e e e e e good afternoon I'll back off that mic I think somebody turned my volume up um I am calling the April 3D meeting of enra to order at this time and we will proceed please with roll roll call and can someone turn my volume down just a little this is freaking me out thank you okay hang on one sec while they're checking that out we've been informed that member Donna brosmer would like to join uh by remote I don't know if she's logged in yet but if and when she does someone will need to move to allow her participation okay there's a little Reverb over here but I'll go ahead so U Melissa Lamers here Jessica gaw Wendy Anderson here Tyler mberg here Sarah Lee morisy Bob Fitz Simmons John hoblick Jack seret here Bliss Jameson Bill lights here Bernie LEF Alex zinsky here Suzanne Shyer and then um like Melissa said Donna has indicated that she wants to participate remotely although I don't think she has yet logged into the teams meeting but if you wanted to go ahead and vote to allow her to participate you could do that now and then when she logs in she'd be set yeah I move that we allow her in Al those in favor I I any opposed okay Donna we will be allowed to participate remotely if and when she logs in and by my count we have Quorum correct we have Quorum if anybody has to leave early and no one else comes then you no longer have a physical Quorum so that would be the end of the meeting at that point we have eight people physically here if they lose a quorum yes nobody's going anywhere and we have a visitor today I don't usually ask this but will the visitor be asking to speak she might have to speak um so yay Jessica um so I'll just um start with maybe some introductions of people that you haven't met yet dad kbear County engineer over that that's casmer act the uh assistant County engineer this is Morgan Swank she is one of the new attorneys with the county and she will eventually be taking this board over for me because I have frequent scheduling conflicts so we're glad to have her on and Samantha's back um and just one other announcement real quick before we get onto the business um I have a couple of different conflicts today oh Sarah Le's here excellent so I will be leaving um shortly after approval of minutes Samantha will be here from environmental for the rest of the meeting so um I do ask that if you speak speak into the microphones because I'll be listening later and I want to hear everything everybody says all right uh moving right along now that we have plus two on our quorum uh has everyone read the February 7th and the March 6th minutes that were distributed would someone entertain making a motion moving to approve uh February 7th I'll make a motion but need some changes I think and those changes are on line 28 through 30 I think that's three thoughts mashed into one and they don't quite make sense it's Mr Abramson reported that the 25 foot diameter this is about tortoises is site dependent relocation is up to 200 miles which has been previously suspended that's true and that consideration has been given to a site relocation options however possible recipient sites would only be for County projects it just doesn't make any any sense to me the county is doing a recipient site for County projects and maybe that's what he meant so do you want me to suggest the change is that how I guess but I'm gonna ask so we can do it all maybe you do it all at once I also have an observation and does anyone else have an observation about the February uh 7th minutes Sarah Lee hi um on line 10 of the February 7th meeting minutes it says uh in the middle of that line it says in the annual report and I think what was uh stated hopefully but certainly what was intended is the work plan not the annual report thank you and I would just like to make an observation lines 20 through 22 um it's environmental Council not environmental Coalition we keep having this happen that is on I'm sorry I didn't write down the page line 2022 at at the it's I think it's the first page it's um I'm sorry I didn't copy the whole thing and there's also mention of a shot clock timing mandates and just later someone can re-explain that to me I got lost on what that was I'm assuming it was accurate bill can you tell us what page you were reading from page three sorry okay so we have a motion bill would you like to modify your motion to include the all the uh stated sure um the first sentence is okay on page 28 the second sentence is good but should end on 29 after suspended and the third sentence would start with consideration has been given to a relocation site a relocation recipient site for County projects thank you and also would to include the early and I the correction early and I mentioned in your motion yes thank you uh do we have a second thank you all those in favor of approving the minutes as amended I any opposed the February 6 minutes are approved and we will move on to the March 6th minutes oh Suzanne yes sorry uh okay so um I had emailed in asking uh Chelsea who sent the minutes I said in the March six minutes I saw this towards the end of the meeting it said in quotes Vice chair gal requested the committee go back and listen to the March 1st meeting and the staff agreed to provide the link to the March 1st meeting and would note the specific time of the discussion began and then right after that there was a vote so I don't know if this is still needed or not and I couldn't guess by reading the minutes it was distributed from though not from Chelsea with the time stamp and it was the March 1st of 2023 so maybe we can check and see if You Were Somehow inadvertently left off that email or what and we did we did vote on the topic following that which is why you know part of it's confusing but I think the discussion was for us we came to the same conclusion it seemed and we just wanted to revisit the justification from last time and staff also sent out the record of all of the votes we've taken so far so that we could track that and that was distributed by Chelsea if it's not in that email I don't have it that was the reason I asked back I'm just saying so I mean I understand now but I couldn't guess this before okay any changes to the merch anyone would anyone like to move to approve March 6 minutes or amend I'll move to approve second any discussion all those in favor I any opposed thank you uh the March 6 minutes have been approved I will note that clay you were going to distribute to the members here the County Council goals they are on the website already downloaded them but just something that was a follow-up item not a not something for a change thank you sorry that's my fault I did I brought them up when we were here brought them up on the thing so then I didn't distribute them but I I certainly can thank you so um under old business Ginger is going to update us on how Samantha is doing with that code audit tool I'm actually going to get up and let Samantha update you and I will see you all next month so have a great meeting and um see you later okay right good broken chair all right so what we've done so far is that we completed the liid audit um in the last two weeks we during all of those discussions it took months and months to do um identified uh potential barriers in our code and in our comprehensive plan and had really good discussions about what we can do for implementation of an ordinance right now we are starting to work on the ordinance itself and a comprehensive plan Amendment to the Future land use um element once we get that and a technical manual together for you we will distribute to you all for review and um take your feedback and incorporate those into those documents that's where we're at excellent thly what is your timeline when do you expect that we would see a draft and it sounds like it would be a lot for us to look at it is going to be a lot um within the next two months you will have something to look at if I get my computer back I can uh give you the exact dates I'm just looking at approximate and thinking you'll you'll have at least um two to three weeks to review so it would be typically would send out after an enra meeting and then the next meeting be able to provide comments and what form does that come in like a strike out and delete or a table um so it it'll be typical Word documents for the ordinance language what we're looking at now is doing a separate division within the code um that's still up for a debate and then for areas we are if we're doing any strikethroughs in the code you will see that as well in that one ordinance document then you'll have a separate document for the future land use um element amendment that will be strike through and then underlined as well um and then for the technical manual that'll be its own microsoftw document and it that's going to be the document that takes you a while to review there's a lot of information in there provides examples uh all the bmps the maintenance requirements and everything and that's still completely under construction right now not for us to have to discuss now but mostly so that Samantha can think about this knowing what this group is like and listening to what I just heard listed I I'm G to suggest um that some thought be given to how we can be most constructive in a timely manner with our comments I may I recognize myself I think that's a great point I I don't want to spend a lot of time today either because we have a whole lot to learn in managing storm water but thinking of our original experience when we started out reading through ordinances and trying to pick those apart rather than sort of a big picture presentation we've all recognized that that was not efficient on our part so um we can put our thinking caps on and maybe email Sam and ginger CC Ginger or vice versa and we and we have some new members I don't see Donna she's she's online oh okay um but Suzanne wasn't here Donna wasn't here we as a committee did discuss Li and we as a committee actually supported an approach to incorporate Li so we need to remember that when we are reviewing I'll make sure that we provide an overview whenever things go out for what um enre has done for liid in the past and so we're all in the same page um I also can make sure whenever we send it out for review maybe we'll do it in a segments or what have you but highlight certain areas for you to hone in on um because there will be certain tables and matrixes um especially for the incentives that we really want your input on a lot of the rest of the material within the manual is educational for the public um and is from a multitude of different resources so things that you may have already read before but they're being matrixes and tables in there that you're going to want to comment on thank you Alex microphone please uh when when that comes out you mention that there's going to be examples and that are they localized or kind of contextualized to belua or they just like here's the the pie in the sky liid world so when I say examples I mean for each individual BMP um so we will show we'll have pictures examples and um uh description on how you do that within our code the regulation for it okay um so but if there are additional items we need to add we can do that I was trying to stay away from having a whole section of the manual just look at all these things that have been implemented in the past because the manual is already 30 something pages long with all the other educational material in there so um that's a discussion point we can have yeah I don't necessarily think we need to go through and like list all of the examples but maybe like have one or two really good examples leading into each section so somebody that's interested in learning more that might not see the the I guess the clarity in the black and white being able to actually drive to a site locally and say like oh well um I want to learn about rain Gardens you know let let me go to that section valua says there's a really good example here let's drive there and look at it I like that idea I'm not exactly explaining into detail what those sites may be but say hey this is over here in this location um if you wanted to go and look at it okay thank you very much and ah Jack just kind of a overall picture is this committee the only committee looking at this material or the only Department within the county going through um so uh all um subject matter experts within the county have been within these meetings for the audit and are going to beIN the meetings for the ordinance changes the comp plan changes and for the technical manual so it's it's everyone from the county working on that um we will be sending it out to stakeholders as well and Rec is a stakeholder so we'll have it in a meeting um we'll send it out to bcard and bbia and those other entities as well very good then um without further Ado I think we'd like to introduce our County engineer Tad casir who's gonna sing the Praises of storm water management prais U we going to be doing is uh PR the council's direction we are taking a look at uh storm water particularly in bsha County obviously uh as it relates to uh flooding conditions as well as potentially some aspects of treatment overall so in trying to tackle that what we thought was the best thing to do was to bring everybody uh uh an explanation of how storm water is currently handled we're going to make some recommendations on the rules it's important to understand what the rules require and how you go about meeting those rules so uh we're breaking into uh at least two parts if not potentially three today we'll be going over how storm water is is done how we uh model it what we take a look at the different uh different tools that we use to manage it those aspects of it uh then the next meeting we would go through what the rules are not just the County's rules but the state's rules Federal rules uh even some of the municipalities in mici County