for hey David hey you don't see you later good evening and welcome to the June 19th 2024 meeting of the West Windor Township planning board my name is Curtis hberman I serve as Vice chair of the planning board but with the absence tonight of chair Michael karp I will be leading to tonight's proceedings the statement of adquate notice this is to advise that the notice of the time date location and to the extent known agenda of the subject meeting was prominently posted in the public place reserved for such or similar announcements on June 11th 2024 it was transmitted to the times the Princeton packet and the West Windsor and Plainsboro news on June 11th 2024 and filed with the Township Clerk on June 11th 20124 um hey Sam I just thought of something I think it's strange that it's sent to the West Windsor and Plainsboro news a monthly publication when it is only public comes out once a month no you no P it's more frequent my point is that if if an announcement went out on June 11th 2024 it's now later in the month month it wouldn't have made the the addition of the printed paper am I correct it's possible right okay okay I hear your point got you thank you for that clarification um very good uh could we please have the roll call Mr Patel Mr laa yes Mr Shel Mr panov Mr Bag yes Miss Barry yes Miss applicate councilman Whitfield yes mayor morat yes Vice chairman hberman here chairman cark we have a quorum um uh Chairman's comments and correspondence I do have a couple other things uh today is juneth it's a Federal holiday in the United States it's uh celebrated annually on June 19th to commemorate the ending of slavery in the United States um it refers to the Day in 1865 when Major General Gordon Granger ordered the final enforcement of the Emancipation Proclamation in Texas at the end of the Civil War uh it be it became uh a Federal holiday uh in 2021 and uh the the the strange thing is New Jersey and here's why New Jersey's passed uh its law in the assembly prior to the federal law on juneth so New Jersey observes juneth on the third Friday of the month uh so we're in those strange times where today you had no mail delivery and on Friday uh government offices are closed uh West wior we we're we were open for business today what what's happening Friday okay it's opening for business on Friday so um we're in these strange times of of juneth it's when it when it is observed and um I would just graciously like to ask it's going to be a while till how many years hence will be a a juneth is the third Wednesday of a future June but with the planning board in particular not necessarily tonight because it's a very local application we would we it's possible to have parties coming uh to give testimony or uh or the like at a planning board meeting then coming from a distance I mean you know on some of our bigger applications they come from all over the United States to be part of a planning board application so I would just like to ask for a sensitivity in the future of uh uh the of Community Development that um if there's an application like that and it comes on a juneth that we take into consideration that other uh parts of the United States might not observe juneth the way or or when we do did Mary do you want to say something yeah yeah so Sam that means it will come on Wednesday after six years so you can't retire for six years no but um our holidays are we have had this discussion our holid days are governed by Union contract and in future we may we meeting we had that discussion before thank you uh for that um on uh at at the Das and at the front of the tables there also in the back I I look like a stewardess or Steward on a plane um I have left uh notices for you all for extreme heat safety we're uh from the American Red Cross I've been an American Red Cross volunteer for 52 years uh emergency preparedness is something that's near to me and dear to me so um I ask that you all consider uh to stay safe the next few days uh give consideration to looking in on your neighbors to make sure that they're doing okay um because these type of situations can be fatal um so so these are on the back table and at the front table too uh the other thing uh I I've thought in terms of of General comments is um uh this this this this thought we are not a full service Community West Windsor is not a full service Community um and I have an example of that uh actually two examples of that one is uh about a month ago um I was with some some friends at the uh old Heights Brewing Company heightstown New Jersey where the the the main uh Brewer there is Brian Woodward a middle school teacher uh and his wife Amy live in pens neck but uh uh there was there was a good amount of West Windsor people there that night and and what was really strange to me and I do not consider the establishments along US Route one to fulfill the need for the local pub in town where the town's people can gather have a drink sit out on the patio and do that in in in a strange way the bog can sort of meet that need because it's open to the public but it has strange hours so uh uh that that's just one way I don't think we're a full service Community another thing and my colleague uh Sue has brought this up we do not have Mortuary uh services in West Windsor Township um uh uh when you die in this town you will be taken care of in another Community um to put it bluntly Sue I don't know if you have any more thoughts you want to say on that one yeah uh so um the reason I'm bringing those up is uh and also to the public here tonight is just be mindful of those things that our community lacks that we think we should have um and as we consider uh future applications and future uh things that come before us to to think of what are the things uh that the town uh doesn't have and you guys know I'm going to roll my eyes every time another hotel application comes up to us um having said that I asked my if my colleagues have any other opening remarks uh not related to anything uh that we're going to talk about on the agenda tonight very good we'll move along uh the first thing we're going to do is have a a public comment public comment is on anything that is not on the agenda tonight and that means also uh no comments right now you'll have an opport chance if it's related to storm water control uh regulations and driveways but if there's any uh public comment on anything not on the agenda or pending before the board you are welcome to speak at this time uh please say your name and your address before you start your remarks thank you what no no it's public comments no saring on public good evening tza Warman five stonely Drive um I'm aware of a pending litigation in the appell division regarding um the Bridgepoint Warehouse application um is there any status on it I know I know the appell division challenge is still is pending do you have any updates that you can share hi I'm watching a bile for anyone he doesn't know we respond to all public comments at the end of public comment perod so let everybody finish commenting then either she or I respond to every question that ra this is not back and forth so finish all your comments anybody else who wants to comment and then at the end of the public comment okay well that was my inquiry that I would be interested in um in learning a status thank you is there any other public comment at this time okay uh would you like to respond I'd be happy to I'm Martina Bailey the board attorney um we are in the middle of a briefing schedule um plaintiff's brief um has not been submitted yet I think it's it's due in a couple of weeks so we're still quite a long way off from you know from oral argument but that's where we are are there any uh are we just so I guess we'll close uh public comments at this time uh the next item on the agenda is leis on reports uh Anis do you have one from the environmental commission [Music] uh and MERS IED my and Anis I would like to ask instead of that being part of the report now that that you bring that up in the context of the ordinance review okay thank you uh the SEC other uh leison report would be the affordable housing committee Joda that thank you uh do I have any board members have any uh questions regarding the leaz on reports uh thank you very much for your reports um the next item on the agenda is uh minutes of review and approval of minutes of August 16 2023 November 8th 2023 um but first the uh everyone's I'm scratching my head why why we're approving them at such a late State okay I Cindy said it hadn't been done they had not been done previously so we're doing them now okay um very good okay okay okay fine yes if uh I'll I'll channel uh uh the chair of the committee if you had typos or grammatical Corrections just pass them on to Cindy I do have one comment uh comment connection comment uh correction on the August 16th minutes page two um it says Vice chairman H hberman opened the meeting for public comment well I was not chair of that meeting I might have made a motion to open for public comment but uh to catch that Cindy on page two at the second line from the bottom yeah probably I made the motion to open the meeting for public comment not open uh the meeting for public comment that would be more of a chair action uh any additional corrections to the August 16th minutes could I have a motion and a second to approve the minutes with corrections second all those in favor I I the uh the the uh the minutes with corrections has passed uh the next set of minutes is the November 8th minutes 2023 are there any corrections to these minutes that are of substance okay very good uh are there any uh uh Corrections uh to the November 8th minutes go ahead please well it um it so where where it has you in the roll call uh uh and I'm I don't see I see you in the in the present column not in the absent column jica what oh I'm wondering if that was in relation to I think that that's in relation to the resolution PB 20-9 which you might have had might have had an absence for you may have missed that meeting where was taken but you were present at the meeting does that make sense yeah yeah so you have not present to hearing that pb29 application I think your mic is off where that BL it's actually it's a great one oops oh yeah okay um are are you okay on that could I have a motion to approve and second for the November 8th meeting minutes move uh moved by the mayor second by Anis uh all those in favor say I uh the mo the the meeting minutes have been approved uh the next item on our agenda is uh an application pb2 24-5 New Jersey Hospital Association uh sign waivers uh block N9 lot 57760 Alexander Road in the rom2 district um this property is approximately 14,015 acre 14.15 acre parcel developed with a conference center as well as Associated improvements including parking and Landscaping the applicant proposes to erect various signage on the property which will require waiver relief for the number and size and location of the proposed wall signs Monument signs and instructional signs is the application in order to be reviewed tonight yes I no this is in order and the board can take jurisdiction thank you uh dino come on up thank you Mr chairman members of the board um glad to be back nice to see everyone um the chairman pretty much gave a very uh great opening statement that I would have mirrored so I'll just leave well enough alone for the time being I read it I think we wrote it so that's why I think I was pleas with well done Mr chairman so with that said um we have provided uh a list of exhibits they are all part of the package that you've already received so although we've listed them as exhibits we thought it would be much easier to go through them so that we're looking at the same thing rather than you scrolling through your papers as we proceed this evening um we have Mr Jim Kyle who will be here testifying as our planner in connection with the waivers we also have Mr Ray bry's Chief Operating Officer from New Jersey Hospital Association in the event that you have any questions we don't expect to call him as a witness but he'll be here to answer any questions a little bit uh about the uh oh at this time I'd like the swearing in of the gentleman you mentioned I'd also at this time like the