good evening everyone my name is Laura shiffon and I'm calling the meeting to order of the planning board for June 10th 2024 at 6:32 p.m. please join me in the Pledge of Allegiance Al to the of the United States of America and to the Republic for which stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all I want to thank all of our First Responders again and all of our veterans and those currently serving in our military we owe you a debt of gratitude this meeting is being recorded and it will be uploaded to the towns and YouTube channel I do not believe I have any additions or Solutions thank you um 1.5 review and approve meeting minutes of May 6 2024 and May 20th 2024 a motion I'll make a motion to approve the minut of May 6th and May 20th of 2024 I second that thank you is there any further discussion and um Beth you took into consideration what was email to you okay thank you um so hearing none roll call vote car off say yes Rob yes Laura sheffron yes thank you very much do we have a quum we have a quum yes for three of five oh okay and uh Andrew did let me know that it's his name so um I asked him if he could join us about s for the vote if he's able it's not mandatory because we have we have a quum that we can do it but um if you can join us that will be great right [Music] um you want to give your administrative report 1.6 we have four minutes before we see our appointment oh okay so just I'm just going to take this from the land use monthly report um an update 39 and Z Greenville Road recall a town meeting uh the planning voted unanimously in favor of the proposal and provided a written report to town meeting and I have further um submitted the required forms to the town clerk for it to process through the state uh let's see so uh so storm water certificate of completion for 27 scales Lane is ongoing however there was a site visit made and the site looks great um and everything is stabilized and um so we are waiting for a final um go ahead to to uh for the board to ask on that certificate of completion and um there was a letter mail that uh to 22 Main Street um email sent to 22 Main Street regarding that ongoing project and um the plan is to invite the owner to the June 24th meeting to talk to the board and that's something we're going to take care of this week so the draft the decision has been drafted for 108 to 112 West Meadow Road the board received a application for an age restricted development and Associated storm water management permit or uh 108 pitchburg Road and let's see um the mark towns and shev Bs um the board of selectman has approved the change of operation mode from um starting July 1 from uh regular schedule drop off and Pickups to a on call or a demand on demand service for users we're implementing that um over the next few weeks making that transfer over that's that's it yeah Hing that well Mark is going to be helping us with that um in terms of their website uh they'll have that update there the schedule update and the phone number for um Riders to call you have to call 24 hours in advance um and again if you're going on a Monday that means you got to call on a Friday and set it up okay um it's going to work same schedule uh same hours pick up some bu just that you need to take that extra step to to call them and make sure the bus comes that are regularly taking it now we'll get a flyer from the bus driver to let them know that it'll be changed to okay and so it'll be on our website to yeah okay um is that it thank you be 6:40 p.m we have an appointment and Charles SE derian is a candidate for planning board associate member okay did you want to say a few words um outside if I've served on the planning board before the reason being is that we have a lot of things going on in town right now and there had been some um meetings that there wasn't a quorum you know that the planning board is important and it needs to be a quorum so I was hoping to stay on the board until we find some other interest and glad to step in I just don't want to imped the work that you guys are doing with everything and that would just be for the associates great very appreciative I do I do I do have to add one thing I did check with the ethics Commission in regards to the position and there is no ethics issues involved select when I'm when I'm if I'm called upon to be a member it would be nothing to do with the board of Select okay and you're still alasan yes okay so I mean it it makes sense really if you're willing to be able to fill in you know well I understand it's frustration for for you guys when you want to hold a meeting or have a discussion and you can't vote on it I also see as I think more importantly the the residents not prolonging the the process because it it does seem to be timely sometimes so I want to make sure that uh they get adjudicated quickly I think that's my most important thing okay I appreciate that um so we would need or I'll entertain a motion to um put chaz's name forward to the board of Selectmen to be appointed you have to be appointed to the affiliate position the associate position I'm sorry so um motion to okay to appoint Chaz sex and deranian as an associate member of the planning board to the board of Select for approval for approval second second any further discussion all those in favor Carol yes Dar yes yes thank you very much you on the yeah the 18th on the appointment hearing if you will is June 18th and that's a joint meeting of the planning board and the board of Select for a vote a final vote Oh that's oh I was wondering why I had two days all right so that's the selectman's meeting for the appointments okay because um uh see the next one's at 645 if you don't mind I'd like to go right down to 4.1 you don't mind uh under correspondence we also have a volunteer response form from Lance uh J MCN candidate for planning board m he has stepped forward and is willing to take the empty vacancy seat who is Lance Lance okay our previous chairman good and we both served with them Chaz has served with them you know and um this this may help especially um this time of year uh because uh Andrew is busy busy me he's hang so he's got to do it during the light hours you know what's he doing haying oh haying for said hey I said he that could happen to yeah said hey yes like hey okay I will entertain a motion to please to send to the board of Selectmen um I'll MCN I'll make a motion to um send Lance MC's name as a planning board member for approval to the board of selected and that's until the next election in April of 25 okay chaz's appointment just to be clear will be through June 30th of 25 okay it won't start until July 1st it starts until yeah July 1 first that's what my appointment ends in 25 yeah I think I been till 25 I don't know what when in 25 for whatever um we're 26 am i 26 oh I'm 25 oh yeah 25 I'm 26 okay did you second and yep yep there's a second call vote on Lance Carol says yes Robert tan yes and Laura shiff yes so both those names will be on the 18th um okay 7 okay yeah and I won't be in town um does that have to be a joint meeting no yes yes it does ites everybody so that's 18 yes 7. do at 7 o' 3:00 four o'clock where I am so um I can do that and I have a two o'clock I actually have two meetings that day but um yeah I can do four o'clock so if it's like will that be right at like five minutes after or are you doing that when when should I plan on there I'm checking now okay thank you and I'll let andw okay that's 7 p.m. right only 18 okay we just made a majority yeah of the board yeah so if I'm on and you guys get on we should be fine until we get the two more appointments yeah okay and do we have our app I I have um yes I can be H at 7 o'clock so your time yes so that's four o'clock fine thank you very much okay um we now have 6:45 and this is a continuation of a public hearing for the right stuff here sorry this is 645 continuation of public hearing for 108 and 112 West Meadow Road applicant Philip Coletta I said that right oh yeah Chris star is here the engineer of record okay thank you I actually do believe Phil is on but I think he's traveling so hopefully I can answer all the questions okay Chris um and that's all I have to do I don't have to read anything else okay thank you um just you received the um our draft decision correct yes okay do you have any questions about that or does something not look right to you no no I'm I'm been going through it here for the last few minutes and everything uh seems to be in order I don't see any issues for our end okay um Jessica's not on is she yes she is she is just Jessica hello uh just wondering if you were able to uh read the decision the draft decision for this applicant uh yeah I Breeze through it quickly we have I have a few just sort of edit or um administrative edits like little typos and things but nothing of substance to changing okay so we could just agree that those edits be done and the other thing was on legal council's opinion and uh personally I agree with his opinion of the uh let's see right of Entry acknowledgement um because there's two names on the deed to the property both owners of the property should be signing this okay and I believe just George came down and signed is that the correct okay that that that's not an issue we can have um we can have his wife I think yeah Melanie she we can have her sign it right so above on on this form it says property owner George and Melanie Kimble but the statement says I George and it's only signed by George so legally we really do have to have all owners sign that that's not an issue okay and I think so between Jessica's comments and our Brief Review not doing every exhibit if Jessica's gone over it and um Chris doesn't have any um objections except for the one thing that we're adding and that is the for that document to have both names and both signatures yeah for the right of Entry okay having said all that I'll entertain a motion to approve uh the decision for 108 110 112 West Meadow Road okay I'll make a motion to approve the decision for the storm water management permit for 1081 10 and one West Meadow Road any other comments any other comments okay hearing none I'll take a roll call vote Carol Hoff say yes Robert Daren yes and Laura shiff yes signing it is incorporated but you could could you actually make the motion that was written in the decision so we can consistent it's right is it right at again yes right above where you sign so you make that motion yes with the understanding that you and Jessica will do whatever needs to be tweaked and um do I have to add that we want that form changed well I you can know that's can we just note it in the minutes then yeah it's going to be noted okay okay so what I heard was that on this date June 10th 2024 Carol hosts motioned and Robert theion seconded to issue a major storm water management permit to Philip coleta for 108 to 112 West Meadow Road for a period of two years with special conditions listed here in I already mentioned the second the second by the board M read the special conditions I mean and then you can edit [Music] them well there's nothing the motion I just right above it oh oh four well there's one two three there there's it's a motion oh it's a motion oh that's weird okay okay all right to be contain within this Motion One the storm water management permit does not include coverage of any construction activity occurring on 112 West Meadow Road assessor map number four block 20 plot one two once it once the certificate of completion for the as buil storm water management system has been issued the system owner shall operate and maintain the storm water infrastructure according to the operation and maintenance plan in perpetuity per the storm water regulations 175 d48 Perpetual inspection and maintenance three the applicant and or owner as appropriate shall Grant to the town of Townsen per storm water regulation 1 75-45 Section b a storm water management license for inspections and maintenance defined as a license sufficient in location and extent to access the property in all areas used for offsite storm water control in order to facilitate inspections and to perform required maintenance that's those are all things that are you already have that if if the board decides that that acknowledgement that right of way or right of Entry acknowledgement is sufficient it's still in there it doesn't mean that they have to provide another one it's simply a statement of it's right out of the regulations oh okay because right above it it says the has um provided all applicable documents needed so right but we've already said we're not accepting this document okay so then we want both both owners perhaps that to sign yeah that would be a good time to revise that special condition with exactly what you want okay so after my last statement of control in order to facilitate inspections and to perform required maintenance the applicant shall provide a right of Entry acknowledgement form that includes all owners that are listed on the deed and to be signed by all owners okay and that amended you the statement that I just made is added as an amendment to the original motion wouldn't that be added before um just if you had something to add I guess we just added it yeah okay so we just added for it's pretty benign if you will it's simply out of the regulation so yeah you can B is number four on item number three the last sentence um in order to facilitate facilitate inspections and to perform required maintenance shouldn't that be to inspect to facilitate an inspections and to uh supervise required maintenance we're not performing any maintenance no but they they are right that's what I'm questioning for clarity here oh no it says the applicant and our owner as appropriate the applicant's going to take care of this