a [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] live good evening everyone uh joining us in person and those of you joining us virtually uh thank you for coming out to tonight's uh Thursday June 27th budget Workshop uh we are going to get started right away uh um I for those of you that um don't know councilwoman gbra Michael had a prior commitment uh she will be joining us virtually she's on now uh she is joining us virtually to participate in the uh budget Workshop she's just not here in person uh Madam clerk yes this is to inform the general public that this Workshop is being held in compliance with Section Five of the open public meetings act chapter 231 Public Law 1975 this notice for this Workshop was emailed to the West Orange Chronicle and the Star Ledger on June 17th 2024 councilwoman castelino present councilwoman gber Michael is she on as a she is on yes councilwoman can you hear us yes I can hear you I'm present thank you okay thank you councilwoman scorpa present councilwoman Williams present council president Rutherford here will everyone please rise for the Pledge of Allegiance IED Al to United States of America to the stands andice for the council is now in their budget Workshop uh thank you madam clerk um Mr gross um we're just going to pick up where we left off I I see uh director Kio is here uh if there's any commentary you'd like to give us before we go into uh Mr kio's portion of the budget and uh if you would be so kind as to direct us to which page we are on um uh each time we're dealing with a different uh Department 107 107 I I have no other than to introduce uh Mr K he is our director of a recreation program well established well known by many people so turn it over to him I get you page 9 108 108 107 yeah it's kind of like flip flocked a little bit got it well thank you Mr keio for coming um if You' give us an overview of your budget and highlight any changes that are uh in there that you want to draw attention to um uh and any particular uh issues you want to advocate for well um why don't we just go through Section by section would simply that way yep if you follow the the piece of paper that I sent there to you orange one those are the things where we're having snags and need a little bit of help you know we we we pride ourselves on being uh you know solid fiscal managers of our department we're not frivolous we are cheap to a fault um there is a climate out there with food beverage and fees and things like that beyond our control and some of these things um necessitate some adjustments uh for us to continue to deliver the same services that the community is uh grown accustomed to on on page 107 uh you'll see number 2 206 um the aspac uh budget uh I'm asking you to consider an increase in that um what's happening is is entertainment fees are up uh technical assistance fees are up um the rental of certain pieces of equipment is up and um if if we don't keep Pace then you're going to see a decline in the quality of programming at osac and I don't think anybody wants that so I'm asking you to consider an $8,200 increase uh in their allotment which would take it from 33800 to 42,000 what what does that get us is that just to cover the existing inflation it would be the same programming you know putting on the plays and and P that's I have I have a program going on tonight that is has a problem so they're they're gonna be calling me but um nothing we can't handle so so what happens is you know the the the cost to higher quality acts and to and to pay for licensing fees and all those things they they they're they're they're pick it up they're getting higher and higher and it's getting more and more more difficult so this is really not an an ask to expand it's an act to it's an ask to to stay on Pace what we're already doing okay um what else are we what do we have uh I mean we're going to give some commentary back and ask some questions at the at the end see you got some OE budget lines that you want changed as well do you need to take that yeah well they need you to go step out I can't be too close yeah okay um I'm sorry that's all right where were you uh you've got the mayor's program also your request yeah we we're we're running into the same thing there with the increase cross across the board and um uh you most of mostly all of the um special events that they do once a month all require catering and things like that and the fees you know everybody knows where food and beverage is going you know it's off the charts so we need a little bit of help there okay and what is this Senior Golf what happens is under programs we we have a budget line on on page2 called programs which a lot of different things fall under and it's kind of like our Flex uh budget so to speak we can do a lot of things underneath it um we run a series of senior golf outings for senior citizens in West Orange and um the country clubs are experiencing some of the things that I've just explained to you with rise of food costs and different things like that and they're kind of pricing us out of that uh opportunity to to provide this service so I have two choices I can ask you guys to help me a little bit or we can start really skyrocketing the prices to seniors to participate in these things which I think at the end of the day the death program we're kind of at a we're at that tipping point where if it goes if we start charging the seniors much more money I I just don't think the program is going to continue so we're asking for a little bit of seed money there to cover some expenses keep the keep the cost down our seniors I ask questions on this page sure so so just to go over a couple things um and thank you for for bringing that to our attention so I saw that it's zero are they still doing the Project Graduation the 2500 are utilizing that or did they not did they do that this year or they did away with that program on the community service page on 204 yeah the high school PT project yeah I know they did it are you guys okay go said zero are you guys contributing to that still or that's related to when they actually make requests you often come you're following okay so just now just looking to see where we can move money around and I know with the mount top now the basketball club that you supplement their insurances correct with all the money that we give part yeah okay and then Luna stage we increased them last year or the year before correct to two years in a row two years in a row but Luna stage is still only 8,000 correct yeah we're not he's not asking for a increase I'm just well I have a question about that one you done all right but we didn't we increased aspac not Luna stage no no aspac we increased because of the lack of funding to community to to uh well we took the community house money and divided it up to the other yeah to the downtown and to the OAC a couple years ago right so two years in a row we've given them additional money yeah and not Luna stage and not Luna stage right that's my point no Luna stage no they were 3,000 they got increased over right but we've G the substantial amount to aspac we've we're giving right now a substantial amount to other programs but we're not increasing if we're going to increase the Arts I think we should be consistent in how we increase the art you have and Luna stage is not getting a tremendous amount of money and Luna stage is doing just as good a work all season long not seasonal all year long as as OAC is did they did they ask for a request do you need asked for more they've asked for more money mean they haven't somebody yeah they they've asked yeah I listen again I'm just asking the question so so so what what did they ask for well I they need more funding I they didn't have a specific request but I'm just saying if AAC is coming and continuing to ask for more money we need to be Equitable in how we distribute we're giving to the downtown Alliance and they're doing programming if we're giving to aspac and they're doing programming then we should also take into consideration Luna stage yeah I'm I'm I agree with councilwoman Williams yeah I think the original question councilwoman was on the budget it says zero is expended to date yeah um for many of these well even us even Luna stage just says zero did they use their money or no they didn't they did not get their money buy for their money until this year Mr they didn't apply to to receive their money until this year okay but they're getting it from last year okay and what about do we do we fund the chamber or is that we don't do that anymore that that was always that was incorrect that supposed to be the West rotary it's not the CH okay that was the that was the money uh associated with Fourth of July which they don't which they don't participate any so I could take I could take okay I I could move that 22 actually what that was was when that money they moved that Fourth of July program I whether it's a chamber or or rary rotary there was a Christmas program that we that we did support um a one time thing as sort of a replacement of that yeah for the one time yeah you did it one time yeah okay I don't know whether it's rotating okay so the West Orange Chamber of Commerce is down for 2250 yeah and what we're saying is that they are not the recipient of the 2250 is that what we're one time they gave it because they can move money around one time they gave it to the rotary no well so is that the is that the is that the case was it just that one time to the rotary I believe that's the case I mean have to go back to research to make sure so it certainly hasn't been recently okay there were sell hot chocolate or something at one of the events I mean 20 from what I remember I could be B all right so um councilman you had several questions on those and I Echo those questions I I mean it's interesting to me that all of them uh well not all of them but many of them uh senior citizens High School PTA Project Luna stage aspac uh only chamber ofert and West Orange Elite Basketball Club all have zeros next to what was expended in 2023 well he a process issue that they often apply after the after the fact that this this is reimbursement or this is a is for them for their efforts and we we we they're required in order to get paid they have to give us report on how they're spending their money so it it is is this the money not unusual for it to bleed into the next year that's F okay is this the money that pays their coaches when they because we just received a not a letter not too many weeks ago where their coaches hadn't been paid from the high school programs is no that's separate separ this the same thing or separate that's separate line and they have been paid though at least that's my recollection from what the guys have been paid all right um councilwoman uh Williams did you have something you wanted to say I I have pretty much stated my sentiment I just feel like if we're going to increase aspac or the downtown Alliance um that you're not increasing downtown they're staying that they didn't ask for an increase that Luna stage be given some type of consideration and the consideration should be significant like it is to ASAC and to the downtown Alliance that's still one of our Arts facilities and that is a volunteer 501c3 organization they're run just based on donations just like the other two and I just think we need to be Equitable councilwoman scarper no I just think if we're increasing we should know what we're increasing for and why yes why we need the money and where it's going to go rather than talking about in inreasing everybody across the board I think we should have a better understanding of the need that's all I want to say yeah um Council mgber Michael did you want to offer commentary on page 107 Community Services operating expense no I I Echo councilwoman Williams sentiments about being Equitable across the board so I think uh and and I I I think uh so I share your concerns about Luna stage as well I have been to multiple uh plays there they do a phenomenal job yeah um and it it certainly does I mean I thought it was a huge get for us when they relocated from Montclair to West Orange um I would certainly like to see us support them more I think councilman scara's issue is that uh we don't have a specific either dollar amount or understand why they need it for all of them not just Luna stage but I think for all all of the people that we're giving money to we should understand what what they're doing with the resources they have and exactly why they need additional resources where it's going to go yeah I think Mr Kio is here to explain the ones on on the on his sheet it's I I don't think he is prepared to explain uh Luna stage but that doesn't mean we can't uh figure out something the other thing I would encourage us to do and this is this is uh you know the instructions that we gave that we discussed in our very first budget Workshop um let's look at the whole thing let's is before we start increasing here or there let's understand where we're going to take from uh with the eye toward um keeping this 2.47 increase or lowering it um uh if possible and and that's why council president I wanted to see where those where the zeros were if they was going to be utilized or not so we need to shift any money we can also when we look at percentage increase I mean if you look at you know the senior golf is is almost double the the mayor's program they're asking for much more than double for food um that seems pretty exorbitant to go from 13,000 currently to $32,000 I don't have a problem with that amount I've been to their programs a tremendous amount of their programs and they run on a extremely skeletal but skeleton budget and they do a lot for the for that community so um I I part of the challenge that we have is when we're not certain about a program we have to get out there and attend that program that's the only way we're going to have a comprehensive understanding of what these programs need so if you're not willing to go and see how these programs run then it's very difficult for us to say and understand why an increase is necessary but I I've been to that program I several events again the of the 13 events um that they've held I would say that I've been to at least six or seven so um Mr Kio my question on on um on the initial the the thing for aspac it wasn't was it not communicated to the mayor or to Mr gross before this was put together the additional 8200 because the the request that is on the budget um at least the way it's listed here says that you requested 338 and the mayor recommended 338 this came afterward the the 8200 yeah all right is the mayor aware of it did you yes you made the mayor aware got it okay um so with the senior golf program um are we utilizing Rock Spring no why not expensive because it's a public golf facility and the um the senior golf outings are held at country clubs and the whole point of it is that they get to play courses that they can't play on a regular basis when we tried to run one of Rock Spring it was a disaster why nobody signed up for it because they could go they can play there anytime they want they have senior discounts for residents at Rockburn so there was no lore to it so we go to cresond we go to monair Country Club we go to Essex County how many participants do you have we usually get about a 100 each time okay and uh and these are all West Orange residents majority majority there's a there's a there's a a percentage that are not and they pay more got it how how do non-residents get into the program do they have to come as the guest res they're they're hooked in with somebody generally almost always can we charge more for non-residents we did here we did I mean to offset thing we did we do but can we charge even more for the non-residents to offset the 8,000 as as you as you continue to raise the fees it's just like at the pool I mean what point does it get that you're that you think you're raising more money by raising the fee you're having less participants in your not what you're not raising the income what percentage are non-residents a small amount so small that it's marginal it wouldn't make a difference you want to raise the fees on seniors no of course you just suggested to him well if they're not residents it would be different you want to raise the fees on any senior whether they're resident or not that's what you just suggested to him no what what she suggested was charging non-resident seniors more which I I certainly understand but but we do that that's that's buil in gotta gotcha yeah they won't get the right participation well he may not get it from non-resident seniors he kept fees the same at resident seniors um and and you know obviously our budget should reflect our values um and seems are important to us we've uh certainly been doing a lot more work um to support um that particular population um but these are tax dollars too right I just want to say you know our seniors are close to 20% of the population and they have like what I think um we have like the smallest budget and if anything I'd like to see Senior senior budget increase well I would be increasing this particular line item um at least from this particular Department um all right Mr Mr uh Kio you you spoke about the mayor's program um it's on the on the back there's a total increase of 41,000 this is a difficult one to explain um the hourly wages have certainly CAU up to us we were paying hourly for part-time people you know what's happening with that is there mandated increases but Lisa and Doug Adams who ran that program for a long time that was a labor of love and they weren't really putting in their hours they're asking to be paid they were they were on salary but half the time they were volunteering and you know they're they're phasing out of the program now we have to go out and hire people who are not going to do that um so have we worked with past at all maybe some of the past parents would take over and we we still have a few volunteers but but there's certain things that volunteers cannot to you know I mean they've got to coordinate staff and and and coordinate purchase orders and order things and do different things it's a lot and they're also looking to the mayor's program has always been a strictly a recreational program okay in other words it was provid providing recreational activities for that population the suggestion is that they want to now start branching out to educational and support services for that group which means we're going to be dealing with more more people or whatever so it's not just the raising cost of hourly workers and replacing two people who really didn't take much out of the budget because they chose to do it as a labor of love but also we're talking about you know bringing in support people you know DDD presentations different things along those lines so we're looking to expand what they do it's it's a big ask I understand that is this already in the budget or this is extra that's extra 82,000 is it 8739 extra so can I all together right right right but that's that's that is what you're asking us to add to the mayor's no that's that's that's everything I asked for all together okay but but this 41657 for this item you just you just is it in here or we have to add it in there you have to add it in so you okay this is something that was just recently planned this isn't something that was planned prior to putting the bed together no this this had to do with with changing of Staffing and some reorganizational meetings that took place with the staff and trying to find some new directions and some new new things to provide so I'm sorry are I don't see Lisa or Doug Adams on your chart here where you have your employees listed that would be page 109a retired from it he done took over he was just an hourly employee so not every hourly employee is going to be listed on new Js so H how do you account for hourly employees on your budget um there are different program lines later in the budget um if you go [Music] to page 109 there are multiple lines down there um all relate to to the mayor's program so for example where it says special needs part-time part caretaker hourly yeah handicap program coordinator so is that particular person is that an actual person yeah you have someone in that role lot times it changes sometimes it's just a summer employee if it's a camp program why that is our summer King and part of it is people that work in the office and you know they stayed for a while necessar a single person no it's not necessarily a single person all it's a multi so I I'm a little confused how um you have some people that work all year round if they're hourly why aren't they showing up on the budget they may be here all year round but not necessarily on a regular schedule so they're considered seasonal so if you have for example somebody as a footstep instructor that same person could be getting paid as a special needs Camp Personnel for the day is that right I me could be yeah okay so so one person could potentially wherever you need to plug them in yeah we multiple course so how do you higher than sometimes I wish I I could figure that out myself um we just keep plugging it in and and you know people work for a couple months college students come in they move on and you know you just rattle cage you and find somebody that's interested and willing to you know do a labor for us and you know I have a location in this area it's it's not easy thr all this stuff that's for sure would it be easier if you had you know a formal job description yearlong you know a full you know annual calendar um with real description what their role is well might it might help you at your end to understand it but do very little for me and and you're using a ton of part-time workers too that's what 99% of it is yeah so it's just difficult to understand college kids work on our summer campus counselor there it's like they do it the pool or anywhere else in community else all right so when you add up all of these 911s where does this 36343 come from that's all that's all that's that that's the money that's currently allotted for employees of the mayor involved in the mayor's program that's the 36 343 is the active number so but which lines would comprise that so and which lines then comprise the other 41,000 like which ones have been approved or at least recommended and which lines are you asking us to add in or are those additional 41 not listed on here somewhere th those 41 the 41 will be integrated into these existing lines so you would you what your your ask is to increase these existing lines these part-time employees the amount that you pay is that to increase the hours to increase the amount per hour okay but if you're looking for educational Support Services when you need another program director or somebody like are are you g to give that responsibility office right now focusing that stuff somebody as an admin or or have keyboard Clerk or how you addressing that se employee but they have to have a title we don't we have to have people they'll have tit anybody all R level positions um if if it's clerical ke ke okay we have we also have well in Recreation we do have Recreation Le positions so there are other yeah they're all on 108 few other entry level 109 rather that they use and that's really based on where their directed feels um their focus going to be um I am interested in certainly supporting parks in general I've made it clear I spoke to um our ba few months ago I was going to and I requested that the mayor include money for uh parks in uh in down at multiple schools in the capital budget when it's introduced later this year I am certainly supportive of the parks it's hard for me to and to approve at least to vote for uh this 41,000 under the mayor's program without knowing where it's going or which which line items it's going to what the hourly rate is going from and to how many additional hours are going to be there uh if there are going to be new roles created ated because they can't stay part-time once they work above a certain number of hours so then does that mean they become full-time and then we hire them full-time like I don't that's a tough one for there's no there's no full time coming through this CH I'm not asking no but if you have we first we've never converted somebody part position not position' never taken part-time positions and put them all together and converted them into a full-time position we wouldn't have the money for that we wouldn't have the the benefit money you're changing the whole dynamic so these positions that are dedicated to uh part-time funds will remain part-time funds but we still have no way of knowing what the current rate is what it's going to how many hours that covers how many people cover based on the the positions are based on which we which you do we do outline the positions but the position are based on the salary ordinance the council approves with the salary range right but it doesn't say on like there's no way unless you have something we don't have Mr gross I can't match up the 416 to any line item on here and I can't assume that it's going to be a 5% increase council president can I ask a question I know you guys can't see when I raise my hand so I'm just gonna interject that's okay um why is there should be a line item for like every seasonal employee and what the cap is for it just like we have for other departments so I don't understand why we can't do that now why they can't do that now for the parks department and are there grants that we can look at for Staffing I know that other forms of government receive grant money for Staffing for departments so can we apply for Grants to help offset these costs yeah I I don't think that's going to be listed I don't know that that'll be listed in in time for us to meet our Target date of July 19th but but to your point about um not being able to take this request and put it into the L because it's not the lines this is an is is a u an awkward way to to do it and certainly it what we what we certainly can do is I can work with the the director to transform this request into a line item request so that it so that at least you'd know where it was intended here I think this was this is a narrative request that that that the director put together it was it was outside and after the budget process so that that's just this is just more form over substance we certainly can transform it into a a a more traditional request for you thank you sir I think that would be helpful for my colleagues and I that would be helpful for me as well yeah um celebration of public events 4th of July uh is the pro the Fourth of July celebration as currently planned more expensive than providing the fireworks yes how so yeah I like to hear that because um we were we were test with you know coming up with something that was significant enough to replace fireworks it would have been very easy for us to Simply say we're not doing fireworks anymore uh but that's not what we wanted to do we wanted to come up with something that was significant as we delved into the process of putting the music festival into this celebration which we never had before we came across a lot of very interesting learning curves um sound technicians audio equipment and um different things that that was brand new for us and and and and it's and it's it's something that we we we had no way of knowing we we took we took some common sense approaches to it and at the end of the day we're we're saying oh my gosh we got to pay we got to rent a stage that's you know $800 we got to pay three audio techs we have to hire an audio te company we have to hire the bands we have to you know do all these things and and it's it's it's just becoming it's becoming very very enlightening but also a little bit more expensive than the fireworks you should talk to Camille because those are some of the same issues that she has with sound that I've spoken with her about at oek that are exorbitant costs thank God that that Camille and Elliot sus and her sound guy up there has jumped in because they have been invaluable to us right and they've saved us a ton of money already some of the quotes that came in that would have you know just thought about maybe even cancelling it because they were so exorbitant Elliot and Camille found ways to to to restructure it and do things a different way they've been a God would it be more cost-effective to do it there at OAC the problem is you can only fit 200 people there you know what are you gonna do it just doesn't so doesn't work Council woman so with a tremendous amount of respect for everyone trying to jump in and do things differently and overcompensate when things have to change um being involved on a different board and being involved in supporting their need and desire to do a festival in East Orange one of the things that they we have to really so I guess what I'm trying to say is instead of the rec department trying to put on a music festival why aren't we subcontracting people who really do music festivals know how to put on a music festival instead of us trying to peie meal something together there are people out here who really do this professionally that's a great idea and we've got to start working working smarter not harder I mean putting on together these festivals not for nothing and I and I get it and I'm not comparing it but we've got to figure out how to do these things I can't imagine that fireworks we spend $7,000 on fireworks there's no reason why 40 entire evance yeah it was 40 but on the fireworks in the event oh it's I'm talking about police I'm talking about fire SP 75,000 leas is on a different budget I understand that but what I'm saying still we shouldn't have to spend more than4 $4,000 to do a music concert it that means to me that somebody doesn't know what they're do well it's not just a music festival I mean we've got all the food trucks we've got kids zones we rent bouny hous and all that other stuff yeah we're doing a lot of other things we just got to be we we we got to be pound wise and not we're we're stepping outside of our comfort zones and we're not doing it well we're just not doing it well well we're doing it well we may not there may be better there may be better ways to do it that that could save us a few dollars but I take umage we're not doing it well we we we are we are doing everything we possibly can to make the things successful um we're in like I said we're in uncharted waters and and and if you have leads for us that we could discuss over the course of the winter with them for possibly you know helping us or guiding us for next year I'm all for that well Mr K I I want to say I think um um I I I don't want you to take my uh push back as U critical of you as a director of the department um what I what I do think my colleagues and I we've had some quiet conversation you know amongst ourselves tonight um would prefer to see with regard to this particular Fourth of July celebration is possibly work at you know with aspac or at ASAC or utilize another part of the Arts Community within West Orange that does have that skill set um to to to handle the U at least the Arts portion of it um but now back to the budget the budget is calling for 35,000 and that is what you had requested to put on the uh Fourth of July celebration we won't call it just a music festival but right Fourth of July celebration and you're you're now you're you're saying you need another 6700 right okay see this what we get for our budget late everybody's looking for more every year right and at some point what we're going to have to do is get two years of the Fourth of July in particular so that we're at we're not asking this year for this year yeah right right right right um so maybe Mr gross uh actually you probably won't be the one to do it uh but Mr moraldo for next year uh when we do the budget let's do two years in the Fourth of July celebration or any of those early in the year doesn't have to be you you you figure out how you want to do it in the state of New Jersey you can't fund the following years's appropriation from previous years so okay we could set some having said that you know I mean certain certain things the council can address early