[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] he [Music] he [Music] he [Music] [Music] welcome to the vucha County council meeting the meeting will begin in 10 minutes [Music] [Music] he [Music] [Music] he [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] he [Music] [Music] testing check one two he [Music] he [Music] [Music] welcome to the vucha County council meeting the meeting will begin in 5 minutes [Music] h [Music] is you [Music] welcome to the vucha County council meeting the meeting will begin in 2 minutes [Music] [Music] okay if everybody wants to find their seat we will get started here [Music] shortly Rowdy Crow today okay okay it is 9:01 and we will call the June 4th 2024 valuch County council meeting to order uh we will start as always with uh an invocation first and then we'll go right into the Pledge of Allegiance if uh you are interested in having your faith group participate in an invocation please just send an email to k the letter K green bia.gov [Music] we have Angelo par of the Central Florida free thought Community if you would like to stand with me for the invocation you may good morning and thank you chairman Brower council members County Manager County Administration and staff for this opportunity as a resident of Victoria Park in the land it's a true honor to be here today representing the central Florida free thought Community John Quincy Adams our sixth president said if you're actions Inspire others to do more learn more dream more and become more you are a leader we are profoundly grateful to you our leaders for the long hours and often unappreciated time effort and personal sacrifice that comes with your tireless commitment to your constituents as you serve our community we ask that you embrace the spirit of inquiry and reason with the willingness to listen and to focus focus on Building Bridges of understanding embracing our differences as strengths strengths that enrich our community in your stewardship of uchia we ask as you Safeguard our County today that you also remain aware of our responsibility to Generations to come May the mutual love of friends and family and our Collective hopes and dreams inspire you it is through your generous commitment of time creativity and love of alucha County that you make a better and brighter future for all of us I close with a quot quote from Winston Churchill you make a living by what you get you make a Life by what you give thank you Chrissa would you call the role Please Mr Robbins Mr Santiago here Mr Dempsey Mr Johansson here Mr Kent here Mr Reinhardt Mr Brower here we do have a a quorum and I know uh don Dempsey is on his uh way as we speak do we have any public participation requests when I call your name if you would come down down to the podium the podium Rises and Falls so that you can have the microphones uh near you we need that so everybody can hear you and because this is recorded um you will have three minutes to uh speak to us about uh anything that affects the county um there will be a time clock above my head that and on your monitor that will track uh your time first we have Kent Cooper thank you ladies and gentlemen I'd like to speak to the commissioner because we have a seem seems that you need to be um from the normal person point of view as I say it I've been dealing with Will Roberts tax office right here we cannot get I cannot get anything done with him they have a new policy where if you don't get in there by 4:00 they don't do your work they don't do title work they don't do nothing I called um I live way out in the other end of Seville which none of you guys probably ever been there before um there's no public transport so you have to borrow a car to come out uh I was told very rudely on Friday by the lady by the name of of Stephanie Jackson that they refused to do any work after 4:00 they're just trying to finish up I think we need to have those hours stretched out I have been trying to get a hold of Mr Roberts for two and a half weeks he's either been going gone or somebody else is on the phone not been able to catch him not been able to cat him yesterday um also I had some work done and one of the ladies stamped the title on a death certificate sale and I can't take that title anywhere in the State of Florida it's stamped with Bia County stamped with this location so unfortunately I'm stuck spending my money here when I could have got it done so many other places especially Crescent City which I'm a whole lot closer to and it's pman County um I thinks the county needs to have a outside corm or uh commissioned um party to look into all these problems especially that and the zoning here the zoning is another atrocious mess that we've got up there in Northern um Seville donon Springs anything like that up there they're just it's ramshackle you get different answers at different times of the day I've had to hire Mr Bob Foster to handle a eviction case uh that has been going on since little last year I actually was in this office with the hearing uh on the gentleman that owned the property and he tried to buy or get a building permit and unfortunately that has spawn into $100,000 out of my pocket just to fight the zoning here and they still don't have an answer we're in front of a judge still don't have an answer I have to move my business out of vucha County because there is I am on a no Zoning for the county and so unfortunately my business and 17 employees are moving away from bloa County because of this I think the county uh Commissioners need to kind of rein in some of these offices and their policies it's just gone Way Beyond the normality I mean I drove 40 minutes to come down to have a title done and been told at 402 that I could not have it done even though the office was open till 4:30 and they were accepting other work so you know that is the main reason why I'm here today Mr Roberts is a is a um voted in elected official and nobody's reigning him in he is nowhere to be found and so thank you thank you thank you Elizabeth pompy good morning um thank you for this three minutes um my name is Elizabeth pompy and I live in District 2 um at 1891 Halifax Drive um I came here last month about the motocross track and thank you very much for listening to us and moving it from that original site uh but why I'm here again is because I understand that you're looking at another site just two miles away from where this last one was which will still cause the same issues we're still going to have the flooding and everything else that all of us came and spoke about um I have sorry I did type this out and I'm trying I missed lost where I'm at um there's other areas that I understand you you have to look at um 92 to me sounds like the best because there's nobody around there to be affected by the way we will be affected off anywhere on tamoka Farms Road um the biggest issue is the flooding um and I was told there'd be studies uh with the Retention Ponds and and all the stuff that goes into allowing such a thing but it doesn't work Town West is the perfect example they put their studies in they took out the wetlands that back up to my road mind you and put their Retention Ponds in and every time there is a hard rain we have flooding and um so those studies in the Retention Ponds don't work especially when you take out Wetlands um so I I don't know what's on the property north of the landfill but uh I I believe it'll still cause us the same issu so don't waste any more of our tax dollars money looking at a place that isn't appropriate 92 is my opinion but they there you guys know better as far as the landing um I have brought a copy of the tamoka Farms Village local plan because I've talked to a few other people nobody knew what it was I sent a copy to everyone uh so that you were aware of what had was put in place in 2009 for our community to protect an AG cultural way there are generations of people that live out there that have done the farming and that's how this got put into place so just look over it so that you're aware when you're making decisions that do affect our area um I would ask that you know as you guys move forward I know we have to have development our C our state has been inundated but look at it at low impact you don't have to take out every tree that's on a piece of property because a developer wants to and put a retention pond in um as I was getting prepared for today I looked up what was on the agenda and I was a bit concerned by seeing how you want to spend three and a half million dollars to put paved shoulders into Turnbull Bay that money would be used we have flooding everywhere all over the county the land I heard you guys talk about in my area and I'm sure there's many areas those are the only PE places that I'm aware of but let's be smart with our tax thank you thank you Chelsea a pastr and Helper and Hunter all right good morning everyone my name is Chelsea pack I'm a malucha County resident resigning on Halifax Drive I wasn't able to make the last two meetings because of my work and children's schedule but I did learn that you you unanimously voted against the motocross track at the previously proposed location off shuns Road on 415 so thank you for that but I did want to come as Elizabeth previously stated and talk about other proposed locations especially the one north of the dump because as we all know the water still flows South I previously emailed all of you our County Council to share my concerns regarding the track our current flooding issues and asked a number of questions most of you didn't respond but I would like to say thank you to Mr Robbins and Mr Kent for at least acknowledging my email in my correspondence I shared that along with many others I know are not against recreational activities for residents and visitors in this case a motocross track however I am against option number one of a county funded and run track as I do not feel government should be doing business for themselves nor do I feel a public private partnership is appropriate either as far as the use of echo funds on uia.org when reading up on the use of these funds it states the uchia echo program SE seeks to enhance the quality of life of valusa County residents by working to achieve goals over a broad Geographic base I'm interested in what percentage of your constituents do you see utilizing this track you're all talking you are talking for profit and for tourism it doesn't seem to line up with the intent of this program this is an expensive and specialized sport or hobby as far as quality of life what does affect quality of life is flooding of people's homes I have two neighbors that I personally know that are still displaced on Halifax Drive and that hurricane was almost two years ago um one of my elderly neighbors wasn't able to have her work fixed and has lost her insurance and is in Jeopardy of losing her home that's quality of life I'm having difficulty understanding why building a track is a priority when flooding is a huge concern especially with hurricane season very quickly approaching the NOAA the National Weather Service forecasts an 85% chance of an above normal hurricane activity for 2024 17 to 25 total name storms of these 8 to 13 are forecast to become hurricanes including four to seven major hurricanes cat 3 or higher I want to know what valusa county is doing to alleviate any of these hurricane related concerns Beyond regular maintenance or currently undersized ditch infrastructure I know you sent a flooding trifold um in the mail to us twice um and the main thing that it mentions is there or the first thing is protect Wetlands I want to know if vucha county is doing their job and that our County and elected officials are doing what they can and are prepared so is this County prepared for the possible tumultuous storm season ahead of us and people's homes flooding or are we more interested in where to place a motocross track and the profit it may generate thank you thank you John pastr hello I'm John pack Halifax Drive not as prepared as my wife but I'm basically just here to say um this motor cross trck issue close to my home is what got me you know a little frustrated just because we have had some flooding concerns in the neighborhood and to my knowledge and I'd like to know if you guys are aware there was a study done in 2009 that we spent taxpayer money to get the results of the study was geared towards what can we do to improve water quality for this particular area and reduce flooding for people in their homes so at that time approximately a million dollars could have been spent do these five things and people would have gone from the level of service of their homes being flooded to them not being flooded to roads not being overtaken by water in these times of heavy rain since that time that work has never been done it seems like we totally forgot about that study and what I just really can't believe is that we're here we are let's do something in the neighborhood and it's a motocross track that's you know now we're talking it's going to be a little bit closer or whatever to me it doesn't seem like it's a priority and like my wife mentioned you look at Echo what's the E and Echo mean it's environmental so we're saying we've known that there's a waterway in the heart of Port Orange the heart of vucha County that's contaminated and no one's even concerned about it so the study was done how can we improve water quality and keep people from flooding to me I think these Echo funds could be spent on something maybe you can have a joint purpose uh water retention area that's also you know the water quality issue from the study was from a lot of these storm water infrastructure being undersized and under maintained and poorly designed and we've totally forgotten that we've ordered a bunch of studies for other places are we going to follow up on the study and actually do the work that needs to be done if there's Echo money to spent like I say e and Echo is for environmental there's an environmental problem there you know how are people going to have fun and recreate you know when they're worried about their home flooding or still not back in their home or can't even repair their home probably living with mold for years like some of our neighbors um it's just an issue we do need some attention for you know I don't think we should be worrying about Recreation to me it's a cherry on top for an area that people's homes are still flooding there was a lady down the street who broke her ankle during these heavy rains and no one could respond to help her you know why don't we spend some money on on EMS having the ability to help people in these heavy Waters um so I got more to say you'll probably see me again here thanks for what you have done um but we need a little more especially for our area thank [Music] you Daytona Beach police chief Jakari Young good morning distinguished members of the Das my name is Jakari young and I am the chief of police for the city of Daytona Beach I am also a 28-year resident of Valia County I am here to address the disparaging remarks and false statements that were made during the May 21st County council meeting I understand that as elected officials we all have our rights to our personal opinions but what we don't have a right to is creating our own facts so to start from the top it was stated from the Das that we are a special event City with no special events I find that interesting because I'm forced to mandate my officers to work these special events each year from January through August so my cops would beg to differ Staffing is an issue we can't hire cops it's always been that way and it will continue to be that way way also interesting because currently full Staffing for my department is 244 and I'm currently sitting at 236 which means I only have eight vacancies something that I'm very proud of and I would hardly call that a staffing crisis the city is overrun with homelessness homeless individuals drunks and prostitutes that right there is probably the biggest insult of them all while we do have some issues in the city of Daytona Beach it is hardly the crimer ridden Armageddon that was described from this di these issues that exist in Daytona Beach exist in almost every major city throughout this country homelessness is a nationwide problem that we cannot arrest our way out of and I'm extremely proud of the hardworking men and women of the Daytona Beach Police Department that are out there on a daily basis doing their part to make Daytona Beach a safer place to to live work and play and I'm also extremely proud of our city officials who recognize this problem which is why they took the lead on the homeless shelter uh foundation on on the homeless shelter board um for any elected official who wore this uniform and is collecting a pension from the city of Daytona Beach to take that opportunity to drag the city through the mud for political gain is disgraceful and a direct insult to the men and women that accept the challeng challenge of serving this extremely busy City and rapidly growing city on a daily basis I find it comical that his elected official's only real claim to fame is his service in the city of Daytona Beach and now he sits on this dis and pretends to be the resident expert on all things Public Safety and law enforcement related so for any City official to feel uncomfortable driving through the city of Daytona Beach without their police scanner I would simply say you can do do us all a favor and stay out of the city limits of Daytona Beach if that's going to be your attitude your comments were shameful embarrassing and you should be grateful that I only have three minutes thank you Chief uh John Nicholson John Nichol Dayton Beach side I wasn't going to mention this um till car brought it up um I was a little offended when it was made but I understand where he's coming from we have not done enough we could always do more all right with the idea that we don't have any special events anymore uh that is true basically on beach side the city of Daytona Beach does have nine what I call major events when you have an event of 200 people or 2,000 people it's a special event our special events are hundreds of thousands of people all nine of our events are over a 100,000 people a piece I call them major events because they are major they are disruptors I live on beide I get all of them because the hotels are on beide I mentioned it before 12,000 hotels in the Halifax area that's a lot of hotels we are still a tourist area so I'm asking you yes both of them are correct but you really have to watch what you're going to say which is what I really wanted to come up to speak with originally as you know the president was convicted all right for many of us it was a political conviction it's a slippery slope when politicians talk outside of certain Realms when you look at maybe I'm relatively ignorant but I can't find out what he was convicted of it's not against the law for what they call hush maning those non-disclosure are acceptable everywhere is he convicted of that what was he convicted of actually and secondly they're talking about putting him in jail nobody's ever been put in jail for a clerical error so this really is a slippery slope where do we go now I'm a Democrat I have been since I voted but nobody asked me if I want to turn my Democratic party into a socialist party which is basically becoming more and more you've heard of certain words that misdirection projection so what is the Democratic party projecting onto the Democratic party versus what it's projecting onto the Republican Party now I never knew for 40 years what the party was of any of you guys any of the elected officials this year everybody knows because it was made an issue but I don't care whether you're Republican or Democrat I'm asking you to step back whenever you make a decision and do not make them on party lines because the more we get entrenched in a party line the worse we are and the Republican Party unfortunately was divided two years ago it has to heal thank you uh Carissa if you would somebody over there uh just for let the record reflect that district one councilman Don Dempsey is present you're fighting that vicious Delon Springs traffic yes let the pigeons loose [Laughter] now okay that brings us to uh thank you for all that participate we appreciate hearing from the public um takes us to uh item number one approval of the agenda do I have uh a motion or any questions about the agenda motion approve second uh Jake Johansson makes the motion to approve and the second was by Vice chair Kent any comments all in favor say I I any opposed and the uh agenda is approved 6 to Zer does any member uh any council member have an item that uh from the consent agenda that they would like to comment on or pull for a vote Mr Santiago thank you Mr chairman I'd like to for discussion uh item W chairman I make a motion to approve the consent agenda has presented Vice chair Kent makes a motion to uh approve the entire agenda is there a second second by councilman Santiago when don't we vote on that and then we'll come back to U item W for your for comment um is there any other comments all in favor of approving the consent agenda please say I I any opposed and the agenda is approved 6 to Zer which takes us to item W thank yes sir thank you Mr chairman um I I just wanted to kind of voice more of a staff did the work that they required but more voice more of a disappointment and concern how governments um buying land from each other like this you know this is for a uh for a Wastewater uh Improvement in that area that's going that serves a public purpose for all including the school board um we're buying this property for the Public's purposes we're buying uh a property from the school board for $65,000 to do enhancements for the public good there I'm just not a fan if it's a public purpose that can be established for the good of all I don't I voted for it but I don't think I think we need to set the tone very differently and have conversations as we progress as a county and our other governing bodies that that we should work together better and not just shifting tax pay her dollars U from from area to area so just not happy about it and I hope that we can change the trend um with us leading the charge and others participating I get it it has to happen that way but just not a fan of why we're having not to buy land for a public purpose for storm water excuse me Wastewater improvements that will serve all in that area including the school thank you Mr chairman councilman Johansson I I'm in in um in policy I I concur with that I I like at the end of the day um it it's our tax dollar being used to spend on schools it's it's it's a dollar bill leave in my pocket it goes to the school it's a dollar bill that goes to the county it's a dollar bill in my case it goes to the city it's a dollar bill that goes to Hospital District yet we're we're moving money the the problem we have is some of our funds are restricted right and and so uh we saw earlier in the year the school board came up and asked us for $450,000 I think for for uh um police and and it's not us it's the taxpayer it's the same damn dollar so why can't we figure it out and and be more efficient um I'd like to get there that's probably something we can work on in the next couple years um U but I I know in some cases it just can't happen and and that's unfortunate because at the end of the day it probably cost the the taxpayer more money to shift that money around to make stuff happen so if if we can um instead of uh instead of saying no if we can get together and have staffs work it out and try to figure out um I don't I don't want to call them if I was home I'd call it a drug dealer but a a a a deal to make things work that I'm I'm all about making that happen David thank you for bringing it up Vice chair Kent thank you chairman and council member Santiago I too want to Echo and just say thank you for for bringing that comment up because this is the same school board School District who after seven of us told them you have a larger budget than we do you're coming to us asking for us to pay your bills they then try to come and attack me and our attorney Mr Dyer in instead of reaching out an olive branch and saying hey you know maybe we can work together instead they try to go personal and their their claims were wildly outrageous inaccurate and inappropriate so that's what I saw whenever we told them hey this is your bill you should pay your bill just like we are going to pay our bill and I'll just remind everybody I asked Mr rectenwald at that meeting how much money does the school district give us for all of the security in all of our cour houses across fuchia County and the answer was zero and I asked why and he said because sir it's not their responsibility and then I asked Mr Dyer who sole responsibility is it per state statute to provide security in the school system Mr Dyer accurately said it's the school district's responsibility so I hear exactly what you're saying we do need to have a better working relationship but not because the attack came at me because I told them a word they didn't like which was no but if the attack had come to any of you I feel like if the attack was against you or the chair or any of us then it was an attack on all of us so I just bring that up just to refresh everybody's memory about where they went last November thank you thank you yeah this this is a PO policy decision I'm glad that you two are here but it's I don't know what you could say at this point you're going to make it work because we approved it and um it's needed you've heard the opinion of I think it's probably the majority opinion of the council that the way the funding is it's it um it's less than ideal we're also hearing that right now about security uh guard that the the entire council is being attacked that there was a horrible accident um for crossing guards at a school and we're being blamed for not hiring enough U uh crossing guards and I believe that is a function of the uh of the sheriff's department the school board and the committee that makes those decisions I think we would all support that we want safety for the kids we want clean water for our schools too but we we do need to work better with a school board so um thank you guys for coming up that takes us to um uh item number three uh discussion and Direction on Towing fees and Janine Jennings thank you good morning Janine Jennings Director of Business Services um what we're asking for today is just some direction on where to go with Towing rates um you know we started working on this probably the first time we had a request from I believe it was Mr Dempsey almost 6 months ago and began pulling rates and looking at what everybody had um and I understand that maybe some of the rates have changed since we originally started pulling the numbers and we'll be happy to reevaluate evaluate any of those but since that time um we have met with the sheriff's department several times um actually with um Sheriff Chitwood he was actually at one of the meetings um and discussed the direction we want to go with at least non-consensual Towing because the ordinance touches both trespass Towing and non-consensual Towing um the two things were discussed one is that on the non-consensual that even if we made changes to non-consensual that we would um not make any changes to their contract because they're in the middle of a non-consensual uh Towing contract right now until 20125 when that contract expires um the second one is after looking at what um we had provided as far as all the rates that we had at that time um the decision was made amongst the groups to recommend an average so we wouldn't go to the highest rate we wouldn't go to the lowest rate we would look at an average that wouldn't have the greatest impact on uh people who are having their vehicles towed I guess I need to figure out how to get to the next slide so these are the um averages based on each classification of vehicle and the recommended and as I mentioned um we know that um as of even today a lot of the numbers are still changing but at the time of that we were looking at this these were the rates that we were able to pull and like I said we're looking at an average this average is out to be about a 22% increase across the board on our rates um and kind of puts us right in the middle we're not the highest I know Flagler is um probably I think they're 60% higher than we are right now um but we would not be the lowest either so um all we're looking for today is um some direction of uh where you would like us to go as far as rates thank you uh councilman Santiago thank you I have questions well maybe one question can you I'll try and if you can maybe someone else can I would like for my purposes and maybe others a a a simple break down of non-con uh consequential towing or not and trespass Towing and give me scenarios on how that plays who is the person use me as the example that's fine my C trespass Towing would be that um you go to the illusive grape and you park in the parking lot behind that has uh no parking and it has a toe cup tow truck and it's no trespass and you park in there and they call to have you tow that would be a trespass or you go or restaurant you park somewhere that you're not supposed to go that has that and a toe company then can comp pick your car that's called a trespass toe so that is a is that a private contract property owner and non-consensual is when you involve law enforcement so if you have a DUI or a car accident or something that would require law enforcement that would be a non-consensual toe and so our or if I may continue for pleas so our ordinances regulate the fee that can be assessed to those individuals in those trespass scenarios correct correct and that's there's no real Revenue to us everything is a pass through and can you give me the history someone give me the history of why that fee or the the um approval of the fee was put in place I know that's a surprise question turn that to Legal Russ Brown Deputy County attorney say it again sir what I would say what's the public intent of allowing counties to uh um adopt ordinances to control those fees well I I think the intent is to ensure that there's a reasonable Fair rate and the market is somewhat govern so it doesn't get exorbitant I mean I'm I don't know that uh for a fact but so there's some regulation to the industry the the statute puts the county Commissions in that role okay um a follow-up question on the uh the one that you said it's the