e thank you good evening everyone welcome to West Orange town hall for our town council meeting tonight uh we are going to begin with uh some presentations of from um the vision zero action plan task force um and then following them our health department director um is going to make a presentation as well so if Vision zero is is ready are we ready I have to do the open I'm that's okay this is to inform the general public that this meeting is being held in compliance with Section Five of the open public meetings act chapter 231 Public Law 1975 the annual notice was emailed to The Star Ledger and filed in the township clerk's office on November 21st 2023 and published in the West Orange Chronicle on November 30th 2023 councilwoman gber Michael present councilwoman Scarpa present councilwoman Williams present council president Rutherford here mayor McCartney thank you uh Madam clerk um we are going to Madame mayor G to introduce our vision Zer sure thanks so good evening everyone uh first on the agenda tonight is a vision zero presentation and I think that was it I'm not going to read that whole list but there are so many people that are involved in this Vision zero action task a action plan task force and um combination from Department of Transportation the nv5 Consultants that we have the badani foundation members from our pedestrian safety board is here many members there um superintendents from our schools so there are many people that have been involved with this action plan and now you will quickly learn that this is a call to action for safety uh for our Township um I have a letter that's in this action plan that talks about we are looking for qual quality of life for all ages uh Mobility safety pedestrian safety vehicular safety and and um an action plan a task force put this together that we will soon learn how to implement this and what we need to do um and I did just hear from our grant writer that the safe streets and roads for all Grant is coming online so we will definitely implement this into that plan to help with the funding so that we can get this off the ground so I Sita Rashana I'm not sure good evening everyone good evening thank you for giving me this opportunity to speak here um I'm just going to give you a little background on how this started so in 2021 uh we initiated the discussion with mayor paresi and uh to establish this Vision zero task force that would study examine and review all aspects of Traffic Safety in West Orange with particular focus on access equity and Mobility for all uh soon after that the resolution was passed to establish the vision Z task force many of you members signed off on that and uh we then applied to ngot for a local technical assistance program um in collaboration with vision zero New Jersey Alliance and uh there were many calls that were made to ngj doot specifically to build Rivera he knows that they were between over six months and we ended up securing this Grant and they then subsequently recruited nv5 to to the study for us in collaboration with the vision zero task force so what I just want to emphasize over here that we have a great action plan a very comprehensive action plan but we need to now make sure that we can implement it effectively and we do need a dedicated team to implement this Koken Jersey City these are some of the cities in New Jersey and also Princeton they are all now embracing this Vision zero action plan but they all have a dedicated team so without a team we will not be able to monitor the progress and be successful in our execution so it's really really critical that we have a dedicated team for this also just like mayor McCartney mentioned there are funding opportunities and nvi is is going to review some of those but the biggest one is a federal bipartisan infrastructure law that allocated five billion for vision zero action plan development and implementation and so we are in the third round of that funding now and there is a deadline of April or May to apply for those funds so again just want to make sure that we are keeping that in mind that we are going to need a team to implement this action plan thank you nv5 um I'm g go to the next slide you want me to turn the light off over here just to make it a little more um if you want to you don't have to thank you so thank you mayor um and thank you Sangita so I just wanted to um give you a big brief overview of what the vision zero action plan that uh we developed includes um but a quick introduction um so we are part of the consultant team that is hired that uh is is on call with the New Jersey Department of transportations Bureau of safety bicycle and pession programs um West Oren Township applied for funding through the local technical assistance program and they were awarded that Grant and that's where we came in uh with our subc Consultants which is Civic ey that developed uh if you went to the Township's YouTube channel we have a we have a video that talks about what is Vision zero and why we're doing this in West Orange uh with me today I have my colleague Brian and Colin uh who are going to also be uh stepping up here to share some of the details of the plan so just to uh give you an overview of what our overall timeline was uh we had three phases uh data collection system evaluation and then prepar the overall draft and final plan uh we're going to go through some of the details of all of these phases in the later slides I just wanted to give you a big picture um this is the overall outline of today's presentation I we I understand that we have a very short window here um so we're going to talk quickly about what is Vision zero why it's important uh give you an overview of the project uh a quick summary of the Outreach that was conducted uh quick summary of the crash analysis and what a high Injury Network is and then what the action plan actually includes and some key important next steps uh the general assumption here is that at Le that uh at the Town Council has had a chance to scan through the overall plan and when the plan is posted online uh the public can Community can go back to reviewing some of the details of the plan so what is Vision zero um Vision zero is is a worldwide movement that acknowledges that even one depth in our on our transp on our roads is unacceptable it was started it was first adopted in Sweden in 1997 and then since then Spread spread around the world and a lot of countries that that have adopted it have seen a significant reduction in crashes so what is uh what is West orangist uh Vision zero goal so West oranges Vision zero goal is to achieve zero deaths and serious injuries on related to Traffic Rel dat crashes by the year 2030 so if we're doing the right math we have about 5 and a half years um so what Vision zero uh adopts is uh the US Department of Transportation as part of their National roadway safety strategy adopted the safe system approach and the safe system approach um is basically a paradigm shift to uh achieving zero deaths and serious injuries on our roadways it differs from the conventional safety approach in that it acknowledges that humans will make mistakes but humans are vulnerable and the system should be designed with safety nets to avoid to uh to avoid any serious injuries or fatalities on the road um fatalities as we know throughout the country have been increasing at an alarming rate and so it means that what everyone's been doing right now is not fast enough and so we have to look at look at a different approach to the problem and instead of working in silos of the five E of engineering education we look at it from a safe system approach approach where it relies Less on education enforcement and more on how the street is is designed with safer speeds and and uh um safer vehicles um improve safety on our roadways also um helps us achieve uh two other important goals which is equity and climate change so I'm going to go to the next so the safe system approach has uh six elements as I mentioned earlier is that death and serious injuries are unacceptable humans will make mistakes but humans are vulnerable and safety is should be proactive and not reactive um the responsibility shared by all users of the roadway system and the transportation system should have redun uh safety nets so that we don't have any serious injuries or fatalities um the safe system approach has five elements that's safer roads safer speeds safer people safer vehicles and safer post and post crash care um so you know I just wanted to like give you an overview of so I think we've heard a lot of different terms so like we've heard of vision zero we've heard of safe the safe system approach and then we have heard of complete streets and how does this all fit together um this is this is a pres uh graphic prepared by WTC at Rodgers and so Vision zero is our goal and uh the safe system approach is the strategy to get that goal and complete streets is really the method how you design your streets to um make it safe for all uh users okay uh just to give you a brief overview of what was included as part of our overall project um we had four tasks the first task focused on project management which is really just setting up the task force and a regular communication with the township uh task two was focused on Outreach and how we involved different stakeholders within the community uh task three is system evaluation where we looked at Best Practices for vision zero we did a in-depth analysis of the crash data and then we finally developed recommendations as part of the vision zero action plan under task 4 um and with this I'm going to pass it over over to Colin who's going to talk about our overall community outreach efforts hi everyone I'm Colin nv5 um so I'm just gonna quickly take you through our community outreach efforts as well as our system evaluation basically just the process of the beginnings of the plan um our community outreach took two forms one was the involvement of our vision zero task force and as well as the vision zero subcommittee and also also public engagement out and Outreach activities um shown here are some of the various organizations that are part of the vision zero task force um we had three meetings with the task force as well as three meetings with our subcommittee uh and our public engagement overall involved five elements uh one was the vision zero website which uh members of the community could find the vision zero video series The Vision zero safety map the vision zero safety survey and additionally we had two public workshops over the spring and summer we created the vision zero pledge to help the community clearly understand how they could be involved in making the road Network safer what they could do what actions they could take um additionally on our vision zero website uh our project could be uh kept track of this could also be done using uh our vision zero Instagram and people could contact the project team directly using our email address our first Vision zero video which is posted on the township YouTube page uh served as an introduction to the project which conveyed the vision vision and the goals of vision zero and the project here in West Orange and the second video uh which hasn't been posted yet but it's coming soon will communicate our key findings our process and the pl recommendations for the township our vision zero safety map was an online tool where members of the community could go in and place points and lines where they identified uh places that were safe places that they felt were dangerous uh areas where they wanted improvements in the roadway Network and The Pedestrian bicycle Network and our vision zero safety survey um allowed us to learn people's travel behaviors their safety concerns ideas their own knowledge of vision zero in the safe system approach and their willingness to make safety tradeoffs um in order to improve the ladway network we ended up getting 454 responses which included some that we got online and others where we distributed a paper survey to older adults primarily we heard from uh people in the 45 to 64 age group but we we heard from people in all ages um our our respondents told us that active Transportation they felt so bicycling and pedestrian uh ways of getting around were less safe in West Orange than driving as a whole um we learned that many people were willing to drive slower and wait longer at traffic lights in order to make the system safer however they did feel that longer routes were not desirable most people also said that the primary barrier to um walking and biking was an incomplete sidewalk Network and speeding cars our two work our two public workshops were held in the spring and summer the first was held at Traffic Safety Fest in April and the second was at um the West Orange Street Fair in June um overall we gained 245 of our survey submissions and 71 of our pledge signatures at those events here are some of the people that we met at those events as well in evaluating the uh conditions in West Orange we gained many valuable insights into people's behaviors um we did data collection of both best practices and crash data and we also conducted a field visit we found that from 2017 to 2021 there were 45 people that were either killed or seriously injured in a car crash and despite being not the most common forms of crashes crashes with fixed objects or crashes with pedestrians had the most deaths or serious injuries we found that the leading causes of crashes were distracted driving in unsafe speed and in particular we found that DUI so driving drunk or driving while on drugs caused an additional large amount of fatal and severe crashes um we also found that the most common causes of the most common behaviors during crashes were turning either left or right um outside of driving straight of course um finally it is clear that seniors miners pedestrians and bicyclists were far more vulnerable to severe outcomes uh nearly all of deaths and serious injuries involved either children or or seniors and nearly uh and actually all fatals sorry no most fatal crashes were vehicles but but it was a near second for pedestrians as well so using this crash data we were able to create a high Injury Network of the entire town of West Orange and rash will take you through that M so uh using uh the the crash data we uh developed a high inury Network and what what what a high inury network is is that it looks at the looks at all of the roadways in West Orange and it R it uh gives a score to to all the different segments in West Orange based on the severity of a crash so fatal and severe injury crashes were given a score of three and injury crashes were given a score of one and a total of that score was assigned to the different segments throughout the entire um W Orange Township roadway system we also developed uh bicycle and pedestrian High inury Network separately and um and also use the exact the same methodology to identify High crash intersections in West Orange um and so that's looking at fatal severe and minor injury crashes uh what this map shows you is the overall High Injury Network um based on the analysis that we did and the the red dots are basically the high crashes intersections so we we so you know looking at crashes is one way uh to address the problem but in addition to that we also looked at some other uh criteria in identifying how to prioritize um the high inury Network so we looked at Equity uh for the equity analysis we used uh the njtpa equity tool which uh and looked at these nine factors for analysis so that's looking at where the minority households are low income Limited English proficiency disability um where the children youth and seniors are a foreign born households and households that do not have an access to a car and what what you know the the purpose of that was to look at um where some of these uh where a composite uh section of West Orange you know it would help us prioritize the high Network so we took the total of all of this data and we assigned a comp it score to those segments on the high Injury Network and that gave us so this is the initial High Injury Network just based on Crash data so that's Mount Pleasant Avenue Main Street Northfield Eagle Rock Pleasant Valley way and then when you um and this is the score just based on a combination of the uh equity and the high Injury Network so that's Main Street Mount Pleasant Avenue Mount uh Pleasant Valley Way Eagle Rock and norfield so this the the the top the the segments in Orange are the ones that are the top uh prioritized hin corridors but really that it doesn't mean that we don't address the others if you want to achieve Vision zero it's the entire network that we need to look at so but the top prioritized segments uh include Mo almost 50% of all fatal crashes 50% of all severe injury crashes uh almost 40% of all crashes and uh what we did notice is that 90% of these roadways our County Roads um so we we took all of that um the high inury Network and we dug a little bit deeper by conducting a field visit we looked at the crash data in a little more uh you know detail and we identified recommendations and actions that West Orin should undertake to achieve Vision zero and that as I mentioned earlier that adopted we adopted the safe system approach as recommended by the US Department of Transportation and um organiz ized all of the actions by these five categories which is safer roads safer speeds safer people safer vehicles and postc Crasher care and we're going to go into some of the just a brief overview of those um so these are the action plan tables that are included in the report and all of these elements like safer roads is really about designing the road so that it's safer for PE you know so to mitigate human mistakes um every action plan uh every every table included um a note about what the action is who the key partners are what is the overall time frame uh we did a high altitude cost for each of these and then what are the performance measures so the on an annual basis we recommend that the township track uh how all these actions are being implemented and then you know what sort of uh impact do these actions have on uh safety so we have you know some safer roads and then safer speeds promotes safer speeds in all uh on along all of the roadways through a combination of um Equitable roadway design and so really it's about setting appropriate speed limits for all of the roadways safer people is about encouraging safe walking and biking uh throughout and driving throughout the uh um Township so it's a lot of the education piece uh safer Vehicles is about expanding some of the Township's um Fleet to have the latest safety features um and to right siize some of the equip uh some of the vehicles and post crash care is to ensure that emergency responders have a quick and easy way to provide um uh Medical Care in if and when a crash occurs so um with that I'm going to pass on to Brian who's going to uh talk about the overall approach in terms of identifying um safety counter measures and um the engineering good evening my name is Brian stanas I'm a traffic engineer with nv5 uh so now we have a high Injury Network that we've identified the team got together and developed a program of improvements based on these fhwa proven safety counter measures which are improvements that have a proven track record of improving safety in terms of speed management roadway departure intersection operations and pedestrians and bicycles and I'm just going to run through a few of these few of the big ones that we think can have the most benefit uh Road diets and roadway reconfiguration we're really talking about roadways and intersections that probably have more pavement than we think they need a four-lane road could be many four-lane roads could be reduced to three lanes with a two-way Center left turn lane uh that red produces sideswipe crashes and you might find space for parking or bike Lanes uh we are envisioning that uh we want to look at that on Mount Pleasant Avenue at the 280 ramps and layered Avenue which Ron just said that was one of the highest crash locations the image is the intersection of Eagle Rock and Laurel uh if you're familiar with that intersection I'm sure most of you are uh the angle there can encourage some high speeds and we'd like to build out that Southeast corner to to not only reduce a pedestrian crosswalk but but uh reduce the speeds through the intersection roundabouts planners and Engineers love them because uh if you take a traffic signal intersection and replace it with a roundabout you can expect uh the data shows a 78% reduction in fatal and serious injury crashes that's really why we're here uh there will be minor fender benders but the design of roundabouts slows everybody down so if there's a crash it's going to be minor and everyone's going to walk away um we do have several uh locations in the town where we think a roundabout could be considered uh one of which is the intersection of Pleasant Valley and Northfield by the zoo uh that very skewed intersection could benefit with a roundabout leading pedestrian intervals this is really giving the pedestrians a head start by showing a walk signal a few seconds before the green comes up so if you've ever seen a driver kind of race a pedestrian to the crosswalk this takes that out of the equation the picture is of Pleasant Valley and Eagle Rock uh where a high school we saw an unbelievable number of high school students walking through that intersection midday uh and that and any other high pedestrian location we'd want to look at lead pedestrian intervals lead pedestrian intervals should basically always be accompanied by high visibility crosswalk improvements which include not only the pavement markings but the signage and possibly the flashing signals the uh we call rrfbs the rectangular rapid flashing beacons the little yellow strobe lights that really catch your eye really draw attention to the crosswalk and protected only left turn phasing that's what the engineers call it it's really a left turn you see a picture of Main Street at Washington that's a red left turn arrow you can only turn left on a Green Arrow uh and that takes away the the Judgment call the driver has to make uh again we mentioned Eagle Rock and Laurel that was a location with high uh left turn crashes driver on Eagle Rock looking that tra is that traffic coming fast enough do I have enough time to make that left turn across two lanes this is a a tech technically this is not a proven safety countermeasure in terms of the fhwa set but it definitely has a track record of improving safety the action plan includes this Matrix uh which obviously you can't read but uh you know review of the plan in detail shows the the corridors along the top uh the counter measures along the left hand side side and then the symbols in a grid pattern show the corridors where we propose toh to implement each Improvement some of them like the high uh High pedestrian visibility crosswalks basically we put that in everywhere everywhere it's Justified and then the the action plan provides a two-page summary of each Corridor I'm just going to run quickly through an example of one this is for Mount Pleasant Avenue the first slide review some of the crash history the crash types the contributing factors and some other existing conditions background of the intersection operation on the second page reviews down the left hand side the recommended safety counter measures that we would look for in this area with a couple aerial photos on the right high visibility crosswalks four lane to three lane road diet conversion that's what I mentioned at the 280 ramps uh sidewalk improvements uh speed management uh even something as little as the uh the traffic signal back plates that call additional attention to the signal heads when in an area when there's so much for a driver to look at um left turn lanes and and indeed roundabouts um and uh I will send it back to Robson to wrap it up okay I'm going to be I know we're already over time here so um basically all of that led to the development of the vision zero action plan um and a community toolkit so you know the vision zero action plan which you know we shared a link uh with everyone and it's soon should be posted online as well um includes the vision zero pledge the it talks about the US do roadway safety strategy um our prash statistics the safety Trends inv West Orange the summary that you just saw of community outreach but in a little more detail um information about the high Injury Network and our Equity analysis what the safe system approach is the strategy and actions and performance measures and the key next steps it also has an appendix that includes um some some additional funding sources some design guidance and then also The Proven safety counter measures um that fhwa has already looked into helping reduce scates um we also developed a a community toolkit which is here um it's it's if you want to just if you want to pass these sure um so the the the community toolkit is really to provide information and resources to the community to share with their friends and Neighbors about what Vision zero is what is the safe system approach what are proven safety counter measures what are we talking about um and then you know the crash sta how does that all relate to West orangee so just a brief overview of the crash data and then the high Injury Network that we presented um so that's everything that's in the plan but really why we are here in this room is about the next steps you know that document is done but it really it was set up to help the township go after um implementation so some of the key next steps that are also outlined in the plan are we need a vision zero task force that can take ownership of this plan otherwise it's going to be just a document that on sit on a shelf and we're not going to achieve Vision zero which is our goal West Township is one of very few that has taken the stand to to achieve Vision zero um and also funding applications so the safe streets and roads for all Grant is open now it literally just opened last week um share the community toolkit with everybody it should be posted online so I just wanted to do a quick overview so we have $1.2 billion available and yes that includes uh planning and demonstration grants five 650 million for uh planning and demonstration grants and $580 million for implementation grants Brands and that's really what West Orange is set up to do we given you know all of we everything that's in the uh action plan um also the SX County that has been a partner throughout the development of this plan is developing its own Vision zero action plan through the safe streets and roads for all Grant um so you know we encourage that when the task force is set up you become an a part of that committee that's developing the seex county and as we've seen that invest a lot of the roadways are County Roads the high Injury Network um some of the uh activities that are eligible through the ss4a grant include you know you can focus on some of the top corridors that have that already in the appendix they're identified we've identified recommendations so you have County and Municipal some Municipal roadways that the township can immediately work on but also in partnership with the county so the grant allows you to work with a road owner that's not the township itself so you just have to have an agreement with them or you could work towards a system systemwide application of some measures that would be a more proactive approach and so that's looking at lowcost safety treatments speed management develop developing a bicycle Network safe routes to school uh pedestrian safety enhancements and then also education is a big piece of um the safe system approach as well so that's something yeah so that's that's that's all I have