and and put in place so that the administration knows what you know what funds right so we know what we're spending and we're negotiating over it before you know two weeks before the event yeah this is this is similar to a change order yeah it's exactly what it is this is a change order all right so um I think I'm satisfied actually uh let me go back to my notes uh so if you go to uh page 108 um salary and wages were 421 uh budgeted was 421 what was spent was $499 then the request came in at 429 and that's what was recommended by the mayor can you help me understand that was that last year's Fourth of July pushed you over that's that's salary yeah 499 we've since doing in our in our uh preparation for a US identified that there was a misapplication to that line uh it was had had to do with the uh workers that were working in the recreation parks got but their DPW there were workers that were charged to this line so we we've made the the the adjustment for audit purposes on the DPW side as well can you forward that to us Mr gross um so so now going down to this hourly pay yeah we've got 23,000 was budgeted 126 was spent and we're requesting 204 that doesn't compart with at least what I've seen here so how do we get to 20 how do we can you explain that um Mr gross I mean the longevity line has is that does that have something to do with it the overtime line yeah that that I think that longevity line that's way over I think that's a a when it it was just put into the wrong line the appropriation I'll check on so so the hourly pay certainly don't spend Longevity if if you know on that much longevity in that department okay I'm not clear so page 108 like two or three people get right so how could it be $179,000 it can't it's not all right so we're going to need that updated words the hourly pay should be higher all the all those lines you see that we were just talking about those are all hourly pay lines um that that should be there so this this line but those lines don't add up to 179,000 either all of those hourly pay lines on was that 109 109 was that 109 I me I can do a quick C you got uh a council president we have lost councilwoman gabber Michael I'm trying to reestablish contact okay but she is currently not on the call oh this is so hard to do I'm going straight down the list but I'm adding the wrong ones some of them are not right if you if you you know you go back and look at last year's budget uh requests um you'll see that it ties okay so I'm I'm I'm not going to do that math right now it does jump out at me uh that uh back to 108 you know 421 was budgeted for salaries 499 was spent I know you made some corrections there you're going to get that to us 429 is requested this year uh the hourly rate the hourly pay line something's not right there the longevity line something's not right there the overtime line had 23,000 budgeted but only 5,000 spent and now we're asking for 24 and recommending 24 that's that's tough for me too um and then your cloathing allowance you we you budgeted 1,600 you spent 53 if we're going to spend 53 let's budget 53 was only 1,600 requested again this year that that goes to the same issue with the is that P the hour from from DPW that's a DPW expense not a yeah they clothing yeah because they they're contractual clothing they they don't but it's just they'll they'll be getting you gol shirts certain yes there are certain employees to get sorry a um um a line where it was it just hit the Department well are you going to flip that back or I did that's part of the just I told you as I said I did a we you know in preparation for the for the audit looked at and saw found um found that and have have made adjustments for that so Mr gross if we are to get to the point where we can actually vote on amendments to the budget tonight are you able to provide an updated updated data for the parks and recck department so that we can include that in our vote or and if not then what would the process be well that's up to you whether you want to hold up on that if if my explanation is not sufficient that's up to you it's probably not I'm not going to be able to give you reports tonight on that so so then assuming you got reports to us between now and our next council meeting which is when if we vote tonight this would be introduced at our next council meeting correct if if you were to give updated data that's the goal yes if you were to give updated data on Parks and wreck between then and now and we wanted to make amendments to it could we vote on it via email well keep in mind you're only introducing so if you your first your vot is only introduction so anything that you've done can be so we can amend that at any time after okay yeah all right so my request Mr gross is that you get to each of us uh the updated data on the parks and W um the parks and wck budget um uh do my colleagues have any other qu oh Mr TI are we are we are you satisfied with the grants uh that we are applying for that would fall under parks and wreck or there some things that we can do differently or better to offset some of your exper uh expenses well Mo most of the grants that that we get are are kind of uh you know geared toward improvements of existing facilities or what whatever um we're doing pretty good job with that um through our grand riter we just got $66,000 uh for um uh some improvements to the aspac site um we also got money to uh enhance the seating and um uh Team areas up at the the new tur field at D so so we're we're we're getting we're getting but those will be on Capital uh you get do you guys looking do you get program addict no we haven't gotten program grants no okay I know that there's Arts grants out there but I think that aspac usually applies for those and Luna probably applies for those have they gotten any I don't know I mean I know I know I know ASAC has gotten a few small ones but when you talk to a lot of people in the Arts world and maybe you guys talk to them more often than I do but my my understanding is that a lot of theil philanthropic donations have really dried up a little bit out there it's much more competitive and you know don't have to tell you guys it's tough out there you know before we leave this budget um when it comes to Luna stage um you know I have my own ideas about you know what we could do there I'm willing to uh listen to my colleagues before I interject does anyone want to make a recommendation there that just so that we can put a pin in it before we move on in regards to giving them yeah um I would like to talk to Ari first and get specifics on what their needs are because I've had conversations with her but if we're going to ask for specifics and how the money would be utilized I can get a conversation with her and come back and report on what that money willed but I I'm confident that they need additional fund clarify that I mean every everyone generally does and I think should Mr Kio have that conversation or Mr I I really haven't had any discussions with Luna stage you know although this is under my jurisdiction here on this page the the ones that we are hands on with are Mountaintop the P ASAC and the West Orange Elite Basketball Club those are the ones where we collect the data you know sign sign the contracts and all the others but also Administration some other some been don't they all have to do uh an application for the funding too when it get yeah I don't hand I don't handle in other words he gets a he gets a report from them that's why the community house didn't get their funding right I think it is appropriate for the director to yeah that's fine for a report one has never been requested no no no no I'm just say I'm just telling you the the rules for it that's fine I mean she would not have a problem producing whatever is requested I'm sure she doesn't but I'm just just remind every other Mr if you don't mind I would we would like you to speak with Luna stage sure and and this is not because we're trying to give away money yeah but we want to understand the full budget as we make whatever adjustments um yeah and so you know it may or may not happen but we need I've ask her to put a proposal together for an increase in our funding based on whatever that is what it is okay and then I'll tell her that you know if it's G to come if it's going to be actively under my department in other words not just on paper but in reality then she'll have to finally with me same with the other organizations not a problem so I'll make sure that she understands what she's signing up for yep much obliged thank you council president please do advis that uh Council G Michael is back on the call is able to reestablish contact and she's been on for like the last five minutes thank you sir okay uh anything else for Mr K and parks and wck before we go uh I got 110 if we're moving yep we're moving forward so we're good on 108 we're good on 109 um 110 Yeah question on 110 sure Council thank thank you council president um so number 76 board ofed rental fees we have our agreement with the school board um what why did you have to pay $1900 last year for rental fees we didn't budget any money and looks like you expended 1905 for rental fees well like I don't know I didn't SP I didn't get the Board of Education any money okay I was just curious because we have that agreement so it just shows on the budget it shows that the 1,95 was spent unless that's inaccurate then it should be updated reflect that it's not because it shows it in this budget yeah line 76 okay that's my question Mr gross can you um address that for us yeah I don't I don't know the answer to that but we can look into it find out and then uh officials you uh what line are you oh no no no no no uh 90 but you had 25 had5 the um officials the officials line is called the officials line it also includes entry fees okay okay so what happens is coaches have options as far as what leagues and tournaments they want to participate in some are very aggressive in that area and some are not so for instance you might be coaching the sixth grade team I'm coaching the fourth grade team you want to enter four tournaments I don't want to enter any so in a particular year that is always going to fluctuate but should there shouldn't so so shouldn't there be a standard of you know order to have competitive programming if one coach doesn't want to enter like shouldn't like it's not fair to that particular team and the other team gets other you know other experiences volunteers you know you can't you can't hold their hands to the fire it's hard hard enough out they're getting volunteers and we have some very very good ones but don't forget these are people that have families and children and jobs and other things and some of them can't go to a facility all day Saturday and Sunday and participate in you know four or five games or whatever it's it's beyond their their ability to give that time so it it all of our coaches are dedicated they do a nice job and and like I say that that fluctuates year to year some guys are big on tournaments some guys would rather spend that time practicing yeah you know and making the team better that way director have you ever used the full 25,000 in the past previous years I would say definitely okay then I think that we should leave it it's it's a less than $8,000 difference and if not it can be used towards something else in in the parks department it will just be you know extra leftover that they can utilize for other things right I yeah some of that could go to uniforms and things like that you know equipment supplies yeah what about advertising advertising was a a a twoyear plan that we had in the summer to create those summer cards that we did direct mailing on out to the community and what we tried to do last year and this year was to not spend that money and to do the same information electronically so this is the second year we're going to evaluate at the end of this year whether we reach the same number of people whether we we feel we accomplished our same goal without putting out that printting printing job and mailing job and we're going to make a decision whether to go back to the printing job next year or whether to abandon that so based on results is the newsletter included in advertising no where's the line item for the newsletter he does it I I do that myself okay that's any other questions on arm 1110 I have a general question Mr gross there are quite a few line items here that um the you know the amount budgeted versus the amount spent uh are significantly they differ significantly now I don't agree with the practice but I know that it is your practice to um use some things like this as uh a way to get to your Surplus num is that what you're trying to accomplish here well no if you look at the bottom line that's really really what matters the the the sublines are not um are guides if you will it's a way to put the the budget together to try to make sure that we're we're attracting um you know we're budgeting an appropriate amount uh but at the end of the day what you're voting on and and what what really matters is what is the bottom line for it and and the difference between those two would would would possibly go to um budget to a surplus it's also there should there be some C you know the cost overruns certain amount of uh money you know because we spend it this year doesn't mean that that next year we might not need to spend a little bit more even though we might be leaving the amount budgeted the same so it just that that's that's the interplay of that um but the so in regards to those comments like for example 120 the clay and I know that's based on you have to put the clay down and when there's rain you're not putting your clay down when there's no rain you're putting the clay down um again we're just like we have ass now and now we got have to figure out if we could you know provide those ask or if there's room within other lines that you could shift to to cover this without us having to do that task because again this is your budget I I see where you you know obviously you know why you need things in certain is Islands better than us um so is there anything in here from these other line items that you're able to move around is is I guess that's where you're going that's where I was thinking I think I think you said something very intuitive there when you said moving things around yeah because I know you do that Conant all these carry so much because we are moving everything yeah around to meet the needs on Tuesday you know on Wednesday yeah um they're not they're not written in stone at the end of the day they give me a guideline a working number and I have to accomplish all these things within that number what is the um program that we use to do our budgeting and accounting what program do we use to do our budgeting we use midex midex so by your uh recent statement Mr gross the Parks and Rec Department total budget um now I'm looking on page 112 that 8 820 194 was budgeted for 23 8005 was spent 911 is requested this year by the department $100 less was recommended by the mayor and is that a dollar is that a typo why would we why would the mayor offer $100 less than the department request I'm going to that patient okay got 112 yeah I apologize what line was that again the bottom the bottom page total [Music] and make a statement why they're looking at that what line it's one says six and the other says five next line now there and the one two over just what they add up to if you look for this one this one this one says 699 and that one says 5 569 yeah that was just that that was a that's add up if you if you take if you take the that's the salary and wages and the O as it turns out you know we we we we striv as close as we can to not going you know not have increases John when you look at the sorry Mr gross when you look at the 2024 departmental requests the lines faced side by side are the exact same numbers so there's no reason why they shouldn't add up the same but this includes all the other PTI but they're not it's also the salary and wages and sary wages you know this is this is a oh no what she's saying Mr gross is your bottom line one7 well still it's still other Pages too it's not just this page because the line right above it says 4236 the one next to it 74 right but this is this that's a some that's a that's that's including Pages uh you know the prior Pages too right and I'm going side by side because the numbers are are lined up in in a column right if I look at the numbers side by side the numbers are the same and the departmental request and the mayor's recommendation there's no $100 discrepancy in any of these lines for it the very first line is $100 $100 right petty cash right that's the difference it's petty cash um but the point I was getting at is we we did we spent 805 last year total we budgeted 820 we spent 805 and now we're asking for 911 what line are you talking I'm at the page total on page 112 this is the total departmental that's everything yeah so 820 was was budgeted 805 was spent 911 is requested by the Department 911 is is recommended by the mayor which is 106,000 more than what we spent last year and that's before we get to the 80 plus thousand that's on this 87,000 so now you're looking at 193,000 more is the departmental request for 24 than we spent in 23 did I get that right I think you did you did all right okay all right so all right any other questions um for Mr Kio let me just tell you you do you perform you provide an invaluable service our Parks we've got to we certainly do need to invest in our Parks um I think a lot of that is a capital um not quite operational yeah we're trying to uh we're we're at we're at that point cilman where um Sports is becoming a 12mth a year yeah business yeah um teams that used to practice on our turf fields and uh you know September October November now want to practice on those fields in April May June and also in the summer Sports is becoming a full-time thing and we're getting to the point where um our our physical spaces both indoors and Outdoors are being pushed to the liming um there are you know grandiose plans to solve this build a Rec Center give us an extra gym I get it that's Millions Turf OK Conor Park and great solution it's Millions um one of the things that we can do and I know you and I have had this discussion before and working on it yeah okay so we'll leave it at that yeah working on because that's the most economical solution I I feel like I have a compelling argument um we'll see how far it goes what are we talking about it's something we're just trying to get access to uh additional spaces in town um that have some structural impediments to providing access to the high school yeah I think if we um I mean I'm G to be accused now of having a back door conversation and doing a deal in the back I am going to be accused of that I've already been accused of it I'm not accusing you and I you know what it is yeah this is to benefit the community hopefully take some pressure off the budget um all right um so I think I'm satisfied with Mr ke you guys have any other questions before we thank you very much sir was one more thing in here no the uh question about um I guess I'm not supposed to mention particular people's names right but on that sheet you'll see a uh request to uh take a very very valuable employee who has been working for 16 years fulltime with me and moving him into the next um phase he has been kep now for uh 11 years at the same salary so uh and and and and since that time in the course of those last 11 years where his salary is kept he has taken over two critical critical responsibilities in our department one the operation of the got Civic Center and the other the operation of the municipal pools office staff and and and badges and memberships and all that so uh can you direct us to the line I don't see the promotion on here it's not it's oh it's on here yeah it's on the top of the back page to yeah got you ask you to please give that you know I so why understand one thing that's on my Quest I'm asking for one employee to get help I'm asking for special needs people to get some help I'm asking for seniors to get some help you know it's pretty pretty good stuff you know absolutely totally understand uh Mr gross can you um when you send us the information and inform us uh if we were inclined to grant that request how we could do it legally there was some conversation earlier on about uh the ability to make those kinds of payments I don't know um if this would be on the same the same vein this particular one is is a promotion so it would be a promotion okay so just list what it is when you send that to us please so that we can consider it and my understanding is based on the the promotion that the cost would be uh would be somewhere around $2500 $2,200 for the year on on understood are you doing the pool before you get up or we have questions on the pool answer questions you have on the I mean I I didn't but they they may I don't know just it's we're trying we're trying to get this over page 142 we still had more for uh Park and wreck so um headed to it now what percentage decline in do we have at deine deine are we increasing you got to use your microphone so to sorry I believe I believe we are over last year's numbers oh good good for you and what's the membership cost for the pool it varies depending on how many people you have but we are we are um one of the most economical Municipal pools yeah and I ask you every year have you consider and I and I'm going to continue to ask have you considered day passes yes we have and do we have them no no I I would not advocate for that neither would I can I ask why we wouldn't it's a disaster how so how so educate us because you don't get people there consistently and then you offer special what half half year and then then you can't they have the lifeguards so my kids were lifeguards there so if you all a sudden you have a certain number of staff on you get inundated with date passes you're not going to have enough lifeguards on duty so it's gets complicated plus they they lot lot of time they'll come one day they don't know the rules they don't know the guidelines and then the members are getting upset and you know you get a lot of that and then you get overcrowded and you get overcrowded so you can control crowding because you can say there's no more people who can come in and access but if you have a full year season pass that you PID lot of money for then you're getting bumped you don't get to the pool in time and then you're going to lose the seasonal fees because people are just going to pay for a day here day there they could pay as a they could pay as a guest what if we do them during the week and not on the weekends and have a certain amount dedicated daily it's not like a free-for-all you know where hundreds of people can come during the day but if we set a p no unless we restrict it and say okay we're giving out 20day passes every day I'm just making up a number obviously is up to 20 Monday through Friday you know like not Saturday those day passes are gone they're gone that's it then no one else can yeah why why couldn't we do something like that and then think outside the box so the the reason um it's and that it has been brought up uh to the council is that there are folks that can't afford a half season or a full season pass and would still have you know several days over the summer that they like to take the family to the pool sure may be able to do it that way that um you know when we we talk about affordable housing and other issues in town um affordability at the pool is you know many people look at it as a luxury but uh certainly if we could make it affordable for you know some of our lower income residents to have a day at the pool even if they can't afford a half season um if you if you tapped it as my colleagues uh have suggested would that cause the chaos that council is trying to avoid yeah that's just the cool I'd have to look into that I know I know that this issue is not a West Orange issue this is an issue that is affecting all the PO all operation of Municipal pools all over the place and we have you know meetings with other Recreation directors and uh that that is just it's it's bad road to go down nobody wants nobody's in favor of it very few towns permit it Which towns do you know if you if you know uh permit day passes I'd have to go back on that I don't know you do have free nights that you do right for the community and some free we just had Sports and games night where people you know people come to the pool and you know there there's there's Community House program comes Community House comes and all our Sports Camps come you know they they have a basketball camp they get on the bus and come down swim for commity house comes there's a lot of there's a lot of things going on in the pool that a lot of hours are spent with non-membership activities you don't have to be a member to be on the swim team you don't have to be a member to get swim lessons there's a lot of different things going on I mean we we we've did pie charts in the past where you know we've shown that like 40% of operational hours are non-members on the pool budget any questions um and who is our vendor this year for the pool for food same as last year and we've been pretty successful with them as well I don't have any other concerns about the pool the only thing that always um that I get about the pool is the not being able to as a resident to just go on a pass think that yeah it is it is it's and we do have to be mindful that affordability is a concern and maybe if there's a consideration where uh we do it once a month um you know I I know or once a week even you know I once a week yeah 25 day passes but then again he's got to put more Staffing on duty so so he's got to figure that out you need more if you have more people come to the pool during that time frame you need more staff on totally understand I mean I I know that there's I know that there are other impacts um but I you know what not saying it can't be done but you have to yeah yeah is that we would like to see that we would like to see that's a policy that's a policy shift yeah and how we approach affordability in our community and and for those who may not be able to purchase full or or summer pass or a half year pass so and we understand that that will require some management uh from you and you know some planning uh but we we are encouraging you to do that um we're getting that kind of feedback from the community um and and so we need to see some some movement there um um you know with regard to even if it's just a one day a week uh and you cap it at 20 or 25 uh if you had to cap it at a number that wouldn't necessarily put you into a bracket where you needed additional lifeguards for example slow day right you pick your day but let's let's see if we can slow day slow day means a raining day well you don't know when that's gonna happen that's the other thing if if you you know it turns out to be a 92 degree day here we go you know well pretty much all of them are going to 90 de days apparently apparently there's something going on right yeah all right good people I think we made our sentiments known Mr we'd love to get some uh followup on that um you know if we can get some plan planning on that by the end of the year so we know what we're expecting for next year run some options we yeah thank you very much sir thank you very much thank you thank you director you're welcome all right uh Mr gross who's up Miss vany he been here three times you've been here every night [Music] on right around Mr what page are we on for Senior Services miss m do you know what page you're on in the budget so okay thank you where we 103 okay thank you oh I I meant to ask this and I forgot uh Mr Mr gross uh Mr gross um under the park and wreck budget there is still a Fourth of July line it is not um it is it is different than this line that's written here uh let me just go so I can give you number what page is that on uh I'm going to it now give me one second it's on P 113 oh no it is the same so uh no that answered my question I'm sorry 35 26523 I don't know why I thought it was a different number but it is the same as that's on here question is actually answered all right so we're on 103 and 104 this is Senior Services we have director Laura van djk want to thank you very much for your patience your persistence um you know as with all the others please give us an overview of what it is you're trying to accomplish with your budget and any special requests so um the mayor's made her recommendations and I just really want to uh support those and would uh you know we have a teeny tiny budget and uh it would be helpful to enhance programming and um some of our initiatives give us additional funding for um additional instruction and a newsletter that will have a you know small you know cost associated with it um and then uh just wanted to really be supportive of my staff um would you like me to speak to that uh if you can without using specific names just we have um a senior liability position that I want to just be sure is a permanent part of our department and not one that's just um temporary that is a permanent position it's part-time it's 25 hours a week and that's in here currently a grant position because there's a there is a grant tied to it not the bulk of the salary but a portion of the salary and I think what what um Laura is concerned about I can't I'm sorry can't who's who's speaking right now that Mr what Laur what Laura is concerned about is is once the grant runs out that position will either will either go away or would be um have to be then converted into a a um a permanent position with the Town Council okay so thank you council president so this was the grant that from a few years back from partners for health when we did the senior citizen study and whatnot we received that funding but I thought when Dorothy Sanders was here we put this position in permanently because that was part of the ask of the grant to do that so I'm a little confused here why this is considered grant money now when we already did that exercise two years ago D that that the other position you're talking about was and was always a it's also a grant POS yes it was it was a grant position um yes originally but then we made a per and then went then that position the person in that position went to another position which was also a grant position yes but we kept that line item open we kept the Line open but there was a grant attached to we did get a grant for it as well and that's frankly we haven't filled that position since then and that's the grant money we're using for this so so here's where I I have trouble understanding this because part of the requirement was to that be a line item in the budget which it was but it wasn't plugged by funding so now you're saying if we lose the grant we lose this line no I say if you lose the grant the grant you have a gr there is there is a grant Grant this year that we're utilizing this year we got the Grant I think two years ago um we didn't it we didn't utiliz it two years ago because we couldn't find anybody to get into that position we now got somebody into that position so we're utilizing the grant but but the argument last year that I oh sorry councilwoman what was your question for you you're saying this was two years ago I don't remember this before as councilman Scarpa and I were on the council right okay guys wanted to make sure didn't remember this from last year and last year I advocated to my colleagues because they were going to cut this line item I said you can't because that's the whole reason we keep getting the continual funding but was under my understanding it wasn't for that position but it was for funding for the department but not didn't have but we made that a permanent position in our budget for $60,000 and the salary was reduced you you you permanently you put it in in your budget anticipating um um renewing it every year yes is an action but that is not a Personnel action in our in our structure we have we have fulltime part-time and we have um Grant positions positions that are supplemented by a grant okay are paid