Sheriff's Office one what's that titled again non-consensual toe and that's currently under negotiations for contract rals no that is they have a contract in place and when uh tow companies have bid on non-consensual Towing um they are using the non-consensual rates that are provided they can't go above that they could go below it they can't go above that rate when they're bidding and um but there's some other things in there that are not in here that that they also can bid on when they make the evaluation so at this point they do not want to change that contract um until it comes up for renew well it's not it could either be renewed but they're going to kill it at the end of 20 at the end of the term in 2025 and rebid it with any new rates that we put out what do you mean they're going to kill it I mean it ends it's the first three-year term of the contract ends in 2025 they're not going and that has optional renewals they're going to put it back out to bid at the end of the first three-year term Sheriff's the sheriff's department is and that non-consequential uh conse I can't even say the word consensual tow rate is capped at 375 currently in vola is that correct uh depends on the vehicle it's at 125 for a class A oh okay I see that C's and okay I see that okay um and in our ordinance everything is the same trespass Tow and non-consensual towing rates are the same um I think this may be my last question what how did we go about obtaining the rates for other counties um robt made a lot of phone calls and we pulled it off their websites and their ordinances but like I said um you know even Flagler since we did Flagler the first time we happened to know through the public participation that Flagler had changed theirs and we were able before it was even published able to call them and get the Flagler so but I think since then some other entities might have made some changes we just don't know which ones they are right at this time sorry another question popped in my head who monitors compliance to our ordinance here do we have an area where constituents can complain and and say in other words if we do do that what information do you have to share about the experience I will tell you um the legislature this year passed a lot of um rules now of what we have to put out on our website of who do you call and who do you contact what are your rights as far as Towing and we are creating a web page but as far as non-consensual um it's the sheriff's department will do spot checks and monitor um Do Spot checks on the invoices and make sure that things are right but they have the administrative Duty for non-consensual toe for trespassing toe nobody we don't have any data to see how our con I can I mean I know that the sheriff's department has told me they have 1,450 non-consensual toes a year I could not tell you what the trespass toe would be thank you thank you Mr chair I I'll wait for the public and are my colleagues yeah it's good questions good discussion before I move on let's let's keep it at questions for right now I've got a whole list of almost all of us that want to speak um this is just for questioning um but I think your questions kind of reflect the uneasiness that perhaps the council feels I don't know we're going to see it because it kind of feels like we're getting involved in telling private business what they can what they can charge I think the the remarks that the uh attorney made gives it well I'm going to stop because this is all questions um I'll say it later um councilman Dempsey um yeah could you tell me the last time valua changed their existing rates or updated them 2002 okay so it's been 22 years since okay and it looks like that's the far right call or far left column right in the red the far left is what Belia county is at the far right is the recommended and then the one next to it is what we at that time we had is all the averages okay so the far left in red were the rates established 22 years ago correct correct which seems like it's consistent with a lot of Lake County seminal County St John's and orange do we know the last time they updated or do we know the last time they set their rates we comparing I think everybody I what I'm hearing is everybody's looking at it right now so um there may be some that have just recently that haven't made it into mun code yet that have changed so so is it fair to say that as far as we know the comparable rates that you put up here Lake County seminal County St John's County Orange counties in bravard County could all be rates that were set 20 years ago as well could not I couldn't say that for definitively the only rate that we're looking at that we know is recently been adjusted is flag or okay and it's fair to say in the last 20 years insurance has gone up exponentially for these companies gas prices have gone up as well as labor costs and God knows what else expenses they Ur they incur okay have you checked into Marian County no where that I believe Maran County just had a recent adjust or put patka okay I'm hearing these voices in my head patka um have we checked with patka to see what their new rates are yeah we really try to stick within the area that we typically do you know around this area I mean I you know one point we did look at you know Miami and we were kind of told let's don't look at Miami let's stick to the the area around here so we tried to stick to the immediate area but I mean we could we could do any of that so um but flag was done within the last year right they were done very recently and it wouldn't why isn't staff recommending that we go along with Flagler right we are we met when we will do whatever you want to do I'm just telling you we also met with the sheriff because the non-consensual really except for the trespass the non-consensual is managed uh through the Sheriff's department and when the sheriff looked at this he was really trying to make it not such a more of a gradual and not such a drastic impact on Towing um but I can also tell you they've been very clear and whatever you decide you want to do they'll comply with okay all right thank you very much thank you uh councilman Johansson thank you thank you sir um council member Dy you we we spend every year go to roll back go to roll back keep the taxes down this is the first thing that doesn't get touched 22 years go by and now we got to double it in price to make it right nobody wants to do that either um this this is kind of a it's kind of an indicator of what what gradual increases can benefit you uh uh from um but but we're not doing that um Janine so so trespass toe is negotiated between private business partner or or them and private business I would assume so so so and and from what I'm seeing I'm I'm looking at the the book that I was given but it it appears to be the same as what what you gave and and right now our rate by by and large mimics the the private rate so 25 for class A well when I say that we set the rate the maximum rate for trespass toe is in our our Towing ordinance so so they still have to back to their question what why why do we do that so people don't get fleed FL yeah it's a state law it's been put in uh make the county have to be the uh overseer to ensure because remember what happens people lose possession of their vehicle right and sometimes these are people that can barely make it as it is right and so then they have to go pay uh to go get their vehicle back it's got by the way not just the towing the storage the mileage so when you look at these rates uh uh that's just a starting point based on then other factors that come into play size of the vehicle Etc so uh so that's why the the state uh uh makes sure that there's some sort of Regulation and it is a maximum so it's not necessarily what uh people are paying but these as much as that can be charged and then like in our case it's a competitive bid uh that's laid in there so and then there's terms I've seen some of the emails discuss about when they have to show up and what they have to do well that's contractual as far as what they've agreed to do in order to be on a certain list whether it's us the Department of Transportation or other things but they've bid on that and they've agreed to those terms and that pricing so and that's what like the sheriff would like to maintain this contract because it is it's in place to 2025 and those rates were set and those conditions were set they've been on it and that's uh just like we would do with contractors of all the things we do so so you have that but what within that you had this overarching uh ordinance that said well you can't go above this particular amount got it so all the all the Tres trespass toes and voluntary toes I should say whether it's on private property or it's connected by the sheriff that's subject to the rate established by this Council legislature did that they actually went a step further this past legislative session and we we need to bring an ordinance back to you at the next meeting we're your staff now has to the council has established a process to investigate complaints by people that think the rates aren't being followed and we have to have a process to enforce that so the state is definitely put County Commissions in a role and you know po leadership role on this issue the only I can only imagine the the policy reason why is because it is the nature of it is involuntary and the risks that are involved I would say the trespass toes are voluntary okay I I would say yeah I'll I'll wait till debate my point is I get an accident it's not voluntary I choose to park in a well my point trespass area that's voluntary the my point is the legislator has put you in a position where you have to set with the maximum rate is it's not something that you're doing on your own initiative got it thanks that's all I have sir thank you uh I'm going to keep up with that line of questioning um George you're probably the best to to answer these first couple of questions youve said that um these were well let me go stick with the contract first who writes the contract does the county or is it a negotiation with the tow truck operators well in all of our cases when we do um work with vendors uh we have uh we write the contract often uh depending on the area we're in whether it's construction or it or these various areas we we get help in experts in writing contracts but we write the we write the the contracts some cases a big goes out with a an outline of a contract uh and then we negotiate terms within that uh if they are the successful um bidder so um basically we write the contract they agree to it okay you also mentioned that this was a a pass through so are we uh are we billing and do we get the uh do we get reimbursed or do a lot of time does sometimes the uh the person that got towed not pay my understanding from the sheriff's department is that they have a non-consensual toe they collect the fees they pay the county back a um administrative fee back to the Sheriff's Department for managing the contract but the rest of it they do not get invoices they do not get all the invoices they have the opportunity to check invoices and and um audit when necessary but when if if my toe was um was in an accident and it was towed um that toe bill would come to me it would not go to the Sheriff's Department okay do you have any idea if they're paid and if they're not paid are we responsible um as as far as I know from there they have not had any situations where someone hasn't been that they've been involved in a dispute of payment okay George you mentioned some of the other requirements time requirements if they go to a highway accident or whatever that is um those requirements are negotiated with the tow truck operators well they're part of the set forth in the contract typically these things evolve over years of experience you know if you're an officer you don't want to be waiting out there too long so I'm sure there's some sort of time require enement uh they have to get there um uh but again you have bar contract you have you may have the cities you have uh the Department of Transportation all these other agencies also have contracts uh but again you we're talking also here is overarching ordinance uh not individual contracts okay can I but yes clarify one thing I just got a message from the sheriff's department if they do not pay their invoice their car is kept so that is why we don't get involved in it yes okay that's a pretty good motivator um and I think that's one of the reasons also because that's a pretty tough bar so at the end of the day you know um why it's regulated by the state who wants us to regulate because it kind of go that kind of goes to uh attorney Brown's comment too that this keeps it um it gives us a responsibility of trying to make sure the Public's not fleeced to use your word uh attorney Brown and Sir the other thing I was going to say is that so the county or if M municipality is supposed to set the maximum rates and if they choose not to set the maximum rat at least under the new statute that's not in effect yet the governor hasn't signed I think as of yesterday unless I'm wrong about okay correct me on that then the default to the Florida Highway patrols tow raides has it also been 22 years since these contracts have been negotiated no not for the sheriff's department this is a three this is it's usually a five-year contract and they're getting ready to go into three year three in 2025 where they have the option of either going back out to bed or renewing and they are going to go back out to bed what about contract they have directly with the county the only they don't have any contracts with the the only contract we have for towing is Towing for the fleet department and that is completely separate from this how how many no no the public will have uh time to speak when the council is is done when I look at this list there's all kinds of feeds so are they there's a general fee and then 20 other fees do you have any idea how many of those fees are added on no I don't each time okay maybe they will be able to speak to that okay thank you uh Vice chair Kent thank thank you chairman um and I think where you were going with your question is really the main the main question that I have but before I get to that I I just want to thank Miss Jennings and and your your team for putting this information together and Mr Johansson touched on a piece I think that hits a nerve with me which is 22 years goes by and everyone knows I am for small incremental increases possibly yearly or every other year not to get a a hammer on you like this but um you know we've we've had these small businesses come and talk to us for months and they've been screaming for help one of the things I love about the small business is that I think Mo many of them are like generational you know they've been from one from you know grandparents to parents to children now running them and and I like that but my question is this does the county and the chairman like I said I think he was he was going with this I don't know that I heard it clearly does the county get a piece of the pie I the only piece of the ma'am I'm I'm sorry I'm not goingon to do the Chairman's job please refrain until it's not going to help your case does the county does the county get a piece of the action a piece of the pie with with these with these rates not that the only piece of it that that comes back is like I said in the ones that have a non-consensual toe contract with the sheriff there is um there is a line item that comes back to the Sheriff's Department for every toe so every toe the sheriff's department I think it's $100 of that I think goes back to the Sheriff's Department I could be wrong this is their contract but um I would say that would be the what what I know that comes back other than that I I'm not aware of any of the trespass yeah tow money that comes back to us and I appreciate the the transparency and honesty and and maybe um one of the providers when they get up with their their time to speak they'll answer that question and staff can confirm or deny I'm not sure um but what's interesting to me also is you know looking at vucha County's rates like look at Valia and Bard is an outlier of being on the low end and then I look at flagor and Lake being an outlier on the high end so I'm appreciative that you you gave us some some comparisons uh to look at but um Council I I want to of course hear from the rest of you with your thoughts and then of course from the small business owners uh to hear why why they think um we should go as high as we're possibly looking at thanks councilman Santiago thank you Mr chairman I'm curious you may or may not know the answer to this but I want to ask it if you don't know it's okay okay because I Googled it but do you know what the cost of a AA membership is no idea not a member no no i' pay cash um triaa toes people in case they get stuck into a destination to a motor V to a service area something like that do you know what triaa pay pay the towing companies for those toes no idea okay thank you I'm done I hopefully find out okay thank you um no more questions so we'll have debate Council would you like to hear from the uh public first okay let's do that and I will just call you in the order that they were given to me um Helen Taylor uh my name is Helen Taylor I am the owner of Buddy Stone from Daytona Beach before I forget let me address the triaa question the answer is triaa negotiates with their Toe Companies the rate they pay them okay I am not a AAA provider I have been in the past I don't do it because they were paying me20 $3 for a five mile toe okay it's negotiable there are other companies that were getting more like 35 which is not much when you're talking about Fuel and insurance the cost of the truck triaa makes it in volume and it's it's great for the consumer I can't complain 100 I might be wrong 150ish for the Plus Membership now it's great but for the Toe Companies it sinks and that's one of the reasons we most of us do not do AAA okay I'm here today to ask you to please give us a raise increase as you're aware 22 years um my husband used to say to me anybody can get a tow truck that's a lot to hold on to and he's right with the cost of the insurance going up and the employment and the fuel I mean we had a big fuel increase while while back I mean I was paying years ago $2 a gallon I'm up to $5 a gallon now for diesel okay um I don't think it's unreasonable for us to ask for us to be increased to the Flagler rates Flagler is our sister sister County and I think that's what we should get I'm a daytonian for 20 65 years I'm very proud of that and a woman-owned business but I've had to tighten my belt to K stay in business because of these rates the rates we're asking for are the non-consensual toes not the county because that's a contract not the city because that's a contract FHP is not a contract we apply and we are accepted because of the guidelines and they do not set the rates they are based on the county rates the max of the county rates so that we I have a if I have a company in bla County and I get approved for FHP they go to the county rates and say okay the max you can charge is this amount they regulate in that if I charge more they'll keep me off but that's the only way they regulate the the consens the non-consensual toes the trespassing toes I'm sorry is is a different story altoe we are only asking for the for the non-consensual toes and they have a right FHP has a right to clear that road that's why they are so picky about who they allow onto their onto their uh agenda and they come and inspect us once a year they require certain equipment they require certain drivers am I up yeah oh sorry three minutes flies okay it does fly but thank you very much Mark mcnamer Mr chairman can I ask a question I want to ask you a question councilman San dieo um is there is there someone and I don't know how the council the chairman would feel about this is there someone within their group that we could designate I guess the expert that that we can ask questions to uh from the Private Industry I don't want to ask them the same question of every person but if I don't know if they have an assigned person if they do okay that way we can ask questions you know from the private sector at least from one person I guess I'll have Glen go L okay perfect thank you Mr chairman Mark good morning I'm Mark mcnamer with a representing Daytona reer formerly John Hall Chevrolet with Glenn Richie our uh we've proudly been serving the community 39 years and I'm a resident of the county for 57 years our purpose today is to address our Towing rates and uh I believe the numbers that you have gotten are wrong I believe we are being misunderstood about the tow rates between trespass Towing and law enforcement Towing which is non-consensual so non law enforcement is pretty much FHP Florida Highway Patrol the sheriff does have a contract but that contract is just for the sheriff and it's with one company and that's not what we're here here for so I'd like to try and clear up this uh misunderstanding trustpass Towing is a tow requested by an owner of a business or a property for a vehicle that has been abandoned or not permitted to be on that property these toes can be performed with a basic tow truck a basic driver minimal insurance no lot requirement no set hours and 99% of those cars or vehicles are paid and P paid and picked up whereas law enforcement toes which is non-consensual for Highway Patrol approximately 63% of vehicles are picked up 37 are left behind and never paid for we have specific equipment that were required and trucks extremely expensive Insurance such as work comp cargo liability garagee keeper Etc large storage impounds and requirements that mandate us to have at least 250 vehicle spots we also have to have have security 24 lights cameras fencing stuff like that emergency Readiness 247 365 a year including for hurricanes flooding holidays with train drivers and commercial driver's license hopefully this explains the difference between the trespass and the law enforcement we are not seeking an increase for trustpass towing it can stay where it's at we are asking for an alignment with the rates established by Flagler County for law enforcement Towing which is FHP giving its proximity in similar population to our County any questions we'll we're going to hold those to the end um thank you for your time Amanda baloa hello thank you for hearing us out today um to provide some clarity we are not asking for trespass if you could just pull that mic down a little tall no you're good um I just wanted to provide some clarity we're not asking for the trespass Towing that's kind of why I was asking if I could speak in conjunction with Miss Janine we are not asking about trespass Towing whatsoever we are also not talking about the individual contract with the sheriff's department as much as I love Chitwood there was no reason to get him involved that's not what we're asking about so there just some misinformation or at least SL confusion um uh we're pleased to see that we were on the agenda for the rate change and we appreciate your time in that um we've been unable to secure a meeting to speak with you guys about this and I feel like a lot of these um misconceptions probably could have been hammered out a lot quicker um unfortunately some of these rates are in accurate as Miss Janine stated maybe they've changed since uh two of those counties are not correct it also did not include putam County um our five neighboring counties is Bard putam Lake Flagler and seol um obviously that would weigh the average very greatly especially seeing that putham is one of the highest in the area so those numbers are inaccurate based on that alone I don't think you should be able to pass that because the numbers are literally wrong um so the math is inaccurate um I'm sure I don't need to tell you guys everything has increased um labor rates have increased you know our trucks are through the roof um it's just it's been a very long time and I apologize I've gotten off uh Focus because I wanted to answer those questions um anyway our proposed structure rate is unacceptable um it's not accurate it's not fair um if there was anything you can do to help we appreciate it if you have any questions I'm happy to answer thank you I think we're going to hold questions till the for for Glenn at the end okay um John Rogers chairman Commissioners thank you um staff thank you I know it takes a lot to put this package together um you guys just dealt with the insurance with the after the Hurricanes we've been dealing with it for 10 years um you know uh4 and $500,000 a year to uh Ure its Fleet um 247 365 if a semi goes over on I4 right now or 95 right now the road shut down calling one of us we got to respond with with a truck called the Rotator which is over a million dollars and a 50 ton which is 7 700,000 about the cost of your fire engines the only thing is we only have five to seven years to pay for them not like a house you got a 30 mortgage we got you know seven years to pay for a million doll piece of equipment we got to staff it we got to be ready 2 247 when the roads are shut down and you guys are in traffic you don't want to be in traffic it costs Commerce a lot of money and our job is to get there you know uh the manager right we we we we have a contract with the sheriff has nothing to do with what we're talking about however um we're talking about the do and the FHP and and the requirements that they have uh and you guys said it he's 100% right if you guys didn't set it public would get fleeced um you guys have to uh put the board together to investigate over charging you know some some counties are using their code enforcement but that's your next meeting we're here because we desperately need an increase and we're asking this board the policy makers to adopt the Flagler County rate Flagler County did say sat down with the towers Pam County sat down with the towers the staff did not the board members and they went down line item by line item by line item by line item and hashed it out and they came to that price we are asking you guys to do the same thing we didn't have a chance to go line item by line item with your staff we tried you guys heard me we asked for a meeting we tried Flagler did putam did putham is much higher than Flagler so we would asked the policy board to adopt the Flagler County rate thank you John Nicholson johnon dayona be side I don't have a dog in the fight can't hear you can thank you I don't have a dog in the fight um but it's something that has come up before and will come again again uh I think they've answered the question whether there a contract or not whether they're Bound by a contract and they can't get a raise whether they're not by Bound by a contract and they can get a raise if that's solved that they can get a raise they should get a raise because in the past you've had not only this group and other groups 20 years 17 years 15 years those are too long okay we're not accustomed to the inflation that we've had the last two or three years it's unusual but it does happen and they got caught in it and we have to rectify it they shouldn't lose their businesses they shouldn't want for anything because inflation came and crippled them all right if it if they could get a raise we should give it to them to make them whole but I'm asking you and the reason why I'm up here is to hit home again the fact we should not allow anything to go 10 15 20 30 years without a review now I think I've convinced one person uh Mr Kent that it should be done on a regular basis every year or two is too often it's very time coning on the staff but we should have every contract listed on a hard drive and then when it comes to five years it pops up let's take a look at it because we lost the half Petty sales tax because we went 17 years without increasing a tax we needed that half penny sales tax for our infrastructure and we lost it okay I'm asking you to go through everything that we have in our documents and anything over five years let's take a look at you may not want to change it but at least look at it and make sure that nothing goes too long because every year they're losing money if we don't update it so I'm asking you to ask staff to look at what we have in contracts and to update all of them and none of them should be more than five years out of date thank you thank you the last uh speaker before he comes up uh Glenn you can start walking this way Glenn Lando the uh councilman Santiago has asked can we uh ask questions that's a change of our rules I'm not opposed to it I but I want to ask the council if anybody is opposed to that we have a rule that we don't ask questions to speakers because of time and um although the county staff often deals with issues in the back of the room after they're done do anybody opposed to it chairman no I just want to I just if you don't mind I just want to publicly say I'm not opposed to it I actually like the idea I just don't want this to become a part of our rules that's why I'm saying this because it's kind of dangerous I I wanted to publicly say that I I'm okay with it now but it doesn't mean I'm going to be okay with it if it happens again okay I think it's appropriate today Mr chair if I can add to that I think it's attorney is good okay I just want to add to that on a casee by case basis you know we we consider it um I think it warranted and it saves us time to and it gives it I think I'm almost kind of thinking about it almost like a land use issue so it gives the applicant not an applicant but Mr chair yes sir can I just just add because I want to avoid some confusion on it so your staff Miss Jennings walked through and did a survey of rates with your neighboring counties um we we're dealing with a state law that we're waiting for the governor to sign we're assume he'll sign it that takes effect July one that requires us your your county staff subject to whatever you decide have a process for investigating complaints for towers that don't are not charging the right rate um part of the new law that Mr Brown mentioned is adding language um that if you don't set a maximum rate you default to uh basically FHP rate so basically there's going to be a rate maximum set question is whether you set it or would you defer to the FHP so you have a list of toning rates with a variety of fees everyone's a little see some variation in them but uh two terms you see a lot the top two you can't see on the sheet but it's the non-consensual toe