have their own specific rules uh though we may just touch on those a little bit but uh go through that aspect of it and then the last part would be providing some recommendations some thought processes on things that we would want to or recommend that the board consider uh for changes to the rules or to the design aspects that go into it so uh that's what we're thinking is potentially two maybe three meanings uh to go through that aspect of it but uh today is is more about learning how we uh handle storm water and what uh what the what the results of bad storm water management can be so I'm assuming everybody remembers grade school with the water cycle it's pretty straightforward um storm water planting is is predicated based on the uh the water cycle overall uh in particular it focuses on the uh leftand side of the water cycle on this particular exhibit the the rainfall the precipitation and then once it makes contact with the ground does it become surface water surface runoff or does it become groundwater and groundwater flow U ultimately it makes its way down to a collection Point uh the overall cycle also includes evaporation transpiration and evapo transpiration uh during storm water conditions uh those do not play much of a part at all obviously you're not going to have much evaporation if it's raining outside so same thing with transpiration and evapo transpiration so everything we're going to be basically talking about today is centered upon storm water so it's going to be storm water runoff surface runoff and uh groundwater flow overall so storm water attenuation attenuation is a fancy way to talk about flooding aspects storm water rules are predicated basically on two things one uh making sure you don't flood out your neighbors and also treating water we'll talk about the treating uh quite a bit later on overall but flooding or attenuation is the uh the primary aspect and usually the one where you feel the most immediate effect um the state uh statutes are pretty simple in this regard basically if you have an existing site you are allowed to have the same amount of water at the same rate flow off of it so if you're going to come in and you've got an existing piece of property and has nothing on it uh the amount of water that would come off of it in that particular situation as storm water runoff both the volume and the rate are the same amount that if you came in decided you were going to put a Dollar General or a subdivision or something along those lines on it so you're going to be com in you're going to be changing the surface you're going to increase that runoff it's your responsibility to hold that difference or restrict that difference so that your Downstream neighbors don't see more or at a greater rate than what they do before you built anything so how do we uh how do we do that we've got to manage that storm water runoff uh surface water runoff is the most important aspect of it because uh as you can imagine it runs much quicker moves much quicker than the groundwater flow does so uh so figuring out the storm water runoff rate is the uh is the key factor so how much storm water runs off of a particular site is based on three different factors uh the overall size of the base and the area that uh the storm water is falling in then the rate at which water either infiltrates into the ground or runs off and then finally overall the size of the storm is a large factor in how much water will be uh coming off of the Basin and then uh as I noted really what you're looking at is sorry go ahead sorry to interrupt will we eventually have a copy of this sure thank you yes yeah this will get posted sorry um then as I noted for the uh the requirements you're supposed to make sure that it doesn't uh run off anymore in the post condition than it does in the pre or historic or existing so you're basically running the model twice one to determine what's existing now how much water runs off now based on the size of the base and the current infiltration rates versus the rof rates uh for a standardized size size storm then you're running the post using that same size storm but with your new characteristics for your Bas and size which may change a little bit or your uh runoff or infiltration weights which are usually the uh biggest change from pre- to post ex question yes ma'am probably too geeky at this point but given our experience with hurricanes Ian and Nicole and the fact that we've had a couple of hundredy year floods or yeah R do we use like on the most recent data set so that those events are incorporated into the the reference data for for determining the how much water is fall I mean is well we will get to that in in just a little bit and uh and I'm basically taking it in the order that I just had it so we'll get into the basins first and we'll get into the Roff rates and then we'll get into the the storms and how we get into that and that is a good point though I with everything I'm presenting here I've tried to take um all the technical aspects out of it like we won't show any storm water models I'm not going to get into equations I'm not going to ask anybody to run an integral or any of that kind of crap um and I really yeah I know Tyler is so but uh I just want to know you were doing it yeah so uh but I am trying to keep this as simple as possible overall one of the things that uh we're going to do is we're going to run through this real quick and then I've got uh a certain site that we have done in the last uh six seven years well actually I guess it's now about 10 years um so we can kind of walk through it with that so you can see how these different things are applied and there will be some technical aspects of that but I'm going to skip over a good portion of that but uh all right so first part of figuring out storm water runoff is a basin so how do we determine what a basin is a basin is basically uh an area with a common collection point for uh storm water so um you take a look at the uh the exhibit the picture that's up there you see the red outline you'd see that if anything uh on the outside of that red line if swarm water were to fall in that area it would not fall into the area uh overall it's on the peak of the mountain water falls on this side it's going to flow down that side of the Hill it fls on this side it's going to flow down that side of the hill so assuming this is our common collection Point basically everything in this red area that water whether it's surface runoff or groundwater infiltration would make its way to that particular Point okay so that's our size of our overall Basin now you may only be working in a portion of that particular Basin and you can have subbasins overall uh keep in mind that for example uh a good portion of the water on this side of the county ultimately makes its way to the St John's river and the St John's river ultimately makes its way down to the Atlantic Ocean up in Jacksonville so if your collection Point were the mouth of the St John's river your Basin would be a vast majority of uh everything that's the St John's River all the way down to uh down in Oola County in that area so south of us into bravard the headwaters of the St John River would be a part of that base that said we're not studying that entire area to figure out if your Dollar General or subdivision is going to have more run off you're doing a more localized subbasin aspect of it overall and that's what we'd be looking at on particular developments so that said we also have different types of bases not every base Jason The Collection Point ultimately results in water making its way you need to let somebody in or something all right so not every uh not every Basin is open to the ocean ultimately okay uh the basins that are we call those open basins the water ultimately can make its way by surface path to the uh to the ocean uh using even a a mediumsized storm uh closed basins or landlock basins are pretty common on this side of the county these are basins in which the uh the Water never actually leaves the area goes to the lowest point in that Basin and uh has no flow path to get out so uh there's a big distinction between the two ultimately and how the storm Waters handled doesn't change very much uh but it uh it is handled a little bit differently when it gets to how we manage the storm water overall all right so now we know what our Basin size is and the next thing we've got to do is figure out how much uh storm water runoff we're going to have versus infiltration so as uh you can see with the two pretty pictures there that I scr the internet for uh youve got your prvious condition typically is what your existing site will generally look like uh maybe a few more bugs and bunnies on it but generally that's what it would look like and then afterwards you come build your Dollar General or your uh subdivision and now you've got pavement so the surface cover is usually your biggest determining factor in uh how much water infiltrates that said the other factors can play a big part slope of the ground now in Florida that's not much of a problem but if you go to North Georgia you go to West Virginia Hills you got slopes that are like this it really doesn't matter if the ground is great for soaking in water or not the slope is going to cause it to run off again here in Florida where our biggest hills are three feet tall that's really not much of a factor overall uh the soil type also has a big uh big effect you if you go to the beach you can see the water moves right through that sandy soil very easily doesn't get impeded in any way shape or form uh certainly compared to Clay kind of soils or organic with organic material you potting soil those types of things are designed to hold that water grab it and uh and keep it uh next aspect is voids in the soils you know large time A lot of times you think about this this is uh how well has the soils been have the soils been compacted you know if they're bigger grains of sand they're obviously going to be greater voids if there's smaller types of uh of soils then there not going to be as many voids overall uh then also you have saturation so if you get uh get a storm that's not too big a deal but if you've got three storms in a row and those voids in that space have now been occupied obviously the second or third storm can't put water where water already exists so now you've got greater runoff so you'll have more runoff with more frequent storms as well um so the thing I don't see on that list on that previous slide is vegetation cover because surface cover that's that's where I wrapped that in that okay because obviously when we have vegetation it helps things infiltrate better than if if it's just bare ground so yeah and so as you see with the pervious you see you see the vegetation in there and actually with this next one we'll get a little bit more into that so so now we've got to be able to take those criteria and turn it into something we can use in our storm water models because that's the important part of it so uh there are a couple different factors like we talked about and how we assign a value to uh to that existing ground okay uh the impervious surface as you see up there is is pretty easy to assign all of them uh sidewalks parking buildings asphalt concrete basically is is what we consider a 98 and while this number this is called a curve number and it's not really a percentage but at the same time it's a similar concept so we'll just consider it a percentage for purposes of this discussion basically what this is saying is that uh those impervious surfaces 98% of that water is going to run off there's always a little bit that percolates into even the uh even the hardest surface overall uh so we'd assign a 98 to that then you can see below that the other different types of ground cover soils that you might encounter uh everything from open space la BS that we all have or most of us have um to dense forest those types of things so the other Factor we talked about was the soil characteristics you uh we sign soils grades everything that from a to d basically and uh for the most part A basically means that it's it's well drained the water moves through it at a very good rate it doesn't hold it very well uh dils you're at the opposite end of that Spectrum you've got clay you got Organics things that would either slow water down or in some cases like with the Organics it'll actually grab that water and fold onto it so with the range in between so that's what the ABCD across the top portion of that is so depending on your soil type depending on your ground cover those types of things you're assigning a curve number to that particular section question getting it Wendy's question I think a little more um between the Surface coverage and your your storm water bottles um that we're factoring in the impervious surface coverage uh and the soil groups and and that side of things but does that account for um a highly Den tree canopy being able to suck up that water or is it just the soil this just determining the runoff aspect of it so that your question is would the vegetation soak some of that water and and it does but not during the time period in which the storm event occurs section yeah we'll hit on it here in a second um it's really getting to mist's earlier question with regard to uh to rainfall overall most of the duration EV events that we look at rain is measured uh rainfall events are generally set in a frequency and a duration most of the durations we typically deal with generally max out at 24 hours overall so during that event you're not getting that much ground soakage into it um the other aspect that we take a look at and there are certain things that we ignore overall because they would actually By ignoring we're being conservative so yes the ground might absorb certain things um overall uh there's uh yeah evaporation transpiration does that occur at zero even