isn't like one of those this is not an easement for the town no or the town coming on property proper the inspections are are separate but I I think it refers to this document am I wrong yeah no it refers to this document in that if the O property owner has to go on to his property to because of the storm water drain okay that has nothing to do with the CH no it does actually I'm sorry I forgot that it replaces the E language that was originally in the regulation so in event that the town needs to go in this is his property the only reason they would need to go in is if the system failed right the owner was not you know taking care of it and it was impacting a public way of say siment all over West metal road and it was a public you know impact this was a complication from the two Property Owners there or two houses there right and this agreement is uh with the owner of 108 110 is not on that that's right we can do right out of the regulations so [Music] okay are we good Jessica Chris are we good oh I'm good y I think as long as you guys get it we're good to move on y okay so process did you amend it and then you vote on it again is that how you're doing it you mending your motion or how is out we what do you want whatever you want whether we amend it or it's number four okay you can amend your previous motion to include number four number four that you had stated I have it written down all right okay and then revote it just to make sure that I can write it I can't write it unless you say it let's just put it that way how [Music] come say that you amend the motion to add number four as as stated okay I already stated it I make a motion to amend to add number four to the motion you already to the previous motion already stated and do I have a second I second any further discussion are you all set Carol says yes Robert uh Robert Daren yes Laura shiff yes congratulations thank you very much have a wonderful night folks right what do you want to do about signatures um I'm gonna need tomorrow to brush it up and actually issue the permit itself which is a separate document so I can get that done tomorrow and if you guys want to come back and turn it it just dropped me in ready just let me know when I can run over well coming to vote tomorrow morning it's tomor morning oh that means I got to stay after the meeting and work on no turn yeah actually vot later well that could be good because if you want to stay all night Rob and I will be there at be here'll we'll be here at eight to go vote I didn't think so all right I was trying to help you out thank Okay so [Music] was 3.1 found um 17527 in the regulations that was it's really important that you update it now um because we had changed you had changed your fees and when I looked at that regulation 14527 yeah I realized that all the old fees were in it oh I just didn't notice a housekeeping thing yeah that's definitely a housekeeping thing um it just we were going in order and it just didn't occur to me it's about Consultants so here it's for employment of outside Consultants I would recommend that you take a few minutes and just edit that that's right out of the oh sorry I have one of those here here you do okay well I have [Music] this I [Music] will if you want to I think you could eliminate the fees on page right and just say as noted appendix e we could eliminate all of 17527 27 yeah 17527 fees oh yeah all expenses incurred by the town for processing the appli well wait a minute for processing an application shall be borne by the applicant whenever any extraordinary expense occurs that is not covered by the fee structure such items may be um so we're going to put this in a general fee plan well all these are already in the fee schedule right the separate one so we need to say delete item X or No 1 17525 the statement a needs to stay there right um all expenses incurred by the town for processing an application shall be born by the applicant exactly that's if that statement needs to stay there but whenever any extraordinary expense occurs that is not covered by the fee structure such items may be what I would just put something like CP schedule in in and not have any of this take H take H and just write it you know the following application fees have been are found in you know I just realized that they we should do this in conjunction 17526 which about employ yeah but that shouldn't change that's that's a state if if 175 d27 fees is only in conjunction for because it doesn't say that only in conjunction with appointment of outside [Music] consultant I oh I'm sorry I see it right there uh you're talking 17520 fees a a okay so that say sentence has to stay yes and then yeah you just the comment I think C Fe schedule okay it just H okay what's H um 17527 H but that's because because it's separate you have it as 17526 and then that goes ABCDE e f yeah and then then you have separate 175 d27 has an a yeah but you didn't get the rest of 1275 27 there's two there should be enough there's a hole there's a hole I hate the back side two sided yeah look at the back side how much of this do we need to keep well there's a lot of wording here I I think Oliver should just make it simple and just see appendix yeah this is all like just get rid of all to me just get rid of all of it and just say the appendix is it e for the fee schedule yeah there is a lot ofu here that really doesn't need to be right and so whatever application needs all the fees are in the fee schedule you would just tell them what fees apply yeah exactly there to whatever they're doing so G the policy of the board to wave application of supplemental fees for application submitted on behalf of the town but not the water department or the Regional School District or other Town agencies that are largely financially separate from the town nor any project for which Revenue other than the town's property tax or normal state aid is applicable I I would just get rid of everything just get rid of it all just yeah I mean if the board if if we know as a town that we're not going to do this we're not waving fees to these enti entities okay but if another situation happens for whatever reason say it's a negotiable tool with a developer I don't know the board can decide to wave the feate right right even if it's not in a regulation so what do you mean well if if you delete G for instance yeah are you yeah but G's very specific we know that it's we know what this is yes but uh do you want to just make one statement that says um these bees you know that we don't do it for anything that's municipal or I think I mean if you want I can run it by Town Council because he had some good suggestions for definitive subdivisions in terms of what to take out it was very you know heavy with ask if we could get rid of all of this she has anyut yeah thank you I always recog I was ready ready to jump off the cliff here you guys have one of your [Music] um you had in one of your I think you guys put it in there that you had the ability to W fees when when you felt it was necessary that's really all you need to I think it's earlier in the right yeah it's one of the earlier things we said you know it's at the discretion of the board or something right we're not you always requested you know because something is omitted does not mean it's pered correct so that's good so I think that the less is more right get rid of this because you you're putting in to my to my understanding now correct me I'm wrong but you guys are putting in a whole new fee schedule correct yeah it's already there it's already approved right so as this is an oversight so you use the first first sentence that you said and say um off Fe see appendix whatever it is that we don't have to review fees every year make sure it says that the planning board has discretion to weigh fees at any time or however you guys had it worded for your other thing yeah and we can actually put that on the schedule too that's what right on the okay yeah okay that's a really good idea a separate col yeah okay so let's look at that after you talked to Adam about it okay and because just just remind me again does this have to go before a body or it's done it will once this is part of the whole review and as you recall it does go through your vote and then public hearing again right so we can but only the public hearing only okay it does it doesn't have to go to town meeting the regulations are just a public hearing and we can collect them and stack them up and then like last time I think 15 different RS okay in one public hearing we do [Music] catch so hi hi I recognize you from Zoom from the uh from the teams meeting we had I'm Joseph Bo from mrpc Yes um board members of you want to introduce yourselves to hi I'm Carol hi Carol Robert hiet meet you know Jaz right now I'm liaison leison to this Sport and okay so we do have you on the agenda tonight um 7:15 yeah yeah at 7 2.3 it's not a public hearing so we can we can start early right uh yeah it's an appointment it's you know there are still people coming on I I noticed Veronica C came on oh okay who else is on possibility of so I suggest I would suggest waiting until okay all right is that that's thank you so um if I may for two minutes um tell you a little bit about this may or may not start something but um the bill ion dollar bond for infrastructure that's coming out there there was a there was a brief um uh talk about well when this the transfer TCH same guy that was talking about the transfer tax and [Music] um first of all it's over five years and it's 1 billion a year and what I heard not from the guy speaking to today but what I heard from our our um legislative person at the State Association was that that particular bond is for Southshore it's not for any place else in the state right wake up and they've been working on that that's been coming along for 10 years and just coming out with paid for studies to build the infrastructure for additional housing on the Southshore on the Southshore surprising to you how long did it take us to get Acres nothing in government surprises me about how long it takes takes forever and they waste so much money yeah so um um yeah I don't the other thing that I I was going to try to talk about today but I didn't get out was the thing okay Adu what's Adu accessory dring un it's an accessory Department okay and the new bylaw that they're adding to the legislature regarding adus in the in in the housing Bond Bill there is language authorizing adus by right um the one just passed the house by right by right and single family dwelling in single family dwelling uh yeah single family homeowner by right with limits like uh 800 square foot size and what we have actually it's 900 squet is that b bill h449 is that the same one I don't know the number of I I do not know the name off the top of my head but it's the billion dollar housing Bond bill that was just passed by the house yes and the and the uh that same guy from Gardner was talking about how they were both the rep from Westminster and Gardner was there today and they both had voted for this bill but this same bill and mostly they were saying because of the Adu the same bill um is the MBTA Community Bill they're tied together oh D well the MBTA Community bill was in the 2021 version of this Bond and this is added to that right what what they Chang now is added to that the adus by right single family I don't know if that was actually I haven't seen the language I don't know if that's added to the to um 3A the section 3A which is the MBTA law or if it's in another part of the zoning act okay I so for us I wouldn't think it was actually I wouldn't think it was connected to the MBTA law at all because it's Statewide it applies to uh appes to all town so I don't think an NBTA connection but still we have to zone for it and that's not and that particular thing is not uh do you know if it's just for relatives only it is not for relatives only okay and so that does not have to be affordable and it have to be affordable be so this this is really a break for anybody who wants to have um has a big house wants to have a separate apartment wants to still live there it doesn't even have to be family they can rent out the house and live in the accessory right right they could rent out the house and live in the access the question at hand the question at hand is we already have permitted ad0 units that were tied to Affordable yes to Affordable and fair housing and will that eliminate those those people don't have to do that anymore that's a question those are family let the bill let the bill go through first because it's still being ratified so I would say wait till the bill goes first before we can really answer but that's why I wanted to talk to them if Margaret gets on well you know because um we would have we could add units maybe not in the MBTA manner with the 15,000 or whatever they want um but we could it it makes sense when you have such a housing shortage to be able to add a unit to your house right if you want it and and it the board of house approves it well the question that I would have is that if they are getting away with the affordable portion of it that that would eliminate a lot of affordable units that are currently on the housing inventory we need to know exactly how much that is exactly because the ones that are on the inventory are affordable because they're family corre okay we know what happens family dies and in order for that to stay affordable well and then Cas I don't even know if that one that I'm talking about and you know about I don't know if that was considered on the affordable list although they were willing to do it at the time but the cost the cost is prohib it's cost prohibitive for somebody in a single family home to do an affordable unit by the state's