yeah so we don't have Liz actually you know what I don't think I do windows I don't have it I don't have it you don't have it good evening and welcome to this meeting of the Old Kings Highway Committee of the town of Yarmouth which is being held in in accordance with chapter 470 of the acts of 1973 as amended at 7:15 p.m. on Monday March 11th 2024 at the Yarmouth Town Hall hearing room located at 1146 Route 28 South Yarmouth moreover pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021 considering certain covid-19 measures this meeting is being run in hybrid mode meaning live uh Zoom participation there may be some phone participation as well six new applications for certificates of appropriateness will be heard this evening in the order listed on the agenda there was a um tabled application which is not being heard this evening please be reminded that our committee's main purpose is to review items for appropriateness and setting and it is the responsibility of the applicant to comply with the regulations of other Town boards and departments including building conservation engineering Health zoning and the sign inspector you should know that there is a 10 calendar day appeal period starting once a decision is filed with the town clerk any person agreed by our decision tonight can appeal to the Regional Commission of the Old Kings Highway historic district our office administrator Lisa Sherman will be happy to answer any questions you may have you may have regarding this process and as some of you know uh all of you on this side of the table know uh speaking of process our process here is to ask the applicant and or the applicant's representative to come and sit at the table before us speaking to the microphones identify yourself or yourselves and present your application without interruption from the committee or members of the public after which the committee will be free to ask questions and make comments after which Butters and other interested members of the public will be free to ask questions and make comments and for that purpose if you will stand up to that Podium and speak into that microphone identify yourself tell tell us where you live and make your comments or ask questions so the first item on the agenda tonight is 24-20 it's to install 40 solar panels on the side and rear roofs of 16 Church Street Peter Barnes is the owner and venture H solar is the agent and who do we have here this evening of the owner if you would please Ventures on the zoom hi uh my name is Tristan and I am representing 16 Church Street so what we're looking to do here is as you know install 40 total total solar panels on the side and rear roof we're hoping that the tree coverage on the front and the side of the house will create enough um break from the public so that the panels will barely be visible um additionally since Church Street is set off Main Street one of our other hopes is that it won't have significant um traffic from anyone visiting in the summer um and so we feel that the layout provided best suits both the homeowner um and the historic district is that is that it yes okay do you have any comments or questions sir um no I I think the venture has done a very good job with the layout I've seen the schematics um the panels are going on uh the newer part of the house that was built off the original part which is all behind and um it does conceal where the panels will be located there's lots of roof space and uh the last thing I would ever want to do would impact the neighborhood negatively as far as the historic district my family has lived in the historic district since the 70s on Bray farm and uh my father at one time was on the zoning board as well so we have Roots here and I want to do this the right way okay comments or questions from the committee Mr chairman I'm just curious we did receive a couple of a letter particularly from a neighbor and I'm wondering if you would would intend to read that into the record you here do I have the letter Lisa yeah sorry didn't uh there's so see that in my packet thank you Rick you're welcome okay dear historic committee I was shocked to receive the request for variance to add 40 solar panels to a roof that abots my property in the historic district of yarmouthport my propert will be impacted by the glare and this addition detracts from the historical quality of the neighborhood this addition will also set precedent for future modern editions and solar panels recent research has shown that degrading solar panel panels leech lead and cadium into the atmosphere opposing an environmental debate sick as the committee that protects the historic architecture of this lovely area I hope you will decline this request and it's signed Douglas and Mary Robinson for Church Street yarmouthport and we have others I think that is actually her as well yes okay same one same one but she added photographs okay thank you I don't know why I didn't get these she UPS the addendum that you brought to me you're kind of deep in the packet I think perhaps way in the back Bob uh oh okay she also attached just just not you're going to hold them up but photograph view right right okay all right so um questions comments from the committee I'm somebody who is uh not generally uh in agreement with the solar panels anywhere near 6A um however I'm looking at uh you know the pictures of how you have these arranged from the front of the house looking rare the only ones that I see that would impact uh the street would be the front-facing ones on the back roof there but I think they they I I was there and I I you really can't see that roof that easily you know it's kind of hidden behind the front piece so I don't know I don't I don't have a problem with this so I went by and looked at the house today and I went specifically up to 6A and got out of the car and walked along to see if I could see those roofs from 6A and even with the leaves off the trees I could not see the facades where it looked like the panels would be from 6A however on Church Street the one facade facing west where the panels are intended to go I felt was very visible from Church Street so that would be my concern is the the ones facing Church Street um I did note that if you had to it looks like you've got the Carriage House space on the back roof for like two more and then space on the forward roof that you've got one two three four five looks like maybe you could put two or three there and uh you've got another backf facing roof which is over the side door wondering why you um haven't utilized that is there a reason why you didn't utilize that roof I did not do the engineering on this project so any reasoning you need need to ask the company you I think if this push comes to shove I think that roof would accommodate quite a few and and you could put a few more in other places so I don't have a real problem with it but if as I said if push came to shove you could utilize that that extra roof I don't know if she's got a reason why you're not using it but anyway uh yes can you hear me yes yes perfect um so as far as the back and front roofs that you had mentioned uh our plans do allow for the fire setbacks so any space that wasn't utilized is mainly to ensure that the fire department would have access in the case of an emergency um when our Engineers do the plans they consider the essentially the shade layout uh which so what our layout is showing now would provide the best production for the homeowner and that's why we chose this specific layout however as you mentioned if push did come to shove we might be able to um work the panels into other areas um it would just have to be run through engineering to ensure that um they were still getting the best production possible why they're not using that roof um if I if I could just comment I um um I did read uh um Mrs Robinson's letter um and the materials she submitted with uh about the adverse effects and harm of birds and all of those issues which um I am aware and becoming more aware of um I I I think this would be very difficult to see from the street except again as Paula said that that roof that west facing roof on the backmost Edition the comment I have I I I don't see any reason sadly not to approve it only because but this is what I want sadly I say that because I just find the arrangement on the back and I know it can't be seen but it's it's such a blight on the roof of this house I I find it I mean this just almost seemingly random and I understand why there are roof penetrations um it's just so unfortunate it's a it's a handsome house it's obviously had many additions over the years and I I amum I I just don't understand why one would want to have to look at that in the back of their home um and uh it's so I'm going to use the word I've used before industrial I don't think it affects the view from the street and for that reason um you know i' I'd vote for it but I um I think it's a blight on the building um covered with these these panels um uh so that's that's my comment on it it it it just seems I just don't understand the desire to be faced with that Tetris uh you know literal Tetris game on the back of your house for a very long time um and then everywhere else you can place them that's my comment on it so Tristan I'm wondering there's a couple of um roof facades facing south that you did not put panels on and I'm wondering if that's because of shade from the trees and I'm i' would be a lot happier if the 12 panels on that west facing roof that are visible from church could be relocated to perhaps south facing roofs that aren't visible from Church Street that they might be able to get you have a dormer roof um on the front the principal house that's got a very shallow pitch and it would be extremely difficult to see panels oh yes that that shed Dormer on the on the South Side wondering why you didn't think of that roof unfortunately I'm not uh necessarily well versed on the engineering portion I do know that everything that they they do is specifically based off of production however if it's something that is required I can definitely bring it back to our Engineers um regarding those 12 panels on the west facing roof to move to the south facing I just am not sure that it's something that they'll be able to do and still get the maximum productivity we have a solar panel expert who normally sits on this committee who unfortunately is not present tonight who could possibly well could absolutely speak to the efficiency implications of but it would seem to me that that Dormer roof in particular would be uh highly effective from a solar from solar a solar perspective and would be very minimal visible um so I just that's a question that was Paramount in my mind when I when I looked at the house and considered this application why not there are there many mature trees that are going to be removed to accommodate these this installation I would not remove trees no um so I just want to clarify my comment just I I guess the thing I do I I I have great concern over the industrial realization of our homes for utilities and and and sir please I hope you I mean utmost respect it just seems like such an intrusion whether or not it can be viewed from the street and and um uh and well if it's in a there's another application we have I think it might be the very next one um which is actually quite near where I live where it is in fact it's the gun wheelhouse where where it's done in a very organized Manner and um but that's my I mean it's your home I just I I do carry with me a concern for while I support solar although I have concerns over it um and what happens when these things become dated and are no longer uh making money for the power companies um that's not a reason to say no to them but um that's that's the concern I have is that it's very it's just industrializing