um if you have any questions so the the the goal is that uh you know we need uh uh support from the council uh we need to post the plan online we need to post uh the we have a we've developed a second video that talks about all of this in a more uh you know uh succinct way so that you can know what Vision zero is so that needs to be posted on the Township's website um and then also the community toolkit the plan so that the community can be aware of uh what's been recommended thank you questions thank you well that was very informative um and and exciting I you know we you are approaching us at a time uh where we've had all kinds of conversations about um financing and different things in town but uh you've also approached it at a time when we've seen uh even I think today or yesterday we had an email about an accident uh in town um on one of our more difficult streets so um thank you to the bot lanis and pedestrian safety and to all of you for your presentation I wish we had time for questions uh but I don't think we do uh unfortunately um so we're going to ask uh director fanino to come um with his presentation on the dog park thank you director God bless youc the oh we keeping a Cofe that's my thank you very much good job that's very comprehensive thank you thank you council president good evening everyone on behalf of Mayor McCartney and the administration I'm pleased to introduce um our first dog park here in the township of West Orange uh for those who don't know me my name is Michael fono the director of the health department here in West Orange so the dog park is going to be located adjacent to the new uh Stonehill Apartments um a complex of 423 apartments on Executive Drive behind shop right across from our new library um there's going to be 56 dedicated parking spots in including two handicap and four EV spots so there's plenty of parking the dog park will feature a small dog park which will be limited to dogs weighing 25 pounds or lighter and a large dog park which is open to to dogs of all sizes uh the the dog park uh in total is uh 2 acres and contains state-of-the-art PE gravel which is a real uh fine smooth gravel um easy on the the Paw of the the dogs and it will also contain an underground irrigation system uh which will help keep the surfaces inside the parks clean and sanitary this was a recommendation of um not only our town veterinarian but other veterinarians that we've spoke to in the planning process so this is a rendering of the the the park itself um on the left hand side you is the uh small dog park and to the right you don't see the whole thing but it continues um all the way down um that's the large dog park and they're both uh separated by fencing and fully enclosed by fencing so that there's no dogs that that that can escape so before you tonight for your consideration we have a a proposed amendment to the township West Orange ordinance chapter 10 um adding a section number 16 for the regulation of Township dog parks um so this would contain the dog park rules and regulations the purp of this ordinance is to ensure the health and safety of those who use any dog park located in the township of West Orange and to prescribe a set of rules and regulations to be followed the standards and procedures established by this section are intended to promote safe use of dog parks loaded located within the township uh some background uh to this ordinance we did a comprehensive review of other local dog park facilities which helped us um develop our ordinance the hours of operation of the dog park will be from 6 o'clock in the morning to 10 o'clock at night daily which is consistent with the hours of all of our other parks in town the dog park will contain an emergency code blue system which is essentially a call box that you see on like college campuses uh that will directly connect to the West police dispatch desk in the event of an emergency somebody can utilize that system so the requirements to use the dog park um all dogs must have a valid dog license female dogs must be spayed and male dogs must be neutered to enter the park all dogs must have a current rabies distemper and parvo vaccination all dogs must have a current West Orange dog park pass which which is part of the proposed ordinance that we're looking to to pass here um and users will be required to follow all posted rules and regulations to ensure we have a safe environment for all dogs and and people in the park so a little bit about the dog park path um anyone interested in in getting a dog park pass would apply at the West Orange Health Department office there will be a $10 per dog annual fee for West Orange residents and a 20 $20 per dog annual fee for non-residents who are interested in purchasing a dog park pass all dogs must have again a a current West Orange dog park pass in order to enter the dog park and utilize it dog park passes must be renewed annually and expire on December 31st of each year the fees that we collect for the dog park pass will be used to help fund the equipment for the dog parks and help offset the upkeep and maintenance costs including supplying pet waste disposal bags and pet waste disposal stations on the site so we're we're excited um to announce that uh we have created a committee a grand opening committee um to host a grand opening on Sunday May 5th at 4 o'clock until 6 :00 p.m. with a rain date of Sunday May 19th um pre-registration is required and you can register online following this link or QR code this is a flyer that's going to be published on our website social media and and mailed out to all of our uh currently licensed uh dog owners aming so we have we have a real fun day plan for the grand opening including uh activities such as food trucks a dog costume contest um various pet vendors a dog treat bar dog portraits and much more to come are we gonna have beer ship mat so we're in the process of looking for sponsors we're we're reaching out to veterinarian pet stores pet groomers and community members um anyone who would like to make a contribution it will help enhance the equipment and amenities available at the dog parks uh ensuring that they meet our highest standards and quality and safety if uh anyone's interested in sponsoring uh the event again you can go to this URL west.org dog park sponsor or the QR code we'll bring you there as well to the to an online form to be filled out again this will also be published on um our website social media and we'll be sending um the information out to our licensed veterinarians and pet stores in and groomers in town with that if there's any questions I'll be happy to uh entertain them now great job thank you director fonzo again thank you to uh the vision zero presenters um because it's 7:21 I'm not going to ask for questions uh but we all have your email and phone number so I'm sure we will um reach out as needed uh Mr Fagan or is it is it possible to have his info or can how do we how do how does the public reach you or find your info is it on the west orange.org yeah so just go to uh West orange.org and type in director Michael fonzo and he will come up you can email or phone call with your questions all right we've got to get into our meeting you ready Madam clerk yes sir this is to inform the general public that this meeting is being held in compliance with Section Five of the open public meetings act chapter 231 Public Law 1975 the annual notice was emailed to The Star Ledger and filed in the township clerk's office on November 21st 2023 and published in the West Orange Chronicle on November 30th 2023 councilwoman gber Michael present councilwoman Scarpa present councilwoman Williams present council president Rutherford here mayor McCartney will everyone please rise for the Pledge of Allegiance stes of America and to the for stands Nation God indivisible withy and the council is now in their public meeting thank you thank you Madame clerk um we're going to begin with public comment before we do just want to um talk a little bit about what happened at our last council meeting uh as everyone by now is aware we had a very difficult council meeting two weeks ago um to say uh each of us were shocked and disappointed is to put it mildly um I have we're going to have a robust conversation about how we're going to move forward at the end um of our meeting tonight in new business uh we have suspended public comment from the zoom audience uh so there will not be public comment from anyone that is not in person um if you choose to uh address the council tonight please uh give us your name and your address uh for the record uh if you don't want to give your address because you are concerned for your own safety uh feel free to email uh your comments in directly to any of the council members uh or to the entire Council as a whole um you can email us directly at our personal email addresses or you can send it to all five of us as well as members of the administration at Council West orange.org um what I hope we will all agree on is that regardless of what the issue is we are all neighbors we all live in the same town our children go to school together we frequent the same restaurants um and prior to some of the more recent difficulties we've had and it didn't just start last fall uh but this has been building for some time prior to that we found ways to disagree without being disagreeable so as we approach the microphone tonight for our public comment I want to encourage each of us to remember that when we leave this place this chamber we are still neighbors we still have to work work together uh our children go to school together uh we play together in this town um and in other spaces and there has to be at least a baseline level of respect we have for each other even when we are an opposite sides of an issue uh so um we welcome the comment uh but please be respectful um and if you cannot be respectful there will be Zero Tolerance uh I am going to error on the side of caution if I sense that public comment is going in the wrong direction even if it has not quite gotten there yet I am going to use the discretion that is allowed to me and interpreting what good decorum means and I'm going to stop it um and I will ask the police officer to escort you out uh we cannot continue on the pathway that we are on and so hopefully last council meeting served as a wakeup call and now we can press the reset button um and begin to conduct our business a little bit more kindly with that going to ask Mr Fagan uh and Mr pesi uh to give their um hold on second before you do Mr Fagan our councilman gber M before we start and I know Madame clerky sent us an email um I would like to make a motion to uh discuss to have public comment for uh business first because last time we didn't get to start the business until after midnight and that's not fair for members of the administration um or anyone really who then has to wake up the next day and come into work and serve this community after just a couple of hours of sleep so um I am making a motion that we uh have public comment for agendum items only and then have regular public comment afterwards second and is this for just this evening or going forward forever I I guess going um just after what happened last time because again are youy motion okay I modifying my motion to can have a time limit moving forward and we'll go from there and if you want to change it later on in the future then we can I'll take sorry I'll take a roll call vote um councilwoman gber Michael Yes councilwoman yes councilwoman Williams council president wford yes so um we will be opening public comment now for items on the agenda only if you have public comment for uh something that is not on the agenda um there will be a second public comment period at the end of the meeting where you can discuss whatever is on your heart Mr Fagan um I I wanted on one second Mr Fagan wanted to address on the time element with public comment being reduced um or actually split up and divided as a body we had discussed reducing public comment to four minutes um as a medium some of us were interested in reducing it to three minutes and some of us want it to remain the same and as a compromise we discussed four minutes um I just wanted before we go into a five minute open public comment if we can have for consideration perhaps moving it to the four minutes two minutes for agenda items only or for or perhaps and this is open for discussion um certainly but my recommendation would be you speak for four minutes if you want to speak on an agenda item and you want to speak on something else you be given four minutes total not four minutes for one agenda item and then four minutes to come back at a second bite of the Apple how do I keep track of that two minutes I mean you have to ask the are you speaking on agenda items only they have to I mean they have to be able to perhaps so councilwoman I do appreciate the um uh creative uh way of addressing public comment and I do think we have to address um the amount of time allotted between two separate public comment periods what I hope we can do just for now is get through our meeting and then discuss all of those changes at the end when we get to new business there are several changes that need to be discussed and that is uh one of them so can we wait until we get to to new business to discuss that please so that means that tonight everybody will have 10 minutes for public comment so tonight people are going to have five minutes for public comment right now this is for agenda items only uh My Hope and my guess and my expectation is that most of those that have public comment on agenda items are going to be done uh when their agenda item is is done and they probably won't come back at the end of the meeting but that is one of the challenges that we have if we're going to if we're going to deal with all of the public comment issues and changes we can do that upfront I think that delays the meeting and I think that delays to when we actually get to the business so I think we can do it one time for going forward um if we if we just get through our agenda and get to new business and then deal with all of those changes at the same time thank you I just to make it like to make it clear that I am in no way in favor of stifling the voices of the public there are many many issues that are very complex that we have to deal with that the public does not understand and often times it takes some time to detail those things so someone can make their comment and have the and they need the full five minutes what I do think we should do is urge the public to be as concise and not to be redundant and give them a shot to do the right thing thank you I agree with councilwoman Scara thank you councilwoman uh Scara thank you all my colleagues um and we'll we'll have full debate when we deal with all the changes at the end of the meeting uh Mr Fagan thank you council president uh this evening um I'd like to start uh with our continuation of Black History Month uh for uh the month of February and uh once again I want to thank Michael Roach for uh creating these slides for us uh we're honoring William gues Jr who was the first graduate from West Orange Mountain High School I think most residents forget that there actually were two high schools in town at one time and although uh Mr gues came from East Orange He was a graduate of the class of 1965 and of course rounding out our educational theme we give um we honor Hayden Moore who was the first African-American superintendent of our West Orange public schools and uh uh last week uh I did mention Lawrence quallo who was the earliest known black student athlete at West Orange High School dating to 1926 and yesterday uh I appeared on New Jersey uh Morning Show to uh tell his story uh and it's a shame that it's taken over a century for him to come out but uh we certainly pay him uh pay him credit and uh once again thank you Michael Roach for creating these uh these beautiful uh Graphics uh of course we have an annual tradition coming up March 10th uh our annual St Patrick's Day uh parade 71st anniversary of the parade uh time sure does March on no pun intended um on February 24th at the Richard Cody arena there was a charity hockey game and of course uh no West Orange event would be complete without lyette Shear singing the National Anthem which uh she did and uh she really did a great job uh the the the charity hockey game is between a combined team of West Orange fire and police Personnel uh against the New Jersey Warriors who are is a hockey team of disabled vets and uh prior to the game um uh Carolyn w and Nick alago representing the West AR Township employees union and Anthony baso officer Anthony bcho and Frank nor being not pictured what representing the West St fire department donated uh both uh unions donated $500 in the memory of Joe Pelos uh prior to the hockey game uh I think you're going to see uh Mr Cunningham Daniel Cunningham I think he's going to speak during public comment tonight but uh we put him up on the East sign uh and uh please don't Litter uh he works very diligently keeping our Main Street clean uh we also have uh tree trimming ongoing operations in West St now I've been trying to post daily or uh as the information becomes available to specific streets and dates but um uh the West Orange public should be aware that there is ongoing operations and uh just be aware and stay alert uh there's a message that I keep bringing up here about the 900 PM routine uh you know unfortunately we have incidences where uh cars are being broken into and uh um you know don't don't make it easy for them so I urge everyone to take valuables lock your car and leave an outside light on and uh you know if you see something say something call the West Orange Police Department uh at 325 4000 and certainly for emergencies or report a crime in progress you can dial uh 911 um this past week we've had a few individuals I don't believe from West Orange but from surrounding communities who were lost and um I want to remind everyone our West Orange residents that our West Orange Police Department has the Tak me home program where you can register uh individuals and helps police locate uh lost family members uh also want to mention that the uh senior transportation to the West Orange Library 10 R Circle there's a phone number here it's also on our website uh if you need a ride to the uh Library um also we have a birthday coming up 130th birthday for our West Orange fire department it will be on March 6 2024 130 years my does time fly um uh I will display this slide during the course of the meeting but you can contact all Township council members via email uh if you have any questions questions or concerns uh council president that concludes my uh presentation thank you Mr Fagan um our public information I'm sorry our is it public information off from the county I've been called many things oh Mr P I'm sorry Mr py is uh not coming on the call tonight I spoke to him this afternoon okay thank you thank you thank you Mr Fagan so at this time we will open public comment uh for those that are in council chambers if you would like to have public comment we're going to go I'm not going to call on people just make yourself uh make your way to the microphone if you'd like to line up please feel free uh provide enough space for those that are nearby uh don't wait until the microphone is empty to come up uh please do form a q yes and and as a reminder this is on a agenda items only uh and please state your name and your address for the record hi good evening I hope this is agenda item I'm Nicole Bell from 30 wood Underwood drive and I actually had a question about the presentation before this is that agenda item yes okay I'm just wondering and maybe I missed previous meetings if most of the high Injury Network is n is um 90% County roads are they going to chip in and help with some of this these changes in development that's my question thanks Nicole excuse me what is the address 31 Underwood drive thank you council president yes sir I'm sorry for the interruption I have a problem with the camera at the moment I'm trying to get to wide view uh so the public does not see the wide view right now and uh just to be advis and I'm working on it so that means that they can't see the public commentary they they can hear the audio at the moment and the camera is frozen and I'm trying to fix it thank you sir Joe can you make sure that the microphone is on it is on okay thank you hello members of the council council president uh uh I'm Paul tractenberg I live at 96 Sullivan Drive um just want to say two preliminary things I will address an agenda item namely the revised tree ordinance in a moment but uh for context I want to say that I have been in the interest of full disclosure one of the leaders since the year 2000 in the fight against the development of the 120 and a half acre parcel uh owned by West Essex Highlands Inc and the fight goes on despite efforts to suggest there is no fight it's a done deal uh we have many hundreds of residents who think that's not the case and you'll hear from them um incidentally there's an interesting intersection uh with the vision zero project I had not known about this but the single most dangerous intersection according to their presentation is the intersection of Eagle Rock and Laurel which happens to be the nearest intersection to where the additional thousands of cars should the development take place is going to spill out so you think it's dangerous now imagine thousand more cars every day uh I do want to just say to because it will be relevant to something I hope I have the chance to say at the end of my remarks uh I'm a professor of law Meritus from record's law school I taught there almost 50 years and retired eight years ago uh I've spent the last 50 plus years being a uh an advocate for students mostly students who are low income and students of color fighting for educational Equity uh and I think that's relevant to a lot of what I do and say but I want to make a couple of brief comments about the Revis tree ordinance which is on the agenda tonight I think on the whole it's a strong ordinance but I have three comments in kind of escalating uh uh importance to make uh one it needs to be cleaned up in ways involving typographical errors and format and grammatical problems and I will undertake to submit to the council within a few days uh a cleaned up version and one that I would recommend be passed in the form that I uh transmitted uh the second um issue that I think needs to be dealt with is I think the ordinance needs to distinguish more clearly and consistently between individual property owners and Developers there is an effort to do that but it's kind of mixed in to the middle of some Provisions I think it needs to be clarified and finally and I think most importantly um uh I think it's um uh on balance the tree replacement fund uh needs to be eliminated uh because in my view it has too great a potential to be misused to the detriment of the ordinance's Paramount policies M and I see there that there are three Paramount policies at work in the ordinance and I think the the findings and introductory section uh lay out very effectively uh both a challenge that we confront and a way to overcome it but the three policies I think are to minimize the number of trees removed everywhere in town but especially in major subdivision developments where we're not talking about one or two trees um there are something in over 27,000 trees on that 12 and a half acre parcel The Proposal made around 2005 which the planning board rejected in 2006 proposed to remove 7,625 of those trees uh the current proposal not yet before the planning board hopefully in my view it will never get there uh proposes to remove 6,360 trees uh so if one is concerned about the tree canopy and its dwindling nature the effects of removing trees uh that's a that's a big issue in my view for the township not just those immediately adjacent to this property um the uh uh second point is that to the extent that development does requ require the removal of some trees and I think the ordinance uh puts it at a maximum of 30% of the trees uh they should be replanted or replaced on the same site at the expense of the developer to the degree time is up excuse me okay does that mean I'm muzzled now this is why we need the five minutes that was five minutes I know and he wasn't even finished with substantive remarks council president our camera feed has been restored the bad news however it's just stuck in one position but it's stuck in the right position okay thank you uh Mr tractenberg please um email the rest of your uh commentary to us um and if you or or or yes uh hand off the rest of your comments to someone else um please hi good evening council president council members um my name is Joyce Ruden Woodland Avenue you um I'm here on behalf of R Green West Orange and I just want to um follow up on Professor tractenberg message nobody can say it better than Professor tractenberg um we would like to urge you not to pass a tree fund uh in the tree ordinance which favors the developers number two we would like to urge you to vote against these quote unquote quick casual restaurants which are just another word for fast food we don't need more fast food restaurants in West Orange and we don't need this to proliferate all over so this is really a red herring um for developers and I hope that you will vote no on both of those items thank you so much thank you Rachel um how drive just to clarify I think Mrs Ruden meant um drive-thru right drive-thru not fast food just to clarify thank you uh please come on up as you are you don't have to wait Mrs melli you can just come right on up good evening okay can you hear me it's I can't get the mic to stick ah there we go okay good evening Claire sylvestri 20 Grand View Avenue I'm commenting on two agenda items this evening first the tree ordinance it's back and while it has many positives it continues to include the tree replacement fund which lets off the hook developers who look to clearcut or eliminate huge amounts of trees from our property significantly negatively impacting the town's tree canopy environment and our daily life please do not move forward with this legislation until the loophole is closed additionally I'd like to talk more about the rationale for proposed ordinance 2842 d24 revising rules of the council limiting public comment what's being introduced tonight may seem rather innocuous another of those ordinances so prevalent last year that revises the way the council can change portions of the municipal code via the one-step one council meeting resolution process rather than the two-step two council meeting ordinance process tonight's legislation does not specify how the council intends to revise the rules limiting public comment but rather proposes to make it easier for the council to change the rules with much time for the public to provide input for the Public's benefit to change an ordinance the legislation must be introduced and approved at one council meeting then publicized by the Township Clerk and brought up again at a second council meeting and at that meeting There's an opportunity for the public to voice their questions and concerns prior to the council's discussion and final vote this ensures citizens have adequate notice and opportunity to express their opinions on important legislation like how their Council meetings are run conversely the resolution process most often often used for Council approval of Municipal contracts does not allow nearly as much time for the public to gain information and speak out about legislation we usually only learn about resolutions on the agenda the Friday before Tuesday meeting when the agenda is posted to the town website and resolutions are approved by a one