swearing in of our professions sure if anyone who might testify please stand up and raise your right hands do you I'll do you in a sec do do you swear or affirm that the testimony you shall give will be the truth thank you and the introductions will come when they they speak go ahead David and David too please and David uh do you swear or affirm that the testimony shall give will be the truth excellent so one thanks okay so with that said just briefly about the New Jersey Hospital Association is a not for-profit trade Association as you can imagine it administers the hospitals and healthcare industry in the state of New Jersey they were founded in 1918 and they've been at that site for over 50 years probably pretty quietly and probably no one realizes that they are there uh but the facility consists of an office building to the one side and a conference center to the other side so with that said I'm not going to waste any more of the board's time and we're going to get right to it Jim I'm going to call you and we'll qualify you but I believe this Bo if uh the if the chair is willing to accept him as expert in plenty accept oh yes we Mr Kyle's Kyle's been for us so we do you should still say your name for the record off yeah James Kyle James Kyle KY with Kyle men's associates just for the record my license and thank you thanks Jim so uh Jim I'm gonna let you as always just run with it I'm gonna go run the computer this evening and I hope I don't screw that up understand this might this could go Mr C said he completely queued it up for me Jim I'd like to ask as you go through the present I know we'll be seeing the images on the screen but sure if you'd refer to the page numbers on the lower right because we have our own little packets of it do is as we go each one should have exhibit list and I will out Jim please continue sure so as Dino said we're here this evening uh New Jersey Hospital Association has come with a really a comprehensive sign package to upgrade the signage at the site uh presently there's a monument sign and looking at A1 here you can see it's it's kind of in the middle of the property setback from Alexander Road that is an existing sign that is 32 square feet in area with the sign face but when you take the supports and and all the things around the sign it's about 62 and a half sare feet we have currently an instructional sign um in the location where sign A2 is proposed there's also another instructional sign that's a little further down the driveway on the left hand side as you go to the back of the building um and then there's some window signage on some of the doors that go in and out of uh the facility if you recall there was a modification this AAL photog not reflected the parking area that you see to the left sorry to the right or the east side of the existing office building was reworked uh there was a circular Drive put in there was some handicap accessible parking put there as well and that was really just created as a drop off point that has been constructed and is in use um the goal here is to replace the existing Monument sign and existing instructional sign uh with a comprehensive sign package so that includes a new monument sign which is sign A1 on exhibit A1 that will be located 13t south of the existing driveway and 5T west of the 10- foot roadway easement that exists on Alexander Road sure yes please so that that sign is depicted in the sign package as sign A1 um that is p this clip off here that is a 63q foot Monument sign that will be internally illuminated um and what you'll see throughout is that we've there's a consistent design theme with all the signage that's proposed um with this application so it has two components uh announcing the New Jersey Hospital Association and then also the New Jersey Hospital Association Event Center so aside from this being the association's office space there's as Dino said a conference center here so that conference center is used for a variety of activities meetings weddings a whole variety of of things that occur there uh sometimes at hours that are after the normal office staff is in the building so the goal here is to more efficiently get people to the site so the building itself is about 400 feet back from Alexander Road so as you approach which most people are coming from the rout one area because we have people that come as part of Hospital Association events from all over the state and then obviously the conference center events that happen you know that could be a variety of people coming from even places outside of New Jersey so as you approach from Route One on Alexander Road you don't really get any sense of this is the fact that this is the New Jersey Hospital Association as you are all aware Alexander Road's a four four-lane Road two in each Direction uh multiple Office Buildings complex is on either side so uh the goal here is to get the monument sign closer to the driveway location so that as people approach from either direction they'll be able to identify that driveway and make the turn that they need in a timely fashion without impacting driver safety the second uh component of this is directional signage once uh patrons come onto the site so we have the drop off point in on the east side of the building as I said there's also parking for the conference center and event and the offices at the rear of the building so the goal with the instructional signage is to just direct folks to the appropriate location at either the front or the back of the building and here is the the first what we're calling instructional sign just to keep the language consistent with how the ordinance classifies it and that is a 25.6 square foot sign um that is internally illuminated so that is signed A2 that is the main directional sign as you come in it shows folks if you're dropping off turn left here if you're parking continue forward and go to the rear of the building because the other thing we would like to avoid is folks trying to park in the drop rather than going to the rear of the building uh to park [Music] sure usually I'm working the computer and he's doing the talk so the second instructional sign is located as I said farther down the driveway past the building and that is a 12 square foot instructional sign that simply says njha parking to the left now the other thing that we have is this driveway shared with another office building next door so we want to make sure that we're directing njj folks to the left and anybody else that's going to the other building to the right just to make that clear so that's a 12 sqare foot sign now we'll move on to the building signage uh the first component is that is not illuminated the first aspect of what we're adding to the side of the building are um the address for the building so the number 760 that will be if you're looking at the building to the front right um the total square footage of that is 19.74% are 3 feet tall um so we and I'll go through all the relief in a minute I just want to walk you all through the signs and that will that will also be kind of Halo lit so it'll be lit from the back and the shadow and the light will be around the outside of the numbers so we have a total of three other wallmounted signs um so it'll be front and back of the entrance so there's a door on the front front front or the East Side there's also a door at the rear for the parking area and we'll be placing the same wall mounted sign of 38 half square feet that is uh njha New Jersey Hospital Association and then with the words to health another component of relief that we're seeking is as you can see the top part that says two Health that exceeds the height of the roof so there's relief that's required for that sign to exceed the height of the the roof there stick up above the roof line front and back there there's also Bridge Cafe so there's a separate entrance for the cafe if you're coming from the back of the building on the left hand side so the the cafe is really int for folks that either work at the facility or that are visiting the facility it is not open to the general public come in and and have lunch or dinner so we just want to call out that separate entrance for the cafe which is as I said on the left hand side as you're walking in at the back of the building and that is 28.4 square feet so getting to the relief part of it um there are a number of of design waivers that are required so these standards reside in the site plan section of the ordinance so these are not variances we need design waivers and Mr Novak your planner points out uh the standard for that comes from the New Jersey municipal land use law and it's section 51 essentially in a situation where literal enforcement of these standards would cause undue hardship or is impracticable the board can grant relief so there is really no hardship aspect to this um we're going to focus on the impracticable word and that doesn't mean that you can't do it it simply means would not be wise to continue the practice of so in this case we're looking at application of assigned standards relative to this specific property and its needs and determining is this a better fit to achieve what we need to achieve directing people to the site and then there's also a court case uh Galo Burlington I think it's Burlington Burlington Burlington basically what the court said in that case was as the board has re reviewing design waivers they simply have to be reasonable under the facts so um you know you're imposing your judgment on the testimony that I'll provide tonight and just determining is what Mr Kyle's saying reasonable essentially so let's just summarize the relief Mr Novak has gone through this in his June 6 memo um so the first one is for the area of the monument sign 48 square feet is permitted we're seeking uh 63 square feet the monument sign height 4 feet is permitted and we're proposed 5.67 ft the directional or rather the instructional signage um directional signs or instructional signs are permitted to be two square feet sign A2 has an area of 25.6 and S A3 has an area of 12 square feet so we need believe for that the street number uh Street numbers that we're placing on the building those are permitted to be a maximum height of 8 in and we're proposing 36 we also require a waiver for the number of wall signs um one is permitted and we are proposing three so as I'd said the the front and back of the entrance and then the cafe sign as well the wall sign letter height um 18 inches is permitted signs A5 and A6 have a letter height of 26.1 in and then the wall sign projection as I mentioned uh is not permitted to be above the roof line and signs uh A5 and A6 extend slightly above the roof line above those two entrances so as I'd said um in the opening the site is is somewhat of a challenge for those that are coming based on the fact that the building is over 400 feet from Alexander Road there's really no discernable identification of the site other than first the monument sign and then we have this issue where again we have the drop off point in the front it's really intended just for folks if they're coming to an event if somebody's taking a car service they can be dropped off and and come through the front door but we want to discern from the drop off point to the parking for folks that are coming for the event so we really need to be able to direct them to the appropriate location on the site um as far as the that's above the the two doors talk for a minute about that projection above the roof line um simple fact is we have very limited area above those doorways you can see that fascia that extends above the door is is relatively narrow um we want to make sure that we're directing people it's essentially wayf finding signage getting them to the appropriate entrance there are other entrances located in the back of the building emergency entrances man doors things like that for fire code so we just want to make sure that we're adequately highlighting that if you've been out to the site you can see that the parking area that's at the rear is rather large so we just want to make sure that the signage is adequate enough to call out the fact that this is the main entrance for the hospital Association facility now the street