all right welcome to the city of Treasure Island local planning agency meeting for April 18th 2024 if you wish to speak on a topic which is on today's agenda a speaker card is available at the TA table at the rear of the room and must be completed and given to the chair person please do not address the board from your seat but rather from the podium where your comments can be heard by all and recorded as required by Florida statute unscheduled topics may be presented under the public comments section of the agenda if we could all stand for the Pledge of Allegiance flag States states America stand if everybody would please silence their cell phones and Stephanie could we have a roll call Richard Harris here Ross Sanchez here Diana krao here Marvin shavin here Gary penano here absentees are Linda Driscoll Lynn fiser Michael heres and Chris Downing no we do have enough for a quum today okay no uh minutes to approve uh let me ask uh Marvin something is your uh name tag Miss build no no yes it is yes it is that's what was screwing me up okay because I'm sitting there going to get rid of that V well yeah no you just transpose the L on the V who's in charge of that we'll take care of [Laughter] it no I'm sitting here trying to get a piece of tape and use a marker we're fine we don't need I'm like and I just heard Stephanie pronounce your last name and I'm like that's not how it's spelled okay we'll get into the presentation of items 6A workshop on terrain modification including a discussion of ldr chapters 5475 76 and cumulative uh substantial improvements in relation to terrain modification if you would go ahead with your presentation uh Justin Keller with Advanced engineering uh again appreciate youall having me um so this is uh you know I guess another uh um series of conversations regarding the train modification manual uh today we're going to focus on some of the um more minor code changes that are going to accompany the manual and then also um hit on storm water and revisit some of the discussion of uh substantial improvements uh specifically uh chemo substantial improvements um next slide so we've we've talked a lot about uh the various code revisions we talked a lot about the manual elements um um I I I think it'd be a good time to kind of you know take a step back um and kind of re reframe or let's say re revisit the purpose of what we're trying to accomplish here um so essentially the terrain modification concept was um discussed or presented within the watershed management plan and the watershed management plan really kind of asked the pretty basic but loaded question is that how do we continue to collect storm water in the face of Rising seas and So within the watershed management plan we we presented a couple um let say high high level thoughts on on what our options really are um one of those is managed Retreat or let's say Strate you know let's say the the Strategic buyout of properties um that are either repetitive loss now or will be repetitive loss um moving forward in the future um that's that's something that we more or less assumed that uh the residents would not be on board with um we've actually got some survey data as um or some some uh some questionnaire survey results um in which one of the topics covered manag Retreat and it certainly appeared um it certainly appeared that um that that assumption was was at least correct that uh the residents certainly do want to stay and not look at a strategic relocation off of the island um because again when you talk about manage Retreat or you talk about you know buying out properties often times you're doing that under the context that you have some place to put them to where if you're an inland community and you have lowland areas you have Upland areas you can strategically reload uh relocate vulnerable areas up gradient you know to higher elevation um unfortunately unless we're going to move everybody on top of the water tower you know the water tanks there um we really don't have that option so we Tred to purs two recommendations that we felt are going to keep the community you know in it in its home and then also present scenarios that allow for us to kind of maintain the quality of life that we think the residents and you know citizens here have become accustomed to um so looking at more of the uh Technical Solutions to collecting storm water in a face in a environment where seas are rising we really had train modification which essentially modifying the elevations of the island both the roadway Network and also the uh you know private properties and then we also looked at um utilizing storm water pumps and um when we talk about utilizing storm water pumps that is more or less using pumps in the current no fill environment and that's something really critical because I want to make sure that we don't say we're never going to use storm water pumps moving down the road because I think we got to keep all the tools in the toolbox that we can you know that that we could possibly use but again the big thing here is that do we feel that we can move forward in protecting the community against kind of the threats that are already kind of at our doorstep based upon some of the photos we saw last week um and then also some of those threats coming down the line and we do feel that continuing um with no fill policies and also let's say utilizing um storm water pumping stations and essentially saying okay we're not going to change our terrain we're just going to isolate and we're going to keep on building up our barriers as much as we need in order to make sure that we we we essentially keep the ground you know the the water out um we felt that for a lot of different reasons that was really not um not not a recommendation that we wanted to present um to the commission at that time so really that that is where um you know the train modification ended up being the recommendation and that was something that was in the watershed management plan and uh the Water Management plan was you know this these Concepts were presented to the commission and and adopted um but again I I I think I've shared that backstory um with the group but I did want to just kind of revisit that because you know we've been talking about the nuts and bolts of seaw walls of you know of of base floor elevations and all that um so I just figured this would be a good opportunity to kind of re reframe some of that discussion um when we talk about the actual need you know to kind of do what we're doing um I I mentioned earlier that um as part of of um you know some Outreach efforts that that were done by the city uh we had some survey questions that more or less asked the residents and and more or less said do you think that sea level rise is a problem that we need to address and I think really between the agree and strongly agree we were at 75% um and then also we we pretty much asked the question do you feel that we need to reconsider how how we build in this envir en and I think we're at about 77 78% there as far as agree and strongly agree so um you know we we do feel that from a big picture standpoint um that the terrain modification um is is a good solution for the city moving forward um we we feel that in in the short term and the long term it certainly provides um you know it allows you to essentially remove the noof fill restrictions and it and and it opens up that toolbox because there is a fight that we're going to have to fight which is these um you know kind of future um minor storm events that are going to have more repercussions like we saw last week and then also just a continual um elevation of of the high tide as we as we see it today um so I did want to you know take that opportunity kind of just um take a step back I know sometimes I can get kind of bogged down into the details um and I thought it'd be important to just kind of share some some high level thoughts about you know kind of how how we came across um how we pretty much got got here today in regards to the survey results you said 70 to 75% how many how many replies are talking 10 are we talking 100 we talk I want to say a couple hundred but I can get you that number like I mean it it was yeah I I I couldn't sit up here and tell you you know 78% if it was like six but yeah no but it was it was um it was about 250 okay M unfortunately for our surveys here in our city that is a good response rate yeah I would think so I it was just interesting that when it came to how we build a lot of people in this town don't like build so that's why I was curious about and strongly agree so thank you for yeah no yeah so yeah no but but but C certainly something to where I don't want to sit up here and say I'm a polling expert or anything but just you know just kind of high high high level we felt it was um you know a it was reasonable to say that that was kind of indicative of of of community sentiment 250 is shocking to me so thank you yeah MH so this plan we're not going to see the result for like 50 70 years or I mean you can't everybody's got to be raised before we start moving roads right well you know the the the what what we think some of the benefits of this plan are is that um it it it it has a long-term Outreach you know or or let's say a long-term Vision but private property can pretty much much start protecting themselves today if they want to um and then also from a roadway standpoint um one of the reasons we felt that this was a a a tangible solution to present is that we are not going to say that okay we're not going to touch any single roadway until you know we can get our desired goal I mean I still think as we move forward there's there's going to be an opportunity to kind of do sequential roadway reconstruction um to where you know you may have to in the next 100 years you may have to hit a road twice you know you may have to get 18 inches on the first reconstruction Project based upon you know the surrounding terrain and then you may you know down the road you may have to get another you know 12 to 18 as well um so we do feel that um you know that that's not something to where when you build and rebuild over that long timeline that's kind of just conventional Rehabilitation or reconstruction that would be needed regardless um to where you know your really only added cost is the fill and um when you look at the fill pretty much once it's put down I mean it's it's there you know um to where you are able to kind of you know see the Returns on your investment when you come back and you know 30 to 40 years um you know to do a subsequential roadway Rehabilitation um but but yeah I mean you know one of the CH you know I think I think one of the challenges in any kind of resiliency or sea level rise project is I'm I'm not going to see it through yeah yeah yeah and and and and it's hard you know especially when you look at specific demographics of a community um it's it's very hard to sell a vision and say you know we need to do this now because think about what's like in 80 years I mean I have a hard time thinking about eight years you know versus versus 80 years um and obviously that changes with age and life experience and all that kind of stuff so so that's that's the hard part I think not about this program but I think the whole state of Florida is going to see that challenge is that it is hard to con to to pretty much um provide a recommendation for a program that people are going to say well it's going to impact me today but the true benefit I don't see until you know you know down the road for a certain amount of time I mean that's tough now the one good thing about this program I do feel is that the private property you see that today you know you'll see that today um you know if if you build to the base FL 76 versus what you can do Under the current no-fill environment you realize that benefit today so um you know we do feel that that is one one you know it's it's not something to where it's a complete um lack of opportunities to realize some of those benefits so but yeah no it's it's long term it's long term and and to be honest you know um in in the manual itself we have some program recommendations um because we can't just sit here and say all right you know let's say we get to the point where we want to approve it we can't just approve it and say all right set it forget it and we'll see in 50 years no I mean I mean we have to be constantly nurturing the program you know I mean we have to make sure okay did did new data come out um are we shooting too high are we shooting too low you know I mean this is this is going to be something to where the program really is intended to provide a framework variables are going to change things are going to change but as long as we kind of stick to the and and that's why I credit or you know we focus on those core tenants nfip flood plane conservation um um Community function and then Overland flow um you know maintaining Overland flow uh transfer points I mean I mean if we stick to those four Concepts we can deal with all the variables you know as long as we stick to those four which which the program does I you know we're we're Nimble enough to change but yet we're we're kind of rooted in Core Concepts and core goals that are going to allow us to kind of see this thing through are any other cities doing this so so there now with when we talk about what other cities are doing so the State of Florida has a resilient Florida program um that is was was really um I think probably kicked off under the dantist administration um and and there is a lot of money being funneled to local governments uh when I say a lot of million dollars I think they commit $100 million a year minimum for the statutory requirements which sounds like a lot but for the State of Florida and the problems we face you know um certainly more be better probably on record saying that not good for me but um anyway so um we um so this this is a what we're doing here is to my knowledge is not being done elsewhere so uh Miami Beach did have a program um similar to this um their their approach was a little bit different to where they were focused on um realizing some of the benefits of roadway elevation um at a specific and in in one specific project and I certainly don't want to speak for for for the program because I do not know it um as detailed as I do for ours but I but I do know that um based upon some of the core rent you know some some of the Core Concepts um it just appears that they they didn't um prioritize maintaining flow from properties to the roads and that's something that we just felt internally um that maintaining that drainage relationship from the properties to the roads is really the only thing that's to make this last multiple Cycles you know because again I mean we talk about the long period I mean how many you know how how many lpas are going to come and go how many commissions how how how many mayor you know there there's there's going to be a lot of change and so we recognize that when we talk about the program being adaptable we can't come here with a you know sledgehammer and say everyone's got to do this we're going to raise the roads come hell or high water to here because we know I'll probably work for one project until the next cycle comes in and say well this is the stupidest thing ever we're going to can it so we're we're trying to prepare a program that again rooted in some Core Concepts but yet it recognizes that you know we we got to get moving for 10 to 15 years for this thing to really build momentum um and and that's going to be the hard part you know this is the city's plan of action this is the way I cliffnote version City's plan of action that takes a durational approach to lessen the impact of storm surge or even beat it that's the way that I look at it yeah and and I would I would I'll probably steal some of your verbiage to be honest I like that um but I would probably flip out storm surge with sea level rise but just because really when we talk about storm surge I guess technically what we saw last week was a surge from a storm it's not you know it it was so um so it certainly will help for smaller storm events but you know we certainly don't want to um try to sell this at like hurricane you know like like a hurricane be gone or something like that it's and I do think that there I know that you were talking a little bit about generational I truly think present day there's actually more gener generational families in then you would than you would think yeah