is thank you it is March 26 2024 this is a regular meeting of the CRC Community Resources committee and it is 6:31 I'm going to go around and see if everyone can hear us and be heard uh I'll start with councelor hanaki present Jennifer T present d'angeles present H roone is present and she can hear herself and everyone else and I have Dave Zac our host Christine bastrup director of planning and Stephanie Chalo director of sustainability and here is our last member Rea can you hear us yes I can excellent good good so um we are going to go to uh there are no public hearings tonight we are going to go to public comment and then we will get into our agenda with Christine and Stephanie let's see if there are folks in the audience and I am not here's my list okay okay so we'll open this up for public comment you are you have the opportunity to speak for three minutes and oops I forgot to hold on I forgot to do the uh pursuant to chapter 20 the acts of 2021 extended by chapter 22 and 107 the acts of 2022 and extended by chapter 2 of the acts of 2023 this meeting will be conducted via remote means members of the public who wish to access the members the meeting May do so via Zoom or by telephone no per no in-person attendance of members of the public is possible but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time via technological means as we go to public comment uh public comments are strictly on matters within the jurisdiction of the CRC and folks are welcome to express their views for up to 3 minutes um we will not be able to engage in any dialogue or comment on matters raised during public comment are there folks who would like to speak please raise your hand if you would I see 16 participants in the audience I do not see any raised hands yet I think there's eight in the audience and eight of us you're right together but eight audience or eight in the audience I see no I'm not seeing any hands not see any hands either thank you uh we are going to proceed then with our action items and we have a quick topic of just an update for CRC members on the zba if Jennifer you want to do that we will then move on to the solar bylaw okay um we have uh seven interviewees that have confirmed we had eight calfs and one of the uh applicants um is uh indicated that uh they are pursuing um they're applying to other committees so with Drew from zba so we have seven candidates that will be interviewing a week from today on April 2nd at 6:30 p.m. um unfortunately we could just not find a date when the seven candidates and the five of us could could be there on the same time on the same date so uh Mandy very graciously um agreed that she will listen to the so next week we will do the interviews but we will not deliberate and we will not vote and councelor hanii said that she would listen do we have an upate time out actually Jennifer I'm sorry I got an email from from oh there's an update yeah there is my my conflict as of today I got notified is getting moved so I can actually make next Tuesday's meeting that's a miracle oh so we do have 12 people make it at the be at the same place at the same time okay that's great because I hadn't informed the candidates yet that we would not be deliberating next week so that would be great although so we'll probably need the full 6:30 to 8:30 if you could make that time available great we will have the interviews we will deliberate and we'll vote as of now that's great thank you that is good news actually get it all in one evening while while our Recollections are fresh yeah okay I would like to introduce again Christine brep director of planning and Stephanie chorella director of sustainability who very nicely offered to um give us an overview of the process that they have worked through with the solar bow working group to put together the draft solar bylaw that we've received and I want to turn it over to the two of them to give us the information that they'd like to share thank you so much Pam I'm going to start and I will give a background of the process what led us um to this process and then Chris will take over and actually talk more about the actual um development process of the bylaw so um there was a there was a project that was proposed on shutesbury road which was kind of an unprecedented solar project uh in terms of scale and it proposed 50 acres of clearing and at that time there was a um a movement to impose a solar moratorium on Solar Development and that motion had uh failed Was Defeated it didn't pass so there was concern regarding um forest and other land use U impacts that prompted some investigation into development of an actual solar bylaw and there were many entities that were creating giraffes kind of simultaneously so several different folks were working on drafts so staff recommended that there be a more unified process with various groups being represented so that it would be um those groups that had an interest in Solar Development could be represented and so uh that prompted the town manager to establish a working group a solar bylaw working group and worked with um with me specifically um to develop the charge and the charge was then shared with the planning director Chris brep who also commented and added and amended the charge um so I'm going to very quickly read the charge which isn't very long I'm not reading the entire thing just kind of the the Crux of the charge um the charge of the solar bylaw working group is to develop a solar zoning bylaw and establish a clear process and guidelines to support the permitting sighting and construction of solar projects including battery storage in a way that protects the health safety and Welfare of community members the environment and natural resources to develop the solar zoning bylaw the solar bylaw working group will engage the community to ascertain Community Values identify criteria and standards to be used in reviewing and permitting proposed um proposed solar installations including battery storage and identify and prioritize locations for possible Solar Development including large scale ground Mount rooftop and parking lot canopies the solar bylaw working group that convened consisted of seven members uh representing the planning board energy and climate action committee Conservation Commission water supply protection committee and three unaffiliated community members that had relevant knowledge Andor expertise the solar bylaw working group met from June 22nd until November 23rd originally their charge was to uh disassemble by May 31st of 23 but uh they required extensions and were granted extensions to continue the work the Town Enga engaged um gz envir Geo environmental Inc to conduct a CommunityWide solar assessment various Outreach efforts included dissemination of a survey both online and in person Outreach sessions were held at the Jones library with interpreters child care and snacks in the survey of community members yielded over roughly 500 responses um and we want to acknowledge that while this was a healthy response rate it did lack diversity um in terms of the respondents the reports that were provided uh as required by the charge were the time townwide solar assessment report and as well as a mapping tool it's an interactive mapping tool that was developed that shows the feasible location for Solar Development in town doesn't say EX actly where it can go it just shows the feasibility of Solar Development both these tools can be accessed on the town's sustainability dashboard under reports and then also the third and final requirement of the charge was to develop the draft solar bylaw and with that which came out in December 23 I will turn that over to Christine brrip and she can continue with the process hello everyone I'm Chris breast planning director and I'd like to talk to you about how the solar byw was drafted um the solar byw working group met um week bi-weekly for about 18 months um and we began by reviewing solar bylaws that were um developed by mass do which is Department of energy resources by the Cape Cod Commission and by the pineer valley Planning Commission we also reviewed about 12 to 14 solar bylaws from other cities and towns to get a sense of what other communities were regulating and how they were organizing their bylaws we were also mindful of the Massachusetts general laws chapter 48 Section 3 which states that no zoning ordinance or bylaw shall prohibit or unreasonably regulate the installation of solar energy systems or the building of structures that facilitate the collection of solar energy except