numbering um this was designed in such a way that it could be more visible from Alexander Road so Emergency Services will often use building identification numbering to identify particularly when they're coming into this site there are really two options you have buildings right and left so placing that signage at the far right side of the building will make it visible it'll be illuminated so when Emergency Services comes in they'll be able to quickly identify that it's 760 Alexander Road sry which which number sign is that that that's the building address numbering um that I'm [Music] sorry yeah so I did actually go out and look um you know as as we are requesting an area waiver for the Monument sign I did go out and look I didn't physically measure every sign along Alexander Road but um comparing it to the sign that we have now the monument sign as I said when you take the the supports on either side and the total area of the sign it's about the same as what we're proposing just relocating it closer to the driveway and then having it um be internally illuminated right now the existing sign has spotlights on the ground that shine up so that sign will be completely removed and then we would place it uh closer to the driveway we are showing uh a landscape bed around that sign and the intent is to much like the current Monument sign have seasonal flowers there to uh dress that up um so I think overall when we look at you know let's talk about the reasonableness standard for a second so I think when you take all the factors of the proximity of the building of the street meaning it's not really visible the fact that we have a lot of folks that are coming from out of the area from around the state from out of the state to come to conferences you know we need to adequately direct them to the appropriate place on the site first of all with you know again with a shared driveway and then second of all make sure they're either dropping off in the right location or parking in the right location we think that this will overall approve the efficiency and operation of the site I think when you look at the Nate signage um while we are seeking relief for area in a lot of situations signage is not overstated it doesn't overwhelm the fac facade the portion of the building so if you look at the wall signs as a percentage of the facade they're about a half a percent of the total facade area um we were able to dig up the old architectural plans for the building and determine that it's less than half a percent in terms of the overall facade area so relatively minor so I think when you look at the size of these signs compared to the building um it again it doesn't overwhelm them they're not overstated being that we're so far from the street most people are not going to see these signs as they're driving by so the the area issue becomes I think a little bit less intrusive um when you think about the fact that you know we're not right up on the street the signs won't largely be visible to those traveling along Alexander Road really just to the folks that'll be coming to the site itself for events and and functions so I think overall you know it's not necessarily part of the standard that we show almost like negative criteria but here I think it's important to note that uh the signage that we're proposing is not out of character with what you find on the Alexander Road Corridor uh again on the monument sign we're not the smallest but we're not the biggest so it won't kind of stand out um we've taken great care to design a sign package that is cohesive and consistent in its design and kind of fits in with with the motif of the building so I think the impact of the exceptions that we're requesting will be fairly limited uh given the limited visibility and I think they could be considered reasonable under the facts Mr chairman that is all I have in the way direct I'm happy to answer any questions uh do do board members have any questions of Mr Kyle go ahead jica know that problem for your office building and when you're looking at the building from the um are you not able to see that this is theey Association not the number is there a problem that what appliation so I'm I'm gonna have Ray come up and address that because he's at the site every day and he has experience with the folks that are coming and going so he'd probably be better equipped to answer that question Raymond Brandis the Chief Operating Officer of the New Jersey Hospital Association welcome thank you thank you for the consideration uh yes it is it is a pretty common problem if you actually look at the map uh that was up there first the current sign is several hundred feet past the driveway so coming from Route One which most of our guests are not local they're they're coming from somewhere in the state every every Hospital in New Jersey is one of our members so most people traveling in from Route One the first time they come to their building and even our current CEO tells this story she drove right past it um because the sign you don't really see that Monument sign until you're well past our driveway at that point so the current uh practice ends up in a lot of unnecessary u-turns for people finding a way to turn back around in Alexander and and re approach us the second time in fact I think the overview map indicates that Ray you could point out that thatr sign correct yes current sign and then and then uh where you have the that's where the the proposed location that's where we'd like to move it to yes did you see that on this one yeah actually small but it will be place closer to the they have obviously stre number is a new sign other are really internal configuration is a site that basically has a Shor yeah I I went out there obviously I wasn't gonna take a tap measure and measure all of them but if you look at them visually that they're kind of in the same realm so I wouldn't say that this is significantly larger than any sign that you're going to see we're we're not the smallest but we're certainly not the biggest do other board members have yes go ahead uh I'm sorry let me second note from the [Music] top A5 A5 oh 5 in fabricated aluminum letter forms internally illuminated so that refers to the width of the actual letter so it's a 5 inch wide ribbon essentially that forms the sign but they're Halo lit so that'll be I'm sure you've seen it before it's kind of back lit and it kind of makes it Glow around the edges rather than being directly lit or you know fully internally illuminated sure are there other questions of the board um I'd like to ask what are the hours of Illumination so I feel in a perfect world Keepin from [Music] that's issue I mean I can understand the uh the monument sign at the road you know you want people to recognize that uh during the overnight and whatever I also understand on behalf of emergency services that the uh Street number sign which is also internally illuminated you know that you'd want to have that on during the overnight but I I don't necessarily understand why uh wall signs A5 A6 A7 would necessarily need to stay illuminated during the overnight I don't do my colleagues have thoughts on this do you have Sam what's common place on something like this if okay well maybe maybe we don't need to necessarily do that but midnight go ahead react yeah when I look at the map there's no no House nearby nobody nobody can see it and in general people want more light most of the complaints I get is put more lights put more lights in this light they putting at their own expense two sign i l are to the rear andos by three sides of of this building itself right outside that see those signs and the way the way these signs are lit to again they're not you know there's not a spotlight on them they're not shine light out it's very muted lighting that just kind of highlights the back of the of the lading um are there other inquiries from the the cafe any building put yeah the way we use our logo uh it typically comes above the njj as just a color you got it on the door yeah so I think if the board um thought that was objectionable probably what we would do is seek to make the sign smaller so it fit in that FAA there rather than change the logo any any thoughts on the board with that idea Pro or con or I'm no problem I'm I'm okay with it as it stands I'm fine it okay yeah no it's good good to make iny uh other questions are uh uh of the applicant from the board okay I'd like to move to our planers report on this application asses we had number of questions addressed and want to conf to is not located triangle this anybody any questions I have question applications reir um so what what is the reason for that that is in terms of this particular aspect [Music] and B marke and promotional considerations so there some items in there that are for at least my for example one of the requ is a area right that is pretty small order to find site especially you have M par so there's definitely some question the area that is I one um I would rather give the ability for side itself the more that that I have a quick question David um when when when there are like two exceptions from the same standard for for two or more signs that's counted as one waiver I think that's how we've done it in the past but okay we we've done it both ways I think most recently we just counted it as one because there are there are sign packages where there's numerous signs and it just the number of waivers adds up even though it's basically the same exception right right okay so I count eight waivers yes may I have technical question are we approving this particular sign for this particular tenant or we we are giving W for the size of the size of the sign so in case they decide to change the planet they have to come back on another VI or they can change the name of the sign and just for my understanding so it's occupied said that occupied yes it would with the if they were sell it I think that's in the 50 years plus so are there any other questions for our planner David Novak on this application are there any other questions for the applicant clarification information questions very good I'd like to uh have a motion to open it up for public comment it's moved by the mayor second by Anna spig that we can open up uh this application for public comment would anyone like to make a comment uh or ask questions of the applicant from the public okay um could I have a motion to close a public comment on this app very good um very good thank you so uh at this time um uh are what's what's the pleasure of the board on this application thoughts reactions you know yeah yeah your name it's my question so question satisf very good uh could we please have a a motion on this application more verb what we you should follow his he has a template no I no go go ahead J actually make a motion it's it's been moved and sec seconded to approve uh the application and and the waivers with uh the application um could I have a roll call vote Please Mr Lao yes m Mr Bag yes Miss Barry yes Miss Applegate councilman Whitfield yes mayor morat yes Vice chair hman yes thank you so so as a closing remark I want to say um many years ago there was a public event at that really involved West Windsor at the the uh at this location and it was on the occasion of I'm guessing the uh 50th anniversary of War of the Worlds uh where uh uh it was Douglas Forester Carol besy and other persons at the time organized an evening at the hospital association with Garrison Keeler as the speaker um and that's just one of my Pleasant West Windsor memories cool so thank you for offering your facility to the public in that way good sir okay um uh we're moving on to our our next item on the agenda and that is an ordinance referral from the township Council ordinance number 20 24-14 storm waterer control regulations and driveways and uh town ship engineer Francis KK will uh give the presentation on this does he doesn't get does he need to get sworn in for a for an ordinance review does he need to be sworn in I ask you he never so you can no does is ordinance review does does does the engineer need to be in well we may as well in case we have to I don't know I don't think we do but FR we're gonna swear you in on this just