meeting vote the five minute public comments has been challenged by some council members twice in the past three years but ultimately legislation to change the ordinance was tabled both times after significant public push back tonight's legislation does not delineate specific changes to the council rules but rather seeks to make it faster and easier for the council to make such changes of course to make the change of the municipal code to move from a one meeting resolution process to the two meeting uh uh from the two meeting to the one meeting resolution process actually requires two meetings to accomplish so I'm kind of confused if you are in a in a hurry to reduce public comment to four minutes as has been discussed previously um you could just propose the ordinance tonight and then have a final vote in two weeks so I'm curious as to why you are making this ordinance doing this that way I remind the council as I have several times in the past three years that up until recently the vast majority of speakers have not used the full five minutes but with the huge agendas in recent years those of us who speak on multiple resolutions need adequate time to comment and ask questions about legislation that has significant impact on our Township citizens and financial situations it is imperative the council leave public comment at five minutes the current municipal code on public comment time limits and deor is very simple and clear um to just um read from the uh the municipal codus to things that the council president was mentioning this evening regards public comment each member of the public wishing to speak shall do so through the council president after stating their name and address for the record and shall be limited to five minutes that's in chapter 3 section 8B of our Municipal Code um 3-1 15.2 on time limits each person addressing the Council pursuant to this subsection shall be required to limit his or her remarks to five minutes and shall at no time engage in any personally offensive or abusive remarks the chair shall call any speaker to order who violates any provision of this rule so I suggest that the council president follow our ordinances and then there'd be no need for the council to limit citizens right to participate in their municipalities government and that perhaps Also may would include if we followed the ordinances allowing public comment via Zoom um as to uh speak to our elected officials thank you next anyone please yep soon as the mic's open I realized I walked in late I'm going to take advantage of no way house walk here my name is Philip lnof I proudly live at 11 Lindon Avenue here in town since 1977 I have a few items I'd like to try to get in within my limited time first of all if I if I repeat what somebody else said I apologize I drove down here during Mr Fagan's discussion right before public comment because I felt it was important to speak first as to the Restriction of public comment to was you know to the way we're handling it now it's unfortunate what happened at the last meeting as a member of a Jewish Community when covid started my synagogue got Zoom bombed as well and we put restrictions in to make it safer to do and I believe that we have the technology in this town to do similar things as a last resort you have this gentleman over here who has the power of hitting a switch to shut somebody off if they go out of the line and what happened specifically with you Mr President I think you said terrible terrible common as to what goes on however I would also suggest that the public comment be restricted at this point and going forward to West Orange residence only mayor and all of you were elected officials by us the township members of West Orange to have people calling in and speaking and taking your time an our time to talk to put their own emphasis of things that are happening outside you know from outside the town I think it's disrespectful it's one of the reasons why the meetings go into the we hours of the morning and I think we have the right without trying to be uh prejudicial you know and restrictive on it to to say that you can only speak if you're a member of this town second item ends on the agenda West Orange clausa during the planning board meetings which went on for months and administered by the chair of the planning board Dr Robert bof discussions were brought up continually about the drive-through restaurants the developer through his attorney kept saying they understand that the township ordinance does not permit drive-thru restaurants and that's not part of what they're requesting for you at the Town Council to now consider changing the ordinance to permit this I think is a tragedy I think it it flies in the face of reason and everything that was decided on at the time that the planning committee made its decision and I just think it's wrong and I think you need to take that under advisement as you consider this last item trees I don't know how many of you see the various articles that come out in the Press there is a longtime resident by the name of John Lazarus who writes used to be a copy editor for the starl he wrote last week a huge piece in the New Jersey Jewish news not to turn into religion but this is a newspaper a qualified newspaper and he spoke about the damage to the tree canopy in this town he spoke about the development that is putting people at risk to include behind the shop ride a huge huge apartment complex with only one Avenue of entrance and God forbid something happens that people need to get out of there what's going to happen to them so I urge you as you consider the changes to this tree ordinance that you wanted to put through you take the time to to read that article and and dwell on it and think about what this gentleman is saying because I think he makes some very good points I thank you for your time thank you sir uh Doug Adams 9 West over Terrace um speaking to the um um the item on rules of counil and order of business uh the first thing I want to do is I want to say I'm really sorry for what y'all had to go through last meeting council president I don't care what on God's green earth if you ever do no one should ever call you that ever not in America not in any way in any form or any fashion and we have to pull the cameras off the wall we need to pull the cameras Off the Wall councilwoman Williams councilwoman gabri Michael my deepest and sincere apologies for you having to pay that price to Simply serve in the way you feel like you should we the residents of West Orange will vote on how we feel about whatever job you do but you're ours and nobody gets to come to West Orange call in West Orange and conduct themselves in a way that is absolutely contrary to West Orange councilwoman Scarpa I'm sorry that you had to experience those things I'm sorry to the rest of the residents in West Orange sometimes we have some difficult conversations but that is not who we are and we shouldn't have to pay that price there is work that needs to be done on how we conduct meetings there was a time in West Orange when there were difficult subjects that I remember going to community centers and going to churches and different places for Town Hall meetings to allow residents to voice their opinion it is a very undue price for you have to stay in here till 2 o'clock in the morning so people can share their passionate opinions about things when conversations emails and other forms of communication could happen because the reality is the last time I check you guys are basically doing this for tip money and the employees that are here as we said they're here all night then they got to get up in the morning and if something goes wrong in west or they been here for 27 years if something goes wrong in West Orange if one of these guys or one of the employees in town if they do something that somebody doesn't get they don't like they get fried from top to bottom but yet they were here all night they've been serving all the time and so yeah we got a lot of opinions there's a lot of deep stuff to talk about and there's some brilliant people and I I I I agreed with Claire forgive me um for using your first name we have to figure out a way to be able to have these conversations and allow the town and the residents to share their thoughts but like you said council president the things that led up to Tuesday or to that last meeting those are the things that this item should be addressing how do we restore honor to the deas how do we honor the chairs how do we honor each other and how do we honor our residents so I just want to tell you you know just as a person who grew up in the 60s conversations that are difficult will escalate to conversations that are disrespectful and they will escalate to actions that are destructive and it's to us as a community but particularly to you all as our leaders to have the freedom and know that you have our support to identify best practices and how we conduct these meetings because what happened last time should never happen it should never happen and I don't care what I disagree with or agree with it should never happen happen and anybody who doesn't realize how destructive those comments were to all of our communities all of our residents then they probably don't really understand what West Orange is all about thank you uh thank you uh Pastor Adams it's only this is only for agenda items Miss mlli I didn't hear that what go ahead ears are old and they don't hear Too Well what' you say about me I didn't say anything about you miss mlli R melli Ralph Road it's been a long time since I've been up here uh I'm disappointed in The Pedestrian safety portion because they didn't touch on the subject of safety for senior citizens especially seniors who live in the facilities the um senior facilities like Rena dnan and whatever um as I had said here before I serve on the County Board and people in the urban areas have a lot more in place for safety for their C seniors than I think we have in West Orange like delay green Islands when the streets are real wide so they can stop between the two sides of the street uh the I don't think we have it for people who are um sight repaired have radios on the poles at Crossing intersections Etc I don't know if we have any of that but my point is I think it's a critical thing and especially around the senior buildings there's a lot of Carnage on the roads around senior buildings because they tend to want under in many cases uh controlling the traffic has been a difficult thing I mean they have police out there it still doesn't stop them from uh racing and traveling at high speeds so I would like to know if they're considering any initiatives that will be primarily for the safety of seniors and senior facilities excuse me uh just one second can we please uh it's difficult to hear up front thank you continue I didn't hear you what' you say it's difficult for us to hear up front uh there's talking in the back I'm talking no you're fine you're fine okay yes you're great you're better than okay it's too late I'm finished should have said it before but if you want me to tell you a story or something you know going back with what's happening in this town and in this world where people aren't caring about people now I was born on the tail end of the Great Depression and if anybody doesn't know what that is Google it and you'll find out what it means I didn't know that we were in a great depression and we're very fortunate my father always worked we had food on the table uh it bothers me now that we don't have that kind of caring in a community in our community I'd like to see more of it and with what I hear it's not only here at these Council meetings it's like world why people are just hurtful they're not caring about their neighbors or their friends or people that don't even know who need help caring and compassion is disappearing and I don't want to see it I hate to see it it bothers me that it's happening in West Orange that's all I have to say thank you thank thank you Miss melli anyone else in council chambers for a public comment anyone else in okay hello I'm the town Forester as you guys know um I'm just here to speak out the tree orance um and the reason why I need you we are losing canopy C coverage drastically year after year our current Town ordinance there is no stopping the tree removal whether it's live healthy trees there's no stopping that's the reason why we need to I need your help to strengthen the tree ordinance so it can slow the process down we need a planting compon component to this so we can replace our valuable tree Cy it's causing flooding down here in the valley it's coming off the mountain because there's less trees a tree can suck up to 200 gallons of water a day out of the ground just think of that the residents take down about 800 trees per year the township 100 150 and we have 10,000 trees to take care of distri trees we're currently getting a tree inventory so we'll know the health of the trees as we know our tree health is starting to turn the trees are starting to get old older trees have more problems therefore more maintenance is needed so we need this fund the tree fund if we can't plant the trees on the on the site that they're removed we have to be able to choose in the local area of the tree for we have to be able to plant trees trees are avable resource for us it makes our town beautiful without them it's not as beautiful it also helps with wild love heat Islands a lot of other things this is why we need it I'm done thank you thank you Mr Kip Mr brick Mike brick 19 Colony Drive West West Orange chairman of the environmental commission uh Walter is also a chair um member a town member of our commission and we've worked for two years on this tree ordinance um we've gone through many many additions um mayor M mayor McCartney has vetoed a previous edition of the ordinance some of our towns people Joyce in particular has worked closely with Stephen with her recommendations from our Green West Orange some of the recommendations are very positive some of the recommendations are fuzzy some of the recommendations we think are wrong that doesn't make her the villain it just makes us want to fine-tune it even better because as Walter had said the the assets of the trees in West Orange are critical to the health of West Orange both financial and humanitarian and and medically so there's issues here one of the things I'm recommending is Susan has sat in on many meetings missed a few not your fault and it would be best if we could all meet and discuss the hairy details that we're trying to get over one of the details is um you got a tree permit and you apply for it and you get it and you have to notify um your neighbors um one of the definitions that Joyce wants is within 200 or 250 feet the mayor wants it contiguous properties You could argue both ways and the det dets are strong arguments both ways and I have an opinion and you guys have to have an opinion to pass this ordinance because the state now says according to Stephen that it has to be passed in May because the state mandates it so we've used the state ordinance as a framework for our ordinance and I don't want to go into the hairy details as I mentioned because it's not to be done in a public form like this not that it couldn't be done but it takes time and effort and it takes listening and it can't be done in five minutes there might be a couple of 45 minute to an hour sessions for us to think about it come back and make a final decision so please listen to me carefully because we need to get this done the trees are not the trees are going by the wayside as Walter had said they're cutting them down and we don't have an ordinance in place to protect them and we're close so think about it please and let's all get together put our heads together and get over these obstacles thank you very much thank you anyone else for public comment okay seeing none um we are going to close public comment look at that and after a we're doing great I want to thank everyone for uh that participated in public comment I want to give my colleagues an opportunity to respond um we're going to go uh in let let before we do that I just want to uh uh let everyone know the reason why councilwoman castelino is not here tonight uh she is uh very sick uh otherwise she would be here she is so sick that uh is not advisable for her to even join us on Zoom um you know her her track record is to be present at pretty much everything uh so you know it has to be pretty bad for her not to be here um so uh that said uh councilwoman Deborah Michael good evening everyone thank you all for joining us either in person or on Zoom I want to thank everyone uh for coming up and and uh giving their commentary regarding the agenda items um I want to start off with h Pastor Doug Adams thank you so much Pastor for uh your words I agree with you wholeheartedly and um it's disturbing to me that Council uh president Rutherford is being blamed for what happened when it is not his fault um and some people even trying to blame me and it's not our fault for what happened um and I I won't let you guys blame us and for those of you that are attacking Bill excuse me council president Rutherford you're part of the problem you're part of the hate and the discrimination and it's not right to in that moment what we went through to attack him and blame him for what happened it's unconscionable and is in my opinion inappropriate and unethical so that's why I stand on that thank you you're you're welcome and for people saying that we did not respond to what happened it's inaccurate you know unfortunately the video was not shown for what happened which I disagree with I think that the administration should have posted it there's ways to censor what happened because then you would have heard every single one of us talking about what happened uh our you know voicing our disappointment and again I was just very disappointed by some of the emails we received and the comments that I've been hearing okay so now back to business um the tree ordinance for the record um the reason why the majority of this Council in the last meeting voted to put on the tree ordinance because that was the Compromise that members from our Green West Orange wanted we at first I'll say I don't support the tree fund but we are willing to make a compromise in which council president Rutherford will discuss later because we can't infringe on residents rights if someone has a small backyard space and and they want to build whether it's a pool or a patio who are we with the taxes that they pay tell them that they have to place a tree but there's no space for a tree that's not fair so this isn't easy I mean Mr jenero has worked hard on this with Joyce Ruden and others so the compromise may I may I say it the compromise is going to be to allow residents with one acre or less that way we're protecting from developers who want to pay into a fund in order not to plant trees um but I think that's a fair compromise um and you guys will hear from the rest of my colleagues um there's something else I want to mention the agenda is set mostly by the administration so when you see ordinance on here it's not us who put it on we didn't put on any of the ordinances except for the tree ordinance all those other ordinances came from the administration um so I don't support those ordinances at all I don't support the quick casual restaurant ordinance for those of you who have been in most of these meetings have heard majority of the council um strongly strongly state that they're that we're against it and we've given our reasons why um regarding the municipal changing um I'm sorry give me one moment regarding the other ordinance um amending the uh Township rules I'm also against that um and regarding the dog park while I'm for for a dog park I don't think we should be charging residents We already pay high taxes we already have to pay all these other fees I don't think we should be charging for a license or having a pass to use uh our facilities we don't do it for playgrounds we don't do it for municipal Parks the county doesn't do it for their dog parks so to me I don't see why we would do it with ours I heard the presentation and while I'm excited for the dog park I don't think we should be charging uh residents and that that's the Fe back I also received from other residents um and let's see and I just want to mention regarding the revised tree ordinance many residents have reached out about the tree fund and I've spoken to a few um about the compromise in which they also agreed they were we okay with that so um that concludes my public comment thank you council president thank you councilwoman uh councilman uh Scottland okay great thank you um I'll kind of take them in order um I first want to thank Paul uh tractenberg for coming out I completely agree with you the tree replacement fund is problematic I think the solution that we have though may be able to mitigate the situation where um we really account for those residents who need to put in a pool or or make a a uh additions to their homes and make sure that all of the trees are not cut down during major construction projects um I do want to say that re regarding the replacement of the trees um I agree there needs to be a one for one replacement one of the things that has Disturbed me about the tree replacement which kind of relates to the 200 feet as well is that we have serious flooding problems all over town and if you are cutting down a tree on one block and not replacing it on the same block we're not mitigating the flood problems also the trees really contribute to the Beauty and the home value of that block of that neighborhood and a lot of the residents on that block should be or would be or need to be educated to be concerned so I agree that we really need at least 200 feet notification if you're putting in a fence or doing some other kind of work on your home the neighbors have to be notified so I that's those are the areas that I think are important relating to the the tree ordinance um Joyce Ruden same thing uh regarding the quick cas ual food we've been through that we've discussed this situation a while ago um I want to thank you for uh bringing it up again and for Phil L off reminding us that the planning board had discussed this in detail and agreed that we shouldn't have these quick casual restaurants and that wasn't what they were applying for so why all of a sudden now are we having fast food forced down our throat and I think many of the residents of this town have come out and said they don't want this town to have fast food restaurants all over the place they'd like to see some nicer restaurants and like to see us work to beautify the town in a different direction um so again I won't be voting for that as well CLA kovak uh sylvestri sorry um thank you for giving us that very substantive View and clarification of how the ordinance read and how they are put forward as you know I lobbied for the full five minutes as one of the very first initiatives that I had when I came on this Council back in j a week a January not this January but last January I've just finished my first year it is so important that we give our residents and we saw with Mr tractenberg today he had a very substant AR argument and he needed to educate the public who doesn't understand any of the details of what he was saying it can easily take five minutes when you're talking about a complex topic to educate people about what the different details are and many times you need that full five minutes I do want to ask our residents not to be redundant to be respectful and to try to keep it brief if they can and I think think if we all work together we'll be able to do that and preserve the opportunity for us all to educate the public about the things that we know it's very very very important this is really the only Forum many have said many years ago we've always had more open General meetings when there were different things going on there's a lot of development that's going to be going on now with Main Street and there's going to be a lot of discussion and a lot of information that people need to learn about that so it's very important that we have the opportunity to communicate that here and hopefully I've actually requested that we have more General meetings where we can educate the public on various large projects that are going on um Pastor Adams thank you so much uh for educating everyone about this position it is a labor of love everyone knows that I'm not a politician I never wanted a political career I'm a mother I'm a speech therapist I'm a former businesswoman but more importantly I care about this community I grew up in this community I went through the schools from when I was five years old and when Ros Rosary mlli got me started and talked to me about some of the things that were going on in town particularly with the seniors I felt I had no choice but to get involved and run for Council a number of times and I am so thrilled to be up here to be able to do the work that I think needs to get done but I spend every weekend learning all of these ordinances and all of these different things that are going on it takes me all weekend to to get through this stuff so it is clearly a labor of love and the one thing is I know that so many residents do appreciate it I've had so many who have sent me letters around the holiday and said said thank you so much for all we do we can see the work you're doing and thank you for giving our residents a voice so you know that I will be voting to preserve the five minutes and I will continue to listen to All of the residence for as long as it takes um Walter Kip I've enjoyed working with you and I love listening to you and all of your expertise um I've learned a lot from you but I have to say with you know the tree ordinance again I think we need that 200 feet and I think we need to make sure that for every tree that we take down we put another one up in the similar area um and I think that's read it thank you councilwoman Scara councilwoman Williams thank you council president um greetings everyone thank you for coming out this evening thank you for continuing to stay to give us the opportunity to respond to your public comments um I want to again just briefly respond to what happened at last council meeting um we had five hours of very racially charged public comment um much of which I consider to be hate speech and anti-semitic rhetoric and while this body recently passed a resolution to Define anti-semitic speech the comments at that meeting were Absolut Ely unacceptable allowing anti-semitic rhetoric is dangerous to everyone because it perpetuates hatred discrimination and violence not only against Jewish people but it also undermines the principles of equality and tolerance in our society by normalizing anti-Semitism it sets a precedent for the acceptance of all forms of bigotry and Prejudice ultimately eroding the fabric of a harmonious and inclusive community additionally history has shown us and continues to show us every day that unchecked anti-Semitism often leads to devastating consequences making it imperative to confront and condemn such rhetoric unequivocally um I am absolutely appreciative that we have eliminated public comment this evening from the zoom audience um certainly we will have continued discussion and debate about how we can change our meetings to such costic meetings to actually doing the people's business with that I just it was very difficult in the moment and each of us did respond but we were shocked so for the emails that we have received criticizing each of us um allowing or or suggesting that the council president um even encouraged um this type of behavior it's just unacceptable I think I said it best and I will say it again what happened two