office will have that available for anybody that wants to revisit that thank you so Madam mayor I I uh I'll make a motion to approve I think is anyone Keith you want to read this in record I don't have to read the title but I can give this this is very much by way of housekeeping this is our annual uh resolution that calls for the municipal election oh and Mr sori does need to declare a conf a voting conflict on this that's correct so I will not be voting mayor um but the issue this year is um due to the familial relationship between Mr Shor who's running um for re-election uh and the supervisor of elections we actually had to modify our agreement with the supervisor and um request that the County canvasing Board appoint an alternate in her place originally when you adopted this ordinance it was the village clerk however the village clerk is not a um El ctor in Palm Beach County so that will not work so we are um amending the resolution to appoint Village manager executive assistant who is a to Palm Beach County uh elector and qualif would be qualified to serve in that capacity so this is just amending the resolution that the council already adopted in that regard thank you Council any comments questions on this and then just to have on record I take public comment now and there is no public here tonight yet all right so Madame mayor I make a motion to approve I believe it's resolution number 1-24 as presented I'll second that all in favor I I all right can I get a motion to adjourn the special council meeting so moved second all in favor I I you give our clerk just a few seconds to set up we didn't get the vote from p on the on the resolu [Laughter] hi it's a three minute minute meeting be my shortest one that might be quickest one yet yeah okay all right I will now like to call to order our Workshop meeting is 6:04 p.m. January 29th 2024 Maryann can I get roll call Mayor Young here vice mayor Brandon here council member here council member Sor here council member Bradford here thank you the first item on the agenda tonight is discussion of an ordinance amending the city code of ordinances section 74 4 -82 to allow a lean on property for unpaid service charges through magistrate rather than counsel for our water utility good evening Marjorie Craig utilities director and we're looking for some direction on the current process so um the existing ordinance merely says it allows us to lean unpaid service charges uh but it does not have a process in the uh ordinance and it just says uh when it's delinquent more than 30 days it may be foreclosed by The Village attorney is provided by law and there's a bunch of words above that but basically that's in a nutshell that's um the sentence that gives the authority to the Village attorney what we're asking for is can we please add a process and can we we already have a magistrate that is uh used by the building Department can we go ahead and just use uh the magistrate to have hearings for that and uh and have them determine uh whether we can foreclose or not and this is not for like every customer that's delinquent this is if you look through what I've put here um there's a quite a process and before you may recall that when we ride off the the counts receivable on our dashboard it is usually 2 to 3 years old and we have right now we have our accounts receivable is right about 60,000 or so last year we rote off about 19,000 and the year before that about 9,000 so um and before we even do that it goes through quite quite a process and we don't even necessarily write it off even at that point so uh we've got a draft ordinance that the city attorney's office has drafted and kind of look through some neighboring uh municipalities and put something together and and we we've talked about it it we send a notice 30 days customer doesn't respond the hearing will take place we'll notify them at that time when the next hearing is by the magistrate and then it'll be recorded and and the the assessment can earn interest so the current delinquency process if you look at the the uh staff memo you know if the we have we bill in a rear so that just means that whatever water used it's build the month after it's used and then if your bill is 30 days late we send a notice 1% of the outstanding balance and a charge and then 60 day late then we start to initiate the water shut off process all of this is very TP typical of a typical utility system uh we contact the customer by phone you know we notice them by mail we call them uh we continue to contact the customer and then the the two probably things to think about is an anactive account where the an anactive account is where a customer has notified us that they're moving out and they're moving on and so um or if another customer sets up an account at that in an existing address so then we know they're moving out and they're sent to our collections contractor after about 6 months if they haven't paid made payment so and then as we talked about the bill write off is considered two to three years after review of the process so Finance still looks at what we've done through that process made sure that we've made contact to the customer before we even write it off um active accounts and the the difference there is really um where they've moved out and they haven't notified us that continues to acre charges and late fees and the water's already been shut off nobody's living there and it's AC crewing fees so we do have uh one address right now that has accured about $8,000 so that's the kind of of uh account that we would be looking to lean the property for the balance of the fees due so uh and then I've listed the delinquency process including the proposed property lean so most of the accounts where this happens are renters uh for the inactive accounts they've moved out we can't find them and um so in some utilities they don't allow uh renters to sign up for the bill they only allow it to go through the owner we're not s suggesting that unless you give us Direction in that way in that case um and that way the owner is still recover uh accountable so one thing on this particular proposed ordinance it does say that the owner and the renter are severally oh gosh Keith you might have to uh say it in the legal stuff instead of engineer um separately and together liable uh for the bills so that does it is stated in the ordinance so um that's one one other thing so with that I'm I'm looking for some direction I don't know if you've had a chance to really look at it digest it think about it uh what does that want to look what what do we want that to look like here in the village right so we are a very kind utility we don't uh turn people people off during the holidays we don't but we do have to have some mechanism in place to recover outstanding fees and water use charges any questions thank you margerie Council thank thank you margorie um I'm fine you know giving direction for the magistrate um and the lean process and all that but the the part that I would like to see is change um is we don't even start collection efforts for six well we don't send it to a collection agency for six months uh you know a typical financing institution a bank but after 90 days you know they're trying to repo your car and they're going to shut you down so have we considered or is there a reason behind waiting six months I mean after 90 days I typically we know we've got a dead beat um so once we send it to the collection a agency we have no we I don't think that we get any of the anything that they collect I think the collection agency gets all of the money so I think we and there must be a reason I don't have a good answer for you on that okay on how why is it six months okay um I can see three or four months uh I I would not say that that's a whole lot different than I've seen um but I'd have to get back on the details okay at this time it does seem like a long time yeah as far as this process goes that we've discussed tonight I'm I'm I'm fine with that I think it makes total sense um I agree with what Rick just said um but I have three questions the part that you just said margerie about uh uh joint and sbly uh liable for the charges between owner and renter is that is that in the ex existing code or the proposed code that's in the proposed ordinance that H that the attorney's office has drafted and I wanted to bring that up because I that was kind of a different concept than what we've done before but it is common language in an ordinance like this so it's not well with that language I would think that uh by default give staff the ability to go after the the uh homeowner so I don't even know that we need to have another Clause that says we can or requires the the owner to sign up for the for the account of a renter uh but I would have to leave that to uh uh Keith yeah I can on on that topic state law has a little piece in it that that says if the account is opened in the name of the tenant and the Tenant kind of bailes on us we're not allowed to deny a subsequent tenant service because of the previous tenant tenants bad behavior that's why we want the accounts to be in the name of the property owner because then we avoid having that problem where we have a old tenant that has run up a bad Bill and then we still have to give service to the new tenant at the same address the joint and several you know it's a an attempt to try and put some teeth into keeping the old tenant somewhat liable um E Yeah so so you're saying that that language does not bring the property owner into the loop for payment my my understanding is that we require the property owner to open the account is that here in the village we don't um but what you said is correct it it would give us some teeth to allow us to go ahead and seek uh repayment by the property own we may want to have that discussion and change that practice for that purpose um and just avoid the tenant the issue of having to open a new account for a new tenant even and there are some util uh utilities or municipalities within Palm Beach County that require the owner to and I don't think it changes what's before the council tonight but that's a topic that we can have or discussion we can uh have offline so my um um three questions are is the law clear that the Questa can have lean Authority outside our village boundaries I'm assuming it's clear maybe not so there's a there's actually a bill in the legislature that's working its way through that that would strip us of the ability to impose ose a search charge outside of our boundaries anymore um I I can't sit here and tell you that that's a crystal clear um piece looking at properties outside of the village I mean I I I think if they if they owe a debt we we can still record a lean against that property I think it's different than assessing a search charge so um but adjudication comes before our special magistrate and the only other thing I will tell you is that I have used a process very similar to this in another city against a property outside of the municipal boundaries that was in their water service area and and we recorded leans against that property now that were never judicially challenged but we did do that okay all right just want to make sure we're uh and nearly um if I if I may the the nearly every municipality I can think of in Palm Beach County does serve outside their Municipal boundaries so um it's since this is not you know and I'm not an attorney I just I don't even play one on TV I just the um I believe that you you can put a lean on property that's not within I have I've done that yeah cuz they're still a customer they still owe you you still or do those uh that bill second question is we make reference to Bill ride off after 2-3 years and Mike you know that's such a big wiggle room why don't we just say two years or you know lock it down so that staff knows when that point in time comes action is taken that's a question for Marjorie um so the annual ride off we'd have to get the finance director in here too we can and I can talk to him about it to Jeff um this was the process in place when I got here I've just I I can't you know how do you eat the elephant just one bite at a time we've got a lot going on so it is something that's bothered me is why is it why is it so long and then you know I'm looking at a dashboard and I'm like um so we can discuss that and and uh see if we can get that I I'm really not sure why we're not riding off you know more of them so it's not right now $60,000 okay about 20,000 of that is um well over the holidays you know it always goes up after we don't shut people off so answer your question we'll bring it back we'll look at it and we come back we'll try to put a date certain on it 24 months or whatever I think the council's goal I'm not speaking for anybody but the goal is to get collection not granting time add in phom item for people who don't pay their bill um uh last question is uh in this bill collector uh process that we have when we contact The Bill Collector does that contractor take any action to provide input to the credit bureaus about as uh paraphrasing what Rick said about the dead beat so my understanding is that it does go against your credit MH but I would have to get you a firm answer on that okay but it it's something that anytime a credit bureau becomes involved it's I would suggest I'm all for the magistrate I'm all for faster adjudication Etc but I would think that as part of that process the contract of the bill collector should be looked at the speeding up the process so that you know they're up the creek without a paddle much sooner than they are getting away with today that's that's just Tom's opinion okay um going through the process for delinquent bills let's say a family especially in this crazy economy that's still not fixed yet gets a hardship do we still do where if they reach out at a good faith we work something out or they go like on a payment plan do we still kind of do that yes as partnership okay so that's just I want to make sure that's just not out the window because that does happen and they are trying to do their due diligence and catch up and work it out secondly I think the magistrate is fine I I am personally open to if we require a homeowner the proper prop owner to be in charge of the water account because I could see lots of pros and cons on both sides for the renter and cons for the property owner however we do have data and evidence that there have been Runners that come and go and just it's a free-for-all for them and that's not fair to the Village property owner if they're smart as a landlord they'll put them in the rental contract that you know if they don't pay bills that gives them also some teeth that they have to to go down the eviction process I just I see more Pros than cons so I would kind of lean towards that right now um because also that goes towards our other taxpayers where we are looking at working on our water maintenance and stuff we're losing a lot of money that we' be putting towards that and if we keep losing that then we just have to keep adding fees to the bills for our residents who are here and committed so again I see a lot more Pros to having the property owners responsible and letting these Runners come and go otherwise it looks good to me council member painter anything council member painter you ask me yep do you have any uh questions or comments no I think I mean I did but I think just talking listening to you guys talk through it answered most of my questions so I mean I guess the main question I have is there's really so in the agenda or in the backup of the agenda there's the draft ordinance for discussion then there's the current delinquency and then there's the third delinquency process including proposed property lean are we trying to decide between the uh draft ordinance for discussion and and this third option the delinquency process including proposed property lane or are we only considering the draft ordinance for discussion a little confused by it so the draft ordinance is for discussion so it has certain process and then then what I put is the current delinquency process what we go through and then the the proposed one I probably should have put the word well it says the second one is with the proposed property lean in there and I put in uh bold and italics where the customer or owner would go through the lean