and the trespass toe that does not distinguish between a sheriff directed toe versus a private property owner but the sheriff's rate even though he has got a process for selecting towers and has a contract the sheriff will be subject to to your maximum rate now he's got contracts that have to expire to have rates that are identical to your current ones eventually they expire in 2025 I believe August of 2025 whatever you do on rates will then apply to the sheriff so your staff's met with the Sheriff's Office they're agreeable understand that that whatever you decide today they would also be subject to so everyone is subject to it in Bia County um except for on the state highways right okay uh Glenn if you would stick to the three minutes to begin with and then we'll have some questions for you thank you I Glenn landow Brier Stone Service 722 North SE gry Street Daytona Beach I'd like to take you know touch on some of the questions and confusion that appears the council has first you have to understand these rates only cover Florida Highway Patrol and trustpass to most of the cities have their own record service agreements where the tower pays for the right to provide service the valuch county sheriffs is the same way they bid their contract out the tower pay the tower that pays the most back to the agency has exclusive rights back in the day it was called a franchise fee I'm not sure what term they use today to skirt around Florida statute 125047 the six red tab in your book so their Agreements are not affected unless they amend those agreements or rebid them the the misrepresentation on the spreadsheet which is in your yellow tab I mean I'm looking at this here seminal countyy is incorrect St John's County is going up for an increase Bard's Incorrect and Orange County's incorrect they were updated in 22 23 and 2008 uh the seminal and orange they've all dropped the 10 Mile free along with a bunch of other ones uh the cost of living increase as I've indicated spoke other times in last 22 years is 58.6% of your orange and purple tabs in your book we're being offered 12% on our class a 90% of our work is Class A work and you know we all know trespass tone is the black ey of the industry if if District 2 is here he can probably come in the numbers I believe you got from the sheriff they're probably low because those are the Rogue companies that are not turning them in I mean Mark spoke about trespass to most of the complaints come from trespass towen they're unregulated companies they don't care they don't own their properties they can run across that bridge and grab two to three cars in a time I can do one law enforcement call they don't have the freedom you know we don't have the freedom they do to only work when they want our offices have to be staffed we're on call 24 hours a day seven days a week whether it's a holiday a hurricane rain shine flooding we have to be out there we have to respond you know our our sister counties are flord in North poam Lake seal and Bard they were the ones that should have been used and every one of their rates are higher that's why we ask that you know adopt them but as far as trustpass to freeze it do not increase it you're giving them a license to steal you know that make it more stringent you know they need to be locked down to no increases you can see seminal County did it seminal countyy is enforcing it I mean all those little red tabs in your book that were provided to you that's the laws we have to follow these 44 Pages here are what our laws are going to change to July 1st that we still have to amend thank you for your time thank you uh councilman Santiago thank you Mr chairman thank you Glenn for being the one to take the questions if felt it was uh appropriate to get questioning of your your expertise and thank you John for being here I have a lot of respect for you too I want you to know that um as I go through these questions it's it's um it's a part of balancing right we have a role to play here to also make sure we watch for the constituents to make sure they're not being gouch and I'm not accusing that that's one of the preface my questions um I think there's some confusion at least in my part the scenario that John explained a few minutes ago when he gets that call on the highway it's blocked and you got to bring out all these what category does that fall under that's under your non-consensual rate which is your Highway Patrol most of our cities and counties they all have their own agreements and contracts so they're not even going to be affected unless they adopt these rates but highway patrol is our main concern that's you know they rotate they use different companies and we have to be there we have to close those roads so we the county rate does not apply to that they they apply to Florida Highway Patrol yes oh so not the county rate the county rate yes applies to it okay so then that sorry okay so that if the change that you're all asking us to do today would apply in that category yes correct Florida High Patrol and you're asking us to not touch the trespass toe side of things my personal opinion and probably everyone that runs a legitimate toe and Company freeze non-consensual toe that's where the complaints come from those people are going to get paid I mean they go over the bridge they grab these cars and they're holding them hostage for the people they don't you increase that rate for them it's a win for them all right let me give you another scenario um Sheriff's Office pulls me over and the deputy decides this car is getting tote is if we change this rate today would that rate affect that scen if they amend their contract which usually have a clause in there they can mend it annually with the same increase so if it was a 20% increase increase they can ask for a 20% increase from the tower to pay them so basically they're under contract any of the cities that are under contract they're not automatically going to go up the only rate I'm with you I'm with you on the contract side but the rate would apply to that potentially only if they amend it do a new contract which Florida statute changed back in I don't know 2022 Florida statute 125047 that says they can't accept money anymore so 25% you talking about the Sheriff's Office all of them all cities going to be my next question but in in essence it it would in July as we heard July 2025 that contract's up potential for Renewal if they depending on how they renew it if they go back to rotation like they used to we don't know and I think we heard earlier today to that the I think the Sheriff's Office receives some monies back from you all can you give us some insight on that well the towing companies that do the work for the sheriff's department I think there's three zones now three companies doing it and they all pay back and I don't know what the number is I've heard anywhere's from1 to $130 a toe so I I don't know what the exact numbers are any of your colleagues here do any of that work uh Amanda Wood and John Wood what's the number 11777 113 you said okay so so for every time the Sheriff's Office the sheriff's deputy calls towing company to tow the sheriff's office gets $117 well it goes to the Sheriff's Office from what I understand pass through okay I'll ask that question separately sorry I don't want to engage in in doll B so I'll get clarification from our staff um so if it if if they get 117 and the cap 125 is that's what it is now okay now I'm even more confused I agree wait let please let Glenn answer so the cap is 125 and you got to give the Sheriff's Office $117 correct it's it's that's why you know it's a tax most of these laws that you see here in these little red tabs I was involved in in writing with them and that was one of the reasons why we did Florida statute 125047 and yet puchia county is probably the only County out of the 67 counties now that is still and I'm going to use a term that I use through legislator it's an extortion fee against the towing companies okay thank you for that answer um if I can get staff up Mr chair yes which one well maybe if she and she's deferred to someone else you don't have to leave can you bring some clarification to this 117 that they're saying they pay back it's an administrative fee but just you know when what I understand is most of the towing bills that they're getting that have a lot of other things added into it so it's not $25 bill typically for non-consensual towing that the sheriff is pro that the sheriff is doing it could run up to five or 600700 and so 117 for the owner of the vehicle for the owner of the vehicle and I figured there were other fees I I assume that um there was a statement made also that that money reverts back to the county from the Sheriff's Office invoiced by the sheriff and it comes back to the sheriff now if it goes into a sheriff's account but I mean as far as as I know it goes back to the Sheriff's Department the sheriff's money is is all in it goes to the sheriff who then has it uh does flow to us and then goes right back to the sheriff because we see those numbers and Ryan's going to come and talk about it we anticipate because we have a lot of history and then they get re-budget right back to the to the sheriff yeah the only reason I'm up here is because George said I would but he he has it nailed appropriately the amount of money that the sheriff receives from The Toe Companies uh pursuant to statute all fees for service that the sheriff uh charges whether it's the City of Deltona contract or toe contract or whatever it is all those fees for service are remitted back to the county we have those revenues budgeted in the sheriff's fund as a revenue source to offset how much his budget is so we pre-plan how much tow fees will be for funding the sheriff's budget so the money does bounce around but ultimately it's used by the Sheriff's Office okay um I think I have something else Mr chair back to Glenn thank you I know I threw the uh the com question about Triple A and all say and I knew the rate was was going to be low go to the mic please that AAA is all you know it's all different ball game and those rates now what they're paying the tower are considerably higher than what you know Helen said uh you know a lot of these issues could have been resolved if we sat down with staff like we did in 98 and 2002 I mean there's just been a lot of changes and and the biggest confusion again is difference between trespass to and non-consensual we originally did these ordinances even through you know 71507 through legislature we didn't break them apart now we all have the opportunity to break them apart and if you go back and look and review some of these cities seminal County our sister city they have two different rates and trespass Towing is considerably less no mileage no nothing I mean it's just flat rate don't even give them the gate fees if they're going to be out there grabbing those cars and I mean we all do it we we have to but it's the black obire industry and we don't make that our goals yeah no I I get it let me let me just stop here hopefully one last question if I get called for a tow well Sheriff's Office goes to tow my vehicle and I don't know if you have a contract with the Sheriff's Office well maybe and based on your knowledge what would that cost be to me an average I don't have to hold you to the exact number for that vehicle to stay there one day you pick up my vehicle here in D land and it goes to your yard for one day what is that average toll cost for me basically if it's depending on how many miles you'd have 125 you'd have mileage if it was over the mileage and then you'd have one day storage that basically well if it comes in storage goes by calendar day so if it came in on Tuesday and you picked it up on Wednesday you possibly would have two days storage if it was over so many hours do what average per day St $25 20 $20 a day $40 so you'd have 40 1257 160 I think one for some reason I know through my office through some of my contracts most of them are 18925 it was towed one day and picked up the next no other fees that's all you'd have tow storage so under that scenario I know that's a very basic scenario but under that scenario approximately $180 $175 117 of that goes back to the Sheriff's Office complained about it for years that's why legislative made a statute that's not being fed in valuch County so if that 117 wasn't there the consumer would pay 50 bucks if that's if that wasn't there it would have went to rotation what it used to be prior to five eight years ago and no they would have paid whatever the county rate would have been no no assuming well assuming everybody was being honest in the business right well your legitimate companies your companies that are all here representing they're they're honest companies the trespass Towers or the Rogue Towers let me I'm sorry Mr chair I just I know I'm kind of really diving deep but I just have to get this fundamental understanding from me and what is happening to the consumer if that 117 wasn't there a entally the remaining amount you get 50 bucks approximately under that scenario right and you do it every day they call you yep and if they called you every day and said 50 bucks would you continue to do it well basically I stopped doing Sheriff's toe and I I stopped bidding it because but people are doing it yeah the Count's getting more than the to is it was taking that average it's for the volume of the work and then if the vehicles don't get picked up you junk them but you know now with motor homes and boats we're paying to dispose of this stuff so it it got to where paying the cities to do their work became you know not worth it yeah and and I'll leave with this Mr chair I'm not denying costs have gone up and I'm really just trying to drive deep trying to balance oh I understand your needs and and protecting consumers yeah I've done this for 47 years and and I fully understand how confused staff had to be to work on this because I had to call some of the counties and some of the operators in those counties and say okay how does your great work because it makes no sense to me thank thank you for answering my question thank you Mr uh councilman Johansson do you have a question for Glenn uh for Janine okay so I'm I'm I'm now a little upset that I didn't do a little more Flagler research but um was what was the impetus for Flagler moving forward do you know I don't all right um but I would like to clarify one thing that was just said just so you know that line item to that's paid to the sheriff in that bid it is a line item they can put in whatever they want I mean they can bid what they want those prices as you heard they're different I mean and I think we have one that's even just $25 back so um that is the price that bids put in to try to win that bid and it's a multiple award it's not one vendor it's a multiple award and and that's kind of going down to my next question um uh th this non-consensual that is a contracted item yeah the sheriff's non-consensual when we talk when I the first thing I said was non-consensual is law enforcement so it could be the highway patrol but that is those prices on non-consensual are what we put into our solicitation and we live bu in the sheriff's office so so so the companies that are here today entered in a contract three years ago and it agreed upon price that that we're talking about renegotiating now they entered into a contract that had the non-consensual they they could only bid those non-consensual set prices then anything optional in there they asked for including the money that they to pay back to the sheriff gets included in their total contract I got that and and that's that's the argument right now that we want to raise the rate that they contracted to three years ago correct okay but they want it for the whole they want to change the ordinance so that they can also apply those same rates to Florida Highway Patrol and any other law enforcement agency with there it sounds like it's Florida Highway Patrol relies on our ordinance to set their rates but we also rely on our own rates in our bid process so stay there um County attorney the the current Florida statute is going to if if we can't come up with a plan it will it will it will fall back to the Florida Highway Patrol rates and the Florida Highway Patrol rates are dependent on us right now so there is a I screw that up no I I think that's an accurate summation but so House Bill 179 has not been signed by the governor yet if and when it does it adds a subsection D to Florida statute 125.0 one3 which is applicable to counties and then in 166 as well for which will be applicable to municipalities and it says a county it will say once the governor signs it a county or municipality that has established maximum rates as described in paragraph C which is what you're talking about here must establish such rates on its website and publish process for investigating resolving complaints regarding fees okay we talked about that last sentence says in areas where no maximum rates as described in paragraph C have been established the maximum rates established by the division of Florida Highway Patrol under statute Florida statute 321 051 subsection 2 apply now what I've heard I think the gentleman said today is that it seems like FHP defaults to the County's publish rates currently but as I read the statute I would presume that FHP is in the process of establishing rates based on the new statute got it I think I think my concern right now and and I know you know enough about contracts to be dangerous that that we are capable of doing contracts that have CPI increases in them uh if we need them and this may or may not have been done here it was yeah there is uh this was one of their earlier contracts so it doesn't have an out clause and it doesn't have a change clause in it that is why it needs to die before we can do anything with it okay um and it was done three years ago it wasn't renewed it was initiated brand new B correct um and and that that contract didn't have any stipulation that said if if inflation goes down and things get much better and insurance goes down not that it ever will um that that their rates would go down accordingly or it would my understanding um I they may they may put I probably if I had to guess they'll put it in but they did not have any price redetermination language like our standard contracts have our standard contracts with the county have uh an option for unusual costs and also um using a CPI or PPI to increase or decrease pricing but occur in this contract did not occur in this contract and there's two more years left in this contract uh well one year one year 25 got it um I'm very curious to know if fler was renegotiating and that's what brought him to the table I want to know what the motivation was um and it may have been some advocation by or uh advocating by the uh um by the uh uh vendors as well but I'm I'm going to look into that a little bit if you find anything let me know thank you one thing that doesn't all that line it occurs to me uh with this law coming into play and the fact that the uh default rate will be the state rate if if you don't have a maximum rate and the fact that every County around seems to be right now uh changing that rate tells me that I think the industry uh wanted to make sure that uh counties had a maximum rate set otherwise it would go to the state default rate and that could be an average of the entire State I don't know where they're going to come the turnpike rate right now happens to be our rate 125 so uh you know I think that that's you know not a coincidence that uh every single County seems to be facing this right now I'm pretty sure it's being driven uh so that uh make sure that a county has an acceptable maximum rate versus the default rate for the state thank you uh councilman Santiago thank you Mr chairman um I'm gonna I'm G to make a motion Mr chair um and my motion is because I think there's still unanswered questions at least for me I think today today's hearing has brought some more confusion um and specifically because the only rate that we're being asked to change is the other rate nonconsensual nonconsensual rate and um I'm concerned with information that I don't have any other data from the sheriff's office I know the sheriff's office said that they'd accept whatever we did but I don't know if they'd accept what I'm going thinking about proposing because I'm looking for the consumer um and I'm very concerned with some of the pieces that I've heard um and and I don't want to be upset with it because I don't have the other side's information and and why we may be charging these administrative fees it may be a valid reason um and also with the fact that this state law that comes into effect July um I'm also encouraged now to propose I'll this Mr I I move that we table this item until second meeting in August the reason for that date is that it gives the state law to be enacted it allows the state to come up with some ruem possibly within that window that would give us some more guidance I don't want to displace the fact that you have a legitimate concern but I'm not I don't have enough information to fight for you fight for the public there there's still more information for me because if I go to a vote today I'm a no because I don't have enough and that's just me I'm one vote um but I think we in my opinion we we owe it to get more data on this know learning what I think we've learned today um with how these fees are being assessed yes everything's gone up but everything's gone up for the consumers too the person paying for that toe their life expense expenses have gone up too so we got to be very very careful that these people can remain in business they're charging a legitimate fee and that our consumers are being watched for and making sure that fees within those fees are not a tax I have a personal opinion that I've had for years that anytime government collects money I don't care what you title it if it goes to the government it's a tax I don't care what other names you have on it and we need to watch for all of those taxes at any time so thank you Mr chair that's my motion the motion on the floor is to table this into the second meeting of August is there a second and if there is no second that motion chairman chairman I I want to hear from the other people because I I think Mr Santiago brings up a very valid point about needing some more information I'm pleased that we are having the conversation there possibly going to be some some movement here but um I guess procedurally if if if you want to second right now or it's going to die I'm going to Second it okay uh Vice chair Kent makes the second for the purpose of discussion uh councilman Robbins thanks shair 12 our our Towing folks uh we hear you loud and clear um I think it's a very mature approach uh that Mr sanago uh has proposed uh and I think it's going to give us an opportunity to look at things holistically look at all sides of this um sometimes uh slow is fast and uh it'll give a chance for the state to to to do whatever they're trying to do but also to give us the opportunity to look uh at everything and what's best for everything and try to find a middle ground on here that way it's not one sided noided and and you know I want I want everybody to be as as happy as possible I think this is the right way to do it so uh David I'm going to support you councilman Dempsey yeah um kind of with all due respect I kind of disagree with you guys um this has been 22 years and uh just looking I I believe we should recommend the Flagler rates because these guys haven't had an adjustment in 22 years um you know again I believe in free enterprise and uh a la a fair economy I don't think that we should be telling these guys what they should be capped at none of this appears to be punitive or extortion or anything like that I don't think they're unfair I mean they're not even doubling their rates I think everything has doubled in the last 22 years real estate's doubled gas G has doubled everything's doubled over the last 22 years they're not even asking to double their rates and to make them wait anything longer would be unfair um I mean think about the typical scenario you have a a car wreck and I mean we're not capping what the emergency room doctors can charge the patients when they come in we're not capping what the ambulance crew can charge for the ambulance ride to the hospital why are we going to cap what these guys are going to get for towing the cars away way I mean nothing here seems exorbitant it's just the whole I believe the intent of this whole law is to just keep people from getting fleeced and I don't see any evidence of any fleecing through these prices so I think I disagree I think we should vote today and I would recommend that we vote for the Flagler raids thanks uh I'm not sure if if we're keeping up with the list but okay councilman Robbins and and Don I I um I I agree with you uh in terms of the race that very well may be the direction that I I go but also two uh I don't want to go in this thing half coocked uh with with with not there may be just a little bit more to this to get me over that line because I I do believe that uh I don't think that they should also be absorbing the burden of inflationary spending that's coming from other uh places so uh we're all feeling it I just think uh we can do this uh 100% the right way I think we can get there maybe close uh I that's where I'm at but I'd like to see uh the additional information and just and weigh it all out Don but I I I get what you're coming I just think we need to look at it just a little bit more councilman Santiago yeah thank you and I I wanted to add what Danny think that my Approach is not for or against your the the towers position yet um just in what what's surfaced I think for me Don is that when I and I don't have that opposing side to to to to my questioning said to me that $185 $175 toe and the most simple standard right of of a toe in two days stay 117 of that goes to the government that that that muddies the water for me to say what's going on here is this system broken is it a legitimate fee that the Sheriff's Office should charge I don't know but they're not here to speak on it so that's why I can't go to the far to make a decision that's why I would vote no if it today we need answers to that and if it's not needed what protections or what things can we change to ensure that we heard $25 so it it seems like it's a one-sided a wild wild west as to how that fee is assessed I don't know but let us get information and make that decision that's why I propos to table it just so you councilman Dempsey yeah I I disagree I agree with you about the government should and be taking a cut of this I mean I think it gives a disincentive for like in a DUI case when the officer could give the person a choice of calling a family member to pick up the car as opposed to having it towed and I would always encourage them to let a family member take the car but you know now there's I find out there's an incentive a fiscal incentive for the sheriff to have the car towed potentially as opposed to I'm I'm I'm gathering that but still I don't think it's fair to make these guys wait any longer to get which probably five to 10 years past two I mean inflation has just been running a muck the last couple of years so I think they kind of need it sooner than later so I think we could probably pass it and then look into that later on about cutting the county share out and amending it but as far as adopting the Flagler rates now I think it'd be better to do it now than later thanks thank you it's David on on one hand I think think you're U I think it makes a lot of sense this is confusing we've heard a lot of things that uh that we really hadn't had time to consider um but Don I you know I think I'm leaning your way one of the things that I see is that this is not really a free market system because all these non-consensual toes it's not supply and demand they don't have any say and you maybe they broke the law they parked in the wrong place um so we we're being asked to uh be the cap to keep people from being fleeced and um and yet these companies are uh mandated To Go and Tow at a rate that we approve which is not part of the free market system um so it's it's uh confusing so we if if you don't agree with it we can you know we'll we're getting ready to take a vote we'll um we can vote this down and then you could make another um motion to approve Flagler but right now the motion on the floor is to table until the second meeting in August um um for me I think it's that's just that's uh too long you know we could do it in July but the motion is second meeting in August councilman Robbins chair can we ask the councilman sanago if he'd be amicable and staff can we get this information back quicker than second meeting of August I mean we we've already hashed out the the meet potatoes of this if we're just needing a little bit more information can we get it like the next meeting and that way it puts gives an ease of comfort instead of dragging this thing out or not the next meeting because tomorrow we'll be setting the agend attenda for the next meeting so I I would say uh the uh earliest I could do it would be we only have one meeting in July okay so I would say maybe the first meeting in August would be the best I could do I I'm Mr chair I okay I'm okay with that I and that also gives time for the state law to be enacted um for us to see what the results of that were during that time period too what the what rule making or anything the state made so I just picked picked the last meeting in August because I knew we didn't have a first meeting in July so I just want to make sure I wasn't missing anything be methodical about this I don't they need every opportunity and I'm I'm supporting everybody here I just want to make sure we yeah and not to being sensitive and you know two meetings three meetings to wait and I know you've waited 22 years but three meetings to wait I to get it right hopefully I think it's not a lot to ask for Mr Santiago are you amending the date to the first meeting in August thank you yeah I'll I'll amend the date L if my second is okay with it and as and as the second of the motion um I'm okay with that okay so the motion on the floor right now is the first meeting in August to uh bring this back um I I would uh I'm going to call for the vote I I'll just say this that it I think it would be a good idea if if this passes and it's going to August that um I I hope that the