the roof of a very handsome house even if I can't see it from the road but it's not my house and on a very historic Street I might add I um we prioritize our protections of course for 6A but also for historic byways and I don't know that um the town planners in their greater wisdom have chosen Church Street and a number of the streets north of 6A uh as historic byways uh but I feel that they should and uh I have um put in a request for Church Street and a number of other streets to be included uh as historic byways um specifically for that reason so I think we're additionally sensitive to um to Church Street and Thatcher Street and other streets that U Winter Street for example that are north of 6A and are very historically significant to the town of yarmouthport um are there any other questions or comments um Tristan I was going to ask so there's 40 total panels uh is did you guys design that because you need 40 to generate the amount of electricity needed for the house yes so the 40 panels are basically they are based off the current usage and production that is being utilized at the home okay um thank you so I I personally I would like to see those 12 panels put on a different roof that can't be seen from church and perhaps south facing like that Dormer with a shallower pitch where I would think that' be even greater efficiency with a shallower pitch I would like to possibly see you guys look at that as a as an option yeah of course we're definitely willing to work with uh the preservation of the historic Community as well as uh what benefits the homeowner most so if that's something uh moving those 12 panels on the west facing roof roof to south facing um or in on that Dormer if that's what's preferred we can definitely look into that and maybe continue There are options this one in particular Mr Grenville well I'm all for anything that would make it less visible then in which case would it be Is it feasible potentially to use the existing structure opposite the house which appears to have an east facing right theage house room the detached garage right yeah well you know that would require trenching to run power back over to the house and the switching panels um I don't know if it's enough there is a lot of that's nowhere as extensive of a roof to put that many panels on it's a much smaller structure so I don't know if it would work I think I was suggesting that it might alleviate the congestion on the main house well I mean I as I said I'm committed to doing this the best way possible and if I can cut down on the visibility from Church Street I will do it but um I'd have to look at the feasibility of that and talk to some Engineers um my just recently well in the course of 2021 22 I finished building a 10,000 ft at veterinary hospital and we had to make a lot of accommodations to do that that was my third one um so I'm familiar with doing this and as I said I am committed to doing this the right way I don't want to negatively impact the neighborhood um I agree with you the idea of doing this to such a gracious old house um we saw this house and bought it in 4 days um you know it's everything we've ever dreamed of owning but there are some problems on the cape and one of which is the utilities and the overload of the utilities uh we've already um cut out and got rid of the water sprinkling system uh put in a high efficiency uh furnace putting in a heat pump and um doing everything we can to minimize our impact um on the utilities and just make a a Greener impact on the neighborhood and yes I'd like to make it um less visible if we can but I'm committed to also making it Greener uh the last couple hospitals I built all got certified as green between reusing certain things and not gardening and other things but it's I won't waste your time with that so Mr Barnes if I may add um just so you know I will vote to approve this just so you know my vote all right so I'm not going to I I'm not going to say no to your application I just think it might be to your obvious a sensitive man you've bought a important and lovely beautiful home I looked at the listing trust me I look at them all the time so I've seen the listing for it I would just suggest to you that perhaps working with your designer and maybe as you know as Bill said there seeing if you can use I is that a hard scape is that asphal at your drive or it is okay yes it is but seeing if you could located on the east side of your Carriage House or garage as it is and maybe using the the the shed roof that is in the front of your house but pretty high up it would be impossible to see um you'd have to get back pretty far before you see the edge of the panels that maybe you could I mean I I I have less of a problem with these 12 kind of facing forward CU at least they're in an orderly way if you could maybe between this roof and if you could do it if it wasn't too costly the roof of your carriage house that you could somewhat normal lies this I do it like a Tetris game this kind of totally random because not for me and not for your neighbors and and not for 6A for you because you're going to be looking at it for a long time and that I think it might be worth again you have my vote for this as it is exploring that not taking away any of the power you hope to get and the benefit you hope to get from it and your socially conscious and environmentally conscious views I think perhaps you could maybe massage this a bit move them around and if you chose to do that come back before us I think you'd probably for the you know get an approval um and um and maybe make that so when you're in your backyard you don't have to look at it I'm actually thinking of you not really anyone else and that's my that's that's my final comment on it I don't know if you would just like to look at this I mean I you've got options here so if you refuse to I think you've got three options that you can put these things that are uh people are not happy with on those three roofs so and at this time I'm not knowledgeable enough to know for a fact that I can do that I will work with the company and sit down with their engineers and get from them the best they can do as far as moving those panels and what we can and do you want to take this or or I've got you've got the pictures so the the three I'm talking about are the three sort of right in a row here yep um and I think those are your best options because I don't know I don't know what the vote's going to be but um I don't know so oh regardless I will talk to the company and if it is able to move those um anyway yes I know I would make a less of an imprint and move so if we're done with comments from the committee uh there is a an a butter I believe who would like to address US butter would you stand up at the microphone identify yourself and where you live and tell us what you think of this is it working okay I'm I'm right next door in 20 24 Church Street right you speak into the microphone please okay thank you thank you and I have a very little house Marcia tell us I know your name but would you tell us all yes my name is Marcia melor thank you and uh I am worried as to where 40 of these solar panels are going to be in relationship to my little house I will have to protect my house where I have a garage at which was has turned into a small house right on top of me right now that's the driveway place looking at his house are you from the street are you on the right or left I'm on the oh from the street I'm on the on his left your up the street from she's further down no down the street she's over here closer to Thatcher Shore Road here let's me see yes further away from can I bring you a picture can I bring you the picture can I bring you a picture of this solar panels no I just want to see oh pictures so your house is right here I take it yes this is Church Street Front Street but this wait let's see where they are here you're over here no she's not she right this is Church Street right here Church Street right here okay is here where's the driveway driveway is here you're see this the driveway yes and I'm right here might help her and I'm I'm very small and there's another box there's a two-car garage right here yes yeah this might help you I was looking for all right so again I'll place it so this is your house there's his garage yes so it's right on top of what you would find if you look at this so if you if you can I'll put it forgive me everyone who's watching this that you can't see I'm just describing from a a plot map and a and a roof view like a Google map view of the roof so from your house if you look over to Mr Barn's house you have his garage and then you're looking at this side so the reality is as it is designed it's on my side well but but not fac not facing you because remember you're looking at this side of the house you're looking at the Gable end of the house and the solar panels are here and here so you won't be looking at them there will be no have a garage in the way yes and there's no reflected you won't have any reflection on your property from these yes I understand you don't want the glare so you will you will have none of that because again they the roof is I'm going to bend this here the roof this is the roof facing you mhm and there are solar panels here and there are solar panels here so you're looking this way oh I see I see what you're saying so you will are here and the garage is here right next to your house so and then the ones on the house are here are here so I'm let's say I'm I'm showing you this right here this back portion yes and these are the these are the garages that are in the correct this garage is so close to your house that you probably can't even see beyond it you probably didn't even see his house I no but this was a very ugly fight that we had over that oh the garages that is so you're going to be looking at the edge of the solar panels there will be no glare at all the only potential view we'll have with solar panels are these which are in the front and I actually think his garage would prevent it so you would see the edge of the solar panels oh okay so this is on the opposite side of the roof this faces the pool this faces 6A yes I know so so you really would not these will not in any way reflect light on your home nor would that and nor would this yeah than is that helpful to you did that I hope so it remains to no you will not be able to see oh oh look there split me around if you would thank you so much all right are there any other abutters or interested members of the public who would like to speak to this application yes Mrs Robinson has raised their hand okay Mrs Robinson hello can you hear us yourself there you go there we go all right I'm at Fort Church Street and I want my neighbors to be happy with everything however I walked all over my property and I can see from 6A directly into where the pool area is where the proposed I believe panels will be situated and I can see them from 6A and then I go down Church Street and I can see them from every angle on Church Street now I may be incorrect and they're not going to be facing south and they're not going to be over the pool but from where I looked and where I took pictures I could see everything and you can also see the house when you go down to Thatcher Hall and you look from the rear side or the side you can see the house so I just think the metal waterfall is going to impact my property and I don't know what I'm going to do do if you put those in it's not part of the historical aesthetic of this area it's very near the immediate vicinity of the green which is historical most of the houses on Church Street are historical and registered 16 Church Street itself is registered with this historical registry I'm sorry I had to I don't know how to describe it anyhow as long as I can't see them which I believe I can