in case sure do you swear or firm that the testimony you shall give will be the truth so sworn thank you thank you good evening so what I just distributed was the memorandum that went to um Council and administration that accompanied the packet uh for the the ordinance um so basically the town is required by the state New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection to uh proceed with an update to its storm waterer management regulations uh in response response to the state's adoption of the Inland flood rules for um storm waterer management and basically they um what the intent of the the rule is in response to a number of of storms that have come through a number of hundred-year storms that have come through since uh 2000 um obviously it's only 2024 and we've probably had two or three already so what what they've done at the state level is uh a lot of storm waterer management regulations the design information is based on statistical data that's accumulated from 1950 I believe to 1999 and based on that statistical analysis they developed these different rainfall amounts that occur across the state for different projected intervals of um and they basically translate into what Engineers use in their storm waterer management reports that come to land use boards uh typically it's uh a design has to account for the two-year design storm the 10year design storm and the 100-year design storm and um obviously as the storm number the year gets higher the rainfall amount gets higher there's more runoff there's more precipitation and what they did after these these uh more recent again almost backtack hundred-year storms had occurred as they've gone through and looked at uh a couple of studies that analyzed the rainfall information for storms from 2000 to 2019 and what they found is that the the frequency of these events is changing the amount of rainfall that's occurring for these events is increasing so they developed these rules based on these models uh for for current what the current trend is and projected that out assuming the same moderate uh carbon emission rate that's currently occurring uh holds true through 2099 and what the subsequent increases will be over time so um what what a developer now has to do not currently for the township but for a state agency anytime they have to go in for a state permit or state review or Delaware rare Canal commission is they have to take a look at the the current storm event uh rainfall rates and there's a table in the ordinance um I think it's on page I wrote it down here somewhere page 29 that shows even for the current situation for the hundred-year storm the the current research has shown there's already a 4% increase in the rainfall amount for the hundred-year storm so there's a factor uh inflation factor that a designer now has to uh use and his model for current events and then not only that the regulations require that once an engineer has designed his site and his storm waterer management features for this current condition he has to go back and make sure that site and storm waterer controls will also function for the worst case 2099 scenario and there's another table uh a little underneath the first one again um on page 29 which is projecting that that 100e storm by 2099 will be 36% greater than it is today so um they want to make sure that basically the regulations want to make sure that everything works today for the current event and is also going to work for the future uh but they don't want it only designed for the future because that may allow too much water to escape today so you have a problem today but not for the future but you also can't design it just for today because then things will flood and erode and cause offsite problems in the future so they they have to design for both situations now so what what the state has uh come across saying is is that um the towns had from July of 2023 uh 12 months to update there local regulations to require this for basically still the major development projects what they call major development uh which the town already has a definition and a trigger in in the code so those same types of projects will still have to um come in for storm waterer management review at the local level but they'll also under the town's regulations in order for the town to approve it the land use board whether it's the planning board or zoning board will have to verify that it meets that the controls for the current rainfall events and the projected future rainfall events as part of the approval process um there's some other changes that are in there some of them are are clarifying definitions uh the DP has also removed one of the ways that Engineers were able to estimate runoff for a development project it was called the rational method or it still is called the rational method and it was approved previously uh developers were allowed to use it for smaller sites but um I guess the state felt it wasn't conservative enough uh there wasn't enough of a factor of safety for design or errors in design or errors in construction um so they they've done away with it at the state level and they're requiring it be done away at the local level so uh it's not too much of a problem obviously not obviously but uh honestly we haven't seen a developer come through using that methodology and probably probably since I started here in 20 2009 yeah 2009 so uh it's it's been pretty outdated for a while so it's it's not a big change um there are also some some changes in here that aren't required by the D and they start on page 29 and basically their drainage standards for all projects drainage design standards for all projects and and when I say drainage it doesn't necessarily mean storm waterer Management in quantity reduction or water quality control it's more about preventing drainage from becoming a nuisance to uh people in the township whether it be a neighbor whether it be flooding in the street um it it's more about uh people controlling um and recognizing where Storm waterer goes and that they can't just arbitrarily put a fence up that blocks a sale or in the process of putting in a swimming pool completely divert what used to go to the left side of the property now to the right side of the property onto that neighbor um we've tried to enforce it at the local level our it's our basically our engineering policy to to do these things that are in here but just the fact that having them in the ordinance in case it's ever challenged or uh knock on wood not taken to court uh it'll be black and white for for enforcement purposes um at the start of the ordinance uh are landscape standards uh chapter 200- 91p landscape standards and basically these were worked on with Dan do rilski when he was still here uh because we noticed since 2021 when the green um green infrastructure best management practices for storm water went in when bioet bio retention basins came in the sand bottom basins came in all these smaller more green facilities were required by storm water management purposes um they didn't quite meet the landscape standards in areas uh so there were a number of waivers that the board was commonly asked to Grant design waivers especially with regard to the shape of the Basin not being a rectal linear feature trying to be more Meandering and and look more natural but now there are so many instead of having one big grass line swimming pool for a project as a detention Basin the current standards require you a developer to put in multiple facilities sprinkled throughout a project and as a result of that making them smaller and more spread out through a development it's harder for them to be designed to be a natural feature so frequently the planning board would be uh requested to Grant design waiver so um once we knew we had had to do this uh ordinance change for the uh Inland flood rules Dan and I work together to to see how we could update the landscape standards to better work with the fact that developers are now doing these smaller green infrastructure best management practices for storm water management and not have to have developers request design waivers for what they have been coming to the board boards were designed waivers in the past um and the the last thing in the ordinance uh the last section has to do with uh driveways so we've come to realize uh over the last year or so that the the ordinance current land use code I shouldn't say ordinance the land use code is pretty silent on driveways for one family and two family residential uh properties and what we've seen occasionally is uh a resident or a developer come in and want to put in a vastly what in our opinion is an oversized driveway um not so much the part that's on the property servicing the garage but more the intersection with the street and as a result of um engineering having to do Capital Improvement projects where we're repaving Road we're reconstructing driveway aprons uh a lot of driveways are Clos to the property lines um we we don't want to incur the expense of having to replace what we feel our oversized driveway apron is wide enough to fit more than than than two cars uh because really honestly we don't see the need for it but once you're beyond that are you really even a single family resident idential home anymore if you need a driveway that big to accommodate that many cars just for convenience purposes um so it it reduces by by having an oversized driveway apron it also reduces the amount of green space that's available between a curb and the sidewalk or the street trees that are out there that are already pinched because they're between a curb in the sidewalk um it's more runoff into the townships uh storm water collection system then as I said before it's also a a more expensive um repair or replacement if the the township has to come and make repairs to a driveway Aon during a road resurfacing project so so that that's the intent of the ordinance the various sections of it in a nutshell if you have any specific specific questions or comments please let me know are there questions for uh from the board for Francis just want to make sure page 29 table 56 yes I that and yes yes yeah that's all straight from the state language yeah and I made sure the double checked I noted that too as I was typing them in Francis you mentioned the multiple Basin approach uh for uh receiving storm water and drainage is that is that different than current standards no the current it's different from historic standards uh most of the development in the town happened U 80s onward and storm water management was a requirement even back then but what wound up happening was basically what I was referring to the big grass line swimming pool one of those or maybe two of those that serve an entire development and you could have a drainage area anywhere from um 20 acres to 40 acres some some rather large facilities but what the state had begun to recognize and what they had implemented in 2021 with the green infrastructure rules was that that was uh not as conducive to water quality and groundw recharge because it was it was too much concentrated in one area in one facility and it was also harder to have any type of um soil or plant materials significantly contribute to water quality uh at that large of a scale so they the 2021 rules implemented a drainage area limit size so that any storm water management feature most of them uh have at most two and a half acres that can drain to them so to to use my uh 20 plus acre development with one big Basin now that if that were designed today there would have to be at least 10 facilities at nine or 10 in that same so you mentioned the 2021 rules describe what what you just described what I'm wondering is uh would so would this ordinance more Capt capture that intent than our previous our current ordinance well our current ordinance already works with the green infrastructure rules and with what you've just right and with what I just described what what the change was was the first part of what's in this ordinance 2024 J-14 changing the landscape standards the Landscaping just right just the landscape the Landscaping standards the changes in here are again what what Dan um worked with uh what he had seen over the last