where necessary to protect the public health safety or Ware this section of the Mass general laws um is similar to the protections given to um religious and educational institutions um so one of the first things that our group dra did was to draft a list of topics that we thought should be contained in the Solar bylaw um in general we focused on large scale ground mounted solar installations as opposed to smaller ground mounted installations or or solar on rooftops or on parking lot canopies so we did not focus on those the large scale ground mounted installations are considered to be no less than one acre and to have a rated name plate capacity of 250 kilowatt DC or more during our um drafting we consulted an attorney at KP law which is the town's legal council to determine the types of things that a solar bylaw can regulate and the things that we should refrain from regulating and the attorney was Guided by recent case law among other topics the solar bio working group spent a lot of time thinking about and discussing two relatively controversial topics the first one was how to regulate large-scale solar installations proposed on farmland and the second was how to regulate largescale solar installations in forested areas we consulted experts on the topics of Agriculture Agra voltaics forestry and water quality and we drafted the bylaw section by section and reviewed sections in an iterative process wherein we reviewed a new section at a meeting and then went back and confirmed the review of a previous section we heard comments from many members of the public um among these were Scott cashen an expert on the impact of solar installations on the environment he had recently moved moved to ammer from California and he had worked on a lot of large scale solar projects out in California we also heard a lot from the residents of shutesbury Road who did um a fair amount of research themselves and they sent us the research that they found um they are in the neighborhood that Stephanie mentioned earlier where there is a large scale solar installation that is proposed and that is still being considered by the zoning Board of Appeals and also the Conservation Commission um in addition to these people we heard comments from a resident of South ammer Steve roof who's a professor at Hampshire college and he helps to manage the solar installation at Hampshire college and he's a member of the energy and climate action committee so we heard from a wide range of uh individuals um a lot of the comments that we heard and received were incorporated into the draft bylaw the draft that we presented to Town Council and that you're beginning to work on was really developed by the solar byw working group and the experts that they consulted but it was not reviewed by The Building Commissioner the wetlands administrator who also advises the Conservation Commission the fire department the sustainability director even though um Stephanie was part of all of our meetings she didn't really um you know there wasn't an opportunity for her to offer comments on this bot so we think that we need to get comments from Stephanie and also um the town attorney from KP law so KP law provided advice and answers to specific questions during our process but they haven't had an opportunity to review the entire bylaw and make recommendations um so we recommend that review of the draft and comments by all of these entities as well as by the planning board the energy and climate action committee and KP law be incorporated along the way so that when we bring the byw back to Town Council it has the benefit of the review and comments from all of these entities and we look forward to working with you on this important project thank you we look forward to working with you on this important project appreciate your uh your expertise in it uh having worked on it for 18 months or so um will be really beneficial um does anyone in on the committee have specific questions before we talk about perhaps um rolling this out and our strategy for accomplishing it I have a question oh Mandy go ahead I I guess I don't have a question per se I have a lot of concerns um as it relates to and this I hope the council will talk about more tomorrow's um retreat but my concerns are based on how much time not just reviewing this but frankly rewriting a lot of it might take given all of the recent uh attorney general's Municipal law unit opinions that have come out um and the need for what I see a KP law extensive review um in reading this it's very vague I'm not sure if I was a zba member how I would go about making a determination on it I think there's things that conflict in it so I think it needs a whole lot of work um and I'm concerned about the amount of time that will take and whether the council in particular and this is where it goes to tomorrow's conversation and may go to tomorrow's conversation where the department should be spending or where we want the department to be spending its time given that I know this is listed as one of the goals in the manager's goals but so is a lot of Zoning for housing and stuff like that so I guess I'm I guess one of the questions I have is um how much time does the department think it will take to get this bylaw into anything that could be reasonably enforced because like I said I'm I'm not sure it there's I think that I I don't know how I would actually make a determination if a project was proposed under this bylaw as to whether it complies with the bylaw or not and so how long does it think how much how much work does the department believe is needed on this B law before we could even bring it to hearing Chris bre so by the department I assume you're meaning the conservation and Development Department yeah um so I guess I would like to say that we already have a good process for reviewing solar installations um we've reviewed about five of them and I think four of them have been built and there's still one under construction um so I feel like the zoning board of appeals you know does a pretty good job with this right now um they have said through their chairperson Steve judge that they would like to have some guidance and that's what this um bylaw could offer them um but they have pretty stringent submittal requirements and they have a really good set of rules and regulations and they work alongside the Conservation Commission and in fact on this certain project that is still before both groups they're you know kind of going in tandem um working on this project so I think that's a roundabout way of saying I feel like we're sort of okay as we are um and that this bylaw is going to add uh value I think in certain places where things might not be as clear but um the zoning word of appeals um you know does many of the things that are talked about in the bylaw um and puts conditions on installations that reflect a lot of this material so I don't I don't personally think I mean I think that the B is too long it's got too much in it too many requirements for submitt that are all already dupli duplicated in the uh zoning board of appeals and planning board rules and regulations so some of that could be cut out um I think it certainly could be shortened and made more succinct um but I think in the end it's going to be useful how long will it take um gee we thought it was going to take I don't know Stephanie and I thought it was going to take uh nine months to a year to get um the solar bottle work working group on the same page um so it took 18 months so I really can't predict how long it's going to take and it sort of depends on the differences of opinion that people have and that was one of the things that kind of drove the discussion with the solar bio working group there were some people who felt very protective of the environment and really you know wanted to be very limiting on where solar installations could go there were other people who felt very clearly that we need more solar installations we we can't you know worry too much about where they're going to go and we just need to promote them so there was constant um tension and discussion among those groups and I think that kind of prolonged the discussion so I think if this group um reflects that type of tension it could take a long time if this group is more um Unified in its goals or its concerns it probably won't take so long so I guess that's kind of a roundabout way of saying it depends thank you Stephanie chello thank you um I would also add that one of the things that prolonged our process was also the desire