e e e call I don't know yeah we're waiting to start until the AV department is ready for us they're ready now this meeting of the Planning and Zoning commission will come to order uh for February 21st 2024 first item is call to order now the Pledge of Allegiance please stand roll call please Lori chairman Richardson here Vice chairman Eton here secretary Grant here member Childs here member Gad here member fac here member moso here alternate member Findler alternate member Rogers here School Board member Gilbert here okay next item is approval of minutes of February 7th y all should have received those in the packet any comments any changes anyone care to make a motion secretary Grant uh yeah thank you U Mr chairman I make a motion to approve the minutes from uh February 7th 2024 is there a second second second Vice chairman Aton roll call please Lori member fac yes member Childs yes secretary Grant yes member Moscoso yes uh Vice chairman Aton yes member Gad yes chairman Richardson yes item number six Quai judicial confirmation procedures Chelsea would you go over that please all persons who anticipate speaking on any public hearing item must fill out an oath card to be heard on that agenda item and sign the oath contained thereon these cards are located on the table near the entrance to the council chamber or may be obtained from the recording secretary this meeting will be conducted in accordance to the procedures adopted in resolution number 24-1 1997 those speaking in favor of a request will be heard first those opposed will be heard second and those who wish wish to make a public comment on the item will speak third the applicant may make a brief rebuttal if necessary a representative from either side for or against May cross-examine a witness anyone who speaks is considered a witness if you have photographs sketches or documents that you desire for the commission to consider they must be submitted into evidence and will be retained by the city please submit such exhibits to the recording secretary thank you thank you Eddie would you go over the item yes sir thank you uh this item begins on page 12 um the applicant has sent an email this today um this email is from uh 4:23 p.m. and they've requested that the item be tabled to a date certain to the pnz meeting on April 17th um if it's the board's decision to uh table the item to April 17th then I will uh not read the go over the overview of the item okay there's a bunch of comments I'd make before we start and uh I realize that this is the third at least time you've been here this year and U because the applicant keeps asking for delay um I think it's only fair that we allow everyone to speak if you want to speak and I've got a list of people that have sent me emails and I assume they've sent the other members of the commission emails and this is in no particular order k a an Dwight sers Rick Smidt James Boyd Debbie Stewart Tanya Smith Maryanne Nash Brent boydd Laura Flanigan and I was uh undergoing physical therap today and even my therapist lives on Midland Avenue and he told me to signed a petition that's Nathan Stafford so that's all the uh information the people sent me and um you you may know you may not know that this um Ian table last week uh last piny meeting and I received a letter then and I think the entire commission received it from uh Dwight sers talking about an objection uh that' be heard before the commission and it's contains it's about seven or eight pages and it contains uh everything including the conflict of interest form or statement that um kimley horn should have replied to it has a list of kimley horn contracts with the city were two years that are over a million dollars in two years evenly split between the public warts department and the planning department Community Development Department at this time I ask if Mr sers wants to speak and then I'll open the public hearing for everybody to speak yeah we Ru on the CL Mr chairman members of the commission the applicant is present and um typically you would have the applicant speak first he Mr sers needs to speak first because he um filed a complaint then we'll go do the applicant and then the others after that whatever your your pleasure uh I certainly want to speak on the merits of the issue if and when you get to that uh I'm Dwight receivers uh like many people reside within 500 F feet of the property receive formal notice from this the city because of my review of the agenda review of public records and based upon my prior history and experience I became concerned that the applicant kimley horn had a conflict of interest because they represented the applicant as well as representing the the city of Titusville for hundreds of thousands of dollar involving Public Works contracts and planning Services prior to your February 7th meeting I was concerned enough to file a formal written objection to the proceeding and on the afternoon of the 7th before the meeting I was informed by the city attorney's office about 3:30 that at the request of attorney Hal at caner on behalf of oer development the real party in interest that the item would be tabled in order that the city council at their next meeting could consider and resolve the issue I had raised I'm sure you're aware that there was about 50 residents uh here uh I was advised likewise I would receive a statement uh from kimley horn on Friday February 9th kimly horn provided a letter indicate that they had no conflict of interest on Monday January 12th not hearing anything from the city or anybody about whether this was going to be on the council's agenda I contact sent an email to the city manager City attorney and the mayor asking if it was going to be on the agenda the next morning the morning of the council meeting I heard from the city attorney and he said to me that the attorney for kimley horn under the first reading of the item might bring this up but he was not sure I asked him if he had spoken to the attorney As I understood him he said no I asked him was the city council aware of the issue and he said yes therefore even though I had a conflict I attended the Tuesday night meeting in abundance of caution I signed up to be heard at the meeting several people spoke at the hearing and when my name came up I came before the council and said I would be present on February the 27th at the public hearing I asked them um that I was here and told them I was here on my objection before the Planning and Zoning commission and in addition I asked them whether the council was aware of it it was quite evident to me they had no clue what I was talking about Mr sers do you need another minute or two yes sir any objection continue please okay I offered them a copy and provided all them a copy of my concern since since then I have heard nothing from any representative the city including the city manager City attorney Mr Parish or anyone I'm not aware of the status of my formal objection that I filed for the record uh tonight uh I understand there certainly to be a quiz I judicial proceeding and there is a request to table the item as a matter of minimum I'd suggest that you allow those presentent or those people that can't come back on April the 17th opportunity to be heard thank it is not within the prerogative of the planning and Zona commission to decide whether there's a conflict that is the obligation of the city my impression is that my objection will be ignored thank you okay thank you now for the applicant my name is Bob ree I'm the president of the braier corporation the developer kimley horn is our consultant and we request that the item be tabled uh for reasons um that we're tweaking the plans we're not ready to present and there's this Cloud over uh the our heads with kimley horn being this conflict cloud and the reason we tabled it last time we're we apologize for everybody coming out honestly just the way the notices go we can't you know be ahead of the nuses we we are very sorry for that but until this is resolved it wasn't resolved at uh Council I was there and that these are the reasons why we tabling a request to table thank you any questions thank you Mr Rogers perhaps not being a sitting member tonight um I don't really have the right to ask this but I certainly was curious about uh the reasons listed in this letter for the tabling um I believe that certainly that was spoken to here but I just wonder what what was said in the letter if I may ask if if that's a fairly short letter and I may ask that i' I'd like to hear it if if not perhaps it's someone else wants to hear it you could ask you're asking who I I believe Mr gindo had to okay copy of the letter sure so this email is from Robin McAdams of uh louns Law Firm Legal Assistant to how cancer um and the email States I wish to amend my email to you of February 18th 2024 by changing the request to table to an unspecified date I would like to instead request a table to a date certain in that regard we would request that the hearing be rescheduled to April 17th 2024 during this period we will determine the path that seems more appropriate for the project and will notify you regarding our attentions before the