tow truck drivers will reach out out to council and you have to ask us individually because we can't meet could I just also using that time from here to August will give us time that we will meet with the uh that's where I was going you staff will meet with com I would like to to ask that maybe they come up with a you know small Committee of three or four I don't need to meet with the entire industry they are but if they could do that then uh we can use that time to meet with them Mr chair can I add um the guidance to that if I you may yes councilman Santiago at the same time get with the sheriff's office right to find out we will definitely be with the sheriff's office as well we we work hand inand with them um and again perspective uh there's a body of work that the sheriff but this is much larger than the sheriff so uh take uh just it's not all on his shoulders or anything either there's a lot there but but we will meet with the industry and uh that'll give us that time the good news is I think we have direction to know that we are going to be updating them they should take a little comfort in that now it's just a uh are we what numbers are we going to look at and use and we'll also update we'll go back and update because it is a changing environment so we'll go back and update those numbers uh from the various counties and make sure we have what we were supposed to have and if legal couldn't if our legal Department can get an answer to Glenn's comment about I think the term they used they used to use the word franchise fees and he thinks there's a legal um uh issue there as to how that fee is being assessed also I'd like to get a legal analysis on that we'll discuss that at the meeting yes sir when we meet with them we'll discuss and we'll bring it back thank you okay I think for me that makes a that makes a big difference so I will uh the mo on the floor now is to table to the first meeting in August and uh between now and then staff will meet with you you can meet with any council member that you request a meeting with and um Carissa would would you call the role Please Mr Robbins no Mr Santiago me hold up let's make let me let me yeah just let me restate the motion clearly um uh for all of us uh the motion on the table is that we table this until the first meeting in August it's a simple thank you chair uh thanks for catching that yes Mr Santiago yes Mr Dempsey no Mr Johansson yes Mr Kent yes Mr Brower yes so the motion passes uh 5 to one and we will see you in August thank you all that brings us to uh item five uh resolution 2024 rezoning from Prime agriculture A1 uh Mr Brower you actually skipped over item four that means it passed right I I did maybe I need some uh item four alcohol drug and mental health funding yes sir Brad bbal director of community services though the presentation as part of the packet uh but if it's the council's pleasure I can offer some introductory comments unless there's a motion to approve one of the options provided on page 4-12 are there any questions is there a motion David Santiago moves to approve second Johansson it needs to so there's four options for you I would Rec staff recommendation is C which is using some arpa funds and it would result in 500,000 in general fund savings move to approve with staff recommendations item C uh one point of clar ific Mr chair if I may is we've selected a um one of the agencies in the agenda item to receive the arpa funds I would ask that you give staff a little bit of leeway there in terms of determining what agency get the arpa funds because there's additional reporting so um rather than us just selecting Halifax give us the opportunity to negotiate with these IND would you like to amend your motion sure thank you Mr chairman uh I amend my motion to include staff uh guidance to issue the funds accordingly as stated by Mr Brett thank you and is there a second to the motion yet second Johansson with a question and councilman Johansson makes the second and um you said you had a question yes sir go ahead Dr B so it with that stipulation for the arpa funds at the end of the day everybody gets the same amount that option C shows correct that is correct okay thank you okay any other questions any comment on the the motion which is to allow uh staff guidance to uh negotiate oh we do have questions questions or comments Vice chair Kent just a comment chairman um and Council I I just want you all to know that that I had a a um healthy conversation with Dr bbau yesterday in depth about this and my comfort level was put at so much ease because of his competency and his professionalism and I just wanted to publicly state that um he's he's a great driver at the helm for things like this so Dr bbau thank you and Michael Dyer was that an accident that was a pocket dial uh any other comments questions then chrisa would you call the role Mr Robbins yes Mr Santiago yes Mr dimsey Mr Johansson yes Mr Kent yes Mr Brower yes and the motion is approved unanimously six to zero and that brings us to item five U rezoning Prime Agriculture and director Irvin good morning Clay Irvin director growth and Resource Management uh today uh coming to you is a request for resoning by the property owner uh this is coming to you with a recommendation of approval from both the staff and the planning and Land Development regulation commission the subject property is current zoned A1 the applicant is requesting a rezoning to A2 uh this is consistent with the adopted future land use map uh staff has reviewed it the main issue is that the uh property owner seeks to divide the property for two separate Parcels uh that has been identified that that is feasible with the zoning but there are wetlands on site which do not count towards the density requirements and the applicant is aware of those issues once proceed forward with the rezoning again it's coming forward to you with a recommendation of approval from both your staff and the pdrc we're available if there's any questions just a quick question this as I understand it this they're not making this change to develop with 12 houses they want to add another house for a family member okay motion to approve chairman second johe Hanson we have a motion to approve by uh Vice chair Kent second by councilman Joe Hanson any other questions comments just a quick comment and and I'll just almost repeat what I said about Dr bbau you know I'm not an expert in land use and planning but clay Irvin is and um it it it carries a lot of weit with me when I read the report uh clay and see that you and your staff have gone through this with a fine tooth comb and you all are are recommending approval thank you okay all in favor any other comments all in favor say I I any opposed and motion carries 6 to zero and now we have a series of resolution we'll start with item six resolution awarding non-exclusive commercial solid waste collection and Disposal franchises to Anderson Rentals good morning Council chair um couldn't have said it any better myself Mr chair this is a non-exclusive commercial waste hauling agreement with with Anderson Reynolds uh we estimate an annual fee revenue of $1800 and we recommend approval okay any question approve Johanson we have a motion to approve by councilman Johansson second Kent second by Vice chair Kent questions David Santiago no chair I'll comment I'll wait for the debate or unless you want to do now are there any questions then for comments David Santiago thank you Mr chairman I want to thank staff for proposing it again as a non-exclusive I think last year it said the same thing I certainly wish our cities would follow that uh methodology um and uh as part of educating the public as to how this process works I want to say but what happens in in other government entities that do not do non-exclusive um they pay the government additional Monies to have this agreement and then what that does is that it raises the cost of your trash particularly in the commercial sector is really what it happens so um you'll see where you would all scenario you'll get a container um or you have to get a container for your commercial or every any other area that fee in some cases three to four times more than it is in the private sector um for you to get if they did not have this agreement so in other words we're doing it right we're letting the free market work its way um and and uh I'm happy that it's this way thank you Mr chair you're welcome any other comments questions all in favor of the resolution say I I any opposed and item six passes unanimously six to zero which brings us to item seven an also a non-exclusive commercial solid waste collection and Disposal franchise to hover Construction Company move to approve johe Hansson second your this motion is made to approve uh by councilman Johansson and the second was by Vice chair Kent and apparently they don't have any questions for you any comments Michael Dyer I have to apologize Mr chair apparently I keep hitting the button inadvertently actually I see Russ doing it when you're not looking is it it's your birthday right yeah sorry about that okay uh questions comments all in favor of this non-exclusive commercial solid weight collection say I I any opposed motion carries 6 to Zer which brings us to item 8 and next non-exclusive commercial solid waste collection and Disposal franchise to JJ's waste and recycling move to approve Jo Hansen second nobody wants to hear from you this morning perfectly okay motion to approve uh by Jake Johansson second by Vice chair Kent questions comments all in favor say I I any opposed and that resolution also passes unanimously 6 to zero bringing us to item nine amendment number one to agreement number wg0 02 with the Florida Department of Environmental Protection and budget resolution appropriating Grant funds with a revenue of $2,750,000 correct um so this is an an amendment similar to the one we had at the last meeting uh d uh is granting us an additional 12 million plus dollars for our Southeast Regional water Wastewater Reclamation facility which is down in Oak Hill and serves oakill and portions of Edgewater this um doubles the amount of grant money we have uh earmarked for this project to just under $25 million we anticipate design being complete this summer and uh substantial completion of a construction in the uh winter of 2026 um recommend approval of this amendment and be happy to answer any questions y'all may have there any questions for director Bartlett is there a motion motion approve Johansson second motion to approve by councilman Johansson a second by councilman [Music] Robbins comments questions all in favor say I I any opposed and the motion is approved for the revenue of $12.7 million in item 9 which brings us to item 10 Mr chair yes sir for item 10 I was just informed uh this morning that we were informed by the Department of Transportation this is a lap agreement uh so there's Federal funding involved and uh they had inadvertently uh missed a step in their review uh and so out of an abundance of caution uh I would ask that we uh remove this item and uh we'll place it back on uh a later meeting hopefully the next one but I would just say a later meeting meeting uh pending the successful review of the Department transportation okay then can I get a motion to table this to an undetermined date but soon yes I'll make that motion chairman second Johansson motion by Vice chair Kent second by councilman Johansson to table it until we have all the information to bring it back all in favor say I I any opposed motion carries 6 to zero item 11 Ryan osowski with a five-year capital projects plan Oh Aaron Aaron's the guy that has to put up with uh everybody bringing this stuff uh to him and uh so let him give the presentation we do have uh Division and department heads uh available for questioning in the audience go ahead okay thank you all right so just a really quick uh presentation most of the the slides on here are here for your information purposes and the public and then we're here to answer any questions that you have uh just to to note on the process outline this plan is reviewed and updated annually each year um years two through five that are on all the spreadsheets that were attached to this item they are for financial planning purposes the funding isn't appropriated until it's included in the budget or it's brought forward to you guys in a budget resolution so those are truly a plan that we do go back can update every year depending on change in direction or uh you know what have you some statistics for you to review some facilities maintenance statistics the criteria for types of projects and then uh just a a little funding request uh by project type the capital replacement project small capital and capital Improvement gives you a total and then the funding uh not identified projects list over there on the far right tells you what capital replacement project are tells you what small capital and capital Improvement projects are we've been over this plenty of times before and then Capital Improvement funding not identified uh presenting those the projects with funding not identified was part of the internal audit recommendation that we've been following uh currently we have 945 Million worth of projects where funding has not been identified the majority of those projects are for roads uh there will be a separate presentation on the road uh Road program brought at a later date and then important to note our capital program is mostly pay as you go we don't take out debt for our Capital uh program unless it's in an Enterprise fund uh or the SunRail uh we took out debt for SunRail in the general fund that's the only debt we have in there and we do continually seek grants or other alternative funding sources to fund our projects whenever possible and these are the highlighted large projects that we wanted to get in front of you for a little bit of direction um in addition to any questions that you might have on projects that are on the list we have the judicial court complex that would require debt to fund a project of this size the sheriff Administration complex uh which was a new request from the Sheriff's Office and then H the southeast area landfill construction so this one is a a large number we will be taking out debt for this project it is in the Enterprise fund the landfill fund you wanna okay um and then PFC emroy Bennett Park expansion phase one that was part of the Hunden study and then a more like I said a more detailed presentation on the road projects will be brought back to council at a separate separate presentation and then like I said we're available for any questions that you may have just a quick question to uh you and really just so that so that it's clear to the public I know I'm getting emails probably the rest of the council about the uh the funding for the Motocross people are asking me when did you uh vote for that we didn't vote for it we will vote for it when it we get all the information this is on here because uh you do a good job of trying to plan for money it's based on the figure that uh presentative Dempsey suggested um after after hearing about 10 million it's it's uh less so anyway so the public knows it's uh this is just good planning but it will come back to the council So to that point yes we do have it in there for the budget for planning right and even a project of that size would come back to council later for contract award anyway so even if you approve the budget with that money in there the contract still coming back at a later date so it's not just a onetime shot so the idea really is uh we are now in the really the I won't say the final but the really U intense state of our budget preparation so these are the capital parts that we have grouped and picked the time today to put them all together in Pre some years uh that did not occur but I think got the recommendations from our auditor and discussions with uh the council it was important that we had uh we pulled these out and just talked about them separately we direction is to go forth um and then they'll be put into the budget numbers and you're going to see uh is it the next meeting yeah it will be the five-year forecast which is really uh putting in the presumptive budget uh along with what we think is going to happen over the next 5 years because we do uh don't budget in a vacuum and a lot of these projects of course will will occur over multiple years so we're building that now uh and then with that 5year forecast and then we come back uh and of course you're going to set the trim and uh and get your budget uh proposal in July okay and then it gives us August to chew on it and September to vote on it so just so all those out there listening uh know exactly what the process is so anything today they shouldn't be alarmed or anything this is a discussion uh is to um do you want to see it coming up in the budget or not thank you for that clarification uh councilman Robbins thanks shair uh real quick the for the Moc cross uh track that estimate or number there that's general fund so we have 3 and a. half million in there for the total estimate uh half of it is general fund and half of it is Echo okay Council I don't know how yall feel I don't know if general fund is appropriate especially with with what we're dealing with in other areas um I'd be more amicable or leaning to the way uh to the the point of like a direct expenditure from Echo you know which which is in our um wheelhouse and not kind of taking it from general fund which you know we hear uh growth doesn't pay for itself well it's because we're spending the money in other areas except for probably more of where it should be going uh that's just my opinion so uh Council would you be amicable to maybe take that general fund number off the table and focus on Echo is this the right time to do that Brad bbal you're in the house certainly uh now is the is definitely a good time if you want to discuss how we would pay for something that's definitely uh the case again we're we put together remember the budget in total um and I think what these guys have done is you know try to make some assumptions here for the purposes of the discussion but yes it's fine to if you want to direct this uh to pay for it out of at least budget for it excuse me out of uh one particular area we can do that yeah thanks uh thanks uh County Manager uh I'd be willing to make that motion if if if need be um to uh be very Target specific even if you know we we may not vote for this thing I mean we may get thrown some I don't know um but I'd like to see it uh very Target specific in ter for the money you know uh be used for Echo we have money there um let's use it and not and not keep robbing the the general fund if possible okay then um I think you're right I uh as far as making a motion on that I think you should um you could make a motion that we do not spend general fund that it's paid for by Echo and again this is for planning you're not voting to do it yet you're just voting to move to to Really send the message no general fund spending so uh so chair I'll make that motion that going forward if we do uh decide to uh go forward with a facility that we uh are very specific when it comes to funding that it comes from um the uh Echo fund only do we have a second on that motion for discussion I'll second it for discussion purposes and I have a question of the sponsor if I may Mr chair uh yes for you have a question for for the sponsor yeah of the amendment um I second it so we can keep talking where I have a problem is I think because this is just a planning document right and um I'd hate to do a motion that specifically says we can't do something right um can you can we amend that to just say that at this point as part of the planning we'd like to consider taking that out of Echo and then we'll deal with it when the time comes I agree but if but chair is it okay if I yes this is a necessary discussion I think I I agree uh David that we are in the planning but here we're taking money out or projecting money to be taken out and and I can make the motion take that 1.7 million and put it towards storm water or or roads uh like I had made a proposal earlier that we start a a road uh a guaranteed Road program every year um uh or you know something for that nature uh to help out in that area uh but I just think you know we're we're taxing these folks uh in all directions we're taxing them uh on Echo which everybody uh agreed to or 70 some odd percent and there's a pile of of of money in there to be used and and we've been pretty good uh with with that so I I think the money is there I think that if we can agree that we can maybe free up that and apply it somewhere else that it may be better needed I would like to go that uh like to go that route yeah Mr chairman um I'm okay with it I mean because I want to take it out of echo also um I just was trying to be preemptive from the when we do make that decision for or against it and how we're going to fund it you know I I um and depending how we decide at that day to fund it um if if it comes out that well we're going to maybe fund it partially Echo partially General and I'm not suggesting any one way but if that discussion does go down that path um I want to be open to consider that and not say well you voted you know uh to not do that which is okay I can support it here now because I believe in the philosophy everything is permanent until you change it yeah so that that we're doing this and we could change it later too so H how about this make it easy let me hear from uh Mr Kent Mr Johansson and uh and Don and and and I'll pull it if if we decide to no and I'll vote for it I just wanted to put it out there that you know if we want to change it later we can certainly change that philosophy later if we so all right okay we have a motion on the floor but uh we will let the other council members speak uh Vice chair Kent thank you chairman please don't take my name down because I initially put it up because I want to talk about a couple other things but since I'm in the rotation now I'd like to address that and I wish you wouldn't have changed your mind on that because we heard today um and I think that we and let me just stop for a moment I I think we can get there I'm not I haven't thrown out the idea that there could be a public private partnership and we could we could make this happen and I like Don's numbers a lot more than I like staff's numbers even though Don has not voted for one thing I've wanted to do but I'm still going to try to help and support him but but um we heard we heard from a woman this morning and the thing that stuck out with me was she said you know Echo first thing is environmental and it just makes me think why are we going to pigeon hole ourselves just with that I liked where you were going with that you know I mean doesn't mean we can't change our mind down the road um with any of it but right now it kind of locks us into it so I'm a no on that because of of being constrained with that if you can get Mr Robbins to change it then I I might be able to support it or if I can get him to change it uh so that we're not just pigeon hold into only using looking at Echo money for that I'm not sure but there could be people who are extremely passionate about Echo who are screaming right now in their on their personal devices going you know explain how that's an echo project I like having good answers I don't know that I have a good one for that so I'm I'm out on that if we're just going to constrain it to Echo councilman Joe Hansson yeah so a few things um yeah the Ian Echo is environment but I think the O is outdoors and and Don's not proposing an indoor Motocross facility um so I I know people on their personal devices are going to are going to say hey how about Trails but uh um I think it's important important that we look at that in its totality um I I am not a big fan of of using um uh general fund dollars for this uh as as uh sumon pointed out um but there are other options by saying uh just using Echo I I think we constrict ourselves to just using Echo even if it's in theory that thoughts out there if we say let's let's take it out of the the CIP in in the planning stage right now the um the general fund dollars that will make us make that hard decision when it comes time to vote whether we use those general fund dollars and and put it back in and go okay guys let's suck it up remember budgeting is is these guys are are are building the budget to a figure out how much we're going to tax people right and and B kind of have a plan for them to to execute okay they they they have a 5-year plan Council told us that that we're going to build a new courthouse we're going to renovated a courthouse whatever the case may be um so so let's let's proceed with that thought process or they didn't want anything to do with it right now we're kind of thinking Motocross is is in our future somewhere we don't know how to spend it but um I'm I'm with councilman Robbins I'm not I'm not I'm not too keen on spending general fund dollars on it yet so to take it out we send a message we don't want to spend general fund dollars on it nothing's permanent we might have to but right now we do not want to plan in our fiveyear plan to spend government dollars on it therefore we won't think about considering taxing people for it in the short term um now if if echo's fat in in a year or two when we have to write that check then then then maybe we use it if it's not then then maybe we don't have to so uh and that's not to say that there's some other state grant that comes up that you know what if the Motocross Lobby goes to the state and says I'm going to give you a couple billion dollars for Motocross there's some more money that's available just just don't limit it to Echo just take the general fund piece out in my opinion thank you councilman Den safe yeah I I agree with Troy I think we should just leave it open for all avenues because we don't even know what option we have three potential options how this is even going to be operated a land lease public private partnership or County run so if it's County run I would expect more money to go in it it might be tied into a greater facility it might be tied into let's say the fairgrounds which may be part of a bigger complex and there might be more tied into this than just a Motocross facility it may be tied into other facilities oh so I don't want to just pigeon hole it right now and I don't know where did the three and a half million we've spent so far on pickle ball come from was that from just solely echko or did that come from some general fund as well yeah I think it was a partnership with the city of poy Hill I think it they had a private uh uh donor right and uh and then the then our Echo so those was were not none of our general fund uh was in the big pona project I know recently we had some skateboard parks we had um did that all just come from Echo Brad yes so so all the pickle ball courts I'll clarify 2.9 of that 3.5 was awarded through Ekko where there was a match from our partners um pona was a public private partnership $5 million was sunk into that from Private Industry uh or private donor um to establish the pickle ball courts where we've had Community meetings and it was um asked we use Park impact fees in Echo as well so no general fund dollars have went into the um pickle ball and our um the second question the skateboard parks that was again um Echo projects with match that the our Municipal Municipal Partners have brought to the table is there any realistic expectation that this would require us to use general fund money and that that's a policy decision for for these individuals I will say that we have significant resources um with with Ekko you'll see that next we next meeting and the fiveyear forecast okay because I'm you know I'm not wanting to spend $10 million like I've said consistently throughout this whole thing three and a half I think should get it done but I'm just wondering is there going to be enough is there three and a half available solely through Echo yes there significant resources with Echo okay is there anything that would be involved in a Motocross facility that Echo wouldn't cover like the access roads or utilities or anything like that infrastructure so typically we're looking at the entire project so that what the cost to get the project done um to provide the service to our citizens at the end of the day so um typically those things are included as part of a larger project that the citizens will have public access to okay thank you I still don't want to constrain oursel to one column I'd like to kind of leave it open until we have a better idea of which option we're going to go with and even if we have a site found and all that but I'm def definitely in favor of taking everything from echko I think it's clearly a outdoor recreational activity so I think that fits squarely within the echo boundaries but I don't know if we should confine ourselves to that at this point so I'm kind as we said on that previous item when Ben Barton was up here uh we started out with the idea on that water treatment plant Waste Water treatment plant that that would funded fully from the uh revenues of our utility then we went out and got grants on top of that so that's what what you know I would Envision here I agree you don't want to constrain I mean we could say look we're not uh you know it would not be our priority to put general fund money we could start off with the idea we be all Echo but I can tell you the staff are trained Grant killers they go on out and uh they they're going to constantly look uh for Grants that's what they do um and there is a grant available for Motor Sports uh state level we'll go after that as well so our idea would be if you guys want to go and we can get a number budgetary number we'll go on out and find uh funding sources with the general fund being the last resort if if we have to but I would agree we should look at all the other options and the partnership opportunities as we had discussed previously for this so uh again it was just a planning number uh and and one way to get there but if you don't like having that number uh Associated we could right now plug it in there with uh you know either the full amount or the three and a half from Echo I we got plenty of money to do that and then work towards uh finding other sources to hone that number down um that'd be fine or we could put uh as as we talked about funding to be determined on some of the other projects like we have in there so it's