because my property looks right into that house all along the side and when I walk down the street I see it from the other side so I don't know where you're talking about moving these things Mrs Robinson may I ask may I ask you um so across the street from Mr Barnes is the church right are you are you on the corner of Thatcher Shore or are you on the corner of 6A I'm on the corner of 6A and I went out to the corner of 6A I walked to the corner of 6A and I took a picture and those the roof is very steep so half of the side of the house would be solar panels and they're directly directly facing 6A and they directly face my property when I look out my window of My Den where I spent a lot of time I look directly into the side of the house which is very Steep and would be 1 half solar panels so that's what I object to I think and as a realtor a 40-year real estate career I know these panels do affect property values in historical areas they're not something that people would relish to move into next to I know it helps them but I don't think it supports the historical um goals of the neighborhood is that Mrs Robinson are you done um I don't know really let me see I also read a study that water foul flying over these shimmering panels often mistake them for water and can dive into them and this is a recent study I read so maybe we need an ecological study to keep putting these things all over and I know I work tirelessly to keep my house within the parameters of a historic neighborhood so what if I decide I want to put him on and the guy behind me says well I don't want him here and then he says well I say well I the other people got them so and now I get them so this this starts a dominoes well I don't know I don't think that you know that reflects what the King's Highway all right you you do understand that although I believe that I could speak for the other members of the committee that were not unsympathetic to the impact or potential impact on water fou but that that is not within our purview we are simply um basing our I'm in support of the animals and I don't know if Birds want a nest near them or what nobody really knows as much about it as you know they just put them on because someone's selling them and you know I just I hope he gets what he wants and he can put him in an area of his yard that doesn't affect anybody on Church Street because Church Street looks at it from every angle and that's not fair to me and I'm not going to allow that you know I can go farther not talking about the issue yeah all right um are you finished well I don't know I can't think of anything else at moment that's fine thank you are there any other uh comments from anyone regarding this application either on the committee or among the public Sydney would you speak a little more towards because you did get out and walk it where where exactly you walk so I I parked in the chapter house parking lot and walked along the south side of 6A toward um the library and looked across to see if I could see any of the roof facades Beyond it's 10 Church Street I believe is the Robinson's house so I could not see any roof facades even with no leaves on the trees so I'm not I mean I understand that the Robinson are impacted directly from their house um what concerns me is the view from Church Street cuz I could not see any solar panels from um 6A and that was with bare trees right so Mr bonds I I think I'm not sure the way that this is going to go but it seems to me that you would benefit if we tabled this and you took this picture or whatever and talked and and try to put these things on the roofs that are not visible you've got three available roofs that you can do this on because if we say that uh we're not going to vote okay for this then you're going to have to appeal and everything you it might be better just to step back table it do a little more work on it and come back again I'll be happy without prejudice and work with the people that know what they're doing because I can't make any promises do do you feel you've gotten sufficient direction from this committee I do I also want to point out the north side of the property alongside the the house behind my garage that's all Evergreen you can't once you go down Church Street a little bit you can't see back actually by the time you turn left to thater it's it's blocked off so and we do have a solid barrier of of Evergreens there so can I make a motion well if I may one thing first the only thing I'll say about this not to confuse the issue and I'm not trying to it seems to me that effort was spent to not put anything on the south facing roofs and close to the Street and we are effectively although I agree that on that shed Dormer on the south side of the main house it will effectively be invisible um but I just I do think effort was put into hiding them away from a 6A viewshed at all so that's the only thing I'm going to say I do think there was care was taken and and well I think I I I because of the roof penetrations on that East Side that no one can see um you know that's where it got a little you know random but I I do think effort was put into placing them as unobtrusively as it relates to 6A as is possible although I agree with the chairman that that if they're put on the roof of the shed Dormer that faces South they will be all but invisible to people You' have to get pretty far back to see an edge of the of the panel comparable case in point um we had uh an application that came before us uh for a house on the corner of gingerbread and Thatcher Shore Road um the U the west facing corner of gingerbread and Thatcher Shore Road and the applicant had placed all of the panels or proposed placing all of the panels on the back of the house and it was was pointed out by you Paula that they had a convenient place to to u to to a convenient spot to place the panels on the front Dormer roof because the pitch of the roof was so shallow that it wouldn't be visible and I just had dinner with a resident of 6A who said I walk that street all the time and I can't see the panels so um so there there was a reason why I brought up that that as a possible location but I think um that's why I asked if you felt you have enough guid well direction from this committee because there's a little bit of a Divergence of opinion here which I guess gives you options uh and gives the the company that that is working for you options uh and you seem like a very reasonable and agreeable man working on the premise here I read the the The Zone and they said that all I could get from it was you it just can't be seen from 6A the visibility is we worked on that but if it's more if it's more on Church Street or anything else we can minimize the visibility um all for if they can do the feasibility study for me and show me that it can be done we can use a shed yes I motion please I'd like to make a motion to T to table application 24- a20 40 solar panels at 16 Church Street to allow the applicant the opportunity to revisit placement of the panel so that they're not visible from Church Street I'll second all in favor of tbling the application signify by saying I I I I I and I thank you for your cooperation Mr Barnes you have a good evening thank you sir you congratulations on your beautiful home thank you very much we're very happy it's a dream location too but you have to look at that darn church across the street terrible when you see the sunset behind it ugly you poor dear good night night there next application on the agenda is 24- a021 is to inall install 14 solar panels on the rear roof of 67 I believe the pronunciation is way uh Kevin Belin is the owner and Trinity solar is the agent and do we have either Mr velin or a representative from Trinity solar available to speak to us this evening can you hear me yes hi this is Brendan representing Trinity silver and um Kevin belon fine present your application please Brendan so the proposal is for the installation of 14 Mac black panels installed uniform on the rear of the house um it's pretty simple system is that it that that's it okay uh questions or comments from the committee I I'll just add I live I live very near this I drive across uh I can I anyway I live on um are now uh I don't drive past this house but it's very close to to where I am while Paula just mentioned that this will be very visible as you drive down ien um and I would agree that that's the case but you know given the organization of them and which is very uh carefully planned out as as far as I see it um um I have no issue with this application I don't either particularly I'm just saying that it's completely visible from my Lean Street but below given the location of the house or where you know I have no problem with it other questions or comments from the committee questions or comments from abutters or other interested members of the public hearing none I'll entertain a motion I move to approve this application second it's been moved and approved all in favor favor of approving this application please signify by saying I I I I I and I congratulations thank you for your time this evening thank you Brendan well it really is about context isn't it yeah okay right you sign that sign that good one thank you [Applause] the next application on the agenda is 24- a022 to paint trim restore doors replace rotten wood and change hay and barn doors to Vertical panels at 414 Route 6A um Kevin Shaw and Caitlyn Collins or are the owners hi Hi how are you this evening good how are you doing and we have received a letter in support of your application which I will read into the record several Dear Old Kings Highway committee members as a Butters to the historic home on the Old Kings Highway we have reviewed this application are in and are in full support this property has been neglected in the past and we are delighted that this couple have committed the time interest and resources in restoring their home respectfully Lisa and John Grady Judith recknagle and an lardi and Joel Jason Sandra kfal and Tom McLoud all signed this letter so we love you offered a good start could you present our your application please uh we are proposing to remove the Battleship Gray trim that I don't think was approved to begin with with a more historical color um we'd like to not necessarily restore the doors but bring them back to a natural wood tone on the front door are two side doors and on the barn and the hey door and then change the panels on the hey door and the barn door to be vertical instead of this diamond pattern which to us doesn't feel his historical per se so okay um but that's all going to the the the changing the wood on the doors to a wood tone it's all going to depend on how much rot there is underneath it so that's our goal but um we don't know until we start stripping paint so Mr chairman are you excuse me is that it that's it okay go ahead um Mr chairman if I may bring it up by the way congratulations on this house I'm sure you've heard of the trials and tribulations associated with this piece of property so it is wonderful to see people that have bought it and it's it's a it's a it it's a sad little house right now quite frankly and and um and things have been done to it without even coming before us and approval and all of that I think one actually that was never cited was the replacement of the windows with replacement windows um which but the reason I'm I'm bringing this up Mr chairman is there are I looked there is from May 11th of 22 an outstanding um letter of um of non-compliance of uh for things which some of which we're fixing here tonight on the color and I'm wondering if we could um because I know as purchases of their property they effectively inherit the violations if we could if we could if we could um clear their clear their record um of of these pre prior violations um so that