to have expert testimony uh around certain aspects of the development of the bylaw and so that that added quite a bit of time um and I will say I know that's come up I I do want to mention that those are recorded those sessions are recorded and you do have a summary document that was submitted to the town manager from the chair Chris brep and myself that actually has the names and the dates of when they provided expert testimony and so you could any of the members could refer to that if if you so desired in this process um rather than having to call people back in I think there's a lot of information provided there that could save time um also I want to ALS uh reiterate something that Chris said in terms of the length of this document it reads more like regulations rather than a bylaw and I think that's you know something that needs to be addressed I and it might be a sort of lack of understanding the language of bylaws but um I think it could be thinned you know to be more sort of General in referencing rather than very very specific as it is in several places um so and I think some of that came from recommendations from outside um the group as well and and those probably could be edited in quite extensively thank you Dave you have your hand up too yeah thanks Pam um echoing everything that Christine and and Stephanie said I just wanted to add something to the response um Mandy I think think I think you bring up some very important points you know what how much staff time is this going to take how much time does the CRC and the council want to spend on this um I just wanted to reference um there was mention of tomorrow night tomorrow night for those folks who don't know in the audience there is a council Retreat talking about the town managers goals and one of the goals has to do many of the goals have to do with sustainability and solar bylaw is referenced in those goals so Paul and I have had a couple of conversations about this clearly um you know Christine mentioned the confidence we have in our current process with the zba with the concom but at the same time you know many many people spent 18 months working on this um I think Christine and and Stephanie and conversations we've had clearly pointed out to me that they know when this was presented to the council it needed a lot more work and and I liked what Stephanie just said that it it reads a little more like regulation than bylaw so I think it's a good conversation to have with the full Council what does what what level of priority does the full Council put on this work and then Paul can also through staff the three of us really meet the council at some point and say okay what level of priority do we put on this clearly it is many many months of work ahead of us if we want to perfect this this bylaw so uh if we're going to do it we need to roll up our sleeves and and uh do it but there are many other priorities as as um councelor hanaki pointed out thank you thank you P I wanted to address a different issue so if Jennifer is still talking about um time and things like that I'd rather have you go first yeah I just wanted to ask I mean would it change how we do our work if we were to separate the bylaw from regulations I mean a bit like we did with the nuisance I not the nuisance the rental property bylaw so that's just a question I mean does could this document be separated out I me could we have a bylaw and then pull out what would be regulations does that make sense or is that a question for me and any one of you who yeah anyone I think that um this the planning board rules and regulations and the zoning BYO rules and regulations already have a lot of um requirements in them for submittals and different things and so some of that could be put in regulations what that would mean is that um the planning board and the zoning board of appeals would have to hold their own public hearings to revise their regulations but they could certainly do that so that that is certainly a way of um making this bylaw less lengthy okay thank you I was gonna can I follow up on that so was there discussion within the working group of creating regulations at all there was not no um I think we were so caught up with the topics that I mentioned the farmland and Forest protection that you know that was the really the focus of most of what they talked about and so you know I feel like um well I I'll stop there yeah Pat do go go ahead I I have a couple questions but they have to do with the content okay well yeah this one I I'm you say that the emphasis was on large uh scale ground mounted solar installations as the groups worked on this and from what I understand there was also um uh un disagreements around Forest protection and some of the um criticisms was since we cut land down we cut forests down to build housing and things like that uh why can't we cut down forests for solar and so and I I from looking at the decarbonization road map and things like that which talks about protecting the natural uh working land um and and possible Chris changes in zoning around uh how building housing and stuffing uh building more densely um Redevelopment of already cleared land and say I'm curious uh about why there isn't real work around the forests uh and and finding some kind of balance between the need for ground mounted solar and the need to protect forests which according to the carbonization road mapap and almost everything we've looked at is is critical to our environment so um I'd love it if I could get some understanding about why um that's been overlooked in many ways I I don't think it was really overlooked it was we actually came up with language that would have required mitigation so if you cut you know 10 acres of forest then you have to mitigate by preserving x amount of forest somewhere else either on the same site or on land owned by the um owner or you know in another town that's adjacent and that um idea was discussed for a long time it was sort of a slightly toned down version of what shutesbury and pelum had they had a 4 to1 mitigation I think we ended up with a two to1 mitigation but in the end there was a vote taken among the members of the solar botle working group and they decided that they didn't want to do that they thought it was too limiting for um for solar projects and they also um use the argument that you just referred to Pat which is that you know we cut trees to build houses um how you know how can we say we can't cut trees to build solar so it was a vote that was taken by the solar byw working group you all are working on this bylaw if that's something you want to put back into it you can do that so you know you're creating the bylaw that's actually going to go to Town Council so it kind of up to you to what you want to put in this draft kind of gives you a framework for things that you might want to have in it um but you don't have to stick exactly to the draft thank you I I also had a couple just a couple questions um you mentioned the the gz someone mentioned the GZA survey and the 500 responses I and I wonder if you can point us to where that is actually available to look at um and then the second item that someone mentioned was the interactive mapping tool which I haven't bumped into yet um which would be oh oh you said it's under the sustainability website under report the sustainability dashboard so both those items are included in the dashboard uh I believe the GZA solar assessment is under reports um and I think the mapping tool may be there as well um if you scroll it's basically just a list of reports with links and if you scroll down I believe the mapping tool is there um it may be under renewable energy but I'm pretty sure that it's under the reports we tried to keep that all in one place okay that included the the respon from the public survey that was done as well the solar assessment report includes the results of the survey responses that's basically what the report is is an assessment of the well a summary of the assessment that was disseminated throughout the community Christine yeah I just like to make an observation and the observation is that and I and I don't think we should should talk about you know one particular project um because that project is in a public hearing but I wanted to make the observation that people are not chomping at the bit or breaking down our doors to come in and build large scale solar installations in ammer the one that we have right now was first proposed in I think 2021 and here it is 2024 and it's still going through its process um