for by the grant so what happens is when that grant money goes out there's no no money left in the budget to or or there's less money to to pay that that would then have to be I'm not I think what L is saying is until until this position is fully funded by the council it's in Jeopardy of being lost that doesn't mean that that the administration is not behind I just want to make sure moving forward because part of the program and getting money not just for this but from Partners the agreement heal is the agreement we have with them is we have to keep this position whether you getting grant money or not this position has no permanently no it cannot that I'm telling you that it's the requirements one year having said that yeah yeah yeah there's there's no intention to lose this position however however until it is fully funded in a budget and not dependent upon by a grant it is a grant position and the potential for that a c a future Council says you know what we're not going to do that then sure you could lose that position so so question now so I know you're concerned but you're concerned you're already in this budget so this isn't an extra this is already here so she's not asking for something extra for us to do tonight correct that unless we decide we're going to do away with the position which I don't think there and this year is covered this this is this potentially if it was going to become an issue it could become an issue in 25 so it looked like you wanted to weigh in director um is there some additional commentary you'd like to give us around that of the two-year history and all of that I think it was stated okay so I'm a little confused though because the individual that was in that position it it was my understanding that um so so and I'm I'm trying not to use names there was an individual in the position for the county she left us for a different job a different position and and then subsequently uh no we didn't fund it no we didn't there's some history here that right because there was something there was some dis this position was filled and then that person that was in that position um was a part-time position part-time Grant position um went to the and well let's not talk about where that person applied for and moved into a full-time Grant position actually did wasn't even working for us was working for um another another entity another entiti but doing the work here in West Orange doing but doing work for us and then in that that particular that that that Grant ended and that person went on wherever that person went so why didn't we have that person move back into the position they moved from it was less money and it wasn't um it was less money this is a part-time position that was a fulltime position right they couldn't I I have a question the grant money that we were paying this person if we were to put put in for like a full-time role instead can we still use that grant money towards programming or can it only be allocated towards employment I believe it's just this position and one thing talking about the I can't hear does this work can you hear me closer maybe okay thank you now I can hear I mean for this year we're talking about $110,000 so it's It's the Grant has provided seed money of 10,000 the part partners for health agreed to do that so that we could fulfill Our obligation to them which was to have this position because there was a gap there was a gap in in that there was a gap and and as a piece of that then that individual took a different position because we had a gap we did so she took a different position and so we needed to make that right and we did and we worked with the grant fun and this was the agreement they would provide the seed money of 10,000 and thank you for agreeing to the rest and we have a terrific person here who's already doing fabulous work so my intent tonight was just to really um make sure we make sure that this continues so to your point yes it's in here but I really wanted to speak to that so and and if we were to lose the grant it's only the grant is 10,000 of the the entire right there's no more there you this was a one-time Grant and it's not likely that it will repeat will certainly when the time comes attempt to do that I'm sure I'm sure um but I think we have to anticipate that it won't and because our from what we know you know what we do know about it it's not likely to repeat uh and that come next year that unless the the council fully funds it it will it will it will go away sometime during the next year but it's question can we can we find money in the budget to fully fund it if it's going to be $60,000 that you need I'm sure there's areas that we can wiggle move money 5,000 here 10,000 here it's a parttime part time position it's a parttime I know but what I'm asking is do you need a full-time person no not for that position okay do you need another parttime person this is a specific Duty okay and and the the Gap that would have to be covered if we didn't get the grant is 10,000 correct okay so can easily find and and I fully would expect that the administration the mayor will be asking for that in the next year's budget you know that's I would anticipate that that's the case what what is this 6875 is that a separate Grant that's Municipal Alliance yeah okay coordinator funding got it all right but also partners for health has other opportunities that we could capitalize now the senior citizen Health uh services or Center that's not under you you already did that okay all right so um just going through 167 was requested last year 188 was spent I'm on the base salary payline 10 uh this year 172 is requested and 172 is recommended by the mayor and that includes all of the asks that you have including um the um you know additional compensation the uh the the all of the roles that you have on here so on so forth there's no positions that are not on your budget and all of your positions are included uh on in that number 172 yes all right um why does it say zero for your hourly pay expended was but in the um it's all attributed to line 010 wasn't broken out that's a coding issue with Kronos we'll have to address that all right so do we know how much of that was spent because it's it's not 32,000 more than the base salary pay it's 21,000 more is little less well we know based on what the base salaries are what that I mean go I don't have those numbers for you tonight but um there um the last year was um 167 so you're talking about um that difference uh would be would be the hour approximately so about 21,000 Mr Bross if we go to again it was but that position wasn't fully wasn't wasn't filled last year so that's part of that that's that difference oh that's right she just got here February yeah um so Mr gross if you go to page 104 we got on the top line an employee that has almost six years experience uh the additional compensation here is 2800 is that normal is that that's we talked about this at the last meeting when you get a promotion you go to the next position The Next Step which may be if you're if you're you it could be the whole step just about you so maybe that whole step might be three or 4 thousand uh or if you're in the middle it's going to be less so the very first year of a step is that you won't know then then after that it becomes regular and those step changes are increased every so so this because we're mid year would be twice that 2,800 roughly it's not about not about midy year this is all anticipated retroactive of the First of the Year this is just a this is just a lading issue um and and these are all this is all part of um labor uh contracts gotcha because it's it's concerning to me I I'm you know we're not using names I know the amount of work that this particular individual puts in and how given how long they've been here um I would have expected the number to be oh God so so think about this is a mechanical this is not like a we don't listen you don't look at this and say let's give this person that much money that's not the way it works so this is mechanical there are steps the steps are and if in the position you're in right now let's set your or our $3,000 steps and I'm making the making the numbers up right let's say that right now you're making 31,000 and you get a promotion to another job and the the the steps the step range for that job um the the next when you go into it it could be um 29 to 34,000 let's say the the so so that person would then go into go up and go to 34,000 but if that step for 28 to 33,000 they would go up and they just go to the 33 that year because it's just mechanics of how it works and then following that if there's A4 $4,000 difference and they get $4,000 a year effort till they get to the top it's just it's just mechanical it's not it's it's not it's not an and they know that they they understand that it's not a it's not a u um so it's the same Department you're in a keyboard clerk to yeah that has to be negotiated by just making sure well one one one more question though on on your on that on this sheet on 104 you've got $1,000 listed for over it says you didn't spend any of it last year I can't imagine how that's possible 104 PID 104 so on 104 we've got a th requested for overtime if you go back to 103 you'll see the same was requested in 2023 it says None was spent in 2023 I can't imagine that being the case because I know I've seen you guys at night time a gazillion times well honestly I haven't been authorized to use it so the time has been G has any over time has gone in as you know for comp time what do you mean yeah explain that to us I don't understand why not what what does that mean I'm sorry so so um when when employees work um more time than their hours there's a choice of either being paid in terms of dollars or being paid in terms of comp time and it really is the employees Choice having said that um if we only have $1,000 you know they could make that choice for for up to $1,000 then after that they'd have to do comp time because we would or we wouldn't be able to offer the overtime so often times in in um we we certainly urge employees to use comp time uh or to select comp time if so what happens she's not authorized to use it what does that mean well I'm not sure exactly we'll have to have conversation about that in terms of of what the perceptions are of that it's not it's not not something that we you know deny anybody the the use of overtime we certainly encourage the use of comp time but that's that's a different so I think the councilor give your explanation please by what you mean by authorized I didn't know that was an option to use overtime that wasn't my understanding okay so yeah go ahead Council how much comp to if people were to leave then we have if so if they left terminated their employment with us and they had comp hours we would have to pay out that comp yeah time you do have to pay that out there is a cap on it okay first off there's lot everything we're talking about again this is this is all mechanical you know there's there's there's laws that tell you know the employee employee wants to do comp time they have the right to do it with nothing we can do up to a certain up to a Lim they can do it uh up to 240 hours at any given time they can they can have booked uh unless you're Public Safety in which case it's 480 hours okay so a regular employee is 240 hours Max on comptown correct and so or that yeah comp time that you that comp 240 hours into your bank okay so if I left and I'm a regular civil servant employee irregardless of my title and I had 240 hours of comp time then that means that our municipality has to cut them a check for whatever their hour hourly wage is at 240 hours is that correct that's correct and right it's just for clarify it's not the wage they were earning when they earned the comp time it's the w w the current wage cash out yeah okay and so then if I'm if I recall and maybe I'm confused or mis rep maybe I remember seeing a sheet on all of our employees like the salary where it shows how much comp time each of our employees do we have that it's not just comp time and it's a uh um just it's it's all all time that that are I think I'm sorry councilwoman I didn't hear you I said that I said that it had other time he's correct had like vacation time time all their time right my recollection in the budget though is that there was a page somewhere the budget like when when we publish this year's introduced budget there'll be a page in there for that but we've seen that before and every Year's budget I didn't see it is it in this somewhere no no no in the in the formal budget final bu can you send it then M uh Mr gross I'm sorry you send before then or do we have to wait for the final budget I'm sorry I didn't I could not can you send it to us before we get to the final budget it's it's online if you guys if you go on on to the website to the the budget Pages all the budgets are up there and I mean I can send it to you too the point is is it's it's available and but where in the budget is it um page what page tell us what page because I don't remember seeing it in this one it's it's not in the version it's not in the version he's talking about the filed versions if we go to the filed versions but I I don't I'm just asking for where it is I'll send it out to you but and that'll then that it'll be the same sheet in every budget um so I just want to state with regard to um overtime in the Senior Center Senior uh Services Department uh obviously the mayor um is our chief executive and makes those decisions um I am of the mindset that uh the directors need to be able to manage their Department in a way that makes sense for them um and if it makes sense to pay overtime versus comp time then I feel like you should be able to do that I don't know what I can do to be helpful in that regard um I don't know if my colleagues would support that as well uh but generally speaking in this particular case given the number of times I I've seen you and members of your department on weekends and at night uh I would certainly want to see um you have the the ability to use the overtime and for us it's important because we need to understand how to fund it um and so if there's going to be a significant change in overtime you know we need to know um and if if there's something that we're doing today that's creating a greater cost for us tomorrow we need to know uh as well so um you know that that's my commentary on that I'm I'm sure the mayor will is watching paying attention but certainly Mr gross you can convey those thoughts as well bag there's no years of service listed on the chart it's there it they have it lower on her other yeah same number 5.71 because her name's broken down a couple times she she gets off that's part of the offset too builds other do you like that what is that that's that 16,000 the offset right is is how you're that's 10,000 for the um um senior liability Grant and 68 is is a grant okay okay so you don't you don't you're not splitting your time with um any with the health department at all you're not using no okay so I have a question yes ma'am so what I don't see in here so any of the overtime time so when you do programming and I've seen other people assist but they're not on this list are they from the recck that sometimes you get people to assist and I don't want to say the name not from the health department but I've seen are they volunteers we have a lot of volunteers to work with okay yes so those are volunteers that come different I mean not employees here we use other organizations that um I don't want to say on here right she was part but maybe she's not maybe she's yeah we'll avoid usern names it's not a big deal okay I don't have any other staff than assisted here okay but I'm saying you don't get racked staff sometimes or no like when to seen your picnic if you did they would that if like at the pool like I've seen some other people out of their particular budget not right so like at the pool like lifeguard staff is at the pool during our picnic no no no no so for example one I could say because I know the department they would come from like the health office uh or something like so correct yes so at the senior picnic that is one time that the health department staff helps us okay so they're coming from the health department correct okay and the police department sends and fire department come and they're they're representing their departments so as far as programming goes with the program and you've been doing a lot of programming which is great um has all that been calculated in here you're good like do you need any additional assistance for any additional programming I know the senior uh I'd like to see department has been okay but back to that point where what is it going to go to just not a not not a lawn item increase the seniors have really been disproportionately taxed with the sore bill they are a large percentage of the population um the needs for communications for transportation and for enhanced programming have been there for a decade and you're doing an incredible job with the limited resources you have um but I would like to see some more money is allotted for transportation because as we have more of these programs there are a lot of seniors who can't get there and as you know I've been getting seniors together who have been coming to me who want to go to oath who want to do different things I know that the cat Center programming that you've done has been phenomenal and there are a lot of people talking to me about what are we going to do next year there are some other ideas that some of us have to enhance that programming at the cat at the cat Center which we will be talking to you about and I'd like to see your budget increased like $220,000 to accommodate some of those needs so to to that point Council woman that's last year we gave you no money yeah right but but again we have to be consistent in the application of an increase and you just stated you want while you are saying increase in transportation is there a true need not just on based on what you have heard or people are coming to you saying but we need to re use real Diagnostics so for instance there's programming that she has are people calling you and saying I need transportation and we're not able to provide it so if we're going to allocate additional funding for transportation then we need to understand that there's a real need for that and her department has she has not come to us and said I need additional funding for transportation transportation is under the health department so the is not she's doing the newsletter because we've just begun to identify and doing she's been doing a newsletter that's that's already something so let's let's clarify right I'm looking at page 105 retired citizens program operational expense um are you okay I you know there's a couple things that jump out at me one is miscellaneous uh I'm I I don't know can you tell me what that is right so first I do want to say that you know these you know these budget lines have been here for forever so you know I started five years ago with these budget lines so um we work with them um but miscellaneous covers the things that those other lines don't cover um so are is that programming it is it's programming primarily or exclusively uh okay so I mean it's the things that support programming it might be an Entertainer it might be the extra entertainment we pull in at the picnic or it might be um a yoga instructor I instructors we do pretty well with the instruction line but um food is very important at a lot of our events so um that is a that and that really helps with the turnout it helps with the um you know community building and all that so that would be that's a big example but that's where to your point councilwoman if if you're trying and and again we're not just throwing money away no we're but we want to understand how the budget can better reflect our values and make some adjustments if you wanted to make adjustments for programming it would be on this line 70 miscellaneous line am I understanding you correctly director and that gives me the flexibility to use it in these different ways but to your point yes I mean that miscellaneous line is helping us create our programming and inreased it by 5,000 this year which is good that is that adequate enough for all the what we're hearing from our Council I think they need more based upon the events that I've come to I mean we're doubling for the gifted program for the kids no we haven't doubled anything we haven't done anything director director if you need it more I I would also be supportive of increasing uh the dollar mounts and finding it in here for you I mean if we could give you know block grants to churches and five one sees I think we can support our seniors all right those are two different buckets of money but um so so to your point so you you're finding a very friendly counsil I appreciate it um well deserve but what we what I will say is the same thing that we said to Mr kho um we need to know what if there is a request what that request is going to cover what it would be spent on it it doesn't have to be down to the to the you know Penny right but do need to have a ballpark understanding of what a request would be you know one of the things that we've and you've helped us uh understand this councilman celino councilman Scarpa um one of the things that we are aware of is uh you know how many of our seniors want to participate in all of these things they're not all in senior buildings some of them are more difficult to reach uh and in other towns while they have senior centers uh we generally just don't so we don't have us space to to get that data and get everybody together at one time to find out so it's a lot harder to provide I I think what we're saying is if you can give us an understanding of how that would be spent we can consider it yes um as we look to make some changes to the budget and and I could just add that you know definitely food and pro for programming would be one thing but also we want to extend the cats programming and you know we've said we don't have the staff to be there we want to extend the programming at the Toby cat that's going to take some staffing that's correct Staffing would be helpful in that so that's area where you could enhance your budget and we could approve and In fairness to the administration because I don't want the seniors to think we're not funding them there is and again $110,000 more than last year in this budget uh 5,000 went for miscellaneous and a 5,000 which is also well- needed senior Li ility nurse uh that's compared to some of the other the point the point being is no that's a good thing I just want it noted that the director did a 10,000 and whether she needs more at this point for last year we had a very different budget and everybody walked away you know needing funding and didn't get it so I'm sure there because I could see the look in our face you know this year we want to give you money so well right and we've done a great job with the budget that we've had you know more budget helps us maybe subsidize more I can speak to Luna stage and OAC as well um I we have a very successful relationship with Luna stage I work closely with ar Laura um AR yes thank you Ari Laura Keith and um we have a collaboration with our neighboring communities we use our Jitney to bring our residents there she adds in a special older adult mattina and what we have found is that we really get a larger number of participants when we can provide those complimentary tickets so at the end of the we had our um we we attended the final um show that they offered and it's our our residents love it we provide a little Refreshments there it's a everyone it's a little bit of a Love Fest we all really enjoy it but we really recognize it would be more helpful to have more funding to support our residents because it just makes it easier and uh more appealing when they're have competing needs to attend the Arts and I just want to add that you know I recently coordinated an effort to get the busing for the seniors to go to OAC to the Rosemary Clooney event and I can't tell you I was shocked I talked to Laura about this there were a number of seniors who said to me I will go if it's free and I I won't go if it's not free and the price was $5 right so it is important reality offering services to our seniors and you'd be surprised how many cannot afford to do just minimal can I add something we have to also like realize like the budget for Senior Services is very small compared to other departments and divisions in the municipality and I think that we can find at least like 30 or 40 even $50,000 somewhere in the budget because you know there's going to be you know some wiggle room there to help this department so I think we can have to wait and see where we can move some things around and do a much more holistic rearrangement if we want to add that much um but I I agree because we haven't talked about the department where I garbage yet we still got the administration and finance to get through which is not a small part of the budget right right I do have a couple questions on 105 though uh still so um bus rental that is for that is not for the jitne that's correct okay it's for vanderhof we typically use and that's when we go um down Charters down the shore down to the free concerts at PNC up to um uh hund hun Hills do we do Atlantic City trips anymore we haven't that's could be an option that's not one weever that on our older adult Advisory Board she wants to go to AC all right and then what is this line summer concerts right so that's one where it may fund another kind of Entertainer that's not necessarily specific to summer concerts that's an example of kind of what I was talking about okay all right so uh just in general just back to where we were a moment ago um uh when you do present whatever it is that you're going to send to us um one please get it to us as quickly as possible two um you know if it were like you know a Luna stage or an aspac we're recycling we're strengthening the local organizations too so it it has a you know an additional bang for its buck so to speak so those things that would be particularly attractive to me um and I'm sure some of my colleagues are are are saying as well uh so you know when you give us that information just wanted to give you that as context sure and they're happening and they're good programs with both so I'm happy to speak to that more and then uh you know I I heard my colleague talk about um Staffing so that impacts the budget differently than programming um and so you know I I just wanted to let you know that I I personally would be hesitant on that but may be part-timers but um that's I would that the impact is different um and if there if there is a need let us know what the need is and we can kind of start thinking about it over there be your overtime yeah or it could be the overtime number um and uh and as my colleagues think about if if we are going to increase this budget we should think about increasing the overtime we know just from our own personal experience that um this department is putting in more than ,000 a year worth of overtime um all right any other questions colleagues Council MCG Michael for Director Van Dyke want to thank you very much director thank you for you do a fantastic job you're ire department does thank you for your patience all right thank you director thank you for all you do Mr gross who do we have next um I guess we need to get into Administration Finance is that our last one Hallelujah yeah instruction as well all right so direct us to what pages you'd like us to be on well I guess we should start absolutely while you get together page six page six all right we're gonna take a just a quick two-minute Break um low my colleagues moment to refresh themselves and then we'll be right back um thank you West Orange thank you sir welcome back West Orange um we are uh preparing to go into the next portion of the budget but um what we're doing you you don't want to finish it up while we're having this conversation yeah so uh what we were discussing was impact on the budget of uh making some of the adjustments that we've been entertaining uh my colleagues brought up the fact that uh the Garbage Contract is going to have an impact on the budget if we don't go with what has been recommended um I stated and some of my colleagues I think all of us are opposed to option four uh which would be the budget right Mr gross will will uh have to give us the data on what the impact to choosing a different option will be depending upon the option we choose but there does not appear to be support on the Town Council uh for reducing the service from two uh pickups per week to one um and while we still have some work to do on the carts whether we go with the cart system or not um you know that's that's kind of where we were in that discussion um if you want to continue now actually I I think your original suggestion is probably better let's get through the finance and administration because this is actually a part of it yeah and the garbage is one of those sheets in there so um yeah I would like to know the impact of the budget if we went with number two so uh Mr gross you the the ball is in your court we really don't have a presentation per se I think we start at the beginning and run through whatever questions you may have uh in reference to that the section by section or however you want start page six do anybody have an I uh MacBook charger oh no sorry no Mr ban no is that an iPad no you have uh I you try you have your is that an iPad um I think Microsoft no it's Microsoft what do you need iPad charger anybody have an iPad charger new have the 15 can the 15 the iPhone 15 is that the big joint it's the USB SE yeah can I use that but then does who has a block yeah you need can you give me a minute before you start so I can go to my car oh you the best thank you cuz my laptop is down let me just make sure I have the block first because I may not have the new one yeah I don't have oh yeah do I do um yes thank you so my laptop is down I need to charge it in order to uh participate thank you Council Mr gross do we have any ideas on what the impact of the budget would be if we chose a different garbage concept I'm I'm looking at the specifics I I have I haven't been online since the the last time that Mr C put together um process but I will tell you that by the time you implement this it won't affect this well at best if you're it's going to be a quarter maybe less so you know so you're talking about whatever the annual difference is it's it's a quarter of that or four for Less so it definitely you have to figure out how to deal with it um for next year yeah next well that's next year's when when would you'd have the the obviously the big hit understood ask some question um do you want to wait for Council Williams uh we're just going to wait another moment for Council woman Williams she is getting me a charger so that I can charge now I'm gonna shout him sure you know extension I got a I got [Music] so I am not it's not the long one so I don't know if is not work well Char okay we can have that conversation here you can share my all right see there's a block in here there's a thing thank you very much Council you know change seats you want to change seats coun just plug in here no this one yeah she she's got one coming so we're gonna plug in right here [Music] you get the debate in so I I have children I'm going to throw under the bus right now they take these cords and you never see them again could find mine today too my son's in Amsterdam and then don't put it back thank you very yeah I hear you to BR for the zoom audience we are in an extended break audio is live and we will be coming back to resume the budget hearing momentarily this have like 10 blocks no they still my I just said the same thing these kids uh yes I hope she is it lit yep okay all right so it'll get there yep it's plugged in all right so we're on page six Mr gross is that correct do we go over this this is the mayor's office mayor salary and wages on page six for us yeah apologize I got sidetracked looking into the garbage that's