several years of development projects coming in meeting that green infrastructure rule with the two and a half acre per storm weather management feature drainage limit and and how developers were trying to mostly satisfy um stormwater management requirements first and then go back and and Landscape them and again because of some of the language in here some some of the uh some of most projects wound up needing consistent design waivers from certain sections of the land use standards mostly with regard to the shape of the basins trying to be more Blended more natural looking undulating BMS uh not looking like a swimming pool wasn't that change from philosophy of single basing to multiple basins done in the lastation yeah that was the 2021 right that was the 2021 rules yep are there other questions for Francis at this time um so I'd like to open it up for public do we we have to do a motion for public comment on Ordinance do we we public comment okay that's what I thought it's not because it's not an application right okay thank you um I'd like to open it up uh for public comment uh please as you come to the microphone um identify yourself and provide your address hello Stacy Fox 29 Baran Avenue I want to um say something somewhat General create a picture in your mind plant I think it's incumbent upon you adopt the most strict strictest possible standards that you can AP is encouraging municipalities to do so and the reason is everything you see around do has been designed based on storm what are totals from the past um you were saying 1950 1999 it was my understanding that the actual 100e storm is 1899 to 1999 and totals have grown exponentially so I've been talking to Engineers so that I can fully understand what it is that I'm fighting for because it really hit me hard that 30 new jerseyans drowned in storm water runoff in 21 was just a few years ago and Ida was an 11in rain event and so you see big properties and you think they went through all this process to get approvals even though we were we near 1999 they had to use Basin that met certain criteria and they are all designed to hold for an 8 inch rain event so Ida was an 11inch rain event and I asked the engineers um couple of them and they both explained you know I'm like three inches of rain what you know what is that look like and they said if you have a half of an acre Basin that's an overflow of 45,000 gallons so whatever Road that's near whatever home or backyard that's near it's 45,000 gallons water that's just one Basin so look at all the buildings around us the one we're in and look at everything we've ever built it's all designed for storm water totals from the past so even today if you if you adopt the strictest possible rules it still won't be good enough 50 years from now we're going under and we're going to have to come up with some serious engineering Solutions we'll be gone so we have to think about what are we leaving for future generations and how many more people are going to drown in storm water runoff which nobody thinks is possible it happened just last summer in August the whole family a postal worker you know I just want you to feel the gravity of your decision and you know we look at well the law says we can do this and law says we can do that and we have these developers and they don't want to recalculate things but at the end of the day what you're going to decide has so much impact on the lives health safety of fut generation sometimes it's not that people are necessarily going to die sometimes it's we're going to flood out neighborhoods that have septic systems and you'll have human waste backing up into homes and then what are those homes leveled because they're not cleanable and I liken it to when you make this decision it's like you know that the bridge is out or there's a car stuck on the tracks and you choose not to stop the Train the only difference is it's not a train wreck that's going to happen once it's going to happen again and again and again and long after we're gone so please whatever you can do to the maximum like the DP is encouraging please consider every s go through it slowly think about every rule you're going to vote on and take into consideration The Watershed institutes model ordinance which is more strict the D put out a bare minimum one that you absolutely have to adhere to but this is our chance right now to go further and put more protections in place for our children and our grandchildren and our great-grandchildren and so on thank you good evening everyone Dan Weiss 15 Canoe Brook Drive as you may know most council member here in West Windsor um love to thank Francis for all the work that he's put into this ordinance um it covers all the requirements that the njd has asked us to do and then some the you know changes in the Landscaping is great um the changes were driveways are great um and I support everything that he's done um for that but I also like to offer you um a Forward Thinking view as well um the latest New Jersey tier a Municipal separate storm sewer system permit it's tongue twister also known as ms4 um which went into effect in 2023 requires towns to come up with a plan to improve water quality and reduce flooding and the final plan and the implementation of that plan are mandatory for all municipalities by December of 2027 the NJ dp's recent updates to the ms4 permit aim to improve Municipal storm water infrastructure which are driven by projections of more intense and frequent storm events due to climate change the updated permits include several new requirements including a mandatory Watershed Improvement plan the proposed update to our storm water management ordinance which is BAS based on the njd Inland flood protection rule issued in July of 2023 does not address the upcoming ms4 permit requirement but here we have an opportunity now to ensure that future developments contribute to the successful stewardship of clean water and flood mitigation so the question is do we start now and require new development to follow these requirements helping to ensure compliance in advance or do we wait three years and force West Windsor taxpayers to foot the entire Bill there are six enhancements to this ordinance that could be included that would not only further mitigate flooding but would also contribute to the mandatory Watershed Improvement plan and implementation plan required in 2027 those six are to reduce the threshold definition for a major development two to require major developments to treat runoff from all impervious surfaces for water quality three require storm Warner management for minor development four address Redevelopment five require the use of low impact development technique and six include robust maintenance and inspection reporting requirements so my ask is for the planning board to recommend that these enhancements be added to the proposed ordinance revisions let's be Forward Thinking so that we can not only keep our water clean and Al alleviate flooding but also protect our taxpayers wallets thank you so much hi my name is Willet and lender I'm sorry I didn't get that Willa inlander can you spell your last name please i n l n d r I live at three court Princeton New Jersey West witer Township thank you yeah thank you for uh listening to my comments and I am asking you to really look toward towards the future here uh this Administration has been very vocal about its efforts in Saving taxpayer dollars and here is an opportunity for you to both meet those fiduciary duties and to protect the health and safety of our constituency here in West Windsor at a council meeting earlier this month there are cogent suggestions made extrapolated from scientific data from The Watershed by councilman twice regarding the implementation and Adoption of the Inland flood protection rule those suggestions from the experts at the Watershed will not only save taxpayer dollars but they will also prevent major loss and damages to the health and property of residents of West Windsor the expert analyses afforded to municipalities like ours by The Watershed can be integrated and customized to Township's needs and that's where you all come in you're here for your expertise right it greatly Matters from a fiscal perspective what you do right now to protect the quality of life in West Windsor the D is encouraging townships to implement stricter rules than what was presented in their model of this ordinance and it's because they've just delineated the starting line so you need to look at that ordinance and really dig down deep and look toward WS our future and that's what I'm asking each one of you to do it was suggested just now by councilman wise and honestly we did not coordinate these these remarks but it was asked that you incorporate six enhancements to the ordinance because those six will mitigate flooding and save costs in future remediation and now is the time for this planning board to keep our water clean alleviate flooding and protect our taxpayers wallets and it's within your power to protect our Beloved Community from storm water totals which are increasing exponentially it is also within your power to prepare because we're talking about climate change here folks right that's what we're talking about so you need to prepare for the worst so that we are all protected crafting a more customized and indepth intelligent ordance will protect our health and safety while protecting our tax buyer wallets so I thank you for consing all this and your Visions to the ordinance thank you hello good evening my name is Warren metlac I'm at five stonely Drive in L Windsor um like the speakers before me I would like to thank um councilman uh Weiss for his proposed ideas to strengthen the proposed um update to the storm water regulations um I think the town should be listening to thought leaders in the state like the Watershed Institute to do more than the uh minimum on stor water protection um and can the planning board give reasons for accepting or rejecting the proposed um suggestions that councilman Weiss made at a previous meeting and again tonight so that we can at least know that these were considered thank [Music] you my name Andy W 21 years King K Drive we have two major sorry spell name please yeah uh okay uh Andy way uh 21 East King K Drive uh princ and Junction yeah I have two major comment the first one yeah want to Second What U councilman was said I me um regarding uh how we should Implement these rules I I believe that um rules the guideline from DP may be very minimal uh apply to all the towns in New Jersey however in the past few years we have witnessed a lot of storm and flooding in particularly in West winster I think for for our time it's really we need to not maybe add every time in the New Jersey because the fing happening in our town I think we really we need to consider using a more strict rules rather than follow the very minimum guideline from DP that's my first comment um uh the second one is is since that um the Ordinance do consider at all the revision they use a very simple rule to decide whether a design should uh use old rule or uh new rule for example if submit before the adoption date they can use old rule otherwise use new rule so what if a a project submitted before that but revised later supp in particularity if the revision concerning about the life or property safety of the resident right you need to really you should also give some definition or guideline how we should concerning about revision after the mean the adoption even though the the application submitted before the adoption date yeah that's my two comment thank you good evening again tza Warman five stonely Drive can I start my comment with a question for our Township engineer no I mean all comments then it's not back and for okay you can ask your questions okay we answer all the questions okay thank you um so I want to I want to thank our Township engineer for his very thoughtful discussion of the D ordinance and he referenced the green infrastructure rules which went into place in 2021 and we're all aware of the Avalon Bay development going up along Washington Road it's being built as we speak it's massive um there's very little open space on that site um and my question for him