so this process the process of reviewing these things is very labor intensive and lengthy um that may be a reason why people aren't you know flocking to ammer to do these things um they seem to be flocking to Hadley and other places that have more open land um so I just wanted to note that I don't feel like we're under siege um so we shouldn't feel like we're under siege about this topic and I forget the other thing I was going to say but just you know consider that thank you yeah a lot uh Jennifer yeah so I guess picking up what um Chris just said and in terms of the amount of time we as a committee or maybe staff when we're going to be discussing priorities tomorrow so we do have to complete this bylaw correct I mean so so how do we I mean we have to and it's GNA so I I guess you know we can talk about how we want to organize it and I know Pam's given it a lot of thought whether it's going through the bylaw section by section or it's doing it topically but we we do have to get bring this bylaw back to the council and then I guess they'll refer it to the planning board and the Conservation Commission then it'll come back to the council but it it's here and we have to right we we don't we can't say well it's going to take up too much time so we can't do it this year Andy I would say that's certainly something we should discuss tomorrow in terms of what priorities are um I I'm not sure my answer to Jennifer's question would be yes we have to do it um given that the zba seems to be reviewing these projects pretty well right now um but I I wanted to ask a couple other which is why I said we might have a lot of this discussion tomorrow about where does the council want the manager to focus the council's staff times on Council priorities which ones are higher priority than others right especially since so many of them fall to our planning department um did my question for uh Christine and Stephanie did the baa the did the working group look at and review other bylaws from the state um in particular and I have not actually looked at Douglas's bylaw but in reading about 20 Municipal law unit decisions about bylaws it was one of the bylaws that was proposed in full and adopted in full at a town meeting that was a um that the Attorney General said except for one small issue in the bylaw it could not it approved the whole thing with some caution that that caution was cautionary basically for every single Municipal law unit decision out there in the last two years um of if this bylaw ends up um resulting in um you know what did they they tend to use um if the bylaw Provisions are used to deny solar projects or are otherwise applied in ways that make it impractical or uneconomical to build solar energy systems and related structures such as structures that facilitate the collection of solar energy such application would run a serious risk of violating 40a Section 3 um but that the Douglas is on its face and that's all the AG's office was looking at found that it appeared to promote the use of solar energy system so I guess one of my questions is did the solar bylaw working group look at other towns bylaws and H what of that language was incorporated into what we're looking at now or did we were we just drafting new language completely and also did the solar bylaw working group actually look at the municipal law unit decisions that are published that came I know some of them came out especially shsb and pelum after we had the bylaw in hand um but there were a whole lot that were out before that so were those looked at and were was all of that concern from the AG considered or anything that they the AG sort of pass muster on put into what we're looking at now beam so we um we as staff looked at many bylaws um that have been you know accepted um amest is a city so it does not have to present its bylaws to the AG's office and if it were challenged it would be more likely to be challenged in the court um I think we have a pretty good idea of what can and can't be regulated um we did speak with attorney Jonathan Murray twice during our process and and we got advice from him about you know what we could and couldn't put in and he kind of steered us away from the idea of um having this um very large mitigation that I've talked about earlier where you know there was a 4 to one mitigation if you cut Forest so he steered us away from that and I think that you know many members of the group heard what he had to say um so I think we were pretty careful and I I do not see anything in our bylaw that would prevent um solar installations from being approved but again it hasn't been reviewed by KP law in its entirety and it was never approv it was not reviewed by KP law because it wasn't really finished until the end of October or maybe it was November 9th of 2023 um so yes I I understand the concerns that you have Mandy um I don't see anything in our bylaw that would really you know keep it from being um a reasonable bylaw Pat you got your hand up thank you and like Jennifer I feel very strongly that this needs to be worked on um and be brought before the council uh particularly because we're being told oh well we have good guidelines the zba is doing a good job and I remember back just a year or so ago when the zba was cying for uh a solar bylaw um and felt that they did not have all the uh information that they needed and and I want to give an example of a reason why we need to do this work not just for the zba but for the town's health and safety Hickory Ridge we know there is a solar installation going in there and it consistently in the last few years have has been flooding dramatically making access almost impossible and there's talk about battery storage being there there and and battery storage comes with complications which can and there can be fires and things like that caused by um batteries just sort of spontaneously igniting often in connection to water uh infiltrating the battery storage system so if we if we have such wonderful guidelines how come we have a site that is consistently flooding and and poses I think a real danger to the community so I feel very strongly that we need to be working on this bylaw hey you've got your hand up you might want to respond to the to to the Hickory Ridge comment um I may I may not you know Pat put that out there I'm happy to have it just be out there I think she raised some important points um I was going to speak more to and and she referenced something that I think is important for the CRC and everyone to recognize too is that the you know battery storage definitely does add a level of complexity to all of these projects so our early projects in town um were exclusively just solar panels and so what we're seeing now um I think we've seen a 100% solar battery storage facility permitted out on Sunderland Road and I think the boards and committees did a very nice job with that um and then what we're also seeing so what we're told by the industry is we'll we probably won't see any projects that are simply solar panels they'll all come with battery storage and that has many benefits for us as consumers of electricity what we're also seeing is some of those projects come back through the process and saying we'd like to add battery storage so I just want to put it put it out there that you know a good point was raised that you know the kinds of projects we're seeing are more complex than they were a year ago three years ago five years ago or more I did also want to just put out and and I did meet with the um solar bylaw working group to talk a little bit about Forest protection and and farmland protection and we'll get into this later but I did want to just kind of put out there for consumption that it is interesting to think you know there's often comments some of them positive some of them negative about how much land amorist has protected permanently protected you know through through various means but in fact you know if we look at we have thousands of Acres of protected conservation land thousands of Acres of protected Farmland many of which are forested and then we have hundreds of Acres of water supply protection land all of those acres are growing trees and we do not no cutting but virtually no Forest Management on the town lands we are letting trees grow so we'll get more into that as as we go but I just wanted to it's important to think about that as we think about carbon sequestration what is the town doing to sequester Carbon on our public land we're doing a lot we're letting trees grow we're we're really