewhere in the middle of that if necessary so if the city manager City attorney the clerk had something urgent that popped up um you know with some notice hopefully we can get three people together just uh one thing we need to keep in mind is the budget process um July is usually a big month to have the commission involved in the budget process we the uh property appraiser delivers to the city the uh preliminary taxable values on July the 1st uh before that of course we'll be meeting with the commission to to disc discuss budget priorities and working on preliminary budgets but on July 1 when we get those taxable values uh then we have to make adjustments to the budget and typically and I'm looking at our schedule here that we've been working on as a tentative schedule to meet certain dates but usually uh around the end of the first week of July is when the commission would get that revised budget that reflects the new new taxable values uh it goes to the budget and finance committee uh you know the first part first part of July and typically there would be a couple of more at least one or two more budget workshops toward the end of July because on August the 4th is when the city commission has to send to the property appraiser your proposed millage rate so there there has to be a a meeting there at the end of July to establish that proposed millage rate uh that we send out in the trim notices or that the property tax collector sends out so July is a very important month in the budget process that we need to keep in mind when we're looking at these meetings I'll be here the entire summer so any day is Good by me so far but so if anybody has any recommendation one of the things as as everybody knows if they don't I'll publicly state it again I'm only going to serve um until the new whoever is elected to take my seat for District 4 um so I will be traveling considerably um so my intent is to try and do as much as I can via Zoom I didn't know we could vote via Zoom I don't know if we ever covered that we um but at least I can participate um so my intent is to not cause a special election I think that's the last thing the city needs is to spend a bunch of money just for one commissioner so if there's a way so I'm willing to do whatever I need to do um but I'm probably going to miss one or two I think we can miss three but they'll be toward the tail end and my other intent is to get one at least one in August scheduled late August so whoever takes my seat has time at least a week to catch their breath and be around for that last meeting in August yeah the election is scheduled before that last meeting so 20th right yeah thoughts comments the current commission dates um through August I'm I'm good with um as of right now if we were to change them I will be unavailable August 14th through the 19th which is one meeting so actually no that's between the meetings yeah would be yeah it's okay so I mean if that's the case do we even need to look at making any changes to the dates mayor there was excuse me there's only one date and and I looked at the spreadsheet that the city clerk sent us so that I could kind of see where everybody was at it looks like the only date that I had previously said was June 25th that I wouldn't be available all other debates that are on the 2024 meeting are good with me um and I don't think they conflict with anybody according to what the table says um and if um commissioner Lorenzen just needed the possibility of being able to go virtual I think we would be good I'm good for all of May and June the only one I would I'm sorry so I'm good of all for May and June the only one I'd see July 9th would probably be impossible for me to get a connection because I'll be way out in the weeds of Nova Scotia in a national park but you could still have four folks so I don't want to hijack that okay so are we good with leaving the dates as is U let's see 23rd if you're all good with me not being in on the 25th yeah okay so we'll just leave it easy and and leave the dates as is okay and mayor are you going to appear um virtually on the first meeting in May yes could could I just ask a question have we clarified that we can vote via telecommunications or Zoom I thought that was an open item so the answer is yes you have to make sure that you have all the materials with you in front of you you have reviewed them um you know this should not be used as a um matter of convenience it has to be used as a more of a an exception than the rule um I would prefer that it not happened during any type of Quasi judicial hearing um just simply because of due process reasons that um I think that it could put the city at risk but generally most City business um I think the the Attorney General opinions are that um while they go back aways they're a little outdated but using electronic means to participate as long as you're not using it to create a quorum you have to have a physical Quorum or else you can't do it thank you sounds good all right next we move on to item six reports city clerk I do not city manager uh couple of quick things I just want to remind everyone that we do have a workshop schedule prior to the next meeting the 26th uh 4 p.m. I believe uh Rita had contacted all of you about availability on that the uh search firm for the city manager position will be here to discuss with you uh where they are uh in the search at that point uh the U uh the closing date for applications was yesterday um I was told a couple of days ago that they had I think 75 applications uh and they're going through that um so um just remember that I just want to remind you of that Workshop they'll be here to discuss uh what they have and how we'll be moving forward uh from that uh also um and I think I've spoken with all of you individually but just to remind you we we've had another discussion with our uh The Firm that was selected to do the comp plan review um we after meeting with them we determined we're going to need to come back to the commission uh to discuss the scope uh the original scope that was sent out for a consultant was very general it's basically stated uh a review of the comp plan and at the meeting when they were selected the commission narrowed that scope uh to uh to look at the large resort District the Cory Avenue and also uh economic impact so uh that changes the scope uh which will uh we'll need to bring back to youall uh also there was a component in there that required the city staff to do a lot of work which we simply do not have the staff or the time to do that so we're working with the consultant now to bring that scope back to youall very quickly uh some of the preliminary things are already being done but we'll have that back to you very quickly we actually talked with them again yesterday so we uh they we think we'll have that in a matter of a few days um I believe that's all I have mayor thank you Wayne City attorney uh yes thank you very much mayor um one quick uh request um today I did receive a written settlement Proposal with regard to the uh red white and boo cup uh application challenge uh it still needs some massaging but I would like seeing your schedules rapidly fill up I'd like to go ahead and per statute 28611 subp paragraph 8 exercise my right to formally request a private meeting uh um with you all to discuss that settlement get it on the book and I'm looking at April 9th which is two meetings now so I know that you've got a workshop in two weeks I don't want to crowd your schedule but if we can get an hour before the meeting on the 9th at 5:00 uh it would be myself Matthew and u u Bill elrk the defense attorney hopefully and if for some reason I can't get uh the settlement discussion in a uh a better format a better more uh appetizing I guess you know or something happens and we'll just cancel the cancel that meeting but I'm going to continue to work with them on it but I do have something in writing so therefore I want to present it to you all thank you sorry what was the date 9th okay thank April 9th April 9th yeah sorry any objections to 500 p.m. on the April 9th 5:00 5:00 yeah okay get all done in one day yeah so we'll put together the agenda and the notice um and get it and work with the clerk's office to make sure everything's done correctly thank you on our end thank you for that appreciate it that's all district four yeah thank you um if anybody's listening out there in D4 land um again I am not running for reelection I stated that when I volunteered for the appointment U so please uh talk to each other we really need some folks to come forward um the more the merrier in my opinion um I believe there's a deadline in April and then one in May I think they have to buy some kind of packet then they also have to fill out an application for the August 20th election yes it's on our website okay so um please pay attention to that it's coming up quick it's next month uh as far as the garbage pickup thanks to the city staff and uh and and Jennifer and your crew for getting at least those couple of alleys open and as Murphy's Law would have it boom We tore up all the alleys and put in the water lines so it's going to be at least of another couple weeks before they can actually uh take the garbage out to the alley again um and just a reminder anybody in District 4 my meet and greet is still the first and third Wednesday of each month at Hurley Park and uh I'm also trying to disseminate District 4 specific news through U the passag grill and ven delm Community associations they have an email chain so I found that to be a good way to get information out thank you man mayor thank you District three no nothing at the moment thank you District Two yeah so um I have filled the vacancy um for the Parks and Recreation advisory committee Scott Sebert had to step down Grant Izzy will be replacing him uh Grant served he's he's retired colonel in the Air Force he served 39 years moved to St P Beach about 3 years ago um so that's that's one update and then else that uh that's it for now thank you district one nothing thank you all right thank you everyone we are adjourned for