not a again it's just a planning document and uh we hear you loud and clear already that you know you prefer not to have um general fund money used okay Tor are you up here for okay uh Vice chair Kent I'm not up here for for this now i' I've spoken on this I've got two highlighted large projects that I wanted to talk about all right let's finish this one uh first um councilman Robbins real quick Brad how much if you don't mind me asking how much do we have in in Echo to date and and what's our spending schedule so far what what's in the hopper the the team's going to look it up to give you the most accurate number but I believe at the start of last fiscal year there was um 15 million in unallocated fund balance and what's our projections for this next taxing cycle that will come to you next meeting with the fiveyear plan but the tax is generating a little over maybe close to 11 million now a little over 10 last year so 10.2 I believe so we'll have roughly 25 26 million total not including Any Grant cycle funding yes that's that's what we'll have in the Echo account okay do there will be projects for example we this Council has elected to have another cycle this year so I I know of three projects that are coming in that cycle so we also spend down some of those reserves but we will still have probably over 10 million is my best estimate okay before you go go ahead um I'll finish up DeBerry how much is the to Barry project and is that coming back up it hasn't come in the door but I believe they are coming back and it was 2.5 okay um yes no other projects on the books that you know of yet so I've spoken to one of the grant writers who's a prolific grant writer of echo for our um our program and I know that of the she's working on three alone herself so not sure there may be others that come in the door as well okay and thank you and um councilman Robins uh you can you have something else you want to say but please clarify for us all that your motion is just to say no general fund period so this is what I'm going to do okay I'll go ahead and pull that off the tapable I'll retract my my motion but I I just want to be clear Council I'm sure you've received the message um where I'm at right I think we're all probably there and I think you know we just want to have that as a safeguard but I think we have money flowing in uh I think in years past we we maybe don't use a lot of it but yet we have to tax these folks uh for it uh at a maximum millage rate and um you know there's there's more to to Echo than just just the environmental and I think this would be a a very fitting project um for the outdoor recreation program and and I would prefer um like I said just so you guys know where I'm at Echo number one combined with grants last option to to consider um general fund because we have uh much greater priorities I think we can use it for okay that that I can get behind and I'll I'll happily second that he's he's withdrawing the motion completely oh that was you w making a motion on that do it he withdrew his motion I was let letting everyone know where how I'm going to be voting if you know in the future oh okay just a planning document so they've heard loud and clear um we going to vote not on that we're going to vote on I have a following question we have uh several questions U but you have a question on this yes sir okay councilman Johansson so in the CIP uh Aaron we have $1,750,000 in in next year's budget it and and that is general fund money because we haven't said yes to Echo funds yet so we did put 1.7 million in the general fund plan right um it it's onetime money yeah I got that so so this is a presentation we're going to vote on the budget part of the budget will be the CIP and that will be in there and we will tax our taxpayers for that 1.750 So based on the direction today we're going to pull it out of the general fund plan um if we say if we you're going to pull it out anyhow I think that was the consensus here is to not plan for it in the general fund and then if we end up having to use general fund dollars then we'll pull it from Reserves at thanks for clarifying that for me can we get clarification on that just from the council sitting up here because I know Dempsey councilman Dempsey and I were leaning one way and that right right now the in their Five-Year Plan it's shown as half of it coming from Echo half of it coming from general fund um they're taking our conversation to say no general fund money we didn't vote on that but I go ahead director i' I'd say we're taking the conversation to say for the purposes of this plan to move the money not what the future is right it could change and that we we will vote on you're not clear I'm not just because I needed I think I needed to hear from you where you were on it uh I agree I don't want to see any of it come from general fund okay I'm that that's it clearer then I'm not trying to shut you down but I now I hear you so I I heard you I I get it so the majority majority is that's where you are that's fine okay you had several other things you wanted to discuss and then we have several members of the public that I I did so I I wanted I wanted to publicly talk about two of the highlighted large projects um one being the sheriff Administration complex at at $30 million um I had a a wonderful opportunity through Sheriff Chitwood and um to do a ride along with Chief Deputy Henderson probably six weeks ago eight weeks ago and you know we we went to a couple of the substations and we were able to have a conversation about consolidation and and um you know working working smarter um not not harder so I'm I'm appreciative of that so I I just want to maybe have a a quick little conversation with staff about um that complex and then you know I we we have a couple people that just walked in uh CH chief judge case is here and and uh judge Perkins is here and I had a really uh positive in-depth conversation with uh chief judge case the other day and this is this is a a huge number but you know she reminded me that this has been a conversation that previous councils have talked about for nine plus years and unless we make it a priority and put something in A Five-Year Plan and start having a real conversations about this it's going to be another nine years and I'm I'm hoping judge that you're going to speak and talk to us because you you shared some information with me about projections and space you don't have and that's very problematic not just for me but I think the entire County of Valia if you don't have enough rooms for the judges that are being projected so I'm I'm you have my ear on that and I'd like for I'd like for the the council to maybe I will you know after hearing what you say talk about uh directing staff in a couple of months to possibly come back so that we can get a little more in depth about the real possibility of putting this into Like A Five-Year Plan thank you councilman Johansson yeah it was uh very delightful to see that chief judge uh uh come if you recall uh couple weeks ago uh she said that that it's our building and and we should do what we think's best for it and I'm like oh damn maybe we'll put that to use when we uh when we talk about the new building so I'm glad you're here to give us your opinion on uh um on buildings and um it's it's a big project both both the sheriffs and the and the cour houses um as we chatted George you were out but Suzanne and I chatted a little bit about it last week that these are Big projects we talked about pay as you go this is one of them that that we didn't sock away funds for but could you imagine if we had that much money in our reserves waiting to build a a County Courthouse people would come on glued if there was that much money sitting around earning interest and giving us value for a dollar but um so so this is a big project and and uh I'm glad it's happening on my watch I hope I hope we can get it across the uh um across the Finish Line to give give the the court U what what they need and and not delay it for another 20 years so eight councils from now look and go well nobody did anything for 40 years and now it's going to cost a billion dollars to to take care of so um um I I would like for this uh convers ation with with the sheriff and and with the uh Court to to be a collaborative one so we get it right and and it's it's flexible expandable and and can meet the needs of our future somehow so U maybe Portables like the school does would work I don't know probably not so I look forward to your conversation thank you councilman Santiago thank you Mr chairman and uh I too agree with the the majority of the comments have been made um and I I think we need to take it serious I know we put it in there for funding to be determined but um I think we need to have conversations this budget cycle and start setting aside some real money in this budget cycle to come up with a plan and one to execute um and you know I know in the past I think from from my memor right you know the legislature has played a part in some cour houses um funding and um you know depending how creative we can get you know then we may be in a unique opportunity for these next couple years to to see if they can give us some early seed money I know that's a tough one even at the legislature they usually like to have shovel ready stuff um but um I'm of the opinion we need to set aside money this year to some real money this year to start having that conversation and planning thank you Mr chair thank you um you'll let the the judges speak I will tell you that uh year ago I went and toured the uh the courthouse with uh judge Perkins and met many of the other judges that conversation has not died ever since then the deputy County Manager the county manager Ryan owski and I talk about it frequently and there are plans and and probably the other council members have discussed this with them too but there are options um other options coming up that uh I think you will hear in the in the near future so you're definitely not um forgotten um especially security issues out there we talk about those quite a bit so um with that uh councilman Dempsey yeah um this is a thin ice for me to even be talking about this since I deal with these guys and they like I said they grade my papers every day and uh but I I are we I just want to there's a lot of we're just talking about setting aside the conversation right are we actually going to earmark money through our budget for this Courthouse project is that what we're talking about doing or are we just going to talk about I'm about talking about it is great I'd love to have in-depth conversation and hear everything from the judges that we got to do but I'm just yeah I think we're talking about I'm going to let County Manager the deputy that I you they're going to bring something forward um shortly and the County council meeting okay um to discuss this may I please okay thank you uh Mr damy members of the council um based on the conversation you've already had at the deis I think what our attempt will be is to propose some uh funds for the uh next this coming fiscal year as part of this first year plan as well as out years within the fiveyear planning Horizon primarily in with respect to the design issues I have shared with the chief judge and with many council members that part of our exercise we believe that should be accomplished is an assessment of the City Island courthouse I think when it was originally started for discussion U approximately nine years ago there was an assumption that that building was in uh disrepair or poor structural uh condition in fact that is not our uh belief today we have uh strong facility management assessment of that building and we would like the opportunity to see if there are ways to improve the security components of that building and have it still serve some of the needs of the Court Administration and courtroom uh purposes in addition we believe that there will be need for an addition of courtrooms in the foxman center as well as other office needs in that area we'd like to be able to do some design work of adequate nature to provide you a possible phased approach uh that will meet the needs of the courts in the near term as well as the long term uh it is my belief and I Al defero our CFO But ultimately construction is going to be such a a significant number that debt of some sort would be the most likely method to go to construction that will require many conversations before this Council uh to make those decisions but with your agreement we'd like to include in the coming budget and in the fiveyear uh forecast options for at least getting us through these design efforts so we have a project that can be determined agreed upon with the courts and moved forward uh to construction do we have a location picked out yet because I know yes uh well city island of course uh has a location but any additions uh would be contemplated at the foxman center campus where we have had assessments done for both courtroom additions as well as office building and parking accommodations and do we have any idea what will happen to the Delan Courthouse it it remains in play and is a vital component of the overall needs of the court room spaces so we're talking about a a continued East West County uh court system where you retain uh the Delan facilities which were built about 22 years ago and complement them with the existing courtrooms with additions on the east side I just I I guess I'm just a little concerned about earmarking everything and kind of setting everything up for it to be on the east side I mean there's I believe the statute requires that the clerk's office has to be in the county seat and that would remain we're not talking about modifying or relocating any of the Delan facilities uh a major part of the Court facilities exist here in the land along with the clerk's offices and they would certainly be a critical piece of this puzzle okay well I guess I just don't understand what exactly were what what your definition of setting aside means I mean are we actually carving out $288 million out of our fiveyear budget or are we just engaging in a conversation about how this possibly no I mean again we're back this is a plan right and uh what we're talking about would be putting in the plan some money or more money for uh initial design work uh but certainly not uh design has to be based on a location and we're saying that the location is definitely going to be on the east side we're talking about a plan on how to increase the space that the courts need the existing and right and and what we've tried to do is uh look at all of our assets and the city island asset as Suzanne said before was kind of uh pushed aside nine years ago and we've again we've upgraded our game name uh as far as uh our facilities team um and we especially given the prices of construction which have exploded uh I think you have to take a look at the assets that we have and can we modify or expand or do anything with those and in addition to the asset we have at uh at foxman where we also have additional property right almost adjacent to it there's a street in between but we have uh uh our 250 North Beach Street so we have land and we have uh the ability to expand foxman uh and then we also like we said can uh take a look at what we have on the island and can it be made more secure and some of the other so you know they can also use that as an asset as well um and I will say even under the land area I think there's discussion of uh adding courtrooms uh eventually to that facility as as well so it is on a large piece of property and and uh there is ability for expansion uh in Delan if it's needed as as well and I think the the the judges and are working with us they're here today on where their needs are what their projections are and again we need just uh to be able to spend some more money though and uh initial design work um so that we can again complete uh spatial analys is and uh and then some physical uh look at those buildings to see what could be added and how we would do it um and then again that phased approach we come back and with what we say or here's what we can do uh and ask for more permission to continue with design full design and the size you're talking about that would not be a small design that would be a large probably one of our largest design projects we've ever done okay I okay I'm just I'm concerned that there might be a shift of the County Seat effectively Shifting the land from being the county seat over to the east side even more and that's just I don't see that at all in this particular case you'll have a vote on it okay all right yes sir thank you m and I put my name up and then I took it down and then again when you made that a comment uh I I want to Echo your your your your sentiment on that and that's something that I going to have on my radar too right um and I think that's important um to make sure it's a very balanced approach um with u how our constituents uh participate and what they have to do to participate in the legal process that's I'm with you and they don't grade my papers I hope not to I probably get an F like I did in school anyway so okay let's hear from uh the the judges that have come today will start with uh SE seventh Circuit Judge Terry Perkins I'm judge Perkins thank you so I want to take you back just a little bit it was my privilege to come before this body in 2015 and I came before as uh I was the existing um chief judge at that time and I was here to inform you that we're out of space count the noses count the desks we're out of space um we were able to uh actually County staff was able to obtain a grant that allowed us to retain an architect and other uh services in order to evaluate the then existing um buildings and and um courtrooms and all of that that we U had available to us and in 2017 after about two years worth of meetings and uh appearances back here um they rendered a report to us that basically said you're better off consolidating on the east side your court facilities the same way that we did on the west side and pretty much for the same reasons that there's a lot of efficiencies a lot of safety issues that can be better addressed in a unified facility as opposed to um having them scattered uh hither and Beyond now I wasn't prepared to speak to this but let me just speak briefly to um the the concern with regard to the Dand Courthouse because I've now served in both of the cour houses that we're talking about I've been in the annex I've been uh in the Justice Center and I started actually my judicial career um in here in D land um the future for D land again just as we were out of space in 2015 we're out of space now if the land is one of my favorite courthouses because it is our incubator that's where we have our senior judges and I mean that by not the th those that have retired which I'm going to be doing shortly uh but those that are more experienced and that's Al where we start a number of our junior or new judges in that regard and it's been that way ever since I've been a judge for the last 15 years so it it is a used facility we need that capability I would never Envision discontinuing or reducing the size or uh courtroom use of that building in any respect I wouldn't come before you to propose that and even if I did we could never make it work I mean unless you were building some huge thing on the east side we could never make that work now the realities of that are that one of the fastest growing areas of course is Deltona and so I don't see the the use of that am I out of time Jud judge Parkins hold on one second we've changed the rules once today I would like to allow him another yes how much time do you need another minute or two yes two minutes would that be enough any issues go thank you so um I I would expect that at some point we'd come back before you and at some point in the future uh ask to address the growth from Deltona and just on the West Side generally it's growing Florida is growing uh judge casee will talk a little bit more about that anyway after the two-year study 2017 we came back with the recommendation that it would be a unified facility I came back before um this body we had a unanimous vote that we wanted to move forward on that we were starting to allocate um some funds to look deeper at how we would design it where we would locate it was it you know one building two buildings or whatever um and that's kind of where we've been we've had Co covid since then we've had a lot of other things but that's where we've been we're out of out of space then we're out of space now our ask today is simply let's put back on the fiveyear capital um projects plan and this is a huge ask I get that I understand that completely um but before we would ask you to be spending money of that type you're going to want answers to certain questions like can we use the um the uh courthouse annex and that's where I grew up as a lawyer I love that building unfortunately you can't use it as a secure courtroom anymore you just can't it was it was developed in a different time but we want to look at that that's going to cost some money to look at that what do we do with the Justice Center how much will that cost that's going to cost some money to look at that so before we ask you to start making some decisions we're going to ask you to spend a little M bit of money so that we can evaluate these options and provide that to you so I I I want to tell you when I came back before you in 2000 not you but in 200 17 and it was a unanimous decision that we needed to move forward the estimate you can correct me if I'm wrong but the estimate was between $120 million for the Consolidated facility it's twice that now four or five years from now it'll be twice that so Now's the Time to look at it that's all what I'm asking you to do thank you and it's good seeing you thank you uh chief judge Leah case good afternoon sort of right in the middle thank you uh thank you for having me um and I want to talk first about you know uh the court system is a Cornerstone of Law and Order right I mean that's kind of all we have left now I feel like um and it's really important and our courtrooms in the annex are not secure they're not and anybody that tells you they are they're not telling you the truth and it's not the judges it's not the judges I'm the most secure person in that Courthouse because I got a bayth next to me I have a um a video here that I want to show you about walking inmes through the courthouse this is justy hiso there are children on the hallways there are people on the HS because the courth an is actually a live video that you see somebody being walked down there are people there are litigants going to other courtrooms there's Court staff and he lunges at a reporter okay the only reason we haven't had an issue is because the sheriff's office has done such a great job they're Shackled they come down the stairs if you got inmates and they go in through the front of the courtroom wherever courtroom they're going on first second third floor wherever they are there's no back doors there's no elevators so they're Shackled coming down the stairs especially if they're violent um so it's not the judge's safety that I'm concerned about it's the Public Safety that I'm concerned about um so that's the issue um the courthouse staff the doors open into the ja's offices anybody walks in and out there we've always been concerned family law this councilman Dempsey can tell you that's the most volatile um substance area you can have in the law you think it's criminal it's not we've had instances where we've had people fighting in the hallway right next to people waiting to go into court somewhere else it is and and you won't see it unless you're there every day and you're seeing this happen so the annex is not secure anymore okay it it hasn't been for a long time but the big thing everybody seems to really hook on I'm out of room I just got a study they do it every they say five years it ends up being eight or nine because of the cost this circuit I'm told I need five more circuit judges I need a Bia County court judge and a St John's County court judge I got room up there I got no room here no room so my my ask of you is to to really put our money where our mouth is and get something done I I leave it up to you you guys do the study what you want to do but the annex is not a viable Courthouse anymore for criminal for family it's not secure the way it is now so I'm asking you to put the courthouse project in the five years Capital needs work plan I'm asking you to direct your staff to retain an architectural firm with the proper experience I just tour the Jacksonville Courthouse you guys should do that it is the most secure building I've ever seen um an architectural firm with the proper experience and credentials to work with the county develop a plan so that we can get going on this and what you all decide you know that's your your your business I want to be part of the conversation and I want you to hear from us and our concerns but I'm here to tell you we need to do what we should have done nine years ago and get this on the on the planning uh board so thank you very much thank you judge will you wait for questions yeah before I go to the last speaker I are all three questions for the judges mine are okay uh then I'll we'll have uh Vice chair Kent and then Don Dempsey go but I think they have questions for you judge case so I just briefly I had a tour of the NX I'm actually a huge fan you showed me your your first office and I don't know if there's a better view but you mentioned that you're not concerned about the judge's safety in there because you have a bayth but I want you to talk a little bit about because when we were outside I asked some specific things about well hold on where do you park and anybody could be waiting around the hedges and not trying to you know fearmonger because I blast people for that I'm not doing that what I don't want to have is play Monday Morning Quarterback and something horrific happen to a judge um and that and it could be solved Maybe by having a couple of deputies escort you all out to your vehicles and and be out there waiting when you all arrive in the morning I I think we can solve it um but you didn't touch on that and I think I think it's an important piece I I will touch on that I guess I feel a little defensive because I don't want people to think we're up here asking that because we're afraid for our security but there is a problem with the judge of security coming in and out of that courthouse uh the BFFs uh leave at four o'clock all Deputy staff leaves at four o'clock there is not a deputy on scene after four o'clock so especially when I was in civil I was there till 600 and 6:30 every night walking to my car at the annex by myself in the dark with my gun in my purse with my hand on my gun um we've had I there's a judge and I won't name the person I'm sure that she would share it but um had a stalker somebody she was ruling against in family law waiting outside in the uh where we park in the annex if you choose to park in the marked area um waiting for her she'd have to call security to get rid of that person before she came up another person came down under a car and it was either minutes before or minutes after an armed robbery occurred right there um because it was at night we worked you know we work late sometimes and um so the Inn out the uh the way the annex is we have an East entrance where the employees the judges can come in but I'm on the third floor the only way to go to the third floor is through the stairwell or the public ever elevator where everybody goes when You' just ruled against somebody in family law and taking their kids away they are not happy so you don't want to go up in that public uh elevator all the time I took some of these kids away in dependency and in McDonald's I'm getting confronted about it so you never know where you're going to be confronted so we go up the stairway three flights of stairs and they're very steep I don't know if you got to Traverse them when you were there it's where the inmates come down so you know most of the time we look up to make sure the inmates aren't coming down but you never know you get stuck in there half to go to the side when the inmates are coming down so we've work tried to work around but no it's not secure for us either but I'm talking about in the courthouse when we're going to our courtroom and our Chambers we have a bayth assigned to us the public does not the people waiting to hear from us the kids in dependency sitting there because they've just been taken from their homes they're waiting to see where they're going they don't they don't thank thank you for that and and I'll I'll just end with this and that is and I mentioned it I am a fan of of that location and I think it was it was it served its purpose when it was built that being said I think and I haven't heard you say no if family law was not there if criminal law was not there and we had a plan for the judges safely to get in and out we could come up with staff could help come up with a plan to still make that location work and look at other options as far as um the Justice Center Etc thank you thank thank you uh councilman Dempsey you look good today judge have you lost weight you been working out does he do this in court um I talked to judge Perkins the other a couple times actually and um I share your sentiment about City Island my wife as you know is a judge and she served over there on City Island for I believe it was a couple years before judge Kelly was nice enough to swap with her to let her come back to the land but I in 34 years of practice in law 33 I have witnessed the inmate issue where the the hallways are crowded and you do have inmates being escorted you know linked up even sometimes and right past the civilans in the hallways which are kind of narrow so there is an issue there I totally agree with you um but as I think judge Perkins pointed out he knows that I'm a a tight wat I drive an old beat up rusted out pickup truck I don't like to spend money where we don't have to and I personally think all County employees should be driving the same type of rust bucket that I drive but that's another subject but I guess my point is like is there like I've been thinking about this would what would be the issue with moving the public defender's office in the state attorney's office because they take up half of that you know available space for courtrooms in the J in the foxman center foxman yeah because