process so just adding that to the process itself and you know whatever feedback we can I can change it or or bring it back okay no no no I'm good I just wanted to make sure I understood exactly what we were uh what we were looking at to well we're not adopting anything but just want to make sure I understood it well I'm good thank you though okay um I my many of my questions have been covered I guess the one that hasn't is have we ever it's always been an ordinance but there wasn't a process for it have we ever leaned a property do we have history of ever doing that even once I've never been asked to record a lean of that sort um in my time here okay so we're assuming no as far as utility wasn't there the one on Cyprus Cyprus or is it little I'm thinking of if the do you remember that house vill you know and and I think that was an extremely old account and and that may have been what motivated okay the work that got us to where we are tonight to get a better process on the books but I don't think we actually recorded a lean okay so it's been on ordinance for a very long time and we haven't been utilizing it uh not that we want to be leaning properties of course like right that's the worst case scenario so um I'm you know in favor of um you know having this in the process is there I'm assuming any cost associated with this would be covered by the property owner any staff cost or is to you know attorney costs all of that would that be something that like you know taxpayers or the water uh so users are going to pay for or would the you know the customer owner that is being lean would recoup would have to repay all those costs that's a great question so what we would do is uh collect all of that information and provide it to the magistrate as a part of the fees and and services due so that we could try to collect uh any of our time or the cost as a part of the lean process if yeah if we had to take it to that hearing much like we do with code enforcement we collect administrative costs that cover the villages um expense bring in the hearing uh I think we would look to do a very the same thing with with these and recover those administrative costs so that there's not a u yeah so we're not out the cost to do to go through this whole process but you do have to think about is it worth you know how big is the bill is it a couple hundred bucks is it worth you know leaning a property probably not um but um if you want to give direction on that too too like a a an amount uh that's fine too there there just happens to be one that is around $88,000 but that one is kind of an older account it's an older account it's been around uh for a number of years and we know the property's vacant and we've continued to try to reach out to to recover the costs but Margie you know that um if we go down the path of making the property owner be responsible for the creation of and the payment of the water bill account then $200 is not going to stop us from going to lean you know if they didn't pay it they didn't pay it why would we wait till it's 500 1,000 2,000 just go after that you've gone through the timeline they haven't paid it the property owner still owns it what's the stop us that is accurate right so why let it just sit there in a crew start the process yeah just start the ball roll I mean I hear you the cost in the worth of yeah I get that but I like I like sticking to the process yeah word spreads like wildfire yeah I think the joint and several liability is going to fix a lot of these 90day past to it won't get that more it I think property own is going to take it I think that's District doesn't let it get far just incremental creep I think that goes away lahi River District is another utility they don't let it get that far yeah so we wouldn't be the first ones to just hold people accountable don't let it sit there for years and well having your support is tremendous speaks volume so so I'm my opinion is I think a lot of good points have been brought up tonight I don't know that we need to see this you know at the next council meeting as it's written I don't know how urgent it is to just add the you know the lean process line item in there um I'm wondering if we just maybe get have this on a workshop again um touch the points about you know when does it go to collections the two to three years for writeoffs the you know confirming we can lean outside of Municipal boundaries um you know defining collecting fees and other costs uh adding Property Owners to the making sure the property owners is always tied to the account um I think there's a handful of things that maybe we could look into and I don't think it would hurt to have maybe some examples of what other nearby M uh water utilities do I think it always helps to look at you know at some of our neighbors and see what they're doing to make sure we're being you know reasonable and kind of in line I think the basic shell of this came from Atlant an's water lean process it's not exactly the same but it resembles it lus well what is Council what is Council thing yeah there's a lot of yeah it's pretty cut and dry I think but there's a lot of open-ended things so let's let staff be comfortable with it um and I don't think you know another delay another 30 or 60 days till we see it again is going to St the process but I do believe that these disjoint several liabilities going to stop a lot of the the incremental creep will go away I believe any new problems coming in forward I agree with Rick we've brought off brought up enough things tonight to cause margorie and staff to and attorney to go back and look at it again and answer all the questions that arose in this process tonight I've said it before on record and I'll say it again I just never want to see the village become lak worth utilities I'm very familiar with that I love that we try to work work with our residents the best we can before we even have to go down that kind of Road of doing a lean obviously it is what it is if people don't participate but we have a lot of good people and sometimes there's just hard times okay all right and for the record I would usually take public comment now but there is no public here so I think staff you guys are clear yep all right on thank you margerie thank you for Fe agenda item two is up on Land Development regulations recommended as part of the commercial Quarter Master Plan uh Madame mayor could I ask a procedural question of him and then ask the same to the council yep Lance um as you go through this for with us would you like if we have comments would you like to hear them upon each section that you're talking about or would you like us to hold them them to the end and then let you hear all of them so I was ask going to ask you that question as well so so counil what's your pleasure yeah we've we've seen this presentation I didn't want to go through each slide and kind of you know dag this along I I was going to you know tailor off of the ones that have changed based off our last meeting but however way you'd like it to be conducted it's up to yeah I mean whatever the consensus is I my I mean I feel like this is like the fifth time we've gone through this so you know I would have you know prefer to have them run through the presentation and then we can go back on comments but fine with me whatever the consensus is it's I'm fine with that it's okay I just want to set the table for sure no it's good okay yeah run through it and then we'll back with questions so uh good evening for the record Lance Lily senior plan with Chim Associates um assisting Community Development um this is as the mayor mentioned maybe the third or fourth or maybe the fifth time that we've been here for this um it's to propos code text Amendment for the commercial Corridor based on Treasure Coast's um report so just to start this all began in 2022 um Treasure Coast conducted a 5day shet to obtain feedback from the residents the feedback that was provided by them became um the report that you have on the left hand side um in 20 uh November 2022 The Village Council adopted said master plan we had follow-up meetings with Mr Allen as well as Mr Dana little and then we had several workshops with this Council or and previous Council what was discussed was key recommendations which included District centers Frontage standards Civic Open Spaces the measuring of height drive-through buildings and gas stations location of parking primary streets dark Skylight or Sky night lighting and Green Design so this was the map that they put together um the map was separated into three overlay districts which we have continued that this looks actually a little bit different from what you saw last month yes December last month we still have the same three overlay districts but um based on the conversation that we had last month as well as with the manager and um Mr hup um we've kind of sailed this a little bit better so it's more graphically represented so just to start um on the top side is the previous um overlay that you saw in December the one to the bottom is the one that we have amended since then um we just kind of curved out the lines a little bit made them more straight and also we extended the boundary just a little bit north on CBR to um to incorporate that stop and go um gas station um the purpose and intent of this is still the same however based on the council meeting that we had or the council worship that we had last month it was discussed that formula businesses should be allowed um and it'd be up to 1250 ft I believe is what it was discussed um everything else is still the same from the previous meeting the this is the existing zoning code so the three zoning districts that are there there in that area are C1 C2 and C3 based on what we had proposed previously the um front setback would be a maximum of 20 ft rather than what was existing there which was minimum standards 15 25 15 um and based on communication that we've had before um this was the table that was proposed in the Treasure Coast plan so now this is showing the actual Frontage standards based on each individual Street within that overlay district and and also on the right hand side you'll notice that it has the primary and secondary streets based on that overlay so just for um for housekeeping purposes what's formula businesses we've actually Incorporated a definition for formula businesses um it's pretty similar to the formula restaurant however we think that it Incorporated a lot more businesses outside of restaurants such as Healthcare facilities Medical Dental retail personal services um and real estate um and then it includes you know uniforms Decor uh facade design signage color schemes Etc as I mentioned it would be permitted for all the overlays that I'm going to go over but it' be up to 1250 ft anything above that would be a special exception use and then just for consideration from the council um this was discussed that you know as these these you know local businesses as they start to grow do we want to consider them to be exempt from formula businesses or are they going to also be considered a formula business um just because as they grow they might have three or four or five locations then they would then be subject to these new regulations so just something to consider so as I mentioned for the special exception portion of this um if it does exceed that 1250 Square ft then they would have criteria um the first criteria is that they'd have to comply with our existing special exception code which is um 78 363 and 3 364 so as you know if you're familiar with the special exception process an applicant would submit a special exception use they' come before Council and Council would then um Grant or deny based on if they've met that criteria so now this requires them to meet that criteria as well as these additional criteria that are here um that it will not alter the identity of the zoning District that will contribute to a um diverse and appropriate blend of businesses um that'll um complement the existing businesses in the district and help promote and Foster local economic base be compatible with the existing surroundings um that will preserve the community's character facade design colors will be compatible as well as the business corporate structure um elements and signage will be harmonious with the district so these front standards haven't changed since our last meeting these are the same um like I mentioned it'd be a maximum 20 ft and then as you go higher then you have to essentially set the building back a little bit and then we transition to the US1 overlay so as you see on the left hand side the US1 overlay had more so just that little um uh straight line that a little bit of curve now we've elaborated and put a little bit more detail into the actual boundaries of this um this map so this would include the same zoning dises as previous which is the C2 mixed use and as I mentioned it would have the maximum of 20 ft for properties um that were east of one and that was based off of vice mayor Brandon's um I think it was maybe in July that you said that you didn't kind of want the tunnel effect and have two two um on both sides that be close to the road so for the US One overlay um they would have this would be the only Zone District that would allow drive-throughs as well as um formula restaurants so drive-throughs would be limited of course to us one overlay um mixed juice and C2 zoning districts Common um common drive-throughs are such as gas stations fast food establishments and typically in the front based on our proposed code we'd have it that they'd be on the side or the rear of the building um and shall be screened from the public um and that'd be kind of the same thing for the fuel station full service fuel stations um this was just mentioned just a while ago which is the permitted uses would be for up to 1250 ft for formul businesses um formula restaurants would be allowed in this overlay as well as parking in the rear would be essentially required for the properties that are east of US1 these are the frontage standards and as you see on the right hand side toquer drive and us one would be the um the main primary streets for this anything else would be secondary I'm going to skip this just formula businesses is allowed in the this as well now formula restaurants so as I mentioned formula restaurants would only be permitted in the US One overlay um what's the definition of formula restaurant it's a restaurant that has one one of a chain or group of three or more restaurants in a nation which um satisfies two of the following two or three of the following criteria um same similar name trademark um trade name um that it has a standardized menu limited menu ingredients food average preparation um and then the Aesthetics anything over 1250 is a special exception correct yes it's the same thing throughout yeah um Frontage standards are the same as previously mentioned and then this was changed from our last meeting so previous overlay on the left- hand side it was strictly kind of that um One Main Street a little bit of Cyprus um not Cypress but old Dixie and then it goes to Testa Drive we've actually expanded that to include almost all of Old Dixie as well as Testa drive and um South of Bridge Road it even goes and includes Village Boulevard which was on previously mentioned Frontage standards are the same I mean uh zoning District uh front yard is the same which is 25 ft 15 ft and then zero for commercial and 10 ft for residential so in this overlay formula restaurants would be prohibited um formula businesses up to 2 25 uh sorry 1250 would be um permitted anything above that would be a special exception use which would be subject to the same criteria as I shown before front standards the same and then this is this was changed since the last meeting which um um this just shows based on the road that you're on what's allowed for the frontage type or Frontage standard um primary streets would be toquer Drive Bridge Road Old Dixie Main Street and Village Boulevard and anything else would be a secondary Street what are the examples of frenti types you have shop front Stoops porches for courts um balconies and then you have arcades and then what we'd like to see as far as Landscaping um um the code was beefed up last year for landscaping um and that included more landscape for the landscape buffers