definition yes I would that actually that was one of the points I was going to come here and make make to you tonight uh do the uh the affordable adus U to qualify to your subsidized housing inventory I don't really see a way that unless you run into a person here or there who's a great altruist that that can really be made to work without a subsidy somewhere it's a subsid called this subsidized housing inventory for a reason it generally because you generally have to put some sort of subsidy in it in order to reach these price points the only subsidy that is being done in those units by the state the way the state law is right now yeah is by the homeowner yeah because they have to pay another agency to do the lottery yeah so is not affordable to do which by the way makes me think that that um the case you were thinking about where it's the family in the unit that's probably not one of your affordable units because you're not allowed to have preference for family in those most lotteries and stuff they're not no no so that one must have been could must not have been on us Shi No Veronica has a question yes Veronica start discussion um I'm curious then what is the difference between an accessory dwelling unit and just a plain old apartment and accessory dwelling unit is a type of apartment it is a category of apartment you could have an apartment in uh three family you could have an apartment in a in a high-rise building yeah you can have an apartment in two family an accessory drilling unit is a type of apartment that's uh an accessory use on a house with a single family home there's a second smaller unit it's a category of apartment gu the is that M you want to start the discussion now it's 7:20 yes I think we already were we're in discussion with Mr Doyle um why don't you start your discussion so in in those categories okay we're well aware of the hardship situations with families that's fine now we're talking about do this include guest houses uh would this include um you know other type of shortterm occupants um so oh you're worried about the the yeah some a bed and breakfast in one unit then and then going on Airbnb right um well an Adu ordinance can regulate uh a short short-term rentals a town can have a short-term rental ordinance they could apply that short-term rental units ordinance to all of the rental housing in town or they could apply it to some of the rental housing in town I don't think we have that is there any legislation that we know of right now that burdens a potential homeowner to mass bear housing is there any legal language that links that now that links what in other words control of the tenant oh um I somebody who builds an Adu and has a tenant that they're renting to would be subject to the same tenant laws as anybody else who owns an apartment it out absolutely it's still fair housing even if you don't have a license just to rent to sell you know real estate if you're a landlord fair housing plays on everyone everyone so there's no discrimination allowed so if you have a poor tenant too bad for you right tough to be a landlord today I'll tell you um so fair housing app applies and you if if somebody who was affected by it let me get this right this is now an established law um well it's only passed the house um it would still have to pass the Massachusetts Senate and be signed by the governor and it still can change and it still yeah yes it's yeah it still can change it's just going to the Senate now no fair housing won't change the bill itself but the bill including adus by right it might uh might might or might not make it through with the adus is that a separate bill or is it all integrated it's all integrated but they can but I mean there's a thousand subsections of this law out a short and uh the Senate's going to change some things and we'll see what they change I think it's a good thing because it does allow for additional housing units which we don't have that's that's the carriage okay but it's like anything else it's not easy to accomplish your goals you still have to go by the rules well most people have to go by the rules whose rules is the question the laws whose laws yes that's the problem and it's all in favor of the tenants so beware when you want to be a landlord no this is this is government control of housing on your personal property I don't care how you look at so don't put don't put an Adu on your well you can't so is that discrimination or not right what did I put in an Adu she has a house I have a house we both want to put adus she's acceptable we having control of that ad unit subject to Mass fair housing I am not okay she doesn't live there per se all right but so I do this is my neighbor this is right across the wall for me and I have no control of who occupies that space if there's any disturbance or problems with that face because now I have to deal with mass fa housing and exactly there's a lottery as to who's going to be there that's only if they do it as an affordable unit though no if they do it as an affordable unit is a lottery if it's your if it's a market rate unit you're just a you're just a regular landlord taking applications no Lottery also if you live in the dwelling there are things that you can if you will discriminate against with in a two family unless they've changed this as well nonsmokers pets you can do this because you have allergies or you get sick or whatever whatever you can substantiate um so you're telling me I should I I wouldn't be able to have smokers or or if I was in a two family or had an accessory apartment I couldn't have that physically I couldn't have that so are you telling me I shouldn't worry about this I never tell anybody not to worry no no I'm just I I need to be sure I feel right about it if you're gonna do it then you need to do do diligence and read up on what you right landord is not for everybody the vast majority of single family homeowners do not want to have a tenant on their property the main caveat to this is by right which means by right if you wanted the way the current the way the current law is is that if you have an accessory dwelling it is either with family or it's affordable according to what we have in our bylaw as well you only have those two choices by right means it gets rid of the affordability Clause so that you may rent to anybody you choose and not have to make an affordable so that by right and you can't be denied if Board of Health approves and everything else you have a right to build and yeah and let me just Veronica's had her hand up for a long time Veronica I I guess my I'm I'm the chair of the affordable housing trust and I guess my question is so you have adus by right that's fine but if it removes the affordability piece of it how do we um provide affordable housing in town through um through accessory apartments or apartments even that aren't big complexes um I guess our Adu bylaw and I was on the planning board when that was um amended the idea was you you could have an accessory apartment special permit however if you're not doing it's intended for family if you're not renting to family or you don't have you know um then there's the affordability piece of it which helps the town out so it was a a you know a it's not street so these accessory dwelling units by right then become market rate and it how does that help the the person who needs housing okay so let me explain something to you just a minute I spoke about this before towns and rentals are market rate because we are middle sex County so their market rate anyway the problem is it there's no nobody in their right mind if it wasn't a family member is going to go affordable because it mandate the state mandate Ates that you use what I forget the name of the agency to do your lottery and it's and I I talked to them and it's anywhere from maybe 10,000 if you're lucky 15 to 25,000 to hold a lottery that's why it works for like where Coop where they did that in Copperfield the developer did that copper Smith because it was a developer who was going to have several unit somebody in a single family dwelling cannot afford to meet the state standards of affordable an accessory apartment unless it's a family member because then they don't have to have the lottery so the the only way it's effective is when you have multif family housing yeah and you allow a certain percentage affordable to give the developer a break on whatever the cost is so that's the subsidy or a density bonus or something like that and that's another appointed agency by the way that's making money we do have the um the possibility in our bylaws for a density bonus um I don't think it's or to require that there be an affordable piece to it I don't think it's ever been used other than in a development like copper Smith it's never been used um I I don't know I guess I'm puzzled it was used there that was that was a um that was part of the negotiations I wasn't on the planning board then but it took like seven years was that a 40b yes okay yes it's a 40b so that's a little different is one affordable program amongst others I was asking if this one this copper field was that buil under permit yeah it was a 40b okay it was a 40b but if you read our bylaws we do uh the planning board has the option of requiring a certain percentage in anything being affordable and um I don't think that's ever been um put into play I'm not really familiar with development patterns in town and uh the well this inclusionary zoning where a percentage of the units built are required to be affordable um there aren't any those generally we don't have inclusionary zoning we have optional inclusionary zoning right those typically kick in at you have to provide 10% for any project with 12 or more units with 10 or more units right um are you having multi-unit subdivisions built here no that would TR no you're well we have I mean up on North End Road um there were how many five or six houses up there um you know there have been a few not that many recently no right so the qu the question I was asked is how to how the town can provide affordable um housing um the first thing I want to say is that specifically adus are not going to be an effective way to provide affordable housing no the affordable housing programs are just not designed for individual units they're designed for larger projects I was struggling today trying to figure out a way to maybe provide a subsidy using low-income housing tax credits complete Deb end it's not not even worth explaining to you what the how how that would work you know adus adus are very can be very helpful in our housing affordability crisis in addressing the supply side and helping to fix the market W but they're not an affordable program right they can't work an affordable program and quite frankly I think that uh sometimes people would want to stick an afford uh uh an affordable element onto an Adu law specifically as a poison pill because they know it would make it impossible to actually build the adus well I I think there's a lot to talk about affordable housing no matter what kind of legislation you're apply it to okay and uh what all of it in terms of government definition is subsidized hous somewhere okay now currently what is going on is they want these what small home things now tiny homes what do they call tiny homes tiny homes well it seems to me that affordable housing can come from the construction in industry in terms of construction Systems and Technology okay I know that personally um then as far as Communities going instead of being confronted with high density housing things um we don't have any provision in our zon and bylaw for tiny house situations okay which the same kind of topic as an Adu unit kind of yeah so can I can I jump in here and say that maybe you're not aware of it because I know the Housing Authority has talked about cluster housing they've talked about cluster neighborhoods and they've talked about tiny tiny houses we're talking about it we don't have provided that's right right so I'm trying to get this to a point where the local Community can develop its own method of providing that uh and in terms of I mean I've been dealing with affordable housing for Generations okay and for example in the town of Townsen here okay I had a program where I go to 10 tobs and say what is your distressed properties in on the tax so if I could get 30 units from 10 Towns three each I produce Mass housing there cost effectively just the same way uh without a subsidy um so I can go to every one of those towns and get a waiver on permits and stuff I could go to Anderson window and Order car car train car loads of Windows Direct from the manufacturer without any middleman okay so their technology is there um that's how you do affordable housing through the industry not through legislation like this it's uh and we all end up paying for it and we pay a premium um so I mean fortunately I have that awareness that most of the public doesn't but um but in our own town here we can do zoning ourselves right so let's talk about zoning all right how how do we get to some more friendly uh overlay District multif family okay um I mean this that's where we want to go something Progressive not that's what we need help with something that will be palatable to our community right right and so um the uh the the MBTA law um we've we've been talking about affordable housing the the um MBTA communities act it isn't an affordable housing program they actually cap the amount of affordable housing that you that you're allowed to um require as part of it at 10% it's a market rate housing program it's was written to try to address the market conditions the severe shortage the severe housing shortage particularly of rental housing that we have and it's it it's really a different