weeks ago was not West Orange it's not who we are it's not what we are and it's not how we're going to continue to move forward um so I just want to unequivocally in no uncertain terms um say that what happened can never happen again it it's just not acceptable it's it it cannot ever happen again and whether it be from thank you and whether it be from whoever is monitoring the zoom audience obviously we've made some adjustments here today and we know that that hopefully will never have an opportunity to recur um but for those of you who don't understand how serious we are um you can't come in here into our house and be disrespectful no more than we can disrespect anyone that is our resident or just someone who happens to show up here it's just not going to be allowed so thank you for that opportunity to be clear about how we're going to continue governing um moving forward as far as um the tree ordinance is concerned um we certainly get to that um when we get further into the debate I am not supportive of notification past contiguous um residents I do understand um that there may be impact sometimes on um tree removal but I think um that is why we are trying to do things to tighten up our our tree ordinance but we have to also be mindful that when we are doing these ordinances we're not doing ordinances and resolutions for today we're doing them and certainly we can come back and make changes and make adjustments but we don't need to put forth legislation that really doesn't have the capacity to be enforced or enforceable um I think that's just a waste of our time and energy um so before um we move forward with this tree ordinance I agree um with Mr brick um in addition to some of the information that has been communicated to us from the state um that will be mandated as far as onetoone tree replacement we may need to consider just having a workshop all the parties coming again together I just pulled out a document that Mr brick had uh provided to us last year this tree ordinance has been three years in the making we have we have tried and tried and tried and tried but what we want to do is get it right we want to make sure we are not imposing hardships on our neighbors um some of the things that exist in this ordinance as is currently written migrating animals and making sure sure that before you remove a tree um that that you have some type of study done to determine whether or not migratory Birds might utilize that tree well I don't know about any of you but I don't have the money to to to have someone come and do an inspection I don't even know who I would call who who would I call to to to say is my tree impacted by migratory birds I mean of course they are birds migrate from the the North to the South annually so I I just think we need to really think through um some of the features in this ordinance um and and take some time do a workshop make sure we're all on the same page and make sure that we're getting this right I do believe that 800 trees it's actually almost a thousand trees that we take down annually based on the stats that our forests are just um provided to us we cannot continue to sustain that type of tree loss without some type of capacity to replenish and replant trees so hopefully we can um either make some distinctions between what a developer has the opportunity to do versus a resident um and make some distinctions there um but certainly we just need to be mindful that a regular resident should not have to go through hoops loops and hurdles just to cut down a tree um in their own property I just think that's ludicrous um as far as the vision zero plan is concerned um again that has been um a work in progress as we saw but I did want to address some of the comments um that were made um Miss Morelli you talked about seniors um there were some surveys done for the seniors and certainly there was portions I think this was an overview um of the plan just brief um but there is particular uh parts of this Vision zero plan that is specific to to seniors and Senior concerns and then um Miss Bell talked about since the majority of the roads are County Roads with the county uh chip in as far as funding is concerned um there are always programs grant opportunities um where the county and the municipality as well as the federal government can work together um to find ways to fund some of these changes so my immediate answer without even having to confirm with the county would be absolutely if those opportunities exist it would absolutely be a partnership um and those funds would would be um applied for um as far as the drive-throughs are concerned or the fast casual restaurants um I know we will have a vigorous debate about um what is considered fast food versus fast casual um we have to understand that maybe when the planning board came into the definitions you know just as we're saying now we're still trying to modify ordinances and resolutions we have to change with the time I certainly don't want to see um West Orange become a fast food Haven but I do want us to be open to different types of dining opportunities um Commerce um and and business um in our community it's great to have a um restaurant that might be a sitdown uh restaurant but what we do know is those restaurants are very difficult to open and to sustain um case in point we've had the Hendrick house um trying to open for over a year um while it is a chain it is still a a smaller type of restaurant um it's very difficult to sustain it to get it open to sustain it um and so we have to be mindful of that when we we have to be willing to work and be open uh to opportunities that are going to present themselves to us um excuse me in the future thank you um tree ordinance the highlands we made reference to the highlands I do believe that it is a grave concern of this Administration to put something in place as far as the tree ordinance is concerned um before the highlands application does make it um to our boards our land use boards while certainly we don't know um whether it or not it will it is a very real concern um because the application is there and it is a court case and so we do realize that there are entities out there that are opposing um that Redevelopment project right now we don't really have a way to Halt or cease that and we want to make sure if that development moves forward um we do have the capacity to make sure we protect and or restore our tree canopy um from that development project um thank you Pastor Adams um for again just continuing to um talk about dorum and again um appreciate your support of us who sit behind this day um again it was just a shocking experience a lot of that meeting I I just had to take myself off camera because I was just appalled and the look on my face with my mouth hanging down to the floor listening to um different people's comments it was just horrid it was horri that um will complete my comments for this evening until we get to further debate thank you thank you councilwoman Williams um so uh I'm going to reserve the bulk of my comments on the agenda items uh for when they actually come up um as my colleague said I think we have a compromise that uh for the tree ordinance that should help protect residents give residents the flexibility they need uh to improve their own property while um preventing the clear cutting of large tracks of land um my position on um the public comment resolution what I want to say now is um my objection to that um in addition to the comments that we've already had about free speech and allowing the public to um speak directly with the Town Council um if we were to approve this resolution uh it would make it difficult to change it in the future uh without four votes uh and that's a challenge for me um what we've seen recently is the mayor has vetoed um excuse me what we've seen recently is the mayor has vetoed uh excuse me uh what we've seen recently is that the mayor has used her veto power uh with um 3-2 votes in this chamber and so I didn't realize this last year when we moved all of our uh fee uh adjustments from from ordinance to resolution it didn't dawn on me that that that would essentially give the mayor a vote on changing our fees uh because if three council members wanted to change them and two did not um the mayor could veto and then it would require four four votes to overturn um and so I'm not I'm not for that I think we have a strong mayor uh form of government I don't think we need to make the mayor any stronger uh and that's not that's regardless of the person in the seat the way our local government works is we have a Town Council that is the governing body and we are the legislative branch and that is our role um and then we have an executive branch that is led by the mayor uh and I think uh that form works or when it's working properly it works well um so I do want to uh thank all of those that have expressed some uh kindness and compassion for myself and my colleagues as a result of what we went through um last week I'm going to end on a high note so I want to talk about this now um I am deeply disappointed with the hate mail that I have received um from so many people um shockingly um after being subjected to the exact same thing that they were complaining about um and I've I've been clear in my conversations and I've had many some with members that are here tonight um The Challenge last week um that was a new challenge for all of us we had not been through anything like that I did not know that that same group had already Zoom bombed two other Council meetings in New Jersey uh multiple Council meetings around the country as well as Board of Education meetings uh and since our council meeting um another nearby town was Zoom bombed as well uh they are effective they are organized um and we were victimized by them all of us were victimized by them so um to say that I somehow support and anti-semitic speech and only got upset when it was racist is to beely the facts uh for those that were there you witnessed how I conducted myself and whether you like me or not or agree with me or not one thing I think everybody should agree on is that I have been consistent I meet with anyone I talk to anyone unless you're disrespectful and there have been very few people that I have refused to meet with even some who have been disrespectful even some who have been subtly threatening I still meet with them and I think that's the job of a leader so I have been consistent in my response and I will continue to be consistent and I won't be swayed by the hundreds of emails that have sought to make this my fault uh I don't control the mute button I've never controlled the mute button that is not my job um and even if I did it would be I I I can't imagine how someone could look at if you've only known me for the four years I've been on this Council look at my conduct my track record and say that I would intentionally allow someone to be disrespectful to someone else because of their race or religion or even their gender um I've never done that my entire life I've stood up for those that have been oppressed neglected abused my entire life from the time I was a child what I said in that meeting was I really felt badly for my uh colleagues uh councilwoman Gabriel Michael and Williams um even more than myself because I've been called the nword more times than I can count and what I said in that meeting was I was first called it when I was in the first grade five years old five years old that's not new to me and it's a shame that it's not new to me but it does not have the same stting now as it did the first time or the 100th time when I saw my colleague crying and I could do nothing to stop that when I got the text messages and the read the chat about folks that were present in the meeting and were horrified and there was literally nothing I could do you know I felt I felt for them and I still feel for them even when some of them are misplacing their anger um I say all of this because I'm very hopeful that that was our Rock Bottom the behavior that was displayed that night night not just by those that Zoom bombed us but there were some other comments that were right up to the line if not Crossing it uh and that those comments were from residents it shows How Deeply divided we are and I think all of us should recognize that that's a problem and we have to we have to bridge that divide um so we are going to make some changes uh we are going to do some things differently uh My Hope and my expectation is that people of Good Will kind hearts and compassion will find a way to disagree without making Monsters of each other folks that consider themselves leaders in this town will find a way to conduct themselves in all of their public spaces in a way that honors the role that they hold whether elected appointed or hired uh as Leaders it is incumbent on each of us to model the behavior we want to see in our neighbors um so you know my heart goes out to everybody that was affected uh if there was anything I could do to keep them from infiltrating our meeting I would have done it I think it's important to let folks know that immediately following the zoom bombing I was contacted by the Anti-Defamation League um and after a wonderful phone call um was offered support uh for our law enforcement officers that are investigating I've met with and spoken to the detective I have connected him and the Anti-Defamation League and I trust that the resources they have um combined with our outstanding police work here locally and also with the FBI which I have also contacted that together we will actually find who did this and I know it's a difficult task um but if it can be done I am trusting that the professionals uh that have done this work will be able to find them and if they are I trust that we will prosecute them to the fullest extent the law allows um that won't undo what happened thank you it won't undo what happened but it will hopefully discourage people from trying it again um but we have some things we need to do here too so in new business tonight we're going to speak about doing some free speech hate speech bias harassment training we're going to discuss multiple changes to our public comment some are designed to make it less likely that those who Express public comment that someone might not like uh would be able to then retaliate against them um for tonight I I've said that we have to give our name and address when we gave public comment and and I I noticed that we were done at 810 I don't know if that had anything to do with it or not uh but people have reached out and said they are afraid and they've said it in public comment they're afraid to give their address because of retaliation uh so we'll discuss what some of our changes can be to help protect people um we try to lower the amount of time public comment um for public comment from five minutes to to well I have two colleagues that wanted five minutes I have two colleagues that wanted three minutes I offered a compromise at four I wasn't able to get a third vote for that fourth uh maybe tonight uh we can for the four-minute compromise uh but that is done for multiple reasons not the least of which is so that we can get out of here at a decent time uh last thing I uh two more things I do agree with my colleague that the video should be posted I think it is important that people are able to witness the behavior of that night it was Despicable deplorable and I think it should be posted but I I do think that uh the most offensive words should be uh muted so not to cause further injury uh you can tell what people are trying to say by the words they say before and after um but I do think it it marks a low point for us and I think we need to be reflective about that take a look at ourselves and how we've conducted ourselves and how we got to this place uh because the division didn't happen by itself now there was an article there was a oped in yesterday's Star Ledger and I've said this in council chambers before uh there's an AR article an naed yesterday that talked about how there are political forces that are using this issue to further divide communities for their own political agenda um this is not just about neighbors having a disagreement uh there is an intentional pitting of neighbor against neighbor over an issue to further divide and I'm going to be blunt they want black people to argue and fight with Jewish people and white people they want Jewish people to argue and fight with black people and white people and they want white people to argue and fight with Jewish people and black people so that we can all be divided we don't have to agree on everything and we're not going to but we do have to agree that there has to be a certain Baseline level of respect in our disagreement um and that has been eroded and that was that is being done intentionally for a political agenda whether you agree with me or not that is my opinion it's been my opinion for some time I've stated it publicly and now two of our state leaders in the black and Jewish Community have written an oped in the largest newspaper in New Jersey echoing the same sentiment so if you disagree with me I am not alone um whether people agree with councilwoman GB Michael's comments or not and I want to thank you for your courage and your conviction um and your moral compass whether you agree with her comments or not what you should agree is that she's a kind and caring human being she's being targeted too it's unfair I it boggles my mind how adults can type some of the messages they've typed and say some of the things they've said about any of us but let alone my colleague to my right um it has gotten out of hand on a separate issue that should have been innocuous the Banning of gas powerered leaf blowers someone sent an email threatening physical violence to councilwoman gbra Michael and Scarpa now that's crazy that is exactly what it is it's crazy and we've got to be aware that there is crazy around us so when we incite anger and hostility towards someone while you may never act on it your neighbors and Friends may never Act on it you have no idea what someone who is not well will do because of what you say so we have to do better ah you're welcome so um yeah I have uh suggested that we ban Zoom comments permanently um uh when we get to that point we will we will deal with all of the recommendations but I wanted to say that because one of the public commenters raised it and I I think um I think we've had enough of that um we tried it didn't work um all right so that said um again I want to thank Mr Fagan I want to thank the vision zero folks I really do wish we had more time for question and answer with them I'm excited about uh being able to advocate for and execute on some of their uh or all of their suggestions actually I didn't find anything objectionable um in there um in their presentation so all of their suggestions I found helpful I want to thank uh director fonzo I do do have some challenges with the resolution uh the ordinance that's on tonight but I do uh thank him for his leadership with regard to the dog park with that Madame clerk thank you okay uh consent agenda review approval of minutes of previous meeting recessed meeting of December 19th that took place on February 13 24 and minutes from February 13 2024 consent consent thank you report of Township officers none reading of petitions as you leave please um maintain the Quorum reading of petitions and Communications and bids none bills there are no bills can I ask a question about the bills yes why don't we have bills yet a curios we're just finishing closing out as soon as we do the next the next meeting we'll have thank you um resolutions are any resolutions being pulled this evening it's really hard to hear the cler speaking in the a please refrain the for the from the conversation until you exit council chambers thank you colleagues uh any Council pres yes sir I didn't know whether you wanted to do a minute or two minute recess to give people a chance to do whatever they're gonna do without you mean is that what you mean are people people to leave yeah just right just because of the the noise yeah here that way everybody has a chance to and then rest start the meeting yes no sure we we'll we'll take a two minute recess allow folks to uh back thank you sir uh where we left off um res Madam CL words are any resolutions being pull colleagues are you pulling any resolutions yes uh 7 73 okay um if if you're just pulling if you just have questions please let us know uh but you're pulling 73 correct yes any others I have questions on 75 uh and 77 77 let me just make sure those are the only ones what about 82 did you get anything uh did you want you have questions on 82 yeah 8224 uh do you want want to pull it or you have questions um I'll pull it okay uh 82 councilwoman Scara is pulling 82 the financial consulting I have a question on 72 you have a question on 72 I just wanted to know who served previously in the um compliance officers role 72 yeah this is that this this is housekeeping we do it every year uh she has you know that position has always served in that capacity it's a required appointment there's no there there's no compensation for it it's just an official act I think the question was who served in that role last and that would be our our purchasing agent the same person yes okay thank you thank you did we want to pull 7124 the downtown West Orange Alliance uh do we need to we can we just do that well do we need to pull it you need to have a public hearing so so then 71 okay not yet not yet in just a moment anything else uh colleagues I think that's it for me so we have I did have one other question we were um regarding 76 um Chief we rejected the responses for the Cannabis consultant yes uh we only had one everything else had fatal flaws we only had one it was exorbitantly expensive we could never justify passing that expense on to these businesses that are just opening all right we're going to go back out though give we that's what was going to be my question okay thank you the resolution though referenced and I'm not looking at it so I'm sure I'll get it wrong but it reference that we didn't respond in time well they're expired now anyway okay yeah so if we don't do something within 60 days it's we have to start over I believe that's correct we we either have to start over or or get permission from them to extend okay which you can do but since we're not we don't have an intention to or person right okay got it um all right so before we do what's actually been pulled let me get to questions uh councilwoman Williams question on 72 was answered uh I have questions on 75 so um first question is was this included in our capital budget um not by name because this just basically not too long ago uh during a storm it ripped got it so this is this is an emergency you know procurement in that sense it doesn't state that it's an emergency aren't there different rules for emergency it's not it's not a technical emergency because we're not like we didn't do it that day and go do it already Okay in an emergency we just because it's an emergency we would go out and and buy it and then come to you with an emergency resolution we didn't feel that this warranted that however we do you know we don't think that we'll be able to last until the spring now having said that we're still using the same compar you know competitive process by using a co-op uh to in order to do it we're just going to get done as quickly as possible so that we don't lose salt um because of the weather exposure in addition we just purchased a tremendous amount of salt because you all gave us a bill well we we all we spend a lot more than that and yes the idea is that we absolutely need to try to protect the Sal absolutely okay so so I'm a little confused with the paperwork though so this this is being awarded at $12,238 right but what is this clear span quote what page there's a unless there's a oh it says quote to Murray Contracting but the top says clear span and it's it's for 79,000 but can you explain to me how this is working are there two so how does this work I think there's different components to the but there's only one contract um I I I mean I I can get more detail to be honest with you I don't have all those details um but it looks to me like Murray is being awarded the contract and they're subbing out a part of it or they're purchasing equipment from clear span I I that's what I think I think there's different components uh from it it it it's it's it's marketed it's as a package from through the co-op uh and I think there may be different vendors do performing different aspects of it so the challenge for me though is it looks like clear span is charging 79,000 and and and we're paying 1002 I know we have to install it but that's it's like a $220,000 install is it am I misreading that and I could be I'm you know actual the the the way I read it is $24,000 for the cover the installation the wage rate installation was 4 5,000 and then some additional portions in walls was an additional 5,000 well that comes up to the 79,000 right which comes up bless where's the difference coming from this is confusing to me now I do appreciate the pictures because I could see the rips right it's obvious we need to do it and we certainly don't want to lose the 600,000 we just spent on salt um but I don't understand how we're coming up with these numbers the math is not mathing not adding up um so then since we don't have an answer this evening and so we don't belabor this um Can Can we table this until we can get better clarification on the depth discrepancy well I'll Mr G do you have you can take a minute to see if there's a way to better explain it to us and let me be let me be clear I am grateful that you provided this level of detail this is exactly what we want um and I think this will help us do our job and help help you do yours as well can we at least come back to it while he's doing his research just give him we'll give him another second or two we should if we can get it off our plate and not have to come back another meeting with it if take too much I don't mean another meeting I mean just can we move on to something while he's yeah figure it out okay let's come back sure sure all right so that was 75 uh I also had questions uh 76 was answered there questions on 77 yeah that was mine I'm just curious and this is a general question not really for this specific one um but it seems like we we and and I'm not trying to be critical of anyone I'm just trying to understand how these tax appeals I mean it seems like almost every meeting we have tax appeals that we lose and we end up having to refund taxes so how do we how are we in a situation where we're because that that would indicate to me that we're overcharging folks for taxes um and if we are then the only way to really know is if you're appealing it so well you you're you're 100% right and that is the sauce that that makes up th this this process of how we assess taxes I mean we we do we the tax assessor department does the best job of trying to figure out how to uh spread the the the the cost of running Township business equally across all property taxpayers based on the value of their property and so um when when a a a the system is set up that the assessor does the assessment notifies the property taxpayer and if the property taxpayer thinks that the assessment is wrong they have the right to appeal and there's a process to do it and that is the only way that that it works so if if if you're over assessed and you choose not to appeal or don't know that you're over assessed you may continue to be over assessed now what we've found out over the years for the most part neighbors talk uh people in the community and you know this is an important issue for most people so we think people are for the