we've got I think we all agree we have good security we have a sally port yes but not great for instance the foxman center there's an issue with prisoner transport in between the courtrooms and having juveniles we don't have a space I have to clear the courthouse of any inmates when I have a juvenile come in addition if we have anybody in a wheelchair they have to come there's no elevator they have to come through the front where the public is we had somebody that had some sort of condition in court the other day and an inmate passed out or whatever got in a wheelchair they're pushing him out the front door and he jumps out of the wheelchair you know I mean they got him but what I'm saying is this is in the foxman Cent issues there too this is in the foxman center judge case can you pull the microphones into I'm so sorry oh two of them oh okay um but there's issues at the foxman center the two courtrooms two and four are useless we don't use use them that's the small two the small ones that have maybe one or two benches I can't have an arraignment there I can't have a pre-trial there because what happens when you if you keep all the public out the defendants and their family the lawyers then have to go out and talk to them so I get nothing done here what H you know what it happens in a big courtroom the lawyers are talking to uh the private lawyers are talking to the assistant State Attorneys when their case isn't up they're working it out and so they get called Next you can't do anything in those two courtrooms except what I've done is assigned somebody that's already H already has a jury picked so we have six or seven juror people a an essentially non-hostile trial you know a low-level trial because there's no room for anybody or security um and that's what I use those courtrooms for other than that they stay empty complet complely useless I agree um so but if we if you revamped it could it work that's what I want the I want somebody that's experienced somebody that's experienced in courthouse building and assessing I don't even know the words I want somebody that knows what they're doing to look at what we have and what what we need I mean I'll tell I'll tell you guys because I deal with I've been in the the Annex last week I was in the uh City Island last week and I mean it's yeah I mean everything she's saying is true um something needs to be done with it but in my opinion but now there is a zoom isn't the Supreme Court coming out with something about Zoom requiring the courts to use zoom more so than they Happ yes but there's there's also there's an obstacle to that and you will understand this because you did criminal defense Zoom is never going to get my case resolved you have to have right yes you're right right I have to have the defendant there I have to have the defense attorney and I have to have the prosecutor just like doing off-site first appearances where there's a state attorney assigned a public defender assigned they don't have any skin in the game that's not getting resolved at a zoom first appearance somewhere I need those people in front of me to resolve cases I have 50% resolved cases at my arraignment um docket CU Chitwood and I talked about this because he was talking about maybe not having to transport people and I said listen we can do it for other places but not arraignments so Zoom is coming in but the defendants have a right to be present in person and they and they don't have to do Zoom so it's usually the lawyers that want zoom and dependency when we're taking somebody's rights away they have a right to be there even if they've committed first-degree murder they have a right to be present when we're taking their kids away so Zoom is is really good for civil like I can see that in an assessment where we talk about civil um not needing the courtroom space as much except for trials because the hearings can mostly be done by zoom and I don't know family I would think the same you don't need courtrooms for family necessarily for the trials so that is an aspect that has changed in nine years the zoom but it's not as um sweeping as far as not having anybody in the cour houses okay and I guess the reason for this discussion is just hopefully you guys are picking up where I'm coming from we do there is a need I mean there's more judges coming population's grown I I know you guys are short of courtrooms but I I hate what I don't want to see happen judge is have basically all the judicial system because if I don't know if you remember you know 30 years ago the big fight East versus West no all this I don't want that and we're not looking for that we love D land everybody fights to be over in D land so we love D land we want D land we want what Delan has on the east side for our East Side cases so we want we want the secure Courthouse that functions well and the room to grow just like Delan did over here we're not I'm not looking to take it I we couldn't do it physically we couldn't take everybody but when judge Perkins was saying about 2015 when they talked about a unified Courthouse that they're talking about unified I'm sorry to interrupt I'm talking about unified from the East side the the annex we have court going on at the sunshine mall traffic court at the sunshine Mall um that's what he's talking about he's not talking about unified West and East a long time ago there was a before they built the Delan Courthouse I think it was that they talked about putting a courthouse by by the jail right was I think it was the Branch jail too that they didn't we don't like branches or annexes everything supposed to be in the county seat and the both both cities the land they Tona they nobody likes that the land wants its Downtown Courthouse it's good for the you know the businesses down there Daytona wants their Downtown Courthouse so and and as you know sometimes lawyers just practice on one side or the other you both sides but a lot of lawyers just practice they live on the West Side they just take cases on the West Side they don't ever travel to the east side so I'm not looking or advocating at all to merge into one gigantic Courthouse okay what I would like and I don't know if it's economically feasible I would like to have one courthouse in the east side Daytona just encompassing what's over in Daytona now giving me some more room to add some judges so as far as the clerk's filings so if a if a divorce case is filed on the west side it stays on the west side if a criminal action happens on the west side it stays on the West Side Mr chairman oh I think we're getting a little off topic with where cour cases are filed uh in relation to the CIP and and buildings if we can get back on task please okay I think you're on you're on task this is a this is a helpful conversation yeah the study that you're asking staff to do is relating to just consolidating the whole East Side yes court system yes and leaving the West Side alone okay absolutely I'm sorry for that misunderstanding absolutely yeah I think when judge Perkins said unified it kind of scared me a little bit thinking we're going to lose our West Side system I me really and and we like that the lawyers really like that division it works well for the the the L against the public if you live in Deltona you don't want to drive to Daytona but if I end up with a situation where I don't have enough judges and where's the space and then I don't even get any more judges because I don't have any space I have to send them all up north then we're in real big trouble okay all right well that clarified a lot for me thank you judge let me inter we have one more councilman and one more member of the public but I I want to give you some hope because the staff is is already there with what you're asking for and I think you're going to hear it in a uh soon coming meeting that we will approve money for a competent architect experienced with security to evaluate our system U we know that it's it's an issue I know one well I'm I'm not going to continue I just wanted to let you let you know that that um you've you've already been heard and they're already U discussing it and planning and evaluating Architects okay thank you no thank you um David Santiago did you I just wanted to bring make a comment make us a comment and bring us to a vote I first I want to thank the chief judge for being here thank you and judge Perkins nice to see you I think the last time we met our good friend David Hood was still with us so it's been a while so thank you for being here um and I just wanted to acknowledge that judge Z brano took me for a tour and you know it's interesting that you know to hear the the the different things but you don't know it until you really see it and what he did good was I think we started in the annex and I'm sure he's very calculating what he did so he did a good job he's a smart man and then we got to go to uh the other location uh justice fo Center and though it wasn't perfect I noticed that but it was a very uh distinct difference in the safety um so we walk through all those and the stair the stairs going down and I seen it and if I had something going on there that I had to be in that and or my family or something and I had to see what U alleged criminal has to come come through my family um it's not good scenario I'll just say this you've been heard at least for I think me and and several of my council members are are committed um to putting money in this budget so that we get a good study I know there's been studies in the past that haven't really looked at what they the the true needs are um but I think you have U support here at least I think the majority and especially me so thank you thank you sir I move to approve the uh CIP as presented we have one more member of the public that just sat through all this Karen Clark you will have exactly three minutes no more okay come and take a minute thank you Judge Karen clock I live in Glennwood um I was around with Diane matusik when the original Courthouse was in its infancy before it was even done she went to a lot of meetings and the clerk of the court needs to know how much space they need for the files she told them x amount of thousands and thousands of square footage because she rented buildings County rented buildings all over belocia to store these records because they didn't have a facility well come along this white elephant that they made the people that were involved and everybody is Smart City Commission The Architects everybody that had us say yes this is a good design the only they didn't look at it was raw footage that was presented to them you got a raw footage building wall to wall ceiling to basement no stairs no walls no bathroom nothing and that's how that originally started and it was until after it was built Diane matusic actually had to have more buildings to rent for the files for the court system so you can have all of this done and your experienced person looking into design everything for the courts look make sure that it's not rough footage that's it thank you David Santiago you wanted to make a motion thank you Mr chair uh before I make that motion I think I gotta cify if we wanted to if I wanted to propose in this motion money set aside in the plan for uh uh study as was described what number should that be to our facilities director for that number and I know it's just a guy construction engineer or the county manager and and while I think uh Tad and Jim can give you some ideas I think we'd like to come back because I think as a team we'd like to get together I want to make sure the numbers we put in the first year of your budget meets our needs and then plan for the formal design in engineering phase but I think I would Echo that that rather than set aside a number I think the direction would be to to figure out a plan and then we'll bring that back and work it into the 5year forecast when not not in 22 years but no the next meeting your next meeting is a fiveyear forecast so if we we just need that amount of time as long as we have direction to put put something in it uh it might be better than just just say that and then we'll update you in the next meeting what that is in the forecast versus trying to put these guys on the on this too much on the spot because I could see them right now the smoke coming out of their ears thank you George Mr chairman I moved to approve the uh CIP plan as presented with direction of staff to come back at the next meeting with an amendment to include recommended amounts for the study for the court system second perect perfect motion to approve with uh the understanding that the next meeting the Court's system will be evaluated that motion is from David Santiago in a second I think was from Vice chair Kent and I still have uh Jake Johansson your name is still up would you yes sir like to speak to the issue yeah I have a question just for clarity um so Mr Santiago said as presented what I thought I was hearing is that this is the Daytona Court M complex master plan or maybe a master plan for all complexes I don't know know but I currently show fiscal year 20 4 25 and 2526 is as zero so CIP as presented means there's no money in there is that correct or is it under a different line item I I think my motion is also to propose an amendment to this at the next approve the CIP has presented I just want to make sure we have it listed as a project in the column for fund to be identified at way down at the bottom yeah and we understand that I concur with that we're looking to move some of that to set aside funding to address uh what's been discussed here today as as long as that's what the motion and the second is I'm I'm good with that while we're clarifying as mentioned before based on consensus the other modification would be to move the motocross track from general fund to Echo thank you councilman Dempsey yeah I'm not going to be here at the next one I don't know if it could be on the July second one by any chance is that oh there's no July second meeting trust us I'll just have to trust you yeah can you zoom in that's okay the courts have zoom I just learned so if you're in the courthouse they can maybe let you it okay uh motion on the floor by David Santiago second by Troy Kent to um Don your name's still up you okay I thought maybe you thought of um to approve the CPI um with the understanding that we're bringing the uh court system back with a proposed proposal from County staff uh at the next meeting chairman Vice chair K thank you and and U Mr Dempsey if I'm just telling you use it don't use it but if I knew I wasn't going to be at a meeting or something I wanted to participate with I would write out what I wanted to say I would send it to the county manager with instructions to read it into the public record at that time I'm trying to help you with your voice yep he do doesn't know what they're going to propose yet though already knows what what he's going to say though okay he does know the proposal but I I think he knows what he wants to say okay uh all in favor say I I I any opposed and item 11 passes 6 to zero thank you for uh coming in check with staff here it is that's what I'm waiting to hear from okay this is probably a good time to take a break because the next one could item could take some time as well so It's 12:24 we will break until 1 p.m. e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] he [Music] [Music] welcome to the vucha County council meeting the meeting will begin in 10 minutes [Music] [Music] [Music] he he [Music] a [Music] [Music] he [Music] [Music] he [Music] w w [Music] [Music] [Music] welcome to the vucha County council meeting the meeting will begin in 5 minutes [Music] a [Music] [Music] [Music] welcome to the vucha County council meeting the meeting will begin in 2 minutes [Music] [Music] for [Music] spe for Maybe w okay we will resume the uh June 4th 2024 valuch County council meeting at 103 starting with item item 12 discussion and Direction on the use of body cameras by code enforcement officers uh director Irvin Good afternoon Kay Irvin director of growth and Resource Management um County Council identified on multiple occasions where they felt it was in staff's best interest to research uh the ability for our Code Enforcement Officers to utilize body warn cameras similar to what you see police officers and sheriff's deputies utilize in carrying out their duties um the county attorney's office took that uh did the research to make sure that we were consistent with state law and one of the things that was discovered is that um first and foremost uh how law enforcement officers and code enforcement officers are not treated the same by Florida Statutes specifically chapter 943 of Florida Statutes uh provides for mandatory two-party consent for non-law enforcement activities so therefore code enforcement officers who are not sworn law enforcement officers are not granted the exemption that law enforcement officers are entitled to the issue comes into what occurs if a code enforcement officer invert does not follow the proper procedures for two-party consent at this point what our research has shown that they could be subject to a third degree felony as well as being personally liable if there was a lawsuit to come out of it your county staff is here to go through these different options and so what we're trying to do at this point is um follow your direction because we agree that the body warn cameras do provide our Code Enforcement Officers with a valuable tool we agree with that 100% at the same point we want to make sure that we're able to operate within the confines of what state law allows without putting our officers at personal risk as well so we are looking at what options are available operationally also just for mainly uh cost issues and we don't know the final numbers yet the records that are required to be maintained for code enforcement is tied to five years after compliances found some of your Code Enforcement cases can go on for many many years upwards of 20 25 years so we would have to pay for additional storage of that video and audio recordings so we are again facing a situation that you know the dis differences in how code enforcement and law enforcement is treated as creating some concerns from the staff perspec perspective we believe that there's three basic options um right now uh you could U direct staff to uh as part of our legislative efforts next legislative session seek to have the rules changed so that non-law Enforcement Officers such as code enforcement or even your Animal Control Officers would be entitled to the same exemptions that currently are allowed to law enforcement officers and if that occurs then we could implement this at that point in time we could do a combination where you direct us to do that and then also tell us to do the research and come up with the necessary policies and operational requirements so that code enforcement officers are told how they are to proceed and if a uh property owner or person who they're calling upon says no you cannot record me they have to cease and they have to follow those procedures to ensure compliance with the two-party consent um and we can uh also at that same point in time go forward with trying to do the legislative delegation request to have the rules changed right now we're here to gather direction from you as to how you want us to proceed I know that Mike and Sabrina and Russ have gone through this with a fine tooth comb say they would be able to address any of your questions about the statutory requirements and how we can address those thank you clay uh questions from Council uh councilman Santiago I'll ask a question um thank you Mr chair um clay do we know there's have been historically or in the most recent years any discussion or attempt to include uh Code Enforcement Officers under that uh exemption I'm not aware those but Sabrina yeah I know it's a legal question I'm sorry clay to throw that at you it's a it's a the exemption for law enforcement came about in 2016 when the BWC statute was actually put in place uh since 2016 we're not aware of any expansion of that exemption to other uh types of individuals who are not law enforcement thank you thank you for that explanation Mr chair I know we're in questions but I I move that we table this item indefinitely there's too much risk for us and for our employees to do this until the state law is changed okay Mr Santiago moves that we table this indefinitely is there a second I'll second for discussion Vice chair Kent makes a second on the motion to table indefinitely um uh questions or uh councilman Robbins yeah I just uh discussion with uh councilman San dieago you good with that Jeff yes um David I I think there's a way to I think there's a way to to to get here you know we have risk in everything that we do uh in my tenure here I've seen accidents with D6 dozers out of the landfill right there's risk there in operating um we have liability and responsibility uh for employees rear ending Vehicles fender benders uh which we're trained on equipment um it's no difference than accidents that happen on the beach you have training what to do what to look out for so so there's liability in everything that we do I think what what uh this comes down to is an equalizer when I say that a measure to protect both and empower the public and Empower our staff and empower the process it's like compared to like putting a lock on it keeps everybody keeps everything kosher in my opinion um and above board um if this isn't strengthening Liberty of the people I don't know what is and that's just being honest with you um you know I don't like being under the thumb of government and not having to say so and and and and this can be treated um and and and Don can attest this no different than a consensual encounter on the street when it comes to hey you could stop at any time I don't have to answer your questions I don't have to let you in my pockets you know under certain guidelines this could be no different hey you know what I don't feel like you I'm not going to sign that so you go back to what we were do what what they've always done hey get off the property okay there's a process for that what this does I think is just empowers the the people uh a little bit more um is it gonna uh may make things a little bit harder during that process for for the government absolutely that's the point let's not forget about that that's the point I would like to see us come back with um policy in my opinion to do this try it out I think the training can be as simple as a piece of paper or a card that you keep in your pocket I've seen it uh in in in in uh other instances um but uh I think it's a a a good uh policy and um we can also put as a legislative uh request because even if it say no one picks up the ball on the on the state level hey guess what we're doing something good in my opinion at a local level and keeping it you know we know I think we know what's best for rolua but I'd like to hear what a couple others have to say I've always liked this idea can I respond Mr chair uh yes and then you'll but you might have multiple responses after yeah I'll just say Danny generally speaking I agree with you I think I I voiced support for it in the past um for the for the principle and the main reason of exactly what you said where I where I changed my opinion um after meeting with staff and getting the analysis and deep diving in that the legislature found it necessary to create this protection exemption for law enforcement um that protects them I wouldn't want to be a code enforcement officer without that protection they make a mistake and they didn't either get consent or something happened along that they're liable if I'm correct by a misdemeanor or a felony can someone clarify that for me personally liable it's a third degree felony uh and if if they do not get consent if they make a mistake and they do not get consent and they start recording they're liable for third degree felony correct plus a civil action plus a civil action who in their right mind would want to be a code enforcement officer I'll let you go in there but the principle I agree with we have to afford those employees those protections and fight for them before we put them people make human mistakes and I I can't put that burden on the officers but the same the same David in what I was getting at earlier if there's negligence found found there's got to be some level of responsibility uh to any of our operators you know we had a and I don't like bringing up bad things but we had somebody ran over at the landfill by by a by a dozer if there wasn't some negl I mean accidents happen things do happen but I don't think it is something to what do we just shut shut everything down we have people on the beach you know I I I I don't there's risk with everything that we yeah I I understand the reason why I'll finish with this Mr Cher If I may I understand the reason but the the risks to the employee to the county are just too much to rise to the level to surpass the small amount of complaints I think we've gotten from code enforcement interactions we've gotten some people said he said she said that's why I like the idea but those were so small do they rise to the level that I want to put these people In Harm's Way um by jail time and Financial Risk I'm not there until we get the protections I'm sorry I just I can't pass it I'm done Mr chair let's go uh let me see if anybody else has a question because this is really a debate it's good debate but um does anybody have questions for Staff first Don Dempsey yeah um Sabrina is this under the wiretapping statute that you're referring to it is it's um 9:34 it it's 9:34 it's the wire tapping statute where you can't intercept an oral conver ation recorded right I think that I don't think they have to get permission they just have to know they're being recorded uh it's actually the legal test that it's a two-part test you have to have an expectation of privacy subjectively and you also have to have a reasonable expectation that the uh society would observe so there are cases that um there's a realm so for instance there's a case that if you're in your private home and having a private conversation obviously um that would violate it but if you're in public and you don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy you you would not violate that law however if you're in public and let's say for instance in the family law context you and I are exchanging the child and it's just the two of us and we're having a private conversation on the rideway in our car and I'm surreptitiously recording you well you had an expectation of privacy because it's just the two of us rent a car we not in the public right but if if you and I are on the side of the street trying to buy drugs from a drug dealer there's not that s we may have an expectation that our conversation with the drug dealers private but there's case laww that says that's not reasonable for us to have an expectation of privacy when we're committing a crime so there's cases on this particular statute that start from you're you have a reasonable expectation of privacy so you're fine but if society's not going to recognize your reasonable expectation when you're committing a crime you're not so the cases are there's a spectrum of them so that that is what you're you would have to do that analysis and I can give you the case sites if you want yeah I'm I'm familiar with the wire tapping stat I just was thinking there's different levels that we could do here potentially right I mean obviously when you go into somebody's house in your recording that's one thing because there's an expect expectation of privacy in your home in your fourth amendment protections and stuff like that but if you're at a commercial business and you're doing a code enforcement inspection of I think we had the the the shed person or you're walking around then that wouldn't necessar especially if the person knew they were being recorded right well so there's a case uh commercial uh a location so um I have an expectation of privacy in a commercial setting if I believe that my conversation's still private so uh that particular one was um I believe they were models in a dressing room and they were being recorded and they didn't know I mean you know that case so even if you're in a commercial place I can still have an expectation of privacy it's just you have to do that two-part analysis is it reasonable in does society recognize that reasonableness so it it's not a location based analysis it's not that simple okay um all right yeah I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to talk to you about this beforehand I hate to do it for the first time here but it's okay okay um the only thing I'm talk thinking about I'm not in favor of body warn cams in general because it's a lot of Maintenance and stuff but I I would like but I do understand why we need protection and I guess the question is who we're trying to protect are we trying to protect the citizens or the employee the code enforcement officer from a wrongful allegation I'm in favor and this is if we could do this I'd be I'd be in favor of just having it to where all code enforcement interactions can be recorded by the citizen and it's admissible in court all phone calls to the county between code enforcement and the citizen could be recorded by the citizen put the onus on the citizen to record these conversations and say well the code enforcement officer you know cussed me out and or he told me I could do this now you're saying I can't well do you happen to have a recording of that do you have a recording of that conversation put the burden on them to store because there is a lot of money um incurred trying to store all this stuff for five years which I think would be quite a bit can can you respond to that is that an option that to just is there a legal conflict with the citizen recording uh well if the citizen advises that that they're recording no I mean because then the citizen is advised I mean it would have to be a policy decision so is the citizen is the citizen liable if he doesn't ask for permission S I may the yeah so the the community the wiretap statute applies to the public you know unless you're Exempted out which we would be in this capacity of the public I would argue now that any citizen could politely ask a code enforcement officer any inspector hey do you mind if I record you sir ma'am and you know code enforcement officer could say yes that's fine um there's also I think a recent fifth uh DCA case that just came out that