[Music] [Music] welcome everyone this is a meeting with the board of Selectmen it is Friday April 19th 10:30 a.m. is the motion to call the meting to order move second all those in favor this meeting is being audio and video recorded please rise for the pledge of Alle pledge to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all the uh reason for this meeting is an asme grievance with wand hmer riew of matters Pres presented I will leave the option Miss HR for you to have it an open session or executive session and please say that you want it in Open session or executive session Open Session would be fine okay request has been made to have it an open session so if you want to go to the podium and discuss um your rationale on why you should be paid for a sick day on Matha Luther King Day on January 15 2024 versus the town decision not to pay you so um yes this is now costing everybody a lot more time than needed to be it could have been nipped in the butt right away had someone spoke to me or spoke to my supervisor regardless of what you all think but the policy states that if you're abusing your sick time you ought to be notified that you're using it abusing it and then if you're abusing it then you would have to be supplied at doctor's note I wasn't request or asked to supply a doctor's note 10 days after the point at that point I'm already better I don't need to go to the doctor had I known prior to I may have gone to the doctors and Supply to know if that was needed if the policy had changed I've been paid previously for a holiday pay being sick before or after as you know I've been here 23 plus years the contract States the same I've never been notified I've been abusing my time sick time using sick time oh to use my sick time so I've been asked to change the sick time to personal vacation I don't need to do that I was sick I was sick on the Wednesday if you notice the Thursday before the Friday I was sick in the morning I got asked to come in I came in Friday I was out all day I've lost pay trust me I don't need to be out i' I've lost pay in other jobs so now that the money was stolen from me out of my pay no longer in my account if you owed me money I you know I would want it back so want it back okay if the policy changes then I just need to be notified I mean I can't be told 10 days later to supply a doctor's not when I've never had to do that before [Music] oh you have inside the file that I was presented Miss hmer we have um a number of different discipline warnings to you some from Mr Kelly and some from previous Town administrators Mr the noble dayon all the way back to 2017 is that for SI time yes sick time calling in sick Brian s Noble October 24th 2017 on Tuesday October 24th you did not call in sick until 11:49 the lack of timely notice should be considered a is this because of a holiday what's that is that because of a holiday I don't know if that day fall falls on a holiday or not so the the article here is is what we're quoting here is article 7 is to be paid before or at to be paid a holiday pay I got paid my sick pay I didn't get paid my holiday pay so I think that's what we're hear about MH article 7 y that's what you keep quoting on the letter is addressed back to me and that's regarding holiday pay yep so article 7 says paid all an employee must work their last schedule working day before the last schedule Working Day and after a holiday in order to receive holiday pay unless vacation or personal time is requested and approved by their supervisor and the event an employee is unable to work the day before or after a holiday due to illness the and the employee feels the the employee is abusing their sickly benefits the employee may require the employee to present a physician's report to the employer prior to the employee being paid for the holiday right that's article seven of the Asen contract how do you determine if I'm fusing my sick time how do you determine it how do we determine it I believe I believe Mr Kelly determined it based on your track record of of sick time so you've been employed with the town for 24 years you should have approximately 3 300 you would have earned 345 days um to date over those years and you have N9 days left out of the 345 days left on the books basically 14 and 1 half six days out of 15 a year I believe that's what the town Mr Kelly is it days are you going by days or hours Days Seven full days very yeah that that do that has nothing to do with a holiday pay I I think I think it was construed as it has something to do with abuse of sick days right when you have nothing left on you on the books how far back does someone go if they've been there for 30 years you're going to go back to 30 years I believe that Scott has asked you for the past 3 years you're going back to 2017 that doesn't sound like 3 years and his request to you was 3 years requested to see the records y you're quoting records so after even if I did the math for three years right and I'm not the payroll clerk to keep track of all this stuff but even if I did the you have n days what did I say you have nine days left on the books even if I went back 3 years that would be 45 days and you have nine left right I don't understand where you're going with that that has that's has no bearing to the employer's opinion of abuse of sick Lea then everybody must be be abusing it I'm telling you everyone's abusing it but regard that gives us the right to ask for the doctors no 10 days after is do you think that's other people have provided it so you've asked them 10 days later and they excuse me so just for the reckon I know she was sick she was out I was in my I was in the office on a Wednesday and she was sick then they called and and I spoke with her and she said she was still sick she came in on that Thursday to cover for Joe and she was still sick so that's why she took the Friday off has nothing to do with what what happened in the past she didn't abuse that particular sick day that time that that that SI so but it's not comping with the letter of the contract as read the contract I'll give you the contract so you guys are looking at article 7 article 25 relates to sick Le okay and it says sick time abuse shall be addressed