April 17th date we understand that we will be responsible for paying advertising fees and rescheduling if you if you should have any questions please let me know that was the extent of the request any other questions okay at this point I should have said I'll open the public hearing Mr G Mr grod yes I had a question for the applicant if you could perhaps answer um in matters like this where it does seem like there's an appropriate terminology Cloud um have your um representatives and yourselves considered withdrawing the application and starting from a new wherein notifications would occur from the start rather than as was presented it gets caught up in somewhat of a a revolving door during continuous periods and time specific periods and lacking of further notification but for the cost to doing business that is sometimes a preferred Outlet kind of puts everybody in neutral Corners that that's why we changed the time certain and that's the date and because of the timing we do apologize for tonight but it was two weeks and it was advertised we were hoping for some kind of resolution at Council and it didn't materialize if I may continue I I understand but in the case of the there was I believe presentation that there was a community meeting with this with some folks in the area prior to the hearing which is typical for projects or I'm my misunderstanding was there do you know Eddie if there was a meeting with the part there was there was and those meetings come about because of the schedule that takes place with an application when you get into a continuance where as you put it you're going to have this tweaked plan you don't have the same opportunity to have a meeting with the affected parties around you and the staff is that sometimes a short sheet trying to catch up to the timing schedule where you've got a date specified and the plans for that get provided for late in the game lacking adequate time to possibly give a full evaluation I've been there sorry I know this and so I ask again if you consider withdrawing your application while you consider what this tweak plan would be well we would prefer to just have it a Time certain and um you know if we do another public hearing I mean another uh uh public community meeting we've actually done about four of them we're not opposed to doing another meeting another community meeting that's not the issue and certainly April is so far out in the future for us we're just hoping to get this Cloud resolved and we're haven't stopped making the adjustments to the site plan Now understand it's a fully engineered site plan so it's not like we're going to be starting from scratch I fully understand I'm just suggesting that in matters like this oftentimes it's how's the saying go better withdraw today and come back tomorrow than to press on I just seeing what is occurring here and from the way the sequence of events even April is a time it seems a long time but it may not be however as you mentioned you've had Community meetings perhaps you should consider scheduling another one since there is a room full of people here that probably are a little apprehensive of what tweaked plan means so I might suggest that during the continuous period if that's what goes in the approval you have another community meeting and reach out to the folks that are in this room and others that maybe couldn't make it yeah our track record speaks to that so that's not an issue remember musos so you had to light lit okay first card Lori gal kusma are we just speaking you get the opportunity to speak I mean if you want to speak that's you have three minutes if you need EX your time let me know um well I'm I'm speaking on behalf of um keeping this Hospital medical zoned still um I've lived in Titusville for over the last 35 years and last March in 2023 I started Cancer Treatments at Parish Medical Center and abruptly they shut their doors with no warning morning and it caused me and other cancer patients to have to scatter to try to find care in Orlando or other places in the county and um I had to go down to Meritt Island uh for five weeks and drive myself back and forth and um I think it's essential to leave this parcel Hospital medical because we need other facilities or or other opportunities to come in and provide the community with the care they need such as Cancer Care and so I feel like they need to leave this Hospital medical and not rezone this parcel thank you next card please if if I may just ask a point of order to the chairman if the commission is intending to vote on this item tonight wouldn't they like to hear staff's presentation I'm just giving the public who's come out three times the opportunity to speak just checking we'll decide that okay well I do have some photos I don't know if I should just give them out now and if you're going to hang on to them or iint out more for next time would you like pH sure we'll pass it down Among Us start it give it to the secretary okay well my name is Bill kosma that's kuzma um I'm speaking against this proposal because of flooding reasons the photos that you see are from the flooding on Maryland Avenue and the registry plans you know to build impervious surfaces over 40% of the property now when you say tweet I can't tell so that's why we do need to have another meeting because we've seen so many different forms of this and uh and ail 2022 Mr Reese told PMZ there won't be one drop of water which in is a condition of the state that leaves our property and goes into another property yet the recent Master utility plan shows underground pipes leading from the SES proposed dry Retention Ponds to Maryland Avenue Pond now I'm not sure if it's still going to be the same after the next tweak it ditch drain storm water through the proposed site under Maryland Avenue onto this one acre Pond that we have then a covert leads from the pond under US1 and onto the Lagoon for the US EPA driver tension ponds remove only 55% nitrogen 68% phosphorus sending pollutants into the Lagoon furthermore the uscpa indicates I say quote driver tangent ponds do little to control storm water volume which could result in adverse Downstream impacts and we've seen at on our streets as you can see with the pictures the 100-year 24-hour storm events are coming Fast and Furious and in September 22 hurricane Ian dropped 26.42% reducing the potential for flooding on Maryland Avenue so protect our single family neighborhood from flooding caused by this proposed high density complex I recommend denying the resoning well this is just a little personal things I have 355 gallon plastic barrels of sand 80 to 100 pre-filled sandbags that are sitting next to my garage I need these because of the storms I have the lowest house on the street and I have to stack sandbags more than four high up against my garage door because of this water I had to tape myself into the house because of the water coming over can I continue how much more time do you need just a couple minutes two one everybody agree 30 seconds what bidding against yourself well I I understand that but okay anyhow Wetlands at one of the meetings the Builder said that the wetlands were no longer there anymore I don't know how they disappeared but behind my house is a ditch that's constantly flowing water from that property 24 hours a day 365 days a year except for this year 366 if it wasn't coming from the wetlands where is this water coming from you know that really concerns me because it's always flowing and no other runoff runs into that except what accumulates on that property well I'll just take my time and say that's it so thank you thank you I'll have more next card Lori Bill [Applause] Hoffman hi folks my name is Bill Hoffman um I currently reside at 1295 Old Dixie Highway also own another home at 1300 there um my South property line 263 foot directly AB buts the two Parcels that front Old Dixie Highway um I'm here to oppose any rezoning for those lots I'm here to oppose any rezoning for the medic Hospital medical to high density housing of the 29 Acres that front us one as well excuse me um I never thought that these two single family resident Lots next to me would have either town homes or even a road through to Old Dixie but look looks like it's trying to it's trying to happen right now um and we all know Old Dixie it's a dangerous road uh traffic is fast up and down there if we add God knows it how many cars to it if we do a com high density housing community I'm my estimate is 500 additional cars I think that's conservative that would create a real Hazard there on on Old Dixie um and that access road would be about 60 ft south of my current driveway so it's hard enough getting in and out of there now much less with additional 500 plus cars coming and going um and that is the local community there that's really our biggest issue I think is an access road to Old Dixie would impact us greatly there um I've had my chain link fence run down two times now uh had to rebuild it um from folks just negligent drivers driving too fast not paying attention and not to mention the garbage that we end up with up and down that road if we added 5 600 more cars it would just be