is do the green infrastructure rules adopted in 2021 are they being applied to that project because as I recall the initial project was under discussion for some years and then it was stalled because of covid and the recession and I'm just wondering if the green infrastructure rules which require smaller deten ion basins are in place for that project and you know we all live in this town we all love this town that's an area that floods probably all of us have been caught in in a flood event at one time or another um I would just also reiterate what the other speakers have said tonight I join in um supporting Congress uh councilman's councilman Weiss's suggestions tonight I would also urge we all have a his here the Watershed Institute was very very critical of the proposed Bridgepoint Warehouse plan now several years ago and they were ignored and now that's in litigation having to do with d not following a proper precipitation model and so here we are today with an opportunity to look to the Watershed Institute and their model which has been a adopted in other towns around us like cranberry Princeton um I believe Paran Troy Hills further up north Montgomery um they are respected for their insights and their expertise in this field and I would urge that um this planning board take a very very close look at uh councilman Weiss's suggestions which follow The Watershed Institute model thank you so much hi my name is an Jacobs I live at 64 bearbrook Road I also would like to thank the township engineer for that very clear description and second the people who have commented to say that the the stricter the better in my opinion I live in a small neighborhood which would probably not actually be um REI have to be revised with the D rules but um there's a lot of flooding in this place and also um you know I live at the end of a of a driveway that has I'm the fourth house there so the flood comes down from everybody's downspouts and floods the area between my house and the next house um people don't know people who move in second generation people don't realize that it was carefully designed so that there's a certain amount of permeability there's a lot of gravel um parking lots nobody knows that there's really no way of sustaining the original plan for a certain percentage of permeable parking um I I intervened when one of my neighbors was planning to cover over some of those gravel parking spots and said you know you can't this is the the planning board approved of this because of the ratio of permeable parking to impermeable so the sixth um stipulation in the Watershed is that there be some enforcement mechanism and I think it's really important I don't I I think that people don't think about um storm management when they're Paving over you know they're they're enlarging their their driveway or whatever ever so I think I I mean I think all six of the stipulations are very important but my personal experience is that the sixth one is especially important thank you good evening my name is Ben Lee I live at the 29 rington Circle I've been a 23 years resident of West Wier and uh about this to the microphone please you yeah um I'm glad that the state has adopted this new Inland blood protection rules this has been a long waited one for the resident and I want this committee this board to give extra special cares and consideration protection for those communities with no public s systems I live in this kind of community we only have onside septics so we are quite vulnerable to their increase of the stor water and especially vulnerable to a commercial s that will discharge water to our community without asking our commission our permission without consult in with our Homeowner Association and I'm speaking on behalf of the president of my HOA and he he also uh Express his concern on the County planning board last week and also I want to say that uh the real threat comes from the sky above us in this to this sense all towns are the same there's no one t is more vulnerable than the others so I uh because your board member to yeah um adopt to the highest standard adopter order high standard ordinance that are available and also uh I want to I want the township to give uh to use a more common sense to protect the residents we will know that that there are so many great areas in ordinance in the rules in terms of this revie the storm water management designs for instance uh State ordinance and town and the counties ordinance all says okay this uh project cannot exceed their the stor water cannot exceed their the peak rate of of this so so much of interest of the ring for but nobody talk about no no ordinance governs about the time of the rain the total volume of the storm War so what if a rain last for one week 10 years ago maybe it lasted for a couple of days nowadays it's easy to see that the rain can last for two weeks and then the water will stay on the ground for more than three days more than a week if more than three days then that would draw mosquitoes I've seen that my back y has uh a very very uh low elevation that has become a a basin after rain and water stay there for longer than a week in April so I I wish that uh your uh Township Minister par has the the power to govern this to require developers to designer a plan that uh can consider the total volume of storm water not just the pick rate this is very common um consideration it is a pain for our residents we plead to all levels of government and then the answer we got is that okay and they can discharge whatever they want and then they are compliant and uh they didn't violate any uh existing ordinance so it is a pain right they said okay off pick this a pck rate is this they didn't exceed the pck rate so we prove that but in reality you all know that if you live in uh a spot that next to a commercial sit that uh they can discharge unlimited storm water to your backyard your backyard has swimming pool your back has a septic pool what will you feel and then you you you may not go to sleep easily in their during their Heavy Rain you may wake up many times to go down to your basement to check your sun pump and that that's uh almost all has said and uh last point I want to say is uh it's better as lawmaker it's better to be more uh to be anticipative now than saying oh I'm sorry for a loss later thank you are there any other members of the public that would like to make a comment upon uh this ordinance review by the planning board um uh so two things uh uh if the board wants to make uh comments in response to what they've heard from the public as well as uh I would also like like Francis if you have a response to anything that the public has shared um to offer that to uh go ahead there oh I don't know did we did we actually make a motion to we didn't make a motion to public it's for ordinance review I don't think that's go ahead go ahead speak okay than I mean as the mayor um I was aware that the state is requiring the second time to modify the storm water ordinance we just modified it couple of years ago so I'm going to start with I appreciate comments by everybody um I'm going to start by talking about flooding since everybody starts uh started talking about flooding flooding is an issue and we take it very seriously but it's not an issue that's going to be solved by W alone no matter what um actually West has been leading uh Andrea has presented a resolution asking the state to get all communities involved along with every river that goes to West Wind because there are 27 or 28 communities up scen which dump the water and if they continue dumping the water in the river no matter what we go our development we will get flooded so in fact we had a meeting with the B commissioner last week which unfortunately got postponed to July I believe yeah so we are trying to work then we convin some other townships in M County and around to to request the state to take Regional approach to strong Water Management it's not a the West alone alone are alone no Township alone can solve the problem because water just follows laws of physics I mean simply because I say there development here water will come if it's Downstream Downstream water will come what so flooding is a region real problem but that's not a this this ordinance meant to solve the flooding problem all by itself it's not meant to be inclusive now I I'll start with you some something that Mander said that yes we do need customized ordinance apprach we don't need a one siiz all no no one will have one siiz all and that's why we can't take a ordinance that's uh uh presented by or recommended by watered or any other Institute we took an ordinance we modified it we saw that what works for best for West as Francis pointed out couple of things we did added the Landscaping requirement that will serve us we realized during the discussion that there was nowhere in the for driveway was very well defined so we found this opportunity to be find a driveway to to resolve some of the problems we encounter when we finish roads um various roads because of the way people are building their driveways so we have taken a customiz approach to see what works uh best for West Wier I would love to say no new development in West win so not a single more square inch of media will be covered by imper unfortunately I can't do that on one hand still is telling you to do this on the other end state is say but you still have to build thousand new homes do this do that mention aalon development that Avalon development is a direct result of requirement for a housing requir that was that was originally proposed in 2007 and I'll just take this opportunity to answer the question that t keeps asking every time T are neither me not this Bo not the council has any authority to do something that's illegal if the state says that the application govern is governed by the laws that were existing at the time the application was presented to the planning board to The Zing board we have to follow that law I I'm not a king neither is this Bo nor is councel who can go and say that although your application was approved whether it's Trav on whether it's Bridge pointed whether it's Warehouse on 571 we can't go back and say yeah you under those rules but now there are new rules you have to go follow you keep asking the same question for last three years and the answer is going to be the same unless you go and convince the state change their laws of Regulation again if you want to restrict development and restrict this you are barking at the wrong people nether this Bo nor Council nor the May that Authority go to the and tell them on one hand they keep telling us you have to do more more more on the other hand say they say that okay this is a real problem and flooding is a real problem and cover is a real problem but we have worked very hard Francis has worked very hard for the last several months to come up with a ordinance that works best for West wi some people say oh take the test approach the St test approach affects the commercial development but it also affects homeold I remember my very first first time I got appointed to the council the very first council meeting had something to do with adjusting some contour lines for blood and I was very new I didn't realize that I said fine I mean I trusted everybody I did that we passed that resolution and 3 four months down the line people started hearing my home insurance went down and then somebody's explained to me that because of the action that Council took four months ago the homeowners insurance are going up because insurance companies use the map that the the town approved so whatever we do have effect on individual homeowners not just businesses so we are trying to do best what is not only for businesses but for homeowners and and West wi tax payers uh the ordinance has been reviewed line by line Page by Page by both the environmental commission and Anis can talk about environmental commission view the the note does say that their review is attached but it's not attached not but they did produce a report to the council to approve it and they did make some suggestions and those suggestions are included in the in the ordinance that was presented to the council Council went P by P in this