all right right all right are we back on the air Mr we we haven't been oh somebody said we were muted that was before okay yeah on books this okay see we can start at page six and then I think go Section by section and any questions you have so um colleagues if uh I mean I don't have any real questions on on page six um at least not on my written copy and I don't think I have any on the computer either uh anybody have any questions on six no um on page six I'm always interested in um the salary for our staff including yep but we're not at that page yet but well I mean it's reflected here the 556 I think and uh Mr gross you'll correct us if we're wrong that's because uh the uh keyboard and clerk one is part of the year right and keybo well it's a change in position so there's there's there's slippage on that as well right so this new one is not making what the old one was making right that's and so one of the questions that I had um that I haven't seen is do we have salary guide chart for all of our positions sure where is that the council at least once a year and sometimes more than that adopts it so it's it's it's online with with the uh uh all the council agendas every every staff member is in there when we do it salary ordinance correct yes yeah so most recent one okay could you do that pre and did you there was an email I sent and I asked it we have this and I referenced what Milburn the salary chart that says for keybor and clerk one the position starts at 30,000 the range salary that's the salary ordinance salary okay salary actually actually shows the you know the the ladders you know actual steps so that you can see you know like I say it's very mechanical yes and and we would like I would like to certainly see that just before we go let's make sure councilwoman G councilwoman G Michael can participate can you hear us okay councilwoman I can hear you thank you so much perfect you have the floor Council yeah is there any is there any desire to increase um the the mayor's salary the mayoral salary or the and we're not to that for the council yet no we're not at the council yet but um you know uh someone going to is there is there an appetite for increasing the mayor's salary to 30,000 so just so that we understand the debate here um the mayor's base pay is 20 less than 25,000 is it is supposedly allegedly a part-time job it is not a part-time job it's not no um and with pay at that level for the amount of work that has to be done it will affect uh if it hasn't already and I believe it already has um the ability for those that would like to perform in the role they just can't the pay is not enough for what they have to give up uh you know to to do the job so increasing it uh at least theoretically would allow us to uh better compensate someone for the role and you know this is a a tight budget year but um you know that wasn't on my thought process I'll tell you but but I hear you I hear you and understand the logic thank you I don't think like five or $10,000 on 25 is going to make a difference of who will take the job I'd like to see somebody take the job who really wants to make a difference and is not doing it for the money and I I agree with councilwoman Scarpa to be honest I don't think we should be increasing the mayor's salary or or ours this is a labor of love we you know we know what it is going in and I don't think that's going to make that much of a difference um you know we're each and every single one of us are busy we have these long late night meetings often and we do it because we love the community we want to represent the people and have make West Orange a better future I don't think that we should be increasing salaries I think that extra money can go towards Senior Services right for exactly or other you know for programming or whatever it is or other departments that need it like Parks might need more money so well said that's my thoughts I agree coun well don't ask me I did school board for 10 years at zero doll lab so I'm okay leaving it all the way it is yeah all right I think you've heard the uh the will that with even without me weighing in that's uh that's three three votes uh okay so we're going to move past one uh past Page Six we're on page eight any comments questions or concerns on page eight nothing on page eight except for um we don't have in of we don't put anything in the budget for training where does training come from training in the business administrative um fining okay as well as well as in in certain uh departmental budgets as well but there's for across the board training or for General training municipalities so if we wanted to do some sensitivity training if we wanted to do some anti-bias training townwide or with our commissions that would fall under which training budget mayor well where you put the money is is one thing the you know the mayor would then make decisions of you know how how to proceed and do that it's not that we would just pay for it wherever you put the money got so if we wanted to do that because it's not in there now we could do it under the mayor's budget if we wanted to add say $20,000 for training sure used used to be there yeah and you and I think that's something that we need to consider um we just had we just had training that we spent $50,000 on a couple years ago when uh 2021 what train I like it in 2020 and I so Le of municipalities too has training it's not the same when you come in and I'm not talking about training for just us I'm talking about training for our entire Administration so what we did in 2020 um was we came in and we had someone do training bias training um for the entire Administration there has been no there has been no training since then and there was no accountability and no followup because during that training there was no requirement that you be on camera so we don't know that people actually participated in that training and to what extent um the impact may be I think that type of training especially for the the people Personnel who have to De with the public should be ongoing and there should be some type of Workshop or I go to you know I have a lot of that so to her point though the training that we do here is specific to to us the situations that we deal with here not general for municipalities and elected officials or employees of town hall uh and we have had a year um and we still have some challenges with regard to how some of our boards and commissions are operating and the level of intensity I'll say it that way okay with which they're operating and in in in in addition um in addition to that so there's that part of of the training um but in addition to that we have a significant amount of litigation where employees end up suing us um if there is something we can do on the front end training supervisors department heads on uh management whatever these things that could avoid getting into a situation where we either you know we have a disal employee that would be HR so where's your HR budget we we don't have an HR we don't have an HR budget yeah off we don't have an HR department do we and we we we and we do an an awful lot of training out the a lot a lot of that type of training that we do well the police and fire we know get training we know they do they have a specific training budget to that point in their I mean training line item the general training that for instance you talk about that you do in terms of um um General overall employee training and interaction of employees you know that that type for that is all provided by the gy but for instance we just had a promotion of a new person who came from the department and now their management it's different being a worker and an employee and then managing a department where is the training that we as an Administration provided so that they can be successful there is a there's some things that they may be able to implement that they've never thought about from a managerial perspective where are we with that training so to answer that particular question that particular employee um he that employee has a a license that's specific to that particular position that he took in preparation CER and it was it's the one it's CPM program the certified public manager um and and successfully completed that and that was part of some of the reasons that we were looking at it did we pay for that or did they have to pay for that independent I believe he he it was paid for by us okay so that's where I'm trying to go it's a good point I mean but what but part of the problem is is that because staffing has been so difficult it's been difficult to release employees to go away for a week or you know three or four days o over a period of time um so with the when the Staffing gets back up to we could start before the fact you know for you know this there's there cpnw is for public works but there's also just plain CPM which is for General management so you know once we we um get to a point where we we we can afford to have be without the staff um we we certainly can offer more of that and I think it's a good idea and and and to uh Mr gross's Point well with the GIF we have online classes that we have sent out we we got to sent out some more to our staff and we were able to do so um and we've had a l because of Staffing right now and um we're going to get back into that because we last year we I think we provided well over 2500 hours worth of training to our employees online stuff they could do under and was at Leisure because it's outside of police and fire outside of police and fire yes I'm talking I'm talking the non-uniform staff particularly in in town hall and then we uh and then then our like our construction and or people with licenses they have to also do CL so they have so and we make sure that we get their licenses so that we know that they're up to date and we permit them to go and they're permitted to go those type ones are permitted to go while they're on duty most of them are online now the the state has gotten away from in person so we We Make them set up at their desk or or a convenient area and they and so this way that their licenses are updated as well and to that point um if I can just finish we had a situation where we wanted training and it was at an expense so where would we as a council I think it's really important as well because we have a constant turnover possibly that we do some in-house training even for us as elected officials even though we have the league when was the last time all of us went to the league yeah attended all of the classes and attended the classes I mean and you can only attend so many exactly so I think we need to really look at some in-house training for us as elected officials um parliamentary procedure um certainly rules and regulations on governance on budgeting you know those are some of the things that I think should be not necessarily mandatory but opportunities that would help us govern and I would say to you also and I and I don't think that's a bad idea to have it in house stuff but I know like if you go to Ruckers Contin the Ruckers they have a lot of those courses online so that that's fine we just need to put it in the budget so that we can actually take them yeah and typically the the courses are based on the amount of hours that are required you know the fee is based on the course hour so if we were to take an ex as an example most of those courses cost $200 to take um I've taken a couple of them online salary gu classes you should take absolutely so if we were to do that and we were to put money in the budget for us there's five of us $200 per class I mean that doesn't even give us a lot of training so even if we were to put $5,000 for training for us that's not a lot that's maybe five classes for each of us well four classes for each of us but I think that's something that would help us at least govern more efficiently and effectively and understand the rules well there's no line item on us so that used to well well again so we few of us been to the league against the Ruckers I know and that Madam clerk has put in to pay for us where does that come out of does that come out of the Ba's uh budget because is an HR under the ba say that again I'm sorry isn't HR what you call HR not uh under the Ba's line item because I know I've taken training classes before that you paid we we do have money there there's nothing that says that the council could not decide to put money in its own budget for that so I I would like to see us do that it would make sense to have it in our budget not well there's no line item on our bu well we can easily add it yeah I would like to add that something we could yeah no no no we're not doing that now I thought we just yeah put that on the list have the Garbage Contract but at least $5,000 would be $1,000 for each of us and if if we're going off of the cost now at $200 per class then that gives each of us an opportunity to take four classes throughout the year yeah we should also um consider it for the administration three this year it's only one a quarter yeah that's only one class a quarter yeah they're repetitions well why you guys are taking notes we should also consider the administration for training too okay that's all I have so I wanted money for training all right so um councilman scarper you were going to make a comment oh I was just going to say that you know I do all of these State trainings with the for the schools and there's a lot on all this bias and all these different I and I don't know if it's free I would imagine it's pretty free or low cost but and I find them very effective to do it online rather than h no training I don't know what's available from the state you know and what the cost is School District's paying for all that trust me yeah no training is free they're paying for you to go do all that training even when we do it through the chips it's coming from the money we pay the chips right no training is free and just just so you know I'm looking it up right now um October 16th and 19th is the powers and duties of the municipal governing body being held by Ruckers at $200 a class right yeah so that's you know something for your consideration that's theing one listed for elected officials they're all host of elected officials are they online yes that's online that's better because yeah they're all online everything's online they don't do anything in person very rarely I I can send the other stuff later to all right so please do Mr moraldo so we're good on on the mayor's uh budget we're I don't even know what page it is that's on page eight page eight so now we're on page nine which will be Town Town Council right and so if we can add a line here I'll be very happy again if we speak to um I also wanted to recommend an increase to $155,000 for each of us and if I can just remind everyone um that was if I'm not mistaken and you guys would probably know better than I but that was the salary prior to the reductions that were made or was it even higher than the 15 no it was reduced it was seven no well since we've been on it hasn't been no not us this is 10 years ago 10 years ago I think be 15 or 17 I thought it was get benef right I think it was 15 but I would like to recommend that we go back to 15 I stand by uh my comments earlier when you wanted to increase the mayor's salary uh you know stien and I don't think we should increase ours either I agree yeah there we go all right I mean listen I I admire your tenacity your persistence it's been three years I'm some things I'm just gonna keep four years actually now four years in a row so I get it um and it and the same argument is there I do understand the logic this is not to be funny if we want people quity people we can't run for the office exactly I and I I appreciate the sentiment but again I'm not saying you need to I'm just saying once we have the cont impact originally that would have been I could have maybe uh been more thoughtful about that but again we after knowing their support for us to move from option four on that contract uh we're gonna have to add money back in it's going to be a lot of money we're gonna have to add back know Surplus is right now Mr well it it is it is consistent with I don't have the exact number for you tonight but consist to what it's been on year after year we we gen we generated um probably a little bit more not probably definitely a little bit more this year this past year than we did the year before especially with all the increasing so it's more than five million oh yeah it was it was more than 5 million last year it was 5.6 why is that number in my head oh it was only 13874 yeah 13 but five I don't know why I was saying the budget the Surplus was 5.6 I think that's 12 oh they did a 10% I won't dispute that stupid it's in that for okay well if if if can can that just be a consideration then if we don't have to T if we don't have to exit out based on where we land with everything else if we have the Surplus to increase ours to 15 so I I have a difficult time increasing hours and not increasing the mayor well I want to consider both I hear you I he I I I I don't so yeah I mean if we if if if we go down that road we have to be fair I I agree trying I haven't seen few hours and not do I want to do both I would just like to say I'm not in this for the money and $2,000 or $3,000 is not going to give us the opportunity to get a different quality person doing this job I think it's really important that we get people who are in this seat who are not doing it for the money you're not doing it for the money even at $155,000 you're not doing it for the money but the compensation we give back to the community the 12,000 I'm just looking for a little additional compensation because everything that I make plus more goes back into this community it does not go into my pocket so I'm not looking to compensate I I make enough money doing my real job but we should be compensated in some capacity so I and I I don't think it's about necessarily us like I I count myself fortunate that I can serve in this capacity absolutely right if I was still working for a bank I would not be able to do it did I could not do it I would get fired from my job the amount of time I spent as a council person this is true right which is which is why which is why I'm making this recommendation it is not about the money and it has never been about the money so it's not the extra two to $3,000 is just having a decent compensation so that we can give back to the community because I donate we have a lot of ask by a lot of other departments and i' rather fulfill them and if next year maybe we could have this conversation we're not voting on it now just look that is a consideration and um so duly noted and uh and I do think it is a legitimate thing um it's not necessarily about I think with the exception of two of us the the three of us have some control over our calendar you have a 9 to5 for eight 10 months out of the year um Council MC Michael has a 9-5 all year long so you have a little less flexibility over your calendar if we want to encourage more people that um are going to have to make a a cost benefit analysis of whether they can give that time if we want people to be able to do it they've got to be compens I don't think a few thousand is going to make it we got like 10 people running for Council seat so that's the other AR eight people in so it doesn't work this year clearly the 125 ain't scaring nobody this year yeah ain't SC nobody this year right all right so moving moving on though uh we we're are we good on uh Town Council uh operating operations and expense yes permanent property I don't what that is I need to understand what that is it's it increased $560 but I don't even know what that is 112 line 112 on page 11 560 is what was spent last year and that's what the recommend so what is that permanent property it's on it's on our operating budget Town Council what you got for Mr gross what antiquation I don't know right we we can research that okay and then the increase for $199,000 on taping Council meetings um can we explain that please yes there's a lot more meetings a lot more meetings okay but how much do we pay I'm sorry okay but how much do we pay per meeting is my question okay so we pay for the moderator okay what's that amount uh well it's three hit the base is $350 and another $100 to process it and put it on yeah YouTube okay um there's another fee that was added $65 an hour past 11 o'clock for Mr Fagan let's not say names I'm sorry sorry you don't care I'm just messing with you so I think you know my question along that was it was requested for 19,000 we spent 14 two last year we budgeted 148 we spent 142 it was requested at 19 but 14 was recommended by the mayor so I'm trying to understand that Mo mostly to to allow the the council to debate um whether or not there is any um adjustments you'd like to make in in in in that process uh really it's it allows it triggers a discussion amongst you all about the the service and and whether or not you want to continue it or what level if you want to look at changing it in any way to for savings it's it and if not then clearly you know those costs will remain it also it also has to do with how many meetings you have and if you have extra meetings and um and and it's not just you know yeah I love to kill $65 goes to the board meetings and and so there's to the extent that you have some input into that as well as to whether or not the boards you know should be meeting online or not online again I'm not I'm not giving you I'm not saying giving you the positions on that I'm saying it's that's the debate about that that probably should be5 is controllable by us as long as we don't go over 11: PM meetings correct correct okay so we can eliminate that just by saying we're going to have a hard stop at 11 o'clock yeah good luck um so I'm teasing a council woman but yeah yeah you know we've had a rough like the 11 is a gift that's a half a day spend a lot of time lately together yes I'm gonna I'm gonna put a line item for Pizza on here so I eat so generally speaking though just I think the position of at least the majority of the council I understand it uh is more uh opportunity on Zoom even if we don't have for counil for the council not necessarily for the commission right is this think this out I have a I have a question about that when you're done however however if you know you you already have taken some steps in terms of that the there's no the not having the back and forth so you could ask the the administration to look at what opportunities there may be out there to make it make the zoom more mechanical and not not uh or not as labor intensive as it is to to decrease the cost I mean that that's just something that you guys could think about I have a question along that line yeah um my understanding is that the library has this ability to do the zoom at you know relatively low cost or no cost what what library our new library has the ability to do this they were they do not we we we sent our IT director up there to look at that facility because it is a new facility can handle large crowds but the system they have is called the owl system I think which is nothing compared to what we have here um and it it does not support multiple microphones it doesn't support the um the it of of transmitting and things of that nature so we yeah I was thinking more for the commissions like the human relations commission I mean they're supposed to relate human to human and they're all on Zoom I believe you might be able to handle we don't we don't control those boards but I believe that that that that size of board um may be able to utilize that but that's something that the board those boards would have to explore but I can tell you right now that that that that meeting room up there and what their technology is nothing compared to what we have here well we budget for those boards so maybe some of those boards need to we need to look at having them go to the library to do that rather than spending a a lot of money we don't provide that for them yeah we don't provide that for them here in addition to that yeah we did we did during you know Co but I would but they're all on Zoom a lot of them no so if you're speaking specifically about the HRC they do a hybrid they do a zoom as well as imperson in town hall in the conference room but I don't think we should dictate how the HRC chooses to do their meetings unless you're sitting in their meetings and you're listening to what's going on so that's not our role I could be wrong but I think we provide them a zoom I think they administer themselves I don't think we're pay none of these none of these costs are for that okay and they don't even they don't we don't they don't record their me they only record their meetings for minutes they don't record their meetings to put them on any form or source so it's not costing us anything to have any additional we pay for the ability to add Zoom that's that's for we share that amongst all departments that's yeah I thought there was an additional cost for every because I was told that the older adults Advisory Board couldn't be on zoom and the seniors really need Zoom because a lot of them are immobile or they can't get to meetings and everybody was saying that you're talking about interaction well it doesn't have to have interaction but let's look at the in so that isn't we may need to address that in the older adults Advisory board or in some of these other boards and commissions but with regard to how it affects the budget right because you like we're we're we make a progress like we're on the last one let's not lose momentum now let's get done guys yeah so uh I don't even remember so uh that waser we have a question about we'll come back to that and what we were how we got into this discussion was talking about meting so $199,000 we have I think we have that 5,000 that we can play with I don't know I don't believe if we no no no they recommended 142 what's in the what's in the budget is 142 okay okay okay great so with that 142 that's the same thing we spent last year correct however my question becomes we were we paying $65 for overtime last year not that I'm aware of so then the 142 oh we got to make sure there's nothing may not be enough if we now have an added cost of $65 for overtime it won't be enough so then how are we going to correct that the the the zoom moderator is going to walk out at 11 o'clock and leave us on our own we can shut off we can't do that you can legally you don't have to tape audio or video I mean people will go crazy if you do that but leg I me but at some point we got to I don't think we should do that I think we should end at 11: which I'm fine with because I already told you guys going forward I can't stay past midnight I'm done I think should 11 yeah and while we've done a better job this year getting out at a reasonable time we still don't get out at 11 I mean we're not getting out at 11 last night was but what can we but what can we got out at 12 but what can we do seriously guys what can we do so so this is a different um conversation but structurally what we could do is have uh an a a a public meeting that um is that allows for public interaction with the uh Community differently than what we do in our council meeting when we have hot button issues public comment can go an hour hour and a half or more and then we respond you know and then that's another hour once you get all five of us if it's a hot button issue if there are issues like that we have you know once a quarter or um you know once a quarter where we have a a public session uh or what and so to get rid of some of the public comment that comes into our council meeting or we could have a business meeting uh many boards and commissions have business meetings where you don't hear from the public you just handle the business and and that would allow us to get through you know hopefully process a decent amount of the work obviously the administration would have to comply and provide us with the work ahead of time so that we could get through it um and then in our regular public meetings you know it's just a vote up or down to memorialize it if that's needed but you don't have to deal with a lot of the work that we do but sometimes when you're speaking to that those are communities where they also have committees no they're they're also where they have meetings during the day so that is true too there are some and those are generally speaking those ones that have them during the day those are full-time jobs that's they have a way bigger salary than we do so we know we can't go to that but to solve the problem tonight we're probably not going to do what I what I think we should do and I I appreciate you know where you're going with this we do need to make some changes structurally to how we handle the people's business so that we can get out at a reasonable time absolutely yeah let's let's kind of as we work through these next two weeks because what we're hoping to tonight is get through the budget have uh two weeks to kind of for you know Talk Amongst ourselves what our adjustments are going to be so that we can introduce at our next council meeting uh vote on what those amendments are going to be so that they can get it back to us and still get have a halfway decent opportunity at meeting the state deadline or close to it um well the deadline for the meeting material for the next meeting is next Wednesday yeah so well no what we would be doing is introducing the mayor's budget and then we would vote on on Tuesday night but even that's St yeah yeah no we get it and and we're not gonna make the 19th even doing that right because we're not gonna have a council another council meeting before the oh no it's July 19th July yeah we're not gonna have another council meeting correct we gonna have one before the 19th so we will certainly blow past the 19th but if we we may only be one maybe two me is to introduce not to adopt right so oh that's right by the the problem that I see and is is if we don't get depends on how far we get but but like I said if if for some reason we can't even get it ready for the next meeting by the deadlines that that we need to uh we may have to call for a special meeting just for introduction sometime before the 19 but why would we not be able to introduce the mayor's Budget on the 19th I'm sorry on on our next meet at our next meeting the mechanical process of putting together the document is take takes takes quite a while okay so that's not on us that's on you yeah yeah yeah I yeah so I think Mr gr all us what you're hearing from the council is what we're what we're interested in doing this meeting our deadline we can do it introduce the mayor's budget so that that we meet the state requirement we can offer our amendments that night and I would hope that all of our amendments would be offered that night so that you can then take that back but we'd still be in compliance with what the state has asked us to do by the 19 only keep in mind that there will be a there will be another amendment anyway because there's always something that the state says well you need to do this you need to do that you know whatever right so but if we can get that done and done by the first meeting in octob in uh August uh we only have one meeting in July two two July 23rd and July 9th and two in August this year right okay that's what I thought all right so that's what we want to do so please if you can prepare the mayor's budget to be introduced at our next council meeting and we will be prepared Council mcber Michael as well to offer our amendments on July 9th perfect yay all right so moving right along um so we did taping Council meetings uh we made the request to clarification on personal property uh what is this codification I that's the ordinances that you pass they have to be codified and then they send us the hard copies of them and they're also online they put them online so everybody can see them and it's very expensive to do so last year we spent 5100 of the anticipated 89 what is the likelihood that we'll maintain that this year mam right so I just paid I just did a requisition today for I believe it was 13,000 in change it's done twice a year so and that's