um but what we actually are including is Civic open space which you may be familiar with before so Civic open space would essentially require a property to designate a particular area for um Civic open space um and that would be for essentially the general public and improve pedestrian environment aesthetic pleasing and um serve as an amenity to the Village so what we're proposing is that new developments or additions of gross floor area of 20 equal to 20% or more of an existing building that they'd be required to provide Civic open space which would be equal to about 5% of the total site and that landscape buffers if they have one in the front or the side may be reduced for um no greater than 25% on each side so what's an example of that um and this was actually brought up last time and I'll show you afterwards what we came up with afterwards if it's a smaller site then they'd be required if they have give or take about 11,000 square ft that they would be required to have about 578 Square ft of Civic open space however if it's a bigger property such as Village Square that they um be provided to have about 12,000 ft of Civic open space so if we decide that you know a property does not need to or you know that the village doesn't want to require someone to have a Civic open space um area on their property they may do a payment and loop so what's the payment and loop so realistically if they want to kind of deviate from that Civic open space requirement they would be required to have an assessment provided based on market value um and it would be based on the area that they would have for the Civic open space so let's say for example if it's 10,000 ft that's required then they would pay the Village um the market value of that 10,000 ft and then the village would allocate that for um Acquisitions of parks or um land or anything to that um extent um and the council would consider whether or not this Fe andl would be the best uh best serve the purposes of the village and also um I'm going to touch on this shortly but we also are including a waiver portion of this so if someone decides that they want to do a waiver and the waiver is for x square feet or X percentage that they'd like to do anything that is not included in that waiver they could do the payment in Li to pay the rest of that that area so parking in the rear um as we mentioned we like to encourage parking in the rear um discourage as much parking um surface parking as you can so they can do shared parking with um their neighbor or or part of a plaza or whatnot then we'd encourage that we'd like to have the facades fronting the roadway rather than be pushed back further these are just the graphics for um rear parking you have figure one which would be the building fronting the two primary streets figure two building fronting primary and secondary and then building I mean figure three which would have the building fronting primary streets secondary streets in an Alleyway so this was actually included we we we wanted to include something pertaining to just plain walls and plain buildings um so we'd have some type of building facad and facade transparency so um what we'd like to include which is facade transparency the definition was actually added into this propos code and it pertains to the amount of the transparent light and windows that are on like a frontage type or Frontage um uh Street Frontage and then Also it talks about that the glass windows or other approved opening would eliminate this you know Blake plain Stark wall so we're trying to encourage more you know um Aesthetics so waivers as I mentioned so in this particular case a waiver which is going to be touched upon is different from a variance the waiver would be something that an applicant would request to the Village Council within a site plan application and what they would do is that waivers cannot be used for increasing of height height increase it of density or intensity or it cannot add uses to the um to that particular overlay or or area so let's say for example um I don't know shopping centers is not allowed for whatever reason in one particular zoning District or overlay um they can't submit a waiver and say I want to add shopping shopping centers to this overlay um and this would also be required or requested to the Village Council so you guys would have some teeth to say we don't want this waiver similar to you have for variances or special exceptions so what are the differences so a variance is a relief from the code similar to a waiver however variances are associated with essentially their land hardship so let's say you have a I don't know circular shaped lot or triangular shaped lot which is different from other Lots within the village and you have a hardship that you can't build your your building similar to everyone else then that would be considered in a sense a hardship a land hardship um and they're typically granted based off of that um whereas a waiver a waiver would be granted as I mentioned they're Associated usually with like puds and they're for development more so rather than the actual land structure of building um they would run in conjunction with the site plan and as I mentioned they wouldn't be able to add any uses increasing of density height intensity um or height and then both of these applications are required to be approved by elected officials or Village counsel so what are the next steps so if this propos proposed code um is sufficient with the Village Council then it move forward to LPA meeting followed by two hearings with this Council and then it would be potentially adopt and that is the end of my presentation thank you Lance council do you want me to go last anyone can go first without L thank you Lance whoever wants to talk first yeah I just want to make sure um in the US1 Corridor formula restaurants are permitted but any formula restaurant over 1250 Square well still have that 1250 special use yes okay my question for now I just had one I don't know if I'm jumping in I apologize I uh hard to kind of hear everything Lance said on the mic but I and I know there was a rationale to the 1250 but how did we come up with that as the threshold is it like based on you know the average of you know certain commercial spaces within the village or that based on a prior a separate code or where did that come from again um hey Patrick it's trick um I think it came from my suggestion um because our current our current code is like 5,000 or 10,000 square ft and trying to maintain the fabric and again not precluding or prohib hibiting you know a formula restaurant but really having them have that special use approval uh just to kind of we can kind of keep our fingers on top of what's coming in and what it looks like and things like that so more more my suggestion no no okay yeah no okay I love it so the idea the idea is it's it's low enough and if we if we were to look at you know the existing spaces with in the village obviously we don't know what what could be built or what could be um enlarged yeah that we feel that that gives us an adequate amount of I don't want control it would would trigger either a variance or a waiver in most situations based on what's currently available in the village particularly the quest drive noal so no waiver would be granted um are you saying if it's not with allowed in that particular overlay or are you saying if it exceeds that threshold I'm saying so like like the formula of business is that if I remember correctly I don't have the I'm driving the for me but if it's if it were uh formula not rest 1250 sare ft or it if it's 12250 ft or more on seested drive then they would have to se a variance but if 1250 ft or left on or it's oned Drive period if it's form of buiness that would have to come in for variance the way I had it was everything that exceeds 1250 or above would require uh special exception use um approval so special excep sorry yeah it it would require council's approval essentially okay okay all right now that was my main question sorry I didn't mean to jump in yeah my no it's quite all right yeah my intent of that square is just to give us a little bit more control contr that was the intent and I just kind of picked a random figure just CU thought of what what a small house would be and I thought I I don't know what a typical Bay is like in the public Plaza or anything like that but so I just put I threw that number out because gives us some control because before I think it was 10,000 or 5,000 didn't see anything we didn't see it before then so now at least we can see almost everything that comes in well that I mean that was one of my questions as well um that council member painter brought up because I do I want to make was their assessment in each district to kind of figure out you know the average square foot of you know leasable space or spaces where maybe this would apply to make sure it's reasonable to like you said give us you know make sure we're getting what we want in protecting the village and the fabric of the community and the business but making sure it's reasonable for each district based on it's going to change you know things can be demolished and rebuilt but you know it was is there any kind of research done there and then also just from a legal standpoint I don't know if we need to be a little bit more have a little more you know study or backup to make sure those Square footages are reasonable or if it from a legal standpoint doesn't matter so we have not done that yet but we can do that um when we bring the code forward for adoption we'll we'll give some examples of different sizes of local businesses so you get a feel for what you know what what is you know of a certain size we did um and I I'll cut into we did do a little bit of analysis about outside um so just to give you guys some perspective the Burger King and Jupiter because I know we were talking a little bit about food and fast food the Burger King in Jupiter is 3,300 square fet Burger King and Stewart is 2800 square F feet the Taco Bell which usually the smallest footprint of any fast food is 2200 square ft Wendy's and Jupiter's 2600 Square ft so we did some analysis of just looking at what potential uses that you know Council may want to have a say of where where they go um because they do have drive-throughs and you know have the impact so from a small standpoint as far as going through all of our you know all of our buildings and we can do some kind of analysis I'm sure before the next but I think those that that gives you a little perspective on 1,250 sare ft um I had the same concern that Patrick and Molly brought up uh it's in my notes the um uh it's you know I'm not opposed to the concept but I do remember saying to Rick when he first brought it up that I wasn't sure 1250 was the right number um but in that vein the U I think what we need to do to be on Solid Ground And I tested it today uh with the C1 zoning District um if you if you dig deep into the property appraisers data for a particular property most of the time you're going to get the square footage of that business I would think we are in stronger better standing if for example we know the average square footage in C1 average square footage in C2 average square footage in C3 because what would we do if the average is less than 1250 or what would we do if the average is greater than 12 uh yeah 1250 I don't know but um I'm just at this juncture I'm just thinking about what would be the proper way to seek the proper number for which uh special exception is required so I had that in my notes as well my thoughts since we're on that particular topic I like that it's kind of a low number I am fine if we want to pull the data like if we look at our different shopping centers and those overlays what's the smallest space sizes because there are formulas that will get creative and they might come and for me we're not saying no if it's going to be larger than 1250 it just means that the public has to be notified and they need to come talk to their Council and Council needs to make the decision on behalf of the people and that could or could not change the feel fabrication of the village so for me I'm okay with it being a low number because again Council whoever is up here would not say no it's not a flat no problem is we get stuck with this code and it's always a it has to be it has to be why can't it be there to bring that conversation between the person coming in and the council and the people but I wouldn't mind if we pull what's the smallest space um and then that's another thing sometimes they buy couple spaces knock out the walls so again they could come in and say we're getting this small one and then turn around I don't know I don't like the games and I don't think that's fair to our people um I'm fine with the small number CU again it's not saying they can't be here it's just saying you have to come have a conversation with the village and being transparent that's kind of where I sit with it right now what else you got you want to hear the rest you want this is it I don't know if Rick no I'm I'm good I'm good I CU it's probably some the same one um let's see a lot of the comments that are in the backup um for uh the things that we would put for trying to remember how I wrote it uh the things that we list for uh uh the uh requirements for these formula uh businesses or restaurants many of the comments look like special special exception criteria to me as opposed to describing what a special exception is U now I noted that on your slide you did use the word criteria um but that would probably fall he will uh Keith will likely look at your list of your the way you've written it and he'll probably say well that's more like criteria and then he will stick it either in a criteria section for that or put in uh section 78- 363 um I believe so it does say for for example formula businesses and even for formula restaurants it says formula business then it says 1251 ft or more subject to the following conditions so that's why we put it as criteria because um they're subject to those conditions so it's kind of in a sense synonymous but um the special exception criteria is its own umbrella so that's why we put it as the first one of um letter a proposed formula business shall comply with the requirements from Village code section 78 363 and 364 because that's the special exception criteria so one they'd have to submit a special exception use which is already one process that you have to have and then also when they're submitting that they would have to answer these criteria to you guys and say this is what we're doing and this is how we're meeting them from the special exception process and from the formula business process that makes sense what led me down this path was uh I when I read it I said well this this looks like special exception criteria a lot of it and then I went and looked at 78- 363 and just in my opinion the special exception criteria that are are standard for today extremely weak very weak you could anybody could crawl out of that wet paper bag I'm just telling you um but keep that in mind I mean if even even some of the things that we're saying will become special exception criteria for anything over 1250 in a set zoning it's uh a lot of it is just subjective um and it and it could be problematic so I'm just raising that flag right now for everybody to look into or think about if I can interrupt on that topic um I so I think my I Envision no matter what the size of the formula restaurant or business they would have to comply with those you know aesthetic architectural considerations so why is it suggested just for a a one of the businesses that or restaurants that is falls under the special exception so as you know um when business come in we would do our you know Dr RC and we review things for Aesthetics and whatnot once again this is just more so more teeth for Council um so if Council for whatever reason doesn't like the Aesthetics of it um it gives them the abil or gives you guys the ability to say you know I'll approve this um formula business formula restaurant or whatnot however you need to change X so it's just giving you more teeth um I mean we can always amend this based on your direction but we thought that this would assist Council in a sense to you know get more teeth Aesthetics yeah which I think is great my