way move at the last meeting and fixed whatever they thought needed to be fixed so I fully understand everybody's passions I fully understand everybody that doesn't want another commercial development in town but that's that's not what we can do so I mean I strongly recommend that Francis has done a good work environment commission has done a good work and he adop you recing to the council to adopt the ordinance including whatever questions you have and those um I mentioned uh when we did at the very beginning uh Anna said this time would you talk about the environmental Commission on the or3 of the commission to review the ordinance ordinance and task is on my shoulder that I study the whole report and make comments I I as I said in generally well prepared amended Ain and I had some suggestions some comments and I I didn't get all of them has been Incorporated and in the meeting and she has some Sugg it was inated now so a good a what circum we can make like but it bur on the on the owners I mean this will be imp owners we or so but that's we have so I [Music] ad this approve this and soon thank you um uh Francis you've heard all all the public comments tonight do you have any responses or additional remarks I had this point I don't think there's much I can add other than um as a direct response to to Turza the uh the Avalon project uh came in in 20120 so it was grandfathered from the 2021 Green in I'm sorry uh yeah the green infrastructure rules so um but due to the size of the site and the density there are a number of dispersed storm water management features for that projects they're just not fully designed for the green infrastructure rules because again they were grandfathered from that that's it um uh are there other uh questions of Francis uh at this time based on what we've heard from public comments go ahead I have a question but it's not in in relation to any public comment but it's really a uh maybe definitional on page six of the ordinance um sub subsections three and four which are being added and referred to an application required by ordinance pursuant to C1 above that has been submitted via tube should that say or does it mean to say deemed complete would it be beneficial to replace it with deemed complete or is it clear that that's what that means deemed complete I mean submitted I think under so the land use law you know the provision is understood it's when it's deemed complete is when it's considered submitted and and and subject to the time of application gole so it might be just helpful to clarify that submitted means deemed complete yeah I'm fine with that change so that would be both sections three and four correct is is there other uh uh feedback um reactions responses to this ordinance review from uh my colleagues on the board um so uh what is the pleasure of the board on this ordinance and and our action is that we've W would be uh uh saying yay or nay in response to passing it on to the the township Council for final action correct and and that it's in compliance with the master plan of war and five St drive you had six or seven folks today come up and talk about the six changes that councilman Weiss had suggested is that going to be a point of discussion tonight well it's before the the all the all the public comment we received is before the board at this time okay so um I'd have to put it TS under the greater umbrella of all the public comments we received okay so so that that that that and that that what what councilman Weiss has suggested as mentioned also by other parties tonight other U public members tonight that's under the whole umbrella of uh comments we've received for consideration from the public okay so it won't be dis you're saying it won't be discussed no I'm I'm just saying it's under the greater umbrella I'm not isolating that in particular okay and but because the board has received and has heard uh the public comment tonight and and and multiple times we've heard the list of the six items okay as per the Watershed all right uh model or fair enough I I did want to just quick followup to the mayor I prev previously sent to Jerry Mueller and I will forward to Martina the provision in the ml that allows ordinances to be modified when new health and safety concerns become available um and I Will Follow by email it is njsa 40 colon 55d Das 10.5 I sent it to Jerry when we had the full bridg point discussion and I will forward it to you Martina and I think that is a basis for an exception to what we call the time of application rule when new health and safety data in the form of rain and flood risk information which is now public and has been publicly vetted when that becomes available to decision makers like this board when an application is pending thank you T thanks um no no I need to cut it off at this time um uh so the Board needs the Board needs to to talk among ourselves and and uh in in talking among ourselves about uh our response to this ordinance it also you also can reflect on what you've heard from the public tonight as well um mayor you want to say something yeah I mean I I really that's why I say close public comment I really don't want to go back and forth but uh I encourage all of you to come and make commments to the council and Mr Weiss made the same comments six comments to the council when the uh ordinance was introduced so uh council is aware of your thinking many of you came and commented at that time too during public comment in fact we got visitors from other town as well I mean some mayor of CH came to come and mayor of lawrenville came to comment and they are not here so I really don't want to comment about their towns I may comment at the time of the adoption by the by the Western Council but you're welcome to come and make a make those comments to the council the council already heard the comment one council member is here you can you can take the comments back to the council but as as as I said the ordinance T takes into account the various constraints that the township has and does what is what is best for the West residents in general and uh Francis worked very hard and very long and uh we wouldn't let Dan retire until he finished his part of the ordinance and uh want to really thank D and Dan for that part of the ordinance because we wanted to make sure that with this knowledge he he does that that that what he require so again my commment is with the suggestions that uh Council made the the planning mod send the ordinance back to the back to the council with those two minor changes it three and four on Page 6 thank you are there any other uh comments or questions uh at this time for uh uh either Francis or in response to what you've heard from the public tonight um so uh so at this time I'd like to uh ask that um the board decide what action they would like to take upon this ordinance is there a motion on the floor uh to add act on this ordinance or a review of this review of this ordinance to pass it back to the township Council that's go ahead say say and that it's in compliance with the master plan you have to so uh J has made the motion uh Anis has seconded the motion uh discussion of the motion among the board members um I trust that commission and that Safi other other colleagues have thoughts or reactions at this time okay so um I've I've now lived here 47 years yet I just want to reflect on the last year of living here um I've lost count of the number of times washing I live in pens neck I've lost count of the number of times Washington Road has closed down because of of of flooding and of uh and you know storm storm storm events I've lost uh uh count of and yet I know I know and you guys can will put this back my face that it's because of the backup from the millstone river that causes the flooding on Little Bear Brook that causes the flooding on Washington Road at the tennis center um but but but still the these type of storm uh events have been uh more frequent to me uh in in the last year um I I I was uh greatly uh moved uh uh upon the six to seven deaths in Bucks County with uh the storm waterer event yet I know that geography and and geology and all that stuff in that situation is different yet it was a significant storm water event that caused the loss of human life um so uh I I I I'm as a planning board member I'm trying to look forward to what those that come after us in this community we'll have to deal with in relation to uh storm water and storm water improvements um I have gotten familiar with the model ordinance that the Watershed um has provided I've even sat through uh watching the hour and a half webinar uh on the model ordinance uh I will be voting against the passage of this to the council are there any other are there any other uh comments on from Council from board members before we take action on this this go ahead I will I will I mean I I'm always philosophically struggle I mean if I don't like something I want against it what does that mean that means the old ordinance stays in imp which is worse than whether you say incremental Improvement is better or it's either all or nothing that's the philosophical question if the council and that's what I tell the council if you don't like it reject the ordinance all that means is the old ordinance stays in effect Which is less restrictive than what the current ordinance is so nobody likes everything that's in the ordinance but your choice is either is the this this improves the situation or it makes the situation worse and if you reject the ordinance is there is there is there anything better expected to come out of it we may just stay with you look you have to you have to respect the process you have to following the process this hearing to tell you what we want you don't want to change it I I I respected you and let everyone speak without interrup talk Warren at this time it's there's no public comment right now that is exactly why I suggested don't start a discussion until public C inell you have every right to your opinion I have every right to my opinion I'm just pointing out because this is a philosophical struggle I go with all the time whether I want to vot yes or no on something so that that that is the situation and I understand your position is different my position as m is different because when when the when the state says you have to produce 1500 homes all of them can say don't build I don't have that choice I have to build somewhere some place I mean I wish I didn't have to build Avalon Avalon is the largest contribution to our last affordable housings and that was agre to by mayor sh back in 2007 we improved it by increasing the percentage from 12.5 to 16.5 we reduce the footprint from 70,000 retail to whatever 3039 9,000 retail so as a mayor I can only do things that are marginally but at the end of the day I have to produce but the state ask me to produce and that's why I keep saying you're barking at the wrong tree go to the state and convince to them that don't do this I mean if you don't want flood water don't encourage more development Don't Force the towns to develop I mean there are small towns in New Jersey who are forced to build housing when they have no land and the next round when you talk what's going to happen it's only going to go up I mean I won't be surprised in the next 20 years there's a eight story building in West because when the governor says you have to build 1500 homes and there's no land there's only one direction you can go which is up so yeah you you can vote no but voting no simply means that the bad thing is much worse thing than what's on the table stays in effect thank you m are there other uh comments responses uh on the motion that's before the board at this time from the board could the role could the role be called uh to call go ahead we have a council person will not to put you on the SP you become persuasive leader on I'm interested well obviously I speak about safety and and precautions in this community all the time I think it's very very important um you know two of my colleagues or Council colleagues are here um actually three three of your Council colleagues are here three sorry I didn't see her in the corner sorry so just a correction yeah thank no problem three three are