because it's been a very active council with a lot of ordinances so yeah we we processed quite a bit yeah all right so you're already at 13 and we're in essentially July correct so why why wouldn't we increase the right for sure so to what oh I don't know because your request was nine roughly yeah you're already at 13 y you know any of that from previous commitment I don't believe so no anything because I can get let me get the bill all right so what I think you should be prepared zth engineering being very active this year have a lot of Wars so uh whatever the reason is we've blown through the nine that she's yeah so we need to increase that so we're going to have to look I think at it was 12 630 engineering has been very busy which is a good thing we're getting St yeah and it's it includes uh land use as well as the main code so some of that paid is all that paid by you or some of that paid by clber I believe oh no that no comes out of and there's G to be more because they're doing that whole examination of the parking and the street parking and the signs and all that so she's going to be yeah bu very yeah we're going to need more money because that there's a lot of updating in our ordinances and then now with the the new uh planner too that's supposed to be updating zoning ordinances so yeah we're going to need some some money for that does anybody have any um tabs have any tabs what kind of tabs you know so you can I just my pages yeah page thank you thank you I got it yeah all right so we're clear on codification you know I think we should be considering moving that somewhere in the 20 range hopefully we won't spend that much but I think we need to be perod if we're already at 129 yeah all right um next page is litigation so this is to me very difficult can't get to my notes though in Char it's for and it's my laptop because I it happened earlier today too I don't know what what's going on it's charging it's just not it's got the battery sign are your battery may be going I hope not um so uh litigation yeah I guess Mr gross you're going to have to to to guide us here we budgeted 150 in 23 we spent 537 and the request is for 543 this year and that's the mayor's recommendation as well please help me understand yeah so so historically this is one of the lines that uh even though we would when we would run over the next year we would pull back um and if if we ran over again then we found money and did transfers and and that um with the changes we made in last year's budget in terms of cutting some of the the um surplus building uh out of it which which we will see the impact of that next in this year's budget when this year's um Surplus U is is determined because we have you know bu budget budgets have two-year life so it's it's about what happens the it takes two years to to expire and then that's when you your impact so the fact that we took the money out of last year's budget doesn't impact us until the till the 25 budget year um so there's not enough room in the budget to absorb um the everything that we always did absorb before um so this is an acknowledgement that this was an area that that we did that um and any you know the the thought process was to um we we have been spending this as you know we've sent you the the histories out that this is consistent with the amounts that we've spent in the past um it's um it's just the first time that we budgeted all up front so that's a that's difficult for me and uh you know we we did get that I think it was last year where we saw and I think for litigation uh it was somewhere around a million um which to me is ridiculous me to me it means we're doing something wrong if we're in that much litigation we're not doing something right um so I want to do the whatever it is that we need to do right the other thing is if we've been putting on the budget a lower number and then paying it out of surplus or other spaces in the budget we're not accurately I mean because we got that list last year the public didn't necessarily see it um we're not accurately presenting to the public what our legal expenses are so um I am I am like 543 that's crazy uh I am four going back to what was budgeted uh in 2023 which is 150 um and I think we need to figure out going back to what we were talking about before whatever the training is to avoid this because a lot of it is labor related um so we end up spending money on lawyers and then we spend money on on losing you know and then having to pay whatever it is you know we are ordered to pay whatever it is we're not doing right that's that's creating this cycle because you know other municipalities and you guys correct me if I'm wrong they're not they're not spending a m a million dollars on litigation Alone um I would like to well what we did we did do a survey and we we um sent that out to you and our our expenses are consistent with you know a b when you when you adjust by size and you look at the your the size of your budget what we're spending is consistent with and and lower and and on the low end of what other municipalities are spending when I with some other municipalities our legal fees were actually lower but at the end of the day what I would like to see because we're just making generalized statements based on a dollar number what I would really like to see with our litigation and I see it's broken down into general tax appeals labor matters but if we could just understand um and some type of pie chart where the bulk of the monies are going so for instance it doesn't break out in here litigation for property maintenance or any other um types of litigation so is it possible for us to know how these litigation dollars are being utilized or spent we can I can look and see what we can do okay so I I will tell you I have also checked with other municipalities and I've not gotten that same feedback when I tell folks we spend about a million dollars on litigation they're like really it's lot um like I said the school district I'll go check their budget but I remember it's hot I mean they may be doing something wrong too it's not it just something wrong you have you know you have a lot of Labor disputes with employees and the way even in the private sector now with the way things are going and with people Sue over um is is just insane so again let's get the data so we don't have to make accusations and just let's see it from there don't forget Oprah too there's Oprah matters this is litigation yeah but there's yeah we spend money so I mean the the the two that's that jumped out at me obviously as you can see on here our labor M labor and general labor we budgeted 125 we spent 322 General we budgeted 150 we spent 537 and those numbers oh we know we had a few you know cases that went on for quite some time that's an example to me of doing something wrong and I know y'all don't want to talk about it on on and the general I'm sure Oprah isn't included in that and that's there's a lot of money spent in Oprah sure 543,000 so between those two categories $865,000 between labor matters and general a I agree with council president that's an absorbant amount that that we are spending and I I would like to see the same as 2023 yeah so um you when you say the same as 2023 the same amount that's that that's that's written and if budged amount that's budgeted now yes because if they're going to spend more they should be coming to us and asking us because there is a reserve and there's is always extra money at the end of the budget wiggle room that's how we survive so um I mean they should be coming to us and approving things and making sure that we can continue to pay and know how much all of this is adding up to yearly not being surprised or having to ask for at the end of the year and find out that you know this is a lot of money that we're spending so my question then also becomes what is the check and balance when for instance if there is $150,000 and let's just use this as a perfect example how is the payout even for the 2023 537 274 I know we approved the bills but what is the mechanism that is the cut off 150,000 has been reached now we're going over in that budget I know you you pull the money from wherever you need to pull it from to pay it the bills that have to be paid but how do we know 150,000 has been spend you're now outside of what's permitted based on your budget like for instance this year we presented to you transfer resolutions to to the that was last last year yeah and we got it this year in like March or February right so it's it's being spent but we're not being made aware right until until after so again what is the trigger mechanism on any line item or budget so maybe not a line item but maybe a a department where is the mechanism that lets us know that this department has exceeded their budgetary requirements so that you don't have to internally start shifting things and taking things away from different departments how do how do we know that well we get a wait for you to do that question what about Redevelopment uh negotiations where does that come under we you lump in that category it is in here as well until such time as you you get far enough along that escros are set up um so so that's part of is that is that part of the general yeah so so yeah we need the breakdown on how on what general entails yeah that would be helpful okay can and you can request that from our legal department all right thank you anything else on uh 1402 litigation Township litigation all right uh Madame clerk you got to defend your budget you got so many items on here anybody have any questions or comments concerns no noov uh I have a concern do do you have don't don't what H didn't it's just the two of you right yes so how many didn't you have a part-time or somebody yes yeah I had a lot more staff when I started so what's going on took it out a lot and you've been able to survive without it only a little bit of a yeah there's a few bumps in the road but yes generally yes we do survive see the the work comes and EPs and flows so it's not I'm not always like going crazy and I'm not always bored you know out of my mind it's definitely currently I'm busy because we have the ABC you know coming doing and all that um and I used to slow down during the warmer months in the summer and what and it it hasn't um where's your election money yeah that that was one of my concerns but so and now we have two more elections this year the state is paying for those elections thankfully um because our our um election our primary election costs the town $41,000 so that goes up every single year um but we don't pay that we pay that no yeah we do we pay theary they paying the two well they they're having two special elections for Donald PC okay so the state's handling that but do that you get reimbursed no no so they're doing everything they're you know they're they're send they do everything the county and then they send us a bill for the primary um and then they handle everything you know for the special elections and all that they won't send a bill they will not send a bill now I panicked when they set up those two elections I was like oh no but now they said the state's paying for that okay um but the election budget as I said here the recommendation is 367 and this year was 41 so and to at least meet the costs are going to go upost again you have two right so we have okay so you've spent 41 and you have to pay for the um November election no it's a very minimal amount okay but but 41 is what we've expended today correct so we need to at least cover the 40 where where is that on your budget Municipal elections so you've got 367 on that right is the mayor's recommendation you requested 40 375 um and we've spent 41 right but this was before the you put your budget in that you you've spent the 41 since you put your budget in yes right yeah because because you don't know how much it's going to cost everything goes up every year so this was like a general like okay let me just try to figure this out need to know special election so yeah that that doesn't that's not even included that so we need to at least meet what she spent year to date because she know she knows that she's going to spend the she's already spent the 41 right so that should already be increased and next year it's going to go up again so it's you know okay right but this is for this year so you're at what number do is it that you need to cover what you got or do you want the exact number no just the ball 41 okay so you need another four yeah 3500 yeah yeah but is that who's making are you making notes about I'm making some notes I'm not making all of them yeah because the general election very minimal so I don't it's not like the primary the primary we get charged for everything and that was one of the reasons why we went from the May election to the November election was to save money Mone who pays the pole workers the county okay so we don't have to pay any pole workers or anything no so no they pay that we pay for um the mailings of the ballots we pay for um forget the breakdown but it's you know we pay I don't know exactly I can't talk off the top of my head okay what I think would be helpful too though is we know that you are um at least considering adding staff you got to let us know not that it's going to happen this year because it probably can't yeah and see that that's a problem with my office like we when I first started here we had three full-time people and three part-time people in my office and then over the years you know it got cut back cut back cut back and and we've been able to handle it and since June was hired because she came from another municipality she acted you know as the municipal clerk so she knew the ins and outs which was very very helpful to have um and it helped yes it helped a lot so and but Oprah has increased so much that I would say 95% of her job is Oprah um so you're literally paying her to do that um and Oprah is very you have to be careful with Oprah you know you have to have someone that knows what they're doing with Oprah she handles it extremely well um you know because you're dealing with a lot of different departments you're dealing with a lot of different types of requests um you know we deal with the police department with all of that they're very helpful um so it's you need someone that has knowledge and you need so I I trust her implicitly um so that's important so I handle a lot of the other tasks and I can handle that the issue I have is you know the the meetings because the meetings they're it's a lot um and do you mean these meetings oh yeah okay yeah um so you know it's well could if I don't think hiring someone else in my department is going to help with that they won't be able to cover the meetings why not got you they're not allowed what what I so all I was saying is that if you are considering adding step let us know so we can think about it get to the point where down the road we used to have a part-time person do the Oprah actually the last two people that did Oprah in my office left the because they were so overwhelmed by it it's it's a lot um and now they did do some reforms which is it's not enough but it's a start so hopefully that will help a little bit um but there's a lot of pressure there so you have to have someone that knows what they're doing you know you can't just like I can't just hire somebody part-time and say here you handle the Oprah I I wouldn't feel comfortable with that but why couldn't we hire someone part-time that was licensed just to do the meetings well You' pay a lot of money for that if I was going to go to work for another municipality parttime I would I would demand a decent salary for that I have a question can we put RFQ can we put out an RFQ because some some other forms of government have attorneys that handle the opras so can we put on RFQ and solicit vendors yeah I don't think it's really necessary at the moment to have someone else hired in my office I really don't perfect just so let's keep going the only point was down the road if you are thinking that let us know so that we can begin to prepare for okay down the road I appreciate planning yeah all right so we're good on 1502 uh Legal Services any there's really nothing to discuss there planning um planning's not us no Legal Services operating expense support boards and commiss can you just so the municipal prosecutor right I wanted to have a question question Madam um so the increase I wanted to understand how that is and what so the amount amended budget was 315 expended wasn't over that amount um the departmental requests and the mayor's recommendation are a little bit lower so just want to understand the rationale if we've already paid them 44,000 well the the total amount for Legal Services the same as last year so back to the 385 legal services that [Music] we5 same weing I'm sorry it's really difficult to hear you um Mr gross can you please speaking to the mic y so that that's how that's how that number came about can you repeat what you just said because I didn't hear anything really basically muffled try to get in order to try to maintain um the budget um we looked at at at you squaring up so that this year's budget was the same as last year's budget the in the first line of Legal Services we weren't spending all the money there so we basically moved it from one line to to the other okay so is the municipal prosecutor is that a perdum is that an employee session it's by session by session so last year there were more sessions okay now uh the legal services line at the top 12 and my understanding based on what you just said is that that was the assistant Town attorney or the majority of that was assistant Town attorney and he retired last year so still has not been replaced he has not been replaced so what why what is this 385 for since there's an intention to replace the assistant Town attorney so there should be funding in place for them not a whole year because he was gone right I agree that's 3,000 money he was 40,000 the assistant was 40 right what's that the assistant Town attorney was 385 385 yeah okay okay so for the departmental request since we're already halfway through the year that should be reduced then or could be you can be okay there's room for movement there how much how much room well we can we can discuss that between now and the next meeting um but because we're not going to vote on it tonight but um well I want to hear from him so we know we have a a place to take money from well G be less than half to to the extent that you're going to replace the assistant Town attorney and you can replace assistant Town attorney for that same amount that'll determine how much um wiggle room how much room there is I'm not sure that you'll be able to replace the assistant Town attorney at that rate at 40 Grand well there's no desire to make a move on that until we have Clarity from the lawsuit so like it's not exactly yeah so it's not likely to happen at least at this rate it's not likely to happen this year yeah and that's money you can use for other departments other put in other bu so we're not hiring a town an assistant Township attorney I I'm not um but is that our decision to hire we have to vote on the on the don't we have to vote on it we need one for for certain but we have to wait for the litigation right K so why do why are we waiting for the litigation to determine whether well let's have that conversation separately from this I I'm not interested in doing it until um there's Clarity on the litigation yeah I mean I don't want to go once we open that can of worms yeah let's not do that let's we got to get through this budget okay so you guys aren't moving on that but it's not like you could take it out of the budget because eventually you have to have I me year but the council but to councilwoman Williams point we can reduce it by half because half the year past and we haven't used it so that would then allocate half those funds for other buckets but does what is the what is the common salary for an assistant Township attorney is it 40 385 well that's all we have budgeted for so right but what we're not looking to increase it no no no well do we know we'll be able to hire somebody for 385 we don't until we put out an RFQ and see who I would say it's possible but it may not be likely right so that so my question based on what your commentary has been the lawsuit could be settled tomorrow I mean there could be a decision from the judge tomorrow so then we would hire an an assistant Township attorney we would need to have this funded so we're not what I'm saying in this moment is just like with every other line item we are going to do some back and forth between now and the next meeting and introduce those amendments on July 9th Okay And discussing it right now is just going to add time and not get us to a place where we can actually agree okay um all right so uh we're we're done are we done with that one any other questions all right uh planning board wait wait oh we did yeah she hello goor I did have a question I'm so sorry um it's okay about the previous uh topic Mr gross wasn't there an RFQ put out last year in August for the uh Assistant Attorney if so could you just give us what those dollar amounts were um so we can look at it so we have an idea when we do discuss this later and make a decision that would be very helpful so we have an idea of at least what people were willing you know to take yeah the the the rfqs actually don't um necessarily specify um dollar amounts that's usually something that's negotiated in certain certainly uh oh I thought I I thought I remember seeing them it may of them it may but but you're you're not because it's a because it's a request for qualifications and not a request for proposal you're not uh limited to whatever they some a firm may put in their proposal no I understand that I'm just saying so having said that having said that I can tell you that um did to the extent that we've had conversations with with attorneys for that position some have said no they wouldn't do it and at least one said that they would do so that's why I said it's definitely possible you get somebody at that whether it's likely I don't know what kind of money were the other ones looking for did you have any sense of that hourly rates and you you so you did get responses for the assistant Town attorney position yes they did they sent them to us I'm asking if you can resend it that's that's why I remember the dollar amounts I just I don't remember the exact figures especially after looking at the budget and all these dollar amounts and and without without without getting into too much detail the one that said that they would do it a dollar amount different dollar amount in mind he won't tell us he doesn't have it how far off are we how far off do you think we are here if it's if it's somebody if it's an attorney most so most of the attorneys are goingon to charge if they're going to do hourly it's going to be $350 an hour and if you're looking at anywhere from 10 to 15 hours a week just do the math so are we are we good on that right because we're not going to solve that problem tonight no are we on board of board of adjustments we don't do that's been I think we go to Municipal Court 1941 page 21 is that Municipal Court no that's board and commission we did we did no we support for boards and commission right and that's where we've talked about um okay H yeah we did that already we didn't do boards and well I I have a question we did about the human relations we didn't do no we didn't um we did are are they aware of what their budget is yes well they actually don't have a budget these are money that's put aside to support their what they do so it is not none none of the outside groups actually have a budget thatc used to have not that they control but that they're aware of so that can understand because it's my understanding that that they are not that that one in particular I don't know what the other ones are I don't know if they know HRC HRC yeah they know exactly what their budget is well they have historic that's not what's been told to that's not what I can tell you that the people right okay so uh are you talking to the chairs yes I'm talking about the chairs H yeah that's that was yeah really have a budget they are able to utilize resources I don't know if they know what aside from what's customary what they've done year to year if they know what if anything they they have regular repeating programming that that we support so I I I if anybody has a question about that certainly feel you feel free to give me a call or or Pete a call I'm sure we can we can fill that well I would like to know what the range is for that for the it's right here it's 44 they only spent 1250 last year you know environmental has 1100 they spent nine uh historic preservations spent all of their money Arts Council budgeted 25 only spent 14 and I think there was some conversation earlier about supporting the Arts differently um you know that may be a space to do it and then you have the PRC used to get 6,000 not that we always spent it but then it went away that's I was laughing last year but again we need it something this year and you got it done yeah you got it done for 1300 whatever why doesn't the so I don't even see the public relations Commission in here anymore as a boarding commission so it's not it never has been it's always been under the business administrator's office budget Okay so again I just to me for just equity and Justice right so that we're Fair across the board why don't all of our board why aren't all of our boards and commissions listed and why don't all of them have resources allocated towards them I mean obviously the rent leveling board doesn't need because they don't meet but for the I mean but we have so many other boards bu adults Advisory board has no budget and don't forget the main street is the what um the jobs that they do that was in the operating budget from years ago don't I don't know what that means yeah what does that mean that goes back to before even Megan was the director but what but why do they get $40,000 as a c they um the the 40,000 when you create a a special improvement district you are required to provide the same level of support to that District that you so you can't you can't create the district in the idea of saying well okay now I don't have to spend that money you you you all are going to spend that money so you have to fund on the same level that you were doing prior to the establishment of the district so that is the amount of money that was determined I wasn't here but that was determined at that time was the support for the district and so therefore it continue and it will be in that budget forever like for example the holiday lights that we put down Main Street that which is why it has a separ line it has a separate line from 267 because that is optional that's your option um but the the 4,809 I having trouble seeing I'm sorry yeah so what so again so I understand the 40,000 if that's required by Statute is what you're saying but why are we giving them 26,000 what does that the council decided to do that yeah a couple like five years ago why because of additional um I gotta ask Megan I can't well I I need to understand why we're them additional $26,000 and we won't give Luna stage any money again downtown district if I can finish Council woman please thank you again I want us to be consistent in how we're doing funding it's not fair for downtown to get 26,000 we can't give the seniors any extra money we have to be fair and how we're giving different departments monies they all need it so downtown may be getting 26 but if we're going to give them 26 then we may need to give some of these other boards and commissions more money as well it's just not fair it's not fair and can I just say one thing these are boards and commissions and then there's advisory committees it there is a difference so okay so the historic preservation is no the ones listed are fors and commissions but no but but there are others so the but the human relations commission is is an Advisory Board no that was created is my understanding that was created as a result of a consent decree back in the early 90s but it is still an advisor re board it is but it is it well it's I think it's a commission I well it is a commission it is a commission but it but their functionality is as advisory so is the older adults advisory but it's advisory all well so I I I don't know but the point I wanted to make about that is and and I I understand your advocacy councilman I I don't I think Equity doesn't require funding each of them at the same level no I agree with that and I I don't think being Equitable would necessarily mean if you increase one you increase all the others because there may be some that are adequately funded and others that aren't so to your point the human relations commission the 4428 so back in 2016 when I chaed that board we were at 6,500 and it has consistently gone down but here again they may not be doing as many activities and the charge for the human relations commission the only programming that they are by ordinance required to do is something for ML okay the other things they do in the community just help promote Community but they don't have enough money to do those programming things but then at the end of the day when we look and say that they've only spent 12250 it's very hard to argue that they don't have enough money right so I I think I think it is a good idea to have a better understanding of what the needs are um when it comes to Main Street one of the things that um I think all of us are in different ways um interested in is having is the ability to create a vibrant downtown uh I think we're leaving money on the table with our Main Street um their towns fund their main streets a lot more than lot more than we do so Equity there might be increasing that now I'm not saying that we can now I mean I already made an AR argument for where we can get several hundred thousand doll out of this budget um you know and reallocate other spaces so you know that might be an opportunity to look at the Arts Council or Main Street or seniors or luna stage or aspac or the basketball program or the senior golf or whatever um but the point I'm making is I think um Equity is not necessarily raising everybody you know it might be but to your point it may not be but it might be and we don't know that and so my question then becomes who's monitoring and and talking to so part of this is a lack of communication right so you've just said that your experience with the HRC and their chairs is that they don't know how much money they have or they don't know how money they can spend who is the person if if it's not you Mr gross who goes to them and says what is your programming for the year just like you've gone to the directors have you gone to the the boards and commissions and said you know what are you doing how much do you need have we had that conversation with any of them well the they they have always been in constant contact with the the mayor's office and Administration you know when they want to make purchases part of the process process that all went through the mayor's office and I know for a fact that the the Mayors U uh the individual working in in the mayor's office um administered for all that and particularly for well we haven't had anybody working in the mayor's office so that's not sure oh until it's just only about six months somebody in the mayor no no no I'm saying but for this budget there was no one working in the mayor's office well I'm saying that's been historically been the case now we've had an opening there that may be part of the um communication issue again you certainly if you let me know we'll make sure somebody reaches out so and and again for the West Orange Arts Council just because I've been working in that realm with these boards and commissions I know that they no one has asked if they needed more money and $2500 well they get rent I believe right don't they get rent too supplemented yeah they get like in kind I think the Arts Council you right something yeah they they PID $300 a month and we PID 3,000 for so so we we we're giv an incl