by Progressive disciplinary action can you prove to me I've been would sick leave I've abused it I haven't I asked for this y'all let us stated we need not give you a letter state in you're abusing it we're just going to tell you 10 days after you're sick by the way you need to know is that a reasonable time do you think yes 10 days after you're si yes okay how am I going to go say that you need Progressive discipline that's a separate article we need to address it refers to this on it's exactly the same one refers to the other that is the description of what abuse of sick time is we should be addressing if you need to if you need to address it don't say 10 days later and then steal $158 away from her when she's never abused sick time at all I've never been told that she's abused sick time never okay and an article specifically in the contract says that it's awful I mean it's just awful that we all have to deal with this and we've wasted so much time and so much money over all of this for $159 and it specifically says if you're abusing sick time you have to be progressively disciplined and this article says if in the opinion of the employer is sickly abused we can go forward with the next and do the analysis of the sick leave and I think it's a good I think it's a good suggestion from you that we do that and progress I think that it's a wonderful great idea but the simple fact is that she should have been paid if you need to do this after the fact you you do it after the fact you take the money away it's not fair to take $159 away from somebody and waste taxpayers money by spending all this time with you trying to figure out how to screw it it's just incredible can we just do this all right all the drama around wasting taxpayers dollars I'm reading about being harassed and all this stuff can we just stop with that rhetoric because it's it's really it's it's unproductive very much so so when we when we're having a convers ation here we're dealing with an issue it's very black and white we don't need the the drama about being being harassed and stealing taxpayers dollars and wasting time you know how much time gets wasted I can promise you this at Town Hall of people not at their desk not doing what they're supposed to be doing worrying about what the other person's doing so let's just let's level set that here let's just look at this black and white and not deal with all the drama thank you can I give you the copy of the policy for the sick leave cuz it right in there which which one are you saying because I'm reading the copy of the policy the real language I wrote right holiday or sick being paid for sick time prior to a holiday or after that's article s that's correct so article 25 explains sick sick time and article 27 is explaining why sick time would be abused and that's why you don't get paid a holiday but maybe the sick policy can I yeah that explains how they come up with SI if you want that's why that was put in there I've been here a long time as you know I know previous employees that have been written up for sick because they abused it which abused means they called out sick every day before a holiday or every day after that's not this case I mean I've been paid I have pay stubs I'll show you I mean honestly I'm looking at this the facts here I think the breakdown is Joe when she called in sick whether you were in or out she said wand you need to stay home take care of yourself if she was sick on Wednesday she was sick on Thursday you should have stayed home home right okay and I think that's that's the breakdown so Joe is the manager whether you have a day day off or not you the office is closed that was Thursday had nothing to do with Friday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday on I'm reading the facts I started feeling sick on Wednesday Joe witnessed me not feeling well Fact Two on Thursday I called Joe and said I was not feeling well he informed me he had a scheduled day off but could come cover the office until 10: I said I forgot and I got myself together and went into work not feeling well to have coverage in the office at least until Joanne arrived at 1 I stayed for the rest of the day then on Friday you took off what I'm saying is if you were feeling if you were sick on Wednesday you called your supervisor on Thursday that's on the supervisor say you know what Wanda you need to stay home get your rest it's more important that you get rest we don't infect anybody else here and we'll deal with that so can I ask you this um if he witnessed me sick he knows I'm sick why wasn't he asked if I was sick or was I faking it that's what this whole policy is about I don't know we're not accusing anybody of Faking anything Wanda okay at all so but it sounds to me like you're saying I wasn't sick no that would be a we're saying we're saying that there's a a direct article in the ask me contract that dictates paid holidays with sick days involving around before and after that's what this is I have proof that I was paid for do you want pay STS as well because I have them because if you're going back to 2017 I think you should have went back to the pay the payroll I clearly have been paid I I do I do have some written um language here and it's back on 2023 on the same day Martha Luther King Day you used vacation day yeah um prior to that holiday and then this time here we use SI time prior to the holiday the same vacation is cuz I want to use a long week you have two witnesses that yeah yeah I I I get I get I get that and that's all legit use inv vacation time or personal time before and after a holiday um I I I kind of go off what Dave is saying it just says on Thursday January 11th I called Joe and I was not feeling well he informed me he had a schedule day off but could come in to the office until 10:00 I I said I forgot and I'm got myself together and went it to work not feeling well to have coverage in the office at least Joanne arrived until 1 pm I stayed for the rest of the day so I read through your grievance facts and it's I just asked the question why would you say if you were sick if Joanne came in at 1:00 you should have used a half a day and you would have been paid for the holiday because I think it