three are here um the the main thing I look at and you know the mayor we've all all of us have conversations about Building Development safety cautions from children to the Future uh it's very important I have five kids myself and and you know look to be in this community for years and and for others as well um the biggest thing I look at is obviously we have state requirements and things that nature and there's that's that's a no-brainer um that's a no-brainer um when we look at these developments and even from the affordable housing standpoint and storm water things of that nature um I I think it's very important that we not only dwell into the law but also look at the Humane side of this as many have mentioned before um I have a neighbor yesterday I just found out west wi resident uh their their truck was one of the trucks that was in a tornado Friday in Lawrence Township at the post office and I didn't know about it um because I was curious where his truck was and he said Martin come take a look my wife was there that day and and she didn't get into the car um at that time thank god um so it's not it's not about me trying to convince because I don't necessarily do that any of my colleagues it's just you know we just need to do the right thing um and we need to right right thing with this ordinance we need the right thing for the community not just for the present but also for the future as as many have stated so you know I I do respect the expertise of our Township engineer and the individuals who work in this Township and do this every day for a living um I do not but as a representative of the residents of this community is our job and as a planning board member as well is to look at everything um intensely uh I think we have primarily done a pretty good job the council including councilman Weiss and my other colleagues in in the building here um to look through this and to to verify things that you know need to be improved and things that need to be approved on the make sure that safety of this community is intact so um I'm still deciding but I'm not going to say yes or no right this second but um that's kind of my response at this time yeah and I mean I think a lot of times we come before rooms like this and we have you know what eight or nine individuals that come in come in here um what I think a lot of people don't really realize as well as council members is how many others we speak to um who are for or against certain topics of discussing big discussions in this community um and how many times many of us spend um having conversations with people um about things that are very important to them because what may be important very important to this neighbor down the street that person it might not be that important to them so um it is a tough job being on this planning board as well being counsel because you have to try to make the most Fair assessment of everything and and that's kind of I think what most people ask us to do uh try to make the most Fair assessment and a lot of times sometimes it's going to be unpopular um and sometimes it's going to be something that is popular and something that people agree with so that's those are my comments mayor just something to BR toward said and then one question eight or nine people spoke here there 30,000 people in the and I talk to a lot of them usually people when they happy don't show up when you cancel football game you get F people at the school board but nothing happen so there a lot of people I talked to them um and this is not just a representative of the representative of Community uh opinion the same six or seven people couple of them have two different Ls going on against the township I can't come the last week since they are still active but the same and I don't believe that thetive of the representative of the community or all the community and since Francis very on the coordinance I would like to ask this would improve the situation going back to compared to the previous you have response can you uh repeat that yeah yeah I'm asking even what the what the requirement posted on the uh Township based on D would this improve whatever our old because if you don't adopt this ordinance you keep the oldin this makes situation better oh just um just so I'm understanding the question is uh if this isn't adopted and we continue under the current standards um honestly it's it's uh most of the projects that come to town uh wind up falling within the Delaware and raron Canal commission review Zone that in and of itself triggers the the states review and having to comply with the Inland flood rules whether or not the township adopts this ordinance so um but to answer your question uh yes this this the adoption of this ordinance would make things better in that it's it's accounting it's basically making sure those few rare projects that don't have to go to those other state agencies are future proofed by having the rainfall events um escalated by that 36% for the the 100-year storm to make sure the sites work for for both conditions um honestly what what's been uh coming since the green infrastructure rules were adopted what we've seen um at the local level that uh people think that single family homes are exempt from this we've had um probably at least half a dozen homes being built in the town that now have storm waterer management individual on lot storm storm waterer management features for single family homes uh required um and constructed and uh I don't think any of those have requested the certificate of occupancy yet but a perfect example is right on South Mill Road um south of 571 where there the the county has that uh rabbit flashing Beacon crosswalk there's two houses there that were a minor subdivision one house is almost done the other house has just started construction you can see in the front yard of the one that's built there's a sand bottom detention Basin that's now in somebody's front yard just for one single family home the house that's being built next to it is going to wind up with a sand bottom Basin in the front and one in the back just because of the change with them clearing trees with them improving the grading um and uh the amount of impervious that that's going in for the driveway for the home for the garage and of probably anticipate a future patio and pool so it it is what the what's in effect now is is uh trickling down to single family homeowners it's not the average homeowner who's in an existing home which is what uh some of what the Watershed Institute rules are proposing is that minor development which could be um a house Edition a garage Edition a a big enough patio could trigger someone having to do storm water management on their property in addition to the fact that their developments probably because most projects here uh were approved in the 80s or later there's probably already a detention Basin serving that development so some part of that is already having storm water management and a facility in that area whether it's maintained by the township or homeowners association so that's a bit of a rambling answer but better than I would that homeowners to and making the stter and without much payback to the community I mean if they were going to stop flooding on Washington Road that's a different matter yeah I mean that's well it's interesting you say that because that that's one of the problems with the the developments that don't have storm water facilities uh like pens neck like Baran City those communities are so small and dense that that I don't know where people would put a storm water management feature and some of those areas uh I think more so in in Penn's neck the soils aren't the best so the idea of just stick something underground probably wouldn't work very well because the the groundwater table's high or it's a it's a clay um type soil in that area so but and that that would be for those homeowners that would wind up probably being a hardship trying to do something like that um but I I do also want to put out there uh I don't know how many are aware of it but this this the Inland flood rule is one of the the current state administration's changes um that's coming as a result of of their concern about uh climate threats and there's another change coming um they call ngj paack protection against climate threats the resilient environments and Landscapes um there's another round of rule changes that are coming um what they're going to go after in this next round of rule changes which I think are going to be introduced sometime this year um is the volume controlling volume uh rates not just looking at the peak rates so as Mr Lee commented being concerned about volume control that's going to be in the new rule uh they're going to go after Redevelopment projects so if you have uh a site that's that's been around and and has existed and has drained to a facility like the tennis center you know it's built right next to a stream but if that were to redevelop they're going to have to find a place to put storm water management or whatever they redevelop before that discharges where is right now that's that's been a loophole that's been in um the state and local codes throughout the state uh but obviously there's an advantage to that being a loophole because Redevelopment projects can be some of your uglier more costly projects because they're not attractive they have environmental cleanup costs associated with them so um I give them credit that they're they're now making that a blanket requirement across the state with these new rules when they're implemented because in a way if a town were to require that but their neighbor doesn't then anybody who wants to do a Redevelopment project would obviously save money by redeveloping in the town that doesn't have that requirement as opposed to the one that does so but with the state making it mandatory for everybody then it'll be a Level Playing Field for all the municipalities in the state so are there any other questions for Francis I do you got y'all got me talking now so my question is Francis what you've heard here you know from the de and also from the public do you think any of these ideas suggestions will impact West Windsor our West Windsor flooding problems the problems that we we have currently now uh a a lot of our development especially what Mr obman had had referred to unfortunately as he also um answered his own question that the flooding is due to the millstone and by the time the water gets here it's already run off of the other communities Upstream of us so all those communities Upstream would have to do something in order for us to see substantial change or significant change and with the flooding happening today any new development that they do isn't going to reduce that so with it's going to be those Redevelopment projects Upstream of us that put in storm water management where there isn't storm water management currently or as uh was discussed U I apologize I don't don't know which resident touched on it but the uh the Watershed Improvement plan oh I'm sorry councilman was uh the Watershed Improvement plan um when those studies are due in about three years um they're going to have on a Town by Town basis each Town identifying what projects could possibly done be done in town to improve water quality to improve flooding um but right now not knowing what those problems are definitively it's hard to be able to justify increasing our standards for new development because again it doesn't change what's already in place it only goes after what's what's in the pipeline in the future so I don't I don't know if that answered your question at all point Thank you are there any other comments from the board at this time um Martina could we review what the motion is that we're about to vote is to management ordinance as to recomend and that it's consistent did we get all the language right soon um I'd like to call the question uh could we have a roll call vote Please Mr laa yes Mr beg yes Miss Bari yes Miss applicate councilman Whitfield yes mayor morat yes Vice chair hberman no the motion has passed uh and that ends our uh agenda for tonight uh Sam when's our next meeting July 17th uh um thank you public for being here tonight when when