approach than the than affordable housing laws it's meant to loosen up the regulation that has squashed housing production uh so particularly squashed rental housing production um affordable you know subsidized affordable units are obviously not the only problem that we have with housing affordability in this state there's also housing affordability problems for people who are H above the levels of qualifying for subsidized housing but who are having trouble finding appropriate units correct sizeit um about three weeks ago Forbes magazines real estate division came out with a study of the um rental housing markets in America and they found that Wester County Metro area which is basically um central Massachusetts which we're a part has the third most competitive rental housing market in America they're looking at things like the number of units available per 100,000 population they found in uh Wester County 94 uh rental units were available for every 100,000 population and they looked at the rate of increases in rents and taking into factors like that they found that W uh Wester County Metro statistical area was the third most competitive rental market in America to put that in perspective Greater Boston was 12 we all know there has been a real real shortage of rent housing in this region for decades I could have told you that it hasn't gotten better since my wife and I couldn't afford couldn't find a unit to rent 25 years ago and uh in the meantime the Greater Boston housing crisis has moved into the area and now we're in a really bad spot we have a severe shortage of particularly of rental housing and so that's what the MBTA law is about the production of rental housing market rate rental housing so we can give you a zoning bylaw which picked spots you know and everything is hypothetical and as they said even today at the hill um you just need to have your bylaw in there and we know that you're not going to build most most the guy said most of them you and where you're going to get this mandated by law y you're not going to end up being able to build and we know that because we don't have the infrastructure to do what they want us to do again all these things come to question and nobody provides an explanation okay well that's what that's what I'm here for I'm here to I'm here to help you why through this process why does Townsen because it's hooked by a boundary line with the rain train in Pitsburg has to provide high density housing not high density housing it's not no it's not high density what's 15 units an acre it's a two family house on ju on just under 6,000 square feet one two family house one two a two family house on a lot of 58 by 100 works out to not clear that is not clear all right I'm GNA tell you why all right so right now this planning board has been working on three sites with consultants and everything provided by the state large large sit large sites right I've seen the right so they vary up to 40 acres from 12 to 40 acres y all right so are you telling me if I take and the Mandate says how many units it has to be yeah 187 how many is z for yes right so in those three sites that we have narrowed down to all right if we take the 40 acre y site and put all 187 units there is one scenario okay so the question is the bigger the site because it says the whole zoning district has will allow 15 units per acre uhuh does that mean if we meet 187 units now with the 40 acres that there's extra Acres left for another 187 units you know what the answer to that is you know what I'm saying only if you reson to the entire a larger parcel yes so the question I need or we need to present to our town is which of these aples should we do should we do the smallest one do the biggest one because what's going to happen next and the thing that upsets me the most is in just the last three months they passed a legislation to subsidize these developers now okay so isn't it ironic that we have this MBTA program that we're mandated on and isn't ironic that a year later the government is giving subsidies for the developer when in the beginning they say don't worry nothing's going to happen because it's going to be too expensive for a developer to do anything in Townson where where is the um money for the subsidy that's going I didn't see that or hear that in any of the I'll show it to you I so how much subsidy are they giving for Townson it's not for sounds and specific it's to developers yeah so all right now the other question is here we have a city of fxburg which is kind of a distress Community you know it's trying to survive economically there's a lot of distressed proper there there's already high density there wouldn't it seem logical that if you're going to benefit the MBTA and get people in mass transportation you put them closest to where the train depot is right not seven miles in the woods where we have to provide a portable bus or have everybody drive to the city of Pittsburgh to park in a parking garage that we have to subsidize so it's just and the other thing that's ER radical who came up with 15 units per acre nobody in the construction industry would ever use that number every housing unit is based on number two or units of two so I don't know where this all came from but it is there's so much that could be done that's much better and then I worked diligently in our this community here trying to get something that would be compatible and palatable to our town we have three distinct Vis villages in this town and any one of these Mass things in it would change that whole image so I was trying to collect different areas of of town that may have been distress Properties or could be recycled for a new youth to meet the 87 units I the whole concept I was slapped in the face and told no you can't do it all has to be under one concentrated area so that's not cooperating with the community at all I'm gonna um let's let's get focused okay uh this isort to us please because I yeah because we can't we can all be frust ated with what the state has done and what we're being mandated for but you do have something in front of us and we should look at what the possibilities may be okay I looked at it too so you had seen the um previous draft of this uh B that um my that uh Jonathan had drawn up yeah Jonathan's not not working with this anymore but I also see everything on the 15 unit thing crossed out yeah um we yeah we yeah we we can go by each one one by one okay um but the basic um premise the the big idea behind um this uh this change that I drew is I I did I don't think it is in the town's interest to preclude the their MBTA district from being developed with singles single family homes two family homes or smaller multifamilies I don't don't think that you should draw that your zoning should lock in the big townhouse campus type of development that uh sure it should it needs to allow for that if that's the direction that a developer wants to go but it might be more more consistent with your Town's vision and more appropriate for the site uh to have smaller buildings smaller and smaller scale and we wouldn't want and the way that the bylaw had been written it would have concluded that and really steered your developers towards the Big Campus type type development okay so we were maybe falsely I don't know but I I mean I remember everything that Robert was just saying um thinking that we couldn't that we were mandated to do this by the state you are required you are mandated to allow multif family housing in this District you are not mandated to only allow multif family housing you can allow multif family housing and two family housing and single family house it doesn't say that I don't see so here's the thing when they say give you a minimum you a a a maximum that you're allowed to do you can always build less than that where you have Zone that allows up to that allows single families two families and multifamilies someone's allowed to build a single family think about your no it's the density formula yeah the 15 units per acre okay how else can you interpret that you can interpret that as you need to allow people to build at 15 units per acre no it's a minimum it is not it means that's right it is not the minimum you people do not have to build at 15 units per acre these develop the zoning has to allow developers to choose to build at 50 units per acre if they want but if they want to build at half that density they're also allowed to so did we that's correct okay that's exactly the point I was saying if I have a 4 AC lot and the V goes in there and develops 10% of the lot all high density three level high units okay which that means another developer can come after later and increase that yes right but remember your first developer he's only building on 10% of the lot and he can only build 10% of the units that are allowed on the overall line because he's only got 10% of it so when another so what you're describing now is just phasing this chunk is built first and then this chunk and then this chunk but it's all built up to a maximum of 15 units per acre and that's not really different all three of those chunks were built at the same time so so from this town's perspective what is most advantageous for this town to have a larger overlay District or a smaller uh I would yeah I a smaller overlay District you I would recommend have a Zone the number of Acres you need what so that when built at if they was built out at 15 units per acre you'd get to your 187 works out to 12 point something works out to about 13 and the other question is all the sites that we have are pretty much a pretty much open natural space I've been told I haven't seen real legal language but if you accept this by law this over lot you cannot have um mixed juice and whether they have changed that policy or not but that's what I learned you cannot have mixed use you um and then then you you you add in the other factors about developer I legislators every year every three years increases the building code what added adds cost to all this the rule you're thinking of about um I'm sorry repeat what you just said before the building code repeat what you just said before your point about the building code how about they increasing the building code if had more costs they keep add changing it more restrictive and before that you were making another Point um uh I was talking about mixed use yes mix okay the rule was that you couldn't require mixed use you could always allow it but you were not but towns were not allowed to require it uh they then there were they the state got so much push back that they changed their rule you can now have an area in which you require mixed use and that can um you can use allow it you can always allow have to require it but we can allow it you can always allow it but the rule was uh requiring it there were towns that wanted to require it because they wanted to put put their their um their MBTA communities District on their main street but they didn't want to see their main their commercial Main Street get wiped out and replaced by residential so they wanted to require them to put storefronts on the first floor with the residents above and originally the state said no they eventually caved and said okay you can have that be part of your district and you can meet up to 25% of your units there exactly my point fitzburg downtown Main Street vacant storefronts those properties have been there for 150 years paying taxes every year the the people that own them can't afford to upgrade them and improve them why can't they those upper levels be called uh make up this uh a portable yeah and Pittsburgh has thousands is on the hook for thousands of units and they have they have done that they have reson basically downt uh in well that's what they're trying to do okay so why do they have to come to Townson when it's right there all the services are there all the all the commercial spaces there or they have the infrastructure there the sewer the water the power and the train yeah this bill was bit much was is much was clearly written for the conditions in Eastern Massachusetts we don't think it's very well written for North the rural and the other point is you have to understand the people that live in Townsen choose to live in Townsen they could have chose to live in an urban area they could have chose to live in a suburban area and they can chose to live and they chose to live in a rural area so that is an infringement on what we bought our property for what we decided why we wanted to live in Weston versus uh Halifax um so all of it is just not thought out properly you know not any discretion figure out a way to deal with it and that's what I'm here for tonight so just to clarify so even though I clearly read that it's the minimum 15 units per acre but you're saying that it could be a single Family House a duplex you yes listen it's 15 units per acre the requirement is that you Zone to allow people to build up to 15 units per acre you cannot have your zoning uh limit your multif family housing to less than that people have to be allowed to build up to 15 units per acre but as you already know from all of your zoning people don't have to build up to the maximum if you have a 10 foot uh sidey yard setback people are allowed to build 20 feet further away if you have a a district in which multif family buildings up to six units are allowed you can put in a two family because I remember somebody was here I forget who was here this is what talking about that and I specifically asked would a like a duplex count towards that housing and I was told no I wasn't there for the conversation so this is nobody District of reasonable size y have a minimum gross density of 15 acres per 15 unit unit per acre that's the zoning you have that's what your zoning must