though it's raining no not necessarily but at a measurable amount something that we can control or actually measure no so we just ignore it assuming that by its occurrence it's actually a conservative that we're ignoring that aspect of it okay is the uh water table level the ground water is that what helps Define what type soil or is that a separate variable no we consider that a separate variable overall because the water table can change as you go throughout and the the saturation level that we talked about that immediate that plays into it but that's how we would Factor the ground level usually when we uh get into the design and we we'll talk a little about a little bit later we set a static elevation even though we know this system is going to change depending on what year the amount of rainfall so on and so forth we try to take a worst case scenario and assign that and that should account for uh any of those variations in the water table overall because we're taking basically the worst one when we design SM so I always like to be the the representative dum dum so hsg a through d is the range of the soil soil types from most permeable sandy soil percolation goes quickly to clay soil and hsgd which is is denser and then so if I just as a dum dum want to understand something I'm reading here a dense forest type which we're categorizing the cover as Woods if it's in sandy soil then the runoff uh the percent of runoff of what would fall would be approximately 36% on sandy soil and if we go to the D extreme then we're looking at 79% of that right just want to I like to do my personal  that's good that's good so I did pose the question what would uh what would you expect the number be for the wet ones and uh so part of the reason I bring this up because it's not really covered in the table above is uh Wetlands you would generally expect to be more of the uh the clay or organic time type soils so you would generally be on that level and then uh really it depends on whether or not you've got water above ground or below ground not all Wetlands obviously have water above ground uh in each aspect of it but if the water is above ground like it would be for a lake or a stream then at that point every drop of water that hits it is r running off so if it's a wetland in this case where you have water below grade then you would have some absorption but again you'd expect that the soils are probably bad so you're actually generally expecting that Wetlands produce quite a bit of runoff overall so that said they're usually at the low spot and that's where the water is sitting and getting held if it doesn't have a path to the ocean and would be a case in which 100% runoff might be potentially beneficial all right so we started talking a little bit about this uh the last aspect about the the mass going into getting to the the ponding element of of this um wouldn't the root structures of the highly dense organic areas um the high the vegetation areas wouldn't that create voids in your soil uh it can yeah keep in mind what we're talking about is the amount of runoff that's created overall not the groundwater yeah I guess on on my end the runoff is the amount that's not retained at not absorbed in the ground doesn't good so with with that being said in this process if if if the found foundational maths and sorry for getting really really technical here but in this process if the if the foundational maths aren't talking through or or accounting for the like root structure voids and we're ignoring that we're saying that's too complicated to to throw into this equation is that not kind of limiting a little bit of that soil storage ability there where where we're saying I I know this is really technical for an inra pole uh but I think you're getting into how the roots altering the soil structure would affect the percolation rate and you're sequestering carbon from the air and you go through the entire process of soaking up water and minerals from the soil and then putting a structure in there it eventually rots it's the Minimus yeah I guess at theend yeah I mean if anything could be clogging the voids like saturation have less of an effect than say the soils or the ground cover Pardon Me overall or the slope but those are going to be your your predominant the voids you know help that gives you storage but it really affects more your saturation uh overall okay so all right um rainfall uh as I mentioned earlier uh we take a look at storms uh in two different ways uh we take a look at the frequency how often uh what's the chance it could happen so one of the most common that everybody thinks about is the 100-year storm that gets discussed pretty much anytime there's been a hurricane or anything along those lines and it it's the uh storm that you use to model uh flood planes and that type of thing so uh that's the one most people commonly think about now 100-year storm doesn't mean it's going to happen once every hundred years it's really just the probability that it might happen so uh you can have multiple hundred-year storms in a year you can have multiple 500e storms in a year it's just a percent chance that it might occur that said most of the time you're likely obviously not to have one of those but uh uh there's always a chance so um the uh the other aspect we take a look at is the duration of a storm so if uh you get a 100-year storm it may not be a 24-hour storm and that's 100-year 24 is again that's the storm that we use for flood plane as far as most of the storm water calculations really the duration is is a minimal effect we take a look at uh the volume aspects of it for the for the most part and whether you're collecting you know 11 inches over one day or four days it's still 11 inches um the uh the different size storms are actually calculated they do have a uh there's quite a bit of Science in it I don't necessarily understand exactly every aspect of it uh so I will avoid trying to uh get into that explanation of it but they do have a set definition for each of the different size storms and then the state set their specific requirements and actually that's the storms that I have listed are what the state spells out for uh those types of storms the you'll see that I've gotten noted in there the amount of rainfall that's typically associated with those particular storms the uh those storm rates that that amount actually depends on where you're located okay uh the very blurry picture on the right hand side those lines indicate the amount of storm water that would occur during a particular storm uh and you can see that it's different in Lake County say that it is in Valia County and you can see in point of fact where you are in Valia County that storm intensity or the stor the rainfall amount changes depending on whether you're on the east side or on the west side for that same level of storm um I've actually now got these down to the point where you can just enter your coordinates on a computer program it'll tell you for a 25y year 96- hour storm this is exactly the amount of rainfall you've got so um we generally don't get into setting those there are there's quite a bit more into that if you really uh care to get that technical about it we can talk about it afterward but uh overall so that's established the important part of it of uh the storm water modeling the amount is important but the most important part is making sure that whatever you use for your precondition is the exact same thing you use for your post condition because that's what you're measuring is how much rainfall ran off in that pre versus that post if you change your storm obviously that has an effect on the amount of runoff that that occurs so we take a look at those three factors put them together ex B has a question sorry ouch Tad can you give us for practicality uh the name of a few storms maybe that have been hundred-year storms or the you know some recent 50 years just so that we have a grasp on yeah you know you know with the last hurricane a 100 year was it a 50 was it a 25 okay that's a good question uh as I just discussed and as we saw in the previous exhibit you know storm 2596 on the east side of the county is not the same on the west side of the county so for example when uh pretty sure it was Ian came through and dropped 20 in over new smna beach it did not drop the same amount of rain in Dand or in Deltona in those areas so uh there's quite a bit of variability but um at 20 inches over new smarta beach everybody says what's greater than a 100-year storm well the way those curves work they're actually exponential so it was probably greater than a 500-year storm when you run the numbers out overall for 20 inches over that period of time so um tropical storm Fay was 20 inches in De overall so that was around a 500 year storm event uh a lot of the Hurricanes um uh back in 2004 I think it was Charlie was close to 100y year event but it felt worse because it had been raining beforehand and it was raining even before the first hurricane came in and everything was saturated at that point so even then you know exacerbates that particular problem so having the storms on top of each other is almost as big a problem as it is just having one big storm all right so using those previous factors we figure out the difference in the amount of water that would be running off now it's incumbent upon the design engineer to figure out how to impound that volume of water or to slow it down so that you're not discharging at the same rate uh or at a lesser rate than uh than previous so everybody's I'm sure familiar with most of the uh the methods that Engineers use wet and dry ponds uh underground storage swells a lot of liid methods that this group has looked at those are the common means for for tackling those types of issues um so how do we go about it so we've got that volume that we've figured out that water has to be stored above the water table everything below there is obviously occupied with the existing groundwater that's there so uh we have to go above that now um so that's the first Factor we look at is what is the water table for the particular area uh overall and we're looking at the runoff volume that we just calculated and we take a look at the soil characteristics uh for the area in which we're potentially going to put our storm water Pond or whatever method we're using to control the storm water and then if it's uh in a wet condition we also have to take a look at the tail water which is the area Downstream that uh any of this water might be flowing into if it were an open Basin so once we know what the water table elevation is that pretty much tells us what type of system we're going to be using whether it's wet or dry if the water table is close to ground level uh overall you're pretty much going to be in a wet condition so uh there aren't too many types of wet systems out there wet ponds are about the uh about the only game in town as far as that goes overall so if your groundwater is High versus your uh your property line your groundw or your ground elevations then you're going to be with a wet storm water system you've got uh four or five feet something along those lines then you can start taking a look at other types of systems again dry ponds uh underground storage those types of things but you've got to have the room you've got to have space between the bottom of your pond or the bottom of your system and that water taab elevation now to Sarah Lee's question regard to setting that water table elevation one of the things that uh that's done prior to beginning work is you'll get a geotechnical engineer out to the site and he'll take borings across the site to identify what we call the seasonal high water table as well as the existing water table now the existing water table can fluctuate so we don't rely on that uh depending on when you do the boring if it hasn't rained in 6 months then that water table is generally going to be depressed considering compared to its normal elevation U your seasonal high is basically during the rainiest portions of the year what does that water table elevation come to now you almost never end up doing your Geotech borings during that time of year so the Geotech engineer uh will go ahead and take a look at the soils from that boring and usually there are markers in that soil that identify you when the water table comes up to that elevation on a regular basis uh it'll leave it'll markers on the soil changes to the soil things like that that they'll identify and so we use that elevation as our water table elevation for our storm water calculations the idea being that look that's the worst case in the year that's where everything should be set at a minimum overall so once you've identified what your water table is then that really dictates again wet or dry and then if it's dry then it basically dictates the elevation that you can dig your pond to so again let's uh let's say the water table's at 5 feet below ground your seasonal high so we're now going to consider that our design normal water level or water table level so we would want to put our storm water Pond or other element I'm going to use Palm because it's just the first thing I think of but uh if we had underground storage it' be the same concept we're going to leave a certain amount of space between that water table elevation and the bottom of our system overall and then we're going to take that volume of water that we calculated it's increase from the existing condition to the post condition and we're going to put that into our system and that's going to get us to a certain elevation in that pond all right and that's what we call our Max stage or Peak stage in that storm water pond okay and from that then we move on to setting the other elevations in our particular development so we know that if we have a 25-year 96 hour storm the water levels going to come to three and uh so we