most part um pretty cognizant if taxes their assessments are out of whack but there may be situations where that's not the case you're right about that so I have a question sorry sure you just admit it that the administration does overcharge in taxes no that's not what I said I said that the the the tax assessor does does the best job to assess value it's not it's not like it's not it's not like you know there's a there there's a catalog say well you got four bedrooms therefore it's worth this much money it's based on the market and as the market um evolves um the and and and and the the demands change that so does the potential assessments of of a property but there are residents that wouldn't know that they would have to do a tax appeal and who pays for that tax appeal if the township is overcompensated okay so I'm just trying to this is the system system that we live with it's not something that we invented but um there are lots and lots and lots of attorneys out there that take these cases on an annual basis for just about any taxpayer with no money up front and they take whatever they save the taxpayer they end up taking a portion a third of that usually uh on on over some period of time and that's that's that's how it gets paid for and that's the process now you know there's no perfect system now in in in Mammoth County um there they have a different system there they're they do it they do a re basically reval every year um in every in every community and they make adjustments based on computer generated models um and they make those adjustments and then every property owner gets to decide whether or not they want it's still same thing still got to go through an appeal process still go through uh you have to get representation and and go through it and that's there's a County board of appeals now the County board of appeals system is you you can do that without an attorney uh it's it's more it's a it's a taxpayer friendly environment um you know that because it's it it's more locally run it's not like a court of law the more sophisticated and the bigger cases actually go to Tax Court there that's a that's up the whole different thing so it's it's not a perfect system um but it is you know and and you know we we do when you do the reval one of the reasons everybody wants to hates revals is because that's when everybody's value changes and and and you'll see an uptick of appeals because as hard as we try as much money as we spend on professionals to get it right sometimes the the market shifts and and and it you know there's an economic downturn in the middle of doing a Ral and and and everything changes so who represents the Township in those cases um we have uh attorney we have we have we have two attorneys that represent us for all of our tax appeals one does all commercials one does residential uh they we pay them a flat fee uh per year yeah I I just can't recall the name but I do recall the contract um all right uh any other questions on that I I will just add that there you did mention that there are a lot of attorneys who do tax appeals um there are so many attorneys that do tax appeals and many of them um don't have an upfront charge fee and they only do tax appeals um usually a resident will get a little concerned about their taxes you can look and see what your neighbors taxes are um Realtors are always asked constantly can you look at my street and make sure my taxes are similar um that's the regular service that Realtors can provide all right any other questions on that that was uh 77 uh I think that was the last one that had questions yes all right so so Madame clerk we are going to can you confirm what we're pulling okay so we pulled 7124 7324 and 8224 71 73 thank you 71 73 and 82 excuse 82 is there a motion to approve the consent consent or second okay all in favor any opposed the consent agenda is implemented um the first resolution pulled was 7124 public hearing and Adoption of the township I'm sorry Downtown West Orange Alliance special improvement district 2024 budget you need a third hand did we post no question I actually do have um I'm Megan BR downtown Alliance executive director I'm sorry Megan I'm sorry I'm sorry director I'm sorry director just realized an error so 75 we agreed to wait and come back after you know what do you want to go ahead and I thought about that I was gonna say if you want to go ahead and and and approve it and I I before we let out the contract we'll get back to you with a with a full detail as to what if there's something wrong with it obviously we'll bring it back and have I don't think the numbers don't add up so I don't know how we go I read it it's clear that that the total price is 12,000 for the contract that is through the co-op um again I don't I can't tell you the the breakdown of of the documents that were sent to you I I agree with you that they're you know they're confusing I can't in good conscience do that I appreciate you know trying to but yeah so so we have to pull 75 Madame clerk what do we what do we do about that how do we handle that Mr J motion to rent agend so I make a motion I make a mo motion to revise revise the consense agenda um and Pull and pull 75 resolution 7524 are youing or pulling table second okay hold on one second okay so I realiz sorry about that um okay councilwoman gber Michael Yes councilwoman scorpa yes councilwoman Williams yes council president Rutherford yes okay okay now we're ready for the exe executive director thank you very much um before I get started with our presentation thank you so much for entertaining us again I did want to say um there's been some really Soulful moving comments tonight and um and I thought it would be really great to announce that our volunteer West orang High School uh graduate ROTC kid um became a citizen of America yesterday um um it was a a really great ceremony and he didn't want to take pictures or any of that stuff he just is very happy to uh be an American uh finally after living here for a very long time so congratulations will or don't okay all right so we did see some of the presentation that we were going to talk about so I'm going to fast forward to um slot page two of our PowerPoint and I wanted to concentrate on um our website uh like our stats that um really we've jumped a great deal in our social media reach um on Facebook Instagram our website and our the West Orange app to have three times the amount of users on that is really um really great and uh and we continue we're going to keep that trajectory going um can tell oh thank you um I can tell you that a large part of our ability to hit the social media goals that that we set is because of Amy mccampbell um our social media G um you know and actually Amy put together uh this this PowerPoint for us too so um it's it's just really important to know that we um we we really need need that help in the office and that we have 300 businesses that were responsible for um and uh it's really a lot easier with the extra set of hands in the office um second part is the overall uh of our budget our income is not changing uh actually it is it is changing by $2,000 um so it was 133,000 in assessment this year it's 135 all the rest of the numbers are the same so our total overall budget including our in kind which is just our office in the basement and lights and stuff like that is 288,000 so the actual cash budget is 260,000 908 um we've laid that budget very similar to how we did it last year we um took a little bit of money and put it in Economic Development um we're hoping to have a real uh plan that dovetails with the township Economic Development and we have a couple of new board members that are specifically within that skill set so we thought that bumping that up a little bit would um would be helpful this year we also we were able to find that money um because we reduced the marketing budget by $3,000 um and we ended up putting that extra three in visual Improvement we found that for the first time last year we saturated our visual Improvement budget so we added uh the 3,000 to that for overall $ 28999 um some of the important contributions that we uh that we make towards improving the way Main Street looks is our holiday decorations and most people don't don't get that we have about a 100 snowflakes and 60 banners out on Main Street for several months during Christmas time and that they cost $188,000 um one snowflake is like $500 um so it's uh it's important for us to brighten up downtown especially in the cold winter months and that's a a large part of the money that uh we put towards the township contribution we also are in charge of garbage cans and maintenance I talked about garbage can is $1,000 and we were able to paint a bunch of cans for like only $150 so we are continuing to look at everything that we do and try to make it as coste efficient as we possibly can and keep the beautification that we really need for people to enjoy walking around on on Main Street in the downtown Corridor um some of the initiatives that we're going to put through in in 2024 this actual this picture this mural is the new coffee shop that is over at 8 Main Street it's um it's called Orange Sky Roasters and they are a little coffee shop they have uh cants and some edible items and uh and they roast beans there so it's actually you can go in and buy you know a big bag of beans or get any kind of coffee uh that you want they had their soft opening on Saturday we're planning a ribbon cutting be sign to them they're still getting uh their feet wet uh they are a brand new brand new store they are a um a property owner as well they bought that building and they put their store in there which was really great um some of the initiatives and things that the money in this budget is going to go for are our re accreditation for National Main Street we've been in National Main Street Main Street for 23 years and um and we're we have to recertify this year so there's going to be time and effort they'll be lots of community involvement in order to get the accredit get the accreditation back and uh and part of this budget will go to help support that we need to update our strategic plan um and uh and work on that and that will duvail with the with accreditation they kind of go hand inand um we want to support the Redevelopment initiatives that are happening um downtown we do not want the movie studio to have um a negative impact on the downtown businesses and our community so we're hoping to be able to uh pull in and modify whatever the plans are that come through to have a positive impact on our community downtown um we had a really great a uh event with the New Jersey Economic Development Association we had about 25 different business owners come in sorry guys um and so we had the idea that we we're going to start the bright ideas Academy which will be a quarterly business seminar where our businesses come in they'll come downtown they'll be different times there'll be at different uh places throughout the corridor and we're going to discuss storefront Mastery uh using social media to grow your business and presentations from the business action center and uh NJ Eda again um one of the the things that we're going to add to downtown Thursdays is a movie night we thought it would be really cool the tail again on the movie movie studio that is coming um that we have a a a movie down at uh at the back 40 at the Edison mum um it'll be free we could bring in some food trucks have some businesses that are here and uh we'll be able to hang out at the Museum and on Alden Street um we also have invention alley which is the alley next to Supreme Bakery um that is a bridge between Main Street and one of our largest parking lots so we have a bunch last year we bought a bunch of um their plastic uh items like leaves and flowers and all kinds of cool stuff to decorate the top of the alley uh in this budget we're going to create a mural on that one wall that's on the the the other side of the Supreme Bakery wall so that will enhance St Marks is a great place making effort in and of itself um we want to really enhance that and brighten up that alley it's a little dreary to walk through so we're hoping that the canopy of like cool fun stuff over top and a mural would be great so watch for uh our request and RFP about um what you want to see on that wall and that deails in with uh our strategic plan we're going to ask folks in in town what what they want what they think what they think is cool what they think we could do and um and ask for help to get that done um we also want to introduce a fall Music Festival event there's some funding that's available for um the Arts that we are pretty sure we're going to be able to get participate in and that will help us pull off a big music festival downtown we have music All Around Town um but we thought we had a really great response from a couple of different bands that we got rained out on for downtown Thursday this year but they were our wildly attended event breaks everybody signed up and then we had to cancel because of the you know the weather um so that's all the stuff that's built into the budget some of the stats that I think are really important and what I think um makes me so proud to be a West Orange resident so the downtown Corridor is 182 Property Owners the the income that we get that 135,000 is from those 182 property owners in that 182 properties there's 258 storefronts oh we spent fths wrong sorry that means Storrs so like the Edison La is one property but there's seven stores in that in that property so that's how we end up getting 258 storefronts then we have two big buildings that have second third and fourth floor uh tenants and then we have a bunch you know a few uh storefronts that have second and third floor office building so collectively we're responsible for over 300 businesses so we're monitoring their websites their social media their Instagram their Twitter feeds any signs that they have to do any help that they need their uh we're hopefully their place that they stop first to get to get help but it's it's a lot of lot of businesses that turnover a little bit so um sometimes it's it's some new stuff the the next St I think is great we have 11 property owners that own more than one property downtown um and we have a few that own more than more than two uh which is great they uh they saw buying you know they bought the property next door down the street and um and we have 11 of those those kinds of Property Owners we also have if you flip to the other side uh we have 25 properties owned by Western orange residents so they live in town they don't have their store there but they live in town and they rent a building to somebody downtown um which I think is great in addition to that we have 61 property owners that own their building and have their store there and this number jumped up it was 50 last year it's 61 this year and what we did see is a trend that folks are buying property property and then they're putting their storage there so they're not just using it as an investment they really are participating in in the town and offering a good product or service and our overall assessment of the 182 properties is 1624 uh downtown which is uh which is pretty solid um so that is our budget John mroy our chair is usually here with us he had an emergency bus that he needed to tellw when he's stuck in like Upstate New York um he's going to try to get here I told him we're still still at and I'm not sure where he is um but if he was here he would say please vote Yes um we need your support and um and I respectfully will take any questions and ask you the supporter budget once again this year than thank you director Brew all right any questions from my colleagues councilwoman G Michael not a question more so a comment um I'm really excited for the new initiatives I love this I was actually G to mention it to you earlier I just came back from Kena Columbia last night and I was just blown away by their Arts District they have the canopies that have like all the different country flags or flowers or umbrellas um and mural love the umbrella idea it's really cute yes and tourists go there and murals art murals everywhere and on the bottom of the murals they have the Instagram handles and every where in that area tourists were lined up to take photos and would tag right the artists the municipality that downtown or whatever that neighborhood was so I love this and I love that we are doing this like this is so exciting and so cool thank you thank you it it's funny because when our board members and folks that are volunteers with us when they go on vacation they send me pictures of that kind of stuff and garbage cans and Planters and all that good stuff so I'll send them to you okay please do we love to see it do you have a question good all right no great great job I'm excited to thank you so much I'm sorry that Michelle wasn't here she did participate in creating the PowerPoint with us um and she you know she's really got to be sick for not not being here I hope she gets well thank you heing from you know to see if there's any like an ordinance have to call for a public uh we're going to open public comment on the downtown West Orange Alliance uh budget presentation if anyone would like to approach the microphone and have public comment you are welcome to do so now same rules will apply one I got turn it back on after the break hi Nicole Bell uh 31 under a drive and this is a last minute comment I'm was downtown today and it's very interesting that you talked about the garbage cans I parked in the lot behind the post office and I had the remnants of my lunch don't tell The Net Zero people that I was eating my lunch in my car don't judge me but I took it out of my car so that I could throw it in the trash and there was no trash can so I walked not you know back down this way but up towards Northfield and I did see a trash can at the beginning of the parking lot I said ah there'll be one on the corner I don't have to go back there and there was not not one on the this corner on on Northfield or this corner on Northfield and I walked up towards miabella so I support the budget especially if there's a little extra money for a couple more garbage cans thank you thank you I I really appreciate that comment and uh there's there's there's a double edge sore to the garbage that that happens downtown when residents tend to dump big bags of garbage in our garbage cans um our first thing that we do is we pull the garbage can off on Main Street so I'm kind of fighting waiting with folks to say we need the gorbage C back we need somebody that's going to empty it when it gets full but it is like a daily thing the corridor is 3 miles long and we do have Dan you saw uh Joe posted Dan the cleanup man um we do we do pay Dan like 100 hours a month to clean up garbage downtown um but there's a lot of people walking around there's a lot of garbage blowing around so I I appreciate that but I didn't realize it wasn't a can in that lot so I will make sure that we get something over there okay got so um councilwoman I'll I'll give mine as councilwoman govern thank you uh Miss Bell for your commentary and and um Miss bril I received an email from a resident who complained about uh there not being any trash cans in downtown so I'm excited for us to finally get some there are 67 that are there yeah colleagues they wanted to mention me yeah so um Miss bril I want to um connect with you oh I'm sorry anyone else from public comment seeing none public comment is now closed um Miss bril I want to connect you and uh uh Miss carbal uh she and I uh were able to secure solar garbage cans and recycling cans from the county uh there was some challenge last year I want to delve deep into the weeds but we never took receipt uh so tomorrow morning um if you don't get an email from me please remind me uh so that the three of us can go and get those garbage cans uh there are at least two and those are the ones that will notifi DPW when they are full so that they don't have to just drive by um they're notified when they need to be emptied um yeah all right um so we got going to vote on 71 yes um is there a motion to approve 7124 second councilwoman gber Michel yes councilwoman scorpa yes councilwoman Williams yes council president Rutherford yes okay thank you director bro and councilwoman calina okay uh 7324 resolution authorizing execution and Professional Services agreement with Joseph Wenzel as Municipal Pro uh prosecutor at a rate of $1,000 per week um councilwoman gber Michael you pulled that yes I pulled it cuz uh it was not put out to bid and it wasn't clear and with in the way the resolution was was written it stated that it is a um renewal but then that it wasn't put out the bid it's a Professional Services contract and it was done it was done to RFQ yes but it said hold on because it says in here that it wasn't um give me one one moment um for going where at it's the one two three four five six whereas on the basis of the foregoing the agreement was not subject to a fair and open bidding process so that to me tells me that it was not put out to bid so I don't know how we can support a contract that's over $1,000 I mean that's um $1,000 each week which is $52,000 the same issue we had with I would hold it and then I'll get CL mying was it did go out for an RF if it did that' be a different story we voted on it may a mistake in the resolution I I don't know I so let's let's make motion to table this then second or would we have to vote no because of what's written in here you'd have to how would you bless God bless you thank you well because when you when it comes back to us won't it still have the same wording well no God bless I it won't have if if it's wrong it won't have the same we we'll figure out whether you edited or whether we we submitted an edited one a new one okay so I make a motion to table uh resolution 7324 second or it's been moved and properly seconded already correct correct yes it was council president you seconded that yes okay sorry and uh Mr jengar was going to chime in but I think what he was going to say is that we will vote on it as amended right like if it does get represented it will be voted on as amended correct thank you okay councilwoman gber Michael to table to table councilwoman scar councilwoman Williams yes council president ruford yes I'm really sorry to the gentleman in the back who keep speaking you guys have been speaking throughout the meeting and council president has asked you guys several times for it's just difficult to hear up here because what we hear is Chatter in the background and then and there is definitely an echo yes there's an echo up here which you guys don't hear thank you okay okay uh resolution 8224 resolution authorizing execution of Professional Services agreement with Phoenix advisers LLC for municipal financial consulting uh councilwoman Scarpa yeah um a couple questions um my research has revealed that I know we had a a different um group that did the financial consulting for the Redevelopment and I was wondering um how was this group Phoenix advisor selected did it go out to bid and um what is been through an RFQ process same process that we we with all of our professional service contract but when was it and did we get the comp competitive bids like if if it goes out to bid I'd like to it's it's it's like all your professional service contracts they're done under the RFQ process request for qualifications right uh we we submitted a renewal to you at the last meeting which the council turned down so we went back to the list of of respondents and looked in there and put forth another a replacement but hasn't the list expired hasn't it been over 60 days I'm sorry has it been over 60 days since you received that list wasn't it isn't that the reason why we rejected the Cannabis consultant bids hasn't it been over 60 days are we can you go back and use that list or do you have to go off the bid as I as I mentioned to you then we we can they can agree to extend which they did um and so that you you can do that we didn't do it with the Cannabis because had no intention of extending okay so so that's not an issue what is the scope of work I just want to understand I didn't see any not to exceed and I was wondering how much so there's there's two two areas um the mo the primary area of this is with uh when we go out to um uh do do bonding uh and and finance work we're re required to have one it's it it's part of the process it's in in they they're um an integral part and they basically do the coordination of of procuring bonds uh and and or sell selling bonds and and and and creating a market so that that's part we also use them for instance uh from time to time when we have development projects where we need advice on and and we'll use utilize them in that area as well how much do we spend last year do you know off the top of your head on the on the previous Financial Consultant I think but I I don't remember off top of my head but I know we sent you I think we sent you uh the the bills from last year I because I'm wondering if it makes sense to add a not to exceed Claus in there and if so would it be 25,000 50,000 what kind of money are we talking about I'm just curious as to what the expenditure is I'm gonna see if I can find it it really I I would be concerned about putting a not to exceed clause in a Redevelopment right contract especially considering all the Redevelopment that we have right now this is not just for redevelopment right this is no no and it's it's primarily for for our bond work now um in this particular year um there's only probably only one or two issues that they're going to be dealing with because we've already dealt with one one issue with with the the extension of the contract that we currently have through um April so this year will be this contract will be worth less than than a full Year's contract I'm thank you I will say I did a quick scan I did not do a deep dive but I did look at the firm and uh some of the um members that are affiliated and found nothing wrong with them no complaints no issues again it was quick but um yeah I didn't find any and that was my concern earlier today uh but I have no no re reason to think that they're not um uh highly competent qualified I think also at the rate it's 195 uh for partners and that's about that's $5 per hour less than our last contract that's correct uh and it's $30 less than the renewed value of the contract um I'll move for oh go ahead I'll move for the acceptance of this councilwoman did you have something to say go ahead um okay councilwoman gber Michael Yes councilwoman Scarpa yes councilwoman Williams yes council president rther yes right motion is carried ordinances on second and final reading 28 37-24 an ordinance amending and supplementing chapter 7 traffic subsection 7- 32.2 restricted parking zones of the revised General ordinances of West Orange Township handicap spaces 77 Harrison Avenue 153 Randolph Place and 1 Tomkins street is there a motion to introduce councilwoman Deber Michael Yes councilwoman Scarpa yes councilwoman Williams yes council president Breer yes okay this is the time for the public hearing is it so we are now having public comment on 2837 uh d24 uh if anyone would like to comment that is in council chambers um the microphone is yours seeing none okay Madam clerk any councel no no okay okay is there a motion to approve 2037 second Council will did you second it yes okay thank you councilwoman gber Michael Yes councilwoman scorpa yes councilwoman Williams yes council president R yes okay motion carries ordinances on first reading 28 39-24 an ordinance repealing and replacing chapter 25 sections 27 of the revised General ordinances of the township of West Orange and establishing blank for Environmental