contribution to that in terms of the rental is and so how do we document that if we're doing here somewhere not on this it'ss back if we ever guys that's the argument this is what we don't understand and it's really debilitating to me as a body we don't see this stuff and we should well we do see it because it's somewhere I I don't remember where I just remember from this is obviously I've done more budgets than than direct if you direct change move where it's budgeted from to the time that can but again all of these questions like tonight we're trying to get through this we're going line by line and so just to jump in real quick and and councilwoman so I know what you're talking about historically years ago when you were on the commission like we you would see a few of them got like $6,000 and then with budget crisis the former mayor took some of the with their CFO took took that away from different commissions because they weren't spending it as well you lose it and that used to be the rule if you don't use it you lose it but you also don't like so this is what I explain to my boards and commissions you may have some latitude but that doesn't just because your budget successful that doesn't mean you're getting it because the mayor still has to prove the administration still has to approve what these commissions want to do so they just don't have the flexibility of saying well I want to go have this program all these events are always supposed to be approved through the mayor's office you know we did the real at our openhouse one year mayor had agree to that because you're you're expending Monies to have certain programming so you know that's why I think they got lowered because some of the commissions didn't always use their funding and so with the historic preservation operating expense $5,500 but we don't really see them as an active border commission sure so what what are we spending 5500 on with the historic preservation what are they doing they get a lot of Grants well you had did you have to do advertising for when we had we do get we do get a probably a minimum of 15 to $20,000 here in Grants that they they're so why do they need $5,500 I mean that matching is that matching no why you I I am and I'm trying to understand why us why do they need I what do they spend idea that's why I'm asking what do what do what we didn't do anything this year with their um naming naming properties is that what you need the money for that's a grant that's a grant that's all Grant so maybe that's is a match like you have to put a match for the so what got spent what is the downside to not funding at that level well they spent it it said here they spent what did they spend it on well if they walk away and we don't get those grants in that all right so so that's a question you need to find out yeah yeah let's get let's get some clarity on that before that's $5500 and that's I mean again it can be reallocated towards something else but if they don't get the Grant and they don't get the grant every year I know that to be true but if they don't get the grant still what are we using the money for and hisor preservation because they don't they don't hold activities they need real question is what are they spending their money yeah what are they spending their money on whether I think we should have the justification for every committee what they're spending their money on and I like that they have to come and get it approved to get it approved and that's important I mean any committee I giveing people money to spend on whatever they it should be a reasonable expenditure and I I've said myself ideas yeah all right so are we done on that page boards and commissions we go to waste management next page you want to do Waste Management Mr gross yeah that's that that's basically covering the cost of our refuse contract that's recycling only or that's yeah we Carri over is this the number from the uh this is the next page over after um number that's that's in the new contract okay okay well out that way that's we all right so and that is that agnostic to which option we choose because recycling wasn't on the Block no it's based on option number four I want to see it based on option part of our right so and then option four was where we owned the recycling and shipped it out and took took the risk that's correct but here's so but last year it shows that we only spent 9.96 there was money carried over based on the new contract I know but if we the new contract was saving money new the new contract the new contract is not the same as last year that's right that's right because it went out but it's it's going we going up no matter which option we choose yeah got it got it got it got it now what about clean money from clean communities is that in the Grant and that's not that's not here that but we still understood that was there well I think they bought supplies years ago then they got it granted to them so and so and that's the thing where you had mentioned to us last year if I'm recalling correctly is when once a line item is included you can't remove it yes that's why you don't want to put it in the no no no that's not what I'm talking about the labels that's what you hit told no you can relabel them right remove it from the document or yeah it's a it's you asked about our software before we're we're looking to upgrade the software that we have this is older software and this software does not allow us to just drop this okay without going through and manually doing it and spending you know crazy crazy hours okay Mr gross how much did we carry over in that garbage from uh from last year didn't we carry over a significant amount of money we didn't spend all the money that's not that goes to Sur that doesn't that went to Surplus okay so that doesn't carry over into nothing carries over it all goes into Surplus you can't he he mentioned that earlier the next page would be page 27 Municipal Court off did we do the court did we do I don't I don't think we did the court I think CU I had a question I had a question about the overtime and I don't have an answer written down so I don't think we did that you're right yeah 22 can you explain the overtime in Municipal Court I can I can in in general I think that was just unbudgeted we you know last year we just did well you only this year that's a common number for the overtime so why aren't budgeting what we're commonly spending I think it was a mistake last year when we were doing Cuts uh I think it got cut too TR so but but we didn't we cut it to a, 16155 I don't think on purpose but I think that's what ended up happening so then we need to readjust that to at least what we're spending like I I I understand your philosophy where you some line items that haven't been used you keep them in but what I don't what I find a little more challenging is when you know we spent the money and we you know we're gonna spend the money but you don't increase the line item that's challenging for me from a budgeting Concept in general I just can't grasp that when you know you've spent it why don't we increase the line item if we increased every line item to what we were spending across the board in this budget or in a in any budget you'd see a tremendous increase in taxes so you make value judgments at the time of you know where what it is what may maybe there's a chance that you're not going to spend it you try in order to try to keep the budget under control um you you you you make those types of value judgments I get it you know it's it it it from a logic perspective say well you're going to spend that but but you you if you did that across the board fact is you don't you don't spend all that money every year and it becomes uh you go you're going to the taxpayer for more money than you need to so that's what whether you whether you appreciate or or respect the the the process that we follow the process is intended and and is and is successful at at keeping the amount of money that we have to go back to the taxpayer for uh B all right all right any any other questions on that and then um when we got to on the next page Municipal Court counil woman um I had some some highlights that I did not make notes so I'm going to have to come back for that yeah I I'm fine on this one um anyone else Council mcara G Michael I'm good no okay public defenders I mean that's a negligible difference session same thing we just have more people in court last year numbers are up and we have the municipality pays for the public defender to for them right yep okay and we have to provide everyone how do we identify whether or not they have the means to pay or does is that part of the pro process there is there is a a a process for that um and and so I don't I'm not firsthand on that that's handled strictly by the court and the court as you as you may or may know and probably do know is is is actually a state agency that we have to fund okay and we don't even have real really have management control much management control control are we ready for business administrator salary and wages yes can you explain the top line for us uh Mr Bru okay uh it's probably easier to um look at look at the the um 28 table the the people are in there the ATT tenant relations assistant is budgeted in here this year uh so that's uh and that wasn't in last year that was in planning it probably should go back to planning but but at one point in time it was Mr samiraldo and since he was the assistant business administrator it was brought over here it's not him now it's somebody else and so it remained there so instead inad of it being back in planning it's still here so for this year it should stay here you know so help me understand it so Mr smdo performed that function he became the ABA so now you have someone else in that role right and that person I mean so so they they move from a different role yes into this role yes so where is that reflected in the budget their salary though if it's included here it's it's it's on it's on the next but it's it's funded by that's Sal's offset but that's yeah funded by Hut so that's a wash right the the entire thing yes yeah see the parenthesis so mine got cut off in this version so I don't have this I need that's that but next year that's going to move back to plan is that what you're saying I think it should yeah okay so that would account for roughly 100,000 of the increase uh over what was spent well you also have mral who who was his his s was previously supplemented by that the when when he was doing those duties as well his his salary was supplemented so that no longer supplemented so that that is really the respons that's why the so that's why 216 was budgeted 112 was spent last well you have the other you have the other because his money was spent in a different department got it and are there any promotions um reflected in in any of this see this is yes let's see here the the increase yep I saw that is his salary there wasn't yeah there's there are two commotions in here uh one for our administrative CLK HR coordinator and one for keyboarding Clark one got it so what does the HR coordinator do H oh I'm I'm not trying to be U snarky everything HR right so you report to this person if you have administrative challenge and HR concern yes so that's been one of the criticisms of our orc chart I'm sure I don't know that's where you were going let me stop you you have the floor Council yes that's exactly where I was going that's been one of the challenges that's been reported to us because she's not anywhere on the or chart but you report to you go to her if you have a concern and uh there's really no at least the way it's first let me be very clear I think the individual performing this role goes above and beyond the Call of Duty I don't think any of us have a complaint about their professionalism or their work product I think the the concern we have is um for employees that have HR concerns there isn't a traditional type HR department that they can go to um and we have an HR coordinator but that HR coordinator reports to you so if someone has to complained about you it's almost impossible to actually level that complaint uh same would be for Mr moraldo or anyone at a senior level of the organization because the HR coordinator according to the orc chart is so far down on the or chart that there's a power inbalance uh so we need to do some work with regard to HR as the point now this is a circular argument we talked about litigation a lot of that being labor matters I think 200,000 above what we budgeted last year was spent on labor matters if we had a stronger Department we could probably intervene in some of those matters before they got to the litigation stage and save us those litigation dollars um so you know we're not the executive branch we don't but that isn't something I think we would encourage all I'm I'm encouraging it I hear from my colleague uh to reexamine how we handle HR uh so that that individual has more autonomy um and actually has the ability to kind of implement the traditional HR type functions into town hall Council so thank you coun council president so pigging back on those comments so when I first got here in 2015 um there Mr um s uh did all the HR at the time and uh he was rle as business administrator um coming from at that time School Board setting where we developed it was the same thing over there for a while until they had a develop an HR department and now the school district has a full HR department that needs to develop here and to uh Mr gross's credit we did not have when I first got here an IT department so that was one of the first functions that he did and focus on when I got here they he developed a whole it Department that you see today that wasn't existent back in 2015 so I think it would be beneficial to get a plan laid out from you in the next couple months if if we don't implemented this year to get it implemented because we we definitely need a traditional h Department if I could just add before I step out yeah for a moment I think that's urgent and important yeah because when you don't have someone you can go to except for you guys then it it just makes for an uncomfortable work environment there should be somebody that is autonomous that people can go to they have some concerns and we don't have that and they should be sitting somewhere else in the building absolutely you should not have the and and I'm not saying this as you but I'm just saying as a senior level employee you can't reprimand someone that you're in an altercation with or in disagreement with or it's how do you do that I understand your point I will advise the thank you now I don't know that the plan needs to come from you I know you also the chief of staff so maybe it does I would assume it would come from the mayor and or the ba of the Ava well he's a CFO yeah he's got to find the money well you you may have to fund it but um the the actual um Power structure of the HR team or department or however you want to get there and you know that I think doesn't necessarily have to come from you um and the training yeah I think the training well HR so so so again you're talking about an HR director that because that's what you're discussing here because she created we have somebody that's actually serving in that role no no no no think about how to do it we we we well why would we have structures we have structures that we have to live with with civil service so let let's I'm happy to leave that in your in your uh but just wanted you to understand and I think this is a unanimous consent as well or unanimous opinion as well we certainly need more a more robust uh HR yes operation in town yeah all right anything else on on this particular uh all right we can go to the next one Communications officer number 70 under business administration operating expenses uh looks like we overspent there and even though I just what does that person do what is that Communications offic is that the Pio and then if that if that is the Pio then that increase is if that's a salary increase as a consultant we already approved that contract right understood but then but then we're doing overtime no that's a separate role that's separ Ro yes that's a separate role that's I apologize F will have to excuse me for not accepting him as a person but yes this is primarily his expensive consult yeah all right and then the grant consultant expenses um we spent 28,000 nothing was budgeted why are we spending $28,000 for expenses for the grant consultant I'm not really sure on that one is that office space is that what is that the line below it is Grant Consultants is that are are those is that millenum where is M if so that doesn't seem right oh you know that the the grant consultant expenses that's part of our auditing charge we're auditing the grants for our Auditors for the grants well the grants I mean that's that's the portion contributed to that oh I see I know you you know you got a bill for $60,000 try break it up between likely categories gotcha Grant Consultants Grant consultant that's our that's our vendor that's okay Millennium um 2011 marketing campaign well I wanted to know about calculator and miscellaneous before we went there that a in calcul that's missell office okay um and then marketing campaign what is that well that was we used to we used to hire somebody to that work with the um so that's part of that I just lost I just lost the word um Facebook um yeah social media social media yeah that was our social media social media so we don't have that anymore the mayor has not chosen or not found someone to to uh to take on the same level well there is someone that does some work with that uh but it's bound money we spend we don't spend any money on compliance I don't understand that I'm sorry compliance uh line 202 it's got zeros across the board no I mean that's not that we don't spend any money on clients but we don't attribute any money that same thing with that looks no longer here that was a paper all right and then uh the township physician what is that town has towns we have a position that's been designated uh for exams basically to handle the medical issues so why why is they're not are they salaried are they on call because we haven't spent professional Serv yeah per visit okay so what happens when we do we ever exceed that amount no okay so there's your money so no it was bud Ed it was budgeted 43 they spent 16 yeah yeah so we and we're only giving them 16 no I oh that's right they reduced it already no it's up to 18 this year oh 18 okay I mean everything going up and and the other question did we have a answer so when was so when it's say 2023 expended today does that mean because we haven't closed the books on 2023 well the books your your books actually don't close again your budget is for two years so the books aren't completely closed for two years um but so so there's always two activity in the next year uh in this case though we we hadn't booked we hadn't closed the book so it it it does not include um some some activity that actually occurred in this document does not include some activity that occurred can we kill the air really put my jacket on you want I have a jacket I was suffering earlier I just didn't say anything um all right we are almost done you guys uh purchasing any questions I don't have any no um no no no no I know you're I assume that on the operating expense for purchasing I'm looking at 2202 now the advertising is helping with the Surplus uh dues are are actually put zero for dues um no they actually spent 29.89 for advertising for yeah well the department only requested 250 yeah but then they but they spent three why why is that they had more to advertise than they that one of those line items you keep it low and then if you spend it what I assume [Music] advertising2 if they're looking at their bottom line they they just they don't necessarily um they may be focusing on that and not not on the individual lines so okay I got nothing else on that yeah anyone else on 20202 2301 P 33 right 32 33 I did wait on 33 oh no that's the next one yeah it's the it I have a question Council on page 34 um what is the $6,000 for it allocated from Finance for the CFO can you explain what that line item is that allocates some of um Michael salary um to this department Michael and and you some of my is attributed to this far y so I don't understand what that means can you so so when you have when you have employees that work in in mult or have or have impact in multiple departments um charge it we try to attribute their salary proportion to that that impact and that way we're we're more um accurately reflecting the cost of the those services so that's been the way with this department since I just a few minutes ago or while ago talked about how you started this it Department which it didn't exist and then there was more that was broken up that seems to be now uh you have the deputy municipal department head so that's he's only charged there now right he's not broken up anymore he only function in this department we in years pass he was somewhere else and then here and but that that so that but the way I understand it so correct me if I'm wrong maybe I'm saying maybe you said it and I just didn't understand it right if your salary is X a portion of that salary no matter what that number is is attributed to the IT department yeah that AAG you're not getting a raise from the IT department this is not above and beyond what your salary is your salary is X and a portion of it is attributed to the IT department a portion of it is attributed to this department and that department exactly if you go if you go back to everybody has a home Department if you go there your s your normal salary is listed there and then there's a like in my case there's a minus $6,000 for for that like for for example I get it I won't say his name but the municipal department head the one on the bottom that's allocated he he's doing the the website right he's got the task of the yeah among a lot of things yeah okay got it any other questions on it does this I um is this for townwide or is just how does that work I'm sorry the IT department of this townwide it yes Municipal municip town right right it's primarily two employees essentially yeah uh with some assistance from Mr other the other two that are listed here um okay all right are we going to go through now uh Mr gross 2302 is that where we at any questions or concerns telephone Serv 233 will we be able to bring that down when we switch to a different type of um software will it have any impact on phone services I think this year's phone services will likely end up the year being much less we've gone through and doing audits on on Old copper lines eliminating them and what and or transitioning them to the this is the last grouping so I think I think overall we'll see a decrease of will impact 2025 should be significant well then you you the request is to increase it the department I mean the department requested 154 the mayor requested 200 so if you think it's going to go down no well I'm saying it's going to go down towards the end of the year not 4 yeah because you went down on the wireless a lot that was good 56,000 you went down that was real good so can we can we do we have room to for movement on 140 with the telephone line because we've only spent 154 no we haven't yet we we don't know what we spent he requested 154 the mayor requested 200 could we spent you spent 200 last year right right we don't know what you spent this year I mean you know but we would have to go back through the bills and added up yeah I I I this is I think the impact that I'm talking about will will the goal is to get it done by the end of the year now maybe gets done in November versus you know so there might be some savings there but certainly certainly wouldn't book it at this point but I think it'll be I think it will be significant now having said that it is going to continue to expand and so it needs it will likely end up finding other places you know for efficient that will create efficiencies that that makesense you you that unfortunately in the IT world that's the way it's all playing out you know you you you you create efficiencies um and then you know which which unless you unless you reduce staff you know that from those efficiencies or you you you end up with um at least probably equal costs but better but better Services that's usually Central mailing anyone the postage meter 61 versus 74 I mean we budgeted 74 last year we spent 61 budgeting 74 this year I mean it's looks like it's $10,000 there yeah just had to get a new they we were forced into a new postage meter so um there's going to be some additional cost there this year do we know how much that postage meter cost I'm sorry do we know what the cost there is if we're looking at a $10,000 that we could maybe move around do we know what that cost is so we can yeah I I can find that okay I have a question do we need to increase funding for all these educational campaigns and mailers we want to do to notify residents for an example like tree ordinance where would that go good question that's gonna yeah any anything that we mail out that's going out of here how much is a mailing the townwide mailing cost a lot but I mean what is it what does it cost us we know what it costs us what does it cost the township what do you mean we know what it cost do you when you do a townwide mail for your campaign you know what what it costs no that's a postcard that's a little different from a letter I know that's what I'm saying we know what it costs us to send the townwide mail what does it cost we don't get any we don't get any break from the federal government right but you're also not sending I mean I I would assume it's not thick paper gloss paper big paper if you're sending the tax bill with a letter in it you know that's that's going to have a cost that's why I said the information on the back of the tax letter that's already going out so it doesn't cost anything to to get that information out to the taxpayer so but the question was to send these things out we're not going to make it in this tax bill do is there a requirement given that we know that sewer fee tree ordinance right like we need to plan for that well the fourth quarter T now that we did a third quarter estimate Bill the fourth quarter has to go out with the figures on it when does that go you'll be able to put a notice in there you put in that one now right but is is is I don't I don't know I'll top that AUST got that but we save a lot of money on not having to do a separate mailing because it's on the back of that letter yeah but I would just like to have an idea of what a townwide mailing cost we're talking about a lot of different things that we notify our residents and we can't just rely on the digital board we can't just rely on social media on our website so these are things when we talk about educating the public we need to have some type of idea yeah I mean I agree with councilwoman Williams yeah so we we need a hard figure on that because we need to add it into the budget so you'll get that for Mr G yes he said he would I do have another question on the topic of like educating um residents and getting information out there do we have like an eblast list where residents can be notified where we can send emails like blind copy and yes send emails to those you have to sign up for the those emails online it's nothing automatic but there there is a mechanism on the township website where you can register for notice and you can put down the types of notices that you want to be notified for and then of course we do have an emergent situations the capacity to call all of our residents and leave them messages but sometimes that's not feasible because people don't use their home phones anymore and it doesn't always route to a cell phone number so Mr gross is going to get us that info um are we at 23 5 now and and councilwoman G mik just so you know it's on the main page it's called notify me set sign up it's on the bottom of the page so yes I'm aware of it and the sent it out to us I just I wanted to make sure that residents were aware and people may not always go on the website I'm just advising that you know so this way we're advising the the members of the public the public great all right 2305 IT services uh any anyone have any question questions there I mean I see the mayor increased above the departmental request want to tell us why 2305 Central it operating expense it Services 11666 was amended budget 110 was spent 107 was requested by the department she just left it up yeah they just put it at what they spent that's not what they spent what they budg what they budgeted was a one what they expended to date was 110 so she just left it at the budgeted amount I mean the department requested less I don't is there an argument there or is that just you know to help with Surplus you're talking about 2305 2305 it's a $4,000 difference between well he spent 1108 right but the department requested 1072 Department requested less but they spent more and they're going to spend more so I would well they spent more than they're requesting but they spent less than was budgeted last year so I mean the argument is if they were right last year or if they were if they were no this year's budget this year's budget is the same as last year's budget which is a which is is $800 less than what they spent on a six figure budget no I get it what I'm saying is last year they were budgeted 111 they end up spending 110 right this year they requested fully knowing what their experience was last year they requested 107 the mayor's like no we're going to bump that up by another 4400 bucks I'm just trying to understand if the department head is missing something that the mayor sees or are we just increasing it because that's what it was last year why would they ask for less if I don't know why they why they put in for Less um but when we reviewed it determined that that was not likely all right um understood uh 2 6 anyone same situation I I the only thing I would say in those instances is that when so when a departmental request so what is that what is our posture if I can get some feedback from my colleagues when we see that that little $5,000 because in in some situations if we took the time to really add this up it could be $100,000 no no that's the it's only four here but there at least 15 of these right so my question is what is your appetite is your appetite then to take some of these and make some changes and rearrange and Shuffle so possibly that the reason I asked Mr gross if this is about so if it's if you're saying to me hey that's just part of the way we get to the Surplus number I understand if it's not part of the way we get the Surplus number then if we need to pull it to move it around somewhere else and that's what I I think for inst I think the next one which is a similar situation the next line is a similar situation I think that is you know an acknowledgement that you know it costs are going to expand and so it's an anticipation of that um so rather than than than to than to Tri than to trim it back because from again you're every year the police department will will will come up with with with some new um it requirement that they have to do and it's not just you know same thing fire and and and frankly in in the non-uniform side as well so it is a matter of the the budget is anticipated to try to make sure that we have sufficient funds for for this th this is you know if you're going to save money in the future you're going to make you're going to save it through it so that's just not an area to cut unless you have to and if you decide right I mean with regard to the police um you know they they were budgeted 409 they spent 452 they requested 500 and it was tough so like in that case it's the other way I would assume the police would know what their needs are and if they make the request you know I assume every department head knows what their needs are now that is a base assumption it is probably not going to hold for every Department um but my base assumption is that they know what they need and then if they if the mayor deviates from that I just want to