personal opinion is it should apply to any formula restaurant in business not just the ones that have to apply for the um special exception but maybe you have a counter there for me I I think the only way that you could do that is by forcing them to come to you I I don't know as as staff I don't know how I'd be able to apply those criteria if someone was just coming in for business tax receipt I mean isn't that isn't this the point of the commercial Corridor guidelines though to have these design guidelines just like we did for Beach Road like why why wouldn't it apply [Music] so a tough question to answer the only way I can answer it is realistically as Jay mentioned and and I get where you're going with this mayor um it's we as staff unless they're putting a building up tomorrow um they're already the conditions are already there like for example if they moved into Gallery Square North or something like that that's already a potentially 1100 or 1200 ft² area um we can't tell them to change that facade or change that building because it's already there right so go ahead sorry no I follow that so what if it's what if it is something that uh can we tie it to that if it comes as like a site plan modification or site plan application that even if they didn't need the special use exception then those criteria would apply so can we word it like that so if we do see it that criteria would apply because I totally yes I agree with what you're saying if they go and you know um you know where Lighthouse Art Center is and they go in a tenant space there you know Republic is a tenant space here they're not going to alter the facade of their tenant space but yeah maybe thinking more if if it's something that we're going to see um planning zoning and or Council that we would have the opportunity to implement those which are kind of like you said the eye of the beholder guidelines um we could do that no matter what the size of the formula restaurant or business we cl to it that actually ties into one of my questions I wanted to confirm with you I know at one point in our code it's stated that like neon signs are not allowed in the village I know backlit signs sometimes and trademark businesses are allowed to have their corporate design such as like West Marine they get to look like West Marine that shopping center does it all but the rest of them all matchy matchy is that still all on our code yeah so that's all based on uniform sign code so for example when uh um what is it Village Square or one of those come in um at the site plan process they have the ability to put together a uniform sign code and that's approved by Council that's really tied in with the development order so yes that for me helps guard us from a lot of the formula restaurant often times they'll come in with those kind of Aesthetics and in the window they'll have a lot of like the Neons and I know in the past past past we had to address that because there were some businesses on to Quest to drive that were putting Neons in the window and resins were getting upset because they were on all night and it started to look a little like North Lake I remember North Lake wording was thrown out a lot so I just want to make sure that's kind of there CU for me that helps with the formula restaurant there's no proposed change to the Villages sign code based on what we're talking about I just want to clarify so we all know is there um um so one comment that I have that's not in my notes was I actually thought that in it when it came to businesses we were not going to uh prohibit or restrain formula businesses anywhere on US1 that that just might have been my mistake but um that's how I thought we had left it but and there nothing has been prohibited all we did was we put a threshold as far as the um the 1250 yeah correct so it's not nothing's prohibited it's just there's a threshold for you for an applicant to go before Council um well I guess the right way to say that I didn't know there's going to be the 1250 threshold for formula businesses on US1 that but that that could be just an oversight on my part if if Council feels that that should be we can always change yeah it's up it's up we're just looking for any direction that you um could provide us with I understand um so you know starting on page one you have the diagrams where you know you show the bird's eye view of the road the sale the sidewalk the property the setback etc etc and then that that type of diagram goes on throughout the document I have this question for you does what it is that we want get harmed in any way if there's not a swell every picture depicts a Swale but there are places in these overlays that are they don't have a soil so I'm wondering does it affect the intent of what you desire when there is no Swale I don't know the answer I'm just throwing it out and you don't have to answer it this very moment the graphic was just showing if realistically if there was a s but if you notice on the right hand side it shows right of way in general so whe there's sale or um or just sidewalks it's it's the rideway so we're just kind of depicting what it look like whether it's sale or just the general rideway and how the building would um would front said right of away but if if there is a swell that's the Green Space today but if there's no swell that means there is no green space you follow yeah so that that's all kind of like the point I was making um okay in in regard to the fee yes the uh the Civic for specific land requirement I'm all in favor of the concept uh uh but I really think and if somebody touched on it I think somewhere in this tonight there uh we need to state in the document I think you verbalized it but it needs to be in the document that ends up that what the fee that we collect if we approve a fee in lie of the donated land or Civic land that they construct what will that money be used for there need and in my mind having dealt with these similar types of things there needs to be a Nexus between the U the fee and how that fee is used relative to the the uh the uh the Civic land requirement so I would suggest that it could be used to enhance or expand an existing Civic use or could be used to enhance or expand Village Recreation and open space and it's to me if you don't have the Nexus we're going to ultimately lose the battle somewhere along the line so right now letter C says um fees paid in Li a dedication shall be used for acquisition and or development of Village parks recreation and land systems and then it also says fees shall not be used for maintenance or operational cost so it's more so for um acquisition of more because I guess the rationale is is that if we're requiring them to designate a Civic open space to be used for the public the funds that's coming in is supposed to be used to acquire land or um create some type of thing so we're on the same page then that's that's what it yeah it's on letter c um so in that subject of uh waivers versus variances in the in the mixed use District who decides Planning and Zoning Board or councel approves the project when I say decides you're saying just in general or no who is the final stopping place that says yay or nay to a development proposal in mixed use is it the council or is it the pnz council okay all right and then um so this is kind of a general comment and it's the last thing are you still on waivers are you moving on from waivers cuz I have a waiver question if you don't mind go to the waiver I mean stay on the same topic um I am not sure about the appeals process on the waiver the way I read it it just seems like anyone can appeal it because it says an interested party so if we're going to offer an appeal process I think it needs to be a lot more defined and maybe a little bit more restrictive because it seems just very like anyone can just apply for an appeal unless I'm reading it wrong what page you uh page 52 of 965 I could have misinterpreted that's going to be a Keith question so it says the applicant or any interested party interested party is a defined term in state law in chapter 163 which basically means means you've got you've got to have some um you've got to be impacted in a way that's greater than the general public maybe you're a neighbor I mean that that's the most typical example of an interested party but that that term and maybe what we can do is um clarify interested party as defined by section whatever chapter 163 section such as such Florida Statutes but that that is a defined term and that's a commonly used term when you're talking about who has app pellet rights in a quazi Judicial land use process okay see yeah adding the reference to statute might help and then um I mean I guess I'm still on the fence with appeals process altogether I mean do we have anything else in our community development realm that we allow for appeals usually variances are strictly speaking any quazi judicial order can be appealed to the Circuit Court okay but but yeah well this is being appealed to the Village Council that's a okay this this is this is sort of a this this process administ right now code mistake from Lance and I on that one um we took this from the North Palm Beach um waiver section that we'd put in our code there and the waivers were decided on the by the Planning Commission there and so they could get appeal to the Village Council good catch we will we'll clarify that here okay so noted ask like this just seems a little like anyone yeah you will be you will be the final decision making stop at the administrative level and then any appeal from here will go to the ciruit so we'll just fix that language all right and then think it be strien actually that was my bad no problem and then um just confirming when a waiver would be Mull and voy because like um we talked about said variance travels with the land so if a new property owner buys that the variance travels with that so for the waiver it's just the project so would the waiver be null and void if you know that that building is demolished a new one built or would it be null and void if there's like x amount percentage of the buildings remodeled I mean how like how long does that waiver carry for another great question I I mean I believe it runs with the development order agreed so for example if a natural disaster destroyed part of the project and they wanted to rebuild the project exactly the way it was pre natural disaster in my opinion that waiver would still be applicable if if they wanted to come in and redevelop the redevelop the project or um or after natural disaster why why ever it was destroyed or damaged and they wanted to change it then you know the waiver could could potentially go away um kind of depends on what the waiver was for and but generally the waiver should be easier to get than a variance because it's not based on a on a non self-imposed hardship it's based on um Council thinks that waving that provision is in the best interest of the village as well as you know the applicant obviously thinks it's in their best interest and and it makes the project the better project um my concern is the other end of the equation is U while a waiver is easier to get than a variance I don't want everybody in his brother walking here asking for a waiver I mean there ought to be some something to make it just you know whe they just walk right in and ask for it you know and I I think the criteria we put in here gives the the council a lot of ammunition to make sure that what the waiver in order to to get the waiver you have to provide some sort of public benefit right it specifically says an applicant requesting a waiver shall demonstrate the waiver provides a public benefit including by way of example highquality architecture pedestrian amenities no cost dedication of Rightway Construction of public parking public art so there's a pretty strict criteria that they have to meet and and prove to the council that it's in the public interest to to grant that waiver it's not just you know hey you're asking for this waiver you can have it so you're okay for example if they ask for a waiver of X in the code a point x in the code if they offset that by improving some of these other things to a higher degree than what we require that that might be a valid uh yeah I mean an example would be if someone wanted to move the building a little bit closer to the street but provide money to enhance the streetcape right next to it so instead of providing that Landscaping in front of the building on their property maybe they they're paying a significant can amount of money to make a beautiful streetcape in the public realm so there's a lot of instances where you where we can and you can look at it and say that's that's a better outcome that the code didn't Ponder and you'd be vetting at first it's not like it's just right I mean the Community Development Department will vet these first and work with the property owner before it comes to us to make yeah and we do and we and there's certain things we you know we tend to know how the council would react to certain things what you were looking for and can try and attempt to negotiate those things in advance so that they are providing a public benefit right if we know that you guys that that the council is really interested in high quality architecture or you know enhanced Landscaping when they come in and have pre-application meetings that's what we you know we can say Hey you know hey you may want this little you know relief from this code section here you know I think you'd be a lot more successful getting that waiver if you did X Y or Z and also with the conceptual Pres presentation that's required they can also bring their presentation before you and then you can let them know you know they might say oh we're going to seek a waiver okay well now you know what they're kind of looking for you can give them your feedback on Aesthetics or what have you at that time so we have a lot of I guess avenues that provides Council the ability to um provide the developer or applicant with um more information through the process okay and then just C sorry real quick I want to close loop on the when a waiver will be null and void I I think it would be nice to have some kind of description on there um so maybe staff and legal can think about that cuz she like what if they build a building and we you know at the time the waiver made sense but like two years later three years later you know they add an addition to the building and so you know there's got to be something in there I think to Define I agree with mayor it needs to be clarified and actually your last comment on if they in the future make an addition that's what makes me nervous about the waiver this waiver process in general so all due respect my fellow council members I don't like the waiver at all um to be frun I think it's a cop out I think most of them are going to come looking for a waiver and knowing the pattern of what we've seen come through our conceptual I I think a lot of them are going to just want to throw money and solve the problem so some Logistics in the shet process a lot of residents really like the idea of putting a lot of the um Green Space into a Civic space rather than having it sprinkled where you really don't see it that was a big feedback from our actual residents that live here and pay taxes secondly why would they not want Civic space like what is the harm in having Civic space I mean they're already expected to do landscaping so I don't want to hear oh we're adding a little extra Lush let's throw a fee at this secondly no matter what the the FAS it says in here it has to be the appraise value shall apprais value shall be based upon the market value of the land in its present State I mean we're looking at the a value of the piece of Civic space okay for me that's a one-time fee you just said we can't use it towards maintenance we know the cost of value of these properties there was some properties that backed up to some of our parts and we looked at the value of those I mean a one-time fee isn't going to help us purchase those so I don't see that being a feasible argument I think that again that's just putting money towards something I kind of see it as how developers throw fees at the school district rather than helping solve some of those problems they just go we'll pay our fee so I have a hard time with this fee