they're not saddled with them and and and have them I don't know if that means withdrawing the letter question do they inherit do they inherit the violations we've spoken many times on the phone to that was one of the first things when they moved in is that they wanted to know what the letter was so I sent it to them so they could see what the still the outstanding and then she had mentioned changing the trim which is gray which was not approved um I think a lot of the other things had went you know was there was a piece of sculpture and things like that in the yard which is gone so there's most of the things I think are gone I don't I think the fencing is the only thing the gate fencing related um at the end of the driveway I um but um um if we I would I think it would be I take a look at the letter um but I think it would be great if we could if we could wipe these folks clean of any potential it's our letter to withdraw at this point so I think why not if for the record um the color of the front door that's a fabulous front door by the way do you I've got to ask you I couldn't see in the photos do you have a little doorbell in it too I I purchased some doorbell yeah yeah the hard the the hardware on the door it's the glass has been spray frosted spray painted it's very poorly done everything's just I'm not surprised um uh so I would just it's a fabulous door that 1880s door is fantastic I would suggest to you that it's probably not all that pretty once you strip it which I think you'll have to do anyway but you know I would just suggest that you might find that it's because typically they paint these doors um unless they're made of you know mahogany or some great material and often they weren't that's a rather modest door for the period but I would just say you might find that it isn't all that pretty the wood on it um um and I would just encourage you cuz it certainly is a violation they replace those windows are are have made it smaller and all of that in the fullness of time I think you'd be much happier if you put back windows that are that fit the opening um uh obviously you're not here before us tonight but it's a it's an adorable house and um and uh I'm so happy that you're the caretakers of it now thank you yeah um you'll be seeing a lot of us cuz the windows are next but we we had to fill in the and I would please encourage you when you do look Windows look to getting Windows they will be more money with true in the modern sense divided light Windows where their Ms are on the outside and on the inside and I mean I think I don't know if you have any historic photographs of that house this yep what are the windows are they two over tws are they 6 over six it's six over six think I would encourage you to to make sure the windows are are really you have that presence from the street cuz it's a as I always say they're the eyes of the building and um um it it will transform the building back to the adorable little building that it is and that's our but we were hoping to get rid of the windows first but it just it didn't work out that way are there any other comments or questions from the committee my only comment is I really like this color you picked it's look really nice thank you wanted something a little more than white but yeah thank you I just have one comment when you get this all fixed up cut those trees down so we can see it it'll be beautiful we are we we're we removed the one smoke bush in the front of the house 20 footes I don't know yeah is this your first time with the historic house yes it is yes but we're both very big into historic preservation I've been it's a blessing and a curse our but enjoy but it's a wonderful responsibility to have and know that you're clearly going to protect it and bring it back to really what it should be which is great y now we're very grateful to be on the road I I can I can attest to the blessing and curse uh having lived in two historic houses um currently one in yarmouthport any other questions or comments from the committee questions or comments from abutters or other interested members of the public hearing none I will entertain a motion I move to approve I second all in favor signify by saying I I I I I and I and congratulations and if you would sign this document which simply indicates if you're going to make any changes you'll let us know in advance you're going to have a llama Farm there correct or thank we have uned good luck good luck you guys on another issue related to your house I got your phone number that was on here so it's a journey have fun have fun thank you thank you fces fces f three more fences three more fences a beautiful hisory I driven you partr the Stree would you want to come in I'll show you what we're doing if the fences are in compliance and you guys know my first go fences if the fences are in compliance it will improve the property significantly do you guys approve black chain link because it's coming up for the next three typically not typically not but the next item on the agenda is 24- a023 it's to install a cedar board fence and an outdoor shower at 10 Bray Farm Road South bitman are the owners and do we have Thomas tonight we have Thomas good evening okay tell us about your application well um we recently purchased a 10 bra Farm Road South after a long search of uh relocating down to the cape and um we have two uh rather large dogs who are used to a invisible fence on a six acre property and um the one black lab when he sees a rabbit or a deer or something else he will take it he will take it we will hear the Yelp and and he will take it so actually there's two purposes we'd like to obviously contain the the dogs as well as um a little bit more privacy from from the uh from bray Farm Road we're at right at the corner of where Oliver is Oliver is our is our neighbor to the South and my wife said that if I don't get a outdoor shower in there's going to be issues heavy pressure now now hopefully she's watching somewhere that's inside the fence right the shower is that it it is it's going to be invisible the the facade of the house is uh facing um uh facing south Southwest and we're planning on putting the fence I think it's it's it's Illustrated fairly well in the in the documentation um it'll probably be about 5 ft uh in back of the front side of the house and it'll uh run along the side to to uh to intersect the current fence that's there that separates my property with Oliver's parking lot okay there's another 4ft fence on the other side that would uh by the way my the butter I met him for the first time wonderful gentleman I can't remember his name he's right in the back of us and he had a concern about where I had uh drawn in the fence in the back because there's a series of trees and he was asking well what are you going to do to keep the dogs from going in the trees well I said we re thought that we would move the fence to intersect the fence that's in back so it'll be completely enclosed with the cedar picket fence and of course again the U shower will will be not because of that 6ot fence in the front facade it would completely and because the elevation of Bray Farm Road is about 4 and a half to 5 fet uh lower than the elevation of where the fence is going so if you look at an angle that shower could be 12T tall and you still wouldn't be able to see it even if you did see it it's a handsome shower thank you are you done Mr bitman because I one I do have one other and I'm not sure if it's appropriate to bring it up here or not so uh subsequent to me submitting this um application I studied the uh construction and installation of the fence that borders my property and Oliver's and it's subar um it it they there's a slope a little bit of a slope and the correct way to install this type of stockade fence on a slope is not to buy 8ft panels because what happens think about it when you install an 8ot panel on a slope the pickets are no longer Plum mhm so whoever installed it didn't want take the time to install Plum posts put your nailers at a slope and then install your pickets to follow the slope of the property so if you look at it's not all that you know when you buy a property you see everything right you see every little thing that's wrong that you want to do and so I've got picket I'm going to exaggerate you know like this yes and so it's also falling apart it needs to be replaced so my question to the the board is do I have to resubmit or can I add it to this to either repair or replace most likely replace that fence so is the fence owned by you or is it owned by Olivers I don't know well that would be the first thing to find out my the the the owner of uh I guess the gentleman that used to run Olivers sold a Dale I can't remember was last night but he owns the the barn across the street and he believes it was his fence that he put up so uh I don't know that for sure I'd have to get some documentation but I believe it is the property of of of Oliver I believe that if you're replacing it in kind yeah um and is on your property you could do it with an application of an exemption rather than coming before the full board okay so that's that would be handled by either the chairman or myself uh and you wouldn't have to come before us you would just submit the I think the fee is even considerably less like it's half the price I don't but you would just submit uh for an exemption to replace in kind you can almost argue it's maintenance but it's not cuz you're replacing it so um uh that that that could be you know you're putting back what's already there right well actually it would be an upgrade because what's there is the cheapest way out they went with 3 and 1/2 in posts instead of 5in posts and and anyway it I'm kind of an over engineer when I do projects like this well they last longer and also the other piece of this and I I'll be brief is the you'll see on the plot plan um you'll notice a structure it's a 8 by8 um shed uh that's in the corner that's in the um North uh West corner of the property that also is about if you sneeze it's going to fall down um so I'd like to replace that uh in the exact form that it's a cedar it's an a it would be the exact same building I would stick build it I wouldn't be a kit I would stick build it myself um and it would just be the exact replacement again I I would do that on the that would also be an exemption because of the size for like question thank you very much um I only question I have sir is um first of all the rendering you provided it's always appreciated to see it um and I think I understand what you've done here but I just want to be sure you the the rendering you show say of the front of your house yes which is a very handsome little structure um the fence you're showing there is not you're not proposing a wideboard fence it is a traditional Stockade Fence try to find a picket fence toot shop in there it's a traditional stocking 3in pickets with a with a you know and of course you know that you have to have the the the exterior has to be the side you can't climb um yes of course I've never understood why anyone would want to put on a fence surrounding their property the the the ladder on the outside but okay people like to do it um but uh no great I I have no other questions or comments so I just have one question I'm just a little bit confused you talked about changing where the fence goes because of the tree line so may approach the please bench Ben the bench yes so cuz cuz I drove by there and the trees are pretty dense but I can see how a dog could sneak underneath me see I thought he was going with that to match the door no look they were they can do you see this fence right here where am I this fence here it's actually not the scale this fch actually extends be fantastic that yeah so I think these two women are these two they sharing mean it's