understand why and and you know we we we do an evaluation of what we think is going to do to to cover the needs of a department and it may be a department where we're looking more at the bottom bottom line of all the it costs to make sure that that it's in line um but you know the the department know and and you you've they' they've sat before you and they you know they they've said to you this they know that uh they've gone they' gone over this with a with we don't know excuse me it's getting late yeah it is um we're almost there we go over these with the Departments uh and and they're comfortable with them um so all right so um any other question questions on this entire page 23678 or n colleagues councilwoman gber Michael hearing none 20 2550 uh 2532 I don't have anything oh I did employee contribution those in minuses negatives and then also at so I'm looking on page 2532 I'm looking at line 40 and there was a couple of other ones 19 had a negative sign I was just wondering what those could if I could get explanation these are monies that we get that go into this to reduce our costs so money that we get from wh That's the the way the the state requires us to like employees contributions to to account for them we have to put them back in as a as a what's called a contract okay thank you is there a reason why none of the Medicare B money is listed as being spent here 590,000 sorry uh line 17 uh uh retiree Medicare B 590,000 budgeted zero spent um I think it I think I know it was a attribution we we definitely spent it um but it it was it's in it's our payroll system so it hit it line in here okay it makes it very difficult for us to maneuver and switch things sometimes just on lines being utilized but then put in another category we really it it just kind of doesn't give us Clarity in where we can maneuver because we you would think that that would be half a million dollars that we can play with and re reallocate and some other areas as needed but you're telling us no it's it's it was used I mean I you know I can't identify it um there's it looks so I can't identify it I understand her point and that is a valid valid point um it is difficult using this format to really know you know what we're doing so a lot of this is guess work yeah it is it's very difficult I make a so again the way this budget you know Municipal budgets are frustrating the Surplus issue you know little by little the due diligence we spent the past year or two getting changing some categories and whatnot but giving him parameters in regards to you know take like we did last year everybody was getting so frustrated was trying to to take money out and finally we it was like a tennis match between us Administration take out x amount of dollars and he did and wiped out some of these line items I guess what I'm saying to if we're looking for a certain amount of money that we want to put in we go throw back to Administration and say you know we want to put the 500 in you need to take it out in other places you may you know I'm not sure if you want to do that if the way you're moving your Surplus around but I mean that that that is a my last year we said the Surplus and we knock down the budet well you could and we we may have to very well once they start adding some things may have to do that again that's that's well we we were judicious with it we only did a little bit of the Surplus and did a million dollars yeah I mean it was like five it was still five in there or 48 I think when we were done so I you're frustrated by give you credit like there's gonna there's a lot of these and if if you want like a bulk of money then you need to say okay we we want 500,000 we don't want to go higher we want it in these categories and then push it back to where he could take it at so just as I said last year what we don't want to do is get to a place with our Surplus where it affects our reading I understand that but I mean you know again you've I've paying attention to the municipalities and what they've done and what they're doing um and it being so late in the year my recommendation last year was to you knock it down a little bit further um we didn't do it so you know again when you continue to do these late budgets then you have a little more opportunity to to play play those Risk games and and maybe to take a little more from your Surplus and by the time it replenishes or you come back around then it's over the year is over so it really doesn't impact you at all it's a dangerous game it is a I did not I don't disagree but sometimes we have to figure it out all right any any other further questions or recommendations on um where we 23 all the way through 2309 is that where we were oh we pass that I'm sorry 253 nothing there 2801 there's nothing there [Music] 2802 miscellaneous line bothers me a little bit 2802 yeah what [Music] line 95 95 yeah what's that we we talked about this last year oh this is a sewer bill yeah yeah we had asked um where do you see sewer bille on the on printing tax and Sewer bille section collector in the first line okay printing what is the miscellaneous Mr gross so so so here is an example of what it would cost to do a townwide mailing if the printing tax and Sewer bills cost um 17 grand so that would mean that a townwide mailing would cost 17 grand no we do more than one building and they're small what do you mean that's a little piece of yeah it's a little it's a little index [Music] yeah so you do that quarterly and if the index cards okay so 18,000 or 177,000 divided by four what the sewer so this is U this is this is professional various Professional Services supporting the tax office um this is so these are contracts that we've approved yeah and miscellaneous that's where I was put so they're like Consultants yeah can can we get a breakdown on that line yeah all right um materials and supplies 30 23,000 they recommended 27149 which is what they spent so I'm I'm fine with that but why was it 23,000 last year I mean why was that the the amended budget and and only $200 is sent go back and research anything else in there was it 28 or2 oh good coun no no okay uh 2951 P controlling so um Chief Financial Officer on page uh six I'm sorry 44 base salary $63,000 how where when why and how and why it's part of the year for the balance of the year so we're we're looking to hire a Chief Financial Officer for $120,000 a year well originally this was I I I was anticipating staying longer um so I'll be leaving so so I'll be leaving at the end of July there'll be more funds available for that do we have okay so do we know what that range is going to be what the range is going to be for that salary depending on who you get 150 to 200 yeah yeah and allocated offset by grants um on CFO as well Y what is that there was a the the health department grant U was a there was a certain amount that was able to be um offset into my department as well and 6,000 we've talked about that before that's the um um it allocation okay but the so how do how were we able to do the offset to the finance department by a health department grant because we're involved you know the finance department is involved in every department and they they you know in terms of monitoring the grants and the accounting so they allowed it so okay anything else in 20 was that 2802 sorry I'm going ahead now please do uh 20 that was 29 51 anything else in 2951 2952 I I don't really have anything here we did uh 2953 planning we did planning and then um do we have to go to garbage next is that where we go what what page is that we already I thought we already passed it no that was just recycl wait did we do the tax assessor's office yeah where are you what page are you on I'm on page 52 I don't think we did the tax assessor's office we didn't do the assessor we did the where are we page page 52 oh yeah2 three and four got it good catch uh I got nothing there though same I don't have anything so on 40002 is this because of uh the appraisals line 90 is that because of downtown what page are you I'm 54 part of rebound part of rebound so so then the but it's a but it's an offet right I going to say so there's a reserve for tax appeals but that's a negative number it all s because because you funded it already the tax appeal or the appraisals the these appraisals going to be part of the um the rebound right we fed from the money you appr for the re last got you okay from last carry over so you've allocated 880,000 of that you were saying 80,000 of that would have been tax appeals it's not and so you're using that 80,000 for it's a it's a it's a legitimate expense for the tax appeal funds that you so I can use um we did police 106 what page is that 106 I think that's our next one is 106 please fire we did Emergency Management yeah that was in fire uh do building building collection so what is this 106 106 R are you C you can't be have I should have I knew I should have not address did we go over like the the parking and the Central Automotive and sanitation and Sewer pumps page 86 85 86 what was this now 85 85 and 86 what is what do the section that it's in um parking facility maintenance and repair operating expense what what number I think it's public works that's public we did okay want to make sure okay General Health Services page 89 yeah we did that yes okay I think you have two more sections left well God is good so can someone give me the page because I'm trying to go through it in order to make sure we didn't 106 106 thank you uh section 8902 okay this is all based on proposal four correct so there's a realized Savings of well is there there you say savings but I don't want you to use that terminology there is no Savings in Our Garbage Contract it's it's increased well absolutely yes that's right but if no the option we ultimately choose is which was option four the cheapest yeah so so it's budgeted here that's what I'm saying the budgeted amount not only is it absolute this is still going to be an increase above that increas right but this is a negative number no I understand but that's not that's my I'm sorry where do you see a negative number resident reimbursement budgeted extremely high because we were yes we were convinced I'll put in quotes but we were convinced that that we were risking going that up then over time they were able to develop an RFP that put us in the position to yeah to to come in much lower than what we thought what the worst case scenario was I can't hear you Mr gross again you're very far from your mic I said La last year we we we budgeted for the worst case scenario and then know since since then we were able to put together an RFP that allowed us to with options that allowed us to go out and um get um number one most importantly multiple quotes um and and because of that uh we we did much better than we thought than certainly then what was the worst worst case scenario so what you need to do for us now is on page 106 and the prior page with the recycling if we I guess we're all looking at Option One and option two now what does that mean for option two I I did look that up that's probably gonna be about 100,000 a year that you have so so this not 100,00 100,000 for this year so there's $100,000 difference just so we're clear though this is how how many years is this contract uh five year it's a fiveyear contract yeah we've got uh 2.3 3 million if we went with option two 2.3 million but you have to purchase the cards though yeah the cards on it's about $450,000 a year more um for option two in this year I think by the time you actually implement it you'll be at 100,000 for this year and what would be the cost so you're saying we would only have it for essentially one quarter of the year so we're only going to pay one quarter of that price so it's roughly $100,000 impact on this budget yeah if we were to go with option two what about one and if we were one I didn't look that up well I mean you could look at is it's about a $600,000 difference between option one and option two so over five years it's not much right that's like 25 I think option two makes the most sense yeah so it's a it's worst case scenario it's a $125,000 impact on this year with about a five to $600,000 impact for a full year overall overall right but it's only 125 worst case scenario this year which is negligible but let's put it in there so you're looking at roughly 3.86 yeah to go with what option two option two yes what about one them oh he's gonna get well that would be option one no one 3.86 would be option one there no cards yeah the difference is if we don't do the carts we've got the other issues with the rodents and the uniformity BL you're gonna need and you're and be let's see with option two you don't have that problem though I don't think so I would just ask us to do something that we probably don't want to do but I've done it because I just felt the me go for a walk on Valley Road close to the 7eleven at night on trash night i' I've been out there I've seen it and it's not just Valley Road no but but that's a that's a that's a bad yeah there's a lot of properties on Valley Road well we also have inbox in our inbox other pictures from other parts of town where the garbage is just ridiculous and and attracting road so we we we have yeah go ahead so I'm sorry to me to sorry but I don't want to lose my thought so listening to you know and just walking to the health director not so much last night but in quite a few private conversations wrapping our head around this what I like about the carts is the different sizes people have the options for and for the road in isue the problem that I we that again I see but I'm not saying can't be figured out we just need to spend a little time on it is certain business locations is they're going to have a tough time like multiple families like we may have to pass an ordinance that maybe after so many family units like can they fit all those carts there do they have to a different kind of another option or some but we don't have that yet so we don't know what we don't know so can it be done it's if it's done in all these other cities I'm sure it can be done but we don't like I I I don't feel comfortable yet saying I definitely want to go with option two because I don't understand how we could get that done for certain businesses and and Residential Properties yeah and I agree with councilwoman know I because it's going to be an issue I don't agree with doing the carts right now a lot of complaints about the carts and impa hold on it's going to severely impact the quality of life for some of our residents and that's not fair to them hold on Council mcara especially because the cost that we're saving is minimal and in terms of the impact on the quality and it's just it's not fair I don't think it's something we should look at right now at this moment um okay so that's why I I finish my comment so my comment is I think we can't I don't want to guarantee we can figure it out but I think we need to if we now I feel better that we have the time to you know pass and then we could tweak it but I think we lessened the load of of worry for a lot of our residents that the majority of us are saying tonight we would go with one or two which is twice a week I think we're all in agreement on staying on twice a week pickup was to me the major issue was a was a choice of that is the major major issue but and I want to dig deep I'm not saying which way I go yet until I get the information but it may be able to work out we're we're all thinking things can't work out as we know things are possible we just have to spend more time on it so my suggestion is to let's agree that we're going looking at one and two and then we'll have that debate once we get more information and addition to that I just wanted to say that's why I started off because of the health reason understood but that's why I started off saying I think at the end of the day we have more than one issue that we can solve with the carts and that's why I encourage my colleagues to go down and I'm not suggesting that Valley Road is the only place where we have a severe rodent problem but what I am suggesting is when you go on Valley Road they attack you now that I can assure you because they will come out and they will jump on you and if there is an opportunity for us to reconsider rethink and reimagine how we do our waste collection and we can solve more than one problem I'm also supportive of not only the rodent control but also the uniformity it looks better when you go down the street and everybody has the same type of garbage disposal um product so I I understand there's some concerns about where people will put them and I think we can again it just takes us as elected officials to go out I'm committed to doing that for the people who are saying where are we going to put all these cans well if you're in a five or or four Family House you may not need all four units to have the large can because again keeping in mind those large cans are equivalent to three small cans that most people have now so I think with proper education um and us going out and testing them you guys are concerned with whether or not people will be able to pull the cart let's go and test it put I mean I've used those carts in other places where I have family members and that's what they do in North Carolina you that's all you can have are those carts because they only have trucks with the mechanical arm that picks up they don't have people that go around and actually dump your your your canisters anymore so I've seen it done successfully I'm confident that we can do it here and I think it uh answers the problem and challenge of more than just one issue and I especially want to get our rodent problem under control and you don't have to go that far town like Woodbridge was very similar to us larger and that's what they do and they do it and they do it very successfully it works well well my my informal market research is not in favor of the carts I've spoken to a number of people who use them in other places and they have said to me that you can't fit enough stuff in those courts also all most of the residents that have come to me do not want the courts they want to keep it as we have now they feel like it's one of the few Services we have that is adequate and let's not complain about Ro anymore just um couple couple thoughts uh and we're not solving that problem tonight we're not taking a vote yeah but uh one I do all all we needed to consider for this conversation is what would the impact be in a worst case scenario for this year the impact um is approximately $125,000 that's number one number two um if we stay at two times a week we don't need the 96 gallon carts we can use the 64 gallon carts in almost all applications for some larger developments they may still want the bigger carts uh so that they don't have to have as many um uh and for folks that wanted more than 164 gallon if they chose they got a household and they've got three gener ations there they could either use a 96 or two 64s um but what we what we have heard here is and and we have one resident in particular who has been here multiple times since the three of since the three of us were elected four years ago complaining about rodents in in her Corridor and unfortunately our response has been to remove garbage cans in some places instead of provid more frequent pickup this without providing more frequent pickup from a the depleted DPW this helps address some of that by giving each resident a larger reservoir for their trash at home so they don't have to put trash elsewhere so those are just some thoughts I'm glad we were able to air those thoughts out councilwoman gber Michael as well but the thing we need to consider is there's a $125,000 impact positive impact to this budget in a worst case scenario choosing options one or two yeah so 3 8902 has a plait of 125k for option 102 from the Garbage Contract uh as a worst case scenario all right let's keep moving and I think that will ease everyone's um anxieties with the once a week pick up absolutely all right so we're staying with you two times a week folks all right uh are we and and in both and in both one and two commercial was included yes commercial in both one and two so I want to put that on the record for our business owners who were very concerned yes about whether or not we were gonna continue with their pickup as well I do want to say just for the record since we are talking about that um that I am not wanting to do that and impact that now but I certainly want to move towards that so when we looked at that chart there are only three municipalities in Essex County that provide commercial pickups and if that is one of the services that we decide as a municipality policy-wise that we want to continue um that that's a great positive but it doesn't necessarily and I'm saying this from a home ownership people moving into the community that really doesn't have an impact no at all it doesn't have an impact on people moving in it does or it could have an impact on businesses moving in and what we are trying to do so for for me I understand the argument it doesn't put us at a competitive disadvantage with neighboring towns correct but I want a competitive Advantage as we try to rebuild Main Street and to your point I agree but I also believe that there's some other things that we could possibly positively do to support our businesses that would not have um that may have a stronger impact other than garbage and one last comment sorry no you uh Council and then Council mg M sorry Council um and I think there's a delay too so okay yeah so so just in the comments I'm hearing because this can of worms has been open about us paying picking up for the commercial and then you have commercial businesses that are paying and finding out that some aren't I agree with councilman maybe not now but we have to look at it holistically um D you know in in the future I I wouldn't say today because of the Mercantile license fees that went out but I I've been getting feedback from residents and hearing some last night about picking up the the same thing I remind them that our businesses pay property taxes too whether they absolutely or through their and that was and that was my point I was going to make council president I think that we should include pickup for them I don't think we should exclude them they also pay uh taxes they're the heart and soul of our community as well in addition to Residents paying taxes so I don't think it's fair to take that away to reduce services from them when they pay tax today all right so we moving now into 9401 is that right y 9401 um anything you need to point out to us with regards to Staffing I'm what page uh I don't know the page 11 14 construction yes salary wages yes you want to point out to us yes I do I um first of all I want to tell you that the report to the council that last year we we changed our fees um and when we did when we um you restructure our ordinances and our resolution and um last year the building department collected $1.2 million based on the old fees and the new fees to date for as of May uh May 31st we've collected nearly $800,000 wow in fees wow yeah and that's in five months wow so and that's what with about approximately 1,37 permits that doesn't include some of our big projects that are coming up so the fee schedule is something that's going to help us with offset so so first of all thank you and second of all congratulations because we you know we did this together all that process was paid that that's a good thing so you're projecting about two million based on these figures yeah it could be you know especially we got anticipate we can't anticipate because we do have some large projects coming in but we just can't anticipate it right now but you can't anticipate it by law yeah until until the next year yeah so just so our our our budget actually has a reduction in what it's anticipating from last year because we didn't meet last year even though we had the increase thank God we had the increase we got closer so so 2025 would looks like that would be very promising 24 should be promising it won't impact 24 you earn it in 24 but you won't be able to use it uh no I understand understand so therefore the building department is asking for 30 new employees what what about oh there are no open position oh there's one open position so so I'll K de side um we have uh we have a couple employees that I want to make sure that we point out um one has been serving here for seven years similar to a lot of the other stories um and uh this person is is deserved of of a raise uh to go from keyboarding clerk to keyboarding one to keyboarding clerk two um the second one um is a person who been here for less than two years but stepped up to take to look to take on the role of the technical assistant now in order to do that um this person actually replaced the one we talked about who took over from the housing over my position this person is replacing her in order to help's that it's already on this list but the reason I'm explaining it to you you have an understanding is that we want to get her into that position of technical assistant because of civil service we have to do the steps of going from one to two to get up ultimately to three next year if you approve this next year we're going to ask to promote her to technical assistant this person has taken the education courses she's taken on the responsibility office we get positive feedback about her so it's a it's a very good employee and both of them who I'm recommending I think they they both um you know have earned this those positions um and so I hope that you consider it um question on that sure so post promotion assuming it is approved uh post promotion assuming it's approved right there's a about a $10,000 pay difference and they're both in the same category that's longevity one of them the the one that's in for a year we hired at a lower step and based on what we were talking more about the steps in the salary guide she is at a lower step right now than the person that's been there for seven years that person I believe is a top a if I'm correct with that this person the other person is at a step and each year she would go up so that's where I'm confused I don't understand how you come in at a same position but your salary I understand the steps yeah I just don't understand how a keyboard and clerk one makes a different salary than another keyboard and clerk one they all make different based on number of years of service right yeah because you go up with your years if you've been working here for two years let's say the steps are $2,000 each step okay if you've been working here for two years you've gotten you're up you're up that that ladder by $4,000 if you've been working here for five years you're up that ladder by $10,000 so you've got a six those two people have a $6,000 difference and and the way they negotiate the contracts is always You're sening your sta is always higher on the guide so as you move up you'll get larger increases that's that's why it gets frustrating to see some of the staff at such a lower cost but it you know she she's shaking her head she knows she's a teacher hey we're we're the we're not the board of we don't allow that and and our clerk actually sent you the guide and so when you look at it you actually go across and go down each year it's almost like a Lego block it's almost like a building block no pun intended with you sent that to us no I did did yeah so so that's so that's why there's a difference in her and and those two salaries they both perform I didn't understand it when we first got here either I think I understand it better now give it 37 years it'll be fine and then when we approve the raises the percentage goes to the overall guide so again the money gets spread out over the guide right okay so those those are the two requests for those two's employees I have to make a special request on behalf of one employees a parttime he's come to me twice already in the last two years he's looking for a $2 an hour raise as a part-time employee I told him I would mention it that's for your consideration it's not on the budget it's not in the budget right now is that the bottom line it's the very bottom line esort he's been here nine and a half years he's been here nine and a half years so I'm just tell the only issue is is that do that all your inspectors all make the same they all make the same amount of money so the part- Tim so why why would we make that type of consideration and not do it across the board the well it's for the part-timers not just him he's the one who came to me I'm just explaining this to you the reason being is that he's he saids they haven't had raise in that range in like four or five years they asked for it how many inspectors do we have in total right now we have three so they so would it it would only affect three positions well no not necessarily sometimes we hire some people per day and when we need help so it it would be an impact to the budget I'm just I'm not telling you that I'm just I'm giving it to you for your been here and years I understand he's still nine and a half years yeah it's about $2 so it's about a 4% raise and be a 4% across the board on all part-time salaries you got right and so how many are there right now there is well actually there's only two right right budget so you're looking at across every all the part-time is across every Department correct that has nothing to do with the contract we can no they're not in a contract these are part- Tim all departments no no no this this is I'm I'm asking for specifically for the building department inspectors not because they no other part-timers make this salary right these are licensed people yeah these are licensed electricians they should be a special skill the the only thing that that is concerning 123,000 total per year going forward so the only thing for me that what budget is this 9401 okay and that's for your consideration if you say no I understand it but no no it's not that it's not that we would say yes no no I'm just I thought you were just talking about an individual and that's why I said problem yeah mean as far as across the board it it becomes right and I get that part but then my concern becomes even if you do it across the board it's not across the board for every part-time right we're just talking about so that's licensed Guys these are licensed people that you want to retain that they're very hard to come by yeah they you want to very hard to come by they it's like a revolving War when was the last time they got aace so so they asked for this a while ago when was the last time they got a race my understanding it's about five years ago five years without a Race So this guy worked here nine this particular one just using as an example worked here nine and a half years and for the last five hasn't had a race and and yeah I so I think you guys can tell where I am yeah I think that's reasonable yeah I don't think that's crazy now if that's going to cause pain in other departments we need to know that's not challeng and other departments are not licensed I'm not suggesting that it it doesn't it's just hard for me fundamentally hard councilwoman Williams Point can you let us know what the total number of part-time inspector townwide is licensed versus non-licensed spectors or part-time people well parttime these are inspectors are we I mean I know there's a bunch of different part-time jobs I'm you have to be certified you have to have a I'm I'm I'm just looking at inspectors here so if these are all the part-time inspectors in in the town then that's fine with me and and there are no part-time inspectors in there probably a couple more I was going say in the building department there's got to be some inspectors there this is the building okay and then what about public works there's no skills no skilled part Tim in public works one of the fire department don't have any in in mean DPW we don't have any in Police Department um you know just make sure whatever we do we do it consistently parttime employees your big area of parttime employees is Recreation Department I was going think we just saw list of all the recreation department and the police department