allow your zoning must allow that subject to any further limitations imposed by section 40 of chapter 131 and Title 5 which won't allow it right of the State Environmental code established pursuant to section 13 of chapter 21A so you have your zoning has to allow people to build up to build at that density but there is no there's but zoning doesn't require people to build at the maximum that they're allowed to so our zoning can just allow for all of this yes doesn't mean it's going to happen they still have to come before and get a permit they still they still have to do Title Five and they still have the the aquifer protection area and all that stuff right well yeah although the Acer protection area that's okay that's one limitation and I get and I explained this in the um memo I wrote about your site plan review you cannot have any local zoning that imposes a special permit not just you can't make multif family in this Zone by special permit if you put your Zone somewhere like in a water uh water supply Protection District where anything that goes there needs a special permit you've now made your MBTA Zone require a special permit for multif family housing and you can't do that this generates another problem but the zoning can allow for all these these things without a special per yes they have I I don't have a problem with a special permit issue I that makes sense okay what I do have a problem is when I look at the three sites that we're going to be recommending to our town they're the most they are the optimum sites the best real estate in the town for future growth it's been scrutinized on location and proximity to this and the aquifier all right so we're putting that all aside the most desirable property that would make for Quality high-end housing I would imagine um here when somebody else in the future when that's all developed is going to be dealing with all the conservation and the aquifier and everything else that everybody else has to deal with so I'm like what are we doing here and how do we plan the future of our town you know um so I'm not sure I know what you're saying because these are the three Parcels that we selected that's right okay they are on the lunenberg line which is one of the reasons I right I there were a lot of pros and cons of these sites I understand that but it's only but what bothered me okay we sort of were consulted in this direction okay based upon information that was available then what disturbs me now is I've just heard tonight that they're modifying the policy when all of this has been based on what we originally understood so what does that mean all right so in the in the beginning one of the sites that we considered was on the East end of town yeah but it's because of the aquafer that that and the water department was not in favor of that so when the feedback comes back from your departments I agree that something should have been done there mixed use okay would have been awesome well we already have commercial down there we already have have water down there we already have uh uh mixed use which would be ideal for people to go instead of driving in their car out of Pittsburgh or somewhere else to get their groceries you know um but tooning but it's in the aquafer district and requires a special permit it's not in the it's not in the high priority aquifer either high water table and big and really we got to deal with the acfer no matter where we go all right no matter what we do all right so it's a matter of the cost associated with dealing with the Acer and so now we've given this Prime Property that has the least amount of regulatory resistance that's virgin most of it's virgin land when we could have collected different parts of our town to get that 187 units so there is uh one that's a good that's what uh uh you can't you can only go just so far with that there are requirements about the district at least 50% of it has to be contiguous that's see you have to have at least one big you can have one and then some other tell me why why why does it have to be contigous and and also minim there are there are minimum sizes for each parcel but you're I think you end up with fewer Acres than the minimum than the minimum size um the contiguity once again Mak the contiguity rule makes a lot of sense if you're talking about a a a commun rail community and B it even makes sense if you're talking about the uh about an Eastern Massachusetts suburb which is largely built out like that I look look it is a waste of our time for us to sit here and talk about how this law could good all right I can um I just I just had one question on F what is it is it packing it's parking yes the language had said one parking space shall be provided for each dwelling unit I changed that to at least one parking space shall be provided no well because it was F1 and F2 cuz F1 says at least one parking space shall provided for each dwelling unit and then F2 says no parking area shall contain more than one parking space per bedroom per unit per bedroom so I don't get the difference between the two uh the second one is about parking is they build a two bedroom unit you can't all right so which is dwelling unit what a unit an apartment bom orom okay so then what is it a per what's the difference between that's what I didn't understand the difference between that F1 and F2 if you have two bedrooms you need one for each bedroom parking space for each bedroom f1's a minimum F2 is a maximum yeah and there F1 is a minimum you're going to provide one or more you park parking spaces per unit but how high can you go if you build a four-bedroom unit you could provide four spaces for that unit the I guess I still don't you can provide two okay so does the town have control on that or not it has town in terms of drying the zoning what it wants the dwelling unit just the one bed I'm sorry the town has control over its zoning over what rules it puts in its zoning how many unit parking spaces how many parking spaces you want per unit all right so that applies to this 50 foot set back from the street so we have control on that too this is your zoning this zoning P that you be adopted forom you have control and then these these rules would apply well why does it say here in a one dwelling the following dimensional standard shall apply oh oh oh the red okay so there had been a previous doc a previous version of this bylaw written um by um uh um someone in my office Jonathan um the red are my changes since then your changes yes my changes since then and these are your recommendations yes these are my yes these are my recommendations and I'm recommending this in order to not lock in right I the large the large multifam building campus type of developments and ow um smaller types of uh development so let's just take the first one Frontage exception yes Jonathan had entered this Frontage exception there no that it doesn't say front exception 10 feet it says front exception and there's nothing there uh M says 10 feet no that's a second colum yours says set back from Street 10 where are you on the table what are we talking about then I'm I confused on the left side of that table you're looking at it says lot requirements and on the right side it says setback requirements so that 10 feet you're looking in the setback column where it says setback from Street 10 feet front yard set back 10 feet side yard set back 10 feet right but over to the left and the lot requirements there was a frontage exception um I am recommend I I had that's the question that I had asked about this concept of a frontage exception J I think Jonathan was going to introduce it um largely for the same purpose that uh of of uh not NE of not locking in the giant multif family style development um I think we can take that I I didn't know exactly what it meant and had asked to get some Fe um some um commentary back from the people who've been working in the town and they didn't seem to know either so I'm just knocking that out I don't think we need a frontage exception we just have the frontage requirements which we currently have 50 feet 200 in to that's set back oh this is what we said right stb is is what it is 50 ft from the road that's current current right yeah yes and then down here in red I don't have red didn't print it out 50 here can here single family and two family and this is apartments and multif family they're two different dwelling right this is the heart of what I'm coming to to to um introduce to you tonight I'm recommending two sets of dimensional Reg ulations one for multif family okay and one for single and two family okay okay if somebody's building multi wants to build in the big multif family campus style we need one set of rules larger larger setbacks and whatnot but if they're building single and two family small lot homes then we want then a second set of uh um uh uh dimensional standards would be more appropriate and be for example say you have you were talking about a thre story tall um 20,000 square foot multif family building with you know say it's a 20 or 24 unit building or something yes you're not you're not going to want that 10 feet off the street right some now somebody builds a little house a single or a two family house with a front porch you don't need that to be 50 ft back off the street and as a matter of fact if you impose these big 50 foot setbacks and stuff you're not going to be able to put a little house on a lot on a little lot and you're that type of devel if we took our districts and planned them for tiny homes with lower setbacks and requirements would that qualify um the rule would you be able to satisfy your MBTA law with that no the NBTA communities law specifies that you have to allow multif family housing at a density of 15 units an acre that has to be something that's allowed so we have to allow uh multi in that if you were doing mix use would you be able to do like a cuac of tiny homes in that development mixed either multif family single homes and homes when you say um would you be able you mean would a developer who's building in this multif family overlay District yes a developer would be able to choose if they wanted to to do a project that has multif family two and single family homes in different parts all right so let's take the 40 acre lot that's at the end where lunenberg line is town designates that the meeting the MTA program I don't like the MBTA program but the law is there in the town approved it so I go and buy the 40 acres and I put in tiny homes legal the town the town has met all of its requirements under the law the town is required to Zone and we go whatever anybody does on that lot is up to them it does not have to be multif family housing at 15 units an acre it can be other things that I can so the if I may ask the board is the fundamental concept that I'm offering here that we should not lock developers into the large multif family campus style and should at least leave a pathway for them to build um smaller more human scale Styles and the way and how about my strategy for doing that which is to have two sets of dimensional regulations one for multis and one for singles and twos right are we okay so yes correct me I'm not sure about the um maximum coverage uh excuse me minimum lot size as 6,000 square feet how you going to do that with septic systems right you you know we it's funny you should ask that I uh was sitting with with my boss uh H who's done a lot of uh planning in rural communities and she did the exercise what's the smallest lot I could possibly put a house on and meet the setbacks and everything for septic and she came up with something ridiculous like she could build a single family home with septic on 3,400 F feet like come on no way it's I mean so I mean they it I wouldn't entirely rule out that somebody could put a single family home on 6,000 square feet with with a septic it would be tough a tiny home maybe it would be a system unless they limit the footprint and limit the bedrooms and stuff but who bus two bedroom single family homes any who builds two bedroom single family homes anymore so if yeah I I if that 6,000 I I wanted that number to be lower than the number for the multif family we're trying to make this path route we're trying to make this route appealing for if you have a multifam or an apartment style building and they there's going to be multiple units you are not going to get I do not believe a four bedroom property whether it's I don't know a two or four unit building on 8,000 square feet you need a separate septic for that yeah yeah I yes I I think in a sense a lot of these um minimum lot sizes are going to be swamped by by the septic by the need for the septic yes so in this 40 acre parcel even though it sounds like a lot of land I think we should allow for these things but we have to be more realistic on what you're going to need for a lot size I mean this this property is set up so that somebody's gonna have to put a road in obviously a developer has to come in and what's going to be the best use of the property as a total and then look at sections of it whether it's five acres here 10 acres there you know seven acres here for different uses but you you're going to have to have those kinds of um acres to be able to accommodate something that's not public sord now the one thing about down there one of the talking points was it's next to lunenberg now I don't know how far the pipes are for sewage but you've got two choices there either Fitchburg or lunberg for tians yep and that'll allow for for more um housing if he goes that way but it's going to be infrastructure the big one are the big things here yeah uh lunenberg I don't know I mean what do you do with your own Wells I think everybody in town well I mean affable housing crisis okay or housing in