here instead of fence is right here this existing be on the same side the street oh that's true fence that okay so you get rid of this put it here inad put it there instead that makes sense that enough space Oh this is this is like it doesn't add anything for the for the dogs I have a lab too you have a lab too we have a 120b golden 13 black lab well you feed them well 130 lb black lab green beans green beans green beans it's a big black lab my dog green beans you're good dogs I move to approve this are there questions or comments from the committee second D I guess not I got any questions or comments from the abutters or other members of the public okay go ahead make your motion it's been moved and seconded sorry Mr chairman I'm sorry Mr chairman all in favor of right out the window approval signify by saying I I and it produces a lot of energy I I I all right I apologize Mr that's all right it's okay um so zealous uh if you're going to make any changes um if you just come up and sign this document that says if you're going to make any changes you'll let us know thank you owner would be you oh you pardon me that's sou parness I am as well okay thank you good luck with it good luck congratulations on your new home no problem okay sounds good you're welc goodby the pquad ladies yes is this a coincidence we're the two nurses fence night on Circle okay dogs are going to be besties so so I will I'll speak now before uh we call you up I don't know which one of you this is Patty Hartsfield so you're putting a fence in we in well we lost a dog in November uh due to cancer that we found out about the day before the effectively we had to realize she was ending her life in a week but um we have adopted a new one and um a stray from Arkansas who's about 3 years old a Chihuahua and we just recently put in a fence for which was an exemption because it was uh how you saw it so exemption application and um I go through the protocols and uh so we did it for the very same reason you are I'm sorry about your dog oh thank you it was it was terrible I don't know if you uh saw John Stewart did you see that John Stewart thing from two weeks ago well John Stewart who does The Daily Show are John Stewart or a different John Stewart John stew from The Daily Show yeah his dog had died the day before and at the end of the show he did a tribute to his dog it's it will make you cry it will make you cry it's beautifully done and uh he talks about he wishes for the end for people I hope once in your life you find that dog that one dog that's the best and the one we lost Lucy was that one dog but my first dog was Lucy oh really for 16 years who I lost in April I had for 18 years well thank you I purposely did this not during the application sir it's all right it's okay um but we will move on to the next application so it is 24- a024 it's to install a fence at 10 pquad Circle Patty Hartsfield is the owner and I'm guessing you must be Patty I am Patty okay tell us about your application Patty okay good evening um as you can tell from my packet I'm requesting approval to fence in a portion of my backyard and I'm requesting to use uh the black vinyl chain link fencing so just a few points I want to make tonight I know that that does have an industrial look I've heard it referenced um and I don't necessarily disagree but it is the most economical option and um I'm single I'm retired I work seasonally at a golf course and I just have to be very costc conscious um if necessary I can accommodate um a portion of a wood fence and the gate on the left back portion of the house which is the only part of the fence that's visible from the street with the remainder being the um chain link it's not a privacy fence I'm not looking for a privacy fence I just want containment for my dog like we were just talking about and being um a dog I haven't met coming hopefully coming this Friday from Texas probably very anxious um 2 years old I just want a space where she can run and play and I don't have to worry about losing her and having her run off I you know we don't have any kind of relationship yet so I don't know that she'll listen to me so it's really Safety and Security and I also just want to use the space for for training I'm not I would never just say go out in the backyard I just don't do that we'll take walks on on a leash uh we'll go to Parks but I would just like to have that space in the back so that she can be off leash already um shrubs and trees are around the periphery of the proposed fence and the chain link can be easily camouflaged over 1 to three years with climbing vines and shrubs um I might even use wood trellises at different intervals just to just for the look of it I think it'd be really pretty chain link is long lasting and it doesn't require it doesn't have the maintenance needs of a wood fin V which is important to me as time goes on um and also the black chain link vents is that's surrounded by the shrubs and the trees and has the plantings around it I think can actually be uh more attractive than some of the wood fences that aren't maintained that I've seen around yarmouthport so I don't know that it would be a distraction and lastly a pquad circle is just a circle with about 12200 homes off of Union it's like halfway between 6 and 6A so it's not it's not a throughway it's not a street that visitors go go down it's a destination for those of us who live there and there's only about five or six who are year round residents the others have uh their second homes so I appreciate your consideration tonight thank you okay thank you questions com comments from the committee um I have one com one question so you mentioned on your notes that um what you label on your diagram is section A so facing the front of the house the left side there's like a 9 foot jog in the back corner that's the only part that's visible from the street did you consider starting at the back corner going straight back I'm just wondering why you brought it out that 9 I thought about that but in the back corner that would be excluded there's just a large perennial garden and it actually would be more I think it'd be more tasteful if it's as I've got it designed versus coming in and cutting off a part of that but I did think about that just curious why yeah okay thank you MH any other questions or comments from the committee questions or comments from abutters or other interested members of the public I have a question yes what's the name of the dog I thought you said you were all going do this at the beginning when they your V condition well they called her Bella but I'm going to call her sopia okay well that that's an important question Mr chairman thank you in full sympathy preservation architect I I know these questions that must be asked and is obviously a dog lover okay now that we've got that established any other questions or comments from the committee I I just I think we should discuss you did mention as an alternate to put that section A as Stockade just that one little bit with the gate and I don't know is that something we want to consider or we just want to allow her to do the chain link hallway run I thought it was a good idea but are we going to mandate that or let her let her decide I think it would look better well you know speaking to the seriousness of the application I I do I do think that Care Effort has been taken obviously cost effects too to make this as invisible from the street as it can be with that little projection that we see on these homes um uh that that projects out beyond the garage in the in the and then you mean the 9 ft at the corner yeah that um I I the only thing I'd say about it is I would I if it would look odd but it's it would be it might be difficult to put one section which would probably be an 8ft section but to put one section there with a fence in it and have it be stay at all I I almost think you'd have to go back another section you know 8T and 8T to make it a stable thing um uh because especially if you have a gate that thing's going to be just vibrating um I don't think it's a a bad idea but I'm but I've also seen those uh Gates what size gate the 3ot 4ot gate there a 4ot gate and there's a 5 foot fencing where those chain link gates can have you know that you that that black vinyl covered chain link isn't really horrible and it's only 4T tall I think it the problem comes because like a six foot and then it really does look like a you know something you'd see in an Alleyway um uh um but I think you'd have to go back I think it would be nice nicer looking but I do think you'd have to not from the view from the street but for the structural stability of the fence you'd have to turn the corner uh so that it was it's a freestanding thing and then the chaining fence would start but again I don't know if we need to mandate it I actually have almost the exact same situation and the fence is fine it works totally because they they sink those post so far that it doesn't go anywhere even with a gate it has a gate I have a gate as well so I stand corrected it looks like there is there's no leaves on it now but in this winter picture it looks like there's a pretty good size shrub there at that front corner of the garage they probably of the garage is that the I'm sorry not the garage the um left corner left corner of the house so I imagine when that's in bloom is that a for CIA or something when that's no it's a lilac lilac so when that's in BL that probably and it gets hides a lot of the yes and actually you can't tell cuz this time of year obviously is the worst time for these pictures but during the um spring and fall I mean spring and summer and into the fall it's really I can't even see the house behind me yeah at all and then to the left as well it's very full and I do plan to do the plantings because I think it's a great opportunity to use the fencing for climbing any other comments or questions from anyone do I hear a motion I move to approve this application is there a second a second all in favor please signify by saying I I I I wof and I so if you would sign this document yes we do have fun here A C toe before you came out today I did well I think you should right here you didn't know this be so much fun no you're such a boob thank you same to you welcome Sophia great good luck thank you so much luck did you just call her Sophia didn't you say the dog's name was going to be Sophia sop what's the matter he called I thought he called her Sophia I think he's losing it no I said welcome Sophia the dog oh my good God God elderly groups are hard hearing up here at the T next this is a big piece of property right here the whole [Music] [Applause] Corner we lefties all righty ready ready do you have a dog I do oh awesome no uhoh this is a fence and dogs night I know all right well if that Union Street wasn't so busy it's I mean I've been at my house for about 15 years and it's probably three times as busy as it was then when I first start came last item on the agenda tonight 24- a25 install a fence at 9 pquad Circle and Andrea warl Cronin is the owner and are you Andrea yes I am all right please tell us your okay vents project so um I have have a eight-month-old Karen Terrier who's a ground Beast who will run and again Union Street is extremely busy so I'm using it to contain her um when you're looking at the house so it's it's 3/4 most of it's going to be 3/4 of it is going to be wood 4 foot Cedar picket uh with 1 inch spacing between the picket fence dog aard although it from a distance probably looks like it's um so it's basically going to enclose my patio out of the back door it's just going to be in the back however I live in the middle of the circle which is kind of a fish bowl so um it's going to be a four 4ft gate 8ft section around the patio a 4ft gate and then straight back that runs parallel with