all the worse um let's see and again I just want to say I I oppose this resoning of the 29 Acres that front us won uh as well as the two Parcels next to me I I would welcome single family homes next to me that wouldn't bother me at all but a a driveth through there with 5 600 additional cars a day maybe more that might be a conservative estimate too in the traffic that comes and goes we know Old Dixie doesn't have very big rideways and a lot of fences right on the the uh right up next to the RightWay and it it's hard to come in and out of there at least from my house I don't know some of the other folks may have a hard time too but anyway I just uh want to thank you for the opportunity to speak tonight and again I oppose any rezoning of the hospital medical 29 Acres there at the front US1 so thank you for your time [Applause] uh member Rogers I had a question of the gentleman who was just up uh if if you could approach the podium sir yes sir please um what was your name again sir Bill Hoffman Mr Hoffman did you say you have two properties that back up to this uh uh proposed development uh just one of my properties actually abuts this property the other one is across the street front Okay well perhaps I might address this to Mr kman as well but I remember uh reading through the material there was the suggestion that drainage problems that existed on Old Dixie were the result of residents having built uh structures or I don't know placed something in the Swale I believe was the term they used um there that was impeding water flow can can you speak to that or perhaps could Mr kusma speak to that or somebody who actually backs up against the proposed development speak to that's in my back corner that is critical and and just south of me there is a drainage easement um with underground ground uh drain pipes in there as well but that's about all I can tell you on that okay I just thought perhaps but I saw perhaps somebody else saw it that was the suggestion that perhaps a flooding problem there had been created by the construction of I don't know outbuildings or something like that I I just wondered whether that was whether someone had a thought on that next card Lori Loren Flanigan Lauren Flanigan retired registered nurse Tennessee Street at council's first reading of the registry on February 13th vice mayor Robinson indicated this property has a special value to it because of its proximity to the hospital he said we want this designation so that as we grow if we need larger medical facilities we don't have to put them in Mims the mayor agreed stating this is our Hospital medical zoning use right there and it would be silly to not keep it that way section 28-31 indicates the hospital Medical District is created to provide a protective area for the harmonious development of Health Care Facilities in accessory Services the district is intended to be protected from encroachment by land uses that are incompatible to the location operation and expansion of medical facilities development the registry's proposal to build 314 apartments and Tow houses on the property would encroach on this Hospital Medical District preventing the expansion of medical facility developments on over 29 acres of land there are no substantial reasons why the property cannot be used in the existing zoning District as the mayor and vice mayor indicated this is Prime Property for the building of additional medical facilities as it is so close to our existing Hospital during covid Parish Medical Cent rooms were full and covid patients were treated in the parking lot another catastrophe could easily overwhelm the hospital medfast Urgent Care has three offices in Titusville alone because the Emer Mercy room is so busy with very very sick patients we also need more specialist doctor's offices so our residents don't have to drive 40 miles just to see a specialist city planners have indicated this is the last large vacant land zoned Hospital medical is the health and well-being of Titus fill children adults and elderly worth giving up the last 29 Acres a buildable medical land we need more medical facilities to serve our current and new residents in addition to the many thousands of tourists and visitors to the Space Coast in Port canaval who stay in our hotels and campsites Apartments should be built on land already zoned are three we ask that you please recommend denial of the resoning in retaining the current medical zoning for the future when you write your report perfect timing thank you you must have rehearsed [Applause] that next card please CLA o orer resident of um Alabama Street I've only been here for three years and um retired here and I ride my bicycle down Old Dixie Highway to get to the um path to ride my bike there's no other way to get there there's no um what uh what you call it um there's no place to ride my bike except for in the street there's no side side of the street uh the line is right at the grass so I can't imagine TR there's no other way to get there except for G down Old Dixie either way um to get to the bike path I can't imagine if there's going to be access onto that Road Old Dixie with all these cars with PE people taking their children to school or going to the grocery store or going to the doctors or whatever that's not going to to be safe for people walking on that street riding their bike on that street um so I am opposed I know the last meeting that the gentleman had he said that the apartments were going to be built and I resided myself to that because he said that the access would be to Route One but now everything's changed now we're going to be a busy street on Old Dixie and it's not it Old Dixie leads to other small streets like uh Shady Oaks is a very small Street um so I don't understand why we have to have all this traffic so I guess I'm opposed to them which I know it probably can't be helped if the apartments are going to be built they would rather have the access onto Dixie than go across the bike path have to stop there and go across the bike path so their inconveniences all the people over here for that so do you understand what I'm saying all right that's all I have to say then thank you thank you next card Vanna Monger good evening my name is Vanna Munger I live on Maryland Avenue I'm here to strongly oppose the resoning of the 29.54 Acres and it needs to remain zoned Hospital medical a complex such as a registry would create more noise crime bigger drainage problems lower property values and increased traffic by a minimum of 400 cars utilizing our nearby roads daily this would create more accidents on US1 and Old Dixie Highway it would make emergency vehicle response times much slower to get patients and to get them to a hospital as we all know in an emergency every second counts Old Dixie Highway is historical it needs no more excessive traffic this should not be an option to and from this complex no sidewalks no gutters speed humps Walkers bicyclists children playing Etc this would be a traffic accident nightmare waiting to happen this complex would wipe out our wildlife on this property where this residency is going I back up to that property where I live at we have had deer bear otter Eagles Hawks coyotes turkeys go for Turtles snakes in the Val which is a small prey animal that feed a whole ecosystem of hawks Eagles owls and Etc on this property The Vault thrives in grassy fields and woods currently we have excessive waiting periods do get into many physician and medical offices as of today the closest and only endocrinologist in Port St John is now not taking any new patients and is currently booking existing patients into September OBGYN booking into June 2024 out four months PCP new patients are two weeks out and there are very few taking new patients in Titus GI doctors are two weeks out if you have a special procedure you're going to be waiting two or three months out so everyone's going to Orlando and to our out cities for medical care so please keep this Zone medical and take care of Titusville tax playing residents we need more upto-date Doctors Medical Offices to support this community so I'm asking to please keep this zened medical thank you thank you for your time next card please K St o wait a minute sorry um this question is for Eddie could you tell me what classification um of roadway is Old Dixie is it local collector material chairman I'm not sure if you want me to she asked your question i' answer it I I I'll look it up thank you okay next card K St a k St a Marland Avenue I don't know if you realize last month a city solid waste truck was parked on Old Dixie at the corner of Georgia Avenue in Old Dixie a motorcyclist ran into the back of it and was killed this will happen again I'm terrified to ride my bike on Old Dixie or to walk up Old Dixie there are no sidewalks no shoulders you have to walk in the traffic lane there's lots of Shadows you can't be seen and you just have to dodge you have to be sure you walk into the traffic so that you can see if they see you or not and you dodge but on it's it's going to be there will be more deaths I'm fearful if this moves forward my main concern tonight I just wanted to let