I think that there's more continuance of younger people coming in and growing families and wanting to stay and whatnot yeah no and and and versus 20 years ago yeah no and and also too I certainly don't want to uh you know I I hope I am um being aware that you know let's say a a a long-term vision is not just for a certain age group you know it's like you know as you get older have grandkids well you know you may have more of a long-term vision and all that than a younger generation so really it's it's it's everybody and um it's it's Unique what the city's doing um I think I think there's an opportunity that we see to where if we're able to identify a goal now and start towards that goal now by the time 2050 2060 comes around and maybe other communities are having some o crap moments we're ahead of them we're we're ahead of them so when I sit on this board to make sure the next 50 years are this place is in a good spot yes I have a question um because most of the neighborhoods cannot move much off of the island without getting onto Golf Boulevard do we know if the state has any plan for doing anything on elevating 699 during the years well so you know with with I mean that's a that's a great question because right now there's nothing that we have in place that says Golf Boulevard will be elevated by X State now we do know this we do know the State of Florida is is investing in sea level rise strategies so we know that they're they're there's a program for it they're putting out money for these type of projects we also know that the do within their own you know handbooks recognize sea level rise and recognize that that is a threat that needs to be accounted for forward during the design process we know that so and we also know that those things make a lot of money for a lot of people you know the beaches and so I think it's very I I don't think it's a crazy assumption even though we can't say that the road's going to be raised by 2050 2060 something like that I do think it's reasonable to say that that project if it were to be done could be accomplished through an injection of money you know and really Gulf Boulevard actually AB buts in a lot of places AB buts some of the higher properties on the city um so and and too again when we talk about pump stations so when when when we recommended against pump stations it was in an environment to where we say we only have pump stations and we still have no fill you know that that that's an environment that we we don't think is beneficial for the city um but strategic pump stations I think that's something we have to consider um on case-by case basis based upon a certain use so even if we have a section of Golf Boulevard that say may not be able to be elevated or protected at whatever way the state deems necessary because really you know we can we can Elevate all we want if the state doesn't want to do anything on Golf Boulevard we really can't force them um but again they there would at least be strategies that could be used to where if we are talking about one roadway in in a defined location um versus what we're looking at now which is a whole city City you know that's surrounded by water um there there there's a lot more opportunities to kind of have have that kill shot and tackle the problem thank you I just wanted to see if we have I I I know 699 is not a TI venue for investment but it is something that we've got to be very concerned about because if we build up and we can't get out paradise is about the only one that can exit the island without touching Golf Boulevard somehow yeah well so and that's why I wanted to just to see if we have had any general feeling on how they're going to be and and really too I mean you know you can kind of continue that logic in every direction right our neighboring communities doing that to where a lot of people may use a neighboring Comm north south to the east um you know I think as we we we I I can't sit up here and say that I have the answer for that um but I know for for kind of what we're tasked with and what our goals are is that we want to kind of control the controllables that we have that that we can control that's too many right there control controllables uh so uh you know we we can we can dictate how we build we can dictate what our long-term vision is and and I you know from from our standpoint especially with the recognition that at the state and federal level sea level rise is not a is not a boogeyman it's something that people re it's real people recognize it and there's there's a concered effort to to address these issues um I I think we can say that there is some confidence that you know if we have a situation to where Golf Boulevard is a remaining entity that sometime over the next de you know over the coming decades a solution will be presented then I have a follow on to Diana's question you know I agree with Gul Boulevard that's State Road I don't think the state's going to touch it for a lot of years but let's talk about the main entrance uh into the city 10 7th Avenue or uh Treasure Island Causeway uh the mayor made a statement last commission meeting that it would be raised in the next three years I was kind of surprised by that because I don't think there's any plans for it is that been considered at all at least I heard that he said that I didn't see it what what we had said when um actually we were talking about two different options for the west side of the causeway um one being the elevation and the other being a lesser project that that would not be elevation I think we all recognize that the expense associated with an elevation project would be Grant dependent and so that is something that we really don't have a control on the timeline of um so I would be very Leary to say that any changes would be made on that side of the causeway within three years um I would be hopeful that we could have a design in place and a grant in place in three years well that was interesting because I did have a lot of people that call me up and said you know Tyler Payne actually made the statement that it would be raised in three years not like and I'm like well if he really said that that three years for a project of that magnitude is just is there any plan at all I mean is there any date uh that we would like to see I mean the main draw bridge of course is fine it's nice and high the uh interconnecting roads between the bridges would be the problem is there any plan or date certain for that or is there any perspective date for something like that that's something that we have to talk about in budget this year so we're developing those project Alternatives and talking about the differences in level of service um associated with those different projects the cost and the grant opportunities for them so that will be a very large budget decision this year oh it absolutely is I happen to be driving I4 this year or last month rather and they are raising I4 uh just uh e of Lakeland just west of Orlando I think it's $75 million project and it's for the Florida panther which is great it's just unbelievably expensive to to raise roadways just wanted to point that out you know Richard the information came out commission meeting which could be a 3 69 12 year situation raising the the road so then some Alternatives is well if we do something we do have a a issue with water and we got to do something with mov moveing the water on the Paradise Lane and treasure Lane area so and that's what Stacy's alluding to there's some option we could peel away to try to lessen the burden in other areas so that's what they're ex examining but there was no commitment it's just a date that somebody threw at me and I'm like it always happens it's amazing and know the if we're talking about Gul Boulevard let's talk about the main roadway into the city too so uh it'll happen someday go ahead just yeah you know I I think your point um even within the wmp when when we looked at your your roadway infrastructure I mean there's there's some some obvious truths right where um certain roads are more important than others and So within the wmp we did identify uh some projects that did Focus or that that did recognize let's say kind of a that that there is a hierarchy of Roads within the city especially when you talk about we have like you know finger Island communities to where well everybody is dumped off to a central colle you know to to it wouldn't be a collector in in the in the um scheme of like Transportation Planning but to the people in that neighborhood it's a collector roadway and so you know we we did recognize that um you know when we look at projects um certainly understanding the importance of a of a transportation asset is is something that needs to be considered so all right yeah so that's um so so again I I I um wanted to kind of give that background if you want to go to the next slide so this is um these are the elev these are some photos taken about 11 o' last or 11 to 12:00 last week um and uh if you go to the next slide that shows the gauge um so th this is um a a gauge over in St Pete um again not not exactly identical um but it is uh intended to provide a general you know kind of a reference point as far as where it got and that was elevation about 2.97 um we are looking at um you know when you look at a you know let's say a sea level rise in a high tide um on top of that we're looking at about 4.1 in the year 2100 um which essentially would be you know 1.1 feet over what we saw there um and again it's not you know not to try to you know spook people or anything like that but just to try to you know share share some of the concerns we have to where oh my gosh how how do we how do we function you know trash pickup in a community when the water's like that and that's where we talk about maintaining quality of life is that there are very serious concerns about just being able to live on the island in a normal environment if you will um if things like this is what we're facing on can you go back two slides yeah um I recognize some of that but for the benefit of the board and the audience can you identify where some of these pictures are I recognized the uh the boat ramp there many times where are some of these uh slides right off have a whole file that identifies these pictures and more throughout time and I'd be happy to send those to the board through Katherine I just don't have my computer up and running right now to to pull out loc kind of interesting you could do recognize some of these areas but it would be interesting I think to the board to see where the major problem areas are we all at least Us Sunset Beach residents know about the corn East Bay in 85th and uh although I don't see it up there no well you're you're um 84th I think the far top right I think that's 84th and um 8 84th and Bay sure there right near the boat ramp just looking in in the Northerly Direction yeah you you can tell the boat ramp but anyway that'd be great if you yeah we're pretty familiar because the calls come in very quickly and so we're used to the streets where the calls come in um you know it's pretty consistent yeah we uh we're also hoping to get on 115th because that's an area too um and unfortunately I think I I uh I predicted the timing wrong to Stacy so that's that's on me so um I thought it'd be around 3 o00 and it receded before that so um you know because again I I do think having these visuals um again not not as a scare tack tactic but just this is just what it is you know this is what it is and this is what we're trying to protect against in a very long Outlook methodical manner so um you know I'm I'm I'm hoping when it's all said and done everything gets approved just because you're sick of seeing this slide um again the trade modification program is the uh you know it it's combination of two items the code revisions and the training modification manual um we are here to talk about the specific code revisions um next slide oh sorry so so to date we've we've um discussed uh 69 which is Marine structures we actually um uh recently had a public meeting with seaall contractors and residents to to explain that um or to you know kind of have an open discussion about some of those changes and I um at least from my vantage point I think I think it was relatively positive um we talked about um 66 flood plane management once and we're going to be revisiting that today specifically about the cumulative substantial improvements um and also we'll be hitting on chapter 54 utilities uh chapter 75 utilities and chapter 76 uh which is storm water if you do not recognize chapter 76 good because that is a new section so for all you code Buffs out there um so as far as the chapter 54 utilities revision so this is the utility section that is actually outside of the ldrs um and this is where a lot of the rate and billing data is currently now and it comes to um you know um utility fees um we are going to be keeping that in in in its current location but also Within chapter 54 are some of the items as it pertains to your um to storm water management or or the npds program uh a quick aside the npds program is essentially a EPA permit that has passed through through the D that essentially allows you to operate a storm water system and as part of that permit um there are certain things that the city has to do each year a certain number of inspections a certain number of cleanings um a certain number of um you know let's say uh certain types of Outreach to the residents to or or to the public to share information on the impacts of elicit discharges and impacts of fertilizer use and all that so that is something there and and also what's really heavy in chapter 5 for now is illicit discharges as as in how does the code handle if somebody has you know if a pool contractor has unused chlorine and they're just dumping down the drain chapter 54 talks about how how that's handled we felt that this is an opportunity to put that that information that really is storm water specific into a all-inclusive storm water section just just to kind of streamline things um for um for chapter 75 75 I tell you I like the PDF there's none stupid animations uh the um so for chapter 75 um this is in the ldrs and um a lot U some of the stuff in chapter 54 about the edus program is duplicated there so we're going to take the opportunity to kind of just point everybody to a single section and and strike that from the codes um not not the concepts Ju Just just the duplication um there are also some um storm water and admin ministrative proceedings that are outlined there that we're going to be separating um and also there's a uh some some discussion weaved in there weaved in there about Waterfront lots and there's four Clauses in there about Waterfront Lots two of them are are going to go to chapter 69 for seaw walls because it talks about grading behind a seaw wall and um two of them pertain to Hedges and fencing which we'll be tackling in 68 and we're we're working on that as we speak so um this is some information that um that's going to kind of kick off our storm water discussion and when when we talk about the storm water changes that are proposed um yes it's true these are being proposed by Treasure Island but these changes are have are are pretty much in line with what the county of penel county has been doing recently and more importantly these changes are coming at a state level so recently um or or let me say this past session um the um State Statewide storm water rule was ratified and um that essentially changes how we look at storm water treatment and um the change is really we go from uh a presumption of treatment or presumptive criteria to Performance base and really the best example of that is um historically um how we've handled it if we said okay you have a certain amount of rain that falls on the site okay you have to collect x amount of rainfall in your pond if you collect x amount of rainfall in your pond we are presuming that you've met water quality requirements and that's where kind of the term presumptive criteria comes in because essentially all the codes now say if you do X you will get y now so the county back in 2017 changed to a performance-based which pretty much says we don't care what you do just get why you know and essentially that that that makes a a designer um instead of using let's say um boiler plate design criteria they have to look at the spe uh specific land use um specific site characteristics and they have to provide a certain percent reduction