Union and then it's going to turn the corner an 8ft section and then from the 8ft section because I have abraitis I've got five of them I wanted to do black chain link all the way down to the corner there's an existing chain link which has been there since I moved there so I'm just going to be just butting it up to the corner of that I have no responsibility for that I don't know where that came from so which I'm I don't know I'll let you finish sorry go ahead so um but I I I I don't I think the black chain link is most of it where it's going to be placed is not going to be seen but where it is is just at the corner there I plan on planting um an evergreen which is green all year so whether it's a couple of uh red dendrons although they're kind of slow growing but or I'll be doing some sort of green Evergreen Conifer type thing so it's the black chain link will be on the inside and the plantings will be on the outside yeah revid will be on the outside mhm so you can't see it okay so if I can understand I think so you have a patio M which is I'm assuming about a foot off the ground so you're having a is it no it says 3 foot would oh that's the length of it yeah 3T then 4T then 32 ft to the corner then 8 ft back then the arraiy with the chain link 56 ft of it to the corner there's existing fence Running Up That 45° 59 minutes and 20 seconds East uh property line and then a 20ft section of wood on the front yeah understood so I'm so the property line this that's existing chain link along this side okay thank you it's 4 foot I it's black it's actually green I have no idea it's been there since I moved in is it in decent shape it's actually most of it's covered by Ivy um yeah I mean the green is it's still you can't really see I plan on putting um some vegetation cuz I I don't really love the look at chain link um but you know the black up against the abides you can't really see it I know it's there if I did my thought is if I do all wood all along the back it's kind of really going to close give it a more enclos and I don't have a huge yarn but I'm all about putting plantings on to soften that look all of the fencing is going to be 4 feet high the wood in the CH in the okay four feet not the ever be out there by herself I've been informed coyotes can jump a 4 foot fence but other questions or comments from the committee or from the one butter present don't you even I guess not so I can't remember the last time we approved a chaining fence on this road it was fairly recently I think all right um is there a motion I move to approve okay second all in favor kindly signify by saying I I I and I I I all right so I think you probably will remember from the last and other applications if you just sign this m here if you're going to make any changes let us know please oh absolutely order nice that you are both friends and came together I think that's love it yeah yeah I think this is the first time in memory that we've had these dual applications uh tandem applications come you don't about each other because you're opposite numbers you're up you're across the street from right yeah and yeah thank God we don't live across next to Mrs Robinson all I feel a song coming on sing I apprciate everything that you say I there you know I like a building to look you know windows are hug allil oh that's a great house thank you that's a great little house and I think those folks really want to you know give it the life it deserves window they are they're a perfect example of what a real replacement window stuffed between the frame does to a house it's horrible yeah it is they're smashing and they did it just you know without coming before us they just did it smashing proper as they did everything else those prior owners well thank you both thank Youk you have a good night good job ladies all right so we need to approve the minutes of the February 12th and February 26 meetings we approve the February 12th ones there weren't enough people here there not enough people here there's me who was at that me was I on that one by Zoom so I don't know were are you were you up via Zoom the one I missed was the I wasn't here you were here you were here Cindy you were here so the three of us were here so I guess we can't approve we can't approve them all right so do I hear a motion you were remote but you were here to approve those two meetings I'm not going to make a motion because I don't remember them but I'll I move to approve the meeting minutes from February 12 12 and February 26th 26th second uh all who are eligible to vote on that please signify by saying an i okay um other business other business so um I learned this afternoon when the mail arrived that um there is going to be an appeal for 456a it came as a great surprise to me because uh I had been informed by our lawyer Jim Wilson that uh the applicant missed the deadline um so I called him to find out why we were making this exception he was very definite on the phone and um essentially what he said was that he decided he was going to leave it up to the Comm Commissioners at the appeal hearing which will be held on the 27th Tuesday I believe that's the correct date to decide whether to uh hear the appeal or not or to make an exception uh whether they whether to make an exception to hear the appeal or whether to be hard and fast and not hear the appeal on what grounds um interesting question and uh the it was a long conversation and uh he spoke in a lot of le le which made my head spin to some degree but in essence it had to do uh some of you may remember my discussing an appeal that came that I attended some time before a sandwich appeal in which uh the issue was whether a I believe the correct pronunciation is Hogle culture Mound could be considered to be a structure or not and Jim Wilson's opinion was that it was a Structure uh by a three to2 vote the Commissioners disagreed with that opinion and decided that it was not a structure and therefore the sandwich commission's decision uh that they did not have purview over the appeal was upheld so on that basis um what Jim decided that he was going to allow this appeal to go forth and let the Commissioners decide whether or not it will be heard uh came as a complete shock to me and it's seems pred setting so uh it's been published and um at least we will be set up to hear an appeal and I will represent the this committee at the appeal it may transpire that the Commissioners will decide not to allow the appeal appeal to go forth but my my guess is that they probably will decide to let it go forth we'll know on the 27th so um in the course of conversation when uh I was talking to him I asked him uh um how do you feel uh about um executive sessions direct quote was I don't like them he doesn't like them because he's very concerned about the open meeting law so we talked a bit about this and his suggestion was and this actually has taken place before during my tenure on this board uh that that we have a um a work session um wherein we invite him um possibly in concert with a meeting to come before us and discuss some of the issues and questions that we have that we wanted to or want to possibly engage uh include in a an executive session and um so with that in mind uh I don't think there's that it's a bad idea um to have a a work session and to have him come and to have us uh formulate our questions and concerns to him and it'll be broadcast to the public and it'll be publicized and but is that not the whole point of an executive session that the members this is done universally it's not again frequently planning boards have executive sessions zoning boards have executive sessions they don't discuss any business in the form of applications they discuss topics of the committee so to have the lawyer come here or attorney come here and US Air our dirty laundry in public if we want to discuss things I'm not I am not for that well I'm only telling you he might not like them but is it illegal to do it I I don't know what would happen during this um this work piece session well I'm not that um but I personally I don't see any harm in having it um well I well then I won't be able to speak freely and I can't imagine anyone else on this committee will be able to speak freely about issues they may or may not have that's maybe the point that he's that he's concerned about if we should be we should feel we should feel free to speak executive session just this group or with Jesse it would be with what I'm sorry no this is members of our committee just having it has nothing to do it has nothing to do with I'm sorry I didn't mean to conf the leap I what an executive session appeal with this one thing segue into the other but they're not related at all session is when a committee steps away from the de and and and and is able to speak freely with themselves but not about the business of the committee I mean it could be I'm just making this up it could be uh I think it's entirely appropriate uh you know for Jim to chew gum when he's sitting it could be whatever or or you know Richard shouldn't have a glass of soda on the day it can be as silly as that or it could be it could be something more meaningful and I and and and a committee needs to be able to discuss those things we we we would what we would would not be able to discuss in an executive session is I disagreed with your vote on that fence that we wouldn't be able to do but we could discuss the business of how this committee interacts with one another and runs I would propose that we allow this work session to take place and that very question could be asked of him at the work session um I don't see any downside to getting his reaction to uh things that were that are of concern to us so I think we need to establish prior to whatever executive session work session meeting whatever you want to call I think we need to establish before we hold the session if it's going to be open or closed because it's going to it's going to impact if we announce it to the community it's going to impact it if we have it televised it's going to impact a lot of the plan his position his position is that it should be uh at the very least recorded um that um that minutes should be taken um which is fine but executive session minutes typically aren't shared with the public they're just for you know yeah I I have to I have to strongly disagree if anybody has we we all are entitled to contact him yes and get a direct read on what his feelings are I'm only reporting to the to this committee but just so you know when when we go when when committees go into executive session and I've been on other committees Lisa would not be there with us it would be us there would not even be secretary it is not recorded it is a conversation about the board the committee so if we have him here I will not ask any questions I will not say anything believe it or not and I will not propose what I want to discuss no we don't record it that's the whole idea of an executive session is that we as a committee are free to speak to each other about things it relates to how we interact and conduct our business you you feel I would say call Jim call Jim and talk to him and see why he feels well because he's wor you just explained it he's worried about the open meeting law but we not we're not discussing and we all can go out to dinner this week if we want all of us can do that recently it happened at Christmas what did we talk about I don't know what I'm watching on TV I didn't go to that we all did it we didn't announce it to the public we did it we went out to it was an executive session but this is so this is related to matters related to how this committee runs and goes and it and it the purpose of executive sessions and they're written into every zoning ordinance and everybody is the body that meets a planning board whatever it may