be sure you knew that um but my main concern tonight is the environmental impact of the proposed resoning um at the first reading both the mayor and the vice mayor said that this is a special property and they were referring to the proximity to the hospital but there's another reason why it's special yes indeed and that is because of these birds these are rare birds the painted bunding that live there and yesterday I was able to go to my neighbor's house and look up from her property and see the bald eagle chick sitting in the nest right next to within the 660 ft buffer that is required by the US FWS staff indicates the project infringes on the 660t buffer required by us fish and wildlife service if a buffer of 660 ft cannot be maintained between Construction activities in the nest for the agency the developer must contact the agency as any activity that can causes the nest in chick to be abandoned is subject to a large fine and yet staff in their reports to you and the council has not said we've told the the developer to contact this agency but why not why wouldn't they tell them to contact the permitting agency they have indicated it's within the six 160t buffer once these Woods are gone these painted buntings will be gone this eagle nest that has fledged Birds one year after another year after another will be gone these Woods are special they're full of huge Heritage trees oak trees with their arms extended with Resurrection bur on them there's dozens of these huge trees and they will all be mowed down by their bulldozers leaving only 16% of the land in tree canopy can I have another minute or so there's a consensus you can have a minute okay thank you yet up so they only plan to preserve 16% of the land in tree canopy yet up the road Dairy Road Apartments committed to preserve 28% in tree canopy and actually said they would move the side of a three-story building building to preserve one single Heritage tree the applicant doesn't promise to preserve any Heritage trees the applicant in April 2022 said to you to pnz we are staying out of the wetlands in the 1.6 acres to make a permanent conserv of the Wetland we will go ahead and commit to that up front God created a large Wetland there and I can't change what God created that's what Mr re said yet now he says there's no wetland well I don't know how that came about the applicant doesn't uphold promises made to pnz in 2016 the register's owner Carell Palms entered into a development agreement with the city to preserve 9.29 Acres he put it in writing but he won't uphold that [Music] either this applicant makes one promise after another that he's not willing to uphold thank you next card Lori Stan Johnston good evening uh some of you are surprised that I'm here because you expected me to be in jail I think but uh I'm not in jail this time uh I'm out of jail now so any I'm a registered professional engineer I'm not very popular here but uh I'm i i s a letter to kimley Horn and they didn't address it and I asked them about commenting about the uh possible conflict of interest no response and they're not here e right now so I don't think that that's very appropriate that they uh maybe they responded to somebody but not to me and I told them I'm registered professional engineer and you know you do a conflict of interest you'll be reported to the board so uh I see right now is that there's some things that are day dated sign dated uh February the 16th in this package February 16th signed and there's also one that's not even signed on page 343 says supposed to be signed it's not signed page 343 if you want to take a note of that um the uh uh it's it's interesting is that uh the traffic analysis is uh uh 330 pages from page 87 7 page 317 and uh I see no review of uh the what I asked for at this last last time I spoke at council meeting I said I would like to see that that you have that the city has reviewed the project according to the storm waterer management plan of Greater Titusville no response I think you all know some of you know is that I purchased which is about that sick the uh storm water management plan and gave it to plane because they haven't been using it City hasn't been using it for many years even the person who was in charge of the comprehensive plan storm management plan never even heard of it that's Sean stoffer when I talked to him in 2012 never even heard of it so uh we have a uh we have a we have problems in our city government no no we have big problems in our city government now it's outrageously horrible problems in s government because they're not following this storm management plan and you should you should take attention to it I'm asking for this project to be reviewed on that on that thick book and I get no response and the engineer's not here and the engineer is not here to talk about his traffic analysis which is 330 pages of this document 330 Pages no true traffic engineer here so we can't answer it so the uh I'm surprised that we got February 17th with pnz meeting February 13th first reading Council uh in the papers are signed in this document February the 16th what is it is this a moving Target I'd like at least one more minute please okay one more minute thank you Chris so so like I said it's a moving Target I don't think you heard what I said pnz February 7th first reading Council February 13 signing of papers February the 16th that document's changing it changes from so it's a moving Target that's not fair uh so I know what all what all changes that you made but um the report to council um on this is not there's no date on it and also the attachments that are dated in the in the council report are dat dated February 1st and February the 2 yet the documents there's documents signed dated February the 16th I'd like to know this is a moving Target and I think you should address that please address these issues and I'm here to uh hear any comments about the storm water master plan please respond okay thank you next card please before that uh real quick before that if I could answer member moso's question from a little while ago um Old Dixie Highway is listed as a collector roadway William Ward good evening my name is William Ward 1205 Old Dixie Highway are our yard butts up to the back of their property to be that they designed to be built um I didn't write a speech today but I want to let you know about my I'm I am very much against the resoning because of the medical needs because of the traffic and because of the flooding they say there's not going to be any flooding there's no runoff there's always runoff especially when you cover 40 40 to 45% of it with asphalt and and concrete it's a prime prime source for the aquafer for that water drainage back there and in the wildlife I sit on my back porch at night and I listen to the owls there there's so many so many species of not just birds and Raptors but anything um I agree with what everybody said about the flooding um I tell you how much need there is for a high density development there're two blocks down there's there's probably 500 unit apartments that are totally empty that's how much of a need there is for this development we do need medical very much so and uh my my property is probably the lowest my backyard is the lowest I will have pictures next time I don't have them with me but I'll be back and I'll I'll bring the pictures even even a strong rainstorm over the weekend will cause about a foot of foot of water in my backyard it it drains away because that area is a good drain source for the aquafer and that's what we need so thank thank you very much for your time thank you next card that was the last card okay I'll close the public hearing it returns to the commission do you want to table it until October is that October 17th April April 17th October everybody but be happy with that April 17th or do you want to go on with it and have Eddie give his report the applicant has asked that it be tabled but in all fairness you people came up here three times and I thought it was only fair that you got an opportunity to speak thank you Mr fa um in the spirit of what the applicant has asked because he's trying to address the concerns of Mr receivers I believe that we should go and table this topic until April 17th that's a motion the form of a motion yes I we table it is there a second second second by secretary Grant roll call please member Gad yes Vice chairman Aton yes member Childs yes member Moscoso yes secretary Grant yes member faon yes chairman Richardson yes okay so this has been officially tabled you got to speak tonight uh you will come back approximately April the 17th thank you for coming well we're going to have a meeting if you would take your conversation in the hallway we' appreciate it please take your conversations into the hallway they don't listen too well do they here she get them where's the law enforcement officer yeah yeah he hurts me I've been disabled I'm 100% four back surgeries surger enti isus repl yeah understand Contin okay understand next item is a new business it there doesn't appear to be any new business next item petitions and requests from the public presid and the Press I don't