of nutrients total nitrogen and total phosphorus because those are really um well certainly there are other pollutants out there that are bad for the water um those are you know some of the pollutants of concern especially when you talk about algae blooms and all that kind of stuff you know nitrogen often times is a fuel for that so um the state is ratifying a rule which which I mean this is a pretty big deal that they're going from this um this way that we've always done it and I say we because this is how I've always done it too which is you capture a certain amount of water put in your pond you've met treatment requirements so now you got to prove it now you got to prove with calculations and you have to say yes we are removing x amount of nitrogen x amount of phosphorus from from the from the water prior to discharge and so really what what we are doing is that these Concepts that are you know so it was it was ratified or or let's say it it was approved by the by the house of the state house and state senate I still believe it has to be signed um by the governor but but this you know from from what we're hearing on the state level is that this is coming um so back in 2022 and early 23 they started the workshops on what they're calling the Statewide storm water rule um the rule was adopted in 23 and then ratified this last session and um we anticipate that the effective date is going to be sometime this summer that's based upon some of our correspondents with d Personnel um there are some exemptions that are U woven into to the actual uh ratified language but but even those are going to Sunset uh within the coming years or so um so we talked about performance versus presumptive um that is essentially presumption is you do X to get Y and performance bases we don't care what you you you got to just do it and essentially what what the Statewide stormwater rule does is it um it kind of teers treatment options to where it specifically identifies a type of project that's like a Redevelopment it also talks about your treatment criteria if you are in an impaired water body when we talk about impaired it's one that's not meeting state water quality standards and then it also talks about how you um how you treat storm water uh when you're within the subwater shed of outstanding Florida water and outstanding Florida water is like a state designation of this water body is important to us like you know the penel County Aquatic preserve that's around us or Rainbow Rivers you know stuff like that some of these more signature waterways throughout the state um and again this the state storm water rule um is going to be similar to what a lot of people who do storm water design in pelis County not with you know within unincorporated penel County have to do currently which is you're using a performance-based criteria so really what we're doing is we're kind of going along for the ride is that the state's doing it though you know we we it's not final yet because the Govern haven't signed it but the state it it appears they're they're on that track the County's been doing it and you know we feel it's important to kind of follow these industry Trends to make sure we're we're um you know let's say protecting our water bodies to the best degree we can that's fine so when we so what what we essentially want to do is that we we wanted to take some of those Core Concepts that the state's looking at and kind of carry them forward and these Core Concepts are performance versus presumptive we want to pretty much say you have to remove x amount of nutrients for a site to be developed um we also um we also are Rec recognizing Redevelopment thresholds so essentially what the state rule does is that it says if you are classified as a Redevelopment that you you're able to be kind of teared down as far as the percentage of nutrients that we have to remove so we are carrying that Statewide um Statewide not exemption but the Statewide Clause forward um the state also talks about how your criteria changes if you discharge to an impaired uh if you discharge to an impaired water B body well everything we do here discharges to impaired water body which is the uh which is bogy Sega Bay and also the state also kind of has a section that talks about what if you're an outstanding Florida water and what if you're outstanding Florida water that's impaired and guess what everything we do discharges to an impaired outstanding florid to water so really we're able to kind of streamline some of this criteria and say well everything else doesn't apply Because unless somebody's building a pipe across the county and you know some other place they're discharging into the water right here um so we're so we we we are using that that percentage and um you know kind of using that as our Baseline moving forward so there are five different topics I want to hit on when it comes to the storm water rules or or the the storm water proposed code revisions um it is um and we'll we'll start with applicability and uh exemptions generally speaking um this is applicable to like a single family development project not single family but you know if you're building 10 you know building a 10 home subdivision or something like that um multif family and Commercial projects and I say keyword generally because again codes are never you know there are intricacies the code so I certainly don't want to say anything that says all these situations are under this guideline but generally speaking that is who it's going to be applicable for if if you are building a single family home um you are not going to be required to meet the nutrient removal criteria um that we're required now you certainly can we'd love for you to um but you're not required to ask you a quick question just for clarification of course Treasure Island is pretty much a buil two or three makeup pieces prop but what's happening in Treasure is a lot is people coming in on houses tearing them down and just for the clarification of the public if you buy an existing house tear it down then you are not required to meet these water quality standards yes if you bu an existing house and you rebuild it you're not required to meet the the numeric percent reduction for for your storm water yeah because we you are going to have I know a lot of people are coming looking at the city of Treasure Island saying hey you know these houses are all built in the 70s or 60s or if it's Sunset Beach even earlier and yeah I'm just going to tear buy an existing house tear it down build a stealth house back and you get a lot of misinformation out there saying that a single family house will have to meet these criteria and of course that doesn't include the situation where you go in and accumulate enough land to build say t houses yeah then you would yeah no and if if if somebody you know um just trying to thinking if uh you know on um a of Palms when you drive in in the park you know you have like that center part of Palms yeah somebody bought all those homes and said I'm going to put you know row Town Homes out through all that area yeah that's although that that would be you know rebuilding the homes some something of that magnitude would be governed by the code but yeah your your conventional tear down rebuild is not you know there are aspects of the code that apply when it comes to storm water management but but the nutrient removal requirement is not going to be a part of what is going to be required I just want to make sure that the person watching at home or is interested uh I mean for instance we have a project that's out there in the Zone on on Sunset Beach where a gu's going to come in and buy several pieces you know individual pieces of property and build back 10 units and uh he would be required to do uh to meet these standards so if we're going to talk from the theoretical to the actual I I think we need to make sure that before I sit up here and say yep that person who you're talking about needs to do that I would need to get more information on that um but but you know for this conversation from a general sense um if we are looking at a larger development project that is certainly something that kind of looks and smells like it'd be covered by the code but again i' I'd be leery of you know kind of just nod my head and saying yeah when um it's it's possible it would without knowing all the information Case Case by case b uh scenario the main fear that I always hear is oh I by house tear it down and now I got to have a detention P well that that that I can say is not the case so yeah that's just all I wanted to clarify yeah no and I I because that's an important point so I I appreciate that um we are proposing so when we talk about the um you know the uh uh substantial improved structures um they would need to meet the storm water and a train modification manual but again the ASC is there for a reason the there are exemptions that still apply so if you're a single family you are not required to meet the uh storm water removal criteria um if you know if you're single family and you tear down and rebuild so uh kind of just restating what I just said um we are proposing 14 specific exemptions that are outlined in the code that kind of are some uh some scenarios that we want to present to say if you you know let's say um you know perform external uh improvements to your building like facade or painting all that kind of stuff like that is not something that would be that would trigger the need to um update your storm water system be compliant with the new code what happens if you bought a lot that's been sitting vac five years tear down yeah so well yeah you know this is kind of delving into that specific um but I that you know kind of the purpose of what we're trying to accomplish here is that we want to make sure that there is a reduction of nutrient loading when you look at your post-development scenario in a very high level General sense so in that in in in a scenario to where there's a vacant land I would say that your existing condition would be vacant and therefore there would be less loading coming off that existing land and therefore you would need to make sure that you meet the requirements of of the code I you know again it's it's um you know I I I certainly want to give everybody enough information to where everybody's aware of some of the concepts but um there are sometimes I kind of have to tread lightly uh to make sure that I don't say something that um there's a condition that could you know uh let's say contradict the general statement or general point I'm trying to get across so I apologize if I'm not able to be as um let's say as a definitive in my response as probably one would like um and um and then also to the um the code does recognize some critical documents uh such as the penel county storm water manual and the train modification manual as well we also are going to be hitting on some application requirements um you know one of the things that we feel is important is to be clear is to be clear about what we expect not only um you know to support staff so they have an understanding of what they should be looking for but also to be clear with the community to say well if you need a permit for us we want to make sure we're upfront we show you everything that we're looking for um so we took this opportunity to to clarify some of the things that we are looking for for storm water permits um you know a lot of the plan requirements aren't going to change it's more or less just expanding upon the specifics of what we're looking for um and also there's a focus on making sure that we um you know keep the erosion and sement control requirements in place um and naturally since we are revising from or you know we're we're following what the industry is doing which is going from uh performance-based from presumptive to performance-based treatment we we recognize that there's a need to provide the calculations to to support that so as far as the design requirements um I know we got one engineer who may want to nerd out with me but um I'll I'll try to keep it as high level as possible um we are going to we are going to expect that sea level rise impacts are accounted for um you know be a little bit silly if we're talking about modifying terrain for sea level rise and we don't kind of follow through with the concept and making sure that the storm water system accounts for it as well and and the manual hits on that um in uh for the D2 classification for commercial multif family um also we want to support uh piped outfalls um you know a lot of times you'll see in certain places if if there's a if there's an inlet that's not directly near a property a lot of you know some some entities may allow for that um facility to discharge via Overland flow just kind of Imagine like a bathtub overflowing it just kind of goes where it wants to go um unless you have a unique situation and to where I think in the code we actually identify a specific footage that a structure a storm water structure to connect to would be located a certain distance away um if you have something within that area we are going to be requiring that you perform a pipe connection to the structure um we also are reinforcing the need to maintain base and integrity um again I say reinforcing because the current code does that now that's kind of storm water 101 but again it's important to make sure that we we share that we are carrying that forward and then also we are providing the framework um for uh Regional treatment facilities and by that if there was somebody who wanted to um you know provide storm water quality improvements for a certain area and construct off-site Pond to say I want to provide water quality for all these areas and theoretically increase my density and again that's a zoning issue but from a storm water standpoint we we would support that and the code would support the use of that so from a design requirement standpoint um spefic about water quality um we are going to require essentially that more more things be evaluated for treatment um so the the the term low impact development LI or green infrastructure is is something that will you know likely be um more common in kind of day-to-day conversation I guess uh from a from a permit end uh maybe not a personal end um and and essentially what that is is um when we talk about ways to accomplish um these nutrient removals that we're hoping for the reason why we're going that you know the industry is going to Performance base versus just saying you know capture a certain amount of water and you should be fine is because I think they're finding that you're not fine and that when you follow some of these presumptive criteria um you may not always hit the removal goals that the initial legislation wanted you to and so now we're looking at alternate ways to where you know obviously ponds or you know retaining water and allowed it to infiltrate will certainly be a core concept moving forward but there's also going to be different strategies that are going to need to be used like reducing the amount of impervious area um disconnecting your impervious area to where essentially having it to where you can have um you you have runoff that will run over a vegetated or grassed area before it gets collected um and there are certain sight layout principles that you can use to also make sure that um also make sure that you are reducing nutrients um in in your PO in your discharge flows um and then also too there's also things like um you know decentralizing your bmps or your treatment systems um you know that we the industry is starting to recognize that pretty much having a pond at the bottom of the hill is not the most effective way to get treatment and that you're really better off collecting it in smaller little areas and treating it in in little side streams that tends to be more effective than just pretty much dumping everything in a single treatment facility um if you go the next slide too so I have some kind of pictures of what we're talking about um so this is uh this is a Nutri separating baffle box this is what we will classify as a structural BMP essentially something that you put on the end of a pipe or before an outfall provides a degree of treatment so the next slide is actually uh actually in Sunset Beach is what well Sunset Beach seems to be the star of the show today um this is a uh this is the pervious concrete system that uh was constructed back in I think 2018 2019 18 and um and essentially what