says in the contract something about two days prior to if you sick two days prior no you got the language right there it says if you're out 3 days or more you need a doctors know a little background on this is that there's been issues with sick time and tardiness so time and attendance we've dealt with multiple days talking to the union and the union has told us that we should strictly comply with the cont contract they don't that's from the union absolutely and and the contract here which from 2018 hasn't changed says in the event an employee is unable to work the day before or after a holiday due to illness and the employer feels that the employee is abusing their sickly benefits the employer may require the employ to present a physician's report prior to being paid for the holiday right the option was given produce a report or use other paid time off to for the day before so may require it shouldn't even be in there it should be is required is that what you're saying because if you're going by the contract it says maybe required so you're May requiring it 10 days after I was sick I did call a doctor they said the employee employer's option wait does it say that employer's option I don't see that employer may require if is not saying the employer is going to require doct does know no but employer can require that's what requires so you so okay that's fine I could have went to the on Tuesday had I been notified that I wasn't going to pay the holiday I wasn't notified 10 days after but isn't payroll by-weekly so how do we know what you're putting in for payroll until 10 days later or 14 the end of the payroll week was the sick day and the next starting of the new pay week was Monday a holiday and don't tell me no one's not watching my time card because they are they watch the punches they watch this they would have known I was out sick I that was the end of the payre the last pay period week was the 12th I was sick that day I got paid my sick pay I know Monday was the beginning of the new week so you're you're essentially asking us to deviate from what's in the Union contract no I'm showing you what the contract States right it says of abuse and then it says if you abuse are you asking us to not follow the letter of the law CU I think that's what we're doing right we're following the letter of the law but I've been paid before prior to I understand but that doesn't mean it was right then I'm just saying we had an instance before okay so how am I to know this I don't know it's your contract right I mean you looking at it differently I've been paid in the past for a holiday how would I know that I'm going to be required a note 10 days after how would I know this had I known this prior to change the policy now I don't care but had I know in your contract it's not it's not in my contract I I it's in contract it says we'll notify you you've been abusing it there you go that's common knowledge then it tells you if you're abusing it because you've been notified we're not paying you until you get a note so what we have here article 7 that you're telling me that's not valid it is valid okay so but it refers to another uh article 25 yeah Scott do you want any of these article stuff I got it I got it here you got 25 which states if you abuse the stick time will notify you so then this refers to you've been notified you're going to supply a note had I been notified I would have got a doctor's note I would have spent the $30 to go to the doctor's get a note to not lose $19 I mean I look at it does not say notification in article 7 it just says in the opinion of the employer but it it states sick leave it states sick abuse time which refers to article 25 the sick that's in the union cont that's the action that the employer can then take if the employer determines that they're sick then then write me a note that I'm abusing my sickly then I'll know that that's basically what you're saying I'm abusing it you're notifying me after the fact I'm not a mind reader I know my kids think I am but I'm not and all we asked for was either a doctor's note right or use PID time off but I and that's what we've been doing with everybody so you want me to use vacation time when I was sick I a doctor call the doctor I did call the doctor they're not going to give me a note I asked them on your behalf of giving a note one she didn't go to the doctor so how do you get a note for so I'm look here's what I'm finish so she's going to show up at the doctor say yeah was this is 10 days later Dave I I need a note because I was sick last week on last Thursday no doctor's going to give you a note for that that's that's they responded and said they're not going that's ridiculous that doesn't make any sense at all and number to is that she she didn't go to the doctor she went home and she rested and I know for a fact that she has another job that she didn't show up to on that day the day before or whatever cuz she was sick cuz I saw her and she was ill so it's the point of her being ill and I know what you you're trying to follow the policy but guess what she didn't get the the the do the doctor's note because she wasn't asked to get a doctor's note as a supervisor he didn't ask and I didn't ask as a an elected official so it doesn't make any sense I think she should be paid I really and and Tom we I don't think you're deviating from the contract in other words okay I'm looking at it pretty black and white well you at the other pot but I understand that I understand that piece of it Wanda I totally get I get the human as I get the human aspect of it okay we've got a contract right I I hear ad nauseum from unions all the time well it's not in the contract it's not in the contract I can't do this because it's not in the contract well I'm not doing that because it's not in the contract so I what I take is we've got to follow the contract we can't cherry pick well you know we're going to follow the contract for this one but we're not going to follow it for for that one so I I I believe we got to set a standard where we either follow the contract or we don't and when we we've been there's been a lot of gray area and I think that's why we have a culture in this town in this overall Town