not doing much active uh Forest land uh uh or excuse me uh Forest cutting uh harvesting so we'll get more into that later but I do think some of the issues around complexity of B battery storage you know need to be considered as we as we as the council thinks about what level of priority this is thank you that uh I had a I had a question wondering if um there was discussion at least within the working group of separating out the the battery storage as a by I've heard this mentioned a couple of times or regulations and or a separate bylaw was there much discussion about that and and I I realized that within what was provided us as a draft there's very little there's very little on battery storage um what was the conversation within the working group on that Chris yes at first um we thought we would incorporate battery storage into our solar bylaw and we did to some degree but later on it became clear to me that we probably really needed a separate battery storage bylaw so I did draft one but the solar Bilo working group was not um in business long enough to review the battery storage bylaw but if you would like to have that I can send it to um Pam and she can distribute it to you if you're interested in that I think that would I think that would affect how we craft the rest of it if we have a separate bylaw for battery storage there are some references to battery storage in the bylaw that's been drafted but it's not as full as it would have been if if we had had this separate bylaw so looking forward um um I'm hearing that there might be some concern that this not be particularly a priority for both CRC and for Town staff to spend a lot of time and energy on um but in fact we we do have it on our plate um there was a moratorium of X number of hundreds of people who signed saying that we we either needed a moratorium or a or a bylaw to to sort of set the guidelines and and and and side side guards or whatever you call them um for am going forward um as we come around in the discussion and we decide that it is a priority that it is something that we want to work for I would like to have in mind um how we might approach organizing it and I think in the in the email that I sent to Christine I had I had simply taken each of the sections that was listed in the draft bylaw and from my own perspective and from from convers ations had identified the different departments Andor um committees and boards that might have had either experience with or um some information on the different topics like the submittal requirements that was list um mentioned as being fairly redundant with what zba and and Andor planning board already adhere to um and and um or design standards again what what is already on the books and what can be paired off um or kept or enhanced um there were some pretty pretty important sections in my in my mind which is uh section 1711 protection of drinking water supplies I know a lot of the folks that are on the northeast side of the town it's it's a small percentage of the population here but they they are on Town well or they're on private Wells and um and do backup against areas that are potentially available for um for solar production and what are the what are the setbacks what are the the drinking standards and how do we how do we manage for that so there there are number of groups that that could stand some staff input uh um and there are also some um topics that certainly require and and ought to have input from different committees in town with a vested interest um Chris do you uh we Chris Christine and I uh did talk through what a logical time frame might be if we pursue that route and I think it's worth talking about uh we may have to adjust things if if um somehow the council itself doesn't feel that it's a high priority um but we had we had looked at reaching out to the boards and committees in town via their staff Liaisons and oh Stephanie was there of course and Jennifer was also there and David was also there just to talk through the impacts staff uh that we that we looked at reaching out to the different committees different boards and asking for feedback uh within a a couple of months toward the end of May to try to get feedback from these different entities um at that point the the CRC would have a tremendous amount of information to to to work through it would have not only the draft bylaw that we have today it would also have and has already all of the resources that have been provided us um for reading for you know uh consideration um and we would then have input from the staff and and committees to um complete that that input we could really max out on input is what I'm trying to say uh Mandy I think we need to know the outcome or an idea of tomorrow's discussion potentially of priorities um but if that outcome keeps solar at a higher priority than the department drafting housing measures or any other measures that might take Department time or if that outcome of that discussion results in the department being able to put both on the burner as it were and work on both or three or four things at a time I I just don't know what the Department's capacity is um I while I don't object to the outline that was just outlined or the plan that was just outlined we just heard both Christine and Stephanie say they think this could be shorter they think this is much more written as regulations and not a bylaw um and I would rather see us get a new draft of something that is closer to a bylaw before we start farming out this draft or a draft to other committees for comment um I I don't have a desire to utilize committee time on something that might look hugely different when we get rid of all of the regulations that are in a bylaw or when when we potentially end up with a draft that looks more and is more like a bylaw than it is now um I'd like to see a draft um this was extremely hard to read and part of why it was hard to read and understand is because there are certain parts of it where the requirements are listed like in four different locations and I'm not sure which ones apply um and I'd like to see it Consolidated you know there are setback requirements in special requirements for ecosystem protection under Forest lands there are setback requirements under water supply protection there are setback requirements under the dimensional regulation section there are setback requirements in like five different on on so many different pages of this there are vegetation requirements on so many different pages that I don't know whether they're duplicative whether one goes over the other and I would love to see a bylaw before we really start talking and getting into the weeds of a bylaw if we are going to get into the weeds where we're not paging back and forth amongst 21 pages to find all of the different say setback requirements where all of the setbacks are in the same section um you know where all of the vegetation requirements are in the same section where all of the application requirements if we're going to keep them in a bylaw and not put them in regulations or if it's recommended to be in a bylaw although I heard Christine say that that's more of something that the planning board or zba would put in regulations if they're going to stay here where all of them are in the same section because right now they're not where all of the reporting requirements are in the same section along with what they need to include because there were like seven different reporting requirements throughout this bylaw on seven different things but on seven different pages in seven different sections that I couldn't even follow it of to did you have to report the same thing in three different reports on a yearly basis or a B anually yeah like there's just a lot there that I think is duplicative and hard to manage that i' I'd prefer before we start asking for feedback from all of these different entities which is important if we're going to go forward with this that we have something that looks like or is closer to something that could reasonably have feedback um in an meaningful manner versus you know I I've got a marked up copy that's like all about well didn't you just discuss this three pages before which one actually applies and how do they interact with each other i' I'd rather and and I'm not sure how we could say discuss dimensional setbacks ourselves or that dep that that se within one section when they're in six different sections for example although I'm slightly exaggerating as the where they are but like how how do we even have that