want to make sure that all of our roads or our parking lots are not flooding we want them to be above that so the storm water collection system whether it's a group of LS and pipes or whether or not it's bios swes or swes or something along those lines we're going to want that to be above that elevation otherwise the system uh won't work very well and then uh so from that elevation the top of those then we'll go ahead and set our road elevation or our parking elevation because that's what we're trying to keep drawing and then above and beyond that we'll set another increase between our parking areas or our roads and our finished floor elevations for our building things are our homes so you you sure everybody's seen a lot of the new subdivisions you got their storm water ponds out there and then you take a look at that first home and it's it looks like it's eight feet above everything that's around well that's all geared based on those elevations all originally set by a Geotech looking at a boring yes ma'am okay I feel like I can ask this because nobody in this room is a Geotech engineer or working for a Geotech company over the last 20 years have we seen in our Geotech reports [Music] um a rise in the seasonal high water table the the quick answer that will be no because nobody goes and does a historic look you if we were doing Geotech borings in the same spot over the course of time then yes you might expect your geotechnical engineer to see a rise or a change in terms of that particular water table but no um because we don't do any historical monitoring along those lines now I believe the county does have uh water table monitoring uh Pomers at certain locations and uh they monitor ground water based on that but that's obviously localized to that particular monitor but no when we do when you're doing a development all you're taking a look is that snapshot time which is why that seasonal high is important and if it's set poorly and most of the time you see flooding problems in uh in new subdivisions or new developments that's the first thing I would look at is what was the cenal high that was established and everything was predicated based on can we get next month or two can we actually have you all gather those um those places where the county has has monitored with the Peters I'd love to see those data and I know St John's has some not top secret right no we s that out as part of our water Tom car used to do it so now Jennifer St does that let me see what we have can how we can better and St John's has some groundwater monitors for the area as well so would be great to okay yeah and there quite a different quite a few different ways it's monitored you got the surface water and the groundwater can you get them to do it over time I think that's what Sarah Lee's looking for right do now again I just think it's important because is if this is an opportunity to update our our code then we need to be doing it based on current conditions which is I mean with climate change we're moving in a in a particular direction and we know that the groundwater is going to be coming up whether it has yet or not yeah yeah but again it's going to be very localized overall so you know discussion with regard to like ocean level rise that's going to have an effect on the groundwater table nearest the ocean but it's going to have a minimal effect or reduced effect the farther you get away from the ocean overall so but it will affect your tail water conditions but it won't have that great of an effect on your tail waterer conditions except at the ocean even I I I'm not sure I can I'm agreeing with that statement where I'm troubled is I'm thinking about how flood planes have changed and that areas that uh I and I can use my experience when I was responsible for the school district facilities we had schools that at one point in time were not in the hundred-year flood plane but became in a 100-year flood plane when FEMA revised and to me that was because of rising water no actually that was uh that was a couple combination of things one uh when FEMA originally did not to get too craced but uh when FEMA originally did the flood planes they modeled them using USGS quad Maps quad Maps only are approximations of ground level and they're based on five- foot Contours not single foot Contours so one of the greatest changes back in 2012 or whatever it was 14 in that range FEMA came to us we gave them our contour maps from our lar where we overflew the entire County and got Contours that were within three inches of accuracy through the most part um and that's why you saw a change to a lot of the lines because they were interpolating between two five foot lines if they modeled it and most of their model was not Nat's ass detail it was at a very high level um so they were if it said it was 13 they were interpolating between the 10 and the 15 that and that's not how it works one those lines weren't very good in the first place and two the interpolation doesn't that's too much of a difference five foot Contours one foot Contours you get a lot more accuracy the other aspect is that for example you know we talked about closed basins uh particularly here on the West side of the County we are filled with closed basins I mean there are a large number and certainly a disproportionate number compared to the Eastern side of the county when they ran the models they didn't care about any of those small closed basins so almost none of the small closed basins have flood planes according to the map that said you ask an engineer what's going to happen if you put 100e storm in that area he's going to be able to tell you what the water level came to because it's not that difficult a calculation but the maps from f are a recommendation for the most part is still up to the engineers to make the determinations the purpose of the FEMA Maps was intent originally to uh provide for the potential for flooding Insurance that's it hey if you live in this area you probably want to get flood TR it was not to say hey this is how the world needs to be designed in any way shape or form so the level of accuracy isn't there so one of the things that uh you know uh when a site is being prepared for development they'll go on their survey and they'll provide a more accurate survey than even our one foot Contours will provide and then you know those flood plane lines are again tied to a particular elevation in most cases get it shifted and adjust it even then so it's a that's why you saw the biggest difference it didn't have anything to do with I mean they haven't as far as I'm aware when they reran their Maps they did not change the tail waterer condition in the ocean in any way shape or form so that's not di tied to sea level rise as far as I know so okay yes ma' another tangential question so I live very near the ocean on the east side where I grew up and we used to in the past we've had issues with saltwater intrusion along the coast and we will again certainly so the the the monitoring that's done whether by USGS or or by the district or I would assume that that would be an area of interest of having recurring snapshots would be where we have our drinking water wells which is of course farther farther right but I would be I would not be I would not expect those Wells to do anything more than monitor the elevation I doubt they're checking the solinity no okay interesting and I I I know that's tangential but resiliency is something that's going to come up thank you B they weren't using the markers in the soil they were going down and 10et below the ground but next year it was 5et and that's exactly what they did for my replacement drainfield grandfather to be at a deeper depth than current standards require the septic tanks still do that yeah yeah so um oh yeah I'm sorry Alex oh yeah I'm sorry Alex I'm trying to get it down there I'm trying you're not off the hook yet Al and Tyler both had questions too I'm so sorry Alex first Tyler so um on and this may be a little I guess out of sequence for what we were think thinking there's no sequence with any of Yeah by all means go ahead and ask with with that being said uh using I'm assuming like Atlas 14 or something like that as the basis for the rainfall precipitation totals um with the resilient Florida program and the CRS program uh they're asking local governments to look into no intermediate low and high for the 2017 projection there there's discussions to update it to 2022 uh but um with that being said if you kind of look at that as the foundation you've got the sea level rise element adjusting tail Waters and and things like that but then concurrently with with that research there's DOD research that uh suggests I think it's by 2040 there's 1 point one four times higher uh amounts of rainfall than we're seeing today uh and by 2070 I think it's like 1.2 and then by 2100 it's 1.3 times more rain um is there any intention in the county to adjust those factors to try to kind of account for that future flood condition that I mean the the Federal Department of Defense is saying is a very real Factor yes how quickly do you see that happening for us actually um one of the things that uh I stumbled upon as I was trying to prepare this uh overall is there's now actually a uh the ability uh there's a firm or actually sure Noah pardon me is the one that establishes the storms overall they actually now have a website where if you go in and put in your location it'll tell you what your storm amount are depending on the type of storm uh overall and that's at 14 correct yes yeah so that's the the current that's right more of that historic data logging I'm talking about projecting for the climate forcasting data and what he's talking about too yes it's got that in there they no forecasting data I I'm I'm aware of that but that's that's the present day condition that's not 2040 2070 and 2100 I got that's not the multip fires there so we're we're setting the standards and again the important part is that you're measuring you're using the two same type of storms I get I get that that that takes out a large part of the variability that goes along with it what what I'm trying to to say is where our our current regulatory footprint is po our 100-year storm is that correct the our kind of set setting the the elevations of our storm water systems are based on no uh the I I remember vaguely you said something about the 100y year 24hour storm yeah so the storms that we generally identify okay and it's depending on whether it's an open Basin or a closed Basin yeah okay so on an open Basin because you've always got the outfall the ability for that water to make it ultimately to the ocean as surface water then you're generally only looking at a 25y year 24 hour so take this as The Benchmark that's the 25 year for current kind of considerations of what our our rainfall is doing you take 8 Ines and multiply that by 1.3 you get a lot or not necessarily a lot more rain but an adjusted rain so our standard that we're building for now during the life cycle of the structures we are we will be surpassing some of that that's a possibility certainly i' I'd say it's a a high possibility if we're looking at the federal climate research and saying that is something we need to be considering that's something you can consider and that's not something that the uh the current rules take into account and certainly not something that's designed to at this point okay but that's part of the reason we put in as many safety factors as we generally do as well I'm not I have not bothered to hit on most of those because again most of them are ancillary so go ahead Toler so I have a few things I wanted to touch on the first is sarily you were asking if we've seen the seasonal high water table levels rise over time one of the things that we have that's almost 100y old data now are our soil survey maps and they were done all over the State of Florida but we have one for luch County I think it was done in the late 20s it was part of the alphabet soup of federal programs and so they mapped all the different soil conditions and if you're going to you know 5T down you maybe have a layer of silt or clay or something else that'll be described as something you can expect they have a lot of properties and they'll have an anticipated water table depth on that and they're not perfect I mean this is a 100y old data one and it it was taken by a grid method before GPS or anything anything else I mean it's absolutely impressive how accurate it is it matches pretty well with the Geotech data that I get today on a site if it's undeveloped and the area around it hasn't been substantially changed chances are I could plug in the soil survey data and do a pretty good concept design on it and then when I get my real Geotech have it work every now and then I get surprised by something but you know so consistency hasn't really been the issue it's um you know like Bob mentioned mentioned the way that we established our seasonal highs did change within the industry but that is mostly a we didn't have it right originally and we've refined our method um touching on the FEMA Maps they're called firms flood insurance rate maps I mean so it's exactly to establish FL insurance rates we have different flood zones that are the 100-year flood risk zones some are based on models some are based on historic Aerials of hey this flooded during the storm that fit about a 100-year flood so we just traced the aerial well as imagery got better and our ability to get instant imagery after a storm got better the accuracy of those Maps got better so there's a lot of factors like Tad was mentioning that led to the high inaccuracy that we had 20 years ago um the the soil stains that we're looking at are iron deposits and salt deposits they're pretty reliable if you go look at a bridge or something else near a salt water that has title rise and fall rust happens