be is that you can discuss things you don't do them very frequently but you can discuss issues or problems or whatever it is has this committee ever had an executive session not to my knowledge what can if you I just ask people up to speed he's going to he's launched an appeal this is UNR the got it's unrelated so the ex unrelated to Jess's no the two things are I'm sorry that I iated the two separ you were fine Bob they're separate so so Jess's appeal so what Bob's talking about is you may not have even been here uh for it after a particularly contentious meeting recently we talked actually John who mentioned the need for an executive session for us to effectively a family meeting it's a family meeting to you know it could be forgive the expression  to each other it could be to talk about but it's it's for matters of how the board runs Behavior those kinds of things how we want to approach doing things what's the purpose of this one that's being discussed the ex itive session for us to get together and discuss effectively how we interact conduct business what we want to do things we may like not like but but we can't discuss anything related to the actual work we do gotcha and that's the idea of an executive session is that you can you can you can so with your powers of persuasion why don't you call Jim and tell him what your thoughts are and see what his reaction is so you'll hear it directly from the horse's mouth rather than I know he's concerned I will I will call him I think that conern by the way any of us can call Jim Wilson he's available for us so um that's an option I think we should have an executive position I have issues I'd like to discuss well one of the things one of the things that we could consider doing in advance of either or both uh of these procedures I'll call it is maybe we should um and I don't know whether I would be uh the Clearing House for the for our ideas but maybe we should get some of our thoughts together as it as to exactly what it is that concerns us have an agenda yeah of course that would make sense so um would it be a good idea but it's not we were to all formulate our thoughts and whether it's me or another member of this committee we designate someone to set an agenda and then I could uh reach out to Jim Wilson and say here's what we would like to talk about and see how it comports with his thought about this work idea that he has which he's done before I've uh some years back he came before a sat there and and conducted one of these exercises with us and it was useful um I don't remember clearly everything that was everything that was discussed at the time I'm just surprised because this is a this is not I would not say it's a common occurrence but I would say it is a long established thing that committees and bodies and you know go into executive session at times and to discuss really Family Matters to use that term and and um things that don't belong aren't the Public's business um and and aren't in a violation so I will call him put some specificity to to this I agree in terms of an agenda I'm I was on I was on boards for I ran I managed cond mediums for 25 years and I went to monthly board meetings every month for 25 years with 12 boards and anytime anything sensitive that was not to be shared with the community we went into executive session and it was Private we closed the meeting went into executive session we did take minutes but they were not distributed to the rest of the people so I agree that it needs to be not a public meeting well let's let's do two things J we'll get Jim's opinion let's if you're willing Rick yeah well actually I would much rather have I think Cindy is better at it I'll call all right fine do do I have this contact I don't I give it to you thank you fine all right may I move on to two other things absolutely so the first thing I have and I've asked Lisa to give me the I mention to I'm wondering should we consider moving up the time this committee meets to 6:30 p.m. 6:30 it's hard to get dinner before 7 7:15 is pretty darn late I think we're the latest meeting committee on this in this town well maybe if we talked less no we're talking about things they are to talk about um but but no I think that it's awfully late especially when you have to get up at 5: in the morning but I think it's a late time to meet so it's once every two weeks um and then the other thing that I want to bring up unfortunately I hate to bring this up but some months ago Sheila and rpad at 500 Route 6A came in before us in violation of their application for the doors modillions on the roof front door other things that they had signed a paper saying they were going to do and prom and spoke of a difficulty with the contractor and the reason things weren't done because of that difficulty with the contractor and we spoke at length about how to detail the fake barn doors that they're going to put on the front of the building um there are trucks there every day again I drive by that twice a day five days a week um last week I noticed what seemed to be a junction box mounted in the front center of where the fake doors were going and within a few days and now installed and lit is an outdoor kind of think of that metal hooded kind of bottom a witch's hat type Railroad Station light where the bul was exposed on the bottom that has been installed in the center of the carriage house right where the doors go now um You Don't Put uh a light in the middle of a door whether it's fake or not it is clear that there is no intention to put this door up this fake door that they agreed to and promis this board they're going to do um I think at this point you know we need to send out a violation letter which we have not here to for done on this project which is just racked with problems but you know we spoke I looked in their eyes all of us did and quite frankly they're not doing it they have decided to go a different way um which is to ignore what they promised this board they done they do on every occasion they've been before as it seems now I know Sheila I've been to her restaurant many times I've spoken with arpad about this very issue when you called me to ask me and it is very upsetting to me that we are so willfully being I'm sorry I'm using the word lied to about what their intentions are it was a lie because now unless they had some guy come in and install a light there that they had no idea it was going to happen so we need a send of violation and then furthermore we need to we need to and I spoke about this at our last meeting it is pointless for us to have any do anything here if the only people that are going to follow what they are mandated to do are the people that would do it anyway when people are just flagrantly go against what what the ordinance Jesse copian being one of them who's now appealing and for some odd reason being allowed to be heard there's a precedent that's being set um no no need to worry about 10 days just appeal it go whenever you want um but uh um we need to start to impose fines we are empowered to do so in the law so we need to do so Jesse Hagopian is in non-compliance he was told to put it back he didn't apply for a thing we should start finding him if he has an appeal that's one thing but he violated the law that under which we rule so what are we going to do about it well I when you say we you mean this committee impose fines yes we are empowered that's not what the manual says that's not what the bulletin says the bulleon says is enforcement lies within the authority of the building but we are the one that yes correct technically they do it but we are the ones that say find them we are the ones that do it I just want to be clear that this is expressed according to what the ACT direct the building department to impose a fine well we need to do it when you I just wanted to I think it's important for the record that when you say we what you mean is we need to direct we can we can um advise how whatever word you verb you want to use the building department to right okay you can say that so so let us do that let us direct the building department you've had good dealings with Mark yeah very good I have a very good report and relationship with him so that's important so we we we need to do this or or you know this so for example in in 5006a before I was on this committee this this was approved they moved forward and did not do what was approved they'd radically changed in several elements what was approved then they came before us and we discussed it and they promised us they would fix it and now they've installed the light which was not approved in a location that goes against what they said they would do um they know we they know we're not going to force anything they know we're not so we should so they have been in non-compliance for how long now a year more certainly more than a year so we must direct the building official to find them this is done and I'm going to use an example these fine folks that were in here this wonderful young couple who bought 414 or 514 414 414 okay the people before them that had the horses how did they get them to get rid of the horses does anyone remember I don't remember but I know there was they sued them and they finded them that's the only way they got rid of the horses cuz they did everything else they wanted without going they changed their Windows they put up fences they painted their building they put up other fences they did anything they wanted to do when it came to the horses the town sued them so Board of Health or probably was the Board of Health it saying the Board of Health sued them that's the only thing that made them change it cuz it cost them money I agree I think it's not worth having rules if you don't have teeth and can I just can I add a segue com sorry um I'm not going to read all of this but I I hope you're that you will all familiarize yourself with yes what's in this bulletin we have because it's important while violations of the historic district act are usually minor in nature and few in Number the law provides the fullest opportunity for complete judicial redress against any violator violations should be prosecuted in the Local District Court well this is moving on to the next step be brought either by civil action or criminal complaint um enforcement the town building inspector is responsible for enforcing the historic district act uh and it goes on to say law further states that the building inspector of the effect of the affected Town shall have the power and duty to enforce the provisions of this law but any person suspected of a violation of the historic act should take steps to properly document the violation be prepared to testify as a witness so anybody anybody can blow the whistle on uh yes I I would love would you read the section that details how the power we have to impose a fine will you read that section the power that we have to violators of the District of the historic district court court jurisdiction and penalties B violators of the historic district act are guilty of a misdemeanor may be fined from a minimum of $100 to a maximum of $500 with each day constituting a separate violation penalty of contempt is available for any violation of a Judicial order issued by the Local District Court so then doesn't the next page say that it's the power in Duty no there's there's said power in duty of the building inspector to yes I just force it correct I just read that of the building so he's he's our police officer yes but he's not doing his duty well we haven't asked him to actually I've got to say Mr grills has been at every interaction I've had with him he has been incredibly responsive an absolute partner willing to help wanting to help um no one likes to be ordered to do things so we must assist him in in doing that and and and give him the tools he needs