discussion when they are amongst seven you know three or four different parts of it so I'd like to see something much more Consolidated before we really start getting into the weeds thank you Jennifer uh yeah I'm just kind of thinking out loud but I mean would it and I don't know if we can have a subcommittee but I mean to look I mean would it make sense and I guess I'm really asking staff this to try and take this and pull out what would be the regulations like it sounds like maybe we have if we're going to if this might work have a solar bylaw have regulations and then have a battery storage bylaw if that I mean could a I don't know if we can have a subcommittee of two I mean does it make sense maybe working with with one staff to look at and I don't know how you know could we just kind of pull out what would be the rigs and what would be the byog come back to the group and start looking at it that way if that would be easier to kind of wrap our hands around I'm going to look at Christine breast since much of that would come to her her desk um I think it would be relatively easy to pull out things that are regulatory um but that's not the only thing that makes this really long another aspect that makes it really long is that um people who were in The Solar byw working group felt very strongly that they needed to um come up with um kind of an inoculation for the bylaw from challenges and um if we said anything about um certain you know ways that solar could occur on farmland or Forest we needed to have um fairly lengthy strong statements about why we value farmland and Forest and why we want to protect it so a lot of the beginning of this bylaw is you know that type of material it's like a defensive um language in case someone were to come along and say well you know you can't regulate um solar on farmland well already in the front we've put in all these reasons why we value farmland and so that is supposed to be protective of our regulations um so yes there are a lot of things in here that are regulatory but there is also a lot of defensive language to keep this bof from being subject to being um overturned or uh thrown out as a result of being too strict so um that's just one thing thank you uh I'll go to Dave and then Stephanie yeah very briefly I just wanted to Echo Mandy's concern I I really I agree that I am concerned that putting out something at 20 plus pages that this group already is seeing need some work I guess I'm I'm just questioning the wisdom our Collective wisdom of putting it out there to the concom water supply protection Board of Health planning board etc for feedback when it you know when in all likelihood they're going to see many of the same things that concern us at this stage so I from an I'm not trying to slow anything down but I actually think it would be more efficient if the CRC working with staff worked work this in committee right here for a while and as we said got it down to the bylaw components separating out the regulatory components before we you know it's like having a draft and sending it out to a whole bunch of people and kind of writing by committee it just worries me that we're going to send this out and it's not ready yet and so we're they're going to those boards and committees are going to spin their wheels a little bit get feedback that maybe we already know we need to work on so I would rather see this group the committee with staff support work it before it goes out so I'm I'm just agreeing with Mandy about her concerns thank you happening thank you um two points I wanted to make one um is that all of that language at the beginning was somewhat under the guidance of Jonathan Murray from K law that in part because if the language was written too restrictively it it was something to reference to identify a community value and again this is where the Community Values piece came in was to identify that in the beginning so I just wanted to um frame where that came from and why that's there so I just wanted to say that and then also um I do agree that um and I felt as we were working on this that it was feeling more like regulations than a bylaw so it would make a I agree with everything that Dave just said and what Mandy Joe's said that it would be so much easier for staff to work on something that was actually a bylaw um and not this kind of mix of bylaw with regulations um I think that would just make a lot more sense because otherwise I feel that there'd be a lot of redlining um and people pulling them out and saying the same things that we're saying so I was going to ask I was going to ask if if staff and I've heard I've heard now a couple people say that maybe the CRC should work on this pair it down and and send it back to the staff for working on um I was going to actually switch that around and ask if staff was interested and and had time to actually do that since you are the ones with the expertise in many of the topics and categories that we're talking about I I do I do understand completely um the concern about sending something out that's that's bulky and and not not paired down I mean it's it's it's been packed with as much stuff as was assembled by the working group things that may or may not actually end up in an actual bylaw um and I and I totally get that you don't necessarily want to send that off to concom or planning board in this shape um on the other hand it feels important to get some input from these groups um so that we have knowledge of what to um what to keep in the packing and what to and what to unpack and and discard um just quickly though the the other thing I was thinking about the the the topic such as Community Values um it's it's interesting to me that that it was felt that it would be useful in an actual bylaw I don't know that I've ever seen bylaws with that kind of language in it that it's the kind of thing that I guess I would feel would go in a report even though once something's submitted and and approved proved it's like you never you never marry those two things back up again you never marry the report with the with the bylaw but but I but I think it it seems that that's kind of where you would handle that sort of material Pat thank you I think there's a lot of good stuff in here in this uh bylaw um this mesh of bylaw and Regulation and like you Pam I'd like to see uh it Echo or in a sense duplicate what we've done for rental res registration where there's the bylaw and there are the RS I don't think we should just pull the RS out and not deal with them um and I like Jennifer's idea of a subcommittee of this committee uh meeting uh to to work on this somewhat and and whether or not we could have that subcommittee of two people work with one of the staff to do this um and some way so it doesn't take everybody all of the time Andy uh I'm going to remind us as a CRC that if we formally create a subcommittee or any type of informal committee where we're saying assigning people to go work on something and work together it is a public body that must notice public meetings and meet in public and if there are only two those individuals can never talk on their own together about the bylaw not in a public meeting so I think the most efficient would be and again this is why I caution I'd like to wait until for for assigning anything or saying anything formally until after tomorrow when we get a better idea of where the whole council is on priorities for the manager and staff time um but that it would be staff it would be most efficient for staff to bring drafts back to CRC for discussion the other thing I wanted to say about regulations I think Christine hinted on that unlike rental registration that is in a general bylaw that we were creating and assigning who gets to do regulations for zoning bylaws have already assigned who does regulations to implement zoning bylaws and it is not the council it is each individual body the zba and the planning board and so I would be very cautious and hesitant as a counselor to be drafting regulations that the council does not have any right to pass um that does not mean we could urge each board to adopt appropriate regulations to implement any solar bylaw we might adopt but I would be hesitant to as a council spend a as a committee of the council spend a lot of time on the regulations when the council has no authority to adopt those regulations Jennifer and I guess I withdraw my suggestion to separate out the bylaw then they I mean the regulations have to stay in the bylaw because that's the only way we can pass them so there goes