see any press here go ahead good evening this thing is working all right uh so I sent you an email today uh I don't think anybody's read it yet but it's uh it's about um SNJ Oaks townhouse project which my wife and I used to own two acres of that property and we were very shocked when uh the city uh had installed a um 20ft wide concrete apron on our property but with our permission for Mocking Bird lane and then uh pnz sometime and Council said well gee you know it's no right to be there and I've I've approved it my wife and I approved it back in 1984 1980 1984 1986 it seems inconsistent that our attorneys and everything would just reverse things and of course I I went ahead and I've opposed it as a professional engineer hired by one of the property owners by some Property Owners there I had a complaint from uh uh uh Mr uh Fire Marshall Anderson saying is that well my goodness uh Mr Johnson you're wrong and he read to me Florida statute 704 and it says and everything in Florida statute 704 says that I'm correct so anyhow with those considerations that which doesn't make any sense to me uh I wrote you this uh uh email and it says uh in short the sum I I have an affidavit recorded uh and it says part of this affidavit says as follows it says I've asked for City to respond to the following problems many times including recently in my email uh to City date February 5th and council meeting February 13th it reads as follows how can City continue to approve this the survey construction PR PL of the project S&J Oaks considering one encroachment survey overlaps Witness by me and vice mayor Joe Robinson field book 2 213 um page 128 that's 2013 number two independent finds by city employees Brad parish and Mark Jones that the RightWay of Elizabeth Avenue is not 53t wide as shown by snow survey rather it is 50 ft wide uh as determined by a deed from Stan Johnson to City I sold the city property in 1984 uh number three failure to Deed from me Stan John to City failure to uh Deed from me no failure to properly recognized mocker Lane by name overhead electric street signs Etc right there you can see you go drive out there you see there's overhead electric it's not even shown on the survey not shown on the site plan not shown on the on the preliminary PL I can't believe it can I have another minute please this time Chris well we've got it yes okay all right six to one vote okay quick here we go all right thank you Megan um uh we number three uh Fair properly okay okay number four the design fails to recognize the prescriptive rights uh I'm going to do it short number five is um uh I can't even find number five well uh okay number there's number four fa avoid number five the title policy voided by survey errors encroachments and other no responses so here's what that I'm looking forward to seeing you city manager City attorney Council fire Mar Department Mr Fisher and others in court as you explain justify Ci's outrageous numerous violations of laws including but limited to survey laws prescriptive laws common law fs74 and only only approving for over two years a survey construction plans and pring PL all of which are known by City to be erroneous uh City's outrageous unanimous misconduct also violates rotary's four-way test numerous codes and council's oath of offes any questions thank you you guys approved this thing too did we not ask at one time for staff report on the SJ Oaks okay I thought yeah I thought that they did report from the back that we did get something I think yeah I think Brad said something chairman Richardson I think you requested it individually and then you read it it into the record at one of our meetings I think that's what happened no I it wasn't the one that brought it up it was another member of the commission that brought it up I I recall was because I was new and I had so I recall that any other petitions and request I thought so Dwight sers Titusville uh at the January 17th meeting I appeared before you presented a packet concerning flooding and I haven't heard anything from anybody as I recall the commission did ask staff to look into it and give a report back uh I'm not I haven't been contacted by staff or anyone concerning this issue certainly am available if uh if that's appropriate for them secondly I'll just tell you now I should have thought of it earlier uh I'm scheduled to be out of town on April the 17th a long planned trip whether I have to change that or not I don't know uh but the last thing I I just want to mentioned because I think it needs to be clarified on this uh agenda item the registry I have copies of two letters from the school board in 2022 they said there would be a 139 students generated to this from this site in 2023 a year later they say there's 67 I don't understand that that's significant half as many people uh I just suggest staff or the school board representative look in into that because on this face to me it looks like an error on one of the reports that's all thank you reports uh chairman yes I was going to say we did get an email I think from Brad I haven't read it all because it's very extensive but I think I I think we can forward it to you with what what we got from Brad but uh I think it addressed multiple things but I I haven't read through it all yet but it doesn't really answer the question fully he okay well talks about the tree and a couple things like that but it doesn't answer the question of flooding yeah oh Mr Rogers I keep missing you over there I just had a question of it's not necessary to approach a Podium is it Mr sver sers sers I was saying it's not necessary to approach the podium I just you it's Brookshire that you're speaking of right yes um and and you back up to that your property does your your uh you live in the area right it sort of or you did I previously live basically across the street from it okay so you I've been here more than 50 years I'm very familiar with the property I I'm not questioning that sir um I just uh I just wondered if you were living there when the uh when the the site work was being done as staff well knows I vigorously opposed A lot of I had asked to see the uh preliminary engineering Plan before they were finalized Unfortunately they neglected to provide those to me even though I'd made a public records request yes because I had comments because of the design layout historically I prepared in Consulting with the engineer the city's engineer the area of critical concern ordinance and very familiar with the hydrology as it relates to the aquifer and the recharge and frankly it got destroyed on that property yes which I think was very wrong yes in the drainage historically there was drainage natural drainage yes de sites no 17 18 foot in elevation they got filled by 10 ft of fill right and shift all the drainage from the site over to the corner where this flooding now is occurring right and I've lived here more than 50 years I have never seen flooding like that historically and Mr shers you uh pardon I'm a little bit new in town but you're do I recall that you were were the City attorney for some time 40 years all right um okay so this is not something that you're it's not a process you're unfamiliar with how how this is supposed to be handled I've reviewed a lot of planning information I've reviewed a lot of engineering information I've been up and down every street in this city every drainage disc there is have a fair knowledge of the city the layout and the lay of the land so to speak and and if there has been some sort of a breakdown in process at the very least in this particular uh uh development you know just with your experience and you know in your position now as as a citizen who's not an active member of this government could you Hazard a guess as as what what's kind of what went wrong what broke down in that process I'm I'm trying to be a appropriate I I we have good people don't get me wrong but I think there is such a great difference to certain engineers and what they design and say we don't second guess when we should in the interest of the city in the interest of upholding certain rules regulations and ordinances for the overall public benefit should have priority and it doesn't seem to work that way and I I know they probably can easily say well this was designed to contain the 100-year storm guess what we regularly have storms as one of the gentlemen said this evening that exceed that and I'm well aware of during that one hurricane we had 26 in of rain and I can Envision what that intersection is we like with the benefit of the general public when we have a large rain event 15 20 in it will be flooded and the citizens are the one that's going to suffer because historically that water backed up in that low Wetland area and now now there is a a dyke there is the burm for the retention Bond and it can't back up in there that's just simple common sense I don't have to be a real professional engineer to figure that out thank you sir that was very diplomatic sir any other questions okay uh report City staff no report sir City attorney nothing thank you uh do you want to go over uh quide judicial make sure that everybody understands you