right above the water line so in those title zones you'll see the aggressive rust staining process the same type of thing happens in our soil we get our calcium deposits and other things so our staining method is pretty reliable for establishing water table it's just you don't always have that much iron or calcium floating around in the soil it's what do you do when it's just beach sand or you know something along those lines um dealing with the what storm volumes do we use when Tad was talking about the there's websites we can plug in our coordinates we have intensity intensity duration and frequency curves we just call them IDF curves so like can't say it quickly um that are established by the state of Florida they're coming from FD they're developed in concert with federal government as well as with fot because they've got more stormw Engineers than most of the state agencies and that's where the county is getting the data from right now we're referencing in the code of design storm the if that design storm value was changed by the state it would automatically be affecting what's used at the county level and you know I think that's where the county doesn't have the level of expertise to get into storm forecasting 20 or 30 years down the road and you know I would just caution our committee from you know trying to run down that rabbit hole too far but that's all I wanted to add um so everything we've been talking about at this point is really more predicated towards the volume of storm water runoff that we've collected but the rate can be just as important uh obviously when you put down impervious surface over something that used to be uh perious the water's going to run off at a much quicker rate uh even though you may not ultimately discharge as much but if you discharge faster then those Downstream areas aren't used to that amount of water in that period of time you can cause flooding in those particular situations so that's the other thing that we monitor is not just the volume but the rate uh overall so um that's an unimportant portion of it how do we do that how do we regulate the rate uh overall so we usually put in a discharge control structure uh what we'll call it usually if you look at it on a storm water Pond it usually looks like an inlet uh overall the elevations have been set such that uh water can discharge over time so for example if you got a large amount of water coming in but you only put in a small two to six inch pipe then you can really restrict the amount of flow of water out that way and that's generally what we do uh overall to make sure that we're not exceeding the pre-development requirements and that aspect of it all right um so we've now got a full pond the storm has passed on it's important that that storm for storm water system return to its pre-storm condition um you don't want it to recover too quickly uh but at the same time you don't want it to take too long either uh the county does not regulate this aspect of it the Water Management District the D the state they do uh overall and uh there are different ways that you can recover your system if it's a wet system you can do it by an Orphus again a smaller pipe that allows water to flow you'd set it at the uh uh normal water level in your pond pre any of the storm water runoff you set it at that elevation and with a small pipe it just allows a certain amount of flow to continue over time uh overall you also will still get some percolation even in in those wet ponds it may not be going down but it will be going out as the surrounding area water table drops uh after a storm uh as well and then in dry systems you're stuck with percolation there's really no other way for the water to get out it just filters into the soil it becomes groundwater which predominantly PR uh mimics the condition that occurred prior to the storm where you had that much as groundwater in the first place so that's the surface runoff now we get into groundwater water infiltrates in Via percolation and then you got a defined water table that generally sits there any of that new water comes in um generally tries to level out uh groundwater typically mimics in terms of its elevation the uh existing ground so if you've got a slope usually your groundwater has a slope to it it may not match exactly uh variabilities in the soil voids all those different characteristics can have an effect on what that water table elevation does uh as it relates to the groundwater elevation or the ground elevation but uh that's generally what it does so you ultimately during that storm you're going to have that interflow as it's identified on this graphic um working to equalize and get back to uh what it's used to overall uh as you can understand or expect you know groundwater Flows at a much slower rate than surface runoff uh which is why if you go ahead and turn a site from brass and uh lawn into impervious surface and you get get that water moving it moves much quicker than it does through the ground um that's what you're uh uh you're trying to fight when you put in that uh storm water system the uh major effect on groundwater is confining layers confining layer is just a soil type that really does not percolate very well uh it usually acts as a u an impediment to flow it doesn't mean it won't flow through that layer it just means it takes it a really long time to do so so that leads into discussion on closed basins we talked about a little bit earlier these are areas where the water falls in that Bas and and the collection point doesn't have an outfall ultimately to the ocean so like I said West valua has a large number of these vast majority of the uh subdivisions in in town a lot of the developments in town go to closed basins the problem with that is that uh those areas are highly susceptible to flooding particularly if you've got a confining layer something along those lines that really does not allow that water to percolate out so since percolation is your only means as I said a confining layer really kills kills your uh ability to recover as well as higher amounts of rainfall and that doesn't mean a big storm alone that means continuous rain at higher rate over a longer period of time which is generally going to be worse for you than if you have one localized big storm only means of recovery is the percolation you're not there's no calculation for evaporation at that point no okay no the uh again we exclude it to a large part because it it's a safety Factor there is some that does occur but as far as control over that aspect of it there's minimal control over it it's uh greatly dependent on your weather conditions your air conditions that aspect of it and there's no good way to model something you don't have control over so so um this is the average rainfall annual rainfall for uh the city of Dand this is uh so you can see for example back in 2000 that was a pretty nice year it was 40 42 inches then it jumped up to 76 then down to 62 53 and there's quite a bit of variability really until you get to about 2009 2010 and then you start to see things generally even out the issue gets to be this last six years seven years when you take a look at five out of six years you're up above 60 in is that's a large amount of rain in a short period of time on top of a previous year with that same condition so you know you get into those closed Basin discussions when you get those types of situations uh you really just don't have the ability to recover and so a lot of these closed basins particularly if there a combining layer you're going to hold water okay and you know remember when rain falls it becomes either surface runoff or it becomes groundwater both of those will end up at the low spot in a closed Basin the groundwater will just take longer to get there but it still gets there and it still all goes to that same place so whether or not you've got an undeveloped site where a vast majority of it soaks into the ground first as opposed to runs off versus a post-development site where a large amount of it runs off and some of it percolates all of that water still ends up at the bottom it doesn't go anywhere else so particularly with closed basins you know flooding is a problem not so much necessarily because of the development that may occur but because there's no means for Recovery with that kind of confining layer so Alex has a question it's more of a a statement for the the members of the inra here um so by 2100 my daughter is going to be about 75 and the rain the annual rainfall if we apply that DOD change coefficient is about 87 in of annual rainfall into land which is much higher than all of those um so just kind of factor that into play when when you're thinking about what we should be doing with our regulations okay so that uh I think that pretty much covers attenuation flooding aspects of it did mention that we talk about treatment don't don't plan on talking about this too much uh the county does not regulate uh treatment overall we basically leave that to the state and the feds and and a large part of that is simply because we don't have the uh expertise or chemical capability to make recommendations on something along those lines anytime you're designing a storm water system you'll take a look at the Water Management District criteria um and uh when you look back through their manuals they actually provide quite a bit of background in the science that they performed for generating the amount of treatment that should be needed or developing how storm water ponds work uh overall we don't have the ability to duplicate that so our recommendation at this point is to uh U to follow those rules or make an recommendation but something that doesn't specifically rely on heavy science to arrive at it that said Water Management District and the uh d as I said regulate treatment treatment is basically picking up that first flush of uh water that uh Falls in that Basin the idea being that uh if the pollution is above ground that water hits it and either picks it up or mixes with it and then moves on and any later portions of the storm are picking up at such a diminished rate that it's not worth tracking so your storm water Pond or your storm water system must retain that first flush does not allow we talked about discharge control structures and that allows water to move out of your system uh but in this case with treatment that volume has to be retained within the pond so there's certain designs that we put into those discharge control structures that make sure that that portion of the water does not uh does not leave the pond and then uh so how does treatment occur in wet ponds or wet systems it's basically sunlight and oxygen chemically breaking down whatever the pollutant are in that area uh dry ponds or dry systems uh the treatment is predominantly through filtration and then uh the little uh germs in the ground the little uh um little uh microbes will go ahead and eat whatever is in there overall which is pretty much how filtration works so so that was going to cover the basics on anything go ahead bill so even though the um State regulates treatment they have special Basin criteria for impaired water bodies right so cor different areas are treated to a different level correct there are different uh treatment standards overall and I just gave it a a quick blush so but uh but thank you yes there the state has uh water quality data on a vast majority of the basins um to identify which ones may be impaired overall as a part of that uh if it is impaired then there's a different criteria for your storm water uh overall depending on the type of impairment uh vast majority of them are it nitrogen or phosphorus yeah the things that you T typically find in fertilizer strangely enough yeah so your your your pond design gets modified to specifically try to attack that particular type of pollutant so again just keeping it simple and I do think most of the microbes that are I mean they're doing denitrification they're handling the nitrogen load but the phosphorus just typically accumulates unless there's an uptake by plants and then those plants get harvested and hauled away and then I mean there's also heavy metals that can accumulate that are also you know not typically handled by microbes so I mean the wet ponds we have trouble with phosphorus not being it phosphorus you maybe get 40% removal and so if we need higher than 40% removal you usually have to pre-treat with a dry Pond or use some other system modifier right that's good to get the trying to avoid winding Tyler up yeah and then when you have a dry Pond it goes in front of the wet Pond which means that your entire development has to go be built up so you can get that positive flow in to your tail water okay all right so we talked about a lot of stuff ran through a lot of things go ahead sorry um I'm not a real loud person I'm not going to demand to speak so if I put up my card um I I just um I I would like to request a 2070 map um I brought that up in the very first meeting I attended back in December and it seemed like the group had already covered it but I I wasn't here when you did cover it so I'd like the 2070 map I assume you know what the hell that is yeah yeah you so the 2070 map um I serve on the valua forever committee and when we set the criteria for valua forever we had 2040 and 2070 Maps um for vucha County put up on the screen that showed us the future flooding in Bia County and I would really like to have a copy of that um if you guys have already covered that that's great but I would like to have a copy of it is that the 10,000 fronts of Florida is it the uh no sea level rise 2070 map is that what you're referring yes okay all right level rise yeah we can get that okay um T maybe we usually take a break around 2:30 okay so so maybe it's a good time now before we go into the real world example does that make sense okay 10 minute break everybody