Protection tree protection removal and replacement and so just for clarity sake if we do nothing on this for first reading fails okay thank you um okay is there a motion well before we do that I just wanted to um see if I can get support from my colleagues to amend it and if it's not substantive then we can still go forward with first reading is that right yes I guess the uh our our attorney Mr Jenaro will let us know if it is substantive or not yes so Mr Jenaro what we what what residents have a concern with is the ability for uh well-healed um individual Property Owners of any size to clearcut and just pay money into a tree fund uh instead of replanting trees um and what I'm hopeful we could do is uh clarify uh how the tree fund applies and I'll need your help kind of understanding how to put the language in there um but essentially what I would like to see us do is limit the ability to use the tree fund uh to property one acre or less so meaning if you have a a smaller property and you want to improve your home you you want to add a first floor bedroom to accommodate your aging parents for example and you have to cut down a tree uh or two or however many to do that and cannot put any or all of them back on the same property we want the ability for that property owner to be able to pay into the tree fund instead of replanting on their same on the same property if you have more than an acre then the expectation is and we can have some discussion about if that's the right size or not but if it's more than an acre you likely have enough space to replant on the same property am I am I communicating that clearly do that make sense I understand exactly what you're saying um just from a is this a minor change to the language versus substantive change to the language of the ordinance I would say leans more towards being substantive change to the language of the ordinance namely because it's not as if I can to revamp the tree removal Fund in the way that I think you're articulating would require different tiers to it and I think it would require much more additional language than just going through in a quick red line to how it's written now because I think it would also need there would need to be language in other sections of the ordinance that dovetail with the tree removal fund and tree replacement so in other words if one section of the so like for example if you are required to either replace a tree on your property you're paying to the tree fund as it's written now in one section of the ordinance I would then have to go change that one as well to Del tail it to how we want the tree removal Fund in section I think it's section eight right all right I um I definitely want to see that change that's the only way that I could support it uh with the tree fund um so let's you and I work on the language um I I will not put it forward if we can't make the change tonight okay that makes sense thank you thank you counc president I will um so if no one makes a motion fails so we're just not going to make a motion to address this tonight is the best way for us to do that I'll call for a motion okay thank you okay um is is there a motion to approve 28 39-24 seeing none the motion fails and back to the drawing all right next 20 8 40-24 an ordinance supplementing chapter 12 of the revised General ordinances of the township of West Orange and establishing chapter 10 section 16 for regulation of Township dog parks dog park rules and regulations is is there a motion to introduce on first reading we have discussion no you have to move it first you do have to move it first you have to move it first so so I is there a second no second okay motion fails okay next is 2040 yeah just for the record yeah I think there are some challenges with this so so I guess legal and uh Health Department director fanino need to know as well um I'm happy to defer to you if you'd like or or we both piggy back yes you go first so um first is is the passes I don't know how we are going to enforce that we just just had this major uproar about enforcing the ability to enforce gas powered leaf blow ban and not having built that in beforehand we're asking for uh fees uh for a pass that ultimately will have to be enforced somehow and I don't know exactly how nor do I know what the cost would be uh so you know I know we have other things that we don't have enforcement for uh I think we should be consistent in our approach going forward uh so if we're going to require something like this then we're going to need to address the Enforcement issue um and I think you wanted to speak about another issue in there so I agree with the council president Rutherford um how do we enforce but most importantly why do we I don't think we should be charging residents I've had residents complain to me about that um while I am so excited for West Orange municipal government to finally open a dog park um as people know who have dogs the county has when it South Mountain um the county doesn't charge other municipalities don't and while some might I don't think it's right to to charge uh to charge residents especially with taxes and fees We already pay um our residents pay and we pay to to to piggyback on that yeah if if um we want to increase fees for non-residents I'm fine with that increase them as much as you want with within reason um but again I think you know I I do agree with my colleague that to Res for residents we should um and now you know but and I do understand that there are some enforcement rules enforcement requirements too so I don't know how that lands uh but I don't think we can we I don't I don't I don't like it that way just as to to your point if you wanted to charge a fee to a non-resident that would mean you would still have to uh Institute having have a pass no because you have to have a way to to to identify you know who's in there legally and who's not in there legally so you if you if you wanted to um set up an ordinance where you have a you create this pass system and you have to have a pass in order to use the park uh you could not charge you could decide by resolution if you wanted to to charge nothing to Residents and some fee to non-residents you could I disagree with that respectfully I don't think we should be charging anything to dog park we don't do it for our playgrounds we don't do it for our regular parks I don't think we should do it for the dog park um that's just my okay but you're not arguing with me on that that was yeah with your Council colleague I'm just saying I I just want to say if you're gonna go down that route that route that would require you to to at least put in the place and and look at the end of the day this is is going to cost more money to maintain there's going to have to be a certain level of of Maintenance going to go into it and so the the idea is whether you charge or you don't charge um that that's a decision to be made but there will be more expenses for this just just the fact you know just clean up with nothing else so so the thought was to keep the expense the fees to a the bare minimum but you know as director funo said there's an underground irrigation system it's probably going to have to be the rise or maintain I don't know the ins and outs of that um he mentioned the the defecation bags you know keeping those stock things like that so this was like a user fee like the town pool is if you use the pool you pay if you don't use the pool you don't pay um as Mr Gro stated there's going to be expenses attending to this if they're going to be absorbed by all the taxpayers who may not have dogs and don't use it or they're going to be absorbed by the people who actually use it that's just a policy decision that the governing body can make that's why we have it just want to explain why that fee was kept to the bare minimum and just why it was there to begin it's not a money maker it's just to to maintain it well then maybe we should look at different ways um regarding the irrigation system where it's more cost effective and well that's for hygiene and maintenance I mean it's kind of a necessity to to irrigate and put water out you know it's like a la sprinkler system I assume I don't know that much about it but you know it's going to cleanse the the peak rvel to part of the pond that's right it's pea not PE yes correct um it's you know it's meant to cleanse that so there's I don't how you could do that more efficiently well I I I do think so there's still an Enforcement issue we don't know what that is and we're going into we're going into budget season so we should get an idea of what that number is and if we have an idea of what the number is then we can decide if it's something that the uh budget can bear if we need to add a fee to offset or you know completely take care of it I mean that's fine with me if you want to table that the the other thing I just forgot I want to mention was that um we we presume we have a very low number of licensed dogs compared to what how many dogs there probably really are in this town there that I have no real data to quantify that but it just seems like an awfully low number so by having to permit for the park it's going to encourage people to license their dog can't license your dog unless it's properly vaccinated encourages people to vac they can do for free at least for raises maybe not for the other vaccines but right executive for free so there was there was some moving parts to that as well understood uh councilman Williams yeah I had a question um not necessarily with enforcement but just regular regulation um for instance with number two um saying that the dog owners must certify that their homeowners renters insurance has liability coverage how how are we I mean are we already prepared to say that when you come in to get a new dog license that you're going to have to bring a copy of your homeowners insurance is that what we're suggesting if if we are going to allow them to the dog park then yes they would have to show that they have liability insurance because we've had a number of dog attacks thr out the town quite large some serious fet bills yeah uh that is a real thing and you know that is a real thing I am very well aware um and we're going to get sued you know because we're government that's just part of the part of the deal so we're going to be named in that so that to ensure that the dog owner has liability it's not a bad yeah that sounds like necess again whether you charge them the $10 or $20 whatever it is in whether you charge them that or not we can still ensure that they have a liability probably a good practice again how do you enforce this that's the big question it's it's the same thing that's come up with certain ordinance and resolutions that we want to pass that Administration has said to us how do you enforce it you can't do it so how do you enforce this you mean you mean I mean operationally how do you force it or what will it cost but operationally if you have a pass you have you have enfor just like we have somebody that checks our Parks we'd have someone check that and people there would have to have their passes so would you have staff there at all times at the entrance but like we do in our Parks they roam they roam through the parks it wouldn't be you know it wouldn't be intense but it would be there would be a a presence uh of Township presence and so we would be able to do some to do enforcement and people get the idea you know just like anything else how do you 80% shows up 8% of people are gonna if you have to have a pass 80% of the people are gonna have a pass and 20 20% are not and and so you know you do you do enforcement the way we do anything else uh you we can't be everywhere but we have a presence and what we've done at the recycling center is have police officer up there check and uh check ID to make sure that you're a resident using it on a uh you know it's a random basis it's not announced and you know people have to to prove that they live in West Orange the challenge though is that is not the best use for our police um we certainly don't want to have a police officer go to the dog park we don't want to we don't want to add that to the rotation of uh what their responsib we have we have park right Rangers that we director already that that we use you know for to help to do enforcement for non-smoking so this is something else that they perhaps could take on got it so let's I think we do need to kind of think that through a little bit more before we pass it and it's it's opening in May we've got a little bit of time um yeah Mr J keep in mind that this is also a one second sir oh never mind may never mind hold on never mind well even if it is may people have to have an opportunity to get their license so I mean you have to give people at least 30 days um to to obtain a license unless you're going to do them on site at that day and that's a whole different Mr jingar are we or or Mr gross Mr rabbit are we asking folks that have uh the umbrella policy or liability insurance to name the township or are we how how is that that's protecting them that doesn't really protect us no no that's more for um to protect residents to other residents that's all so that if they get we're not asking me not my understanding are we no you're right right I don't think so yeah because that would be a lot right you're gonna have to contact your insurance company and modify policy and of West Orange as an additional insur I don't think so you know I'm not even 250 ft away from neighbors's an there may be an indemnification that when you take and I think that the the way that it was R I'm trying to find it as we speak but I felt the intention was that when they apply for the dog park pass then they would have to um acknowledge and execute a limited live like a limited waiver of liability form so that if they were injured at the dog You released the township releas the township okay absolutely that makes sense that's different that jump in and add to the like even if taking that taking the argument of enforcement to its extreme and saying okay we're never going to be able to enforce it by having this you're still forcing the residents when they first T I guess it's a practical matter if you have if you have dog hard passes you are essentially forcing the residents to come in and fill out all the paperwork to make sure that their dogs are not a dangerous um because there are instances and there are dogs in the township that are licensed as potentially dangerous dogs already at state right and we don't want those dogs gr around the dog park without at least proper precautions if at all so part of the reason for the dog pass in the first place is to ensure that things like that are maintained before they even get to the park so whether or not there's a a quote unquote monetary fee after as the rules and regulations for going into the dog par and what we can sort of enforce by making them get a pass with the thought process I think I think the challenge back to the enforcement part I think the challenge is if if we don't have a way to make sure that everybody has a pass then you don't have a way to make sure that anyone does um and so you know it's kind of a you know 20 catch 202 situation unless you the pass opens the gate into now you're talking about high tech you know now you're talking about for the next person no you can't hop that so the motion failed if you don't inspect it at all people won't respect it that's true okay so so that's why having a process even if it's free having a process gets provides structure that allows us to limit the the and and the LI even the liability we don't want our residents getting hurt right you know we want we want people to to to use these facilities and sensibly and if you if you have a pet which you know like I have a dog and I take it to the vet it's all shots it's licensed etc etc like I take that the dog to a dog park gives me the feeling to know that the other dogs there at least they supposed to be in the same category so until until you've had a tragedy with the dog um and I had two rodes chaos and taboo were their names um and until even um with every protection when they bite all hell breaks loose all hell breaks loose and everybody gets sued and so um I have been sued and he was and you entered the protected area that said do not cross I'll I'll you know all dog signs and you still get sued and you still have to go through the motions and and it feels terrible especially when the person gets hurt very badly um but it's not the dog's fault and it's not even your fault when they violate you know precautions I think we can add you know we table this we can add the boiler plate language that so many of our ordinances have that say basically any Township official can enforce this whether it's the recreation department I think the other concern though was the cost if we if was a cost can we is it is it possible I mean I understand that um I and I'm I'm I I understand the rationale for the small nominal fee I do get that um but I also agree that you know you don't have to charge to go to any of our other Parks I do understand the rationale behind having a pass I I just wouldn't want to see a fee attached to it that's that's my resolution so I mean if if you adopt the ordinance the resolution can reflect right understand pass it's it gives you the starting one so you don't have to do a resolution but then you can change it by resolution all feeds are resolution now yeah I didn't see um do we expect a lot of out of town people to be using this park I may not go to the one in South Orange oh so why not just up it for the Out of Towners so they right everybody has to believe price for the out of to ites the Fe will be set forth by resolution right I didn't see any fees so therefore there was a fee though we I saw $20 yeah 10 for residents 20 for non-residents I don't know I saw but I I think there is I think I think it sets the initial fee yeah but then it talks about changing it by resolution could you tell me uh the section just so I have it I don't see and I'm looking at it right now so saw it the other coordinates the dangerous it might be a version so I saw it too yeah I saw it so I believe where everybody's uh getting maybe a little bit confused is when this was initially proposed at the last Township council meeting if the dangerous dog ordinance and the dog park ordinance were together is one that either failed or I I forget exactly what happened there or it was pulled and so it was broken up into two separate ordinances when it was broken up into two separate and initially there's a chance that it said $10 and $20 in the one that was pulled and or failed in this one though my I don't believe that the dog park pass fees were set by anything other than resolution if I'm sta in um please let me know where and I I've reviewed the entire thing um I don't see anywhere where it has a fee so I I mean I would like for us to pass be set by resolution the uh ordinance and if we want to come back in obviously with this one there has no it has no fees attached to it so on second if this ordinance were to pass on first reading on second reading I would propose a resolution that set forth the fees for this section of the ordinance okay and then based on what you tell me today I can make those amounts X for residents and X Plus whatever for non-residents um so Madam clerk we did not upon your initial ask yes no one made a motion to um no one seconded correct so can we revisit that then yes so can we how do we do that because it it failed well it didn't fail you just asked for it to pass and no one made the motion to pass failed so how do we do it now that we've already moved past that point we're still discussing discussion yeah we're discussing it now no so here's what happened we can try and do it differently if you want to but what happened was a motion was offered no one seconded the clerk acknowledged that there was no second and that the motion failed and then before we moved on we had discussion so we we can we can we can come back to it I'm I'm not opposed to that but it's not that we can just have a second now we have to council president would we make a motion to to resend like we did we didn't we did it's nothing to resend Mr Jenaro what what should we do or or Madam clerk what should we do given the facts that just transpired well certainly a four of you are interested in doing it you can right right of you can I a motion that we reintroduce 2840 that's that okay hold on a minute okay okay councilwoman gber Michael to reintroduce yes councilwoman squ councilwoman Williams yes council president ruford yes okay thank you okay so now do oh no this is first reading first reading yeah right that's first reading 2841 okay so 2841 an ordinance amending chapter 25 sections 4 B 11.14 and part A permitted uses table of District regulations of the revised General ordinances of West Orange fast casual restaurants is there a motion to introduce on first reading so MO is there a second I don't second Council doesn't support it okay all right so there is no second so therefore the motion fails okay and 28 42-24 and ordinance amending chapter 3 sections 8 and 15 of the revised General ordinances West Orange rules of council order of business is there a motion to introduce on first reading no no support gu none okay all right so there is no first or second it fails 2843 an ordinance amending chapter 10 section 2.5 of the revised General ordinances of the township of West Orange to add a fee for a potentially dangerous dog license licensing of dog fees is there a motion to introduce on first reading got a thousand tonight nothing I wish we could have discussion first yeah no you have to you have to move it first yeah um okay so no motion therefore it failed so before we move on so Mr Jenaro the you you mentioned earlier something about the state having a list of potentially dangerous dogs is that the list is that what is that what would be the definition for this potentially dangerous dogs is definition is a definition used by the state and their um dangerous dog statute so essentially what happens is there's dog that fites another dog or another person through different procedures in the municipal court and Superior Court with from the Township's perspective and then from a c man if it goes to the municipal court and we prosecute the matter under the potentially dangerous dog statute and they're found guilty then the dog gets labeled under certain New Jersey statute which I can pull the number four I think it's in the ordinance um and they have to be like red tagged and labeled a dangerous dog what is red tag mean you have to wear red collar red tag well so under the state statute under the state rules if your dog is declared a dangerous dog and every judge is different so they might not enforce all of the different Provisions but if your dog is declared dangerous under the state law they have to be muzzled at all times they have to be tattooed with a red ink which I haven't seen forc yet but is potentially an area that they could do and there are other Provisions where they you know have to be limited in their outdoor activity and can't be around other dogs Sten oh I'm sorry and can't be around other dogs so what this ordinance was um attempting to embody was that in the state statute if your dog is labeled as potentially dangerous the municipality has the ability to charge a higher licensing fee with the township so all this uh ordinance was seeking to do was to embody the state law essentially and allow the town to charge a higher fee for a dog that has already been declared by a competent court of law as potential and the premise is if we have a dog that's highly dangerous um that we're GNA have to spend more time monitoring that that animal you know and we're you know our cost of of doing that should be born by the person who owns the dog not by the general taxpayer so that is the purpose of this ordinance I understand the logic I don't understand based on that definition how we get to determine if it it's a potentially dangerous dog or if it's an actually dangerous dog so potentially dangerous could be any dog because any dog is potentially dangerous in to clarify a dog is potentially dangerous is defined by the state statute and and it's a judge right the judge makes it correct they go through so so you have to have already had an incident yes in order to be declared potentially dangerous yes and so then you're not potentially dangerous you're dangerous it's just the wording of the statute so the Municipal Court sh it states and this is njsa for the record foron 19-23 dog declared potentially dangerous semicolon conditions the Municipal Court shall declare a dog to be potentially dangerous if it finds by clear and convincing evidence that the dog number one cause bodily harm to a person during an unprovoked attack imposes a serious threat serious bodily injury to or death to a person two cause serious bodily injury to another domestic animal or killed another domestic animal and poses a serious threat to a person or poses a serious threat to another animal and a dog shall not be declared potentially dangerous for causing bodily injury to a person if the dog was provoked causing serious bodily injury to or killing another animal if it was the aggressor um and then two other three other exceptions to whether or not the dog but that's all for the Court's determination so that's post incident post incident first incident right so typically how it'll work is if a dog in town bites let's say another dog the animal control officer will come the police will issue a ticket or the Animal control officer forget was the authority and sometimes the dog is removed right and so in initially what'll happen is the animal that's why the Animal control officer is there because the police will come usually they there will be a municipal court order temporarily which says we can remove the dog pursuant to the state law and keep it in um the animal shelter in West Orange until it's adjudicated in Municipal Court once it's adjudicated in Municipal Court then the court makes a determination uh with regard to the dog labels it potent the judge will label it potentially dangerous in which case then they would be subject to the statute if they ever tried to license it again with the township or the judge if you were to add that definition and language to this would that be a substantive change in this I just want to pull up here talk about the the verbiage that's in that's in in the Statue I think you could do that but the problem with that is if the statute changes then you become you know dis you got to update yeah it's a point where you could end up having a legal problem I get it I get it I understand I think the statute is referred to in the it it is or a statute is referred to in here um I just saw it a second ago so when the statute changes at the state level the yeah four 19-31 keep the same statute numers it'll just change the law here we go got one so yeah I I was unclear about this and this um you know I was a little concerned about who gets to determine that it's a potentially dangerous dog and I understand better now it's not the neighbor yeah or or by breed that was my concern X type of dog does not mean that you're automatically dangerous and my dog was it my dog was it's to the dog got it it's to the dog so so I'm happy to revisit this my my colleagues would would anyone like to introduce yeah ASO mov 2843 second oh so you're how many dangerous dogs are there no by in how many are in West Orange one of the courts have to come send it to West Orange Health Department potentially dangerous or dangerous dog I think there's there's at least one maybe two I know of at least one I believe there might be a second I asked I asked earlier at least that I know Department