don't State your position sure um a couple of things that I could talk about with the quad judicial process is that you want to allow everything to be stated on in the public hearing before you declare public publicly what your opinion is it's very important to wait and reserve your thoughts and comments until after such time as the entire application has been presented until such time as all of the comments have been provided and then for the applicant to present their case and so that they know all of the issues on the table that they can respond to especially if you're going to be making a comment to the the community or the rest of the commission at the dis about how you will be voting if you have made a decision on how you will be voting before the presentation is made to you that will definitely be looked at as bias and it will be a very difficult situation for the city to defend your decision and so ultimately my recommendation to you is to provide an unbiased decision so that the city does not end up in litigation because of the comments that are made prior to the closure of the public Hearing in other words keep your mouth shut and until we vote it comes to vote after the public hearing that is it is best to reserve your comments and your judgments on a decision until after um all of the comments have been made and when you are in a position to make a vote before everything has has been provided to you you need to be a judge with a neutral playing field and not have a predetermined decision because if you make a decision before an application is presented to you you're not a neutral decision maker and that's what we need up here exactly if you'd like to discuss this further my office is always open to um have one-on-one meetings to understand better what the quas a judicial process requires yeah it may be extremely difficult um to not State how you going to vote but you should not ever State how are you going to vote before the hearing is complete and it was It was kind of my fault for not stopping member Rogers and I'll accept that um but uh I think we all have learned something from this Miss moso yeah I would kind of like to Circle back to um the conflict of interest in kimley Horn I mean we received a lot of emails about it we've had a lot of people from the public speak about it um I have my own opinions on it um but I would love to hear what other um members of the board their thoughts on it if they'd like to speak to it I see real interest would you like to take U member Rogers I'm going to tell you how I'm going to vote no I'm kidding I think that however rigorously um a group like kimley horn might try to separate uh this hat from that hat um someone who is helping you to lay out an extensive multi- deade plan for your city but who also is constantly representing people who develop in your city uh I feel like it's a little hard to it would be a little hard to prevent uh one role from bleeding over into another and or it might be easy to justify well you know this is good for say my development clients for example but eventually it will be good for the city too when in fact possibly people might have a little different idea about that if they were asked in the city so I do think that um it is not only a situation that bears watching but I think it might be a situation that bears some changing um and see if we can maintain a little more separation and Independence between people who are advising us on future plans and people who are in effect you know uh well are being paid by developers to advance their interests member Gad I would just it's difficult to not know anything about where the origins of the concerns for the citizens came from so I have no comment about the perception of a conflict of interest I do have something to say as a certified planner as civil engineers are certified as professional Regulators are certified attorneys planners Engineers doctors all of those professions have a code of ethics and those ethics codes if violated can remove your license is that right Stan yes yes sir and as a professional planner if you feel like you're compelled to think that there's a conflict of interest or that someone is being unethical you need to file your complaint with that ethics commission and allow the ethics commission make the decision because in a small area like this you you're invariably going to have a handful of engineering firms a handful of legal Consultants a handful of urban planners that will repeatedly be the representatives for many clients all the while because of the limitation those limited professionals have and the demand on their services they become the consultants for little cities Big Towns cities in general and it's it happens it happens repetitively it's not something that doesn't and there really are and I think one of the things to not is it was reported early on that you had the company that started as the civil engineer in planning for the property got absorbed by the other company so it came to it and I only plead for that to say that I'm obliged to follow my professional ethics and if I feel like there's a conflict of interest I'm either violating my code of ethics or I am not so that's just all I can say I'm sorry very good member Charles yeah I was going to say that um since there is a proced since the city does have a procedure on it and that procedure wasn't followed either because of timing because they were you know they were bought out um maybe before I don't know what the timing was on it but definitely following the procedure needs to be important to the city because like you said when you're in a small community and there's only so many engineering firms that can do you know the type of Consulting that needs to be done on these projects um you're going to run into that and so that's why it's even more important to follow even the smallest little procedure about making sure that everyone it's every it's known to everyone and that um the staff can Overlook also the consultant and that's why they have to ask for permission to do it and um I I mean I I was a consultant for hospitals for you know 20 15 years or so and um I I never did that kind of cross you know stuff but that would kind of be I don't think that would ever be acceptable actually in the hospital I don't think they would ever let us be working for the accrediting you know uh board and also for the hospital they would never allow that ever and um but that's a little bit more that's you know that's people's lives on the line but um I I I think if they're going to do it I think it should be a different consultant I don't know if the same consultant worked on both projects but it definitely should be a different person I think that's probably something else that our procedures don't outline either is if you're going to if a same consultant company is going to do it you at least have you make sure that there's that separation of that the same person is not even going to be on the same team or in in communication with that other consultant during that project for about that project so I think that's something else we might um the city might consider adopting well it was the applicant's decision to hire kimley horn the staff didn't have anything to do with it so the staff is not guilty of anything in regard to the conflict of interest I think um CL kimly horn needs to self- police themselves like you said and make sure that it don't put people in an unusual position that may be considered conflict of interest that's much go so yeah I I would agree um but I I just wonder if it would be possible to have um like a third party review these type of projects when they're just for the sake of transparency when there appears to be a conflict of interest to have some procedure that would um kind of put it out in the open and have a third party review these things and and Chelsea I don't know if we have a process like that right now or if that's something we could recommend to council um just for the sake of transparency are you talking about reviewing city council decisions no no no I'm talking about um if there is let's say a kemy horn representing another development and they're also working on our comprehensive plan having a third party come in and reviewing those um those plans those contracts um do we have anything set up like that I don't think I'm understanding your proposal who where where this third layer would come in would it be on the applicant side or for the city contracts I I think for the city Side for the sake of transparency yeah to ensure the Integrity of the process so to get two Consultants on a project well it doesn't have to be necessarily that but I think there needs to be another set of checks and balances yes Dan there is there is yeah I would love to hear it thank you a little bit of correction on on what what has just transpired here is that uh we're not talking about ethics we're talking about law here when we're talking about conf conflicts although it is also an ethical consideration but it is a legal consideration uh if I'm in a conflict of interest I can be reported to the board so in this particular case