talked about uh basically it was about a law enforcement officer and an individual uh kept calling and uh in the uh Sheriff's capacity said that these were like um nuis nuisance complaints complaining about trespassing and the individual ended up recording the conversation with the sheriff's deputy and later submitted that as evidence and they hadn't told the deputy they were doing it and so the court opinion came out and said you know basically when you're on duty you're on duty you can your your perise should be you're being recorded you can be recorded so it wasn't actually deemed a violation of the Privacy Act because the officer was operating in their Duty their capacity at that time so I I think you could already you know a citizen could already record somebody ask their permission do it right now I I don't think that requires a policy from the county do we two things do we have a policy for that what I see video on social media every day of police being recorded are you're saying that's illegal no there is a there's a supreme United States Supreme Court case that you have a First Amendment right to actually um uh video officers in the public doing their public duty so that is a different Supreme Court case the First Amendment right case um and that would be the public and as long as they don't interfere with the officer they have a right to video that officer actually doing his job in the public that would not be the same for the for the uh code enforcement officer or an animal control officer well they they go into private areas that's and that's again a and so it becomes the test again is not where you are it's the expectations of the parties that are involved so um Animal Control goes into people's homes a lot they go into your backyards where the animals are there's higher expectations of privacies in those private areas code enforcement could do the same uh they have go to your front door to knock on your door to make an encounter with you you have an expectation of privacy on your own front porch so these officers often go out of the public into the private area so um they are going to have to make that determination before you know they they record anyone does this person have an expectation of privacy and is their expectational reasonable so you know that's what you they would have to make a determination every time did you want to add to that Michael Dyer yeah she did fine thanks I can just say this operationally from our Code Enforcement Officers every time they step onto private property they expect to be recorded because nowadays with the amount of ring cameras and other private surveillance that's easily accessible from Best Buy or whatever electronic store there's already understanding that they will be recorded by the private property owner when we are conducting a an inspection and I can tell you the majority of the time our officers will sit there and say fine you want to record me you can record me uh the main reason is is that uh we don't see necessarily anything at that point being done that would be detrimental to our operations because we've trained them on how to carry out the inspections and last question from from me do you have an idea of I know this is part of the uh of the investigation and what you would bring back but do you have an idea of how you would get consent councilman Robbins mentioned card it seems like it could be that simple uh tell me legally the best way to get the consent would be with a written waiver a form that the the person would have to sign and F fill out the problem is the distinction would be with um law enforcement who has the exemption the second their policy goes the second they step out of the vehicle everything's recorded our officers couldn't record until they actually had uh some sort of written consent okay because they couldn't record the consent because they're already recording without consent so okay that that would be the step that they would have to take that would be operationally different between law enforcement okay I'll hold rest till comments I councilman Johansson did you have questions yes sir thank you um I guess my my question may may have already been answered but the discussion was about a reasonable expectation of privacy and and I think clay pointed out that that um there's ring cameras and everybody assumes they're being recorded when they go into a private business but I I would think when a public official in any capacity enters a private home that you you as a public official don't have any any it's not private when you're entering in somebody else's home you're you're actually encroaching right and that's that's kind of how all these folks get away with it and their cars by by uh um uh the police officers but there's no reasonable expect ation I wouldn't think so as as a code enforcement officer or or a building inspector which will be the next step um uh we the second we step on somebody else's privacy to inspect we lose our expectation of privacy I would think um um and and for that matter everybody should think that there's never an expectation of privacy anymore except for when you're in your own home um so what I need to know is and maybe this question goes better to to uh Danny is well first of all clay H how what drives this item have we had a lot of problems with he said she saids or or physical or verbal altercations with code enforcement there have been over the last eight years that I'm aware of a handful of situ situations where property owners have indicated either a code enforcement officer trespassed or there's been allegations of harassment um I can say that it's is it more than 10% of our total code enforcement case no um but there are situations where we have had as I said a property owner complained to a council member that a code enforcement officer came on their property without permission or that a code enforcement officer has been harassing and so again I would say that's probably less than 10% of the total some would say anything a code enforcement officer does is harassment right I mean you're not there to make people happy and give them a a lollipop I I want to reiterate our staff wants to have any kind of support and I'll give you a real world examp example all of our code enforcement officers have GPS tracking on their vehicles right we know where they are how fast they're going because there's been allegations of some of our Code Enforcement Officers speeding we've been able to go back and verify with that data that that that complaint was incorrect so we are in a mode where we want to have this tool available but at the same point in time I can tell you my staff is concerned with the intricacies of some of the legal aspects of this that could they be subject personally to a lawsuit or a third deegree felony that is the main concern that I've heard from our staff members now if the council says go ahead and do it obviously we're going to follow exactly what your direction is going to be got it and Sabrina if if our if our Code Enforcement Officers chose not to use them or if refuse to use them for fear of of legal action um they would just be disciplined if that's what we chose to do but there's no legal ramifications of not using them right if I understand your question yes there's no legal ramifications of not right right and and that applies to not that go down the rabbit hole but that applies for for law enforcement as well right if they if they don't that that is a that is a a Administration Administration of issue yes it's my my understanding for law enforcement is um in order for them to use it they have to have a written policy and procedure so there would be implications in their written policy and procedure great uh that's it for a question sir thank you before I go to him uh Mr Santiago Deputy County attorney Russ Brown sir I just was going to clarify that just the reason this items on the agenda is Council directed staff to bring it back so I just wanted to clarify that's the answer to the question okay uh councilman Santiago question for you I'm sorry forgot your name I apologize Sabrina Saina tell tell tell the council about this law enforcement exemption what what is it okay so um there's actually a statute just for the use of bodyw warn cameras by law enforcement it's in 943 so it sets forth uh all of the sorts of things that they have to do to actually use uh body warn camera in their daily activities and in that there's a simple sentence that says their use shall be exempt from 934 it is probably one of the simplest pieces of legislation I've ever seen and uh so it just says that they're completely exempt do we know why they asked for it uh in the legislative history it doesn't really go into why they asked for it but the legislative history basically says so that they do not have to ask for consent when they're using the equipment that it's essentially it's all it says in legislative history and by that exemption it also exempts them from any felony it exempts them from everything from any any sort of criminal civil any kind of um issues under the wiet tapping statute okay and under under that scenario the uh felony um they're subjected to up to how much time in prison it's a third degree felony so a third degree felony is up to five years in prison or I'm Rusty on my fines probably about a 5,000 or $1,000 fine so I hate Place scenarios but I will in this case so I'm a code enforcement officer I go to some 's house and this policy is enacted and I press my button start recording and I forgot to get them the consent to sign if they wanted to press charges on me technically if the state attorney wanted to prosecute I get it the there's different parameters to that I could go to jail up to three years five years five jail up to five years because I forgot to press the get the consent but but as Mr Dempsey would tell you you'd have to have a really bad score sheet to go five years on a third degree felony you probably score probation well look what look what they're doing to the president up to five years probation is more likely yeah um see that that thank you and and and I love the idea there is just a bridge too far for me to Cross to put our our employees in that liability I struggle there I I wish somebody can give me an answer that so solves that for me just couldn't do it thank you Mr councilman Robbins uh thank you chair we still questions yeah I have a question U um Sabrina sorry if as it stands right now if a code enforcement officer doesn't follow policy of the county say they're supposed to go to the front door say they go around the back door say they go in a house say they do something outside the scope of their Duty can they personally be held liable for their actions or negligence when it came to follow following policy so and this every person has free will so if I go if I'm a code enforcement officer I go to someone's home and I commit an intentional Tor I actually assault you intentionally um I can be personally liable because I went outside of my scope as an employee outside of my duty so yes a code enforcement officer could always be personal liable if they did an intentional act outside of their scope of their employment if they stay inside of the scope of their employment then they would still be protected as doing their job and they would have the same protections as the county and it would be the same as if the county all of us did that action so what you described in the initial question was Fourth Amendment search and seizure whether or not I have permission to go where I go whether or not I did what I did so typically if you violate someone's Fourth Amendment there's not a personal or private cause of action for that it's just suppression of evidence and actually circling back to this if you violate 934 with a wire tap it has the same automatic suppression of all evidence at all levels and and it carries Jael time sir and it carries Jael time on top of the suppression of evidence and yes the 934 has a lot of penalties in it I you know it's one of it's a it it's Florida's very strong privacy act sure so it has suppression of evidence included in it specifically it has a civil component and a criminal component what scenarios right now could our people face the same in terms of um uh Li uh jail time is there any instances that you can think of as an attorney in your experience where one of our people for instance code enforcement can experience the same ramifications as it stands right now than if they were wearing a right now the only one I can think of is if you go outside of your scope of employment and you do an intentional act which could be which could be anything well the most likely one is a a battery or an assault something I do that I personally assaulted you but could which isn't my job but could just hypothetically could a code enforcement intentionally go and do something outside of his scope and say you know what oh I forgot I forgot I wasn't supposed to go in the house okay whatever you know can can they still be held to so so as far as a a trespass so let's say that they and again that is an intentional act they did outside of their employment it's still a trespass it's the same analysis so if I trespassed you know that I'm not supposed to trespass in my job so that's outside of my job and I wasn't supposed to trespass and I think what's different here here uh you agreee with everything SAA said I mean it's your choice we're just telling you if you did move forward there's some things we'd have to to prepare and training is that this would be a job requirement I mean we're putting this on our employees so yes somebody could do something stupid outside the course of their employment and there could be consequences for that but here they' be doing their job and um could make a mistake um it just you know it's interesting when you look at it I not every State's the same I mean Florida's got some pretty strict privacy laws in some other states this would not be a discussion at all you could just do it so I think part of it is in looking at the history and the police officers at in 2016 I think this is an example technology has just gotten is grown beyond the law at this point you know if you did if this was something important to council regardless of where they implement it now or not um I think there might be some other jurisdictions that'd be interested in having the statute changeed to expand it because the technology I think is just so much more available than it used to be uh and probably less it's still an expense to it but I'm sure the longer technology around the cheaper it goes and some agencies may be looking at it thank you m SL Council I I think there's no doubt that it has its purpose and the time and the place that it that it adds protections I don't I don't think any I know all yall I don't think any of y'all would disagree with that I think it it's helped out our Corrections uh I think it's helped out uh our law enforcement across the country and everything just as Mr dard said because technology is where it is not saying our people are doing anything wrong but U because they're not um but uh I think it's appropriate uh David at at at this time time uh I'd agree with you and and i' I'd be more inclined to even though I would um like to do it at a local level but at the minimum if we can all agree to maybe put as a legislative priority and forward at that I'd be amicable uh to that because I don't I don't sense the tea leaves you know um but I'd still like to see if our state guys can what what they how they feel about it thank you uh the the reason that I was uh for this and remain for it is for protection of both our employees and the public and now I learn not just for code enforcement employees but for animal control employees and um the the reason is if somebody goes into your house whether you didn't get a permit or to your business for not building something yet they they'll be angry maybe and and they could elevate it to uh to violence but when you start taking somebody's dog or their horse um people people tend to get U tend to get a little bit more violent so I think it's good protection for our own employees and I think it's good protection for the public because we at least I do hear too often that that people don't trust government anymore and it's heay it's they said this I said this um this removes that down and gives us proof of exactly what was said for for me I I think the fact that there's a possibility that an employee could be charged I think that's a good motivator right there it's part of the training that I just don't see it as a as an insurmountable problem to train people that when they turn that on they give a card and asking for their permission have them sign it if they don't sign it they don't turn on the camera um the homeowner or the business owner can can record it um it's been said so it it offers our employees protection it offers the public protection um I I think both of those things are really important I would I would like to pursue it locally and through uh the state legislature but I'll I'll if if the council is more comfortable with going to the state first um I think I I hope that what we end up here with is it the staff will continue the process because a big question for me is going to be cost how much does it cost to to store all this can you put it on a hard drive can you put it on a on a memory stick does it have to go to a secure place that's um that anybody can get into so we need to look at costs and um and exactly how it's carried out so Vice chair Kent thank you chairman I don't like it for all of the reasons that councilman Santiago very clearly pointed out this is problematic and unless we get permission um a road map a roadway from the state legislature I I'm I'm out on this Mr Irvin quick question for you uh and I'll have all this don't you can keep my time going I'm going to be I'm going to be done in 30 seconds probably you said in eight years there were like five instances a handful of instances I'm not going to hold you to that was it multiple employees or was it really just maybe one employee off the top of your head several different okay okay um but a handful over eight years and I I can't remember who said it it might have been council member Johansson who talked about people aren't too happy to see code enforcement show up um a lot of Truth in that as well I just didn't know if we maybe had a a you know super Eager Beaver Rambo style enforcement officer who just rubbed people the wrong way and we're doing all of this because we needed to have a sit down healthy conversation with an employee and say Hey you know your tactics are not conducive to what we're trying to accomplish here that was all thank you councilman Johansson sir a point of clarification as we're wrapping up here I think uh councilman Santiago uh uh had a motion to table this is that correct um uh but one of the uh it it seems like we're going toward uh recommending option one to talk to our legislator about legislature about amending state law so I I just want to see if we want to amend the motion to provide option one is one of the options well I'll ask him I his motion was to table with no time certain I think on anything no options correct I think Mr Robbins and I both just kind of expressed what we were feeling but David Santiago it's your motion thank you Mr chair yeah I'll amend my motion if the second approves to uh table it still uh and work direct staff to work on legislative actions to provide the necessary protections to execute something like and yes the second is okay with that so but table it so when does it ever come back anytime come back anytime table doesn't kill it it just tabled and then it can come back at any time this is just to clarify again this is discussion which we've had and and Direction with options yeah I can change it to just option one so just so I'm clear option one is what we're going to ask him for right might take a year might take two correct B clarification what we're hearing loud and clear from the council is that we are going to be working with our legislative delegation and our lobbyist to see if we can get the uh exemption granted to code enforcement and animal Animal Control Officers if that action is taken we will follow up by bringing forward uh Pro process and programs to implement po cameras on can I add something to that Mr chair I I would say engage uh Florida Association of counties and Florida League of cities because I could see them wanting to have this as an initiative and Florida Association of Code Enforcement yeah okay can you restate your motion then you know in the interest of keeping it clean I I'll I'll completely modify my I think it's option one direct staff to okay um exercise legislative actions to provide the necessary protections and engage our partners in government to get relief from the legislature thank you second before I and and the second is fine with that before I call for the vote we have one member of the public who wanted to speak on this item Karen Clark but you still only have three minutes um hello again everybody and and Sabrina um one of the things that I thought was funny at the end was when a person is getting the code enforcement officer or animal control officer do you really think they're going to complain to their Superior thinking that there may be retribution down the road so that may be a low-lying reason why there's not as many complaints against maybe an overzealous um code enforcement officer but anyway I don't see why it would be bad to me it would actually help the staff the person going in protects them because we know it's he he said she says or whatever combination it is and it would save money in the end I believe because there wouldn't be any lawsuits you don't have to hire a super attorney if they said this and I said that it's on camera and I think it for the person getting the citation it protects them too you know it really does because you have it in writing you have it in in there and how much space and how much does it have to cost to save something you could put on a terabyte that you could stick in your pocket but um that made no sense but anyway it would also be able to put a harness on the officer the code enforcement person or the animal control person on doing what the county wants them to do and say and their uh uh actions exude not hostility maybe that's something that they have to look at too but on the camera you can't be the bully I know but anyway please look into having the cameras and the way the technology is nowadays it's extremely inexpensive to have these cameras I mean I had my whole house camera up because of people that came over neighbors that now got ex taken out but um just stick with it and I'm sure that it'll go down especially the animal control people I know some of the things that they have to go through when they go in there when they're doing the right thing for the animal part so on their on their side as well it would protect them and actually say oh no that dog only at me once well I'm sorry the dog mold them you know anyway I'm sorry it's I'm done thank you uh not seeing any other comments Carissa would you call the role on the motion to direct staff to pursue uh step one Mr Robbins yes Mr Santiago yes Mr Dempsey Mr Johansson yes Mr Kent yes Mr Brower yes motion carries unanimously 620 thank you for the discussion item 13 uh selection of chair and vice chair of the value adjustment board due to recent Florida Department of Revenue uh uh guidance in uh any council member May nominate um currently we have Matt Reinhardt and David Santiago on the uh on the board um would there be a nomination for uh chair i' like to nominate Matt Reinhard as the chairman okay I'll second that he's not here that's good that's right that's what happens when you're not here um Mr councilman Johansson nominates Matt Reinhardt by the way Jake I like Matt and then um would somebody like to nominate David Santiago for vice chair yes I I'll do that right now I'll nomin nominate David Santiago as Vice chairman okay is there a did I hear a second is there a second second Johansson okay is there a second on Matt reinart nomination by Jake Johansson okay all right any other discussion all in favor of Matt Reinhardt as chair David Santiago as Vice Chair say I I any opposed motion carries six to zero item 14 appointment of uchia County Career Source Consortium member and alterate member and um we have option Jake is on that he would um um he could be nominated and we can also nominate someone from staff like the deputy County uh manager Suzanne tonin what is your pleasure Jake Johansson yes sir although I don't think it's a good idea to nominate myself I would like to nominate uh Suzanne as the um as the alternate um she's been uh very uh involved in the uh in the merger and I think it would be good to have her for uh uh some planning Integrity moving forward so you're nominating uh is there a second on that and I'll nominate Jake Johansson as our Career Source Consortium member is there a second on um Suzanne first David Santiago makes a second and you have nominated uh Troy Kon has nominated Jake is there a second on that second David Santiago makes that second as well comments all in favor say I I I any opposed Congratulations by the way chairman that that was the worst trade I made ever in my life with with I heard you doing a great job at it by the way so hats off to you thank you thanks David item 15 is the atlarge appointment to the Halifax area advertising Authority so I'd like to nominate uh Sandra Boon is there a second to Sandra Boon second seconded by David Santiago Jake your name is still up do you have a comment about her no sir nope um all in favor say I I any opposed Sandra is not ated and approved do we have any public participation is is it just one John Nicholson John next to beach side yeah I know there's a crowd out there you can't tell which people want to speak um with regard to something that popped up earlier today uh police chief came with a valid reason all right um nobody likes to be told uh that your area is not perfect uh as I said I was embarrassed F when Danny made made that comment but the truth hurts um and I'm sure you all have heard the phrase dirt cor every time I hear it I cringe I hate the comment arrive on vacation leave on probation I've heard that for years we have problems in Daytona Beach I bring it to you all because we have problems with the county uh for 20 years the uh relationship between the county and the city was not the greatest uh in the past we've never really been that close and to me and I don't think anybody would really object to the idea of by saying that we are the economic engine of the county we are the tourist center of the county we are the events center of the County uh these are just facts all right what we as a city do with these facts is something different and I know you're not supposed to be involved with our city but you should be all right if you ask um I forgot her name right now um she does a h board statistics on the value of Tourism um Evelyn fine if you were to have her here and explain to you how much money is generated how many people are employed how much it lowers the taxes for all the cities around us I had a meeting with uh Echo and it's true we donate basically or to have donated almost $19 million to B forever and didn't get a dime back we lose $100 million a year on sales tax these devastate our city and you guys got to realize that you all play an intricate part like a puzzle to what we do and if you allow uh the things that are going on in in Daytona Beach uh I know when I talked about the Republican Party Guys you guys can C right now and if you guys don't stick together we're not going to go anywhere so you have the power to move not only the county but the cities as well on where you put things what uh like the LPGA extension all right you have no idea I showed Troy Kent the number of properties there 20 properties on LPGA being developed it is just massive I can't show it to you because I lose it but I'm asking you to be very involved and can I one one more second is it just Zapped um I apologize to Danny for what happened but uh the truth is the truth thank you okay um County Manager George re wall yes sir uh Mr chair counsel uh I just got a couple things uh one uh the burn band uh I've been asked uh several several folks uh if we were intending on doing any kind of a burn band we are approaching uh a a drought index of 500 uh that's typically where we do that and part of the County already uh is in that range so I will be talking with the uh fire chief but I would if unless we get some substantial rain I would see us implementing U some some type of an open burn band later in the week um the other thing I have been asked um been brought up a little bit about the timing of the ISB ramp uh closure I'm going to have Ben Bartlett come up uh as we have uh said previously on this project uh this was timed to be part of a Florida Department of Transportation much larger project on ISB itself and the idea was we would be doing work while they were doing work and uh try and minimize uh any kind of issue and the work is expected to last uh nearly nearly a year so there's no way to do the work and not somehow get into the beach season and and um we did wait and we were fortunate to get past our busiest typically our busiest holiday out on the beach is uh Memorial Day so we are past that Mark and with a little luck we could get done uh around Easter before Easter next uh next spring but Ben anything to add and there's I think people need to understand a little bit about you know what what it means as far as when we're working on the ramp what will be closed and what's not going to be close sure absolutely so Mr rectenwald is is correct um you know there's no good time to do any construction project of this nature especially when it impacts uh businesses and visitors um as Mr Reon Walt said you know the timing you know the dot project improving the ISB Corridor we are uh our construction zones overlap and we're replacing underground utilities we're replacing the ramp and so we need to this construction with theirs so that we're not ripping out new stuff that they put down and vice versa um the other side of that is um as Mr reonal said we waited till after Memorial Day to close the ramp we had been in touch with the businesses uh on the north side of the ramp to let them the property owners to let them know that this was coming