that would have saved me a lot of saved us a lot of time but we can consolidate them Etc yeah so on that note though Mandy if if if regulations were were built uh to doesn't mean that the council necessarily has to adopt them obviously so it would be something that could be offered up to uh The Entity that would be enforcing it zba and let them mul it over and adopt it themselves Andy I think it would be Pres presumptuous of us to create regulations and hand that to a body that has already adopted regulations for their governing without asking them first whether they would like us to do so um because maybe they want to do it on their own um right maybe they would take our help but I would be hesitant as a Committee Member to do anything like that before asking that body if they wanted us to do that and you still need the solar bylaw first um and so if we're going to do this the time our time should be spent on the bylaw not on the regulations and I would fight a lot back and say it's inappropriate to put regulations in a bylaw jener okay so for my own edification I probably need to read through and become clear on what is a regul you know what in this substantively is a regulation versus the bylaw because it sounds like we want to have we would want to have as much in here as we think is important since we you know we can't assume that oh this is you know let's leave out these regulations now because the um permit granting Authority may or may not want to adopt those regulations so we better have in our bylaw everything we we think needs to be there Christine um I would like to um have an opportunity to meet with one member of this group to get a sense of what um might be considered regulations versus bylaw and I would invite Mandy to meet with me to talk about that if that would be appropriate for the rest of you if you would agree to that Mandy are you willing knowing that it's a high priority I wouldn't agree with the high priority until tomorrow when we see what the whole 13 counselors say um but um no I I think Christine knows that I am always willing to meet with the planning department about zoning and this is a zoning by law um whether or not on on whatever part of zoning um that that if if if Christine or anyone in the department reaches out and asks to meet to discuss I'm always willing to do so may I just say something I think that the way you know there's kind of like a an invisible wall between staff and council members so I think that having an agreement from this committee that Mandy could meet with me would go a long way to kind of piercing that wall rather than having me just call Mandy up one day and say Hey Mandy you want to come over and meet about this B so U Mandy I know wants to hear from The Retreat what the results of that are about the priorities but then I think you know she's got a really good sense of the difference between a bylaw and a regulation and could help us to sort through that and you know help to pair this thing down so with your blessing after tomorrow night um if this is still a priority I would be I would be happy happy to meet with Mandy to do that um but it would I feel like it would need to have the blessing of this group then let's take a straw poll how many people support Mandy sitting down to hold on I I just want I don't know whether Dave was going to say the same thing I worry about a formal blessing creates a subcommittee just one I don't know and we don't have a Ina here to help us with that that that's why I worded my response how I worded it because I'm I I don't want this committee to an um accidentally create a subcommittee that puts us in violation of open meeting law I'm G to take a hand vote if no wait Dave is trying to raise his hand you're muted you yeah I guess I'm just wondering I mean this is not a long-term assignment this is really kind of one meeting so I guess the formality of this it seems just too formal to me I don't think we I would recommend you don't need a vote or anything to really say this is one meeting for Chris and Mandy to spend an hour together and and tease a part you know uh the the 20 some odd pages and and really kind of start to get some categories of what falls in bylaw what what Falls maybe in regulation and then are there areas of question so I'm just cautioning to say let's not make it too formal that wasn't the reason I was raising my hand but I'll I'll turn it back over to you Pam if you could recognize me in a moment I'll recognize you again I was going to this was sort of a tongue and cheek you know a show of hands saying we all support this happening that gives Chris some cover so if someone scolds her for for going directly and talking to counselors we we encouraged it at her request to speed up the process and make it more efficient we gave her our blessing so I think I think you've been blessed David your your hand is up yeah a couple of things I just wanted to add not withstanding the discussion tomorrow night and I actually I think tomorrow night at the treat is important but I think there's going to be a lot of discussions like this among and between the council members and the manager as to how many things you know we we would like as a community to get moving accomplished completed by the end of this year because it's really focused on the town manager's goals between now and 12 3124 which isn't very long from now um but notwithstanding that conversation um two things I wanted to say I think there's also a discussion to be had among this group what are crc's priorities you know because you will see on the town manager's list other things that you all other things that will likely come to you and through you um zoning related to uh higher density in Village centers uh uh you know perhaps on East Village Center or University Drive as the planning board is is talking about so I think that's part of the equation it's not just what does Town staff have the bandwidth for but it's also what you all have the bandwidth for the other thing I think just to add to the the equation tomorrow night is I think there are ways to work on things at a pace so we might Pace ourselves differently for one zoning uh uh one zoning process versus another and that's where the prioritization so um for instance you know I would look at these and say well I know things we're going to talk about tomorrow night one is the solar bylaw U zoning the other is um just as I mentioned uh density uh say an overlay District on University Drive that the planning board has been talking about I see both of those as as important for the town to work on but maybe our pacing is different with one than the other and we're working on them simultaneously but it may not be every two weeks that you meet with Stephanie and and Chris or Rob and Nate Malloy or however this shakes out so I I would just ask you to think about that pacing for staff but also for yourselves um so those were the two things I wanted to just put out there I don't think these things have to be mutual exclus exclusive we may say um some of this you know clearly might not get done in 2024 it's going to bleed into 25 in some way shape or form so appreciate that thank you any other comments so we have a we have a very tentative and very limited scope looking forward here uh what we have agreed so far is simply that there would at least be a um a discussion to to identify those pieces that might be regulation versus bylaw um there is a great deal of information in our packet that has been provided um at some point as we go forward I think it would be then important to think pretty pretty substant pretty substantial input from certainly Town staff and I'm thinking specifically um planning sustainability fire uh concom or wet excuse me Wetlands administrator that these are folks that whatever package comes out of this um we will ought to have a say in in some of the the detailing of it and I don't want to ask for that assistance at this point because there doesn't seem to be clear consensus that that that's the route that we should take right now um any other thoughts on structuring without I I'll come to Chris in just a second without um uh dropping this and and letting it lag for too long Chris I just wanted to suggest that you also when you get back together again to talk about the solar byw that you have a conversation about um your priorities as far as um encouraging solar installations um in support of action against climate change versus um your position on um protecting the environment and I think you know it's not