it's showing is that um what it is it's it's it's a type of perious pavement system and you know normally when we pave it's asphalt water hits it runs off it and everything that's on top of it goes with it um the perious concrete is a little bit different to where you know during certain storm events that water actually wck through the concrete into the Rock base and essentially never leaves a site there are some other um L systems like as far as like rain Gardens um this is an example one and essentially what it is you know in Li of having a single Pond strategically plac smaller depressional areas to collect and perk storm water um really is is is more advantageous when you talk about removing nutrients from the flow stream and then also too um I mentioned that pawns are still going to be important you know um and they they do have a nutrient removal benefit um they just may not be the they they still will be a critical tool they just may not be the only tool that picture on the left was nice when it was brand new that's not what it looks like today okay sorry pain point for me um yeah that's fine and so the uh so we're also going to talk about um in the code construction and maintenance requirements when we talk about construction requirements it's really more or less okay what are the side Banks of your pond you know what are the side Bank slopes that are allowed um what are the necessary clearances that you need between your groundwater table and your pond bottom and also we're going to talk about maintenance requirements as well to where um it's important for us that not only we build these system systems but obviously they're not going to continue as um or they're not going to function as intended unless the owner maintains them accordingly so certainly uh we we recognize the need for maintenance within the code as well um and lastly um we're also going to uh carry forward a lot of the mpds topics we're we're um we're we're going to expand a bit on what we're considering an illicit discharge uh we are um also taking this opportunity to to um identify or or or let's say uh codify the fact that uh construction sites do need to manage their discharges um that's something that wasn't as explicit as as it would have liked in in the current code revision um and also we're going to provide the city inspection opportunities to where if there is a um you know if if they suspect that there could be the threat of elicit discharge we want to make sure that the city has the necessary necessary tools to kind of stop that stop that problem from happening before it becomes the Public's problem um and then also we're going to be outlining um outlining a enforcement procedure um for elicit discharges as well so transition to cumul substantial improvements does anybody have any qu um you know uh maybe put a button on the storm water discussion at least for now anybody have any questions about it which slide it I forget which slide it was but the reducing impervious surface calcul you know allow whatever I I do find that somewhat concerning I think that anyone who goes through a renovation and I I don't know if that applies not on single family home or single understand the question it's hard for you to answer because there's different districts there's different you know you know like the empty lot question like are you talking about a house you talking about commercial I'm not asking for a specific answer but when up there when it said reducing imper surface um Services I mean I get the reasoning why obviously runoff but I do find concern in regards to like a single family home who is going through a renovation project or a new build project um you know squeezing that inur surface ratio down um you know it's hard on some of these lots to do a driveway uh and a pool deck or a patio or whatever as it is today with some of the calculations so something like that does concern me so I don't know if you have something specific in the next meeting but that's just something that I would like to call out and know more information about well yeah and so really um in the single family example nutrient removal criteria is not an element of like a single family permit okay to where when when we talk about you know somebody coming in for that permit and making sure their eyes ours and all that kind of stuff I saw that note yeah yeah so uh but but that's important I want to make sure that that's clear because that's um you know that that would be a pretty impactful change um now with that being said there is the science that supports that less impervious is better and so from from our from a from a site design standpoint um you will have improved you know or let's say uh reduced nutrient loading from your site the less impervious material that you have so when a site designer is looking at how do I get that you know the last 10% that I need well that would certainly be a tool that they would evaluate recognizing that there is a direct cor correlation between them impervious surface and nutrient loading okay I'm trying not to sign off on something that would be more restrictive to someone trying to enhance their property from a single like that's my that's where my sense is um I get the reasoning why but when it comes to that specific bullet I don't know if it's a percentage that we need to know or whatever it may be I get that there's other avenues to accomplish that yeah but I just want to make sure because I know presently today I mean P how many imperf surface ratios do you go through on a single family renovation or a uh new build I mean they're constantly coming through and people are trying to squeeze it down to make sure it meets you know where they can get their permit for their driveway or their pool deck or whatever maybe happen it's got to be one of the most calculations you see constantly we do we do I mean we require that that and I get the requirement and it's 70% that's set in our comprehensive plan for the two residential zoning districts it is different in the um Hotel districts districts so it is consistent at 70% impervious right now in our comp plan and our um ldrs so again just where I'm coming from when someone says reducing that I just want to make sure that it's not going I want to make sure that number is before I say oh yeah I'm okay with reducing Sur so so I feel like that's a so the storm water code does not discuss impervious service ratio you know that it storm water code says if you are an eligible or if you are um a non-exempt project which a single family would be exempt you have to provide nutrient removal to X percentage like that that's what the storm water code is going to say so the and also they the the storm water calculations there's a correlation between the two so certainly this is you know the storm water code is is doesn't have anything about impervious surface ratio within there but there is a recognition if you are subject to that code which a single family home but not but if you are subject to that code the less impervious the better because that result that directly results in a lessened nutrient load just to be clear that would have to come back as a comp plan Amendment and a ldr amendment to chapter 68 okay so it would have high level ofh it's not going to be hidden in any change that we do Justin the other one that I saw that I just had a question on when and again it's just for clarity purposes uh the piping opportunities for overflow where applicable yeah when it says applicable I mean are those going to be called out no we so we we have a we have a footage distance to where if um you know the code says if you are in I probably should no this I wrote the dang thing but there's a footage in there um yeah but but it says if if you know because we want to make sure that we provide um let's say the city staff some concrete guidance on like well what does applicable mean you know and and essentially we we do have a defined distance that says if a structure is 2,000 ft away well that's not really you know that's not really feasible but if it's x amount of dis or within this threshold and we identifi that threshold probably should have my stuff together more and have that number for you I just don't just I understand the reasoning and the about M times on where we're trying to go and why we're doing I understand that at the same time I just am trying not to make us so closed off to potential growth and potential progress within the city when it comes either uh commercial or or or private residen that that's where my concern is yeah no and and to be honest you know when it comes to development you know the these State rules are going to they going to rock the boat a bit you know the state rules going to rock the boat and so I think it's important to recognize that somebody comes back and says well your your nutrient removal numbers are higher than what the state says well not really but what we did is we stripped out all the non outstanding water of Water and all the non-impaired water body comment uh percentages because they're not applicable to us so we are following what essentially the state's going to be mandating here in the near future so as a followup on that I wanted to ask a quick question about some of the things I didn't the past I was the engineer record for the Redevelopment of sunshine Maul for instance oh okay and back in that day we'd send a letter to swiftmud and say okay I'll reduce my uh impervious surface ratio by 1% I want an exemption did you round I did and I got it hey he about to say you know but the question is you know certain cities said okay that's great you can get uh Exempted from the southwest Florida Water Management District but the city of Clearwater back then said no you're not going to be exempt from our storm waterer rules does the city I mean we have only got like two or three big chunks of vacant land in the city of Treasure Island the city of Treasure Island I hope has a situation or we will have a situation where yeah despite the fact that you can exempt from Swift Mud we still have our own storm waterer detention and quality requirements I mean and also as a followup to that has Swift Mud changed that rule as well well well Swift Mud I mean the Statewide storm water rule like that's going to be all the water management districts okay so that's that's coming you know and and actually over the coming you know coming months or whatever period I mean they're going to have to get trained because you know they we've been we as in designers been doing this for decades you know you know I mean I did that 30 years ago and I didn't agree with it then so hopefully it's changed the for these Redevelopment sites that we do get some water quality treatment yeah now and and and really you know when it comes to you know when it comes to kind of the the performance um it's almost like we don't care how you know you know it's like okay if you're reduced and impervious and you can get your number reduction meet the code great if you're increasing impervious you're reconfiguring your site or you're you know let's say um doing something else that provides reduction great you know it's like we're we're really we as in Engineers are are are going to have to focus more on more on the um uh you know the performance Bas how are you or let's say prove to me that your site is reducing those nutrient removal numbers or reducing those uh uh nutrient concentrations and that's all a good thing yeah nobody wants to see any more algae blooms out in the Gulf of Mexico yeah and and you know just like the train modification manual it's going to take time you know it's like you know the the passing of all this and even at a Statewide level still going to get algae blooms all that's still going to happen you know and it's like it's going to take time for these for developments to cycle in and out and the new codes to be applicable over a long period of time um so really yeah I mean there's a lot of similarities between the storm water Rule and the modification manual to where you know the the start is signing it that's the start and then it really is going to take Cycles to really start to see um you know some of those long-term big picture benefits is that it for storm water we're good okay please proceed all right all right so as far as uh cumula substantial improvements next one so there are a couple things um this is really just a slide verbatim from from the last time we had this discussion and just wanted to um just revisit this is that so when we talk about um cumul substantial improvements which I'll kind of shorthand or or use acronym CSI for now um essentially what we're doing is that we want to make sure that we've we've been clear in that um the market value is dynamic to where um essentially the code would theor would would have a date that says everything done before whatever date that is does not count towards the calculation so if somebody's finishing up their kitchen now whatever we decide down the road that would not be included in any CSI CS moving forward and then also two it's important that that that date that's that would be within the code should should have get passed um that date would serve as the as as pretty much much the timeline for when you evaluate improvements the market value will fluctuate you know the market value is dynamic and that's something to where you know as as a property is improved and the market value increases um those are those are things that will that will remain Dynamic throughout the entire process the only thing that really hold static is that start date um and again the calculation approach um to determine substantial improvements is is is proposed to remain as it currently is um and the um and what we're proposing um is not unique to the county um I believe the city had a memorandum um recently that you know kind of showed some of the um Coastal and Beach communities um and and and their specific policies um again I think um you know to to kind of show where we are in in relation or what we're proposing versus what um what others are doing um I think there's actually a lifetime one in there as well um and then also too um this does not pertain to Corrections needed to address uh Health sanitary or Safety Code deficiencies um important caveat is that has to be in advance so it's something to where if you have a storm come through um and you know um it was known that there is a deficiency a health or safety deficiency before the storm after the the storm you can still repair that deficiency outside of the C outside of the um substantial Improvement calculation everything else is part of the stion Improvement but more or less that one item that's known in advance is exempt from that so just to hit on that a little bit harder and that's a FEMA requirement today that's the 50% Ru substantial improvements um so if you have a major storm now of course you're going to have health and safety code deficiencies but those are not exempt from those requirements and that's today yeah no and there's you know there's it's kind of a sad story coming out of South Florida um to where there was um you know after an I think decisions made um you know you know probably not malice but just you know thinking okay well this is a violation all that and essentially what happened is that FEMA came down after the fact and determined that those that was a essentially a substantial Improvement that was going on and so it impacted their insurance ratings and so it's important you know I I think of as we read that article we're all like okay let's let let's make sure we're abundantly clear on this to where we're ready um you know when unfortunately when when something like this will happen so as far as what pursu CSI um we think in in um you know it's it's just sound flood plane management um you know again the the substantial Improvement concept the the concept of removing homes from the flood plane is is essentially the core of what fem is trying to accomplish um whether that that be for protection of financial interest or whether that be for Health and Human safety or both um that's that's a goal that has been passed on by FEMA that that we feel that the CSI um reinforces and also too it it it minimizes the asri at risk Investments made within our community um you know part of what we're doing with the train modification manual um is we're we're trying to we're trying to tell people we want to protect your investment like when you spend money here