everybody back at 235 is that enough time to run half walls e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e thank you EV thank you everyone who came came back to their chairs or is coming back to their chair can we're going to reconvene our meeting and look at the Hampton Inn it's not an advertisement for Hampton Inn by the way I don't own sock this is uh I thought it make sense to go ahead and kind of go through a project it always helped me when I was learning uh a topic to to be able to apply those aspects and I didn't want to assign homework so I figured we'd go through it as a group um overall but uh the uh the Hampton Insight is north of town here uh Northwest of the uh quadrant of us92 and 17 that area overall I'm assuming that pretty much everybody is familiar with it uh overall but did highlight it on there to the uh to the west back up to the West you got also on here you got Lake Gertie area overall and part of the reason I chose this was for that Basin uh as well as being familiar with the uh the area overall but uh Lake Gertie Basin is a closed Basin water that uh percolates down to uh Lake Gertie doesn't go anywhere so during the Hurricanes uh water level in there Rose quite a bit back in 2005 2006 uh even got into some people's homes on the south end for that reason uh this site the Hampton in site uh outlined in yellow all of this ultimately drains down uh and there's the lake Gertie Basin so it's a portion of it it's actually located the Hampton area it's located basically at the end of this now this part of the reason I bring this up is this is a USGS quad map this was how we used to figure out what our elevations were before top graphic survey was done so like Tyler said one of the first things you'll do when you're taking a look at the site is pull up the preliminary information while you're waiting for your Geotech and your surveyors to uh to uh go out there and get the site specific information but this would allow you to have some kind of idea of what you might be dealing with overall also makes it easier with these to identify where the Basin lines are so it's easy for everybody to kind of follow along with what water is going to to Lake Gertie so so this is a little all right so this exhibit this is uh actually from the engineering plans overall and you'll see that it's got uh two parts on there the uh the boulder lines the ones that are easier to see are what was being designed or what was being going to be constructed the uh the lighter lines the dash lines those are the existing uh elements on the site prior to any of the work being done and I apologize I only have this in PDF uh so I can't strip any of the layers off but you can see these are the U the existing ground elevations prior to any work being done out there at the Hampton in these your contour lines uh the lower section is here to the uh to the left with uh us7 the high point over here on the right and for those of you that like Culver's that would be right here so yep we're down around 51 at certain portions because obviously change or tweak a little bit over here it's about 57 didn't say up here we're at 83 86 along the road 87 in that range so part of the reason I chose a large amount of fall okay and uh well for this state it is definitely a hell God dang know so um when you got this much fall obviously it makes it pretty easy to figure out where you want to put your storm water pond water likes to go downhill so you're obviously not going to put it next to us7 you're going to put it at the bottom portion of the Hill which is what we've identified uh for doing so we're using gravity's effect on storm water to get it where we want it either as groundwater or as uh as storm water runoff okay now as a part of any of these developments and I apologize for switching back and forth but prepare a set of storm water calculation we've had the survey we know what we're dealing with and now we've got to go ahead and start doing some of the modeling we talked about to figure out how much storm water runoff is going to occur versus the pre-existing conditions so um as part of our calculations we generally put in a summary uh we include some reference Maps so that everybody knows the area that we're talking about uh picture of the existing conditions uh Tyler had mentioned for example uh soils Maps uh overall this is one of the things that we included in there so you can see what kind of soils types are uh are responsible we include the uh flood plane as identified at that point in time again you can kind of see kind of what I was speaking to a little bit earlier that was the line that FEMA identifies you can see it doesn't clearly match up with what the aerial has and what the actual existing condition was they were just doing the best they had with what they got so that would be something all right so the first thing we're going to look at is our predevelopment so we take a look at the existing condition and we take those Contours that we saw on that previous and we'd identify our storm water Bas right storm water basically runs perpendicular to our contour lines that's the proudness for uh for figuring out where the water goes so this was the high area over here at 17 going to Lake Gertie at the bottom area over here you can see the water generally flows from east to west or right to left uh there was prior to the Hampton in going in if you've been here for a while took uh I couldn't remember what it was Storm's been here forever so storm reminded me that this was a bank but there was a bank on the property with this initial uh driveway for Access as a part of their development they had cut in this small storm water Pond where the water would overflow from the bank site via a ditch down to this storm wall pond so you can see this is the Basin delineation this was in point of fact its own subbasin all the water that fell in this area made its way to this then after that if it would discharge or get high enough to discharge it would overflow into Lake Gertie if it didn't it would percolate into the ground and the groundwater would move down to Lake Gertie but we want to make sure that we're accounting for what the existing condition was that's why we go ahead and spell that out and uh and identify if that as its own separate base but you can see on the North side and the South Side those are still Bas and B uh ultimately making their way down to to the uh Lake Gertie Basin so we talked about curve numbers before we take a look at what the curve numbers are this is the First Basin so we look at Basin a we determine how much of uh it was surface was impervious versus uh naturally existing we go ahead and identify those and move on in this case we had the benefit of the storm water calculations that were prepared by the previous engineer reviewed them didn't see any problems with it he'd assigned a curve number of 51 and when you look at the bank size versus that entire Bas and you go yeah that's probably not too bad a number overall yes this is a lot of impervious but when you compare it to the overall Basin amount it's not that high a percentage and that's what you're doing is basically you're you're doing a pro-rated number so when get into Bas and B there were two different types had some uh that were a soils go back up here to to this so four is aula which is an a soil then you had 61 which was a BD soils so you take the worst case scenario so you talk about a d so that's why when you take a look at how we're prorating the curve number we've got one number number that's good and one number that's bad make that determination on the amount of area you calculate that multiply it out come to an average and that's what you end up with for your storm water model for your curve number overall so and again it's a low number so it means it's soaking a lot of that water in overall so we've got to maintain that uh then one of the things we'll do is because there is a depression or in this case actually a pond we just consider a depression and the precondition but we have to model that can't just assume or ignore that portion of it it is holding water it's impounding that aspect of it so we've got to make sure that we model that in the system overall so we take that survey information we figure out what the volumes are based on the elevation that the water would rise to put all of this into a fancy little computer program and it tells us what our volume and what our rates are overall then we do basically that same thing with the post-development Basin we'll put down the different improvements that we're putting in and then so for example you remember up here this was part of B we're not touching anything over here we're not impeding that that's still flow so we're trying to make sure that that stays out we don't don't really want to bring that into our system we don't want to have to uh to treat that or do anything along those lines it's natural existing so we want it to stay that way to mimic the existing condition as much as possible top of that we bring it in and it does increase the size of the storm water Pond uh more than would be necessary so we' separate that section out Basin 2 and then we've got Basin one which now is the area that we've made changes to and again we're going back through determining the area of the bank site the hotel pool sidewalk parking areas coming up with that total volume or total area then again because like we said once water falls in an area in a retention Pond or a wetland once water hits water it all runs off so we consider all of that area uh impervious surface even though that first rain portion of it is going to immediately soak in and be ground and it's a little safer factor that we apply in there uh overall we take all of those and then we prate them so that we figure out what our curve number is in that post condition you basically uh put in our pond as the depression now run all of that to figure out what amount of uh discharge we're going to have at that point in time we know the size the pond for that volume so we don't have to worry about that aspect when we specifically model we're just worried about the rate now one of the things we also take a look at we talked about a little bit was treatment obviously have to treat everything this is the criteria that the Water Management District basically Ed or used at the time let me put it that way uh there were two two different categories that you looked at the amount of impervious or uh versus the overall Basin if it an inch and a quarter over that was greater than an inch over the entire area whichever number was greater that's what you used for your uh volume necessary to be retained in your storm water pond so when we calculate the volume in our storm water Pond we put in that factor as well as what we got from our model to identify our discharge control structure get into all the science that in itself is probably more sciency than it needs to be but we use that model to predict all of that so this is the input it's part of the calculations you always give the input because uh unscrupulous like type people can go ahead and make changes in there and not uh publicize it you want to make sure that you have every all your criteria that you've used for identifying and running your model so that there are any errors or anything needs to be questioned it's all there and then you go back to this lovely little print out at the end and this is where you're ultimately making the [Music] comparison between the different rates so depression a it's discharge and then 98 W and I won't get into what the terms mean but 98 W is basically late Gertie in the precondition uh overall so you're looking at what discharg to that and the Russian a was discharging 12.6 except for pardon me I got backwards discharging 16 and in the post condition we're discharging two so you can see that we're not discharging very much water at all so that's what your goal would be overall with your system and that's the requirement you have to meet to uh to get your system in place now there are different things that you look at outside of your calculations the numbers are great that's important U but when you go to your plan one of the things that uh we mentioned earlier was where did we put the pond we put it at the low spot okay when you've got a slope like this one and this is not the regular condition as we talked about um basically on a hill so you built up we built up this Downstream side this being West right being North weot rot 90° but uh you've got a situation where you're building up on a hill and now you got the possibility where this area may have percolation and actually cause you a problem so uh any of the storm water ponds that get built on Hills one of the best things you can do is make sure that the water percolates through um it's not blowing that side out and then you lose your storm water Pond uh remember back I think it was during the 2005 Hurricane uh on the west side of town the Cascades over there off of 15a the new section has a pond at the top of the hill and it had that same exact condition where there was a lot of water coming through much more than any of the design storms had and it blew out that side and all that water ended up in the depression to the South that sinkhole down there which is a problem so we designed this one of the things that we put in there just to make sure as a even though we're not really in much of a bump that amount of water moving this way is different than what it typically is used to so we went ahead and had them put in uh what we call a clay core which is basically just a line of clay and remember clay doesn't percolate very well it does percolate but it doesn't percolate very well and basically what that does is that cuts off that flow of water in that particular direction now it doesn't stop it clay core the water will still go underneath or