but he has been nothing but um [Music] um an ally in in our us performing our duties i' I'm very grateful for him yeah so as well as the motion pieces of paper that we all have and the formality does there not now need to be an addendum which may be one piece of paper or however which says that this committee is not satisfied and gives him the information yes pertinent to that violation you are correct as we see it so that comes in the form of a letter which we issued to Jessica goian um that got this thing started that I wrote um in conversation with Mark GRS I said how do you want us to approach this we we had spoken of it here but I I wrote the letter saying he was in violation and and it details the finds he's subject to um as of yet we haven't imposed them I wished to impose them um but we didn't do it I mean we uh but he for example is one we could impose a fine on him today because he's been notified as of now we have not done so with Sheila and our pad at 500 we have been very uh accommodating and understanding hoping that in the end it would all sort out however it is clear now that in fact so so we need so I will draft and I will speak with Mark a letter to them telling them that they are in violation of the approved DET detailing what it is I'll pass it by Bob it's fine for for approval of the bulleted items and I will it's going to take a little work cuz they're going to have to find out the meeting they were here where they said they would fix this door issue and even that was a concession on our part quite frankly because they never came before us but now they have wanly installed a light there which means they never intend to put doors there so we'll do that and then at that point I think at the next meeting um I think we would then vote on imposing a fine and it's and it's goes back to the date the first date of of when it's a daily fine um uh uh so they can appeal it was after a court uh decision that you could do a daily fine didn't you just read that PL that it said after I'll read it again decision uh well first of all well we have to take them to court then then we should do that let me read a couple of the pertinent passages again while the local building inspectors are specifically charged with the responsibility for enforcing the act any person who observes a violation May seek a criminal complaint against the Violator and then um violators of the historic district act are guilty of a misdemeanor may be fined from a minimum of $100 to a maximum of $500 with each day con uting a separate violation penalty of contempt is available for any violation of a Judicial order issued by the Local District following a court does say violate violations of the ACT are guilty of so when you take down your chimney without coming before us you have violated that doesn't have to be proven it's been done it's been done that's a fatal complete you've done it so in my to my mind now does it maybe get litigated perhaps it does but you it says you are violations of it are guilty of yes so does the building department step in and then if that fails does it go to court what I say yes yes I mean there's there's steps that have to be followed cor yes but let's get it started so I would suggest can I make a suggestion since we've never fined before I don't think we should leap into finding shill and rped 500 bucks a day for a year I think that would be a little extreme stop saying we we're not going to we aren't find the town building inspector whoever whoever does the finding my suggestion something to think about not that just something to think about what if the approach we take is okay we've been notified that there's a violation like with the chimney send him a violation letter and give them a reasonable period to cure the violation if not cured within that time frame depending on what it is we make a time frame that's reasonable you can't put up a new chimney in 10 days obviously that if it's not accomplished within that period then we will institute fines so give them a opportun to cure the violation and if they just thumb their noses at us then we say fine we have the we have the we'll have to also take in let us say he knocked the chimney down in December right he's obviously not going to erect masonry into say January and February it's really too cold especially with a with a a lime mortar so you'd have to that would have to be somewhat flexible but I agree you should have a time frame to do it there's not even a need for them to come before you have 60 days you have 90 days to do to correct this we have a time frame do we have a time frame in place no we said it 2030 I mean we keep talking about doing stuff but we don't question that's a question for Jim can I make and we should get going but one more one more point about the uh building inspector so there are a number of violations that I've been reporting to Lisa there's a house um across the street from um Warren R stalis I'm sorry I don't know the address that replaced all the windows didn't request didn't submit an application just did them but probably got a permit from the building department same with the house and I don't know the number I'm sorry you know the house on the corner of 6A In Summer Street they came to us about changing out their Windows the next they appealed and they won and they did so the next House West of them I don't know the number again they came in with the chainsaw on Thanksgiving Wednesday afternoon of Thanksgiving weekend cut out all the windows frames and everything with chainsaw put in new windows had a building permit so the building department is giving approval to these changes that have not been approved by that allegedly the car drove into and moved it off of its foundation right right right right but the point is that the building department and I don't know if that's who that is in the building department is granting building permits for I'm hopeful maybe I'm being there's a roof Star on Star eyed Optimist there's a whole new roof across from whereis 6A that is now asphalt shingles that was Cedar Shakes did not come before us I can't imagine they put a whole roof on without five that's justess yopan no no no this is a different one he did do that too so there's no robust process between the appropriateness there's not decision and the way that that's enacted or not correct that's what I'm hearing it's not a set of dominance no action has ever been taken right so if you want to go forward Richard we got to construct some dominoes say well I think we've we've maybe their baby steps but we've made some progress I think your work with Mark has been exemplary and has produced results and um I I applaud you Rick for establishing that relationship with him I think that's critical and it's one of the things that I used to talk about a lot better relationships with the building departments and I think we're we've taken great strides in that that's kind of you say great excuse me Cindy if if if you're privy to the building department sort of bypassing this committee and allowing things to happen why aren't we addressing that well I I'm I'm guessing I need to go back you're guessing that's no good I need to go but it's easy to figure out you just go into their into the database and see if there's a building permit issued in the case of that house that was lifted allegedly lifted off of its foundation um I have to find the section in here there there is an instance in which um the building inspector can uh preempt our Authority that's if um and that's if there is a uh a derel or where is this that I'm looking for but they deliberately this is Bob's act a car plowed into the house and pushed it off his foundation if there if there's a a hazardous condition ah they can take they can take the emergency measures yes exactly and it's in here if a tree falls through your roof you don't and you you can repair it car runs into your house and lifts it off of its foundation which of course using that to replace all your windows is another thing absolutely absolutely change the color of my house cuz a car the whole the whole thing drove insane how long ago was that that was what two years ago was it that it was it was yeah at least four years ago well anyway so so be longer than that it wasn't in my uh duration here well because they didn't come before us anyway they didn't come before so you're gonna you're going to call Jim Wilson and ask for clarification on this whole issue of session executive session and and if I could just can I know we want to go and I want to go too but I just want to mention something because I I've said this to Bob and I think it's an interesting thing and you know am I driving you nuts I'm sorry uh um the house on the corner of Summer and 6A that wanted to replace all their windows that we went and saw all of that I just want to I just want to relate this only because this I don't have a real point here other than to say it's interesting the things that we fight for and I as a preservation architect with 35 years experience I question these things myself and I just want to put this out there to the public that watch too that the idea of protecting and preserving original fabric is important and sometimes it's almost to the detriment of Aesthetics and the re what I'm going to use that house as an example because we as a is a kind a mediating effect agreed to allow them they came before us and asked if they could do the windows upstairs on the second floor with 2 over two very nice quality Anderson architect series windows and we approved that and um and again I drive by there often in the morning as the sun is rising hitting those windows and they've that's finished and the irony in it and don't think it's lost on me to those people who might listen to the things even I I speak to me that I say that they say why is he fighting for that there are times where I question it too because the reality is as I drive by every day they have the original Windows which I feel are vitally important and should be saved and if Bob's correct and they're original two over two windows to a very early house they really special windows and they have right now ugly storms on them but they're they've protected those windows but on top they don't have storms anymore because they have in insulated glass windows and when you drive by and you I'm going through puberty sorry my voice cracked there when you drive by and you look at that in the morning and the sun's hitting it you see a beautiful two over two window with the with the shadow line you know from the mun bar and the and and the meeting Rail and they actually look better they look better visually because they don't have an ugly storm on them but but again the point of being preservation is to preserve that those molecules of stuff that material um on on these important houses so that it's really they don't have a definitive point on it just to say it's not lost on me when I go by say those windows on the second floor look really sharp because they're true divided light they're not between the glass which as you know I detest and and they really have a presence that's very attractive um on the street even though they are new windows that's it so I do you have a point with that just just that it is uh it is even as a professional in it there is always you know conflict you do question yourselves and for people who think that we're all so clearheaded about what we want to do you know what's important what isn't and just thinking you know as a as a committee as we think of these things these decisions come you know based on accepted preservation practice not necessarily what might be the prettiest thing from the street okay that was my Point okay thank you very good all right um I move to adjourn second all in favor signify okay I I stay a little longer