is what I did is I sent a letter to Kimberly horm and I said there's an apparent conflict of interest please respond and in this case so you have a third party already in other words the city of Titusville can make a complaint to the board based upon an apparent conflict of interest and let and you can have the board that's is the Florida Board of Professional Engineers do your work for you instead of hiring somebody else I don't like to report somebody to the board I really don't like to and but in this case is that they haven't responded uh to my my questions at all and uh so so you you already have a vehicle not going to the to the ethics board but going to the Florida Board of Professional Engineers because that's a violation and and and everyone's heard of this Matthew 6:24 that is no man can serve two masters it's very clear to me as far as conflict of interest in this case I don't know thank you okay does that conclude your report yes well how's the baby she's good thank you okay chairperson I've got a couple things um as you're aware I asked to have the no I didn't say from the commission Eddie I asked on the 9th I believe was to get a copy of the um development reviews committee landscape and plan for tranquility it's been 12 days and I still don't have it very much apologized for that um I forwarded the request over to our development review um sorry development services department who manages the site plans I'll follow up and and we'll get that to you tomorrow I appreciate it um that's any members have a report Mr gr I do and I want want to take a few moments just to kind of throw out some stuff for consideration I think you all receiv some an email from Mr Parish that linked you to thousand friends of Florida a couple of weeks ago they gave you there's another one coming up at the end of the legislative session um there's a lot of stuff that is being proposed and I forwarded my own comments to to staff uh what I see in just large letters gleaming at me of oh I'm sorry in in in capitalized letters I see one particular bill which is I I'm think I'm correct to say it's being given a Senate Bill 812 and it's um it's being written to allow Expedition expedited process of building permits but it's companion to expedited building permits on land subject to subdividing and tonight there was a number of comments made ironically enough about uh wherein you have development occur and it is until after the development occurs you realize there's a problem that's becomes immeasurable to to to deal with or impossible to deal with so what what the bill proposes to do is I it's ironic and I want to share with you an experience and I shared that with staff um along the lines of subdividing land and I appreciated I received the the the flowchart for subdivisions and also I read through the code and different communities will identify by different terminologies in my case the terminologies were different so the definitions of what you see u under the de designation plat sketch preliminary subdivision plan engineering plans and then final subdivision plans and at the end of The Run you've got a recorded plat um what the what the bill does if you haven't read it and I'll just kind of read through it quickly um tius is going to qualify because it has the uh I believe the percentage of acreage under the blanket which is designated for unincorporated counties on population and for municipalities it's based on acreage but the acreage is much less than what the city of Titus is in size um um what it what it's going to do is it provides that that the uh upon the establishment uh of of vested rights the governing body um can't really make changes to a preliminary subdivision plan and it allows the developer once he presents the preliminary subdivision plan which in titus's path allows engineering plans to be companioned with that so you have an approved set of engineering plans and you have a sketch of the property so to speak and you start constructing well when you construct the plat you do the infrastructure and Mr Johnson spoken many times I recognize his profession so there's monumentation that takes place and you confirm all this has occurred as planned and then once you reach the maturation of that plan confirmation that it's built the way you're proposing it be built you then go through the step to create the recordable document by having a final subdivision plan and then after you record the document and straightforward enough way you obtain building permits and if you own a lot you've got iron pins there and you know where your house is going to be and all things are right under this proposal um what's going to happen is you're going to have the engineering plans approved and then you're going to start construction and you're going to concurrently build homes as you go through the construction and the reason that's happening you can read the bill the languages in black and white it's to allow pre-sales of Home loins so if you're a business person you know what cash flow means so you're able to pre-sell homes you're able to promise homes to be constructed and occupiable a date specific and then hopefully if nothing goes Ary you're going to have the home sold the day you record the plat and I've had the experience in which the expedited process was afforded a developer I gave the name uh to staff today if they wanted to research it but what happened and this was this was in the late 80s and it was at the time it was a development of regional impact it was a big big thing um the uh zitec and and and dway who are the planners of the 80s they did Seaside they were the gurus of planning and they did this huge project, 1500 homes um and they got expedited process one of the components of this is you have to assure the city that you're going to have the money available if the developer goes south so to speak well in this case they had at the time in the late 80s they had the trip party agreement that was a better thing than a bond and they had this trip party agreement with the savings of loan out of Miami that had something to do with planes flying to bogot and coming back and the next thing you know it all went very south the savings alone failed the tri party agreement failed and there sat this 1500 project subdivision roads were just basically carved in and houses were built well then the houses that were built couldn't be occupied the plaque couldn't get recorded and the community did not have the wherefor all to cash in anything and make it work uh make it work means you finish the stuff on your bond call and then you have the possession of the property and you Market it and auction it and it all works itself out in this case 20 years of time went by until finally after a recession came and went that somebody came in and bought the project and finished the subdivision all the while these several Built Homes lied there until they were an eyesore for the community they were unsightly to say the least they were for law enforcement a problem vacant houses on vacant property so my point is and I would ask if Chelsea you could let me know or maybe if this gets discussed with staff one of the key Parts I saw on the bill is that it speaks about that you can post your bond and then with that Bond posting performance bond I think is what the terminology is and then performance bonds are capped 120% means you got enough extra change to finish the job and pay your consultants and that's all good and fine what's not in that bill is any um I don't think any absolute cap that if local government established in their subdivision rules that if you wanted the expedited process perhaps a 200% performance bond gets posted for the what if now there again it's the measure of it on the other side of the coin if you're developer with the wear for-all that means you have to pull 200 times all the cost of the improvements you got to have some pockets and they have to be deep and if you have that you might prevent what could occur in my opinion what I'm looking at is not a huge development of regional impact failure through a savings and loan Association in the late 80s but a smaller scale development two or 300 homes in a subdivision a small scale development like that has got the potential is I think you could probably say there's some examples here in the community I think I've seen some examples um where you don't have a completed subdivision and it just until the weeds grow up through the Limestone and by doing that you won't feather the nest for the potential meaning that with a bond that's not um assuring level that comfortably you know you've got enough money to make it worthwhile so I know that Mr Parish had said staff's kind of examine this and it's coming very fast this is all looking at implementation July and with everything else staff does um it's going to be a tough call to not only respond to what the potential is by examination but also to amend codes to be prepared for if amending local codes assures local government that you have protected your citizenry because otherwise there's nothing in the bill that says the State of Florida who created this is going to come