general crisis I think everybody in town wants to do something St whatever it's the whole way this came down as a mandate it doesn't matter no wait it does matter okay will you wait hold it let me finish so we sit here now talking about realistic stuff about tiny homes and lot sizes and septic okay and helping us to decide what to recommend to the town here the thing that scares the out of me is another government another time in give us another mandate saying you have to put in a septic system you have to provide the water otherwise we're going to take your state funding away that's exactly what happened here and what I see now scares me to death because they legislature already approved funding for developers so here we are thinking well this won't happen quickly it won't happen here and it won't happen quickly the money's already funded for other areas and that's a lot of money I'm just telling people I don't trust any of okay you don't have to trust it if we don't pass something they're going to mandate it and we won't have a choice we won't be able to sit here as a planning board and say oh but our zoning says we can allow this yeah okay we won't be able to do this they're going to mandate what we can do and what we can't do somebody ask another question because I've heard on the news off and on that this NBTA whatever goes before these towns and it gets voted down and I'm not there is a law case right now I'm not sure what there's 11 towns fighting it right now every time it's comes up I hear they vote it down they voted down oh you're probably the you're only hearing about the ones that get voted down because that's controversial and a big deal right I mean there many more communities have passed that doesn't make the paper Zing amendment is generally State my but they don't let us buing those places are building what makes sense for our town do you understand I I do understand and I've got my own criticism I just there is no there's no give and take the town benefits Zero from it all I mean we get no benefit from any of this other than you'll be able to keep your state funding and we just had found out that the state hasn't even subsidized our transportation for our school which was promised when they founded it so I mean so you can't you can't rely on we can't but you know what we're gonna have to we're gonna have to do the zoning we need zoning we need zoning that we can have right so getting to that point getting to that point of the three lots that we have should we be thinking about the smaller lot or the 4 acre lot I would like to point out that you don't have to zone go by lot lines if you ended up at 40 acres because you just thought you had to take this guy's entire land and includeed in the zone you don't you don't no the zoning boundaries don't have to follow lot lines oh all right that makes a big difference to we just have to provide for 17 78 there there is a minimum size for towns in the uh the uh for different categories and there's minimum numbers of um units that you have to provide and so much of it has to be contiguous yes or and it can be spotted as well no contiguous an you can have some that's scattered about but it mostly needs to be but it mostly needs to be continuous wait a minute when did that change that's not a change no I heard I'm repeating what I've heard it's it's it's just that yours your requirement is so small that having multi sites wouldn't really make wouldn't really make sense make any sense there's a there's a minimum size that any District needs to be which I think is 15 acres and I think you can meet at at 15 units in that I think you meet yours at less than 15 Acres you you you get up to your number so we need 12 acres that get 178 units if we pass the zoning bylaw we as a board have identified some properties but that doesn't mean it can't be another property right right uh well do zoning bylaw will apply to the town it's not going to apply specifically well you have to one area to have no we have you have to rezone a district you have to pass a bylaw and then you have to rezone a district that that bylaw applies to you have to change your zoning with an overlay District okay all right and we should do it for the minimum we need to do andree say I am mares I came I came Jaz okay he's waiting patiently two two points Point number one is when when um you and I were part of a discussion about another parcel on what we were going to put there and we talked about multi-use which meant we were thinking of putting one building in with several units another one maybe single family homes another one with cluster housing right that's kind of what I see here I don't see it being you know a six-story tenement building kind of thing or what did you call it a high-rise not a highrise but a like a campus yeah you know campus housing something like that that's number one number two is you know the the I understand everything that you're saying is very very important for you to bring those points out but we need to look at the task at hand and the task at hand is quite simply to write you know to write zoning that you you as as a board can put in there that's that's your option that is your choice to get it zoning in so that you guys are happy with it yes the state is going to do what they want to do I don't want to enter into that but more more importantly is this we had U we had been faced the planning board was faced to put in um zoning bylaws for um another another thing I'm afraid to bring it out but we weren't really sure how to do it so we wrote two different sets of bylaws for this particular issue and depending upon what got passed by the town was the was the zoning that we put in there do you remember that so really that's that's what you guys are tasked at is to assume that this is what's going to happen and and what would be the best fit for the town that's what I think the planning board needs that's what focus should need to have well I think we just figured it out in any one of these areas we just sign a small amount of acreage to meet the the overlay District right not the whole District that we were talking but the zoning can be basically open to allow for things to happen should somebody have the money to do that right right you know because you're talking feel more confident now right that's exactly so my next question if I'm correct there's a minimum District size is that correct yes there's a minimum District size and I'm I'm afraid I didn't come here tonight prepared to talk about the maps I was W operating under the assumption that the map decisions had largely been made and it was just going to be the town choosing from among these three sites and they haven't done a lot stud so um I would like to get back to you um to report exactly what your minimum requirements are um in ter in terms stuff that would be awesome well the back of this has oh please has the lot size what it has and blah blah blah oh right yes this is this is our analysis this isn't uh but this doesn't include the requirements what do you mean oh from the state right it does yeah it doesn't yeah I'm think what I'm thinking of now maybe you maybe you have something in there from a previous document that uh you that is Count's requirements if you have so it shows you how many what the capacities would be great and they come out well over what you what you need don't you look at that multi Cassy 384 185 and 596 yeah those I mean so District yeah we don't want to give them 5.96 because they'll make it bu that District Two gives them everything they will I worked for the federal government for like years if you like District the location of distri one better then just Zone part of it uh oh Z part of it if Z the whole thing if you're you're you're you're worried about maintaining your e in the back what there a minimum in other words this one right here does it all yeah but this one over here or whichever one this one over here doesn't mean we have to do 40 you could do 10 we only have to Zone 20 you could cut it in half 20 this one is uh what's this one 12 this one's 26 the part that's the least impact yeah yeah yeah for yeah for for example okay district one which is your outline commercial I found it very strange that you were that you would choose your um a commercial District like that uh if you wanted to give you really like district one maybe cut it in half um vertically and reone this back half that has its Frontage back here as and leave the front and leave the aage that's along Fitchburg Road still developable for your commercial why would that be commercial this is commercial look it's p it's outline commercial outline commercial that's right yeah your backyard B I thought it was AG no it's not he's not lber I'm kidding this is lenberg here right this is lunenberg and this is Pittsburg road yeah and Old City Road yep right here that is z commercial so for example if you were only to reone half of that District maybe keep the frontage along Fitchburg Road commercial and have the back be residential your multi family overlay Zone nothing that I do about there say what but that's s a bad idea I think it's you don't even know you can put condos back there or something I think that's a great idea I'm yeah look but frankly you know you're you you know these I told you I haven't made a serious study about these because I I thought I I didn't think that was something that need to be done you know so if that makes you happy because for me it really it I don't care if that makes you happy we'll do 20 acres in the back with giving at 20 acres is a lot of land more than we need options in the zoning I would I would I would recommend now let me get back to you examine examine these properties figure out best ways to cut them back and I can give you I I I I can lay out your options for you give you some recommendations would be that would be great you want to come back on the 24th or yeah I'm here okay I'm sry this is more than a two we thing I want to come back next month okay okay because I'm I'm going to I'm going to be coming out of here with several u t tasks and we are looking at December 31st for a deadline so it's the fall meeting right so we need to be done by September because we also need public hearing okay well I feel a lot better I can I can see it in your as a plan go I can recommend something I feel comfortable with great job Robert it was worth all the hearing yeah very good and a lot of people talk to get something together yeah so uh if we if we could uh if we could just go through this and I might need to get your questions all right I didn't I've added a little bit I've added some definitions I've taken out some definitions where it was duplicative where your zoning already has that definition um like building coverage and multif family housing residential Z it's already defined so that's not okay uh substantive change Workforce unit also known as uh dwelling unit a multif family dwelling unit that is subject to I took out the word multif family where are you oh I'm now on C1 I'm C6 c16 y the definition uh if if this site gets built out with two families you know we want the uh we we want the um affordable requirement to apply to that as well so in so I changeed that definition um this is probably somebody's had nothing better to do than come up of the new name it's supposed to be easier to sell to the public Workforce yes do you know that the the affordable unit is really Workforce because the majority of people that are in affordable units are police fire teachers it's Workforce basic Workforce that's why they teachers especially my police my cousin police officer I know much but you depends on how long moving down to D under permitted uses um where uh res Apartments multif family buildings and two family dwellings are allowed by right in the multif family overlay District um and single family homes are allowed by right in the underlying districts so I didn't need to allow them by right by here but I've just added that two family dwellings are allowable M what's the difference between Apartments SL multifam means that's your that's your definition that's that's your language in towns and Zoning apartment multif family multif family building or apartment multif family dwelling just be multif family yeah you don't need to say Apartments per se um multif family would be could be priv IED that was consistent huh he used language out of our what was it doesn't mean it's right yeah we might to change language can we have a four family a six family an eight family is that what multif family refers to yes yes yeah and and so then why do you need two family a two family is not a multif family there's three there's three land uses here single family two family multif family right anything over two family is multi right I've been in towns that have uh that also break it out four to eight no wait three to three to six or three and four and then four four four to eight and then over eight um I'm I'm going with three single two and M well that that coordinates with the building code really right yeah yeah yep okay okay next page under e um we talked about this uh um I've got two tables here instead of one so that we have two sets of dimensional ments um that's a table you have right yep uh but you're going to look at um what more feasible uh Square Minimum L size I yeah I want let's talk about each of these right um so the first one was your multif family this is directly from the and I say your because this all this language in black is from the version of the bylaw you've already seen um that was uh that I that was that saved to be acceptable um the only difference I'm making here the minimum density threshold there is no reason that for you to require that it be built at at least 15 units per