process for the waivers um I think if they're in a really bad hardship they can come ask for a variance and we could really look at that seriously cuz maybe there is a real hardship so I'm actually going to be fully opposed against the waiver at this time so I think the waivers and the pay and L of separate things or p l i don't like any so you don't like either I don't like any either okay I mean in the payment and L thing I mean it's a pretty common thing in other municipalities which of course doesn't mean we have to do it but you know there's sometimes where like for example the the property Lance showed which property was that there was V Square had to provide 12,000 ft you know someone that's redeveloping that might want to provide 8,000 squ ft and they're still providing some Civic space and they may have an idea to for a land acquisition project that's right next door where they say Hey you know rather than us provide this on our property we'd like to maximize our property and give you money to acquire property next door or provide an enhancement next door like for instance the the property on Cyprus right where the village wants to do that that project somebody could if there was a project near there prefer to donate into a fund to to make that a great facility rather than provide something on their property so just like the waiver process that fee and Lou they have criteria where they have to prove that it's in the public interest and public benefit to for it to happen so this this board does not have to approve it but there may come time time where it makes sense and so if you don't create a little bit of flexibility in the code then you're you're handcuffing you're handcuffing applicants but you're also preventing them from maybe doing something that this board would actually want to have happen and I I totally get all that I actually like that the I know there's details in it it listed but at the end of the day when I look at the actual factual numbers even that Cypress Pro property we have been given multiple times how much it would cost to make that beautiful just Landscaping we're not talking playgrounds sidewalks Pathways whatever between the sprinklers and the Landscaping it's not a pretty number so I mean I don't know how this payment in Li is really going to appeal anything that's just railroad track property that's not even a park so if we even look at the property that's on taquesta drive that's been up for sale multiple times then it comes down it backs up to one of our easements it's just west of Cypress it's on taquesta Drive yeah let's say taquesta wanted to buy that I know this was like two or three years ago that guy was asking like a million plus for that so again payment at Lou are we ever even going to hit any kind of goal line to purchase or you know acquire land so for me it's not it's just not feasible I don't see any you'd have to hold it in trust until you're ready to spend it I mean and that could take forever with the way Florida costs are going up the properties I they're not coming down we're not going to be spending 200,000 and from a kitty I just don't see how it's feasible I think we're just we're favoring them as how I'm seeing it right now unfortunately I see we have a parks and open space plan we put in place what last year when do we and so we haven't even come up with a way to fund that so I think you know a way to be able to contribute to that to fund and be able to actually utilize that policy that we have and I don't think it should be unexpected for us to you know set aside some funds well towards that policy so to me I see it a combined of fees we may or may not get with that option and money that the village puts in as well to to Really finally utilize that plan that we put together last year which I think I mean that was one of our strategic initiatives wasn't it it is and I I fully support that I just don't I don't think we should go down that road to seek funds for it do we have any examples just shot in the dark of what kind of a fee we would be looking at if someone came in I don't I can provide that to you so we know if we're looking at 100 Grand or less 5% of the assess value of the property is determined by the tax assessor right so I mean I could sit here and do it today it might be you know $50,000 tomorrow it might be $775,000 and that right there is my point that would take us forever to sit and save to buy a property to create a park or open space for our residents but it could also you may not buy it but if we decided to leverage and and and and take a loan to get a piece of property versus a bond issue or something like that I I think $75,000 going go a long way you know and I don't even know how much this is going to happen anyway I think giving people the opportunity to request you know F andl or or waiver I think again we doesn't mean so it takes a little bit longer in a meeting for us to to vet it out or Jay and and and Lance you know vet it out before it even gets to us I mean I don't know how much work how much we're talking or anticipating this adding to to the workload but I think having it as an option available to offer to somebody or to allow them to request um I we don't have to do anything we don't have to do any of them I know and I I like that we have some wording in here that's where I'm kind of stuck I like that we have some wording it gives us part of an argument to have some Logistics I'm just like Mr Bradford said I'm fearful that we might be getting a lot of those CU why not they could throw some money at it and call it a day and they can maximize their property and I know our village residents don't want that well if they all offer US money to give them a waiver that'd be called a bribe I don't like either one they kind of go hand in hand for the uh uh notice I said we ought to have the the Proviso of words that say that used to enhance existing Civic and or recreational but so for example Constitution park or tested Park might need a new thing ofama jig and you could use $75,000 to provide it because well that's what I say but that an improvement is different from maintenance so like the skate park that we just approved that's not maintenance right that would would that be considered an improvement and those funds could go even if I said that you're right it would be best based on history to make it be an improvement yeah so maybe just you could add that language to that an improvement so it's clear like maintenance versus improvements sure can I make a suggestion too I just remembered that we actually added this in because at the last meeting I believe it was Mr Bradford mentioned that it might be owner is to make someone on a small property provide Civic open space when that's a like if you guys look at 312 it's you know 11,000 foot property it'd be a 578t um you know Civic open space which is that really going to provide much benefit to the community and so it might be better that you know if five of those redevelop then you get a little bit of money into your Recreation fund so one option that we talked about doing that we didn't put in the draft code is you could cap it at a certain acreage so you could say that only properties under one acre or two acres can apply for this so if someone was doing a major Redevelopment like Village Square they are providing that Civic open space and that public benefit on their property so that's that's an option you could consider as well I would be maybe open to that option Molly I'm not totally did you have more I didn't no and I believe you had one more question so first of all Jay you said something in some of your comments you use the term development order is that the same thing as I would Define as a development agreement or are you talking about the permit now the development order would be the document that is generated as a result of you either approving or disapproving a variance or a special exception or a site plan there'll be there's an order an order that actually approves that the mayor signs that and that that's the official memorialization of the zoning Community Development approval and then then they would go to building and just to add on to what Keith said that also would include your conditions of approval so if you had a condition of approval whatever it may be that would be under development ORD that would travel with that that on particular I guess my question is leading to this question is when do we say we need a development agreement you don't have to answer it tonight I'm just saying well you know is there a threshold or is there you know acreage or something there's something in the subdivision code I think when when one is required that typically deals with um reserving um capacity for for water service and and um what do we call them erc's or erus residential units but but typically the developers agreement is when you got a brand new development coming in and they have to reserve capacity for water in it deals with everything that touches on that yeah we just we don't do those too often we just did one last month for I've done you know we've done we do them every now and then but they're not we questions on why was it a fiveyear agreement versus 10 or cash up FRS yeah that was water um anyway my last comment is this okay so the land area of the village of taquesta is rather small like what 2 square mil miles or something like that okay so we're touching on the mixed use District C1 C2 and C3 and we're putting in three overlays which are taking up a large portion of taquesta so here's my qu I'm all in favor of what we're trying to do so don't anybody take it wrong but would it be cleaner and easier for everyone to understand if we took all of this content content that we're talking about in placed that content in the zoning District that will that we are attempting to cover mixed you C1 C2 C3 that's that's all I'm saying might it be easier for the public to read might it be avoid the the maps with the hash marks and all I mean would it could it so coming in later in the process I've had similar thoughts too like is there a way to simplify it and make it easier one of the bigger challenges is that there are multiple zoning districts in each overlay and some zoning districts are in multiple overlays so it' be difficult to to sync up the US1 overlay and the the toqua drive overlay so I mean Jeremy and I have had conversations about this too it's we might be able to but it's it's difficult you you're smiling yeah we we've looked at it and then you also get into the the problem where for example you have the ones that are to the South right where Bridge Road is and a C2 um and the way that we have it written right now is that US1 was supposed to be that commercial thoroughfare where we'd have all formula businesses formula restaurants things like that over there um if you start opening it up and maybe you can put like except for these Parcels but then you're doing a lot of except except accept um because for example we have some C2 that's off of taquesta drive that's right there by Cypress um and then you have some my Bridge Road and then you have the one that's on um Fiesta area so it's a lot of spared out um C2 or mix use or C3 and it becomes a little bit uh I guess confusing in a sense yeah I'll will say I'm all for new ideas always but in my opinion on this one we've been working on this for a very long long time and we I mean the districts have morph too and I think Reinventing the wheel at this point um might not be the best idea for this specific topic my opinion the the I just checked with Lance before I mention this the only thing that you could probably do to simplify it is merge the TOA Drive overlay in the Village Center overlay into one because they're they're pretty similar in how they treat formula businesses and formula restaurants um so there there might be a way that we could do that so that you know instead of having three overlays you have two is it just like you have trouble seeing the because it's a lot of bright colors and there's lines there's some going this way is that what you're exing no so imagine you are a conscientious intelligent resident that's looking at the zoning District where they have a property interest and they start reading and reading and reading they think oh boy okay I got this I know what we got to do and then the overlay it says oh okay so most of what I just read is not applicable if it's in the overlay it's it's honorous is all I'm trying to say can we did we did sync up to make that a little more simpler we did sync up the uses in the different zoning District so it referred to the formula businesses and and the various regulations in the overlay because we were afraid that someone would come in and see that and say oh yeah I can come and open this business here in the C2 and then they come and get a BT and we say oh no you know you're in an overlay you can't do that so we did try and clarify that but the actual development regulations that are in the overlay so you know back in the day before digital was around we would take the base map and then you'd have your clear sheets that go over like literally you would flip through them there is a way to do that digitally where you have the base and then you click each district like if you want to look at I don't know R3 you click on that cuz your business is in there and then you click on R3 overlay and then it will show you exactly it would just be a couple clicks as an option maybe over I'm sorry does overlay show up on the property of appraisers in other words if it says C3 today would they say slash overlay that's a good question not to my knowledge yeah that's what I was afraid of yeah because usually every year the property appraiser will reach out and they'll ask if there's been any changes to the zoning they don't say to the overlay so you go on property appr usually will say for example C2 is this property I I haven't personally seen it say overlay X the good news is it's for commercial and businesses mostly not single family homes right so if it was single family homes there could be some real challenges there usually someone that's opening a commercial business or redeveloping a property is going to have somebody you know could be a real estate attorney or um you know commercial broker that's going to look into things a little bit more than someone who's just buying a single family home so ideally they'd come to us before they're opening a business or do some throw due diligence and find these things out because I mean it's not uncommon to have overlays I mean I there's certain counties you can look at them and half the county is in an airport overlay or CRA so it's not that uncommon to have have them all over the place well I think you guys are a good job I mean you added um you updated the zones in the proposed next Amendment here and I think even in the mixed use you define like if there's a conflict the overlay District override so I think you did a good job there but you know maybe just triple check and make sure um everything is picked up there but I think I think it cross references pretty well so it's cleared to anyone looking at the code that oh there's this overlay district and if it's here that overrides what it says here so I think you did a good job picking that up but maybe just a triple check make sure it's covered I don't want to take all the credit for that because you have a great attorney by by the way we do okay anything else Mr Bradford no okay vice mayor I'm good council member [Music] painter still with us no I'm good okay I just have a couple more quick questions um under the Civic open space that's less than 250 square feet um you it does uh allow you to consider like artwork right things mural sculpture so that kind of is almost like art in public places concept and a lot of men ities that have that actually have an employee in charge of that so they're reviewing the artwork making sure it's acceptable I mean what's the intent there who's going to prove the artwork and is there maybe an opportunity to like partner with local artists or you know Lighthouse Art Center to have someone review it because if we're going to allow that there's got to be some kind of review and yeah I'm not in the Arts so I'm not the right person my personal opinion I wouldn't use an art organization in the area