help the local community they're not going to come and fix the subdivision they're just going to say well just cash in your bond so please if you haven't read it please do read that particular Bill the other ones are almost as interesting but that particular one from my experience is one that really concerns me enough I'm writing a letter to say you guys really better put both hands on the wheel because you're about to go way faster than you can contend with what is wrong with the legislature well home home rule apparently is only in the jurisdictional boundaries of the State of Florida not in any subdivided jurisdictional boundary of a subdivided part of the state but if if I may ask Chelsea if you would at least bounce through the idea as a as a response to that bill and its provision to post bonds is there actually a limit of posting a performance bond and and and that means cash bond that doesn't mean what I referred to as a tri party agreement or even I did one that backfired as well with a letter of credit oh that's worth the paper it's written on but my opinion looking at this maybe perhaps local government in response to this can raise the an for the bond and make it a cash Bond and if somebody wants to incorporate that expedited process they have to they have to show the wherefor all and bond posting is a good way to show wherefor all as long as the statute doesn't cap the performance bond at something like 130% I I saw 120 turn your mic on please I saw 120 but I don't I didn't read it to say it capped it well it says the condition being that the applicant holds a valid performance bond for up to 130% of the necessary improvements and so I I don't know how the language will end up but if as long as there's no statutory cap on that we'd be happy to look into it yeah and maybe that again could be I I I would even also ask the question I don't know have you any knowledge whether that particular Bill specific question has had any input from the league of cities or from the association of County I don't have personal knowledge of that I'm sorry um I don't know if that's something that that the planning staff or and somebody could at least find out if there's I I haven't seen anything in there and that's one of the reasons I mentioned about the the Thousand friends of Florida uh legislative report they'll usually tell you who's written oppositions to it I hadn't seen anything come up to me that the league of cities is saying wait a minute this is not working i' be happy to share with you anything I find thank you member Rogers I just wanted to go back to uh your concern about tranquility and um I don't know I you suggested that we just go out and have a look at it and and I haven't had the chance to do that yet I intend to but um it sort of reinforced a question that I had in my mind which was to what extent are our rules or the master plans um being enforced um after they are proposed and uh I think I I ticked Brad off a little bit last uh last time with with my suggestion that sometimes things changed and and weren't caught um but I wondered whether is there a some sort of list put together um by the city that says what violations have been found uh in different new construction and what um fines have been levied or corrective action has been ordered um and and whether it has actually taken place is that something that that is uh produced I suppose I'm probably asking Addie here but uh and if it's not produced um I wonder if it might be produced and because I'd like to see it sure it's not produced and if you have a specific concern about a a development please send your request over and we can look into it for you okay well again I'm clear uh in my status tonight off the Das I never know how to pronounce that um you know what I can when I can move make a motion possibly nothing but um I just kind of wonder if maybe we oughtn't have that as a continuous sort of publication that comes to pnz Andor Council um you know just to kind of keep an eye on what enforcement is being done uh for people who are not following the rules that they say that they will well you can uh we can add that to the next agenda if staff agrees with it uh to give a update on a report such as he's asking for sure but again are you asking about a specific developments enforcement action no I really just I guess I was I I guess I sort of imagined that over the course of you know a month or two there would be I don't know people from the city representatives from the planning or code department or something who would go out and take a look at new development uh whether it's an individual house or whether it's a a subdivision or something that's being it's coming out of the ground and you know they said okay here's our plan but you know then our person out there says well actually they're not following the plan and you know like actually if you don't follow the plan there's going to be a fine or there's going to be you know there's going to be some kind of a consequence so we have site inspectors um and they're making sure that the development is moving forward in in conjunction with the plan if violations are found if the development if something's not per the approved plan they're required to make Corrections and that's when you come in with a final inspection at the end to sign off officially that everything has been built per plan and just based on on your experience I just don't know uh what like how often like they will not get the final approval if they haven't they they won't get a certificate of occy or something if they have not fixed the things that have been written up along the way correct so certificate of occupancy goes into the into the building permit realm so there's different levels of approvals here we're talking about site plans uh site plan cannot the the site inspection canot be final unless everything is per the approved plan so that is correct oh okay well um that's good to hear I guess I would uh probably certainly am I'm a little curious about Tranquility but I suppose that's already been address so um I believe in Edie you can correct if I'm wrong that um you can find a lot of those documents on BSA online and you can kind of follow how projects are going is that correct to be fair I I don't know I haven't looked okay um I know for certain um projects I've looked at if you go to BSA online um you choose Bard County and then the city of Titusville you can see where they are in the process um at some points they've had um staff notes that you could read and then at one Point those were taken off for certain projects but I know um before uh when we have a project come before us I typically go look at uh BSA online and you can read um some notes of how the process is going it might not be um all the information that you're looking for but I find it a really good um tool as I'm preparing for the meetings and if I have questions on certain developments I typically go look at that and then I'll do a request to Eddie for certain information sure I was going to add that if you do search bsna online and don't find enough detail for what you're looking for certainly contact us we're happy to provide you more specifics member g i one more thing I apologize I'd like to be ahead of the game I will not be in attendance on two meetings in the course of 2024 for vacation purposes so I won't be in attendance July 17th nor on November 6th okay and I'll send something yeah send it to Lorry if you would would Charles I was going to say um about I looked up that bill 812 and on a Florida Le of cities they do have it listed as OPP POS and when they do that they usually do of course send Advocates to the legislative them know what they think about so and they do oppose it so good to hear um I might make note that uh there was another person appointed to tec and in instead of Megan to be a joint member and that person um Wanted be on pnz but there was no vacancy and I've talked to uh council member Nelson and she's said we could have a representative uh I don't know what word she used a nonvoting representative to EC and as far as I understand it was M Mr Gad and M musos so is that correct yes okay so from now on you'll be representing us oh but um I think I declined and Mr Gard is going to proceed so I've heard you get the I door prize I got the door prize I think the the the the request that was asked to consider I didn't know if it was a voting member or just a membership I think they are alternatives too but you know if as much as I just gave my announcement of the holidays I won't be here I can't confirm but there'll be I guess whatever I saw the second Tuesday of the Wednesday following the first Monday on the sun of Sol it's the Wednesday in between these two meetings yeah somewhere like that there's going to be a meeting that I think I'll probably have to miss if it's up there but uh certainly if if I can help I will um it's reluctant that I do this I hope anybody here who's retired recognizes the reluctancy of being a retired person volunteering their time you won the duck duck goose contest something like that any other members the meeting is adjourned at uh 7:39