around uh as well as a small amount through but what that does is that keeps that ability for that water to get during a large storm to find a weak point and blow through that and create a catastrophic situation where you're discharging to the lake Gertie Basin so which you don't want so appreciate everybody staying awake for that part bye nope no never had a problem with it yeah this was built in uh 2014 and hasn't had much of an issue now the benefit it has uh at this point is that uh at this point the only thing that's actually been built is the hotel so it's the only thing utilizing this pond so the pond is designed to be able to take the Culver in this particular lot not this one um but because there's nothing else coming in that space to is a little bit overdesigned at this point so well I'd love to say that oh my pawns never overflow and they haven't yet but that's not why in this case yes ma'am yeah everything on that side sorry everything ancillary to that use sure what how do you envision that system working there or they going to I don't know if Hampton owns that or they going to utilize that same retention area or are they going to have a separate retention area I can't I haven't actually looked at their particular uh site plan overall to know exactly what they're doing when we do a subdivision like this and this people think of subdivisions they think homes it's not it's it's a division of property overall this is a commercial subdivision and created Lots one three and four to be built on in the future we do design the pond to account for certain P certain Parcels like I said one and three are both included in this one but we assume a certain amount of impervious surface so and that's generally how we do it with our residential subdivisions as well and uh you know as long as they're not exceeding that percentage and I have don't remember what the hell we'd assumed whether it was 60% or 25% or 100% um it wasn't 100% uh if it exceeds that percentage then they would need to do something on their side or they could potentially come back and modify the pond you can see there's an area over here that we left so that the natural flow of this this section was not Disturbed they could also increase it in this direction or they can go ahead and do something on their particular site uh overall so there's different options but yeah yeah sure um throughout this process are any um is there any consideration to what what the ponds are doing to the surrounding groundwater and how that may affect other properties because I've in recent years I've had people within the county come to me about storm water ponds being installed near their their property and because of that the thought is that that storm water Pond or those those ponds around them uh have raised the the water table because of various pumps or or what have you there so just trying to get some insight well that that's actually one of the things that uh that we've identified as a potential correction that could be made to to the requirements for the storm water rules right now the storm water rules just take a look at the volumes and the rates They Don't Really specifically look at where a pond may be located so for example in this particular one of the things that would be bad about this design okay as far as the effect on the surrounding properties would be that you know because this is a pretty good Hill this is the only place it makes sense to do a storm water system yeah we've now taken water that would have percolated over this side again turn it into runoff which is a faster moving and put it here now we returned it basically back to groundwater condition but we've also short circuited this distance from you know the far reaches over here to here and we give it a shortcut so there is the potential that yes we've created more groundwater conditions sooner it's the same amount of water yeah okay again it's a closed Basin the water is not going anywhere but too late Gertie it's just the speed at which it gets there in this case we have shortened that speed or increased that speed so to speak overall that said the clay liner the other aspect of it does Act as a as a barrier and slow it back down okay now we don't do didn't do any modeling in this case to determine whether or not it was the appropriate amount of slowing it down or not yeah um we were just busy patting ourselves on the back for not creating a catastrophic condition so yeah go ahead you come the local government side being primarily design professional engineer now you see problems have to solve them cap the projects do you this is a a really gross generalization question but do you see any kind of consistency in why um why a drainage whether it's a project or just the drainage design doesn't work well I would say that there different reasons designs don't work that said I wouldn't say it was because I moved over to this aspect sure someone else uh who is a PE who when they went to a different side um all of a sudden saw lots of problems well that had to be Sol yeah what I'll say is I I think more about the rules in certain ways than I did before I mean obviously when you're a when you're being paid by a developer or somebody you know I mean we developer is a big word I mean a lot of the clients I had were small mom and pop type people overall so but uh you're just thinking about what is the most efficient way to meet the rules and get it done now I will say that I always thought I perform rather ethically in try to consider all the different things that would occur um but at the same time I didn't spend as much time on that as I was look I need to get this done and figure out what are the different things I do have a lot of faith in the rules as they are now are they complete no that's what we're trying to address as a part of this and I'll be bringing forward some of our suggestions as we talk about the rules a little bit on uh different gaps and along those lines and the things that I think of are um well I'll say by going to government I have access to more uh situations than I had on the private side overall so we do see a lot more along those lines and you get a chance to see what other Engineers do and uh and uh how they've reacted to different things or did not react to certain things so yes there is that aspect of it but sorry but uh no a when there is something that's not working correctly you don't see necessarily a consistent reason for why yes I would say I see more individual reasons why something didn't work something an engineer didn't consider overall um there are some gaps in the rules as I said that again I didn't spend that much time thinking about when I was on the private side versus now I mean um some things just don't become obvious or evident I'd say that uh you know we looked at the rainfall patterns for example for uh Dand overall and that's a pretty big change when you start going from extremes to a more even number um the fact that that even number is higher than the average was before that's the bigger problem and then you start trigging how how do we solve that how do we account for that aspect of It kind of ties in with what Alex was going with with regard to you know do these storms change do we need to take a look at changing these aspects of it based on the overall conditions and you start to see things like that you say Yes um so you see more of those types of things uh overall not necessarily as many patterns it's still uh still tough to see patterns until you really dig into them and go looking for them like an effort like this creates yes Tyler I was say I think for the large part where I have trouble with the question that you're asking Tad there is that we don't see a lot of examples of failed to engineering we see a lot of examples of the engineering met all of the standards and either the standards were insufficient or like if we look at Crystal Cove to land the subdivision that went underwater they permitted 1500t houses with whatever impervious coverage and then everybody got a pool and a bunch of other stuff and they doubled the impervious coverage and I mean on top of it having Traditional High Water Table in that area I think that a lot of this is we built in areas before we had standards that today would require more modifications to build in and how do we deal with this existing problem and not make it worse with what we do adjacent to it and things of that nature but I think usually it's it's omissions or large errors that would be the engineering failures that you're going to see on the specific cases and I mean of course there's design differences and tweaks that we as Engineers learn you know at the beginning of our career we don't really know all the art that we have at the end of a career and you learn from your mistakes but those are usually maintenance mistakes when I worked at dot there's a lot of outfall systems and structures and an overflow on a burm is a great way for us to get water out of a pond do doesn't allow that anymore because they don't go check those Weirs often enough and they were failing and having Pond failures and other things and so it's as a maintenance decision there are some different designs that we work with as well but that that's again not really going into the modeling or the things that cause the flooding as much that's kind of why we're here though is to look at those standards and and update them so that's a great real world thank uh example Jessica has a question but I have a question too first um do you have anything more that you're going to share with us today no I'm letting you off the hook wow okay so it is raining and it is 3:10 I have a couple of announcements and we may have other questions but it looks like class might get dismissed early today depending upon the question that Jessica wants to ask me and Tad could talk for hours um I'm glad we brought a maintenance I wanted to see and it might build in more on the next kind of discussions in terms of State rules um there's a I'll preface this by saying there's a lot of discussion in the community now um regarding hurricane Ian and Nicole and there is the statement to be made that no communities plan for natural disasters and so you have to choose a a reasonable basis to measure for Based on data and so part of the discussion and kind of information I'm hoping we can look at is what does it look like if you you know we see suggestions from different groups that the 25 year isn't enough we need to use the 100 year or we need to use the 150 is there anything out there that shows jumping from 25 to 100 has this much change in terms of volume or area on a site that's needed or additional cost or anything like that and the second part of that is as it goes to maintenance when you're designing these you're contemplating a functional system if you have places where it pops off and goes down different Canal systems does the modeling buildin say during a storm event on the coast so let's take East valua the Halifax River back flooding into the canal system while you're going out with your flow like is that all contemplated the uh I'll tackle the second part because you asked that's the part I remember uh when we model again what we're taking a look at is uh for a system like that on the on the ocean or on the river immediately adjacent to the ocean we're taking a look at the tail water condition and uh is what we call that and we're taking a look at the seasonal conditions on that as you noted um the designs are not anticipating a hundred-year storm and functioning during that because for the most part nothing does I mean that's that's the whole idea behind it um you're going to have flooding to a certain level and you know flooding sounds like a bad word but you know if uh after it range you've got water in your yard that's not flooding people call it flooding but that's not flooding I mean you know and as far as the county and and most of the state agencies what we're looking at is water in homes which is part of the reason and we went through the discussion on the design what those elevations get set that those are all things trying to design to make sure that doesn't occur uh on the new developments um but no we don't there's nothing to take into account whether it was I can't remember Zan or Nicole where we had the king tide at the same time and that's a vast majority of the reason that new smna beach had all those problems I mean you're there's no place for the water to go in much the same situation if you had enough sea level rise where it wasn't working those are the areas that we get affected so what was the first one oh the maintenance no no we we're yeah part part of the reason um we don't do that is because uh one the system is already oversized to a certain extent anyway there are already safety factors built in and and every portion of it uh overall so for example if you get uh sediment or something in your pipes assuming you got a closed storm water system with pipes it's getting it from your subdivision road to your storm water Pond if there's something in there one the expectation is those P those pipes are designed with a certain amount of velocity so that you get scour so that pushes Whatever May uh drop into that area for example um as it relates to the swarmm water ponds uh part of the reason those are one of the popular choices for developers and Engineers alike is they take almost no maintenance you depending on which Water Management District you talk to uh St John's wants you to go out and mow your storm water ponds South Florida says screw that those plants are soaking up the material and they're creating the chemistry that you want but it just depends on where you are as to whether it's good or bad as that relates to maintenance the point is if you don't maintain your storm water Pond a vast majority of it is going to operate exactly as designed throughout