because they are artists so they actually have a lot of love for maybe some not appropriate type public statues or sculptures but again as an artist you can appreciate it but being in a public space I almost feel like it maybe need to be someone works for the village to make sure it's appropriate for public or consultant I mean I know there's people that do that for other municipalities that they're not employ they don't love to go to Italy and see those wonderful statues but we used to have we used to have a community appearance board but we could give such a function as that to the Planning and Zoning Board if you wanted to that's true to have a stop I think there needs to be some kind of oversight there CL I agree we'll look at what uh I know Palm Beach Gardens has a pretty robust public art and public places program we can look into how they handle it all right I think Buon Beach does too maybe Wellington as well a couple who just a clarification before you go on while uh who do you anticipate the owner of this Civic property land now real property who will that be the Civic open space yeah they would have to maintain it as part of their development order typically so it's remain their land yeah okay so okay there's nuances that go with that I'm not going to talk about them right now I'll keep quiet and if we're going to go the art rout and Rick was at the league meeting I reported on a Case regarding government speech we want just let's talk about art and government speech and First Amendment stuff we need to make sure that we're we have that covered if if we put any of that stuff in our code he and then um can you remind me how there was Street Scapes recommended in the master plan how are we how are we addressing that or how are we to I mean you kind of alluded to it with a Civic open space I mean is there another way to kind of maybe make that a some kind of benefit like hey property owner if you enhance your streetcape you know to like our plan shows obviously we all know it's not going to be exact it's the guideline like just it needs to be addressed somehow I don't want that to just fade away because it's really important to us and I believe vice mayor uh vice mayor brought that up at the last meeting and we we looked into it and talked to Keith if we could actually mandate them to to do the streetcape for us while they're redeveloping properties which I believe Keith correct me if I'm wrong but I think you said there's you're not able to mandate someone do that but that's where the waiver process could come in where we say hey if you're going to ask these waivers we have this landscape project for Old Dixie we'd recommend you implement this if you want to get your waiver crant where those things would absolutely be brought to bear yes could we make it so that if they are taking the position that they want to donate money in Le of land for civic space that it could also go for uh Street Scapes as well as Recreation open space Etc I think we put that in there yeah I think as long as it's for improvements again and not maintenance I don't think that would be a problem okay that that'd be a good one to add in there too okay and then you had a recommendation for us to consider about exempting Palm Beach County or Martin County originated businesses yes um my gut is we should probably keep it even across the board but I think maybe give Council can give them feedback on that if we should include that or drop it off I'm not I'm I'm not clear on what your suggesting so in the presentation one of the considerations that staff gave to us was to allow uh businesses originated in Palm Beach County or Martin County to be exempt from the formula business criteria and so my opinion is no I think we should keep it stand across the board no I think that opens up a can of worms someone mentioned to me that Santa Belle does that that they have a form of business like we're doing but they exempt businesses that were founded in Santa Bell area and they suggested do we you know consider it here I mean for for instance so I was thinking of like if if blue L let's say Blue Line opened three rest uh three businesses around Palm Beach County and then wanted to come to Testa I mean I think that's a pretty beloved local business you know would we you know turn them down if they came in here or would we want to give them you know an opportunity to come in so so and I appreciate you bringing the you know this for consideration um but me palach county is massive and you know get a little South here and there's you know businesses that originated that are huge so I guess may I mean maybe make it by mile like you know within because it could be Hope Sound right it could be something that's kind of in the greater toqua area so maybe if it's within 10 miles of taquesta five miles just just a suggestion I find with staying away from that um so there is a little business from hopes sown that's coming into taquesta and that's their second location um again that's not a big deal for me I'd rather have them originate here and then go off and then we can actually take more pride in that like they started here our residents built their business with them and then they got to go grow I don't see it the reverse way I rather have to start here then go off it's just for consideration that's fine okay so we'll drop it yeah no one wants toy with that okay um I think I just have one more thank you for bearing with me on the zoning text Amendment portion under discontinuance of non-conforming uses I I wasn't clear that highlighted section that's in there about um site changes and you know after it vacated abandoned or discontinued for period of 90 consecutive days um then they would have to come in compliance right is that what that's saying and consent I'm like what about remodels or new construction it just the way it reads and this might be more legal question too so it's under Section 78-96 yeah so the reason why we put that under there is just because for example if a a business for whatever reason is vacated for um the 90-day threshold typically speaking then like if someone were to come in and they wanted to put the same business there since it's been discontinued this is already in the existing code um since it's already been discontinued then essentially they can't put that non-conformity there they have to put a permitted use there so we wanted to use the overlays for the same type of concept so if that overlay or if that particular business that was there was a form business or what have you and it discontinu for 90 days it'd be under the same premises or so for example when Park Avenue Grill was on US1 and then they vacated and it sat there for quite a while new business came in even let's say the new business that came in was formula they would have to yeah they so they would no longer be able to operate as the previous you they'd have to be a permitted use or go through the process to become a permitted use which would be special I I don't think the example of a renovation that's under building permit would would be considered a vacate abandonment they're they'd be under under an active as long as the building permit remained active they have communication that would be that would that would not be an abandonment uh there otherwise your your example is correct because that did sit there for a while we we have experienced that oh yeah in the village so the non-conforming use would kind of apply how it already does CU isn't there something that like a certain certain dollar amount or percentage like triggers them having to come in conformance so I guess my question is if it's in the overlay District what triggers them like I understand this concept but what would trigger them having to come into to conformance from the use perspective if they're abandoned for by more than 90 days so it's really it's pretty similar to the existing code we just wanted to clarify what's what's what's in the code all right and my last um question is the the whole us one East Side West Side is that I'm kind of envisioning it because I totally understand your tunnel concept I'm like okay well one side is all going to be like this other side's all going to be like that I mean is that have you seen that before is that normal because it just it seems kind of I mean I don't know what the right answer is there it's the tunnel normal cuz it's in the municipalities and you go down it's just no I understand your tunnel concept but then like to have the tunnel all one side the same all the other side the same of one street like is that going to look weird too I just no I wasn't expressing that I want them to be super matchy I was expressing we don't want them to be super matchy matchy cuz it is going to feel like you're going down the tunnel so they have an I wanted Council to see if we could give them an option so one could be this way one could be a little bit further back not all the way it's written and correct me if I'm wrong like I can't remember the one side the buildings have to be know close the street the other side with the parking hidden and the other side they don't right correct you're going to have like so there I I don't remember who it was on Council I'd have to go back but it was brought up because we were getting a lot of feedback about that white building on us one and residents definitely don't like the building right there so I think as a council we need to be responsible and make sure we don't create a whole block like that I think that in one way they've addressed address this in the future by the uh I forgot the terminology they the tearing well the tearing step back the glass thing the f I mean that building does have a bunch of Windows and I'm not knocking the windows right I'm just I think it's I think I'm I'm not saying your concept is wrong when I say this but I think it's unfair to conclude that a setback of less feet than we may have today is unacceptable because we have that blank uh mundane wall that we're having to look at on us one when in reality it wouldn't even look like that if they had just been required to have the front facade of the building fa the primary Street it would have all been a lot better but it it wasn't clear at the time and that's what we ended up with but um I know what you're trying to accomplish I just don't know what whether having one side all be you know one setback and another side be a different setback whether that's going to be strange well no and they have to come in for conceptual now that's part of our process and procedures and part of even looking at criteria for any conceptuals how is it harmonious with the surrounding properties so I mean if we end up with the property let's say these two are right up against the road we if Council and Village residents don't want a tunnel we can express them would you consider setting back because you're not harmonious we need to create a that's all I just want to make sure we are not not listening to the residents and we don't create a tunnel of buildings because we clearly were told by the residents they don't want to live in a tunnel right maybe you guys can cons look at that and come up with some other options CU I know on um Treasure Coast you know they did some conceptuals and was a fashion mall they you know they had like one building was up front but there was still some parking so they kind of had it staggered within that Plaza so maybe take a look at that and see what you can come up with because yeah I the tunnel concept might might not be good but then having like one side one way and the other side other way could just I think look really weird as well I I completely agree um and I think that there's probably an easier way that we could put some guiding language in the US1 overlay that's that that attempts to steer people from creating the tunnel effect during the design process so we'll we'll we'll kick around some ideas and bring some sample language back when we bring the code ad option okay all right and council member painer just want to check in see if there's anything else that you'd want to add no I've been listening to everything and um I have nothing else to add but agree follow the comment so I'm good okay so Council what's the opinion I know you know the next step would be LPA and then council do we think we need a workshop at one more time based off what was discussed tonight I got I only I only kind left because I know we've been kind of really going through this thing over and over again but it's interesting because our residents follow along and then they're getting involved and it's I mean again we can't ignore feedback we get so it's our job to give it back I think staff was listening very well I think Council gave a lot of different point of view um little things to maybe tweak I'd like to see it I don't want to Workshop it again but I'd like to see the corrections and tweaks and make sure it's what we were expressing well I think before go my opinion is I think I mean are you guys clear on the direction tonight do we need to revisit anything I I think we're pretty clear on it I mean there's some things that need to be worked out but we'll have two public hearings to work through those um and we'll be able to work workshop things through the LPA as as well that's what I was thinking cuz I mean we've I think we're really close I'm excited cuz I like this you know when I was R the like oh we're we're close like so I think it might actually be beneficial to get LPA comment at this point in time so okay and I know that these two staff members that are working on this they come to our meetings they hear the residents they see the conceptual processes they hear all the different feedbacks I I have a feeling I I want to say you guys are really getting a feel I know you've been here a while Lance um but I I have a feeling you're really getting a feel of what our Vibe is in tasta and the residents I know you hear the word small town charm all the time but there is a lot to that absolutely yeah and and also to final final thought is that we can at first reading if you guys don't feel comfortable going to Second reading you can also continue making changes right so there's a whole another set of breaks you can put on it are you good if we send it to L if we send it to yeah we just discussed that we think we're we're very close staff is clear on the direction and I think a work chion again we're at the point where it might be good at get LPA it's okay to with me to go to LPA council member painter are you good with that yeah that sounds good okay all right and then just for the record I would usually take public comment now but there is no public here all right and mayor just just I'm pretty sure we're going to be okay but in terms of process and timing keeping the back of your mind uh right now this ordinance would not require an economic impact statement because it falls under the ex one of the exceptions however there is a bill out there this year Senate Bill 1628 that would eliminate that exception and if that gets passed it would require an economic impact statement for this ordinance as it's drafted right now the effective date would not be till October 1st so I think you got plenty of time but I just want you to keep that in mind that that that that economic impact statement if this bill that gets signed into law would um would trip that after October 1st do you believe that the it's likely to be if it's adopted it's likely to be effective July 1 2024 i' say right now it's written as October 1st 2024 so I I I I'm not aware of any discussion to change that but I did want to at least put it in the back of your minds that that that is something that could potentially happen Reas them to go to LPA instead of workshopping yeah let's get it to LPA but if we hear anything weird out of tellest let's put the pedal to the metal I'll keep my eye on that for sure and keep you updated if there are any changes yep okay all right moving on agenda item three living shine presentation and consideration of code updates who is this Jay whenever you guys are ready in the back okay sorry I think I must have sent maryan the wrong presentation it's in the back app though so Council uh you'll remember this was workshopped with you back in May of uh 2023 um with the Jupiter Inlet District which part do you want me to