we want to have a pro program or you let's say let's say regulations that make sure that you as a resident can do what you need to do to minimize you know minimize the the at risk Investments that you're going to have if you inject a certain sum of money into an at risk structure um and also to the um you know pursuit of this and I think uh the team's get a h on this later on will also lead to uh you know will lead to additional points which eventually could help uh get us to a lower class of in a CRS rating and that eventually results in a percentage of flood reduction or percentage of um flood plane premium uh reduction and then also um it'll it will support the city's long-term um long-term resiliency goals I had brought that up in a February meeting or yeah February in regards to the reduction in premiums for changing classes and I just want to reiterate that I'd like to see what the actual numbers would be some typ of percentage said we talk about it later but yeah well no that's and that's what um gentleman behind me here here Jesse you can have my mic all right so um I'll just introduce myself uh Jesse Miller principal planner for this and and so I'm pretty much is that any I'm just going to give kind of like a background pretty much on the community rating system because I feel like a lot of people might not be familiar with that um so basically this is like an an incentive program this is an incentive program that was put out by FEMA and of course city ofure island has joined us and pretty much the three goals that we do with this is to reduce and avoid flood damage to insurable property strengthen and support the insurance aspects of the national flood insurance program and Foster a comprehensive flood plane management and as of right now we are a class six and that does give us a 20% discount um this is not this does not apply to private flood insurance though and just to let you know where we're at now we have 2,276 points as of 2021 and to get to class five for a 25% discount we only just need an additional 223 points and so as you can see up here depending on which route we go um this is an automatic 20 points if we do the lower substantial Improvement threshold so that would get us down to about 200 more points that we would need and I'm sorry or just 49 oh 49 so I'm sorry all right so as of right now the standard nfip thing is the 50% threshold and so if we just lower that even 1% that automatically just gives us that additional 20 points to go towards our next CRS class is it one for one when you say changing classes from six to five you get a so obviously you said currently 20% discount if you go to class if we get to class five by getting those 223 points that we would get a 25% so that's let's say would I directly as a around resident who has a FEMA policy see a 5% reduction in those annual that's correct yes but of course that would all depend on when your policy goes into effect and when we receive that class five rating I I I understand that I just want to make sure that it's like a one for one thing and then moving on so depending on which number of years that we choose for the CSI at the moment we as we all know we just go permit to permit we get no points for that so if we go the 10 year that is an automatic 80 points on that one if it's 5 years 40 or if we would just go down to I believe the other option that was presented was one year is what everybody else is what most some other municipalities to and if you go with the one year of course we'll get zero points for that uh so with these options depending on which one we go with it would give us a total of 100 points which as I if you remove that from what we need now uh we would just need an additional 123 points and of course to get those additional points I mean this CRS program we have like 110 activities that we can go through I was I was going to say is there a catalog of things that can lead to 100 points or 20 points or 50 points yes there's a catalog right it's not like these are the only two no no these are not the only two U there's lots of options um but of course some of these don't apply because some of these activities are go towards like dams levies stuff like of course we don't have any of those and and that's something's been working pretty hard on we expect to have an audit coming up soon and so going through all the categories of what we have now and what the potentials are I don't think we're quite ready to to release all that information but it is something that he's been working on to be able to provide I mean I had mention I know that this came up in our slideshow um from March and it's something that um I've had people reach out to me about and what my thoughts are um I mean I've been thinking about it in regards to on why we would be going down the 10year route this absolutely explains what my question was in March because I was trying to figure out like why would we do this this actually this slide actually tells me why we would potentially look at doing this um I do not want my personal preference is not to have this the the the 10 year cycle or the fiveyear cycle so I mean we can address that later but I would like to see other options I mean I understand what the city's trying to do in regards to getting us from a class six to a class five I I understand why um but the the permit to permit thing being 10 or five years I just I cannot get on board with I just know how frustrating that would be for so many newcomers um or existing residents to the city yeah we want we do want to go through like a calculation example to kind of show what that might look like in practical application when you come into apply for permits but more importantly um while it would be great to continue to move up classes in the CRS rating really why we're talking about this now is because of the train modification program recognizing that if we have an older building that continues to make these substantial improvements they remain for a much longer period of time the low home on the street so assuming no catastrophic hurricane event that house is going to remain with the potential hold out that prevents you or your neighbors from being able to get to their house during High hied every single day that's really why it's combined this discussion with this program is because we really want to have our ability to elevate the road sooner than later it really is trying to get people to eventually over the next 80 years Elevate their homes and not just continue to remodel them yeah I think I had made that comment in the March meeting where it's just like and I and I I understand the direction I think it's more of like the battle because they you're going to run into those people um that are going to say I'm GNA take the risk you know I'm GNA live in my house this is how I want to do it if it gets whatever impacted by storms we're just going to deal with it now I understand the direction the city's trying to go into but you're we all know that we're going to run into those people that are going to have that type of absolutely and that's why we thought it would be so important to provide a calculation example of you know real life you know permits that people could come through and to see um you know when we get there we'll show that we're not even showing appreciation of structure values over time when we're looking at some of these Concepts so I think what we're showing is a pretty conservative approach to how you know maybe 10 years isn't as Doom and Gloom as it seems but like you said it's not 10 or nothing like we can talk about other options to to try to get us where we're going I don't want to speak for everybody on the board but my preference is to talk about it um because 10 is just not it's not I mean I live I lived through this whole process so putting someone else through it at 10 would just be an Absolut just I can't be on board yeah well actually I just want to touch on one last thing here um I I just want to make sure that everybody that is listening here um like these permits the of course these don't include like swimming pools fences shed stuff like that these are excluded from the FEMA 50% so just so you know anything outside of the structure that's not attach we do not include those costs quick question we're talking about getting from class six to class five and these 223 points we're looking at seeking and we got great are the other 123 obtainable yes they will be yeah um so there are like certain activities that fluctuate depending on what we do throughout the year before we go through the CRS uh verification um so like these ones for example this is standard these points would never change because this would be under code like other things like repetitive loss acquiring relocating repetitive loss structure stuff like that of course that would only happen once so you would only get those points like that one year just great question great question Mike so follow just so I'm clear for CSI being a 100 Point option is that the highest point option within your catalog that may be applicable to Treasure Island or the yes that would be the max points for the 10e and the no I understand in your in your catalog of options right you like because obviously I look at you know options that are in this thing to find points I look at this screen saying okay the city is showing me two options one 20 points and for one for 100 points out of that catalog correct just for this activity specifically I mean of course we have other activities we like limit fil and or whatever stuff like that okay so here I'll change my question are there other activities that are 100 point value I would have to look through the catalog and see which ones we have that would be that 100 points as well okay perfect thank you and you always want to provide yourself just getting that next class isn't enough buffer necessarily because like Jesse said it's very auditable and it depends on how you performed as to whether or not you can achieve them all so if they're not clod based you want to make sure you provide yourself that buffer so you're not you know hurting people's insurance premiums that coming audit year all right so this is going to be the CSI example that Stacy was touching on um so before I get into this though um I just kind of want to give everybody like a rough average of what we have here for the city of Treasure Island um So based off of values provided to us by the uh penel County property appraisers office um the average single family structural value in the city is a little over 334,000 so you're looking at each single family roughly has an average 50% or their CSI improvements of about $167,000 to use so we a little question cons I just find that a little little on the high side usually structural value being $350,000 i' feel it's okay it's fine what we typically find is that the Property Appraiser's office does assume low to where if you were to get a private structural valuation it would be significantly higher than what they have you do have properties though that said within the city that are extreme high that could skew those numbers I yep I'm sorry I didn't mean to cut no no that's fine I would rather see that come from our department saying over the last hundred non- FEMA compliant per home renovation permits that we have received the structural value has been X versus that property value of cross all that's how I would prefer to see that stat presented can you say that one more time so rather than taking the rather than taking the calculation from the penel County Property Appraisers website and saying the average structural value across the city of Treasure Island is X I would rather the city of Treasure Island take the last hundred non- FEMA compliant per for home construction home renovation to say this is what this is what we've seen as the average structural value why would you take non-compliant yeah because they're because that's what I'm yeah we we so so I think those those are the people coming in for less than 50 50% rule you know part of what we're trying to do is we're trying to capture like the current market to where like I I bought my house in like 2017 and like right is like laughable you know um so I think we wanted to try to not use old data that could deflate you know the numbers to where if we took that much of a look back I feel like we'd be Under reporting you know a lot of what you know based upon 2019 2020 values which are really kind of fundamentally different now um I mean we can certainly get we can but we also started the example at 200 to try to be more conservative that was just our starting number for this example yeah sry all right so yes so just moving on to the example after um of course those are just averages we can look in other things uh value of the structure State it's 200,000 49% of that value would be $98,000 uh so say with we go with the 10 year the CSI of the 10-year uh so first permit $40,000 cost um of course that could raise the value of the structure once you would have that possibly appraised or use the pelis County Property Appraiser's office as well and then moving on to year four uh permit two say the new value of the structure of course went up based off of what was done in permit one so now you're at 240,000 and 49% of that is 11 17,600 since you already spent 40,000 now you would deduct that from the new value which is 117600 so you would be left with $7,600 remaining then say for example yeah permit 2 cost 50,000 uh you would take the 240 plus the 50,000 equals to now roughly the value of your property is about 290,000 now and moving on I'm sorry all right so then moving on to year nine uh permit three uh how much can be spent in again assuming no increase in value over the past nine years 49% of the 290,000 is $ 142,00 $100 minus the 40,000 for permit 1 minus 50,000 for permit 2 so now you still have 52,000 $100 remaining to do improvements to your property still then moving on to permit four say this is year 15 since proposed CSI EV evaluation uses a rolling 10year period at Value at year 15 the costs associated with permits one and two would no longer be included in the calculation assuming the cost Perman three use the remaining amount available at that time toward structure improvements 52,000 100 and conservatively assuming the value of the structure has not increased with time how much is now available for structural improvements obviously because permit 1 and two have been deducted from that uh 290,000 plus $2,100 equals 3 42,1 100 would be the new value of your structure so you would be have 49% of that would be $67,200 is still within that 10-year time frame and so you would be left with $11 15,520 remaining available to still can still do improvements to your structure Jesse I have one question on this when we're going in and doing the CSI calculation and right now we're basing that on what's sitting in pelis County Property Appraisers it doesn't have to doesn't have I know it doesn't have to but let's say that's that's your starting point unless you get your State Certified real estate appraiser to come in and appraise your bill your structure and then that is approved by the ti building inspector and that raises amount higher than what the county has it or if you do that that before you start any improvements or in the middle of these improvements what effect does that have so are you asking would we use the higher value yes of course yes we would go with the highest value and like um I believe Stacy already touched on that is every time somebody you would get a private appraisal it usually comes in a lot higher than what the pelis county provides us with one problem that we're going to continually have out here is uh the cost of construction there's a house being improved down on Sunset Beach once again I think probably the structure value on that house is probably $50,000 you can spend $25,000 in a matter of minutes I mean let's face it you you reconstruct a new bathroom these days and it's uh 50 Grand that's the problem we're going to continue to run into in some of these older communities um it's just going to make difficult for people that want to take an old house and Improvement it's going to uh and I agree with the some of it especially in very low areas down there uh it's going to encourage tear downs and that's just back to life yep because then eventually yeah that's kind of the whole point of the CSI is to make everybody FEMA compliant then