acre you're allowed to do that do you wanna no I didn't think so all right okay okay I think that was a little I think right yes well thank you we were under the impression that we had no choice yeah yes that's right okay it's almost believe that you have no choice when you Zone you have to zone for 15 unes per acre however the developers you have to Zone to allow 15 units breaker the developers have a choice they don't have to go that high they can build half as many units if that's what they choose um so the second table um okay so uh all right one other thing I'd like to I'm supposed to make this change already I don't have a frontage I have Frontage exception but I don't but there's no actual lot Frontage on this I think I need to add frontages and on the multif family housing right I you know it's it was it would have been it's what's in the underlying Zone um so width is 80 so let's just make the frontage 80 um so our so here we have 150 ft for single fan 200 well it depends what district yes exactly we don't we have a minimum 200 200 ft of Frontage no matter what you're building and no matter what zone you're in or your the acreage changes with uh aquafer the frontage does not change all right so we're at 200 our current our current zoning bylaws are 200 feet of Frontage yeah would strongly recommend against that for this uh yeah you can't do it where where your minimum lot width is 80 feet let's have the frontage 80 feet I mean you can't have your Frontage larger than your mineral right and I don't think it makes and uh where this is the multif family table and we're going to have a separate table for um singles and twos that we don't need to have any we don't need to have it well I'm trying to think we could go a little think of where we're putting this though yeah but I'm thinking of the last big subdivision that was built in town which is Timberly park right and those [Music] were I want to say they were only 50 they couldn't have been could have been 75 to 100 feet of Road Frontage and then a half acre lot uhuh so that's 20,000 Square ft proba 100 by 200 let's say average so you would be talking and I'm just trying to think um you could get on that size lot you can do a four-bedroom septic system okay so um you could do a two family home on that if you're what are we in now we're in the apartment multif family no you're down a single family no we're still in a mul yes and we're trying to think about a frontage number that would for the molto okay okay um I'm gonna go with 100 well your minimum lot size is your minimum lot width is 80 by who's by who who's minimum lot width the the the one that's on that's uh on on on the page right now the uh the version that uh that that I inherited I minimum right so the frontage should be you know you can't set higher Frontage than minimal lot right well it depense you know Frontage means the street Frontage so you can have a l that's 80 feet deep and wider than 80 oh yeah right so it depends what you're envisioning fo FR I think 100 by 100 100 by 100 is 10,000 square feet we're setting the this minimum lot size is 8,000 square feet I think 80 by 100 to to fit the uh to to just be consistent there public water what if there's no public water septic has to be then they're going to blow then they're going to blow through all of these Dimension requirements and build much larger no but if you use the minimum that he's suggesting 80 then that gives some flexibility in the lot as to adapt for topography for conservation or for aquifier or for anything else so you're not going to have a predescribed lot profile yeah but you're not going to be able to put a septic and a well on the lot that if septic makes the uh it doesn't allow them to build at this density they have that's not your problem that's right that's fine right this not our problem is you know they have to rent portal parties I mean this is like but but what if what if they set this up what if they do bring the septic what if somebody bring up the septic from lunenberg and somebody wants to build multif family there well then you're okay yeah but and but if they don't but if they don't it doesn't hurt anything to have an 80 foot minimum lot Frontage and you're saying oh but they won't actually be able to build a are on an 8,000 SQ foot lot with 80 feet of Frontage okay right then their Lots spend up bigger than that they always have to remember there's no such thing or very few actual rectangular Lots if that's the zoning they can go higher than the zoning but they can't go less than the zone right right they right if you set an 80 they could always build a two 100 foot Frontage they couldn't build a 70 foot Frontage okay so this is minimum yeah these are minimums yes dienal standards these are minimums I don't have a problem with daating yeah it won't work minimum not if you need both both those things done on a lot it's not not going to work you have to be 100 feet away a well has to be 100 feet away from the SE no this just says it's the minimum lot with not what the lot will be okay okay right but you have I see what Lori is saying she you have the you you have a front yard setback and you have sidey yard setbacks as well yeah but the 15 is what we have now yeah the 20 is okay we have 50 but if you have a frontage accept except exception of 80 with a minimum lot width of 80 what actually are you working on for a footprint with the front yard set back the thing here that we're not thinking about we're talking about the dimensional standards for multif family complex yeah right so there's no way you're going to have multif family complex on 8,000 square feet right somebody would these dimensional requirements somebody could come in and try to put a three family on 8,000 square feet good luck no way all right and then you got the parking and everything else so yeah so keeping these well you could if you did uh three stories guess why um yeah like in wallam you ever go wallam the house is this white this that well again these are all the developers he knows the minimum and he knows what the requirements are it looks good from a developer standpoint and again if we a developer goes in there and wants to do tiny homes that's gonna help them yep yep all right yeah it's good all right and then we get down to the second table all right these are for singles and TW um probably once again um too optimistic about the uh about lot sizes and if they have to septic they're not really gonna be able you can't do a 40 foot width no you uh you could right uh you could have a single family home in uh where a narrow deep lot pan lot and a single family home with a narrow deep lot and uh the the parking coming off of an alley and parking in the backyard as opposed to the um uh driveways coming up um uh from the front yeah you know what I mean picture a block with houses that are facing to both ways and down the middle of the block uh where everybody's rear lot lines meet it's a lane and then people's driveways are off that so they're parking in their backyards instead of their front yards they don't have a garage door facing out to the front they don't have a driveway and a big curb cut taking away the on the street spaces they ugly Alleyways with all the trash cans and everything else yeah those are horrible nobody's gonna do that no worries yeah that's yeah small I mean I what I was thinking here is how in traditional neighborhoods you know um 19th century neighborhoods that have little workers Cottages singles and twos right okay I was working off of that that that that that's where I came up with these these Dimensions this has got to be like set back from the street 20 10 ft's horrible 20 feet is not that bad like they could pull your car in barely does a car that's why we have a standard 25 lot sidey yard you can if you got little um if you know you're building single family homes and two family homes on small Lots you don't want the little area the front yard with the cars parked in it it's different if a a uh Suburban or rural you know acre lot or something where somebody's driveway is you know 60 feet and it goes up to the house that's fine but in a neighborhood where you got houses next to each other on these little Lots parking in the front front of the house is a bad look it's not it's bad design you want people you want the driveways to go beside the house and people parking basically in their side yard not in their front yard and me and meanwhile 10 feet off the street for for the facade that allows somebody to put a front porch and it's yeah it's a different type of neighborhood so if they were if the houses of built close to the street mhm so you'd have to have like an access driveway behind the house for parking or or or or do you just have no yard or do you just have or or you have the driveway take up the side yard you have enough driveway in the well not if you build it not if you build it at 40 feet but if they want if they were doing that they they'd probably put W they' build the Lots wider than 40 feet I I think oh I see minimum versus realistic okay okay minimum versus reality so okay let's think for a minute I'm ask you to think for a minute about if a developer chooses this track that you like better for the building ones and twos on small Lots okay a small lot S I live in a small lot single family neighborhood actually uh my block is all single families on about 5,000 square feet really we all have off street parking IIT off street parking you all have off Street Park yeah okay yep we all have a little driveway beside the house yeah and what's the age oh it's was built in the 20s yeah yeah like Bungalows and stuff yeah I I live in the Craftsman Bungalows the front porch sheet shakes right that was I had a house like that in North Dakota and you there was the back alley and you pared in the back and it's a different you think we should have that here I think it's great well I think that that's more desirable than the multif family campuses I I want I I want want how many square feet is the house my house is just under 1800 so mine was 15 uh yeah two stories two stories and then there was a small addition on the back to add a um It's actually an office but a c actually it's pretty good because it's a very manageable lot it's just about exactly 5,000 oh Public Water Public sewer Public Water Public sewer well yeah yes yeah that's the only way you could do that yeah so if you if we're talking about that type of building that type of construction to build that type of place it can't just be a smaller version of your single family subdivisions it t there's a different design principles that have to go into it and uh so these and and I and I can tell you that these Dimensions that that are on here have been used to successfully build those streets well being just 10et off the street it's not like being 10 feet off of one of your you know miles long not not just a major highway but even your back roads even your country back roads people travel pretty fast on them and you don't expect any people to be there and things like that uh you you can't be 10 feet off that it's it wouldn't even be safe but in one of these neighborhoods it's p someone walks down the sidewalk I'm on my porch they say hi and I say hi you can have a conversation like that it becomes we have sidewalks it becomes neighborly okay it's and now that's not how you design a large lot rural character subdivision this isn't going to be a rural character under any circumstances whether it gets built single or multi and so as you're looking at the dimensional environements for the singles and twos I i' ask you not to let yourself think about your rural subdivisions your rural neighborhoods trying to design what would be a good version of single two family neighborhoods built in your MBTA district is going to be more like anyone ever go to Center Street in fitzburg beautiful gorgeous it's old traditional 1890s walkable neighborhoods and it has to and I and I'm designing these dimensional requirements around that aesthetic not a smaller did you say Center Center Street in P yes it's just off Main Street and it's old houses and they're close to the street on these little Lots concrete walls driveway on the side the garage in the back and it's a little bu know those old neighborhoods little Cottages yeah yes that's what a good neighborhood at these Dimensions is like right what do you think about the frage exception then it's Frontage I didn't know what Frontage exception what we need here is a lot Frontage um I'm inclined to go lot Frontage should be the same as lot width should be what lot Frontage should be the same as lot width okay same okay that would be the same as what we did up above right as a lot with okay it's the same argument we had before y uh next page uh a lot of these were just repeating what's in the table so I didn't bother but E1 now okay the shorter the better actually yeah now no building should be uh uh closer than 50 feet to Fitchburg road now we've already got these 50 foot 50 feet um setback from Street dimensions in the multif family housing okay the idea was you build one of these big campuses and stuff and you want to maintain a certain buffer maybe a tree buffer or something to maintain character well that's we have a Scenic roads ordinance too that we're if if your developer goes in the direction of the small lot singles and twos you know what I was just saying about being 10t from the street that's 10 feet from the street in your neighborhood that's not 10t from the main fitzburg Route 13 right exactly so I would still want to maintain that 50 okay um oh yeah not to structure size not to contain less than three dwelling units for the tap structure we don't want that anymore that's that's the whole point we want to be people