anyway um the biggest concern you'd have in terms of Maintenance would be your discharge control structure overall one of the things that uh was changed quite some time ago was the requirement for HOAs so part of the reason that HOAs are important at new subdivisions is because now you have an entity responsible for going out there and accounting for that instead of just everybody pointing their finger at somebody else to do it so no for all those reasons no we don't bother to put in a maintenance Factor overall bill so that what caught my attention from her question was um what would be the difference if you designed instead of the 25y Year 24-hour storm event to the something else 100 Year whatever would it be four times as much or would it be 5% more kind of no I mean if you recall for example from I know it wasn't up there very long but the uh differences in in the open Basin and the closed Basin there were two different storms you looked at the uh 25 24hour storm in the uh open basing condition was 8 inches if I recall right and then the uh 2596 was 11 Ines okay that's sounds like a lot but it's not really a lot uh 100-year 24hour storm for example is 11.3 Ines so they're right around that same level overall so you know if you change it from a 100 years or 25e storm to a 100e storm no you're not going to double or triple the size of your Pond I don't know exactly what the percentage would be there are too many other factors you know if you got large Lots small Lots uh how much impervious surface you have versus it you know that would that would play into how much runoff volume you've got to retain but uh no I'd probably say that you're looking at about one and a half times if you go from a 25 24 to 100 would probably be my guess but it would be a guess on this side we have some questions too John John Suzanne and Tyler and same one the government follows too but yeah I guess my question would be I didn't turn it back on I guess my question would be uh how do you you utilize the storm water fees uh and whether it's administratively or to correct errors or those kind of things and and explaining that public side that you have to deal with as well and I know a lot of that's probably Road and Bridge but at the same time it's all interconnected sure yeah it as you said uh my group does not oversee the storm water portion of it so I'm going to make some up and hopefully it sounds good so um no uh actually they just had a had a big had a big discussion on it at County Council yesterday so uh your fee will be going up uh so but uh what the storm water fee is used for one is for studying the existing storm water basins that we do have not the small ones like the Hampton in not that aspect but the much larger areas like little Hall Creek and you know those of of that size so what they'll do is one they've got a study some of them they have studied I don't know which ones that's more than I know but uh they've got some studies they're going to do some more studies uh overall and then from those they'll identify capital projects so for example if you've got flooding in a closed Basin they would try to look at what could we do to move the water out of this Basin into an open basin to alleviate flooding um that would be what they tried to identify the other portion of it too with the storm water utility is uh water treatment so for example we've got the Indian River Basin which has uh uh issues with pluen loading and those types of things so they will use a portion of that to go identify projects to try to remove those particular pollutants uh over on a on a large scale again not trying to save some commercial developer a few bucks it's really trying to go back to those areas that are already built out and uh try to rectify the situations there uh I could not tell you what the percentage breakdown is I do know that they're from what I recall they were discussing yesterday they're going to jump right into two studies uh as soon as possible and then start identifying projects from those so did that both parts I couldn't remember which okay so you almost answered pretty much I was going to ask you about item 10 yesterday and that's what you were just covering um I wanted to know if you knew what the two studies were that you just said yeah I don't okay and what was the price that they raised it it was $650 8ct okay yeah and I actually wasn't in the room that was what I heard but yeah and the study the study that was it was 500 Pages plus 514 um do you know what basins were studied I was just curious again I I I don't know the details on that we can find out and uh we'll send an email out to the group though did you get what she was asking okay guess I should unmute my microphone on the rate item and volume item one of the things that I want point out is we're looking at differential rates and differential volumes so when we increase our storm event and especially in an area that's got po soils or really high water tables and what curve numers actually scientifically in the math I appreciate that Tad didn't try to get into all the details but it's a measure of soil storage and there's a lot of formulas behind it so when we get to those soils that have po storage capabilities the differential volume change from going from a 25 years storm to a 500-year storm isn't as big as the volume change in the storm because our pre-development runoff goes off goes off the charts as well and when we start getting into some of these longer duration storms which dot runs 50 storms some agencies we design three some agencies we have to design all the way up to the 50 storm Matrix those 50 storms rarely are harder for us to make work than the three or four select design storms that agencies choose they just cover every possible situation because do really doesn't want their roads to have flooding or other issues it's it's a conservative approach that they're taking because of the level of facility that it is so as we start talking about these things the hydr hydrologic soil group that we're dealing with that ABC or D the ground cover type that we're dealing with the actual components of that pre-post model model are really that that's the nuts and bolts of what we're dealing with more than the storm event on making our stuff work I mean more water is more water and it gets more challenging for us in some ways but it doesn't just automatically mean that when we go to a bigger storm that it's going to drastically change what we're doing so Tyler you just went through a lot of technical stuff about fot but um over but everything you just said can we can we sort of like hold on to that and when we you know one month or two months from now really start looking at new language for for revisions of ordinance is there some useful stuff in the F do standards that we can reach into I I don't think so for what we're dealing with the way that the county approaches storm water there and I know that dad's going to get into this more in the next discussion um but there are some conservative elements of the existing code versus the state code and it's done in a way that some it simplifies it to where there's less games that we can play in our software the the county would have to look for and I don't think it's a bad approach that's been taken in the past um dot takes a complicating approach to things and it's a lot more expensive but they're doing it for their own facilities that are bigger and that we spend millions of dollars engineering instead of individual sites so I think there's things that would be educational but not necessarily that translate perfectly across okay maybe we can come back to it will we next time hear about Beyond open base and Clos base and certain areas or certain discharge patterns that require increased review well next one we're going to cover what the rules require both ourselves and at the state so any of those aspects covered in the rules will be identified yes good though and then the third time you're going to come back with recommendations for changes if we don't get to it next time yes an additional question that's a great segue into several topics that still have to be covered you'll recall that in our last meeting we decided not to come back to the tree ordinance our favorite thing because uh Keith is not here today because he's out finding those examples of how other jurisdictions have dealt with some of the issues that we have before us and because storm water is a learning curve for us we've presumed how did you put it sarily none of us were none of us were GE geote technologists um no that we would start our learning about storm water so I didn't ask maybe Sam knows if our next meeting so that we can begin preparing ourselves if we're going to be looking at trees or looking at continuing education on storm water from what I'm aware is that we are going to continue on storm water for the next two months okay and we may on that second month have an liid discussion as well okay great and that of course stb Hils with our instructions from Council as well to be dealing with this thank you so the next thing and I don't know if Chris who's over in the corner talking knows the answer to this or not we still have to give our annual report and our work plan to the County council at some point we do yes and I know that many of us would like to be present for that do we have any I'll give you warning for sure it won't be on the 16th agenda but it maybe on the first meeting in May I got to confirm with County management though um so I'll get back with you thank you and then the third thing that I have H is a very um and it comes from clay Irvin and and from me but a a a big request that you consider attending the workshop on April 30th which will deal with permitting and Zoning it will be here again April 30th at 3 pm in council chambers and it would be great if we could be there and and listening yes it is a council Workshop zoning and permitting it'll be relevant to our discussions at at minimum tangentially um and I don't know I don't know if anybody is interested in this but yesterday the Belia Economic Development Group sent out an email that had a links to maps that I don't know that they're that new for the county but they were presenting them as new with with layers GIS stuff you can play with but with the future land use and with all the zonings on them which was kind of fun to play around with and look at and will be relevant maybe to that meeting so that's it for my examples um for my announcements rather uh anybody have Bob you have something yeah I just wanted to come back to like the big overriding issue I've been campaigning on all the way through trees and it applies to engineering I you know I speak for myself here and and I think uh you know there's agreement in the industry that we would rather see slightly more stringent regulations provided navigating the the Maze of getting our permits was made simpler that you know we we talked about that at nauseum on the trees is ways to get to that goal that are easier quicker easier on staff so anyway to apply the same philosophy here on storm water if there are ways to make it easier to get to that goal if we have to make it a little more the regulations a little more stringent to make them easier I think there would be a lot of Buy in I I I want to jump in for that for just a second Jack and then um that's something that I think that the whole group has embraced is how do we how do we make things simpler for the public to understand the liid manual will eventually be really interesting to look at it because I'm thinking of it as One-Stop shopping um but I have no idea personally how we would do that I I really don't know and so you know we can just keep our we'll just we'll just put Sam on it I and and I'm not even I'm not even sure we need to put a hold on all of Bob's permits I'm not even sure it's something we've nibbled at the edges of it so a lot of the things that we approved were were fixing discrepancies and and making language a little more understandable but I don't know and now I'll let Jack talk because he usually makes a lot of sense no I don't know um but but the but this Workshop that they're talking about is to drive efficiencies that's one of the things that the points they made so perhaps that's to some extent what they're trying to get to you know the workshop may actually be in that direction um but my my question is about the uh about the workshop and and what is our level of participation I mean in the workshop who are we who are who's talking to who and we're attending so I was just wondering how that how we fit in the workshop typically all we can do is listen there's usually usually not a public comments period or a discussion with the public but I have the ones I've attended on topics obviously that I was interested in I have always come away glad that I was in the room yes to Jack um that was the reason I actually um the council um said yesterday in closing comments that there are going to be no public comments that that's their time to work because they of Sunshine Law they don't get to talk about these things so they plan to discuss them there and they're not allowing public comment now with that being said I I just want to say that part of the reason this Workshop um came about in the first place um was because of what is going on with the fuel terminal in Orman Beach right now and the industrial 2 zoning the I2 zoning and um that is going to be discussed to my understanding um so if you have anything to say prior to the workshop with comments you might want to go to the meeting on the 16th and say them then so just putting that out there okay if there's nothing else do we need a motion to adjourn no we don't need a motion to adjourn get to your cars before the rain it's coming down again thank you very much everybody look forward to seeing you next month e