yep and just just to clarify I think in your one example I think that's true today right oh yeah I mean that's like you know that's something to where regardless of how we want to move with CSI I think that reality for a small home I think that exists just based upon like like if you did it today so I do want to make sure that um that scenario I think kind of remains constant to be honest and it is I mean that's that's what's happening right now yeah I mean it's that that I used as an example 100 y yards away from my front door and it's been sitting with Tac all over it because they can't get a building permit because they tried to do it without a permit shame on well the other thing that I have noticed is depending on how long you've had your house and how the property appraiser has that somebody else can have the same same identical floor plan and everything but because they bought their's 10 or 15 years later there's a big discrepancy on what your structure value is abely that's why it's worth a few hundred to to get your praise you just get a tax discount right what was that you just get a tax discount so not when you have to play with FEMA just find extremely interesting because this town is notorious for not wanting building and not doing this and then kind of putting in the direction of well we want teod Downs to build new houses it's just ex it's mindblowing to me from a conflict I get it I'm listening usually a lot of people do not like new building when it comes to Treasure Island so here we are and it's kind of we're trying to go to the Direction with CSI in regards to new buildings doesn't matter commerci or private property it's just I find it just absolutely mind it it is a very different direction but um I think what people are going to find that they hate more is driving through water or not being able to get around yeah again I understand the purpose and I don't want anyone to think that I'm being bad of it it's just you know this is something that you know when I had mentioned two two months ago and it comes to someone who's buying a house that's trying to grow their family or grow or or retire when it comes to you know living in Treasure Island want to make some improvements this is a bigger impact than I think a lot of people right I mean that's why we wanted to show this example because these are not small amounts of money it's true that the cost of construction does keep going up but it's also likely true that um the valuations of structures will go up as well when when does when does like this when does the CI piece need like kind of like a final sign off in regards to what what goes into Elevate we're all still preliminary right we're still having conversations developing it so there's more conversations about this topic specifically before it gets ined um so we were um we've had so many meetings with you all and we we still have a few more to come we still hav't hit on zoning which is a big one which is chapter 68 uh we still have a meeting that we're planning to hold May 15th with contractors Architects and Engineers to talk about the program as a whole and and what that means for them to submit applications and work with the city um but we were hoping um to have the majority of that conversation today I don't want to put I I don't really know how far along Jesse is with trying to wrap up some of his projections of where we can get um so I don't know how soon we can provide that but perhaps we could have one more conversation when we bring zoning back even though that is a big one to talk about this um but we were anticipating um one more meeting with you all to talk about 68 and then one to kind of you know final workshop and wrap up okay so we're we're getting towards the end of the but the CSI thing when it comes to calculations and cumulative um we will be able to address that one more time I mean we can we can open up conversations whenever you all see fit um however um I know there are a lot of people who are anxious to to keep this moving as well so if there's anything that we can address for you today or if you can point us to additional specific information that you would like to see that would help you to make that decision that would be very helpful I would like to see other I don't want to speak for everyone I'd like to see other options for the points available um that are not eight and 10 years I know that Jesse said zero you know zero cumulative permits is zero points but I would like to see what other options we could find CSI there are yeah that that's actually what I wanted to check on so you're talking about other activities that do not involve CSI yes okay personally I I don't like I don't as everyone knows I don't like the 10 or the eight or the four I think it was 10 and eight you said 10 and eight 10 five 10 and five I do not like the 10 and five yeah so those are the only ones that they give us points under that program and they're also important to help us to achieve this whole program so we're just not going to get there if people continue to to never rebuild their structures so that that's why this is so important to us we're not saying it has to be five or 10 maybe you don't want the points maybe you want it to be four years maybe you want it to be three years um whatever that may be and the other thing that I wanted to bring back and I think Diana you may have brought this up um previously is um because of insurance impacts um i' I've run into the same problem with my own homes of not being able to ensure a roof even though it has time left you know they say but we don't care if it has 5 years left you know you're not going to get that insurance unless you replace it we wanted to go through that calculation because there is enough money in there generally even when you're doing permits every couple of years to to probably replace a roof and not have a problem um but we do not have the question answered if we do start to provide exemptions within that CSI calculation whether or not we would get any points at all so if we start to make add additional exemptions other than health and safety um that's already allowed for we do not have that clarification so that is one big point that we wanted to have answered for you to come back anyway the other activities the other activities you're talking about you said something that are they changing all the time every year or even if we could come up with the points via that method there's a problem with that or some aren't applicable to our our situ right I get that I thought you said something that maybe they change property that they keep on flooding and you can only get it the one time yeah that and also depends like some activities that are performed like say like staff changed within the past year or something like that and some activities were not done within that time frame then we would not get points for that year so that's why some things are missed some things are added on code you got you know you you got it yeah once something's in code that that's solid every time we would get those points yeah I guess it depends on who's reviewing us and what Catherine's saying is just kind of what I was trying to reiterate is C CSI and the CRS points that that are accompanied with that is the cherry on top that's really not why we're talking about it right now um we're talking about it because of terrain modification we're talking about it because of resiliency um did you want to talk about these okay all right so I'm sure most of us have read through these definitions already so we all know what substantial Improvement is as of right now uh substantial damage how as we do know that is slightly different so say we would get hit by Hurricane hopefully we don't um if something is determined 50% substantially damaged unfortunately that house would be have to be reconstructed and be FEMA compliant at that time there would be no exemptions anything that could stop that from happening um and did we have any questions about the definitions or right substantial damages is currently the requirement so that's not something that would change with any proposed recommendations and that's another thing when we talk about protecting Investments you know we're going to have some level of storm at some point in time that's probably going to be substantial in the next you know 80 years that we're talking about this program and so that's why we come keep coming back to that term protecting your Investments if you want to put you know $100,000 into your home hopefully you have you know some additional protection against that when it does come again this is not a a hurricane proof storm surge proof program um it is more geared towards sea level rise and um and those things but if you have an older home that you're approving it's not going to be up to current code and it's not going to be as resilient as a newer construction building which would also have some elevation to it all right um you know so Stacy had on a that um you know I think certainly we want to maintain positivity and say if if if a storm hits if a storm hits like it's going to happen right I mean it's it's it's bound to happen whether it's next year or two decades from now um you know we don't know um but again we we know that that's going to happen and we know when that storm hits those those Investments are gone they're gone and um unfortunately just you know human nature is you feel a lot different before the situation than after the situation um and um those those homes that are damaged now or even with the the CSI in place should should we move forward with that um they would still need to be rebuilt um and then it's really likely that um CSI you know when when that major damage happens um major damage is Major cost you know that equals major cost and so it's it's unlikely that the CSI is going to be the triggering mechanism if we get hit by the hurricane that oh I would have been able to repair and not elevate my house but because of this pesky CSI program I'm going to have to elevate you know that we we don't see that you know we don't really see that that truth playing out um and then also too we do think that one of the benefits is that you know if a God forbid when a storm hits um we're not going to be the only ones impacted it's going to be everybody in this area so when you talk about you know rebuilding you talk about material shortages contractor shortages you know U just life is harder and so we think one of the benefit is is that through the CSI we're able to promote rebuilding on the owner's terms you know we're able to to to pretty much have this this reconstruction happen in a low in a lower stress environment versus in a scenario to where essentially the feds force you to do it and then also too we we know you know kind of trying to trying to put ourselves into a homeowner shoe it's like you know or homeowners um shoes it's like okay well you know it's it's one thing to have the opinion that well I'm I'm fine with that risk now um but we do feel that the sentiment would be different after the storm and um we do think that that you know in in that resident's mind who invested a lot of money the year before and now it's gone um if CSI could help alleviate that um you know we certainly understand that's there there there will be resistance um because elevating a home is does not come without its own challenges you know um but again if you can do it on your own terms without the feds forcing you and and and you can do it under a lower stress environment um we we do think there are some major benefits in that as well I think those are very good good points but one of the things that you have to also remember is that we have retired people and they no longer have a way of generating income this is a whole different impact on them and I and I'll use Ross and I as an example Ross would be able to handle that much better with him being younger and just starting out with the family and stuffff where my husband and I we're near not near the end but I mean we're in the senior part of that and it and it does make a big impact if I was a lot younger I would be 100% going this way but that's because I would have earning potential and all that well if you're retired now you're going to have a problem I'm I know that I'm not only one sitting in this city in that same situation and so that gets kind of hard to to um swallow even though you understand it and you realize it but some that's not going to be real practical to elevate on your own terms personally I think mine's going to be if we get severe damage and feds make me do it then I'm going to have to do it but up to that point I may not so I may be the lonely one on there saying okay on the street and I'm the hold out because I'm 90 years old and I'm not going to spend what money I have left in the bank to elevate for my next year of Life yeah no and and and really you know the one thing that that we feel is important about the program we are not forcing anybody to elevate you know we're not forcing anybody Elevate and and the thing is that if if you're a retired person and you know you don't have uh let's say a steady income stream um and you have a situation to where you're like you know what I I want to fix up the house I think the CSI still allows for that true you know you know and and that's really something to where you know kind of with that example we really wanted to show that okay can you make everything you know marble and blow out everything not under CSI but again that doesn't mean you can't do stuff you know and so really that we we feel that that with the CSI we are not stopping people from making improvements that are necessary because a baby's coming or because they have you know they they have elderly relative moving in with them this these kind of life situations we still feel the CSI can tackle and if you've been doing stuff in the prior Year all that doesn't count you know so this is all looking forward you know so so I think in your example you have the ability to choose I'll wait until the feds make me you know and that's something that we recognize that if people don't want to elevate then they don't have to but also if you're looking to put in $300,000 into your home that that's a different animal you know and yeah and so really we're trying to thread the needle between recognizing that people got to live their life and recognizing that um you know there are people who are just going to say well I'm just going to you know keep up the house and when I get forced to elevate I'm going to elevate and the program supports that but we also don't want to have it to where you know you have a structure that's that grade and over the next 20 years we have millions of dollars being sunk into that property because of a loophole within our permit program and and and that's and and even that you can you know if you space it out right you can still put a bunch of money to the property so you know that one of the things I think we really wanted to hit home with that example is that this is not saying that you when life happens you can't do stuff you know there's there's still you know there's still there's still Improvement money on the table in CSI and that approving CSI is not saying that can't pay your house can't do anything you know it's it's not it's not that it's it's a there are restrictions on it I mean there are you know there's there's a threshold and there's a rolling 10-year period that hasn't started now um so again you know I think to your point we don't want to force people to elevate if they're just minding their own business and re tired and you know yeah no one's going to be 99 and Elevate for the last year life um but again too if that 99-year-old you know wants to gold plate everything well that's a little different animal you know I think we've kind of already hit on the the summary points do we want to just have a discussion um I think we've got some good feedback of some additional information that that might be helpful um but with regard to to going from 50% % to 49% doeses anyone have a concern with that proposed change I don't have any concerns with 50 to 49 I I have zero concerns from that I mean you're talking 1% okay and then um do we want to talk about how we feel about the tenure across the board I just you're not forcing people but just you know a 300 000 renovation project to make your house nice compared to what it cost to scrape and build an elevated house