stop because I guess I'm have to just scroll through it oh jeez that's it right h no keep no keep going this is the the other one there we go next slide please slide now it's just a presentation so sorry all right so what is a living Shoreline it's a um Shoreline management practice that provides erosion control benefits protects restores or enhances natural Shoreland habitat and maintains Coastal processes through the Strategic placement of plant Stone sandfill and other structural organic materials next slide um and what is Shoreline armoring so this is known as hard infrastructure so seaw walls bulkheads retaining walls are placed to separate land and water for protection against erosion um 14% of the us Coastline has been armored um that number is much higher in Palm Beach County you can see that it's between 50 and 75% and you'll see a later slide that shows how much of uh the taquesta area has been hardened uh next one so one of the problems with Shoreline armoring is that it creates a fixed point in relation to rising sea levels coastal flooding storm events um so this is a big challenge for resiliency and and storm events um you know one of the biggest issues is you know loss of habitat due to um you you know the ABR abrupt transition from the shoreline to water um and then also sea seaw walls eventually fail right I believe the average life is around somewhere between 30 and 50 years so where I came from in North Palm Beach all the seaw walls had gotten built right in the 60s and 70s and we're all failing so we were we were seeing seaw walls coming through non-stop so good news is Wayne Cameron our new building official has seen and inspected tons of of seaw walls um and I think that you know is happening a little bit inqua from what I understand and will probably continue to happen um as the The Village ages a little bit um next slide so living shorelines protect shorelines by improving stability and reducing erosion they're they're actually a less expensive and sustainable option to seaw walls um that's kind of a common misconception it's something I learned at a class I took recently and I'll show you some data on that um down the road so not only are they you know more environmentally uh good for the for uh the world but they're also um you know cheaper um they provide essential habitat for fish and other animals um they improve water quality and filter storm water runoff um they create feeding areas for waiting birds and encourage seagrass growth and reduce sediments and of course you know can enhance water quality which is an important issue around here next slide um here's all the benefits of um living shorelines compared to um traditional erosion control which would be a bulkhead um so a bulkhead just simply reduces the immediate shoreline erosion and reduces future whereas a living Shoreline does all of the the things that you see there next slide so here are the living Shoreline types so you've got uh a natural Shoreline on the top the second one is a rip wrap Shoreline which is kind of a partial living Shoreline you know RI wrap still does create some some sea life and and and provide some uh water quality enhancements and then the third would just be a seaw wall uh next slide so kind of similar to the last one so this shows what you know property would look look like with no living Shoreline one that's got a partial living Shoreline it's got a little bit of rip wrap it's got some some mangroves there and then the other one would be just a Pure Living Shoreline that's that's it's all Mangrove next slide um yeah just kind of highlights the living shorelines and how they support resilient communities um you know they store carbon um they trap sediments improve water quality um they're more resilient uh and they they Harden bulkheads next slide so here's kind of a cost comparison um per linear foot showing what what green or living shorelines would cost you know they can be you know often quite quite uh inexpensive compared to other ones versus armored shorelines where you have revetment Breakwater bulkhead and seaw wall or or retaining wall um next slide so this one is from um it's either Fort Lauderdale or Broward County where of course they have a lot of canals there unfortunately it's not it's kind of small but um it's got a at the top the cost comparison between a living Shoreline and a seaw wall so you can see that in in every instance um there's four different kind of property types um in every instance the living Shoreline actually works out to be cheaper than the seaw wall uh next slide so our comprehensive plan says that bulkheads and seaw wall shall be permitted only to stabilize Disturbed shorelines or to replace deteriorated existing bulkheads and seaw walls and that rip wrap should be placed at the toe of all replace bulkheads but of course it's kind of ambiguous it does doesn't really Define what's a St what's a disturbed Shoreline so it it would be a difficult staff interpretation if something came up related to that um there's some other policies that that say that you know we should cooperate with other local agencies to protect the resources of lahache river and Indian River Lagoon by participating in development of estrine policies that are consistent with present management um you know several things about water quality improvements within the comprehensive plan uh next slide however the taquesta code does not have any regulations regarding regarding bulkhead or seaw wall construction uh we simply defer to any required state or federal permits um the town of Jupiter did recently revise their Shoreline stabilization code to require some elements of living shorelines when people are doing Shoreline stabilization projects next slide so as you can see and as you all know you know there we share the locks hatchee River um and the IND River Lagoon with with Jupiter and and several areas so in some ways it it it kind of only makes sense to to kind of look at their code and and mirror it in ways that we can next slide so in 2015 the town of Jupiter adopted new regulations that required some elements of living shorelines to be installed when bulkheads or rment were replaced so nothing that they did was mandatory they're not forcing people to come in and create a living Shoreline in their existing property they're simply requiring them to do enhancements at they're replacing an existing bulkhead or seaw wall um they also created a shoreline stabilization exception map which exempts living shorelines requirements and canals due to their narrowness next slide so there's the exception map here is a study that shows how much of of the lock sahashi river is um you bulkheaded or rock or natural so you can see you quite a bit of test that is bulkheaded already but you know we do have some existing natural Shoreline to you know hopefully maintain and some rock uh as well next slide so Jupiter's code says that existing permited bulkheads may be replaced provided the location of the new bulkhead is within 18 in waterw of the existing permitted bulkhead but it says if the new bulkhead is higher than 3 feet above the elevation of the mean high water line then 100% % of the bulkhead shall be faced with rip wrap or mangroves uh next slide so here are some slides that show what bulkheads look like with rip wrap and mangroves next slide so Jupiter's code for revetment says existing revetments permitted or unpermitted may be replaced with a new bulkhead or revetment according to the following regulations that 100% of the bulkhead shall be faced with rip wrap or mangroves water word of the new bulkhead um Shoreline exemption map properties are exempt um it says that an existing revetment with clean materials can be reinforced with rip wrap but if you have a dirty you know revetment that doesn't meet the desired standards you have to actually remove it and put a completely new revetment in next slide so they un unarmored shorelines codes so these are Shor lines that are existing in their natural state um it says that 100% of the of a new bulkhead or vment um can be replaced with rip wrapp or mangroves um that's one thing that you'll see I'm going to propose here is that we don't allow people to come in and replace an existing natural Shoreline with a bulkhead or with revetment that we try and find a way to to maintain it in its natural state and and and encourage them to create a living Shoreline next slide oh here's my code recommendations so you know I think the town of Jupiter's done a lot of work on this they they've really spent a lot of time um they've actually tweaked their code a few times since it's been adopted um but I do think that there's a few things that we could probably do different than them one thing that I learned is that um the requirement they have that you only reply um put rip wrapping mangroves in when your bulkhead is three feet above the mean h high water line they found that people end up just building it at you know 2 feet 11 in so they don't have to put rip wrapper mangroves in so there's kind of a tweak or you know work around their Cod so I would recommend that we get rid of that so that there's not that you know loophole in the code um and then I would also recommend codifying that existing natural shorelines remain natural due to the variety of living shorelines techniques that we've you kind of looked at throughout this um the comp plan does kind of have a little bit of ambiguity where it says that that you're supposed to keep a natural Shoreline natural but it also says is it you know when it's um degraded or at risk of further erosion that you maybe could put a bulkhead or seaw wall in so I think we could could probably firm the code up and say that that that's not an option uh and like Jupiter um we propose excluding canals from our living shorelines Rec uh regulations and the next slide shows so these are the the canals within the village so these would be exempt from these regulations just due to the narrowness it's it's just owner to make people do stuff and that is the end of my presentation I forgot to mention we we did Workshop this with the EAC in December um they generally like the ideas you know had a few questions when it came time to you know crafting a code and you know they kind of wanted to you know maybe another bite at the Apple to provide some input um but they generally like the direction that the recommendations were heading down happy to answer any questions thank you Council um thanks Jay um the requirement the recommendation to keep natural shorelines always to remain natural what if there's a um what if there's a a pressing issue or something what if just natural erosion then they start losing their property I mean should do we want to eliminate that opportunity because I mean yeah they get because what I don't know I'm trying to think what if the the the shoreline just erodes and now they're losing they're losing their backyard and we're saying well it's got to stay normal it's got to stay natural I mean is that so it's a a great point and my suggestion would be if the board doesn't want to do that or has a little bit of heartburn about making that a hard and fast rule you could create some process where the council can grant that so in North Palm Beach we had something called a fill permit and anytime you wanted to extend water word of an existing seaw wall you had to get a fill permit from The Village Council there were situations where it made sense um we had people that would come in and fill existing um natural shorelines because of erosion issues or because their neighbor had done something on their property that impacted their natural Shoreline um but it gave the council you know a you know an opportunity to to grant that but at the same time perhaps the council could say you know could could work something out where you say hey have you considered doing some living Shoreline so um I I would love to see us you know to have it all be natural living but I just think to take the ability to stop something from happening is would be a concern that I have and I don't know what the right answer is but um I want them all to be living but there may be a reason why you need to put up a bulkhead or rip wrap or something yeah I just I think the the comp plan language right now that we have is is ambiguous so I I I would have a hard time enforcing it if someone came in and said and so I'd like to find a way to to codify it if we can um okay or give or give counsel an opport opportunity to to Grant it based on some criteria um but it's tough at the staff level to make that call if there's really nothing in the code understood Rick are you talking about in an emergency situation or like say a flood has occurred or hurricane has come in and they yeah lost lots of land and they got ongoing water coming down the yeah like like like like a a hurricane came in and washed away everything that was there right and took 25 feet of their property they're like you know global warming climate change going we I want to go back out to where it was before and which they might want to make it but somebody might say you know what I got to put up seaw wall typically what would happen in a case like that in an emergency they would uh be allowed through a quick process probably an emergency permit process to put sheet pilings in to delineate their property and then when things settled down they would be allowed to come back in and put fill in but this particular hypothetical property owner uh could also now that his property's been stabilized he could also Avail himself of rip wrap and mangroves if he had nothing prior to this event well keep in mind that that would they'd have to get a permit from Army Corps and I mean so if there was never a wall there and all of a sudden they w a wall emergency or not I mean that's a pretty lengthy process and that would I mean that would have to get approved by Army Corp as well Ian could ADV on that they can't just go if they have an actual showing they can't just go based off our code and put in a wall there because they they have a perceived problem so I mean there are yeah I think Army Corp I think Army Corps has jurisdiction over the lakew worth Lagoon and then I think DP um through the lockah hatchee just at the boat ramp I thought yeah do you know if it's a structure usually with their jurisdiction i' have to look probably the inter coal it's the I think it's the inter Coastal either way DP Army Corps so they can't just be putting a wall on if there wasn't one there before there's last studies that need to be done for that but I agree with you like something maybe more defined or because I understand what both you were saying leave them hanging out to dry yeah but I I I think it's it's great I think it's what the community wants and you know we should really do everything we can to to make sure that our code is you know that we're supporting what I think 100% of our residents would want let's keep the river clean and safe and it's what our EAC is ultimately charged with I think everybody on that would want that so um for me the um I think this is a great thing it's an overdue thing I think it's obviously in keeping with the quest's comprehensive plan which kind of says okay it's okay to go forward with something like that um I'm okay with the town of Jupiter code however there's things in their code that you know that was provided as backup that deal with matters unrelated to bulkheads and shorelines like you know the size of a boat the size of the dock the set whatever ours are and whatever you recommend is okay for me I'm not so what I'm I'm not pretending to know what our code is but I wouldn't want to do away with what we have and by suggesting to you that I'm saying that every aspect of that the backup is applicable to to what we should do I'm also in favor of the uh exemption for the canal areas the one in the country club and the one the two or three streets whatever they are on country in Country Club Point U I think it's great you know uh I um I've been involved with the instances in Palm Beach where the uh the the bulkhead is failing and it was an average of $1,000 a linear foot back then so I can't imagine what it is and um uh so we would put like parth three golf course you may have heard me say this we put uh rip wrap in front of the Buckhead and then we planted the mangroves