with crosswalk crossing guard so but we raised those to 21 an hour right yeah we just raised those last two years ago yes we did no we raised the minimum which really only impacted um new employees didn't it didn't impact most of the the employees that so like so okay and and that's 8 by the way and that's an $800,000 nut so but are you 4% increase there it's a number right it's 32,000 so are you saying that we increased for new employees and didn't increase for the existing employees who were crossing guards so so only thing we did what I say the only what we did was is that we we established a single a single salary right so does that mean that there were crossing guards who had already who are already on staff that aren't making as much as new people well they're all making the same money so everybody got raised to that level but but but the again I'm this is it's up top of my head but I'm gonna say probably 75% of people were already there everybody's making the same if you were a new person the jump was a bigger jump because you were starting at a lower base than if you were for a number of years but everybody got raised to the same is it 21 thought it was more than that yeah 21 an hour as of last year so everybody all the crossing guards yeah so we took we took care of them already so I would be much more comfortable if we did those type of adjustments where they affect in everybody and not just that's what we're suggesting for these three it's not just gonna be the one guy it's all three of them okay but I would I would like it to be anybody that has a skilled license that has not gotten a raise again not just for the ins fire fire department inspector would have that would be under that right are they full time part time he's a part-time okay just parttime so give us the number right give us the number of the part-time inspectors that would fall into this category so that we can do it across the get it done and and just to let you know just a little more information we don't to beat this we're about average for the part-time inspector salaries around the county um you know some are a little bit more and some a little less but we're having a difficult time attracting people in these part-time positions and retaining them we need to go up I'm sorry do we need to go up higher you're saying we're at about the average let's take this off now and let's I would suggest that we do this this start I I would suggest that's a good start and if we have to readdress it next year they bring in $15 million in fees you know then it's easier then it's a lot easier more power we have cannabis money and we hopefully we'll have these major projects at least under way right yeah we may have a need for more part-timers too we don't know you know we'll see what the work okay our our part-timers we more reactive than just saying let's hire people it's it's a more reactive situation so we take it as we got it thank you we still have some we do still have some more all right where are we at now 9402 is what we are we on is that 942 well before we go to 17 is that page 117 P go one page section 9402 can we um filing cabinet furniture it's zero it's zero but why was that there a departmental request for 12,500 that was um I'm sorry which one was that um 109 um it was 12 oh that was they put it 125 because that was prior to us uh going through the the um record keeping the record management system with fonx we were busting at the seams and just not being able to keep our paper anywhere um so um we we we went to fob one of our our vendors they have scanned a lot of our documents um so we don't need those cabinets in fact we have empy cabinets up there anybody wants a cabinet any other department we have I tell you a funny story about that after yeah 94 too yeah so I I would I I we don't need the that that 12,000 is not needed give it a Joe aler oh stop he's gotten enough um anything else on here and then the fund for private property what is that that's a a fund we put aside uh for um when we have to actually do work on a on property that uh the property owner gets cited they don't do it so it's a matter of safety that that so we go in and do it and then we build them so we have to we have to pay for it right then we we get it back but we have to pay for it up front and then vehicles um there Department requests for construction vehicles 35,000 we gave them nothing the director always ask for that because it comes out of its budget but we used to fund this is a vestage of of of the old way we used to do um vehicles um you know they they we used to fund one every year but since we've gone to that it's not the way we it anymore so then why did they ask for it um because it's right fine let's move on we're it's zero it's zero 9500 electricity yes 9501 Street lighting I mean what we can't do anything fuel oil yes nothing need there did you have a movement with gas 142 it was 33 was budgeted and we spent 170 and Happ there and we're putting 170 can you explain why so I I because we're in the midst of an inflationary period and that we you may not need it later on you may may determine but I so I thought that was just what what the ultimate mix of gas and Diesel was if you look at diesel line I thought that there was just poor planning on that or maybe they kind of didn't do the numbers right because the diesel line was 442 but they only spent 127 yeah there's certainly there's certainly some of that going on yeah there's no question you have to look at the bottom line on that um okay okay now I mean to your point councilwoman it if you know could we could we cut 10% out of there it's possible they asked for 500 they had 500 uh in 23 325 now gas has gone up the the issue with that for me and I thought about it too so I know where you're at um like you can't predict it and then you've got all of this stuff in the Middle East you never know when gas will Spike and then we gotta buy it so but could we do it it's possible and and I think it's worth at least the conversation I think it's definitely worth the conversation and again it just depends on what line item we're dealing with sometimes we use that philosophy sometimes we don't so you know again it's just we're not consistent in how we apply the policy and and I just think we need to you know one way one day it works and you know for one line item in one department and then the next Department we we do it completely opposite well you know budgets and I'm sure Mr gross will attest to this have a level of art to them and not just science um you know that's why give example you're gonna come up we're gonna talk about fire hying services and and rough 50,000 uh 22,000 what we spent and you're going to say can we cut back back I said I'm not sure that's enough because they're going to they're going to the PPU like a 7% rate increase across the so you know we may get hit after the budget in the middle moving forward with you know a big a big increase which you if you do that you want to have someplace to go back in the the the electric line or gas whatever what you know gasoline line would be a good line fact this is the next page but here you're right it is there's no wrong answer on this it's it's just a matter of to me it's a it's a guttal thing that you know when I look at it you know that what has what has worked uh and and kept us afloat and kept our tax rate down so all right fire hydrant service so oh he just explained that just explain that one so now we go to Jitney bus welly's gone it's under Health our senior no it's under Health right yes yeah we did it was under health so then it's zero right yeah okay all right and we did we did yeah yeah I have a request sure um because I I went to see Mr smarald today um because I've been after him a little bit and he had touched touched base with this in I don't know a meeting or two ago in regards to our Jitney routes and I think we talked about it last time we talked about the Jitney that um there's a lot of requests on line six to get divided up because of the DeCamp route not being there any more and more people are taking the Jitney service um but it's a very long service and people are traveling on it and so I know they're working on some just let you know what we're talking about here is going to be more of a capital request but what we're looking at is improving uh bus driver and and passenger safety with cameras like a lot of places now we're looking at um possibly um getting ensuring that we have IDs for that we ensure that West Orange residents are truly taking uh we're looking at um ways of of of U making sure that the routes are more efficient that they are that that they that they can be and uh we're looking at the overall operation of it and whether increasing stops in some place and eliminating others and it's all Based on data we I think the number we we were talking about today is we've had 6700 Riders trips in our in our in our jitneys just for the Jitney that doesn't include our during the daytime with our seniors and everything else and you know it flips over to senior services at n so so we're looking at that and the ways to improve it as explained I think in a couple meetings ago and and and for tonight's benefit we're still in the infancy stage of of developing this Transportation as we talked before about the IT department everything else so we're we're we're crafting and developing as we go um and we've identified some weaknesses we've identified some opportunities and we're looking on on ways of improving the service but it's going to require some capital it's going to require some thinking and it's G to you know and cooperation of of of the the public I would like for us to consider putting together um a working group so that we can really um understand some of the ridership that's been um a cause a concern with losing to Camp um that we really need to have Advocates that are available and I've had several residents say that they would be willing to volunteer um you know different people have different relationships um but in addition to what's been happening with commuters I'm trying to get out of New York we just need to make sure we Elevate and then partner with some of our other commuter towns um so that the we can Elevate the West Orange voice because without us having a train station residents feel that we may not be as strong an advocate um to be able to influence ridership well I've had a conversation with John mck Senator mcken because you know that's you know they supplement the state supplements uh you know these these busing companies and so you know there's issues there with Community coaches well uh as of late so uh major problem is you know the the lack of people going into the city on a consistent basis and um so yeah so being that we're big always been dependent on the busing and the Jitney we have to look at how we could help and one of the things we did look at we we explored some options with the county and in helping using utilizing their facilities as as a as a stop for us you know to to to optimize optimize what we have to to to make the service a little bit better and to understand what the needs are and we're looking at the needs the the north end of town was one rout is one route and there's there's an increased r ship there um and it's it's somewhat significant for us to to explore to maybe split this route up and so that's an option but on this budget you're not you're not looking to hire additional drivers not no not not at this time what we're looking at if in this budget is more Capital Improvements and then based on the the need let's get the let's get the equipment and the and the resources in place and if we need to expand it as far as Personnel that would be a discussion probably for next year got it um uh I think we've also um been pretty consistent across you know unanimous rather skinly that uh Out of Towners non-west orange residents uh should still be able to use it but just have to pay a significantly higher price um and I think you know one of the things we we talk about this we've got to stop saying we don't have a train station yeah because while we it's not technically with in our border Highland Avenue station is walking distance from West Orange residents and tons of them um and uh the Orange train station is right up here the Midtown directe train super safe and it runs better because we have the accessibility we we should promote that we have accessibility to train stations supported by our Jitney service we do we we do and that's actually a selling point for West Orange but right but to your point the difference is the Highland new train doesn't have as many stops totally understand I grew up on that train line took Mountain Station train was in my backyard when I lived in South Orange so I get it I I I think you know that each of them have their uh advant yeah they they play their part we'll get that information for you to be prepared for the cap you know for the capital and if that if you choose to support that then you know we're going to just provide y'all know what I want to see in the capital budget you you want me to support stuff I want to see money parks in the C well those those cameras do well going around the park I tell kill two birds one stone and just the point with for example the Valley Road uh parking lot that we have right here um folks could it's it's it's a little far of a walk but it's walking distance to the Orange train station so we got a mark it there we got well we got a mark and we got to create the permit parking as well so a lot of work needs to be done on this but uh you know we have to start you know doing the preliminaries for it and when you say the Valley Road parking lot Valley Road right behind post right where the right Eight Is Right is mun lot the municipal lot yeah people already parking there say that parking lot is already we are at 1206 and almost done let's just let's bring it over the line I think 99234 five and seven there's really nothing we can do there you guys can correct me if I'm wrong I don't anything else quite for 9908 uh I mean do we have to keep going if nobody has anything else I don't have anything else what is this 1,000 the only pending retro that was the the payouts right I just have a question at the library that's all right um uh the library yeah Library requested an additional 50 May recommended as well so my question is do we can we get the breakdown of the libraries budget their we usually we we get it from them every year so we need to see their budget what the spending the money this 700,000 is that Capital yeah out where are you okay um I don't know the B number but 1007 is the section 125 Library 10 Rooney 1.2 million was requested in 23 1.1 was spent 700,000 requested this year 700,000 requested by the mayor right that's building so that's ins money that was money that we put aside we were getting from our rent which is 1.2 million and we put the appropriation and we spent that full full 1.2 million dollar the past two years but that was because we were in the build you know lot that that we had we got for the the additional expenses on the building paid out of here uh as well so so now you're projecting a half a million dollar profit from them okay yeah but what about what about the stuff that they still need yeah like the landcape we're still working on that we're currently we we we're working with our Engineers the the sticking point right now is the electrical design because of of of the needs of what we have so our our Engineers have it's Pro I would say it's about 95% complete the anticipated project that we're going to present to you for Capital uh but we need to have the electrical design and there's there's some challenges that we faced because and primarily is whether what kind of EV stations we want to use in the property and some of the other supporting um extra infrastructure that may or may not be included in the project we're looking to do LED lighting you know we're trying to do things that are low impact to the environment but there's some things that you know that if even if we add even if they're low impact it still may be a load that needs all new engineering and all new possibly new electrical circuits and things of that nature so it's in the hands of our our our our Engineers right now and soon as we have it it's going to be where are we with the pickle ball courts that are going that's all been included with the in the in the redesign and so where are those going pickle ball court would be if you're looking at the front of the building of of the library and you're going you're going west there you know where the where the retention Pond is we're looking to put it in that corner where the retention Pond is on an elevated platform or an elevated has to be raised up so because it's it's an angle and we're putting it over in that corner because it's closer like toward the exit U we're building so it's accessible from both sides people can go to the park the dog park or they can go to the pickle ball or both we're looking to put the EV Chargers over in that area um these are things that we you know conceptual design we're looking at I think it's it's four or six quarts I forget which one I it I think it minimally it's four it could potentially be six courts um and has access for uh people walking into it we we're putting in safety walks across the whole parking lot so so our visitors in the library if they want to do pickle wall read a book or whatever they could do both um and also we we're designing it so emergency access so if people have to somebody gets hurt we're thinking all these things through and including the Landscaping plan and on I'm sorry the fencing is there some fencing the fencing is going to be included with that we're we're looking at all-encompassing um pres you know when we come to you we'll make sure we do a presentation so you see everything that's there where's the wayfinding signs have they been we're still um did we get this 75,000 from we're still working with that I'm working with the library board on that what about sidewalks sidewalks are all going to be included um handicap access better handicap accessibility um into into the rear of the structure and into the front of the structure um so we're looking at all we're looking at wider sidewalks with people safety Walk we're looking very much at pedestrian safety we know how it's important to many in the community um and we're looking at various different um improvements to decide walk all the way around the property can we reassign parking spots so that there are more parking spots near the building for Library users that will probably be fewer for employees the employ if if it's you're talking about Library employees I'm talking about building employees I know we have tenants in there the tenants the tenants parking spots are part of our contract when the contract is up we can discuss we can have that negotiation when when is that going to happen2 million2 million reasons some of its operational concerns listen understand that I you know so I went to an event with my um I can't tell my mother's age and still be in good graces and my 81y old father and uh they had to park you know the back fairly far down that Hill that is a challenge and they're not the only ones yeah and and and to your point in the rear of the building where we just put all these new elevators and everything else in we're actually making that a more accessible flat so people we're giving people options both in the front and the back rear entry of the building so we can make it more uh convent parking right there by that area that they want to make they it has to be it has to be designed and and and made so we we took that to account if we can if we can reassign that or if we can we have we've talked to our tenants and they're willing to maybe possibly move one or two of the spots for their location but we have to but we you know and they've been very good with us with through this whole process and we want to be good with them too so I get um we can we move on I know they want to go cuz I want to go too and I'm not trying to cut you off [Music] I just wanted to know with the pickle ball courts and the how how much space is that going to take up like well we will we still once we put those pickle ball courts in for instance right now we're getting ready to do our fourth of July celebration how much space is that going to take away I be honest I don't know the exact like I said it's it's it it's going to go if you're looking at that corner where I talked about so come if I'm coming in from the bottom entrance if you're coming in from the bottom entrance it's probably going to be in about maybe 10 or 15 feet from that curve to the corner and it's going to probably stick at about 30 feet or so we're going to lose well because we have around close to 280 or so parking spots we'll probably lose about 30 spots maybe but um but that parking lot is Never full it probably get Fuller it'll probably get Fuller when we once we put a pickle wall for it you know absolutely but um I don't know during the day it's empty yeah empty I mean it is now but I'm just saying if we're going to move towards host that being the host facility for Township events then once we start having events there food truck festival or whatever we have is the space is going to be limited yeah I I would say it's probably about 1,800 2,000 square feet you know 30 by 60 or so I forget what the exact dimensions are but you know it's something to that effect okay oh okay reorganization planned um all of that we can skip through I don't think there's anything in there but what is it for I know it's a zero for now but what was that reorganization plan for pending re instruction oh my goodness gracious but why is it still showing up in 2023 I thought we did that in 2022 is there is there a 202 that's all zero out this is zero no but it is I thought that the um that was the we just I just we just addressed it I just asked you that question a few seconds ago wasn't that the payouts from the um the uh lawsuit settlements no I I thought it was from 759 but that what page are we on it's on it's section 1000 I don't know what the page is pending retro non-payroll yes was that was the P yes wewe we said that last up all right um I think we scoot ahead to 1010 joint meeting that's our sewer bill there's nothing we can do about that that's assigned to us we don't have any flexibility although I thought it was 3.2 million I'm seeing 3.7 yeah I'm going off the top of my head so actually that might be for from last year says 3.2 special request for the L do we have any comments on that I don't I'm fine with that I I think we need to invest more but I'm fine with the 50-day re question how you feel I'm I'm fine I just want to see their budget I just yeah that's all I she requested okay because they they gotta finish you know getting getting a lot of stuff then why do we have the rosand tax assessor at 10:3 on 126 we used to do something with that and the SX I mean it's it's zeroed out but SX fails is the the health is what is that then we have a joint partnership or something yeah service okay so I have any any other questions before we get to 1010 that's my next question no on 1010 we got uh I don't know what page I'm sorry I'm working off this 127 um it's the do shared services last year we cut half of that out because it ended half the year but it says huh cut quter no half yeah it was half it was in July right or I think it was July but it it shows that we spent it all can you because they only paid us half right they sto paying in July no confused about that one we went through to till um the end of September the end of September all right so was my understanding that it ended in July um that was mine too that's why we voted unanimously to have half of it removed I remember that meeting Michelle um I mean sorry councilman celino to make it so the four of us voted all right so clarify it's an allation um you know the what you call to um all right so la the last question that I have is a question that I asked earlier in this budget process do you guys have any more questions on things that what page no it's not on a page it's actually we know we will have candidates online in 2024 and whether we did or didn't we already have people smoking cannabis in town and what I don't want is to become like some of these other towns where everywhere you walk you smell it yeah I I am I voted for it I support it I voted for a few of I think at least four or five of the letters that we I didn't vote for all of them but I vote for most most of them for the businesses in town so I am not anti- cannabist by any stretch of the imagination but I think it's important that we start with the end in mind if we don't include and so I'm really appealing to my colleagues here uh as well as the administration if we don't include resources to uh police it in our public spaces so that people aren't just you know sitting on you know Town Hall property or at the library in the parking lot or in the Parks smoking we're going to have people smoking everywhere and then we'll have to catch up versus set the tone right from the beginning and it's always easier to be hard up front and then lighten up than it is to be easy up front and get tough later so my request for my colleagues is that we consider some resources for inspectors for lack of a better ter uh to be able to monitor our public spaces and be able to provide tickets for those that violate and and then for the administration to figure out where the right place to house it is it is not the police it is not obviously fire um it could either be health or parks in my opinion but you guys can figure that out but I think we would need to start with at least two or three of those folks um so that we could have at least one on one working for 12 hours shift essentially you know 8 to8 um and if we could have more than one working great but let's send the tone set the tone send the message right away God bless you if you want to smoke go to a consumption lounge or go to your backyard yeah I'm all for that but what about Mr kio's plan he had a plan for the people to go through the parks I don't think that plan never out we never we never implemented it so there's there there was a pro a prototype uh no we we we have the park rangers if you will and it was always the intention as I mentioned earlier that maybe they be able to spread you know the educational ire that that is different than confronting saying stop you know can they issue they get your tickets in the park can the park can the park people issue summonses that's how you start you can I'm not saying you the first time we we roll this program out we start issuing tickets right away obviously there should be some education warnings right that definely be done by the but the enforcement piece is going to have to follow because if we just tell people you shouldn't do it here and you're not allowed to do it here and there are no consequences it will continue or even if it's stopped for a period of time it's going to come back and then and let's be honest we already have some drug issues in some of our Parks so this can serve Double D yeah so and they don't need to be connected to the police in case so that they can call if there's something goes wrong yeah the reason that I I understand the concern about not associ the reason but I saying yes that that say come you know totally understand and agree right totally understand and agree so a much better spot to to help well what I'm saying is let's get the funding and you all work out the plan wasn't this an opportunity where he wanted to have the Consultants come in and also have the pay for not no I thought the Consultants were for the management of the inspections and stuff but we also talked about this fun this them paying Mr Kio was has a plan he has a plan we don't need consult well they made so the council is saying I know she's saying the cons the consultant person that no saying the similar program to how the consultant is paid charge a fee to the license holders and not absolutely I mean that's AR I'm happy so we could certainly well we could certainly we could certainly because we've also had the discussion of how we're going to allocate the resources that come in from the sales the gross sales no no no no that's not what I'm saying we're gonna get the 2% we talked about how we were going to allocate that 2% this could be one of those places where we say of that 2 % that comes in we allocate enough so that we have a salary position to serve the enforcement piece I I I am open to all funding I just want to make sure that we're good as a body on funding it we can figure out the mechanism to funded there it could be all or some or none of that 2% I so yes but the big picture is it's not in the budget it's going to take four votes to add it to the budget and we're going to have to fund it so that they can work out a plan and know what kind of money they're working with in order this why I said from the very beginning we're not going to make the money we think we're gonna make we're gonna have to we have to spend money onfor we're not making any money on the but we have to so we're making money so don't get it twisted we're making some money and we're not gonna spend it all yeah well we haven't opened one yet you talking about so do we have anything else in the budget that we need to cover tonight I I think we've covered it all right did I think we did it thank you yeah so I mean excuse me council president so maybe to that point at the budget hearing let us know where we're at with the Green Acres application because I mean that won't affect this budget million you put a million in this budget already for that no bud no as Revenue yeah well first of all you got to get the month yeah okay so um do we need a motion to adjourn no not yet we're gonna um we're going to look at this debt service so I I looked at it I know that there's nothing we can do about it um right you know I don't know if you guys I mean it is what it is the other thing that I asked for that I want to make sure we see is the payouts um for employees if they leave I think that's important because we need to we need to be able to gauge preliminarily what we're going to owe people and where that money is going to come from because where does that money come from what we generally how we've done it is we've we funded it at the end of the year and paid it back F yeah I want to know what that's going to look like because we have probably quite a few people who are going to be um leaving so um yeah and that request was made so I'm sure you will comply colleagues please whatever excuse me adjustments you'd like to make um to the budget uh Let's Talk Amongst ourselves over the next week and a half before we get here to uh July 9th and um going to encourage the administration to do everything they can to introduce the mayor's Budget on July 9 so that we can do our amendments that night be prepared to be a late night we're going to have to vote on all of them sorry but it if we what what date's at July 9th um and then we can hopefully get close to complying with I would like to ask the administration to be very light on our agenda for the next meeting if there's anything that can be why no yeah but it's it's not yet you can't be heavy yet right it's only we just got out of that it's Thursday so yeah if there's anything that that can that's not urgent please please well the conference agenda too you want us to keep that to have nothing on the conf at all and we shouldn't I would I would like to recommend that do all in favor I I so no no conference agenda we start our meeting at 6:30 yes we're gonna do our best to introduce the mayor's budget don't forget July 11th you have ABC that's fine that's why we need to start and not have anything it needs to be light time ad how long uh move the meeting you got you gotta advertise that okay no I have time for that yeah for sure yeah 48 hours that's fine all right good people that's it for us tonight hi good night everyone good night everybody good night West Orange thank you good night mran Administration all right happy 4th of July