the Delta is tremendous a million dollars at least aill at least a million dollars so you have people that want to put maybe 500 whatever the number is they want to put money into their house they get into the calculation they've got this roof picked out but then when it comes down to it they can't do that roof so it's like okay well I'm going to make all these nice Renovations but then I can't get my fancy roof I just you know I get they have to wait do the nice Renovations and get a new appraisal and then maybe you get roof I guess the uh main question I have is how much of a price reduction in uh blood insurance do we actually get by getting that additional 223 points that we're aiming 5% is it 5% we're looking across the board at at what we can do I don't think we're ready to provide that analysis because it's very complicated um but we that is a idea yeah I guess the uh question I have is it really worth going through all these gations for a 5% reduction again that's not really the purpose of why we're talking about it the reason we brought you the C the CRS data was that was asked for before what would this affect and so we brought that for that reason I don't want anyone to think that the reason we're doing this is to get a higher rating the we just wanted you to know the effect of doing it I I understand that for my position for where I'm at within Paradise Island or wherever I live and for other residents amongst treasur on because I care about the city as a whole I just am very very cautious and I again it's not about people doing construction projects I understand the route that we're trying to go in regards to elevati but just that positioning of the cumulative years being factored into the reasoning of LTI I i' like need to sleep on it I don't think I can give you an answer but I also want those slides on the calculation because I was trying to read all they're actually in the packet I know they're online those same uh CS are in there my printer ran out of ink so I could oh no problem but they are on the online version I just wanted everybody to know I know I know Miss crille thinks that I'm very young I'm actually like a 70-year-old 30-year-old body so i' like and read we'll be happy to give you a set thank you the biggest benefit I mean that the terrain modification manual is doing right now I mean as of this day is I have a lot of people that are calling me and say hey I just bought a house on is Palms I want to raise it I want to bring it up to uh what the uh terrain modification manual is uh asking me to do is raise my stilt house which I will build to 7.6 and I think that's the most important uh thing at this point where we can help out the people that are willing to uh to rebuild their houses right now I mean there are a lot of houses on uh this island get torn down in the next 10 years and it would be negligent on our part part not to help them out I mean I would have loved to uh been able to build my house with a garage elevation 7.6 right now it's at 5.8 um I'm lucky nothing's affected me me in a very long time like Justin was saying is the storm coming hopefully not soon but you know when ad DEA came from what I remember uh the elevation it got up to was 4.58 uh it was coming up my driveway pretty good uh I just think we need to get to a point where we can somehow go forward and get this uh modified because raising roads that's probably not going to happen in my lifetime uh raising uh houses that is going to happen in my life time and I got a guy who I recently met and he called me up and said hey when do you think this is going to uh be enacted because I want to I want to do this and uh so I think it's something that any way we can move it forward is way to do it and it's strictly for the private land owner right now I mean we have situation where our downtown will be redeveloped uh in the near future I would say in the next three or four years I hope uh the gator property sitting out there it who knows what's going to happen with that piece of property but uh I just think it's a very important uh piece of uh a very important ordinance to move forward and I think the biggest benefit is going to be helping the private home homeowner it's not going to help uh the guy who's uh saying hey I'm going to stay in my existing house no matter what I want to uh see if we can't move something forward so we new homeowners because it's coming I mean let's face it I see it every day on Sunset Beach you ought to see the number of vacant Lots because people they got flooded in Thea they didn't build their houses back they tore them down there's two or three uh Lots within a block of me that are sitting because of and uh so let's see what we can do as a board so are we allowed to we can't add exemptions to CSI can we that's what we're trying to get more clarification on um so we had Roofing or something like that you we would like to get you that information we know you asked for that before and that's important for you to have it and and I mean they you can add it I think the question is whether you can add it and get the CRS point oh so you know if if you know you know getting the CRS points cherry on top I think was the ter that's that's a good way to put it that's like that's the secondary benefit if if there were stuff that wanted to be added then we can certainly add it we just don't know if you know we'll have to kind of walk back the statement of this is how many points we get an answer from FEMA or is that who wve call FEA we're waiting no we're waiting for a response my focus is not on the CSI points my focus is on I mean again Elevate TI is what my focus is I get the CSI points come with it and I understand Richard has rich friends that are building big houses which is great but you know that are that are new residents to the city of island or maybe they they're just moving from one Island to the other but there are a lot of other residents on the island like us myself included that you know and there's other people that may have already done a construction project in their houses so and there that's the story that people growing or families growing or people wanting to retire that want to make their home nice and livable with what they have for the remaining years so um you know but I get the direction that it's going um I'm not trying to be combative I'm just saying I just would like to see those options I'm glad that you had brought that up in regards to if there are exemptions Russ let come up with this hypothetical situation so 10 years one year we don't get any points we don't get any benefit but if we make it one year you're able to uh help these guys out that want to keep their house at zero a little bit I mean I know that we ultimately want to raise the whole island the target date is 2100 no nobody in this room is going to live to see that um don't count me [Laughter] out but you know just wondering uh I mean if we made it one year yeah you'd have a lot more people that would not uh meet what we're trying to achieve by 2100 MH uh what's going to happen in the next 76 years we got no way to telling no way to telling but uh I'm just trying to figure out a way Stacy is there a middle ground between zero and five that works for elev yeah I mean I just trying to figure out a uh is there a uh like you just said a middle ground something to make everybody happy and uh I do want to see we what we would come up with was a passing of an ordinance that would allow Phil to be brought into this island I think let's put this way I built my new house in 1996 I can't remember what the laws were back then I brought in a lot of Phil it was a a lot of Phil brought in on that lot was it illegal well I don't know I'm P the statute of limitations all right at the time I didn't realize we had that law if we had it uh but I do know that we have it now and it's a situation with tital rise that we need to get rid of the no fill Rule and start allowing people to raise their houses yeah I'm not an expert I mean Stacy is three is three years if you're asking for a medal I think that's five I do I because the tin seems like a 10 rolling does really seem pretty especially if you get a pretty good let's say a level one hurricane come through you may have Eve damage or roof damage and that five years would still allow you to kind of take care of some of that roof even though you weren't and you could still maybe do improvements I think a fiveyear I could be on board with a five I just don't want 10 I mean I want people coming in here and doing building permits I mean they they're giving us money I mean if we're not going to have any commercial development bringing us money let these homeowners keep doing renovation projects but I me I'm good with five 10's aggressive are you yeah no you know I I I think when you talk about elevating a home um from my own personal experience and get a quote for it you know essentially what it is is that they they put beams underneath the structure and they obviously they elevate it and then they normally construct like a like a piling or a column system to support it crazy and then what you would do is then you would likely you know if if we move forward with the El you know with the um with the train modification program then really what we would do is that normally we would set that elevation based upon what the flood plane plus the BF is uh with the train modif with with train modification this is actually a nice introduction to a New Concept we're going to talk about for chapter 68 which is your train modification adjustment Factor so essentially what what we recognize is that um there's a certain style of home that is out here to where you have your garage underneath and you have your lowest floor per building code definition but but like your living floor up top and so what and right now that living floor is based upon a uh BFE plus two elevation so what we didn't want to have happen is say that the living floor stays at the same elevation and most people want a garage underneath and essentially what we're doing is saying okay well that garage has to be at this elevation and you only have a certain height garage that really is Impractical so what we're proposing is a train modification adjustment factor that essentially allows you to take the delta or the difference between your existing grade and your proposed grade and add that to your BF plus two plus your train modification factor which will allow for conventional um or which will allow for kind of the conventional style of home that you see out here um to be built and again when we talk about the Delta we're talking about like usually what a couple feet something like that two yeah like like generally two give you additional height to not take away since we're making you raise it up at the bottom we don't want you to to lose it top or to have a low garage or something like that yeah so and and and then so when you talk about elevating the home based upon what the lowest floor would be um which would include your BF plus your freeboard plus your train modification Factor then you would essentially pour the slab at the living ele you know at at the at the base floor elevation and depending on the type of special flood Hazard area you're in if you're Coastal a or you are um Coastal aay in a velocity Zone you'd build like a breakaway wall system or you'd keep it open and if you were just in an a Zone then you would pretty much finish out your garage and put in flood vents um with the with the goal that kind of the use the usage would be really kind of similar whether it's a new build or an elevated home it's still kind of that conventional home you see here which is the garage underneath and the structure on top I guess my question I'm sorry was more along the lines of um you made a good point that the cost um to substantially modify a home versus the cost of new construction is so different is that a middle ground potentially cost was it's like 400 or 500 grand for like a 3,000 foot home yeah I would think that probably somewhat less but maybe I think what we had talked about was there was um a lot of new contractors coming online who are able to do this work but the cost of construction has gone up and so I think we're still kind of in that it's just wild when you have let's just say you've got a pool pump hooked to the side of your house you've got Plumbing you've got a generator you oh yeah mhm electric you know the lines I mean very I've talked to my Builder about it I mean it's you know it's just a lot of there's a lot of things you don't think about is including the mess as well I mean it is an extremely messy project I'm good with five though I mean I think the way that you laid it out I appreciate that I just need to go through those slides for the calculation thing and and if it's in the pack I'll read it online okay with yeah so really we're really going to have to elevate every single home even the things we're built in the last 10 years they're going to have to go up too right no what basically is there's two different questions there's the terrain modification question and there's the FEMA compliant question so these houses are considered FEMA compliant already they're not subject to this cumulative substantial Improvement but they would be subject to Triggers on a major remodel so Justin can yeah address that but you're talking about meeting the goals you're talking about the homes that were built last yesterday roads yeah you can't raise the roads until you're you're going to be raising these homes that were built 5 years ago because they're below the threshold right yeah so and and really so when we talk about you know when we talk about um all the tools that are at disposal and that and and that that's going to happen right there there will be a scenario in and in in 80 years to where there will be a place where you have 80% of the home or 90% of the homes done and then a couple either one that was built just before this new new rig or one that just is a hold out because they're they're they're 99 right um yeah and and so in that scenario to where we are talking about isolated locations sporadically throughout the city I think there are engineered solutions that could be implemented there now if we're talking about if everybody's like that I think it's a lot harder Hill to climb up but if we're talking in a scenario to where we're at 2100 and we have these couple problematic areas that we got to address I I think that's a huge win and yeah well well that's you know I mean c certainly from from a structur adaptability standpoint that's possible and then also too from just you know I talk about not wanting to you know what we talk about not doing pump stations we're talking about not doing pump stations as our sole means of drainage conveyance like that's what we're talking about there there's going to be a time to where we got a strategically use a pump station likely in a scenario to where you had a large home built under the old rules wind loaded high enough all that kind of stuff and we'll we'll need to adapt and find solution for those locations structure adaptability just a little all right where this is like a 68 preview huh so um so you know all relates to each other yeah and and you know so when we talk about structure adaptability um that is actually a concept that that Miami Beach is is using within their program and essentially what it says and and and in our case you know we talk we we've discussed to where the program needs to be flexible and recognize the uniqueness of of each property and we talked about how we have goals and we purposely call them goals because the manual essentially has requirements that essentially override those goals and you got to meet all those requirements and you may have a base for elevation of 6 .1 or in Sunset maybe even lower like you know let's say somebody imported a legal fill I don't know you know but like you know like 5.2 or something and you may have those scenarios and so essentially what what we're going to be looking at is we're going to be looking for structure adaptability to where if there's a time to where um you or if if the opportunity arises and um we're we're able to elevate the road or um the road gets to a certain height that the person wants to elevate their garage that the structure can handle that so essentially it would be designed in a manner to where you would essentially have a um in in in a a a larger or a higher garage than