and it's just extended the life and and it's been great for many many it's probably been 25 years since we put those uh uh the rip wrap and the mangroves in front of the bulit we did put new tiebacks yeah uh to to help extend its life but uh that's a much better environmentally uh conscious way to protect your property in my opinion so I'm all for it B basically so my first option would be absolutely have anybody go back to living Shoreline um you know and as a native Floridian and us as Council as elected officials to help Florida stay alive and maybe go backwards and renourish it because it's not getting any better I think it would be encouraging if we put something in place to try our best to go back to a living Shoreline is it going to go back perfectly no the things I've seen even like in the Bahamas and the keys with those bulkheads they they don't do well and maybe a big part of it is because they don't really absorb wave energy either so when we get these storms and we all see they're not getting better they're just getting more complicated so I almost wonder the canal people are different CU it's such a narrow path anyways right and I've thought about the property line because just like the beach it'll change but they have a property line on their property so if you measure from the farthest property line if they ever felt like they were losing their property I would imagine they can absolutely have a measurement done a survey and if it comes back that it's x amount of feet below where your next property line is they could apply for a fill readjust I find that to be a solution now people who in our village are very exposed wide water areas most of them have bulkheads but if they ever get to the point where they have to replace it I would encourage probably even the middle one with the rip raft only because it's more exposed with the wide water and the Boating going by I would much rather see the mangroves outside of the rip wath because again for me that just beneficial to them that's just more wave absortion so but I get for the properties that are much more exposed to The Wider water areas or the heavier boat traffic or where where the inlet could be and it comes swirling in with the storm Surge and everything I mean I wouldn't be opposed to letting those residents with staff's participation look at having some stronger rip ra to help absorb that um but I absolutely support the best we can go back to living Shoreline cuz really there's no downside really unless you had damage and it was just an easy got another cop out just an easy just close it off close it off so if you guys think you can pull it off I'm all for it because there's only so many handfuls of our properties that all on this area yeah council member painter yeah um I mean generally I I'm fully in favor of going towards a living shore line or some other Shore hardening other than a seaw wall um both from an aesthetic and functionality standpoint I I think it's much better the question I had and I think I knew the answer but I just want to make sure um so if there was an existing seaw wall that needed repair I think pursuant to the Jupiter code that we would be somewhat mirroring or totally mirroring they could repair the seaw wall but it would still and effectively put in a new seaw wall but they would have to they would have to face it with rip wrap or mangr water workor but the the seaw wall itself could be repaired or is that completely off the table with adoption of a code like this you're you're absolutely correct so they can replace it 18 in water word of the existing bulkhead and then they would have to line the exterior of the new seaw Waller bulkhead with with either rip wrapper mangroves or some combination and that would be an absolute requirement under this new code correct okay no I I like it I uh I think ultimately it's going to be better for our waterways and maybe the people don't realize that now um they're maybe coming from elsewhere but they will eventually so I think this is be a great step in the right direction Patrick I think you make a great point I don't think they realize the ones that are coming that are not familiar with Florida sea life and waterways yeah yeah they probably see it as like messy and there's more plants that might have to deal with rocks are rep place but the real is it's the longevity is probably greater than that I mean according the studies is greater than that a or so I love it I think it's is great to that point when we when or if we adopt this we'll we'll try and find some literature that we can hand out to the public to highlight some of these things to do so there's kind of an educational component of it um so that people you know aren't kicking and screaming when they come in and have to do this yeah I wonder if juper Inlet District would like partner with us on that to get you know the information out since their pilot project there has been really successful so far at the Lighthouse so yeah um they're a good resource everything okay what happened okay I woke her up all right um kind of along the lines of what council member painter was talking about so um so say you know people replace ballheads they have to put you know rip wrap Andor mangr in front of it I mean it's gonna probably you know increase longevity of the bulkhead but at the end of the day it's probably still going to have to be replaced one day are we creating any kind of weird implication that when they finally have to replace the bulkhead but there's all these rules with the mangr which I'm not an expert on I mean are we creating like a a difficult situation there that's a fantastic question I'd have to ask Jupiter about that I would assume that they've they've dealt with that a Keith can you have you have you encountered that I have not but that that is something we would want to chase for sure yeah I mean I do think that the the seaw wall life extends significantly when you when you add the living Shoreline outside of it so I'll I'll also research what that because it could be 100 years right it could change it from 30 to 50 to 100 years um but I'll I'll do some research on that that's a great question okay and then um have we consulted with a coastal engineer I I know we had the engineer I can't remember who it is that did the uh living Shoreline for the do ditch and then I can't remember who jup Inlet District used but have we consulted with anyone just to make sure that you know this is in the right direction we haven't but um I'm happy to if if if you would like me to yeah my opinion is it's a big deal and I mean I don't know if that's like we have to get a formal proposal and bring on a consultant to review it or if you know it's just a peer you can call someone and I don't know how that would work and within the realm of what you know our rules and regulations but it might be worth it or maybe talk to Jupiter like maybe they did have a coastal engineer review everything um I did meet a coastal engineer at the living shorelines class I took and she's really excited about it works at kimley horn um I I'm happy to pick her brain cuz she she was very interested when I said that what we were doing she was interested to learn about more about it so I could just kind of informally pick her brain but I'll also you know talk to Jupiter and and try and run down some other sources as well okay so Molly are are you primarily interested in learning what problems may exist by putting rip wrap and mangroves in front of an existing ballhead for when like for when you have to replace the bulkhead for when you have are we creating any kind of issue or difficulty there with the rules and regulations of what you can and can do to mangr so like I'm not I mean I'm 100% course me I'm the one that brought this forward to begin with so like this I am all for this but I think we just really need to make sure we you know cross te's out the eyes um make sure we're not creating any difficulties that are unforeseen and one thing one possible thing is and I pose it as a question to Jay and you'll all know what I'm talking about is can a homeowner trim their mangroves like you showed a photo of a I thought is perfect because he showed a bulkhead going down a body of water and you could see the rip wrap and you can see the mang and the mangr are trimmed perfectly at the height of the top of the bulkit but in order to keep that periodically you got to trim the mangroves so the question is can Mr or Mrs homeowner legally trim mangroves I don't know the answer off the top of my head but I believe you have to have a licensed arborist or landscape person do it I I I think that Joe Blow can't just go out and do it on his own but I'll I'll confirm that as well yeah there may be stipulations but generally yes you they're they're allowed to do certain certain maintenance on their mangroves yeah we talked about that when we did a variance for Seaglass for their dock across you know the street and I from what I remember that was something that we made a requirement but it they didn't necessarily need to have a professional but and again that's why you need to consult the expert I this is not factual like I I'm speaking of what I believe to be the case is you can like trim x amount it's a certain like there's yeah so there's there's rules regulations for that so and then I just like trimming aside though I mean I like when you replace a bulkhead whether you do it water side or landside it is extremely disruptive so if there's mangoes there you're taking mangr out like period in the story so like that's I'm saying like is there any what's the ISS any you know issues we Crea in there um you kind of touched on this the conservation element uh from the comp plan policy 2.1.8 would that need revised or Revisited with enacting this or is that just so vague in general it's okay as written I think it depends on what's adopted um so yeah I mean if if you if if the council wanted to outright prohibit people from converting living shorelines into bulkheads I think that that provision would need to change that's what I was thinking conflict there but you know based on councilman sir tor's comments I don't know that that that the board is is is open to that idea which one am I do I need to look at again 2 yeah the first one 2.1 okay yeah depending on where land I feel like there could be a conflict and that might have to be updated so I guess we'll just track that it basically says that a bulkhead and seaw wall can only be permitted to to stabilize a disturbed Shoreline or to replace an existing one so if someone had a natural Shoreline that was not um Disturbed in any way they would not be able to to put in a bulk CAD or seaw wall under that under that code well but but again the you stabilizing a disturbed Shoreline I mean that's that's subject to all kinds of interpretation I think probably just making sure those you'll probably advise on that making sure wherever we land it recover absolutely um and uh do we have I don't believe we do maybe we do do we have a top of wall or cap elevation requirement in our code we do not so is that b like that's FEMA or EP or Army Court like who dictates that I do not know that answer because I'm used to having it in my my code in North Palm Beach and Jupiter Jupiter has it and other municipalities don't so that's also something I wanted to to raise in future meetings with you guys is do do you want us to create standards for bulkheads and seaw walls because right now there is none in the code yeah I would say yes but because I am used in in and like especially down in Brower too they all it's in their it's in the municipalities code yeah typically so um CU yeah when you Jupiter that loophole I was like why would you lower your seal like what even was lower living shine but and then you're actually putting less of a living Shoreline for a lower see well like that makes that's makes no sense at all to so you're just allowing that water to come on in so I think yeah maybe separate efforts but I mean whatever it counts I guess I'm just surprised we don't have any I was very surprised when I was looking at the code the first time mind bogling yeah especially with like just storm precautions and stuff that's really well with sea level rise and more and more watercraft in the river I would think that it behooves us to to do exactly what you're thinking about doing yeah and if you want the in North Palm Beach we hired a consultant to craft that code and they B B on future sea level rise projections for the seaw wall elevation so some of that work's already been done if if you want to just kind of copy it and mirror it I'd be open to it but it depends upon budget and whatnot and Jeremy's approval Etc be no budget I could just copy and paste it and oh that's that's well can't beat that I mean is that something we could just add of this and then if we're Consulting with the coasta engineer the size I'll bring it back when I whenever we dra have a draft of living shorelines code I'll bring back the the seaw wall cap height stuff and we'll keep them separate so if you decide to we could maybe roll it into an ordinance and then bring them in together or you can you know separate them out but I'll I'll I'll work on drafting something up okay all right any other Council comments you listed in the in the document there were correct I'm wrong but you uh materials being wood vinyl and etc etc but not steel that wasn't on the list but it is common to use steel isn't it okay all just want to make sure so just while we're talking about sea balls we had um a property on the west side of Testa where it was even during just the king's Tides it wasn't even a storm the water came up over the bulkhead SE seaw wall and the property didn't exactly absorb it but it flooded the back of the property and the water didn't really have anywhere to go so if it was a living Shoreline even with big rip ra I mean eventually it has somewhere to go through the cracks and go to and then your tide during storms would go up and down but the problem was once it went up over it had nowhere to go other than just to sit and wait to absorb into the grass right so I've seen that before and then the water can't get out through the seaw wall just it just sits there which just soften that property well it's going to happen no matter what cuz outfalls are backed up I mean there's really for that where it can go to as this why we're doing our vulnerabil vulnerability assessment right it's all tied together all right any other Council comments questions no ma'am and then so are we do you think we need to Workshop this one more time or what if you want to we could we could bring it back in an ordinance form with the the elevation and the bulkhead and seaw wall um stuff and and bring them back together or I can go straight to to uh adoption what whatever this board prefers I would think we go to LPA ASAP and then you could you address anything that you've heard tonight that you think you've got to do or address and then you come to us with those changes as well as what you gave LP a as well as anything they said you bring that to us I don't know whether it's a workshop or a meeting but it would then come back to us but because of that uh bill that Keith was referring to We Can't yep did yeah I'd be okay with that and I know I I saw there was a comment that EAC wants to revive review the ordinance again I don't um I'm not I don't know historically if they review ordinances before we see them but um I just don't want that to hold up the process so like if they have a meeting prior to LPA great but I don't want to like Miss LPA meeting to go to EAC absolutely they are adviser I fully respect them okay with them reviewing it just I just don't want to like delay LPA yeah and I think that's what we'll do it'll be more of an advisory thing we'll do it before LPA and mention any suggestions or ideas they have to the LPA perfect okay everyone good with that yes me council member painter you're good still there he still driving I no think he should all right and for the record yeah no sorry I'm here my mute button wasn't work I am all good okay for the record I would usually take public comment now but there is no public all right can I get a motion to adjourn so moved second all in favor I Floridians come out when it's bye pck thank you so I hid your SHO