I did okay I was told we know that there's one there may be two was the response we know that there we know there's one there may be two well we have a conviction on one exactly and we have and we have one that we going are pursuing exactly that's correct that's what I was told earlier today because I asked the question okay so who made the motion to introduced okay thank you and the second me thank you okay councilwoman um sorry councilwoman gber Michael Yes councilwoman barpa councilwoman Williams yes council president we the first yes okay okay so we're good when are we going to do public comment on non-agenda items right now and then we will adjourn for ABC okay uh want to thank all of you that oh that's right pending matters new matters that's right um quick question dog park ordinance that was number 284 think 40 did that ordinance pass after it was R okay thank you yes that one was also reintroduced four 40 are you going to do pending matters first or uh yes um I think we should so and then well actually no I'll let these folks go um we can do we can I don't think it'll be terribly long for public comment um for those of you that are in the council chamber and would like to have public comment on items uh that are not on the agenda uh now is uh your opportunity you can have public comment on anything you so choose microphone is yours please do not wait wait for um the microphone to clear before you uh come up you can come up as soon as you're ready it's early tonight right yeah it is get home ear Trend Larry Ryan EC coming Circle um actually the reason I wanted to speak to is for a few reasons um the last few weeks I've actually been out of town and I've been doing all the things on zoom and everything on Zoom but I but I wanted the opportunity to say number one is thank you for again for uh you know passing the anti-Semitism resolution um the Jewish community of West Orange is very very pleased to be able to have that on the record and we also know that you know speaking to the rest of the individuals throughout the communities throughout the United States and I've had this opportunity the last few weeks um is that uh we appreciate that very much other communities are looking at doing the same thing and are trying to you know really you know use us as as an example to show that the anti-Semitism resolution is critical to to to the community so I first that's my first point I want to say thank you very much for for doing that and we really appreciate it and anything we can do to help as well other communities get involved with doing this as well I just want to say thank you and I appreciate that number two is um I know last last Town council meeting was a little crazy I was actually doing it from a a ship a cruise I was doing it on on zoom and listening to it was just horrible um so I do appreciate everything you said tonight about how this can never happen again regardless what the topic is if it's you know Jewish not Jewish political whatever it is it just can't be and I agree with everything you've said tonight is that this is just community on our is just too critical and we need to really be able to support each other and care for each other and love each other and that's what it's all about and I really want to say thank you again for tonight for saying that that I appreciate the fact that we cannot be living in an environment where we having all this hate U I also do appreciate the discussion about how do you really control not having people who don't live in our community talk uh that's that really critical um they shouldn't be allowed to talk and and I know you put you're trying to put things in place to do that as well so anything we can do to help that as well be happy to to contribute that as well the the uh third item uh just to to mention quickly is uh I know that there's um right now in Livingston uh there's a very hot board event meeting going on that uh I know we're listening to uh as well and it's all about education so um I know that if there's anything that we could do from to be able to provide more education to the community we should be doing that uh and we should be taking advantage of that opportunity to do that as well um because really is we all we all need to be educated more about what's going on and to be able to talk to each other I was even saying before is that you know there's no reason why we should be having conversations across the table anybody about any topic I'm willing to have any conversation with anybody on any Topic in the community and and and I appreciate that so I I keep wanting to encourage education and also encourage um opportunities for a discussion that's what it's really all about so um that's really want what I wanted to say tonight um and I know that uh it's been a little crazy and difficult and my my believe my last message is sitting back and listening to all the things that we're doing West Orange they're great I mean the things we're talking about tonight are great right even though I some of things sound crazy to me like the dog park I don't I don't have a dog so do it's not important to me but it's important to other people in the community um and I just want to say that we should be focused on our community that's what we're here for we be focused on our community you know we can't make major decisions for interational discussions uh you know of any kind we're here to work on West Orange let's stay focused on West Orange we love West Orange we want West Orange will be the best place to live let's not worry about the rest of the world we need to worry about us um and that's what we should be doing and caring and loving about ourselves so um that's really my message for this evening and thank you for letting me speak toward the end and I appreciate that thank you thank you Mr Ryan uh anyone else hi um Jen hardell blue violet Grove 76 Ashlin um I just have my notes on my phone so I'm just um I just wanted to you know remind the Council about the uh taking advantage of the the site tour I know that the distance is a little far but I just want to remind everybody that most of these facilities um are pretty uh strict about who they let in um so the fact that there is a facility that is willing to give a tour um it's pretty it's it's pretty huge um and I think that even if you're not a fan of uh cannabis or maybe it's a little foreign about what cultivation or manufacturing is it's also probably a great learning experience just to take advantage and and take the hour ride to go check it out um it's pretty impressive to tour one of these facilities and see um how the operation is put together um you know in many different facets so I do encourage everybody to take advantage to go see this this operation um secondly I also wanted to um mention that you know if if there's any other areas that people have questions about um as far as uh the Cannabis business is for cultivation or manufacturing is concerned and you know I can also provide um access to uh experts in the areas of architecture Engineers um highly ranked security officers um as well and I also can facilitate a meeting with um the president of the New Jersey cannabis Association who's also is very knowledgeable and willing to sit and have a meeting um and answer any questions that anybody may have to learn and educate themselves more on on on this business um and lastly you know my request is is is similar to if you've heard before I'm here to request um a vote to to lift the moratorium for cultivators and manufacturers um you know if if if this is if this request is granted and um businesses like myself can move forward which I'm fully you know prepared to do I have a signed lease I'm fully funded um I have licenses from the state and within one year of operations I can bring up to $500,000 of tax revenue to the town of West Orange $500,000 seems like that could go a far away based on sitting here in these meetings you know week after week month after month I see and I'm learning a lot about this town and a lot of areas that really could use those tax dollars that's a lot of police vests it's a lot of fir Fighters outfits it's fixing municipal courts Parks everything that I hear here that everybody is asking to do this is a free check um that could be handed to the city every year to help improve lots of areas um so you know just if you have any questions um would like me to facilitate any kind of meetings I'm here and I just wanted to give everybody a reminder of that so thank you thank you hello everyone nice to see y all niia Gibbs treatman Avenue in Orange CEO of pure natural Vibes coming near you um so I wanted to give an update um as we're might as well take this segue here uh so we are probably like 85% with our construction um we have completed and submitted our application for local license I will get you your copy Mr gross um so that should be circulating pretty soon we are very very very excited that we are finally coming full circle and we're very appreciative of the time it took the nights the hours The Sweat The Tears the frustration so we're all coming full circle and I just wanted to really sincerely thank you guys for even opening up a process so it it it goes back to zoom calls you know figuring out the distance and all of that stuff like it it all came full circle we're still here we're still talking about it um but as for me as an update we're here definitely um the beginning of Q2 for sure and I look forward to answering any questions that you guys may have about the application um fully approved for the annual from the town from the state we invited Chief Abbot to the site for just a quick security tour um extension is open to anyone else that's available to pop up the hill just right up the hill and uh you know just walk around it's we at a safe space in the construction so we could walk around and have some conversation if needed but thank you it's really appreciate it thank you thank you Miss Gibbs Rachel K how Drive sorry about before okay um so um just in terms of the tree ordinance and the potential development of the Wessex Highlands it it might not be a great idea to wait to see what happens with that to pass a tree ordinance because they're still at the state level where they haven't been approved yet and it could take months to years because there's there are a lot of issues with the land and if we wait we could continue to see our tree canopy denuded and that just seems like it might be a mistake just with where things are going you know being in the thick of the fight I don't see this development starting you know for at least a year or more so I I would kind of I i' implore the council not to necessarily wait on that as a reason not to um go over this ordinance um as for potentially uh dangerous dogs I when I was 5 years old was attacked by a labrador that was uh labeled as a potentially dangerous dog in this very Town um so don't worry about breed there's no breed rules about it and um like Mr Ryan said I think it's great to uh hear Town issues in town council chambers and um hopefully we can begin to mend uh the fractures that you um council president brought up and um you know go from there thank you thank you Miss Miss Klein uh anyone else seeing none public comment is now closed um all right um so we are at new business pending matter was that do you want to give me sponsor that you can would you like to council colleagues would you like to respond to public comment counc colleagues I mean those are issues that gonna be a new business but you can no I just I I wanted to uh reply to miss client regarding the treat ordinance we didn't have a choice we had to uh yeah yeah mention yeah um hopefully in the next meeting we can have something on there um because totally in support with what you're saying so all right that's it anyone else colleagues no do want to thank uh each person for for public comment um those items actually are gonna come up in uh pending matters and new business uh I mean yeah pending matters new matters and Council discussion uh so I think the first thing we need to discuss is public comment um I want to just put um I want to just forward a couple of ideas to um begin our discussion about what some of these changes can be and I'm I'm happy to you know hear what my colleagues um have to say as well so um first thing I think we need and and this has been circulated and just it would have been rushed I don't think we need to rush it um I've sent around some information regarding Free Speech hate speech bias and harassment training uh the the request that I God bless you the request that I have is twofold uh first I would like us to undergo a formal training by a constitutional scholar who is an expert on those matters um and can give us um uh not just the background but some specific tools that we can use um not just for me as council president but for whoever the next council president is and and obviously I would think it would be a good good training for us uh just as council members one of the challenges we've had or at least I've had is that there hasn't been much training um this isn't a criticism of anybody it's just a part of the way we do this job so um it is a part-time job it is a full-time responsibility um and we've seen recently what um that kind of damage can be in our meetings or destruction so I would like to schedule um a training for us and anyone from the administration or other parts of town are well welcome to participate it can be done via Zoom um so that we have a better understanding of where those lines are last thing I'll say before I look for feedback uh is um when I did shut down public comment in our last council meeting I did so in some cases not because I thought it actually crossed the line into hate speech uh I did so because it was offensive and um I recognized in that moment that offensive speech is still protected as free speech uh but my thinking was and I didn't have time to communicate this with anybody my thinking was our rules for theorum allowed me to um police offensive speech now I am also aware that other town councils have tried to do that and been challenged and some have been challenged legally um it was so bad last week or two weeks ago that I was willing to take that chance and so far we haven't been sued and I hope we don't get sued uh but I do think we need the tools to better understand where that line is and what our rights and responsibilities are as council members um if we are to go forward with it it will cost we can put a not to exceed 2500 I think was the number uh that we could get it done for and would like to know what your thoughts are I'm supportive is anyone not supportive I kind of I kind of talked to the chief a little bit about this and I thought perhaps we could find someone who could do it you know or who wouldn't charge us for it it seems like it's you know an unnecessary expense given the budgetary issues that we have and you know most of us should be able to realize hate speech and that's what we have our lawyer for we have a lawyer sitting here who when we're confused should be able to advise us well in real time two weeks ago that didn't happen so are you willing to take a chance and try and learn again in real time I'd like to see if there's you know an organization that would do it you know have you found anything Chief I I asked M to check with our insurance area to see if they provide something train like that great the the league of municipality also might be someone they have a workshop that was circulated to each of us at a cost of $200 that talks about what our roles and responsibilities are that's coming up um is that the email you talk about today the one from today no this was circulated by man of clerk last week I did reach out to the league lawyer as well and he's going to get back to me and advise if there's anything else I just want to know who's doing it and you know at what cost if we can get somebody to do it for you know or less one last free I think you know I'd like to spend no money no money for this kind of thing yeah but there is the the training that Madam clerk sent out that's $200 for each of us to so um I hear you guys let me let me let me just ask a question did either of you respond to those emails that were sent regarding this I don't did I miss the response did I miss the suggestion about that I didn't see it we've been flooded with all those Robo emails Robo emails yeah so here here's my challenge with that and I I think we're playing with fire um we are going to be Penny Penny wise and pound foolish um we were able to find someone that came recommended from the Garden State Bar Association I circulated both the firm information and the resume of the individual we which included all of the credentials this is an individual I have no personal connection to did not know this person before I still don't know this person I've only spoken to her one time um but she has all of the credentials to be an expert on free speech and hate speech has done these trainings before is a partner in her firm well respected that information was circulated if there was some push back on the 2500 like let's not wait till we get to the council meeting to do the push back councilman yes um I just want to remind you that even when you send us those Communications those conversations should happen in public they should not happen via email they should happen in the public forum so that our voices are heard and the public understands our sentiment we're not suggesting that that's not going to happen at this particular Point what we indicated is that we wanted to see if there were other op options that are available that have no cost associated with them and then I brought up an an alternative training opportunity that costs less so all we're suggesting is that and no one is saying we're not willing to spend the money we just want to make sure that that's our only option $2500 is $2500 and if there's an opportunity for someone to come in who is an expert at no cost then why wouldn't we explore that and one one second let me respond to that please uh councilwoman um so you could have easily just said that in an email I don't have to you can I I listened to you just a moment ago and we are what what I'm hopeful councilwoman Williams we can do is model the behavior we want seen in this town so please show me the respect that I'm showing you now this is this we just got so I will tell you I think the response to that horrific incident warrants a training I think it warrants much more than that I think um waiting and trying to figure out when or how or whatever else we can do to address the issue um doesn't show the seriousness um that that issue deserves we have in our inbox right now hundreds of email from residents in town who who are hurt we have other phone calls and text messages from residents in town who are hurt and our response should not be or at least I don't think our response should be to put it off to try and find a uh a training program that each of us can go and register ourselves um when we can get it done right rather quickly um and for what I consider to be a relatively low cost and and the last thing I will say on that is um this argument that it should not be done by email the exact same things so so if that's the case we can't email each other during the week on any issue we can't debate any issue we can't weigh in on any issue uh via email um if that is the if that is the position because we do have to and we do send email back and 4th we do not violate open public meetings act that is we we send email back and forth all the time so we've taken votes by email I just took a vote from the insurance commission by email we've taken votes on resolutions by email so and that is not what I'm asking here what I asked for was feedback and this is not the first time I've asked for feedback and gotten none from either of you two and I'm disappointed by that I I responded to the chief to look for something right but but okay so the the point I'm making is I think it's a serious issue we have an opportunity to address it the person is well respected you can choose not to and if you do God bless you um I will pray that this doesn't happen again and if it does happen again though I will remind everyone that we had an opportunity to improve our skill set and it was ignored I don't feel this is imminent I I think think we could research and see other people who can do this perhaps at no cost and I feel pretty comfortable to identify hate speech when I see it that's very interesting um that's very interesting all right um you had something else you wanted to add no okay all right so uh councilwoman will uh celino uh who is supportive who I did speak today uh is not here to vote it it appears that you two do not want to do the the training unless I'm misunderstanding you you don't want to do the TR time I'd rather look at other op all right is that your position Council I'm not interested right now all right great so second item man I I am very impressed by that and I hope the township is too I I really hope everybody's paying attention we do have to solve problems and it requires a certain level of leadership and compassion in order to do it and and I'm disappointed because that does not show it second thing I wanted that same person uh which was included in that proposal that was circulated that got no uh responses back um to do a presentation to the public on the line between free speech and hate speech um as you all are aware there are many people in town who are confused whether you think you know it or not there are people in town who are confused about where that line is and I think it is important for residents to know um where that line is but since we've already decided that there's not enough support to do it we won't is it not possible to get someone to come in doing the conference agenda and do a a presentation be done I think that's exactly where it should be done during the conference agenda did you read the did you read the email everyone can did you read the email I sent did you read I remember I did but probably quickly well it was was in the email and it made that exact recommendation at a cost but we I'm sure we could find somebody that you know going to charge us all right so find somebody and in the meantime if it happens again I'm going to remind us right I'm gonna remind us yeah that that was the sentiment that it was not important enough to handle with urgency did anyone else register for the workshop no no not at this time now okay I did I yes you did I did you did so I think I'm serious about education I think you are serious about politics yes that is correct any my my next recommendation was that we cancel public comment on Zoom permanently and what I said in the email was that if a future Town Council wants to reinstate it they can um it's my understanding and I would like Mr Jenaro to weigh in uh that it is not a requirement and that Zoom itself is not a requirement that we are not under any obligation to have zoom at all um and so we are not under any obligation to have public comment from Zoom we like to hear what my colleagues think about that didn't we already vote to suspend public comment from zoom in the beginning the meeting and it was done for indefinitely that was the motion that councilwoman gab Michael made and I seconded I think the motion I made was to have public comment um have two sessions one is for agenda items only and then the other one was for um right regular public comment but had nothing to do with the zooms so right I I would definitely support not having public comment via zoom and I think it's already been communicated To Us by our legal um Department that there is no oblig for us to do either Zoom or for us to do public comment doing zoom and that was circulated in writing to each of us correct but the public don't know that so no I'm just I'm I'm I'm stating it that that that is correct yes it was just state it and I would agree with the administration if that's the policy that they want to promote so Mr Jenaro to take that further um since we will not have public comment by Zoom for those that cannot be here person my recommendation was that we in um instill a a deadline for when they could submit public comment either in writing to the clerk or to the Town Council so that there would be some time for the clerk and the legal department and for us to determine what is appropriate or not to read into the record um yeah during the town council meeting is that is there some is there some legal concern or issue with that Madam clerk you I have a concern that's a burden on the clerk I well yeah not only that but I you know you have a um an issue as we have seen in the last couple of months um regarding October 7th and you have people joining the zoom meeting you have people coming in person and stating and everything so what's the difference if they're doing that on Zoom as opposed to sending you know 200 emails that I have to review and go through and I mean it's not you're basically it's it's the same thing if if I'm getting emails and I have to make a judgment call and then what am I going to just sit here and read all the emails take up ex so do we not take public comment via email because we do that now don't we no well no you don't it's not it's not an official part it's not an official part of public comment though I mean it is official document it's a public document it's all sent to you it's it's it's it's maintained but it is not attached to the meeting in any way so they'll write in and give you their opinions on certain things like for instance we we got one this evening but it wasn't something read into the record or anything like that so so if people have questions and they cannot get here how do they get those questions to us via public comment if if they can't get here they just po why does it have to be via public comment why can't they send an email to the council asking questions and then we can discuss response yeah if somebody sends up a question that they have or a concern bring it up during our comment public comment has two aspects right one of the aspects is to make a comment to to tell the council what's on their mind what they think about a particular issue whatever that may be the second aspect is to ask a question something they're looking for information on so sending to the council accomplishes both of those things um the council can individually or collectively through the chair answer answer questions in you know to those people um and and the council if if they send it to the council then the council hears all the information again the only thing is it's not it's not as it's not attached to the record of the meeting that's that's the only difference really is there the possibility for someone to make the type of request if we were to not have that process and someone emailed us and said I want this read into the record and responded to isn't that usually something that you've done before I I mean there were some times that I was asked to read something into the record infrequently but very problem is if if you make if you make that part of the process it will become UNT yeah it will and and you'll be you'll be it'll be like Congress like C-SPAN right you'd be sitting there all night long reading into the records I just I I just think that you need to come into town Council and speak or you need to communicate to us via email or phone like they everyone has been doing it anyway and I feel very comfortable to say to Residents if you really want to something discussed let me know and I will bring it up and discuss it and if you want me to you know add your name to it I will if not I'll just say this is something that brought up there there's definitely a value to people watching and seeing