Hall complex of people coming and going as they want I'm not I'm just saying in general okay this is I I I remain silent on this whole issue and we've been dealing with stuff going on we're trying to get this place back in order okay and if this is part of it I apologize but we've got to start as an Administration following the letter of the law because it's brought it's done to us on the same side so you know that that's so I'm the example so I'm example it's not person don't take it personal well I've been paid before I'm just not mind I wouldn't know that I would meet had I been told Tuesday honest to God I would have went Tuesday to the doctors I would have left I would have left here and went right to the okay I can't 10 days lead him just that would be lying can we discuss this in executive session amongst us it's on Executive session we do have an executive session posted can I just say one more thing you can say whatever you want thank you so article 7 says abuse abusing their sick leave that that wording is stated in there from the SI article we feel you're abusing that you will be written up that's how someone knows so I look at that other article one to be honest with you the that article it's it me your union reps here so I I would ask him to comment on it but it says if a person is absent for a period of three of consecutive days or demonstrates a patent of frequent SI time use the employer has the right to require medical certificate Grant an additional SI time SI time abuse shall be addressed by Progressive disciplinary action but is that for some that's always three consecutive days and you're banging out three consecutive days no it says or demonstrates a patent of frequen sick use or a patent of sick use that's for General sick leave use right I know we the the union and this town agreed to a specific incident going around holidays and has a separate article for it under holiday not under sick so this abuse considered abuse One Day 2 Day 3 Day constant abuse is where the wording came in for the holiday abuse that's how it was put in there I've been here a long time now I this didn't change I know people who've been written up they called out every holiday Monday before or after a holiday so they can have a longer time they were written up you abusing it so now every single time you're out you need a doctor's know this is every time someone bends out sick before or after a holiday we have the right to ask for a doctor's note what what's a reasonable amount of time in your opinion what's a reasonable amount of time i' have to verify 10 days and see because it also depends on payroll I'd have to look at that so you think 10 days is open days to request some well I mean I guess we're assuming that you got the doctor's note I don't know I didn't go to the doctor I was so so you're assuming I got a doctor we're assuming that I didn't go the employees of the this Union understand know the contract know the rules the supervisors know the rules you know so I guess Joe learn right moving forward if one of your employees calls out sick the day before Friday before a holiday you now know Tom you now know make sure you get a doctor's note may be required so 10 years so it will be required is an excellent point to make in the next contract may be required 10 days later I've been here for over 10 years it's it's never been an issue we never we've had a we've had a great office environment it's it's never been an issue um and certainly I just unreasonable the notification of the need from the note wouldn't come from Mr Korea or the board it would uh because the contract is from the board of selectman through the Town Administrator to payroll so that's how that orderly mhm function goes I got I get I get that but from a practicality standpoint my main supervisor wouldn't know if I was abusing it you wouldn't need to need to know these everything's changing in this town it's crazy it's something I know is now different as far as the legality of the contract goes you work for under the board of selectman through the Town Administrator and you're assigned to the Board of Health right who supervised me who sees my day-to-day actions who knows me in and out but time and attendance goes through the treasure collector's office okay so you think 10 days is a reasonable amount of time I'm going to I'm going to give that to my daugh see if they like that CU it's it's unreasonable is what it is one day maybe two I think I got to went to the doctors maybe in two days and let them know that I was out sick for 4 days maybe they would have gave me no I don't know $30 would have cost me but instead it's cos me you know more in everybody's time when this don't worry about the time you're reading yeah but you're reading what you think it comes down to but the sick leave it states sick you refer to sick you you read something in something you go back to something else attorneys change pages and look at this and then go to this and go to this it refers to it it refers to sick abuse so you go to the sick so Mr chairman we're essentially taking Wanda's testimony I guess right and then based on that we can deliberate and then we we can go into executive session cuz it's on Executive session and come back or just we will come back to open session M do you want any do you want paper so you can see it no I this was put in here for the abuse you would know you were there all right the board's going to go into executive session under General Law chapter 38 subsection 21 A3 to discuss strategy would respect the litigation ask me grievance one name if an open meeting may have detrimental effect on the LI litigating position of the public body and the chair so declares the board will return to public session at the conclusion of executive session is there a motion second we are back to reconvene from the board's executive session is the motion to reconvene Open session so move second all those in favor one the board has heard your concerns regarding sick time we thank you for your time um the board is not reconsidering this the decision previously made okay thank you is there a motion to adjourn this meeting so move second all those in favor [Music] [Music] [Music]