either or but it's very hard to have a discussion when you know some people in the group are very adamantly in support of the more solar the better put it wherever it can go you know this is really important versus we don't want to cut forests or Farms or put it anywhere except in a you know a former um gravel pit or someplace so I think you should have that discussion about you know what are your um values as far as these things go because it will influence um the outcome of this you know is are you trying to regulate and limit solar power um like some cities and towns do or are you trying to encourage it um as a countermeasure to climate change thank you good food for thought Pat you have your hand up thank you uh I want to encourage solar um I'm not about ending solar or uh I am concerned that we that a lot not enough attention has been spent by this group not not CRC but the solar bylaw working group on um o alternatives to putting it in Forest Etc um and if you look at any of the state mandates if you look at the decarbonization road map they talk about the importance of sequestration so and I'm not even saying we shouldn't put some in some in Forest so uh don't hear that people like to hear that but what I am saying is that we as this group and this bylaw should also be addressing issues about um where where we can additionally put solar installation uh and how we would fund that how we can make it accessible to as many people in town as possible uh and really begin to look at zoning even though the planning board doesn't like anybody except themselves to deal with zoning uh we need to look at density and uh how you know clustering development and stuff like that and some of that has been looked at but we really need to look at how we build what we do we zone for duplexes and triplexes which take up less land which uh use less materials that are easy to heat and etc etc and that's something that the planning board and the planning department have been incredibly resistant to but we need so we need this is a this is not this is so interconnected and I I I really we really need to look at other aspects that the committee has not paid attention to to see what kind of Regulation or what we can do to support um other kinds of um Solar Development whether or not anything that is built has to have canopies over their parking lots things like that we need to look at that too and it's a shame that the emphasis stayed where it was in this group as it could have been much broader and and richer whine and complain sorry sorry about that but you're not complaining um interestingly it occurs to me that that um Parcels of land that are good for Housing Development are also good for Solar Development and at that at some point we we will end up having to choose um perhaps between those um or or or make sure as as you just said that it's layered on top of whatever gets built if you're going to if you're going to cover the the land with impervious then add the solar to it to capture both so um it feels like we' sort of run this conversation down and uh I don't like leaving it at this point because I I feel like we I wanted to come out of this with sort of a strategy to to get in information flowing and moving um we will have a meeting tomorrow night and I would plan then as far as a um as far as a next agenda preview Beyond April 2 which is now the zba interviews and deliberation um I think we need to come back with some some consideration of um how we want to move forward on this and do a lot of reading that's your homework assignment Jennifer and um councelor hanii and Chris brastop will probably have had their conversation I hope that would be great by the next meeting with some which hold on the next meeting is April 9th April 9th Mandy will you be at that meeting do you think if not we would put it put it to a different well we wouldn't meet again until April 30th so it be it would be it would be helpful to have some feedback I am unsure whether I'll be at the ninth right now okay that's fair enough fair enough Dave yes ma'am so yeah I was going to suggest I mean that meeting um based on Mandy schedule and Chris's they can connect I think you and I can connect as staff leaz on working with the chair can connect with you after tomorrow night's meeting maybe not tomorrow night but in the days following tomorrow um to see the outcome of that discussion and then you know we could chart a path forward with regard to your next agenda um and we could incorporate what Chris and Mandy work on and then you know form an agenda whether it be on the 9th or the meeting after that you know what what is the path forward for this and how kind of aggressively or how actively the the the council and CRC with staff support are going to take it on so I think we have a little time actually after the retreat to figure that out yeah we caning we can bring you can bring the feedback you and other counselors from The Retreat to that meeting as well to share with the public y y so another another a future topic another um CRC future agenda item is in fact to bring up the housing productive production plan and to start thinking about that are there other tools that um that we want to pursue um to help see some of that come to fruition um so we certainly aren't lacking for things but but this is clearly front and foremost at the moment p yeah I just wanted to say that I know that Martha Hanner would be happy to speak with people but I think you know there there are what seven or eight me members of that committee and I have a feeling uh that they would be willing to talk with individual counselors um about issue you know as you're reading and as things come up uh it would be important and possibly to reach out to them informally uh as individual counsel that's a great idea just to get get your own heads organized on how they what they were thinking as they developed it yeah good idea idea um I have no announcements I have no minutes and I have no items that were uh anticipated 48 hours in advance is there anything else anyone wants to add before we agree to adjourn Jennifer no just to remember that we're meeting again a week from tonight I I'll send out a reminder Athena will yeah uh that brings up a point Dave do you know if um if you are available on the second to host that meeting or is that something that maybe we it's not going to be a public meeting it's it's it there's no I mean people can attend but there's no public um comment period is that something that could be set up and one of us could manage and host it yeah will you and I should talk later this week I did speak briefly with Athena about it and and I think she volunteered me so we'll we'll work on we'll work on on that for uh for the for what is that that's a Tuesday right is a Tuesday Tuesday yeah yeah we'll work on that it's likely to be a good hour hour and a half to two can staff set us up and then get off that I wondered yeah yeah M I had one other question I know you took public comment at the beginning I didn't know whether based on the conversation you've had whether you would take any more tonight or or not I'm willing absolutely if folks is there anyone in the audience that uh is interested in weighing in on this subject you have seven attendees I'm not seeing any hands go up I think this is just an opener for us and um we will certainly have more so I would I would suggest if people are trying to follow this that you look at the um the CRC agendas and I'll try to get those agendas posted as early as I can hopefully a week ahead of time so that you have a sense of what's actually on that agenda and can participate that way thank you yeah it it also seems like we need to pay attention to what's happening in the Attorney General's office around this issue that going to be critical for our work yeah yeah thank you we have and we have Mandy watching that she's our she's our ears on the ground if that's the phrase okay folks I think I think we've Run It To The Ground um I would like to adjourn the meeting it is at 8:02 thank you and thank you so much Stephan oh hold on Jennifer you have to unmute do we have to vote now to adjourn oh God no now just the council does I think the council will from now on yes but the Committees don't okay never mind just say without objection and pause we are a turn not objection PA sorry we are that that's a formality but but I think the chair can adjourn at any time right sorry good night good night yeah thanks Rea thank you Stephanie I'll I'll text you I'll text you okay