the interaction between the council and and and individuals but at the end of the day the objective is to get information to the council so the council can make better decisions understanding the mindset of the public and and the email process satisfies that thank you Mr Jenaro are you in receipt of the same email I've been referencing uh with my colleagues that was sent on Friday February 16 we am yes did you respond to that did I respond to it personally no I not did anyone from The trink Firm respond to it I don't have a response not aware I don't have a response um and so again um if I send you an email Mr Jenaro that requests a response there is a request in here I'll read it into the record if you like me to I do expect a response I think I think I think part of our challenge now when I say I think we got to model the right Behavior there are some issues that I think think politics have to be removed from and I'm not speaking directly to you Mr Jenaro so please don't take this as a direct comment to you it's not we have to understand that there are issues that can quickly get out of hand and this is one of them and so if a request is made of my colleagues to weigh in just as if you re make a request of me I think you should expect me to respond other differently composed councils have done exactly that we have responded to each other directly as to not violate opma and I think that's required so that we don't get to A Moment Like This in and then have to have this kind of time dedicated to something that could have been handled in an email all right the last thing or the next thing so I I I thank you for that correction I did address this this email that I sent on Friday the 16 352 was addressed to uh the clerk and the councel and the council included the mayor and the uh ba and the CFO and some other people from the administration and my title was good afternoon all and in this I did speak to um the legal department directly um so I have a question Mr Jenaro about our ability to protect public commenters who are concerned about giving their name and address um what we required tonight was that they give name and address my question is if we if if we if we were to require that um and in spite of the fact that some people may feel unsafe and they gave their name and address to comply with our rule could we bleep out the address and or the name when we posted it to YouTube there's a question legally and then there's a question practically from Mr Fagan if that even possible you know some folks want to tell us things and there was at least one in here tonight that I believe would have addressed us um had the requirement not been to give name and address uh so I'm I'm trying to understand what if anything we can do to protect public commenters from um you know someone seeing this post on YouTube and then doing something stupid from a legal standpoint I don't see any issue with it I don't know that from practical standpoint and I can obviously look do it a little bit more understand that was part of your email here so I do see that okay so I can happy to address it right now um as to the second part um where you talked about uh whether or not the I guess there's a practical concern with all of this and that is how do we verify so in other words I stand up in front and I say my name is John Smith at 123 Main Street I got five minutes that means everybody's got five minutes to verify if I'm John Smith from 123 Main Street so are we gonna have somebody who's going to be sitting there verifying everybody's name and address if it's wrong are we going to stop them in the middle of it so I don't think it's as simple as yes or no especially with the Practical concern of okay if what's to stop me from just saying I'm sad no I get it and we we had this discussion amongst ourselves we have no way of knowing if people give us an accurate name name and address unless we actually know them sure um I I think the logistical issue is how much labor is it going to do you know what from a technical point of view what do we have to do in order to do that from uh from the the actual um as long as we maintain the originals for for purposes of official uses um we can as long as we disclose it we we we certainly could do it I don't I mean I don't I don't see that as being a legal issue uh as as Council said I think it is um strictly of figuring out how do we do it how long does it take us to get it done well that was the other question because down Post in two days right or generally speaking well we try yeah we try you know usually by Thursday I I usually have it up the next day the most practical approach to it would be it could be done in post- production and editing but it's a very timec consuming process because you have to separate the video track from the audio track oh the most easiest way to do it would be when a public speaker comes up to the podium to Simply have fill them a name address on a card have a sign in sheet or sign in sheet but just have an index card that they can fill out their name and address and hand it to mam clerk that way they don't have to say anything I think there's places where they do that I think of the county you have to sign in and and somebody said Livingston has residents speak first well there's ID Pro and what about resents who don't have IDs become AAL there are people who don't have licenses make exceptions if you probably need to think hold on you probably need to think about to what end like what does it really tell you oh anyway the ordinance requires it I I understand question is I mean you have to decide what what what meaning it has now it may you may want to know whether somebody lives in a town or town it serves a good purpose I don't want people coming here making up names and you know from out of town but but they you can't legal's already aine you cannot stop people from out of town but can West Orange residents go first that's a get priority I think they do in Livingston someone said I don't know so just for the record I want I want because that is something that we've discussed I don't know that it's been said uh in a council meeting um and it was asked tonight can we limit out a non West Orange resident from speaking in public com so that's why we don't do it for those that want to know that's why we don't because we can't we cannot tell nonresidents they cannot address us but we could put them at the end OFW that's state law that's not that's not local ordinance that is the the state statutes say that that that anyone can come and speak at at a meeting they have sing now now whether whether you have rules that says that that a resident speaks first or not I think there are some towns that do that so what if we get a a houseless person right that comes and I'm just saying right now you're talking about IDs what if people don't have IDs you don't know what the circumstances if someone doesn't have an ID how do you prove that they live there I really don't think we're gonna have a much easier time enforcing the dog park we will enforcing so like come on I think we're overthinking this I think I think we made I against the ordinance to to take out the requirement for a name and address if I like that re I want to know who I want to know who they are right but the what the reason you still have to let them speak so that's all right but most people will know who they are well the so we know who some of them are I called some of them by name tonight right but we don't know who some of them are and so they can say they're to M's point I mean I'd rather have them 8 95% of the people are gonna tell you the truth that's right most people are gonna tell if they don't tell you they don't tell you yeah it's not a big deal requ from acting option okay all right so it is it is um and then and then for those that don't want to speak out of fear what do we do for them well can I just in yes so if for me from a common sense point of view if a person is that afraid to give their name and address at public comment I should email you if I was that afraid I would not be showing up at a public meeting I would be sending an email privately to the council that's right if you're that afraid yeah just let that's who I that's how I would do it like I if I'm afraid to come here in public and have people see me or fear of the you know retribution after my comments or whatever and I didn't want to give my name and address I just wouldn't come to the meeting I I would send an email and and let my I I do understand voice be heard that way so but for those that want to weigh in on the issue in public comment right because this is what we're dealing with is what has happened as a result of this series events that series of events that started October 7th right so folks want to weigh in they have some concern how do they weigh in they just they don't weigh in they email us they can email they can pick up the phone um but not in public comment well they can and if we're not requiring them to give the name and address I think that gets back to the G I think you need to reinforce during this process if you're not here send us just like we've been doing but you reinforce getting an email to us is just as good as being here you know I think you you you you you build up the confidence that that email works we read all of our emails Council coun I don't Adam clerk could say do you care to state your name and address for the record because again if they say I'm not saying it where they give you a fictitious name they still get their five minutes so I don't know why the ordinance is requiring something or or if the ordinance convers if the ORD is going to require then we should open with them and they shouldn't be allowed to speak if they're afraid to give you know we tell them no I think that's we change it or we enforce are are you getting are you all getting a lot of people telling you that they're not that they're not coming to the meetings or they're not no they're not because I have heard from several people that wanted to weigh in in public comment um but don't want to um face what could be potential backlash for their comment so they've spoken directly to me okay hey you know this is how I feel about that issue and there are a lot of people that feel this way they're just not going to say there's a a separate group that has a different concern and that concern is I've already been harassed or targeted in one way or another I don't want to give my address to make it easier for those people that are already bothering me and and I've gotten some of that too and I think my colleagues have as well um and I've gotten enough of that to where I could tell you that is a real concern for a number of people and and that's really what I'm getting at I don't I think part of our challenge is um we don't have good debate and part of the reason we don't have good debate is people are afraid uh I go back to the beginning if somebody comes to the microphone and says I'm not gonna tell you are you not gonna listen to them are you gonna tell them to sit down you're not let them be the exception let them if in other words we should ask them everybody should be treated the same ask for the same information if somebody says I don't want to give you my address okay all right all right so I I do think though if we're going to do that which is I I'm not opposed to that right I'm not opposed to that I think though we are going to do that then our ordinance should reflect that because we're in violation of our ordinance we are the ones that make the rules and we're saying we're not going to honor our own rules um so the ordinance requires keep the ordinance name and address for public comment that's what the ordinance requires today okay so then that's what we should stick with if but the ordinance doesn't tell you what to do if they don't give you the address correct and you're not gonna you're not goingon to ask the officer to escort them I'm not I haven't I would sou l move on so let's move on and if it's we have a few exceptions we tolerate it it's more important to know who people are what they stand for and let them stand up for what they believe in wow I don't okay um I am very impressed tonight uh the last thing that I wanted to discuss was uh the time um as you will recall several weeks ago um we had two c members that wanted to keep public comment to five minutes we had two that wanted to AB Bridge it to three uh I recommended that we compromise and bring it to four councilwoman celino supported that it failed uh I want to know if you would be willing to abridge public comment to four minutes tonight absolutely not I don't think we're going to continue to have these problems if we have our new procedures in place and if people have to show up and as we Chang single and as we saw Paul tractenberg tonight try to talk intelligently and substantively about an issue he did not really even with the five minutes really didn't have enough to finish his comment which would needed to be heard there were a lot of people who don't understand anything about the trees or and what he was talking about and he was educating the public and I think that's important this is the one time that the public has to learn about what goes on in their government and five minutes is is definitely needed one second Chief you said with our new procedures what new procedures yeah with the new procedure of having no no comment on zoom and just having people come look how many people came and they all left I mean if people have to come they they're not going to wait until the end of the if it's not about the agenda they're not going to wait till 11 o'clock and hang around they all left true Chief so I mean you you could split the baby here and and say that change the ordinance to say that by majority vote at the start of every council meeting you'll decide how many minutes is public ominous absolutely no and have a range but you could you can have anything you could tell you can make it 15 I mean five is an arbitrary number you have to accept that I think we should stick to the five I think it's critical that we get that we stick make it 15 make it 20 you can make it whatever you want I think I I think the the benefit to what the chief is suggesting is if you have a room full of you know you got 80 people here we're gonna talk about the same thing the same thing but but that's the point is when that occurs I think then you could say okay we're gonna go down to three minutes because should encourage so we can get everybody in tonight we're gonna instead of everybody having five minutes we're gonna go down to three and and so you you I'm not I'm just saying that's the benefit of it you make consistent I think councilwoman Scara is right if if we have meetings like we have tonight You' probably never exercise it except I think if you're gonna have two different sessions I think you look what happened tonight this doesn't usually happened somebody came one second Council one second Council does that change require a vote from the council or is that a council president it would be an ordinance change well an ordinance change or whatever so we would have to revisit the ordinance and make that change correct because as it's written in the ordinance it provides minutes minutes absolutely all right so um so Mr Jenaro if you don't mind or Madam clerk whoever the appropriate person is please uh circulate the ordinance to us um and if there are any changes that are to be recommended um we can we can do that work between now and the next meeting and and then be clear on what those recommendations are and if there are some then we can go through the normal process to have it added to the agenda and just to be clear circulate the one as it's written now circulate currently I just want to go on the record of saying you know the public is weighed on this many many times and they've and they've wanted to keep the comment to five minutes and I all we need to do is ask them to please be brief and not to be redundant I we saw it here tonight people were very respectful and they they had things to say that other people had already said and they kept the commentary brief I think we should try that first and see if there's a problem so councilwoman at the last council meeting and the one before that that had to be continued to a second meeting that was unscheduled I asked that exactly that was unusual that not our Ty for a moment please I asked that that directly um some tried to say that I was cutting public comment I wasn't what I was doing was asking people to please not repeat what other folks have said be mindful that we're going to have to get out of here at sometime we got a business to do right and we still ended up having five hours of public comments suspending the meeting and then having the meeting again on a separate night and then the second time going through what we went through so asking people to do that doesn't work we have two examples of it we don't know that can I see examp I think that we should leave public comment just the way it is five minutes I don't think we should make any changes to the ordinance uh I think we need to just remain consistent I do agree with having a public hopic for agenda items only as I mentioned earlier so that way if we do have a meeting with many people who want to comment on things that are not agenda item related the administration as you guys mentioned can choose leave if they want so you're not here till 2 3 o'clock in the morning and we don't start actual business after midnight so I I I juste okay can we move on so Mr jingar please still circulate if there are um if there are some changes to be recommended we can I will do that if there's anything else from your email from this past Friday that I that you need me to address have me address and just for the record and Future there's any for an email like that and you don't think that I've responded send me another one say Hey FYI FYI or call me anything I'm Happ respond I think that you got it brother try to be one of the most responsive people so I I do apologize if that thank you very much Mr yeah so we do have uh other we have a few other issues that at least that I have um uh so we did Free Speech we did the public comment uh the Cannabis tours so um councilwoman calino uh commented on the distance it may not it may not be feasible for everybody um Saturdays are an option so am I understand Council woman so Saturday's work for me unfortunately I'm not available during week um especially during the day between work and then evenings with Mom life and also westons related matters um but on the topic of cannabis instead of waiting for the tour for those who can't make it or don't want to travel far I still think we should schedule a workshop just to start discussions um in in in the meantime because I think that it's been months now and we're wasting my opinion wasting time you know I think we should lift the moratorium especially on cultivation because we're missing out on money that we so desperately need in this town Revenue um my understanding is that Bloomfield Township and chief correct me if I'm wrong off of one of their entities made about $800,000 in Revenue so every month that we're delaying a new business where you know they're not I mean we're just Town revenue and um I think it's a disadvantage for the township and Community I thought the um disposition of the council was that they wanted to do the tour first but the majority yeah um colleagues thoughts I will my request was and I thought we all agreed based on majority vote was that we were going to do the tour and then once we had the tours we would come back and discuss so and my availability was not through Monday through Friday Friday only Saturdays okay carp transportation is going to be provided you don't have to carpol yeah just have to get to town hall all right so I will uh work with um Mr cachado to find a Saturday um as soon as possible and I'll circulate those days that are available uh you are not available on Saturday Council no all right so um it's tough with this schedule since since you really can't have three of you together you need multiple tours anyway so but then you got to arrange transportation twice listen if we do a weekend tour and only my one colleague is available I can drive I don't need Transportation I don't mind driving and at all so you don't have to worry about that well my point is you're gonna need to do three tours right anyway right so you really can do anything you want so so councilwoman Williams you are available during the week you're not available on Friday I'm not available on Saturday and uh my other colleagues are available on Saturdays only I think councilwoman celino would prefer a Saturday uh I will circulate uh dates uh via email tomorrow um and what I will do is um try and remove uh the hurdles from actually scheduling it so that you can uh if you don't want to go with a larger group you can go by yourself um all right next thing um I last year reached out to the state of New Jersey to conduct a forensic audit for us Mr gross I'm sure you're aware of the headlines that I'm calling you out by name um I've spoken with um our ba have not spoken with our mayor I sent a message I was not responded to um I found that article to be alarming to say the least um I think we do need our own forensic audit uh the state would not uh grant that request last year they had their reasoning for it um so I want to gauge the appetite of my colleagues to um have a forensic audit um I received a lot of feedback from residents who also want us to do a friend audit so I'm in support of that um at least their minds um so um I'm definitely in support of a friends C it I would be in support of that councilman Williams um I would like to know what the cost would be I think that's um going to be important I don't know I have no idea what a forensic audit cost it's a lot so I I I think Cost needs to be factored in before we make a decision What will what we will what are how do we do that as a council um is that something how how is that under our investigative investigative or investigatory power like how do we do that is it majority or super majority it definitely is in the ordinance I've read it probably super right because you're adding money to the budget somehow there's a lot of moving parts of this because there's a legal question you do have investigatory Powers over different departments so you want to you want to doing what on a um finance department I mean the administration welcomes this I want to be clear and candid we have no objection to it whatsoever um would it would have to be funded and we're going after for an RFP anyway on uh on a uh an auditor because the last one was knocked down so I mean that can be their first order of business they're going to give you an hourly rate you're just going to have to put you know don't put a not to exceed in because we don't know what this is going to cost I second to conc CL probably something you'd want to add in there can we find out from from do how much they spent because they're much smaller town than we are they actually didn't do it for they didn't do it about it it's if you read the article it's very very political the mayor lost the election the new mayor came in if you look at our shared service agreement which I have here and I can forward to you Mr gross was supposed to supervise the finances of do it's a shared service he was not supposed to do the work he was supposed to oversee it lot of things in new article my understanding are accurate that the things that they were the mayor was supposed to do did not do mayor Dow came back ran for election once again one brought his audit team back in who was there forever and got kicked out when the mayor that beat out came in and normally Professional Services stay out of the Fright you didn't see that here they got right into into the dirt with it but be it um all right so you're saying so if through our normal process now in securing an auditor we're going out to an RFP anyway or RFQ or RFP RQ yeah going out to an RFQ for an auditor and we will and in that RFQ we're going to request that they be able to that they conduct a forensic audit for us I think we show someone independendent who isn't hired by the town yeah the ship who's technically their boss to do work to do the audit I think it needs to be someone forensic audit AB that's yeah I I I've never had a forensic audit in any organization done by the auditing firm that's auditing doesn't make sense yeah so for a forensic audit if we that's why I think it's important for us to identify what type of audit we really want and the cost that's going to be associated with this I think it's clear that we all want to make sure that that our financial houses in order but I think there's just you know some additional um information that comes with before we contract that but but certainly but certainly it should be done by a independent third party not someone that's going to be our auditing company or firm yeah so so um we could get how do we figure this out can how do we how do we do it yeah does anyone know how what is this step for us to go through to gu wouldn't we and under our investigatory Powers we're able to select the person we want to award that to or how do we choose who will do it to know that it's an actual independent person well that's GNA be an a legal question well whether whether whether you get to select the mayor puts them up that I don't know top my head do and get back to you on that before the end of the week this week just because I know that this is going to be a time frunch of process but I don't know the answer off the top of my head so I don't want to correct okay so yeah we want to know Mr jingar just for clarity what are the steps we as a council have to go through in order to First identify who can do the forensic order and we'd like to be able to choose if that's possible and then to execute with them um yeah that's something I can absolutely look into with the law department and get your response on hopefully before the end of the week but I understand the time is obviously sensitive with regard of this and I look do it first anymore thank you very much Mr jaro I want to thank you Mr abbit and the mayor for being supportive of this effort um this is not and I want to say this publicly Mr gross this is not to accuse you of anything um this is not an accusation this is not an accusation of anyone in the finance department uh or anyone uh that works in town hall uh or that has worked in town hall um you know I had my reasons last year but but my reasons now are uh we don't know and we need to know I prior to that um auditor presenting during he came in on Zoom as you may recall and was compl completely unable to effectively answer direct questions had to be directed by myself to uh pages in the audit that spoke to certain things uh was completely unprepared which is why we did not renew their contract this year um that leaving out critical information and then claiming not to have a paper trail for any of those conversations um I think requires a further look um so this is not accusatory but it is to certainly make sure that we have a clear understanding of where we are U financially and what you know what kind of status that we're in um so I did want to say that I'm not accusing you and I wanted I'm I'm saying that sincerely and I wanted to put that on the record um all right anything else in pending matters new matters Council discussion and move for us to J to the ABC he second second well favor any opposed motion's carried I move that we open ABC here second good night West Orange thank you yes sir Mr Fagan great job you can take the zoom down good night West Orange those yeah still here with us our next meeting is on March