uh there is the um Hotel condo on the south side you're going to be maintaining vehicular access to or pedestrian access to both the businesses and the hotel condo and we'll ensure that the hotel condo also has vehicular access uh into their facility either from uh the ramp or from A1A um our goal is to take advantage of the fact that we can do work on the beach during the uh Turtle season this summer uh there you run the risk of delaying it and then getting into next Turtle season and not getting that approved so we're taking advantage of that now um and our goal is to get traffic open back up prior to Easter which is really when the beach season so we're only impacting significantly one of the beach driving Seasons so we're going to be out there um making sure that the pedestrian access is safe and and available and that the businesses can be accessed that way and we're going to be working with those folks as best we can and we're going to stay on the contractor to make sure we stay on schedule uh that's really I had a comment uh water that falls uh at the landfill to the north uh that was mentioned today does not flow South is the headwaters of the tamoka river it goes in the other direction heard that several time said about the uh that area and that's really all I have today okay thank you uh County attorney Michael Dyer yes just uh one item um it's coming to my attention that we have uh we've had a growing number of vacancies on your historic preservation board uh there as of this week it's grown to four uh it's an unusual board and that it's nine members so we've taken a look to see what other cities and Counties have done it does not need to be that big um Monroe County for example is five Highlands County is seven so one thing I wanted to suggest if it was agreeable to council was um we're bringing forward ordinances on the action you have directed on a few other boards we'll be returning to you in July um discussion we had was whether this is the appropriate time to reduce the size of your histo board historic preservation board from 9 to 5 uh that would not cause any member to lose their seat it's actually the vacancies that we have it might be a little easier to fill um it's just large it's hard to keep that many people on of board so if it's agreeable to you I I can bring back an agenda item with a proposed ordinance for you to consider yes from me why don't you make that as a motion Vice chair yes would be be happy to do that um I I will uh everything our attorney Michael Dyer said uh about the transformation and change of the number of individuals on that board that's my motion so you're going from nine to five okay and the uh Jake was that you with the second councilman Santiago makes the second I mean Joe Hanson we're so short I'm not even going there all right uh thank you for the motion gives um County attorney all the tools he needs all in favor say I I and he opposed and thank you motion carries six to zero okay that brings us to uh County Council closing comments and first up today is uh councilman Robbins thanks chair guys I'd like to to quickly public uh publicly address some of the comments that were uh obviously aimed towards uh me uh earlier in the meeting uh and I just want to uh first and foremost say that I've known the chief for probably 20 years and um respect them tremendously and and I have a feeling this obviously took on a life of its own uh I just want to to clear up some loose ends here at no point did I disparage the great work of the men and women of the Daytona Beach Police Department in fact I've been the biggest cheerleader and will continue to do so for our law enforcement community and our First Responders countywide again at no point did I represent or portray any officer or municipality in a disparaging manner because disparaging despairingly is defined as being little worth and I know firsthand that the Daytona Beach police officers do an incredible job day in and day out at no point did I say or portray to be an expert on special events crime or Staffing I only stated my observations my comments must be put into an accurate context which was Beach driving and the blight in Daytona Beach that affects our businesses our tourism and our economic development that was brought forward by our constituents this was not self-initiated by me if Gain Is defined by bringing up other valid points when confronted with an issue and folks I'm guilty if pointing out the obvious from my real life experiences both past and present in laying it on the table to improve our community then once again Dan Robbins is guilty I respect the chief for coming in to address his point of view and I encourage respectful dialogue where I disagree with him is the unnecessary unnecessary baseless attack on my Integrity both as a person and a police officer disparaging the career where I serve with honors where I sacrific my body for my community that I continually pay for every day I get out of bed I stand by my comments as they were true to my experiences and I will never apologize or be silenced for telling the truth now or ever I have also never been the person to back down from a conflict but in this case I think it's within our community's best interest to keep our eye on the ball because the first step to addressing any problem is realizing that there is one in my opinion we should be using this to our advantage to get more funding for our cops and Community because they need it terribly to the city of Daytona Beach and the chief this will blow over I still love you guys and respect you I love our cops and I will continue to strive towards improving our community The District 3 door is open it will remain open and all my resources are always available to you guys thank you councilman Santiago thank you Mr chairman I got a couple a few items um I wanted to um see if the council is okay with giving additional guidance um on parameters to our staff when it comes to the upcoming Workshop um we're going to be discussing the Land Development code and things like that and I wanted to to see if you all are okay with um allowing them to expand that and look into methodologies or policies that we can change in the county to help folks with this uh Insurance crisis that we're having in our country I excuse me in our state it's it's really bad obviously we're a we're a coastline County and um the skyrocketing cost of homeowners insurance is certainly affecting the homeowners Marketplace um it's it in some cases is preventing people from even obtaining insurance so and auto Yeah well yeah yeah I agree but this is a yeah the meeting we have if we have another meeting that can expand on that I'm open with that yeah but I think there may be policies that that comes to Land Development or construction that we can adopt that can in some cases potentially offset we know we talked about affordable housing and how do we get government out of the way and to reduce the private market right uh things um we're looking at these policies so I just want to see if there's consensus to direct have to look at what's happening out there and what we can potentially do here in a county to um mitigate uh rising cost of insurance I know they're doing some things but is there support for that or or is there I like to ask is there objection to that I'd like to reverse that there's no objection to that I I may have an objection I'd like to ask staff it seems like the the meeting that we already the workshop we already have planned is pretty beefy and then it's going to take some time is this is it possible to combine these two and do either of them Justice that's a valid question Mr chair I have no problem with that I have to get with the staff I mean we do have a pretty big uh amount on the on a plate but I mean you bring up a good issue so let us take a look at that and if we can include it or or make it a segue to to a further meeting we can do that yeah I I think it's important enough that it it could take its own Workshop I'm not I don't want to have a meeting for the sake of having a meeting but insurance in Florida is is a huge problem you're exactly right thank you Mr chairman I I agree with your sentiment whatever staff can do research I mean uh just off the top of my head I mean uh and what I I caution a little bit about is I you know we can build things to withstand almost anything uh that would make it a little easier to ensure but I don't know if uh if that's what you would want to afford so that's something to to think about uh but we'll I'll look and see what's going on within the industry because we're not the only one obviously this is a this is a state issue it's probably Southern United States issue and believe me my toes fingers and prayers are that uh um the predictions of this uh season uh are are off and we don't have any issu so but uh yeah we'll take a look at that and see what else we can do and and the reason Mr chair and colleagues that I brought it up into the land development side of things because there are certain things that I think this Council will support that give relief on the land development side that reduce the costs of of of of of building a home right um whether it's I'll just throw things out there impact fees setbacks or size requirement those those various things that we put in there that dictate how people Built Homes could potentially relief some of the things that we should be in homes given that we live in Florida in this hurricane weather so that's the only reason I tried tying the two together and we can get there maybe with a secondary meeting but I'd love to see us be a a Pioneer uh in the State of Florida to find ways to uh get creative and help give some people relief with good policy before you move on I think two of your colleagues wanted to speak sure to you about that um Jake Johansson yes sir I it's already been said but I I was going to suggest we I have no problem having another workshop on this I I think this will I think there'll be a lot of conversation about this and what I don't want to do is have us look at the clock and short change all that stuff we have to do in the current so we can get to this which probably demands an equal amount of time once we do the research so um uh and and I've always supported having a few workshops a year anyhow uh so if this needs to be a second one by G let's do it yeah I'm comfortable with what's been said Mr chair I think staff gets it if there's consensus to have one soon we'll have it whenever it's appropriate as far as the timing if that works Mr chair it works uh don something to add I I would kind of be respectfully against that again I think lazy fair just let the free market work itself out this is no different and the SNL debacle in the 80s and I mean every time the government thinks they can fix something they just create another problem and I don't think any of us are economic Geniuses and to sit here and think that us seven could somehow fix the insurance problem in Belushi county is is to me Pie in the Sky we just need to let it work itself out if if people were going to lose their homes there'll be more foreclosures if there's going to be people not in having Insurance then the insurance companies are going be in trouble but there's all it always works itself out if we just let things play itself out so I just I don't want to spend too much time I mean I guess we can look into it but I just I'm really against the government ever coming in and trying to regulate or control the free market you just you got to let things just play itself out and it'll work itself out if we're just patient that's all so yeah Don I I I I see where you're coming from and there's part of it that I that I agree with um this could potentially have the effect of minimizing government's role um depending on the way the conversation goes I'm not suggesting more regulation or not or in any case or a a middle ground part of a lot of what drives the cost on not only construction but also an insurance is government policies they play a part in it because it drives the market so the the purpose of the conversation is to see what trends or see how we can potentially be NE Innovative that's the only reason and it could mean getting rid of stuff so I'd be a little bit more open to it because we your your dialogue would certainly uh attribute to you know where government gets in the way well if we can talk about getting rid of government at this Workshop I'm all in favor of it if we could get rid of impact fees or cut them down I'm finding out impact fees are astronomical in this County so sounds like you want to have this meeting so if it's in that vein yeah I could support you thank you did you have more yeah thank you Mr chair um and and then um I wanted to with um my colleagues I'd like to also get either if there's no objection to see if staff at the um next council meeting to bring forward to us um an update on potential not potential um the charter amendment process um as we're leading into this uh uh national election um I wanted to get some guidance and dialogue engaged with staff to look at um if there's any potential for us to do any Charter amendments what the deadlines would be and just maybe have a short conversation or in-depth conversation on things that we may or may not want to consider putting on this upcoming um elections ballot I'm not proposing anything one specific but if staff if the council agrees to staff can give us a uh a history of what has been discussed over the last few councils uh and then open that dialogue potentially for other council members to engage if there's no objection Mr chair I'd like to see if that comes forward to us I think I I have a I have a question for staff is it it's too late for this year isn't it attorneys uh it's growing very tight uh the um Charter every 10 years you have a charter review process so come May um is a time that the charter allows Council to initiate that appoints people for that process um you can also initiate as a council amendments to your Charter on your own um there's now State advertising requirements or summ or Charter we could all do um but basically if you wanted to put something on the ballot you would need to adopt the ballot language I say in beginning of August and and speak with supervisor of election the hent sales tax had to be done by 15 July I believe it it varies I did um maybe it could be easier we asked it this way can we make the deadline if we wanted to yes just depends on what you want to consider thank you sorry I just wanted to get to the answer an attorney charge you by the hour I'm joking to Mike I love you I'm I'm sorry Jake I jumped in I apologize too oh um yeah so I I did a little preliminary research guys as you know and we're we're in the window it could be done if we wanted to uh I'm not suggesting any one particular policy I wanted to see if there's dialogue if we can discuss it briefly if if it goes nowhere at the next council meeting or if we have ideas U and we want to take action on it um we're within the window uh and staff can make it happen so that's what Pro that's your intent I I mov to direct staff to bring forward um guidelines timelines and historicals of let's say the last two Charter amendments that have been proposed uh or discussed um to the council for review and discussion next meeting you said the last two amendments that have been appros uh last two uh Charter Amendment proposals and discussions okay okay not a specific Amendment but the process yeah yeah okay what kind of give us a historical uh perspective of what's occurred and what's been discussed by the LA next meeting okay that's the motion on the floor is there a second second by councilman Robbins questions comments Jake Johansson yes sir um I claim not to be a politician but here I am I'm it's it's important I think it's something we can chat about but it was it was never a a number one priority and to make staff um jump through a bunch of Hoops to get it done by uh July Late July early August to get on the ballot if we change something is is something I'd rather not deal with either um I I don't want this to occupy um my life and our lives while we're trying to fix the coast and talk about things that that we tabled last week and the budget and and add this to it in addition to two workshops that that we haven't yet attended so um those are my thoughts and that's that's why it'll it'll be a no for me councilman Santiago thank you um I appre I respect your your perspective Jacob but every Charter amendment is an election year just you know so otherwise it wouldn't be a charter Amendment um because they have to vote on it um and again I'm not advocating for anything specific Jake it's more of a if there's any of my colleagues that have ideas that they want to talk about or look at what happened in the past if we at that so time engaged and want to have that conversation we certainly can if not then you know nothing moves forward um but at least have a historical perspective we are with in the window um I don't think it's uh well I don't know what if anything would even be proposed but um that's the purpose um I think our staff is very capable and unless they feel they're not okay we have that as a motion and a second uh rather than call the role I'm just going to ask for if there's if it's hard to tell then we can call the role but all in favor of the motion to bring back this information at the next meeting say I I any he opposed n okay so it's five to one my last item Mr chair okay I just wanted to um make a more of a statement um Danny I appreciate your comments took a lot of courage to to uh come back and share your thoughts and um you took the criticism well too so uh have a lot of respect for you um that being said I I think you know some of the comments the member of the public shared um I certainly feel that Daytona's success is the County's success I want you to know that um and it's important that that that dialogue and that relationship flourishes and it's probably strained it's been strained for a long time uh and it shouldn't be amongst any of the Cities right we're going to have tensions some from time to time and things that are policy differences and we move forward but again I'll say Daytona success is valua County's success um so I I would encourage Bridge you know myself and all of my colleagues you know how do we build that bridge to ensure that there can be a long-term partnership not only with Daytona but others within our our our boundaries to ensure that um especially economic and safety and all those things successes are are appropriate so more of a statement to my colleagues that let's uh in a statement to the city of Daytona um engage us all um and um let's have some good dialogue and help uh make the relationship great again that's it Mr chair councilman Dempsey yeah uh Jake Johansson and two two quick um um I guess our public service announcements um we do a lot of research and and uh you saw a few things on the on the CI I that got discussed today um a few numbers got chatted about but I I want the public to realize that that when when staff's doing research and and paperworks flying around uh when what I call when we're grinding the sausage um that's exactly what's happening and and that doesn't necessarily mean that we're going to buy it cook it and eat it so uh don't think that when we're in the planning stages of things I'm in particular recently the Motocross it it doesn't mean that that that we're going to execute those plans um and and I think people get get wrapped up pretty quick on things like like the the trains left the station so uh know that that you have access to your elected officials and and that we listen to what you have to say um U but we we don't want to get involved early on in some cases when when we're when we're looking at options uh and personally I like to hear all options even ones that that uh that staff discounted and and threw out and didn't bring to us uh and those get discussed in at our weekly meetings um also some something that D pointed out that that sometimes I fail to to observe but um the the the government doesn't exist to solve all our problems uh as a matter of fact um I've I've said many times much to the sugrin of of Staff sometimes is that if you want something to be done efficiently effectively and and without a little without a little a lot of government regulation don't give it to government right the private sector can handle a lot uh with a lot more agility than than we can just by virtue of what we have to do to spend a dollar uh has nothing to do with with staff or government employees at the federal state or local level um so don't don't rely on us on stuff that that we could probably do together as a community um I was very critical of our our boards uh not because I didn't think all the the community boards that we have are are not worth it it's just that once they become community boards their hands are tied they can't talk they can't collaborate they can't do anything outside that meeting that has anything to do with what they're passionate about so as soon as we get them together and put their names on a list the only time they can talk about that thing that they're passionate about is is in their meetings otherwise it's a a sunshine violation so um my my goal is to get people to work out issues outside of government before you come to us I know it's tough to do in this day Aid um but things like that uh get done a lot quicker and You' be surprised how how quick your taxes get lowered when people take care of their their issues their concerns and their great ideas uh on their own uh Grassroots uh driven so uh think about that as we move forward and and I'll uh do everything I can to help people take care of that outside of government that's all I have thank you very much chairman thank you Vice chair Kent thank you chairman George when do we have a date Mr reinald when the off Beach parking um new rate structure for non-va residents and and the uh pay structure for nonvu residents to get on the beach will be coming back to us I think we're scheduled for August uh we've got we received uh our uh proposals companies so that's being in review right now um so then is that on track for August yes sir we've received uh the request the proposal solicitation requests for both contracts uh they will be selection committees will be meeting to select the uh recommended vendors and then initially we were uh looking to bring it to you in August and we're actually trying to get this wrapped up and hopefully bring it to you the meeting in July sounds good thank you very much excellent and uh my final comment is um just just to the sweetest woman I know my mother I love you and there's a lot of people praying for you thanks for listening online mom that kind of that kind of changes everything thanks for saying that and I don't know what's going on but she'll be in my prayers and everybody out here mothers are incredible um I just had a a couple things uh I want to start with what happened with Chief and with what Danny said I don't want to pile on the public has spoken to it um I I do want to say that I you were I'm not surprised that Jakari and his officers might have taken it personally you did never mention them but it it was very very strong and I don't ever remember a time that a council member took one of our cities to task um like that I I I would hope that we would be more careful in how we um speak about the cities within the county I actually I took it more at heart for the uh for the hall board and I I sent a note to Lori Campbell Baker and um because she's she's working around the clock trying to bring people to Daytona Beach and the rest of the county um I want you to know Danny that she responded acknowledging that she received it but she had no comment on it um it was just you know I wanted to let her know that as far as I can tell this board has a lot of support um for uh for the hob board for advertising to bring people in and um I I I don't think it was helpful for that on a good note I see several people from Emer on a different note several people from Emergency Management here we had a a a pretty serious fire in ostein I think over 900 Acres um I started getting calls late at night about you it's osin is pretty rural a lot of uh large animals there what do we do with their animals can we get help so I called uh Mark Swanson at night um I might have texted him and he called me right back then I heard from Jim judge then I heard from the deputy uh County Manager um I bring this up because there was there was several PR private individuals in oin who were offering their property for people to board their horses horses any large animal even dogs people were really concerned they as they pastures burning and uh one of the members of this particular page said the thing that surprised them the most is the county had no plan of what to do in a fire like that and I want it to be I want the public to know that Not only was there a plan but it was in place by the time I called them I asked about specific large plots of lands where we could take animals they were already on it they already had permission uh from some of them um so we do have a plan we hope we never have to use it but there is a plan for those kinds of fires and chief I want you to know that your guys and and women are really impressive and it was a dangerous dangerous fire and I don't think we lost any structures did we lose any animals did we lose any people right did you lose any firefighters thank God injuries to fire good am I right it was over 900 Acres come on come on up because this is this is important everybody wants to be a firefighter and this is why yeah the the Sandy drain fire that was down in oin started several days prior um it was stopped about it was contained at like 95 97% and then they had the little breakout over the weekend of 250 Acres um so total was 905 weather didn't help out that much as well we had 17 to 20 mph winds so it was um it was actually spotting 200 yard at a time but they did a lot of good work with forestry to keep it contained and and currently right now it's like 95% contained 97% good it was impressive I I saw one note from a woman that said she's watching the fire come across her pasture and I asked her was she able to secure her animals she did people got trailers there um Animal Control offered trailers for large animals everybody including the residents there oin is an amazing place the the residents really come together when there's an emergency and um so we did have a plan and the plan was in place and the plan worked and we we saved lives and property gon Saturday night between all of us just making sure the plan was in play and and I think everybody down in oin when they came through through where the the road was closed I mean they were all getting information firsthand from the cruise and Forestry on site but there there was definitely a plan in place good thank you uh Vice chair Kent you asked me about uh funding for for Motocross I was actually going to going to talk about it um I I answered your question aart I'm I'm not in favor of using general fund money for that I'm really at this point unsure about Echo because I want to hear from the echo committee it would go to them first and then come to us I want to hear what their feelings I want to hear from uh um our own uh staff members um Dr bbal um my hope my my desire was that um Don brought some pretty impressive impressive people in here that that do this already and I would hope that we would end up with a private operator on private land land that County sells or even maybe even better with land that the uh um that the speedway has and that the speedway would be involved because it goes directly to them so um but I I want to push that just a step further and I ask uh Dr Brad ball about this I wanted to know did we have land currently that where we could ride and there's there's like 32 miles where people can ride ATVs but not necessarily um uh dirt bikes motorcycles um so this is kind of separate Don to what you were talk you're talking about a competitive thing but I know we have a lot of residents a lot of riding clubs who just want to go somewhere in Valia County and be able to ride not have to go to Okala or or banel um those places are available and so I I have asked um uh Dr bbal to to let us know at some point where where we might have areas in Bia County Just For Pleasure riding not for doing the amazing things that your son is doing necessarily but where families can go and because it is a it's also a family sport um just riding in the woods for my family it's horses for years it's it's dirt bikes and I think we need both so um I'm hoping to hear that information there are some places now but to me it sounds like I don't want to ride on a paved road if I'm on a dirt bike I want to I want sand and mud and something to jump um which I'm probably not going to do anyway but I have four sons that would and maybe five daughters um on tomorrow Wednesday I'm going to be on the Indian River Lagoon um releasing 2 million clams out of a drone and to it's just such an amazing thing to me that you take that old technology of a clam that helps clean water and the new technology of a drone where where the uh the lease holder the the clam grower uh whose name is Mike Sullivan he's he owns a lot of leases or he has a lot of leases up and down the Lagoon has a tremendous Restaurant in St Augustine um it would take a half a day or all day to release that many uh seed clams and we're going to do it in a matter of minutes um and one of the reasons that he's doing it there and I'm not going to give the exact location because we don't we don't want any accidents but um is because the water quality is improving in in the uh Valia County's um Southern section of Lagoon we're not where we want to be but clams and oysters greatly help with that so it's just it's it's an amazing thing I've been I'm hoping that the Press will pick up on it because it it is such an interesting uh project um there's other people uh Kelly McGee is involved in it um which is which is excellent so um that's all I had other than to say um America bless God we always ask God to bless us um and he has I think it's time where we're mindful of what that means to each of us and the way that um uh we participate in in the political realm and the personal realm so um thank you all Council for uh a really good series of debates today and we are adjourned at 238 which may be a record e e