to be able to build ones and twos um okay parking this parking requirement the following parking standards shall apply to Apartments multif family dwellings within the MF I'm only applying these parking standards to apartments and multif family dwellings your regular parking rules apply to ones and twos okay this makes a lot of sense because a multifam multif family dwellings tend to have smaller units tend have smaller bedrooms tend to tend to um produce fewer cars per unit and B when you have a multif family dwelling you're sharing a parking lot and so you can take advantage of economy and scale because not everybody in the apartment building is going to have the guest over on the same day so the these These are these looser parking requirements I'm applying to the multi families um oh why did you well if a husband and wife you're still going to have two cars if you made it one in a half spaces for example um that would be more of a challenge for a developer wouldn't it well I mean the higher you put your parking minimum the more of a challenge it is for a developer well more expensive I know but even if you have a one-bedroom unit you have a husband and wife both working they typically each have two cars yeah today today especially out here with there's no there's no train is the concept here that the occupants of these units are there for short term I don't think so no um I mean not shortterm no I mean I bet tendy in these I've done like singles apartment complexes and stuff and um the idea is you're there because you're there and you know you get a job somewhere else and you you know or um so how many people move how many people are looking for real long-term hous the way you would if you bought a single family home how many I mean I'm sure I'm sure it's fewer but I'm not sure what that does for us because once the those the people who are in the ad they move out faster that means somebody else moves in well okay so let's say a developer goes in there and he's got one and two bedroom units is it going to help him or handicap him not having two Pary bases you know I meaning and selling depend on particularly here in Townson right where you don't have public transportation yeah I I mean developers would probably want more and they probably put in more than the uh than the zoning costs for this sets a minimum okay it's a minimum okay they can put more okay it is a minimum all right thank you G exterior lighting year I guess here didn't work we already changed that bylaw so all right to deal with that um the so the way it says it reads here lighting shall adhere to the standards in article 9 special Provisions 14552 that that that that's still that's still fine just to leave it as is yes all right uh um dwelling units uh once again I took out multif family dwelling all developments developments uh that contain 10 or more uh 10% shall be uh Workforce units then I took out these definitions because they're um elsewhere uh you've all seen all of this before until we get to the very last page uh and it's just very minor clerical stuff so okay it's good thank you do you have any more now no you did a great job I'm really impressed I mean like you really thought about all this stuff I I I really did I really thought it wasent the other nothing impresses Robert that's funny I really did think it was important to um provide developers that second track to not just B big Bill B and B family and I drew on um my knowledge in different types of communities for what that second track needs to look like right are you a member of community planners Association I not oh I gota get you to join so the other document I sent was this memo about your site plan review um you've discussed your site plan review issue um yeah well you can't your site plan review is a special permit and that's weird we're not going to be doing a special permit here and we can't have a special permit for this right and yet you trigger your site plan review and you should trigger your site plan review um the the developments that get built up there um they're uh they're going to trigger your site plan revie and that's so that's okay but it can't be a special permit so I provide and I you know yeah and it gets to the and so I see three ways of solving this the cleanest way would be for me to rewrite your SE your 14542 into a regular site plan approval section and you will no longer have your site plan review be special permit right it will just be site plan review for first of all before we go further was it was I sufficiently clear uh explaining the difference between regular site plan review regular special permit and your site plan review is special permit are you clear on what I mean by switching it from a special permit to site plan review yeah no permit well there is still okay under site plan review you need a is still a permit the thing and no special permit and but they can't really say no they uh when there a site plan review you basically have to give them their permit but you give it to them conditions oh yeah okay we do that that's on well yeah yes special permits are issued with conditions all the time uh the difference is so it works just like that uh the only thing that's different is sometimes special permits are denied sometimes what special permits are denied and these and you can't deny this right and you can't deny this so I could rewrite I could if you'd like rewrite your um site plan review special perit into a site plan a regular site plan review okay yeah we we look at that that would apply to whole zoning yeah all the zoning it down over all of it I'm talking about rewriting the existing site plan review special permit uh I think you're gonna want to do that anyway I think it's good to have these two different levels of review have some things be special permit and some things be site plan review and the other issue is schools and churches and stuff that you're exempt from being able to Zone uh are will Tri trigger your site plan review special permit and now they're special permit so that's so I would recommend doing it that way well it's interesting because I was in a community prior to my moving here and they wanted everything a special permit they knew their zoning bylaws were were not realistic for the town and I asked them why they don't adopt zoning bylaws that are appropriate for their neighborhood and the environment and the answer was we want to know everything that's going to be built in town so there's only one problem with the one potential problem with this strategy of rewriting your whole special permit SE um site plan review to just be regular site plan review and that's whether that could be included in the simple majority MBTA communi vote so I I would like if somebody could ask all that was done now when you were changing zoning bylaws well we have that was voted at the state we have so much in our zoning ba now that requires special permit so now we're talk talking about this overlay district and with this overlay District I think we can do this without any particular issue but there's so many other ordinances in our current zoning by law that require special or special if you that recommendation for us that's something that we can look at and um if we have to Institute we still to have Institute to then we'll also I mean we'll as a minimum as aw as a minimum we have to eliminated it out of the overl district yes right yes yeah now I could I I could write a separate little site plan review um in the over in the MBTA bylaw District that uh that it has to go through which is just regular site planning right that isse we have the burden of going to every other bylaw and get that ready to be approved at town meeting and all that stuff so um so let's just focus what we need here for the overlay District all right okay so you're basically done now uh there for the just one last one last question how to do that there are to only focus on the overlay district there are two um ways that I can do that one of which would be you these last two paragraphs here one of which would be to have a little um site plan review section in the overlay bylaw itself and the other would be in your existing site plan review bylaw there are a list of exceptions I could add another exception to that but and say in that exception if for a project in the um MF uh it's traditional site so in our general bylaw we can say accepting the overlay District can be done with it right um you know I could say accepting the overlay district and be done with it the only problem with that is that would eliminate not just your um your site plan review special permit that would eliminate site plan review entirely and I think you should retain site plan review right so right so I just wanted to ask um I think it should be in La yeah it will it in the MTA Lao yeah okay in the bylaw for this district for the district yes understood so that everything is in that bylaw okay so anybody looking to develop there will have everything other stuff okay cool excellent put it in the bylaw good um and I think then what I would also want to add uh just a refence in that list of exceptions um uh reference to the uh MBTA byog yeah yeah okay but go okay good all right okay because the reference is a tweak yeah I mean it's it doesn't change that bylaw right and when it's something little like that outside the bylaw but is something small like that that system reference to it it still falls under the 51% vote the 50% plus one vote it does yes great yesj things that AFF effectuate the mvta bylaw in other parts of the um bylaw can also fall under that so all right my marching orders as I understand them I am going to examine your map and come up with recommendations on um on districts and apage and uh let you know what the minimums are and uh what and recommendations for what to do with each district all right so in in that direction we're going for the smallest amount we need or he was gonna even say with the big p will just take figure out what that smallest M un need is yes right so I'm okay pretty much with what we've come up with now for the general areas of the where this could happen further ref I don't want to go back there because other acreage not going to look at any other districts I'm just going to um figure out what exactly what your minimum was and recommend how to subdivide your districts right if if excellent that' be great okay and I gotten your information I got your feedback on those dimensional dates great so good okay uh 7:15 on July 8th 7:15 on July does that work for you yes on the next week it's a Monday wait wait wait let me look at my calendar here no that's the week I'm gone I have to tell you my marching orders are less than I thought they were going to be I I can come back from that within two weeks when when did you say your next meeting is um July 8th right no the next is the 24th 24th 24th of June 24th of June June they have the 18th but that's that's a joint with the board of Selectmen so the 24th and I um 24th yeah we have somebody's 24th 7:15 on the 24th that sounds fine so the 24th and July 8th right no I think no he can't come on July come ju but he'll okay he'll get us stuff before the 24th that we can discuss on shouldn't be too challenging right I don't think it should be actually I think this is be a relatively small amount of work and on the 24th I um I think we might we probably be able to make quick work of this okay just I I've got something you like and then I want to talk more about I also want to talk about the AVU bylaw oh thank you that supped to be amending for you okay got some feedback um yeah what would would are what would you like how what would you like me to do there come to you with proposals come to you with I would I would like to see people a memo like who own a single family home and want to have an accessory partner be able to do that by right if they can get whatever permits they need and we don't have that in our zoning now okay but FID were does a lot of other communities do y oh anybody with common sense does I know yep um so okay yeah I yes yes and what and but be prepared what I come with next time depending on how things go legislatively might be a description of what your ad or is got to be based on state law and what of course I've encountered one situation with this uh sory dwelling unit it's a section of pitchburg that are single family homes and they have it by right yeah so I had a client that was building a brand new house so the bylaw was written assuming you are adding on to an existing house so oh yeah you okay just is talking can we no can we finish the agenda and then I can adjourn and let heartley go home and then if you guys want to talk you can it's okay because I think you told us a story already the basement but he's gonna be looking at that bylaw um it's look at what we don't worry about okay well we can discuss it once you have that okay whatever you come up with we'll talk about it um we have a couple of things we're not going to do tonight and that is 3.2 and 4.2 because I don't have them um and then 5.1 is the announcement of the citizen planner training collaborative on the 6th 18th and 20th not something that I can do but it's there um and then our next training you can sign up for training for what thank you very much thank you that was very helpful I'm clading anym if if I don't have anything to do I think I might sign up for that zoning on the 18th or something okay um but I have to look and see if I'm if I can do it at the time that they okay and don't forget we meet on the 18th too yeah um so I will entertain a motion to adjourn I'll make a motion to adjourn at 94 9.m 9:14 p.m. on what is today's day the 10 Jun everybody remember to vote tomorrow yes June 10th we have all agreed to a journ