maybe what you'd be required to because essentially what you're saying is that you got to have your code required garage height plus the difference between the goal and the elevation you're actually at so if you're at 5.6 and the goal is 7.6 you got two foot your garage would need to be two foot higher in order to make sure that the structure is adaptable come 60 70 years we know it can handle the Earth load and it can H and and that and that pretty much it can support elevating the the garage floor is that what we're going to be doing that's that that is what we're going to be talking about in chapter 68 is as far as like having that structure adaptability because again you know a lot of the reason why or or some of the reason why a um a home may not be able to meet its base floor goals is dependent of the road and to be honest like this is the Sunset Beach example is low road short lot and if and if we have a slope restriction then we're pretty much just in a Perpetual cycle of not being able to do anything so essentially what we're trying to do is we're trying to say okay we recognize that we don't want to have 45 degree slopes for people going up their driveway and that we want to have a reasonable means of ESS for the property and that likely in a Sunset Beach environment where it's low and your lots are small that's really going to mean that you're kind of governed by the grade of the road but we also don't want that to to perpetuate itself to where now we're essentially saying that that structure is always going to have that garage elevation we want that garage elevation to essentially be adaptable and not adaptable in the manner to you flip a switch and it raises we recognize that there's effort to do that but at least from how the structure is built we got the calculations that we know it can handle an additional two to fill within the garage as in like tear up the slab because again a lot of the garages for these larger structures they're not slab on grade you know like they're they're a foundation system to where that garage system is independent of the foundation and so essentially it's tearing up the garage and adding fill and and and and repouring your repouring your slab and your eag to your home and then the city would probably take care of that I I don't believe the city would take care of that no no they would not well you can just go to a homeowner and say hey you got you got to spend 200,000 or whatever no so we're our our our Focus right now is making sure that when the structure is built it's it's it's able to be adapted the thought is is that in that 80-year time frame when we're down that road and everybody else on the street potentially has done the train modification is higher that that homeowner that's not that has an adaptable structure is going to be so sick of dealing with the road issues that that they would want to do that for their property and and we have the Cals that say that they can do it and and it's something that essentially it was designed to have happen and and that's you know the whole the reason we're talking about CSI and all this is about lost opportunities and every time that home gets built to your point once it's built that opportunity lost you know so if we do lose an opportunity to hit the base floor goal we want to at least make sure that we have some uh some some way to accomplish it in the future whatever situation triggers that that need so sense mhm you know the uh I use I enjoy having an example but I'm use going to use my street as an example I could see if we ever get to this point my street would be raised about the year 20099 because we do have a lot of atg grade houses out there uh but the ones that are being rebuilt out on Sunset Beach now I mean it's required that you have to build a stil house and uh there a lot of houses being built out there as Ste houses using my house as an example uh I'm at 5.8 in the garage I could never see in my lifetime that road being raised that that would be a problem that I would actually have to do something to raise my house up 7.6 just never yeah and but you know but again too I think if we're in an environment to where um the challenges we have our garages at 5.6 I mean oh my God what a win you know like that I mean that that would be like we've won if if that's the challenge you know and I think in those scenarios you know because our low road is 5.1 and these elevations were Drive based upon like conventional grading patterns conventional slopes but recognizing that there's going to be odd ball scenarios all throughout and so I think in that scenario our goal elevation is 5.1 we can work with 5.8 yeah and that's you just took the words out of my mouth if the road goes up to 5.1 in front of my house hey so not everybody's going to get hit with the idea you just built a house five years ago you're going to have to raise it most of these houses are going to be high enough that it will work especially out on the newer Islands I mean let's face it Capri palms and Paradise are built to a higher standard I mean the worst roads on Treasure Island are the Avenues between 88th Avenue and 95th Avenue on Sunset Beach they're horribly designed and it will be very hard to bring those up to the standards that we would like to meet in the terrain modification manual out there on uh the the Phil islands of palms and Capri those houses are pretty high already I mean I don't have any exact numbers but I'd be willing to bet finish floor elevations on those islands are in the five to six range and in general I think that's correct but we've got the repetitive loss map up and you will see that there are some properties that flood repeatedly even out even out there that it's it you know palms palms and Capri for you would think that they're the same they are very different they are very different and 115th Avenue is really a you know problematic roadway and it's interesting just looking at that map I mean look where the repetitive damage houses are on all palms they're all at the low end of the street cacs at the south end or the southeast end are all the high points and uh good for them but uh yeah that's an interesting map can you uh scroll down a little bit and go to Sunset and you'll see everything's in the red you'll see a lot more uh is in the red wow pretty much I mean even uh on my street there I'm out of it barely but it is interesting because uh yeah nothing nothing and it's the roads that I just mentioned 888 to 95th that's entirely in the red entirely these also look a lot like the damage assessment map from the last two storms where we went out and did damage assessment it's pretty very very consistent these are the recent Maps we're not allowed to show the specific houses so these are areas where there have been repetitive losses you can't not allow to people who live here well I'm not allowed to say this house this this house this house you know don't want I want you to meet the rules but uh there may be a high house within this that didn't have any damage you know I'm not saying every house in the red box had damage but this is very consistent with the house by house pattern that we saw in the last two storms did we hear from some of the other board members on on on the CSI proposals and where so we have this direction going forward with the information that we have now five I think five would be a good compromise I think 10 is too long what are the differences in the impacts of the modification model it's just point just additional potential missed opportunities to elevate way to quantify that difficult yeah I it yeah that that that'd be tough to Mike said he's good with five five here good with 10 I'm okay with five okay with five five really just that's the situation is we have to hit a happy medium somewhere uh 10 would get a lot of people rais in half five maybe not so much but you make it one you'll have a heck of a lot of houses that aren't going to get raised let's put this way the real estate market has gone insane out here on the island I mean houses that uh the house right next door to mine sold in 2014 for $457,000 that same lot if you bought it today would be multi-million IM we had a downtown think of that so I think I think we're aiming at five all right I mean somebody tell me to shut up if uh they disagree with five but uh I'm good I think it's a consensus it's a happy me it's an unhappy medium how's that sound any other questions about the topics today nope yes wanted to talk about the schedule for um May if that's okay with everyone um we are trying to be flexible with meeting dates and um yes um May 23rd date would that work um instead of May 9th moving that meeting back two weeks really it would really great to be here because uh I will not be in the country on May 23rd I was looking at the dates I'd love to be here on May 9th but I will be actually leaving on May 15th so you're gone for the next two weeks okay and anybody else have a conflict or not able to be here may as a uh so what's the ask you want to know if there's May 23rd will work for a meeting there's zero chance I will be in town okay so two of you no we don't want to do the ninth right we're not going to do the nth we we have some conflicts um Katherine and I are actually and Justin were presenting this program at the Tampa Bay Regional resiliency conference um that those two days we're at that conference and then um we also because 68 is so detailed with with requirements that are entered in this program we to take a little bit of extra time to flush some of those Concepts out hopefully you're getting paid at your speaking engagement no there's a free lunch there free lunch yeah why can't we do the 16 um 16th is uh definitely on to for um pnz and we will try to make that work it just depends we have a big backlog of pnz cases that have been waiting to be complet and every one of them is missing like two things so we could end up with a very heavy pnz load so we you know we we can't overbook you Richard just said that he's out um I'm out too on the 16th as well okay I mean if you wanted any date prior to the 15th of May is great okay I know that puts y'all under a burden but I'm actually gone from May 15th to June can you move pnz meetings to like different days if you give enough notice like does it have to be the third Thursday of every month it's just there the developers are working against that deadline so I don't like to move it up I can move it back up is makes it difficult for them I mean I feel like yeah maybe we could it we should know within the next week or two if they're going to have a complete enough application because we need you know three weeks to review it write the staff report um internally review it with legal and get it to do anyway so we'll know shortly how many cases we have for um May the other thing I want to let you know um and we'll we'll come back to you in May with some specific things but on the 20th of June which would be our pnz day we are having this uh candidates for city manager public meetings so we will not have our pnz that date we would like to move it um probably back a week if that works for everybody so that would go to um the 27th of June that would be fine for pnz for me oh back being okay that's better further out so no conflicts with that so I don't have any conflicts for the 27th I would just would like to know if it so it's definitely getting moved it's definitely not on the 20th that's all I can say but I think the 27th seems like the place to move it to only because these developers are working against a deadline I don't like to move the meeting up in time I understand you I want to keep developers happy so Thursday the 27th yes what you're saying is you got lots of cases with two issues tell them to get off the diamond how a architect that'll get it get it done well they're so close so we every month we think they're going to go forward and we're always just waiting on that one last piece so I booked our family vacation the week that's like it was like I specifically booked a vacation so I could be here for June so then you like tell me that meeting move for Jun so what's May what are we doing I'm confused we would like to try to meet 30th if that works for May does that work it's for me May 30th is good yeah Justin we need to to find out and that would be LPA and we have to check with our uh Jen as well that would be LPA no pnz because LPA on the 30th May 30th then a proposed um y June 27z okay don't need hopefully we'll have the LPA on the right days it's normal in June as long as we can get an updated list of projects that we approved that are their phases for oh for pnz yeah I saw that condo hotels off 122nd hit the real estate market so I don't think that project's going forward condo hotels on 120 second one right on oh I know which one is sorry I was I was drawing blank what's on 122nd you guys have done enough work for than thank you you guys have done a lot of work too okay so we go forward to number seven okay local planning agencies issues comments under discussion we kind of just did that reports of City attorney staff for board members nobody xlpa meeting obviously we just went through all that public comments uh anybody got any public comments I would like to make one but I'll let anybody else go first the you know the one thing I always wanted to say is I've lived here for a long time uh the city of Treasure Island actually has an opportunity and I think as volunteer members MERS of this board we should all take great interest in what's going to happen into our downtown area I would love to see in my lifetime a downtown area that I would enjoy going to to have a good dinner I mean I love foxies right now but our Central business district is uh is pretty much lacking and uh well the whole South half is lacking uh because it's gone but uh I think this is a opportunity I was talking to Katherine yesterday about architectural standards if we could come encourage the developers and that's all you can do is you can encourage them to come up with a unified design standard that would be really wonderful to come up with some architectural style that uh both sides of the road could agree on and uh come up with something that we would all uh want to come down to downtown Treasure Island eat dinner go do a little shopping it's not a big area the uh Main anchor on a situation like that is a restaurant I mean our prime example is Cory Avenue Cory Avenue five year years ago was a dead zone I mean not much was happening but kin hotman with chill uh swigwam a few other uh restaurant and bars in that area have actually turned that area around actually is a situation on a Friday night where it's hard to find a parking space and it would be nice to see something like that here on treaser island as well you've been to Golfport recently on a Friday or Saturday night and goport yeah have not been there try it out it'll show you that it doesn't have to be big to be awesome yeah oh Golfport is golf boards downtown is incredible yeah but what are their anchors restaurants yeah there's restaurants you know we're not going to have a retail anchor there's people there oh yeah I mean you know we're not going to have a new Shopping Center we're not going have a grocery store we've already got a grocery store it's going to be a nice restaurant that it's going to be act as the yaner that is going to pull in enough people that will they will want to go shopping while they're there and that's what Cory is doing right now so that's my two cents Katherine is there any moving on the property on the South Side the oh the south side of downtown um we have been talking to the developer but um I don't have anything concrete I know from what I hear people say well why is the city draging I go that's private property a lot of people do not realize the city doesn't own all the property and doesn't own the downtown area it's up to the private owner and developers to get us something that's it and just so you know all over the city we have lots of development proposals so you'll be seeing them soon enough it's just trying to get these packages complete so there are a lot of hotels and and small medium siiz hotels wonderful really yes wonderful wow so there's a lot cooking is just not all the way cooked yet yeah now if they build them we can actually get some money and some tax money pay for all the stuff we got all right thank you thank you have a motion to adjourn I move we adjourn all in favor hi go